From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:42:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 02:47:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6d3ef3e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:46:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <007801bfcb4c$e98ba7a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 31, 0 06:04:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6b5f69a6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:42:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 02:47:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6d3ef3e1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:46:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <007801bfcb4c$e98ba7a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 31, 0 06:04:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6b5f69a6/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 00:37:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Updated Dilog contact information Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> >Delivered-To: cmcmanis@mcmanis.com >From: Jack Olson >To: "'cmcmanis@mcmanis.com'" >Subject: FW: DLI MOVE >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:27:09 -0700 > > > >---------- >From: Jack Olsen >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 11:35 AM >To: Jack Olsen >Subject: DLI MOVE > > >WHAT'S HAPPENING >AT DLI/DILOG? > > >If you've tried to reach us in the last couple of months, you probably >sense that there is something going on. Well you're right. The facility >that we have been occupying in Irvine for the last eight years was sold to >a church. So we had to relocate. > >We found the perfect site only 3 miles away in the city of Tustin and >proceeded to make what was supposed to be a seamless move to our >new digs the first week in March. Well, it wasn't so seamless. The first >problem was that even though we are close to the old place, the new one >was in a different area code, so we had to change telephone and fax >numbers. > >OK, the telephone company will take care of referrals from the old to >the new number. However, a good amount of our communications with >our customers was via email. Now you have to understand our internal >network and connections. We have a Novel system for file, print, email >and Internet access. the Novel is connected to a Linux firewall Internet >gateway. The Linux accesses the Internet every 15 minutes during the >day to retrieve and send email for the company, then delivers it to our >desk with Microsoft exchange. Nice working system. > >No problem. Just disconnect the parts at the old place, and reconnect at >the new, plug into the wall and run. Right? - - Wrong. The Novel >systems disk decided that it didn't like the climate at it's new home and >proceeded to show its displeasure with a series of strange metal against >metal sounds. No problem, we have a Libra library backup system and >are fully backed up. Put on the new disk and restore the Novel system. >Well, the Libra is one of the first ever made and has been chugging >away everyday since we originally installed it. The DAT drive went on >strike and had to be replaced. Once that was done we found out how >important it is to remember where one packs the backup tape set. > >OK its now late March, the Novel server is up and running, but the >building Ethernet wiring is not correct. Emails are being received >sporadically. Bob gets the building wiring squared away and all is >looking well when we receive a registered letter from Concentric, our >Internet service provider telling us that they are discontinuing our dial- >up account on Apr. 24. > >Time to enter the 21st century - we proceed to order an enhanced DSL >service. They can't install until May 1. Call Concentric and see if they >will stretch our disconnect date until then. Officially they cannot agree >to do this. Unofficially it is done - Thank You Concentric. On May 1, >our DSL is installed - but we are given the wrong network connection >card to the Linux system. Got the correct card - DSL works - WOW - >real time mail delivery. > >So now we're here in our new facility with a fully operational LAN and >Internet. > >If you had some trouble reaching us, we apologize. We are here for you >and are now fully accessible via phone - at our new number, fax - at our >new number, or email and web page at the same number. > >Phone 714-508-1040, fax 714-508-1050, >email info@dilog.com, www.dilog.com. > >So remember, same great products for Qbus and Unibus, - > >Same support, - > >New digs. - > >Give us a call. > >Sincerely, > >The DLI crew > From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 00:05:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:19 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Responding to an older message... On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > However, I've just thought of a better example : I once saw a card for an > Apple ][ containing a 1771 and associated components (and probably a > ROM). It linked to an external box containing 2 8" drives. The official > purpose was to allow an Apple with a Z80 Softcard to read standard SSSD > CP/M disks. But I am _sure_ it could have been used from Apple DOS given > the right software. > > Which means the archive format would have to allow for : > > Apple ][, 16 sector 5.25" GCR-encoded disk > and > Apple ][, 26 sector, 8", FM encoded disk. > > It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should > be able to handle _anything_. In any case, I would think that 256 > sub-formats for each machine would be plenty, which means this adds _1 > byte_ to the archive size. Not really a problem IMHO. I suppose a sub-format byte wouldn't hurt. What I don't like about it is that it will require that someone be maintaining a database of all the sub-formats. But I guess since we have a machine identifier and this will have to be maintained as well, a sub-format byte is not too demanding. Of course, there will have to be a central person who is responsible for receiving input for new machine and sub-format types, updating the database with the new computer types and sub-format types, and disseminating this from a website. This is something that can be hosted from the VCF server. The header could also include a text description entered in by the archiver that could describe anything special about the archive. In fact, I envision the archiving program having a section where the archiver inputs his/her name and e-mail address, which will get encoded along with the archive. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 00:30:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's the next iteration of our standard in progress. I've decided to split the header into two separate ones--a Disk Descriptor Header and a Track Descriptor Header--as the discussion has been moving us towards. Desk Descriptor Header 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) 4. Encoding type (1 byte) 5. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] Optional: 6. Archiver Name (24 bytes) 7. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) 8. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) 9. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) A. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) Maximum size: 598 bytes [1] If applicable A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall description of the track: Track Descriptor Header 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Size: 12 bytes [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-7 are ignored. [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. As we can see, so far the addition of the headers adds no significant size to the archive. Comments? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 02:37:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: "Mark Gregory" "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 17:27) References: <01d901bfcb57$d4f9d7c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <10006010837.ZM13597@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 17:27, Mark Gregory wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > >Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* > >lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? > If you want increase your data storage capacity, you could colour code the > string, too. > > Everything old is new again ... we've just re-invented the Inca quipu, a > few centuries on. I know. Aside from jibes at those who so vehemently insist that there should be one particular form of archive, I'm not sure anyone really knows how to read quipus, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 03:13:10 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 22:05) References: Message-ID: <10006010913.ZM13626@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 22:05, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Responding to an older message... > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: [...] > > Which means the archive format would have to allow for : [...] > > It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should > > be able to handle _anything_. Wel, I agree with that, so far as it's possible. > I suppose a sub-format byte wouldn't hurt. What I don't like about it is > that it will require that someone be maintaining a database of all the > sub-formats. But I guess since we have a machine identifier and this will > have to be maintained as well, a sub-format byte is not too demanding. > Of course, there will have to be a central person who is responsible for > receiving input for new machine and sub-format types, updating the > database with the new computer types and sub-format types, and > disseminating this from a website. That's part of the reason I think an encoded format is a bad idea. Hans' suggestion of a tagged format using XML (or something else) is much better. It allows for decoding without referring to a central archive, and it's much more flexible and extensible. Sure, it takes more space, but is that a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly later mail): { Disk Descriptor Header, containing: Host computer type string "Hard"/"soft" sector flag Number of tracks (1 byte) Disk drive RPM ... { Track Descriptor Header, containing: Track number (with fraction) Track format "logical"/"raw" Track size in bytes Sectors in this track (1 byte) Offset to next Track Descriptor Header ... { Sector header descriptor, containing: Sector header format FM/MFM/GCR/... Sector data format FM/MFM/GCR/... [1] Sector number as encoded on the original disk Track number as encoded on original disk Head number as encoded on original disk Physical sector number Sector size ... { sector data (binary, hex-coded, whatever) } { Sector header descriptor } { sector data } } } The nesting tagging allows you to specify things like RX02 floppies, where the headers are FM but the data is MFM. It also allows you to specify different sector sizes on different tracks, or data written in the headers that doesn't match physical track/sector/side on the original. It also means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same time, or someone rolled their own. I've seen too many data formats where the decoding information was unavailable, or was hard to get, or was "location unknown at this time", or the prospective user simply didn't now where to look. If the information is in the archive itself, anyone can work out what do do with it, any time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 04:24:46 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: New Vintage Computer Festival Website! Message-ID: The new Vintage Computer Festival website is now up. http://www.vintage.org Yes, there are still some broken links (none of the foreign language links work for instance...translators needed) but these will be fixed shortly. I invite anyone and everyone to submit articles for publication on the VCF website on any topic having to do with vintage computers and computer history. A link to the article will appear on the home page guaranteeing you exposure. Much thanks goes to Hans Franke for developing the new design! VCF 4.0 dates should be announced within a week or so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 04:44:32 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010837.ZM13597@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I know. Aside from jibes at those who so vehemently insist that there > should be one particular form of archive, I'm not sure anyone really knows > how to read quipus, though. Actually, I do. I did a paper on the Quipu for a history course I took in Peru in the summer of '99 and it's been a low-bandwidth pet research project of mine ever since. I gave a talk based on my Quipu paper at VCF Europa and exhibited the Quipu I constructed while in Peru. The quipu structure was decoded during the first quarter of this century by Leland Locke. His book _The Ancient Quipu_ (1923) explains how the data on the Quipu is encoded. A husband & wife team, Marcia & Robert Ascher, published _Code of the Quipu_ in 1981 which expands on Locke's work. Numbers are encoded on the strings in decimal (base 10) format. No knots represent zero (that the Inca's understood the concept of zero is significant). The color of the strings was also significant, most likely representing categories of data. The problem is that no one knows just what the numbers represent on the quipus known to exist since the context has long been lost and the dumb Conquistadors basically destroyed any evidence of the Inca civilization that might have shed some light on it. I could go into way more detail but right now I am extremely tired so if anyone is truly interested I will be happy to explain more, and also shoot you a copy of the paper I did which is a good overview. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 07:18:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Papertape and Mylar variant Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD7B@TEGNTSERVER> > > Right-o... teletypes with the reader/punch used rolls of paper tape. > > I have a copy of DEC Monopoly on papertape that I punched myself, as > > well as a copy of Intel's INTERP-80 (8080a simulator) and a > Star Trek > > game called BIGMES (from an HP 2000). > > What machine did INTERP-80 run on? Was it written in BASIC? No, it was written in Fortan-IV. I ported it from its original generic source code to run on the CDC6600 under Kronos 2.1, a DEC-10 running TOPS-10, and lastly, a Prime P400 running Primos. > I'm currently writing a simulation of the hardware that HP 2000 TSB ran > on (a pair of HP 21xx minicomputers with a pair of bidirectional parallel > interfaces between them). I've typed in most of the source code to > 2000C' from a printed listing, and have written an assembler in Perl. I must say, that's pretty cool. I used to have some other HP2000 programs, but the only one I found the other day was a listing that I'd printed on a Silent 700 terminal. Environmental effects have darkened the thermal paper to make it nearly unreadable. A bit of squinting for a day or two might surmount that problem. > I'd be interested in getting copies of those paper tapes, and anything > else you might have that could be run on a 2000. Naturally I'm willing > to pay copying and postage costs. As I consider the paper tapes priceless, you'd have to be willing to put up a serious chunk of change in escrow in case anything happened to them. Better that you wait for me stage them to a newer format. > I'll make accounts on the simulated 2000 available once it's running. If you need BASIC programs to run on your simulator, keep a close watch on E-Bay for books of BASIC games. I saw David Ahl's book 101 BAsic Games the other day; that's for DEC-10 BASIC, but I recall there were some books on HP BASIC back way back when, so one of those books will doubtlessly surface. Another resource for HP 2000 programs would be old issues of Creative Computing (another wonderful magazine killed by the evil Ziff-Davis empire). Good luck; I'll file your message to me in my hobby folder so that I'll have your e-mail address, and once I finally get BIGMES on disk, I'll let you know. -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 08:24:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric/Posting Machine (Was RE: Atari 800 keyboard s) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD7E@TEGNTSERVER> > How much do you want for it, and where is it? It sounds neat. I dunno... lemme think about it. Shipping is likely to be expensive! -dq From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 1 08:32:50 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <02c201bfcb7b$b1a59ce0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: I'm going to try to put up a picture on our site as soon as I can put together some text to go with it. I understand they were very popular with the phone companies. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Yes, I have the additional software you mentioned. > Almost think the machine was ahead of it's time, very swank looking, to well > made (like a tank) and to expensive. Such is often life of good > ideas/creations. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 9:10 PM > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > As I recall, ours has special software, a word processor, a comm > > programme, and something else - a database? We also have Multiplan and > > perhaps Lotus floating around. I think it is one of the nicest of the > > early portables. > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying > case. > > > Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, > Multiplan > > > & Rbase. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's > boot8ing, > > > > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > > > > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works > fine, > > > > even has the carrying case. > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Merle - > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little > > > creation. > > > > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no > image? > > > What > > > > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine > on? > > > > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > > > To: > > > > > Cc: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice > > > little > > > > > > machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS > machine > > > > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it > was > > > > > designed > > > > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in > > > about > > > > > 1983 > > > > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company > called > > > > > Comterm. > > > > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no > > > image > > > > > is > > > > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service > info > > > > > and/or > > > > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 09:01:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD84@TEGNTSERVER> > I'm one of the people who still does use paper tape for backup. Not for Any chance you have a spare reader you'd be willing to load? I'd be willing to put up a security desposit for its safe return... -dq p.s. Oh, it's 8-level paper tape, not 5-level (just making sure)... From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 1 09:57:59 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Vax-11 Instruction Set Videos References: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <393679F7.77B16644@rain.org> This is a set of thirteen 3/4" tapes that cover the Vax-11 Instruction Set. They are titled: Instruction Formats & Addressing Modes Lesson 1, Lessons 2 & 3 Integer, Logical, & Branch Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 & 4 Floating Point Instructions Variable Bit Field Instructions Stack & Address Instructions Procedure & Subroutine Instructions Character String Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, lessons 3 & 4 Special Instructions Decimal String Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 - 5 I am selling these for John as he is doing what I should be doing: emptying the house :).Again, these are on 3/4" tape, NOT VHS. $300 for the set + shipping for about 27 pounds or so. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 12:35:39 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Track Descriptor Header > > 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] > 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] > 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) Insert "Sector Interleave" (will 1 byte suffice = 2 4-bit values?) > 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) > 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) > 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) > 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Special raw disk bytes such as synchronization bytes (as on the Apple ][) will have to be denoted in some fashion. But how? There were anywhere from 8 to 16 8-bit sync bytes (having the value 255) found at the beginning of each track and before each sector that contained two additional zero bits at the end (so they looked like 1111111100). How will these get stored? Perhaps a map could be included with raw track data to specify sync bytes. The map would be a series of bits, each bit corresponding to a byte in the raw track image, a 1 bit meaning the byte is a sync byte and a 0 meaning normal. The bits can be packed into bytes so that a track of 5,472 bytes (roughly the theoretical size of a raw 16-sector Apple ][ disk track) would take 684 additional bytes. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 13:10:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010913.ZM13626@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That's part of the reason I think an encoded format is a bad idea. Hans' > suggestion of a tagged format using XML (or something else) is much better. > It allows for decoding without referring to a central archive, and it's > much more flexible and extensible. Sure, it takes more space, but is that But a lot more volumnious. But this is just my prejudice speaking. Even though I find HTML useful, I hate it. > a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the > sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd > envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly > later mail): I don't like the idea of storing the actual sector data as text though. A single floppy disk could turn into a megabyte or more. I guess in this day and age it doesn't matter much anymore but when I was growing up you had to make every byte count, and I know more than 95% of us here can relate to that. > The nesting tagging allows you to specify things like RX02 floppies, where > the headers are FM but the data is MFM. It also allows you to specify Weird. This is something new to me. But do we really need a markup language to describe this? Instead we can add a Sector Descriptor Header (we were heading in this direction anyway) and have a byte to describe the sector header format and the sector data format for each sector. > different sector sizes on different tracks, or data written in the headers > that doesn't match physical track/sector/side on the original. It also > means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise > inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of > inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same > time, or someone rolled their own. I agree with that. Human readability is definitely a compelling advantage as is the elimination of the need for a centralized database of system descriptions. Well, this is certainly something to consider. A hard-coded format or a markup format? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 13:12:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more thing I forgot to add... On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Track Descriptor Header > > > > 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] > > 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] > > 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) > > Insert "Sector Interleave" (will 1 byte suffice = 2 4-bit values?) > > > 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) > > 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) > > 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) > > 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 15:34:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they were actually recorded. Also, re having a field that denotes the source machine, this seems dangerous. What if the disk has dual directories and is supposed to work on more than one dir structure? What if it's a generic format that works on lots of different machines (like FAT or RT-11, these disks have become de facto interchange standards and often exist w/o ever touching the machines for whom that's a native format)? Also, even if there is a source architecture specifier, I'd rather see this as a short ASCII string rather than a magic number, so that we won't need a central authority to assign the numbers, in most cases it's obvious what short string uniquely identifies the architecture (like with SCSI vendor and device IDs). In any case, this is more information than *real* floppies have! All you (i.e. the computer) need to know in any given instance, is whether this disk is in *your* format, and you'll find that out when you try to read it. Just like a real floppy. The complexity seems to be rapidly getting out of hand, and I wonder whether this is solving problems that don't really come up that often? Having something which treats floppies as a black box, like Teledisk, is handy in some circumstances, but I already dislike Teledisk because it gets you in the silly situation of being unable to reproduce the disk even on the machine for which it is intended. In this regard, an open standard is a big step up from Teledisk, but now that means that in order to reproduce a floppy on its native machine, you have to grab the spec and write a big disk copier utility for that machine, which knows how to parse text tags (please tell me I misunderstood that part) and double-check header formats to make sure they're really vanilla. All instead of simply writing the contiguous binary data out in the native format. I think a nice compromise might be to represent each floppy disk with two files, one of which contains all the data as a straight binary image in whatever's the most sensible order for that machine, which would be convenient for use on the original machine (not to mention emulators), and the other one contains all the fancy headers and sector descriptors, with pointers into the binary image. That would make the images easy to move to/from real disks on the original machine, they'd be easy to manipulate with file system utilities (or something like the Linux loopback device), and you could use the same descriptor file with an arbitrary number of binary image files so there'd be less work involved in cooking up the image files, and they'd use a lot less disk space. The only down side I can think of is how to make sure the matching descriptor file and image file don't get separated from one another. John Wilson D Bit From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Jun 1 15:33:32 2000 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Hi All, One the nice things about this list is the variety of first hand experience that can be called upon to clear up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. Up for review: 1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything about the people that helped design these computers? 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under UV light for an extended period until the memory cells were still light sensitive but would no long hold a charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. 3. This has probably been discussed here before, but .... I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took. 4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair 8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. (Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to get married at the end of April.) Comments welcome, I would like to deallocate the space for the ones that have no real basis in fact. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 15:04:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 10:05:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/97da7e24/attachment.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 1 15:59:33 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells >were still light sensitive but would no long hold a >charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, >you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into >memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had >heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I can't speak for the EPROM legend, having never heard it, but I do know some folks that did this with DRAM. Basically, they took the top off a ceramic DRAM (IIRC, it was a 16Kx1; this was some time ago) and arranged for an image to be focussed on the DRAM. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 1 16:05:48 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Doug Coward To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 2:41 PM Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? >Hi All, > One the nice things about this list is the variety of >first hand experience that can be called upon to clear >up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging >around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. > >Up for review: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? I've never heard of the Mindset PC, but the Amiga story is very nicely told at The Amiga Interactive Guide, at www.amiga.emugaming.com . Follow the Features link, and see "Amiga History" and "The Amiga Corporation 1982-84". Although a team of designers was involved, the person generally credited as "the father of the Amiga" is the late Jay Miner, who came from Atari Corp. via Xymos. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:08:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of the diskette and vice versa. > Also, re having a field that denotes the source machine, this seems > dangerous. What if the disk has dual directories and is supposed to > work on more than one dir structure? What if it's a generic format > that works on lots of different machines (like FAT or RT-11, these > disks have become de facto interchange standards and often exist w/o > ever touching the machines for whom that's a native format)? Also, Then the machine descriptor would reflect the actual machine that the software was designed to run on. Providing I understand what you are saying, I don't see a problem here. > even if there is a source architecture specifier, I'd rather see this > as a short ASCII string rather than a magic number, so that we won't > need a central authority to assign the numbers, in most cases it's I don't like that because it allows for too much variation in the naming convention. I suppose we can include a database of pre-defined Computer Type strings in the archive creation software but still allow the archiver to type in his/her own to allow for new computers. The Computer Typer strings can be contained in a textfile that can be updated regularly and downloaded from the homepage for the project. > obvious what short string uniquely identifies the architecture (like > with SCSI vendor and device IDs). That works because each SCSI vendor creates one string that they use. If we have multiple people creating their own strings for computer names then it gets messy. Something to ponder though... > In any case, this is more information than *real* floppies have! All you > (i.e. the computer) need to know in any given instance, is whether this disk > is in *your* format, and you'll find that out when you try to read it. Just > like a real floppy. This is not just for the computer's sake but for the humans who are archiving it as well. We need to know what this disk is (hmmm, need to add a Title string) rather than have to make silly guesses. Besides, diskettes DO have this information, generally on the label :) > The complexity seems to be rapidly getting out of hand, and I wonder > whether this is solving problems that don't really come up that often? I don't think it's getting out of hand at all. I see a clear end to the current design process. I'd hate to make a "standard" that doesn't address all the various needs of every different floppy format and then end up having to extend the standard later or not have it adopted due to it's limited usefulness. We have the ability right now to think, argue, recommend, specify and commit and so we might as well try to do it as rightly as possible. > Having something which treats floppies as a black box, like Teledisk, is > handy in some circumstances, but I already dislike Teledisk because it gets > you in the silly situation of being unable to reproduce the disk even on > the machine for which it is intended. In this regard, an open standard is Well, we are trying to create an archive standard that does allow a physical disk to be re-created from an archive. > a big step up from Teledisk, but now that means that in order to reproduce > a floppy on its native machine, you have to grab the spec and write a big > disk copier utility for that machine, which knows how to parse text tags > (please tell me I misunderstood that part) and double-check header formats > to make sure they're really vanilla. All instead of simply writing the > contiguous binary data out in the native format. What I envision is that the software component on the target machine will only require the following abilities: a) read floppy in logical or raw format b) write floppy in logical or raw format c) send/receive archive data over a serial or parallel port I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard turns into a big messy markup language. Once this standard is close to complete I intend to develop either a Linux or DOS-based demo archival application as well as the utility software for the Apple ][ to evaluate the workability of the standard before it is committed to. > I think a nice compromise might be to represent each floppy disk with > two files, one of which contains all the data as a straight binary > image in whatever's the most sensible order for that machine, which > would be convenient for use on the original machine (not to mention > emulators), and the other one contains all the fancy headers and > sector descriptors, with pointers into the binary image. That would This is a circular specification. What you need in order to create a "no-nonsense" archive IS the standard we are attempting to define, because every machine will invariably have some wacky formats that won't allow a sensible, straight-forward archive to be made. This needs to be taken into account. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 1 16:13:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000601160727.02531a60@pc> At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, Doug Coward wrote: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? If you have a list of people who worked on Mindset, I'm sure we can compare it to the more-well-known list of people who worked on the Amiga. Did you ever see this rumor in print? Or where did it come from? >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells I remember RAM chip-based cameras, not EPROM. I remember a magazine project for the Apple II. Early Byte, maybe? >4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, >that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just >a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair >8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. This is well-documented... or at least Ed Roberts has maintained this alibi over the years. Supposedly they shipped the first unit to R-E for the cover shot, but it never made it. Cynics say it wasn't ready. I, too, wonder why you'd send a "real" unit for a beauty shot, when the empty case would do the same. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 1 16:04:20 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000601155529.01f27c90@pc> At 12:42 AM 6/1/00 -2300, Tony Duell wrote: >Try to use the laser scanner block from a >laser printer for this, together with a suitable detector). You could >probably enlarge an area from the film, print it onto photographic paper and >scan it with a normal flatbed scanner. Hmm, a few messages back I was wondering if today's low-price LED laser printers had a dense linear array of LEDs that exposed the drum, and that this array could be used to print a matrix to the film. I've mentioned http://www.paperdisk.com/ before, perhaps some would like to revisit this technology. The problem is, laser-print melted plastic "ink" sticks to itself, and to paper, and suffers when the enclosing medium is out-gassing volatiles... I like the ideas about digitizing the stream of raw disk data. I imagine it would be possible to perform some software-based analysis and repair, rendering previously scrogged disks readable. Or perhaps the forensic-style recovery of erased data, reading and averaging adjacent off-center track information. I seem to remember a PDP guy on this list who recovers reel tape data this way, digitizing the raw tracks and processing with software, as opposed to relying on antique hardware methods for decoding the stream. I wish this technology existed for other media, too. I have several hours of out-of-alignment video from a camcorder whose capstans were drifting over the course of months and years. The precious video of my young kids is now unreadable except at random when the position of the heads happens to float into the alignment of when that segment was recorded. - John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 16:19:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >Up for review: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? I believe that would be Jay Miner. >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells >were still light sensitive but would no long hold a >charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, >you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into >memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had >heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. Nope, but you could remove the cover off a Dynamic RAM and do this. It was the basis for the "cyclops" camera. I have a couple of RAMs I did this to (they still work too!) The theory is that the photons knock the charge off the capacitors turning 1 bits into zero bits. The way it was used most effectively was to write all ones, then scan it about 16 times recording the bit pattern each time. Bright light turned bits to zero immediately, less light took longer. The resulting 16 scans could be converted into a 4 bit grey scale image. Check back issues in Byte for the Steve Ciarcia article on this, and later the "OPTICRam" which was a commercialized version. >3. This has probably been discussed here before, but .... >I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy >diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside >edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is >is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first >form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took. Eric Smith has all the skinny on this one. >4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, >that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just >a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair >8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. >(Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it > might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single > sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to > get married at the end of April.) My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus delayed first shipments. --Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 1 16:20:08 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3936D388.CBE7EAF2@mainecoon.com> Doug Coward wrote: > Up for review: > 1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > about the people that helped design these computers? Urg. Kinda. Around 1982 at Atari Corporate Research we had a project to develop a laptop computer designed for games which was 68K based with custom video and audio hardware. Most of this stuff never saw the light of day, but the sound hardware sticks in my mind as something that made it to the point of being a functional prototype. After Atari went nova the rumor was that many of the refugees of the audio effort ended up at Amiga and that many of the video guys ended up at Mindset. I certainly recognized a few of the names on the inside of the A1000 we used to develop the Hurricane as being refugees from Atari, as well as one guy who was a refugee from BTI (of the BTI 5000 and dreaded 8000 fame). -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Jun 1 16:20:51 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Doug Coward wrote: > Hi All, > One the nice things about this list is the variety of > first hand experience that can be called upon to clear > up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging > around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. [snip] > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. In the very early 80's. Steve Ciarcia (Micromint) designed an Apple II 'camera' that used this concept... it had a the chip behind a common c-mount TV lens, an interface board, and software to manage the image, do simple dithering, print the images, etc. The one I owned is now on it's way to Hans Franke... so he might be able to report on it if he gets it up and running. Cheers John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 15:48:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Jun 1, 0 01:33:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/02d155ce/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:32:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601213210.11615.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > No, the trick (as used in SOS, and in the Lisa I/O card ROM) is to > do 1:1 interleave *without8 a track buffer. They directly denibblize > as they're reading the bits from the disk. Sellam Ismail wrote: > I didn't think the ][ was fast enough to do that? That's why I called it a "trick". After all, everyone knows that a 1 MHz 6502 isn't fast enough to do disk control in software at all! :-) Woz's design is a classic example of "thinking outside the box". IIRC, he was quoted somewhere as saying that he didn't previously have any knowledge of the design of disk controllers, so he just designed what he thought would be necessary. Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips as some of them. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 1 16:32:42 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000601173242.20200db6@trailing-edge.com> >I like the ideas about digitizing the stream of raw disk data. >I imagine it would be possible to perform some software-based >analysis and repair, rendering previously scrogged disks readable. >Or perhaps the forensic-style recovery of erased data, reading >and averaging adjacent off-center track information. > >I seem to remember a PDP guy on this list who recovers reel tape >data this way, digitizing the raw tracks and processing with >software, as opposed to relying on antique hardware methods for >decoding the stream. That would've been me, I think :-). It really is straightforward to do today - a PC, a few hundred dollars of investment for the A/D hardware and cabling, an old 9-track or 7-track drive that you can set up to spool forward at a constant rate, and you've got the hardware side done. The analysis software is where the real magic occurs - look up "PRML" in a good engineering or math bookstore and you'll be on the right path. Incorporating the data from non-flaky channels to recover the data in the flaky channel is easy for 1/2" magtapes because of the existence of both longitudinal and horizontal parity bits. The same techniques work for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppies, too. You don't have the luxury of parity channels there, but PRML techniques put you way ahead of traditional data separators. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:34:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: Current iteration: Desk Descriptor Header 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) 4. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] Optional: 5. Archiver Name (24 bytes) 6. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) 7. Disk Title (64 bytes) 8. Publisher (if applicable) (24 bytes) 9. Year of Publication (2 bytes) A. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) B. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) C. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) ***Does it make sense to have separate fields as specified #7-9 or should we rely upon the archivist to include that data in the description? I think so since this is important information that should be forced to be included with the archive. Maximum size: 685 bytes [1] If applicable Note: Encoding type moved to Track Descriptor Header A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall description of the track: Track Descriptor Header 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] 2. Disk Side (1 byte) 3. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] 4. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) 6. Encoding type (1 byte) 7. Sectors in this track (1 byte) 8. Interleave (1 byte) 9. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) A. Bits per byte (1 byte) B. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Size: 15 bytes [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-9 are ignored. [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. I can start to see where the flexibility afforded by a markup language makes sense. I just can't figure out why I am still resisting it though. So, are we on the right track? The wrong track? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:36:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > Although a team of designers was involved, the person generally credited as > "the father of the Amiga" is the late Jay Miner, who came from Atari Corp. > via Xymos. When did Jay Miner pass away? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:38:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> (dcoward@pressstart.com) References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <20000601213800.11665.qmail@brouhaha.com> > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I don't think that would work. I've cooked EPROMs for months without any change in their functioning. More likely, you could marginally program all the bits, or program them solidly then erase until they're marginal. Then outside light would move them across the threshold. However, this would be *extremely* sensitive to temperature and supply voltage. I doubt it could be made even slightly practical. On the other hand, if you pop the top off an old DRAM (made before they started adding opaque passivation layers), they make a servicable imaging element, if you don't mind the gaps between the quadrants (which would also be found in EPROMs). There were actually some products that used this technique, and Micron sold DRAMs packaged for this purpose. From transit at lerctr.org Thu Jun 1 16:39:22 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > From: Doug Coward > > > >Up for review: > >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > >about the people that helped design these computers? > > > I've never heard of the Mindset PC, http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art24.htm From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:39:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601213950.11699.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. Sellam Ismail wrote: > I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of > the diskette and vice versa. I have no idea what you mean by that. The Apple ][ disk format has no concept of "side". There's no field in the address mark for a side designation. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jun 1 16:44:01 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> from Doug Coward at "Jun 1, 2000 01:33:32 pm" Message-ID: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > 4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, > that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just > a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair > 8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. > (Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it > might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single > sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to > get married at the end of April.) > The original Altair prototype was lost while being shipped to Popular Electronics. Thus, the picture on the front cover of the magazine was indeed an empty case. The article contains pictures of the prototype which were taken before it was shipped. Those photos show a computer with no bus, instead the boards were connected using ribbon cable. Ed Roberts came up with a new design for the replacement, which included a bus with room for additional cards, and a 'powerful' 8-amp power supply, installed in an 'Optima' cabinet. Source: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer. -Lawrence LeMay From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 16:56:54 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin>; from mgregory@vantageresearch.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 03:05:48PM -0600 References: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <20000601175654.A23311@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 03:05:48PM -0600, Mark Gregory wrote: >I've never heard of the Mindset PC, It was a wicked cool 80186-based PC, just barely PC-compatible enough to get your hopes up but that's about where it ended. It had really snazzy (for the time) graphics and sound hardware, weird keyboard (IIRC the power switch was on it and actually sent scan codes rather than controling the PS directly), and a timer which among other things could be programmed to turn the machine on and off. Came out around '84 I think, and disappeared pretty quickly. I remember seeing an ACP ad selling the bare boxes off for $200 a couple of years later, still kicking myself for not buying one. John Wilson D Bit From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jun 1 16:56:41 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Up for review: > >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > >about the people that helped design these computers? > > I believe that would be Jay Miner. You're saying Jay Miner worked on the Mindset? Both the Mindset and the Amiga were released in 1984, right? It seems unlikely that they were designed by the same guy(s). I've never heard this particular bit of folklore, though. > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was > the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS > was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus > delayed first shipments. Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that is second-hand. Cheers, Doug From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:03:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601213210.11615.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > After all, everyone knows that a 1 MHz 6502 isn't fast enough to do disk > control in software at all! :-) Woz's design is a classic example of > "thinking outside the box". IIRC, he was quoted somewhere as saying > that he didn't previously have any knowledge of the design of disk > controllers, so he just designed what he thought would be necessary. But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, > any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's > design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips > as some of them. 6 to be exact. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:08:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601213950.11699.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of > > the diskette and vice versa. > > I have no idea what you mean by that. The Apple ][ disk format has no > concept of "side". There's no field in the address mark for a side > designation. Of course not. But because of the head orientation on Apple disk drives, the backside of the disk is what actually holds the "side 1" data. Say for instance you had a bad sector on a "one-sided" diskette caused by a physical defect and you looked at the front surface of the disk through the head notch looking for the defect. You wouldn't see it. You'd have to flip the disk over to see the defect. But of course, you knew this :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:14:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art24.htm Nice little summary article. >From that: "Aquarius Mattel When Mattel demonstrated this computer at a trade show in 1983, employees had to conceal one of the keys with masking tape. For some bizarre reason known only to Matte l engineers, the Aquarius had a convenient key that instantly rebooted the computer and wiped out all your data." It was called the RESET key and I hated it. They at least designed a little ridge around it so it was harder to accidentally press. However, I remember you could do a CTRL-C or some other control key sequence and "undo" the RESET (basially it would cancel the reset and put you back where you just were). When you first turned the Aquarius on, you had a little intro screen that said whatever, something like "Mattel Aquarius" ... "Press any key to continue". When you pressed a key it initialized BASIC and plopped you into a prompt. Pressing the RESET key apparently didn't erase the memory but just took you to the initial startup screen, so it was made possible to back out of a RESET using the control key sequence. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 1 17:19:57 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <014a01bfcc17$881bca60$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Tech Rumors/Legends? > >When did Jay Miner pass away? > June 20, 1994. For a full bio, see http://www.jms.org/jay-miner.html Mark. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 17:25:30 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601152223.00ca8660@208.226.86.10> At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote: > > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was > > the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS > > was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus > > delayed first shipments. > >Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The >only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that >is second-hand. Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while. --Chuck From stan at netcom.com Thu Jun 1 17:22:19 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> Hello all, I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: APPLE COMPUTER INC. 820-0510-A c1993 It also has a chip on it with the label: 341S0021 c 1983-93 Apple ^ | |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm beginning to think it's not. Any clues are greatly appreciated! Thanks, Stan From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 17:28:44 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:08:47PM -0700 References: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:08:47PM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Then the machine descriptor would reflect the actual machine that the >software was designed to run on. Who says it's software? What if it's a data disk? Or a totally unknown one? Or something that's portable (e.g. an interpreted language). It just seems like it could cause trouble if the image were hard-wired to claim it's from one particular place. Especially if they get tagged incorrectly, then utilities which *could* read the disk will refuse, and ones which *can't* will screw themselves up trying because they believe the header. >I'd hate to make a "standard" that doesn't >address all the various needs of every different floppy format and then >end up having to extend the standard later or not have it adopted due to >it's limited usefulness. The opposite extreme is to not have it adopted because it's too complex to be practical. It's definitely a good thing to anticipate future needs, but I wouldn't get too hung up with the notion that this format will be all things to all people. There will always be a few oddballs out there which won't fit the framework, whatever it is. >We have the ability right now to think, argue, >recommend, specify and commit and so we might as well try to do it as >rightly as possible. Absolutely, that's why I jumped in. I've written a bunch of floppy utilities, and picturing extending any of them to work with verbose tagged free-form text files with redundant header descriptors and lots of magic numbers, is giving me a headache. One aspect of doing it right, is doing it so that it can be implemented cleanly. >I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern >host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want >the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard >turns into a big messy markup language. Careful, this is a *very* common pitfall these days. "I'll just assume that everyone in the world has access to the same modern hardware and software that I do." This was my point about Teledisk (especially since it's a bit flakey even on a real PC). If I have a Pro/350 and I want to write a DECmate II disk, there's no technical reason why I can't do it (the low-level format is the same so it's trivial), so why create an artificial limitation by depending on a big complicated C program which doesn't run on the Pro? >This is a circular specification. What you need in order to create a >"no-nonsense" archive IS the standard we are attempting to define, because >every machine will invariably have some wacky formats that won't allow a >sensible, straight-forward archive to be made. This needs to be taken >into account. IMHO, that's *their* problem. If a disk format is so weird that there isn't even any way to decide what would come first in a binary snapshot, then *that* format should have a big tangled mass of header descriptors etc. But that doesn't mean that *every* format needs to have a hairy wad of descriptors intermingled with the data. As an analogy, I *really* like the Kermit file transfer protocol. It's designed to be a very good compromise between capability and ease of implementation. There are lots of possible bells and whistles but most of the time you can get away without them. It has a few basic assumptions which don't hold true for *all* systems (files are a linear sequence of 8-bit bytes, filenames can be represented in ASCII, the serial line can pass any ASCII printing character through), but they fit the vast majority of real systems. It works around most of the common problems in file transfer, but it's simple enough that you can write a basic native Kermit implementation for almost any architecture in a few days. John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 17:39:45 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601223945.12214.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam Ismail writes: > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages that did it. I wrote: >> Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, >> any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's >> design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips >> as some of them. Sellam wrote: > 6 to be exact. 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really part of the disk controller. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 17:41:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601224154.12243.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Of course not. But because of the head orientation on Apple disk drives, > the backside of the disk is what actually holds the "side 1" data. Aside from the fact that there *isn't* a side 1, that's not different than any other 5.25-inch single-side drive. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:42:44 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... Message-ID: <20000601224244.73262.qmail@hotmail.com> FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 1 17:49:09 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! (Stan Perkins) References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> Message-ID: <14646.59493.115107.152332@phaduka.neurotica.com> Sounds like a video frame grabber to me... -Dave McGuire On June 1, Stan Perkins wrote: > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Stan From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:51:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Rumor/Legend #3 Message-ID: <20000601225145.68626.qmail@hotmail.com> Welllll... as for the whacked out missing-corner looking disks, I can confirm this... I have an ancient Memorex 651 floppy disk drive, and this thing is circa 1973-74.. And those are the disks it uses... it CANNOT use "normal" disks. FYI, there are at least two types of those disks, FD IV and FD V, not sure what the diff is but I will look it up in the manual later tonight. I have around 40 or so of those weird disks... They are also notable (IMHO) for being freakishly colored... Indeed, you can easily tell FD IV's and FD V's apart by the fact that FD IV disks are icky 70's orange, while FD V disks are a funky dark blue sort of color. I actually have 3 other clone disks from Information Terminals (the chicken company!) too, but I couldn't tell ya if they're FD IV or FD V clones.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:58:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: "Doug Coward" "Tech Rumors/Legends?" (Jun 1, 13:33) References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <10006012358.ZM14067@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 13:33, Doug Coward wrote: > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I've not heard of an EPROM used this way, but DRAMs certainly have been. It's possible, with care, to remove the metal lid from some ceramic-packaged DRAMs and add a lens. The memory cells are light sensitive; the more light, the faster the charge leaks away, so the scheme is to write 1's into all locations, pause, then read them back. Unfortunately, on most DRAMs, the relationship between logical address and physical location in the array is not simply "add 256 for the next row", so some decoding is necessary. However, at least one DRAM does have such a simple mapping, and was sold for the purpose. I'm sure it was described in one of Steve Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar articles in Byte, around 1982, but I can't find it amongst my reprints. Anyone? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:35:55 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 1, 11:10) References: Message-ID: <10006012335.ZM14057@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 11:10, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > But a lot more volumnious. But this is just my prejudice speaking. Even > though I find HTML useful, I hate it. It needn't be a whole lot more voluminous. The tags should be concise, there's no need to write an essay for each part. Keywords might be a good idea. Tags would be omitted if irrelevant (as many would be for a "raw" archive, or for a common format with no "funnies"). So a disk descriptor might look something like this: {Apple ][<00>soft<00>trks:<40><00>rpm:<15><255><00>{trk:<00><00>logical<00> length:<12><34><00>sectors:<10>{sector:<00><00>{sync{bytes:<16><00>value:<255><00>}{header:GCR<00>trk:<00><00>sec:<00><00>physsec:<00><00>head:<00><00>size:<00><01><00>}{data:< ---256 binary bytes---- >crc:<00>}}sector: [repeat as reqd] }}{track: [repeat as reqd] }} I can't remember some details like the size of a DOS 3.3 track or what the sync bytes are so that's just an stylistic example. The opening "{" marks the start of an object and is matched by a closing "}"; braces are nested because objects are nested. Variable-length strings like "Apple ][" are terminated by some agreed control character (I used ASCII NUL, <00>). Numeric values are stored in binary (actually it might make more sense to store them in ASCII where they follow a string description, but probably not for a block of sector data). So "rpm" is stored as a 2-byte representation of 360. Hmm, we'd need to decide if it's little-endian or big-endian -- or add another tag! > > a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the > > sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd > > envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly > > later mail): > > I don't like the idea of storing the actual sector data as text though. I hadn't meant to imply that; I mean you could hexify it if you wanted, but I don't see any need. Actually one of the things I was thinking of earlier today, was Acorn's "DrawFile" format, which uses similar objects, but the data is still binary (it's a computer program that reads the data, not a human). If a human really did need to read it, you could always use a hex editor. > I guess in this > day and age it doesn't matter much anymore but when I was growing up you > had to make every byte count, and I know more than 95% of us here can > relate to that. Yup, I was too, but I think here the benefits greatly outweigh the disadvantage of extra storage requirement. We want this to be as useful as possible, and the easier it is to use for unexpected formats (to create *and* to read), the more it will get used. > > It also > > means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise > > inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of > > inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same > > time, or someone rolled their own. > > I agree with that. Human readability is definitely a compelling advantage > as is the elimination of the need for a centralized database of system > descriptions. It would still be good to have a central repository. At the very least, it would allow those who know where to look, to see what has already been dealt with, and save a lot of design effort if the format they want is already there. It would be the place to store the explanation of the tag system. Plus, the bigger it gets, the more it will encourage others to archive their treasures, too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:44:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: John Wilson "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 1, 16:34) References: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <10006012344.ZM14061@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 16:34, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) > > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. This is also true on some Acorn disks, and I'm sure I've run across it elsewhere, where the "head" value encoded in each sector header is always "0", because the second side is treated as tracks 80-159 instead of each cylinder being two tracks distinguished by head number. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:57:43 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 Message-ID: <20000601225743.65115.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, if you seek to install VMS 5.2, then you have no problem... simply kindly ask me for the use of my VMS 5.2 RL02 stand-alone backup cartridge, never used, was sealed in the box when I got it... And no, the shock meter was NOT red ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:58:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <20000601225809.16350.qmail@hotmail.com> >Nice little summary article. > >From that: > >"Aquarius > >Mattel > >When Mattel demonstrated this computer at a trade show >in 1983, employees >had to conceal one of the keys with >masking tape. For some bizarre reason >known only to >Matte l engineers, the Aquarius had a convenient key >that >instantly rebooted the computer and wiped out all >your data." > >It was called the RESET key and I hated it. They at >least designed a >little ridge around it so it was harder >to accidentally press. However, I >remember you could do >a CTRL-C or some other control key sequence and >"undo" >the RESET (basially it would cancel the reset and put >you back >where you just were). > >When you first turned the Aquarius on, you had a little >intro screen that >said whatever, something like "Mattel >Aquarius" ... "Press any key to >continue". When you >pressed a key it initialized BASIC and plopped you >into a prompt. > >Pressing the RESET key apparently didn't erase the >memory but just took >you to the initial startup screen, >so it was made possible to back out of >a RESET using the >control key sequence. > >Sellam International Man >of Intrigue and >Danger >--------------------------------------------------------->---------------------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for >details! One thing I'm surprised that did not make it onto that list it the Macintosh Portable (it probably was #21 or thereabouts). If the DG/1 required Superman to pick it up, I don't want to know who they would have required to pick it up! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:00:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Who says it's software? What if it's a data disk? Or a totally > unknown one? Or something that's portable (e.g. an interpreted > language). It just seems like it could cause trouble if the image > were hard-wired to claim it's from one particular place. Especially > if they get tagged incorrectly, then utilities which *could* read the > disk will refuse, and ones which *can't* will screw themselves up > trying because they believe the header. In that case perhaps we can have generic group meta codes, such as "CP/M", etc. > The opposite extreme is to not have it adopted because it's too complex to > be practical. It's definitely a good thing to anticipate future needs, but > I wouldn't get too hung up with the notion that this format will be all > things to all people. There will always be a few oddballs out there which > won't fit the framework, whatever it is. Yes, but in it's current iteration it is not very complex at all. Detailed, yes. Complex, no. It's being designed to allow a very simple, straight foward archive to be created in the case of no special considerations (i.e. a "standard" floppy disk) while still being powerful enough to allow a very bizarre format to be described as well. I think the balance is being achieved. > Absolutely, that's why I jumped in. I've written a bunch of floppy > utilities, and picturing extending any of them to work with verbose tagged > free-form text files with redundant header descriptors and lots of magic > numbers, is giving me a headache. One aspect of doing it right, is doing > it so that it can be implemented cleanly. Agreed. > >I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern > >host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want > >the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard > >turns into a big messy markup language. > > Careful, this is a *very* common pitfall these days. "I'll just assume > that everyone in the world has access to the same modern hardware and > software that I do." I don't imagine anyone will be attempting to create a multi-gigabyte archive on a Sinclair ZX80. The point is this archive will be carried forward onto ever more powerful computers, and limiting it to be feasible on technology that has long been passed by makes no sense to me. Linux will run on a 386, a 68K Mac, an Atari ST, and the Amiga. I'm satisfied with that. > This was my point about Teledisk (especially since it's a bit flakey even > on a real PC). If I have a Pro/350 and I want to write a DECmate II disk, > there's no technical reason why I can't do it (the low-level format is the > same so it's trivial), so why create an artificial limitation by depending > on a big complicated C program which doesn't run on the Pro? Take the specification and write an archive application that will run on the Pro/350. As stated above, the standard as it is being defined is not difficult to implement. And as I mentioned before, I'm considering writing a DOS application to implement the standrad once it's near completion. The point is I don't see this as a legitimate concern. The standard is not currently constructed to require a computer with gobs of memory, even if it does evolve into a markup language. > IMHO, that's *their* problem. If a disk format is so weird that there isn't > even any way to decide what would come first in a binary snapshot, then *that* > format should have a big tangled mass of header descriptors etc. But that > doesn't mean that *every* format needs to have a hairy wad of descriptors > intermingled with the data. I agree, and the way I am seeing the standard evolve will not require massive headers for standard formatted disks. It may not look like it now but that is what is in the back of my mind as we move forward with this. We're still really in the gathering phase so don't get frustrated just yet. As statedin so many words before, the standard will be designed intelligently enough to archive a standard diskette in a simple, straight forward manner, but also allow the complexity to archive a completely non-standard diskette. > As an analogy, I *really* like the Kermit file transfer protocol. It's > designed to be a very good compromise between capability and ease of > implementation. There are lots of possible bells and whistles but > most of the time you can get away without them. It has a few basic > assumptions which don't hold true for *all* systems (files are a > linear sequence of 8-bit bytes, filenames can be represented in ASCII, > the serial line can pass any ASCII printing character through), but > they fit the vast majority of real systems. It works around most of > the common problems in file transfer, but it's simple enough that you > can write a basic native Kermit implementation for almost any > architecture in a few days. We'll try to develop this standard in the same spirit. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:02:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601223945.12214.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam Ismail writes: > > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > > If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages > that did it. I'll take your word for it. > Sellam wrote: > > 6 to be exact. > > 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really > part of the disk controller. Oh well, I usually get the number wrong no matter how many times I look at a ][ controller. At any rate, it's amazing. I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 1 18:07:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> from "Stan Perkins" at Jun 01, 2000 03:22:19 PM Message-ID: <200006012307.QAA26576@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots. > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones on there. > Any clues are greatly appreciated! Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a 68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93 http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris or a Quadra. Zane From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:17:00 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC Message-ID: Here's something I pondered the other day: Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? ^^^^ Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell under the designation of "AppleSoft". Something tells me Eric may know this. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 18:23:59 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com><14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20000531190346.16843.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3936F08E.A4B31B91@cheta.net> I run Netscape Communicator 4.7 on my 25mhz single-processor SparcStation 330 and don't think performance is horrible. It takes about 90 seconds to launch Netscape but only four seconds to launch subsequent copies. For an 11 year-old machine it is excellent! I say this in response to your comment about the relative nature of the term 'acceptable performance'. My AMD k63-400 running OS/2 Warp 4 takes less than a second to launch Netscape 4.61 from scratch..... Jason McBrien wrote: > I've got several machines I use for different purposes. I've got a 700MHz > Athlon with Windoze 'cause Unreal Tournament just sucks on a DECStation 5000 > :) But the DEC makes a really nice webserver, and the SPARCStation 10 can > run Netscape SuiteSpot servers OK but I wouldn't want to run Communicator on > it. > (Netscape is comparatively slow on my Ultra 10 at work) A place for > everything and everything in it's place. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: Finds > > > On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to > > > give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my > opinions > > > of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) > > > > > > Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. > > > > While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation > > of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of > > us fight very hard to keep it alive. > > > > But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely > > subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for > > Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe > > that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the > > only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of > > high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than > > one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. > > > > Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, > > and more power to you! > > > > > > -Dave McGuire > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:35:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 1, 0 02:03:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/da280158/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:38:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 1, 0 02:08:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 961 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/ce763b76/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Jun 1 18:52:18 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> My two cents, in decreasing order of sanity. Maybe it's a little far from the original goal*, but for the cost of a few extra bytes in track/sector numbers, the same format might handle the contents of hard disks. And there's probably a lot fewer "whacko" formatting concerns with those than with floppies - 99.44% of the time, just getting a big pile of sectors might be as much as you'd need. AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. And machines that used hard disks didn't generally fixate on the number of tracks or sectors. (How much of that is true? Discussion?) My reaction to XML et al is generally negative too, and also not for any good reason that I could put my finger on. Maybe it seems like it would be work to parse, and I like to imagine my poor old 8-bitters being able to make use of the images themselves, not just the recipients of an end-product that was produced by a modern machine that digested the image. As I said, it's not entirely a rational concern; those old 8-bitters could do it just as well as any modern machine, given enough time and storage and programming... Maybe that's it, coding up an XML parser for a CoCo seems like it would be much more work than having some byte-by-byte record definition. So maybe you XML supporters need to hit that point a little harder. Speaking of which, maybe some compressed representation of repeated identical sectors could be good. If a floppy was 10% full, and the remaining sectors were full of some "empty" byte pattern, It would be nice if those "empty" sectors didn't take up space in the image. Of course, the image could just omit sectors, but then you'd need intelligence to decide which sectors to omit; almost as bad as needing to know which files to keep. The only way to be safe is to get it all, and maybe take advantage of patterns in the data to compress it a bit. Then again, if I care about image size, I suppose I could always use any standard compression utility on the image. And then I'd want to get decompression going on the TRS-80... Okay, I think it's time to stop babbling. Bill. * I'm _not_ going to make any bad puns about being on the wrong track. :-) On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:34:55, Sellam Ismail wrote: ] Current iteration: ] ] Desk Descriptor Header ] ] 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) ] 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) ] 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) ] 4. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] ] ] Optional: ] ] 5. Archiver Name (24 bytes) ] 6. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) ] 7. Disk Title (64 bytes) ] 8. Publisher (if applicable) (24 bytes) ] 9. Year of Publication (2 bytes) ] A. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) ] B. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) ] C. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) ] ] ***Does it make sense to have separate fields as specified #7-9 or should ] we rely upon the archivist to include that data in the description? I ] think so since this is important information that should be forced to be ] included with the archive. ] ] Maximum size: 685 bytes ] ] [1] If applicable ] ] Note: Encoding type moved to Track Descriptor Header ] ] ] A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall ] description of the track: ] ] Track Descriptor Header ] ] 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] ] 2. Disk Side (1 byte) ] 3. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] ] 4. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] ] 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) ] 6. Encoding type (1 byte) ] 7. Sectors in this track (1 byte) ] 8. Interleave (1 byte) ] 9. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) ] A. Bits per byte (1 byte) ] B. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) ] ] Size: 15 bytes ] ] [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. ] [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-9 are ignored. ] [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. ] ] ] I can start to see where the flexibility afforded by a markup language ] makes sense. I just can't figure out why I am still resisting it though. ] ] So, are we on the right track? The wrong track? ] ] Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ] Looking for a six in a pile of nines... ] ] Coming soon: VCF 4.0! ] VCF East: Planning in Progress ] See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 18:58:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000601235835.15224.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Now, which of those you consider to be part of the disk controller I > don't know... Arguably the boot PROM isn't part of the disk controller; it is still perfectly capable of controlling disks without it. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 19:13:26 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu>; from yakowenk@cs.unc.edu on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400 References: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20000601201326.A23652@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- >protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. I've never seen anything like that in person either, but I've heard of PDP-11 software (for an MRI machine I think?) which did do copy protection using bad sectors on a DP: (-emulating) hard disk. Weird... John Wilson D Bit From jlewczyk at his.com Thu Jun 1 19:54:49 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. Can anybody help? [ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] Thanks, John - jlewczyk@his.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 20:03:47 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> (jlewczyk@his.com) References: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <20000602010347.10673.qmail@brouhaha.com> "John Lewczyk" asks about the 8530: > A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know > how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff > on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. > [ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] http://www.amd.com/products/npd/techdocs/techdocs.html Near the bottom of the page is a technical manual covering the 8530H and 85C30, and a data sheet and errata sheet on the 85C30. Note that the 85C30 has some additional features that were not available in the NMOS/HMOS part; these should be called out in the docs. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:45:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 1, 0 06:28:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/88cccad7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:48:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006012335.ZM14057@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 1, 0 10:35:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/0b502409/attachment.ksh From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 20:13:09 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Copy Protection was Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> <20000601201326.A23652@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39370A25.22E0BCC6@cheta.net> Oh God. The Atari 8-bit was probably king of disk copy protection and the means to break/duplicate that protection. There were long sectors, short sectors , fuzzy sectors, long tracks, short tracks, error sectors, holes in the disk burned by a laser, phantom sectors, crc error sectors, and only HE knows how many others. Some sectors gave different errors at different times, some only appeared at certain times. It was an unbelievably complex, babylon back then. There were hardware mods such as the Happy and the Archiver chipset replacements which would duplicate these difficult disks, software such as the 'black patch' which would remove the protection by patching the maker's code. It was a bloody war. I guess we won for about ten years but protection is back on cd's and we are expected to be willing to buy crippled cd writers which will obey the protection marks. Yea right. Hey Bob Puff! Are you listening? I bet you can come up with a circuit to defeat the code embedded in these drives if anyone can. Directly in answer to the below quote, I have run into software on hard disk that could not be moved from it's spot, or 'ghosted' to another drive. I think this hard drive-based protection scheme went out when operating systems no longer allowed primitive disk access (OS/2, Unix, Windos NT, etcetera). John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > >AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- > >protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. > > I've never seen anything like that in person either, but I've heard > of PDP-11 software (for an MRI machine I think?) which did do copy > protection using bad sectors on a DP: (-emulating) hard disk. Weird... > > John Wilson > D Bit From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 20:19:55 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC References: Message-ID: <39370BBB.DF8F90B6@cheta.net> Maybe Microsoft wrote it but I thought that Shepherdson Microsystems had a hand in Apple's Basic as well as writing ProDos. I will poke around for that info. A few months ago I ran across a website which gave a lot of the history of Shepherdson (later Optimized Systems Software). Sellam Ismail wrote: > Here's something I pondered the other day: > > Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > ^^^^ > Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? > I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell > under the designation of "AppleSoft". > > Something tells me Eric may know this. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 20:24:17 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian>; from jlewczyk@his.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 08:54:49PM -0400 References: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <20000601212417.A23802@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 08:54:49PM -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know >how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff >on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. Really? Last time I cared (a few months ago) I had no trouble finding it on Zilog's web site. IIRC they had a single unified doc for all of their SCC chips, and you had to download the chapters as individual PDFs. I've got 'em (about 1.3 MB total), as well as the AMD Am85C30 and Am85C30A PDFs, if you want them just tell me how to send them (email, FTP, etc.). John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Thu Jun 1 22:03:39 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Apple ][ floppy controller/6502 doesn't decode the bytes at the floppy rotation speed. The 6502 copies the encoded bytes (de-serialized by the controller) into memory, then decodes them after the sector has been read. The sector interleave guarantees enough time to decode the data before the next sector is available to be read. I agree, it is an interesting piece of code... clint On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Sellam Ismail writes: > > > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > > > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > > > > If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages > > that did it. > > I'll take your word for it. > > > Sellam wrote: > > > 6 to be exact. > > > > 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really > > part of the disk controller. > > Oh well, I usually get the number wrong no matter how many times I look at > a ][ controller. At any rate, it's amazing. > > I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one > of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > From jruschme at mac.com Thu Jun 1 22:43:25 2000 From: jruschme at mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <200006020104.UAA18144@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > From: Stan Perkins > Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: If it's what I think, it's actually a PPC 601 PDS (processor direct slot) card. > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) Not that old... but none the less... > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. Sounds like the AV card for the 1st-generation (NUBUS) PowerMacs (6100/7100/8100). > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. More likely, someone removed it from an AV 6100 to install the DOS card. Interesting find, though... > Any clues are greatly appreciated! You're welcome. <<>> From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 1 17:21:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> >Sellam Ismail writes: >> But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something >> tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > >If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages >that did it. Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. Allison From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Jun 1 23:14:27 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: <20000601224244.73262.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a schematic somewhere? Also, why was this considered such an engineering achievement? Thanks! -mac On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of > his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... > > Will J From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 1 23:19:19 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601152223.00ca8660@208.226.86.10> References: Message-ID: <200006020416.e524GHO20790@grover.winsite.com> I also got this from not only Bob Cringely when I read his book and interviewed him , but also when I interviewed Forrest Mims, who was one of the co-founders of MITS and has also written a boatload of magazine articles and ton of project books for Radio Shack. Forrest also said that his first impression of the Microsoft Children was that they were loud and spoiled and complained a lot. Doesn't sound like much has changed...... The Altair on the cover of the Jan 75 PE is a mockup....just a case with the front panel that was cobbled together in a hurry after the original was lost so that they would have something to photograph. BTW....how many of us have that issue? I have both Jan and Feb, and also the Altair 6800 issue. Tried several years ago at Comdex to get Billy G to sign one of the later ones that offered MITS BASIC, but the man has more layers of "people" who treat him like God than the President does..... Date sent: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:25:30 -0700 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org From: Chuck McManis Subject: Re: Tech Rumors/Legends? Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics > > > was the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was > > > returned. MITS was forced to recreate large portions of the design > > > from scratch and thus delayed first shipments. > > > >Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The > >only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that > >is second-hand. > > Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer > club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a > Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member > with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article > to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and > was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while. > > --Chuck > > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 1 20:34:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip Message-ID: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> >A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know >how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff >on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. 8530 is the Zilog SCC chip, as is the 8030. The differ only in bus interface. The 8530 is the non multiplexed bus part. It's a dual channel serial device with DMA and interrupt logic for Z80 series cpus. Programming of the functions are similar to Z80 SIO and related parts in a general way. It's a nontrivial device to use. Contact Zilog for data or check their page under SCC. >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. Allison From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu Jun 1 23:38:38 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... Message-ID: <20000602043954.WXCN2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Mike Cheponis > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:14 AM > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > schematic somewhere? If you want to see a nice picture, see eBay auction 341188950 (ends June 3). From dastar at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 23:37:11 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <200006020342.UAA07836@siconic.com> I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. I'd also like to get a hold of the box the whistle came in. I'm also looking for the October 1971 issue of Esquire magazine that featured the article with John Draper talking about the "blue box". If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me directly at . Thanks! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Jun 2 00:49:04 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000a01bfcc56$42874bc0$013da8c0@Corellian> > 8530 is the Zilog SCC chip, as is the 8030. The differ only in bus interface. > The 8530 is the non multiplexed bus part. > > It's a dual channel serial device with DMA and interrupt logic for Z80 > series cpus. Programming of the functions are similar to Z80 SIO > and related parts in a general way. It's a nontrivial device to use. > >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other > devices. ] > > > You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. Yep. I see the chip on the Lisa IO board and my Mac Logic boards! John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Jun 2 00:43:43 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip Message-ID: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] > > You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. > > Allison I'm sure. It's in the Mac from day one, in Sun workstations since at least the Sun3 era (and still in one form or another in various sun4c boxes) and in every 68K-based product Software Results made after the Unibus products (the original boards used the COM5025 like the DEC DPV11? DUV11?) I will admit that it is not friendly to the MC68K bus. We used one or two dedicated PALs to handle the interfacing. Additionally, we had an 8Mhz CPU (10Mhz for the VAXBI model), but back when the Z8530 was new, 4Mhz parts were available and later some 6Mhz, but 8Mhz parts didn't come along until way later, long after our designs were done. There's lots of notes in the COMBOARD source code about not wacking on the Z8530 too fast. Eventually, we developed a kind of serial driver to handle swabbing registers, but the first products just used macros to always space out the time between telling the Z8530 which internal register to select and reading/writing that register. Personally, I think it's a cool chip, much cooler than the 8250/16450/16550 family. In addition to an async console for debugging, we pumped 3780, HASP and SNA traffic over them up to 128Kbps (our fastest modem eliminator speed). We only ever sold products for use at 56Kbps (64Kbps in Europe). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From mrdos at swbell.net Fri Jun 2 01:02:35 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: HP 7000 - What is it? Message-ID: <004b01bfcc58$27252f80$54703ed8@compaq> Does anyone know anything about a HP 7000 Series computer? I don't know a lot about old HP systems. Do y'all think it's worth getting? Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/35468385/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 01:01:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000602060118.12861.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The Apple ][ floppy controller/6502 doesn't decode the bytes at the > floppy rotation speed. The 6502 copies the encoded bytes (de-serialized > by the controller) into memory, then decodes them after the sector > has been read. The sector interleave guarantees enough time to decode > the data before the next sector is available to be read. The whole point of this thread is that it *IS* possible for cleverly written code to do 1:1 interleave without the bounce buffer. > I agree, it is an interesting piece of code... It's even *more* interesting. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 01:02:44 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <20000602060244.21738.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal >whistles that >could produce the 2600Hz tone. If you >know the story of John Draper >(a.k.a. Cap'n Crunch) then >you know what I'm talking about. > >I'd also like to get a hold of the box the whistle came >in. I'm also >looking for the October 1971 issue of >Esquire magazine that featured the >article with John >Draper talking about the "blue box". > >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, >please e-mail me >directly at . > >Thanks! > >Sellam International Man >of Intrigue and >Danger >--------------------------------------------------------->---------------------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for >details! I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. Best of luck either way. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 01:04:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000602060449.12908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years > earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board > either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. Yes. But the part that makes Woz's design interesting is that he did it *without* an FDC, and it only ended up as seven TTL chips *total* (eight if you include the boot PROM). With an FDC chip, there's certainly a range of design styles available; I've seen simple and reasonably elegant designs, and gross disgusting kludges. But the most elegant FDC-based design is still not even in the same class as Woz's design. Note that I'm not claiming that Woz's method would be the right thing to do today. But at the time he did it, it was awesome. From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 2 01:10:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... References: Message-ID: <003101bfcc59$3d11de00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Tony Duell listed them earlier today. There's a schematic in the patent, IIRC. You can always look that up. This particular design was a noteworthy engineering achievement because of two factors. (1) Apple was able to replace the more costly logic board on the drive with one of their own making, which saved a sizeable share of the then still quite costly Shugart SA400 drives, and (2) this scheme which used the local processor to do a lot of the work, including controlling the stepping of the head, also provided DOUBLE DENSITY, which, if one used the usual approach, i.e. a FDC LSI of one sort or another, would cost about $80 at the time, and that was just for the one IC. It required a fair amount of support, a minimum of five or six additional IC's to provide head-load timing, drive and receive the cable, extract clock from the incoming bit stream, and perform the write precompensation. In the technology of the time, it was not uncommon to see a dozen IC's involved. Some systems even provided a DMAC to ensure they tansferred the data quickly enough. In short is was better because it was way cheaper than the conventional design. It worked rather well, too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:14 PM Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > schematic somewhere? > > Also, why was this considered such an engineering achievement? > > Thanks! -mac > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > > > FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of > > his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... > > > > Will J > From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 00:20:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: <20000602060244.21738.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for > them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other > phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" > from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some > free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work > for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. C'mon, give me a break. I don't even think the youngest of fools can be that naive :) No, this is purely for historical reasons. I'm developing an exhibit around the now legendary (and now very useless) "blue box". Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 2 03:14:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) References: Message-ID: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2, 0:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > {Apple ][<00>soft<00>trks:<40><00>rpm:<15><255><00>{trk:<00><00>logical<00> > > length:<12><34><00>sectors:<10>{sector:<00><00>{sync{bytes:<16><00>value:<255><00>}{header:GCR<00>trk:<00><00>sec:<00><00>physsec:<00><00>head:<00><00>size:<00><01><00>}{data:< > > ---256 binary bytes---- >crc:<00>}}sector: [repeat as reqd] > > }}{track: [repeat as reqd] }} > > Actually, that seems to give you the worst of all worlds.... > > The 'tags' are in ascii, so they're long, hard to search for, etc. And > yet the data is in binary, so the file is not printable. You can't cat it > to the screen to read the header information. No, but you can easily see it in any sensible editor (my definition of "sensible" has always included the ability to show binary or at least control characters :-))... > I must admit that I find files containing printable text information > mixed up with binary data to be _very_ annoying unless there's a good > reason for doing it. > > If you must use some kind of markup language, at least encode the data as > strings of hex digits, or base-64 encoding or something like that. I don't have any objection to that, in fact I'm inclined to agree, but I felt others don't want to take up more space than necessary. If encoded, I'd go for base64. It's the most efficient of the common schemes (hex, uuencoded, base64), has none of the ambiguities of uuencode (there are some very broken uu..code implementations around, because it's not fully specified), and if anyone does want to read it manually, a decoder is only a few lines of . On the other hand, hex has some advantages: easy to read, very easy to {en,de}code, and it would be more appropriate, perhaps, for binary values in tags (assuming the values weren't just written in ASCII in the first place). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 2 07:18:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Personally, I think it's a cool chip, much cooler than the 8250/16450/16550 Hate 8250 and friends. I'd use S2681 before using an 8250. I do use a lot of 8251s (of part for async). The NEC D7201, Z80-SIO and the SCC however are majorly nice, though complex chips to use. All are fast. I consider the use of the 8250 and clones on PCs to a be a significant limitor of good comm performance. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 2 07:18:33 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <36.6ae4465.26690019@aol.com> In a message dated 6/2/00 2:31:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > > I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for > > them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other > > phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" > > from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some > > free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work > > > for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. > > C'mon, give me a break. I don't even think the youngest of fools can be > that naive :) > > No, this is purely for historical reasons. I'm developing an exhibit > around the now legendary (and now very useless) "blue box". > > Sellam back then, the telco used electromechanical systems which were easy to hack and get away with. nowadays, it's electronic with much more automation and security so its harder to cover one's tracks. i think red boxes still work, but some COCOTs have been modifed to prevent this. DB Young hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 2 07:26:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000602060449.12908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Allison wrote: > > Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years > > earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board > > either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. > > Yes. But the part that makes Woz's design interesting is that he did > it *without* an FDC, and it only ended up as seven TTL chips *total* > (eight if you include the boot PROM). Well the NS* controller does NOT use an FDC. IF you kick out the bus interface (apple for the most part has none) and the fact that apple used a tweeked disk drive too the NS* controller is really simple with the core being less than 8 or so chips. Of course back in '77 current ttl s100 interfaces usually added 5-7 chips to any IO design. > With an FDC chip, there's certainly a range of design styles available; > I've seen simple and reasonably elegant designs, and gross disgusting > kludges. But the most elegant FDC-based design is still not even in > the same class as Woz's design. I don't know, I"d done a few 765 designs (especially 37c65) that were low on parts and programatically one heck of a lot lighter on the cpu and memory. Though the best one was my first as that was only 11 chips for the whole S100 board and did all FDC standards for 8", 5.25" and 3.5" (excluding off data rate 1.2mb). Stll use that one. > Note that I'm not claiming that Woz's method would be the right thing > to do today. But at the time he did it, it was awesome. Yep, it was cheap. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 2 07:31:17 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD8D@TEGNTSERVER> > I don't think that would work. I've cooked EPROMs for months > without any change in their functioning. So did a partner of mine.... using a homemade eraser made from a UV sterilizer unit taken from a scrapped dialysis machine. It was an Intel eprom, a 2732 or 2764, ceramic case, quartz window. The embedded system we were developing was an auto- mated knife sharpener (not to be a consumer product). During debugging, we had the prototype out of the case. Things were working fine and it was time for the first install into the van (which would drive from restaurant to restaurant doing the knife sharpening thing). Put unit in case, fire up, no operation. Take unit out of case, fire it up, everything works. We looked for warping of the PC board, kinking of cables, and all sort of things that coould glitch the unit out. Nada. Finally, thinking that we were only going to see how the case was screwing with the PC board from inside the assembled unit, we cut an access panel in the aluminum, and shined a flashlight inside. It happened to hit the EPROM window and voila! the unit starts running. After a long call with Intel engineers, it was determined that too much UV could fry the EPROM such that it would only function correctly when light was shining onto the substrate through the window! An EPROM that was afraid of the dark. To get the prototype out the door, we built it a night-lite, and everything was fine. -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 2 07:33:10 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD8E@TEGNTSERVER> Sounds like a cache card for a PowerPC-based Mac. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Perkins [mailto:stan@netcom.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:22 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the > list! > > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat > pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F > connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors > labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Stan > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jun 2 07:52:12 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? Message-ID: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ divide with them. ------- From owad at applefritter.com Fri Jun 2 08:55:16 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC Message-ID: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > ^^^^ >Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? >I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell >under the designation of "AppleSoft". "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. As in the Apple T-Shirt of fame bearing the dialog box: __________________________________________________ | | | Sorry the AppleSoft engineer "unknown" | | has unexpectedly quit | | | | [Who Cares] [Do Something] | | \ | |__________________________________________________| Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 2 10:26:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? Message-ID: <000602112652.20200edb@trailing-edge.com> Daniel Seagraves wrote, in his classic style of leaving the body of the message devoid of any any actual context as to what he's asking about and requiring a reference to the Subject line: >Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. A *very* popular book for introducing this subject to students these days is _Computer Arithmetic: Algorithms and Hardware Designs_, by Behrooz Parhami. It's a pedantic, general purpose introduction, with an emphasis on conveying a true understanding of the subject through how the bits are actually banged about. An even more pedantic introduction is Donald Knuth's _The Art of Computer Programming, Vol 1: Fundamental Algorithms_. It's probably not so good as a introduction if you're really unfamiliar with the subject already, but it's a true classic in the field, and anyone who has worked in the field goes back to it every so often for some deep insight. For example, I just browsed through it a couple days ago for some grokking of how negative number base arithmetic works. Neat feature: no sign bit necessary! Another good reference, if you've already got some experience with computer architecture books and want to leverage this knowledge, is the IEEE Tutorial titled simply _Computer Arithmetic_ and edited by Earl E. Swartzlander. There's also Kai Hwang's _Computer Arithmetic: Principles, Architecture, and Design_ and Israel Koren's _Computer Arithmetic Algorithms_. I suspect that you just want a cheat-sheet for a few specific applications, in which case there's probably a Schaum's outline paperback that will get you by but without conveying any real understanding about how it works or why it works the way it does. I'm sure your local library has some similar workbook-style textbooks. Perhaps intermediate between the dumbed-down level of Schaum's Outlines and the high-and-lofty ivory tower view of Knuth would be a good numerical analysis text intended for scientists who have to learn the basics of how computers do arithmetic, and how this differs from traditional school-book arithmetic. _Numerical Recipes_ doesn't quite fit the bill, but when I was an undergrad I took several numerical analysis courses and all the textbooks had good, but terse, introductions to computer arithmetic, both fixed and floating-point. Again, I'm sure your local library has some good books. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:16:49 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <20000602161649.87779.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm, if someone writes a way to do all the archiving, I'd be happy to provide my 4381 for some serious processing power ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 2 11:21:16 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: If you want to archive old 16mm or 8mm movies then VHS is not the way to go. My wife's uncle has made movies of family functions for the last 50 years. I have watched them, lots of 16mm film loading and rewinding involved. He transferred them to VHS about 5 years ago. We did keep the originals. We have had lengthy discussions of how to preserve them for the next 50 years. The 5 year old VHS copies are convenient to view but we can now start to see the loss of crispness due to data bleed-through. There is also a loss of color fidelity. We have discussed CD-ROM and other digital media. Our goal is to keep them for another 100 years and then let the next generation worry about them. It's amazing to see the progression of the development of our lake community in the movies, members of our family have lived here for 72 years. Boats have changed a lot. We keep coming back to analog photographic film, partly because of cost, mainly because of stability. I am investigating how to save/archive photographs from our community that span from 1928, no lake and no water, until now. Saving the photos is easy, recording who is in them is the hard part. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. I helped the community computerized our records about 8 years ago. Up until then we used bound paper ledgers. For historical reasons the ledgers are invaluable because each page reflects then entire history of a lot/home from the original plat until today. We have evolved from DBASE, to Peachtree databases, to Access databases. A computer database is no help to try to figure out why the sewer line was run through my yard and not on the sewer easement in 1960. Written notes in the ledger help me to understand that the rock was in the way and that hand digging was easier through my yard. Now if you want to know why one house is constructed over the water and not on shore that is another story. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Mike Slow day in computer land. From dastar at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 11:26:16 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane Message-ID: <200006021532.IAA08513@siconic.com> I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate bridge and an airplane flying over it: http://www.siconic.com/crap/ascii_bridge.jpg It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. It's yellowed with age because it had been hanging on the wall of the person who originally printed it for I believe a couple decades or so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Jun 2 17:26:39 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L Message-ID: Hello, Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 2 11:48:09 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>; from DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 05:52:12AM -0700 References: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20000602124809.A25127@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 05:52:12AM -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. I'll assume you mean integer math. ADD -- I hope I get this right: For each bit, you have the two input bits, plus one sum output, and also one carry in and one carry out. For the LSB, carry in is zero. The sum output is the XOR of all three inputs (A, B, Cin), i.e. a change in any input will toggle it. The Cout bit is set any time 2 or more of the three inputs are set, so whatever that works out to (the OR of the three possible ANDs would do it, but maybe there's an easier way). SUB: This is done by adding, with one of the inputs (hmm, is "subtrahend" the word???) negated. Two's complement negation is done by complementing all the bits and then adding one. And you can add the one by playing with the Cin bit to the LSB (my mind is going blank, I can't think whether it has to be 1 or 0, the sense of the carry is inverted when subtracting in this way). MUL: This is unsigned, for signed you have to take the absolute value and then negate the result if the XOR of the input sign bits is 1. It works exactly like multiplication by hand, except that you do it in binary, which means you're just multiplying by 0 or 1 so the whole multiplication table can be summed up with the AND operation: - init sum to 0 - cycle through all the bits in A (doesn't matter which order), and for each bit that's a 1, add in B shifted left by that number of places. So really, just AND all the bits of B with that bit, shift it left to the same position, and add it to the sum. - you're done DIV: Once again this is unsigned, signed DIV instructions typically do funny things with the sign of the remainder so check that carefully. Again it works just like long division by hand, only in binary. So instead of wondering how many times the divisor (?) goes into the dividend (?), you just wonder whether it goes in at *all*, since you know the answer for each bit will just be 0 or 1. So you can do it with a comparator and a subtractor, or you can always subtract and decide whether to keep the result depending on whether it borrowed: - init remainder to 0 - for all bits in the dividend, shift one bit left, filling the LSB with a 0 and shifting the bit out of the MSB into the LSB of the remainder (you lose the MSB but it's always 0) - if the remainder is .GE. the divisor, subtract the divisor from the remainder and change the LSB of the (shifted) dividend from 0 to 1 (i.e. INC it) When you're done, the remainder is correct, and what was the dividend is now the quotient. You could have assembled the quotient in its own register (since you're generating it one bit at a time), but those LSBs of the dividend are never used again so this is a cute way to do it all with one shift, and leads to a very short routine in PDP-11 code (11 instructions IIRC). Floating point */+- is exactly the same, but you have to worry about adding and removing leading 1s (in formats that do that), chopping vs. rounding of the LSB, and fixing the exponents to match. MUL and DIV are actually the easiest, since all you have to do is add or sub the exponents and then do the integer * or / operation on the mantissa, you can normalize it again in just one or two shifts. With + and - you have to worry about shifting to align the binary points before you start, and if the exponents are different by more than the size of the mantissa there will be no overlap at all so you have to ignore one or the other argument, depending on the FPU's rounding rules. Once you align the points, do the + or -, and now you have to worry about shifting left to re-normalize. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 2 12:06:38 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, > >Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do >anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. > >Kind regards >-- >Gary Hildebrand > > >ghldbrd@ccp.com | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 2 12:08:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, > >Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do >anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. Well, I've used a Exabyte 8500 on my Amiga 3000, so I would think a 8505XL should work. However, a RZ24L is a low profile 245MB DEC Hard Drive, not a Tape Drive! That's one confused sounding system! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 2 13:27:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602112422.00db91d0@208.226.86.10> At 04:26 PM 6/2/00 -0600, you wrote: >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. This leads to only a couple of possible conclusions: 1) you have a hard disk and the tape drive with the same SCSI ID the disk answered the INQUIRY command, the tape is confused because it keeps getting disk type commands. 2) Someone has told the tape drive it is a disk because they were originally trying to whack the code pages of an RZ24L to make it talk 512 byte (vs 576) byte sectors but they got their SCSI IDs (or bus ids) wrong and rewrote the code page of the tape drive instead. Weird in either case! --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 2 14:56:42 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000602145436.01fa2460@pc> Regarding recording data on analog 35mm film, below is a recent excerpt from a microscopy mailing list, where people were discussing the use of film to record detail, as opposed to CCD imaging techniques: > To begin to answer Jeremy's question directly, we need to know > how much detail a Technical Pan negative can record. The figures > depend on processing technique and the test object luminance and > contrast, but the modulation transfer function figures published by > Kodak indicate that a spatial frequency in excess of 200 cycles per > mm is easily recordable. For a test object with contrast 100:1 they > quote 320 line pairs per mm. The CCD pixel spacing required to > achieve this feat would be 640 pixels per mm. That equates to a > requirement for 15360 x 23040 pixels to match the resolving power > of a 24x36mm Technical Pan exposure. That's 0.35 Giga pixels in > round numbers. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 15:31:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >If you want to archive old 16mm or 8mm movies then VHS is not the way to go. >My wife's uncle has made movies of family functions for the last 50 years. >I have watched them, lots of 16mm film loading and rewinding involved. He You seem to have in abundance the most critical ingredient, INTEREST. Well maybe its more commitment, but for many preservation projects people want to do it, but it isn't a holy grail search. Time and money may flow unevenly, and most often squabbles on the details results in a single person having the project dumped on them. When I do our "family" project, its going to be film to CDR, followed by a survey of all who get the CDR of who is in what pictures. I will "try" to preserve as much of the original film sources as I can, but each time something happens (mouse, bug, temp, humidity) a lot of damage can occur. As each year goes by the likelyhood of someone wanting to go back to the original film keeps getting smaller and smaller. I worry if I don't have it done soon, nobody will be alive that wants to see it, or has any clue to who is who. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 15:55:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >Hello all, > >I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > >APPLE COMPUTER INC. >820-0510-A c1993 Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066 Apple part# 820-0510-A Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac 61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a camcorder or VCR for editing and playback. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 2 15:23:21 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane In-Reply-To: <200006021532.IAA08513@siconic.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate >bridge and an airplane flying over it: >It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is >roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the largest file: FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. - John From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 15:07:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <39370BBB.DF8F90B6@cheta.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Technoid Mutant wrote: > Maybe Microsoft wrote it but I thought that Shepherdson Microsystems > had a hand in Apple's Basic as well as writing ProDos. > > I will poke around for that info. A few months ago I ran across a > website which gave a lot of the history of Shepherdson (later > Optimized Systems Software). Here it is: http://www.laughton.com/Apple/Apple.html It's a nice little historyon Apple DOS. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 17:12:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: <200006020342.UAA07836@siconic.com> Message-ID: >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could >produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. >Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me >directly at . http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346814958 Bid is $19 so far. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 2 16:18:05 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane" (Jun 2, 15:23) References: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> Message-ID: <10006022218.ZM15040@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2, 15:23, John Foust wrote: > I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from > someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the > largest file: > > FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > > where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be > glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > > By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and > the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. I'd like copies of these, if you can make them available... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcruse at acm.org Fri Jun 2 16:34:20 2000 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane References: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> Message-ID: <3938285C.74ED85B3@acm.org> Hi John, I'd like to get copies of any or all of those if you have them handy, Thanks, Mike John Foust wrote: > At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate > >bridge and an airplane flying over it: > >It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is > >roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. > > I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from > someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the > largest file: > > FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > > where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be > glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > > By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and > the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. > > - John From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 15:37:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could > >produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. > >Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. > > >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me > >directly at . > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346814958 > > Bid is $19 so far. I already looked on eBay but I have no idea if those are THE whistle I'm looking for. I've gotten a couple clues so far: 1) it was "saucer" shaped 2) it had three holes (you plugged the third to get 2600hz) The one shown in the auction above does not fit the description I'm going off of. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 17:27:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> (message from Tom Owad on Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:55:16 -0400) References: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000602222722.20820.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? >> ^^^^ >> Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? >> I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell >> under the designation of "AppleSoft". > "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. Not until *many* years later. In 1977 it was only the name of the BASIC interpreter (as distinct from "Integer BASIC"). From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 2 17:40:09 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: <20000602043954.WXCN2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: I have a schematic from one of the reference manuals... Ping me in a week if I don't get it to you by then (I have a short memory)... clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > ---------- > > From: Mike Cheponis > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > > Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:14 AM > > > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there > a > > schematic somewhere? > > If you want to see a nice picture, see eBay auction 341188950 (ends June > 3). > > > From gaz_k at lineone.net Thu Jun 1 17:34:06 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? References: Message-ID: <00c601bfcce6$70d95960$5c53063e@gaz> Sellam Ismail > When did Jay Miner pass away? 1994. If he had lived he would have been 68 today. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 2 17:59:50 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A point to ponder: Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized documentation. How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, Chaucer, etc). The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. clint From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 18:23:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> > If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they > possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, > encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), > or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, > ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? No problem, they'll just refer to the PDF files documenting those standards. :-) More seriously, though: Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the next generation of optical drives? However, the CD-Audio format, upon which CD-ROM is based, was deliberately designed to be so simple that an audio player didn't necessarily need to contain a microprocessor (standalone or embedded). As far as I know, all commercial players have contained at least one microprocessor, because by 1983 it was actually cheaper to build players with them than without. I bring this up to address the hypothetical situation that 50 years from now there are not any commonly available CD-ROM drives. I firmly believe that a small team of graduate students, armed with the relevant technical specifications, could design and construct a working CD-ROM drive in under two years. > Will they even understand English (or a > close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English > (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, > Chaucer, etc). Longterm, this is a much more significant problem. However, it is relatively pointless to worry about whether they'll be able to read CD-ROMs if they would be unable to interpret the contents anyhow. > The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough > information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the > archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't > degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. Unfortunately, there is so little commercial value to doing this, that there is basically no chance of it being done for more than a trivial amount of information. From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 2 18:24:53 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You may wish to check out http://www.longnow.org/ -Mike On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > A point to ponder: > > Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian > hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just > undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. > > I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized > documentation. > > How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch > floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are > stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. > > In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or > paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? > > If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they > possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, > encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), > or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, > ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a > close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English > (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, > Chaucer, etc). > > The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough > information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the > archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't > degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. > > clint > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 18:27:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 2 Jun 2000 23:23:40 -0000) References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > is all but impossible to read now. Of course, this view overlooks the fact that 7-track tape drives were large, expensive and typically not owned by individuals, whereas there are millions of CD-ROM drives owned by individuals now. This suggests that even if CD-ROM were to be obsoleted tomorrow, that it probably still won't be that hard to turn up a working or repairable drive 30 years from now. Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are still some around, but they aren't commonplace. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:39:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 1, 0 10:43:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/e203f3b8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:28:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Jun 1, 0 09:34:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 271 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/15748fd2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:48:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 2, 0 08:14:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/5221fdc8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:33:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 1, 0 09:14:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/0fdff95d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 18:03:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 2, 0 05:52:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 12479 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/57000504/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 18:07:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <000602112652.20200edb@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 2, 0 11:26:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/20d106de/attachment.ksh From stan at netcom.com Fri Jun 2 19:51:52 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for thelist! References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <393856A8.B01F07DB@netcom.com> Thanks to Mike and all of the others who helped me out with this! It's a 24-bit accelerated video card, and now I have to see if it works in my Mac 7100/66. Regards, Stan Perkins Mike Ford wrote: > > >Hello all, > > > >I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > > >APPLE COMPUTER INC. > >820-0510-A c1993 > > Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066 > > Apple part# 820-0510-A > Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac > 61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and > video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a > camcorder or VCR for editing and playback. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 2 20:28:05 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM > drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the > next generation of optical drives? I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. These people will be the audio types that will want to be able to hear many of the pieces of music being recorded today. Remember, many of artists that will be viewed as gods in ten years are nobodies today, but recording on CDs. There will be plenty of people that will want to get early recordings, and will keep the technology alive. There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex than these, but they are well documented, and there will be spares for a very long time. And, as Eric states, it would be very possible for someone with enough resources (academic, for example) to produce a reader. I would venture to say that a well educated skilled tinker could make one. Older precision tools are getting quite easy to obtain these days, and it was those very tools that made the first players. As for 7 track tapes, well, speak up, Tim. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 2 20:33:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of > finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are > still some around, but they aren't commonplace. Look in the right place, the special interest groups dedicated to them, and you will find more than you will ever need. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 2 21:28:21 2000 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:52:12 -0700 . <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: In message <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>, "Daniel A. Seagraves" writes : >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. There are several answers possible depending on what level of emulation you're looking to do. If the purpose of the emulator is for developing software on one platform before running it on another, an instruction level functional simulation is good because it's fast. For this, just turn the 1s and 0s into native integers and operate on them.[1] For a bit-level emulation, there are several good references for how this can be and sometimes is done. For example Patterson and Hennessy's books are quite good. I've taught out of their Computer Organization and Design: The Hardware/Software Interface and quite like it. If you can't find such a reference, I'll e-mail you the TeX source to a chapter I wrote years ago for my introductory courses. Finally, if you want to do a gate level emulation of a particular machine, then you'll want to get the schematics of the machine and find out exactly how its designers did it. [1] I used to work with digital signal processor (DSP) chips quite a lot. When Analog Devices entered the market with their ADSP-2100, we were interested in it. So I wrote some code to implement a standard voice compression algorithm. Now the test vectors for this represented 2 seconds of real time. The Analog Devices simulator which we ported to BSD Unix ended up taking about 1 week to run this 2 seconds on our VAX 11/750. It did the simulation at a very low level. While it was running, I started developing a new simulator using our simulator-compiler. When it was finished, it ran the 2 second simulation in about 2-3 hours. It simulated the machine at the instruction level. The amusing part of the story is that we were moving from one office to another at about that time. I was beginning to wonder as the move approached whether the first simulation was going to finish in time for us to shut the machine down and move it to the other building. It did BTW and IIRC it had about a day to spare. Brian L. Stuart From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 2 21:53:58 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "right answer" (as told to me by a genius h/w type) was to use a single PAL and a Z8030 - you actually would win by having address lines for all of the chips registers; you had to demux the AD wires, tho. -Mike On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Z8530] > > I will admit that it is not friendly to the MC68K bus. We used one or two > > dedicated PALs to handle the interfacing. Additionally, we had an 8Mhz CPU > > It's not that unfriendly. The PERQ 3a uses half a dozen TTL chips to > fiddle with the 60800 bus signals and turn them into the Z8530 read and > write signals. And one output of a PAL as the address decoder. That's > hardly 'unfriendly'... > > -tony > > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 2 22:19:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L References: Message-ID: <000901bfcd0a$83f67f40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> IF you have a cleaning tape, stick it in there! There's a flash code that it produces when it wants a cleaning tape and it won't do anything when it wants one other than spit out whatever tape you put in there other than a SONY or Exabyte cleaning tape. The drive is VERY fussy about what kind of tapes it accepts. I'd bet it won't accept any of your old handycam cartridges, and, in fact, there are some brands of "data-grade" tapes it will never accept. I don't remember which ones they are, however, since I haven't got any. If you happen to figure out how it senses what kind of tape it has, please let me know. This is still a mystery to me that I'd like to solve. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: classcomp mailing list Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 4:26 PM Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L > Hello, > > Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do > anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > > Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back > as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is > a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:06:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > I bring this up to address the hypothetical situation that 50 years from > now there are not any commonly available CD-ROM drives. I firmly believe > that a small team of graduate students, armed with the relevant technical > specifications, could design and construct a working CD-ROM drive in > under two years. One can still go into thrift stores and pretty regularly find audio players from the 50s and 60s. I would imagine CD players would be just as easy if not more so to find 50 years from now. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:12:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are > keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want > to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison > cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm > film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex See: The Dead Media Project http://www.wps.com/dead-media/index.html Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:29:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII art & scanning techniques discussion on Community Memory Message-ID: One of the Community Memory archives is sprinkled with messages about ASCII art scanning techniques, among other interesting topics: http://memex.org/cm-archive4.html Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Fri Jun 2 23:46:51 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from McFadden, Mike on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:21:16AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000602214650.A4084@electron.quantum.int> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:21:16AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > color fidelity. We have discussed CD-ROM and other digital media. Our goal Doing the transfer from film to digital is no small matter either. I think what the world needs is a "universal film scanner" - a device with a linear CCD and powered rollers to feed the film through, regardless of the spacing of the frames, sprocket holes, size of the film, etc. If you digitize the entire film strip, software could be used to detect the frame boundaries later and even correct for spacing inconsistences which cause the picture to jump around when viewed on a conventional projector. I really want to find or build a scanner like that some day. So far the film scanners I have seen appear to support only the common sizes, and they don't scan arbitrary lengths of film either. > databases, to Access databases. A computer database is no help to try to Access is a kind of "evolving"? Now there's an unstable data storage system if I ever saw one. Especially if (as I suspect) MS keeps changing the file format with every new version like they do with their other Office products. Most likely you'd need the same vintage PC up and running with the same vintage software in order to read the database a few years from now. But I don't know what database system is the most change- resistant. Maybe SQL will continue to exist for a very long time yet, so you could archive the database as a sequence of SQL statements to create the tables and insert the data; that way it's independent of the on-disk format. > figure out why the sewer line was run through my yard and not on the sewer > easement in 1960. Written notes in the ledger help me to understand that the > rock was in the way and that hand digging was easier through my yard. Now > if you want to know why one house is constructed over the water and not on > shore that is another story. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Yep. The world needs a good knowledgebase system too, and more than anything that's the problem I'd like to solve. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jun 3 00:18:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. Is there any way to make it work otherwise? --Chuck From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 3 00:50:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:28:05PM -0400 References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000603015002.A26430@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:28:05PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never >go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from >now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, >there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. I'm not sure the group will be so small -- 74 minutes is already on the high side for an album, I really don't think *any* band would be happy if all their fans expected them to cough up 6 hours of new songs every couple of years! We can already get much higher data density than what's possible with CDs, but for regular pop music purposes there's no real need to improve on CDs. They're physically small enough that they're too easy to lose (I don't know what the heck the minidisk folks are thinking, those things look even more likely to roll under a car seat where you'll never find them), and they hold about as much as would reasonably fit on an LP or cassette anyway. Of course, consumers are sheep so I'm sure audio CDs will be flushed in favor of something else sooner or later, but it will probably be for no good reason. John Wilson D Bit From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jun 3 05:09:36 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> At 04:59 PM 6/2/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >A point to ponder: > >Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian >hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just >undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. > >I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized >documentation. > >How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch >floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are >stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. > >In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or >paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? > >If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they >possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, >encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), >or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, >ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a >close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English >(Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, >Chaucer, etc). > >The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough >information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the >archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't >degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. > >clint Last year some of our local V.I.P'S buried a "time capsule" to be dug up in a hundred years, and which included a VHS tape. While there are hundred year old Edison cylinders around and the equipment to play them on, I doubt they will have much luck with that VHS tape. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 07:14:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@uhura.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000603081457.2240025f@uhura.trailing-edge.com> Sellam wrote: >On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: >> There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are >> keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want >> to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison >> cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm >> film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex >See: > >The Dead Media Project >http://www.wps.com/dead-media/index.html I've looked at their pages, and tried to figure out what they do. They seem to just write about dead media, and they don't actually do anything with it. Is that true? To paraphrase some comedian whose name I forgot, isn't that a lot like writing about dancing but never going dancing? Tim. From CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 08:35:17 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@uhura.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <000603093517.2240025f@uhura.trailing-edge.com> >Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I >put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works >fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it >up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I >know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally >connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. >Is there any way to make it work otherwise? Am I correct, that you don't have a "Power Controller"? A DEC Power Controller is a metal box with one line cord in and many jacks for plugging in accessories, and a contactor (big relay) inside for switching many of the jacks on/off under remote control of the 3-pin plugs/cables. Without a Power Controller, you have no contactor, and no way of remotely switching things on and off. With such a small system, you can probably go to Radio Shack and get one of their power controllers, that works by sensing current draw to one of your boxes and turns the rest on when that one comes on. No, it's not as fancy or as configurable as a DEC power controller, and Radio Shack certainly doesn't have any versions that do 3-Phase at 60 Amps per phase, but it ought to work fine for a small system like yours. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From gaz_k at lineone.net Sat Jun 3 05:28:22 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Internet Radio References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000603015002.A26430@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000601bfcd6a$1a24a5a0$483263c3@gaz> Yesterday I found an old LW/MW radio in a second-hand shop that was labelled an 'Internet Radio' on the box. The radio itself has 'Internet 10' printed on the front and was produced by a company based in Kent, England. From the design it seems to be late 1950s/ early 1960s. Obviously it has nothing to do with the current definition of the Internet but it is still interesting to note the origins of the name and what it was associated with. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From allain at panix.com Sat Jun 3 09:49:25 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle References: <000501bfcccc$9154c630$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <003f01bfcd6a$efb7f0a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I'm also looking > for the October 1971 issue of Esquire magazine that featured the article > with John Draper talking about the "blue box". I know it said email directly but this topic is a little too interesting to do that with. The article mentioned is in Esquire, October 1971. It can be viewed at http://www.webcrunchers.com/crunch/esq-art.html John D. was recently featured in the New York Times: 26-March-2000 which was a near full page covering none other than the Homebrew Computer Club's 25th anniversary. Immensely on-topic, I believe! The books "Digital Deli" and "Hackers" are good references also. The former features an article on John D. written by Steve Wozniak. John A. From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 10:32:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? Yep... build a power controller. :-) For info. about power controllers, look through the archives for the Vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroup from around November, 1995... not sure if they're still on deja-news or not, but I found some articles that I saved from back then containing a thread on power controllers from when the plug on my 871C melted (BTW, DEC actually sent someone to my house to check out the burnt plug... they apparently take (or took) things such as their equipment smouldering rather seriously, even if it's old and used as a hobby by someone with no service contract). A word of caution: it's a good idea to check the plugs, that is the type that are attached to the cable by screws, on power cables every so often to make sure that the screws are tight and the connection is good in order to avoid the fragrance of acrid smoke filling your house. Here's what an 871C looks like, so you have some idea of what one does; thanks to ARD for corrections and reminding me not to use tabs in ASCII drawings. * purple DPDT switch red +-----sw1a--+-sw1b-------------------------------------------------+ | | +-----------------------------------------+ | | orange| c | | | | D1a | +--------------------------------+ +--C4-+ | | | c | | | | | | | - + D2a | | 1 3 1 T1 1| a c | | | +-C2--------|----+ | R2---? ?--+ +------@!!@----D4--+ | | | | | | VR1 | | 2@!!@2| | | | green +-----------|------+ +----?----+--+ | J1-3-@!!@-+------|-----|-|---J2/3-1 | | +-----+6 | a c 2 | | 3@!!@3 a c | | | black chasis 1 +-|o |---+--D3-----+ | | J1-4-@!!@----D5--+ | | |+J2/3-2 gnd. | | | | | (unused) | | | brown +--C3---R1+--| RY1 |-------+ | +--|------------------------+ +-|-J2/3-3 | +---| |---+ | | | | | | +-----+ | +-----|----------------------------+ | J1-1 J1-2--+ | +--------------------------+-----------+ For the diodes, D1 - D5, a=anode, c=cathode MOV1 - GE V150LA10A C1 - 0.1 uF, 270VAC, 1KVDC C2 - 10 uF, 50VDC (electrolytic) C3 - .022 uF, 270VAC, 1KVDC C4 - RVX2247, 50V (.0047uF?) L1 - numbered as 1S00077, appears to be neon light, with built in resistor R1 - 1K ohms, 5 percent tol. R2 - 560 ohms, 5 percent tol. RY1 - reed relay VR1 - 8V regulator, National Semiconductor 932 736 08A (possibly 7808 type) DISCLAIMER: Use the above schematic at your own risk; it's intended as a rough guideline only, for troubleshooting purposes, for those who haven't peeked inside theirs to trace the schematic out yet; don't use this as a reliable guide for repairing or building a power controller! I can't guarantee that no mistakes were made when tracing it out, and if you rely upon it, there's no gurantee that it won't destroy you or your equipment. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 3 10:18:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <001c01bfcd6f$814ffc70$7064c0d0@ajp166> >up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I >know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally >connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. >Is there any way to make it work otherwise? No, you need a 871A power distribution or similar. Lacking that a box with a small DC power, relay and outlets will do as those connectors are simply switches on the BA11 (verify with meter). That why ba-11 has a switch on the front and also on the back. Allison From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jun 3 13:09:16 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 Message-ID: I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance someplace). Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that made the thing user programmable, for example? Is anybody aware of a pre-1979 programable handheld? I suppose something like the HP-65 is a candidate, but an alpha-numeric keyboard and display would be more compelling. Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense at somebody calling it the first PDA? (No, I'm not selling one on eBay. There is one for sale there now -- it's overpriced, though. These things aren't exactly rare.) Thanks, Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 12:41:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 2, 0 08:06:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/be7e1048/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 14:14:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 3, 0 11:32:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8058 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/3cf0ee84/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 13:40:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jun 3, 0 06:09:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3822 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/2af742e2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 12:51:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jun 2, 0 10:18:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2195 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/1658ce08/attachment.ksh From mfhoneycutt at earthlink.net Sat Jun 3 16:50:27 2000 From: mfhoneycutt at earthlink.net (Mark Honeycutt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane Message-ID: <00cd01bfcda5$bbe97380$6402a8c0@laptop.home.net> John, I would really like a copy of any ASCII art files you might have, especially if they are the ones with the embedded overstrike control codes for a Dataproducts band printer. We used to have some files for our Wang system that used a DP printer.. they were really great. They went out the door when the systems were retired about 12 years ago. I now have a MicroVAX II and the DEC version of the B200 DP band printer, so I should be able to run off some good copies on greenbar paper (back side, of course) of any files I can locate. This has been an interest of mine back to the early 70's when a few punch card decks would get passed around that you could run on the IBM that would generate some pretty fair posters for dorm room walls. Thanks to you and the list, Mark Honeycutt mfhoneycutt@earthlink.net -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 3:45 PM Subject: Re: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane >At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate >>bridge and an airplane flying over it: >>It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is >>roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. > >I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from >someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the >largest file: > >FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > >where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be >glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > >By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and >the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. > >- John > From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 3 16:10:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Doug Salot wrote: > I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held > "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also > sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance > someplace). The earliest copyright date I've found on the literature accompanying the plug-in carthridges is 1976 (or 1975...can't remember for sure). > Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that > made the thing user programmable, for example? I have the following language modules: English-Spanish English-French English-German English-Arabic English-Italian And the Calculator module. I've heard before that there was also a Computer module but this is entirely uncomfirmed. > Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense > at somebody calling it the first PDA? I've always considered it such. I'll expect a full report at VCF 4.0 :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:00:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> References: Message-ID: > Last year some of our local V.I.P'S buried a "time capsule" to be >dug up >in a hundred years, and which included a VHS tape. While there are hundred >year old Edison cylinders around and the equipment to play them on, I doubt >they will have much luck with that VHS tape. My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:11:07 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <001c01bfcd6f$814ffc70$7064c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: One of the AC power controllers I see in many small minis is the Paluzzi (sic) anyway they are not uncommon around here 10 miles from the factory in Santa Ana, anything interesting that can be done with one? I really like the idea of computer, or remote controlled AC power management. I have some Sophisticate Circuits PowerKeys, and have been thinking about some kind of serious power control for my HiFi system (lots of juice, and it must be very sweet). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:16:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held >"computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also >sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance >someplace). My Lexicomm was made in Taiwan around 1995, the only older small handhelds I know of are MTS (something like that) and are actually "terminals" used for taking inventory via some small backed up memory. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 3 17:45:33 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000603224533.84840.qmail@hotmail.com> Maybe this is just a sign of how much I mess with computers/don't clean my car, but I've been known to discover 9-track tapes that slid down there in transport a long time back under my seat... Not to mention that there are assorted IBM System/36 parts under my passenger seat as we speak... The last time I cleaned my car, I found an Apollo Pascal manual I didn't even know I owned, heh.. So I dunno, for me, media would have to be around 36-48 inches across to not disappear sometimes.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 3 18:22:38 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:00:43PM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <20000603192238.A28198@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:00:43PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has >LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. I know the feeling ... in December I phoned my old grade school to find out what the plan was for digging up the time capsule we buried around 1974 or so, to be opened in the year 2000, and it was long gone. Evidently they'd expanded the school building and dug up that area at some point. They're pretty sure someone found the time capsule during the excavation and put it safely in a storage shed, but the shed later burned down (there's a housing project next door so everything gets vandalized sooner or later). Way to go! It wasn't a very well-thought-out plan to begin with, we should have specified "*summer* 2000", because on Jan. 1 the ground would have been frozen anyway. John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 19:51:35 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have dumps of the proms too... Still looking for them though. clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > > schematic somewhere? > > I posted the list of chips (actually, all 8 chips on the disk interface > card) yesterday. There's a schematic in the back of the Apple ][ DOS > manual. But be warned that much of the cleverness is hidden inside 2 > PROMs (one contains the disk bootstrap software, the other, together with > a latch, forms a state machine to decode the pulses off the disk). So a > schematic doesn't tell you that much. > > -tony > > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 20:09:19 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with most of what you are saying with one key point: How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their children will collect them? I believe the number of people interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! CDs are already on the way out. They have been replaced by MP3 players which store the same number of minutes of music on a much smaller flash memory chip. DataPlay.com has announced a US Quarter (.75 inch?) diameter rewritable disc player and media (hope they fail, they didn't offer me a job!). In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, but probably not in working condition. CDs have a limited lifetime, (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. The information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable format until your grad students build a reader. clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > > is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM > > drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the > > next generation of optical drives? > > I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never > go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from > now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, > there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. > These people will be the audio types that will want to be able to hear > many of the pieces of music being recorded today. Remember, many of > artists that will be viewed as gods in ten years are nobodies today, but > recording on CDs. There will be plenty of people that will want to get > early recordings, and will keep the technology alive. > > There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are > keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want > to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison > cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm > film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex > than these, but they are well documented, and there will be spares for a > very long time. And, as Eric states, it would be very possible for someone > with enough resources (academic, for example) to produce a reader. I would > venture to say that a well educated skilled tinker could make one. Older > precision tools are getting quite easy to obtain these days, and it was > those very tools that made the first players. > > As for 7 track tapes, well, speak up, Tim. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 20:11:56 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, I have a few extra DEC power controllers, with the outlets and the 3 plug do-hickey's. Contact me OL if you want one (or two)... clint PS anybody can contact me if they want one... standard 1.2 * shipping On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? > > --Chuck > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 3 20:51:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:00:43 -0800) References: Message-ID: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> > My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has > LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they remember but the capsules are no longer present? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 3 20:57:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000604015729.31971.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > CDs have a limited lifetime, > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. I can't let that one pass! :-) I have some 17-year-old CDs, and they still play just fine. Aside from physical damage due to mishandling, the main failure mode is oxidation of the aluminum layer, which results from oxygen leaking through the lacquer on the label side of the disk, or the lacquer being defective. The *shortest* projected CD (not CD-R) lifetime which I've seen in quoted in a technical paper, assuming that the CD is manufatured properly, kept in a reasonably controlled environment, and not physically damaged, was 70 years. This was based on accelerated aging. Kodak's white paper on their CD-R media documents their accelerated aging study which leads them to project *conservatively* a 100 year lifetime. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 3 21:00:00 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their > children will collect them? Lots more than you think! Of course, many more will start collecting when they get older. > I believe the number of people > interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will > decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! No, not at all. The multi-billion dollar antiques market say "no". A certain number of people will always like the past and support it. > In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's > aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, > but probably not in working condition. A few will work, and that's what counts. > CDs have a limited lifetime, > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs that use them) with a far less stable tracking mechanism,but they track and play just fine. The bit about CDs dying prematuring is a bunch of balloon juice. While by no means a great archival solution, they are remarkably stable when treated properly. > CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. That is a fault of the users. CDs are actually very easy to keep scratch-free, but it does take some discipline (like using the jewel boxes that way they were designed). > The > information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten > years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, > group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable > format until your grad students build a reader. The 'small, religious groups' are also remarkably long-lived, and actually have professional associations and such. They know the problems with old media, and are actually doing work on it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 3 21:08:36 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jun 4, 0 01:51:16 am" Message-ID: <200006040208.TAA15032@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has ::> LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. :: ::Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they ::remember but the capsules are no longer present? Probably the former. It's all the smog in Corona and every other flippin' place in the Inland Empire that does it. (disgruntled San Bernardino resident who wants to go back home to San Diego) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 21:09:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000603220916.20200fd1@trailing-edge.com> >Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first >generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well >today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a >old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs >that use them) I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, but that counts, right?) For old-music-CD's, who here remembers the "Preemphasis" bit? I've got a player that indicates that status on the display, though the only CD I have that uses it is a special test disk. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:25:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their Well, most kids today appaently don't really have any idea what music is (even though they listen to what they somehow believe to be music), so that's a good question. (<- a sign that RDD's getting old?) > children will collect them? I believe the number of people > interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will > decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! In all seriousness, at least some of them will, that is, those who appreciate a wide range of music. I tend to listen to anything from classical to rock (up to the 1980's, that is, before most of it turned to noise), county, celtic, etc... even some old Frank Sinatra, Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass, Doris Day, various artists on 78 RPM records, etc. After all, music that some people grew up listening to as a child, if they enjoyed it, they'll want to keep it, which probably means keeping the media it's on, particularly if there's enough of it to make converting it, or buying new copies if available, a nuisance. Besides, after listening to both the CD and LP versions of some music, there were cases where the LP. even when not in perfect condition, sounded much better - less harsh... of course, the opposite holds true as well in some cases. > CDs are already on the way out. They have been replaced by MP3 > players which store the same number of minutes of music on a > much smaller flash memory chip. DataPlay.com has announced a > US Quarter (.75 inch?) diameter rewritable disc player and media This change is idiotic; like someone else (John Wilson?) said, it's already easy enough to lose a CD compared to an LP, and a much smaller disc would be even worse. Will they eliminate the liner notes, or just supply a magnifying glass for them? When one purchases a record or CD, one expects to be able to listen to it for many decades, and to keep changing formats in a way that will make other formats obsolete isn't good. At least, for many years, turntables could play 16, 33-1/3, 45 and 78 RPM records. > In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's > aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, > but probably not in working condition. CDs have a limited lifetime, Yes, Edison's recording system was at least better designed so that it would last longer. > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. Wow, you mean someone else besides me is saying that "CD-Rot" is a real possibility? > CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. The > information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten > years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, > group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable > format until your grad students build a reader. One would think that society, if it was sensible, would be trying to replace them with a more durable format, but then, we live in a wasteful throw-away society. For example, look at the morons trying to convert books from paper to "e-books;" why the men with white coats and nets are chasing after the proponents of e-books, I just don't understand. The company I used to work for, that puts many well-known scientific and medical journals on the WWW, wasn't at all interested in ways of preserving the data, and ignored my ideas for ways that they could work with libraries, etc. to not only preserve, but ensure that the data wasn't changed over time after publication... one of their clients would request changes to the content of material already published, and they'd comply! So short-sighted; blasted bizdroids. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:37:30 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <000603220916.20200fd1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > but that counts, right?) Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:54:36 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > At one time the DEC power controllers (they're not really sequencers) > were easy enough to find at radio rallies, etc. They're pretty generic Of course, one could find inexpensive test equipment (e.g. < $15 for tektronix 'scopes and HP frequency counters), interesting and inexpensive computers, etc. at hamfests... it was so much fun before the people who just want to collect, and not play with, computers began calling themselves "computer collectors" and started snapping stuff up quickly and then only letting it go at high prices. > (there are no Unibus or Qbus versions :-)), so something like an 861 or > an 871 would work fine. Have these units now attracted E-overpay prices? Thus far, I've not seen any on E-bilk. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 3 22:19:06 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> At 11:27 PM 6/2/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of >finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are >still some around, but they aren't commonplace. It would be interesting to compare the number of 78 RPM records ever made to the number of data CD made, for example. As for finding CD-ROM readers, I'm sure the surplus places will have pristine in-shrink-wrap ones on the shelf, in the same way you can still buy surplus from WW II. - John From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 23:34:54 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > finding CD-ROM readers, I'm sure the surplus places will have > pristine in-shrink-wrap ones on the shelf, in the same way > you can still buy surplus from WW II. That's not to say the odds are as good of them working as WWII surplus still working. A radio from that era was a far more durable piece of equipment (aside from the chance of tube (valve) breakage from improper handling and capacitors, or condensors as they called them back then, going bad) than a CD-ROM drive with all it's miniaturization and parts that probably won't handle years and years of thermal fluctuations very well and thin plastic parts that may become brittle and break, etc. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 01:55:44 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <200006040655.CAA18537@world.std.com> >Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using >a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest >you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. I'm interested... I have a couple of Casio CZ-101s that I would love to drive using the pdp-11. Allison modified a DLV11-J for me years ago so that I could control some devices... but as I am moving my entire collection to storage (my partner and I are looking into getting a house with a garage and basement so I can have a real museum), I'm not sure where it is right now. Also, years ago I built a device with several of the TI Sound Generation Controllers on it, controlled by a DL11-C. I had some software which played the music files produced by the music compliler written at Stanford. I still have the device, though I've misplaced the schematics for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Jun 4 02:44:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:00:43 -0800) Message-ID: >> My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has >> LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. > >Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they >remember but the capsules are no longer present? Full story at, snip below. http://www.oglethorpe.edu/itcs/wanted.htm THE NINE MOST WANTED TIME CAPSULES 3. Corona, California, Time Capsules. The City of Corona seems to have misplaced a series of 17 time capsules dating back to the 1930s. Efforts to recover the capsules in 1986 were in vain. "We just tore up a lot of concrete around the civic center, "said the chairman of the town's centennial committee. A Los Angeles Times reporter has called Corona "the individual record holder in the fumbled time capsule category." From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Jun 4 04:51:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jun 02, 2000 09:55:16 AM Message-ID: <200006040951.CAA07002@eskimo.com> > > >Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > > ^^^^ > >Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? > >I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell > >under the designation of "AppleSoft". > > "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. As Eric said, that was a bit of revisionism (or at least sweeping history under the carpet). My cynicism makes me suspect it was doen knowingly and shamelessly, but I have no proof. And speaking of revisionism: Apple has reabsorbed Claris (the relationship between Apple and Claris is surely a fascinating story in itself) and ClarisWorks is now called Appleworks. Never mind that the original AppleWorks runs on the ][ and //gs (and AFAIK before that, the III, and bought from another company too). Even "Claris" is an in-joke. The dogcow (another in-joke) is named Clarus. I'm sure that's not a coincidence. -- Derek From flo at rdel.co.uk Sun Jun 4 07:14:15 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <393A4817.B222F43E@rdel.co.uk> Could anyone help me out by looking up some programming information for a DEC LQP02 or LQP03, please? I'm working from an LN03 manual that happens to mention that the following control sequences exist on letter-quality printers, but it doesn't give details. I'd like to know how to invoke: DECFIL (Right Justification) DECFPP (Positioning) DECPSPP (Print Specified Printwheel Position) DECPTS (Printwheel Table Select) DECSS (Set Space Size) DECUND (Programmable Underline Character) While I'm on the subject, I see that the Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84 entry for the LQP02 says that it prints "32 char/s (letter-quality, Shannon text)". Does "Shannon text" mean anything to anyone? Cheers, Paul From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 4 09:13:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <000604101346.20200efd@trailing-edge.com> >While I'm on the subject, I see that the Terminals and Printers Handbook >1983-84 entry for the LQP02 says that it prints "32 char/s >(letter-quality, Shannon text)". Does "Shannon text" mean anything to >anyone? Maybe this just shows that I'm too much of a crypto geek, but anyway: "Shannon text" means that the letters are distributed in a way typical for English-language plain text. i.e. the typical ETAOIN... distribution. Depending on the context, it may also imply a "typical" distribution of word lengths too. This actually matters for chain printers (where you can choose a subset of letters that go on the print chain and get better performance), but it's not such a big deal for dot-matrix or laser printers which tend to print at the same speed (until something overheats, at least) no matter what. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From transit at lerctr.org Sun Jun 4 09:55:49 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Computer music (was: Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > > but that counts, right?) > > Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using > a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest > you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. > I don't know about PDP's, but when I was at UCSB, a "computer music" class was offered, using "Csound" software running on VAXen. In 84-85, they used part of one the Computer Science Department's machines (a VAX 11/780 running Unix). Csound required its own disk drive, to keep the sound from being chopped up by other processes goin on in that machine. It also had its own version of Unix commands (for example, instead of mv or rm, you'd say mvsf or rmsf, again because of the specific demands of the csound software). About a year later, the Music Department got its own VAX. They switched to individual Suun workstations a year or two after I had left in 1987. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 08:52:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <00d001bfce31$597f0840$7064c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Williams To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:21 AM Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers >Could anyone help me out by looking up some programming information for >a DEC LQP02 or LQP03, please? I'm working from an LN03 manual that >happens to mention that the following control sequences exist on >letter-quality printers, but it doesn't give details. Because the LQP 02/03 use different sequences from the later LA series dotmatrix printer that can do them. You will need manuals for LQP02 and 03 for a detailed descritption as by time the ln03 was sold those old LQPs were gone. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 10:30:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 3, 0 10:19:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/776f6ae7/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 09:35:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Computer music (was: Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000001bfce3e$53a2b6d0$7864c0d0@ajp166> >I don't know about PDP's, but when I was at UCSB, a "computer Sounds like I need to drag out my Gigolo package which is a soundboard and some fo the software for Qbus. It would work for microvax but I dont have any drivers for that. The basic board is a pair of AY-mumble sounds chips from GI. What I need now (or to do) is a composition to performance compiler that would allow editing input and running it for the ear. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 09:47:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <000101bfce3e$547289f0$7864c0d0@ajp166> >This actually matters for chain printers (where you can choose a subset >of letters that go on the print chain and get better performance), but it's >not such a big deal for dot-matrix or laser printers which tend to print >at the same speed (until something overheats, at least) no matter what. LQP02/3 being daisy wheel and obeying the rules of inerta and acceleration are like band printers in that some sequences will print slower (less than max speed). The is especially true if the carriage positioning commands are used. So speed specs used a standard text and line width so that comparison could be made. Allison Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Jun 4 12:27:25 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Available FT: DEC PDP boards Message-ID: <20000604122725.I25040@mrbill.net> (I first posted this a while back, and was talking with someone about a trade, but I havent heard from him in almost two weeks now... Dave,if you're still interested, please get in touch with me ASAP) I've got the following assortment of PDP-11 boards and CPUs that have been sitting around for a few months; I'd like to see them go to a good home. Trades preferred; I'm looking for a small VAX to play with VMS on (MicroVAX 3100 or so), or other DEC parts (TKZ30, RRD42 cdrom drive, any VT3xx/VT4xx terminals...). Will consider any offers; I hate to have these lying around unused. Marked on handle: Other markings/desc: ----------------------------------------------- M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) I've got some other cards as well, but this is all I can find for now. If anybody's interested in these, please let me know. Bill (maintainer of www.pdp11.org / www.decvax.org) -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 4 13:25:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server Message-ID: Greetings, Would any list members happen to be familiar with a terminal server sold by BlackBox that was oroginally manufactured by Racal-Datacomm, model No. BTS-100? A while back, I obtained one of these, but I can't seem to get it to work by connecting a terminal to the console port; I've tried data rates between 300 and 19,200, and nothing; also tried a few other ports. Something tells me that the best thing to do is reset the server to the default settings, but I'm not sure how to do this; no reset switch inside, but there is is a jumper inside that I'm going to try changing next. Any ideas for sources of documentation? The manufacturer and black box consider it ancient and can't help. Also, is anyone her familiar with the apparently not-so-rare defect in Emulex Performance 4000 terminal servers that causes a short circuit? I'm told by Emulex that they have an idea what the problem is, as a certain something is known to go bad in these units, but they refuse to tell me as I'm not an authorized repair center. Short of unsoldering surface mount ICs, I've disconnected and removed everything that I can find to disconnect and remove, and the short on the circuit board remains. The PSU seems ok when I apply other loads to it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun Jun 4 14:59:29 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue and Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 References: Message-ID: <001101bfce5f$65d5f940$aac6fea9@franois> Adding to the list: > I have the following language modules: > > English-Spanish > English-French > English-German > English-Arabic > English-Italian English-Portugese (LK-3110) Electronic Notepad (LK-3500) Information Module: Winter olympics / Olympic records (LK-0280) Calculator (LK-3900) Francois From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 14:54:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 4, 0 02:25:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/3c3a833c/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 15:48:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That's not to say the odds are as good of them working as WWII surplus > still working. A radio from that era was a far more durable piece of > equipment (aside from the chance of tube (valve) breakage from > improper handling and capacitors, or condensors as they called them > back then, going bad) than a CD-ROM drive with all it's > miniaturization and parts that probably won't handle years and years > of thermal fluctuations very well and thin plastic parts that may > become brittle and break, etc. ????? While the military radios back then certainly were built tobe more durable, they do not age well at all.Simply put, materials just were not very good back then - ask any chemist or metalurgist (sp?). The plastics are horrid, the rubbers are just as bad. Paper has a huge acid content, and metals often are laced with impurities. In contrast, modern plastics and rubbers are incredibly stable, the acid content in paper has gone down, and metals are more pure. Many of these changes can be traced back to the space industry, so these meterials have quite a few years of "real world testing" under their belt, and are coming out champs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 16:05:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 04:48:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2477 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/968e7f4b/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 16:52:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yes, the plastics made 60 years ago were poor. But they weren't used for > everything from cabinets to gears to chassis to bearings to... Those > parts were made of metal back then. And yes, there have been impurity > problems with metals (the well-know 'pot metal' for example). But a brass > gear, as used in clocks for the last 400 years, and as used in the tuning > drives of WW2 radios will outlast the cheap plastic gears in a modern > unit. Period. Question mark, followed by exclamation mark. Look up "season cracking". And find me a Hallicrafters S-meter in one piece. If its brass that has any impurities in it, internal (and external) stresses will crack it. Gears are fairly immune if they have been cut from free machining brass, but stamped gears are time bombs. If the brass was cold worked, it pretty much has a death sentence, with the day of execution determined by the quality of the metal. The point is that today's brass (and other metals) is far better than yesterday's, and will outlast it greatly. Season cracking is a restoration nightmare, as there really is nothing that can stop or repair it. Anyway, comparing poor quality brass to excellent stability plastic gearing is an apples to oranges comparison. > Point is, consumer-grade equipment is not > built like that. That's not the issue. If anything, I am in 100 percent agreement. > It uses the cheapest possible materials, even when > they're not really suitable. Or perhaps you could explain why my 1972 > Philips N1500 VCR (almost entirely metal inside) is still going strong > with only 1 set of new belts and a repair to a loading pulley, whereas a 5 > year old machine has already got through 4 sets of idlers, pinch rollers, > belts and a head drum. Of course a 1972 VCR will be built well! Back then, they cost lots of money, and Philips would lose favor in the market if they did build them cheaply. > The other issue is repairability. I don't expect to be able to pick up a > WW2 unit, untouched since the day it was made, turn it on, and use it. > But I know that I could _repair_ a unit made back then. Yes, capacitors > will have broken down. Rubber-insulated wire will need replacing. But > that's not a particularly difficult problem to solve. Well, this is also not the issue, and I pretty much agree here as we... > Now try the same thing with a CD ROM drive in 50 years time. I don't > expect it to work after 50 years, sure. But just try fixing it. It's a > lot harder (some would say impossible) than a WW2 radio. The 50 year old CD-ROM will likely need far less in the repair department, because most (all?) of the parts will be just as good as the day they were born. Remember, we are talking about dealing with unused (or little used) equipment, not readers that have spent a few years in the computers of teenagers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 17:30:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 05:52:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5854 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/dd548e98/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 4 18:08:05 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000604230805.22748.qmail@hotmail.com> Don't forget the fact that LP's and 7 inches (45's) are still being pressed today... I ought to know, since I buy some of em... I have about 80 something records of all types, and about 50-60 of them were pressed in the last 5-7 years. Now if only they made blank recordable 8-tracks still, I want to record some music from CD on 8 track so I can listen to it in my car.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mark_k at iname.com Sun Jun 4 19:58:27 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs Message-ID: Hi, This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining classic stuff, so... Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into another device. I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), and heating until the solder melts? It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too long. In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I hope is high enough. Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the pads). -- Mark From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 4 19:12:39 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000604201239.0144e2fc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:54 PM 6/4/00 +0100, you wrote: >If all else fails you could desolder and lift the power pin on each IC. >And then check the resistance between the lifted power pin and ground. >Hopefully you'll find the shorted IC fairly quickly. > >-tony This is the sort of situation where an HP 547A current tracer becomes very handy. No desoldering needed. It may be necessary to feed the board from an alternate, current-limited supply. carlos. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jun 4 20:19:59 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000604181812.029544e0@208.226.86.10> You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift it off. --Chuck At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ From cube1 at home.com Sun Jun 4 17:54:48 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000604171225.05d51600@cirithi> On my older systems you also needed "loopback" plugs at each end (at least I have that on my 11/20, where one of the two connectors on the 11/20 has a plug connecting pins 2 and 3, and at the far end is a plug connecting pins 1 and 2. I just did a little test. I checked my Microvax, a BA23. It puts 555 ohms between pins 1 and 3. Also, if I short pins 1 and 3 on the BA11K holding my 11/34, (or an H720 power supply), it turns it on. So, maybe you can try anyway -- probably would not hurt to try running the 3 wire cable between the BA23 (my MicroVAX BA23's have nothing in pin 2, by the way) and the BA11 (top connector). As an initial test, you could plug your BA11 in, and connect pin 1 to pin 3 and see if it turns it on. Of course, you would not get the "Ground for Off" automatic shutdown capability, but it looks like the BA23 wasn't set up for that anyway, at least on mine. Jay At 06:51 PM 6/3/00 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? > >At one time the DEC power controllers (they're not really sequencers) >were easy enough to find at radio rallies, etc. They're pretty generic >(there are no Unibus or Qbus versions :-)), so something like an 861 or >an 871 would work fine. Have these units now attracted E-overpay prices? > >The other possibility is to make your own power controller. They're not >that complex. The 3 pins on the connector are : > >Ground >Ground-for-off >Ground-for-on > >The 'truth table' is : >Ground-for-off Ground-for-on Power controller relay >Floating Floating Off >Floating Grounded On >Grounded Floating Off >Grounded Grounded Off > >Oh yes, these signals can be at up to 24V, and the supply is sourced by >the power controller. > >Conventionally, in the CPU box, a contact on the power switch, or a >transistor in the PSU, is connected between Ground and Ground-for-on. >Turning on the CPU grounds Ground-for-on and turns on the power >controller relay. This then powers up the rest of the system. >Overheat-protection switches are wired between Ground and Ground-for-off. >If any one of those trips, it turns off every power controller in the system. > >A few mounting boxes (the BA11-K is the most common one) have their own >built-in mini-power-controller for just that box. If you string the >3-wire cables between them, set the toggle switch on the back to >'remote' and plug them all into the mains then turning on the CPU will >turn on the other boxes. But most mounting boxes don't work like this :-( > >I notice Bob Davis has posted some schematics of a power controller, so I'll >comment further there. > >-tony --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 21:14:20 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But plastic gears, at least the plastic gears found in consumer-grade > stuff will crack as well due to said external forces. Modern plastics _do_not_ suffer from mechanical and dimensional stability. They will not just "go bad" due to age, like older plastics and brasses. > Perhaps I've been very lucky, but it all my years of repairing machinery > I have _never_ found a metal gear/pulley/etc that's suffered in this way. > Stripped teeth, sure. Wear due to lack of lubrication, sure. But not > stress-induced cracks. You've been lucky. Also, keep in mind that many of these cracks can not be seen, and do lead to teeth being easily stripped. > Yes, but the problem is that the gears in modern units are not made of > 'today's brass'. Or 'yesterday's brass'. They are made of today's > plastic, often a cheap-n-nasty plastic. A plastic that cracks if you look > at it wrongly, if it gets one drop of oil on it, or whatever. No! As stated before, modern plastics are not cheap-and-nasty. In 50 years they will be the same as they are today. If gears are used improperly, maybe beyond their capabilities (too thin, poorly formed teeth), that's a design issue, and they will wear out. So will the finest brass gears. But my last point about using a found CD-ROM 50 years from now in fairly _unused_ condition is important, as any wear inducing design flaws will not have been given to chance to work their evil. > Yes, that is the issue. We're considering what will be available in 50 > years time (or whatever). And most consumer-grade stuff simply won't be. Certainly it will, it small caches (or singles) found in warehouses, estate sales, hackers that never threw the stuff away, etc.. No, they probably won't be so common that they could be found in days in any city, but they will be far from unobtainable. > Perhaps you can name a single CD-ROM drive that's built with 'today's > brass' and 'today's stable plastics'. And which comes with as much > internal data as you find in 60-year-old Hallicrafters/RCA/etc repair > manuals. If the things work (or most of them - hell, even if the survival rate is just 10 percent in 50 years), no repair manuals will be needed. If you get a bum unit with no manual, go to the next one and see if it works. You will get a good one. > Again you're missing the point. I don't doubt that an expensive unit > today would last even longer than the 28 years that my N1500 has gone. > But there simply aren't any such units about (Every VCR I have looked in > recently has had a much poorer build quality than that N1500). There may > be a few 'professional models that will last, but from what I've seen of > other equipment, I doubt that. You have to compare the N1500 to today's high end and professional models, and not the regular stuff. Your N1500 was far from "commercial grade made for the masses". > It very much is the issue if you want a workign unit in 50 years time. > Nobody realistically expects to take a 50-year-old unit off the shelf and > turn it on. We expect to have to do minor repairs. And why will all 50 year old CD-ROMs go automatically bad? Will it be because of the materials of the chassis changing? Well, no, not really. Will it be because of the chips going bad? Well, some will, but certainly not all (no fineline geometries here). Will it be because of corrosion? Well, certainly some, but many will be found in a stable environment. Will the lubrication go bad? No, modern lubricants are very stable (easy to change, anyway). Will the motor go bad? Probably not - motor technolgy is quite mature. So exactly what do you think is the aspect that will damn all CD-ROMs to a broken state 50 years from now? > Well, while it may take a lot less time to change one ASIC than to recap > an old radio, I doubt it's going to be as easy to get the parts. If they are not bad, why replace? Why assume that every chip will have gone bad? > You seem to think that old brass gears in the tuning drive of said old > radio might well develop stress cracks. You're probably right. But > cutting gears is well within the capability of a well-equipped home > workshop. Makeing undocumented ASICs certainly isn't. There will be plenty of donors. > Seriously, what has that got to do with it? Running the unit may cause > wear on mechanical bits, but surely it shouldn't start a process that > causes the unit to die, any sooner than it would have done, when powered off > and packed away. If it does, then why doesn't the factory burn-in test > start this decay process? The decay due to time alone is getting _very_ minimal, thanks to the modern materials. Use is the thing that will kill these units, far faster than time alone. "No use" results in "very little decay". "Daily use" results in "quick fatigue". William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Jun 4 17:21:40 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006050221.e552LUc27637@admin.cgocable.net> > From: Mark > To: classiccmp > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:58:27 +0000 > Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Hi, > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? Get a old heavy alumium baking pan and start cooking on electric or gas. Heat on high starting with piece of solder wire dabbling the pan till solder melts and balls up then turn low bit towards medium. Wait for few minutes, then tap the chips you want to take till it is free and pick them up with tweezers or needle long nose pliers. I often find the melting point of solder is hot enough even on low on any stoves. Warning: It will smell if heat is too high. For those dual SOJ or gull wing (not the quad SOJ/gullwing kind), I take two 40W solder irons (grounded) and melt excessive solder acts as heat capacity to keep solder molten and keep moving both solder together. Till chip is loose then pinch the chip with the solder iron tips quickly lift up and let it drop on the metal or cardboard. Clean leads up with fresh blob of solder dragged across them by holding the chip vertical using gravity and surface torison do the work. I do that same for installing all SOJ and gull wing pitch of .025 by tacking two leads down to hold it in place and solder excessively then drag the blob, solder will want to leave the leads and try to run off at the last pin but you can prevent it when moving the solder tip carefully. > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. All cooking of any types are hot enough, over 500F on high without water load. Heated metals that are glowing red and orange ia over 1000F and bit more. Because of this glow the water has very high specific heat capacity and that takes so much heat to bring it to boil quickly and keep it there. Oh yes can melt cheap aluminum spun thin pots with a stove. I had this happen few times. Without warning too. Look at burned buses and airplaces, aluminum melted because fire is hot enough. > -- Mark Wizard From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 4 22:50:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <001801bfcea1$2d4de780$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The blowtorch has served me well in this context. When a board is not important to you and the components are, it's possible to do that with a propane torch of the inexpensive variety. It's important that they put out considerable heat, however. I've found my Weller butane torch to be not terribly useful in this regard. You can use a typical butane torch of the type you normally use to solder copper plumbing to heat the component leads, and quickly if that's possible. I often char the board but if you make the traces come off along with the IC, you're probably overdoing it. Normally, I heat the board from the component side in the case of surface mounted parts, knocking it against the table. Unless you really want to make yourself sick, this is best done outdoors. Afterward, in fact, immediately afterward, it's advisable to toss your clothing worn during this process into the laundry. A shower will relieve the pungent odor, somewhat garlic-like that you'll put out for the rest of the time before your next ablution. My luck has been remarkably good using this technique, but there have been occasions when it wasn't so good. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark To: classiccmp Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:58 PM Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs > Hi, > > This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining > classic stuff, so... > > > Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board > undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into > another device. > > I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the > board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off > when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? > > It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. > Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on > the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too > long. > > In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. > > > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. > > Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? > > > > I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount > components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the > pads). > > > -- Mark > From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 4 22:52:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: <4.3.1.2.20000604181812.029544e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <002601bfcea1$8683bbe0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The solder wick method can work, but one is tempted to lift up on the pins to pop the part loose, which will deform them forever. If you're better at it than I am, you might succeed with that method. The gull-wing parts I've used after using this extraction method have always been a source of trouble, needing special care to solder them into a new application. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that > is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a > very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the > pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift it > off. > --Chuck > > > At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: > >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 4 22:11:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > The thing about WW2 surplus is that most of it uses standard components > that are still either easy to find today or easy to make using relatively > simple tools. For example just about the only bits in my AR88 receiver > that I couldn't go out and buy would be the transformers. And it's not > that difficult to rewind a transformer at home. The ex-military technical > manuals are very complete, and are not hard to find reprints of. This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jun 4 23:20:48 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 04, 2000 08:11:05 PM Message-ID: <200006050420.WAA28120@calico.litterbox.com> > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as > child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet receiver. *sigh* You're making me want to get my 1940 philco working again. I need to replace the filter caps, at least. It hums. Also need to clean the tuner. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 00:01:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Yes and no. The HF ("shortwave") radio equipment was nothing new to the amateur radio people. The tubes were all standard parts, manuals were very complete, and the stuff was cheap enough that a few experiments could go wrong. VHF radio was a bit different, but quite a few guys went on and got the stuff to mostly work. Anything with microwaves generally left the hams scratching their heads and giving up. Radar components and UHF radios used tubes seldom or never seen in the public sector (I have a magnetron actually marked "secret" - in 1943 that was _very_ secure). Waveguides and tuned stubs just "look like" they shouldn't work. The TV guided glide bomb stuff had dozens more tubes than anything seen by the hams. Most of the manuals for these systems were classified and never were released. There were, however, enough people that did play with these new technologies, and did things they only dreamed about before the war. As for standard parts, the (few) Germans had the best deal. Their surplus (after the war, although technically/politically it was Allied property) used very standardized parts, almost to the point of being wasteful. It meant, however, that a German ham could cobble up something easily, and true to the German tradition, the radios (and radars) were extremely well engineered. The American hams also had it good - quality surplus at dirt cheap prices, much of it never used. The U.S. tube system was very standardized, and most hams could get things to work quite easily with no real worries about parts. The British were next on the ladder - once again, lots of cheap surplus, but not quite as nice as the German or U.S. stuff. The government tube system certainly led to headaches (it is complex, to say the least), but British hams were no slouches adapting things to work, or finding what they needed. The Japanese...well...less said the better. Even the Japanese fighter and bomber pilots preffered _not_ to have the radios in their planes. > Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as > child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. I think so. Most importantly, they will have tools that are fantasy today. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 00:09:33 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006050420.WAA28120@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made > from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go > together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet > receiver. The really are no WW2 civilian radios (very few were made). People had to do with what they had before the war, until the surplus floodgate opened in 1946. Hams were shut down during the war - some even "persuaded" to sell or donate their receivers to the government (in 1941, U.S. military electronics was a crying shame). Nearly all TV development stopped and turned over to the government. In general - a bad time to be a hacker. You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 5 00:33:06 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: <002601bfcea1$8683bbe0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: The classic way of removing SOJ parts is to use two soldering irons and a big blob of solder on both rows of pins. The solder blobs heat all the pins simultaneously and the chip can be slid right off. Also, you'll be removing the chip without damage -and- you can easily clean up the PC pads to install a new chip. It's a great Silicon Valley hack I've see here performed many times. -Mike On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The solder wick method can work, but one is tempted to lift up on the pins > to pop the part loose, which will deform them forever. If you're better at > it than I am, you might succeed with that method. The gull-wing parts I've > used after using this extraction method have always been a source of > trouble, needing special care to solder them into a new application. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck McManis > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:19 PM > Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > > > > You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that > > is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a > > very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the > > pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift > it > > off. > > --Chuck > > > > > > At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: > > >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically > SOJ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 5 00:57:15 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 05, 2000 01:09:33 AM Message-ID: <200006050557.XAA28505@calico.litterbox.com> > > > What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made > > from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go > > together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet > > receiver. > > The really are no WW2 civilian radios (very few were made). People had to > do with what they had before the war, until the surplus floodgate opened > in 1946. Hams were shut down during the war - some even "persuaded" to > sell or donate their receivers to the government (in 1941, U.S. military > electronics was a crying shame). Nearly all TV development stopped and > turned over to the government. > > In general - a bad time to be a hacker. > > You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were > made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. Yup, that's what I'm thinking of. I've dealt with two tube radios, one of which is now gone, sadly. One was a 4 tube 1945 sears radio, and one is my 1940 philco, which I *think* is a 5 tube unit that gets AM and shortwave. Last time I had it working I was getting the BBC in London with it, and a few other big powerful shortwave stations on the other side of the atlantic. I've since been given a quite powerful modern receiver and it's just not as much fun. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 5 04:10:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <393B8AB0.5937.1F4678DC@localhost> > I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held > "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also > sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance > someplace). Although everybody honores Nixdorf, the LK 3000 is only an OEM Produkt, and Lexicon (whoever this is, no data) is the original designer/manufacturer. Also for the Dates, the Lexicon LK debuted in late 1978, While the Nixdorf version has first been seen (in Germany) around late 1979 (I checked some old magazines). > Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that > made the thing user programmable, for example? Lots of language modules, mainly English<->xxx and German<->xxx (More English than German Modules have been availabel - I have to take a look at some lists back home. Also two special informational Modules for the Olympics (English), and a statistics package. I have an unfinished project floating around to document the LK 3000... > Is anybody aware of a pre-1979 programable handheld? I suppose something > like the HP-65 is a candidate, but an alpha-numeric keyboard and display > would be more compelling. AFAIR there has been something from Casio ... I'll have to check. > Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense > at somebody calling it the first PDA? Jep, I would, a PDA is a bit more than a fixed (ROM) programmable device. Also there have been other 'translator' type thingies. > (No, I'm not selling one on eBay. There is one for sale there now -- it's > overpriced, though. These things aren't exactly rare.) :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wrm at ccii.co.za Mon Jun 5 10:04:46 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Woz and his (give or take) six chips Message-ID: <200006051504.NAA13312@ccii.co.za> Mike Cheponis needs to know... http://www.retro.co.za/apple/ W From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 5 07:42:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: my hack is a bit cleaner... Two weller or ungar elements with various sized screw on blocks of copper that have been shaped for the job of heating both sides at once mounted in a handle that is adjustable. Workes well for boards being repaird. for non working board and salvage parts I tourch them off directly or use some tooled copper to heat specific parts. Years of stripping salvage for choice transistors and what not gained me good practice. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 5 07:53:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006050557.XAA28505@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > > You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were > > made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. Basic lineup for the common 5 tube Am reciever that was of average performance. Over the years I've delt with dozens of recivers and not a few transmitters many of which are post WWII and pre transistor and I've found them pretty standardized in and well built or very cheap depending on intended market. Common problems were failed paper caps, Electrolytics dried up and rubber insulation dead from time and heat. All of which were easy to fix. The occasional mechanical problem was often dried/dead grease or abuse to tuning mechs often easily repaired. The best tube set I'd had was a RBO-2 shipboard AM (550-1600, 3-15mhz) rack mount tube unit that weighed about 40-50 pounds and built like a tank. Gave it way working before a move as a very useable ham RX for AM. Other military stuff like the ARC series command sets and BC series were often well built though they did have problems with them in the tropics. By time I was playing with them I'd found them useful but the circuits were to say the least not state of the art for their time and reflected mass production in a hurry. They however were valuable sources of parts for tuners and the like. I'd still buy a command set now for restore or parts. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 5 08:04:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD97@TEGNTSERVER> > >Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first > >generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well > >today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a > >old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs > >that use them) > > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > but that counts, right?) > > For old-music-CD's, who here remembers the "Preemphasis" bit? I've got > a player that indicates that status on the display, though the only CD > I have that uses it is a special test disk. Here's another one for those with long memories. Who remembers subcode graphics? I have one audio CD that contains subcode graphics that I've never been able to view (they're encoded in something like the Euro Teletext format). Anyone know how to read and display subcode graphics? -doug q From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 09:09:26 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved Message-ID: I saved a DEC rainbow from the landfill this morning. I have the system, the monitor but no keyboard. Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly some software for it? thanks! Since I don't have a keyboard, I don't konw if there is anything on the hard drive. -Bob From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 5 09:37:38 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as looking through some hobbyist magazines of that era and earlier, as well as talking to people who were hobbyists back then, could provide the answer... this would be interesting to discuss with the older hobbyists found at hamfests. I guess at one point finding things like enameled wire and cat's whiskers (no, these didn't come from cats) was more difficult than it is now, although at one point, it was easier than it is now, I understand. Has anyone else found that from a hobbyists perepective, modern digital electronics, with all the blasted surface mount chips and ASICS, etc., is less fun than building circuits with tubes and transistors? Of course, even finding tubes and the right transistors was a pain back in the 1970's, and one couldn't get parts one needed from some electronics distributors, who were often the only one that one could get certain components from, without "creating" a company name and title to give to the sales idiots who wouldn't even talk to, or sell, a hobbyist parts. Of course, now, with the Internet, finding parts is much easier than it was back when local electonics stores (e.g., within a couple of miles, there were at least two other places besides Radio Shack to get parts: LaFayette (typically a worse selection than Radio Shack) and an independent place called Everything Electronic that had bins of surplus items in addition to a parts counter and things like car radios. Mail order through companies listed in electroncis catalogs still seemed to be the best way to find things that were difficult to find, and they were less expensive. Just my 2-cents worth. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Jun 5 09:46:12 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Internet Radio In-Reply-To: <000601bfcd6a$1a24a5a0$483263c3@gaz> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:28:22 +0100 Gareth Knight wrote: > Yesterday I found an old LW/MW radio in a second-hand shop that was labelled > an 'Internet Radio' on the box. I found one a few months ago in a car boot sale in Bristol, England. > The radio itself has 'Internet 10' printed > on the front and was produced by a company based in Kent, England. From the > design it seems to be late 1950s/ early 1960s. I have an advert for "Internet Radio (Products) Ltd." pinned to the wall here. They were at 100-102 Beckenham Road, Beckenham, Kent BR3 4RH. The Model J70 radio is shown, MW/LW, battery operated, UKP 4.72, post and packing included. The ad was in Practical Wireless in about 1973. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 10:07:35 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Other military stuff like the ARC series command sets and BC series were > often well built though they did have problems with them in the tropics. The Command Sets (RAT, RAV, ARA/ATA, SCR-274N, and AN/ARC-5 for the model number fanatics) never really had a problem in the Tropics. None of them ever needed MFP ("Moisure and Fungus Proofing - an arsenic laced varnish sprayed over the chassis much like a conformal coating). The sets that did need MFP badly because the jungle started growing in the radios in a matter of days were the Marine Corps sets - TBO, TBW, TBX, TBY, SCR-300 (BC-1000, as commonly known). Incidently, the Command Sets (named as they were designed for plane to plane short range command communications) were THE king hacker raw material for years after the war - way into the 1960s. There were thousands of ways to convert them, and no doubt all of them were tried. Many classic computer hackers learned the ropes ripping into these old radios. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From richard at idcomm.com Mon Jun 5 10:19:08 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <000901bfcf01$663c2d80$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The thing I've noticed over the past few years is that there are more and more really small parts that could be of use once you've relegated your subject board to the rubbish heap. Space is always a problem in small circuits and I've dealt with that to large extent by using the small components that are on many of today's dense boards. Keeping them from getting too hot is fairly important, though I've had pretty good yields. Once I've determined I'll sacrifice a board for its components, I put a cookie sheet with about 3.8" of water in it on the table on my patio. Then, I start by heating the back side of any through-hole components I want to salvage, often using a tool to remove them from the board. Then, I go after the front-side surface-mounted parts, not heating them directly, but heating the space between them, i.e. heating the pads where they're soldered to the board. Once those are thoroughly heated, (usually with light charring and blistering in the case of multilayered boards) I rap the board's component side against the edge of the table, causing the loose components to fall into the water in the cookie sheet. I don't know how well this works for cooling the larger parts, but I've had pretty good luck all around. I find it much more difficult to find out the values of the passives that end up in the cookie sheet, which are pretty handy for sticking a "fix" on the back of an IC, but it surely doesn't hurt them, and it keeps them from bouncing all over the place. After I'm done, there are very few bent pins and all I have to do is pour the water through a sieve to get the teensy little passives, SOT's etc. Then I can spend endless hours picking out these SO parts and trying to figure out what's what. It's not much fun, but it beats watching TV. Dick > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 5 12:41:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly >some software for it? No idea on the software, but all you need for a keyboard is a LK201, and I believe a LK401 should work. Since you've got the monitor sounds like you've already got the hard part to get. The LK201 is the keyboard that was used on VT200's, VT300's, Rainbow's, Dec Professionals, and DECmate's. As well as some VAXstations. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 5 13:19:24 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD97@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000605131819.029183c0@pc> At 09:04 AM 6/5/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >Here's another one for those with long memories. Who remembers >subcode graphics? I have one audio CD that contains subcode >graphics that I've never been able to view (they're encoded in >something like the Euro Teletext format). >Anyone know how to read and display subcode graphics? You mean CD+G? Most karaoke players handle it. I also remember that Commodore's CD-32 handled it, so I would guess there's Amiga-based CD-32 emulation software that'll handle it, too. - John From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 13:23:33 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? thanks! -Bob > >Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly > >some software for it? > >No idea on the software, but all you need for a keyboard is a LK201, and I >believe a LK401 should work. Since you've got the monitor sounds like >you've already got the hard part to get. > >The LK201 is the keyboard that was used on VT200's, VT300's, Rainbow's, Dec >Professionals, and DECmate's. As well as some VAXstations. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 5 13:55:36 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!) In-Reply-To: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) Message-ID: <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> I've been of for the hollydays, so now some comments. I'd still favour a XML defined markup for this. Someone (John ?) said cutting edge .. why ? XML itself is nothing, it's only aset of rules to describe markup languages. In fact, XML is just a simplified (and bastardised) SGML, posibly to promote the idea. Nobody has to know anything about XML (although it helps) to use one of these Languages. Like one can do well formed HTML without knowing about XML, a Data Image Markup Language can be used without XML - But defining it in XML will give a huge advantage in tool usage. There are plenty of libraries and tool collections to handle markup languages with a XML based definition. These tools are to help development and not restrict. There is no need to build a XML parser for an Apple ][ or a TRS (Or a CoCo - Hi Bill:), unless someone likes to. The target systems don't need any knowledge about XML either - they need to dechipher the markup language. Read: they have to know that identifies the start of the description of track zero of said disk. Of course the usage of a parser framework may reduce programming, but there's no _must_ to do so. The same is true for a system writing an image file - it doesn't need to know XML - if the programm produces a well formed output (and that's a basic must for every format) all will work fine. XML changes nothing at first - like any other general standard. The benefit is in the long term when people are able to build advanced tools based on this standards without knowing about every specific single usage - My most favoured example is still the ordinary screw and bolt. Standardizeing this simple thing has allowed toolmakers to produce a wide variety of tools handeling them , from simple manual wrenches over prneumatic or electric to 100% robotic devices ... and these tools work (almost) in every situation ... we don't need a special wrench for Atari screws or Commodore ... Of course I prefer the metric screw system, but when looking closer it could be different, maybe better in some aspects for different situations ... but that's no real issue, the fact of having one system offers more benefit than anything else. BTW: Did I already mention that I _personaly_ think XML is a poor design ? And If I sound like a old XML freak, I'm not, until some 8 Month ago I did ignore XML (and I did even fight it), then I had to define some markup and tried XML ... no big deal (exept the real crapy standard document) - and an instant gain thru independant structure checking and problem reporting, without writing my own tools to check everything. Well, back to our theme: Pete, I realy agree to your idea about a sensible editor, just we are living in a real world, where real software is to be used. And since this is supposed to be an open standard, a sensible editior can't be assumed... Even if we would try, I doubt that such a thing is available on every obscure home computer system. Even chances for a simple text editor can be bad. So including binary as default is a bad idea - I would even go further and restrict all markup specific parts for only using the characters A-Z, 0-9 and some well defined (read only the absolute necersary minimum) characters. Remember, not every Computer system offers lower case or ASCII at all (This is also the reason why my definition did only include uper case tags, while XML encurages lower case). I can't stretch this fact far enough: Don't assume that binary data transfer is possible between two systems - as soon as you do, you will exclude possible usages. A format to be choosen shouls at least allow to transport the neto data in non binary form - a better way would be to allow different encodings, so _neutral_ converters may change the data representation without interpreting the content. Example: to save disk space data chunks (sektors) are stored binary - but since the encoding is just another parameter of the data tag, it may be convertetd to a base64 encoding _without_ interpreting the content other than converting the encoding. This may be done by a third party tool (remember about the advantages of standards for tool variety?) After all, we are talking about puting _yesterdays_ data on _todays_ storage (and not the other way around). Let'S just assume we would need three times - oh, well lets say four times the space to encode so an Apple Disk will need a whooping 600 kb ... Boy, we are talking about 2000s storage, thats the year then 40 gig drives droped below 250 USD including taxes. The equivalent of 10 Gig markup coded data, or about 70,000 Apple disks (143 k each). Somehow I doubt that someone will ever collect that amount. And even Windows is now able to compress data on the fly. This may reduce it close to the original size, maybe even less (in our example we store now something like a quater million of disks on one 250 Dollar IDE drive...) As far as I see this call, it's to define a format for more than just a specific system or format - so reducing it to a hard coded thing with just a few numbers would turn away most possible usage. Even further, restricting it to floppy disk like structures would render it non usable. Of course I may describe a CBM disk written on a 4040 drive - but what about the same data stored on tape drives ? Also, looking on Sallams definition even some floppy structures are excluded - where is variable speed, where are possible tracks of more than 64k, and how to encode spiral tracks (no, I'm not talking about Apple copy protection schemes, but rather flopy drives writing only one big track, like on a CD - In fact, medias like these micro drives (as used by some sharp machines) are in more danger than some Apple disk ... you still get enough drives and disks to replicate them. The same is true for other once common medias, which fall in similar categories. just remember the Sinclair micro drives. Maybe never common in the US, but for shure on the Island and within Europe. Defining only a standard for FD data means closing the eyes about all the fast fading data storage history. One may define one ore maybe two standars, but soon you'll loose - and the forgotten medias will loose. If there'S some effort to invest, it should be spend on a standard to cover as many as possible medias, and it should be extensible to add missing medias on the fly. A format to be choosen should be able of the 10 following things (with no special order): - Be able to handle all kinds of stuff from Card Storages and paper tapes, over real tapes and audio cassettes, spiral floppies and micro drives to FDs, HDs and CDs... and what ever is coming (althoug I belive that the number of new concepts is shrinking). - Define an abstract view (like tracks and sectors) - Allow the addition of physical descriptions when needed - (Possibly) Allow the definition of 'hardwaredependant' structures (ALthough this now crosses into the path of emulator definitions) - Expandable in several ways (including content encoding) - Transportable between machines, codes and OSes - Allow robust encoding - Able to be integrated into other definitions (like being integrated in a storage situation description) - simple encodable / simple decodable - Allow the encoding of multiple media within a single transfer unit (aka file). (Especialy nuber 8 and 10 is important when going to do more than just storing a disk image) I still think a XML based markup language is a good choice. I would suggest a multiple level design: - Level one is a language to describe the logical content of a media. - Level two would define 'physical' descriptions, like disk encoding etc. - Level three defines a storage landscape In the end these 3 levels should be interoperating. For example: One would encode the logical content of a disk using the Level 1 tags. A top level tag (like 'MEDIA' may include a reference to a Level 2 description telling that the disk is MFM encoded but Track 0 side 0 is FM. This will be good for 99,99% of all encoded data disks - but for special situations, like a copy protection scheme, where track 17 is also FM the reevant tags will cary override informations to tell the difference. Level 3 may be used to define a situation where a computer has 4 disk drives and tells which media (disks) are mounted in which drive. Or define a set of medias belonging to one situation (like puting all 23 OS/2 2.0 disks into one image). Anyway, I'm geting tired ... Gruss H. P.S.: still nobody to decode my disk example ? -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 5 14:15:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? > >thanks! > >-Bob Not a helpfull answer, but just about anywhere you find DEC hardware. I'm just dumbfounded the system had a monitor, but not the keyboard. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 5 14:11:43 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion Message-ID: <012d01bfcf21$e30095c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Hi Leo, bad news, I'm afraid. When I went back to my local thrift shop on the weekend, the Hyperion that had been there for a few weeks was gone. I asked the clerk if she knew whether it had sold or been dumpstered, but she had no clue. A quick check of the dumpster didn't turn up anything either : v ( Still, I'll keep my eyes open. They do seem to turn up every now and again around here. They must have been popular with the oilpatch guys, who were on the road a lot. Regards, Mark Gregory From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 14:31:29 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found it at the curb on garbage day....the cpu case..and the monitor was nearby...but no keyboard to be found. -Bob > >Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? > > > >thanks! > > > >-Bob > >Not a helpfull answer, but just about anywhere you find DEC hardware. I'm >just dumbfounded the system had a monitor, but not the keyboard. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From owad at applefritter.com Mon Jun 5 14:48:40 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Fwd: HX-20 Message-ID: <200006051951.MAA03233@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Can anybody help her out? Respond to CTI@ncentral.com, not me. Tom ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 6/5/00 7:08 AM Received: 6/5/00 2:20 PM From: Kimberly Bauer, CTI@ncentral.com To: owad@applefritter.com Tom, Browsed your information and thought maybe you could direct us to a parts center for HX-20. In need of the optional mini cassette recorder. Please reply to: Kim Bauer Contact Technologies, Inc CTI@ncentral.com ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From lbutzel at home.com Mon Jun 5 13:01:30 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: <012d01bfcf21$e30095c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <003501bfcf18$13fee5a0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Mark - Thanks for tracking after the Hyperion. I will keep you posted of any progress I make. Regards Leo ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gregory To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > Hi Leo, > > bad news, I'm afraid. When I went back to my local thrift shop on the > weekend, the Hyperion that had been there for a few weeks was gone. I asked > the clerk if she knew whether it had sold or been dumpstered, but she had > no clue. A quick check of the dumpster didn't turn up anything either : v > ( > > Still, I'll keep my eyes open. They do seem to turn up every now and again > around here. They must have been popular with the oilpatch guys, who were > on the road a lot. > > Regards, > > Mark Gregory > > From emu at ecubics.com Mon Jun 5 15:44:37 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved References: Message-ID: <00b101bfcf2e$e4017810$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: Bob Brown > I saved a DEC rainbow from the landfill this morning. > > I have the system, the monitor but no keyboard. > > Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly > some software for it? plaese have a look at: ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/rainbow/ cheers, emanuel From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 5 17:45:19 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> Message-ID: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> Will 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' please contact me, this is about the paid but never received ebay item. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 5 16:15:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!) In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!)" (Jun 5, 20:55) References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2 0:48) <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> Message-ID: <10006052215.ZM1486@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 5, 20:55, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, back to our theme: > Pete, I realy agree to your idea about a sensible editor, just > we are living in a real world, where real software is to be used. > And since this is supposed to be an open standard, a sensible > editior can't be assumed... Even if we would try, I doubt that > such a thing is available on every obscure home computer system. > Even chances for a simple text editor can be bad. So including > binary as default is a bad idea :-) I only included it because there appeared to some strong opposition to "wasted" bytes. What I did was bolt tags onto the binary, deliberately producing what Tony accurately described as the worst of both worlds. Actually, if you look at the examples, the ASCII form in the tags, at least, typically takes just about the same space as the binary would, so there's absolutely no reason to use anything but ASCII. > - I would even go further and > restrict all markup specific parts for only using the characters > A-Z, 0-9 and some well defined (read only the absolute necersary > minimum) characters. Thereby avoiding 99.9% of the problems raised by incompatible character set representations. Agreed. > Let'S just assume we would need three times - oh, well lets > say four times the space to encode so an Apple Disk will > need a whooping 600 kb That's only a thousand on a CD ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Jun 5 16:18:16 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: New Find! Rolm 1602... Does anyone have any info/pointers/etc...? Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E5D@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Hi! I just picked up a Rolm 1602 system at a local hamfest. It looks like an interesting toy (and a way to expand my horizons beyond the Sun/SGI/Dec arena. It even has a front panel interface :-) The unit seems to be in pretty decent shape (apparently it did not go through "Military" (i.e. sledgehammer) decommissioning, as the party I bought it from indicated that he obtained it from a NASA surplus auction). Unfortunately, there were no docs whatsoever with this critter. I seem to vaguely remember that some of the Rolm systems were just repackaged and beefed-up Data General Novas, but I could be wrong. Can anyone provide me with info/pointers/tech docs on this critter? I've done a web search and a dejanews search, but haven't had any luck. I even checked through some of the classiccmp archives, since I remembered seeing something on a Rolm system here a few months back, but I was unable to locate anything. Some of the things I'd like to know (or find pointers to): Hardware interface pinouts/docs: i.e. where do I connect an ASCII terminal... (There is no obvious serial connector, i.e. DB25, etc. All the connectors are some sort of mil-std twist-lock jobs) Does this critter have a disk interface of some sort, etc. Power requirements and pinouts: The previous owner had an AC line cord attached to a connector on the back, but I don't necessarily trust that he knew what he was doing. Is this really capable of running at 117V@60Hz, or did it need something oddball like 400Hz? Instruction set documentation: So I can play with the front panel :-) Software: i.e. Did this thing have a simple executive program of some sort? I downloaded Bob Supnik's Nova emulator in the hope that it might provide me with some hints as to Nova architecture, but there wasn't much documentation there. Will a Rolm 1602 run DG Nova code? If so, is there an archive of DG Nova software somewhere? The back of this critter uses a bunch of what looks like mil-std twist-lock connectors. Does anyone know an (affordable) source for these? I'm going to try pulling it apart tonight (It appears to be held together by about 17,000 screws :-). Any info would be greatly appreciated.... -Thanks in advance... -al- -acorda@geocities.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:04:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000604171225.05d51600@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Jun 4, 0 05:54:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/1ca15f17/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:35:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 0 01:01:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/d5ecee5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:10:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at Jun 5, 0 00:58:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/0fcff52c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:24:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 10:14:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/bf133d67/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:31:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 4, 0 08:11:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2071 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/d8298c4d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 16:28:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: from "Bob Brown" at Jun 5, 0 09:09:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/fefbd529/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jun 5 16:57:35 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: New Find! Rolm 1602... Does anyone have any info/pointers/etc...? References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E5D@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <393C224F.A8E20815@mainecoon.com> Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > The unit seems to be in pretty decent shape (apparently it did not > go through "Military" (i.e. sledgehammer) decommissioning, > as the party I bought it from indicated that he obtained it from a > NASA surplus auction). Unfortunately, there were no docs > whatsoever with this critter. I seem to vaguely remember that > some of the Rolm systems were just repackaged and beefed-up > Data General Novas, but I could be wrong. Yep, you're wrong :-) With the exception of one model (of which a grand total of three were built) ROLM never did "punches"; the machines were always of their design and frequently had architectural extensions. The 16XX series are post-nova 800 with stack support, but in an utterly different and incompatable fashion from that found in the Nova 3. I don't recall if it had 64K extended mode a la Keronix and DCC, but I wouldn't be surprised. A consequence of this is that not all Nova code will run on the 16XX; just as DG reclaimed some meaningless instruction codings (which could be used as NOPs) to implement the Eclipse instruction set, ROLM claimed some for their extensions. The exposure to problems, however, is probably quite small -- less for an early machine like the 1602 as opposed to the later 1666B. [snip] > Some of the things I'd like to know (or find pointers to): > > Hardware interface pinouts/docs: > i.e. where do I connect an ASCII > terminal... (There is no obvious serial connector, > i.e. DB25, etc. All the connectors are some > sort of mil-std twist-lock jobs) Yep, and not all of them are fixed-function. J1-12 on one machine might well be something utterly different on another. I'm not positive where the basic I/O stuff comes out, but I may be able to find one of my fellow ROLM alumini who does. > Does this critter have a disk interface of > some sort, etc. It might -- or might not. It depends on the application that the machine was used in; a nontrivial number of the 16XXs were employed in diskless applications running a purely memory-resident operating system. A very large number of these were used in the GLCM/SLCM erector and launch control systems. If the machine *does* have a disk interface it's likely to be a diabloesque interface to one of ROLMs semi-proprietary drives. > Power requirements and pinouts: > The previous owner had an AC line cord > attached to a connector on the back, > but I don't necessarily trust that he knew what > he was doing. Is this really capable of running > at 117V@60Hz, or did it need something oddball > like 400Hz? It depends on how it was optioned. Most will accept a fairly wide frequency range on input. Unlike some other manufacturers, ROLM built a single machine for all branches of the service. This in turn caused some other problems; hardware capable of withstanding the Navy's sledgehammer test was usually on the heavy side as far as the air force was concerned and the Navy really didn't care if the machines operated to 60,000ft... > Instruction set documentation: > So I can play with the front panel :-) I'll see what can be dredged up. It's been a *very* long time. > Software: > i.e. Did this thing have a simple executive program of some > sort? Not in the sense of something in ROM. ROLM software for the thing included ARTS ("advanced real time system") and some memory-resident thing whose name escapes me. Much of the latter stuff was written in a C-like language called MSL, which tried to dodge around the problems inherent in byte pointers on the Nova. > I downloaded Bob Supnik's Nova emulator in the hope that > it might provide me with some hints as to Nova architecture, > but there wasn't much documentation there. Will a Rolm 1602 run > DG Nova code? If so, is there an archive of DG Nova > software somewhere? It should run most Nova code; it will be things like MMAP controls that might break. As for a Nova archive -- not that I know of, although it's on my to-do list. > The back of this critter uses a bunch of what looks like mil-std > twist-lock connectors. Does anyone know an (affordable) > source for these? I'm going to try pulling it apart tonight > (It appears to be held together by about 17,000 screws :-). And you'll find about 17,000 more inside. Each board has a sealed metal cover; if you peel that off you'll find the chips mounted so they straddle metal rails. In order to meet fungus and salt-spray (and to a lesser extent, altitude) Mil Specs the cases are gasketed and some were pressurized with dry N2 -- so obviously blow through cooling won't work. The metal frames and the metal lids comprise the so-called "thermal frame" which conducts heat to the sides of the ATR chassis, where in most machines they attached blow-through heat exchangers. Boy, I haven't thought about this stuff since 1984, so I may be off on some of it... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 5 17:17:41 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006052217.PAA08145@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is > one of those gas-powered soldering irons (the ones that run on butane > lighter fuel) with a hot air blower tip. Run it round the IC, and you'll > find that the solder melts and the chip will come off easily enough. > > I have heard of the paint-stripper type of hot air gun being used for > this, with a suitable small-diameter nozzle. But I've never tried that. Hi I've used the shrink tubing guns and they work OK. These are a little more controlled than a blow torch. For a large boards of dual inline IC's, I've use peanut oil. It has a high enough temperature that it can melt solder, with a frying pan. I use some long tweezer. To keep them cool I use a fan ( Don't put them in water. A drop of water in the oil will be explosive. ). When done, I wash the parts in dish soap. Regardless of which you use, make sure to wear eye protection!!! Dwight From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 5 20:33:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark" at Jun 5, 0 00:58:27 am Message-ID: >Be aware that most manufacturers do not recomend reusing desoldered >surface-mount devices. That said, it seems to be possible to remove and Not exactly in their best interest to tell you go ahead and reuse the old parts. >The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is Doesn't anybody have a solder pot? Thats what pretty much all the scrappers I know use to remove parts. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 19:52:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 5, 0 05:33:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/5de530bf/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 20:32:54 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But by 1945 the cavity magnetron was documented to some extent (probably > enough to make one if you understood Maxwell's Equations ;-)) in the ARRL > handbook. FWIW, this book was published _before_ the war ended. That is because the Japanese and Germans had them - no longer a secret. The Japanese actually were quite far advanced in the art of the magnetron. For that matter, SCR-268 radars (first generation U.S. searchlight and gun control radars) were being sold as surplu before the war ended, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 20:45:32 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't dispute that there are modern plastics that are very stable and > have a long life. But I doubt that they're used in consumer-grade CD-ROM > drives or VCRs. They are, simply because the formulations have changed across the board. You can't getthe bad plastics anymore, they just are long since out of production. > Some are. Some aren't. In my experience, the ones used in consumer-grade > stuff are not the latest plastics. They are neither stable nor > long-life. Period. Well, I made my point, and am not going to continue beating a dead horse. > Well, it was a consumer-grade unit. And how much did it cost? Probably a good week's pay... > Plastic gears cracking and falling off. You think this is a non-problem, > I've seen it happen far too often to trust it won't. Other plastic parts > will fail due to stress. Adjustments (turntable height -> focus) will be > lost. No comment anymore. > Chips failing due to : > Thermal stresses cracking bondout wires (this happens in powered-down > equipment) > Contamination getting into the device/dopant migration (not common, but > certainly possible after 50 years) > Bit Rot. The microcontrollers may well use OTP EPROM or E2PROM program > memeory. We worry about bit-rot in our classic computers. It's a > problem in other devices as well Uhhh...integrated circuit technology has progressed as well, and we are not talking about cutting-edge fineline traces on the dies. > Electrolytic capacitors, particularly SMD ones failing. This is a major > problem in modern-ish camcorders, BTW. The problem is not replacing the > capacitors (which are easy to get, well-understood, and thus could be > made in 50 years time). It's that they leak a corrosive electrolyte which > will make a right mess of the multi-layer PCB. Seen it happen. Seen it > happen in modern devices. And capacitor technology... > No, not every device will fail, sure. But I think rather more will fail > than you might think. And they will not be easily repairable. I've made my point a few times over now, and this will be my last word on the matter - and I don't want this to sound like a flame, but man, you have to get a little faith in what mankind can actually accomplish. That "world of tomorrow" and "technology marches on" stuff may actually mean something... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 5 21:15:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000606021530.22259.qmail@brouhaha.com> > William Donzelli wrote: > I've made my point a few times over now, and this will be my last word on > the matter - and I don't want this to sound like a flame, but man, you > have to get a little faith in what mankind can actually accomplish. That > "world of tomorrow" and "technology marches on" stuff may actually mean > something... "Technology marches on" means new products are better than old ones. For some definition of "better". However, the appropriate definition of "better" almost *never* includes the product actually lasting longer. In high tech gear, this is because longevity is simply not an issue. The manufacturer that sold you a 4x CD-ROM drive a few years ago knew that: 1) you had no way to know how long it would last 2) 4x CD-ROM drives would be obsolete soon and noone would care about them 3) he wanted you to buy his forthcoming 12x CD-ROM drive To the manufacturer, it's a net *loss* if the drive lasts a long time. The countering factor is that the manufacture does NOT want the drive to fail while it's in the warranty period, because that will cost them money, and they don't want too many to fail within a few years, because their reputation would be damaged. So their motivation is to build the products with the least expensive parts that can be expected to last for about five years. To the extent that making a product that will be robust for five years, the manufacturer will use quality materials and parts. But if a gear that will last five years costs $0.0012, and a gear that will last twenty years costs $0.0013, guess which one will be used? You might say that the miniscule difference doesn't justify the cheaper part, even when they buy millions of them. But consider that not only are they buying millions of that part, but millions of all the other parts in the drive as well. If they save a tiny amount of money on each part in each unit, the savings add up to a non-trivial number. From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jun 5 21:37:00 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Amiga Dev. stuff avail in SoCal Message-ID: I have been contacted by a person who was an Amiga developer and who wishes a rather large stash of Amiga Stuff to disappear from his garage, thus precluding the onset of domestic disharmony. And, as conscientious collectors, it behooves us to maintain harmonious domesticity, if in our power to do so... Please contact Don Jenkins at wa6ogh@msn.com for more info. I am posting this for Don, so please contact him directly. Cheers John From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Jun 5 21:45:48 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) References: Message-ID: <393C65DC.1A4EBE58@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one > of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. Jerome Fine replies: I am not sure if we are considering the same thing, but the single block (512 bytes) of code for the secondary MSCP boot program on a PDP-11 (the primary MSCP boot program being the code in the BOOT ROM which is much less than 256 bytes - actually one that can be entered by hand using ODT is only 110 bytes) which is on block zero on the hard disk drive of a PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would be required. I don't think it is possible to fit the rest of the code, data and buffers into just the remaining 128 words even when just one controller or host adapter is allowed and still manage to utilize many hard disk drives each with a maximum total of 8 GBytes - obviously not all physical partitions could be booted from one 64 entry mapping table since even just one 8 GByte drive has 256 physical partitions (as mentioned by Tim Shoppa - how do you even keep track of what is on all 256 partitions, let alone use them all? - envy!!!). But at least with a 64 entry mapping table in the boot block, all 64 partitions mapped for data use can also be booted from inside RT-11 using DUP if they have the necessary system files on those partitions. The problem is to squeeze an extra 56 entries into the mapping table so that DUP can boot all 64 possible partitions (D00: => D77:). >From what I can understand of what the MSCP boot requires, it is not possible to do the rest using just the other 128 words for code and data (buffers can occupy the same space as the mapping table). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Jun 5 22:38:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:07:35AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:07:35AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Incidently, the Command Sets (named as they were designed for >plane to plane short range command communications) were THE king hacker >raw material for years after the war - way into the 1960s. There were >thousands of ways to convert them, and no doubt all of them were tried. Geez, now you're making me want to shelve my existing 37 projects and go playing with radios. I was in my garage last week, sorting out boxes from old moves, and found that cute little spline-shaft knob from an ARC-5 of some sort that I used to have, I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. I have a dim recollection of building my own power supply for it out of an aluminum project box, since I didn't have the official power supply, and I had to drill out some banana jacks to fit the weird mica-insulated connector on the ARC-5 since the prongs were a bit thicker. But I don't think I ever got it actually working... John Wilson D Bit From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 5 21:55:26 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Altos 1000 (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help Yuval out? Reply-to: yuval@iapl.net.au ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:05:09 +1000 From: Yuval Avrahami - IAPL To: "'vcf@vintage.org'" Subject: Altos 1000 hello, I am desperately looking for a manual for the Altos 1000. Will you be able to refer me to a source where I can find the manual? thanks and regards, Yuval Avrahami, CCA Consultant INFOTECH Associates Pty Ltd (ANC 081 288 539) 3/7a, Gibbes Street, Chatswood NSW 2067 Sydney, Australia Phone +612 9882 1022, Facsimile +612 9882 1134 Mobile (0408) 691 566 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 5 22:02:15 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) In-Reply-To: <393C65DC.1A4EBE58@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping > table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word > table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 > available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for > boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would > be required. I don't think it is possible to fit HA! The Woz's boot code generates the requisite table on the fly! ;) (but it sounds like we're talking about a different kind of table :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 23:16:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Geez, now you're making me want to shelve my existing 37 projects and go > playing with radios. I was in my garage last week, sorting out boxes from > old moves, and found that cute little spline-shaft knob from an ARC-5 of some > sort that I used to have, #6743? Rare piece... > I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. If you find it, look at the snapslides. IBM made them. > I have a dim > recollection of building my own power supply for it out of an aluminum project > box, since I didn't have the official power supply, and I had to drill out some > banana jacks to fit the weird mica-insulated connector on the ARC-5 since the > prongs were a bit thicker. But I don't think I ever got it actually working... Real men use the original dynamotors. And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found with thier mouths filled with cement. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From richard at idcomm.com Mon Jun 5 23:43:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <002101bfcf71$c30c98e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It does better for the PCB if you use hot air, but it takes longer, and that's longer for the heat to get to the inards of the IC, which, if you're not inclined to save the PCB, is a good thing to avoid. BTW, with ceramic parts, the water thing I mentioned in an earlier transimission may not be as good an idea. I've torched many a plastic part successfully, however. The hot air approach left me trying to aid the process mechanically, resulting in a hellish task getting the j-leads properly aligned for future socketing. Gull-wing parts seem to fare somewhat better, though at .025" pin pitch it gets a mite difficult finding just the right amount of deflections so they don't have to be nursed when resoldering them. The manufacturers are probably not concerned about the 100 or so parts all of us together will cost them in sales in a year as much as they're concerned about the frustrated phone calls to their rep's or FAE's wondering why the parts don't work the way they should. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > > > > >Be aware that most manufacturers do not recomend reusing desoldered > > >surface-mount devices. That said, it seems to be possible to remove and > > > > Not exactly in their best interest to tell you go ahead and reuse the old > > parts. > > True, but I've never seen a similar comment in a databook or service > manual for pin-through-hole parts. But it's in just about every > databook/service manual/etc for SMD ones. > > > > > >The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is > > > > Doesn't anybody have a solder pot? Thats what pretty much all the scrappers > > I know use to remove parts. > > I must admit that I've never been in the position of caring more about > the component than the PCB. Every time I've wanted to remove an SMD part, > it's been essential to preserve the (probably irreplaceable) PCB. > > Many times I've managed to separate them without damaging either part > using the hot air tool, though. > > -tony > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 6 00:32:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:16:50AM -0400 References: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:16:50AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >#6743? Rare piece... Dunno the #, but I think I paid about $2-$3 to Fair Radio for the knob, in the early 80s, they had plenty of command set accessories. I wonder what they have left, they're certainly still in business, although their prices have gone up bigtime. >> I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. > >If you find it, look at the snapslides. IBM made them. Are those the nasty latches that hold the top on? Because ... >And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found with >thier mouths filled with cement. Then I guess I'm going to hell! The top was all screwed up on mine when I got it, the slides were mangled horribly, so I drilled them all out and put in pretty (I thought) brass thumbnuts instead, and drilled some vent holes while I was at it for some reason. In my defense, this was almost 20 years ago and they were hardly rare at the time! I think I paid $10 or less for the rig, which I found in the local want ads. On the plus side, I have a BC-223-AX transmitter which my grandfather supposedly schlepped back from somewhere (I don't buy the story, for his war I'd expect spark coils and coherers!!!), which appears to be brand new (still has the packing cardboard over the row of tubes), the only things that have happened to it are a bent connector, and the tuning card(s) seem to have walked off since I got it (hmm, I think I know which ex-roommate to suspect!!!). Don't know anything about it though, BC means signal corps right? It has the same annoying latches, only bigger and a lot harder to move... John Wilson D Bit From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 02:50:18 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' In-Reply-To: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> Message-ID: <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net> Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. The last I heard from him was on May 6th. We were discussing the purchase of a Vector Graphic system he owns which he posted as available on this list on April 26th. AFAIR, I haven't seen any posts here on the list from him in quite a while. I hope he hasn't joined the list of "silent keyboards". Bill -> Will 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' please contact me, this -> is about the paid but never received ebay item. -> -> Ed -> -- From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 6 09:25:49 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000606.092804.-268915.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:16:50 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli writes: > Real men use the original dynamotors. Here, here. Vibra-paks are for wussies :^). > And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found > with thier mouths filled with cement. It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. I do recall an article from '73 magazine in the early 50's, that told you how to chop up an ARC-5 transmitter to turn it into a VFO. IIRC, you chop the chassis off at the oscillator coils. . . . :^) Jeff Kaneko KH6JJN ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 6 10:48:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Dunno the #, but I think I paid about $2-$3 to Fair Radio for the knob, in > the early 80s, they had plenty of command set accessories. I wonder what > they have left, they're certainly still in business, although their prices > have gone up bigtime. Fair still has lots of things.Basically, 99 percent of what they have is not in the catalog, simply because of the small quantities - either because they never had many of part X to begin with, or they have reduced the inventory so much that it is not worth putting in the catalog. I frequent Fair (back in a few weeks!), and I am always finding weird individual things, and boxes of stuff that were mainstays of catalogs past. They do get computer stuff from tim to time, but it gets scrapped out fast, I think. Last time I was there, they had quite a few plotters (IBM and HP) and some HP 1000 (or 2000) minicomputers with odd labels, as they were part of some sort of HP oddball gizmo tester. Fair also has quite a few boards full of old transistors, for those of us that have minis from the 1960s. Now that I have a list of part numbers needed for the RCS/RI Packard Bell, I look for spares. > Are those the nasty latches that hold the top on? Because ... Yes. Nasty they are. > Then I guess I'm going to hell! No, just a nighttime visit from Vito and Tony. > On the plus side, I have a BC-223-AX transmitter which my grandfather > supposedly schlepped back from somewhere Probably Buffalo Radio Supply... > Don't know anything about it though, BC means signal corps right? Yes ("Basic Component"). BC-223-AX was part os SCR-245. A big 10 Watts of AM. It is a ground radio set, not aircraft. If you ever want to get rid of it, contact me. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 6 11:35:04 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > But by 1945 the cavity magnetron was documented to some extent (probably > > enough to make one if you understood Maxwell's Equations ;-)) in the ARRL > > handbook. FWIW, this book was published _before_ the war ended. > > That is because the Japanese and Germans had them - no longer a > secret. The Japanese actually were quite far advanced in the art of the > magnetron. Hi Actually the thing that made allied radar better than German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, only that it did make a large difference in how effective the radar was. Dwight From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 12:14:35 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Although some PDP11/10s seem to use the older system I'll describe below. My PDP-11/03 systems were apparently sold as some sort of laboratory equipment package by a company called Applied Color Systems (ACS); they were full of some sort of metallic-looking dust (I think they came from a cosmetics company before being donated to the the university where I got them, which didn't want the equipment), and came with a non-DEC power controller: an Applied Color Systems C1035 power controller which is of a rather simple design, although it contains parts from well-known manufacturers: AMF/Potter & Brumfield relay, Gould circuit breaker, Tignal Transformer Co. 12VAC transformer and sockets made to federal spec. WC-596, whatever that is; heavy solid steel case as well. I wonder if they're "badge engineered." There are six switched outlets, two unswitched outlets, a 20A circuit breaker, two 120VAC plastic three-pin (two of which are used) connectors for fans and one plastic three-pin connector (two of which are used) that when shorted completes the circuit for the relay coil and switches the 6 outlets on. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 6 12:57:30 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' In-Reply-To: <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net>; from whdawson@mlynk.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:50:18AM -0400 References: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <20000606125730.W25040@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:50:18AM -0400, Bill Dawson wrote: > Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and > his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. The last I heard > from him was on May 6th. We were discussing the purchase of a Vector > Graphic system he owns which he posted as available on this list on April > 26th. AFAIR, I haven't seen any posts here on the list from him in quite a > while. I hope he hasn't joined the list of "silent keyboards". > Bill Last I heard from him was May 2nd, he said that he and his wife were moving into a new home and he would contact me soon.. no replies to my mails to him since then.... I'm waiting on a PDP-11/35 from him for PDP11.ORG. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From technoid at cheta.net Tue Jun 6 12:57:16 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP Message-ID: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. Much of it was used by the Air Force for Missile testing etcetera. Here is a partial list: 1ea Harris 600 - fully outfitted mini. Model H600-2 Serial # 252 1ea Dec H7204 expansion chassis with several cards 16ea DEC Vax 4000 minis with 40mb ram, hard drives were pulled by Boeing and scrapped but CPB has lots of scsi hard disks. CPU is KA46. Model is V546K-AD Monitors for the DEC 4000 machines are VR-19HA (Sony GDM1961) 1ea DEC RL02 disk unit in rack 1ea DEC TA78-BF R-B1 Rack-mount tape unit in rack 3ea RA-81 disk units in 19" rack 3ea HP7920 hdd 1ea HP1000 mini with 7970 tape unit in rack 1ea hdd7906 (HP disk) in rack You can contact Ed Kirby of CPB at EDCPB@email.com Hope you found something you wanted! From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 6 13:22:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > Hi > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, I suspect and others may comment that like many technologies it was not a single point event like having the magnetron but also the perpiheral technologies like selsyn motors, and video(wideband) amplifier design skills to complete the package. Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge to do the needed signal processing and presentation took longer to develop. It's the subtleties of the reflected signal that has information of greater interest beyond simple range. Extracting that and presenting it in human useable form is far from trivial. Allison From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 6 12:26:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, > only that it did make a large difference in how effective > the radar was. There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is the one thing that won the war. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 13:28:28 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, that is the issue. We're considering what will be available in 50 > years time (or whatever). And most consumer-grade stuff simply won't be. > Yes, we could make stuff today that will last 50 years or more, but we > don't :-(. Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers above them who've convinced sheep-minded (no offense to sheep intended) consumers that they need a constant supply of things that are new and that the changes in products and capabilities have to be so fast-paced. Didn't cars reach optimum levels of comfort and luxury in the 1970's (ok, emissions were high, but think of all the pollution that results from manufacturing new cars); it's one thing to replace a car when it's failed structurally and repairing a badly rusted frame isn't an option... however, if heavier frames, etc. were used in the first place, that wouldn't be a problem. Now some builders are designing houses to be throw-away units, designed to last abotu 30 to 50 years... and with all that "smart-house" rubbish (who wants all that nonsense in a house?), I give some of them 10 years before people consider them obsolete or before everything stops working. Is super-high resolution for televisions that much of a necesity? I find a 20 year old Zenith System III still more than adequate... same for a 1973 color RCA, which presently needs a repair - the colors in the picture of the old RCA looked much better than those of the new TVs I see in stores! Is there any significant advantage of a new refridgerator to a 30 year old one? Etc... If the world would keep the population under control and people would stop multiplying like rabbits, and big-business would stop trying to convert so many 3rd world countries to nations which use more energy and more consumer products, if so many people didn't drive so far to work every day, and if so much energy wasn't wasted in the transportation and manufacture of new products, energy efficiency would not be of much importance, land "development" thats destroying the countryside and beautiful woodlands would stop, we wouldn't need to keep building new highways, etc. Of course, large highways also have military and police purposes as well, but that's not well publicized by our esteemed and intelligent (sarcasm intended) politicians. Is not the the cycle of constant growth, deemed necessary by greedy businesses and governments seeking more revenue, nothing more than insanity? Business expansion often requires more people who need more houses and cars, more highways, more land, who have more babies who will need more schools, then more jobs, then the cycle of lunacy continues until we're all living like cockroaches in overcrowded cities depending upon more man-made chemicals for food since there won't be enough farmland. ...and to think that many humans consider themselves intelligent than other creatures; strange. The solution seems so simple: make things that will last a long time and are repairable and teach consumers not to be influenced by marketing and that it's usually more sensible to get things repaired than to buy new things when they don't have a good reason to need something new (e.g. - they actually need something with different features (not just want to play with new featues as toys for their own entertainment) or what they have is irrepairable, etc.). Giving the above further thought, perhaps part of what's led to this problem of a "throw away" society has been the proliferation of con-artists in the repair field, from car mechanics (including the repair departments of car dealers) to TV repairmen to home repair contractors; far too many of them lie about things, overcharge consumers for unnecessary repairs, perform poor-quality work, etc... and they typically use their BBB (Better Business Bureau) memberships to lure gullible consumers into their traps. When one counters them on what they're doing wrong, they can have a tendency to turn rather nasty and damage one's property. Hence, the average consumers may prefer to just buy something new rather then be cheated multiple times by repair goons and be inconvenienced by a sometimes unreasonably long wait for the repair. Of course, if more people knew how to repair thigns themselves, or at least understood the concept of how things worked before having someone else repair them, the problem could be eliminated. Ok, simple solution, right? Not really, as most people who are intelligent don't want to get involved in politics, so we get a much higher percentage of imbecillic, and sometimes murderous, greedy bastards, higher than the level found in society as a whole, in elected offices, from local government officials to heads of state (e.g. - look at what's inhabiting the nuthouse^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HWhitehouse in Washington DC). > manuals. Because that's about the only thing that will last for 50 years. I'll bet that in 50 years, there will be significantly many more 70 to 100 year old pieces of electronic equipment in working, or repairable, condition than pieces of 50 year old equipment, and that the majority of 50 year old equipment still existing at that time will be, for the most part, useless, irrepairable, scrap. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 6 13:42:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: >I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. >Much of it was used by the Air Force for Missile testing etcetera. Here >is a partial list: > > >1ea Harris 600 - fully outfitted mini. Model H600-2 Serial # 252 Man am I glad I'm on the west coast, and a long way away from this puppy! How many Racks? Two? I'm not sure this is the same model I got my start on, but it's the first time I've seen an old Harris Mini mentioned. Anyone know what model Harris the "SNAP-2" systems were? BTW, the best version of Zork I've ever played was on a Harris. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 6 13:05:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 0 09:45:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/9983d881/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jun 6 13:50:52 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> This morning I've been somewhat lucky... Walking into a Wertstoffhof (basicly a sub of the city waste department where people deposit big stuff for recycleing - Ethan may describe it), I peeked into the computer container to have a look at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and 20 Marks later it visited my car .... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 6 14:12:28 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADA7@TEGNTSERVER> > Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers I hate to be such a bleedin' mindless dittohead, but Mr. Davis, I agree with each and every point you made in this lengthy missive. Right on! -dq From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 14:51:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > This morning I've been somewhat lucky... Indeed! :-) > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... Is this a Commodore PET? Back around 1981 when I was beginning college, the computer lab (in the same building with the card punch machines and non-full-screen terminals for an IBM 4381) was a room full of Commodore PET computers and one TRS-80. Oddly, the only thing I noticed students doing with the PETs was: playing card games. They appeared to be interesting machines. Good luck with your new find! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jun 6 15:00:57 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: References: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: <393D7499.6388.12E900E@localhost> > > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... > Is this a Commodore PET? Back around 1981 when I was beginning > college, the computer lab (in the same building with the card punch > machines and non-full-screen terminals for an IBM 4381) was a room > full of Commodore PET computers and one TRS-80. Oddly, the only thing > I noticed students doing with the PETs was: playing card games. They > appeared to be interesting machines. Over here the stuff was named CBM 4032 (it's a big screen model, so it's for shure a late one ~1984), but as I had to learn, our friends across the pond name almost any Commo PET... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 15:08:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Compu-Das (Random Factors) S-100 A/D converter board Message-ID: While checking out the contents of some 8" floppies on my PDP-11/73, I spotted a couple of circuit boards sitting on top of my LA-120 (that reminds me, I've got to get another box of greenbar... hopefully Office Depot still stocks it; can you believe that I've had quite a few co-workers who had no idea what greenbar paper is?). One of these boards is an S-100 bus board, a Compu-Das model 696-33 made by Random Factors, Inc. of Durango, Colorado. The board is partially populated by chips (it came out of a repackaged Dynabyte 5200 system made by a company Computermotor Corp.), two of which are a Burr Brown ADC76KG A/D converter, and another Burr Brown chip: an SHC80KP (not sure what this one is), in addition to various TTL logic. What's interesting about this circuit board is that the chips are all socketed in little copper sockets made into the blue circuit board, and, apparently, to add D/A functionality to this board as well, one just plugs in some (or all?) of the missing chips. Does anyone know anything about this board? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 15:14:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4014 HV PSU Message-ID: A while back, when I turned on the power to my Tektronix 4014 terminal, nothing appeared on the screen, but I smelled an acrid odor. Upon closer examination, the smell came from the terminal's HV PSU board around the HV transformer for the CRT circuitry. Is this a common problem with these terminals? I'm hoping that the CRT hasn't shorted out, but I haven't had a chance to check that yet. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 6 16:02:02 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 6, 2000 01:14:35 pm" Message-ID: <200006062102.RAA07722@bg-tc-ppp555.monmouth.com> > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] Although some PDP11/10s seem to use the older system I'll describe below. > > My PDP-11/03 systems were apparently sold as some sort of laboratory > equipment package by a company called Applied Color Systems (ACS); > they were full of some sort of metallic-looking dust (I think they > came from a cosmetics company before being donated to the the > university where I got them, which didn't want the equipment), and > came with a non-DEC power controller: an Applied Color Systems C1035 > power controller which is of a rather simple design, although it > contains parts from well-known manufacturers: AMF/Potter & Brumfield > relay, Gould circuit breaker, Tignal Transformer Co. 12VAC transformer > and sockets made to federal spec. WC-596, whatever that is; heavy > solid steel case as well. I wonder if they're "badge engineered." > ACS was a company that (IIRC) used to make PDP11/03 and 11/23 based systems for paint color matching (I think). They were based near Princeton, NJ and their excess stuff often made it to the Trenton computer festival. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 6 15:49:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 6, 0 01:14:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/6ec1ad46/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 6 17:23:17 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> (message from technoid on Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:57:16 -0400) References: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000606222317.2213.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. Where is that? From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 18:10:56 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001bfd00c$7819b980$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> Tony said: -> For the time, I don't dispute that you can make mechanisms that -> will work correctly for many years out of modern plastics. I do doubt -> that's what happens in consumer devices. Because all the evidence I see -> (the units that pass over my workbench) says exactly the opposite. What can be done and what is being done are two different things. This is the crux of the matter. The plastics used in consumer devices are junk, and many times the implementation is done with little thought to durability, only cost. I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic manufacturing plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are excellent. However, there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic pellets and blend in additives to reduce cost. FWIW, the plastic used in automotive interior panels here in the US are almost 50% talc (ground soapstone). Why? Because talc is cheaper than plastic. Ever notice the white or lightly tinted stuff that comes off the interior plastics after a vehicle is a few years old? That is the talc. Notice how brittle the plastic becomes? Again, the talc. Bill From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 18:12:12 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADA7@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <002101bfd00c$a57115e0$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 3:12 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history -> -> -> > Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers -> -> I hate to be such a bleedin' mindless dittohead, but Mr. Davis, I -> agree with each and every point you made in this lengthy missive. -> -> Right on! Ditto ! Bill From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 6 19:16:18 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> >This is the crux of the matter. The plastics used in consumer devices are >junk, and many times the implementation is done with little thought to >durability, only cost. Sometimes plastics are used in very interesting ways. I remember one Sony Walkman-style tape transport from the 1980's, where there were *zero* metal screws in it. The entire assembly was snap-together plastic. Cheap? Absolutely! But design-wise, very interesting. Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 6 17:34:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <005601bfd01d$52e9db70$7464c0d0@ajp166> From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago >about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is >the one thing that won the war. At a different time the said same history channel said it was the VT fuse... I suspect a broader view would say many things did have significance to the outcome and duration of the war. No one development was alone in winning the war. Allison From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 6 20:11:31 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history References: <000d01bfcfe6$71ea4730$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00bd01bfd01d$5140e660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ..it was not a single point event like having the magnetron > but also the perpiheral technologies like selsyn motors, > and video(wideband) amplifier design skills to complete the > package.... > > Allison BTW I have some GE SelSyn motors in the garage that a good friend gave me. A few would be FSOT or even just go for postage to interested parties on the list. eMail if interested. John A. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 6 21:13:46 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: ne Message-ID: <20000607021346.59801.qmail@hotmail.com> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 6 21:14:46 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> I have online documentation for most things DEC *software* I have now, and most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have nearly zero documentation for the hardware... So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few results. I did find a really interesting page here: http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem to help me. Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my MicroVAX is: I finally got several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually *run*! ;-) However, I've tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* (oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there any DOS/Linux utils to read/write to a MV formatted floppy?) Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer upgrade which also includes PostScript. I'll stick my 'scope on the darned thing if I have to (which I will if I can't get any info on this thing by the weekend) but just a reference page with pinouts would be great! I'll even make a deal: I'll *make* a webpage with info on this thing (including pinouts) if someone has the tech references... Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my MicroVAX programming in BASIC soon... See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 6 21:21:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000607022109.83118.qmail@hotmail.com> I am putting out a call once again to anybody who has any DOS software (and I mean anything at all: Word processors, games, scientific programs, etc.) that will work on a Sharp PC-7000 lunchbox portable. I think it has 384K, or so, of memory, but programs that run in 256K should be enough for the job. I also runs DOS Ver. 3.2 I *do not* want to have to sell or scrap this somewhat rare (well, for a PC, anyway) machine because I have no software for it aside from the boot disk. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 6 20:26:00 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' References: <000701bfcfbd$0a226ca0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00cb01bfd01f$5743fbe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and > his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. > > Bill I bought from (them) 13&23-March and recieved both items on 4-May. There were some problems with a core memory board that was shipped in a (padded) envelope and arrived crushed. They replaced the whole item. General positive feeling though they ahould be encouraged to wrap things better. Note that the 5 1/2 week span is a long one. Communications were from one "Heather" B. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 6 21:47:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 06, 2000 10:14:46 PM Message-ID: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> > I have online documentation for most things DEC *software* I have now, and > most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have > nearly zero documentation for the hardware... > > So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find > documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few > results. I did find a really interesting page here: > > http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html > > but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem > to help me. To put it mildly the Compaqazation of the DEC Websites is more than a little irritating. They went from being fairly nice and easy to use, to a nightmare. Here is a trick. Go to the OpenVMS web page and figure out how to search the site, tell it you want to search all sites. Not sure that's the exact trick I use (it seems to change every time), but I have fairly good luck along those lines. > Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my MicroVAX is: I finally got > several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I Smile, and point your browser at the following: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html It has manuals for the latest version of BASIC, which will unfortunatly be newer than what you have. > even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually *run*! ;-) However, I've > tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run > the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" I just gave up in disgust and put the following in my login.com $ set term /dev=vt100/insert I'm sure someone has a better solution, but at any given time I might be accessing my cluster from a VT420, DECterm, NiftyTelnet on a Mac, or an xterm and Unix Telnet. You might want to skip the /insert, I like that behavior. > type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 > installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation > will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until > I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really > quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not sure the above trick will work for you. > (oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there any DOS/Linux utils to > read/write to a MV formatted floppy?) Maybe. ISTR, something about reading ODS-2 disks on Linux. Though I've no idea what format VMS uses for floppies, I've never bothered to mess with them. > Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece Which model is it? Is it a straight Model 300, or is it a 300L, 300X, or 300LX? If it's the 300LX, I might be able to help answer quesitons *IF* I can figure out where my manual is. > of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* > about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more > than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. > Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type > of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know > I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser > which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer > upgrade which also includes PostScript. How about a Ethernet-to-Localtalk converter with DCPSplus and Appletalk running on the OpenVMS box? That is how I print to my HP 5MP printer. In fact the OpenVMS system is acting as the print server for the OpenVMS Cluster, Unix Boxes, and Windows. The Mac's just print direct to the printer. ISTR that you've got a complete set of VAX CD's so this could be an option for you. > Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my MicroVAX programming in > BASIC soon... BTW, I've got some of the ancient DECUS BASIC programs on my FTP site that I've updated to work with OpenVMS. Right now I'm working at learning how to write DCL programs though. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 6 21:52:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:48:26AM -0400 References: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:48:26AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: [... Fair Radio Sales ...] >They do get computer stuff from tim to time, but it gets scrapped out >fast, I think. I'm still kicking myself for not buying some 4040 (or was it 4004) CPU chips, they had them for a couple of bucks, long ago... >BC-223-AX was part os SCR-245. A big 10 Watts of AM. It is a ground radio >set, not aircraft. Any idea if there are tuning units available to bring it into a ham band? The one that's in there (TU-17 I think???) is for 2-3 MHz, so it missed both of the obvious choices. Not like we have enough trees for a decent 80 m wire antenna, but some day we'll move... Speaking of crazy surplus places, does anyone know if John J. Meshna is still in business? They were in Lynn, MA. They used to be the same kind of deal, they had a catalog full of weird stuff, but then lots of *really* random crap in ones and twos that you could find by poking around in the clutter at their shop. John Wilson D Bit From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 6 22:17:16 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: Hi David! I had offered you some software but didn't have your address and the dog ate my e-mail . . . Please send me your address. Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd send me $3.20 for postage. Most of the programs I can send you have no documentation, not even a readme, so you're going to have to poke and hope . . . Stay in touch, Glen Goodwin ACME Enterprises 5511 W. Colonial Drive Orlando, FL 32808 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 6 22:22:21 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Oops Message-ID: <60.3d1c82c.266f19ed@aol.com> Sorry, meant to send that privately. Glen 0/0 From retro at retrobits.com Tue Jun 6 22:29:52 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find References: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can bet I'll be going home with it :-) - Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... > > Gruss > H. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 6 22:02:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? > Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can > bet I'll be going home with it :-) Schools (grade through high) had a lot of these at one point or another. Try poking around the schools in your extended area and see if any leads turn up. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Jun 7 01:17:50 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mark, I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly short time after opening (couple days IIRC). That being said, you can pick up a small propane torch at most hardware stores. Any typical propane or MAPP type torch will do. Or you can use a dremel (or equivalent) to carve enough of the board away to unsolder one pad at a time (very slow, but the only way to remove plastic shrouded connectors without destroying them). Finally, I have access to a hot air desoldering station at work, and can desolder them for you. Contact me OL for this option. clint vaxman@uswest.net On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining > classic stuff, so... > > > Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board > undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into > another device. > > I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the > board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off > when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? > > It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. > Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on > the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too > long. > > In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. > > > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. > > Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? > > > > I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount > components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the > pads). > > > -- Mark > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 7 03:24:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: References: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <393E22C6.3770.3D6F043@localhost> Date sent: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:02:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New find Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > > Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? > > Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can > > bet I'll be going home with it :-) It's only a 12" (Big) Version (See http://www.i-m.de/home/compmuseum/commodore/4032.jpg ) > Schools (grade through high) had a lot of these at one point or another. > Try poking around the schools in your extended area and see if any leads > turn up. Gone since years over here Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Jun 7 08:36:09 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) References: Message-ID: <393E4FC9.4C09390F@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > >On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > > PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping > > table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word > > table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 > > available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for > > boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would > > be required. I don't think it is possible to fit > HA! The Woz's boot code generates the requisite table on the fly! ;) > (but it sounds like we're talking about a different kind of table :) Jerome Fine replies: In RT-11, the MSCP mapping table is used to specify which physical partition is to be used for each logical DUn: unit. The RT-11 command is: "SET DUn: PORT=p,UNIT=u,PART=m" where the PORT stands for which controller the drive is connected to, the UNIT is the physical unit number of the drive and the partition is the physical number of the 32 MByte portion of the drive. Since there is an almost infinite number of different possibilities if you consider all possible combinations for each entry (actually only 4 * 256 * 256 = 262144), it is somewhat difficult to have the mapping table be done on the fly. And even if only one controller is allowed, there are still 65536 possibilities for each entry. With an 8 entry mapping table, that is a lot of combinations. When 64 entries are used, the boot block gets sort of crowded. Whenever the SET command is used to change an entry in the primary table, the boot block entry must also be changed. Now, while a hardware boot from EPROM does not allow a non-zero partition (or at least the version DEC wrote never does), once RT-11 has been booted on any device, it becomes possible to use the RT-11 software to help the boot process along, while under a hardware boot, the allowable combinations are: "SET DUn: PORT=0,UNIT=n,PART=0" since the PDP-11 boot code does not know anything about partitions and the logical unit number must match the physical unit number for everything to work correctly. However, at present, the standard DEC distribution for MSCP software holds only an 8 entry mapping table in the boot block even though the primary mapping table can hold up to 64 entries. But, I suspect that it is entirely possible to extend the mapping table in the boot block to hold 64 entries and thereby allow RT-11 to perform a software boot of all 64 possible partitions specified in the primary mapping table. As pointed out in both of our notes, the challenge is to squeeze the needed code and data into a very limited number of bytes. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 10:54:06 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > However, I've >tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run >the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" >type of error. Well, there's always TECO... $ teco:==$sys$system:teco32.exe teco $ make:==$sys$system:teco32.exe make $ mung:==$sys$system:teco32.exe mung Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor anymore! See ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/ for documentation. Which reminds me. Several years ago I found a slick version of TECO called "Video TECO" which I used for some time under Ultrix. I've since lost the tarball and have not been able to find it on the net (I still have a printout of the manual somewhere). Anyone else use it and know where I can snag a copy? I don't know what line editor they're shipping with VMS these days (my spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray), but the best thing to do with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. >Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece >of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* >about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more >than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. I don't know much about them beyond them being the low-end TURBOchannel Alpha box. I mainly dealt with Flaming-Os and SandWipers, and never played with the 300. IIRC, the 300 has a 12.5MHz TURBOchannel. >Is the printer port serial or parallel, It'll be serial. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 10:53:03 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home Message-ID: This person has a DEC VAXstation II GPX that needs a new home. Please contact the original sender directly. They are located in Bellingham, WA. Phone: 360 733 8111 Reply-to: mbennett@aerotechsports.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:41:04 -0700 From: Mike Bennett To: vcf@vintage.org We have a DEC Vaxstation II GPX with a 19 inch VR290 DA monitor. It have Keyboard and mouse. We have since abondoned the unit for smaller faster systems. We are looking to sell or donate the the equipment to any intersested party. We would appreciate ant assistance you might be able to provide. Best regards, Mike Bennett Preident Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Jun 7 12:06:16 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000601bfd0a2$b205ff00$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Roger said: > However, I've tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I > haven't a clue how to run the line editor, and the screen > editor abends with a "terminal unknown" I assume you know the help set term tree of information. Also, I expect you tried vt100 first? VT100 worked with every SIO PeCee emulator I've heard of and most Unix telnets. John A. (away from Home) From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jun 7 12:32:01 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700 References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 > > installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation > > will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until > > I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really > > quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* > > Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not > using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not > sure the above trick will work for you. It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the hobbyist setup. 1) Install a hobbyist license for DWMOTIF 2) Increase GBLPAGES and GBLSECTIONS system parameters appropriately, if needed, and do $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN GETDATR REBOOT 3) Install MOTIF from the hobbyist CD with this command: $ PRODUCT INSTALL DWMOTIF /SOURCE=DKB400:[KITS.DWMOTIF_VAX125_KIT] 4) Reboot and you'll be brought to the DECwindows login screen. You can run a DECterm and get apropriate terminal behavior. (This is all assuming that you installed DECwindows support when you installed the VMS operating system, of course :) The other good thing to do at this point is to repeat the above procedure for DEC TCP/IP. Once you've installed a UCX license and installed the TCP/IP software, you can set it all up using the command $ @TCPIP$CONFIG.COM (I think... I'm not actually near my VAX right now) and be able to telnet into your VAX from another system. There's documentation a-plenty at: http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet. -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:36:29 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! References: <200006012307.QAA26576@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000607173134.2639.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm guessing it's a video I/O board for a Quadra 630ish machine. These were squat and narrow boxes, like 2 LC's stacked on top of one and other. You could drop in a MPEG decoder card, a ethernet or modem card, a TV Tuner card, or a Video capture card. These were super propriatary and the board won't work in any other machine. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! > > > > Hello all, > > > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > > 820-0510-A c1993 > > Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI > board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots. > > > > > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > > > 341S0021 > > c 1983-93 Apple > > ^ > > | > > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > > beginning to think it's not. > > I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones on > there. > > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other > boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a > 68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93 > http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris > or a Quadra. > > Zane > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:39:51 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home References: Message-ID: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:53 AM Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > This person has a DEC VAXstation II GPX that needs a new home. Please > contact the original sender directly. > > They are located in Bellingham, WA. Phone: 360 733 8111 > > Reply-to: mbennett@aerotechsports.com > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:41:04 -0700 > From: Mike Bennett > To: vcf@vintage.org > > We have a DEC Vaxstation II GPX with a 19 inch VR290 DA monitor. It > have Keyboard and mouse. We have since abondoned the unit for smaller > faster systems. We are looking to sell or donate the the equipment to any > intersested party. We would appreciate ant assistance you might be able to > provide. > > > Best regards, > > Mike Bennett > Preident > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 7 12:33:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 6, 0 08:16:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/341884a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 7 12:44:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Jun 7, 0 00:17:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1198 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/a8d78f6e/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 7 12:59:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist > distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the > procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the > hobbyist setup. The hobbiest is the same save for included app on the CDrom. Your fixes work but the need to do that was likely due to wrong installation options having been selected. I did it based on the 5.4 kits I knew from DEC and the DECwindows server and all installed as expected. FYI the most common problem is not having the licenses (all) at first install and having to go back and run LMF or VMSinstal to add. Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 7 13:01:55 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) References: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <393E8E13.DCF6C966@mainecoon.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) > The coolest thing I've > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > DUMPSTER. *sighs* -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 12:22:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? Fie! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 13:59:36 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB4@TEGNTSERVER> > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? > > Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is > in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) Speaking of which, I see no one bid on this one: : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay auction site. : : The URL to the item on E-Bay is: : : http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=333251248 : : The page includes photos of the unit, and if you are an E-bay : registered user, you can contact the seller to ask questions. FWIW, it's still in E-Bay's database, and the photos still download. -doug q From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 7 14:26:09 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needsa home) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB4@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <393EA1D1.5DFDB84D@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? > > > > Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is > > in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) > > Speaking of which, I see no one bid on this one: > > : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 > : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay auction site. Thing of beauty, isn't it? The only reason I didn't bid on it is because I have enough problems moving big stuff up and down the west coast; the thought of moving stuff east and west is just a little too much for me to cope with just now :-( -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 14:40:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <20000607194009.89778.qmail@hotmail.com> There's no bids on it because its not worth $300... they make no mention of having any software or docs, which would make it damn hard to use.. Not to mention that they don't say what the hell kind of computer it has an interface for on it... could be set up for a lot for a lot of different things.. and it's also a huge beast of a thing to ship. That things been on ebay like 3 or 4 times now Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 7 15:55:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: HUMOR: New Microsoft Messages Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000607155557.26b79d6a@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >New Microsoft error messages: > > In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft > error messages with their own Japanese haiku poetry, each only 17 > syllables, 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, five in > the third. > ------------------------ > Your file was so big. > It might be very useful. > But now it is gone. > ------------------------ > The Web site you seek > Can not be located but > Countless more exist. > ------------------------ > Chaos reigns within. > Reflect, repent, and reboot. > Order shall return. > ------------------------ > ABORTED effort: > Close all that you have worked on. > You ask far too much. > ------------------------ > Windows NT crashed. > I am the Blue Screen of Death. > No one hears your screams. > ------------------------ > Yesterday it worked. > Today it is not working. > Windows is like that. > ------------------------ > First snow, then silence. > This thousand dollar screen dies > So beautifully. > ------------------------ > With searching comes loss > And the presence of absence: > "My Novel" not found. > ------------------------ > The Tao that is seen > Is not the true Tao--until > You bring fresh toner. > ------------------------ > Stay the patient course. > Of little worth is your ire. > The network is down. > ------------------------ > A crash reduces > Your expensive computer > To a simple stone. > ------------------------ > Three things are certain: > Death, taxes, and lost data. > Guess which has occurred. > ------------------------ > You step in the stream, > But the water has moved on. > This page is not here. > ------------------------ > Out of memory. > We wish to hold the whole sky, > But we never will. > ------------------------ > Having been erased, > The document you're seeking > Must now be retyped. > ------------------------ > Serious error. > All shortcuts have disappeared. > Screen. Mind. Both are blank. > .... . ... .. . . > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\NewMicro.htm" > From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 14:14:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: VCF Link Contest Message-ID: I'm running a contest on the VCF website right now. If you add a link to your website pointing to the VCF and you garner the most referals between now and VCF 4.0, you'll win $50! Check out http://www.vintage.org/contests/link.html for complete details. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 15:21:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB8@TEGNTSERVER> > > : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 > > : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay > auction site. > > Thing of beauty, isn't it? The only reason I didn't bid on it is > because I have enough problems moving big stuff up and down the > west coast; the thought of moving stuff east and west is just > a little too much for me to cope with just now :-( It really is nice looking. And I understand; that Prime 2455 cost me a kilobuck to transport from Phoenix to the Louisville (KY) area, and that kilobuck really needed to go into fixing the Quattro. BTW, I answered my own question about the Xyplex- I kinda figured it was some kind of terminal server. How's that coming? -doug q From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Jun 7 15:44:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: ; from rivie@teraglobal.com on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600 References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: >Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor >anymore! Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs. >I don't know what line editor they're shipping with VMS these days (my >spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray), EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type CHANGE that is. I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: 1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you this IIRC). 2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. 3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) 4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! Are there more? >but the best thing to do >with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC >line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from >the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. Boy it's been a while, I remember thinking SOS was very much like the TRS-80 Model II EDTASM. Close enough! I feel sure I've asked this before and probably been answered but, if SOS is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-) John Wilson D Bit From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 15:44:02 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: HUMOR: New Microsoft Messages Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB9@TEGNTSERVER> > >New Microsoft error messages: > > In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft > > error messages with their own Japanese haiku poetry, each only 17 > > syllables, 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, five in > > the third. > > ------------------------ > > Your file was so big. > > It might be very useful. > > But now it is gone. Well, unlike the other stuff Intel and Microsoft stole from the Multics operating system, at least they got this one right. -dq From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 16:26:57 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: John Wilson wrote: >On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: > >Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor > >anymore! > >Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets >for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over >the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common >failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs. No. It's TECO INTERNATIONAL, "a group of companies with over 70 years of experience serving the worldwide primary glass manufacturing industry. The TECO (TM) group provides the industry with glass-melting furnaces, batch plants, and complete plants for the production of all types of glass..." It also says "...TECO (TM) [is a] registered tradmark of Toledo Engineering Co., Inc." >EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type CHANGE that is. >I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: > >1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing > like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you > this IIRC). >2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. >3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) >4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! I've never done any real work with modes 2 and 4. I'm only in mode 2 long enough to say CHANGE. And you've completely ignored the possibility of running mode 3 on a VT52... >I feel sure I've asked this before and probably been answered but, if SOS >is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-) I once heard rumors, but I've completely forgotten them so that now I can just spread rumors that there once were rumors about Stopgap. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jun 7 16:34:39 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: VCF Link Contest Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802885@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> I've got some automated test tools available that could make this a shoe in. Naw... I wouldn't do that. :-) Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 3:15 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: VCF Link Contest > > > > I'm running a contest on the VCF website right now. If you > add a link to > your website pointing to the VCF and you garner the most > referals between > now and VCF 4.0, you'll win $50! > > Check out http://www.vintage.org/contests/link.html for > complete details. > > Sellam International Man of > Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/0d4fb1c5/attachment.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 7 19:05:24 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Need DEC MMJ stuffs Message-ID: <20000607190524.H29500@mrbill.net> Anybody know where I can get a quantity (<10) of DEC MMJ-to-MMJ cables (for hooking a VT320/420 to a MicroVAX / VAXstation) and some MMJ-to-DB25F / DB25M adapters? I tried contacting Tim Shoppa, but his zShops stuff wont let me order the adapters and he hasnt responded to multiple emails.... Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Jun 7 19:39:28 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Need DEC MMJ stuffs In-Reply-To: <20000607190524.H29500@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000607173506.01cc5510@208.226.86.10> How many and how long do they need to be? As I mentioned earlier I picked up one of the Ideal Industries crimpers at Fry's (part #30-497). Since that message I've actually built two cables, one 40' to run between my noisy VAX and the quiet upstairs where the VT340 is, and one "null modem" one to connect the console of a uV3100 to a VLC. Doing the DE9 or DB9 stuff is pretty easy if you make MMJ to RJ-12 cables. --Chuck (not a shop, but willing to help out if I can.) At 07:05 PM 6/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody know where I can get a quantity (<10) of >DEC MMJ-to-MMJ cables (for hooking a VT320/420 to a MicroVAX / >VAXstation) and some MMJ-to-DB25F / DB25M adapters? > >I tried contacting Tim Shoppa, but his zShops stuff wont let >me order the adapters and he hasnt responded to multiple emails.... From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 7 22:22:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? That's what I was wondering. A car being too small is no excuse. Superglue yourself to the 370s, and demand that the refuse-truck driver pick it (and you) up and take it (and you) to your house or you won't unglue yourself! Some things just call for drastic measures. ;-) ...and don't forget to offer to pay the driver a nice tip for his time. If that fails, just tell him his truck will go {k.*.a.*.b.*.0.*.0.*.m} if he doesn't cooperate, after all, you are on a mission of computer preservation, which, as we all know, may call for drastic measures (oh, yeah... don't worry, I'm sure the members of this group might consider helping with the legal fees if the wrong people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) Seriously, did you not contact someone about allowing you to have this hauled to your house, where you could have at least kept it outdoors in shipping pallets and covered with a tarp, as well as the wrap, until someone could have rescued it? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 00:32:06 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> References: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700 <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: If this is a dupe I appologize. My ISP's email freaked out big time just before I went into work, and it doesn't look like this made it out (if I read the bounce right). Figured I'd resend it since the list of links is useful. >It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist >distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the >procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the >hobbyist setup. Actually I suspect in his case he's installed the Commerical 7.1 kit, but the only real difference is the layout on the CD. However, you bring up an excellent point, I'd forgotten what a royal pain it is to get DECwindows running on a VAX as compared to on an Alpha. I've only installed DECwindows on one of my VAXen, and don't haven't even bothered with it on most of my Alpha's. On the Alpha you simply do the install, and then install and load the license PAKs. IIRC, I actually had to break out the manual to get it loaded on the VAX, how embarassing :^) >There's documentation a-plenty at: > > http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ > >It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet. > >-Seth Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much longer, as I've noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works. The frustrating thing is they've started putting up the doc's for individual software at different URL's, for example start here: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ (actually this looks like the second most useful besides the actual doc site, all kinds of good links). and find links to docs at: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/c/c_index.html http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ada/documentation.html http://www.digital.com/fortran/docs/ http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/pascal/documentation.html For a non-Y2k compliant web page see: :^) http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/cplus/cplus_index.html Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 05:29:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) In-Reply-To: <393E8E13.DCF6C966@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <393F91A5.4873.96FF7BB@localhost> > > The coolest thing I've > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > DUMPSTER. > *sighs* Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. That's the stuff i'm realy missing over here (BTW, I got my /390 compatible mini system two weeks ago - thanks to John Z.) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 8 07:44:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADC0@TEGNTSERVER> > EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type > CHANGE that is. I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: > > 1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing > like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you > this IIRC). > 2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. > 3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) > 4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! > > Are there more? > > >but the best thing to do > >with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC > >line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from > >the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. > > Boy it's been a while, I remember thinking SOS was very much > like the TRS-80 Model II EDTASM. Close enough! Other way around; SOS was first (on DEC-10). I got so accustomed to it that I copied Alan Miller's 8080 version into an extension of the old Processor Technology Software #1 (also known as SCS- Self Contained System), and later implemented it in PL/1 as part of a custom command environment for the primos operating system at revisions 17 and 18 (Prime later added its own command-line editing). I have the 8080 code for what I called 'SCSNEW' (it has a ram-based file system, cassette I/O, hooks into SOLOS for P-Tech SOL owners), code to drive an IMSAI UCRI tape board, debugger, and god-knows-what else I dumped into it and forgot about. The source was set up for Intel's Mac80 cross-assembler. You'd need to make a few changes to it for other assemblers. If anyone's interested in it, let me know... -doug q From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Jun 8 09:24:02 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Removing soldered components Message-ID: At my last job I had the luck to have access to a real/live solder sucker component remover. I found it on the top shelf of the electronics lab and fired it up. The rig was a small vacuum pump with a long hose attached to it, allowing the heated air to cool somewhat, with a glass tip. The glass tip was filled with some kind of mesh filter where the solder that was removed could cling. These little solder filters were replaceable. This glass tip was attached to a soldering iron. The vacuum pump was controlled by a foot switch. It took some trial and error to use the system. It takes some eye-hand coordination to operate this system. Don't try after 1-2 beers. I also need longer arms because my vision is extending. Works well for small number of components, not very production oriented. The whole system is probably still in the lab and hasn't been used since I left. "Solder sucker component remover" (TM) Mike "I'm waiting for all of my current memory to disappear and them I can live in the past." From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 09:40:24 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea Message-ID: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> This is what happens to you when you study biochemistry all week. I had a perverted idea of building a DOS emulator on a C64 -- i.e., have the C64 emulate the 8086 in software, either in real time or some sort of JIT compilation method. How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? Just a perverted idea, like I said. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "Garbage in -- gospel out" ------------------------------------------------- From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 09:35:51 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: [seth wrote:] > >It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist > >distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the > >procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the > >hobbyist setup. Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has been castrated by the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or TK70s? I don't need DECwindows, BTW. ...that is, if I can get my TK70 working. One of the TK70's lights blinks briefly when the system is powered on, then nothing, and I can't insert a tape into the drive. > Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much longer, as I've > noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works. How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have by buying DEC when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC. It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 10:15:30 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I >would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, >maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? You could execute from disk, requiring just enough memory to hold a disk sector. I.e., instead of reading memory by indexing into an array like: Instruction = Memory[ IP ]; do something like: Block = IP >> 7; /* 128-byte sector, anyone? */ Offset = IP & 0x7f; read( File, Block ); Instruction = Memory[ Offset ]; -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 10:20:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k or 33k alone. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 10:25:00 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> > I had a perverted idea of building a DOS emulator on a C64 -- i.e., have > the C64 emulate the 8086 in software, either in real time or some sort of > JIT compilation method. :)) > How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? If you'd like to boot DOS 2.11 (my recomendation) 128 K is sufficient for DOS and most tools. It should be possible to strip it down to run in as little as ~96 k, but below 64 K not even a complete boot is possible. DOS 1.X is able to run in 64 K, although it will be hard to find programs still able to run - after the introduction of DOS 2.0 everybody switched for the new file I/O (Unix style, without FCBs). CP/M 86 may be an alternativ way to go - way faster boot :) Also, based on my experiance of a 8080 emulator I did on the KIM in 1979, it will be hard to get a decent performance... I think the effective speed on a C64 will be something like or below a 0.1 MHz 8086 (my 8080 emulation archived an equivalent of a 0.10-0.25 MHz 8080), depending on the instruction mix of course Say, wouldn't a Software CP/M system more aprobiate for a first step ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 11:17:20 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Jun 8, 0 11:20:32 am" Message-ID: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? :: ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k ::or 33k alone. That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively instead. Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Jun 8 11:54:03 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91AC@MAIL10> Cameron: There are several sources for this info. Look for Ralf Brown. He made an "interrupt list" which is just a list of *all* interrupts. Mike Podanofsky wrote RxDOS, a DOS clone for the book "Dissecting DOS" from Addison-Wellsley. His company is API Software in New Hampshire. Try http://www.freedos.org/files/distributions/rxdos/ for a code distribution. The documentation and comments are excellent. -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:17 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Perverted DOS idea ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? :: ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k ::or 33k alone. That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively instead. Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 11:56:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <002001bfd00c$7819b980$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic manufacturing > plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are excellent. > However, > there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic pellets and blend > in > additives to reduce cost. This is a trick as old as the hills (and one of the reasons the old plastics fell apart quickly). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 11:58:34 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606.092804.-268915.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 > transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. > > TORCH! Unbeliever! Tune into the vintage military radio nets on 80m. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 12:14:00 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000608170903.59641.qmail@hotmail.com> Check out the freedos project, they've got src for their open source, GPL'd command.com available. http://www.freedos.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Perverted DOS idea > ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? > :: > ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k > ::or 33k alone. > > That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively > instead. > > Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking > of doing it. > > Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores > but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:11:09 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, > only that it did make a large difference in how effective > the radar was. Welll...I don't know about that. In the old days, most radarmen looked atthe old-fashioned A-scope just as much as the PPI-scope. Because the radar receivers were in general bad, noisy things, the gain tended to be set at a sweet spot, so there was a lot, but not too much, noise (false echos, sea return, general junk) on the PPI-scope. It really was just a broad overview, so the radarman could make fast choices as to what to examine out of the mess. The A-scope (or R-scope, if fancy) was then used to verify the echo, get the range, and interrogate with IFF. Azimuth was read from a compass repeater, generally built into the console. The Germans lost the radar war because they grew cocky. In 1940 they had the best, and thought that best would be good for many years. By 1942, they were proven wrong, and had to make up for a couple of years of stalled developement. They never had a prayer of catching up. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 12:12:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R. D. Davis wrote: >Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has been castrated by >the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the >thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as >much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a VAX/VMS was a name that *had* to go in the early 90's. Think about it, if you had your way we'd have VAX/VMS and AXP/VMS, which would create confusion, where there doesn't need to be any. Besides OpenVMS is as Open as just about any other OS out there. >complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or TK70s? I don't >need DECwindows, BTW. Best answer, get lucky and find a set. I wish the Hobbyist VAX V1 CD was still available for people, it had V5.5 - 6.1 on it. It also had all kinds of excellent software on it. Of course it was missing the layered products the V2 CD has. For the most part I agree on DECwindows, though I like having one system that can run it, and I normally just bring it up on my PowerMac using eXodus. There are a couple DECwindows apps I like to use. Still NiftyTelnet on my Mac can easily bring up a ton of terminal windows, so if that's all I need, that's the route I use. >How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have by buying DEC >when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those >poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware >that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC. >It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those >who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground. Compaq has done a lot of bad, but they've also done a lot of good. Sure it's wierd seeing a row of Compaq Rack's standing where some *old* DEC gear used to stand, but inside those racks is some beautiful OpenVMS hardware! To bad it belongs to another group and I can't touch it! Compaq might not be doing a lot to advertise OpenVMS, but they're apparently doing more than DEC had in recent years. Besides this new Hobbyist program that we all love, came about after Compaq got ahold of the company. Compaq does have a lot of junky toy PC's, but they've also got some pretty amazing x86 boxes. Of course they're running a horrible OS. What is disturbing about Compaq is that they continue to push Windows and for the most part ignore the OS's that they own. Of course it you like VMS and want to see it successful, how about doing something about it like writing some software, or telling people how great it is. It's in desparate need of apps, and most people don't even know it is still around. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 12:12:48 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores >but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. There's a file floating about the net somewhere called "the interrupt list". It's a comprehensive list of the ints used by PC software. I have a very old copy saved somewhere; let me know if you can't find it. Warning; it's huge. Barring that, "Undocumented DOS" and "Dissecting DOS" are the ones on my bookshelf. "Dissecting DOS" presents the source code for a DOS clone in C. I'm not seeing "Undocumented DOS" at fatbrain, though. "Dissecting DOS" is at http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=020162687X Looks like there are other interesting books as well, although I don't know that I would buy them without getting a chance to look at them first: "Caldera DR-DOS Complete" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=1889492035 includes a CD-ROM that I would assume probably includes the source code for the DR-DOS kernel. That's the sort of assumption I'd like to check out by looking at the book before I plunk down my hard-earned cash, though. On the other hand, I already have the source to the DR-DOS kernel lying about... Caldera _used_ to have almost all of the DR-DOS documentation online. I'm not finding much now (I'm sure glad I downloaded a copy of it while it was available; now if I can just figure out where I saved it...); there's a page at http://www.drdos.com/, but all it offers is a download of a DOSEMU disk image for use under Linux. "FreeDOS Kernel" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=0879304367 looks to be a competitor to "Dissecting DOS". "Uninterrupted Interrupts" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=0201409666 appears to be a hardcopy of the famed "interrupt list". -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 12:13:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals Message-ID: An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the old Macintoshes consume less electicity. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 12:13:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just tune around 3880khz(they move up or down a little maybe 3-4khz), every night there is at least a handful of old buzzards in there. Allison On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 > > transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. > > > > > > TORCH! > > Unbeliever! > > Tune into the vintage military radio nets on 80m. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:20:23 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge > to do the needed signal processing and presentation took > longer to develop. It's the subtleties of the reflected signal > that has information of greater interest beyond simple range. I must disagree, as the old A, B, and C-scopes (and derivatives) were present and used on nearly all radars until 1948 or so. The radarman did the signal processing in his head, mostly by looking at the (nearly*) raw video coming off the receiver. By the late 1950s, however, the signal processing did start to get complex (one of these days I have to rescue a vacuum tube based vector display from a guy. Hundreds of tubes.). *downconverted, of course, and maybe some anti-jam stuff thrown in (basically controlls to play with the AGC constants). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 8 12:20:22 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: H89 Computer For Sale - $10? References: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> Message-ID: <008001bfd16d$d4bd9d20$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> I'm selling my H89 computer. I built it but never used it much. Consequently, it is really in mint condition. I've placed it on EBay with a starting bid of $10. Here's a picture and more info if anyone is interested. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=352955051 The computer is located in Seattle. Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 12:24:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Old Macs = cheap terminals (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14655.54973.245101.329782@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, R. D. Davis wrote: > An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty > of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple > Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than > terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals > running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such > as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the > old Macintoshes consume less electicity. I second this. There are several VERY high-quality terminal emulators available for Macs. That same Mac can also sit on the ethernet for lan access as well (for the later NuBus machines, that is)... -Dave McGuire From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:26:13 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I'm still kicking myself for not buying some 4040 (or was it 4004) CPU > chips, they had them for a couple of bucks, long ago... Yes, but now that everyone and his brother has them on Ebay, the value has dropped. Of course I have spend time looking for the boards as well, but I have not found them. And every time I am there, Phil shows me a new room that I have never been in (its a trip)! > Any idea if there are tuning units available to bring it into a ham band? > The one that's in there (TU-17 I think???) is for 2-3 MHz, so it missed > both of the obvious choices. TU-18-A covers the 80m band. Send your shipping address. And promise me you will never modify it or the transmitter. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 8 12:56:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: ClassicHam (was Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608105246.00d3b730@208.226.86.10> I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge represented on this group, but would like to respectfully suggest that once a conversation is off topic for both the group *and* the subject line under which it was started, that should be a very loud signal to the participants to take it elsewhere. At least change the subject line folks! Thanks, --Chuck At 01:20 PM 6/8/00 -0400, it was written: > > Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge > >I must disagree, as the old A, B, and C-scopes (and derivatives) were >present and used on nearly all radars until 1948 or so. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 8 12:47:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 7, 0 11:22:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000608/30e5e0aa/attachment.ksh From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 13:03:44 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals References: Message-ID: <20000608175846.90860.qmail@hotmail.com> You can get Mac SE's used for under $10 usually. These can have ethernet cards installed, makes a great terminal with datacomet or bettertelnet. I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals > > An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty > of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple > Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than > terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals > running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such > as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the > old Macintoshes consume less electicity. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:26:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200 References: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> Message-ID: <20000608142648.A6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >If you'd like to boot DOS 2.11 (my recomendation) 128 K is sufficient >for DOS and most tools. It should be possible to strip it down to run >in as little as ~96 k, but below 64 K not even a complete boot is possible. > >DOS 1.X is able to run in 64 K, although it will be hard to find programs >still able to run - after the introduction of DOS 2.0 everybody switched >for the new file I/O (Unix style, without FCBs). FWIW, PC-DOS V2.0 runs OK in 64 KB. You can't fit much else in there with it, but it does come up OK. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:31:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu>; from ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:20AM -0700 References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000608143105.B6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:20AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores >but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list (which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation is accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll probably want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech Ref manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're still in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute some native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 13:33:00 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: R. D. Davis write: >An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty >of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple >Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than >terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals >running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such >as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the >old Macintoshes consume less electicity. I wanted to do this bad for my Linux PC back in the '92-93 timeframe, before Linux was really able to run X-Windows. I wanted one because it was so nice and small, but in those days they were still out of my price range (especially since at that time I was a PC user). These days I use VT420's whenever possible since I can plug one terminal into two computers without any extra hardware. OTOH, I regularly use my G4 PowerMac as a Terminal :^) It makes a great X-Terminal using eXodus, using 100Mbit switched ethernet X-Windows/DECwindows is nice and fast :^) Plus NiftyTelnet is one of my favorite terminal emulators. I also like monitors with dual inputs, and Digital KVM switches :^) Still if I didn't have a good supply of DEC terminals I'd probably be using Compact Mac's. Another good solution for the terminally challenged is *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a terminal when nothing else is handy, and I'm currently looking for a more modern laptop with colour to use as an X-terminal. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:41:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:26:13PM -0400 References: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000608144159.C6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:26:13PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Of course I have spend time looking for the boards as well, but I have >not found them. And every time I am there, Phil shows me a new room that >I have never been in (its a trip)! Too bad it's not really on the way anywhere, I'd love to drop on them some time but it's not worth ~14 hours each way! Ohio sure has a lot of wide open spaces... >TU-18-A covers the 80m band. Send your shipping address. And promise me you >will never modify it or the transmitter. Wow! Well let me know how much you want for it, but before I commit to the deal, do you know where I can find documentation on the BC-223? I have nothing at all on it, so I don't know what it takes to feed one, and I don't want to swear I'll never modify anything until I know how dependent it is on external stuff that I'll never have (there are a couple of big gnarly multi-pin connectors on the side so I'm wondering if there's a control box or what -- even though there seem to be enough switches and knobs for everything I can think of already on the front panel). Boy I really wish I hadn't forgotten my Cantenna at an old apartment, well if it's only 10 W then I should be able to solder up a bunch of 2W carbon comp resistors and that will be good enough to play with it before sicking it on the airwaves. I can only imagine what the output impedance wants to be, with the big ceramic separate outputs. Somewhere I still have most of a roll of honest-to-god ladderline, but I don't know if a full-wave loop would fit in my yard (guessing that the impedance is a bunch higher than 50 ohms). Thanks!!! John Wilson KC1P/2 D Bit From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 13:38:59 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Legal help for computer rescuers] > > people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you > > a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) > > Is that what's known as a 'file transfer protocol'? So, that's what FTP originally meant! :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 13:45:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: <20000608175846.90860.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Message-ID: >I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss >linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) Hey! I like that idea! I've got a SE/30 with a SCSI-Ethernet adapter, I'd not thought of turning it into a Sniffer, and I've been wanting to build one for when I want to see what's going on with my network. I'd never even thought of using a Mac for that, I'd been planning on getting an older PC laptop for that. Actually if I were to use a Mac, I'd probably go with my PowerBook 540c that I don't use much any more. GACK!!!! $995.00 Suggested Retail price?!?!? I don't suppose you know of any *affordable* sniffer's for the Mac? It looks like a beauty, and even does DECnet (so it does everything I'd need from the looks of it), but that's way to much for hobbyist use. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 14:15:43 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals References: Message-ID: <20000608191057.63093.qmail@hotmail.com> Try to snag an older version. I picked up Etherpeek 3.0 for $50 from a used software store on-line. Works fine, or you can do linux/MacBSD and get a sniffer for free. No pretty X interface though. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals > >I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss > >linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) > > Hey! I like that idea! I've got a SE/30 with a SCSI-Ethernet adapter, I'd > not thought of turning it into a Sniffer, and I've been wanting to build > one for when I want to see what's going on with my network. I'd never even > thought of using a Mac for that, I'd been planning on getting an older PC > laptop for that. Actually if I were to use a Mac, I'd probably go with my > PowerBook 540c that I don't use much any more. > > > GACK!!!! $995.00 Suggested Retail price?!?!? I don't suppose you know of > any *affordable* sniffer's for the Mac? It looks like a beauty, and even > does DECnet (so it does everything I'd need from the looks of it), but > that's way to much for hobbyist use. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 14:19:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals (Jason McBrien) References: <20000608191057.63093.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14655.61873.696148.784695@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, Jason McBrien wrote: > Try to snag an older version. I picked up Etherpeek 3.0 for $50 from a used > software store on-line. Works fine, or you can do linux/MacBSD and get a > sniffer for free. No pretty X interface though. I seem to remember having seen a gorgeous GUI-fied Unix packet sniffer package from Curtin University in Australia. PacketMan or something? -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 14:23:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000608144159.C6268@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Boy I really wish I hadn't forgotten my Cantenna at an old apartment, well > if it's only 10 W then I should be able to solder up a bunch of 2W carbon > comp resistors and that will be good enough to play with it before sicking That would work, use series parallel combo of 100ohm 2W (8 of them) to get 50, put them in a paint can of mineral oil and it will take at least 30-40W and work to 30+mhz if assembled using or copper strips. > be, with the big ceramic separate outputs. Somewhere I still have most of > a roll of honest-to-god ladderline, but I don't know if a full-wave loop > would fit in my yard (guessing that the impedance is a bunch higher than > 50 ohms). Most common mods are to go from balanced to coax. Ladder line feeding a 60ft end fed zepp or marconi will do well. At that power level you have to make sure the modulation is good and very clean or you loose inteligbility. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 14:53:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <20000608195359.2203.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Another good solution for the terminally challenged is > *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only > real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a > terminal when nothing else is handy... I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the Kermit-ly challenged, modern versions contain an IP stack; just add packet driver; that's how my Commodore Colt is on my network). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 14:55:27 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Z-Fest In-Reply-To: <20000608142648.A6268@dbit.dbit.com> References: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200 Message-ID: <3940164F.14505.B762FAC@localhost> Since it's only one month away, a small reminder for the anual Z-Fest 2000 on Saturday, Sunday 8th and 9th of July in Gueglingen (near Heilbronn, Germany). Two days of fun, among die hard CP/M nerds. From old 8-Bit stuff to brand new _superpowered_ Z280 systems in a cosy seting. http://www.zfest.de/ Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Jun 8 14:53:10 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfd183$2cab2d80$36e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic -> manufacturing -> > plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are -> excellent. -> > However, -> > there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic -> pellets and blend -> > in -> > additives to reduce cost. -> -> This is a trick as old as the hills (and one of the reasons the old -> plastics fell apart quickly). And the new plastics will also, since this practice is still widely in use today. Even the dyes used to color plastics degrade its performance over time. Bill From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 15:25:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <20000608143105.B6268@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Jun 8, 0 02:31:05 pm" Message-ID: <200006082025.NAA08734@oa.ptloma.edu> ::>Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores ::>but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. :: ::People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list ::(which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), ::but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation is ::accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll probably ::want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech Ref ::manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at ::very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're still ::in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute some ::native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. Well, it would be a sullied implementation. I'm thinking of having a native 6502 IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (and probably COMMAND.COM), so the INTs would need to be simulated by that: hence the list :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge ------- From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 15:30:20 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home References: Message-ID: <20000608202523.80042.qmail@hotmail.com> I. It would not have fit in my garage much less my house. II. My dedicated 220V Line is being taxed enough as it is. III. I was alone and far far from home. IV. As I approached the dumpster the manager of the property disposition started chasing me with a broom. V. I've already rescued a Data General Nova 3 which is much more fascinating to play with. BLINKENLIGHTS!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Sellam Ismail > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > > > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > > > WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? > > That's what I was wondering. A car being too small is no excuse. > Superglue yourself to the 370s, and demand that the refuse-truck > driver pick it (and you) up and take it (and you) to your house or you > won't unglue yourself! Some things just call for drastic > measures. ;-) ...and don't forget to offer to pay the driver a nice > tip for his time. If that fails, just tell him his truck will go > {k.*.a.*.b.*.0.*.0.*.m} if he doesn't cooperate, after all, you are on > a mission of computer preservation, which, as we all know, may call > for drastic measures (oh, yeah... don't worry, I'm sure the members of > this group might consider helping with the legal fees if the wrong > people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you > a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) > > Seriously, did you not contact someone about allowing you to have this > hauled to your house, where you could have at least kept it outdoors > in shipping pallets and covered with a tarp, as well as the wrap, > until someone could have rescued it? > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 16:07:05 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000608202523.80042.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > I. It would not have fit in my garage much less my house. No problem. Put in in the front or back yard in a make-shift shelter and just use it in the winter, attaching ducts and fans to your house to save on your heating bill (if you heat via natural gas, oil, coal or wood). :-) > II. My dedicated 220V Line is being taxed enough as it is. No problem. A call yo your utility company can get you more power. :-) > III. I was alone and far far from home. No problem. That's what office movers are for. Better yet, pretend to be a property owner and call a refuse company to "empty" the dumpster... that is, into a waiting truck a few miles away. > IV. As I approached the dumpster the manager of the property disposition > started chasing me with a broom. No problem. Just use an RL02 cartridge as a shield. :-) ..or grab the broom away from him and pretend you're insane, while offering him a bribe. > V. I've already rescued a Data General Nova 3 which is much more fascinating > to play with. BLINKENLIGHTS!!! Ok, I can't argue with that. ...Although you can add blinkenlights to the IBM system, as there's plenty of sheet metal there to drill holes for light sockets into. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Thu Jun 8 16:44:19 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel up to the PC running Sim. Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of getting something like this to work? -- Tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 8 16:50:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> from "Eros, Anthony" at Jun 8, 0 04:44:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000608/5eaffd2b/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 17:22:56 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <004101bfd198$18f1d7c0$0400c0a8@winbook> This may be workable if the PDP-11 simulator runs under DOS or LINUX. If it runs under Windows, the OS will interfere with your attempts to talk directly to I/O. If you have a version for LINUX, you'll need one of the EPP port drivers, but that's what I'd recommend you attempt first. EPP uses the parallel printer port to mux and steer data into your target application. You must understand what it does, and how slowly, ( it's more or less rate-limited to about a 4 MB/sec transfer rate, but that's an asymptote.) If you find a way to make it work, and it works quite straightforwardly under DOS, then you write addresses and commands to one location mapped into the parallel data port, 0x37C, and data to 0x37C. The hardware will generate strobes to facilitate such transfers, so you don't have to wiggle the strobes with software. It has a Data Strobe and an Address strobe, provides for an interrupt if you want one, and various other features, none of which require you use them. Though this form of bus-isolated I/O is very tempting, it's a good idea to keep in mind that the IC in which the printer port lives is normally a high-pin-count device soldered to the motherboard. If you break it, you have to use an off-motherboard circuit to provide the printer port, as well as whatever other peripherals are lost along with it. That, these days, can include lots of functions you'd rather not lose. It's a good idea to isolate your circuitry from the motherboard with series resistors, or even picofuses, and provide adequate buffering to make it safe to use. If you know enough about the PC and the way the simulator runs on it, you need merely drive your indicators in a way that reflects the status of the simulated PDP-n, hving patched your code into the simulator's primary dispatch loop. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eros, Anthony To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:44 PM Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > up to the PC running Sim. > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > getting something like this to work? > > -- Tony > From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 17:31:07 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted Mac-OS idea (was: Perverted DOS idea) Message-ID: <20000608223108.87999.qmail@hotmail.com> >::>Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of >bookstores >::>but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. >:: >::People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list >::(which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), >::but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation >is >::accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll >probably >::want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech >Ref >::manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at >::very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're >still >::in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute >some >::native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. > >Well, it would be a sullied implementation. I'm thinking of having a native >6502 IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (and probably COMMAND.COM), so the INTs would >need >to be simulated by that: hence the list :-) > >-- >----------------------------- personal page: >http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu >-- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge >------- No way! You wouldn't want to ruin a Commodore 64 with that crap! Hell, while you guys are at it, why don't you try to port Mac-OS, or worse yet, MS Windows, to the Commodore 64. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 17:31:36 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <004701bfd199$4f4e5b80$0400c0a8@winbook> There are plug-in boards that provide an extra SPP/EPP/ECP port, which is safer than simply using the motherboard-resident one. That would be less trouble if you were to break it than would be the one on the motherboard. The EPP port is more desirable, IMHO, simply because it isolates your "hobby-project" from the inards of the computer. It also provides a handy connector, and a simple protocol by which to provide yourself with up to 256 I/O ports in either direction, without having to open the box except to plug in the parallel port card. If one happened to come with a DLL with which you can write WINDOWS code for your port, so much the better! One rather important aspect, of course, is that the printer port can really drive the properly terminated cable, while a "normal" MOS LSI for parallel I/O, e.g. 8255, 6821, etc, can't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > getting something like this to work? > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. > > The hardware shouldn't be too bad. The 11/45 frontpanel board is just the > lights, switches, and lamp drivers IIRC. So you'd need to provide : > > Power supplies (+5V for the logic and +15V for the lamps IIRC). > Input ports on the PC to take inputs from the switches > Output ports on the PC to drive the lamps. > > You could either build your own I/O port cards using (say) the 8255 > chip, or buy them ready made ($$$ since they don't sell in the quantities > of most PC bits), or with a bit (OK, a lot) of logic, hang the whole > thing off a printer port. > > Then you have to modify the simulator to talk to these I/O ports. Just a > Simple Matter of Programming (tm). Eeek! > > -tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 16:49:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <002001bfd193$79422940$7364c0d0@ajp166> >I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local >box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with >Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no >flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. Allison From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 17:45:33 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smarty.smart.net Thu Jun 8 17:50:14 2000 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200006082250.SAA23491@smarty.smart.net> I found this on comp.sys.3b1 in case anyone can save it: ------- start of forwarded message ------- Path: news.smart.net!outfeed2.news.cais.net!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news4.mco.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> From: Average Torvaldsian Organization: Happy enough without any, thanks for asking... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.37 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.att,comp.sys.3b1 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.231.1 X-Trace: news4.mco 960142535 216.78.231.1 (Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT Xref: news.smart.net comp.sys.att:2874 comp.sys.3b1:1794 I have a 3B2/600 to give to whomever wants it. It belonged to the local AT&T group here in Orlando FL (as an asset tag), and is apparently the only survivor of three that fed Usenet into the Central Florida area. It works fine, boots without problem, and includes a console terminal, keyboard, user books, and a number of tapes. One of those is said to be a bootable tape with a complete backup. Sixteen megs ram, two 120 meg SCSI drives, 5.25" floppy and tape drives. It does not have an net card, though: that died and was removed before I got it, nor does it have any disks. I don't have any time to devote to the poor thing, it looks all forlorn sitting in the corner, and I'd really like to see it go to someone who has the time to get the thing running. Obviously, due to the size and weight, I can not ship it, but it is here to be picked up in east Orange County, Fla, pretty much anytime. If you are close by in a surrounding county, I would be willing to bring it to you. If interested, or and we'll arrange pickup/drop off. Max. (ps: during the last week of June and first week of July, I will be in the Davenport (Scott County) area of Iowa, and if someone in the surrounding area is interested in it, let me know, as I'd also be willing to bring it for delivery.) -- All parts should go together without forcing... By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925. ------- end of forwarded message ------- -- -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 8 17:55:31 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> How many people on this list have fantasized for even a moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all the lights & switches accurate and active? P.S. a PIC is a pretty good way to get 32-1 signals in and out over an SIO line. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 8 18:17:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10> >Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any >computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and >switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack >panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of >the PDP-11s of incomplete design? Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. The address lines are present, just wire those up to lights. Various signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build the switch register to deposit directly into memory. Decoding an address for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? Displaying registers would be difficult to do "on the fly" however you could probably force the CPU to execute a MOV Rx, #DISPLY fairly easily. On a tangentially related subject there was a recent series of articles in Circuit Cellar Ink on building your own CPU in an FPGA (see www.fpgacpu.org) and it included a VGA interface (which they displayed characters on) clearly however if you were using it as God intended you would create a virtual front panel :-) --Chuck From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Jun 8 18:21:18 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I haven't had -that- particular fantasy, but another one... ... creating copies of certain "classic" machines. If you were able to buy, say, an original Nova in a box that for all the detail you wanted was the same as the original, and inside had the same chips on the same size PC board, would that be cool? Sure, you're have to use materials you could get today to do it, but accurately done, it might be interesting. I'm -not- saying building up clones of certain rare old computers and trying to pass them off as originals, but rather, trying to make clones that are undistinguishable from the original. Maybe it's nuts, but, as Tony recently said, we're all nuts on this list! ;-) -Mike p.s. To those who posted pointers to the "6-chip" Woz diskette interface, thanks! Nice stuff. On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > P.S. a PIC is a pretty good way to get 32-1 signals in and > out over an SIO line. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 18:34:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <20000608233422.605.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and > have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard jack, but there isn't one on an XT laptop; I was just going to wire one in). There are parameters you can tell the PE3 to use when connecting the driver, but I'd have to look them up; I haven't actually used a parallel port adapter since I was at McMurdo. > What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, > linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. AFAIK, there will never be any newer drivers because Xircom isn't forthcoming with their internals details. I tried for a long time to get info out of them so I could adapt a PE3 to the Amiga, but they formally rejected my written propsal because they didn't want to be in anything but the DOS market. Since then, they've been more flexible, so the newer PCMCIA Xircom NICs work, but I have this CE-10BT that only works under older stuff (fortunately, I do happen to have a PCMCIA NIC or two that _is_ supported under Linux; my CE3B-100BTX the only thing I have for the laptop that will go 100Mbps and isn't Cardbus). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 8 18:39:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> (John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com) References: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000608233931.29538.qmail@brouhaha.com> > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? And active? How would they be active? I don't even know what most of them do, but they generally control hardware that isn't going to be useful except in an actual Apollo mission or equivalent. Certainly I have no reason to want to be able to control a secondary coolant loop pump or SPS gimbal motors, for instance. As it happens, I have an "Apollo 13 Controls and Displays" poster less then three feet from where I'm sitting. See http://www.papertrainer.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 19:27:01 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:06:42 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Hinote supervisor password Message-ID: <200006090106.VAA26433@world.std.com> I know this is on the more contemporary side of the 10 year rule, but could someone contact me off-list who knows how to reset or override the supervisor password on a DEC Hinote (not ultra, not 2000)? Thanks in advance... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 20:16:00 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (Richard Erlacher) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> PC replaces Cray...film at 11. Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of computing. -Dave McGuire On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R. D. Davis > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to > do > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front > panel > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance > of > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you > ask. > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > -- > > R. D. Davis > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > 410-744-4900 > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 20:16:04 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize about having my money wasted. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Jun 8 20:20:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Blinkenlights and Simulation In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> from "Eros, Anthony" at "Jun 8, 2000 04:44:19 pm" Message-ID: <200006090120.VAA12711@bg-tc-ppp745.monmouth.com> > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > up to the PC running Sim. > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > getting something like this to work? > > -- Tony > > What I'd love to see is the 11/45 front panel added to the Sim under X11 so it would have an emulated panel like the Mac and Doug Jones' PDP8e emulator. Any Unix/C/X11 programmers out there? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 20:30:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? Whether I've "worked" with computers as a hobby at home, for clients, or for employers, I've always felt as though they were toys to play with and to experiment with. Of course, I did make sure that my employers didn't see me in the computer rooms with screwdrivers, etc. as I took things apart to examine them, although I did get in big trouble when a former supervisor, who told me that there were no programming languages installed on the company's VAX, discovered a bunch of assembly code in with my files... I sure proved her wrong! :-) ...of course I hacked a game of adventure in DCL there as well, I showed here again that there was indeed a programming language on the VAX, and that wasn't exactly appreciated when discovered either, oddly. Ah well... some employers can be rather strange. I don't have to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 8 20:51:11 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400 References: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize > about having my money wasted. Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. -Seth From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 20:50:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > computing. > > -Dave McGuire > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: R. D. Davis > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to > > do > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front > > panel > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance > > of > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you > > ask. > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > -- > > > R. D. Davis > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 20:54:48 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <001f01bfd1b5$b355e5a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Unfortunately, though the behemoths of yesteryear still do what was then asked of them, what's evolved more than anything else is what people (oh, yes ... the people have changed a mite, too) ask of them. Since they CAN play this week's fantasy game, they do, and since they can show detailed pictures of the smut, gore, or whatever else someone's into, they do that, too. The CRAY and VAX machines didn't do that as well. That's not to say they couldn't, but, since nobody would pay what they'd have had to, they didn't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, > that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that > most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. > > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? > Whether I've "worked" with computers as a hobby at home, for clients, > or for employers, I've always felt as though they were toys to play > with and to experiment with. Of course, I did make sure that my > employers didn't see me in the computer rooms with screwdrivers, > etc. as I took things apart to examine them, although I did get in big > trouble when a former supervisor, who told me that there were no > programming languages installed on the company's VAX, discovered a > bunch of assembly code in with my files... I sure proved her wrong! > :-) ...of course I hacked a game of adventure in DCL there as well, I > showed here again that there was indeed a programming language on the > VAX, and that wasn't exactly appreciated when discovered either, > oddly. Ah well... some employers can be rather strange. I don't have > to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I > found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard > shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the > building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next > break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to > go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) > > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 20:31:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, sjm wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize > > about having my money wasted. > > Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. The Sethinator! Touche! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:51:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <007f01bfd1b5$f98cc020$7364c0d0@ajp166> >Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. > >The address lines are present, just wire those up to lights. Various Nope! they are address/data multiplexed... you have to latch the address and data to display it. >signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build nope, it will bus timout on you. >the switch register to deposit directly into memory. Decoding an address >for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as Yes it would. >well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? Displaying >registers would be difficult to do "on the fly" however you could probably >force the CPU to execute a MOV Rx, #DISPLY fairly easily. Software loop on an interrupt would write to static latches to do that. >Circuit Cellar Ink on building your own CPU in an FPGA (see >www.fpgacpu.org) and it included a VGA interface (which they displayed >characters on) clearly however if you were using it as God intended you >would create a virtual front panel :-) interesting. The reason for frontpannels in the first place was more diagnostic in nature and to start them up. When ram and rom got cheaper along with mass storage the whole point of the frontpannel becomes passe`. My 8f would be hard to use without it as it has no rom and it's a maintenance tool. From the other side, it would be pointless on the 11/73 as the rom monitor is much more useful than any front pannel. The ALTAIR was the machine that made having a frontpannel when rom would do clear for me. It was a lot of hardware to do what a simple rom card could do better. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:41:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <007e01bfd1b5$f789eb40$7364c0d0@ajp166> >At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- >directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer >models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 Ah ha, I wondered. >can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard >jack, but there isn't one on an XT laptop; I was just going to wire >one in). There are parameters you can tell the PE3 to use when connecting I know, remember I said I have a few. I'll have to try one on the XT laptop. Allison From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 21:05:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Australian Totalisator Message-ID: Here is a great website that documents a until now unknown (to me at least) tabulating system invented in Australia in around 1913 used at horse tracks. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~bconlon/ It is a pretty amazing history. It extends into the digital computer age and goes into some detail about the use of PDP 11's which eventually replaced the mechanical and then electromechanical design. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 22:15:07 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Fixin' der Tandy 2 floppydrivenspiegelthingengruppebochs Message-ID: <200006090315.UAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> Good news und bat news. I got a nice Tandy 200 package today, unit, power supplies, manuals and even some Club 100 disks in the original hard case. Very nice and the machine, after a little of fiddling and a cold start, is running well. That's the good news. The bad news, alas, is the 3.5" RS-232 floppy that came with it. (Yes, RS-232 floppy drive; hopefully someone has seen one of these.) It will not power up on either the power supply (original power supply, btw, which works with the M200 just fine), or new batteries. All it does is flash its low battery light briefly, spin for about a second, and shut off. I took a look at the board but couldn't see anything physically shot. Anyone have experience with these drives? What are my options? Part of getting this thing was so that I would have a floppy to save on, and maybe even get my 8201A to talk to it :-) Thanks in advance. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. -- Kehlog Albran ----------- From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:09:11 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of which I didn't have. Wordstar Ver. 3 Spellstar Correctstar Mailmerge The Speller Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) Polyplot Statistix Ver. 2.0 Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) 1988 Subscriber's disk Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) 100/150 System Demo 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) 150 Computer Tutor 150 MS Basic 150 Application Master 150 MS Pascal 150 System Work disk 150 Application Work disk 100 series MS Fortran These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my FTP site soon. Ernest From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 8 22:09:09 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> References: ; from rdd@smart.net on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400 Message-ID: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Date sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:51:11 -0700 From: sjm To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize about > > having my money wasted. > > Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. > > -Seth > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could look like a tremendous waste of money and time. The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! We have everything we need, right here." I've been following the space program for as long as I can remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:10:40 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200006082250.SAA23491@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: <000101bfd1c0$4ada26c0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> There are a couple of these at REPC in Seattle also, if anyone is interested. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of R. D. Davis Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:50 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) I found this on comp.sys.3b1 in case anyone can save it: ------- start of forwarded message ------- Path: news.smart.net!outfeed2.news.cais.net!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1. bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news4.m co.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> From: Average Torvaldsian Organization: Happy enough without any, thanks for asking... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.37 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.att,comp.sys.3b1 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.231.1 X-Trace: news4.mco 960142535 216.78.231.1 (Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT Xref: news.smart.net comp.sys.att:2874 comp.sys.3b1:1794 I have a 3B2/600 to give to whomever wants it. It belonged to the local AT&T group here in Orlando FL (as an asset tag), and is apparently the only survivor of three that fed Usenet into the Central Florida area. It works fine, boots without problem, and includes a console terminal, keyboard, user books, and a number of tapes. One of those is said to be a bootable tape with a complete backup. Sixteen megs ram, two 120 meg SCSI drives, 5.25" floppy and tape drives. It does not have an net card, though: that died and was removed before I got it, nor does it have any disks. I don't have any time to devote to the poor thing, it looks all forlorn sitting in the corner, and I'd really like to see it go to someone who has the time to get the thing running. Obviously, due to the size and weight, I can not ship it, but it is here to be picked up in east Orange County, Fla, pretty much anytime. If you are close by in a surrounding county, I would be willing to bring it to you. If interested, or and we'll arrange pickup/drop off. Max. (ps: during the last week of June and first week of July, I will be in the Davenport (Scott County) area of Iowa, and if someone in the surrounding area is interested in it, let me know, as I'd also be willing to bring it for delivery.) -- All parts should go together without forcing... By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925. ------- end of forwarded message ------- -- -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:18:00 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights (pack o' wild dogs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bfd1c1$5125fa80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I don't have to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 I used to work for as a network admin for a snowboard company outside of Seattle, and dogs were allowed in the office. Every morning, there would be a pack of wild dogs making the rounds, desk to desk, begging for food, etc.. We had 22 dogs in the office at one time, on certain days, and they put on quite a show. It was fun but I'll bet that you won't see it happening soon at the offices downtown. Ernest From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 22:33:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (R. D. Davis) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, R. D. Davis wrote: > It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, > that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that > most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. A sick joke, indeed. > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? This is a good point. While I will slap anyone who walks into my computer room (containing about twenty machines, no PCs, well over a terabyte of disk storage, one Cray...some "classic" machines, some not) and calls anything a "toy"...I enjoy working with these systems so much that I can honestly call it "fun". As much fun as retrocomputing on the older PDP and VAX systems, as a matter of fact. So is it really that offensive to call them "toys"? Maybe not. One must not forget, however, that there *are* PDPs, VAXen, and Crays that are *not* so old. The PC marketeers would have everyone believe that anything that isn't a PC is old technology. That simply isn't the case. There are new (current technology) PDP11 systems (Mentec), there are new (albeit based on older technology) VAXen, and there are certainly new Crays. It's a stretch, but it seems that preserving "classic" computers is almost an exercise in preserving anything that's not a current Windoze box. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 22:34:31 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (Richard Erlacher) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.26055.814976.217001@phaduka.neurotica.com> For a lot of things, maybe...but lots of computational tasks simply aren't well suited to running on a thousand tiny buzzing Intel processors. -Dave McGuire On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at > 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave McGuire > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > > computing. > > > > -Dave McGuire > > > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements > and > > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: R. D. Davis > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd > like to > > > do > > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the > front > > > panel > > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest > chance > > > of > > > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what > you > > > ask. > > > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then > the > > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > R. D. Davis > > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 22:41:18 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Q-bus (was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights) Message-ID: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. > > > >signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build > > nope, it will bus timout on you. Boy did we find that out the hard way. The Software Results Q-Board was built back in the days of the MicroVAX-I and MicroPDP-11. The designers picked some time (by tapping off of a stage on a divide-by-N counter) to timeout while waiting for a DMA cycle. It was well outside the Q-bus spec of the day. This board worked in MicroVAX-II and -III designs with no complaint. Eventually, someone wanted to stick a Q-Board in a VAX 4000 with a TLZ04 interface. By the time this machine came out, the Q-bus was no longer implemented in the way it once was. Certain cards were no longer "in spec". The upshot of this was that the TLZ04 interface could grab the bus longer than the Q-Board would wait. The fix was to redesign the bus timeout circuit (a cut and a jump and a new PAL) because DEC sure wasn't going to change their interface to work in an older Qbus box. It took us quite a while to find this one because our board didn't change and there were no problems in 99% of the VAX 4000s out there. It was a piggy controller. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 21:43:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > We have everything we need, right here." Bad example :) > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Yeah! ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 23:21:36 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. > > Yeah! I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we going to find a place to ship Trent Lott? From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 00:16:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could > look like a tremendous waste of money and time. Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Is the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have originated without government intervention and become just as popular? > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets everywhere. :-) :-) :-) > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > We have everything we need, right here." Hmmm... interesting to think about. > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. You may be surprised that I agree with you: there are other reasons besides that. For example, the space program also exists so that large corporations can make billions of dollars in profits and use some of those profits to grant favors to the politicians who helped them make the profits extorted from taxpayers. More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a relatively small number of carefully selected people and other creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point in that? However, at the rate things are going, we'll probably cause our own extinction because of overpopulation and the resulting damage to the environment, long before we can find another planet to destroy. > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their abilities have been put to better use for society? > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Yes, but I wonder how much of this is actually necessary, and if it really does do much to improve the quality of people's lives. After all, the technology used in building comfortable houses to live in has been stable for many years. The automobile hasn't really improved much since the 1970s. The field of medicine would probably have done just as well, and perhaps better, if the money was spent on it, and, who knows, those horrid HMOs may never have even come to exist. Have the foods we eat improved as a result of the space program? Have people become kinder and more civil to one another as a result of the space program? Has the space program had any positive influence on spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that can also slice the one who created it. Perhaps it's been useful for the strategic defense initiative, but, that's been delayed and our most trustworthy and esteemed (<-sarcasm intended) president has crawled on his hands and knees to Russia asking for their permission for us to implement it! Perhaps he's so used to crawling on his hands and knees submitting to Hillary that he just can't help this, but that's no excuse, is it? I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking something, I'd very much like to know about it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 00:35:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we going to find > a place to ship Trent Lott? ROFL! :-) Hopefully it will be a place where he can't continue to protect horse abusers... I understand he's all for the protection of the torture, called soring, that some Tennessee Walker horses endure in order for their walk to be "ehnanced." Maybe it will be to some planet where they'll apply those chemical irritants to Lott's lower limbs to teach him how to walk so as to better entertain the aliens. ObClassiccmp: ------------- Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their houses in the winter in place of a furnace? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 9 00:51:19 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14656.34263.394797.149187@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 9, R. D. Davis wrote: > ObClassiccmp: > ------------- > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? I haven't run a heater in winter for quite some time. I have a small electric/ceramic heater in the bedroom because it's difficult to move the heat that far away from the machine room. But I only need that on the coldest of days. None of those are really my "classic" machines but I figured it'd fit. :) -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 9 02:08:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their >houses in the winter in place of a furnace? Well, the room in the house with all the computers (well, except the ones living in the garage) has the heating blocked off, and often has the window open in the middle of the Winter. It also happens to be the room that has the Airconditioner which gets used during the spring, summer and fall. The rest of the house is usually pretty chilly by comparison. Zane OTOH, most of that heat comes from 1 21" monitor, and the real problem is the design of this house. Even without the computer equipment on this room is considerably hotter than the rest of the house. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 02:06:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) It's OK, R.D. You can take your foot out of your mouth now. > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. Ok, stop there. No? Sigh... > On the other hand, the Internet is a great wasy for some people to > wasts vast sums of time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the > government to spy on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been > set up. Is the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well > designed feature disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, > isn't it likely that some other, perhaps more secure, form of > communication may have originated without government intervention and > become just as popular? Remember what I was saying about your foot? > More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may > become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the > survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt > that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a > relatively small number of carefully selected people and other > creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the > majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point > in that? The problem is not the sheer number of people on this planet, but the percentage of those that are complete and utter morons. > Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and > abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their > abilities have been put to better use for society? Yeah! We could use a LOT more creative ways to kill and maim people. Nukes just didn't go far enough, eh? > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > something, I'd very much like to know about it. Dude, one word: TANG! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 02:07:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather drool spit) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > ObClassiccmp: > ------------- > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? TANG! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 9 03:23:13 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights" (Jun 9, 0:08) References: Message-ID: <10006090923.ZM1528@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 9, 0:08, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On June 9, R. D. Davis wrote: > >Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > >houses in the winter in place of a furnace? > > Well, the room in the house with all the computers (well, except the ones > living in the garage) has the heating blocked off, Same with my office/computer room; there are two machines and an old (and therefore relatively power-hungry) hub that are on 24/7. It's a small room and has the heating off and the two adjacent rooms have the heating turned way down. There's usually a machine in the garage on 24/7 in the winter; if ever it's not on, there's a heater and/or dehumidifier there to protect the tools and 'puters. > OTOH, most of that heat comes from 1 21" monitor, and the real problem is > the design of this house. Even without the computer equipment on this room > is considerably hotter than the rest of the house. Funny how that happens, isn't it? Mine's the same: upper floor, centre room, just at the top of the stairs, seems to collect all the heat from downstairs -- and has a 20" Sony GDM1961/VRT-19HA. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 9 04:05:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) In-Reply-To: <002001bfd193$79422940$7364c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3940CF6C.24629.E4947AC@localhost> > >I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a > >local > >box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with > >Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no > >flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the > Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and > have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. > What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, > linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. Exactly what Julian Stacey did at VCFe for his NS32032 system. AFAIR he's always using old DOS laptops as terminals for his unix boxes. Gruss H. BTW: Herbert Kramer has put up some Lomos of VCFe 1.0 http://home.germany.net/101-246057/vcfe/vcfe.html -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 07:29:31 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. > > Ok, stop there. No? Sigh... Yeah, the quality of the tool is over rated. > The problem is not the sheer number of people on this planet, but the percentage of those that are complete and utter morons. Dude, it's both. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 9 08:08:44 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802A07@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@smart.net] > Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 1:35 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we > going to find > > a place to ship Trent Lott? I for one, was glad when Congressman John Glenn went back into space. Although, I was a bit disappointed when he returned. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/0b64e7c9/attachment.html From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 9 08:13:24 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802A08@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their > systems to heat their > > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? > I live in South Florida... Even a PC will keep my house warm. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/4cb24fef/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 08:09:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. Yes I have some machines that may qualify. Most may qualify as they are no longer used for revenue (often). However, at their time they were serious machines built to do serious work for the most part. So the closest thing I have to a toy is my trs80 (mod1). The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. PCs I have a hard time takething them seriously despite their enormous processing power. They arent built for the most part like a serviceable and relaible tool. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 08:30:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD3@TEGNTSERVER> > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > Dude, one word: TANG! I dittoed a Davis rant the other day, today I gotta nix one. Sellam, let me second your motion with- Teflon! -doug q From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Fri Jun 9 08:41:12 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com>; from ernestls@home.com on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700 References: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <20000609084112.A948@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - What is the address of your ftp site? john On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700, Ernest wrote: > > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > > Wordstar Ver. 3 > Spellstar > Correctstar > Mailmerge > The Speller > Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) > Polyplot > Statistix Ver. 2.0 > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) > 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) > 1988 Subscriber's disk > Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) > Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) > Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 > Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) > Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) > 100/150 System Demo > 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) > 150 Computer Tutor > 150 MS Basic > 150 Application Master > 150 MS Pascal > 150 System Work disk > 150 Application Work disk > 100 series MS Fortran > > These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my > FTP site soon. > > Ernest > > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 08:41:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD4@TEGNTSERVER> > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. I don't personally equate NASA with the space program. Yes, NASA runs the only real space program we have. But while R. D. Davis seems to decry them both, and many others are jumping in to defend both, let me offer an alternative view. For the most part, I have always supported manned space flight. And once upon a time working at NASA was my dream. But over the years, and particularly in the way that they acquired and then deliberately destroyed the Delta Clipper project and prototype (yes I have read the NASA reports in full and I still conclude the engineer who failed to check the landing strut because the instructions he got did not specify to do so most likely did so deliberately and on directions from higher-ups), I have come to see NASA as a bloated bureaucracy that would be best put to sleep. But I would still replace NASA with something that would carry on manned spaceflight. As for individuals, so also for society, that [a] mans reach should exceed his grasp. respectfully submitted, doug quebbeman From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 9 08:48:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000609083417.0193fe30@pc> At 01:16 AM 6/9/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space >age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the >space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets >everywhere. :-) :-) :-) I knew Tang would be mentioned early in this thread. I may have been born in 1963, but by what stretch is Tang considered an invention, never mind a significant one? I'd find it hard to believe that Kool Aid is more recent than Tang, never mind no doubt dozens of other flavored powders. So Tang had the sugar built-in? They couldn't have been the first to try that. Tang has some sort of extra vitamins in it? That's a big invention? (As an aside, these "freeze-dried ice cream" globs they sell at NASA are horrid. Grandma and Grandpa brought some back for the kids, and even they wouldn't touch them. Tang? Tang? How come no one is talking about the awful freeze-dried ice cream?) Velcro was invented by a fellow in Japan, as I recall - "velvet closure" and burdock seeds were the name and the inspiration. As for integrated circuits, etc. no doubt space funding might've paid for the R&D and motivation for companies to improve and shrink their products, but what - they didn't think there would be a giant worldwide market for smaller and cheaper radios, lower battery consumption, better transistors, etc? They wouldn't have done it on their own, eventually, or perhaps even at the same speed, as quickly as they could figure it out? - John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Jun 9 09:01:55 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <20000609140155.14161.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > > > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > > > Dude, one word: TANG! > > I dittoed a Davis rant the other day, today I gotta nix one. > > Sellam, let me second your motion with- Teflon! I wasn't going to chime in, but now that we are benignly listing 1960s technology brought to the fore by the space race, WD-40. The contractor who was producing it for NASA discovered its potential when employees were taking the product for use at home. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Jun 9 10:14:00 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT: Re: In defense of NASA In-Reply-To: <200006090535.AAA01605@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: R. D. et al, (* Disclaimer: I'm full time on a NASA project, the IMAGE mission, though my direct employer is Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, Texas, who does a lot of commercial space work as well as NASA. My views are mine alone, however, and do not represent company policy nor that of NASA. *) ... so you know which side my bread's buttered on, and by the way if you are a taxpayer, I thank you very much for your support and hope you feel that you get your money's worth out of IMAGE (http://pluto.space.swri.edu/IMAGE/) (you can see data on some of the links referenced there). I've worked hard to make it so. > Has the space program had any positive influence on >spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Yes. Remember the photo of the Earth, taken by the returning Apollo mission? Or Earthrise over the moon? That's a perspective that could never have been achieved without manned spaceflight. (I say manned, because no machine would have been programmed to look in the right direction at the right time, and notice the incredible aesthetic impact of that image, and capture it.) Its value is of course subjective - but there's a generation grown now that *knows*, because they've seen it, that Earth is just a big blue marble and not the entire universe. For better or worse, it's a finite planet. Is the ozone hole a big deal? Maybe, maybe not; but we would never have known about it - because we would never have noticed it - without the *global* data that could only be provided by satellite observations. What about global warming? We might have picked that up in 10 or 15 years from temperature measurements at land stations, or maybe not. In any case, it would have taken more years for global climate modelers to convince everyone else that the land data they had, plus limited sea-surface measurements from ships, really did amount to a significant change. Global sea-surface temperature measurements, collected by satellites, provided that insight to us about a quarter of a century earlier than we would otherwise have had it. Same notation for El Nino. Whether we take advantage of the data we have, and do smart things with it, is an open question, but we would not even have the options, in those cases, without spaceflight. There are similar arguments for land-use patterns, deforestation, pollution (airborne and water-borne) plumes, etc etc etc. Not that the data *could* not be collected without spacecraft - but that it would have been a lot harder and more expensive and in most cases *would* not have been done. We know our terrestrial problems better because of space activities. Communications satellites carry WWF, so maybe I shouldn't bring those up, .... oh heck yes I should. Living in North America, I can watch NHK news live broadcasts from Japan (for example). Is that a cultural benefit? You bet. I can see, and hear (and heck, maybe one day even understand) what's being thought and done about problems I don't even have (earthquakes? volcanoes? not in Texas), half a big blue marble away. Cultures I would never know existed are as close as a twist of a knob. Sure, some of that could be done with undersea lines - but not as soon and not as cheaply as with a satellite link. As for the Columbus argument ... I'm always nervous about that one. For me as a born Texan, descended of Germand and English settlers, heck yeah it was great that Isabella hocked her jewelry to pay for that expedition. As a Spaniard, I'd probably be a bit less enthusiastic; I mean looking at Spain now, it didn't do them much good in the long term. As a native American, I'd be pretty bummed about it - why didn't the silly Europeans stay over there and pave Europe? Depends on your perspective. But what I do think Spain bought for Columbus' trip, and was cheap at the price, and what I think NASA has bought for us and was *incredibly* cheap at the price, is potential. We know we *can* build solar power satellites and beam microwave energy to Earth to supply electricity for our classic computers :-) without contributing (as much) to global warming. We know we can put long-term facilities in low Earth orbit for medical reasons or biomedical research or crystallography or whatever. We know we can put people on the Moon and bring them home intact. We know we can go to Mars and colonize it, if we choose to. Those options are expensive, and some of them may not be worth it - it's a choice we have to make. But the fact that we *have* the choice is worth a lot to us as a nation, or as a species. - Mark From rivie at teraglobal.com Fri Jun 9 10:49:05 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Q-bus (was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights) In-Reply-To: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yeah, well, don't get me started about Qbus timeouts. I designed the Firefox Qbus adapter. It was an evil hideous hack, primarily because of Qbus timeouts. There were actually two Qbus adapters sold by DEC: their internally designed "tape adapter" (the FTAM) and my Qbus adapter (the FQAM). The FTAM supported only the TQK70 tape controller, and that was only because the TQK70 waits about 20 microseconds before timing out a transaction. I have an RQDX3 that was modified to work with the FTAM, but DEC didn't want to deliver that as a product and they certainly didn't want to modify _everything_ to work with the FTAM. The difficulty with the Firefox is twofold: it uses write-back caches and the cache has no invalid state. Since it uses write-back caches, a cache which contains a copy of data newer than that stored in memory intervenes in a transaction to supply the data. This is great, except it's really slow; to get the data out of a cache, the module supplying the data has to do a DMA request on its internal bus to get the data. This wouldn't necessarily be a problem except for the bit about not having an invalid state: once data gets into a cache, it's extraordinarily difficult to get it back out again. The Firefox is built around CVAX CPUs, so the internal bus used on all of the modules is the CVAX pin-bus. When it became time to design the Qbus adapter, the designer thought "Aha! All I have to do is slap a CQBIC (CVAX to Qbus adapter IC) down on the board next to the FBIC (Firefox bus interface chip) and wire them together!" Nope. A really annoying thing about the CQBIC is that it does not have an actual real scatter-gather map; it just has essentially a translation lookaside buffer. This means that it's possible the FTAM has to do the following in response to a QBus DMA read: - Evict whatever's in the FBIC's internal cache. - Fetch the scatter/gather map entry, which is probably in somebody's cache because it was just loaded with a mapping. - Fetch the word that needs to be supplied for the Qbus read, which is probably in somebody's cache because a program just wrote it into the DMA buffer. This can take an extraordinarily long amount of time on a write-back cache bus without an invalid state. Lord help you if you have to wait for someone else's transaction to another cache to finish before you can start yours. Did I forget to mention that the Firefox bus has a fair arbitration scheme to prevent bus hogging? That makes it even longer. I've seen it take 12 microseconds for the FBIC to cough up data! By the time I got involved, they had already tried the obvious hack of modding the FBIC to allow the QBus to have absolute priority in the bus arbitration. That was nice because it helped me out. To tame the Firefox bus, the FQAM had two key items: a complete on-board scatter/gather map and a bogus transaction generator to keep everyone else off the bus while QBus DMA was going on. The bogus transaction generator was started whenever a QBus device requested the bus. It kept the bus busy with short transactions so the FQAM could guarantee that it wouldn't have to wait for someone else's outrageously long transaction to complete before it could start its own transaction. It did, however, mean that nothing else happened in the system while the QBus was granted to a DMA device even if the DMA device wasn't doing anything with the bus. In addition to shutting down the entire bus during DMA, the FQAM itself was slow; I was only ever able to get about 250KB/s through the thing. The heart of the FQAM was a microcoded state machine built from registered PROMs. To compile the microcode, I wrote a bunch of macros for MACRO32 that turned it into my own personal microcode language. It took my poor little MicroVAX 2000 half an hour to assemble my microcode, which wound up being about 512 words. Try to explain the power of a true macro assembler to a Unix person and they just look at you funny. Anyway, AFAIK I'm the only person outside of DEC that ever designed to the Firefox bus and I did two of them: the FQAM and MasPar's front-end interface (MasPar got a really good deal from DEC on Firefoxes, but it didn't take them long to move to using the DECstation 5000 as the front end). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 10:55:20 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. Sounds like a computer to me. > Yes I have some machines that may qualify. Most may qualify as they > are no longer used for revenue (often). However, at their time they were > serious machines built to do serious work for the most part. So the > closest thing I have to a toy is my trs80 (mod1). Serious humbug. They were built as expensive toys to play with. Now then, pay careful attention: that doesn't mean that those treating them as toys are careless with their work, they're just having fun and most likely doing much better quality work as a result of their enjoyment of their work. When work ceases to be fun, that's when the bad mistakes, etc. occur due to boredom and an "I don't give a damn, I just want a paycheck for showing up here each day." attitude sets in, when the fun becomes finding creative ways of avoiding actually doing much of any work, annoying certain annoying cow-prkers, etc., as there must be some sort of motivation for at least showing up at work, where fun is the motivation. > The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 > or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. Why should he not think of that machine tool as a toy, esp. if he enjoys his work and is good at it? Heck, he probably even has a pet name for the machine. No chauvenism intended, just a psychological curiosity: Do I sense that men and women sometimes tend to think of work in the computer field differently, with many women having a dreadfully serious outlook on their work and men treating it more as something that's supposed to be fun and games? Maybe this has something to do with many men growing as boys playing with erector sets, heathkits, building forts, and having soldering irons, hammers, screwdrivers, etc. in their hands while they were still learning to read. Then, after growing up, we still consider such things, whether a little PC, an IBM mainframe, or even a multinational corporation, to be toys to play with. > PCs I have a hard time takething them seriously despite their enormous > processing power. They arent built for the most part like a serviceable > and relaible tool. Well said. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 10:57:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) More properly, it was not ARPAnet, but the NSFnet. While the ARPAnet laid all of the groundwork, it did not survive to become the "Internet" today. The NSFnet did survive, especially the switch to commercialization in the early-mid 1990s. > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, > the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of > time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy > on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Why pick on the AOLers (and the rest of the masses that have jumped on the net since 1992)? If anything, they (or rather the commercialization) has been a big benefit. If the NSFnet stayed a non-profit network, unlike today, we would see the following: * Today's network would be a ploddingly slow set of saturated T1s and T3s. T5s would have been out of the question, as would SONET. The NSFnet just couldn't afford an upgrade like those. Competeing backbones just would not be what they are today. * Dialup access would be unavailable to nearly all people, either because POPs were too far away or the extreme price. $19.95/month unlimited access would be a fantasy. * Modem technology would probably be stuck at 33.6 kbps, as there would not be any huge incentive for the race to 56K. The same holds true for router technology. These three points are all pretty important - in fact if just one of the three were true, the net would be a great deal less of a tool. So what's wrong with AOLers and AOL? Not much. Sure some a clueless, but then some of the smartest people in the world use it. AOL doesn't choke the network, as they mostly use their own stuff. Many very interesting web pages full of useful content have now sprung up because John Q. Public can sign up with AOL with any knowledge of supergeeky Unix and modem stuff. There is lots of garbage as well, but the key to not letting it bother you is simply not to view it. > Is > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > disguised as a flaw? No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix security is just not that good. > Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely > that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have > originated without government intervention and become just as popular? In the 1970s, there were other networks that ran around the U.S and Europe, but these were all very closed systems. Some were private ventures, most were academic. They were mostly, however, a mess. Some still exist, but completely out of the public eye. If the NSFnet never existed, most people would not even know what the word "network" means. > The automobile hasn't really improved > much since the 1970s. Whatever. > Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and > it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly > been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged > sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that > can also slice the one who created it. A large portion - probably a majority - of the technologies that we use in our computers was in some major way influenced by military developement. Even though military technology tends to be roughly ten years ahead of the commercial technology at any given time, the effects are felt in time (usually about ten years). Yes, it may seem unethical that Uncle Sam is dumping tons of money into equipment that is basically used to kill people, but that same technology will benefit people in a very large, peaceful way in time. WIlliam Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 11:43:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> > > Is > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > disguised as a flaw? > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > security is just not that good. This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security has not improved. First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was that it would provide information sharing between a small number of trusted and trusting sites. However, from my own personal experience, I have never succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the second time. regards, -doug quebbeman From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 9 11:44:32 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Decwriter III's in Kansas City Message-ID: I have two Decwriter III's that were taken out of service in January. They were working when turned off. They are not light weight. I will send them to anyone who wants them for $10 each plus shipping. The $10 is to find a box/pallet and haul them to the shipping office. Anybody can have them for free if they want to pick them up. The other option is I donate them to the computer surplus. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mark_k at iname.com Fri Jun 9 13:14:50 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs Message-ID: Hi, Thanks for the several helpful replies on this topic. On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 Clint Wolff wrote: > I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will > result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. > Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. > Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are > shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. > The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly > short time after opening (couple days IIRC). Ah, I have read about that. IC manufacturers often specify a procedure to use when chips which may have absorbed water are to be used. This involves baking at low temperature for a while. Assuming that (for the purposes of removing absorbed water) one plastic IC package is the same as the next, at which temperature and for how long should this baking be done? The lowest setting on my oven is 70 degrees C. If that is low enough -- I guess it should be as most ICs are specified for operation to 75 C or so -- I may try putting the board in there for 12 or 24 hours, before turning the temperature up to melt the solder. -- Mark From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 11:20:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000609083417.0193fe30@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > As for integrated circuits, etc. no doubt space funding might've > paid for the R&D and motivation for companies to improve and > shrink their products, but what - they didn't think there would > be a giant worldwide market for smaller and cheaper radios, lower > battery consumption, better transistors, etc? They wouldn't have > done it on their own, eventually, or perhaps even at the same speed, > as quickly as they could figure it out? Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted from this was computers. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 12:29:15 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook><14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com><001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.26055.814976.217001@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001901bfd238$3cdd4980$0400c0a8@winbook> It wasn't my intention to suggest that it's practically a reality to replace a CRAY with a bunch of PC's, but rather to point out that PC's are what people think of today as a computer. Twenty years ago they'd have thought of a behemoth, but the popular vision of a computer now looks more like your desktop system. What's more, taking the SETI-at-home notion as an example, it is possible to do SOME of those tasks on a bunch of PC's with their Intel processors. Of course, the CRAY may do it closer to real-time, but it seldom can do that either. How far off real-time it is probably doesn't matter as much as one might think once we're decoupled from real time continuous processing. Doing it in realtime (whatever "doing-it" means) often requires computers executing exaflops, which we don't seem to have, ...yet..., though it is achievable by segmenting the data and processing it separately on thousands of machines. There's lots of latency, but with enough machines participating in the process, "it" can, theoretically be accomplished on a continuous basis. I was being facetious in the original comment, but it is, in fact, true that the popular vision of "computer" has changed over the past two decades. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > For a lot of things, maybe...but lots of computational tasks simply > aren't well suited to running on a thousand tiny buzzing Intel processors. > > -Dave McGuire > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at > > 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dave McGuire > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > > > > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > > > computing. > > > > > > -Dave McGuire > > > > > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements > > and > > > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: R. D. Davis > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd > > like to > > > > do > > > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the > > front > > > > panel > > > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest > > chance > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what > > you > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then > > the > > > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > R. D. Davis > > > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > > > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 12:41:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon observed in conjunction with an accident. I certainly hope you're joking! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > from this was computers. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 9 13:51:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals In-Reply-To: <20000608233422.605.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- allisonp wrote: >> Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and >> have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. > >At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- >directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer >models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 >can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard I have a few of these PE3 10bt adapters, headed for eBay, but I will let anybody on the list buy one directly for $10 and shipping ($4 in US). Your choice of ONE power source, AC adapter, or serial cheater cord. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 9 13:57:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD4@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >But I would still replace NASA with something that would carry >on manned spaceflight. As for individuals, so also for society, >that [a] mans reach should exceed his grasp. NASA should get out of the commercial side of the space business, PERIOD. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 13:19:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. > > Sounds like a computer to me. ;) could be. > Serious humbug. They were built as expensive toys to play with. Now > then, pay careful attention: that doesn't mean that those treating Well, I know people that play hard and work hard and both are the same thing. Me for one. Electronics is hobby, serious study and what I do to pay the bills. I enjoy it. > enjoyment of their work. When work ceases to be fun, that's when the > bad mistakes, etc. occur due to boredom and an "I don't give a damn, I ;) Ah ha! True. > > The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 > > or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. > > Why should he not think of that machine tool as a toy, esp. if he > enjoys his work and is good at it? Heck, he probably even has a pet > name for the machine. it is that persons perogative. generally toys are associated with recreation though. Still, an NC mill is a fine toy. > Do I sense that men and women sometimes tend to think of work in the > computer field differently, with many women having a dreadfully Not the women I know. Then again I hang in different circles where a job is more than a means to an end. > with many men growing as boys playing with erector sets, heathkits, > building forts, and having soldering irons, hammers, screwdrivers, > etc. in their hands while they were still learning to read. Then, > after growing up, we still consider such things, whether a little PC, > an IBM mainframe, or even a multinational corporation, to be toys to > play with. With two brothers into all that I got to play and do as a result. However to your last line... I build with wood too as that was my fathers influence. When my toys can impact on others (running a multinational) it's time to play seriously and hard. To borrow a line success is _fun_, for lack of a better word. I find it disappointing there are not more women in high Tech fields. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 13:27:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > security is just not that good. > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > has not improved. But it has. The content however has become dangerous to the end users. With all the viruses the internet as a backbone has not burped, whole groups of end nodes and local networks have suffered however due to poor security on their part. In the end don't blame the highway for the dead cow on the median. > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > second time. A huge amount of stuff happend between now and then. if it didn't we'd still depend on UUCP batches running at 3am over modems to route mail. I say that as one that used internet back when it took overnight to get mail from MA to CA. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jun 9 16:51:26 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Fixin' der Tandy 2 floppydrivenspiegelthingengruppebochs In-Reply-To: <200006090315.UAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000609175126.00c26e00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: >Good news und bat news. > >I got a nice Tandy 200 package today, unit, power supplies, manuals and even >some Club 100 disks in the original hard case. Very nice and the machine, >after a little of fiddling and a cold start, is running well. That's the good >news. Sehr Gute News. ;-) >The bad news, alas, is the 3.5" RS-232 floppy that came with it. (Yes, >RS-232 floppy drive; hopefully someone has seen one of these.) It will >not power up on either the power supply (original power supply, btw, which >works with the M200 just fine), or new batteries. All it does is flash its >low battery light briefly, spin for about a second, and shut off. I took >a look at the board but couldn't see anything physically shot. How do you know it's turning off? The blinkenlight is to let you know of 1) low battery, and 2) drive activity. It's normal for the blinkenlight to turn off after a successful powerup, so it sounds like it's working correctly. Impotent question #1: Did you receive the special hookemupper cable that came with the drive? This is *super* important, as a standard RS232 will not work - the cable has internal electronics (read: transistors & stuff) to change the voltage levels to/from the drive. Do not wire up a straight cable between any computer & the drive - you will fry the electronics in the drive! Impotent question #2: Is it a Portable disk drive (PDD), or a Portable disk drive 2 (PDD2)? Big difference, in storage space (100K vs. 200K) and startup procedures. Impotent question #3: Did you get a boot disk with the drive? If so, IIRC this is how you get the poor excuse for a DOS into the laptop with a PDD2 (all I've ever owned.): Hook up the cable between computer & floppy drive. Insert the boot floppy into the drive, but do not turn it on yet. Turn on the computer. Go into basic and issue this command: RUN "COM:98N1DNN" ^ If the above command doesn't work, change that D to an E and try again. Turn on the floppy drive. That should start the software download from the boot floppy to the computer. If you don't have a PDD2, read the instructions if you got them, if not, go to http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html. There's a *ton* of info for the Model 100/102/200 series there, and the owner of Club 100, Rick Hanson, has got to be one of the nicest people on the planet. There is also a listserver dedicated to the Model 100/102/200 machines, and to subscribe, send a blank email to: m100-subscribe@list.30below.com and you will receive a confirmation message. Reply to that confirmation message, and you're subscribed! There's actually been a fair amount of activity on there lately, and with over 150 subscribers to the list, there's one heckuva lotsa brains there to pick! (I administer the list, that's why it's a ) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 9 17:09:44 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > > > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could > > look like a tremendous waste of money and time. > > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) > > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, > the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of > time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy > on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Is > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely Possibly, but the same criticism can be made of radio, telephone, fax, and most other modes of electronic communication. It is all monitored. > that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have > originated without government intervention and become just as popular? > > > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. > > Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space > age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the > space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets > everywhere. :-) :-) :-) > > > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > > We have everything we need, right here." > > Hmmm... interesting to think about. > > > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > > You may be surprised that I agree with you: there are other reasons > besides that. For example, the space program also exists so that > large corporations can make billions of dollars in profits and use > some of those profits to grant favors to the politicians who helped > them make the profits extorted from taxpayers. > > More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may > become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the > survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt > that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a > relatively small number of carefully selected people and other > creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the May we presume boarding 'two by two'? > majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point > in that? > > However, at the rate things are going, we'll probably cause our own > extinction because of overpopulation and the resulting damage to the > environment, long before we can find another planet to destroy. > > > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > > Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and > abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their > abilities have been put to better use for society? > > > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. > > Yes, but I wonder how much of this is actually necessary, and if it > really does do much to improve the quality of people's lives. After > all, the technology used in building comfortable houses to live in has > been stable for many years. The automobile hasn't really improved > much since the 1970s. The field of medicine would probably have done > just as well, and perhaps better, if the money was spent on it, and, > who knows, those horrid HMOs may never have even come to exist. Have > the foods we eat improved as a result of the space program? Have > people become kinder and more civil to one another as a result of the > space program? Has the space program had any positive influence on > spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Blame it on the Soviets and the rich kid (with the rich father) from Boston ;-P - don > Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and > it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly > been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged > sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that > can also slice the one who created it. Perhaps it's been useful for > the strategic defense initiative, but, that's been delayed and our > most trustworthy and esteemed (<-sarcasm intended) president has > crawled on his hands and knees to Russia asking for their permission > for us to implement it! Perhaps he's so used to crawling on his hands > and knees submitting to Hillary that he just can't help this, but > that's no excuse, is it? > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 9 17:45:30 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Ahoi Dick, > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > from this was computers. > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > observed in conjunction with an accident. Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep around. > I certainly hope you're joking! He is :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:07:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <004701bfd199$4f4e5b80$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 8, 0 04:31:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/3767c19b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:09:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 8, 0 06:45:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/8ae51266/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:15:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 8, 0 04:21:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/24df7746/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:23:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 8, 0 11:33:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1303 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/a374be8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:29:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Jun 9, 0 09:09:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/ad9efd3e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:34:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609140155.14161.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 9, 0 07:01:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/8991324d/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 18:12:06 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> References: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609160612.0243a4d0@208.226.86.10> At 12:45 AM 6/10/00 +0200, Hans wrote: >Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. >None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, >it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. If you want to be blunt, the absolute best "engine" for developing new technologies is a good old fashioned war. One school of thought would argue that the "space race" was simply the cover story for developing better missile technology and other armaments. However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a space program (regardless of the motivations for pursuing space). By and large "mainstream" entities (ie business, banking, etc) do not "develop" technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of computers, fax machines (which were in vented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't change their ways. --Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 18:10:56 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > even a good penetrating oil. It was actually originally a repeller, mostly made of Stoddard solvent. The original idea was to use WD-40 to clean out surfaces of machining oils, water, general crud, etc. so a lubricant can be introduced to fresh metal. In fact, one of the things it is good for is getting rid of lubrication! Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" both jobs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From red at bears.org Fri Jun 9 18:18:53 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" > both jobs. It's slippery, right? -gurgle-. IME the only thing WD40 is useful for, is, as you've said, flushing gunk out of a mechanical device, which it does without hesitation or prejudice. ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 9 18:19:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I personnally think you should need a license (granted based on a test on > cluefulness) to buy WD-40 :-)... > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > even a good penetrating oil. Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 17:32:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > > from this was computers. > > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > > observed in conjunction with an accident. > > Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. > None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, > it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. > Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge > about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have > been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, > we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep > around. > > > I certainly hope you're joking! > > He is :) No, I'm not. As usual, I have no idea what Dick was blathering about. But, the point is that WWII and the Space Race brought about unprecedented advancements in many fields of technology, not the least of which was computing technology. This is moronically obvious and I am not making any sort of astute observation here. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 18:50:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: WD-40 uses In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609164948.00bf4d90@208.226.86.10> At 11:19 PM 6/9/00 +0000, Eric wrote: >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). Its an excellent gun preservative. Used on the metal parts it repels moisture and oils preventing oxidation of the metals. --Chuck From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 9 19:12:34 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: WD-40 (was: Re: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > > even a good penetrating oil. > > It was actually originally a repeller, mostly made of Stoddard solvent. > The original idea was to use WD-40 to clean out surfaces of machining > oils, water, general crud, etc. so a lubricant can be introduced to fresh > metal. In fact, one of the things it is good for is getting rid of > lubrication! > > Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" > both jobs. And don't forget the urban legends crowd, who insist that WD-40 can treat arthritis (!) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 20:12:18 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> Great brag today. Two ROM 03 Apple IIgses with 1MB RAM, keyboards, two sets of two each of 5.25" and 3.5" UniDisks and a nice composite monitor. But that's not the interesting part. The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But I shan't complain too much :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 20:13:52 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Tandy 2 drive oops Message-ID: <200006100113.SAA07402@oa.ptloma.edu> Roger, I think you sent me an answer about the Tandy 2 floppy drive, but in my haste I deleted it by accident. Could you resend it? I'm terribly sorry about that. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 20:15:01 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Message-ID: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Without getting into detail, which would require I refresh my memory about a number of these examples, I'd point out that EPOXY is one that came about by accident, although there are many others. I'd be surprised to find that someone set out to build a semiconductor, knowing that the physical chemistry of the substances involved, and that people, though they knew in advance that such things could be done, simply hadn't bothered for one reason or another. Likewise, I recently saw a PBS program that went into some detail about the invention of RADAR. That certainly wasn't planned out in advance. Nobel (according to another PBS program) didn't set about to invent Nitrogycerin, nor, knowing about nitrogycerine, did he set out to invent nitrocellulose, And, of course, there's the Post-It. That certainly was an accident, resulting from a spill, according to the inventor, who was interviewed on an NPR program. I'd be really surprised to learn that someone sat down one day saying, "I'm going to invent CMOS devices now!" I'd be really pleased, in fact, to know even one significant invention that was produced by a typical over-organized and micro-managed NASA engineering team of the sort I remember from back in the Apollo days. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Ahoi Dick, > > > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > > from this was computers. > > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > > observed in conjunction with an accident. > > Seriously, I doubt that any useful development was done by accident. > None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, > it's plain old hard work to do it - and this would have happened anyway. It's true that it requires great deal of effort to turn any invention into something useful. By definition, however, it's really difficult to find even one case wherein someone set about to invent new technology knowing that he could do it. The vast sums of money have to be justfied by the promise of some well defined result. Invention is, by definition, not well defined in advance of its occurrence. > Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge > about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have > been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, > we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep > around. > Fuel cell technology, not of tremendous interest in many places outside the space-flight realm, certainly was an outgrowth of the space effort that would still be undeveloped but for the need for it presented by space exploration and satellite communication. However, if there had been no space exploration effort afoot, low-power semiconductor technology would probably not yet have evolved. My own experience in the electronics engineering field certainly has shown me more examples of a technology developed elsewhere and a potential entrepeneur looking at it with the question, "How can I captialize on this to make some money?" It's not until someone finds an answer to this question that most of us even learn of a new technology. Exceptions abound, of course, over the course of the space exploration effort, where the government, anxious to justify its vast expenditures, has publicized newly developed technology intended for application in the military or in space, but for which undeveloped potential in the commercial world exists. The military is somewhat more judicious about what it publicizes, but the same principles apply. > > > I certainly hope you're joking! > > He is :) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From ernestls at home.com Fri Jun 9 20:53:20 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <20000609084112.A948@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <000001bfd27e$a8658140$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> It isn't actually officially open yet but I'm hoping to have it all ready by next weekend. I'm trying to tie it into a web page that I'm making. I'll post it here as soon as it's open, so look for a notification by next weekend. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Ott Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 6:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New HP150 software finds. Hello - What is the address of your ftp site? john On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700, Ernest wrote: > > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > > Wordstar Ver. 3 > Spellstar > Correctstar > Mailmerge > The Speller > Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) > Polyplot > Statistix Ver. 2.0 > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) > 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) > 1988 Subscriber's disk > Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) > Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) > Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 > Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) > Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) > 100/150 System Demo > 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) > 150 Computer Tutor > 150 MS Basic > 150 Application Master > 150 MS Pascal > 150 System Work disk > 150 Application Work disk > 100 series MS Fortran > > These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my > FTP site soon. > > Ernest > > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 9 21:06:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 09, 2000 06:12:18 PM Message-ID: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Great brag today. Two ROM 03 Apple IIgses with 1MB RAM, keyboards, two > sets of two each of 5.25" and 3.5" UniDisks and a nice composite monitor. But > that's not the interesting part. > > The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System > 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file > server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon > Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) > > How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building > the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but > obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT > come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network > boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. I *think* it's part of the basic Apple //GS 'System 6' software. Geez, been so long since I've messed with mine that I can't even remember what the OS is called for sure. Anyway last I heard you could still get the disk images for the last OS release of an Apple FTP server, the trick is finding out where. > By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB > mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But > I shan't complain too much :-) Ouch, you should have shopped around! Of course I'm the fool who has been threatening to buy a spare brand new Apple Extended Keyboard II, and a couple spare ADB II Mice. They work great on my G4 with a USB-to-ADB converter, and since ADB is gone, it might be a good idea to pick up a couple new spares while I still can. Zane From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 21:28:29 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <002901bfd283$911b56e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's probably exactly the way you suggest, Tony, but I'd say you ay be overlooking the most obvious way to do this sort of thing, i.e. use volatile programmable logic. I doubt any patent will be violated if you use an old schematic as the model for an implementation that couldn't have existed in the timeframe within which a patent might have been valid. A patent applies to the implementation of the items that are claimed as original or innovative. It will be your implementation that is innovative if you do it this way. Another point worth considering is the relative risk of being sued. If you build a single copy of your implementation, even if it is on a standard FPGA board sold for many purposes, it is a unique effort, yielding a unique product, no longer really the same board built by the manufacturer, yet it will be able to execute, and quite precisely if your implementation is good, the instructions the original one did. However, if there were any money in this implementation, someone would be building it and you'd have THEM to worry about, not the original maker. If one's dreaming of making a bundle supplying an old war-horse that died years back, even at a 50-fold preformance increase, it's not likely to be worth the filing fees. If you don't like how it works, you can fiddle with it to your heart's delight, without any resoldering or cut and paste. Now, there is, actually a risk you might not be able to preserve pinouts, so what I'd recommend is to build a board with your FPGA (one is normally better than two or more, since many pins of I/O are lost if you try to use small devices where a larger one is indicated) surrounded with dual row pin-fields over which you can interconnect the signal paths with longer jumpers if need be in subsequent revisions or other architectures. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > I haven't had -that- particular fantasy, but another one... > > > > ... creating copies of certain "classic" machines. If you were able to buy, > > say, an original Nova in a box that for all the detail you wanted was the > > same as the original, and inside had the same chips on the same size PC board, > > would that be cool? Sure, you're have to use materials you could get today > > to do it, but accurately done, it might be interesting. > > Yes, I've thought about this too.... > > Technically, it's not that hard, if you allow 'minor' changes in the > chips -- using 74HCT chips in place of plain 74xx (and making other > necessary changes), for example. Or using larger, more modern SRAM chips > to replace ones that are hard to find and expensive now. > > Legally there are at least 2 problems. Firstly, the design is probably > still covered by some form of copyright (IANAL). Most schematics of these > old computers have notices on them preventing them from being used to > make copies of the machine. My guess is that some manufacturers might > well give the permision, though. > > The second problem is that these old machines may well not meet modern > standard for RFI emissions, etc. Which (at least in the UK) matters even > if you're only making a 1-off :-( > > > > > > I'm -not- saying building up clones of certain rare old computers and trying > > to pass them off as originals, but rather, trying to make clones that are > > undistinguishable from the original. > > I would want to make some change that made it impossible to pass it off > as the original. Perhaps putting the text 'Copy created by ' > in an inside layer of the PCB, so it could be seen if the board were held > up to the light, but couldn't be removed without destroying the board. I > have no interest in making fakes, I have every interest in playing with > machines that I otherwise wouldn't be able to see. > > -tony > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 21:48:56 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <003301bfd286$6d211b00$0400c0a8@winbook> You'll have to sell me on this one, Tony. blinking the lights in sync with a simulator via EPP is dirt-simple and very fast. I2C requires either hardware or time-consuming software to generate, and generating and debugging the software will consume a lot of time too. Further, it requires lots of specialized ( I haven't got any of those parts here . . .) hardware at the receiving end, and I have lots of parts . . . The EPP is infinitely extensible, i.e. it's possible, though unrealistic, to build a system with 64K 64K-bit ports all controlled by a single PC from its parallel port. The thing thats beautiful about that is that it's possible to build the system as wide, or deep, as you like without using any different hardware at the PC end. More below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > There are plug-in boards that provide an extra SPP/EPP/ECP port, which is > > safer than simply using the motherboard-resident one. That would be less > > trouble if you were to break it than would be the one on the motherboard. > > > > The EPP port is more desirable, IMHO, simply because it isolates your > > "hobby-project" from the inards of the computer. It also provides a handy > > connector, and a simple protocol by which to provide yourself with up to 256 > > I/O ports in either direction, without having to open the box except to plug > > The other possibility (which is _very_ easy, and fast enough for > human-readable lamps and switches) is to bit-bang I2C over a couple of > lines of the printer port (you need 1 input (data in) and 2 outputs (data > out and clock out) -- you don't need the clock input for most common > devices). Then hang a few PCF8584 and PCF8584A chips off it (each is a > single 8 bit I/O port, and you can have 8 of _each_ on a single I2C bus). > > > > in the parallel port card. If one happened to come with a DLL with which > > you can write WINDOWS code for your port, so much the better! > > Well, if you _must_ use that so-called OS, I suppose so... Personally, > I'd rather have a linux system, a copy of gcc and a bit-level definition > of the registers on the card.... > You don't need a bit-level definition beyond the standard, since all EPP ports are defined/characterized in IEEE standard 1284. There are dozens of sites that provide details and code examples on the web. > > > > One rather important aspect, of course, is that the printer port can really > > drive the properly terminated cable, while a "normal" MOS LSI for parallel > > That is, alas, not always the case. A lot of printer ports have pretty > poor drive characteristics. Maybe some modern ones (particularly > high-speed/EPP/etc ones) are better. > I think you may be misinformed, here, Tony. The original port (LSTTL) was CERTAINLY able to drive a cable of up to 20' length, though it wasn't recommended. The extremely popular 82C11 that occupies about two thirds of the pre-IEEE-STD-1284 port boards I have lying about, drives harder than the original TTL version after which it is patterned. The TTL used by the original PC was probably the least hefty driver set ever used on the PC printer port. > > > I/O, e.g. 8255, 6821, etc, can't. > > Yes, but for this application (driving an 11/45 panel) you need to drive > normal TTL loads not that fast. > I'm not familiar with the 11/45 FP. Does it have receivers that can get by with the less-than half milliamp source and little more than a single milliamp sink current of these devices ( one port may drive 2 mA . . . ??) I don't know how well the 6821 or 8255 like driving cables. I've never tried it because they always were buffered in applications I've studied. In fact, I've found the buffers normally work more conveniently than the LSI's they serve, so I normally do things with TTL/CMOS logic and leave out the fancy LSI's unless there's a specific requirement (in writing) for them. > > -tony > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 9 22:53:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the hard drive? Joe From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 21:57:23 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > A totally mad project that somewhere on the to-be-hacked pile is to > modify the 8085 console system on an 11/44. Hang blickenlights and > switches off that processor (which would mean hardware mods to the MFM > card, but I have the prints...) and modify the console firmware to look > at them, and to edit PDP11 memory, etc, from them. And to still use the > serial port as the normal console terminal port. That sounds like great fun; a PDP-11/44 to PDP-11/44t conversion project! Does anyone know of any sources for some colorful, and well-made, switches that would look like they belong on an older computer's front panel? For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or vice versa? Front panel analog meters for monitoring the PSU voltage levels would be useful as well. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 22:13:57 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Jun 9, 0 07:06:36 pm" Message-ID: <200006100313.UAA10028@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I *think* it's part of the basic Apple //GS 'System 6' software. Geez, been ::so long since I've messed with mine that I can't even remember what the OS ::is called for sure. Anyway last I heard you could still get the disk images ::for the last OS release of an Apple FTP server, the trick is finding out ::where. Yeah, I heard a rumour that Apple offered GS/OS there, but I don't have any way of transferring the software (unless an Apple II meister out there would like to explain how ...) Can today's Macs format ProDOS volumes still? If not, does anyone have GS/OS on disk, or willing to make copies? I would gladly reimburse any inconvenience or we could come to an equitable understanding ... :-) By the way, about upgrading the SE/30. I want to upgrade the thing to System 7.x but NOT if it will mean I can no longer run AppleShare File Server. Can I download a System 7 friendly ASFS anywhere? This poor thing doesn't even have MultiFinder. I do know that Apple has System 7 for download, and I should hope a 68K version of ASFS ... ? ::Ouch, you should have shopped around! Of course I'm the fool who has been ::threatening to buy a spare brand new Apple Extended Keyboard II, and a ::couple spare ADB II Mice. They work great on my G4 with a USB-to-ADB ::converter, and since ADB is gone, it might be a good idea to pick up a ::couple new spares while I still can. That was why I got stuck on the price. CompUkeSA has plenty of USB stuff but only one ADB model of mouse in the whole freaking store. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 19:59:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA:was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <004c01bfd281$cd47c470$7764c0d0@ajp166> >> Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" >> both jobs. It does contain some very light oil. Not the best lube though, then again mousemilk isn't either and I have both for those times when... WD40, like LPS-5, 3in1, LMO (light machine oil) and various lubricants on my shelf are like the assortment of hammers I have. Some are brass dead blows, plastic, wood, claw and ballpeen all for specific uses. When used for the right purpose the right to is a great help. WD40 is like screwdrivers as they get used for hammers, prybars and whatnot all to the great consternation of the machinest sorts that know and appreciate tools. Allison From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 22:27:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > hard drive? Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, didn't you? Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result in filesystem damage. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 22:48:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000609204719.0323c8e0@208.226.86.10> >For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone >have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or >vice versa? Actually in my PDP-8/x the use of white LEDs seems like it will be a win. --Chuck From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jun 9 23:25:57 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe Rigdon wrote: > > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > > hard drive? R.D. Davis replied: > Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, > didn't you? A familiar refrain ;>) > Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if > the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and > if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result > in filesystem damage. Granted, this is correct on both counts: the ps needs tested before it's applied to the system, and the heads probably need to be parked before the system is moved. If I understand Mr. Davis correctly, he's suggesting that the ps be tested and possibly repaired or replaced, then the system should be booted and the heads parked, all before taking the system home. Try doing this in a surplus store. Hmm, and what happens if the ps is okay but the system won't come up? Still can't move it until you park those heads . . . Personally, I just throw caution to the winds, handle the item as carefully as possible (it's probably been kicked around for years) and take it home so I can try to figure out what it is that I'm now the Proud Owner of ;>) Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 00:06:39 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Try doing this in a surplus store. Hmm, and what happens if the ps is okay > but the system won't come up? Still can't move it until you park those heads > . . . > > Personally, I just throw caution to the winds, handle the item as carefully > as possible (it's probably been kicked around for years) and take it home so > I can try to figure out what it is that I'm now the Proud Owner of ;>) Yes, if any damage was done to J.R.'s system, it quite possibly occured as a result of those who handled the system, perhaps carelessly, before he got it. Of course, carrying tools and a VOM to surplus store, thrift shop, hamfest (radio rally), etc. could be rather useful. The problem is that the person rescuing the equipment will most likely run into equipment from time to time with disk heads that she or he won't know how to park, and won't have the time to learn how to park them, if the equipment is to be saved. A bit of a catch-22. That said... Has anyone considered, or written, a head-parking FAQ for classic computers, listing drives that need to have their heads parked, and ways of doing this for various types of systems? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rivie at teraglobal.com Sat Jun 10 00:24:42 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > > By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB > > mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But > > I shan't complain too much :-) > >Ouch, you should have shopped around! Yeah, no kidding. The local university here has been disposing of old Mac stuff like you wouldn't believe. I came across a pile of LCIIs at the surplus store for $5 each and every one of them has enough RAM to run NetBSD as well as an Ethernet card. They also had a big box of ADB keyboards and mice for $5 each. Needless to say, I spent more money than I intended to (2 ea keyboard and mouse, an LCII with 10M RAM, and an LCIII ($15) with 20M RAM). While there are Apple knowledgeable folks paying attention, I also recently picked up a PowerBook 145. It's a really, really nice machine even though it doesn't have much RAM (4MB) or hard disk (40MB). I'm running 7.0.1 on it (7.5.3 used too much of both the RAM and the hard disk) and have been pleasantly surprised to find lots of software that runs on 7.0.1 (vi and lynx alone mean I can be productive doing documentation for some of my projects. Minix runs great, too), but I'd really like to stick a larger hard disk in the beast. The difficulty is that it uses a whacky 30 pin connector. Any hope of my finding a larger hard disk that'll work? I've not been an Apple person until recently so I don't know what was available for these machines. I have found a company that sells NiMH batteries for the beast, which will really help. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From mrdos at swbell.net Sat Jun 10 00:31:19 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible Message-ID: <001101bfd29d$1c68ec80$0a723ed8@compaq> There is an IBM System/38 with Tape Drive and 4 Disk Drives available in San Francisco California. If you are interested contact Rbatist@aol.com . If you get it, tell me all about it 'cause I REALLY wanted this one, but there isn't enough time to arrange for shipping. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000610/0c1d2096/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 00:33:45 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Without getting into detail, which would require I refresh my memory about a > number of these examples, I'd point out that EPOXY is one that came about by > accident, although there are many others. I'd be surprised to find that > someone set out to build a semiconductor, knowing that the physical > chemistry of the substances involved, and that people, though they knew in > advance that such things could be done, simply hadn't bothered for one > reason or another. Likewise, I recently saw a PBS program that went into > some detail about the invention of RADAR. That certainly wasn't planned out > in advance. Nobel (according to another PBS program) didn't set about to > invent Nitrogycerin, nor, knowing about nitrogycerine, did he set out to > invent nitrocellulose, And, of course, there's the Post-It. That certainly > was an accident, resulting from a spill, according to the inventor, who was > interviewed on an NPR program. And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. - don ________O/_______ O\ From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 00:50:39 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > hard drive? Joe, I will send you a copy of Command.COM for the TI Professional Computer. Be advised, however, that those machines gag on off-the-shelf DOS versions. TI's was a bit off the beaten path. - don From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 01:06:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: References: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >While there are Apple knowledgeable folks paying attention, I also >recently picked up a PowerBook 145. It's a really, really nice machine >even though it doesn't have much RAM (4MB) or hard disk (40MB). I'm >running 7.0.1 on it (7.5.3 used too much of both the RAM and the >hard disk) and have been pleasantly surprised to find lots of software >that runs on 7.0.1 (vi and lynx alone mean I can be productive doing >documentation for some of my projects. Minix runs great, too), but I'd >really like to stick a larger hard disk in the beast. The difficulty >is that it uses a whacky 30 pin connector. Any hope of my finding a >larger hard disk that'll work? I've not been an Apple person until >recently so I don't know what was available for these machines. I have >found a company that sells NiMH batteries for the beast, which will >really help. > >Roger Ivie You might want to check out the following site. http://www.powerbookguy.com/ I've not done business with him, but he's been around for several years. He carries various old systems and bits. Personally I'd upgrade to System 7.1, but not higher. If you can find a copy of MS Word 5.1 it should give you a good Word Processor. Another site to check out would be http://lowendmac.com/index.shtml I love old Mac's, they're user friendly :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 00:11:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, > didn't you? Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if It's a damn PC! > the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and > if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result > in filesystem damage. Gee, really? Lighten up, R.D. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 00:14:44 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > carelessly, before he got it. Of course, carrying tools and a VOM to > surplus store, thrift shop, hamfest (radio rally), etc. could be > rather useful. The problem is that the person rescuing the equipment Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. > That said... Has anyone considered, or written, a head-parking FAQ for > classic computers, listing drives that need to have their heads > parked, and ways of doing this for various types of systems? No, we're waiting for you to write it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Jun 10 01:16:49 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > - don Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich carbon? carlos. From ernestls at home.com Sat Jun 10 01:40:13 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000201bfd2a6$bba637e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) Very nice catch. You know, you can hook that SE/30 into an NT network, onto which you can download files from the net, and copy to your IIgs' via the AppleTalk network. The joys of networking still make me giddy sometimes. NT has an AppleTalk protocol option that works very well. If you don't have an NT network at home, take it to work and see if you're NT admin will help you out. If he's anything like me, he would enjoy the challenge but I wouldn't mention it to the company heads. There's usually some sort of beer payments involved so go prepared, and not with Coors or Miller (barf!) How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. You're right, you do need some additional software, and information on how to do it. Fortunately, there are more knowledgeable people than me to get directions from on comp.sys.apple2. Rubywand in particular is very knowledgeable and friendly. Ernest From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Jun 10 07:26:12 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:13 PM > > Yeah, I heard a rumour that Apple offered GS/OS there, but I don't have > any way of transferring the software (unless an Apple II meister out there > would like to explain how ...) Can today's Macs format ProDOS volumes still? > If not, does anyone have GS/OS on disk, or willing to make copies? I would > gladly reimburse any inconvenience or we could come to an equitable > understanding ... :-) The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks well. GS/OS v6 (the latest) needs more memory than just the 1MB Apple memory card. If your IIgs only has about 1MB then do not bother with GS/OS. The previous owner may have been using them as IIe's (ProDOS 8) as I do with my IIgs. I can copy the disks for you, but you will have to send me a box of DS/DD disks as I do not wish to lose any of my little hoard. > By the way, about upgrading the SE/30. I want to upgrade the thing to > System 7.x but NOT if it will mean I can no longer run AppleShare File > Server. Can I download a System 7 friendly ASFS anywhere? This poor > thing doesn't even have MultiFinder. I do know that Apple has System 7 > for download, and I should hope a 68K version of ASFS ... ? I *think* that ASFS v2 can only run on System 6 while ASFS v3 can run on System 7. Both may take over the entire machine so using the Mac normally may be impossible. Make a backup before experimenting! My answer to the Apple II/Macintosh/MS-DOS data transfer problem is a Macintosh LC II with an Apple IIe card running System 7.1 and the extension that lets me read and write Apple II and MS-DOS disks. The extension cannot handle Win9x long file names but I do no need that. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 08:41:31 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. > > Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > Tang was developed by General Foods in the 1960's. It was an 'also ran' product until chosen by nasa as an alternative to plan water during space missions. NASA and the space race has developed technologies such as artificial satelites, which gives us 100's of TV channels, cell phones, and pagers... The bastards!!! clint PS all spelling errors are due to staying up too late to play Drakan (on my wizzy new Pentium III - 600!!! with an antique (1 year old design) motherboard :) From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 09:33:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <001101bfd2e8$e23a9940$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I don't know about how much sulphur is required, but quite a bit of carbon-black is required to make the stuff sufficiently rigid and durable to resist abrasion sufficiently for use in tires. Of course, that's not all it takes, but the process was set in motion by accident, and that was Don's point. The Latex laced with carbon-black, and perhaps a bit of sulphur, after lots of refinement, remained the preferred material for truck tires long after the discovery of synthetic (styrene-butadiene) rubbers suitable for normal automobile tires. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:16 AM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally > >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we > >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > > > - don > > Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required > for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich > carbon? > > carlos. > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 08:20:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <00bb01bfd2e2$029bf3c0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. I thought it was sulphur. Carbon black was added for light/uv resistance. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 08:24:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <00bc01bfd2e2$04b759b0$7764c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > >>For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone >>have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or >>vice versa? NE2 bulbs need 75-90v db supply to run. If your to use them use NE2H as they are brighter. >Actually in my PDP-8/x the use of white LEDs seems like it will be a win. Almost... White leds are biased toward blue white and incandesent lamps were white biased toward red. Also with incandesant the color of the lens cap was a factor. for examaple it could be red, amber, green even blue. Allison From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 09:46:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. > Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many > shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a bad idea when shopping for a car either. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 10:29:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 Message-ID: Greetings, Can certain list members who aren't sending standard ASCII text kindly fix their e-mail software so that they stop sending messagse that could possibly cause problems for some people using older systems? Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep from going out of use? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 10 10:35:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 04:17:15PM -0700 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000610113525.A10041@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Decoding an address >for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as >well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? 17777570 John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 10 10:40:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000 References: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). WD40 seems to work OK for lube while honing cylinders in car engines. But it doesn't have to hang around long for that... Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 10:34:15 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Is > > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > > disguised as a flaw? > > > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > security is just not that good. > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > has not improved. > > First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as > Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what > a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was > that it would provide information sharing between a small > number of trusted and trusting sites. > Yes, the ARPAnet (funded by DARPA - DEFENSE Advanced Research blah blah) was the prototype for a distributed communications system built to survive a nuclear attack. MILnet was built based on this prototype, and is in use today. It is mostly secure because there are only a few, tightly controlled, gateways to the Internet. NSFnet was the publically funded arm developed to facilitate communication between universities and a few corporations. For the most part individuals that had access to the Internet were college upperclassmen, who had a real reason to have access. My first experience was in the mid-80's, when more lowerclassmen were being granted access. This brought about the proliferation of ftp sites with pictures of nekked women, and the threat from NSF to disconnect any site (they could do that, and make it stick) engaged in such a frivolous waste of bandwidth. There still wasn't a great need for security because the only people having access were college educated individuals without a great design to destroy. Hacking into remote computers was done for the challenge and to discover new stuff. Then AOL came along :) With the selling of backbone connections by AT&T and others, and the proliferation of internet connections that NSF didn't control, NSFnet was soon overwhelmed and absorbed by the Internet. We now have an anarchy of competing ISPs tied into the Internet, and low cost access available to any monkey with a keyboard. There is now a real need to protect the backbone against malicious hackers, but no real way to do it. > However, from my own personal experience, I have never > succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > second time. > > regards, > -doug quebbeman > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 10:42:40 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks for the several helpful replies on this topic. > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 Clint Wolff wrote: > > I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will > > result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. > > Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. > > Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are > > shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. > > The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly > > short time after opening (couple days IIRC). > > Ah, I have read about that. > > IC manufacturers often specify a procedure to use when chips which may have > absorbed water are to be used. This involves baking at low temperature for a > while. > > Assuming that (for the purposes of removing absorbed water) one plastic IC > package is the same as the next, at which temperature and for how long should > this baking be done? > > The lowest setting on my oven is 70 degrees C. If that is low enough -- I > guess it should be as most ICs are specified for operation to 75 C or so -- I > may try putting the board in there for 12 or 24 hours, before turning the > temperature up to melt the solder. > > > -- Mark > Hi Mark, I don't know. I would be concerned about heating the entire chip up to a high enough temperature to melt the solder. You are almost certainly going to damage it. Most ICs are specified with specific temperature profiles to avoid damage, and they are only above the melting point of solder for a few seconds, followed by a fairly lengthy cooldown period. You need to quickly melt the solder, remove the IC, and let it cool down slowly. I don't think this is possibly in an oven. clint PS the offer stills stands to use the hot air equipment at my workplace. I regularly remove 208 pin SQFPs and occasionally reinstall them :) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 11:01:43 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at "Jun 10, 0 08:26:12 am" Message-ID: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> ::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). ::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). ::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks ::well. Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but I can get some. ::GS/OS v6 (the latest) needs more memory than just the 1MB Apple memory ::card. If your IIgs only has about 1MB then do not bother with GS/OS. The ::previous owner may have been using them as IIe's (ProDOS 8) as I do with my ::IIgs. Can ProDOS speak AppleTalk? That's the main reason for my interest in GS/OS. If ProDOS can access an AppleTalk server, then I don't really care about GS/OS. How much memory does v6 require? ::I *think* that ASFS v2 can only run on System 6 while ASFS v3 can run on ::System 7. Both may take over the entire machine so using the Mac normally ::may be impossible. Make a backup before experimenting! This is ASFS v2. Where can I get v3? (Yup, it does take over the whole machine :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but the doorjambs need dusting." ------------- From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 11:01:24 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one > riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course > there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd > be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few > months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent > ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. Have you tried a spray can of white lithium grease? It's not permanent, but it may last a while longer on your house's door hinge than WD40. Note: there appear to be two varieties, the thin stuff that doesn't last long on car door hinges, that's now sold by some auto parts stores, and the heavy thick stuff that one sprays on car door and hood hinges, etc. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 10 11:19:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 10, R. D. Davis wrote: > Can certain list members who aren't sending standard ASCII text kindly > fix their e-mail software so that they stop sending messagse that > could possibly cause problems for some people using older systems? > > Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in > computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages > instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to > be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, > then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very > much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain > old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep > from going out of use? I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or "non-windows" issue. -Dave McGuire From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 10 11:30:29 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Vax-11 Instruction Set Videos References: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> <393679F7.77B16644@rain.org> Message-ID: <39426D25.F88A2800@rain.org> So far, there has been no interest. One last chance before I put them out on Ebay; anyone interested? If so, make what you consider a reasonable offer. My current plan is to put them on Ebay Sunday or Monday evening. Thanks. > This is a set of thirteen 3/4" tapes that cover the Vax-11 Instruction Set. > They are titled: > > Instruction Formats & Addressing Modes > Lesson 1, Lessons 2 & 3 > Integer, Logical, & Branch Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 & 4 > Floating Point Instructions > Variable Bit Field Instructions > Stack & Address Instructions > Procedure & Subroutine Instructions > Character String Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, lessons 3 & 4 > Special Instructions > Decimal String Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 - 5 > > I am selling these for John as he is doing what I should be doing: emptying > the house :).Again, these are on 3/4" tape, NOT VHS. $300 for the set + > shipping for about 27 pounds or so. From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 10:31:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > > Tang was developed by General Foods in the 1960's. It was an > 'also ran' product until chosen by nasa as an alternative to > plan water during space missions. Ok, so both of my examples have been shot down. So I'll propse two alternates: Food in a squeeze tube and suction toilets!! Two obviously very useful inventions. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 11:34:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002901bfd2f9$c2c763c0$0400c0a8@winbook> You can use WD40. However, you need to add some Molybdenum Disulfide, which is one of those compounds they put in grease in order to make it slippery. The WD40 will evaporate, or whatever it does, leaving the moly-disulfide behind to do the job. You'll have to buy about a pound at some industrial supply house, and it will cost about the 5% if what a 1-ounce bottle at one of the rare suppliers (I couldn't find one when I last bought a pound) that do have it would cost. Moly-disulfide is a dry powder, and a 1-pound quantity would be a hundred lifetime supplies. Once you have it, you'll find that it works for LOTS of lube applications. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about > >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). > > WD40 seems to work OK for lube while honing cylinders in car engines. > But it doesn't have to hang around long for that... > > Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one > riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course > there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd > be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few > months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent > ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 11:40:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 11:40:20 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <002f01bfd2fa$92571220$0400c0a8@winbook> A lot of the security problems would go away if they took the few individuals they actually catch abusing their net use privilege and dipped them, slowly, into a hot solder-pot during half-time of a major televised sporting event. If they dip a few extra guys, it's OK, since we're overpopulated by 10000% anyway. An apology would suffice and think of what it would do for the ratings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:34 AM Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Is > > > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > > > disguised as a flaw? > > > > > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > > security is just not that good. > > > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > > has not improved. > > > > First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as > > Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what > > a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was > > that it would provide information sharing between a small > > number of trusted and trusting sites. > > > > Yes, the ARPAnet (funded by DARPA - DEFENSE Advanced > Research blah blah) was the prototype for a distributed > communications system built to survive a nuclear attack. > MILnet was built based on this prototype, and is in use > today. It is mostly secure because there are only a few, > tightly controlled, gateways to the Internet. > > NSFnet was the publically funded arm developed to facilitate > communication between universities and a few corporations. > For the most part individuals that had access to the Internet > were college upperclassmen, who had a real reason to have > access. My first experience was in the mid-80's, when > more lowerclassmen were being granted access. This > brought about the proliferation of ftp sites with pictures > of nekked women, and the threat from NSF to disconnect > any site (they could do that, and make it stick) engaged > in such a frivolous waste of bandwidth. There still wasn't > a great need for security because the only people having > access were college educated individuals without a great > design to destroy. Hacking into remote computers was done > for the challenge and to discover new stuff. > > Then AOL came along :) With the selling of backbone > connections by AT&T and others, and the proliferation of > internet connections that NSF didn't control, NSFnet was > soon overwhelmed and absorbed by the Internet. We now > have an anarchy of competing ISPs tied into the Internet, > and low cost access available to any monkey with a keyboard. > There is now a real need to protect the backbone against > malicious hackers, but no real way to do it. > > > However, from my own personal experience, I have never > > succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to > > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > > second time. > > > > regards, > > -doug quebbeman > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 10:54:01 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. > > Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many > > shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. > > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > bad idea when shopping for a car either. R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being forcibly escorted out of the store. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 12:09:36 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 10, 0 12:40:10 pm" Message-ID: <200006101709.KAA07198@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy ::drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've ::seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal ::floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the ::SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. For the record, this one here is one FD, one HD, and so have all the SE/30s that I've seen. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The world only beats a path to your door when you're in the bathroom. ------ From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Jun 10 12:18:42 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <20000610172026.YJCD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > Date: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:01 PM > > Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to > another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do > the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but > I can get some. The SE/30 can handle 800K disks with no problems (unless someone changed the drive...). You will need Disk Copy 4.2 to create the disks. > Can ProDOS speak AppleTalk? That's the main reason for my interest in > GS/OS. If ProDOS can access an AppleTalk server, then I don't really care > about GS/OS. How much memory does v6 require? I have an Apple II Workstation Card that will let my Apple IIe, using ProDOS 8, talk to ASFS. It is possible, but I have not done it yet myself. Someday I will set up an AppleShare server for my Apple IIs but I simply have not done it yet. > This is ASFS v2. Where can I get v3? (Yup, it does take over the whole > machine :-) See the following site for information on ASFS v3: http://lowendmac.com/tech/appleshare3.shtml. I do not know where to get it. I just missed it once on Usenet; by the time I contacted the owner it was already gone. It had version 2 and 3 with all the disks and manuals, too. For more help, try Usenet at comp.sys.apple2. That's where I learned most of what I know about networking Apple IIs. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Jun 10 12:39:09 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: R.D. Davis wrote: > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > bad idea when shopping for a car either. Sellam Ismail replied: < R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being forcibly escorted out of the store. > Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally, store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something. You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though. Glen 0/0 From g at kurico.com Sat Jun 10 12:53:28 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: References: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <39423A48.4968.4E3D731@localhost> > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. Pretty uncommon. The hd normally lives where the bottom floppy would go, so if yours is dual floppy + hd, then I'd think that the hd is third party and mounted towards the back of the unit under the crt? George From red at bears.org Sat Jun 10 13:32:20 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000610172026.YJCD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > The SE/30 can handle 800K disks with no problems (unless someone changed > the drive...). You will need Disk Copy 4.2 to create the disks. I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write the older GCR-type disks. I forget now the list of which Macs can and cannot do this, but ISTR the SE/30 was very close to being the last, if not itself the last. I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. ok r. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 11:40:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <003501bfd304$2e536350$7764c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to >do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or >"non-windows" issue. It's not that either. It's lazy or just plain lack of knowledge. outlook express and be told to use plain text (not rtf or html) and far as I know I'm doing just that from a NT4 system. It annoying to me as a NT/OE user as RTF and html will alter termprorary settings for fonts and all when I don't want that all due to someone who does not know. Allison From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 13:48:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally > >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we > >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > > > - don > > Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required > for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich > carbon? > > carlos. Nope, I was! - don From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 14:39:52 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at "Jun 10, 0 02:32:20 pm" Message-ID: <200006101939.MAA10102@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from ::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this on the Apple FTP site? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. ------------------ From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 14:49:25 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > "non-windows" issue. Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system issue. Thanks for the explanation. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From vonhagen at vonhagen.org Sat Jun 10 15:04:36 2000 From: vonhagen at vonhagen.org (William von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer and "Smart Shopping" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000610153840.00e0e880@vonhagen.org> I'll have to add my voice to the geek chorus here ;-) Buying random hardware out of a mountain of spares at a hamfest is one thing, but getting a used S-100 FOOBAR at the local Red, White, and Blue is another. No store owner with any notion of what liability means is going to let some random come in and start attaching probes to a motherboard even if the store owner should happen to understand the difference between AC, DC, and Metallica ;-), let alone to a power supply or monitor. I've definitely bought used systems over the years that I've said "I should have looked" when I got them home and found blown caps, melted wires, skunked power supplies, and even dead rodents inside. Once I get them home, I always open them up before powering them on. You hopefully only experience the "OhNo" second once in your collecting career (the first second after you turn something on, it smokes, and you think "Oh no.") My general philosophy for such things is "parts is parts." I've frequently bought pieces of systems or docs and software for systems I didn't even own - eventually, when I find another one or the rest of one, I'll be that much closer to a working system. It'd be nice to be able to always know what you're buying. When I bought my wife our first Jaguar (er, the car, not the game system), how was I to know that one of the gas tanks was rusty and they were both welded inside the body? I wasn't happy then, but now it seems funny. Much like buying our first house - the owners had all of these hardcore born-again signs all through the house. Would they lie about things? Absolutely. Was I irritated then? Definitely. Do I still care now? Definitely not. As I read back over this, maybe I'm just advertising the fact that I'm not a smart shopper. Having confessed, does anyone have any 1980s vintage workstations they're looking to get rid of? I would still give my eyeteeth for a WCW or Hitec workstation, and could always use more NBI U!s or ISIs. Any condition is OK (and I think you see that I mean that!). I'll be glad to pay shipping from almost anywhere. Bill t 01:39 PM 6/10/00 -0400, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: >R.D. Davis wrote: > > > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > > bad idea when shopping for a car either. > >Sellam Ismail replied: > >< R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer > electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and > meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being > forcibly escorted out of the store. > > >Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to >perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd >assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them >to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally, >store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make >sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something. > >You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though. > >Glen >0/0 From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 10 15:09:20 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question Message-ID: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Hi, I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, but there's a missing button battery of some kind. Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery I should use (the circular battery)? thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 15:43:08 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 10, 0 03:49:25 pm" Message-ID: <200006102043.NAA12732@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to ::> do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or ::> "non-windows" issue. :: ::Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system ::issue. Thanks for the explanation. iN THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISCUSSION, i SUBMIT THAT ALL MAIL SHOULD ACTUALLY BE IN petascii, AS BEFITS A CLASSIC COMPUTING FORUM. tHIS PARTICULAR MESSAGE SHOULD HOPEFULLY SET AN EXAMPLE. -- --------------------------- PERSONAL PAGE: HTTP://WWW.ARMORY.COM/%7eSPECTRE/ -- cAMERON kAISER * pOINT lOMA nAZARENE uNIVERSITY * CKAISER@PTLOMA.EDU -- i DO NOT FEAR COMPUTERS. i FEAR THE LACK OF THEM. -- iSAAC aSIMOV ---------- From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 10 15:44:26 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: GRiDCase 3 price question. Message-ID: <20000610204426.24289.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anybody know what the asking price for a GRiDCase 3 is? I would love to ad this to my collection one of these days. A bit of trivia: If anybody has seen the *long* version of the movie "Aliens" , the computers that the marines use to control the motion controlled smart guns are GRiDCases, I'm not sure which model. My guess is that they are GRiDCase 3's. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 15:45:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at "Jun 10, 0 08:26:12 am" Message-ID: >::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). >::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). >::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks >::well. > >Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to >another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do >the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but >I can get some. I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lbutzel at home.com Sat Jun 10 15:52:18 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question References: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Stan - I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the backup power source. Leo Butzel Seattle,WA lbutzel@home.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stan Sieler To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:09 PM Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question > Hi, > > I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, > no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see > that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, > but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > > Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery > I should use (the circular battery)? > > thanks! > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 16:06:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: >> I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something >> before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect >> sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some >> random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a >> bad idea when shopping for a car either. > >R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer >electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and >meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being >forcibly escorted out of the store. Lets face it, he's got to be in a different reality than the rest of us! I know of exactly one 'dealer' who this kind of behavior is acceptable with, of course in his case, he's likely to be the one tearing the stuff open to see what's in it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Jun 10 16:26:41 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <200006102043.NAA12732@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jun 10, 2000 01:43:08 pm" Message-ID: <200006102126.QAA05294@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > ::> I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > ::> do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > ::> "non-windows" issue. > :: > ::Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > ::issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > iN THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISCUSSION, i SUBMIT THAT ALL MAIL SHOULD > ACTUALLY BE IN petascii, AS BEFITS A CLASSIC COMPUTING FORUM. > tHIS PARTICULAR MESSAGE SHOULD HOPEFULLY SET AN EXAMPLE. > I ^C^A^N^N^O^T ^U^N^D^E^R^S^T^A^N^D ^W^H^A^T ^Y^O^U ^A^R^E ^T^R^Y^I^N^G ^T^O ^S^A^Y. C^A^N ^Y^O^U ^R^E^S^E^N^D ^T^H^E ^M^E^S^S^A^G^E ^U^S^I^N^G ^P^R^O^P^E^R C^O^N^T^R^O^L D^A^T^A C^O^R^P^O^R^A^T^I^O^N (CDC) ASCII? T^H^A^N^K ^Y^O^U. L^A^W^R^E^N^C^E L^EM^A^Y !RUTGERS!UMN-CS!LEMAY From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 10 16:56:54 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <39425736.28479.F81314C@localhost> Hi, > I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the > backup power source. thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 17:00:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 References: Message-ID: <001901bfd327$3dad0e00$0400c0a8@winbook> That reduces almost trivially to a convenience versus self-flagellation issue. After years of fiddling with pine and the like, whichever happened to be on the system to which I had shell access, I'm glad there's a convenient way to utilize the net. Without getting into the Windows versus "other" debate, I must say it's a simple matter of using what's easy and convenient as opposed to something not so easy and not so convenient. Neither one does exactly what I want it to do, but one is close enough while the other isn't. Apparently lots of others feel the same way, though I imagine most Windows users have no other experience on the net. I'd say it's easy enough for most folks to turn off the fancier-than-plain-old-text mode and resort to simple text transmission. Occasionally, however, since I do communicate with people who like to use HTML, I sometimes forget and leave the mode in whichever state it was when I answered the previous mail. Perhaps others have made that mistake as well. The inconvenience of being incompatible with the HTML when I'm using a CP/M system (which I certainly don't do on the net) is a price one pays for using an old dog that can't seem to learn new tricks. Almost any 15-year-old long obsolete SUN box can do it. If I want to use my old 8-bitter to do this, inconvenient or not, it's my choice, don't you think? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 > On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 10 17:01:15 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) References: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14658.47787.664656.260982@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 10, R. D. Davis wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. Well, pretty much, yes. -Dave McGuire From bwit at pobox.com Sat Jun 10 17:03:42 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000610170317.00a8d260@mail.ruffboy.com> DL2032 lithium. At 01:09 PM 6/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, >no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see >that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, >but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > >Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery >I should use (the circular battery)? > >thanks! > > >Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com >www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Withers Do or do not, there is no try. bwit@pobox.com Yoda. http://www.ruffboy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- Version 3.1 http://www.geekcode.com GCS d- s: a+ C++ UO++ P L++ E--- W++ N++ o-- w++ O M V- PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5 X++ r* tv+ b++ DI++ D--- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++ ----- END GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- From owad at applefritter.com Sat Jun 10 19:04:28 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006110007.RAA18262@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from >::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. > >Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this >on the Apple FTP site? ftp://ftp.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English- North_American/Macintosh/Utilities/Disk_Copy/Disk_Copy_4.2.sea.hqx Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From lkinzer at sciti.com Sat Jun 10 21:21:20 2000 From: lkinzer at sciti.com (Lowell Kinzer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> References: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000610182056.00b00390@popmail.ltsp.com> Stan, The technical specifications for the various Newton models are still available on the Apple web site. The Newton support page starts here: http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n26179 Best regards, Lowell Kinzer lkinzer@sciti.com At 12:52 PM 6/10/00, Leo Butzel wrote: >Stan - > >I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the >backup power source. > >Leo Butzel >Seattle,WA >lbutzel@home.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Stan Sieler >To: >Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:09 PM >Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question > > > > Hi, > > > > I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, > > no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see > > that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, > > but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > > > > Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery > > I should use (the circular battery)? > > > > thanks! > > > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 20:34:42 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110007.RAA18262@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from Tom Owad at "Jun 10, 0 08:04:28 pm" Message-ID: <200006110134.SAA05910@oa.ptloma.edu> Thanks, Tom and especially John L., who sent me the actual file. Will it work on System 6? I'm going to commandeer my friend's Mac tomorrow and do all the file and disk work. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Room service? Send up a bigger room. -- Groucho Marx ----------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 20:39:09 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 10, 0 01:45:58 pm" Message-ID: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> ::>::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). ::>::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). ::>::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks ::>::well. ::> ::>Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to ::>another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do ::>the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but ::>I can get some. :: ::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will the extension work on System 6? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From red at bears.org Sat Jun 10 20:44:43 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006101939.MAA10102@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from > ::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. > > Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this > on the Apple FTP site? Yes, though 4.2 is several revisions behind. If Apple's FTP site doesn't have 4.2 availble, and the current software won't do the job (it at least runs on an SE/30), let me know and I may have a copy archived somewhere. ok r. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 20:57:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 10, 0 01:45:58 pm" Message-ID: >::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. > >I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to >format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will >the extension work on System 6? Um, let me change that statement to I've used mine running System 7.1 to do it. I guess that could make a difference.... :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Jun 10 22:17:06 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000b01bfd353$85434d70$013da8c0@Corellian> You don't format the disk before you make a copy with Diskcopy. Diskcopy accepts what is known as an "image file". After loading the image file, you can insert a floppy and it will make a disk copy from that image, in whatever "format" the image was. After starting Diskcopy, if you insert a foreign diskette (such as when I put a LisaTest diskette into the drive), the Mac may complain that it is not a Macintosh disk, but you can select to "mount" it anyway. In any case, you can copy that disk, or make a copy onto it, or make a hard drive file image from from it. The Mac "superdrive" should handle both 800K and 1.44 diskettes (although I've only used Diskcopy to make a copy of an image on an external 800K drive just to be safe). This was all done on a Mac IIsi with 16mb and running system 7.5. John jlewczyk@his.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > > > ::>::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX > or MacBin). > ::>::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if > they can at all). > ::>::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle > the 1.44MB disks > ::>::well. > ::> > ::>Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to > ::>another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be > able to do > ::>the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD > disks here, but > ::>I can get some. > :: > ::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine > to do it. > > I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to > format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will > the extension work on System 6? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Jun 11 00:23:27 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: FW: Last chance for tapes In-Reply-To: <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: For those of us that have QIC tape drives, this fellow has a bunch of DC6525 tapes, most of them still in their shrink wrap. Please contact him directly if interested. -=-=- -=-=- In article <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net>, you say... > Subject: Last chance for tapes > From: Jack LaBrecque > Reply-To: JITB@postoffice.worldnet.att.net > Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr, comp.sys.att, comp.periphs.scsi > > SONY QD6525N (Same as DC6525 from 3M) & 3M DDS-90 4mm. I have 50-100 of > each. Most are brand new and still in wrappers. Make me an offer or > they go to the dump. > > -- > Semper Fi > > Jack L > JITB's Home Page: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ > JITB's USMC Page: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/usmc/usmc.htm > PFC Edward A. Peterson: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ed/pete.htm > > -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (http://www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin [a-t] bluefeathertech {d=o=t} com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Jun 11 10:51:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006111551.IAA11828@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, thanks to a clever guy on c.s.a2, I got the IIgs to network boot. It involved going into the Control Panel, setting slot 2 to AppleTalk, and setting the startup slot to AppleTalk. It magically found Steve, the Mac, and was able to connect and boot ProDOS 8. BASIC.SYSTEM came up without a hitch, and I was able to use the Mac as a fileshare without problem. Neat! Thanks for all the help, folks! It had some trouble booting GS/OS from the Mac, however. It showed the "Welcome to the IIgs" box, and got about half-way through (at the bottom, an AppleTalk share icon eventually showed up), but then abruptly bombed out and dropped back to the AppleShare client. GS/OS then wouldn't come up at all until I rebooted the machine. Corrupt copy or not enough memory? Someone on c.s.a2 said it should at least boot with 1MB, even if it couldn't run much. Later today I'm going to build those GS/OS disks and see if starting it up from the floppy drive makes any difference. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words - From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 11 12:03:06 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news Message-ID: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Well just got back from my two weeks in Houston and had a few great finds and a little bad luck. The good news is I found a number of good finds, here's a short list as some of the items are not 10 years old yet. 1. Royal TA model F1 computer, ext. floppy drive, and user's manual all for $6 2. Amiga 1040 3. Percom ext. floppy drive unit 4. 15 - Mac keyboards, no cables but they were free for the taking. 5. Team concepts printer 6. NEC MultiSpin 6X cdrom reader 7. Socrates mousesystem with tablet and mouse 8. Epson Equity LT-286e laptop not working but was also free. 9. Scan-It by digital media labs for the Mac, $8 bucks at flea market 10. Sega 3D adapter 11. Many manuals and books 12. HP 98720A 13. Amiga 1000 14. Suncom animation station computergraphics sensor pad 15. Atrai printer adapter for the 800 The list is much longer but the other items do not meet the 10 year rule. The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. John Keys From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 11 12:36:33 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: Good News/Bad news (John R. Keys Jr.) References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. Wow, that *sucks*. Sounds like somebody needs some broken fingers. Sorry to hear that, man. -Dave McGuire From retro at retrobits.com Sun Jun 11 13:00:40 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> John, Congrats on the good finds! Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step up to the loss. My humble opinion. - Earl > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > John Keys > From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Jun 10 19:59:46 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 References: Message-ID: <026e01bfd3d5$eee8eb40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Even with windows I hate the non-ascii layout Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:49 PM Subject: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 > On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From dann at greycat.com Sun Jun 11 13:22:24 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:36:33PM -0400 References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000611112224.A9086@greycat.com> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:36:33PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > Wow, that *sucks*. Sounds like somebody needs some broken fingers. > Sorry to hear that, man. Indeed! IANAL, but that strikes me as an extremely actionable offense: "I paid for it." They accepted it, There are implied contracts here. If that had happened to me, I would have left a smoking crater, figuratively speaking, where that store used to be. Some things shouldn't be tolerated. I'd consult a lawyer. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:02:47 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <3943E257.B1E88EE3@roanoke.infi.net> Sounds like the store DID "step up to the loss", they cut the price on another piece [amount unspecified] to compensate for the vandalism to the System/36......Let's not beat a dead horse here! Nice find BTW. Craig Earl Evans wrote: > > John, > > Congrats on the good finds! > > Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. > I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously > wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It > might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible > (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The > "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this > way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) > probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. > > A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If > not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. > > Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership > needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all > the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your > responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. > > I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step > up to the loss. My humble opinion. > > - Earl > > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > John Keys > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:20:06 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA Message-ID: <3943E666.BDCE51CF@roanoke.infi.net> I'm hoping that someone knows something about some of this stuff and/or can use some of it. Not free but really reasonable IF you can come to Roanoke, VA and load it up. HP 3000 Series III mainframe [a couple of racks worth, but some vandal hauled ALL the cards to a recycler prior to my finding it] HP 3000 system 30 cute little R2D2 sized mainframe [no cards] HP Tape Drives 7970 several variations HP disk drives, big and heavy 7920's & 25's HP keyboards & terminals 2640,2645, maybe some 2649's non HP stuff: CDC PA5N1 harddrives--also heavy! Bunch of NCR minis running VRX or VRX/E, also got a couple of controlers and a PS or two from the same series pile of TRS-80 series III Not cheap but lots of them: HP 1000 E&F series minis HP 21MX series minis HP "A" series minis This is a serious size pile--probably 2-3 tons of stuff in really good condition. My storage runneth over. Craig From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:24:04 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA Message-ID: <3943E754.EB5669B5@roanoke.infi.net> Forgot to include the URL for some pix of this junk. http://mh106.infi.net/~ip500/HPcomputers/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 11 16:29:47 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <001301bfd3ec$2c154fc0$59711fd1@default> No there was no warning before I left it and the manger told me this kind of thing happens alot there and they try not to let people leave items there. Had I been told this I would have had the lock it up the cage they keep the high dollar items in. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Good News/Bad news > > John, > > Congrats on the good finds! > > Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. > I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously > wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It > might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible > (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The > "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this > way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) > probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. > > A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If > not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. > > Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership > needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all > the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your > responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. > > I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step > up to the loss. My humble opinion. > > - Earl > > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > John Keys > > > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 11 18:12:50 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000611191250.0110abc4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:03 PM 6/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a >thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick >it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok >and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by >taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. >I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but >they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I >purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac >145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to >settle my problem. I bet that the store manager has an idea about who could have done this. Most likely, someone asked about the item after you left, he was told that the item was taken and decided that you would not have it either. Unfortunately, there are many people like that. carlos. From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 11 18:25:34 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA In-Reply-To: <3943E754.EB5669B5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000611192534.006c2408@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Wow, this brings back memories... the HP3000 series III was the first computer I ever touched; I was 13 at the time. My first BASIC program was the quadratic formula. I had to learn to use IF the first time that b^2-4ac turned out to be negative, something that I had not considered :-) . carlos. At 03:24 PM 6/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >Forgot to include the URL for some pix of this junk. >http://mh106.infi.net/~ip500/HPcomputers/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 11 18:41:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000611234157.31223.qmail@brouhaha.com> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > the older GCR-type disks. Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems whatsoever. As does my SE/30. From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 11 18:55:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor or keyboard for it? Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? BTW, Does anyone have any stories of favorite PDP-8 or Decmate hacks, and, has anyone here used a DECmate for any music or sound synthesis applications? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 11 20:58:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 07:55:58PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000611215824.A13332@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 07:55:58PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? I doubt it, with the standard slushware anyway. Maybe if you wrote your own. >Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? More or less -- the DECmate 2/3/3+ port of OS/8 is called OS/278. You can get raw disk images from ftp.dbit.com, under pub/pdp8/images/block. These are raw images in PDP-11 sector order, not Teledisk images, they can be written using PUTR.COM on a PC, or using whatever's handy on a Pro or MicroPDP-11 or MicroVAX. John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 11 20:18:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: <013701bfd417$14f8f6e0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? Running wps278, no! that software talks to the console at the default console device addresses. >Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? Yes, specifically OS278 version. Again the tube and keyboard are required. Why? the default console is devices 03/04 and those ahve been assigned via hardware to the CRT/keyboard with slushware support. Slushware is the code loaded into the alternate memory (Control pannel ram) to do "special tasks". To run it to say the printer or comm port you have to use OS278 and write a new console driver and bind the two. To do that you'd need a PDP-8 or a PDP-8 emulator. >BTW, Does anyone have any stories of favorite PDP-8 or Decmate hacks, >and, has anyone here used a DECmate for any music or sound synthesis >applications? In theory a DECmate could do music... the problem is interfacing it as there is no "bus" to grab that is easily available. the problem is one of the fully integrated system and trying to add/interface to it beyond the available design. It could be done but it would not be easy. It would be good to go to the PDP-8 FAQ and read the treatise on why a DECMATE is not a PDP-8, (almost does count!). Allison From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Jun 12 00:03:50 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 Message-ID: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Hey teen gang, Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can avoid it. (P.S. - Plus, technically I'm kinda grey on whether the license I have represents a "legitimate transfer of right to use" or not. But since Ultrix is officially a deader-than-dead end-of-lifed "These aren't the droids you're looking for; why don't you talk to our nice Tru64 salespeople?" type of software, I don't really care :) I just want to install the damn thing on a DECstation 5000/200) (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of mortal men.) (P.P.P.S ...Or women.) -Seth From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 01:28:45 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 In-Reply-To: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com>; from sethm@loomcom.com on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 10:03:50PM -0700 References: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20000612012845.R29500@mrbill.net> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 10:03:50PM -0700, sjm wrote: > Hey teen gang, > Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like > to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, > and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can > avoid it. > (P.S. - Plus, technically I'm kinda grey on whether the license I > have represents a "legitimate transfer of right to use" or not. > But since Ultrix is officially a deader-than-dead end-of-lifed > "These aren't the droids you're looking for; why don't you talk to > our nice Tru64 salespeople?" type of software, I don't really care :) > I just want to install the damn thing on a DECstation 5000/200) > (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. > But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of > mortal men.) > (P.P.P.S ...Or women.) > -Seth I've got a complete set of Ultrix 4.4 for DECstation (RISC) on TK50 tape, if anybody's interested in swapping VAX/VMS stuff for it.... Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 02:25:25 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? Message-ID: <20000612022525.U29500@mrbill.net> Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Mon Jun 12 12:39:10 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? Message-ID: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> In my experience great care is necessary with TK50 tapes.We bought a bunch original DEC tapes recently, but it was necessary to clean heads before reading every time. Wim ---------- > From: Bill Bradford > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: source for cheap TK50s? > Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 12:25 AM > > Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon Jun 12 06:41:17 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? References: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Sounds like the oxide is crapped out and starting to come off [on your heads!]. I ran across the same thing with a big box of HP cassettes--only about 6 out of 50 or so were even remotely usable [and they had been stored in the original storage boxes in reasonable environmental conditions for the last 20 years]. Doesn't bode well for the future of tape media. Craig W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > > In my experience great care is necessary with TK50 tapes.We bought a bunch > original DEC tapes recently, but it was necessary to clean heads before > reading every time. > > Wim > > ---------- > > From: Bill Bradford > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: source for cheap TK50s? > > Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 12:25 AM > > > > Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... > > > > Bill > > > > -- > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Jun 12 07:47:39 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Nostalgic Technophile/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: HP Sales literature available for postage. References: <4.3.0.20000324095136.0200b7a0@pc> Message-ID: <005201bfd46c$6b8e2f20$5081b7d1@kstumpf> I have copies of both internal and customer sales material about HP printers and other HP gear from the late 1980s and early 1990s. It weighs about 10lb. Please reply directly to me. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile - Unusual Systems www.nostalgictechnophile.com - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 08:39:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADEA@TEGNTSERVER> Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke maybe 2 or 3? -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Lane [mailto:kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 1:23 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: FW: Last chance for tapes > > > For those of us that have QIC tape drives, this fellow > has a bunch > of DC6525 tapes, most of them still in their shrink wrap. > > Please contact him directly if interested. > > -=-=- -=-=- > > In article <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net>, you say... > > > Subject: Last chance for tapes > > From: Jack LaBrecque > > Reply-To: JITB@postoffice.worldnet.att.net > > Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr, comp.sys.att, comp.periphs.scsi > > > > SONY QD6525N (Same as DC6525 from 3M) & 3M DDS-90 4mm. I > have 50-100 of > > each. Most are brand new and still in wrappers. Make me > an offer or > > they go to the dump. > > > > -- > > Semper Fi > > > > Jack L > > JITB's Home Page: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ > > JITB's USMC Page: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/usmc/usmc.htm > > PFC Edward A. Peterson: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ed/pete.htm > > > > > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies (http://www.bluefeathertech.com) > kyrrin [a-t] bluefeathertech {d=o=t} com > "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be > superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk) > From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Jun 12 08:41:03 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? That depends on what you mean by "possible". The DECmate II and (I presume, although I've not played with one) the III use Harris I/O support chips. The first thing you need to do to these chips after power-on is to configure their address. Consequently, there's a table of IOTs executed by the processor straight out of reset to get the job done. It should be possible to switch the addresses configured for the console port and the printer port in that table. The effect would be that the printer port would now be the console port and the terminal emulation in the slushware would now run the printer port. No, I've not tried this. Furthermore, every time I mention the possibility some pretty knowledgeable folks usually tell me it won't work. I don't see why it won't work. BTW, does anyone have a good archive of Lasner's rantings? We really need a good Lasner rantings archive somewhere on the net. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 12 08:58:52 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Reading old floppies In-Reply-To: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> References: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: mann@pa.dec.com (Tim Mann) To: trs80@cs.ubc.ca cc: m.krause@tu-harburg.de, jens@siliconsonic.de, norb@kcbbs.gen.nz, kim@breeze.org Subject: Reading old floppies with Catweasel Here's something that should be of interest to folks who have old TRS-80 disks they'd like to read but are having trouble doing it with modern hardware. Actually, it could be of interest to folks with disks from obscure old CP/M systems and the like too. A small company in Germany makes a specialized PC ISA card that, with the proper software, allows any kind of floppy disk to be read (and maybe written, too). The company is called Individual Computers, and the card is called the Catweasel ISA. There are also Amiga versions. See the following URLs for information on the card and how to order one: http://www.jschoenfeld.com/, and http://members.tripod.com/~apd2/catweasl.htm. Catweasel cards were in short supply for a while, and I had some trouble getting a working unit, but I have one now. I've just written a program for it that can copy any TRS-80 disk (in fact, any disk written by a WD177x/179x floppy disk controller, or by any PC floppy disk controller) to the DMK format that's used by David Keil's TRS-80 emulator for MS-DOS and by my TRS-80 emulator (xtrs) for Unix. The program auto-detects FM (single density) vs. MFM (double or high density) encoding, even on disks that have some sectors of each on the same track, like dual-boot Model I/III disks. My program (called cw2dmk, at least for now) works both on Linux and on MS-DOS or Windows 95/98, and I'll be releasing it in source code form after I've cleaned it up a little more. It's partly based on the Catweasel driver for Linux (see http://www.tu-harburg.de/~semk2104/cwfloppy/) written by Michael Krause. His driver works only with MS-DOS and Amiga formats, and only in double or high density, but it's nice because it lets Linux treat the disks as having real file systems on them that the kernel supports. My program only lets you make a disk image that works with an emulator. The original driver is GPL'ed, so my program will be too. I've already used the program to copy about 50 single density and "copy protected" TRS-80 disks that I got from Kim Watt to DMK format, and they all seem to work on xtrs. Even weird stuff like original TRSDOS 2.x single density disks with FA data address marks on the directory (which even PC's that can otherwise handle single density don't seem to be able to read), and games that do a WD17xx Read Track command and look for specific data in the gaps as part of their copy protection, were easy to read and the images work on xtrs. I haven't tried the images on David Keil's emulator yet, but I don't expect problems -- maybe a few minor ones with games that do especially strange things with the floppy disk controller. I did have to fix a couple of minor emulation inaccuracies (well, bugs) in xtrs to make a couple of the games boot. 8" disks should even work, though I haven't plugged in my 8" drive yet. I had no problems reading a 5.25" high density (1.2MB) disk, which looks identical to 8" double density at the controller interface, so I think true 8" will probably work on the first try. The program seems to work well already, but there are two things I'd still like to add: (1) Automatically detecting the type of drive you're using and guessing the number of tracks (35, 40, or 80) and number of sides on the media -- right now you have to tell the program this using command-line options, and (2) Writing the older .DSK (or JV3) format that Matthew Reed and Jeff Vavasour's TRS-80 emulators require, when the disk is not so "protected" that it can't be represented in that format. Those shouldn't be too hard once I get my next burst of energy. I'm hoping a few other TRS-80 folks will buy Catweasel cards now that this program is available. I don't get a commission or anything. :-) If you do (or are thinking about it) and want a copy of cw2dmk before I get around to putting it up on my Web page, let me know. Tim Mann tim.mann@compaq.com http://www.tim-mann.org Compaq Computer Corporation, Systems Research Center, Palo Alto, CA Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Jun 12 09:09:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADEA@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000612070925.00970890@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:39 12-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: >Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke >maybe 2 or 3? Contact the author of the original message and ask. I merely forwarded what I found on Usenet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 09:26:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The DECmate II and (I presume, although I've not played with one) the III > use Harris I/O support chips. The first thing you need to do to these > chips after power-on is to configure their address. Consequently, there's > a table of IOTs executed by the processor straight out of reset to get > the job done. It should be possible to switch the addresses configured True. > for the console port and the printer port in that table. The effect would > be that the printer port would now be the console port and the terminal > emulation in the slushware would now run the printer port. Will not work. > No, I've not tried this. Furthermore, every time I mention the possibility > some pretty knowledgeable folks usually tell me it won't work. I don't > see why it won't work. Simple, the slushware does the port to 5027based video and keycodes to ascii translations and terminal emulation. You would not want that inbetween a nominal serial port and the system while using a terminal. To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console requests are mapped to another port. the problem is that the 03/04 ports do not support the full set of standard IOTs for TTY and interrupts. the rest of the ports are even less like standard PDP-8 IO so you would at a minimum be designing a full set of slushware and IOTs. That is the crux of the Lasner ravings as to why a DECmate is not a PDP-8. It is a system that is largely pdp-8 in character because of a micro that executes most PDP-8 opcodes. However there is a holw class of PDP-8 things a decmate can't due to lack of buss access and the ability to interface to real PDP-8 peripherals (not easy to do threy cycle databreak using the CMOS CPU as a coopertive element). check UU.SE and also www.dbit.com the nickles directory. Allison From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Jun 12 09:47:36 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes References: <3.0.5.32.20000612070925.00970890@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <3944F808.D65FAE40@arrl.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > At 09:39 12-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: > > >Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke > >maybe 2 or 3? > > Contact the author of the original message and ask. I merely forwarded > what I found on Usenet. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies I've tried to contact the guy but no response. Someone may have already bought the lot. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Jun 12 09:55:43 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Hi: I'm not particularly good at C, so I'm trying to learn more as I add tape image support to Claus Guiloi's Altair Emulator. Anyway, I have a "C pointers" question regarding copying the tape bits to the emulator memory. Here's some pseudo code... //delcared in i8080.c MEMSIZE is virtual memory size in bytes uchar Mem [MEMSIZE]; BOOL ReadTape (PSTR pstrFileName) PSTR pstrBuffer ; //buffer for fread command // make sure the file exists //allocate memory to fit tape image length and load file //determine file type (BIN or HEX) //if BIN, make sure that the image fits into the emulator memory size if (iLength > MEMSIZE){ OkMessage (hWnd, "Program too big to fit in memory!", szTitleName) ; return FALSE; } // for binary, so get load address from user and copy to memory array addr=MsgBox("Enter load address"); //obviously wrong. but it's only pseudo code // make sure that (load address + file size) <=65535 // copy binary image to the emulator memory for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; return 0; This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? Thanks again for the help. Rich From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 10:03:09 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> > However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in > the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a > space program (regardless of the motivations for pursuing space). By and > large "mainstream" entities (ie business, banking, etc) do not "develop" > technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of computers, fax machines (which > were in vented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some > other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't > change their ways. I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote location predated the deployment of electricity. -dq From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 10:13:31 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 12 10:17:15 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Finds in Pittsburgh, PA Message-ID: For anyone local (or who can get here relatively easily) and would be interested in this .... I stopped by the Goodwill Computer Store over the weekend, and saw that they have a bunch (maybe two dozen) SPARCstation IPC's and IPX's, for which they are asking $25.00/each. The people in the store didn't know anything about their configurations (as they said, "We're pretty clueless about those boxes"....), so I don't know if they come with any memory or disk, and I didn't bother trying to open any of them up. Some appear to have graphics accelerators, though (based on looking at occupied Sbus slots on the back of the machine). There are also a couple of SPARCstation 1+ and SPARCstation 2 machines, in about the same price range, plus a about half a dozen HP/Apollo Series 700 machines for which they are asking $37.50. None of these machines appear to include any keyboards or mice. There are a few Sun monitors on the shelf, but they are being sold separately. To the best of my knowledge, the store does not ship, so you'd have to physically visit there to make a purchase. I don't know who you'd talk to there if you wanted to work out a "special deal" of some kind (e.g., purchasing several machines at once, for a lower price), since the day-to-day store staff do not have the authority to renegotiate prices. --Pat. From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 10:18:58 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com> > // copy binary image to the emulator memory > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > return 0; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented > by an array > of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. > My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? You could potentially get weird behavior that way. Some compilers do strange things converting signed to unsigned values. Try this instead: Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); or even: Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; for clarity. Note, I tend to go overboard with parens, I've seen a number of compilers and other programs which didn't do operator precedence correctly. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 12 10:29:19 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Fax machines [WAS: Re: In defense of NASA ...] Message-ID: <00bb01bfd482$fac03240$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights >> This is true of computers, fax machines (which >> were invented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some >> other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't >> change their ways. > >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >location predated the deployment of electricity. > >-dq > Unless there is "prior art" that I'm unaware of, Doug is off by a century. See http://www.thg.org.uk/articles.htm#FACSIMILE for a brief history of the development of fax technology. Cheers, Mark. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Jun 12 10:37:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <20000612153722.16642.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in > > the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a > > space program...large "mainstream" entities... do not "develop" > > technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of... fax machines > > (which were in vented in the 1700's BTW) > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. Think of Volta and his electric piles. Electricity generated by moving wires past magnets was a later development, but there was battery power in the 18th C. ISTR the device required an engraved copper plate for sending and synchronized pendula, one on each end of the transmission. I think the receiving paper was treated in some way to change color when exposed to an electric current. It wasn't very efficient, but to be able to transmit an image over a distance at all was quite a feat for its day. The practical application had to wait until the development of a national communications infrastructure. One of my favorite quotes from the telecommunications industry was a fellow who was chided for his enthusiasm about the new telephones. After all, we had the telegraph - who really needs to speak person-to-person all that badly. His (paraphrased) response: "The telephone is a wonderful device. I think at some point, every city will have one." -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 11:06:48 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) References: Message-ID: <20000612160153.41348.qmail@hotmail.com> They used to make internal hard drives for the Mac Plus that attached to the upper frame, to the side of the CRT. Someone probably kludged one into a SE case, not wanting to forego the all important second FD. I remember launching MacPaint on my Fatmac and having to swap out system disks ten or twelve times before I could doodle. Thank god for that external 400k drive, who would need more space? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:40 PM Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) > > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From ebrens at dds.nl Mon Jun 12 11:10:16 2000 From: ebrens at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:18:58AM -0400 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000612181016.A18863@stronghold.xs4all.nl> On Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:18:58AM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > things converting signed to unsigned values. Try this instead: > > Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); > > or even: > > Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; This is not correct, the pstrBuffer element you are referring to is not a pointer but an uchar. The correct line should be: Mem[addr+i] = (uchar) *(pstrBuffer+i); Good luck, Erik. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 12 11:24:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Finds in Pittsburgh, PA References: Message-ID: <39450EA7.A9E72157@rain.org> Pat Barron wrote: > > For anyone local (or who can get here relatively easily) and would be > interested in this .... > > I stopped by the Goodwill Computer Store over the weekend, and saw that > they have a bunch (maybe two dozen) SPARCstation IPC's and IPX's, for Is this the store in Southside? If so and I lived near Pittsburgh, I would make both it and the regular Goodwill store a few doors down regular stops! > purchasing several machines at once, for a lower price), since the > day-to-day store staff do not have the authority to renegotiate prices. Again, if we are talking about the same store, they did renegotiate prices when I was there. Of course, I did buy more than $1 or two worth of stuff "). From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 12 11:46:26 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) Did you want the number of iterations to be iLength, or iLength +1 (what you have there)? > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; Did you want to add i to the pointer and retrieve what the resulting pointer points to, or did you want to retrieve what the pointer points to, and then add i to that value? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Jun 12 12:26:33 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Fax Machines In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000612102544.0260c6d0@208.226.86.10> At 11:03 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >location predated the deployment of electricity. Get a copy of "The Secret Life of Machines", the FAX Machine episode. Really cool stuff. --Chuck From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Jun 12 18:14:44 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc Message-ID: Hello, A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From bwit at pobox.com Mon Jun 12 12:32:16 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> At 10:55 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: [snip] > >// copy binary image to the emulator memory >for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > return 0; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array >of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. >My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? > Hi Rich, A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); return(0); Regards, Bob From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 12:32:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > -dq You can't possibly be serious. Electricity was deployed in the late 1890s and by 1928 fairly widely. Allison From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 12:36:35 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <20000612181016.A18863@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000e01bfd494$c176f430$350810ac@chipware.com> > > Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); > > > > or even: > > > > Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; > > This is not correct, the pstrBuffer element you are referring to is not a > pointer but an uchar. What? In the context of his example, pstrBuffer is a pointer to a signed character. The trick is to cast that pointer to be a pointer to an unsigned character. Then you can dereference the pointer using either the asterix or the array index. > The correct line should be: > > Mem[addr+i] = (uchar) *(pstrBuffer+i); This will result in exactly the same potentially ambiguous behavior as his original example. The compiler will probably deref the pointer into a signed int with the twos complement sign bit extended into the higher bits. Then the fun begins. If it takes the signed int and (logically) converts it into an unsigned int and then tries to convert that to an unsigned char, you potentially wind up with a significant overflow. The behavior at this point is not well defined. You might get the desired answer, you might not. Depends on who implemented the compiler, what the target architecture is, etc. From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 12:46:19 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfd496$1da3a4f0$350810ac@chipware.com> > A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: > > memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); Or, if it's binary, why not read directly into Mem and skip the extra buffer all together. Something like: fread (Mem + addr, 1, iLength, pFile); From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 12 12:48:58 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01bfd496$7d5ddeb0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old > style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I > don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick > adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. > -- Gary Hildebrand I don't have the pinouts but can reverse engineer a cable I have for a Sony 14" VGA/multiscan ca.1988. The monitor has a db 15 female connector in the back, plus the appropriate cable, sounds like what you have. John A. (away from Home) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 12 12:50:13 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Jun 12, 2000 05:14:44 PM Message-ID: <200006121750.LAA30491@calico.litterbox.com> Any good mac dealer should have adapters to do this. Do be aware that older mac monitors are often fixed frequency, so make sure the config your friend is using is right for the monitor. > > Hello, > > A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old > style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I > don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick > adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 12 12:12:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. > Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. As far as I know, the first facsimile machine was invented in around 1826 (there was a nice little article about it in the back of Success magazine [of all places] over a year ago). Napolean supposedly deployed them all around Europe so that he could distribute intelligence and battle plans fast and efficiently. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 13:19:41 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bain's machine was dated 1842, commercial service began at Paris, 1863. I think NYU law school has some interesting bits on the early fax service. On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > > > It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. > > Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. > > As far as I know, the first facsimile machine was invented in around 1826 > (there was a nice little article about it in the back of Success magazine > [of all places] over a year ago). > > Napolean supposedly deployed them all around Europe so that he could > distribute intelligence and battle plans fast and efficiently. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Jun 12 13:18:39 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Simple, the slushware does the port to 5027based video and keycodes to >ascii translations and terminal emulation. You would not want that >inbetween a nominal serial port and the system while using a terminal. > >To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console >requests are mapped to another port. Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 12 13:21:25 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) Message-ID: I have a mac plus in my collection that has something called a Hyperdrive installed in it. It's a controller card and MFM hard drive that fits behind the crt and everything actually just fits. Mine amazingly still works. Unless it was a special configuration, there was no such thing as a dual floppy SE with a hard drive. In a message dated Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:10:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Jason McBrien" writes: << They used to make internal hard drives for the Mac Plus that attached to the upper frame, to the side of the CRT. Someone probably kludged one into a SE case, not wanting to forego the all important second FD. I remember launching MacPaint on my Fatmac and having to swap out system disks ten or twelve times before I could doodle. Thank god for that external 400k drive, who would need more space? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:40 PM Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) > > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > >> From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 14:14:23 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Fax Machines References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000612102544.0260c6d0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000612190928.85285.qmail@hotmail.com> Do you know where to get these? I've only seen TSLOM on the Discovery channel, and they haven't played them in years. Nothing comes up on any internet searches, either. Damn BBC. While I'm at it, anyone remember an old Live from Off Center PBS show that featured a single, half hour long Rube Goldberg contraption? It was in a dark wharehouse and they taped it as some sort of performance art peice. It rocked, and I can't find any info on it. Thanks! -Jason McBrien ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: Fax Machines > At 11:03 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > >location predated the deployment of electricity. > > Get a copy of "The Secret Life of Machines", the FAX Machine episode. > Really cool stuff. > --Chuck > > From red at bears.org Mon Jun 12 14:37:25 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000611234157.31223.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 11 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > > the older GCR-type disks. > > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs wouldn't either. I'll have to see if I can remember where I read that and refresh my memory. ok r. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 12 14:34:55 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at Jun 12, 2000 10:55:43 AM Message-ID: <200006121934.PAA07647@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Cini, Richard once stated: > > Hi: > > I'm not particularly good at C, so I'm trying to learn more as I add > tape image support to Claus Guiloi's Altair Emulator. > > Anyway, I have a "C pointers" question regarding copying the tape > bits to the emulator memory. Here's some pseudo code... > > //delcared in i8080.c MEMSIZE is virtual memory size in bytes [ snipped --- NOTE: ``//'' is NOT a valid ANSI C comment delimeter, but some C compilers will accept it] I would be inclined to do the following: #include #include #define MAXSIZE 65536L #ifndef FALSE # define FALSE 0 #endif #ifndef TRUE # define TRUE !FALSE #endif typedef size_t i8080addr; int ReadTape (char *filename,void *dest,size_t maxsize); i8080addr AskLoadAddress (void); unsigned char Mem [MEMSIZE]; /* code ... */ loadaddr = AskLoadAddress(); if (loadaddr >= MAXSIZE) /* too large of an address */ return(FALSE); rc = ReadTape(filename,Mem+loadaddr,MAXSIZE - loadaddr); if (rc == FALSE) return(rc); /* rest of code */ Basically, read the file directly into the 8080 virtual memory space. Saves moving it around afterwards. But for your original question reguarding: > uchar Mem [MEMSIZE]; > PSTR pstrBuffer ; //buffer for fread command > // copy binary image to the emulator memory > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array > of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. > My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? The right hand side looks suspicious so I might make it read: for (i = 0 ; i < iLength ; i++) Mem[i + addr] = (uchar) (*(pstrBuffer + i)); Arrays are zero based, so an array that is 10 elements long uses indicies from 0 to 9, so your original code would write one too many bytes (and may or may not crash the program, depending upon the system). -spc (Have C compiler, will program) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 14:42:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF5@TEGNTSERVER> Ok, at least three people have questioned my remark, so I'd like to restate it. I was going to let it pass, but here goes. An article in an old issue of Radio Electronics, which was a construction article using surplus equipment, made the remark that fax'es weren't a new invention (new meaning 50's-60's) but that Toshiba had built and sold them in Japan since 1928. I posted this remark as a reply to someone who said that the facsimile machine had been invented in the 1700s. I found this difficult to believe as I would have thought that an electrical infrastructure would have been a necessary requirement. I was corrected on this. For anyone who misread my message and got instead that I thought electricity had been deployed after 1928 needs to go back to school and learn English all over again. Of course, if we were talking about Arkansas, I do believe the fax machine is older than Arkansas having electricty. Any Black Oak fans out there? :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 1:33 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > > > -dq > > You can't possibly be serious. Electricity was deployed in > the late 1890s > and by 1928 fairly widely. > > Allison > > From bwit at pobox.com Mon Jun 12 14:58:34 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <000f01bfd496$1da3a4f0$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000612145834.008f7cc0@ruffboy.com> At 01:46 PM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: >> A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: >> >> memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); > >Or, if it's binary, why not read directly into Mem and >skip the extra buffer all together. Something like: > >fread (Mem + addr, 1, iLength, pFile); > I agree. I was going to suggest that but the original code didn't show reading the data in so I didn't know if additional checks were being made to insure it was valid before placing it in "memory". Regards, Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:05:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <003301bfd286$6d211b00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 9, 0 08:48:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/700681e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:09:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 9, 0 10:57:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 812 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/bfe2705f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:45:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 9, 0 07:10:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 793 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/8042437f/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 12 15:04:40 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series Message-ID: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Well, today I walked by the auto labs in mech engr and found that they had finally finished dismantling this very old combustion/emissions test rig, and the HP1000 computer that ran the whole show had not been hauled away yet. Somebody had laid a claim on it two weeks ago, but since it's so long already and they haven't showed up, the person who handled the decomissioning gave it to me. I have not been able to open the front panel latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know what's in the front card cage; all I know is that there are seven cards, four at the botton and three at the top. In the back cage there are three jumper cards, two 12821A disk interfaces,one "time base generator card", and four cards marked "BACI 12966A" where most of the control I/O was apparently done. There are two big cards below the main card cage, but I haven't got to them yet. I also got several cables; two of them obviously connected the disk interface cards to an HPIB device (an HP 7946 tape drive also came in the lot), while others went to the test rig, and yet another seemed to go to a PC being used as a terminal. Unfortunately, I don't know where the cables were originally connected, as somebody had already pulled all cables off the computer. The machine is very, very dirty; not surprising considering where it came from (a car shop). The fans are full of oil-impregnated dust. I don't plan to power it up until I know more about it. They tell me that it was still functional about three years ago. Apparently nobody has touched it since. So, does anybody have any info on the power supply of this thing so I can test it before applying power to the cards? And, where did the console go in this machine? Best regards, carlos. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:14:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 10, 0 00:25:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2049 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/6095fa59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:47:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 9, 0 11:19:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 959 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/b26a8944/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:21:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 10, 0 01:06:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/77d50e12/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:56:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <002901bfd283$911b56e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 9, 0 08:28:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/4f79177c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:50:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 10, 0 11:40:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1081 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/1ea56928/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:55:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 10, 0 08:54:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/f28e256c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:57:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: <200006101709.KAA07198@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 10, 0 10:09:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/336fe992/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 14:05:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 10, 0 01:39:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/f4ac2817/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 15:15:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization > table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that > goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? Stag is yet another company that no longer keeps any documentation around for their products that are more than a few years old. :-( Is it me, or is is strange, and ridiculous, that many computer and electronic equipment manufacturers don't even keep documentation around, not even for historical purposes, for more than a few years? It would make perfect sense for most companies in the computer and electronics field to replace all the "Inc."s with "Sales Corporation", since all they're obviously interested in is sales, not product quality or durability. ...well, they do talk about complying with that ISO9xxx "quality" lunacy, but we all know that's nothing more than a marketing gimmick to drive up prices and drive yet another stake in the coffin of individuality in the name of conformity. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 12 15:21:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Jun 12, 2000 03:37:25 PM Message-ID: <200006122021.NAA18724@shell1.aracnet.com> > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. PowerMac's just plain have problems with floppies. Last October I needed to read all my Mac floppies in and make disk images. I set up a 68k based Mac to do it, the speed difference is amazing. One would think the PowerMac would always be faster than a 68k Mac, but when it comes to reading or writing floppies you're best off using a 68k Mac if you've got any amount to do! Of course the reason I was making the disk images is so I could put them on CD-R, as my G4/450 didn't come with a floppy. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 12 15:34:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 12, 2000 08:05:39 PM Message-ID: <200006122034.NAA23861@shell1.aracnet.com> > > < R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer > > electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and > > meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being > > forcibly escorted out of the store. > > > > > Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to > > As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have, indeed, dismantled > consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of > the shop). Tony, Here in the country of stupid lawsuits and 'Super Stores' you'd probably be kicked out of the store for just suggesting it! In fact I got kicked out of a Bookstore on Saturday, they wouldn't let me even buy the books I had in my hand, all because someone had driven a car into the doorframe of the one entrance. Shoot in someplaces around here you'd be pushing your luck if you wanted to open the box to make sure all the pieces were in there. Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 16:23:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Fax Machines In-Reply-To: <20000612190928.85285.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Do you know where to get these? I've only seen TSLOM on the Discovery > channel, and they haven't played them in years. Nothing comes up on any > internet searches, either. Damn BBC. http://www.islandnet.com/~ianc/med/slom.html > While I'm at it, anyone remember an old Live from Off Center PBS show that > featured a single, half hour long Rube Goldberg contraption? It was in a > dark wharehouse and they taped it as some sort of performance art peice. It > rocked, and I can't find any info on it. Thanks! I remember that, and I wish I knew how to get a copy. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mrdos at swbell.net Mon Jun 12 16:46:14 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus Message-ID: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus property to the public? Thanks, Owen From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 16:49:03 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know if the UK stuff is different, but the WD40 I've seen seems > to leave a waxy deposit (probably just very thick oils/greases) on the > metal. I think it is just the old lubricant residue. > I don't know if this comes from the WD40, or if it's due to some > reaction between the WD40 and the old lubricant, or what, but it makes a > right mess of small mechnaisms, and it's non-trivial to get rid of. When I rebuild radio dynamotors, I always repack the bearings with synthetic lubricants. The time consuming job of the operation is getting the old crap out of the bearings. WD-40 works like a charm, but yes, I run into the residue, and I would rather not use a whole can of the stuff for each bearing! Acetone works well to get the rest of the stuff out. I put a little acetone in small cup and dip the bearings. The gunk comes right out and floats on the surface. It is indeed waxy. Be careful around plastics, of course. And for those that think this is Off Topic, remember that those of us with card readers and punches will have to go thru the motor rebuild process sooner or later (preferrably sooner). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 16:45:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006122034.NAA23861@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 12, 0 01:34:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/80845350/attachment.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Jun 12 16:57:09 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <39451665.20656.6BF7FF@localhost> I've never heard of that before. I know that UH, UT and Rice hold auctions to sell off old computers from time to time. One auction at Rice is open to people in the University first and what's left over is then offered to the public. Don't know for sure about any places in D/FW. David On 12 Jun 2000, at 16:46, Owen Robertson wrote: > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about > surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are > required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal > Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of > anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in > the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus > property to the public? > > Thanks, > Owen > > ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 12 17:06:21 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Owen Robertson wrote: > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about surplus > property, and they said that all Texas Universities are required to turn > their old computers over to the Texas Criminal Justice (or something like > that) Department. Has anyone else heard of anything like this, or know why > they have to do this? Does anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any > Universities that sell surplus property to the public? My guess would be, that any such requirement would be on public (state-funded) universities only. I can't imagine any way a state would be able to, for all intents and purposes, seize the property of a private university. So, you might try finding schools that aren't state-funded, and see if you can buy surplus from them. Another snag you might run into is the problem with funding agencies. When I was at Carnegie-Mellon, I worked on a DoD-sponsored research project. We never surplussed *anything*, and we never threw anything away (at least, in the 2.5 years that I was there). The reason was, that our funding agency (who had paid for all of our hardware) required that, if we wanted to surplus something, we had to first go through a process to put it on a list to offer it to other government agencies. Only after the equipment had been on this list for several months, with no interest from any other agencies, could we dispose of it. We were told at the time that the estimated time from deciding to surplus something, until we were actually permitted to do so (assuming that it was not snapped up by another agency in the meantime), was at least 12 months. --Pat. From g at kurico.com Mon Jun 12 17:38:56 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <39452030.32417.1035EA8A@localhost> Unfortunately this is true. All Texas public universities are required to let the convicts bang on any excess computer inventory (something to do with rehab programs to teach them how to repair computers). The sad thing is that _anything_ marked as a computer goes there, including things that they'd have no idea what to do with (i.e. anything other than a pc). I'm in the process of trying to find out what happens on the back end to stuff that they don't use (I hear they go to state contracted scrappers :( ). This all started towards the latter part of last year. I lucked out and was able to pick up an Intel iPSC because the things were marked as "power supply cabinets". Truely a sad state of affairs, I saw a Connections Machines and several RS/6000's at A&M destined to become a weapon for a prisoner. George > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about > surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are > required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal > Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of > anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in > the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus > property to the public? > > Thanks, > Owen > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 19:03:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 12, 0 05:49:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2026 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/32d9b276/attachment.ksh From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 19:27:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... Message-ID: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> If anybody ever asked me what cars could be compared to classic computers, this is what I'd pick out: System: TI-99/4A Car equivalent: DMC Delorean Reason: It looks like a Delorean, & is about as flawed. System: Original Apple Macintosh Car equivalent: Any Saturn Reason: Way back when, Apple wanted to make you think that you were the wise consumer. Saturn does the same. System: Altair 8800 Car equivalent: Ford Model "T" Reason: If you can't figure this one out, hang up your mouse on the way out. System: Commodore 64 Car equivalent: 1957 Chevy Reason: Name anybody who didn't have one of these when they were out! (both the car or the system, that is) System: Apple /// Car equivalent: Yugo Reason: None required. System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! System: IBM PC Jr. Car equivalent: Edsel Reason: See "Apple ///" System: Apple Macintosh II Car equivalent: Mack Truck Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. System: Commodore Amiga Car equivalent: Any Lexus Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise with its comparison. System: Apple LISA Car equivalent: Rolls Royce Reason: Self-explanitory. Got anything to add? I'd like to see what you guys can come up with? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 12 19:31:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006130031.RAA11737@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I normally soak ball races, etc in petrol (best) or paraffin (safer, but Hi For us yanks, paraffin is what we call kerosene, not the stuff we make candles from. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 19:56:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Jun 13, 0 00:27:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/06e03caf/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Mon Jun 12 20:06:44 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, no... The Delorean was supposed to be fast. The TI-99/4a was about > the slowest home computer ever. The Delorean was supposed to be fast, but wasn't. Sounds right to me! (: ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 20:03:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: <200006130031.RAA11737@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jun 12, 0 05:31:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/e1984db8/attachment.ksh From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 20:26:50 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: wiring for MMJ cable to connect VT320 to VAX VLC Message-ID: <20000612202650.A29500@mrbill.net> I need to connect a VT320 to a VAXstation 4000-VLC; anybody know the correct wiring scheme (straight-thru, twisted, null-modem?) for the MMJ cable to do so? I dont have a MMJ cable handy so I'm gonna multilate a normal phone cable and some normal RJ11 heads.... bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 16:28:10 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: nearly classic digital DECpc XL 466dx2 In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200006130131.VAA13322@smtp13.bellglobal.com> From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 21:00:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > System: Apple /// > Car equivalent: Yugo > Reason: None required. Actually, an IBM type PC running MS-Windows (particularly the new cheap PC hardware) is more like a Yugo: cheap, poorly designed, an accident waiting to happen. > System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 > Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT > Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! Ford made more powerful cars than the mustang in the lats 1960's, such as the Shelby cobra and other cars with the 425 horsepower big-block engines in them. > System: IBM PC Jr. > Car equivalent: Edsel > Reason: See "Apple ///" The Edsel wasn't popular, but it was well designed; a very nice car and ahead of its time. Comparing this beautiful car to a PC Jr. is most unfair. > System: Apple Macintosh II > Car equivalent: Mack Truck > Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. An IBM 7090 is closer to a Mack truck... or, perhaps a Peterbilt. > System: Commodore Amiga > Car equivalent: Any Lexus > Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise > with its comparison. I wouldn't pay 50-cents for a Lexus, and if I won one as a prize, I'd sell it to someone gullible and buy a used Ford F250 truck. > System: Apple LISA > Car equivalent: Rolls Royce > Reason: Self-explanitory. A Rolls Royce (well, some of the older ones anyuway) is a thing of beauty. A PDP-11/70 with it's blinking lights, or a PERQ workstation which is far superior to that overrated LISA thing. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 12 20:58:11 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series (more) References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <39459533.41387530@cornell.edu> Ok, the power supply is fine. I put back together everything and turned the thing on; the "pwr fail" led was lit ("uh oh" was going through my mind), but then I hit the "halt" and some other buttons in the front panel and that light went away. All buttons seem to be responsive. I really need to know where to plug a serial console to this thing... Tomorrow I'll try connecting the combination hd/tape drive that came with it. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 18:26:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: <007101bfd4d5$cda505d0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >>To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console >>requests are mapped to another port. > >Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization >table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that >goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. Well read on. I did say that the existant trapping ports 03/04 (603x and 604x) that corospond to nominal PDP-8 console are also incomplete and cannot fall into the interrupt skip chain as a nominal TTY (m-series) module would. Sure revised slushware can fix some ills but, not all. Add to that the printer and COM ports are using devices that are also off the PDP-8 track. It really ends up that despite slushware the hardware is enough odd that standard PDP-8 code (aka OS/8 and programming handbook examples) do not work or have to be modifed from the source code side like OS/278 was. Impossible, no. Reasonable, I don't think so. I've played with the 6100 and 6120 enough to know it's just enough different from PDP-8 that it does make a difference with IO and most peripherals. Still, it's usability and perfomance as a hybrid is nothing to ignore. For those interested in programming the PDP-8 like 6120 it's a great platform to see how a simple machine is anything but. For my $.02 finding a tube (vr201 or any monochrome monitor) and a DEC keyboard are not that bug a challenge as they were widely used on rainbow, pro and terminals. Making the cable used is also not that hard. If there was any hack at all that is worth adding it's the real reset button I have on mine. Saves power cycling. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 18:14:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <007001bfd4d5$ccd532b0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >For anyone who misread my message and got instead that >I thought electricity had been deployed after 1928 >needs to go back to school and learn English all over >again. >> > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >> > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >> > location predated the deployment of electricity. >> > >> > -dq ;) In these days of the PC retrorevionist history of computers who knew? It's the comma splice, that did it! Because of how you constructed the sentence, the date, "1928" was juxtaposed between toshiba and deployment of electricity. I hope my grammer was suitably twisted. Seriously it really wasn't clear enough that there were two distinct though realted ideas there. Allison From west at tseinc.com Mon Jun 12 21:38:17 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <000901bfd4e0$6ee49460$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... > I have not been able to open the front panel > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > what's in the front card cage; Memory subsystem. > all I know is that there > are seven cards, four at the botton and three at the top. > In the back cage there are three jumper cards Jumper cards continue the interrupt priority chain in the backplane. If your OS is interrupt driven, you need the jumpers for open slots. If your OS isn't interrupt driven, you don't need these. > two 12821A disk > interfaces Disk interface, HP-IB variety ISTR >one "time base generator card" This card provides timing to the OS or any program that wants timed intervals. > and four > cards marked "BACI 12966A" where most of the control > I/O was apparently done. BACI boards are serial cards. > There are two big cards > below the main card cage, but I haven't got to them > yet. Motherboard and the one below that if I understand you right is firmware. > I also got several cables; two of them obviously > connected the disk interface cards to an HPIB > device (an HP 7946 tape drive also came in the lot), > while others went to the test rig, and yet another > seemed to go to a PC being used as a terminal. > Unfortunately, I don't know where the cables were > originally connected, as somebody had already pulled > all cables off the computer. Most typically in this system, the OS was genned for each card in a certain slot. If the card positions have been changed the OS generally won't boot. If you moved the cards, you have to regen the OS. Most likely the system console was the baci board that was lowest in the backplane, as this one would have the highest priority. If it was running RTE, ISTR there is way to boot the system that tells it that the configuration has changed and where the console and disk are. If this matches your situation, drop me an email and I'll look it up for you. > So, does anybody have any info on the power supply of this > thing so I can test it before applying power to the > cards? And, where did the console go in this machine? I have a fair amount of info on the E series, as do others on the list. Let me know if you need anything... Jay West From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:00:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > System : IBM PC + clones > Car : Ford > Reason : You find them everywhere. They do the job, but nothing particularly > nice about them. Tony, didn't you mean to say Chevy instead of Ford? Actually, when equipped with MS-Windows, a Yugo is a better comparison. As the owner of an older Mercury, a Ford product, I can in no way compare this to an IBM type PC; likewise for another Ford I drive on occasion: large, solidly built (was like a tank when new, about 26 years ago), reliable, smooth-riding, etc. I'm guessing that as a comparison, you're going by the small Fords sold in England, which can't compare to, let's say, a 1972 Mercury Grand Marquis, or a late model Crown Victoria, etc. > System : Fast Pentium-based PC-clone > Car : Turbocharged Ford with go-faster stripes, etc > Reason : It goes like the clappers, but underneath it's still the same > old machine. Nothing 'interesting' about it. See above. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:14:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have, indeed, dismantled > consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of > the shop). If the average consumer these days was reasonably intelligent, stores would be forced to have models on display that were open, or disassembled, so that one could see the insides, etc. I recall when stores typically had things like washing machine models on display with cases that were partially clear so that one could see the insides. At one Radio Shack, the cover was removed from a tuner that was on display. It wasn't at all unusual to see demo models on display in stores that were either partially disassembled or had see-through panels in them. I also recall seeing ads in magazines that showed the insides of things, in rather good detail, from consumer appliances like vacuum cleaners to hi-fi equipment, and had lines pointing to certain components, etc. These days, I guess the safest solution is to buy something, disassemble it thoroughly at home, then put it back together carefully and return it if you don't like what you discovered. If you had to break any "warranty void if opened" seals, and someone at the store notices this, just use that as the excuse for returning it, that someone (you don't have to say it was you!) tampered with it, and you don't want to risk buying another one from that store. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 22:31:27 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > choose, right?). Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my partner and I) assume full liability. A real-life story: Previously, we owned a trophy/awards/engraving shop. One day Mrs. Mom and her three children came in looking for a ten-dollar trophy. While I was taking her order, Junior (about ten years old) knocked a $300 crystal figurine off of a shelf, onto the floor, smashing it to bits. I asked the child to leave it alone, but as I was fetching a broom Mom told Junior to "clean up that mess" and he grabbed a handful of glass, severely cutting himself. End result: lawsuit filed, insurance carrier settled out of court, insurance company jacked up our premiums, and we're out a $300 piece of crystal. I couldn't complain, because that was the cheapest way out of the situation. So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in *my store*! Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:42:50 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Craig Smith wrote: > Sounds like the oxide is crapped out and starting to come off [on your > heads!]. I ran across the same thing with a big box of HP > cassettes--only about 6 out of 50 or so were even remotely usable [and > they had been stored in the original storage boxes in reasonable > environmental conditions for the last 20 years]. Doesn't bode well for > the future of tape media. Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the safest solution. ...but storage of data onto multiple hard drives and backed up regularly onto two different types of modern media (e.g. 4mm and 8mm cartridges), and changing to a new type of media before what was being used becomes obsolete, is the safest bet. Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of deteriorating media that we need to use with our older computer systems. At this point, fortunately, many forms of media, although becoming expensive, such as 8" floppies, are still available. Has compaq stopped the manufacture of many forms of DEC media that were available in the recent past? Interestingly, I've been able to read DC300 cartridges from around 1982, yet, I've had a copy of one tape, copied onto a relatively new DC300XL cartriodge, go bad: the tape stuck together and then was torn apart. :-( -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 22:44:18 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: Hey Tony: > At some surplus shops, the owner was quite happy for me to pull cases > from machines, like PCs, before buying one to see what cards were in it. > But not to dismantle it any further. The owner provided the tools as well. The UK must be a paradise compared to the states. If I let customers use my tools I would never get any work done, due to a lack of tools! More than once someone's taken CD-ROM software, leaving the empty jewel case behind. Once someone even stole a mouse from a system we had on display . . . reached around the back and unplugged it . . . please do me a favor and advise me as to emigration requirements . . . ;>) Glen 0/0 From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 18:50:06 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: DECpc XL 466dx2 - almost classic. In-Reply-To: <000901bfd4e0$6ee49460$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <200006130352.XAA07225@smtp13.bellglobal.com> Excuse for the blank email. That is very strange because did send out this mesage already typed. Sigh! Got pentium 90 processor card or Alpha card for it? Model: 775ww Thanks! Can trade the IBM 90 XP parts for this one. Wizard From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 23:00:31 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act Message-ID: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> Hey Tony: > ARD : 'If any part is missing or damaged then I intend to return it here > and now for a cash refund under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act. This is really off-topic for the list so feel free to reply directly to my e-mail address -- I'd like to know your (and the group's) opinion: What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. Please advise. Glen 0/0 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Jun 12 23:20:33 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport Message-ID: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> This is semi-OT, since the IIsi has two years to go before it's on topic :-) For a Commodore nut, I sure seem to be doing a steady traffic in Apples. >From the same place I got the SE/30 and the IIgs ROM 3, I also picked up a IIsi. After some cursing because it was set up with At UnEase, I rigged a boot disk, trashed AE and started poking around. It's an '030 with 5MB RAM running System 7.1. I'm finally seeing value in the tuition I pay to Loma Linda University, since I basically went to the System Folder on all their System 7 Macs and grabbed all the extensions and control panels. Surprisingly, at least to me (the systems in question were 7.5 or later), this seemed to work EXCEPT for OpenTransport. PC Exchange purrs like a kitten and I'm able to handle ProDOS and DOS like a pro. (By the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be bootable?) But the IIsi simply refuses to mount OT. I downloaded 1.0.8 from the Apple support site and tried that, but it simply said it could not be installed on this particular model and gave no further explanation. The readme asserts that it will run on '030s and 7.1, though, for all the versions available from asu.info.apple.com. However, they appear to be updates, not installs (except for 1.0.8, the 1.1.x versions say that 1.1 must be installed already). Simply copying the libraries and the Shared Library Manager into the Extensions folder doesn't work. It just ignores them, and when I try to start the TCP/IP or AppleTalk control panels, it whines that OT is not running. Copying fresh ones from the "uninstallable" install disk doesn't do any good either. Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 23:25:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> Message-ID: > What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a > catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 23:29:08 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I normally soak ball races, etc in petrol (best) or paraffin (safer, but > not so good) to get the old lubricant out. The main ingredient of WD-40, Stoddard solvent, is a form of paraffin (kerosene). > I never run an 'unknown' motor or mechanical device without checking the > lubrication and probably replacing it. I remember the comment in the BRPE > service manual 'running this punch for 10 seconds without lubrication > will ruin it' or words to that effect. Oil/grease are a lot cheaper than > mechancial parts! The grease and oil on some of these punches/readers is creeping up on 40 years old. It just isn't any good anymore, even if it "looks OK". Most fans, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 00:04:51 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > System: Apple /// > > Car equivalent: Yugo > > Reason: None required. > > Actually, an IBM type PC running MS-Windows (particularly the new > cheap PC hardware) is more like a Yugo: cheap, poorly designed, an > accident waiting to happen. > > > System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 > > Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT > > Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! > > Ford made more powerful cars than the mustang in the lats 1960's, such > as the Shelby cobra and other cars with the 425 horsepower big-block > engines in them. > > > System: IBM PC Jr. > > Car equivalent: Edsel > > Reason: See "Apple ///" > > The Edsel wasn't popular, but it was well designed; a very nice car > and ahead of its time. Comparing this beautiful car to a PC Jr. is > most unfair. A Mercury in a horse collar! - don > > System: Apple Macintosh II > > Car equivalent: Mack Truck > > Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. > > An IBM 7090 is closer to a Mack truck... or, perhaps a Peterbilt. > > > System: Commodore Amiga > > Car equivalent: Any Lexus > > Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise > > with its comparison. > > I wouldn't pay 50-cents for a Lexus, and if I won one as a prize, I'd > sell it to someone gullible and buy a used Ford F250 truck. > > > System: Apple LISA > > Car equivalent: Rolls Royce > > Reason: Self-explanitory. > > A Rolls Royce (well, some of the older ones anyuway) is a thing of beauty. > A PDP-11/70 with it's blinking lights, or a PERQ workstation which is > far superior to that overrated LISA thing. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 00:13:38 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > > choose, right?). > > Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent > enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the > States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for > insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work > -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my > partner and I) assume full liability. > > A real-life story: Previously, we owned a trophy/awards/engraving shop. One > day Mrs. Mom and her three children came in looking for a ten-dollar trophy. > While I was taking her order, Junior (about ten years old) knocked a $300 > crystal figurine off of a shelf, onto the floor, smashing it to bits. I > asked the child to leave it alone, but as I was fetching a broom Mom told > Junior to "clean up that mess" and he grabbed a handful of glass, severely > cutting himself. > > End result: lawsuit filed, insurance carrier settled out of court, insurance > company jacked up our premiums, and we're out a $300 piece of crystal. I > couldn't complain, because that was the cheapest way out of the situation. If a few, or more, insurance companies would not cop out on such cases - the mother was clearly culpable - this kind of crap would not go on! - don > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > *my store*! > > Glen > 0/0 > From paulrsm at ameritech.net Tue Jun 13 00:14:03 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport Message-ID: <20000613051709.QNSW2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport > Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:20 AM > > (By the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be bootable?) The boot sector, PRODOS, and a system program, usually BASIC.SYSTEM. Be careful transferring files from the Mac to ProDOS. Often the Mac will create a forked file which ProDOS 8 cannot handle. I use a program to make them ProDOS 8 compatible before the transfer. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 00:17:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: References: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: >Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps >periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the >safest solution. ...but storage of data onto multiple hard drives and >backed up regularly onto two different types of modern media (e.g. 4mm >and 8mm cartridges), and changing to a new type of media before what >was being used becomes obsolete, is the safest bet. 4mm and 8mm are nothing but *SHORT TERM* storage. Plus, while it's not big problem with 8mm from what I've seen, with 4mm you'd best know what model drive that 4mm was written on! DLT's might cost an arm and a leg, but they're worth it if you're archiving data, and even they need to be refreshed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:44:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000613054400.15062.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. In that regard, the IIci is only barely a '90s Mac. IIRC it came out +/- three months of when the SE/30 did. But I think all 68k-based Macs except very early and perhaps very late ones could handle 800K. Certainly all of the Quadras and Centrises that I've used had no problem with it, but I didn't ever have occasion to use the last few 68K models. Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:48:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000613054840.15093.qmail@brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > IIRC an EPP port gives you 8 data lines, which is no way enough to talk > to an 11/45 front panel (there are 18 data/address input switches, 18 EPP gets you eight data signals, a R/W* line, an address strobe, and a data strobe. It's equivalent to a multiplexed-address-and-data peripheral bus. So you can hang basically as many I/O signals off it as you're willing to wire up. There's even a signal that can be used as an interrupt input. The nice part is that the "SuperIO" sort of chipsets do all the handshaking for you, so if you want to write a 0x32 to EPP device register 0x2a, all you have to do is two write cycles. No bit-banging of the control lines or handshake inputs required. It's pretty handy. The only annoying part is the need for the EPP device to generate a transfer acknowledge signal. I would have been slightly happier if they spec'd a standard default cycle time, and required the peripheral to assert a wait signal if it couldn't complete the transfer that quickly. That would allow for very simple devices with less logic. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:52:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> (message from Carlos Murillo on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:04:40 -0400) References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20000613055231.15127.qmail@brouhaha.com> Carlos wrote about an HP 1000 E-series: > I have not been able to open the front panel > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > what's in the front card cage; One of the screws behind the front panel "flange", when removed, will cause the panel latch assembly to fall to the bottom of the machine, and the front panel to flop open. It is then a simple matter to remove the lock and take it to a locksmith to either get a key made or get it rekeyed. It's also very easy to reassemble. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 01:05:06 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (rdd@smart.net) References: Message-ID: <20000613060506.15231.qmail@brouhaha.com> R. D. Davis wrote: > Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps > periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the > safest solution. If you're looking for long-term archival storage, 1/2" magtape is NOT it. Even of tapes written to good quality media (e.g., the 3M Blackwatch 700 someone here praised a while back), I've found some that were written only seven years ago and stored in a suitably climate- controlled area that can't be read now. And others on cheap tape stored in a garage for 25 years that read fine. The longevity of the media is far too unpredictable. IMHO, the only thing that makes sense today is to write archives to CD-R (with a gold reflective layer, not the shoddy silver stuff), and plan to recopy it to newer (and possibly more modern) media within 20 years. Kodak did a study of their CD-R media (the white paper is available on their web site somewhere), and with accelerated aging tests found that they could *conservatively* rate their media for 100 year data retention. They did point out, however, that accelerated aging does not necessarily accurately model all failure mechansims. However, it should still be quite reasonable to expect a substantial portion of that, so even someone as paranoid about it as I am should still be able to expect 10-20 years. I also wouldn't trust any old cheapo CD-R media even if it does have a gold reflective layer. The name brand stuff is *significantly* better in terms of error rates. I'd probably write at least two different copies of any valuable data on two different name brands of CD-R media, and then verify them is several CD-ROM drives. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 01:11:11 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (rdd@smart.net) References: Message-ID: <20000613061111.15301.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote (about CD-R longevity): > However, it should still be quite > reasonable to expect a substantial portion of that, so even someone as > paranoid about it as I am should still be able to expect 10-20 years. I forgot to mention that since CD-R (used as CD-ROM format for data storage) has three levels of error correction, and any failure mechanisms are unlikely to result in an abrupt failure (yesterday the media was fine, and today it won't read at all), you can also assess the quality of the archive discs at any time. Of course, normally CD-ROM drives don't tell you about corrected errors, but the better ones have ways to issue SCSI (or ATAPI) commands to get this sort of information. So rather than blindly setting some future date to recopy the discs, you could check up on them every few years, and watch the correctable error counts. The error correction consists of three layers of very robust cross-interleaved Reed-Solomon codes, so it takes a very large number of closely positioned errors that would be individually correctable before you get an uncorrectable error. From richard at idcomm.com Tue Jun 13 01:28:00 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <20000613054840.15093.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <003401bfd500$86cd9700$56483cd1@winbook> Being somewhat more specific, the EPP gives you an Address Strobe, a Data Strobe, a Wait, an interupt, and eight data lines. It also gives you a Write line (indeed a R/w*) but what's important is that your software doesn't have to manipulate these strobes, since the hardware does it automatically. As a consequence, the timing is always as fast as your hardware can do the job, provided you've hooked up the handshakes properly. As with many standards, this one doesn't tell you what, exactly, that might be, and that's where you are right again. However, it's intended, if you can believe the many write-up's that make this claim, that it's capable of ISA bus speeds. That, in short, means two clock ticks at 8 MHz per transfer, if the sync between the handshake lines, strobe and wait, happens just so, else it will probably take three ticks. I've never seen one that fast, and I've only managed to build an interface that moves that fast when I have access to the bus clock, which ABSOLUTELY should be verboten, as the interface is supposed to work without that. If you're not concerned that the sync be exactly the same all the time, you can use a local oscillator of some harmonic of 8 MHz and use a counter to generate the signals you use synchronously with that, always temporally spaced the same amount due to the value that's loaded into the counter whenever a signal from the PC changes state. That will keep you at a minimal phase shift from what's going on in the machine MOST of the time. Now and then there will be a frame slip due to the difference in the oscillator rates, but that will be just about the same as if you had a PLL running, except the jitter will be much larger but much less frequent. Not all systems will like this approach as well as others, but if you're into synchronous state machines and want purely deterministic results, or as nearly so as you can have, then this is a, not THE, way to get there. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:48 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > IIRC an EPP port gives you 8 data lines, which is no way enough to talk > > to an 11/45 front panel (there are 18 data/address input switches, 18 > > EPP gets you eight data signals, a R/W* line, an address strobe, and > a data strobe. It's equivalent to a multiplexed-address-and-data > peripheral bus. So you can hang basically as many I/O signals off it > as you're willing to wire up. > > There's even a signal that can be used as an interrupt input. > > The nice part is that the "SuperIO" sort of chipsets do all the handshaking > for you, so if you want to write a 0x32 to EPP device register 0x2a, all > you have to do is two write cycles. No bit-banging of the control lines > or handshake inputs required. > > It's pretty handy. The only annoying part is the need for the EPP device > to generate a transfer acknowledge signal. I would have been slightly > happier if they spec'd a standard default cycle time, and required the > peripheral to assert a wait signal if it couldn't complete the transfer > that quickly. That would allow for very simple devices with less logic. > From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 02:03:35 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query References: Message-ID: <3945DCC7.5A84D189@rdel.co.uk> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I > could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? I've got the documentation for this. A few years ago I converted some of it to PostScript so I could runoff more copies. I don't think I completed it, but I'll dig out what I've got and scan the rest. You can go a long way by just having the summary of all the SET commands, which change the device type, I/O formats, etc. Actually, now I think about it, the _real_ reason for converting it to PostScript was just to show off the 14-segment LED font I created. The diagrams originally appeared to be hand drawn. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 03:48:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and so changes the price. If the price is "fixed" and you "can" test, then you are wise to go ahead and test it. Bit of advice, NEVER plug something in before making at least some check for loose parts inside. I do the same thing right back to them though, make an offer on a pallet as it sits, then if they decide they want to peek in each box to make sure I don't get a goodie, I tell them fine, but I am looking too, and my offer may drop significantly, or I may only want a few of the systems. Another thing I point out all the time is that I "would have offered a lot more" but somebody damaged the case parts opening up the units. Most of the time I am better off buying items as "assumed" non working. OTOH I don't think I will EVER buy another hard drive "AS-IS" unless I am REAL sure it isn't tested bad goods. Any fairly dollar dense item like a hard drive being offered as-is, should be assumed "tested bad". That said, I keep a blade/phillips two ended screwdriver in my shirt pocket, ALL THE TIME (wife doesn't care for it a bit), and regularly take a "kit" with me in a double shoe box sized plastic tub (two pairs of gloves, leather and rubber, wet wipes, full set of screwdrivers including a BIG one, notebook, pen, long nose pliers, a couple of those jackknife type sets of Torx and allen keys, and three or four nut drivers in sizes too small for anything else. That is not so much my inspection kit (pocket screwdriver does that job) as my field tear it apart kit, dumpster divers tools also included are a couple cables (nothing hooks things like a RJ11 or DB9 when fishing). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:11:50 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: Passing this on, email them not me. ;) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1672647-156-960668504-mikeford=socal.rr.com@returns.onelist.com To: acs.list@jmug.org, abandonedcomputers@egroups.com From: "Dorothy J. Rowe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com; contact abandonedcomputers-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:23:05 -0700 Reply-To: abandonedcomputers@egroups.com Subject: [abandonedcomputers] what can I do with this old computer...? > I saw your posting on the helpline at an obsolete computer site... I >have an old Heath / Zenith 150 system that I built and would now like to >move out of my attic to make space. Its an original IBM PC clone that >runs with a NEC V20 chip at all of 8 MHZ. I also have all the original >documentation, software, modem, printer, etc... What can I do with >it ? I live in the L. A. area. thanx Alan Can anyone help here? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:07:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000613060506.15231.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (rdd@smart.net) Message-ID: >IMHO, the only thing that makes sense today is to write archives to CD-R >(with a gold reflective layer, not the shoddy silver stuff), and plan >to recopy it to newer (and possibly more modern) media within 20 years. Key point is to have a REAL plan with funds etc. earmarked on the 10 and 20 year plans for the data. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 03:57:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport In-Reply-To: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for >this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid >it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. Do it anyway, putting a Mac OS together bitwise is an exercise in unnecessary pain. OTOH you don't "really" need OT, just visits Jags FTP and get the old mac on the internet setup. http://www.jagshouse.com/classic.html From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 03:14:31 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. References: Message-ID: <3945ED67.AFB41ADD@rdel.co.uk> Mike Ford wrote: > > Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, > many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item > basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes > into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and > so changes the price. That'd be Schrodinger's Store? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:37:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: References: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: >There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago >about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is >the one thing that won the war. Seems like "most" of the history specials do that, which makes me think it was actually a much more chancy thing then many assume in hindsight. So many "pivotal" points, big mistakes, great strokes of luck, wise descisions, amazing that schools manage to make history suck, when it is SUCH a good story. A few pivotal points off the top of my head. Attack on Pearl Harbor, including fumbled declaration of war. Invasion of Soviet Union. Manhatten project, actually dropping bombs on Japan. Hitlers poor relations and distrust of military leadership. US stopping at Berlin and waiting for Soviets. Failure to adequately take advantage of submarines, V2, and jet technology. Chamberlines policy of appeasement. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 05:53:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <3945ED67.AFB41ADD@rdel.co.uk> References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> >> Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, >> many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item >> basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes >> into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and >> so changes the price. > >That'd be Schrodinger's Store? So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 07:33:05 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query References: <3945DCC7.5A84D189@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <39462A01.D9F96D50@rdel.co.uk> Paul Williams wrote: > > "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > > > Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I > > could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? > > I've got the documentation for this. Whoops. Having just been home and checked, I find that my programmer is a PP39. However, if you think the documentation for _that_ might be useful, let me know. From at258 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 07:49:57 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe it's called an implied warranty of merchantabilty, i.e. the item sold will perform the task for which it was designed. A washing machine will wash clothes, but may not mix peanut butter cookies. Bill, want to buy a large lot of partially mixed cookie dough? On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a > > catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. > > I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a > "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what > was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. > > If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home > and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor > and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 13 07:53:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a > "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what > was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. It's "Fitness for merchatability" and goes to product being saleable or as advertized is saleable condition. It has also been applied to product safety. > If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home > and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor > and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. Only if advertized as complete. Thrifts and other seconds hand businesses are bound differently and caveat emptor certainly applies. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 13 07:57:48 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF7@TEGNTSERVER> To anyone in the group considering this machine... I have the service manuals w/schematics for it (as well as a working example), so don't let fear of it being an oddball machine deter you from rescuing it. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ford [mailto:mikeford@socal.rr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 5:12 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles > > > Passing this on, email them not me. ;) > > > X-eGroups-Return: > sentto-1672647-156-960668504-mikeford=socal.rr.com@returns.onelist.com > To: acs.list@jmug.org, abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > From: "Dorothy J. Rowe" > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com; contact > abandonedcomputers-owner@egroups.com > Delivered-To: mailing list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > Precedence: bulk > List-Unsubscribe: > Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:23:05 -0700 > Reply-To: abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > Subject: [abandonedcomputers] what can I do with this old computer...? > > > I saw your posting on the helpline at an obsolete > computer site... I > >have an old Heath / Zenith 150 system that I built and would > now like to > >move out of my attic to make space. Its an original IBM PC > clone that > >runs with a NEC V20 chip at all of 8 MHZ. I also have all > the original > >documentation, software, modem, printer, etc... What > can I do with > >it ? I live in the L. A. area. thanx Alan > > Can anyone help here? > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 13 08:14:16 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF8@TEGNTSERVER> > >> > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > >> > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > >> > location predated the deployment of electricity. > >> > > >> > -dq > > ;) In these days of the PC retrorevionist history of computers who knew? > > It's the comma splice, that did it! Because of how you constructed the > sentence, the date, "1928" was juxtaposed between toshiba and > deployment of electricity. I hope my grammer was suitably twisted. > > Seriously it really wasn't clear enough that there were two distinct > though realted ideas there. If I read my sentence (quoted above) out of the context of the thread wherein the date 1700s had previously been stated, I'd see how that interpretation could occur. But in-context, I still don't see it. At any rate, it was an honest mistake, and multiple people made it, so I guess we should move on. Following rules of parallel construction isn't easy in hypertext! -dq From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 13 08:35:15 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000001bfd53c$36005a10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> This was very amusing thanks. I once overheard some internal guys (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. Maybe you heard this one? After the success of the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" John A. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 13 09:32:49 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000613093249.2677b43e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Here we go again! At 11:27 PM 6/9/00 -0400, RD wrote: >On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: >> I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive >> are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? >> Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the >> hard drive? > >Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, >didn't you? No, as a mattter of fact I didn't! Not that it's any of your business but the only thing that I really wanted was a card out of the computer. After I pulled the card, I proceeded to power everything up with no problems. The hard drive worked fine and a quick CHKDSK revealed no obvious problems. I used it for several hours with no problems but then tried to use TI's File Manager program that was installed on it and it wiped out part of the operating system. The only reason that I decided to bother with the computer is that it's a nice clean one and included the original monitor and keyboard so I thought I'd try to find it a home. But even if the power supply went up in smoke and the hard drive torn itself to ribbons it was still a good deal for me since the card is worth far more than the rest of the computer. > Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if >the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and >if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result >in filesystem damage. No shit, Sherlock! Read my comments above about why I bought it. Also please explain how you intend to power up a system and park the heads without moving it and with no power available within 500 feet. Oops, I forgot, you insist on checking the power supply first. How do you plan on opening it and testing the power supply without moving it? Again with no available AC power. Let me make a couple of things clear. First, Most of the stuff that I get is considered scrap. If I don't take it then it gets smashed and loaded on a container ship headed to China. That's not just speculation, I've helped to load and ship them. We've shipped three 40,000 pound loads in the last two weeks. So anything that I take at least gets a second chance at survival even if I don't follow every possible precaution about testing it. Second, the places that I get this stuff from have no AC power availble where the equipment is located. I can take the stuff or leave it but it's impossible to power it up and park the heads or test the power supply first. Here's a list of just SOME of the stuff that I've picked up in the last two weeks: SIX Cromemco Z2-D S-100 systems with dual floppy drives and hard drives, HP 9825B (loaded), FIVE various HP 9825 interfaces, HP 1000 A600 computer, HP 1000 E series computer, TWO HP 9895 dual 8" floppy drives, TWO HP 9885 single 8" floppy drives, two HP 987? printers, HP 7906 fixed drive, TWO HP 6940 Multiprogrammers (loaded) and a HP ?? Multiprogrammer Interface, TI Professional computer in like new condition with original monitor and keyboard and a National Instruments HP-IB card, and last night, a IBM AT with an 8" floppy drive controller card. That's in addition to OVER 320 memory SIMMS, numerous cards, keyboards and other bits and pieces. Does that sound like the kind of stuff that should be left as scrap because I can't test it first? Joe From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 13 09:38:08 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. References: Message-ID: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Mike Ford wrote: > >Mike Ford wrote: > >> > >> Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, > >> many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item > >> basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes > >> into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and > >> so changes the price. > > > >That'd be Schrodinger's Store? > > So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all > transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the > weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat > pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, > who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work > that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a > pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay > by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed) trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working ones at the "As is" price! Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors anyway) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 12:01:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: >> So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all >> transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the >> weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat >> pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, >> who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work >> that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a >> pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay >> by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. > >This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed) >trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own >apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working >ones at the "As is" price! > >Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now >Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors >anyway) Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake easy for a basically honest person to make. OTOH Apple II drives are pretty hard to break, how did you test them? Could it have just been incompatibility? Thats the second risk, customer tests your stuff pronounces it bad, but later on it turns out they (generic they, not you) didn't know beans and the stuff is just fine (which of course you find out after customer B buys it for parts and retests later). From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 12:18:22 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:01 13-06-2000 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, >don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake I don't know that it was a mistake, per se. Got a little story I'd like to share along the same lines. Back about 1994, a year or so after my mate and I first moved to Washington, I was in serious BASSW (Bay Area Surplus Store Withdrawal). To make matters worse, it was late fall, season-wise, and I was having serious trouble adapting to WA state's lower sunny-day count (translation: I was depressed and grouchy). So, I grabbed up the phone book and went digging. A new entry came to light: Specifically, the PC-FIXX Clearance Center, purveyor of Used Parts and Other Goodies. I already knew about PC-FIXX by reputation -- they specialized in repair and upgrade of PCs and, in some rare cases, "other" systems. I went up and had a look. They had a nice as-is alley, though most of the prices were inflated, but I still found my first EISA SCSI adapter for $5. The variety of stuff they had was pretty amazing, and I could tell that they were still in their "we-just-opened" chaos phase. The place went downhill from there, sadly. Prices went up, and selection went down. Then, about a year later, a miracle hit. The entire used-parts division was sold to two fellows, Mark Dabek and Steve Hess, who promptly renamed it RE-PC and rejuvenated the entire store. I continued to visit, and I kept asking about (and sometimes even finding) exotic hardware that practically no one else wanted -- EISA stuff, Sun systems, etc. My visits got to be so regular that not only did the owners and staff get to know me, and I them, but they started drawing on my knowledge and skills. Finally, when they started getting big loads of retired Sun stuff from a local service place, they became overwhelmed because of a lack of experience with SCSI hardware. I stepped in with an offer of help (I was well set up to test SCSI stuff at the time) which was gratefully and quickly accepted. I ended up testing over 100 drives over time, disk and tape alike. To this day, I have friends at both stores (Seattle and Tukwila), and I can say with confidence that I've known the owners for years. And what did I get out of all this? Excellent deals on some of those same drives, good friends, an OK to do a detailed inspection on anything I'm thinking of buying, good contacts in the other computer surplus areas (minis and such), and even a job when I most needed it after a layoff (yes, I actually worked for them for about five months). And all that just because I chose, at one depressed moment, not to give up on a place that was going downhill at the time. I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to reach out, even if you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once thought I was). So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're hunting for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:25:32 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport References: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000613172038.56952.qmail@hotmail.com> 5MB is pretty tight to run 7.5 + Open Transport. I've got a Quadra 650 with 8MB DRAM, System 7.5.5, and Open Transport 1.1.2 (The most stable configuration) and the system takes up about 3.5MB, stripped down. I'd stick with classic networking and MacTCP 1.0.6 (Latest version I belive) If you could find a bit more RAM, kick the disk cache up to 768k. This won't really increase disk performance that much (System 7 disk cache sucks) but it will boost video speed, which uses DRAM as VRAM, and setting disk cache to 768k forces the video system to use the faster memory on SIMMs than the really slow on-board 1MB of DRAM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:20 AM Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport > This is semi-OT, since the IIsi has two years to go before it's on topic :-) > > For a Commodore nut, I sure seem to be doing a steady traffic in Apples. > From the same place I got the SE/30 and the IIgs ROM 3, I also picked up a > IIsi. After some cursing because it was set up with At UnEase, I rigged a > boot disk, trashed AE and started poking around. > > It's an '030 with 5MB RAM running System 7.1. I'm finally seeing value in > the tuition I pay to Loma Linda University, since I basically went to the > System Folder on all their System 7 Macs and grabbed all the extensions and > control panels. Surprisingly, at least to me (the systems in question were > 7.5 or later), this seemed to work EXCEPT for OpenTransport. PC Exchange > purrs like a kitten and I'm able to handle ProDOS and DOS like a pro. (By > the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be > bootable?) But the IIsi simply refuses to mount OT. > > I downloaded 1.0.8 from the Apple support site and tried that, but it simply > said it could not be installed on this particular model and gave no further > explanation. The readme asserts that it will run on '030s and 7.1, though, > for all the versions available from asu.info.apple.com. However, they appear > to be updates, not installs (except for 1.0.8, the 1.1.x versions say that > 1.1 must be installed already). > > Simply copying the libraries and the Shared Library Manager into the > Extensions folder doesn't work. It just ignores them, and when I try to > start the TCP/IP or AppleTalk control panels, it whines that OT is not > running. Copying fresh ones from the "uninstallable" install disk doesn't > do any good either. > > Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for > this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid > it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- > From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 13 12:34:51 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just as valid today as it was then... VAXOLOGY There is a computer named VAX, Which is totally loaded with hacks, But the real piece of crap Is the overflow trap, Which an old-PC register lacks. It's got byte-string instructions galore, But the packed decimal format is poor, And the halfword length means That it isn't worth beans, Just like the 360's of yore. Oh, the branch mnemonics are losing, And the right to left numbers confusing, But the thing that's a pain, An efficiency drain, Is the miniscule page size they're using. Well, they give you lots of good stuff, And the address space size is enough, But you can't do an "exch", And it makes you say "bletch", When you see all the RSX cruft. (There's a bunch of other funny songs and stuff there, but I'll let you guys figure out how to get them...:-) From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:40:33 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Finds Message-ID: <20000613173538.93924.qmail@hotmail.com> Went to Chicago to visit relatives over the weekend but couldn't find any decent used computer stores. Maybe they are in the suburbs? Highlight of the trip was I stayed in a hotel, room 1337. ph33r hax0rs! Went to the local salvation army and picked up an Atari 850 peripherial expansion box, a Disney Sound Sources paralell port sound box (Funny) a few assorted cables, and most importantly, a book on various expansion bussees circa 1983. Covers S-100, Tandy, Multibus, TI/99, Apple II./III. Interesting stuff, and cool pictures of wacky niche machines (The Heathkit LSI-11 Computer, The KIM-1) Happy Hunting! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 12:41:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "RE: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 9:35) References: <000001bfd53c$36005a10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > This was very amusing thanks. > > I once overheard some internal guys > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 12:46:11 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: On Haggle: H19 Terminal W/Graphics option Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613104611.00962a90@pop.sttl.uswest.net> I just placed a low-hours H19 terminal, equipped with a Northwest Digital Systems "Graphics Plus" option (Tek 4010 emulation), up on Haggle (I refuse to deal with E-pay!) for those who may be interested in such. It's at: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202337688 Thanks for looking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 13 12:51:12 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000701bfd55f$f764a1c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> >An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > Pete Well, they were salesmen making the statement . John A. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Jun 13 13:31:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jun 13, 2000 05:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <200006131831.NAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > > This was very amusing thanks. > > > > I once overheard some internal guys > > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > The Indy series had CPU upgrades available several times during its lifespan. We replaced CPU's in our Indys at least twice, becuase SGI gave us a great bargain on the upgrade price. I know the first time we upgraded was shortly after we purchased the units, so I wouldnt be surprised if the original CPU was extremely slow. -Lawrence LeMay From mark_k at iname.com Tue Jun 13 14:37:57 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Mac 800K floppy support (was Re: AppleTalk on the hoof) Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > > > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > > > the older GCR-type disks. > > > > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. > > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. I don't know where you got this misinformation from, but Power Macs do support 800K floppies (apart from recent models which don't have a floppy drive and perhaps the G3 models). Every Mac previous to the Power Macs also supports 800K floppies (apart from the very earliest ones which only had 400K drives). See the "Power Macintosh 7600 Series: Technical Specifications" at http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n19545 Other Technical Specifications documents on the TIL site for other Power Mac series computers also contain this text: * Internal Apple SuperDrive floppy disk drive -- Accepts high-density 1.4MB disks and 800K disks -- Reads, writes, and formats Macintosh, Windows, MS-DOS, OS/2, and ProDOS disks Also see http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n19545 This has a brief explanation on why access to 800K floppies is slower under newer Mac models. -- Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:37:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 12, 0 11:14:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/5413af8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:45:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 12, 0 11:31:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2165 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/70ffe08b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:55:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 13, 0 00:00:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/ec6962b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:32:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 12, 0 11:00:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/94cd0f4f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:00:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 13, 0 00:29:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/15fcdc11/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:12:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 13, 0 00:48:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/e7a24c59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:32:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000613093249.2677b43e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 13, 0 09:32:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/ce82485d/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 13:45:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt > >The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just >as valid today as it was then... Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) Besides I've got to object to the following: > But you can't do an "exch", > And it makes you say "bletch", >When you see all the RSX cruft. $ exch EXCHANGE> exi $ Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 13:57:46 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: DG MicroNova Available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613115746.009745c0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Ran across a fellow a while back who had a DG MicroNova available. Don't know if he's still got it, but you can try: arnies@ix.netcom.com Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 13 13:55:19 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> "Jay West" wrote: > > > In the back cage there are three jumper cards > > Jumper cards continue the interrupt priority chain in the backplane. If your > OS is interrupt driven, you need the jumpers for open slots. If your OS > isn't interrupt driven, you don't need these. hmmm.... then it is possible that some cards are missing because there are intermediate empty slots; here's the back cage configuration: Slot # card description ----------------------- 25 -empty- 24 BACI 12966A 23 Jumper 22 Jumper 21 BACI 12966A 20 BACI 12966A 17 BACI 12966A (note: no slots are labeled 19 or 18) 16 Jumper 15 Jumper 14 -empty- 13 -empty- 12 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB; why a second one?) 11 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB) 10 TIMEBASE GEN I was able to open the front panel (thanks, Eric) and found the following there: Slot # card description ----------------------- DCPC D.C.P.C. | Ribbon connector from front fingerpad to bckpln 111 MEMORY PROTECT 22-7931 112 MEM 22-2127 113 -empty- 114 -empty- . . . . 120 -empty- 121 256KW HSM 12749M | these three cards have their left front fingerpads 122 256KW HSM 12749M | joined by ribbon cable. Right front fingerpads 123 MEM CNTLR 2102E | not connected. And yes, the big board underneath everything is the mainboard with not a piggyback but a "piggytummy" smaller board attached to it. > Most typically in this system, the OS was genned for each card in a certain > slot. If the card positions have been changed the OS generally won't boot. > If you moved the cards, you have to regen the OS. Most likely the system > console was the baci board that was lowest in the backplane, as this one > would have the highest priority. If it was running RTE, ISTR there is way to > boot the system that tells it that the configuration has changed and where > the console and disk are. If this matches your situation, drop me an email > and I'll look it up for you. I did not move the cards around, but again, maybe some cards are missing. I don't know what OS the system was running. I guess that the first thing that I have to do now that I tested the power supply and verified that the machine (seems to) turn on, is to build a serial console cable for this. I have several cables that will fit the BACI boards, but the connectors at the other end have been cut off. Does anybody have the pin out for the finger pads in the front of the BACI boards? -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From red at bears.org Tue Jun 13 14:01:00 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000613054400.15062.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 13 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > But I think all 68k-based Macs except very early and perhaps very late ones > could handle 800K. Certainly all of the Quadras and Centrises that I've used > had no problem with it, but I didn't ever have occasion to use the last > few 68K models. I wonder if it's specifically the 400k disks that there is a problem with? You wrote that your IIci worked fine with 400k disks, which is still more than I had thought, but I wonder if a Quadra would handle a 400k disk. My Mac collection jumps from a IIsi to a PM8500, with nothing in between, so I can't try it myself. ok r. From red at bears.org Tue Jun 13 14:07:55 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. Perhaps slightly more than a story. To bring the cost down on the Indy, they were available with or without secondary cache. All R4000 Indigos have secondary cache (1 MB of it, IIRC), and this resulted in the older R4000 Indigo being noticeably quicker than most of the least expensive Indys. Certainly the Indy was available in configurations which are a good deal quicker than the fastest Indigo (150 MHz R4400), though there are operations for which the Indigo's Elan graphics are quicker than the Indy's top-of-the-line XZ graphics... ok r. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 14:16:44 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: [snip] > But this works both ways... > > I go to your shop and buy a large/heavy . You refuse to let me > dismantle it and remove the PSU so that I can carry it out to my car in 2 > sections. As a result I injure myself. I then turn round and sue you > because you refused to let me move it in the way that I considered safe. > And if I can find a mention in the service manual that it's recomended to > remove the PSU before attempting to lift the machine then I think I'd be > almost certain to win. Uh, no, at least not in the US if the shop owner has half a brain. Even if you walk in off the street there's a notion of an FOB point; up to that point the seller is responsible for the item (including moving it) regardless of if title has changed hands and after which there is no responsibility. However, if I define FOB as being the place where it sits or I hand it to you I *do not* automatically grant you permission to do what you please with it on my premises, nor do I incur any liability for refusing to allow you to do so. For example, if I sell you a television you can't demand to drive a forklift into my shop to collect it, nor can you sit down and start taking it to bits. If you do, I tell you to leave. If you don't leave, it goes from civil to criminal and the cops haul you off. In short, purchasing something from me doesn't convey to you additional rights on my property, nor does my refusal to grant you those rights cause me to incur liability. [snip] > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets Act. [snip] > > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > > *my store*! > > Remind me that if I ever shop in your store and buy something that I > can't easily lift then _you're_ carrying it out to my car. You'd better make that clear before we close the deal, because otherwise I'm under no obligation to do so. > Once it's > there, not in your shop, then I'll take it to bits... Perfectly reasonable :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 14:50:55 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: See later remarks. > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > > > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > > > choose, right?). > > > > Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent > > enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the > > States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for > > insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work > > -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my > > partner and I) assume full liability. > > But this works both ways... > > I go to your shop and buy a large/heavy . You refuse to let me > dismantle it and remove the PSU so that I can carry it out to my car in 2 > sections. As a result I injure myself. I then turn round and sue you > because you refused to let me move it in the way that I considered safe. > And if I can find a mention in the service manual that it's recomended to > remove the PSU before attempting to lift the machine then I think I'd be > almost certain to win. > > I even suspect I could win if, by you refusing to let me dismantle the > machine and lock heads, etc, then damage was caused to _my_ machine. It > doesn't matter that you sold it 'as is' -- as soon as you sold it it's > mine, and you probably can't stop me from treating it in a way to > preserve it. > > Note, I don't expect to be able to power things up. Plugging an unknown > machine into the mains is dangerous for the machine, for the person > handling it, and maybe for other people around it. I would fully > understand why shops would prevent this. > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > which is probably why surplus shops over here are often happy to let > customers take machines apart once they've bought them. It is my understanding that 'contingency fee' lawsuits are not permitted in the UK. If I am correct, that alone would account for a diminished number of suits. Funny how less worth while some things become when you have to put up your own money! - don > > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > > *my store*! > > Remind me that if I ever shop in your store and buy something that I > can't easily lift then _you're_ carrying it out to my car. Once it's > there, not in your shop, then I'll take it to bits... > > -tony > > From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 13 15:01:06 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) > > Besides I've got to object to the following: > > > But you can't do an "exch", > > And it makes you say "bletch", > >When you see all the RSX cruft. > > $ exch > EXCHANGE> exi > $ > > Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. Never used it, strictly Unix and VMS here ... From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 14:03:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > > Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the > top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets > Act. Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in the world as a result. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 15:43:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 13, 2000 12:03:27 PM Message-ID: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > > > > Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the > > top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets > > Act. > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > the world as a result. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US take away our freedom! Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when the Revolution comes"? Zane From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jun 13 15:56:46 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 13, 2000 01:43:55 PM Message-ID: <200006132056.OAA04293@calico.litterbox.com> > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? > > Zane *heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus Cybernetics company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first up against the wall when the revolution comes. Killing all the lawyers comes from Shakespeare. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Jun 13 16:05:38 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jun 13, 2000 05:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <20000613210553Z433869-15171+322@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > > This was very amusing thanks. > > > > I once overheard some internal guys > > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > There is a good deal of truth to it. The original Indy was sold without a secondary cache, which resulted in a very slow machine. Even though it had a faster processor than the Indigo, it quite often ran much slower. The original Indy was designed to be a low end workstation to pull people into the SGI line. It was designed to go head-to-head with the low end Sun workstations. This was later discovered to be a mistake, and secondary cache and faster processors were later added. The Indy continued to evolve long after the original Indigo disappeared from SGI price books. A fairer comparison would be to the Indigo II, which evolved at basically the same pace as the Indy. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 13 16:18:01 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. Message-ID: >Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now >Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors >anyway) Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake easy for a basically honest person to make. OTOH Apple II drives are pretty hard to break, --- I still have a broken one, can I fix it myself? the only thing I know is when I put a diskette in and try to read it it goes rattttatt and gets an error... :^( ---- how did you test them? ----- I connected them to my apple II and put in a known good diskette, swapping the diskette to the other drive to verify it was still known good... :^) ----- Could it have just been incompatibility? Thats the second risk, customer tests your stuff pronounces it bad, but later on it turns out they (generic they, not you) didn't know beans and the stuff is just fine (which of course you find out after customer B buys it for parts and retests later). From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 13 22:16:21 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Hello healyzh@aracnet.com On 13-Jun-00, you wrote: I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > take away our freedom! > > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? > > Zane Yes, we are made safer against our own mistakes (and stupidity), or are we? Nothing replaces good old common sense. Thre are many quotes about the legal profession, but Wm Shakespeare said it best: "First, let's kill all the lawyers" > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 15:27:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." It was Benjamin Franklin, and I know what you're talking about, but this is the totally wrong context. > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > take away our freedom! Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom from being sued when you cause injury? If we're going to talk about "freedom", let's at least put it in the proper context. > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? Until you actually need one... I'm not defending them, I'm just being realistic. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Jun 13 16:30:41 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <017a01bfd57e$9fed7c40$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer > >*heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus Cybernetics >company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first up against the >wall when the revolution comes. Although I believe a later edition of the Guide that fell through a temporal vortex described the Marketing Department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as "a bunch of mindless jerks who _were_ the first up against the wall when the revolution came". Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? Mark "Ford Prefect" Gregory From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 16:36:47 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 13, 2000 11:45:41 am" Message-ID: <200006132136.RAA04190@bg-tc-ppp766.monmouth.com> > >from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt > > > >The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just > >as valid today as it was then... > > Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) > > Besides I've got to object to the following: > > > But you can't do an "exch", > > And it makes you say "bletch", > >When you see all the RSX cruft. > > $ exch > EXCHANGE> exi > $ > > Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. > > Zane Well, it gave Dave Cutler a start in the OS business... Otherwise he'd still be at DuPont and Microsoft wouldn't have stolen WinNT. Perhaps then KL's would've been upgraded to faster hardware and the VAX/VMS OS would've never occurred. (I really like VAX/VMS though)... Perhaps there would've been the 11/68... the Jupiter machine... The 11/74... Bill Gates would've just been a Basic seller. Nah... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 15:14:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Jun 13, 0 12:16:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/fd438af9/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 13 17:05:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Minc-11 Front Panel Plates References: Message-ID: <3946B035.51B4B5D@rain.org> In trying to figure out exactly why I have these things, I couldn't come up with a good reason. There are three Minc-11 brackets and the front panel covers/plates available. If there is no interest here, I'll stick them on ebay Thursday. But until then, free to whoever needs them. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 13 17:09:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946B103.DE6E8978@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > > take away our freedom! > > Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately > deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom > from being sued when you cause injury? The word "legitimately" is being used far too freely! The other side of that "freedom to sue" is the damage it does to the "freedom to innovate." I have heard far too many people say they wouldn't support or get involved in X activity because of the possibility of lawsuits. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 17:16:53 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Let me see if I understand this : > > If I buy something from you, dismantle it (of my own free will) in your > shop and injure myself then I can sue you (and would probably win). If the practical definition of "win" is "obtain a financial settlement without admission of guilt on my part" then the answer is yes. It is generally far less expensive for an insurance company to simply write you a check and jack up my premiums than it is to litigate, even if they eventually prevail. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 17:16:12 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: "r. 'bear' stricklin" "Re: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 15:07) References: Message-ID: <10006132316.ZM6285@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 15:07, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > > Perhaps slightly more than a story. To bring the cost down on the Indy, > they were available with or without secondary cache. All R4000 Indigos > have secondary cache (1 MB of it, IIRC), and this resulted in the older > R4000 Indigo being noticeably quicker than most of the least expensive > Indys. Only the very first Indys; SGI very quickly (a few months) moved from R4000 to 4400 and then 4600, which are the same speed as, or slightly faster than, the R4K Indigo. But yes, I'd forgotten about the original R4000PC Indy, and that would account for the story. > Certainly the Indy was available in configurations which are a good deal > quicker than the fastest Indigo (150 MHz R4400), though there are > operations for which the Indigo's Elan graphics are quicker than the > Indy's top-of-the-line XZ graphics... That's certainly true, so I'm glad that one of mine is an XS24 and another is an Elan, although the R5K might make a difference even then, or so I hear on comp.sys.sgi. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 17:25:42 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay "Re: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 13:31) References: <200006131831.NAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <10006132325.ZM6291@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 13:31, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The Indy series had CPU upgrades available several times during its lifespan. > We replaced CPU's in our Indys at least twice, becuase SGI gave us a great > bargain on the upgrade price. I know the first time we upgraded was > shortly after we purchased the units, so I wouldnt be surprised if the > original CPU was extremely slow. Yes, I think the first upgrade was very soon after the launch. Ours all came with 4400's or 4600's. Anyway, if you still have any R5000's going spare, I can find homes for a couple.... :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 13 17:50:01 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000613185001.A17968@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> But you can't do an "exch", [...] >$ exch >EXCHANGE> exi No, not *that* EXCH!!! John Wilson D Bit From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 13 17:45:47 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:03 PM 6/13/00 -0700, you wrote: >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in >the world as a result. > >Sellam Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that a country where such a belief is widespread is the most unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. The only safety in the US arising from its legal system is the job safety of lawyers. Sorry for the VERY OT post, but this one I had to reply to. carlos. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 13 17:55:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 03:16:53PM -0700 References: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000613185531.B17968@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 03:16:53PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: >It is >generally far less expensive for an insurance company to simply >write you a check and jack up my premiums than it is to litigate, >even if they eventually prevail. It's cheaper in each individual case, but a big loss in the long run. They've really dug their own graves (and everyone else's too) by making frivolous lawsuits worthwhile for the lying scum who file them. They shouldn't have been so short-sighted when it started happening, and now it's too late. So now we're stuck with a lot of vendors who have this "pay me and then screw off" mentality. It's sickening. John Wilson D Bit From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 13 18:25:31 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000613192531.009f0e10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that healyzh@aracnet.com may have mentioned these words: [snip] >> Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a >> rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in >> the world as a result. >> >> Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > >I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes >something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a >little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > >I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US >take away our freedom! IIRC, that would be Ben Franklin, and I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. In the U.S. right now, people who break the law have *more* civil rights than those who don't... that's a sorry state of affairs. I think the lawsuit that cracked me up the most was the woman tried suing a pharmaceutical company that made contraceptive jelly - due to the word "jelly" she was putting it on her toast in the morning and was totally stunned when she got pregnant. - She was suing the company for all the associated costs the child would incur (medical, clothing, food, etc.) over an 18-year period.... ...All because she was too stupid to read the damn directions. Dunno if she ever won, but personally (and I must add an IMHO) a little more Darwinism in cases like this could only be a good thing... Regards, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 17:31:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > >the world as a result. > > Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, > you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. > > Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are > showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that > keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that > a country where such a belief is widespread is the most > unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead > of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. Carlos, have you ever even been out of the United States? Especially to third world countries? You'd know what I mean if you have. What you say has merit, however, you can't always expect other humans to be looking out for your well being. Especially when profit is involved. To take but one example, do you think cars would be as safe as they are today if manufacturers were not held liable for poor designs? Just something to think about. I'm not arguing this either way. I'm just reminding everyone that rarely is there ever a simple answer to these sorts of things. (There was a really funny skit on the old Saturday Night Live where Dan Akroyd would play this cheezy guy who owned a toy manufacturing company that produced such toys as Syringes in a Bag, and other toys containing razor blades, broken glass, etc.) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:39:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:07:01 -0800) References: (rdd@smart.net) Message-ID: <20000613233955.24218.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Key point is to have a REAL plan with funds etc. earmarked on the 10 and 20 > year plans for the data. Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. This subject came up on comp.arch recently, and I posted a message stating that if they aren't going to plan for data retention, I don't see why they should waste my tax dollars to collect the data in the first place. I was expecting to get flamed for that, but apparently no one must have strongly disagreed. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:45:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000613234518.24279.qmail@brouhaha.com> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > I wonder if it's specifically the 400k disks that there is a problem > with? You wrote that your IIci worked fine with 400k disks, which is still > more than I had thought, but I wonder if a Quadra would handle a 400k > disk. My Mac collection jumps from a IIsi to a PM8500, with nothing in > between, so I can't try it myself. AFAIK, all Macs that can deal with 800K can deal with 400K, at least as far as the physical format goes. Recent versions of system software have dropped support for the MFS file system. Normally 400K disks had MFS and 800K had HFS, although it was possible to force other combinations. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:47:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000613234746.24320.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony writes: > Let me see if I understand this : > > If I buy something from you, dismantle it (of my own free will) in your > shop and injure myself then I can sue you (and would probably win). > > If I buy something from you and you insist that I move it in a way that I > don't consider safe and that the manufacturer doesn't consider safe, and > injure myself, then I can't sue you. No, you can sue in the second case also. (Well, you can almost *always* sue. The real question is can you win.) From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 13 18:50:05 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds in Northern Michigan... In-Reply-To: <20000613185531.B17968@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000613195005.009c4100@mail.30below.com> Went to the local garage sales this weekend, and actually got a couple rescues: 1) a Commie 1541-II disk drive. With data cable, no PS. No price, so I asked the lady what she wanted. She says $5.00. I get this really, really pained look on my face, she says $2.00... I now have one eye closed with a look of Ooooooh... still too much. She says $1.00 -- I hand over a buck and say "Thanks." Hate to say it, tho-- If she'd have stayed at $5.00, the drive would've stayed, too. (I think she knew that...) 2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this area: I found a copy of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386, with all docs, slightly beat up box but otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I say: "Will ya take 50 cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) Anywho, that'll give you an idea of the slim pickin's around my area... Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for $300.00 (firm). Happy Hunting, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 13 19:02:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds in Northern Michigan... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000613195005.009c4100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > 2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this area: I found a copy > of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386, with all docs, slightly beat up > box but otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I say: "Will ya take 50 > cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) I have a CCdos 386 kit (release 3)and I've run it. DRI was on the right track and it was quite a bit better than MS-DOS. > Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for $300.00 (firm). I bet the reason there are a lot of them around is the price! Here thats a decent 486DX/66(or faster) that can run winders complete with tube. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 18:43:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 13, 0 12:03:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/2cea2091/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 19:47:41 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: run sys$system:exchange In-Reply-To: <20000613185001.A17968@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Jun 13, 2000 06:50:01 pm" Message-ID: <200006140047.UAA04499@bg-tc-ppp705.monmouth.com> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> But you can't do an "exch", > [...] > >$ exch > >EXCHANGE> exi > > No, not *that* EXCH!!! > > John Wilson > D Bit Bring back... $ MCR FLX FLX> (I once wrote a couple of hundred lines of menuing DCL to build the Vax 11/7x0 diagnostic disks from the VAXPAX tape (or disk directory) -- this was done during the 11/780 maintenance class while being introduced to commands like copy, dir, etc ... (DEC "trained" me on the Vax after three years doing Vax work and standby in NJ). The instructor wanted it submitted to diagnostic engineering -- I went back to NJ to finish the work off and get it cleaned up -- only to find Filex was replaced with Exchange (no... not MS Exchange -- DEC got screwed with that one later...) and my work was headed for oblivion. Oh well... I still want to type MCR SYE... to see an error log and MCR AUTHORIZE. Too bad I can't run VMS 3.6 on a VaxStation 3100. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 19:51:15 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic In-Reply-To: <017a01bfd57e$9fed7c40$0200a8c0@marvin> from Mark Gregory at "Jun 13, 2000 03:30:41 pm" Message-ID: <200006140051.UAA04599@bg-tc-ppp705.monmouth.com> > Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? > > Mark "Ford Prefect" Gregory > Perhaps they should be Penril Sensitive Sunglasses. What ever happened to that old Modem vendor? I know Racal Vadic is still kind of around... in other businesses. Racal Interlan/Micom Interlan is kind of gone. Boy have a large number of the "biggies" bit the dust over the last 15 years. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 20:02:27 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946D9A3.EE7FCA9D@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > > the world as a result. > > Yes, but there's safety and safety, and I am not at all convinced that > all safety is a Good Thing. I think most of us here would agree with you. The notion that safety can be legislated or that massive awards will somehow result in "better" corporate behavior is silly. All that happens is that innovation is stifled. Aerospace is a great place to see the effects of this. In the '50s and 60's the US fielded new aircraft technology at a (comparatively) staggering rate; today we're so risk adverse that it takes decades to crank out a new design, and those designs are hardly the latest-and-greatest technology. Both of the JSF candidates have accurately been described as "ten year old technology". It's sad, really. There were a few references to the Hitchhiker's Guide in this thread, but I'd offer that they're haven't been the best choices. I nominate "When they start putting instructions on toothpicks it's time to leave the planet". -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 20:28:18 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000613233955.24218.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also decaying and partially unreadable. Basically, that is baloney. My Aunt, some sort of economic/urban planning big shot in a way I don't understand, says that it is untrue. In fact, she uses the old data from time to time. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Jun 13 20:44:13 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: <20000614014414Z434024-15170+557@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons > > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they > > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. > > Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people > also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also > decaying and partially unreadable. > The NASA one is definitely true. I was at a NASA workshop sometime around 1990 where this was discussed. One of the problems we discussed was actually using the data before it became unreadable. At that point it was estimated that only 5% of the data collected by NASA was ever read. There were several reasons stated for this: 1) NASA is very conservative in data collection, they always collected more data than they need. The main reason for this is the cost of sending out a probe, you don't want to miss something important and have send another one. 2) There is a considerable time delay in programming a probe. The probes can be programmed after launch, but due to the distances involved (and slow transmission rates), it can take a considerable length of time to send a new program. At that time (1990), the probes were programmed several weeks in advance. Again, if you see something interesting coming for the probe, there is no time to reprogram it, so you had better collect everything. 3) The volume of data was far too large for anyone to look at. NASA was looking for better ways to visualize the data, so more could be examined before it was lost. This is the main reason why I was at the workshop. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 20:45:30 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <20000613234746.24320.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > No, you can sue in the second case also. (Well, you can almost *always* > sue. The real question is can you win.) Very good point. In fact, it is the fault of the media and the public's tendency to overreact that has caused all of this lawsuit madness. Basically, it is not nearly as bad as everyone thinks. While at a horrid document scanning job once a few years back, I tackled a job that involved thousands of personal injury cases. The nature of the job had me reading (or skimming, really) the OCR'd results. Anyway, the first thing that struck me is that a huge number of cases are thrown out of court almost instantly. The second thing is that for the cases that won, damages tend to be the medical expenses and a small amount extra. In those thousands, I only saw _one_ case that resulted in a seven figure settlement, and _very_ few that were in the six figures. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 20:48:52 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:28:18 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000614014852.25506.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people > also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also > decaying and partially unreadable. In the case of NASA, I think it's true because some of the people I've heard it from are NASA employees. This doesn't constitute "proof", necessarily, but it seems somewhat credible. NASA collects one hell of a lot more data than the Census Bureau. In fact, they probably collect MANY hell of a lot mores. They still have data on 7-track tape. Well, actually they probably don't. But they do have the tapes. From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 13 22:39:39 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: Good Lord, Joe, where do you store it all??? Joe Rigdon wrote: > Here's a list of just SOME of the stuff that I've picked up in the last > two weeks: SIX Cromemco Z2-D S-100 systems with dual floppy drives and > hard drives, HP 9825B (loaded), FIVE various HP 9825 interfaces, HP 1000 > A600 computer, HP 1000 E series computer, TWO HP 9895 dual 8" floppy > drives, TWO HP 9885 single 8" floppy drives, two HP 987? printers, HP 7906 > fixed drive, TWO HP 6940 Multiprogrammers (loaded) and a HP ?? > Multiprogrammer Interface, TI Professional computer in like new condition > with original monitor and keyboard and a National Instruments HP-IB card, > and last night, a IBM AT with an 8" floppy drive controller card. That's > in addition to OVER 320 memory SIMMS, numerous cards, keyboards and other > bits and pieces. Does that sound like the kind of stuff that should be > left as scrap because I can't test it first? > > Joe From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 22:44:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Uh, no, at least not in the US if the shop owner has half a brain. Even > > if you walk in off the street there's a notion of an FOB point; up to > > that point the seller is responsible for the item (including moving it) > > regardless of if title has changed hands and after which there is no > > responsibility. However, if I define FOB as being the place where it > > sits or I hand it to you I *do not* automatically grant you permission > > to do what you please with it on my premises, nor do I incur any liability > > for refusing to allow you to do so. That certainly can't be true for all shops over here. > The USA is even more screwed up than I thought! Yes, in some ways it is, alas - it's not the same country that I remember growing up in a couple of decades ago, where people had more freedom of speech (no such thing as that political correctness lunacy) and didn't feel like they were living in a police state where spineless idiots were willing to trade freedom for safety, etc. Of course, one must remember that during the big wars (WWI and WWII), this nation's government was allowed to turn into a monster collecting more and more taxes and imposing more and more control over the lives of individuals; actually, the beginnings of that I recon were actually around the time of the Civil War. Who benefitted the most from WWII, if you think about it? Certain large multinational corporations in the U.S., Japan and Germany, etc., at the expense of lives and money stolen from taxpayers which went into their profits. Because politics here is such a screwed-up mess, it's typically the idiots with screwed-up brains who want to get involved in it, and with the help of the newspapers, and TV and radio news, more and more of which are owned by huge corporations, the idiot-puppets get elected, and, hence, the country gets more and more screwed up. Back when I was in grade school, and in some college classes as well, we were often taught, in history classes, etc. about the falls of ancient Greece and Rome, and how such things a corruption in government, etc. could cause the same thing here. Apparently few others were paying attention; people get so obsessed with little pet issues, that they don't look at the whole picture when they go to vote - plus, most people are apparently like sheep - they only want to vote for the candidate that they think is popular and will win, so, the polls (that some people believe the results of) also influence elections. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 22:48:53 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Yes, we are made safer against our own mistakes (and stupidity), or are we? > Nothing replaces good old common sense. > > Thre are many quotes about the legal profession, but Wm Shakespeare said it > best: > > "First, let's kill all the lawyers" Interestingly, consider how many of our "honorable" (snort) politicians are lawyers - quite a few of them! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 22:56:41 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Who benefitted the most from WWII, > if you think about it? The Jews and Chinese? > Because politics here is such a screwed-up mess, it's typically the [pointless rant snipped] How 'bout them old computers? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 23:01:54 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 12:03 PM 6/13/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > >the world as a result. > > > >Sellam > > Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, > you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. > > Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are > showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that > keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that > a country where such a belief is widespread is the most > unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead > of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. > > The only safety in the US arising from its legal system is > the job safety of lawyers. Quite true. Job opportunities/security for lawyers is a self fulfilling prophecy. The simple fact that one exists requires another (or more) for 'self defense', ad infinitum! - don > Sorry for the VERY OT post, but this one I had to reply to. > > carlos. > > From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 23:05:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, I'm going to be partially in agreement with Sellam Ismail on something! On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > > It was Benjamin Franklin, and I know what you're talking about, but this > is the totally wrong context. > > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > > take away our freedom! > > Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately > deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom > from being sued when you cause injury? I agree; however, I think that with the help of some bad court decisions and certain pea-brained politicians, people are misusing this freedom. The problem is that there are laws that allow for liability where no reasonable person would think there should be an issue of liability. E.g., if someone injures themselves through their own stupidity, they shouldn't be able to sue someone else, such as the person on whose property the injury occured, whether the injured party is a child or not. E.g. if I claim to be knowledgeable about electonics, and get an electic shock from testing a power supply in someone's store, whom I didn't ask for information about how to do this safely from, or get misleading information about this from, then how can it be reasonable to put the responsibility on that other person? People need to accept responsibility for their own actions - that's what is reasonable. > > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > > the Revolution comes"? > > Until you actually need one... Very true; there are some good ones out there who protect us when we need them, and to label them all as money-grubbing sheisters is not only unfair, but dangerous, as, while some of them are politicians, and some cause problems, some of them also help protect us from the damages caused by politicians, etc. Like any other group of people, they're all different; some good, some bad, some intelligent, some a few chips short of a working CPU. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 13 23:15:43 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act Message-ID: <33.66a42fb.267860ef@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > In the UK, if you buy something from a shop then it has to be 'of > merchantable quality' -- it has to do the job that a reasonable person > would expect that sort of product to do (a computer has to compute, a TV > set has to receive currently-broadcast programmes, a packet of %food has > to be edible, etc). Also, if you ask a shop owner for a product to do a > particular job ('I want a computer to run this word processor package', > 'I want a glue to stick metal') then the product he sells you has to do > that job. Yes but . . . suppose a customer comes in with a software package which has the "System Requirements" listed in the documentation. Customer takes the system, finds out software won't run, even though the stated requirements are met, and returns the system. We replace the system, and the software still won't go. Then we discover that the software is buggy, or finicky. Does the merchant still owe the customer a refund, even though there is no real fault in the hardware? This happened to me, and it wasn't any fun . . . > You can sell a defective item if you point out the defects before sale > 'This computer is an ex-demonstration model, missing box, instructions > and mouse'. In that case I can't complain later that the mouse is > missing. But if, say, the floppy drive doesn't work then I have a right > to a refund. A refund? Or replacement of the defective drive, under warranty?? Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:40:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >Carlos, have you ever even been out of the United States? Especially to >third world countries? You'd know what I mean if you have. Much of what is good here comes from a free press and the right to bear arms. And yes, I have been to the UK, and survived. ;) Canada was a bit scary, and Mexico a walk on coals. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:07:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> References: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: > I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to reach out, >even if >you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once >thought I was). > > So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're >hunting >for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a >good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never >know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal. The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every place and every owner will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull, respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today setting up a test system for monitors, and then testing monitors (between digging in every pile I could reach), and generally I get very good treatment from them. This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself though, its more like ploughing the snow off the roads. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:50:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000614014414Z434024-15170+557@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: from William Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: >> > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons >> > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they >> > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. >> >> Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people >> also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also >> decaying and partially unreadable. >> > >The NASA one is definitely true. I was at a NASA workshop >sometime around 1990 where this was discussed. One of the >problems we discussed was actually using the data before it >became unreadable. At that point it was estimated that only >5% of the data collected by NASA was ever read. There were >several reasons stated for this: > >1) NASA is very conservative in data collection, they always > collected more data than they need. The main reason for > this is the cost of sending out a probe, you don't want > to miss something important and have send another one. This is a foggy memory from the a trip to Houston, but isn't a lot of older data just printed text on paper? From kenn at bluetree.ie Wed Jun 14 05:39:43 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX 6540 (?) available in Cork, Ireland Message-ID: I just heard about this: > It's a 6540 I think. About 4ft wide, 3ft deep and 6ft high. 3-phase > power, plus tape unit, console, etc. BIG motherfucker. You'd need > to find transport... If you're interested, I'll give you this guy's email address off-list. Later, Kenn From djg at drs-esg.com Wed Jun 14 06:48:36 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Part datasheets Message-ID: <200006141148.HAA22355@drs-esg.com> From djg at drs-esg.com Wed Jun 14 06:49:29 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Part datasheets try 2 Message-ID: <200006141149.HAA22364@drs-esg.com> The former pay IHS Caps datasheet service is now available for free from http://www.freetradezone.com. It has a good collection of datasheets for obsolete components not available from manufacturer sites. You do have to register and enter a company name. I used the pay CD based system when my work had it but have not done much with the online version. David Gesswein From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:19:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE04@TEGNTSERVER> > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a > saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier > freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." Ben Franklin: The man who would trade a bit of liberty for a bit of security deserves neither liberty nor security Probably still not exactly correct, it may have been "a little" instead of "a bit". Only certain source I can think of is the musical "1776" and they probably mangled the original line to make it more stage-worthy. -doug q (who would trade all the security he has for more liberty) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:20:27 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE05@TEGNTSERVER> > *heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus > Cybernetics > company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first > up against the > wall when the revolution comes. > > Killing all the lawyers comes from Shakespeare. Richard III From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:23:33 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE06@TEGNTSERVER> > Although I believe a later edition of the Guide that fell through a > temporal vortex described the Marketing Department of the Sirius > Cybernetics Corporation as "a bunch of mindless jerks who > _were_ the first > up against the wall when the revolution came". > > Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? Right next to your SEP field generator.... :-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:32:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE07@TEGNTSERVER> > What ever happened to that old Modem vendor? > I know Racal Vadic is still kind of around... in other businesses. > Racal Interlan/Micom Interlan is kind of gone. > > Boy have a large number of the "biggies" bit the dust over the last 15 > years. Did Anderson-Jacobsen survive beyond the acoustic coupler days? I have an old unit that could go up to 600 baud using Bell 103a standards, although it was difficult to find anyone who would support 600 baud using Bell 103a; 600 baud was usually Bell 202? (whatever the standard was for 1200 baud). -dq From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 14 08:03:33 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Fwd: RT-11 capable systems in Ann Arbor, MI Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000614080246.00b86690@pc> >X-Sender: jfmjfm@srvr5.engin.umich.edu (Unverified) >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:14:36 -0400 >To: microscopy@sparc5.microscopy.com >From: "John F. Mansfield" > >Subject: Surplus Equipment going cheap (not free). > >I have the following surplus equipment that is destined for the >recycle dumpster if no-one is interested. > >1. Two Tracor TN5500 XEDS systems. > a. One system has a 30Meg hard disk drive, two 5.25 Syquest >removable hard disks (both failed) and two floppy disks one 5.25" and >one 8". There are actually two 5.25" disks and two 8" disks in a >separate subsystem, but the hard ware only supports two floppies at >one time and so we have one of each set up. A standard Tracor >keyboard with keypad and monitor is supplied. The system does not >have a printer. We modified it so it would run without a printer and >if we need print out we have a couple of switch boxes that directs >the print out to a Mac (PC can be substituted). We also have the HP >plot software and this is directed to a program on the Mac that can >then send the plot to a laser printer or can save it for pasting into >word processing documents. >The system has the imaging package that will allow the computer to >control the microscope (it is setup for a JEOL 2000FX) and record >STEM and SEM images and XEDS maps. The software includes SMTF and >SQMTF. The system has an almost new refurbished light element >detector (detects down to C). System also has a license for RT-11, >the DEC operating system and it can run an FTP server for removal of >spectra and images to a remote computer. Make an offer. > > b. The second system is floppy based and also has imaging >which is setup for an SEM whose manufacturer evades my memory, but if >anyone is interested I will obviously find out for you. This system >has a Be window XEDS detector with it. Make an offer. > >2. Liquid nitrogen cold stage for JEOL 2000 FX Gatan double tilt (old >model 613 upgraded to double tilt). Sample airlock pumps dewar jacket. >Make an offer. > >3. A Perkin Elmer 5400 data acquisition computer (6809 chip running IDRIS). > >I also have a Be window XEDS detector that is non functional that >fits the high angle port of a JEOL 2000FX > >In each case the buyer pays shipping. > >-- > >Dr. John Mansfield CPhys MInstP >North Campus Electron Microbeam Analysis Laboratory >417 SRB, University of Michigan >2455 Hayward, Ann Arbor MI 48109-2143 >Phone: (734) 936-3352 FAX (734) 763-2282 >Cellular Phone: (734) 358-7555 >(Leaving a phone message at 936-3352 is preferable to 358-7555) >Email: jfmjfm@engin.umich.edu >URL: http://emalwww.engin.umich.edu/people/jfmjfm/jfmjfm.html >Location: Lat. 42? 16' 48" Long. 83? 43' 48" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jun 14 10:02:32 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000614080232.0098e100@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 01:07 14-06-2000 -0800, you wrote: >The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every place and every owner >will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on >different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull, >respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to >time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today Couldn't have said it better. I still have a good working relationship with some of the folks at Weird Stuff, despite the physical distance, as does a friend of mine who's local to them. >This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself though, its more >like ploughing the snow off the roads. The effort is usually worth it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 14 10:49:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE07@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Did Anderson-Jacobsen survive beyond the acoustic coupler days? Very much so. I've got many AJ modems in my collection, going up to 2400 bps. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 14 12:30:03 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > Much of what is good here comes from a free press and the right to bear arms. Well, we did have a free press at one point in time, however, with even small local town newspapers being gobbled up by big city newspapers that are owned by large media conglomerates that are well intertwined with large multinational corporations and the influential corruption addicts and other goings on in Washington, D.C., competent reporting is generally intermixed with carefully contrived propaganda, created for the purpose of playing with people's minds in order to move us closer towards a totalitatian one world government. If the minds of so many people weren't so focused on what I call "distractionist topics," which are frequently in the news and topics of debate between politicians, such as education funding, abortion, various political sex scandals, race-related issues, politically correct pettiness, etc., which serve as detractions from other issues with further reaching implications, such as the dangers of increasing federal government, as well as state and local government - often under the influence of the federal government, control over our day to day lives, there would probably be a strong revolt. An interesting quotation: [We] should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when corruption in this as in the country from which we derive our origin will have seized the heads of government and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic and will be alike influenced by the same causes. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIII, 1782. ME 2:164 What too many people overlook is the main reason for the right to bear arms. It's not so just for protection from criminals, but for our own protection against a government that restricts our freedom; I'm sure that many of you, hopefully, are familiar with the writings of Thomas Jefferson pertaining to this, such as the following: What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, freedom in the world. Thoughts? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 12:28:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <33.66a42fb.267860ef@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 14, 0 00:15:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2654 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/38fc30ad/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Wed Jun 14 12:52:07 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what > role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, > freedom in the world. Thoughts? Dude, it's egregiously off-topic. This is not the libertarian list, it is the classic computer list. Give it a rest. ok r. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 13:21:56 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation Message-ID: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> Despite the fact that every term program under the sun seems to support Tek 4014/5, I cannot find a description of the control sequences anywhere (just a reference to the termcap entry, but I want the *graphics* control sequences, not the terminal ones). Does anyone know where I might find a listing of them? Until then, I'll use GNUplot ;-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Eat healthy, stay fit, DIE ANYWAY! ----------------------------------------- From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jun 14 12:49:02 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO References: fromWilliam Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, Anybody knows, if they still are available ? If yes, where ? cheers, emanuel From ss at allegro.com Wed Jun 14 13:38:45 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 power suppply question Message-ID: <39476EC5.31003.EAC2824@localhost> Hi, I recently found a Lexmark "Lexbook MB10" ... with no docs, no power supply. The back of the computer says the power supply should be 12 V DC, but has no mention of the polarity! Does anyone have this oddball computer, and can they tell me the polarity of the adapter, please? BTW, this Lexbook looks like IBM's answer to the HP Omnibook 425. In web searching, I found several references to other Lexbook models (including the SE10), but none to the MB10. Lexmark's web site was an example of corporate stonewalling (not quite the word I want): since it's obsolete, they have no information on it, and don't even admit (via their search engine) that it might have once existed! Altavista found a single Lexmark.com web page about "Y2K compliance" ...which basically says: hey, it's obsolete, we didn't test it, buy something newer. thanks, Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jun 14 13:53:51 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 References: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00ff01bfd631$e31e2b50$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: sjm To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 23:03 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 > Hey teen gang, ? ;-) > Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like > to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, > and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can > avoid it. There is no way i know of, to still get a Ultrix. BTW, the last one was 4.5. > (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. > But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of > mortal men.) Anyway, look for the Y2K CD also. THIS one is harder to find. And with 4.4 or 4.5, you can't even adjust your date today ... cheers, emanuel From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 14 14:07:21 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO In-Reply-To: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> (emu@ecubics.com) References: fromWilliam Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <20000614190721.1659.qmail@brouhaha.com> "emanuel stiebler" asks: > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? Anchor Electronics in Santa Clara, CA. NOT the one in Biloxi, MS. I haven't found a web page for them. Check with directory assistance. In general you may have better luck searching for the 82C55, which is still being made. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 14:15:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE0F@TEGNTSERVER> I'd be shocked if you can't get them from Radio Shack. -dq p.s. I got at least one laying around but they're OOP (out of production) I think I'll have to hang onto it. > -----Original Message----- > From: emanuel stiebler [mailto:emu@ecubics.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:49 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: 8255 PIO > > > Hi, > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? > > cheers, > emanuel > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 14 14:40:37 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO Message-ID: <000614154037.202016dd@trailing-edge.com> >Anybody knows, if they still are available ? >If yes, where ? Anyplace that sells older Intel chips certainly has them. Jameco, in particular, has both the "regular" and CMOS versions, and with a choice of speed grades: 52724 8255 IC,MPU,8255(D71055C NEC) 3.95 3.59 _____ 52732 8255A-5 IC,MPU,8255A-5(8255AC-2 NEC) 4.95 4.49 _____ 52417 82C55A IC,MPU,82C55A (MB89255A) 3.95 3.59 _____ 52425 82C55A-5 IC,MPU,82C55A-5 3.95 3.59 _____ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 14 14:41:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO In-Reply-To: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi, > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? Yes, and JDR for one. Many others I'm sure, it was used as a XT keyboard interface so there are XT baord you can likely just unplug it from. How many do you need? FYI: the 8255-5 is the same part (faster with a bit more drive). Allison From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 14 13:45:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what > role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, > freedom in the world. Thoughts? Please. This is as far off the topic of classic computers as you can get, no matter how you try to spin it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 14 14:54:35 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Despite the fact that every term program under the sun seems to support > Tek 4014/5, I cannot find a description of the control sequences anywhere > (just a reference to the termcap entry, but I want the *graphics* control > sequences, not the terminal ones). Does anyone know where I might find a > listing of them? Yes. :-) I just dug up my Tektronix 4114 Display Terminal Operator's Manual and found the following beginning on page C-4: List of Escape Sequences; each escape sequence is listed alongside it's corresponding command and setup command. For example: Ec(I)(A) Set-GIN-Cursor None . . . Ec(L)(X) Set-Dialog-Area-Position DAPOSITION Is that what you're looking for? If so, e-mail me your snail-mail address and I'll send you photocopies of these escape sequences. BTW, Does anyone on this list have, or know where I can obtain, service data for my Tektronix model 4014 terminal? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 14 14:59:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) Message-ID: <3948002A.7403.1A8011BD@localhost> > > Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in > > computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages > > instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to > > be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, > > then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very > > much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain > > old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep > > from going out of use? > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > "non-windows" issue. Well, not exactly - Windows IS NOT using 8859-1 - and I woundn't considere the usage of 8859 as something to harm classic system users nor users of non win sytems - in fact, 8859 is only in use among Unix stuff, and 8859 is probably the most 'classic friendly' way of an extended 8-Bit coding since it leaves the 'high bit set' control codes (80-9F) unasigned. 8859 is eventualy one of the few standards where still people with real knowledge have been involved and tried to create the least harmfull solution. And to avoide some misconceptions, RTF, HTML, or whatever fancy formating has _nothing_ to do with 8859 (the code is not responsible for beeing used by some other stuff :). 8859-x is todays ASCII. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 15:04:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 14, 0 11:21:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2021 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/7c0decbc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 15:10:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 14, 0 03:54:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/d2e001e5/attachment.ksh From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jun 14 15:19:15 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: OT Vast amounts of NASA data in weird formats (Long) Message-ID: Now that the subject line somewhat matches the topic. NASA and other unnamed government agencies collect "LOTS" of data. They have lots of tapes, some ASCII card images on tape, and other raw formats. Now when a project is winding down do you think anyone "cares"/spends money to transfer any data into newer formats. The original software that was written probably handles the data and works OK. I understand that lots of LANDSAT data has cloud cover obscuring it. Do you save even the "apparently" worthless stuff? The first thing any engineer/programmer tries is to pack the data onto the tape as efficiently as possible. 12 bit pixels get stored 2 pixels in every 3 bytes. Everybody used different methods to handle uneven numbers of pixels, including padding, and truncation. How do you decide how the data was stored. I'm sure the paper that documents the data format is detached from the physical tape. The short answer is that when data is collected no one has any idea of what eventually may be done with the data. They only expend as much time, energy, and money as the initial project seems to justify. I will try and find my copy of a GAO report that I purchased on the magnitude of the data storage/retention problem. They had pictures of doors in the data vault being held open by stacks of tapes. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu Data Hound extraordinary, I'm burying my floppy disks for posterity. Maybe we should use gold floppy disks will not oxidize and absorb moisture in any short term interval. From ss at allegro.com Wed Jun 14 15:26:13 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 power suppply question In-Reply-To: <39476EC5.31003.EAC2824@localhost> Message-ID: <394787F5.4041.F0E9092@localhost> Re: > I recently found a Lexmark "Lexbook MB10" ... with > Lexmark's web site was an example of corporate stonewalling I'd posted a note to several addresses within lexmark.com, asking for information about the Lexbook MB10 last night. Today, I got an email from someone there, offering me a free adapter! Unfortunately, it was an adapter for a Lexbook SE10 (aka ThinkPad 500), which appears to be a different computer (and, one using different voltage :( A ThinkPad 500 is 7.23" deep, my MB10 is 6.5" deep (and has only a 9 pin serial, and 25 pin parallel connector on the back). Oh well... Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 14 16:14:21 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 14, 2000 09:04:35 PM Message-ID: <200006142114.OAA04639@shell1.aracnet.com> OK, for all I know everyone that is interested in such stuff already knows about this. However, I just ran across this, and it sounds like something of interest to some of the list members (basically because it's apparently software for 6809 SWTP boxes). Remember I've no idea what this stuff is. Zane http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/index.html "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive UniFLEX'09 for SWTP & Gimix - Plus ALL Products Ever Developed! The UniFLEX'09 Archive represents ALL known products that were developed / or adapted by Technical Systems Consultants, Inc. (TSC), from late in 1979 through to 1989 when, at that time, the Company and UniFLEX O/S were sold to an "investor." The 6809 versions were NOT part of that fateful episode - so, they were put away in a storage room and eventually lost. " From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 16:38:18 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 14, 0 09:04:35 pm" Message-ID: <200006142138.OAA06344@oa.ptloma.edu> ::OK, to get it into graphics mode you send it a GS (Group Separator, 0x1d) ::character. The first vector drawn after entering graphics mode will be ::dark (not displayed, a move rather than a draw)_unless_ the GS is ::immediately followed by a BEL (Bell, 0x07) character. If it is, then the ::first vector is drawn. All subsequent vectors are darwn. [excellent stuff snipped] Okay, that seems simple enough :-P, but how do I plot individual points, say? What I'm writing is a Tek image viewer so that I can use a dummy terminal and Lynx to still be able to view pictures. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Art is anything you can get away with. -- Marshall McLuhan ----------------- From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 14 16:45:52 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: You think you can't find anything! (Was: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds...) Message-ID: <20000614214552.20729.qmail@hotmail.com> >>2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this >>area: I found a >>copy of Digital Research's Concurrent >>DOS 386, with all docs, slightly >>beat up box but >>otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I >>say: >>"Will ya take 50 >>cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) > >I have a CCdos 386 kit (release 3)and I've run it. DRI >was on the right >track and it was quite a bit better >than MS-DOS. > >>Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for >>$300.00 (firm). > >I bet the reason there are a lot of them around is the >price! Here thats >a decent 486DX/66(or faster) that can >run winders complete with tube. > >Allison You think you people can't find anything! Pickin's are so slim out here, last time I picked up anything interesting was right about early March or so. My point is simply this: If there is anything I have learned in this long, strange trip that is life, it is to never complain about anything, there is always someone who has it worse than you do. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 17:09:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006142138.OAA06344@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 14, 0 02:38:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/9e1a2d18/attachment.ksh From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Jun 14 17:24:16 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home Message-ID: <6d.527f16c.26796010@aol.com> This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor (probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. Let me know. Glen 0/0 From mark.champion at am.sony.com Wed Jun 14 17:50:11 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: <200006142138.OAA06344@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <00dc01bfd652$e67a4ba0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> The Tek 4014 had a mode called "Point Plot State". In this mode, only the final vector endpoints are plotted. You enter "Point Plot State" from "Vector State" or "Alpha State" with the FS character. Some Tek 4014 emulators do not implement "Point Plot State" correctly or at all, so you may want to plot your points using normal "Vector State" commands. For this, just send a GS character followed by the point location (dark vector) followed by the point location again (light vector with zero length). Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 2:38 PM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > ::OK, to get it into graphics mode you send it a GS (Group Separator, 0x1d) > ::character. The first vector drawn after entering graphics mode will be > ::dark (not displayed, a move rather than a draw)_unless_ the GS is > ::immediately followed by a BEL (Bell, 0x07) character. If it is, then the > ::first vector is drawn. All subsequent vectors are darwn. > > [excellent stuff snipped] > Okay, that seems simple enough :-P, but how do I plot individual points, > say? > > What I'm writing is a Tek image viewer so that I can use a dummy > terminal and Lynx to still be able to view pictures. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Art is anything you can get away with. -- Marshall McLuhan ----------------- From mark.champion at am.sony.com Wed Jun 14 18:01:03 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes Message-ID: <00e601bfd654$6b02b640$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> I have 30 small (6" dia) VAX tapes (Opus 6250) and 12 large (7" dia) VAX tapes (Scotch 700). I believe the small tapes are 600' x 1/2" and the large tapes are 700' x 1/2". I think they have all been written on once. Are these worth anything to anyone? What should I do with them? Throw them away? Give them away? List on Ebay? Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 18:23:40 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 14, 0 11:09:44 pm" Message-ID: <200006142323.QAA12876@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Remember that the original Tektronix unit was a vector display (not a ::raster scanned unit), so the whole thing is based on drawing vectors. I was still hoping though! :-) What I ended up doing was the same thing you suggested, sending the vector twice. I made up a mini-"RLE" mode where it would turn a line of black pixels into two vectors rather than a vector pair for every point, and together with a contrast adjust that turned down dithering it came out very well. It's not too quick but then neither is the C128 or the Mac IIsi. pnmtotek :-) is in Perl. I can share it with the list if people like; it's short and a terrible example of Perl programming. I'm sure people can improve on it; I'm just going to see if I can turn it into C first. It takes any P6 portable anymap from, say djpeg or NetPBM, and displays it in Tek. ::It would be a lot more fun to use a real Tekky terminal for this ;-) Yeah, but when all you have is Commodore Kermit and a IIsi with NCSA Telnet 2.6, you take what you can get ;-) Surfing the web on a 4014 ... -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 18:25:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home In-Reply-To: <6d.527f16c.26796010@aol.com> Message-ID: >This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire >it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor >(probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. >From where? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 18:29:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <00dc01bfd652$e67a4ba0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> from "Mark Champion" at Jun 14, 0 03:50:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000615/633d7793/attachment.ksh From mark.champion at am.sony.com Wed Jun 14 19:58:49 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: Message-ID: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Tony, I believe you are correct regarding the EGM. Thanks for clarifying that point. Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML compatible email programs have this capability. The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > [Please could you set your mail software to limit the line length to < 80 > characters] > > > > > > The Tek 4014 had a mode called "Point Plot State". In this mode, only the > > final vector endpoints are plotted. You enter "Point Plot State" from > > "Vector State" or "Alpha State" with the FS character. > > According to the manual, this mode (and incremental plot mode, etc) is > only available if you have an EGM (Enhanced Graphics Module, Option 34) > installed in the 4014. This appears to consist of an extra PCB (Discrete > Plot Card) and replacements for a lot of the other boards. > > I think I could justify that a 4014 emulator need not support this mode :-) > > > > > Some Tek 4014 emulators do not implement "Point Plot State" correctly or at > > all, so you may want to plot your points using normal "Vector State" > > commands. For this, just send a GS character followed by the point > > location (dark vector) followed by the point location again (light vector > > with zero length). > > This is the documented way to do it on all 4014s. > > -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 14 21:05:11 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes In-Reply-To: Anyone interested in VAX tapes (Mark Champion) References: <00e601bfd654$6b02b640$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <14664.14807.254349.568949@phaduka.neurotica.com> I'd suggest either giving them away (post a "who wants these" sort of message here, for example) or putting them up on eBay. Throwing things in the trash, especially things which...well, aren't trash, is never a good solution. -Dave McGuire On June 14, Mark Champion wrote: > I have 30 small (6" dia) VAX tapes (Opus 6250) and 12 large (7" dia) VAX tapes (Scotch 700). > > I believe the small tapes are 600' x 1/2" and the large tapes are 700' x 1/2". > > I think they have all been written on once. > > Are these worth anything to anyone? > > What should I do with them? Throw them away? Give them away? List on Ebay? > > Mark Champion > Sony Electronics > 206-524-0014 > mark.champion@am.sony.com > > > > From west at tseinc.com Wed Jun 14 21:02:05 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> <20000613055231.15127.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000b01bfd66d$b51fc240$0101a8c0@jay> So far, all the HP 21mx line that I've found uses the same key. Just let me know where to send one and I'll get a copy made and send it to ya. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:52 AM Subject: Re: New find: HP 1000 E series > Carlos wrote about an HP 1000 E-series: > > I have not been able to open the front panel > > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > > what's in the front card cage; > > One of the screws behind the front panel "flange", when removed, will > cause the panel latch assembly to fall to the bottom of the machine, > and the front panel to flop open. It is then a simple matter to remove > the lock and take it to a locksmith to either get a key made or get it > rekeyed. It's also very easy to reassemble. > > > > From west at tseinc.com Wed Jun 14 21:08:54 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Fw: New find: HP 1000 E series Message-ID: <001f01bfd66e$a90532a0$0101a8c0@jay> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay West To: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:07 PM Subject: Re: New find: HP 1000 E series > You wrote.... > You wrote... > > Slot > > # card description > > ----------------------- > > 25 -empty- > > 24 BACI 12966A > > 23 Jumper > > 22 Jumper > > 21 BACI 12966A > > 20 BACI 12966A > > 17 BACI 12966A (note: no slots are labeled 19 or 18) > > That's because the slot numbering is octal. > > > 16 Jumper > > 15 Jumper > > 14 -empty- > > 13 -empty- > > 12 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB; why a second one?) > > 11 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB) > > 10 TIMEBASE GEN > > Very likely there is a two board controller missing - did you say you have a > separate 7970 tape drive? If it's non-HP-IB, then those two missing boards > are tape-1 and tape-2. You'd want those :) > > > Slot > > # card description > > ----------------------- > > DCPC D.C.P.C. | Ribbon connector from front fingerpad to bckpln > > 111 MEMORY PROTECT 22-7931 > > 112 MEM 22-2127 > > 113 -empty- > > 114 -empty- > > . . > > . . > > 120 -empty- > > 121 256KW HSM 12749M | these three cards have their left front > > fingerpads > > 122 256KW HSM 12749M | joined by ribbon cable. Right front finger > > pads > > 123 MEM CNTLR 2102E | not connected. > > Memory options - DMA (DCPC), Memory Protect, and Extended Memory ( > 32KW). > > > I did not move the cards around, but again, maybe some cards are > > missing. > > I don't know what OS the system was running. > > RTE, DOS, BCS? I dunno - I'd make a wild stab at what you've said so far > about the machine that it was RTE. > > > I guess that the first thing that I have to do now that I tested the > > power supply and verified that the machine (seems to) turn on, > > is to build a serial console cable for this. I have several cables > > that will fit the BACI boards, but the connectors at the other > > end have been cut off. Does anybody have the pin out for the > > finger pads in the front of the BACI boards? > > I use 12531 controllers. I do have a few baci boards, but I'm not sure what > docs I have on them. I'll look, but anyone else have this handy? > > Jay West > From sring at uslink.net Wed Jun 14 22:11:23 2000 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home References: <6d.527f16c.26796010@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201bfd677$643f8540$8657ddcc@uslink.net> I am interested in the Tandy 1000 EX. What is included with it. Where is it located? From: "Stephanie Ring" sring@uslink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 5:24 PM Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home > This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire > it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor > (probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. > > Let me know. > > Glen > 0/0 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Jun 14 22:35:53 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at Jun 08, 2000 08:09:11 PM Message-ID: <200006150335.UAA18492@eskimo.com> > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) There have been a number of programs that use the graphics mode of a dot-matrix printer to print pages sideways (you might say in landscape mode). One of those programs was even _called_ Sideways. They were usually aimed at spreadsheet users, because spreadsheets are much wider than they are tall. Your disk could be one of these programs. -- Derek From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Jun 14 22:57:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: OT: mechanical computer monitor Message-ID: <200006150357.UAA19351@eskimo.com> We already had the "mechanical fax machine" thread... here's a (partly) mechanical computer monitor. It uses classic technology (the Nipkov, or I think also Nipkow, disk) but it shows a computer-generated digital signal rather than an analog signal. So it's computer-related! :) http://www.media.mit.edu/~rehmi/rotoscope/ The creator wants to make a "wind-up browser" in the same way you can get wind-up radios and flashlights. -- Derek From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Jun 14 23:21:44 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home Message-ID: <9.6cab669.2679b3d8@aol.com> In a message dated 06/14/2000 7:32:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > >This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire > >it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor > >(probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. > > From where? Oops -- forgot to mention I'm in Florida. Glen 0/0 From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jun 15 00:16:02 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Fw: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: "Jay West"'s message of "Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:08:54 -0500" References: <001f01bfd66e$a90532a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <200006150516.WAA88233@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Jay West" wrote: > I use 12531 controllers. I do have a few baci boards, but I'm not > sure what docs I have on them. I'll look, but anyone else have this > handy? Looks like I have manuals (installation/service/reference and diagnostic) for these (12966A) and they shouldn't be buried too deep, maybe I can look for them tomorrow or (more likely) this weekend. -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 15 03:30:08 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: "Mark Champion" "Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation" (Jun 14, 17:58) References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 14, 17:58, Mark Champion wrote: > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML compatible email programs have this capability. No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) As you see from the above, you lose the quoting when most software does the wrapping after the event. It's an accepted convention to keep lines short -- and I seem to remember we had this discussion a few months ago? > The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep the correct indentations. Particularly since not everyone uses the same quoting characters (I use "> " but others may use "<" or ":" with or without a following space). > If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. Yes please. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 15 03:13:38 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive" (Jun 14, 14:14) References: <200006142114.OAA04639@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10006150913.ZM8060@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 14, 14:14, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > OK, for all I know everyone that is interested in such stuff already knows > about this. Possibly, but it's an excellent resource -- and as the web page says, it may not be around for ever (hint). > However, I just ran across this, and it sounds like something > of interest to some of the list members (basically because it's apparently > software for 6809 SWTP boxes). > > Remember I've no idea what this stuff is. It's just what it says it is -- the FLEX and UniFLEX operating system software (related to OS/9) for SWTPC 6809 systems. Randy spent a lot of time and effort tracking this down about five years ago; we exchanged some email because I had what appeared to be some FLEX stuff on 8" but no machine to read it, and Randy eventually found it elsewhere. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 07:19:07 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Good morning, all... The subject line above might be a bit misleading. In the short time I've been subscribed to the list, I've seen a lot of negative criticism of E-Bay, or rather, of trying to buy things found on E-Bay. The criticisms all seem to concern how much an item on E-Bay ends up costing. What I guess I haven't seen said here is an acknowledgement that the high prices are a result of parties bidding against each other. I realize that in some cases, some shill bidding may be going on, but most of the time, I think I'm just seeing prices go high because people really want an item. Now, as to why an original IMSAI will go for $1200 when you can take about $800 and buy a brand new one with a Z-80-descended processor and a meg of bank-switched RAM, is beyond me. OTOH, I see SOLs going for for high prices, and they don't make those anymore. But I've been able to find great buys on items that aren't quite so popular, like TI Silent700 terminals, older wide-carriage printers, and so on. Having said that, one item I'd been trying to buy for a while is a Wyse 50 terminal, with a preferences for an amber screen. The ambers seem to be more rare, and command a higher price on E-Bay. Everytime one is for sale, someone goes over my max price, and I don't get a terminal. So, I decided to surf the web more broadly one day (and not specifically looking at other auction sites), when lo and behold, I find a guy up in Michigan who has an amber Wyse 50 for sale; he threw in a modem and a serial cable and shipped it to me for a mere $25.00. It's a clean unit with no visible screen burn. The F13 keycap comes off easily; other than that, it's a fine example of what became my favorite computer terminal. In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too high. regards, -doug quebbeman From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Jun 15 07:16:45 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Fw: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: <200006150516.WAA88233@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Jay West"'s message of "Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:08:54 -0500"> <001f01bfd66e$a90532a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000615081645.011e9d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Thanks; I really appreciate that. regards, carlos. At 10:16 PM 6/14/00 -0700, you wrote: >"Jay West" wrote: >> I use 12531 controllers. I do have a few baci boards, but I'm not >> sure what docs I have on them. I'll look, but anyone else have this >> handy? > >Looks like I have manuals (installation/service/reference and >diagnostic) for these (12966A) and they shouldn't be buried too deep, >maybe I can look for them tomorrow or (more likely) this weekend. > >-Frank McConnell From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 08:22:23 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Something of possible interest to the VAX/VMS Crowd Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE13@TEGNTSERVER> A friend in OZ was looking for info on how MS language translators (old ones) write debugging info into .OBJ files for the old Codeview debugger, and he found this item clearly not related to his search, but of possible interest to friends of VAXen: http://research.compaq.com/SRC/m3sources/html/codeview/src/oldCodeView.m3.ht ml get it while you can, I don't think this site is meant for the perusal of mere mortals... -dq From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 15 08:57:08 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: >In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves >to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't >avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too >high. It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in listing fees, sales percentages, etc. And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either. The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of Greed" in the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the immense size they are today, I think I can say with confidence that it's just "not fun" any more. When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they charge a percentage of the sale. I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 09:14:37 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Looking for F13 keycap for Wyse 50 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE15@TEGNTSERVER> Anybody out there got a dead Wyse 50 keyboard from which they could spare a keycap for F13? tia, -doug quebbeman From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 15 09:35:29 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > The subject line above might be a bit misleading. > In the short time I've been subscribed to the list, > I've seen a lot of negative criticism of E-Bay, or > rather, of trying to buy things found on E-Bay. That's right, and for good reason. > The criticisms all seem to concern how much an > item on E-Bay ends up costing. What I guess I > haven't seen said here is an acknowledgement > that the high prices are a result of parties > bidding against each other. I realize that in That's the reason it's unpopular and referred to as e-bilk. Please allow me to explain. For years (at least a decade), many of us became used to seeing things advertised at a certain price on Usenet newsgroups, or place "wanted" ads in the newsgroups. Prices were often seen as "[some random price] or best offer." When we found what we were looking for, the first one to reply to a posting was usually the one who got what was advertised, and, we could haggle with the seller over the price and usually pay a fair price for something or get it at a very low price... sometimes for the cost of shipping. A lot of times, this stuff was basically surplus from some company wanting to get rid of stuff or someone cleaning out their garage of stuff that would have otherwise gone out as garbage. Then, along came a few people who decided to auction stuff of on newsgroups, not content to sell it to the first person who contacted them, then, there was e-bilk, and many of the ads on Usenet disappeared, or else began to announce something that was going to be auctioned off on e-bilk. I think its fair to say that many of us "collect" older systems, particularly those who have been doing it for quite a while, are doing it as a hobby - for fun, not profit. We're not collecting systems like baseball-card, art and coin collectors; we obtain systems for hack value, because we just like playing with them, not because we're looking for investment items. Of course, over the past few years, many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer collecting" seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who are bidding high prices on e-bilk. Now, do you understand? I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 10:11:22 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE19@TEGNTSERVER> ..snip.. > Then, along came a few people who decided to auction stuff of on > newsgroups, not content to sell it to the first person who contacted > them, then, there was e-bilk, and many of the ads on Usenet > disappeared, or else began to announce something that was going to be > auctioned off on e-bilk. ..snip.. > Now, do you understand? I used to do the exact same thing. During a period of marginal income, I sold an Altair 8800 manual I'd been holding on to every since the Popular Electronics article (from which I ordered just the manual). I sold it during an upswing in the popularity of Microsoft stuff, advertising it as "the oldest Microsoft BASIC manual." Asked and got $50 for it. Then recently, when real estate taxes became suddenly due (long story), I needed money fast. I had a 1983 Audi Quattro sitting in the driveway, rusting, a project car that was starting to look like it would never get a timeslice. So I posted it for sale on the Quattro list. I got 5 interested parties within 24 hours; within 48 that became 3 serious inquiries. By 72 hours it was down to two people, one came down that day to examine the car, brought a check with him. I really didn't think he was serious and had been certain the other guy would end up with the car. I was wrong; the guy with the check was serious, I needed the money immediately, so I sold it. The other guy was furious and now won't speak to me. I wish to God I'd sold it in auction format, whether on E-Bay or not. I'd have gotten what I paid for it, plus more, instead of taking a $1500 loss. > I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay > and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding > things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price. R.D., you and others may have more faith that the long-sought- after item in front of you on E-Bay will be available later somewhere else in better shape for even cheaper; I guess I lack faith. When I see what I want and I want it badly enough, I'll pay the going rate to get it. Sometimes I regret it. I do understand taking a stand; I won't eat at the McDonald's that's closest to my office because one day I went there and a busload of school children were on some kind of field trip and being served to the exclusion of adults with 30-minute lunch breaks. The adults supervising the children, and those running the store, could not only not imagine why I was upset, but thought I was out of place for even suggesting that they should have scheduled their trip for another part of the day. I don't like the way they do business so I won't do business with them. Nyah. But I love the new McExtra or whatever it's called and I gotta drive way outta my way to get one because I've chosen to take this stand. Maybe someday, E-Bay will piss me off enough I'll take my business elsewhere. But for now, if I don't like the price, I just don't bid. regards, doug quebbeman From kenn at bluetree.ie Thu Jun 15 10:11:45 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > looking for investment items. Of course, over the past few years, > many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer collecting" > seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect > computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the > entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing > what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who > are bidding high prices on e-bilk. And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time. Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately. Vultures... Later, Kenn From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 15 11:09:27 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE19@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Now, do you understand? > > I used to do the exact same thing. During a period of marginal It seems that we're both much more in agreement with this situation than I realized; we both understand the usefulness of Usenet and how much fun it could be to purchase things at bargain prices and haggle over prices. On the other hand, I can understand the neeed for a seller to try to maximize his gains from the sale of an item, particularly in cases such as your Audi which was a restoration project. Let's say someone purchased a rare DataGobbler Model XYZ9, that was a rusting hulk, missing various ICs, wires disconnected, smashed light bulbs, etc. and spend years reverse engineering it, sanding and re-painting the chasisto make it look like new, finding replacement components, reconnecting everything, and writing some rather neat hacks to run on it. To sell that to a haggling buyer on Usenet at some low price would not be sensible; the restorer would most likely want, and deserve, to get a very good price in order to part with this, whcih would probably be difficult to do, and, hence, auctioning it off to the highest bidder, with the beginning price being set somewhat high, would be, I think, most reasonable. On the other hand, when some random company has just decommissioned a fully depreciated DataGobbler Model XYZ9, and reaped the tax benefits for this depreciation, and is about to toss it into the scrap heap and get perhaps $25 for it as scrap value after someone from the scrap dealer shows up and spends 2 hours taking it apart to move it, and it has no sentimental value, well, then, it seems only logical that it should go to some haggler on usenet to take home as a bargain find. > I wish to God I'd sold it in auction format, whether on > E-Bay or not. I'd have gotten what I paid for it, plus > more, instead of taking a $1500 loss. I'm sorry to hear about your taking that loss. > R.D., you and others may have more faith that the long-sought- > after item in front of you on E-Bay will be available later > somewhere else in better shape for even cheaper; I guess I > lack faith. When I see what I want and I want it badly enough, > I'll pay the going rate to get it. Sometimes I regret it. Yep... I've done that as well, but I've also found great bargains like a free 11/44 system with a printing console, RL02s and a couple of 11/03s with RX02 drives - of course, it took many hours of difficult work to take the dirty, dusty, systems apart, get them home, etc. ...and, one day I may get the 11/44 running again, as soon as I fix a CPU board problem, once I find probes/pods for my Gould logic analyzer (a cheap hamfest find)... anyone know where to find these? > I do understand taking a stand; I won't eat at the McDonald's > that's closest to my office because one day I went there and > a busload of school children were on some kind of field trip > and being served to the exclusion of adults with 30-minute > lunch breaks. The adults supervising the children, and those > running the store, could not only not imagine why I was upset, > but thought I was out of place for even suggesting that they > should have scheduled their trip for another part of the day. That was most inconsiderate of the store; they could have had a couple of registers open to serve the adults as well as serving the busload of children. All were paying customers, but, that bus-trip could have been coordinated with the McDonalds so as to cause the least amount of inconvenience for everyone. > But I love the new McExtra or whatever it's called and I gotta > drive way outta my way to get one because I've chosen to take > this stand. Maybe someday, E-Bay will piss me off enough I'll > take my business elsewhere. But for now, if I don't like the > price, I just don't bid. Of course, we've both probably heard the saying "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face." Regards, R. D. Davis -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 15 11:28:08 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> from Bruce Lane at "Jun 15, 2000 06:57:08 am" Message-ID: <200006151628.JAA20423@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > sense. In other words, you're annoyed that someone might want the same item you do, and might be willing to pay more than you are. Welcome to the world of supply and demand. Of course your words could just as easily apply to the stock market, or the farmers market for that matter. Lack of time is one of the reasons I keep searching acution sites. What I wouldn't give to be able to head to surplus stores more than about three times a year. Some day I hope to live in that fantasy world where people get weekends off. So my options are... 1) On that rare day off spend 8 hours in surplus stores looking for a part I'm probably not going to find, while my wife curses me for not spending that rare day off with her. 2) Do an automated auction search and (eventually) pay $20 for a $5 part. > A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in > listing fees, sales percentages, etc. I see. You are both annoyed that buyers pay too much and that sellers don't get every cent of the inflated price that the buyers pay. > When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, > much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they > charge a percentage of the sale. And the final sales price is likely to be lower because of lesser traffic. The difference will probably be more than what Ebay charges. > I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of > my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. I make it a point not to rule anything out until the bid goes above what I'm willing to pay. -- Eric From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 15 12:21:15 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up > for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time. > > Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately. > > Vultures... Keep in mind that vultures are NOT an Ebay exclusive. People have been doing this sort of selling since the first thing became collectable. I don't like it, but it's life. And to add to that, this bit about people parting machines and selling them as parts on Ebay is way overblown. I think I have seen _three_ sellers that I suspect are doing this*. Out of the thousands that post auctions to the vintage computer category, that's _not_too_bad_. So quit whining about Ebay, everybody. I notice that probably half of the people on this list use it. I'm one of them, both buying and selling. We are not "clueless morons", thank you. *For those that will immediately bring up the guy that sells bits of metal from a Univac all the time - remember once he heard the slander from this list, and it is quite clear that what he has IS only metal. The original machine is long gone. He is not a vulture. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 15 12:36:11 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <01d001bfd6f0$343a6300$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Peter, Sorry for causing any trouble. I only recently joined this group and I wasn't aware of this groups' desire for 80 character line lengths limits. I never intended to suggest that all email revolves around MS Outlook. I use it because it works well for me. I know that the mail readers in Netscape and IE both support autowrap and the ability to size the window as desired. When this approach is used for email, the added > > (or | | or whichever) characters only appear at the beginning of each paragraph, so they don't scramble the contents of the email. So, nesting can continue forever, if desired. I (and others) think this is a big advantage - especially in mail groups where replies bounce back and forth. But, it's just suggestion. BTW, would it cause you any problems to turn wrap on? This way you could handle any line length you encountered. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > On Jun 14, 17:58, Mark Champion wrote: > > > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their > email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired > (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML > compatible email programs have this capability. > > No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML > compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email > does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) > > As you see from the above, you lose the quoting when most software does the > wrapping after the event. It's an accepted convention to keep lines short > -- and I seem to remember we had this discussion a few months ago? > > > The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line > lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each > reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure > everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) > > Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- > and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep > the correct indentations. Particularly since not everyone uses the same > quoting characters (I use "> " but others may use "<" or ":" with or > without a following space). > > > If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will > add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. > > Yes please. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 12:57:15 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE1A@TEGNTSERVER> > > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > > sense. > > In other words, you're annoyed that someone might want the same item you > do, and might be willing to pay more than you are. Welcome to the world > of supply and demand. Of course your words could just as easily apply to > the stock market, or the farmers market for that matter. > > Lack of time is one of the reasons I keep searching acution sites. What > I wouldn't give to be able to head to surplus stores more than about three > times a year. Some day I hope to live in that fantasy world where people > get weekends off. So my options are... 1) On that rare day off spend 8 > hours in surplus stores looking for a part I'm probably not going to find, > while my wife curses me for not spending that rare day off with her. 2) > Do an automated auction search and (eventually) pay $20 for a $5 part. I really envy those of you who live on either the left coast or in an area that's been tech-saavy for a long time; here in the heart of the rust belt, the surplus stores just don't carry hitech electronics. ..snip.. > I make it a point not to rule anything out until the bid goes > above what I'm willing to pay. A prudent rule I concur with. -dq From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 15 14:16:26 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes In-Reply-To: <00e601bfd654$6b02b640$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <000b01bfd6fe$3430e4c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Mark, What makes these Vax tapes? Do they have any software? Do they have content descriptive labels? Are they just ?RMS? filestructured user data? Am I interested ? John A. (DECAACP-itated) From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 15 14:33:03 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 14, 17:58, Mark Champion wrote: > > > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their > email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired > (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML > compatible email programs have this capability. > > No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML > compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email > does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) > > As you see from the above, you lose the quoting when most software does the > wrapping after the event. It's an accepted convention to keep lines short > -- and I seem to remember we had this discussion a few months ago? > > > The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line > lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each > reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure > everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) > > Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- > and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep > the correct indentations. Particularly since not everyone uses the same > quoting characters (I use "> " but others may use "<" or ":" with or > without a following space). > > > If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will > add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. > > Yes please. That is my vote also. - don > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Jun 15 14:38:32 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <047501bfd701$4d6a1440$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Reminds me of the following fortune cookie I once wrote: Religious Malpractice (I) When disaster strikes, sue your local Bishop, Minister, Rabbi or Ayatollah for penal damages. Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:43 AM Subject: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > > the world as a result. > > Yes, but there's safety and safety, and I am not at all convinced that > all safety is a Good Thing. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 15 15:25:32 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: "Mark Champion" "Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation" (Jun 15, 10:36) References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <01d001bfd6f0$343a6300$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <10006152125.ZM8462@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 15, 10:36, Mark Champion wrote: > Peter, > > Sorry for causing any trouble. I only recently joined this group and I > wasn't aware of this groups' desire for 80 character line lengths limits. Well, the convention is actually for less than 80; there's no set rule but commonly-mentioned lengths are between 78 and 72. > I never intended to suggest that all email revolves around MS Outlook. That was just my jibe, not to be taken too personally :-) BTW, though I wrote that "we had this discussion a few months ago", I realise you may not have been on this list at the time. > I use it because it works well for me. I know that the mail readers in > Netscape and IE both support autowrap and the ability to size the > window as desired. When this approach is used for email, the added > > > (or | | or whichever) characters only appear at the beginning of each > paragraph, so they don't scramble the contents of the email. So, nesting > can continue forever, if desired. I (and others) think this is a big > advantage - especially in mail groups where replies bounce back and > forth. But, it's just suggestion. Most people I know would disagree. The idea is to indent paragraphs, a long-cherished system on Usenet and mailing lists. Just as it appears in the paragraph above (you must have turned wrapping on before you composed it -- thanks for that :-)). > BTW, would it cause you any problems to turn wrap on? This way you > could handle any line length you encountered. I *HAD* wrap turned on -- that was my point about losing the indentations. I could see what you typed in 78-column form, but there would be others on this list who wouldn't be able to do that; and when you turn the wrap on, the wrapped lines still don't get indented/quoted as God intended. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 15 16:29:50 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes References: <000b01bfd6fe$3430e4c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <02af01bfd710$d8c4fbe0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> John, The large (700') tapes say "3M - Scotch". The small (600') tapes say "OPUS CriticalFile". They all come in plastic tape holders. These tapes originally contained demo files for Tektronix 4014 terminal emulator products my former company (Northwest Digital Systems) produced. These are data files only, no .exe files. They were created using VMS Copy. The bit density is 1600BPI. Some of the tapes include instructions for reading the tape. The date on this documentation is November, 1988. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 12:16 PM Subject: RE: Anyone interested in VAX tapes > > Mark, > > What makes these Vax tapes? > Do they have any software? > Do they have content descriptive labels? > Are they just ?RMS? filestructured user data? > Am I interested ? > > John A. (DECAACP-itated) From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 15 16:33:21 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Fw: Anyone interested in VAX tapes Message-ID: <02bd01bfd711$565b40a0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Appologies to mailing list - I forgot to embed carridge returns. Here's another copy. John, The large (700') tapes say "3M - Scotch". The small (600') tapes say "OPUS CriticalFile". They all come in plastic tape holders. These tapes originally contained demo files for Tektronix 4014 terminal emulator products my former company (Northwest Digital Systems) produced. These are data files only, no .exe files. They were created using VMS Copy. The bit density is 1600BPI. Some of the tapes include instructions for reading the tape. The date on this documentation is November, 1988. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 12:16 PM Subject: RE: Anyone interested in VAX tapes > > Mark, > > What makes these Vax tapes? > Do they have any software? > Do they have content descriptive labels? > Are they just ?RMS? filestructured user data? > Am I interested ? > > John A. (DECAACP-itated) From elmo at mminternet.com Thu Jun 15 16:34:02 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Free PDP Memory/BA11/Modem Manuals Message-ID: <39494BC9.D2F4372E@mminternet.com> I have the following xeroxed manuals for 11/60 or 11/70 PCM memory systems: micromemory 7405 Product Manual (Electronic Memories & Magnetics, Hawthorne CA) Mostek Memory Systems MK8015 PDP-11 Add-In Memory Technical Manual Plessey Peripherals Systems PM-11D MMU Installation Procedure an original: DEC BA11-K mounting box user's manual and another xerox: Omnitec Telephone Coupler Models 401, 501, 701 (Teletype) Technical Specifications & Maintenance Manual Yours for postage. Regards, Eliot From mrdos at swbell.net Thu Jun 15 17:07:05 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Power Supply Message-ID: <000501bfd716$14009ca0$0c703ed8@compaq> I just picked up an IBM PC Convertible at a thrift shop. It has a battery (dead), but no power supply. Does anyone know the power specifications for it? Thanks, Owen From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 15 17:15:35 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <10006152125.ZM8462@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Peter, > > > > Sorry for causing any trouble. I only recently joined this group and I > > wasn't aware of this groups' desire for 80 character line lengths limits. > > Well, the convention is actually for less than 80; there's no set rule but > commonly-mentioned lengths are between 78 and 72. ________O/_______ O\ > I *HAD* wrap turned on -- that was my point about losing the indentations. > I could see what you typed in 78-column form, but there would be others on > this list who wouldn't be able to do that; and when you turn the wrap on, > the wrapped lines still don't get indented/quoted as God intended. The problem that I frequently encounter, as a pine user, is that what is neatly paragraphed when I read it simply runs off the right margin when I try to reply. Makes a bit of a nuisance when wanting to include the text for reference purposes. I must then re-paragraph the beyond the margin part. - don > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 15 17:08:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <200006151628.JAA20423@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> from Bruce Lane at "Jun 15, 2000 06:57:08 am" Message-ID: >> When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much >>smaller, >> much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they >> charge a percentage of the sale. > >And the final sales price is likely to be lower because of lesser traffic. >The difference will probably be more than what Ebay charges. You MIGHT think so, but actual practice I have seen is that on free listing sites where the traffic is low, the minimum bids and reserves are HIGH. Most of the time set at whatever the person is getting on eBay. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 15 17:00:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> looking for investment items. Of course, over the past few years, >> many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer collecting" >> seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect >> computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the >> entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing >> what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who >> are bidding high prices on e-bilk. > >And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up >for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time. > >Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately. > >Vultures... My my, what a testy group of crybabies. Prepare to cry a LOT more, as eBay and other auctions get up steam to support serious regional auctions. Once the number of bidders and sellers increases enough to support regional, or bigger city, auctions all sorts of stuff people won't currently ship. Evil Idea..... I set up a space at the next big hamfest, say TRW here in Socal, and for a fee/percentage take digital pictures and list items on eBay for people with the auctions to close in 10 days, payment and pickup in person only at the next TRW. Maybe for an additional fee I would even handle the mailing. I know at least one company that is setting up to do this for businesses right now, so it is coming. Most of the people who REALLY need a certain card or cable already have one or the other, WHY should I bundle them together so that a person who MOST likely doesn't need the other half gets it, and somebody else goes without? The same goes for systems, MOST of the people who REALLY need something, want a PART, not the whole box. I sell five times as many systems as parts as I do as systems and I offer BOTH. The way I look at it is that five machines are working again instead of one. RE Vultures. First show me someone, anyone on eBay etc. who is making more than a "paper" profit and minimum wage. Assume I pay nothing for what I sell on eBay at $20, except I drive 40 miles RT to a hamfest and spend 3 hours hunting them down in a batch of say 20, sell 5 a week with an 2 hours of packing and making up shipping labels and packing lists (all five), 20 minutes depositing checks, and an hour to drive to the post office and wait in line to ship. Thats about (2+3+4*(2+.3+1))= 18.2 hours a month, not including time to make up a listing, answer email etc. Ebay fees are $1.50 each (assuming a first bid of $19.99, its 50 cents to list, final value fee of $1.00 about). So gross sales are $400 (20x$20) Less eBay fees of $30 (20x$1.50) Nothing for packing materials etc. Net profit is $370, divided by 18.2 = $20/hour OK better than minimum wage, but its a FAT calculation assuming everything sells, that I find 20 items worth buying, and doesn't include the cost of buying them, miles on the car and the guy who thinks he needs an X, but doesn't know what model his computer is etc. I'd say more but I have to go circle at the post office with the other vultures. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 15 17:28:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Message-ID: >How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've >seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A >DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses >with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... Ah, but do you have a trailer hitch........ Be sure to bring back the dumpster. From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 15 18:42:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <001701bfd723$69fa45e0$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay > At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves > >to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't > >avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too > >high. > > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in > listing fees, sales percentages, etc. > > And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get > me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to > death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least > surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either. > > The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of Greed" in > the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have > some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the immense > size they are today, I think I can say with confidence that it's just "not > fun" any more. > > When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, > much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they > charge a percentage of the sale. > > I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of > my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 15 18:51:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 15, 2000 03:28:19 PM Message-ID: <200006152351.QAA16978@shell1.aracnet.com> > > >How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > >seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > >DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > >with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > Ah, but do you have a trailer hitch........ Be sure to bring back the dumpster. > > ROTFLMAO!!! That's cruel! I'm at work, do you have any idea how hard it was to keep from bursting into laughter? That hurt! Zane From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 15 18:50:08 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <002201bfd724$70cc60a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Gee! I had no idea they had a pricing structure for buyers. The "take" that they claim is pretty low by comparison with sale through consignment at the local surplus electronics store. Moreover, eBay lets you sell whatever you want to sell. I've paid the eBay guys about $10 which I felt was a small cost for getting rid of, and paid for, things I otherwise couldn't even get someone to pick up. I certainly don't find that eBay has "buried" me in anything. Clearly, I was unhappy when one of my items was listed under stuffed animals and found by a lone bidder, who was willing to pay my minimum, which I'd happily have accepted any time. Of course I've not listed dozens of things at once, nor have I ever attempted to buy anything there. The latter, of course, is because I don't want more obsolete computer equipment. Not everybody will understand, much less, agree with, my position on eBay, but, like prostitutes and lawyers, they provide a service that's of use to some. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay > At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves > >to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't > >avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too > >high. > > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in > listing fees, sales percentages, etc. > > And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get > me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to > death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least > surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either. > > The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of Greed" in > the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have > some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the immense > size they are today, I think I can say with confidence that it's just "not > fun" any more. > > When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, > much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they > charge a percentage of the sale. > > I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of > my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > From louiss at gate.net Thu Jun 15 19:17:26 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard In-Reply-To: <200006152351.QAA16978@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200006160017.UAA62778@flathead.gate.net> Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? Louis From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 15 19:59:08 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 10:35 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: >Now, do you understand? > >I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay >and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding >things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price. I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other electronic-oriented swap meets. > > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 15 20:51:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better > name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed > makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and > quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other > electronic-oriented swap meets. You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen people going around buying large quantities of things, indiscriminantly, just to snap them up, apparently to resell on e-bilk or squirrel away in storage... or even to sell them at 200-percent and much higher, mark-ups at the same hamfest. Disgusting. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 15 21:12:19 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Apologies to all... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000615191219.00965ea0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> I think I need a vacation... a -real- one! I apologize for adding fuel to the fire on the E-bay thread. While I may not agree with the way it works all the time, and what it may or may not have done to the retail and swap-meet level surplus scenes, we're stuck with it for better or worse, and I have better uses for my energy than polluting the list with pointless rants about it. Admittedly, I have found it useful. Even now, there's some stuff on there that I could use that has not gathered any bids, and it's less than three days from finishing. On a wider scope, I also apologize for being a lot snappier than normal lately. Whatever's happening in my own head, the residents of CLASSICCMP certainly deserve better than to get dumped on about it. Keep the peace(es). Methinks I'll just lurk for a while. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 15 20:05:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> from "Mark Champion" at Jun 14, 0 05:58:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1065 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/3c4ef0a9/attachment.ksh From transit at lerctr.org Thu Jun 15 23:58:42 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: E-bay, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615191219.00965ea0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: I've been collecting (micro's mostly, Apple, Atari, Coco, etc.) since 1990...I'm more interested in playing around with these machines (even if only a few minutes a year!) than hoarding them and hoping they'll appreciate in value. And yes, I've used E-bay (most of the other internet auction sites really have little, if anything). I've also scoured Usenet and found stuff, usually from people who don't want to bother with E-bay's procedures for sellers, for whatever reason. I occasionally go to the thrift stores, but I haven't seen a whole lot other than bits and pieces of 286's and 386's (I'm in the LA area), and they're often overpriced ($50 for a 286? In 2000? Gimme a break!) There's also the TRW swap meet in El Segundo, but I haven't been there for a while. (It used to be pretty good, but the last time I was there, Oct 99 or so, it seemed to be PC cards and motherboards, old test equipment, and the same guys selling the same outdated ham tranceivers, for about $200-300 more than they're probably worth. Maybe it'll be a bit better this month...) Has E-bay sucked the thrift stores and hamfests dry? Possibly part of the reason, although another reason might be that there is only a finite amount of systems and people interested in them, and neither number is exactly growing, if you catch my drift. So a lot of stuff gets tossed out due to ignorance. From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 00:42:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU Message-ID: Today, I became the owner of an HP-1000E. :-) One slight problem: I'm told that the PSU is bad. Upon removing the cover from the PSU, I noticed that there are three plug-in boards in the PSU, and one empty PCB connector, the second one back from the front. Is this circuit board supposed to be missing? I've not teted the PSU yet, as I didn't know if doing so with this (optional? a regulator for a voltage this system doesn't need?) board removed will damage it. Is it safe to power it up with this board missing? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Jun 16 00:51:43 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX Message-ID: <20000616005143.X6262@mrbill.net> (I apologize if this breaks the 10-year rule; I *think* this box is about as old as a SS1, or darn close to it - couldnt find a date of mfg..) I've got a barebones (no HD, no RAM, no kb/mouse) HP/Apollo 715/33 available in Austin, Texas. You can find specifics on it at http://parisc.workstations.org/systems.html and http://parisc.workstations.org/systems/715_scorpio.html Nice little PA-RISC box; however, I just have no use at all for any HP stuff. Will trade for anything DEC/VAX related (literally, anything - make a halfway serious offer, you might be surprised) or will even possibly give it away if someone has a good enough need/reason why I should. I just need it out of the way. I'm looking for VAXstation (3100, 4000-VLC, etc) machines and hardware, BTW. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 00:48:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better >name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed >makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and >quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other >electronic-oriented swap meets. I completely disagree, the decline, if it is "real" is from the wholesale dumping of containers full of old computers to Asia. I talk to a lot of the sellers at hamfests, and while a large number of them have access, VERY few have actually ever sold anything over the net, let alone via auction. What is happening is that the container packers are hitting up the hamfest sellers sources with better offers to haul away everything. The other factor, and this is a real sideways one, is that a pickup truck full of junk isn't selling like it used to at the hamfests. Too many of the guys are packing up 90% of what they brought and taking it back home. Before just about anything would sell, and now the buyers are much more saavy, some items sell quickly, others are never going to move. Buyers have a better idea of value than the sellers, and some values are DOWN due to internet sales. Many of the buyers are just like I am too, buying at hamfests to sell on the net, and that makes us much more cautious after awhile at how much we spend, because the net is MUCH more unforgiving about what won't sell. Two factors, new guys buying up stuff to pack in containers, and old dogs loosing interest in fighting for the bones to sell. Most of the blame I would put on the big scrappers though, as that is where 90% of the goods are going. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 00:09:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: References: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: I was digging in the bone yard of a surplus place (where the nobody would buy this carcai are assembled before a bulk sale as junk), and found a Miniscribe 6086 (I think) hard drive setting in a old 386. Looked like it had 3 connectors, something smaller than IDE, a slotted edge connection like a floppy drive, and maybe some sort of power connector. Full height 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might even be a couple of them. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 00:50:13 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: VCF 4.0 is tentatively scheduled for Saturday, September 30 - Sunday, October 1. The venue this year in the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose, California. More details to come! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 03:08:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: <20000616005143.X6262@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Part of my sweaty digging the other day turned up a HP 82161A data cassette drive with power supply and most likely bad batteries. Please save me from the bad old eBay by sending $10 plus shipping for it. Serious begging/logic/waving$ only regarding the little box with 6 data cassettes, which I am guessing will be dandy in my HX-20. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 04:49:31 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (R. D. Davis) References: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <14665.63531.641636.507489@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 15, R. D. Davis wrote: > > I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better > > name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed > > makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and > > quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other > > electronic-oriented swap meets. > > You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things > seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The > last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen ...but this has been going on for years! I've always attributed it to the unfortunate proliferation of PCs. Most of the good hamfests have turned into new-windoze-hardwarefests. I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass windoze hardware that would better be sold via mail-order...which is all I see at hamfests nowadays. I, for one, absolutely LOVE eBay. That's where I find all the radio gear I'm looking for that doesn't show up at hamfests anymore because of the damned windoze lemmings!! -Dave McGuire From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Jun 16 06:58:23 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <20000616005143.X6262@mrbill.net> from Bill Bradford at "Jun 16, 2000 00:51:43 am" Message-ID: <200006161158.HAA31077@bg-tc-ppp298.monmouth.com> > (I apologize if this breaks the 10-year rule; I *think* this > box is about as old as a SS1, or darn close to it - couldnt > find a date of mfg..) > > I've got a barebones (no HD, no RAM, no kb/mouse) > HP/Apollo 715/33 available in Austin, Texas. It's more as old as a SS2... Nice box. We used them at Fort Monmouth and they were quite nice. They seemed to eat a SS2 for lunch and were very reliable. > Will trade for anything DEC/VAX related (literally, anything - > make a halfway serious offer, you might be surprised) or will > even possibly give it away if someone has a good enough > need/reason why I should. I just need it out of the way. > > I'm looking for VAXstation (3100, 4000-VLC, etc) machines and > hardware, BTW. You'll get my VaxStation 3100 when you pry it out of my cold dead hands 8-) Sorry. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 07:28:05 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> > Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching > for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. > Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? Louis- Not meaning to be rude, but even when they work, an Apple /// is kaput. Are you aware of how buggy those things were? Did you ever do any extensive programming for one? Again, sorry, I truly mean no offense, but I grew to loathe Apple for making this machine, and it's a wonder that I was able to overcome that loathing and buy a Mac. -doug quebbeman From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Jun 16 14:07:16 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-00, you wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: >> I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better >> name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed >> makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and >> quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other >> electronic-oriented swap meets. > > You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things > seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The > last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen > people going around buying large quantities of things, > indiscriminantly, just to snap them up, apparently to resell on e-bilk > or squirrel away in storage... or even to sell them at 200-percent and > much higher, mark-ups at the same hamfest. Disgusting. I've noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff. On the other hand, used PC's are being scalped at higher prices than new. Maybe we've learned this from the oil companies? > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 16 08:25:15 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query In-Reply-To: <39462A01.D9F96D50@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:33:05 +0100 Paul Williams wrote: > Whoops. Having just been home and checked, I find that my programmer is > a PP39. However, if you think the documentation for _that_ might be > useful, let me know. Just in case anybody else has one, I have a Stag PPZ Universal Programmer with manuals for the EPROM and PAL plug-in modules. The programmer itself is a classic computer, since it's a 6809 machine with a little built-in CRT display. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 16 09:18:17 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> At 03:00 PM 6/15/00 -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >First show me someone, anyone on eBay etc. who is making more than a >"paper" profit and minimum wage. >So gross sales are $400 (20x$20) >Less eBay fees of $30 (20x$1.50) >Nothing for packing materials etc. >Net profit is $370, divided by 18.2 = $20/hour I imagine there are plenty of "professional" eBay sellers. Pick a niche and examine the listings, and you'll see the same sellers with links to their existing niche web site or estate-sale-buyer or surplus-buyer site. Presumably, they've already found a way and a wage to make their living doing this, and eBay just gives them a bigger market. One of the secrets to the good life is realizing that time is the most precious commodity. From a time versus dollars standpoint, going to a ham radio rally probably doesn't make much sense. It might give great personal satisfaction, of course. Any wealth I've accumulated doesn't prevent me from enjoying a great find from a Dumpster. Even given eBay's fees, given 2:1, 3:1, 6:1 or better margins, it can be sufficiently interesting for the hobbyist not to mention the professionals. The concept has infected my brain. I've tried to restrain myself to the 5:1 or better re-sales and speculation. Wish I had a wireless Palm with a link to eBay so I could check the price of items while at the surplus sale... You can't beat the variety. I look for the Yogi Bear doll I had in the 60s, and presto, there it is for $40, in several permutations. Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing away the content that has been created for them for free. They should archive the picture. But then I don't think Dejanews.com is run right, either. Sheesh. - John From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 16 09:50:25 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez's message of "Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:55:19 -0400" References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > I guess that the first thing that I have to do now that I tested the > power supply and verified that the machine (seems to) turn on, > is to build a serial console cable for this. I have several cables > that will fit the BACI boards, but the connectors at the other > end have been cut off. Does anybody have the pin out for the > finger pads in the front of the BACI boards? OK, so this morning I have in front of me a couple different versions of HP part number 12966-90001: HP 12966A Buffered Asynchronous Data Communications Interface Installation, Service, and Reference Manual. The datacomm card-edge connector is called P1 in this manual, and it's described in terms of letter codes A-F, H, J-N, P, R-Z, AA, and BB; and then numbers 1-24. I'm guessing that these correspond to sides of the board/connector but I'm not sure which side is the letters and which is the numbers. Some help I am, huh? It looks like HP typically shipped one of several cables with the board, depending on what option the board was ordered with. What's copied below is the configuration of the "default" cable, p/n 12966-60004, and which I think is appropriate for a DTE-flavored RS-232 device (like a terminal) with no hardware flow control. pin Signal name Device pin RS-232C ckt Source A Signal Ground (EIA) 7 AB Common B F C CA Inhibit D Transmit Data (EIA) 3 BA Intfc E Request to Send (EIA) CA F Data Terminal Ready (EIA) CD H Ext Freq J F/4 K F/8 L F/16 M F/2 N P/Ext P BSBA R Ext Clock 16 Device S Received Data (EIA) 2 BB Device T Secondary Line Sig Det (EIA) SCF U (spare) (EIA) V Secondary Receive Data (EIA) SBB W BSCA X Clear to Send (EIA) CB Y Data Set Ready (EIA) CC Z Ring Indicator (EIA) CE AA Receive Line Signal Detect (EIA) CF BB Signal Ground 1 Signal Ground 2 CCNT 7 3 SXX (Secondary Chan) (EIA) SBA/SCA 4 BSCF 5 SIN 6 Xmit Data In 7 TTY OUT 8 +5 volts 9 TTY IN 10 +12 volts 5,6 Intfc 11 UCLK0 12 CLKP2 13 CLKP1 14 CLKP0 15 CLKP3 16 Recd Data Out 17 BSBB 18 DIAG 19 Spare 20 Run Disable 21 BSXX 22 UCLK 23 -12 volts 24 Signal Ground There's a rather complex set of cross-connects in the card-edge connector's hood: (A, N, 1) (F, X, Y, AA) (J, K) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) Other cables described in the manual: 12966-60008, for HP 264X terminal 12966-60006, for modem 12966-60007, for HP 2749B teleprinter 12966-60010, for HP 2621 terminal 12966-60011, for HP 7221 plotter 12966-60012, for HP 264X terminal to HP 7221A plotter (???) The cables for modem, 2749B, and 7221 look like they are intended to go to something like a DB25 connector. The cables for 264X and 2621 terminal look like they're intended to go to the datacomm connectors on those devices (264X would be a different card-edge, 2621 would be an Amphenol 50-pin connector that looks like the "Centronics" SCSI connector). The cables can be wired to provide for an external clock source (-60008 does this) or to provide a fixed? baud rate for the interface. If you see connections to pins 12-15 and/or N that is what is going on here. The -60004, -60006, and -60007 cables are shipped configured for program control (i.e. code running on the processor can set the interface's baud rate). I'm going to be lazy for now and not key that table in. Maybe later if you want it. How's that for too much info? -Frank McConnell From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 09:55:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (OT) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE21@TEGNTSERVER> > You can't beat the variety. I look for the Yogi Bear doll I had > in the 60s, and presto, there it is for $40, in several permutations. For me, it's the Big Bruiser(tm) tow truck by Marx. Haven't yet seen one with a) all the parts and b) the same color pickup truck (towed vehicle) that I had, but sooner ot later... -dq From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 09:09:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14665.63531.641636.507489@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see > rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old > Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power > amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi > antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and then died. :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 10:12:10 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > archive the picture. Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't want the legal hassles, basically. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 16 10:14:11 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <394A4443.865E18D2@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > Even given eBay's fees, given 2:1, 3:1, 6:1 or better margins, it > can be sufficiently interesting for the hobbyist not to mention the > professionals. The concept has infected my brain. I've tried to > restrain myself to the 5:1 or better re-sales and speculation. > Wish I had a wireless Palm with a link to eBay so I could check > the price of items while at the surplus sale... 10:1 or greater is what I look for to encourage me to sell stuff that I have collected (and have duplicates of) while .5:1 or better is what I look for to just try and get rid of stuff. The 10:1 allows me to get more "stuff" :). From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 10:28:35 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have > hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills > because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff. I don't think its going into landfills, but is getting recycled. Many more electronics/high-tech companies these days have contracts with recyclers, so less goes home with the employees. I too have noticed a drop in the number of interesting computer things at the fests, but I am chalking that up to the idea that the classic minis and micros are past their "take to the hamfest" portion of their lifecycle, and now in the :few survivors still in garages" portion. We seem now to have XTs and ATs taking their spot at the fests. In time they will get scarce, replaced by 386s, 486s, G3s, SPARCstations*, then Pentiums, Ultras, etc.. *The influx of super cheap workstations at the fests are quite a welcome sight, however. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 10:37:04 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Sellam Ismail) References: <14665.63531.641636.507489@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14666.18848.853438.636413@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see > > rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old > > Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power > > amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi > > antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass > > Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and > then died. > > :) 8-< NOOOOO!!! -Dave McGuire From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 16 10:43:27 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Computing History CD-ROM Message-ID: Anyone know anything about the CD referred to at this link: http://members.aol.com/HistoryCD/HOC.html Is this worth having? --Pat. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Jun 16 10:57:40 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <004d01bfd7ab$99e0f6e0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 9:29 AM Subject: RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay > >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't >want the legal hassles, basically. > Given that collecting (of anything) is a very large industry, they're missing a chance to _make_ a lot of money. Every bookstore has dozens of price guides to collectibles in it, which sell for upwards of $40 each. A lot of those are based on the results of a few hundred auctions a year. eBay could "publish" (whether in print or electronically) guides based on thousands of auctions a year. If they published electronically, they could charge a nominal fee for access to the price guide - say 5 cents per successful search. They already have a structure in place to bill all of their sellers. It would be easy to require that anyone searching the price guides register as a seller (and provide credit card info) first. Then you bill them for their accumulated search charges monthly, or whenever they have another sales transaction. I don't understand your point about eBay wanting to avoid "legal hassles" over auctions gone bad. They are just the middleman, all of their contracts state that they are not responsible for the authenticity, condition, delivery, etc. of the items. The buyer and seller voluntarily assume all the risk. I don't see how providing a database of past transactions involves them any further in a legal sense. Just my 2 cents (Cdn). Mark Gregory From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 16 12:00:47 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <200006161601.LAA90464@opal.tseinc.com> In a message dated Fri, 16 Jun 2000 8:33:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Douglas Quebbeman writes: << > Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching > for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. > Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? Louis- Not meaning to be rude, but even when they work, an Apple /// is kaput. Are you aware of how buggy those things were? Did you ever do any extensive programming for one? Again, sorry, I truly mean no offense, but I grew to loathe Apple for making this machine, and it's a wonder that I was able to overcome that loathing and buy a Mac. -doug quebbeman >> sheesh, just because it wasnt the greatest of designs doesnt give you carte blanche to disparage the person wanting to fix one. I have a /// that still boots off its profile drive, but i wonder when it will stop working. 2 years ago i gave a nonworking /// to a friend who ebayed it. he actually got $60 for it. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 11:08:28 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <004d01bfd7ab$99e0f6e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: > Given that collecting (of anything) is a very large industry, they're > missing a chance to _make_ a lot of money. Very true. > I don't understand your point about eBay wanting to avoid "legal hassles" > over auctions gone bad. They are just the middleman, all of their contracts > state that they are not responsible for the authenticity, condition, > delivery, etc. of the items. The buyer and seller voluntarily assume all > the risk. I don't see how providing a database of past transactions > involves them any further in a legal sense. Auction houses are always getting sucked into legal problems - even if it is just to be a witness (expert or otherwise). With Ebay's volume, they would have to have a large expensive legal department just to deal with it all. It seems to me that Ebay has already had some massive legal headaches concerning Nazi collectables in Europe. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 11:15:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Thu, Jun 15, 2000 at 08:30:08AM +0000 References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000616121559.A26237@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 15, 2000 at 08:30:08AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML >compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email >does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) Hear hear! >Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- Definitely. Sometimes it gets silly if there are 10 levels of nesting at once, but usually that's just because people are quoting everything in sight instead of having the consideration to trim out the parts that are no longer relevant. So the multi-nested stuff shouldn't be there to begin with. >and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep >the correct indentations. Actually my little homebrew editor has something like that, it will rejustify a block of text, and remove/reinsert any specified prefix string around the operation. I use it for reformatting comment blocks in assembly language source (i.e. fill to the right margin while preserving the "; " or "; " prefix on each line). I've always meant to write a stand-alone UNIX version of that command, for just this reason (to use instead of "{!}fmt -80" in vi). Putting a quote characters only at the beginning of paragraphs is really annoying IMHO. It just doesn't catch your eye the way having a prefix on each line does, and even if the mailer or pager or terminal handles does wrapping (not necessarily at word boundaries) while you're displaying the msg (which BTW gets a very distracting series of reverse-video plus signs in the "mutt" mailer I use), that doesn't help you when you're in the editor composing a reply to the msg. At least in some editors, you only see 80 columns of long lines at a time, so in order to read the paragraph you have to arrow your way through the whole line. Don't get me started on HTML in email! If the person *created* the message by simply typing a few lines of ASCII text, why should we see it any other way? Who said it's supposed to look like a magazine article. It's especially annoying in plain text mailers, where the actual message text is dwarfed by the header/trailer boilerplate and pointless font changes and line after line of   strings. And what's up with the quoted-printable crap with all the equals signs? It's nice to have a way to represent funny characters, but most of the time you don't need that and even if you do you're taking a gamble that the person receiving the msg has a terminal which can display that character. Meanwhile the plain text is all screwed up, especially if it contains real live equals signs, and some mailers seem to convert every ocurrence of the letter "F" to "=46", well I suppose that's a workaround for the UNIX ">From " atrocity which is another constant annoyance. And if you're going to put "soft" line breaks into the text, at least put them at the actual line breaks!!! Boy, I miss the days when the pinnacle of "letter quality" output was to make it seem as if the author had taken the trouble to type the letter up on a real live typewriter. John Wilson D Bit From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 11:33:40 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <20000616121559.A26237@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Don't get me started on HTML in email! If the person *created* the message by > simply typing a few lines of ASCII text, why should we see it any other way? > Who said it's supposed to look like a magazine article. I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by 99 percent of the population? Is anyone writing mailers for the old systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 16 11:41:34 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see > > rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old > > Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power > > amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi > > antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and > then died. Those guys are accumulators, not collectors. Typically, they're selling stuff that they got while it was still current, and that they got for its usefulness, not collectibility. They don't REALLY want to part with any of it. Many die before selling all the stuff. You wouldn't want to know what the estate does with "all that worthless junk". The excutor of my will has informal instructions to hold a garage sale and announce it here. We are not all dead yet. As to the Taiwan new stuff: are you familiar with the process of "eutrophication" that lakes go through? It seems like any flea market that is around long enough attracts permanent vendors of new stuff. More and more; until they choke out everything else. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 12:09:18 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation (William Donzelli) References: <20000616121559.A26237@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. I still insist that it has nothing to do with "old" or "new" computers...or even "old" or "new" mailers! "Get a modern computer" doesn't do the trick...I can spin up X on a twenty-year-old MicroVAX-II and run state-of-the-art GUI-fied email software (kmail, vm under xemacs, whatever you want!) that will deal with HTML email. It really does seem to me that it's very much a Windoze/non-Windoze thing. Next time someone emails you HTML crap, look at the headers. It *all* comes from Windoze boxes. On the other hand, everyone I associate with around here (home and work) uses Unix boxes of one form or another...for the most part, they're all running perfectly *NEW* modern hardware, running current, state-of-the-art software...and I get NO HTML crap from any of them. Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 11:13:25 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I've noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have > > hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills > > because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff. > > I don't think its going into landfills, but is getting recycled. Many > more electronics/high-tech companies these days have contracts with > recyclers, so less goes home with the employees. > > I too have noticed a drop in the number of interesting computer things at > the fests, but I am chalking that up to the idea that the classic minis > and micros are past their "take to the hamfest" portion of their > lifecycle, and now in the :few survivors still in garages" portion. We seem > now to have XTs and ATs taking their spot at the fests. In time they will > get scarce, replaced by 386s, 486s, G3s, SPARCstations*, then Pentiums, > Ultras, etc.. I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. They don't grow them anymore. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 11:15:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. Sure. But we can make it a prerequisite here in our own little sheltered classic computer world that anyone wanting to participate shall use no HTML in e-mail. Agreed? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 11:19:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and > > then died. > > Those guys are accumulators, not collectors. Typically, they're selling > stuff that they got while it was still current, and that they got for its > usefulness, not collectibility. They don't REALLY want to part with any > of it. > > Many die before selling all the stuff. You wouldn't want to know what the > estate does with "all that worthless junk". The excutor of my will has > informal instructions to hold a garage sale and announce it here. > > We are not all dead yet. Sorry, Fred. I didn't mean to excelerate your demise ;) I'm just commenting that the supply of stuff runs out. It's the same reason you don't see Hollerith machines and Grammaphones at the ham fests. They all got sold years ago. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mark.champion at am.sony.com Fri Jun 16 12:21:49 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: Message-ID: <003901bfd7b7$5e0f20e0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Tony, As I said, you are right about the EGM. It was an option. No argument. I was only trying to help the original poster. Regarding this off-topic email issue, I say, "do whatever you want." I will do things your way when I post here. But, I hasten to add that the comments I've seen here make clear to me that I have failed to explain why wrap works fine for me. I only get the > > stuff at the beginning of paragraphs. I can cut out paragraphs and paste without the tedious editing. But, I repeat to eveyone... "Do whatever you want." Also, I never put any HTML in my email posts. But I receive email containing HTML everyday. So how can you say HTML has no place in email? If you ever need to imbed formatted data in your email such as a table or use any character attributes such as color or bold, you need HTML. (Yes, you can use attachments or use some other work-around, but that's rather inconvenient.) Only my opinions. Mark Champion mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > > > > Tony, > > > > I believe you are correct regarding the EGM. Thanks for clarifying that > > point. > > Well, I've never seen one of these terminals, but that's what the manaul > says... > > > > > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their > > email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired > > (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML > > compatible email programs have this capability. > > This is not meant to be a flame, but I am tired, so it may come out like > one. If so, I apologise. > > HTML is a markup language. It's not strictly a formating language, and > IMHO it has no place at all in e-mail. Period. > > Not all e-mail programs (or the editors that they call) have any > word-wrap capability. Of those that do, as soon as the reply-marking '>' > characters are inserted, it's essential to preserve line breaks so that > those markers always come at the left of the physical line. Otherwise the > mail soon becomes totally unreadable. Word-wrap therefore makes little > sense for e-mail. > > -tony From emu at ecubics.com Fri Jun 16 12:35:20 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: Message-ID: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Talk to the remaining one percent ? ;-) > Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. Don't care about the 99% anyway, and what you're saying is, that I need a 2 GHz Strontium, running Winblows to talk to this group tomorrow ? PFffft. just my .00002 cents, emanuel From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 12:39:40 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE23@TEGNTSERVER> > sheesh, just because it wasnt the greatest of designs doesnt > give you carte blanche to disparage the person wanting to fix > one. I have a /// that still boots off its profile drive, but > i wonder when it will stop working. 2 years ago i gave a > nonworking /// to a friend who ebayed it. he actually got $60 for it. Nothing I wrote was disparaging to Louis. I never had trouble getting one to boot, I had trouble with it working as any reasonable person with programming skills would expect a computer to operate. Let me elaborate. I was developing a job costing package for a small local construction firm. We didn't have one to do development on, so I had to work on the customer's machine. While I understand that SOS (wasn't that the name of the OS, Apple SOS, pronounced "Applesauce"?) did have other development environments available, Pascal coming to mind, I was directed to use the native Basic interpreter. Well, I'd be typing in my code, when randomly, without warning or notification, the /// would pick a point in my source code, and either delete a chunk out of the middle, or from a point to the end of the code. And I mean randomly; it would truncate in the middle of a line number! Clearly, what was happening is that I was overflowing the interpreter's symbol table. But nuking my source code is not an acceptable way of informing me as a user that it could not handle what I was asking of it. Hell, at least it could have started beeping when I'd try to enter a new line of code. So I'd start saving to disk every 5 lines. Since I compose to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some programmers compose directly into thr machine), at least I didn't _really_ lose anything except peace of mind. As I said, I had to work at the customer site, and since they had to use the machine during the work day, that meant I had to work the remaining hours. It became customary for me to still be there in the morning when they'd come in, although I tried like hell to be out by 6am. One morning around 8am, one of the owners asked me "how much longer it would take", to which I replied "it would've been done by now if you'd bought a different computer." That was my last day on the project and if I could do it all over again, I'd have defenestrated the computer before his very eyes. 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. cheers, -doug q From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 12:43:36 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > It really does seem to me that it's very much a Windoze/non-Windoze > thing. Next time someone emails you HTML crap, look at the headers. > It *all* comes from Windoze boxes. On the other hand, everyone I > associate with around here (home and work) uses Unix boxes of one > form or another...for the most part, they're all running perfectly > *NEW* modern hardware, running current, state-of-the-art > software...and I get NO HTML crap from any of them. Hey, its a Windoze world, like it or not, and the public follows it. Same with Macs. This list may be heavily slanted towards older systems (understatement of the day), and I certainly can see why most of us do not want HTML, but really, this is now in the minority. Most mailing lists I am on do not discourage HTML at all - I just have to live with it. Same with mail from my non-computer friends. I figure that one of these days I will actually start using a modern mailer, rather than moan about it. > Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic > computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing > things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. Well...yes it is. I would venture to say that these days, more use it than not. There really is no technical need to restrict HTML in email - the net is not nearly as choked as it used to be, so the argument of "wasted bandwith" is not really valid, and almost everyone has the ability to read HTML email as it is to be viewed, including most of the Unix people. If nearly everyone can read it without heavy demands on the net - what's wrong with it? William Dnzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 12:48:05 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Sure. But we can make it a prerequisite here in our own little sheltered > classic computer world that anyone wanting to participate shall use no > HTML in e-mail. I agree. The list, however, is about the most reasonable place you would want tomake that restriction because of the large amount of ancient machine in use by listmembers. If you tried to pull the same thing on the ice fishing list, you would probably catch hell. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 12:51:30 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was digging in the bone yard of a surplus place (where the nobody would > buy this carcai are assembled before a bulk sale as junk), and found a > Miniscribe 6086 (I think) hard drive setting in a old 386. Looked like it > had 3 connectors, something smaller than IDE, a slotted edge connection > like a floppy drive, and maybe some sort of power connector. Full height > 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might > even be a couple of them. I find no listing for a Miniscribe 6086. However, there were a 6085 and a 6985E which were 71mb and ST506 MFM and ESDI RLL respectively. - don From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 12:53:20 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> Message-ID: > Don't care about the 99% anyway, and what you're saying is, that I need > a 2 GHz Strontium, running Winblows to talk to this group tomorrow ? No, not at all. The question I posed is if anyone is writing mailers for the older systems so they can handle HTML properly. Of course, if you want to hind under a rock, you can do that also. I like to think that I have a life out side classic computers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 13:08:04 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > Don't get me started on HTML in email! If the person *created* the message by > > simply typing a few lines of ASCII text, why should we see it any other way? > > Who said it's supposed to look like a magazine article. > > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Fortunately, 99% of that 99% do not submit e-mail to this venue. > Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no Right! Bloatware e-mail to go along with bloatware OSs and applications. - don > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Fri Jun 16 13:19:45 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX References: <200006161158.HAA31077@bg-tc-ppp298.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000616181452.28753.qmail@hotmail.com> I vote that workstation hardware older than 7 years old counts as a classic, if it's oddball enough. PA-RISC is pretty oddball in my opinion. They run OpenSTEP well, though. Dittos on the VAXstations... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pechter" To: Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: Re: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX > > (I apologize if this breaks the 10-year rule; I *think* this > > box is about as old as a SS1, or darn close to it - couldnt > > find a date of mfg..) > > > > I've got a barebones (no HD, no RAM, no kb/mouse) > > HP/Apollo 715/33 available in Austin, Texas. > > It's more as old as a SS2... Nice box. We used them at Fort Monmouth > and they were quite nice. > > They seemed to eat a SS2 for lunch and were very reliable. > > > Will trade for anything DEC/VAX related (literally, anything - > > make a halfway serious offer, you might be surprised) or will > > even possibly give it away if someone has a good enough > > need/reason why I should. I just need it out of the way. > > > > I'm looking for VAXstation (3100, 4000-VLC, etc) machines and > > hardware, BTW. > > You'll get my VaxStation 3100 when you pry it out of my cold > dead hands 8-) > > Sorry. > > > > > Bill > > > > -- > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 13:24:20 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something > simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, it's "trash".... > They don't grow them anymore. Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 13:28:07 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > If you tried to pull the same thing on the ice fishing list, you would > probably catch hell. I'm on an Electronic Organ list, an Amtrak Advocacy list, a Web for Librarians list and a couple others I forgot about. Generally, non- ascii e-mail is discouraged on all of those lists, with varying fervor (maybe one or two html messages go through uncommented-on, but occasionally the list manager sends a message "Please turn off HTML in your e-mail programs". I use Pine which doesn't handle HTML gracefully (that's to say, it can't read it, it makes me go save the file and look at it with some other program. That shouldn't be necessary, but...) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 13:31:20 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation (William Donzelli) References: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14666.29304.794967.182577@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > > Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic > > computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing > > things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. > > Well...yes it is. I would venture to say that these days, more use it > than not. I'm not sure I'd agree...but then I work in a company full of Unix boxes and live in a neighborhood full of Unix people. But that's the reality I see when I look out the window. Microsoft isn't universally run everywhere. Sure, every suit has a Windows box on his or her desk...but just as there's more to the human race than suits, there's more to the world of computing than Windows. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 12:38:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > There really is no technical need to restrict HTML in email - the net is > not nearly as choked as it used to be, so the argument of "wasted > bandwith" is not really valid, and almost everyone has the ability to read Ahh, William, so spoiled by your high speed net connection :) Think about the poor slobs in other parts of the world who still have to pay by the minute. I pity them as I download 20 megabyte AVIs over my cable modem paying only $39.95 (plus franchise tax) a month ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 13:42:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > I still insist that it has nothing to do with "old" or "new" > computers...or even "old" or "new" mailers! Yes; lots of people are running brand new systems running different varieties of UNIX, not to mention the much smaller number of new systems running other non-microsoft operating systems that rely upon regular ASCII text for e-mail. When one thinks about it, does it really make much sense to send anything other than text in e-mail? After all, when I get out my fountain pen and stationary to write someone a letter, it doesn't have various fonts, graphics, etc. in it - which in no way makes it less useful as a form of communication. Also, plain old ASCII text e-mail takes less space to store, and searching through it is quicker when one needs to find something ten years later. > Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic > computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing > things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. Well said! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 13:42:58 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation (William Donzelli) References: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > > Don't care about the 99% anyway, and what you're saying is, that I need > > a 2 GHz Strontium, running Winblows to talk to this group tomorrow ? > > No, not at all. The question I posed is if anyone is writing mailers for > the older systems so they can handle HTML properly. Again, is this a blanket statement that anything that isn't an Intel box running Windows is an "older system"? As to the question...yes, many modern mailers for non-Windows systems (old systems and new systems alike) deal with HTML just fine. I think the animosity toward HTMLized email (at least for me) comes from these points: 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say about it. 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into the World Wide Web. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 12:42:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE23@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > machine. While I understand that SOS (wasn't that the > name of the OS, Apple SOS, pronounced "Applesauce"?) Sophisticated Operating System > I'd start saving to disk every 5 lines. Since I compose > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > programmers compose directly into thr machine), at Um, speed and efficiency? > 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement > of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going > to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, > but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. Do it! Do it! My vote is for the Commodore 64. Whenever you find one, if the motherboard isn't dead, the power supply is! And if it does work, it will die quite more readily than any other computer I've ever used. I've never had as many other computers up and die on me as the C64. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 13:47:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6085? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> I was digging in the bone yard of a surplus place (where the nobody would >> buy this carcai are assembled before a bulk sale as junk), and found a >> Miniscribe 6086 (I think) hard drive setting in a old 386. Looked like it >> had 3 connectors, something smaller than IDE, a slotted edge connection >> like a floppy drive, and maybe some sort of power connector. Full height >> 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might >> even be a couple of them. > >I find no listing for a Miniscribe 6086. However, there were a 6085 and >a 6985E which were 71mb and ST506 MFM and ESDI RLL respectively. Most likely it is the 6085. Sounds like it isn't worth removing though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 13:49:27 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) References: Message-ID: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > concerned, it's "trash".... Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out > hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling > away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old > computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? I've turned a few younger people on to it...they seem to get a kick out of computers whose internals they can really understand. One can find databooks for 7400-series TTL logic anywhere, and figure out exactly how a pdp8/e works. Pop open a current PeeCee and what do you find? Five or six two-zillion-pin chips with names like "Win-" on them that you'll never find so much as a pinout for in any printed or .pdf literature. -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 13:44:58 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something >simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. >They don't grow them anymore. More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY one? I hope not. What I am seeing is that different categories of places let go stuff at different times. Some have a fixed cycle just a few years long, ie many ISP lease the hardware for only a year or two then it hits the liquidation market. Other places hoard everything ever purchased until the company folds or sells etc. I am actually looking forward to some of the Apple II era machines I know are still hiding in industrial settings. If you want to see a Grammophone go to the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest this Saturday, there are few out there most times. . Morbid perhaps, but in a few years I bet a LOT of stuff worthwhile starts showing up in storage auctions. From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 14:04:31 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > concerned, it's "trash".... Not to mention that most people never knew anything at all about computers until they bought a PeeCee running Luzewin a couple of years ago and are the same ones that not too long ago gave you a strange look if you said the word "Internet;" they just have no concept of what using any other computer is like. > Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out > hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling > away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old > computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? It seems so strange to think of people doing anything else with older computer equipment (or even old radios or stereos, for that matter) that they find, buy, are given, etc. other than finding some use for it, playing with it, etc. When I talk of my "collection," I don't mean a collection of things squirreled away never to be used, or things that I'm accumulating for the purpose future gains, but a group if items that I find useful and fun to play with. Alas, many people this equipment to horde, collect to sell at a quick profit, etc. Today, I was down in Beltsville at an antique radio flea market - not sure of the event's proper name; it was like a hamfest, but only vintage radio equipment. People were selling 1970's transistor radios for US$30, old wooden tube sets that were scratched up, rusty, had what looked like mouse eaten wiring, had capacitors leaking white chemicals, etc. - one set like this was being sold for about US$50! A Dynaco stereo-70 amp and tuner were going for nearly US$400. One thing the above made me wonder: how many of these old tube sets will end up forever unused and unrestored, and treated - like some other antiques - as being less valuable if restored (like cleaned-up coins and some wood furniture), just because restoring them might lower their financial value as antiques? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 14:15:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE26@TEGNTSERVER> > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > machine. While I understand that SOS (wasn't that the > > name of the OS, Apple SOS, pronounced "Applesauce"?) > > Sophisticated Operating System > > > I'd start saving to disk every 5 lines. Since I compose > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), at > > Um, speed and efficiency? Haste makes waste. The speed and effeciency people I've known get the job done quicker but with a higher load of bugs. They (or someone) have to re-work it until it's right. By composing to paper, I catch everything except conceived- of-the-wrong-solution-for-this-problem. All syntax errors and all flow-of-logic errors show up on paper. Of course, they show up during execution, too. Along with hair that either disappears or turns grey. Then again, people vote with their checkbooks, and over and over, buggy software that's available NOW sells better than the bug-free software that's just-around the-corner. Talk about being trapped on the wheel of Karma! > > 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement > > of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going > > to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, > > but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. > > Do it! Do it! Not today, but soon... > My vote is for the Commodore 64. Whenever you find one, if the > motherboard isn't dead, the power supply is! And if it does > work, it will die quite more readily than any other computer > I've ever used. I've never had as many other computers up > and die on me as the C64. I once tried to help a friend stuck working on a C64- once, and never again. ;-) -dq From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 13:17:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does > it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply > because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been > announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. Damn. What a bunch of frustrated, bickering goobers we all are here. Fifty messages on a mailing list supposedly dealing with Classic Computers and all I see is pointless and endless complaining and flaming back and forth, back and forth. Dudes, smoke a bowl, drink some wine, eat some cheese and CHILL! Put your egos back in the garage with your classic computers. ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 13:22:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something > >simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. > >They don't grow them anymore. > > More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do > you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY > one? I hope not. Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and it is what I've been trying to impress upon whiners for a while now. It's just that one can't expect machines from the 70s and 80s to still always be around in the quanitites they used to be accustomed to when we were still talking only 10-20 years ago. We've made it to the year 2000. Time has moved on and left your memory behind. > folds or sells etc. I am actually looking forward to some of the Apple II > era machines I know are still hiding in industrial settings. I guarantee you there are still plenty of PDP-8s and other goodie machines out there. Just far fewer of them than 10 years ago. > Morbid perhaps, but in a few years I bet a LOT of stuff worthwhile starts > showing up in storage auctions. Who knows, mine might be one of them :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 13:16:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 16, 0 12:33:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1518 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/0cbb56ee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 13:23:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <003901bfd7b7$5e0f20e0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> from "Mark Champion" at Jun 16, 0 10:21:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/4a485bd4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 13:10:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 16, 0 01:08:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1415 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/13e9d2da/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Jun 16 14:40:01 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> Thanks a lot for all this! The cable halves that I have are marked either "12966-60015 ASYNC DATA STRAPPED FOR 9600 BAUD" or "12966-60008 ASYNC DATA". Fortunately, the numbering in the back of the card edge connector corresponds to the 1-24 (top, left to right) and A-Z,AA-BB (bottom, left to right) numbering. The 60015 option has quite a few more cross-connects than the 60004 option. Looks like the labeling of TD and RD signals in your docs indicate that the card thinks of itself as DTE, and the cable that you describe is actually a null modem-like cable w/o handshake. All this should be enough for me to build a simple cable and test this over the weekend. Frank McConnell wrote: -lots of very useful info cut- > > How's that for too much info? > > -Frank McConnell That was really great. Thanks again, carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From elvey at hal.com Fri Jun 16 14:44:18 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006161944.MAA23320@civic.hal.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > > archive the picture. > > Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > want the legal hassles, basically. Hi I still think it would be to Ebays advantage to keep such things as at least item, purchase price, seller and buyer. I often look to use what resources they have. Finding buyers of rare old equipment is desirable. Keeping a list of where and who is one of the ways that we can realisticly keep many of these old machines form ending up in the recyclers masher. List of this type can also help to distribute information that is common interest to that group. The way it would help Ebay is that, it is like advertising. By having this resource, they could also make links to current auctions that are related. This would draw people, by both making it a regular place in the book marks and direct advertising. Dwight From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 16 14:52:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616145028.00b29cf0@pc> At 11:12 AM 6/16/00 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't >want the legal hassles, basically. In my mind, the best web site business plans involve the visitors creating the content themselves. They're missing a big, big opportunity. Each description can contain potentially valuable nuggets of info. It's a crime to toss them in the bit bucket. - John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 16 15:35:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616132933.02493ee0@208.226.86.10> > > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > > archive the picture. Two points, one Ebay _does_ realize the value of their historical data. Try spidering their completed listings a couple of times and their lawyers will come talk to you. The pictures aren't on ebay, they are on the seller's site or honesty.com or wherever they hosted them. >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't >want the legal hassles, basically. I don't believe this is true. I believe Ebay doesn't want to keep its auctions accessible because it wants to sell that information for money to people like appraisers for big BUCK$. I've been creating an automated process in my spare time to harvest the information I'm interested in (average selling price of classic computer systems) but not enough time etc. What they _should_ do, and don't, is keep the title from the auction for which a feedback link is posted so that you can tell if this deadbeat bidder failed to buy a Monet or a speculum, that might help you decide if you're willing to let them bid on your stuff. --Chuck P.S. Side note, the price of Classic Computers on Ebay is dropping. When I have enough data I should be able to show it quite clearly. From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 15:49:00 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > I think the animosity toward HTMLized email (at least for me) > comes from these points: > > 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. > 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. > 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to > prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people > in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't > have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say > about it. > 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, > in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the > Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into > everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into > the World Wide Web. > 5. It can spread viruses. Plain old ASCII e-mail doesn't do that (hoaxes like "Join The Crew" notwithstanding...) From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jun 16 15:55:32 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616132933.02493ee0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > >want the legal hassles, basically. > > I don't believe this is true. I believe Ebay doesn't want to keep its > auctions accessible because it wants to sell that information for money to > people like appraisers for big BUCK$. I've been creating an automated > process in my spare time to harvest the information I'm interested in > (average selling price of classic computer systems) but not enough time etc. eBay doesn't keep historical data because they don't want the storage requirements or performance hit the data would give them. They have *lots* of trouble keeping search performance acceptible given the volume of data they need to index today. Multiplying that problem by an order of magnitude or two isn't a problem they want right now. If their growth stays flat, they may get around to addressing this -- I'm sure they've considered it, but it's not core functionality. Cheers, Doug From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 14:57:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000616145028.00b29cf0@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 11:12 AM 6/16/00 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > >want the legal hassles, basically. > > In my mind, the best web site business plans involve the visitors > creating the content themselves. They're missing a big, big opportunity. > Each description can contain potentially valuable nuggets of info. > It's a crime to toss them in the bit bucket. Yeah, how else are we going to know whether or not a certain computer is RARE? I always turn to eBay vintage computer hardware listings when I need to find out such information! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From louiss at gate.net Fri Jun 16 16:14:30 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> Hi Doug, Well, I haven't programmed on one, but I have worked with them a fair amount, and don't entirely disagree with you. I think the hardware is in general poorly designed, and the SOS operating system is one of the worst ever. It is the only one I know that doesn't let you change the current drive, and requires a "loader program" in Drive 1 to run programs on any other drive. Someone said in response to your remarks they booted theirs from a ProFile; in actuality, that is not possible, you have to boot from Drive 1. However, I have to add that an astonishing number remained in service for very long periods of time, up until recently, and after the initial problems were solved, they were in fact quite reliable. In an event, they are interesting none the less, and as you can imagine I am not using mine to run a business. So, I still would like the motherboard. Louis On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:28:05 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >> Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching >> for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. >> Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? > >Louis- > >Not meaning to be rude, but even when they work, an >Apple /// is kaput. > >Are you aware of how buggy those things were? Did you >ever do any extensive programming for one? > >Again, sorry, I truly mean no offense, but I grew to >loathe Apple for making this machine, and it's a wonder >that I was able to overcome that loathing and buy a Mac. > >-doug quebbeman > From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:14:26 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does > it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply > because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been > announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. > I'm sure that if you did a web search, you'd find thousands of essays deploring our "consumerist, throw-away society". I won't write one here. > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps running well and doesn't cost too much to fix, keep it. I never understood the mentality saying you gotta have a new car every year, or whatever. I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my newsletters on, or surf the Net. So as far as the non-computer-collecting community is concerned (how's that for alliteration, huh?), things have improved exponentially since the early days of the Imsai, the Apple or even the original IBM-PC. There's no real reason for them to store, let alone maintain the older equipment....and, unless one of us geeks hears about it, and is in a position to "rescue" said equipment...off to the landfill/scrapper/China it goes... From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:22:26 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > Not to mention that most people never knew anything at all about > computers until they bought a PeeCee running Luzewin a couple of years > ago and are the same ones that not too long ago gave you a strange > look if you said the word "Internet;" they just have no concept of what > using any other computer is like. People "get on board" at different eras with everything, computers, TV, music, etc. I can't tell you how many times people complain "It was better in the old days". Not always so. > It seems so strange to think of people doing anything else with older > computer equipment (or even old radios or stereos, for that matter) > that they find, buy, are given, etc. other than finding some use for > it, playing with it, etc. When I talk of my "collection," I don't > mean a collection of things squirreled away never to be used, or > things that I'm accumulating for the purpose future gains, but a group > if items that I find useful and fun to play with. Alas, many people this > equipment to horde, collect to sell at a quick profit, etc. We've always had the speculation, "this will make me rich someday" crowd with all sorts of collectables, from beanie babies to baseball cards. It'll always be with us. > > Today, I was down in Beltsville at an antique radio flea market - not > sure of the event's proper name; it was like a hamfest, but only > vintage radio equipment. People were selling 1970's transistor radios > for US$30, old wooden tube sets that were scratched up, rusty, had > what looked like mouse eaten wiring, had capacitors leaking white > chemicals, etc. - one set like this was being sold for about US$50! > A Dynaco stereo-70 amp and tuner were going for nearly US$400. > > One thing the above made me wonder: how many of these old tube sets > will end up forever unused and unrestored, and treated - like some > other antiques - as being less valuable if restored (like cleaned-up > coins and some wood furniture), just because restoring them might > lower their financial value as antiques? > In my (limited) experience, most radio collectors are interested in at least cleaning up the cabinets (especially wooden ones), and many are hoping to eventually get the set in playing condition, preferably with parts as close as possible to the original. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 16 16:24:32 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost> Servus Louis, > Well, I haven't programmed on one, but I have worked with > them a fair amount, and don't entirely disagree with you. > I think the hardware is in general poorly designed, and the > SOS operating system is one of the worst ever. It is the > only one I know that doesn't let you change the current > drive, and requires a "loader program" in Drive 1 to run > programs on any other drive. Someone said in response to > your remarks they booted theirs from a ProFile; in > actuality, that is not possible, you have to boot from > Drive 1. I hope nobody will ever tell this to my A///, he may stop to boot from the profile drive. Could it be that there are different versions around ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:24:46 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Damn. What a bunch of frustrated, bickering goobers we all are here. > Fifty messages on a mailing list supposedly dealing with Classic Computers > and all I see is pointless and endless complaining and flaming back and > forth, back and forth. You should visit a couple of my other mailing lists. On my Train mailing list, for example, we've been arguing back and forth for years whether Amtrak should fix up their antique "heritage" cars or just order new ones. It's part and parcel of Internet discussion groups, talk radio, and other fora where you have many people with different opinions and priorities in one place. From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:28:02 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > 5. It can spread viruses. Plain old ASCII e-mail doesn't do that (hoaxes > like "Join The Crew" notwithstanding...) > Actually, just HTML can't spread anything. Embedded *scripting* (particularly VBScript, but Javascript has been implicated as well) is the problem... From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 16 16:49:39 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Jun 16, 0 10:42:55 am" Message-ID: <200006162149.OAA12888@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement ::> of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going ::> to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, ::> but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. :: ::Do it! Do it! :: ::My vote is for the Commodore 64. Whenever you find one, if the ::motherboard isn't dead, the power supply is! And if it does work, it will ::die quite more readily than any other computer I've ever used. I've never ::had as many other computers up and die on me as the C64. On the other hand, C128s are nice and reliable when you find them. It also depends on the motherboard version. 64Cs are generally in good condition and so are the later brown 64s (check the serial number). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- High explosives are applicable where truth and logic fail. -- Marcello Corno From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 15:45:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > You should visit a couple of my other mailing lists. On my Train mailing > list, for example, we've been arguing back and forth for years whether > Amtrak should fix up their antique "heritage" cars or just order new ones. At least you're sticking to the subject matter. > It's part and parcel of Internet discussion groups, talk radio, and other > fora where you have many people with different opinions and priorities > in one place. ...and way too much time on their hands with few (if any) outlets for their frustrations. Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 16 17:05:02 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at "Jun 16, 0 04:28:02 pm" Message-ID: <200006162205.PAA04166@oa.ptloma.edu> Getting back to Tek emulation :-P, I've got Lynx successfully exporting pictures as Tek displays and I've been able to trim down the size of the generated vectors. Also, if you can live with a high-contrast image, it compresses down really well. So here's one place that HTML definitely belongs, and Lynx is no longer Tek only. :-) Source code available in Perl for the interested. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Eggheads unite! You have nothing to lose but your yolks. -- Adlai Stevenson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 16:50:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jun 16, 0 01:24:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/b8b7982e/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 16 17:07:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:12:10 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000616220729.27934.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust writes: > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > archive the picture. William Donzelli replies: > Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > want the legal hassles, basically. They can *sell* access to the archives. As far as problems that come up after auctions complete, they have potential problems whether they keep the data or not. From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 16:56:35 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > > > Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does > > it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply > > because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been > > announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. > > > I'm sure that if you did a web search, you'd find thousands of essays > deploring our "consumerist, throw-away society". I won't write one here. > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus owners out there who would think that you are daft! - don > running well and doesn't cost too much to fix, keep it. I never understood > the mentality saying you gotta have a new car every year, or whatever. > > I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > newsletters on, or surf the Net. > > So as far as the non-computer-collecting community is concerned (how's > that for alliteration, huh?), things have improved exponentially since the > early days of the Imsai, the Apple or even the original IBM-PC. There's no > real reason for them to store, let alone maintain the older > equipment....and, unless one of us geeks hears about it, and is in a > position to "rescue" said equipment...off to the landfill/scrapper/China > it goes... > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 17:01:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 0 01:45:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 85 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/32b707a6/attachment.ksh From paulrsm at ameritech.net Fri Jun 16 16:22:24 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Douglas Quebbeman > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard > Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM > > Since I compose > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > programmers compose directly into thr machine), Because I can type much faster than I can write. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 16 17:15:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:45:08 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000616221546.28030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam asks: > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? It's Sign EXtend, opcode $1D. Surely everyone knows that?! :-) From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jun 16 17:11:52 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 2000 01:45:08 PM Message-ID: <200006162211.SAA23956@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Sign EXtend instruction on the 6809. -spc (Just keeping on topic here ... 8-) From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 17:24:10 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > You should visit a couple of my other mailing lists. On my Train mailing > > list, for example, we've been arguing back and forth for years whether > > Amtrak should fix up their antique "heritage" cars or just order new ones. > > At least you're sticking to the subject matter. Usually, until it gets into stuff like "Capitalism vs. Communism--better for trains?" or "Is the train name 'Cotton Express' racist?" > > > It's part and parcel of Internet discussion groups, talk radio, and other > > fora where you have many people with different opinions and priorities > > in one place. > > ...and way too much time on their hands with few (if any) outlets for > their frustrations. > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Aargh! If we knew about that do you think we'd be living alone with 20 old computers and nothing else? :-) Some times I think we're the male, technological version of the "Cat Lady"....:-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 16 17:34:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: References: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to walk around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. At 03:49 PM 6/16/00 -0500, Charles Hobbs wrote: >5. It can spread viruses. Plain old ASCII e-mail doesn't do that (hoaxes >like "Join The Crew" notwithstanding...) This is incorrect. Outlook spreads viruses by exploiting a weakness in the underlying architecture and the users of that architecture. The "love" virus et al showed up as plain ascii text with an attachment that many user mail agents convert into a "link." >On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. No, smoke signals work as well. Everyone on this knows that THIS IS SHOUTING and *this* is an emphatic point. HTML gives you better markup than case and punctuation symbols. Sending :-) is not as intuitive as sending the smiley face symbol. > > 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. Again false. There is less waste due to the / and tags than there is from idiots that include a 600 line rant and tag "I agree" on to the end. To steal a phrase, HTML doesn't waste bandwidth, people do. :-) Correctly constructed, HTML is pretty efficient at capturing added typographical information. Mailers that insist on sending both an HTML version and a plain version are broken in my opinion. > > 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to > > prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people > > in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't > > have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say > > about it. HTML and windows are not tied as closely as you might think. Since HTML was developed at CERN on Sun UNIX boxes it was tied at the time more closely to UNIX. However, it is genuinely functional if I can include a diagram in-line with my text that is _not_ composed of ascii characters and thus won't be gobbledy gook when you see it. > > 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, > > in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the > > Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into > > everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into > > the World Wide Web. You are confusing HTTP with HTML. HTML was explicitly designed so that a "modern" computer (one that had a bitmapped screen rather than a terminal) could be taken advantage of when you were *exchanging* documents. It was a lot simpler than the printer description languages of the day, (and PDF today) and, when tied with a convention (the URL) and a network protocol, it could "link" related documents rather than include them and thus waste precious bandwidth. One alternative was RTF (Rich Text Format) which _was_ tied to windoze and isn't very nice. It is true that the "Internet" is defined by many to be the set of all accessible HTTP sites, just as "everybody" is often defined to be everyone within a geographical region. The human mind slides naturally into such groupings and its unavoidable for a lot of people. The future of e-mail may well be HTML. However, what we are actually discussing is this particular community's standard of "decent" behaviour, its morals if you will, and by current consensus, HTML is "rude." There is no technical justification, just like there is no technical justification for banning nudity on beaches. Accept it and move on. --Chuck From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 17:39:46 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > owners out there who would think that you are daft! I'm sure they would. I've always stuck to conservative, commuter cars such as Saturn, Honda Accord, etc. From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 17:55:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Something that your parents should have never had? ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 16:54:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Usually, until it gets into stuff like "Capitalism vs. Communism--better > for trains?" or "Is the train name 'Cotton Express' racist?" Sounds like ClassicCmp, just replace "trains" with "classic computers" :) I can't think of a racist sounding computer name. Are the black Apple ][+'s discriminated against? Was the NeXT really just too ahead of it's time or did it succumb to racist elements in the computer industry? Someone call Spike Lee! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:12:27 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Don Maslin) References: Message-ID: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Don Maslin wrote: > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > owners out there who would think that you are daft! Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since its introduction. Any parallels of that in our industry? Aside from people, that is... -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:12:55 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <14666.46199.344658.763287@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Tony Duell wrote: > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? > > Sign EXtend (6809 mnemonic) ? GEEK ALERT! Way to go, Tony! :-) -Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 17:08:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jun 16, 0 04:14:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/c8000988/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 18:16:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > Since I compose > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), You do that too? I always got more code written in a shorter period of time that way. When modifying code, paper is all the more useful, particularly wide greenbar with the code to be modified or added to printed out on it. My former employer had no printer with greenbar, which really came as a shock to me, as every place else I'd ever worked had at least one high-speed line printer. It's too annoying to make changes to long programs on the screen; much easier to leaf through pages of code and pencil in changes, draw lines here and there, circle things, etc. than to go from screen to screen with an editor, as that can become confusing with large programs. No wonder modern code has become so bloated and full of bugs; the programmers have less of an idea what they're working on. Even stranger was the fact that most of the people I worked with, who were programmers, had no idea what greenbar was, even when it was described to them! Hopefully line printers and wide dot-matrix printers aren't on their way to becoming obsolete. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 17:15:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? > > Something that your parents should have never had? ;-) Sorry, wrong. The correct answer is "something that R.D. apparently hasn't gotten in a long time" ;) Get that paper white ass of yours out into the sunlight and find yourself a mate! It'll do wonders for your complexion, not to mention your temperament. Cut it out with the masturbation. It just makes you frustrated. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:24:14 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: HTML in mail (Chuck McManis) References: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <14666.46878.854674.981611@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Chuck McManis wrote: > >On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. > > No, smoke signals work as well. Everyone on this knows that THIS IS > SHOUTING and *this* is an emphatic point. HTML gives you better markup than > case and punctuation symbols. Sending :-) is not as intuitive as sending > the smiley face symbol. It's just as intuitive to me...and to you as well, I'm sure, Chuck. It's all a matter of what one is used to. Sure, one summer day about nineteen years ago I asked a friend what that strange-looking colon-hyphen-closeparen deal was that I was seeing all over the place. He grabbed my head and wrenched it sideways and I learned what a "smiley" was all about. Sure, it wasn't immediately intuitive...but nowadays, I can't see a colon anywhere near a paren without my mind converting it into some sort of face! > > > 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. > > Again false. There is less waste due to the / and > tags than there is from idiots that include a 600 line rant > and tag "I agree" on to the end. To steal a phrase, HTML doesn't waste > bandwidth, people do. :-) Correctly constructed, HTML is pretty efficient > at capturing added typographical information. Mailers that insist on > sending both an HTML version and a plain version are broken in my opinion. I agree with the "people do" point...but the HTML mail that I see is typically bloated by 20-50% past the original text. Sure, if it were all nice, efficient hand-coded HTML it could be a lot better...but it's NOT. It's coming out of dumbass Windows software and is bloated as hell. > > > 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to > > > prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people > > > in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't > > > have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say > > > about it. > > HTML and windows are not tied as closely as you might think. Since HTML was > developed at CERN on Sun UNIX boxes it was tied at the time more closely to > UNIX. However, it is genuinely functional if I can include a diagram > in-line with my text that is _not_ composed of ascii characters and thus > won't be gobbledy gook when you see it. I'm quite intimately familiar with the history of HTML & HTTP...and while I do agree with your statement of functionality, using HTML for any sort of diagramming is a stretch at best. Formatting/coloring/sizing text, sure...but diagramming?? > > > 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, > > > in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the > > > Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into > > > everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into > > > the World Wide Web. > > You are confusing HTTP with HTML. HTML was explicitly designed so that a > "modern" computer (one that had a bitmapped screen rather than a terminal) > could be taken advantage of when you were *exchanging* documents. It was a > lot simpler than the printer description languages of the day, (and PDF > today) and, when tied with a convention (the URL) and a network protocol, > it could "link" related documents rather than include them and thus waste > precious bandwidth. Not at all. As I mentioned above I'm quite familiar with the history of both. Please reread my #4 point above with this in mind: I'm speaking completely from the standpoint of the *current* popular use of this technology...not the original reasons for its development. I apologize for not being more clear about that originally. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:34:16 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) References: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14666.47480.254777.476342@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > newsletters on, or surf the Net. I think you're taking it to an extreme here, though, given the context. I'm talking about the Pentium-II/233 that was "wow fabulous wonderful my god check out my new machine!!" three years ago that are heading to trash bins today. There is *NO* reason for this. Those machines are just as functional today as they were three years ago...but people are treating them like trash simply because something faster has been introduced by the vendor! -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 17:43:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:45 2005 Subject: Stuff Message-ID: I'm reading through an issue of Computers & Electronics from November 1982 (formerly Popular Electronics) I found here at work. Here's something on page 23 for Marvin & Hans (and anyone else who has one): Microcomputer Trainer. The Micro-Professor is a Z80-based system featuring a six digit LED display, 2K-bytes of ROM (expandable to 8K), 2K-bytes of RAM, 24 I/O lines, 2K monitor, cassette interface, countertimer circuits, a user wire-wrap area, 36-key keyboard, 9-volt power adapter, and an extension connector. The system is expandable. $129.95. Address: Etronix, 14803 N.E. 40th, Redmond, WA 98052 Here's something for the Commodore fans (same page). I've never heard of this one before: CBM 16-bitter. The BX256 is a multiprocessor system using a 6509 and 8088 with an optional Z80, 256K of internal RAM expandable to 640K externally, 40K of ROM, and interfaces for IEEE-488, RS232, CBM cassette, 8-bit user port, and a carthridge slot. The green phosphor video monitor has 80-columns of 25 lines and has tilt/swivel controls. The detachable 94-key keyboard includes a separate numeric keypad featuring a double-zero key, clear entry key, and a double-size enter key for ease of use. The keyboard also has 10 user-definable keys. A built-in 6581 CPU allows a full 3-voice, 9-octave music synthesizer having an output for an external audio system. A dual disk drive is built in as is a realtime clock. Software includes BASIC 4.0, with options of CP/M, CP/M-86, and UCSD Pascal. The BX256 micro processor system supportsd all CBM peripherals. Planned price is $2995. Address: Commodore Business Machines Inc., The Meadows, 487 Devon Park Drive, Wayne, PA 19087. I love this stuff! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 18:34:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jun 16, 0 03:34:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3339 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/beeb7fb8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 18:38:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.46199.344658.763287@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 16, 0 07:12:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 270 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/741aa4f7/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 19:02:52 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Uh...Synthetic TEXt? From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 19:02:52 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.47480.254777.476342@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still > > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > > newsletters on, or surf the Net. > > I think you're taking it to an extreme here, though, given the > context. I'm talking about the Pentium-II/233 that was "wow fabulous > wonderful my god check out my new machine!!" three years ago that are > heading to trash bins today. A 233 I'd probably still keep, personally. (I run a library computer lab and we replaced some Pentium 120's with new Pentium III 600's, via a grant. The 120's went to another campus lab, where they are going to replace some 486's) The P120's (and the 486's) still *work*, they're just slow in dealing with some of the fancy web pages that people want to look at. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 18:58:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Stuff In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 0 03:43:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/609a37b6/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 16 18:54:39 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX Message-ID: <20000616.185938.-3911317.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:19:45 -0400 "Jason McBrien" writes: > I vote that workstation hardware older than 7 years old counts as a > classic, > if it's oddball enough. PA-RISC is pretty oddball in my opinion. > They run > OpenSTEP well, though. Dittos on the VAXstations... And DG AViiONs! What you lookin' at me like that for?!?! 88000 ain't oddball enuf fer ya?! ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 16 18:59:36 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: transit@lerctr.org Message-ID: <20000616.185938.-3911317.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT) "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" writes: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > If you tried to pull the same thing on the ice fishing list, you > would > > probably catch hell. > > > I'm on an Electronic Organ list, an Amtrak Advocacy list, a Web for ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hey! You may be interested in a couple of manuals I have: Schematic sets for the MONDAINO MONOTRON/POLYTRON, and another one for the MONDAINO H6000/H7000. The drawings are dated 1980. I'm not into these, but maybe you (or one of your buddies) is . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 19:08:40 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not sure what that difference is.... They're both single-processor > von Neuman computers, aren't they? > > I really don't understand why people insist on replacing perfectly good > computers just because there's a new model out. I do know that my > original PC/XT will, once I've replaced the dead chip on the floppy > controller, still run my EPROM programmer, read 8" disks, test cables, > and do all the other things that I've modified it for over the years. > Just as my MINC will carry on logging data (as will my HP71 + HP3421), my > PERQ will still display bitmapped images at a good speed, etc. They do > the jobs they were designed to do, they still do them. And until I need > to do jobs that can't be done on those machines _at all_, I see no reason > to 'upgrade' (meaning : replace a perfectly working, well understood, > reliable system with a new kludge). > If it does what you want it to do, keep it. An original PC/XT wouldn't meet many of my needs right now, so I wouldn't use one except in an emergency. > > > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > > newsletters on, or surf the Net. > > I see nothing wrong with printing newsletters on a dot matrix printer. I don't either, really, except the people have come to expect laser formatting, photographs, etc. I guess you *could* do it with an Apple II, hell, I could do it with a TI 99/4A if necessary. And I could rub two sticks together to light my next bbq, instead of lighter fluid and matches. It would be fun to try once, that's about it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 19:18:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jun 16, 0 07:08:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/996aa4cb/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jun 16 19:28:07 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> Dave McGuire wrote: [snip] > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > its introduction. I suppose it depends on what you define as "changed very little". '71, '73, '74, '76, '78, '82 and '85 all introduce significant chassis changes. The liquid-cooled current production engine has only passing resemblance to the air-cooled precursors and the transaxle has seen radical changes. About the only thing that is really constant about the car is the shape, the transmission-in-front-of-differential-in-front-of-engine-layout and the organization of the engine as a boxer-six. Oh, and the location of the ignition on the left-hand side of the wheel :-) Look hard enough and almost every bit has been radically revisited, which coupled with the amazing ability to graft in stuff from the 930/34/35 and even a few 928 bits, makes for *all sorts* of fun for those of us who get geeky over 911s... :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 16 19:27:14 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: transit@lerctr.org Message-ID: <20000616.192715.-3911317.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Dammit, that was supposed to be private. Sorry Guys . . . On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:59:36 -0500 jeff.kaneko@juno.com writes: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT) "Charles P. Hobbs > (SoCalTip)" > writes: ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 18:39:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: More Stuff Message-ID: More from the same issue of Computers & Electronics (Nov/82). Has anyone ever heard of this machine? Introducing a Brand New Microcomputer: Venture VENTURE is a single board computer that is an adventure for the hobbyist. It is a learning training computer as well as just plain fun for anyone who wants to get into a state-of-the-art computer at reasonable cost. VENTURE comes in kit form or fully assembled and tested. You can get it in its minimum configuration for as little as $195.00 or take it all the way to floppy disks and voice. It can be expanded as a kit or fully assembled, at your own pace and choice. VENTURE is a 16" by 20" main board with separate ASCII and HEX keyboards. It runs fast, almost 4 MHz and has the capability of putting 1.5 megabytes of RAM and ROM on the board along with a variety of inexpensive options. On Board Options: 16 channel A to D; 5 slot 60 pin bus, 2 serial ports, parallel ports; 4 video options incl. color, 52K RAM, Votrax voice synthesizer, sound generator, EPROM; Full Basic, disassembler, editor, assembler; metal cabinet, additional power supply, ASCII keyboard, real time clock calendar. Expansion Options: Floppy Disc, EPROM Programmer, light pen, universal user programmable music, sound board, high resolution color/grayscale pixel mapped video board, General Purpose Instrument Bus, 8088 co-processor board. Minimum VENTURE System: $195.00 Kit includes CPU and control with 4K of RAM, 1K of scratchpad, 2K monitor, 1861 video graphics, cassette interface and separate HEX keyboard with LED displays for address and output. Power supply is included along with 2 game cassettes, The main board is 16" x 20" and includes space for all of the previously dicussed on-board options. Full on-board expansion can be completed for under $1000.00. I want one! The ad is from Quest Electronics in Santa Clara, CA. They also sold kits for the RCA Cosmac 1802 Super Elf, the Rockwell AIM 65, as well as a modem kit, a Z80 Microcomputer kit, and various ICs and such. The ads in the back (the low budget ones) have an even neater array of single board computers being sold by what would seem to be hobbyists trying to sell their creations in the commercial arena. There's an ad for a 68000-based singleboard, a port expander module for the HP-41, plus various add-ons for various computers of the day (Sinclair, Atari, TRS-80, etc). Finally, there's a small add for a IBM Selectric-to-computer adaptor to use the typewriter as a printer. Anyone ever hear of Synchro-Sette magazine (for the Sinclair ZX-81, TS-1000)? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 16 19:57:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> 
At 12:34 AM 6/17/00 +0100, Tony wrote:
>In any case (relating to my previous comment). I don't think there's any
>problem with people using hand-generated html tags here. I've never seen
>that complained about. Just as I've never been flamed for using '\pounds'
>to me an UK pound sign, for all '\pounds' is actually a TeX/LaTeX macro.
>
>The problem comes with certain broken mailers that insist on sending a
>computer-generated HTML message that's much longer than the text. A
>message where every line has font tags, colour tags, etc. Which are
>totally useless to people with monochrome text-based displays anyway...
>That's the waste of bandwidth.

This is the crux of the discussion that causes it to be irrational. (in the 
since of not being reducible to a finite set of parts, not in the sense 
that anyone is being crazy)

The issue that you, and others have with HTML is not with HTML at all, it 
is with the bad software tools that fail to apply it in a reasonable way. 
As you have no doubt noticed, this email is "formatted" with HTML and 
should you choose to view it in an HTML aware window it could include 
emphasis and underlines that were pretty darn unobtrusive.

So I agree with you, every HTML capable mailer I've seen to date does a 
lousy job of implemneting the technology, but that isn't the 
technologies fault.

But I reiterate my main point, using HTML on this list is considered rude, 
therefore people should abstain from it if at all possible and apologize 
when they accidentially use it (as I did, sorry, I'm trying to make a point)

--Chuck
From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:21:48 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.29304.794967.182577@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I'm not sure I'd agree...but then I work in a company full of Unix > boxes and live in a neighborhood full of Unix people. But that's > the reality I see when I look out the window. Microsoft isn't > universally run everywhere. Sure, every suit has a Windows box on > his or her desk...but just as there's more to the human race than > suits, there's more to the world of computing than Windows. Yes, but something like 80 percent of computer users are Windoze types, including John Q. Public. That's a big chunk. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:25:18 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ahh, William, so spoiled by your high speed net connection :) > > Think about the poor slobs in other parts of the world who still have to > pay by the minute. Hasn't been that way for over a year now. I left ANS. > I pity them as I download 20 megabyte AVIs over my cable modem paying only > $39.95 (plus franchise tax) a month ;) Well, OK, RCS/RI has a decent connection as well, but I only use that when at the Mill. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:30:16 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Again, is this a blanket statement that anything that isn't an Intel > box running Windows is an "older system"? Hold the boat, here - when did I say "older system" means a non-Wintel box? I mean a mailer that can deal with HTML that is running under AOS, or RSX, or ITS... Cripes, I really beat the hell out of the hornet's nest this time... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 20:43:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0400 References: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20000616214314.A27797@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >No, not at all. The question I posed is if anyone is writing mailers for >the older systems so they can handle HTML properly. More importantly, is anyone writing mailers for the newer systems which can handle plain ASCII text properly? You can't claim to interoperate with other systems if your system absolutely depends on everyone else having more than the minimum features required by the RFCs. Anyway, Windows isn't new, it's been around for ~15 years already... Almost as long as DOS and MacOS, and longer than Linux or most other current Unix clones (even if they have old roots). The main reason HTML is inappropriate for email is that it's a poor fit to the task of representing plain text. Which, 99% of the time, is all that appears in an email message (well, except for spam of course, and god forbid that that not get through). And it contributes hugely to the bloat that we're getting everywhere. It doesn't matter how much bandwidth or disk space you have, HTML effectively cuts it in half. And for what real benefit? My inbox is currently over 6 MB, when I start up the mailer there's a very noticeable delay before it's even finished *counting* the messages. I'm sick of it! >Of course, if you want to hind under a rock, you can do that also. Right! I really like the line in The Unix Hater's Handbook, where they say that they were about to say that Unix is stuck in the dark ages of email, but then they realized that back in the dark ages of computing, network mail actually *worked*. It's an even better point when applied to Windows. >I like >to think that I have a life out side classic computers. Wha... I don't understand? :-) John Wilson D Bit From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:44:58 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do > you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY > one? I hope not. Of course not. That DEC pile was huge, but other piles do turn up (wasn't there one in Delaware about three years ago?). Smaller, yet sizable caches pop up as well. RCS/RI has certainly done well - one early haul involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), two LINC-8s, a Packard Bell 250, a Univac card punch, and a number of PDP-8 and -11 systems. All from one place. More recently, RCS and RICM came across a cache of IBM stuff - mostly semi-interesting hardware, but also something like 800 pounds of documentation - service manuals and the like - for non-PC systems dating all the way back to 1960. Look, and you shall find them. I am always running into piles of old surplus radio and radar gear (my main interest), one of which makes the DEC pile look tiny. Radar gear or old computers - the piles look the same from a distance. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 19:43:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Ok, too cool Message-ID: This is too cool. Advertised in the Dec/82 issue of Computers & Electronics, there's an ad on page 67 for a game for the TS-1000/ZX-81 called Krakit. It's a puzzle type adventure game. What makes it special is that the publisher put up a $20,000 prize for the first person who could crack it. "KRAKIT consists of 12 clues on a ready-to-run ZX81 or TS1000 cassette tape (16k RAM). The answer to each clue is the name of a country, or a city or town, and a number. If you are the first qualified entrant to solve all 12 clues and declared the winner, you receive two tickets to the city of the secret KRAKIT vault location. When you arrive at that location, a check for a minimum amount of $20,000.00 (U.S.) will be presented to you. The amount of the prize money is augmented weekly." Has anyone ever heard of this? Did anyone ever crack it? This game was published by International Publishing & Software Inc. It seems like an awful lot of money for a relatively unknown outfit to be offering. I wonder if it wasn't all just a sham, i.e. one of the clues was so hard as to be impossible to solve :) If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:46:10 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > HTML = HyperText Markup Language. E-mail is not (in general) a hypertext > document. Therefore it shouldn't contain HTML. Interesting logic. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:51:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I can't think of a racist sounding computer name. The worst name I ever saw attached to a computer was some business (I think personnel) software called "Manprobe". William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 21:10:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:24:32PM +0200 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost> Message-ID: <20000616221022.B27797@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:24:32PM +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >I hope nobody will ever tell this to my A///, >he may stop to boot from the profile drive. > >Could it be that there are different versions around ? Hmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar. I kind of think I vaguely remember reading magazine articles in the early 80s about the /// being discontinued and then re-introduced in "new & improved" form. But I wouldn't know... Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop the entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering it on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew through the oxide? Wild... John Wilson D Bit From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 21:12:45 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We found one source that has yielded 3 truckloads of Wang equipment and documentation and software so far. There is actually one working VS-65 system still left behind. On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do > > you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY > > one? I hope not. > > Of course not. That DEC pile was huge, but other piles do turn up (wasn't > there one in Delaware about three years ago?). Smaller, yet sizable > caches pop up as well. RCS/RI has certainly done well - one early haul > involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), two LINC-8s, a Packard Bell 250, > a Univac card punch, and a number of PDP-8 and -11 systems. All > from one place. More recently, RCS and RICM came across a cache of IBM > stuff - mostly semi-interesting hardware, but also something like 800 > pounds of documentation - service manuals and the like - for non-PC > systems dating all the way back to 1960. > > Look, and you shall find them. I am always running into piles of old > surplus radio and radar gear (my main interest), one of which makes the > DEC pile look tiny. Radar gear or old computers - the piles look the same > from a distance. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 21:23:34 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:34:47PM -0700 References: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000616222334.C27797@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:34:47PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >HTML and windows are not tied as closely as you might think. Since HTML was >developed at CERN on Sun UNIX boxes it was tied at the time more closely to >UNIX. However, it is genuinely functional if I can include a diagram >in-line with my text that is _not_ composed of ascii characters and thus >won't be gobbledy gook when you see it. Maybe it won't be gobbledy gook when *you* see it, but it will by the time it gets to me... John Wilson D Bit From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Jun 16 21:29:30 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) > >Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop the >entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering it >on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew >through the oxide? Wild... > Given the weight of a ///, you might fix the computer, but you'll damage the desk! It wasn't just the first time, IIRC. The ///s also had notoriously bad sockets, and lousy cooling, so the chips had a tendency to wiggle out over time. So you might have had to repeat the Apple drop every six months or so. Any other examples of semi-official fixes like this one? The only other one that comes to mind is the infamous "Atari ST twist", where you grasped both sides of the case firmly, and twisted the ends in opposite directions. The flexing of the motherboard supposedly reseated a chip that frequently came loose, without, of course, requiring you to open the case, and thereby void your warranty. Madness! Mark. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 16 21:55:26 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <30.66aa642.267c429e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/16/00 9:36:08 PM Central Daylight Time, mgregory@vantageresearch.com writes: << Any other examples of semi-official fixes like this one? The only other one that comes to mind is the infamous "Atari ST twist", where you grasped both sides of the case firmly, and twisted the ends in opposite directions. The flexing of the motherboard supposedly reseated a chip that frequently came loose, without, of course, requiring you to open the case, and thereby void your warranty. >> wasnt there a similar issue with the TRS80 model 1's expansion interface? I remember hearing that it had a dodgy connection and many people devised methods of maintaining good contact. D.B. Young Team OS/2 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers of yesteryear! come one, come all! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 16 22:03:37 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616132933.02493ee0@208.226.86.10> References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616214700.00e47340@pc> At 01:35 PM 6/16/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Two points, one Ebay _does_ realize the value of their historical data. Try spidering their completed listings a couple of times and their lawyers will come talk to you. So you think they're archiving it all, and purposefully only letting people search the last few weeks? >The pictures aren't on ebay, they are on the seller's site or honesty.com or wherever they hosted them. I didn't re-read their fine print, but I can imagine that if you're giving them permission to post your HTML description including the URL of the pictures, that they'd have the right to grab a copy. As I'm sure you've seen, the remotely hosted images often disappear even before the eBay completed auction. At 11:17 AM 6/16/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Damn. What a bunch of frustrated, bickering goobers we all are here. >Dudes, smoke a bowl, drink some wine, eat some cheese and CHILL! Put your >egos back in the garage with your classic computers. Because I haven't mentioned sex yet, Sellam might not have read this far. Goobers? Nguba? And all this time I thought the real reason for the VCF was the groupies. Go ahead, buy the eBay Cap'n Crunch whistle, invite him to the show, but beware the "work out" invitations. - John From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 22:05:11 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, but something like 80 percent of computer users are Windoze types, > including John Q. Public. That's a big chunk. True, but that's due mostly to ignorance and Microsoft's marketing tactics which have resulted in a very limited choice for the average consumer who buys a computer from the average computer store which only sells PeeCees running Microsoft bletchware. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 16 22:07:08 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez's message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:40:01 -0400" References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200006170307.UAA39779@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Thanks a lot for all this! The cable halves that I have > are marked either "12966-60015 ASYNC DATA STRAPPED FOR 9600 BAUD" > or "12966-60008 ASYNC DATA". Fortunately, the numbering in the > back of the card edge connector corresponds to the 1-24 (top, left > to right) and A-Z,AA-BB (bottom, left to right) numbering. The 60015 > option has quite a few more cross-connects than the 60004 option. This time around I'm looking at a newer (April 1984) revision of the same manual and it has three (!) descriptions of the -60015 cable, two for HP 2621B terminals, and one for HP 264X terminals. Cross-connects inside the card-edge hood appear the same for all descriptions of this cable: (F, X, Y, AA) (H, K) (N, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15) (these strap it for 9600 baud) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) And for the far end of the cable, the 2621B flavors looks like they could be going to a DB25: A -> 7 (Signal Ground) D -> 3 (Transmit Data) E -> 5, 6 (Request to Send) F -> 8 (Data Terminal Ready) S -> 2 (Received Data) X -> 4 (Clear to Send) -60008 looks like it's supposed to be for a 264X terminal (to the card-edge connector on the datacomm board) and has slightly different cross-connects: (A, 1, 12, 13, 14, 15) (F, X, Y, AA) (H, K) (N, 8) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) As far as I can tell, this is strapped for external clocking from the terminal. I guess it's time for that table about how to strap for a baud rate: Baud Rate Bit Yield Pin 8 to pins: Pin 1, A, 24, BB to pins: Ext (16X) 0000 N 12, 13, 14, 15 50 0001 14, N 12, 13, 15 75 0010 13, N 12, 14, 15 110 0011 13, 14, N 12, 15 134.5 0100 12, N 13, 14, 15 150 0101 12, 14, N 13, 15 300 0110 12, 13, N 14, 15 600 0111 12, 13, 14, N 15 900 1000 15, N 12, 13, 14 1200 1001 14, 15, N 12, 13 1800 1010 13, 15, N 12, 14 2400 1011 13, 14, 15, N 12 3600 1100 12, 15, N 13, 14 4800 1101 12, 14, 15, N 13 7200 1110 12, 13, 15, N 14 9600 1111 12, 13, 14, 15, N -- > Looks like the labeling of TD and RD signals in your docs > indicate that the card thinks of itself as DTE, and the cable > that you describe is actually a null modem-like cable w/o > handshake. All this should be enough for me to build a simple > cable and test this over the weekend. That would be about right, I think. The HP terminals that I'm familiar with generally had cables whose far ends were a DB25 plug that wanted to plug into a DCE-flavored connector. Good luck! -Frank McConnell From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 22:38:42 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > > owners out there who would think that you are daft! > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > its introduction. Any parallels of that in our industry? Aside from > people, that is... Perhaps the Model 'T' Ford? :-) - don > -Dave McGuire > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 22:40:17 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > > owners out there who would think that you are daft! > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > its introduction. Any parallels of that in our industry? Aside from > people, that is... Oops! Misread the sentence above. Belay my previous post! - don > -Dave McGuire > From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 16 23:15:09 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? Thanks for any info. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 23:36:35 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > > > If it does what you want it to do, keep it. An original PC/XT wouldn't > > Yep, that seems to be a standard viewpoint on this list. It certainly > isn't the view of the j-random-public who insist on replacing computers > just because there's a new model out, even though they still work fine, > they still do the jobs they are needed for. I'd like to get them to stop doing that with cars, except there wouldn't be any good used ones for me to buy... > > > meet many of my needs right now, so I wouldn't use one except in an > > emergency. > > It doesn't do that many of the jobs I need either. Which is why I have > more than one computer. I'd rather have many machines, each one reliably > doing a particular job, than a modern PC that does nothing that I want > particularly well... I have several too... > > [...] > > > > I see nothing wrong with printing newsletters on a dot matrix printer. > > > > I don't either, really, except the people have come to expect laser > > formatting, photographs, etc. I guess you *could* do it with an Apple II, > > As I've said many times before (and will say many times again), I regard > the content of a document as being much more important than the > formatting, the printing method, etc. I've got books/manuals that appear > to have been written on a manual typewriter that contain useful > information. I've got plenty of documents created on DTP, etc, systems > that are not worth the paper they are printed on. Guess which I consider > to be more valuable... I strive to create documents that both look nice and have useful info, but that's just me. > > Of course J-random-public these days would rather look at the pretty > pictures than read pages of text Assuming they can read at all. We have signs in our library , for example, telling them how to use various databases, buy a copy card for the printer, etc. I still end up walking people through the process every day. And I'm talking about Doctors, M.D's! >, but fortunately, I'm not > J-random-public ;-) None of us on this list are, that's what's so nice about it. :-) From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jun 16 23:48:06 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Synchro-Sette magazine Message-ID: <72.4723a4.267c5d06@aol.com> In a message dated 06/16/2000 8:45:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > Anyone ever hear of Synchro-Sette magazine (for the Sinclair ZX-81, > TS-1000)? Yes. They were based in Addison, Illinois, and actually had an 800 number. The magazine was $39.50 for twelve issues, and every other issue included a tape cassette with at least six programs on it. Unfortunately the programs and articles were all pretty much crap and the company folded. Glen 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jun 16 23:48:08 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Krakit Message-ID: <2f.6bb8109.267c5d08@aol.com> In a message dated 06/16/2000 9:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > This is too cool. Advertised in the Dec/82 issue of Computers & > Electronics, there's an ad on page 67 for a game for the TS-1000/ZX-81 > called Krakit. It's a puzzle type adventure game. What makes it special > is that the publisher put up a $20,000 prize for the first person who > could crack it. > > "KRAKIT consists of 12 clues on a ready-to-run ZX81 or TS1000 cassette > tape (16k RAM). The answer to each clue is the name of a country, or a > city or town, and a number. If you are the first qualified entrant to > solve all 12 clues and declared the winner, you receive two tickets to the > city of the secret KRAKIT vault location. When you arrive at that > location, a check for a minimum amount of $20,000.00 (U.S.) will be > presented to you. The amount of the prize money is augmented weekly." > > Has anyone ever heard of this? Did anyone ever crack it? Sellam, if you ever read any of the Timex Sinclair related mags you would be blown away. Not too long ago on this ng the TS1000/ZX81 was voted "most limited" small computer. Bull. Thousands of third-party developers of hardware and software produced every imaginable type of product for this machine. As regards Krakit, to my knowledge no one ever cracked it. I'll put out some feelers. > This game was published by International Publishing & Software Inc. It > seems like an awful lot of money for a relatively unknown outfit to be > offering. I wonder if it wasn't all just a sham, i.e. one of the clues > was so hard as to be impossible to solve :) I don't think it was a sham, it just didn't go over very well. > If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. Do you have a machine to run it on? Glen 0/0 From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 17 00:01:06 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Krakit References: <2f.6bb8109.267c5d08@aol.com> Message-ID: <394B0612.A27266CE@rain.org> If anyone has the game or puzzle, I would also be interested! And as with Sellam, I almost certainly have something it will run on. Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 06/16/2000 9:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > foo@siconic.com writes: > > > This is too cool. Advertised in the Dec/82 issue of Computers & > > Electronics, there's an ad on page 67 for a game for the TS-1000/ZX-81 > > called Krakit. It's a puzzle type adventure game. What makes it special > > is that the publisher put up a $20,000 prize for the first person who > > could crack it. > > > > "KRAKIT consists of 12 clues on a ready-to-run ZX81 or TS1000 cassette > > tape (16k RAM). The answer to each clue is the name of a country, or a > > city or town, and a number. If you are the first qualified entrant to > > solve all 12 clues and declared the winner, you receive two tickets to the > > city of the secret KRAKIT vault location. When you arrive at that > > location, a check for a minimum amount of $20,000.00 (U.S.) will be > > presented to you. The amount of the prize money is augmented weekly." > > > > Has anyone ever heard of this? Did anyone ever crack it? > > Sellam, if you ever read any of the Timex Sinclair related mags you would be > blown away. > > Not too long ago on this ng the TS1000/ZX81 was voted "most limited" small > computer. Bull. Thousands of third-party developers of hardware and > software produced every imaginable type of product for this machine. > > As regards Krakit, to my knowledge no one ever cracked it. I'll put out some > feelers. > > > This game was published by International Publishing & Software Inc. It > > seems like an awful lot of money for a relatively unknown outfit to be > > offering. I wonder if it wasn't all just a sham, i.e. one of the clues > > was so hard as to be impossible to solve :) > > I don't think it was a sham, it just didn't go over very well. > > > If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. > > Do you have a machine to run it on? > > Glen > 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 23:12:38 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Krakit In-Reply-To: <2f.6bb8109.267c5d08@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. > > Do you have a machine to run it on? "A" machine? The only thing I have more of than TS-1000/ZX-81's are C64's (they're like roaches). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 17 00:34:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: X1542 cable? Message-ID: Anyone know where to find info on building a X1542 cable for a C64 floppy drive, and getting the software? Someone on another list I'm on is looking for the info. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 17 00:59:53 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: X1542 cable? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 16, 0 10:34:02 pm" Message-ID: <200006170559.WAA13594@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Anyone know where to find info on building a X1542 cable for a C64 floppy ::drive, and getting the software? Someone on another list I'm on is looking ::for the info. An X154*2*? Don't you mean an X1541? The problem with the classic X1541 cable is that they have some real trouble on modern motherboards' LPT ports. The XE1541 is the standard nowadays -- similar design but with a little extra logic. See http://sta.c64.org/ for plans, and a very reputable guy who will manufacture and ship worldwide. I can vouch for him personally. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The world only beats a path to your door when you're in the bathroom. ------ From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Jun 17 01:06:47 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer Message-ID: <74.490f01.267c6f77@aol.com> It has a built in 5 meg hard drive interface so it should just need cabling to a hard drive. It also uses the 6502 as a video controller to offload the video from the Z80A. The Keyboard is a 93 key keyboard with 17 function keys. If you go back you might look around for it. It has the Visual 1050 Logo on it. There was a VT100 emulator program supplied. Wordstar 3.3 was adapted for it's special keyboard & it included Multiplan and GSS-Graph. New cost was $2695 with SW, in 1984. It is too bad many thrifts separate all of the component parts of the systems. Paxton From technoid at cheta.net Sat Jun 17 01:27:01 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <200006170622.CAA08249@lexington.ioa.net> In the past I have tried to write code to paper and failed to do much with it. Outlines are about as far as I can go. I did this because I wanted to continue work or pass the time when I didn't have a machine in front of me (in high-school or waiting in the Doctor's office). Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. In <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm>, on 06/17/00 at 02:27 AM, "Paul R. Santa-Maria" said: >---------- >> From: Douglas Quebbeman >> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' >> Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard >> Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM >> >> Since I compose >> to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some >> programmers compose directly into thr machine), >Because I can type much faster than I can write. >Paul R. Santa-Maria >Ann Arbor, Michigan USA >paulrsm@ameritech.net -- ----------------------------------------------------------- technoid@cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Sat Jun 17 01:35:19 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> I had a miniscribe 6085 in my 286 in the late 80's. It is an MFM (ST506 interface) drive with the same parameters as the Seagate ST4096. I think cylinders are 1024, heads at 9, and sectors per track at 17. The RLL model would have an 'R' appended to the model number and would have 26 sectors per track. You might be able to run the RLL model on an MFM controller as the difference between the two variations is mainly the platters. Rarely are the drives much different. I ran a 3650 for a couple of years on an Adaptec ACB4070 bridge controller and believe it or not they worked perfectly though they weren't rated for RLL linear density. Despite thier poor reliability record, I still like Miniscribe drives. They sound neat. "Peeep wobble wobble Peep". Western Digital bought what was left of Miniscribe and produced some really aweful drives when IDE was beginning to really catch on. I remember stacks of dead WD 40mb 3.5" drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did sound neat though..... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- technoid@cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 17 02:00:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: X1542 cable? In-Reply-To: <200006170559.WAA13594@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 16, 0 10:34:02 pm" Message-ID: >::Anyone know where to find info on building a X1542 cable for a C64 floppy >::drive, and getting the software? Someone on another list I'm on is looking >::for the info. > >An X154*2*? Don't you mean an X1541? Now wonder I couldn't find it :^) Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Fri Jun 16 23:10:16 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6085? Message-ID: <20000617073639.1832C36B3C@rhea.worldonline.nl> Sounds like it could be reformatted and used as an RD53 for use in a PDP-11 or microVax. Wim ---------- > >> 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might > >> even be a couple of them. > > > >I find no listing for a Miniscribe 6086. However, there were a 6085 and > >a 6985E which were 71mb and ST506 MFM and ESDI RLL respectively. > > Most likely it is the 6085. Sounds like it isn't worth removing though. > > From mmcmanus at direct.ca Sat Jun 17 03:56:11 2000 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (mike mcmanus) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer References: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000b01bfd839$e436df00$a18442d8@j8y1v1> I have doc's & software for it. There yours for the asking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 9:15 PM Subject: Visual 1050 computer > While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. > It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, > a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess > before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in > front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, > just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). > > I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. > It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. > > Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly > interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get > $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list > who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? > > Thanks for any info. > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 17 04:03:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:46 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <200006170622.CAA08249@lexington.ioa.net> References: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the paper, and then to the system. From guerney at bigpond.com Sat Jun 17 08:43:45 2000 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Computing History CD-ROM References: Message-ID: <006b01bfd862$3a335320$c88036cb@default> From: "Pat Barron" > Anyone know anything about the CD referred to at this link: > > http://members.aol.com/HistoryCD/HOC.html > > Is this worth having? > > --Pat. This CD is quite good - there is actually a lot of information in there, pictures, computer descriptions, company histories, biographies etc etc. It is a shame that it exists as two _totally_ disconnected parts. Some of it is in the form of HTML pages, and the rest as Windows Help files (they suggest using Alt-TAB to switch between the two parts - no links! - but there are reasonable links within each of the two parts). There are some contributions from others, such as section on "Shoebox Comptometers" - interesting, but contributes to a jumbled appearance. You keep getting a totally different "Table of Contents", "Index" or "Main" page when browsing different parts. Hidden within it all is stuff I have not seen anywhere else, like a list and some details of 100 computers that were under development between 1945 to 1955. Lots of chronologies, even one on software. The CD I got from Amazon a couple of months ago is Copyright 2000, but no one individual claims credit for it as far as I can see, but one or more people did a lot of work because it does not all appear to have been just lifted from the net. I have not had the chance to delve in detail to see if I can find any errors. I have lifted the following words from the Introduction HTML page to give the publishers own fuller description of what they provide. Phil (Brisbane - Australia) ================================= Introduction This book provides an introduction to the fascinating field of computing history. We have chosen to use an encyclopedia format to provide a wide coverage of the subject, both in terms of time periods and in the types of technologies addressed. This special Year 2000 Edition has been revised and expanded to take advantage of Web Browser technology for viewing the over 300 photos contained in this Encyclopedia The History of Computing Encyclopedia now consists of two parts: Part 1: The Text Portion, consisting of "Windows help file" type documents is accessed by clicking on START, PROGRAMS, HISTORY OF COMPUTING, from your Start menu bar. The text portion contains over 1,000 pages of information. Part 2: The Photo Gallery is accessed through your web browser. The Photo Gallery contains over 300 photos of early machines, computers, components, computer pioneers and more. Your Web Browser should be pointed to: C:\History1\01HISTORYCD-Welcome!.htm Keep both Parts 1 and 2 open and you can toggle back and forth using your Alt-Tab key combination, or your mouse. Contents: In this Encyclopedia you will find information on early calculators, early counting methods, early typewriting mechanisms, developments in vacuum tube technology and transistorized circuits, early electromechanical calculators, early electronic digital computers as well as modern microprocessor-based systems. We have also included information on many computer companies as well as brief biographical sketches of many computer pioneers. Also, this special edition of History of Computing contains Mr. Brooke W. Boering's fascinating historical pages and photos of the Comptometer adding machine. Industry Growth: The number of computers in the world has grown tremendously during the past 20 years. It is estimated that the total number of computers in the world is over 500 million. In the U.S. alone, there are an estimated 160 million computers, with 150 million of these being personal computers. This reference guide covers hundreds of calculators, early large computers and early microcomputers. No single book can cover the entire subject of computing. However, we hope that this unique CD ROM guide will provide you with valuable information that will spark your interest towards further exploration of this fascinating subject. Our Goals are to: - Increase the appreciation of computer history as a valuable topic of study; - Provide a computer-based reference guide to make learning fun and easy; - Provide a general overview of the subject of computing technology; and - Spark your interest in the field and excite you into further reading and exploration! From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 17 08:57:35 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer References: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> <000b01bfd839$e436df00$a18442d8@j8y1v1> Message-ID: <005301bfd863$fee75a80$1a711fd1@default> If he does not want them I will gladly take the doc's and software as I have one of these machines also. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: mike mcmanus To: Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 3:56 AM Subject: Re: Visual 1050 computer > I have doc's & software for it. There yours for the asking. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Battle > To: > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 9:15 PM > Subject: Visual 1050 computer > > > > While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. > > It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, > > a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess > > before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in > > front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, > > just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). > > > > I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. > > It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. > > > > Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly > > interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get > > $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list > > who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? > > > > Thanks for any info. > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Jun 17 06:36:38 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Charles On 16-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something >> simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > concerned, it's "trash".... > >> They don't grow them anymore. > > Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out > hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling > away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old > computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? I've heard that the C=64 is still very popular with the Geritol set (senior citizens). Many just don't want to spend the kind of bucks needed for a Winblows box. Don't know if the same is true for the TI99/4 . . . I remember years back there was a good sized following considering it was one of the first orphaned computers. I've even got one of those in my closet, waiting for a cassette cable, or a new home for someone who really wants one. As far as junk, they thought that of the Edsel, Desoto, Studebaker and Packard, when they were not that old. Given time, everything is worth more thn it is now. Gasoline seems to be a good example . . . . > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jun 17 09:39:00 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer In-Reply-To: <000b01bfd839$e436df00$a18442d8@j8y1v1> References: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000617073820.00ad5900@pacbell.net> At 01:56 AM 6/17/00 -0700, you wrote: >I have doc's & software for it. There yours for the asking. I'm going back to the store to see if it is still there. If they still have it, I'll pick it up, and then I'd love to take you up on the offer. It sounds like an interesting machine. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 17 10:05:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I'm on vacation so wait a week for more detail. The winchester port is nto quite as it requires an external adaprtor that getyou you SCSI to an ADATEK or other SCSI bridge to MFM disk. It uses a seperate monitor MGAish, and keyboard(non pc compatable). I'd consider one clean with tube and keyboard for 50-100$ a good deal. If with hard disk box better yet. the two floppies are single sided 96tpi teac fd55-f drives so it does/can do RX50 formats and a few others. It's CA.1985 and a good example of how a 4mhz z80 cpm box can be pushed. The graphics is done by a seperate 6502 so teh z80 is not loaded by that task and ther is 128k ram for the z80 with mmu. This is not the usual Z80 cpm machine. It was sold with CPM-3 on it. I have three of them and full disks/docs. Allison On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. > It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, > a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess > before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in > front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, > just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). > > I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. > It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. > > Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly > interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get > $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list > who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? > > Thanks for any info. > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From transit at lerctr.org Sat Jun 17 10:08:07 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > I've heard that the C=64 is still very popular with the Geritol set (senior > citizens). Many just don't want to spend the kind of bucks needed for a > Winblows box. > > Don't know if the same is true for the TI99/4 I was in a small TI-club around 1992-1995. I was usually the youngest person there (about 25, while everyone else was in their 50's and 60's). There were younger folks into the TI back then, but it seemed like all of them were from Europe (Germany and Holland mostly) >. . . I remember years back > there was a good sized following considering it was one of the first > orphaned computers. Actually there was a lot of third-party support for it, and there was even a "clone" of sorts (the Myarc Geneve, which used an improved video chip). I think the TI scene got real quiet after the last Fest West in 99, Micropendium (the last major TI magazine) stopped publishing, etc., although users and support for the machines do exist. > I've even got one of those in my closet, waiting for a > cassette cable, or a new home for someone who really wants one. > The consoles were actually pretty common (TI was selling them for as low as $50 during the 1983 shakeout). Other parts (disk drives, expansion boxes, etc.) I don't really see as much anymore. > As far as junk, they thought that of the Edsel, Desoto, Studebaker and > Packard, when they were not that old. Given time, everything is worth more > thn it is now. Gasoline seems to be a good example . . . . Hmm... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 17 13:28:51 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: Re: Programming on Paper (Mike Ford) References: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <14667.50019.854468.677900@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > paper, and then to the system. Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) -Dave McGuire From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 17 13:36:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:08:07AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000617143618.A29142@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:08:07AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: [re TI99/4A] >Actually there was a lot of third-party support for it, and there >was even a "clone" of sorts (the Myarc Geneve, which used an improved >video chip). Oh god, people remember THAT thing ... it was designed by another RPI guy who was one of my roommates at the time, he was doing a co-op at Myarc while a junior (?) at RPI. He also plagiarized a paint program for the Geneve, from another roommate who wrote it for fun, which became Myart (originally called "Easel" by its true author, David Klotzkin). Myarc never did finish making the royalty payments to Dave after the shit hit the fan on that one (boy was he pissed when he realized what had happened). The designer (whom I'd rather not name) had previously done a ROM update for a Myarc floppy controller, evidently whatever he was adding made the code a bit too big for the ROM so he had to do lots of bumming to squeeze it in, a process which he narrated practically byte-by-byte to the rest of us -- anything for attention! I really got the impression that he chose the TI99, not because it's a great machine (it sure isn't!), but because there weren't too many talented hackers producing anything for it and he liked the chance to be a big fish in a little pond. I went along to a TI user's group meeting near Boston with him in the mid 80s and I couldn't believe the ovation he got when they announced he was there, he absolutely reveled in it. Anyway obviously the guy had really serious personality/ethics/ego problems, but he was a sharp kid. The Geneve (well, prototypes anyway, that's all I ever saw) used a PC/XT keyboard instead of the nasty squished TI thing, and could run SCSI disks, and IIRC it had some sort of memory mapper too (maybe just an 'LS612, who knows), and through all of this it was TI99 compatible, more or less at least. Not bad for an undergrad... A pretty good chunk of his rent/food were paid for by the $10 registration fees for his "Fast Term" terminal program which was on Compuserve, evidently it was pretty popular (I gather it was unusual in being able to go above 1200 baud). We got pretty tired of the 6-tone sequence it would squeak out on every ^G though, he had hacked that in as a joke but evidently it ended up being permanent. IIRC the machine's startup screen logo was a nice picture of a swan, drawn by Mi Kyung Kim, the designer's girlfriend. (She was later shot by Colin Ferguson on the LIRR.) Somewhere buried in the ROM was a joke version of the same picture (cartoon style knockout shot with crossed eyes, stars orbiting around its head etc.), that is unless Myarc found out and removed it. Evidently at some point, Myarc wasn't happy about the rate of progress so they (IIRC "they" means Lou Philips and/or his lawyer) showed up at our apartment in person to chew him out, but he bravely hid out in the bathroom. We all thought that was the funniest damn thing! Always a soap opera... John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 17 13:45:32 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? Message-ID: Greetings, Can somene kindly tell me how to lock/unlock the heads on a CDC model PA5N1F15 9" hard drive? I don't see anything that looks like a way to look/unlock the drive when I examine it; do the heads lock/unlock automagically? BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? Wow, this is one heavy, and beautiful drive... looks like a cast-iron housing too! Since the date on the label is 1985 (or 86? I don't recall at the moment), and the HDA media defect information sheet is dated 1998, it looks like I've may have a relatively new drive assembly! :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From transit at lerctr.org Sat Jun 17 13:59:43 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <20000617143618.A29142@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: [...] Myarc Geneve > > more or less at least. Not bad for an undergrad... A pretty good chunk of > his rent/food were paid for by the $10 registration fees for his "Fast Term" > terminal program which was on Compuserve, evidently it was pretty popular > (I gather it was unusual in being able to go above 1200 baud). We got pretty > tired of the 6-tone sequence it would squeak out on every ^G though, he had > hacked that in as a joke but evidently it ended up being permanent. Wasn't that sequence taken from one of the demo programs in the Editor/Assembler manual? > > IIRC the machine's startup screen logo was a nice picture of a swan, drawn > by Mi Kyung Kim, the designer's girlfriend. (She was later shot by Colin > Ferguson on the LIRR.) I heard about that. Wasn't that about the time that Jim "Tigercub" Peterson passed on? Not a particularly happy issue of Micropendium, that one... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 12:48:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: More Stuff In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 0 04:39:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/ba338d39/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 12:57:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jun 16, 0 05:57:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1529 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/96749d8d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 13:10:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at Jun 16, 0 08:29:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/f340e3c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 13:14:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <30.66aa642.267c429e@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jun 16, 0 10:55:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/c67b6e3e/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jun 17 14:15:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000617121429.00d0ad00@208.226.86.10> >Since the date on the label is 1985 (or 86? I don't recall at the >moment), and the HDA media defect information sheet is dated 1998, it >looks like I've may have a relatively new drive assembly! :-) You have a refurbished drive. Someone sent it back to the factory, had it refurbished and probably had it in their spares stock. --Chuck From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jun 17 14:03:26 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: E-mail style (was Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:16:45 +0100 (BST)" References: Message-ID: <200006171903.MAA23585@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Seriously, unless there are very good reasons not to, people who send me > HTML mail get ignored (especially if they're asking me for help). And > this will continue. Tony's getting close to the point here: when you post to a mailing list or a newsgroup, you're writing for an audience. If you want your message to be read, you should make it easy for that audience to read the message. Else you run the risk that your audience will not bother, there being 72 other unread messages in the classiccmp in-box this morning. If what you're going on about isn't obvious to me somewhere in the first screenful or two, I'm going to hit the 'n' key and move along. Putting something relevant in the Subject: header can help me make a more informed decision. So can trimming quoted text to just the relevant portions: if I see a couple or three screenfuls of quoting, or can't tell whether I'm seeing quoted or original text, I begin to wonder whether it's worth looking further for something new. Same if I can't find the text for all the markup tags. -Frank McConnell From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 17 15:20:27 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Stuff Message-ID: <20000617202027.71285.qmail@hotmail.com> >Here's something for the Commodore fans (same page). >I've never heard of >this one before: > >CBM 16-bitter. The BX256 is a multiprocessor system >using a 6509 and 8088 >with an optional Z80, 256K of >internal RAM expandable to 640K externally, >40K of ROM, >and interfaces for IEEE-488, RS232, CBM cassette, 8-bit >user >port, and a carthridge slot. The green phosphor >video monitor has >80-columns of 25 lines and has >tilt/swivel controls. The detachable >94-key keyboard >includes a separate numeric keypad featuring a >double->zero key, clear entry key, and a double-size enter key >for ease of >use. The keyboard also has 10 user->definable keys. A built-in 6581 CPU >allows a full 3->voice, 9-octave music synthesizer having an output for >an >external audio system. A dual disk drive is built in >as is a realtime >clock. Software includes BASIC 4.0, >with options of CP/M, CP/M-86, and >UCSD Pascal. The >BX256 micro processor system supportsd all CBM > >peripherals. >Planned price is $2995. Address: Commodore Business >Machines Inc., The >Meadows, 487 Devon Park Drive, Wayne, >PA 19087. I hate to bust your bubble, but this machine was never released. The machine has a CBM tape port, but the ROM has no driving code for it. Commodore's 6509-based machines were never popular to begin with & cost way to much to manufacture, also, C= executives noticed how well the '64 was selling, and, well, you can figure out what happened after that (wither 6509). ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jun 17 15:36:50 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: VAXStation VLC's still available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000617133650.0096ee00@pop.sttl.uswest.net> CC to CLASSICCMP and port-VAX... Hi, folks, As of last weekend, when I was at RE-PC, I noticed that the VAXStation VLC pile still seemed to be the same height. My guess is that the initial asking price was high enough to scare people off. Well, let me put it this way. Mark (one of RE-PC's owners) probably needs the floor space a lot more than the VAXen, so make an offer on a VLC while they're still there! I suggest starting at $20-$25 plus shipping. Since the VLC pile hadn't moved, I'm willing to bet that the 4000/90 is still at the bottom of it. If you want to get in on this, give Mark Dabek a call (206-575-8737), tell him I referred you, and go from there. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jun 17 15:41:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Haggle stuff Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000617134125.00953750@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Oh, BTW, I almost forgot... I have a couple of books up on Haggle under 'Antique Computers.' One of them is an HP binder with a few CE manuals in it that cover, among other things, the 7000-series disk drives, and the other is a DEC book: "Programming in VAX-11 C". The H19 terminal is still there, no bids yet, and there's also a head-mounted display for PCs made by Reflection Technology (it's dated from around 1989, so it meets the ten-year rule). Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 17 17:14:51 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 01:59:43PM -0500 References: <20000617143618.A29142@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000617181451.A29508@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 01:59:43PM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: [6-tone beep in TI99 FastTerm] >Wasn't that sequence taken from one of the demo programs in the >Editor/Assembler manual? Well that would figure! That ^G is the only time I can remember his computer making sound so he may not have been a wiz at programming the sound port (I forget, is it that weird GI chip that MicroMint used to use too?), that would explain referring to the example but it's not reason to snip it out entirely... >I heard about that. Wasn't that about the time that Jim "Tigercub" >Peterson passed on? Not a particularly happy issue of Micropendium, that >one... Beats me, the name sounds very slightly familiar but I was never a TI99 guy. I think the Colin Ferguson thing was roughly the same time as OJ's little adventure, the trials were more or less concurrent (but Ferguson's was a lot more fun to watch!!!). I wonder what ever happened to Ferguson's appeal, IIRC he got 5 life sentences so I naturally figured he was looking to get it cut down to just 3 life sentences. :-) That would be about in character. John Wilson D Bit From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jun 17 17:51:02 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: "R. D. Davis"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:42:37 -0400 (EDT)" References: Message-ID: <200006172251.PAA29587@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > One slight problem: I'm told that the PSU is bad. Upon removing the > cover from the PSU, I noticed that there are three plug-in boards in > the PSU, and one empty PCB connector, the second one back from the > front. Is this circuit board supposed to be missing? I've not teted > the PSU yet, as I didn't know if doing so with this (optional? a > regulator for a voltage this system doesn't need?) board removed will > damage it. Is it safe to power it up with this board missing? Very likely. I pulled the 1000E Installation and Service Manual (HP p/n 02109-90015, dated Nov 1979) and it would appear that the board your power supply is missing is p/n 5061-1349, the battery backup board, which is only present in 1000Es with the battery backup option. To confirm this, there should be another board, 5061-1351, in another slot in the power supply -- this is a jumper board that is used in place of 5061-1348, the battery charger board, when the battery backup option is not present. I think you'll find this latter board in the slot closer to the front. Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly (A6) that is visible when you remove the top cover, and the main adjustment is the +5V ADJ potentiometer that is visible on the power supply board that is partially exposed when you lower the front cover: it's the one that is under the LOCK/OPERATE switch. Supply voltages are: supply v max cur upper lim lower lim test point +5V I/O 50A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5V +5V M 4.5A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5M +12V I/O 2.5A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12V +12V M 2.0A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12 M -2V I/O 4.0A -2.2Vdc -1.8Vdc A6 -2V -12V I/O 2.0A -12.6Vdc -11.4Vdc n/a -12V M 250mA -16Vdc -9Vdc A6 -12M (unregulated) +30V I/O 250mA 42Vdc 22Vdc A6 J2 pin 4 (unregulated) The general thing to do at initial checkout is to adjust the +5V ADJ pot 'til the first of these is at +5.15 +/-0.05 volts, then check the other voltages to make sure they're within range. OK, so what about troubleshooting? There's a flowchart, which I'm not going to try to turn into ASCII, but here's the first question after you turn the machine on: are fans running? Beyond that...well, this flowchart looks like it's intended to help you troubleshoot to board level and in some cases transistor level. So supposing the fans are running, the next questions are whether +5V is present at the crossover board test point, and whether it is adjustable as described above. Feel free to ask questions, I'll keep the manual out for the next few days. -Frank McConnell From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 17 18:08:58 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I had a miniscribe 6085 in my 286 in the late 80's. It is an MFM (ST506 > interface) drive with the same parameters as the Seagate ST4096. I think > cylinders are 1024, heads at 9, and sectors per track at 17. The RLL > model would have an 'R' appended to the model number and would have 26 > sectors per track. > > You might be able to run the RLL model on an MFM controller as the > difference between the two variations is mainly the platters. Rarely are > the drives much different. I ran a 3650 for a couple of years on an > Adaptec ACB4070 bridge controller and believe it or not they worked > perfectly though they weren't rated for RLL linear density. > > Despite thier poor reliability record, I still like Miniscribe drives. > They sound neat. "Peeep wobble wobble Peep". Western Digital bought what > was left of Miniscribe and produced some really aweful drives when IDE was Not so, Maxtor took over Miniscribe. WD bought Jugi Tandon's hard drive business. - don > beginning to really catch on. I remember stacks of dead WD 40mb 3.5" > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > sound neat though..... > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > technoid@cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jun 17 18:19:24 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 References: <3.0.5.32.20000617133650.0096ee00@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <394C077C.67A0DF4@ecubics.com> Hi all, anybody out here has the KXT11-AB Manual ? Any documentation about the T11 chip ? Thanks a lot in advance, emanuel From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 17 18:13:21 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <20000616181452.28753.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <394BA3A1.6032.1F1B47A0@localhost> Re: Organization: Wayne State University From: jbmcb@hotmail.com > I vote that workstation hardware older than 7 years old counts as a classic, > if it's oddball enough. PA-RISC is pretty oddball in my opinion. Oddly enough, the first PA-RISC box we bought was a used HP 9000/834 from ... yes ... Wayne State University (IIRC). Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 17 14:19:57 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> References: Message-ID: <20000617231814.DOXL18496.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:35:19 -0400 > From: technoid@cheta.net > Subject: Re: Miniscribe 6086? > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Snip! > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > sound neat though..... WD was chip maker till they bought out Tandon. In that few years, all of their 20-40-60MB were all steppers and exact same design that Tandon originally designed for 3.5" years back. WD's early HH 3.5" was the basis for all their early 1" height drives but it was so utter unreliable still. Miniscribe was bought out by Maxtor for no reason. Maxtor was famillar enough with voice coil and not as good as Miniscribe still back then. I wondered why many time "Why was the Maxtor looking for when they have Miniscribe's IP in hand?" Only I can see is their Maxtor-designed 7000 series that it. What else? Now, Maxtor is getting better now I think hopefully. I find that stepper has their place and with my experience all die when they're faster than 65ms average seek time. Including Seagate. To seek faster, voice coil is the solution. I once saw a Miniscribe or Maxtor 5.25" FH with 8 or 10 platters w/ voice coil type in a natural colored potmetal oval clamshell split in the middle where spindle axle is and ribbed in whole length of it. What was the series of this one? Wizard From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 17 18:44:26 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: <20000617231814.DOXL18496.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:35:19 -0400 > > From: technoid@cheta.net > > Subject: Re: Miniscribe 6086? > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Snip! > > > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > > sound neat though..... > > WD was chip maker till they bought out Tandon. In that few years, > all of their 20-40-60MB were all steppers and exact same design that > Tandon originally designed for 3.5" years back. WD's early HH 3.5" > was the basis for all their early 1" height drives but it was so > utter unreliable still. > > Miniscribe was bought out by Maxtor for no reason. Maxtor was IIRC, Miniscribe was just anout to go belly-up, and Maxtor prevented that. - don > famillar enough with voice coil and not as good as Miniscribe still > back then. I wondered why many time "Why was the Maxtor looking for > when they have Miniscribe's IP in hand?" Only I can see is their > Maxtor-designed 7000 series that it. What else? > > Now, Maxtor is getting better now I think hopefully. > > I find that stepper has their place and with my experience all die > when they're faster than 65ms average seek time. Including Seagate. > To seek faster, voice coil is the solution. > > I once saw a Miniscribe or Maxtor 5.25" FH with 8 or 10 platters w/ > voice coil type in a natural colored potmetal oval clamshell split > in the middle where spindle axle is and ribbed in whole length of it. > What was the series of this one? > > Wizard > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 19:32:14 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 Message-ID: <000617203214.262003b1@trailing-edge.com> >anybody out here has the KXT11-AB Manual ? > >Any documentation about the T11 chip ? I've got the KXT11-CA book on microfiche. Is that close enough? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 17 19:46:28 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <200006161944.MAA23320@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <394C1BE4.D1956829@rain.org> Dwight Elvey wrote: > > I still think it would be to Ebays advantage to keep such > things as at least item, purchase price, seller and buyer. > I often look to use what resources they have. Finding buyers > of rare old equipment is desirable. Keeping a list While ebay doesn't keep stuff very long (2 weeks after the auction IIRC), they do better than the other places who don't seem to have a clue how useful past auctions are and don't offer that info at all! From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jun 17 20:17:16 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 References: <000617203214.262003b1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <394C231C.F147CA1@ecubics.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >anybody out here has the KXT11-AB Manual ? > > > >Any documentation about the T11 chip ? > > I've got the KXT11-CA book on microfiche. Is that close enough? Sorry, no. I got the kxt11-ca user's guide myself (it is still orderable ;-)) I'm really looking for the old kxt11-ab one. The double not quad card :-( Thanks, emanuel From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 17 20:19:29 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: E-mail style (was Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation) References: <200006171903.MAA23585@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <394C23A1.58B2122D@rain.org> Frank McConnell wrote: > > If what you're going on about isn't obvious to me somewhere in the > first screenful or two, I'm going to hit the 'n' key and move along. I see I am not the only person that refuses to wade through a lot of irrevelent and/or quoted postings. If more than the first six or so lines of a message don't get to the point, I won't waste my time trying to find out if they are worth reading ... they aren't. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:17:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> (message from Chuck McManis on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:57:12 -0700) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000618011733.7443.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > As you have no doubt noticed, this email is "formatted" with HTML and > should you choose to view it in an HTML aware window it could include > emphasis and underlines that were pretty darn unobtrusive. Actually your message wasn't really valid HTML since the message you quoted using the right angle brackets (as I've quoted your message above) should really have ">" instead. But your point is well-taken. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:18:38 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:44:58 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000618011838.7460.qmail@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), What's a super-12? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:20:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <20000616221022.B27797@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:10:22 -0400) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost> <20000616221022.B27797@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000618012053.7481.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Hmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar. I kind of think I vaguely remember > reading magazine articles in the early 80s about the /// being discontinued > and then re-introduced in "new & improved" form. But I wouldn't know... The Apple ///+. Very short product life. > Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop the > entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering it > on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew > through the oxide? Wild... Not in the user manual, but some people did it. The problem was that Apple used bargain-basement DIP sockets on the early machines. In shipping the chips would work loose. Back then there shouldn't yet have been too much trouble with oxidation, but there certainly is now. The "correct" fix is obviously to open it up and reseat the ICs. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:26:05 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> (mgregory@vantageresearch.com) References: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <20000618012605.7536.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Any other examples of semi-official fixes like this one? The only other one I saw someone at Apple explain the semi-official fix for the Seagate drive stiction problem, or was it the Quantum lubrication problem? I forget. It went something like this: 1. Disk drives are mechanically delicate devices. Handle them carefully and do not subject them to unnecessary shock. 2. The drive electronics are static sensitive. Make sure you take all the precautions against static discharge, including using a grounded wrist strap, etc. 3. Carefully open the computer. 4. Carefully disconnect the cables from the disk drive. Remember, the cables are delicate and the pins are easily bent. 5. Remove the screws holding the drive in place. Don't drop the drive! 6. Remove the drive. 7. Hold the drive in one hand, a few feet above a very sturdy surface. 8. Whack the drive against the surface as hard as you can. 9 & up: [reinstall drive in computer, roughly the reverse of the steps above.] As I recall, the instructions were in fact even more anal-retentive about careful handling of the drive (prior to the whacking part). :-) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 17 20:46:52 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: In a message dated 6/17/00 9:25:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eric@brouhaha.com writes: > > Hmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar. I kind of think I vaguely > remember > > reading magazine articles in the early 80s about the /// being > discontinued > > and then re-introduced in "new & improved" form. But I wouldn't know... > > The Apple ///+. Very short product life. > > > Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop > the > > entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering > it > > on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew > > through the oxide? Wild... > > Not in the user manual, but some people did it. The problem was that Apple > used bargain-basement DIP sockets on the early machines. In shipping the > chips would work loose. Back then there shouldn't yet have been too much > trouble with oxidation, but there certainly is now. The "correct" fix is > obviously to open it up and reseat the ICs. not only that, but the memory board is mounted above the main board on metal standoffs with no other support. (at least on the 256k /// i had) Over the years, that board had become permanetly warped due to sagging in the middle and the attachment screws being overtorqued. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 17 21:52:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006172251.PAA29587@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Greetings, Thanks for the help with the 1000E's PSU! On 17 Jun 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: [...] > board your power supply is missing is p/n 5061-1349, the battery > backup board, which is only present in 1000Es with the battery Good; I won't have to go hunting down a missing board. :-) > backup option. To confirm this, there should be another board, [...] I'll look for this. > Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it > installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly Just to be on the safe side, I'll try it out of the computer first if it will work with no load just to make sure that there aren't any bad spikes or voltages way too high - using something else to load it if necessary. If ok, then I'll reinstall the PSU and make any necessary adjustments. [voltages, test points, adjustments] Ok, I'll check those to see which ones aren't working or are out of spec., if the fans are running, etc. > Feel free to ask questions, I'll keep the manual out for the next few > days. Will do. Thanks! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 18 00:05:57 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <20000618011838.7460.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > What's a super-12? PDP-12 #10 is the super-12 (non-official term) that includes the floating point option and an RK05. Interestingly, the RK05 is run from a standard RK8E embedded in a chassis behind the -12s covers. There is a special interface to get the PDP-12 (I forget if it is negibus or posibus) to talk to the "processor-less PDP-8/e" within. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rexstout at uswest.net Sun Jun 18 01:26:02 2000 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: New stuff! Wahoo! Message-ID: Added about a dozen boxes of Macintosh software and some minor hardware items to the collection, as well as a TRS-80 Model 100 with some books and a few ROM modules. Seems to be working just fine, but the bottom is covered in duct tape to keep some covers from falling off. Even got a modem cable! Oh yeah, and three boxes of aviation material, including several flight computers(Jeppesen CR-5 and CR-2, a plastic Dalton E-6B, a Cessna Model 185 computer, a Delta II Take-off computer, a half-plastic half-metal Dalton E-6B, a pair of CPU-26A/P's(all-metal), and a pair of Weems aircraft plotters). In the Mac stuff there are tons of programs, at least a half dozen copies of PageMaker, lots of odds and ends(what the heck do you do with a financial planner desk accessory? I don't even know if MacOS 8 supports those!) that I haven't sorted through yet. The MacSnap box was empty :-(, but there was an external 800k floppy drive. Anyone know of any good sites for TRS-80 stuff? OK, now the interesting part... It's an 8-volume book set called "The Secret Guide to Computers", tenth edition. Popular BASIC(Vol 1), Popular Systems(Vol 3), Popular Applications(Vol 5), Popular Languages(Vol 7), and then Hassles in BASIC(Vol 2), Hassles in Systems(Vol 4), Hassles in Applications(Vol 6) and Hassles in Languages(Vol 8). -- /--------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \--------------------------------------------------/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 18 01:10:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: New stuff! Wahoo! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >OK, now the interesting part... It's an 8-volume book set called >"The Secret Guide to Computers", tenth edition. Popular BASIC(Vol 1), >Popular Systems(Vol 3), Popular Applications(Vol 5), Popular >Languages(Vol 7), and then Hassles in BASIC(Vol 2), Hassles in >Systems(Vol 4), Hassles in Applications(Vol 6) and Hassles in >Languages(Vol 8). >-- Hey, if these are what I think they are they're pretty cool, though I thought there was just 3 volumes. Are they about 8.5x11, and .5-1 inch thick? ISTR, the volume 3 as being a 'interesting' look at the computers available in the early to mid-80's. I'm pretty sure I've got the first 3, but they seem to have lost the bookcase space fight at some point and been moved to storage as they're no longer where I thought they were :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 18 01:12:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 In-Reply-To: <394C231C.F147CA1@ecubics.com> References: <000617203214.262003b1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >I'm really looking for the old kxt11-ab one. The double not quad card >:-( > >Thanks, >emanuel Out of curiousity what are you trying to do with the card? It looks like a mildly interesting card. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 18 01:31:44 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <20000618012605.7536.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:26:05AM -0000 References: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> <20000618012605.7536.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000618023144.A30321@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:26:05AM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >I saw someone at Apple explain the semi-official fix for the Seagate drive >stiction problem, or was it the Quantum lubrication problem? I forget. [...] >8. Whack the drive against the surface as hard as you can. Back before I got tired of being Seagate's bitch, I used to use this same operation w/o bothering with the disassembly/reassembly steps. I'd just whack the shit out of my PC, and it would start working again. I was pleasantly surprised, each time I was so pissed off that I didn't really care whether I got my data back, I just wanted the #~!% Seagate drive to die Die DIE!!! I've since learned my lesson, I'll buy any piece of crap as long as it's not Seagate (or Maxtor, blech), everything else seems to be perfectly reliable enough. I especially liked Conner, no wonder Seagate had to kill them. John Wilson D Bit From nabil at spiritone.com Sun Jun 18 07:14:32 2000 From: nabil at spiritone.com (Aaron Nabil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > What's a super-12? > > PDP-12 #10 is the super-12 (non-official term) that includes the floating > point option and an RK05. Interestingly, the RK05 is run from a standard > RK8E embedded in a chassis behind the -12s covers. There is a special > interface to get the PDP-12 (I forget if it is negibus or posibus) to > talk to the "processor-less PDP-8/e" within. That would be a DW8E. -- Aaron Nabil From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 18 11:20:40 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 Message-ID: Greetings, is anyone here familiar with an NCR model 3401, class 5451 "application processor"? On a hand-written label on the front of the machine there's a description of the memory in it: 8MB, 145ns. This box has the following switches on the front panel, in addition to the power switch: Station ID (two thumbwheels) Load options: local/aux disk/tape primary OS/alt OS BCD restart/system reset diag port: on/off mode: normal/diagnostic ps margin: +5%/normal/-5% On the back of the machine are the following connectors: LS link (low speed link?): pos 0, pos1, pos2 (9-pin) Diagostic port (25-pin - RS232 port?) System bus: channel A, channel B (9-pin) HS link (high speed linl?): pos 4, pos 5, pos6, pos7 (9-pin) One interesting thing about this system is a board labeled "writeable control store" - does anyone know it this is user microprogrammable? On this board are about 45 AMD (I think) 8648 ICs and about 27 8651 ICs, in addition to what I think may be EEPROMs (Fairchild MB7142H), as well as morotola 8644A, 8644B, 8648 and 8649 chips and a few other ICs. Attached to this board is a other board that is apparently the main part of the CPU with about 6 (from what I recall) square ICs, about 1" square, with heat-sinks that I haven't figured out how to remove yet to see the part numbers. Did anyone here purchase the machine like this that was listed on e-bay? Another apparently related NCR box that appeas to connect to the SMD drive only has the following indentification on it: "class H6830-STD1-01-46." Coming out the back are three cables: one that looks like it's got about 50 conductors in it, and two that appear to have about 20 to 25 conductors (these are just my guesses, haven't counted them). There are also two 50-pin connectors. I think this connects to the hard disk, but I can't figure out how, or if, it connects to the model 3401. Is anyone here familiar with the above equipment? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 18 12:20:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 18, 0 12:20:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000618/ea193183/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 18 12:16:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:47 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 17, 0 10:52:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000618/2999fc6a/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 18 14:34:26 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > HP were fond of suggesting that you do this :-(, even on machines where > the PSU could easily fail in a way that the 5V output went up to a very > high level (like 30V!) I often wondered if it was to sell more CPU boards > ;-). Zog! Why can't they build power supplies with a dummy load built in, or at least a dummy load and a "test" switch so that the dummy load isn't attached to the output when the computer is? > > Just to be on the safe side, I'll try it out of the computer first if > > it will work with no load just to make sure that there aren't any bad > > Be warned that a lot of HP PSUs of the early 1970's vintage (at least) > don't like being run with no load. I normally load them with a 6V 5W or > 6V 21W bulb (depending on the rating of the PSU) before turning them on. I'll try to find a bulb to use. Is it only the 5V supply that has to be loaded? I've got a resistor that was used for loading a Sun shoebox with a tape drive and no PSU; I wonder if that would work. I'll have to see what value it is; about a 10W resistor, IIRC. Of course, if the PSU has no lose bits in it, and has already been turned on by someone else before I got it, hasn't any damage that's going to be done already been done? Hopefully I'll not get LARTed for asking this, but, how likely am I to do any additional damage at this point by turning it on attached to the sytem and checking the voltages? > Some service manuals warn (in bold printing) against running the PSU > board with no load (it may even imply that the only load you can use is > the CPU board!). I have never tried to run a PSU like that unloaded, so I > have no idea what would happen, but I can't think it would be a good idea. Thanks for the warning! > really going on and work out my own set of tests. Mainly because I then > understand what I am measuring and can make valid deductions if (for > example) I see a very odd voltage or waveform at a particular point. Makes sense; after all, that's what schematics are for, or, don't people know how to read them these days? Alas, I don't have a set of schematics, and will have to settle for whatever info. I can get from someone who has any troubleshooting information - within reason, of course. > For much the same reason I've never found signature analysis to be a > particularly useful technique. What's signature analysis? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 18 15:02:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 18, 0 03:34:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000618/110dc217/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 18 16:28:26 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Blah this is no longer about Tek anything so die subject line die Message-ID: <20000618212826.75123.qmail@hotmail.com> a 20 year old MicroVAX II?... That's pretty amazing, since the MicroVAX II is 1986ish or so... MicroVAX I isn't even 20 years old yet, getting close, but not there. Just my two cents worth of picking nits. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 13:21:11 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Digital tower with processor card 486dx2 w/ 256K cache, six 72pin slots and onboard scsi. DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so many worked with digital/DEC equipment. Tinkering with it produced few surprises, ram issue and several undocumented jumpers on the processor card. When trying to run 3 pairs of simms in it, I still get 16MB if as it has 2 pairs of ram installed. This is one of few machines that must be run with simms in pairs. I would love to get it to full capacity of 24MB. I need to know the jumpers on that processor card as well, this might be a reason for this memory issue. Also must this machine require parity simms? Didn't try it with non-parity simms yet. And I'm looking for a pentium or alpha processor card for this DECpc XL 466DX2 Thanks. Wizard From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 18 17:56:59 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: [DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww] > I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so > many worked with digital/DEC equipment. Yes, but real DEC equipment, not the Intel-impaired equipment made by DEC during it's decline. > And I'm looking for a pentium or alpha processor card for this > DECpc XL 466DX2 Perhaps you can trade it in on a classic computer and then not have to worry about that. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 14:14:21 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: References: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <20000618231236.PUBX18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:56:59 -0400 (EDT) > From: "R. D. Davis" > Subject: Re: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > [DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww] > > I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so > > many worked with digital/DEC equipment. > > Yes, but real DEC equipment, not the Intel-impaired equipment made by > DEC during it's decline. No wonder with that ram size problem and using Intel chipsets. Oh well, I can give it back or use it as is or sell it for some thing else. > Perhaps you can trade it in on a classic computer and then not have > to worry about that. Sounds good but this thing weighs about 25 to 30 lbs in that configuration without any HDs. Heavy and will cost bit quite for shipping! Cheers, Wizard From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 18 23:06:05 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: <200006170307.UAA39779@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000619000605.006b9ee0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:07 PM 6/16/00 -0700, Frank McConnell wrote: -snip- >That would be about right, I think. The HP terminals that I'm >familiar with generally had cables whose far ends were a >DB25 plug that wanted to plug into a DCE-flavored connector. > >Good luck! Well, I made the cable and plugged it into a terminal. The right voltages appear on the correct lines. However, the card never asserts DTR or RTS when I turn the computer on. I also discovered that the HD in the 7946 is busted (haven't opened it yet)-the "online" light doesn't come on, but the "fault" light does. It seems to have trouble spinning up. So, loading an OS is out of the question for a while. Is it possible to at least run some tests and have it output diagnostics to one of the BACI cards? There is a sheet of paper glued to the front panel with instructions on how to reboot the system; it says to load the S/s register with ones in bits 15,14,9, and 6, then hit the store, preset, some other button, then preset again and finally the run button. This is from memory; the machine is at work. I've done that, but nothing seems to happen. The only sign of activity is immediately after turning the machine on; a LED on one of the memory cards lights up for about two seconds, then turns off. carlos. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 19 00:06:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> References: Message-ID: Since your only response so far was so rude, I decided to see what I could come up with. The system might not be old enough to be on topic, but it does look like a nicely constructed piece of gear. Unfortuantly the only thing I was able to dig up was a Systems and Options Catalogue, but it pointed me in the right direction. >Digital tower with processor card 486dx2 w/ 256K cache, six 72pin >slots and onboard scsi. DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww > >I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so >many worked with digital/DEC equipment. > >Tinkering with it produced few surprises, ram issue and several >undocumented jumpers on the processor card. > >When trying to run 3 pairs of simms in it, I still get 16MB if as it >has 2 pairs of ram installed. This is one of few machines that must >be run with simms in pairs. I would love to get it to full capacity >of 24MB. > >I need to know the jumpers on that processor card as well, this might >be a reason for this memory issue. Also must this machine require >parity simms? Didn't try it with non-parity simms yet. The full capacity is actually 192MB apparently (it's also listed as 128MB), though I wouldn't recommend trying to accomplish that. This system uses the same RAM as some of my Alpha's, which means it rather expensive, unless you find it used. You need True-Parity 72-pin SIMM's for this system. I don't believe EDO will work. I know the Alpha's that use the same RAM are fairly picky. >And I'm looking for a pentium or alpha processor card for this >DECpc XL 466DX2 OK, I see such beasties are actually advertised as being eventually available. Interesting. You might be able to find a Pentium processor if you're very lucky, but I don't believe you'll be able to find a Alpha processor for it, and if you do I imagine you'll be very limited as to what you're able to run on it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 20:35:41 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: References: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <200006190540.BAA04817@smtp11.bellglobal.com> > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:06:11 -0700 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Re: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Since your only response so far was so rude, I decided to see what I could > come up with. All I ask was few feedbacks then back to on topic on classics. > > The system might not be old enough to be on topic, but it does look like a > nicely constructed piece of gear. Unfortuantly the only thing I was able > to dig up was a Systems and Options Catalogue, but it pointed me in the > right direction. That little no wonder, compaq is too intent on killing off decent Digital stuff off in favor of their compaq stuff that is looks like top #1 which is really wasn't. Touch one and Compaq machine crashes out. > The full capacity is actually 192MB apparently (it's also listed as 128MB), > though I wouldn't recommend trying to accomplish that. This system uses > the same RAM as some of my Alpha's, which means it rather expensive, unless > you find it used. You need True-Parity 72-pin SIMM's for this system. I > don't believe EDO will work. I know the Alpha's that use the same RAM are > fairly picky. Thanks that helps. No wonder this machine came to me with ram and it's cdrom and hd stripped. These simms I used are true parity type 12 chip type all 70ns, 1MBx36. I also have small stash of matched pairs of 18 chip 2MBx36 simms to try later. But this machine hold me little interest that I have found out it's limitions. I have peecee (pentium and PII) parts but no case or two to stuff in yet. > processor for it, and if you do I imagine you'll be very limited as to what > you're able to run on it. Thanks, this machine was real treat to look at besides the peecees I worked at part time job on but two negatives about this case. One: 3 ext and 1int bays in a real heavy tower. Two: and very few choices of FPM parity simms I have. PSU is very electric guzzler so I'm scared of running it for any length of time without running up too much bill. Later on, I will offer up the few items to barter with for classic machine to play with. What classic to not yet decided. Wink wink. :-) > Zane Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 21:21:15 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: compaq SLT PSU dead. In-Reply-To: References: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <20000619061929.UNUA18496.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Compaq SLT PSU dead. Power DC plug is DEATACHABLE from power brick, model number: 2687. Other SLT PSU bricks aren't deatachable. No signs of power and fuse not blown. Uses compaq's relabeled common UC3842 pinout PWM ic, yes I traced enough from the UC3842 datasheet. Single chopper tranny is MOSFET (BUK456-800A by philips). R512 and R500 are now ashes. I need the resistor values on these. What good subs for this MOSFET? And any gotchas? I have looked up on this specs on this transistor but I'm not so sure and *very* diffcult to buy that correct part so I need to sub this transistor out from bunch of choices that has 1-MOSFET PSUs with different types of 8pin UCxxxx PWM on it. Everything else are fine. Cheers. Trying to get SLT 286 going because other bunch of SLT 286 and SLT 386s/20 was given away with own working bricks. Those working bricks was not correct model like this kind I have in pieces and this is remaining SLT 286 I want to keep. Wizard From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 03:10:34 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) References: <20000608195359.2203.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <040801bfd9c5$d8644d60$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 5:23 AM Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) > > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Another good solution for the terminally challenged is > > *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only > > real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a > > terminal when nothing else is handy... > > I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local > box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with > Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no > flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the > Kermit-ly challenged, modern versions contain an IP stack; just add packet > driver; that's how my Commodore Colt is on my network). I was playing with a Toshiba T1200 XT laptop today. It has a PureData PDT8023 ethernet card that fits in an expansion slot, card is similar to a WD8003. Found some drivers on the Puredata website and have managed to get KA9Q NOS running on it. Telneted into the Vax at work from the shop via the ICS gateway on a 98SE box. Very cool. TRACE 111 gives you pretty much a packet sniffer too... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob at stmarks dot pp dot catholic dot edu dot au ICQ: 1970476 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 02:31:07 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. Message-ID: I've posted a review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc., to the VCF website. http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=003 It's a good book and I highly recommend it, especially if you're an Apple fan. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From guerney at bigpond.com Mon Jun 19 08:06:14 2000 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. References: Message-ID: <000d01bfd9ef$2a5b4960$dd8136cb@default> Sellam said in his VCF site review of this book: "You first realize this is not just another book about Apple when it begins with an Apple factoid that even I (a lifelong Apple fanatic) didn't even know about. It reveals that Apple actually had one other founder besides the two Steves, a man by the name of Ronald Wayne who got cold feet and bailed out shortly after Apple's official founding (he's the guy who designed the logo of Newton sitting under the Apple tree on the Apple-1 manual)." Poor Ron Wayne, who sold out his 10% of the company for $500, is missing from all the Apple company stories that I have read, but his involvement is described well in Fire in the Valley by Freiberger and Swaine on pages 265-267 of the updated version that came out this year. Phil (Brisbane, Australia) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, 19 June 2000 17:31 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. > > I've posted a review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple > Computer, Inc., to the VCF website. > > http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=003 > > It's a good book and I highly recommend it, especially if you're an Apple > fan. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 08:25:06 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2B@TEGNTSERVER> > ...and way too much time on their hands with few (if any) outlets for > their frustrations. > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Sure... Sign EXtension.... in x86-speak, it's cbw ; sign-extend byte to word or cwd ; sign-extend word to doubleword How does that help with frustration? ;-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 08:47:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2C@TEGNTSERVER> Cool... that way, you can make mistakes faster! Here's a pointer to a short story on a programmer whom I've never met, but whom I am certain is a soul brother... http://www.multicians.org/thvv/andre.html > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul R. Santa-Maria [mailto:paulrsm@ameritech.net] > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 5:22 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) > > > ---------- > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > > Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard > > Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM > > > > Since I compose > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), > > Because I can type much faster than I can write. > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Ann Arbor, Michigan USA > paulrsm@ameritech.net > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 08:50:03 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2D@TEGNTSERVER> > > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? > > Aargh! If we knew about that do you think we'd be living alone with > 20 old computers and nothing else? :-) > > Some times I think we're the male, technological version of the "Cat > Lady"....:-) I recently broke up with my girlfriend, and her possesion of seven cats in a tiny apartment was one of the reasons... ...now, realizing I've got _way_ more than seven computers makes me question my own sanity. oh well. -dq From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 19 09:03:25 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701bfd9f7$23736da0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > The worst name I ever saw attached to a computer was... A friend of mine has a piece of test equipment in his basement, apparently biomed, with nameplate writing: "Grass Stimulus Analyzer" Apparently the manufacturer's name was Grass or some such. Looked authentic. John A. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 09:04:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2E@TEGNTSERVER> > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > paper, and then to the system. I think the immediacy of interactive programming causes the programmer to tend to exit the design loop early, before the design has actually crystallized in the mind. Working with paper provides the slowdown needed to allow this crystallization to occur. And now that I think about it... ISTR a paper by someone at Purdue during the 60s, a paper exploring the value of interactive computing (timesharing), and it specifically referred to hypothetical systems so fast that the benefits of being able to immediately submit a design to test would be lost due to the programmer jumping out of the design loop too quickly. But, to each his own... as long as they're not working for me. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 09:07:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2F@TEGNTSERVER> > In the past I have tried to write code to paper and failed to do much with > it. Outlines are about as far as I can go. I did this because I wanted to > continue work or pass the time when I didn't have a machine in front of me > (in high-school or waiting in the Doctor's office). I guess it's what you become used to. Timesharing used to cost beaucoups bucks, so you worked offline as much as possible. That economic reality did engender a generation of higher-quality software than we've seen since, though... I blame a lot of the low-quality of current software on the program-by-the-seat-of- your-pants method. -dq From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 19 09:49:39 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper References: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> <14667.50019.854468.677900@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000619144447.60483.qmail@hotmail.com> Usually my code compiles the first time. It doesn't necessarily do what I want.... :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Programming on Paper > On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > > paper, and then to the system. > > Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) > > -Dave McGuire > From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 19 09:57:28 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:16:52 +0100 (BST)" References: Message-ID: <200006191457.HAA95058@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it > > > installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly > > HP were fond of suggesting that you do this :-(, even on machines where Yes, this was not my idea. I spent some time staring at the manual convincing myself that there were no directions for testing the power supply with a less expensive load. I suspect HP's thought was that they would probably have the service contract, and if the power supply was going to fail in a way that fried other stuff then it would have already fried the other stuff by the time the service call was placed, and the CE would have those boards in his kit too. > Incidentally, am I the only person who finds the faultfinding flowcharts > (like the ones that HP published in a lot of their service manuals) to be > fairly useless? You know the ones that say > 'Is there a clock at pin 3 of U5 > Yes : Is there a high level at .... > No : Replace U5, X1, C1, C2 in order.' It looks vaguely useful for people like me: a programmer with soldering iron type who appears to have a read-only mind w/r/t the more interesting bits of electronics. At least it would get me to a board that I could then try to trace out and ask questions about. That's why I pointed rdd through the first couple of bits -- they will tell whether the power supply is alive at all and whether the fundamental adjustment has any effect. Unfortunately I don't think I have schematics for 1000s or 21MXs. Well, not complete ones. Tonight I picked up the 21MX E-series Installation and Service Manual instead of the 1000 E-series one. Guess what, it's got appendices, including Appendix B with schematics for the operator panel, 16K memory module, 8K memory module, and 4K memory module. Not the power supply though. Hmm, on the other hand I'm not sure it would matter, it looks like the power supply is different in the 21MX -- instead of board with daughterboards, it's got an upper and a lower board. Guess the difference is deeper than the front panel silk-screening. -Frank McConnell From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 19 10:57:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) (Chris Kennedy) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > > its introduction. > > I suppose it depends on what you define as "changed very little". '71, '73, > '74, '76, '78, '82 and '85 all introduce significant chassis changes. > The liquid-cooled current production engine has only passing resemblance > to the air-cooled precursors and the transaxle has seen radical changes. > About the only thing that is really constant about the car is the shape, > the transmission-in-front-of-differential-in-front-of-engine-layout > and the organization of the engine as a boxer-six. Oh, and the location > of the ignition on the left-hand side of the wheel :-) > > Look hard enough and almost every bit has been radically revisited, which > coupled with the amazing ability to graft in stuff from the 930/34/35 and > even a few 928 bits, makes for *all sorts* of fun for those of us who get > geeky over 911s... :-) When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking lot, they're damn near identical. -Dave McGuire From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 19 11:27:52 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? -Bob >VCF 4.0 is tentatively scheduled for Saturday, September 30 - Sunday, >October 1. The venue this year in the San Jose Convention Center >in San Jose, California. > >More details to come! > >Sellam International Man of Intrigue >and Danger >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jun 19 12:00:51 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > lot, they're damn near identical. Without a doubt. That the stylistic lines are essentially the same as they were in 1966 is nothing short of amazing. I suppose some Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but I did say *car*... :-) -Christo -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 12:08:04 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE31@TEGNTSERVER> On June 17, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > > paper, and then to the system. > > Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists (Tom VanVleck, who might respond to being so identified as "Me? I'm just a programmer!"): : It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen : it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient : is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code : perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used Soviet space shuttle) was assigned to take over my work. In the month we worked together, we became friends, and so stayed in touch after I left. A couple or three years later, Dmitri and I were having lunch, and feeling a mood which had me wondering if I'd done the right thing in giving up programming, I asked him how much trouble he'd had with my code. "None." I probed deeper, knowing he was a good programmer and that he might have misinterpreted the thrust of the question. Right out, I asked him if he would character the severity and frequency of the bugs left in the extensive codebase I'd pushed. He stopped me, saying he'd understood me perfectly the first time, and said "No bugs in your code, Doug; you write best assembly language." If only I could have found an employer who felt that way! I was ultimately fired because the boss cared more about expeditiousness than about quality. That, and I think he tired of some of my behavioral quirks..... ;-) -doug q -doug q From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 19 12:10:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: Re: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) (Chris Kennedy) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <14670.21509.404832.455805@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 19, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > > lot, they're damn near identical. > > Without a doubt. That the stylistic lines are essentially the same > as they were in 1966 is nothing short of amazing. I suppose some > Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of > a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese > manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but > I did say *car*... :-) Yup...look at the Firebird or the Camaro. How many completly different body styles from the late 60's til now? Five? Six? And we don't even want to talk about what happened to the Chevelle and the Nova. The only similarities between the old & new of those models are in the names. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 11:08:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: <000d01bfd9ef$2a5b4960$dd8136cb@default> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Phil Guerney wrote: > Sellam said in his VCF site review of this book: > > "You first realize this is not just another book about Apple when it begins > with an Apple factoid that even I (a lifelong Apple fanatic) didn't even > know about. It reveals that Apple actually had one other founder besides the > two Steves, a man by the name of Ronald Wayne who got cold feet and bailed > out shortly after Apple's official founding (he's the guy who designed the > logo of Newton sitting under the Apple tree on the Apple-1 manual)." > > Poor Ron Wayne, who sold out his 10% of the company for $500, is missing > from all the Apple company stories that I have read, but his involvement is > described well in Fire in the Valley by Freiberger and Swaine on pages > 265-267 of the updated version that came out this year. There's no mention of him in the original edition. For his part, according to the book, he claims he doesn't regret the decision :) (considering the circumstances it quite plausible) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Mon Jun 19 12:12:48 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: The Mini (1958?-present) and the FX-4 (1959-1997) came immediately to mind. On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > > lot, they're damn near identical. > > Without a doubt. That the stylistic lines are essentially the same > as they were in 1966 is nothing short of amazing. I suppose some > Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of > a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese > manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but > I did say *car*... :-) > > -Christo > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 12:12:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE32@TEGNTSERVER> > > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > > Since I compose > > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), > > You do that too? I always got more code written in a shorter period > of time that way. When modifying code, paper is all the more useful, > particularly wide greenbar with the code to be modified or added to > printed out on it. My former employer had no printer with greenbar, > which really came as a shock to me, as every place else I'd ever > worked had at least one high-speed line printer. It's too annoying to > make changes to long programs on the screen; much easier to leaf > through pages of code and pencil in changes, draw lines here and > there, circle things, etc. than to go from screen to screen with an > editor, as that can become confusing with large programs. No wonder > modern code has become so bloated and full of bugs; the programmers > have less of an idea what they're working on. I'm bidding on a DECwriter III so that I can have something I can load greenbar into on the Prime; I also bought a wide-carriage Imagewriter for the same reason. That gives me a backup, I guess. Greenbar's going for about $30 per box these days. > Even stranger was the fact that most of the people I worked with, who > were programmers, had no idea what greenbar was, even when it was > described to them! Yeah, the phrase "line printer" will probably elicit as much of a furrowed brow from these newbies as would "unit record". > Hopefully line printers and wide dot-matrix printers aren't on their > way to becoming obsolete. Well, both printers alluded to above were found on E-Bay, so they must be rare.... :-) -dq From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 11:13:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? At one point I was seriously considering a VCF East this summer but time is too tight unfortunately, so it'll have to wait until next year (unless someone wants to travel to the east coast in the dead of winter...I know I don't :) If someone wants to help host a midwest edition then contact me and we'll discuss the possibilities. sellam@vintage.org Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 12:42:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) Message-ID: <20000619174217.25189.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > (Tom VanVleck... > > The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: > > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > Soviet space shuttle) I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. :-P -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 12:45:12 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: <20000619174512.878.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bob Brown wrote: > Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? > > -Bob Being in Ohio, I'd second that. I could even help host one, if it's close enough to travel to (the midwest being such a vague and nebulous space). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 19 12:45:21 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <394DF9C1.6025.283C0F5F@localhost> Hi Sellam, Re: > http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=003 good review...looks like an interesting book! BTW, some search engines won't search cgi-bin pages, so you might reconsider why you have a simple text page being delivered via CGI ... if you want it indexed. SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 19 12:46:07 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <394DF9EF.29734.283CC2B5@localhost> Re: my response to Sellam. Oops...that was supposed to be private. Sorry. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 13:02:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE33@TEGNTSERVER> > --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > > (Tom VanVleck... > > > > The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: > > > > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html > > > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > > Soviet space shuttle) > > I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never > heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew > once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the > Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. Now that you've said it, I do recall Dmitri called it the "Buran"; it was some other reference lost to memory that called it the "Snowflake"... I always ASS-U-MEd Buran == Snowflake... -dq From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 19 13:14:57 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE31@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <200006191814.LAA10395@civic.hal.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > (Tom VanVleck, who might respond to being so identified as "Me? > I'm just a programmer!"): > > : It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen > : it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient > : is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code > : perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. > Hi While it is possible to write bug-free code on paper, it is generally considered a waste of valuable time to no use feedback methods that include running the code on real machines. What is actually important is getting a bug free product in the shortest amount of time. It is better to have a method of incremental testing that can uncover bugs early than to have someone that spends weeks analyzing code by inspection on paper. Most people that program don't consider testing their code as they write ( I'm guilty as well ). The best and the fastest coding I've ever done included regular testing to make sure it was working correctly. I've found from my experience that the best code had about 50/50 write to test time and that if I wrote code for more than 2 hours without testing, the debugging time would increase. Following good programming rules helps to generate good code but doesn't guarantee it. I will break these rules cautiously when it is desirable towards that end result. It is vary important that one understand the potential problems this can later cause and include test code ( commented out ) that a later programmer can use to make sure it is functioning correctly. Rules like " Don't make self modifying code." are good general rules but entire languages are based on doing just that. Does it make the language bad? No, it is just that one must use careful and restricted use of things that can be more easily messed up. Incremental testing is still the key. Without it, even Ada is a bad programming language. IMHO Dwight From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 19 13:17:52 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: <394DF9EF.29734.283CC2B5@localhost> Message-ID: <200006191817.LAA10403@civic.hal.com> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > Re: my response to Sellam. > > Oops...that was supposed to be private. Sorry. > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler Hi Stan I'll keep it private. Dwight From g at kurico.com Mon Jun 19 13:42:18 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: <000d01bfd9ef$2a5b4960$dd8136cb@default> Message-ID: <394E233A.12887.965DE09@localhost> IIRC this fact is also mentioned in the "Mac Bathroom Reader". Another great book for Apple/Mac fans. George > On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Phil Guerney wrote: > > > Sellam said in his VCF site review of this book: > > > > "You first realize this is not just another book about Apple when it > > begins with an Apple factoid that even I (a lifelong Apple fanatic) > > didn't even know about. It reveals that Apple actually had one other > > founder besides the two Steves, a man by the name of Ronald Wayne > > who got cold feet and bailed out shortly after Apple's official > > founding (he's the guy who designed the logo of Newton sitting under > > the Apple tree on the Apple-1 manual)." > > > > Poor Ron Wayne, who sold out his 10% of the company for $500, is > > missing from all the Apple company stories that I have read, but his > > involvement is described well in Fire in the Valley by Freiberger > > and Swaine on pages 265-267 of the updated version that came out > > this year. > > There's no mention of him in the original edition. For his part, > according to the book, he claims he doesn't regret the decision :) > > (considering the circumstances it quite plausible) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Jun 19 13:50:28 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:00:51AM -0700 References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000619145028.A1358@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:00:51AM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: >I suppose some >Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of >a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese >manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but >I did say *car*... :-) I suppose the Fiat 500/Seat 600 doesn't qualify as a real car either... But the VW bug and bus both went a long time between major changes (the bus had a major body change in 1968 but most other things were small incremental tweaks), from their start right after WW2 until their mutual death in 1979. Around the time VW hit upon the notion of "our cars are luxury cars because we *say* they're luxury cars" and walked away from their market share (in the US at least). I love the fact that what's putting them back on the map is a soulless cartoon lookalike of their old junkers. Also, this may not have covered so many years, but the Chrysler Omni/Horizon econoboxes (known in junkyards as "Horomnis") had practically the same body throughout their entire 1978-1990 history. They changed the door handle mounts in 1979 and of course the car subscribed to the drivetrain-of-the-month club like most American cars, but generally you can mix and match doors, fenders, glass, bumpers, the hood and hatch, and a lot of the suspension and interior, from absolutely any year. For the last 5 years or so of production, Chrysler essentially froze the design, and also cut the price in half (and made some of the options standard to avoid having to futz with them) so that it rode out the rest of its product life with basically no engineering work. Even the Ford Fiesta got more parental attention! It's kind of funny that it was so static. You can tell a '69 and '70 Camaro apart from 100 yards away even if they're half-buried in snow, but with '78 and '90 Horizons, really the most obvious difference is just the amount of rust. John Wilson D Bit From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 19 13:46:12 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE33@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000501bfda1e$a4c8cb80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> FWIW: I remember it this way Buran = Blizzard. Buran was nearly identical to our shuttle. sorta a cheaper looking knock-off. Buran never flew. A smaller (probably unmanned) capsule was flown, and photographs released. This was a one man sized lifting body similiar to our ```Steve Austin''' type deals from the 60's. Snowflake = small Blizzard? I don't know. John A. P.S. found some fascinating links here: http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/mwade/craft/buran.htm http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/mwade/flights/buran5.htm From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 12:57:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: More Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I want one too!. I notice it didn't mention what CPU it used -- any > ideas? Initially I guessed at the Z80, but I am now wondering if it's an > 1802 or something odd... No menion in the ad. Maybe Allison knows. The kit was sold by Netronics, the same people who sold the ELF II and Exlporer 85 kits. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 13:06:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: <394E233A.12887.965DE09@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, George Currie wrote: > IIRC this fact is also mentioned in the "Mac Bathroom Reader". > Another great book for Apple/Mac fans. The _Mac Bathroom Reader_ was also written by Owen Linzmayer, the author of _Apple Confidential_. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 19 14:12:25 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) In-Reply-To: <000501bfda1e$a4c8cb80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at Jun 19, 2000 02:46:12 PM Message-ID: <200006191912.NAA01264@calico.litterbox.com> > FWIW: > I remember it this way > Buran = Blizzard. Yup. > Buran was nearly identical to our shuttle. > sorta a cheaper looking knock-off. They even admit to having bought a set of the shuttle plans when Nasa was selling them. > Buran never flew. > A smaller (probably unmanned) capsule was > flown, and photographs released. Bzzt. Buran flew once in an automated test flight. Unfortunately the Soviet economy collapsed before they could really make use of their shuttle. In some ways it's a better design than the US shuttle - especially its liquid fueled Energea booster instead of the more dangerous solid fueled boosters used on the US shuttle. Advantage? You can turn it OFF. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 13:13:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2E@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 19, 0 10:04:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3160 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/83624947/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 19 14:36:09 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) In-Reply-To: <20000619174217.25189.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <394E9249.4135.342ADB52@localhost> > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > > Soviet space shuttle) > I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never > heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew > once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the > Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. Buran can be translated as Snowflake - as always words tend to have different areas of usage/meaning in different languages - as the English have created tons of words for rain, the russians have some more versions of snow than other nations :) AFAIR there have been 3 orbiters build, but only one has ever been launched for an unmanned flight in the autum of '88. There have been several projects to use Buran during the '90s, but due money constrains none became realized. This flight is also often mixed up with the BOR flighs during development. The BOR units have been scaled models to test stuff like the ceramic tiles. Buran has been a bit shorter than the Shuttle, but the payload area was bigger and the maximum payload was 20% more mass than for the US shuttle. Also all pay load bay dimensions have been a bit bigger ... including an already build adapter to host pay load modules build acording to the US specifications. This was ment to gather some transport missions in a competitive situation (What would have been a great thing to boost space transportation, as competition among classic rocets proof). After all, Buran was in some aspects a more advanced version of the shuttle. The russians did study everything thy could about the US space plane. Lets just agree that the Buran is as independant as the Japaneese Kikka has been in '45 :) (And I don't want to put any doubt on japaneese development skills). In fact, I've read that one of the three orbiters is at the moment leased to NASA for some aerodynamic tests (the 'original' is displayed in a Moskwa Theme Park). And last but not least, Buran was AFAIK thename of the this particular unit. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 14:00:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:48 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006191457.HAA95058@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 19, 0 07:57:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4144 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/15953ac2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 14:03:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Jun 19, 0 10:00:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 543 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/0c7aa4b0/attachment.ksh From jdarren at ala.net Mon Jun 19 15:51:57 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: vintage computer books for sale Message-ID: <00d101bfda30$35e5c800$026464c0@j.peters> $10 each plus book rate shipping. DEC LA36/LA35 DECwriter II Maintenance Manual, 1977 DEC LA36/LA35 DECwriter II User's Manual, 1977 DEC PDP-11 BA11-K 10.5 Inch Mounting Box Technical Manual, 1978 DEC PDP-11 DL-11 Asynchronous Line Interface Manual, 1975 (reproduction) DEC PDP-11 DL11-W Serial Line Unit/Real-Time Clock Option Maintenance Manual, 1977 DEC PDP-11 DR11-C General Device Interface Manual, 1974 DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 (reproduction) DEC RK05/RK05J Disk Drive Preventive Maintenance Manual, 1976 DEC RK05/RK05J/RK05F Disk Driving Maintenance Manual, 1976 DEC RK05J Illustrated Parts Breakdown, 1977 (reproduction) DEC RK11-D and RK11-E Moving Head Disk Drive Controller Manual, 1975 (reproduction) PDP-11/45 16-Bit Computer Illustrated Parts Breakdown, 1974 (reproduction) Honeywell Series 200 214-1/214-2 Card Reader/Punch Theory of Operation Manual, 1968 Teletype Model 35 ASR Technical Manual, 1971 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 19 15:54:32 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: vintage computer books for sale In-Reply-To: <00d101bfda30$35e5c800$026464c0@j.peters> Message-ID: > DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 > (reproduction) RCS/RI might be interested in this manual - can you hold it while I ask the other board members? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ryan at inc.net Mon Jun 19 16:20:15 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Source for 88k systems? Message-ID: <394E8E8F.DA73E8DE@inc.net> I'm looking for a 88k based system, preferably a Moto MVME. Anyone have one they'd like to sell to an 88k nut? Thanks, Ryan Brooks ryan@inc.net From jdarren at ala.net Mon Jun 19 16:26:10 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: vintage computer books for sale Message-ID: <024a01bfda34$feb20f60$026464c0@j.peters> Certainly! It is now reserved in your name. Thanks for your interest. jdarren -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 4:16 PM Subject: Re: vintage computer books for sale >> DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 >> (reproduction) > >RCS/RI might be interested in this manual - can you hold it while I ask >the other board members? > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 16:27:19 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Boards Need Identification / Available for Trades Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE36@TEGNTSERVER> About twelve years ago, I was digging through a dumpster in the office park where I worked at the time, and found a quantity of what I only just recently identified to be PDP-11 UniBus boards. Now that I know I have no need for them, I think they'll be going. While I'd prefer to trade them, in case I have to sell them on E-Bay, I'd like to know what it is I'm selling. Each card has what appears to be a model number, and I list those numbers below. Two things I'd take in trade: A Prime coffee mug, or almost anything of a Pr1mary nature; A keyboard encoding ROM for a SOL-20 keyboard. Maybe you'll have something really nifty I'd like, so if you want to trade but don't have the above items, drop me a line, make me an offer! Here are the board numbers: M5904 quantity three G7273 quantity three M7296 quantity one M7297 quantity one M7556 quantity one M9047 quqntity one M9300 quantity one M9202 quantity one thanks in advance, doug quebbeman From mrdos at swbell.net Mon Jun 19 16:44:34 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Fw: HP-85 Computer Message-ID: <001301bfda37$902d2f40$c5743ed8@compaq> Can anyone help this guy out? -----Original Message----- From: David M. Curtis To: Owen Robertson Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Re: HP-85 Computer Hello Owen: Thanks for replying to my e-mail. I have an HP85, but no manuals. I am looking for the command for the computer to format a tape. I knew it 15 years ago. The tape drives in the 85s are notorious for going bad. The rubber tire on the tape drive had rotted away and this makes the tape run too slowly. I was going to format a new tape to see if that would help me to get it running. Thanks, David Curtis KC8TK ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: David M. Curtis Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 1:17 AM Subject: Re: HP-85 Computer It didn't come with the manual for the computer itself, but it came with the manuals for the following ROMS: Matrix Printer/Plotter Input/Output Mass Storage Advanced Programming I would be glad to photo copy any information that you need as soon as I get the computer. What information do you need? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/0411c818/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 19 17:57:17 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: References: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000619175717.45975ef0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:06 PM 6/12/00 -0400, Pat wrote: > >Another snag you might run into is the problem with funding agencies. >When I was at Carnegie-Mellon, I worked on a DoD-sponsored research >project. We never surplussed *anything*, and we never threw anything >away (at least, in the 2.5 years that I was there). The reason was, that >our funding agency (who had paid for all of our hardware) required that, >if we wanted to surplus something, we had to first go through a process to >put it on a list to offer it to other government agencies. Only after the >equipment had been on this list for several months, with no interest from >any other agencies, could we dispose of it. We were told at the time that >the estimated time from deciding to surplus something, until we were >actually permitted to do so (assuming that it was not snapped up by >another agency in the meantime), was at least 12 months. > I'd say that if they can surplus an item in only 12 months then they're doing extremely well. I see lots of surplus computers and test equipment and ALL of it has been in storage for at least 5 five years. Some of them have been in storage for over 10 years. For example, I just picked up two HP 9825s. Both of them have tags stating that they were removed from operation in 1995 and that they must be recalibrated or tested before being returned to service. Joe From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Jun 19 17:35:39 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: > I've met programmers who 'design' like that as well -- they > type in some code, then fiddle with loop limits, ands versus ors, > etc until the program gives the 'right answers' on the test values. Is it > any wonder some programs contain bugs.. When I first started in programming (1977), we had to create *complete* technical design documents before a single line of code was written. This included technical specs, data diagrams, flowcharts, screen shots, etc... About 6 weeks ago, I was evaluating a fairly complex software project and and asked the engineer to provide a flowchart of how the application worked. He stated that he didn't see the value of a flowchart and that it would slow down the development process. In his opinion, it was much easier to just read the code. I was tempted to kick his ass, but decided the best way to handle this was to prove the value of proper documentation. So, I waded through his code, found the most complex module, and created a comprehensive flowchart of just that module. Now the fun part... I got the engineer, his supervisor, our VP of technology, and another non-technical co-worker (whom had never seen the project) together for a quick quiz. I gave the flowchart to the non-technical person and started asking the group fundimental questions like; "how many parameters are passed to and from the module", "what happens if an out-of-bounds value is passed", "what is the exact sequence of events when..." blah, blah, blah. Almost instantly, the non-technical person was able to answer the questions while the two engineers waded through hundreds of lines of code. Within 30 minutes, I was able to totally embarrass the engineer *and* his supervisor in front of the VP. Shoulda kicked his ass anyway... ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/79b40d90/attachment.html From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 19 17:42:21 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: New stuff! Wahoo! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000619184221.009c8650@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Rollins may have mentioned these words: >Added about a dozen boxes of Macintosh software and some minor >hardware items to the collection, as well as a TRS-80 Model 100 with >some books and a few ROM modules. Seems to be working just fine, but >the bottom is covered in duct tape to keep some covers from falling >off. Even got a modem cable! [snip] >Anyone know of any good sites for TRS-80 stuff? Sure do! Hop over to http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html and say howdy to prolly the foremost person on the Model 100/102/200 scene, Rick Hanson. He's one heckuva nice guy, and keeps a lot of TRS-80 stuff in stock, not to mention most (if not all) of the proggies from his old BBS site on the web, available for download. (I'm not sure, but I *think* his BBS is still running, so you can actually still dial to it with your M100, if you like! ;-) He sells personally refurbished Model 100's & 102's, for a very good price & warrants them for 90 days. Check out http://www.the-dock.com/c100/recon.html if you want to see pictures of his refurbishing process - very helpful if you've ever had to split a Model 100. He also has a lot of help dox available as well... IIRC it's called "The Whole Enchalada" (sp?)... More info than you can shake a stick at... Tell him "Merch" sent you... Also, there's a mailing list devoted to the Model 100/102/200 machines (I have a 200 myself...) and to sign up, send an empty email here: m100-subscribe@list.30below.com and reply to the confirmation message. I run the list, so if you have any questions, please feel free to email me personally... Oh, BTW - There's over 160 subscribers to this list, so that shows that the Model 100 is still alive and kicking over 15 years later... :-) :-) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 19 18:10:10 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards Message-ID: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> I pulled a bunch of VAX boards out of an, I think, 8200 that was destined for the scap heap. How do ID these things? They are VAXBI and VAXBI-A, or whatever the CPU bus is. I've got a BUNCH (Around 15) I've ID'd one as a TK-50 Controller (It says it is) and an ethernet controller (DEBNT) Any help would be appreciated. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 19 18:26:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE31@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >On June 17, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: >> > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the >spot >> > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking >the >> > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code >> > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. >> > >> > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the >> > paper, and then to the system. >> >> Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) > >Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists >(Tom VanVleck, who might respond to being so identified as "Me? >I'm just a programmer!"): > >: It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen >: it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient >: is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code >: perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. The caveat is that all of the "perfect" coders I know, wrote in assembly language, which has very little ambiguity. I owe much of my coding skill to a single mid level class on plotting. Two stinking credits, and one of the hardest most time consuming classes I have ever taken, with a drop out rate close to 75%. The title was plotting, but it was all about writing optimized code in assembly language to be called by a fortran program running on a IBM 360 with output on some little flatbed plotter. Each of the half dozen projects reused code from the previous, and by the end we all had shoebox sized stacks of punched cards, and a VERY keen eye on what made good code. It was really many years later into my professional career that I learned to "spill some blood" and let the compiler find a few errors instead of spending so much time actually writing the initial code. From jdarren at ala.net Mon Jun 19 18:54:52 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <004a01bfda49$c36f9200$01186bce@darren> Sounds like you have a problem with anal retention. When I first started in programming (1977), we had to create *complete* technical design documents before a single line of code was written. This included technical specs, data diagrams, flowcharts, screen shots, etc... About 6 weeks ago, I was evaluating a fairly complex software project and and asked the engineer to provide a flowchart of how the application worked. He stated that he didn't see the value of a flowchart and that it would slow down the development process. In his opinion, it was much easier to just read the code. I was tempted to kick his ass, but decided the best way to handle this was to prove the value of proper documentation. So, I waded through his code, found the most complex module, and created a comprehensive flowchart of just that module. Now the fun part... I got the engineer, his supervisor, our VP of technology, and another non-technical co-worker (whom had never seen the project) together for a quick quiz. I gave the flowchart to the non-technical person and started asking the group fundimental questions like; "how many parameters are passed to and from the module", "what happens if an out-of-bounds value is passed", "what is the exact sequence of events when..." blah, blah, blah. Almost instantly, the non-technical person was able to answer the questions while the two engineers waded through hundreds of lines of code. Within 30 minutes, I was able to totally embarrass the engineer *and* his supervisor in front of the VP. Shoulda kicked his ass anyway... ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/02e3981a/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 18:47:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: from "Steve Robertson" at Jun 19, 0 06:35:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5245 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/c8ac792f/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jun 19 19:10:59 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper References: Message-ID: <394EB693.FC57A92@mainecoon.com> Mike Ford wrote: > It was really many years later into my professional career that I learned > to "spill some blood" and let the compiler find a few errors instead of > spending so much time actually writing the initial code. It's certainly the case that as a consequence of all the time I spent writing code in assembly lanaguage (and all those damn code generation and optimization courses!) that I always find myself thinking in terms of what kind of code I expect the compiler to generate as a consequence of the way I structure my code. On the other hand, there are some things that the compiler is simply better at than I am; a good example of this is instruction scheduling, particularly on superscalar machines. I'd rather the compiler figure out how to keep the pipes full and avoid slips rather than spend my time doing so (and probably screwing it up). On a related topic, I too miss greenbar. Lots of room to scribble out new code and my scrawled representations of the data structures, all bound together in one place. I still do this on the stuff that spews out of laser printers, but there's not nearly enough real estate and I always end up with extra bits of paper that I am almost certain to lose at some point or another. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 19 18:46:26 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Source for 88k systems? In-Reply-To: <394E8E8F.DA73E8DE@inc.net> Message-ID: >I'm looking for a 88k based system, preferably a Moto MVME. Anyone >have one they'd like to sell to an 88k nut? Can you describe what you want in a bit more detail? Many of us find a LOT of stuff, but don't always know what we found. From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon Jun 19 19:38:12 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper References: Message-ID: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> Now that brings back some memories! 1969-72 at Franklin Pierce College writing assembly and Fortran IV stuff for a 360/60 that we timeshared with a bunch of other schools. I/O was a Teletype machine with a cardpunch and reader hooked up to it. The good old days??? I don't think so! You've never know true Hell until you drop a huge deck of cards you've worked on for a week. Craig > > > >: It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen > >: it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient > >: is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code > >: perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. > > The caveat is that all of the "perfect" coders I know, wrote in assembly > language, which has very little ambiguity. I owe much of my coding skill to > a single mid level class on plotting. Two stinking credits, and one of the > hardest most time consuming classes I have ever taken, with a drop out rate > close to 75%. The title was plotting, but it was all about writing > optimized code in assembly language to be called by a fortran program > running on a IBM 360 with output on some little flatbed plotter. Each of > the half dozen projects reused code from the previous, and by the end we > all had shoebox sized stacks of punched cards, and a VERY keen eye on what > made good code. > > It was really many years later into my professional career that I learned > to "spill some blood" and let the compiler find a few errors instead of > spending so much time actually writing the initial code. From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon Jun 19 19:43:41 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <394EBE3D.5E7D0AC0@roanoke.infi.net> Try the DEC/VAX field guide to cards at: http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/field-gu.txt or the visual field guide at: http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/index.html Craig Jason McBrien wrote: > > I pulled a bunch of VAX boards out of an, I think, 8200 that was destined > for the scap heap. How do ID these things? They are VAXBI and VAXBI-A, or > whatever the CPU bus is. I've got a BUNCH (Around 15) I've ID'd one as a > TK-50 Controller (It says it is) and an ethernet controller (DEBNT) Any help > would be appreciated. From allain at panix.com Mon Jun 19 19:50:21 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? References: <000a01bfda01$292e35e0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <000901bfda51$856295e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Can somene kindly tell me how to lock/unlock the heads on a CDC model > PA5N1F15 9" hard drive? Well, mine's a PA5G1M-20 (8.5x10x30", 9" platters) and it has its own auto-solenoid, which is easy to see. Just look on the platter case for a silverish round thing about 1.5". You should see it has a two wire connector and can be unscrewed from the mounting plate w/ a twist. > BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this > the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? I belieeeeve that FSD's are just small SMD's. They seemed to have the same cabling as I recall. I couldn't find info on the PA5G1M anywhere so I found another number on the unit, "97150-340 FSD-340" and that seeked to a Seagate (guess they bought out CDC SMD's), here: http://www.mm.mtu.edu/drives/seagate/smd/st6344j.txt Here it says this FSD is a SMD. Perhaps your drive is there... first get the other model number. And we wonder why we subscribe to this list. John A From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 20:09:09 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <006f01bfda54$2449fd40$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 8:40 AM Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards > I pulled a bunch of VAX boards out of an, I think, 8200 that was destined > for the scap heap. How do ID these things? They are VAXBI and VAXBI-A, or > whatever the CPU bus is. I've got a BUNCH (Around 15) I've ID'd one as a > TK-50 Controller (It says it is) and an ethernet controller (DEBNT) Any help > would be appreciated. Post a list of the card id codes. I have a list of most of the BI adapters here SOMEWHERE. (By the time you post 'em, I should have found it ;^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 20:12:03 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> <394EBE3D.5E7D0AC0@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <008301bfda54$8b93f1e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:13 AM Subject: Re: ID'ing VAX Boards > Try the DEC/VAX field guide to cards at: > http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/field-gu.txt > or the visual field guide at: > http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/index.html I've seen that one, ISTR it only has Unibus and QBus stuff listed? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 19 20:23:20 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards In-Reply-To: <006f01bfda54$2449fd40$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Jun 20, 2000 10:39:09 AM Message-ID: <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> > Post a list of the card id codes. I have a list of most of the BI > adapters here SOMEWHERE. > (By the time you post 'em, I should have found it ;^) > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts Any chance of your posting the list? I'd like to get them added to the Non-Unibus/Q-Bus DEC board list. Zane From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Jun 19 20:45:50 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <000901bfda51$856295e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Jun 19, 2000 08:50:21 pm" Message-ID: <200006200145.VAA00485@bg-tc-ppp251.monmouth.com> > > BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this > > the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? It's SMD... > > I belieeeeve that FSD's are just small SMD's. They seemed > to have the same cabling as I recall. Yup... > I couldn't find info on the PA5G1M anywhere so I found another > number on the unit, "97150-340 FSD-340" and that seeked > to a Seagate (guess they bought out CDC SMD's), here: > http://www.mm.mtu.edu/drives/seagate/smd/st6344j.txt > Here it says this FSD is a SMD. Perhaps your drive is there... > first get the other model number. Seagate purchased the CDC disk drive unit (Magnetic Peripherals Inc,) back around 5-8 years ago I think... (the are same folks who did -- I think -- all the MPI floppies as well as the 9766, Wren etc. I'm installing two Wren 9gb SCSI's right now.) > > And we wonder why we subscribe to this list. Nostalgia. > > John A > > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cube1 at home.com Mon Jun 19 21:22:17 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, with or without a reply based on how busy I am and how I feel that day. 8-) Requests for further information may not be responded to quickly. I have obtained, due to Y2k related activities and general cleanup, a VERY LIMITED number of copies of original software distribution tapes for the Apollo Domain/OS operating system and some product support kits. (I also have some other software, but due to licensing, I am not comfortable making that available. However, if you have NFS, Omniback, CC or DPCE software for Apollo Domain/OS and are having problems reading your tape(s), if you scan in a copy of your label and send it to me, we can see if we can arrange something). I am making them available at no cost, except that the REQUESTER PAYS THE PACKAGING AND SHIPPING COSTS (usually just a pound or two). The prepayment will be based on the estimate from the UPS web site. If you send me too much, I will send the difference by other means after I ship, if it is more than $2.00 -- otherwise I will not bother). I am making them available to people who (priority order) (USE THIS CODE BELOW) PRIORITY CODE: 1. Has an HP/Apollo Domain machine (proof required, including node-id, preference would be a picture), but does not have tapes (you are on the honor system for that part) 2. Is writing a simulator and needs software (some proof required, such as design documentation, compiler headers, ...) (Having been in that boat myself, I have empathy for anyone in that situation. But, I'd be surprised to find anyone in this situation for an Apollo Domain/OS machine). 3. An education institution (this would really surprise me, but you never know) 4. Has an HP/Apollo Domain machine (proof required -- see above), has tapes, but would like a backup set.2 Shipping code (see below) PICKUP: If you can pick the tapes up. Gets you 1 notch higher priority. SHIP: If you need to have them shipped to you. (You pre-pay shipping). Available only to folks in the US and places UPS will ship to with no headache for me (again, these are free, after all). Again, the requester must PREPAY SHIPPING based on an estimate from the UPS web site. The tapes are little used, and in their original plastic boxes with their original labels. The tapes date from around 1990 - 1992. ( I read thru a set of tapes like these to do a software install last year without a problem, but I can make NO GUARANTEE that the tapes are readable. (after all, they are free). Requests for tapes should be sent via email. PLEASE READ *ALL* of the following information to the end of this message CAREFULLY. Request MUST include the following filled out (please cut and paste into your message) Request MUST include "DOMAIN/OS TAPE REQUEST" in the subject of the e-mail, and should be addressed to: c u b e 1 (at) h o m e (dot) c o m ************************ NAME: Your Name ADDRESS: Your Street Address / City / State / Zip / Country routing code EMAIL: Your e-mail address SET: The Tape set number(s) you would like. (See Below) Format: # PRIORITY: Your priority code (see above) (#1, #2, #3 or #4) SHIPPING: (See above: PICKUP or SHIP) NODE-ID: Your Apollo Domain Node ID (see above) (Attach GIF/JPEG if possible) ************************* Requests should be submitted before 7/5/2000. I need to allow some time for priorities to be properly registered. I will ship when I am good and ready, probably in July or August. (After all, these are free -- but I do want to get them out of my hair). Generally YOU MAY ONLY REQUEST 1 SET. Exception: If you request one of set 10, 11 or 12 you may also pick one of set 13,14 and/or one of set 15,16 Note: If you have a 68040 based machine, SR10.2 is useless. You need SR10.3, including PSK8 (see below) SET INFORMATION *** READ CAREFULLY *** (Specify above) SETS #1, #2 and #3 Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.2 Boot tape: 017286-001 3 software tapes: 017277-001, -002 and -003 (This is a complete operating system) SET #4 As with sets #1, #2 and #3 PLUS DOMAIN/OS SR10.2 INCRA_2 018777-001 (patch tape) (THIS IS JUST A SINGLE TAPE - NOT A COMPLETE OPERATING SYSTEM) SETS #5, #6, #7, #8, #9 Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.4 Boot Tape: 019593-001 Software tapes: 019594-001, -002, -003, -004 (This is a complete operating system) SETS #10, #11, #12 Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.3 Boot Tape: 018847-001 Software tapes: 018848-001, -002, -003, -004 (This is a complete operating system) SETS #13, #14 Product Support Kit Q3-91 for Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.3 THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE OPERATING SYSTEM. YOU WOULD ALSO NEED SET #10, #11 or #12 Boot Tape: 019439-001 Software tapes: 019437-001, -002 SETS #15, #16 Product Support Kit PSK8 THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE OPERATING SYSTEM. YOU WOULD ALSO NEED SET #10, #11 or #12 Boot Tape: 019376-001 PSK8 Software: 019374-001 PSK8 68040 Software: 019362-001 Again, PLEASE read thru ALL of this message BEFORE submitting your request. Hope some of you find this useful. Jay Jaeger The Computer Collection. Visit: http://members.home.com/thecomputercollection From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 22:12:41 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Re: ID'ing VAX Boards > > Post a list of the card id codes. I have a list of most of the BI > > adapters here SOMEWHERE. > > (By the time you post 'em, I should have found it ;^) > Any chance of your posting the list? I'd like to get them added to the > Non-Unibus/Q-Bus DEC board list. As soon as I find it, I will do that. It's on the server somewhere..:^) Cheers Geoff From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 19 23:50:48 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Another thing that annoys me (sort-of related to the above) is the > common, and IMHO silly job interview question 'Do you know C?' (or some > other programming language). > > If I wanted a programmer, I'd much rather have somebody who didn't know > the particular language I was going to use, but who did understand things > like data structures, recursion, stacks, pointers, analysis of > algorithms, stability of algorithms, etc. Because I know that sort of > person could learn just about any language in under a week given the > standards documents. Whereas the person who'd been on a C course (and > thus 'knows C') may well be able to write trivial programs in that > language, but will probably not be able to write large programs well (if > at all). > > Still, what do I know? I'm not, and never have been, a programmer. > > -tony I'd suggest that a person who understands CS basics, as you outline, is better than one who hacks away "until something works". But there are some programming languages (C++ leaps to mind) that do take quite a while to master the nuances. ---- >From what I see in the programming field, more and more programmers are needed that use high level languages (VB, Perl, Python, JavaScript, Java, etc.) than traditional languages like C and Fortran. We do not need efficiencies that C or Fortran give us, in most cases. -Mike From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 19 23:52:20 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall a rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, something about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not include cursor keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate solely with the mouse. Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) Thanks for any help, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From g at kurico.com Tue Jun 20 00:18:40 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> References: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <394EB860.24274.BAC7941@localhost> The pre-adb keyboarded Macs did not include cursor keys (128 -> Plus). > Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall > a rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, > something about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not > include cursor keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate > solely with the mouse. > > Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer > Talk" and I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) > > Thanks for any help, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 00:29:29 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <01c401bfda78$82b390c0$c6701fd1@default> Well the week back from vacation has been pretty good I hit 3 auction and came away with a few good deals. 1. HP 6300 series 650/A 2. HP 9000/300 3. HP 9144 4. HP 6000/670H - 4 of them mounted in a nice rack. 5. TI99 color monitor the size of a TV and looks just like an old 19" model. 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? 7. 2 - Toshiba T5200/100's that both work great. 8. Zenith SuperSport 286 with carrying case, will not boot up. 9. Grid GridCase3 not working 10. An old Informer in a nice case. Not tested yet. 11. Compaq portable III in carrying case, not tested yet. 12. digital LA50-RA printer. 13. digital VT240 model VS240-B 14. Tandy 4000 PC There were several van loads of items that are not yet 10 years old but I added them to my collection from the first two auctions. At a City/school auction today I won the bid on over 80 computers, ext floppy drives (Apple all types), ext. hard drives for Mac's, many keyboards, monitors, and many other computer items all for $1. Sorry to say I had to leave a large amount of this stuff, there were all types of early Mac's and PC's. My poor van was overloaded with computers this evening and I got home at 9:30pm in the dark so I was not able to unload too much tonight and will have take off work for half a day to unload my Van and go back for more of the items. I hope to have a more complete list by the weekend and will post the older items. John Keys From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 01:07:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Craig Smith wrote: > Now that brings back some memories! 1969-72 at Franklin Pierce College > writing assembly and Fortran IV stuff for a 360/60 that we timeshared > with a bunch of other schools. I/O was a Teletype machine with a > cardpunch and reader hooked up to it. The good old days??? I don't think > so! You've never know true Hell until you drop a huge deck of cards > you've worked on for a week. Craig Didn't you learn the trick of drawing a diagonal line across the deck from front to back and left to right? It's not perfect, but you get most of the cards very close to their original positions the first time. You _were_ using a printing punch, right? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 02:22:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> (message from Craig Smith on Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:38:12 -0400) References: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <20000620072230.32280.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Now that brings back some memories! 1969-72 at Franklin Pierce College > writing assembly and Fortran IV stuff for a 360/60 that we timeshared 360/65, perhaps? The 360/60 and 360/62 never shipped. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 02:24:15 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <200006200145.VAA00485@bg-tc-ppp251.monmouth.com> (message from Bill Pechter on Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:45:50 -0400 (EDT)) References: <200006200145.VAA00485@bg-tc-ppp251.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000620072415.32304.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Seagate purchased the CDC disk drive unit (Magnetic Peripherals Inc,) CDC spun off their drive division as Imprimis, and Seagate bought it. If MPI was involved, it must have been well before Segate got involved. From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Jun 20 02:24:28 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > --- Craig Smith wrote: > > cardpunch and reader hooked up to it. The good old days??? I don't think > > so! You've never know true Hell until you drop a huge deck of cards > > you've worked on for a week. Craig > > Didn't you learn the trick of drawing a diagonal line across the deck from > front to back and left to right? It's not perfect, but you get most of the > cards very close to their original positions the first time. You _were_ > using a printing punch, right? > > -ethan Well, the RIGHT way to do this was to punch Sequence Numbers in the last 8 columns. You usually incremented by 10 or sometimes 100, or even 1000, so you could insert new code. You'd keypunch your program, and then stuff your program into the punch, and run a small program that would punch sequence numbers into the last 8 columns. After a while of doing program changes, you'd read your deck in with a program that punched out a re-sequenced deck. Then to the "interpreter" keypunch machine that printed on the new cards. If you dropped the numbered deck, you just picked up your cards and headed for the sorting machine (and don't forget to start at column 80 and work on each pass, column at a time, down to column 73...). -Mike p.s. Sometimes you'd use different colored cards for program corrections; after a while, you'd have a visible pattern of program fixes over time. You could, at a glance, see where you were changing code the most. I wish modern editors allowed this sort of "view" onto code. CVS isn't enough, it works at too large granularity. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Jun 20 06:00:32 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <394EB860.24274.BAC7941@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:18:40 -0500 George Currie wrote: > The pre-adb keyboarded Macs did not include cursor keys (128 -> > Plus). The Mac Plus on my desk right now has cursor keys. I've heard that the 128k Mac (the very first model) had neither cursor keys nor the numeric keypad. I have an Apple /// at home which has special keys for cursor movement. They auto-repeat quite slowly when held down, but if you press a bit harder, the auto-repeat speeds up. Rather a nice idea, I thought. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 05:50:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: >Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before >responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, Could someone translate this into English? Do I need it or want this? I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 05:15:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: new list for Apple II In-Reply-To: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> References: Message-ID: The low end mac site just started a new list for Apple II users (all flavors). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Apple2list info at To get single messages, send email to To get digests, send email to To be removed from the list, send email to - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 20 06:57:52 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000620075752.0121d5b0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Hi Mike; You probably don't need it. These tapes would be useful for the machines made by Apollo before it was bought by HP, at least for the non-68040 based. These had model names such as DN3000, DN3500 and DN4000, and ran Apollo's version of Unix, called Domain OS. Pretty decent. The machines you have were made by HP after it acquired Apollo; the first ones to bear the HP/Apollo name were the 68030/40 series 400 machines, which ran HPUX. For the 400t you might want to look into netBSD, as the last version of HPUX that runs in 68K-based machines is 9.1 (I think) and is not y2k compliant. The series 700 machines have PA RISC cpus and should run HPUX 10.20 . carlos. At 03:50 AM 6/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before >>responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, > >Could someone translate this into English? > >Do I need it or want this? > >I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free >update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 20 07:54:08 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <20000620072415.32304.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jun 20, 2000 07:24:15 am" Message-ID: <200006201254.IAA00535@bg-tc-ppp337.monmouth.com> > > Seagate purchased the CDC disk drive unit (Magnetic Peripherals Inc,) > > CDC spun off their drive division as Imprimis, and Seagate bought it. > If MPI was involved, it must have been well before Segate got involved. > > Actually Imprimis was MPI and the disk group from CDC as you say. The tape group and laser disk folks were Laser Magnetics and they were around through the early CD days... I think they ended up or were a joint venture of CDC with Phillips. Anyone know? I beliebe MPI(CDC)->IMPRIMIS->SEAGATE is correct... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 20 09:15:57 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:07:17PM -0700 References: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620101557.A3170@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:07:17PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Didn't you learn the trick of drawing a diagonal line across the deck from >front to back and left to right? Cute! The same trick is used on harpsichord keyboards (pre-installation), in case it falls off the table and the key levers go everywhere. They aren't exactly mass-produced, it's only sure to have a smooth action if you leave the keys in the order they were fitted. John Wilson D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 09:51:45 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs Message-ID: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> I have a variety of Apple II machines (I used to make my living on them long, long ago) and my little brother, an avid thrifter, found a IIgs for me this week. ISTR there are multiple varieties; this one appears to be fairly old. It has a memory card inside with 256K of RAM soldered down, and spaces for another .75Mb. The ROM is version 1.0. Just playing around, I figured out how to get into the config menu and set background colors, 80 column, etc. I happened to have an external 5.25" Laser drive I got with my $15 IIc+ and was able to boot up the only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image if that's what it takes. Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector that the newer computers take? Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 20 09:58:22 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> References: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000620095631.018bdd20@pc> At 12:52 AM 6/20/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and >I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) I was thinking about offering myself to the local radio station to do a (perhaps monthly) call-in show like that. Care to post a short summary of your experience with it? I thought it might be fun, might drum up more consulting work, and might drag a few classic computers out of people's closets. - John From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Jun 20 10:32:27 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <001801bfdacc$bd9056c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 11:36 PM Subject: New Finds >Well the week back from vacation has been pretty good I hit 3 auction >and came away with a few good deals. >5. TI99 color monitor the size of a TV and looks just like an old 19" >model. John, do you mean a 9" monitor? AFAIK the only monitor produced by TI for the 99/4(A) was a neat little silver composite monitor, with a vertical dimension of 9" or 10". I believe they were bundled with the original 99/4 for the bargain price of $1,200 or thereabouts. They were later available separately, but still way too expensive. I'd be interested in more details (especially the TI part number, usually PHP ####) if it is a TI badged 19" for the 99/4(A). Regards, Mark From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 11:00:25 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000620095631.018bdd20@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 12:52 AM 6/20/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and > >I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) Just ask them qustions about real comptuers, like, tell them that you just got a PDP-11/44 that's not working, that you've tested the PSU, describe the switch settings on the boards and what lights are lit and what the console displays and what you've discovered using a logic probe, oscilloscope and VOM and then proceed to ask questions about using your logic analyzer to debug the problem further. You know what would really be fun? If a dozen or so of us all kept calling one of those PeeCeeLuzeDoze shows and kept asking them questions like this. Ok, first, we'd have to get past the call screening, but, we could tell the call screener that it's about some LuzeDoze system related problem, then get on the air and ask a question about a real computer system. That's it, we should launch a Usenet campaign to swamp the radio PeeCee shows with questions about VAXen, IBM mainframes, Tandems running Guardian and also ask about UNIX - stay away from asking Linux questions as that's becomming common and they may know about that - hit 'em with Version 7 related questions, along with AIX, System III, PNX, DGUX, etc. questions. Just think, calls from all over the world flooding one of these radio shows with interesting questions. A few more ideas: Call in a question about a hard disk problem, then hit 'em with a question about your RK05 or Funitsu Eagle while you've got the schematics in front of you. Let's not forget the simple questions too, like telling them there's a problem with the fan in your PeeCee, and then ask their opinion on a proper repair; I'm sure they'll tell you to replace the power supply. At that point, tell them that you don't want to replace the entire PSU and that you've removed the fan, and what you really want to know is what type of lubricant they recommend for it after you give them the model number. > I was thinking about offering myself to the local radio station > to do a (perhaps monthly) call-in show like that. Care to post > a short summary of your experience with it? I thought it might A few years ago, I had a telephone call from someone one up in Delaware (or was it Rhode Island? - it was one of those place up north) who wanted me to host a radio talk show about computers. The catch was that I'd have to put some money up front for this until sponsors began picking up the tab, and I wasn't sure how legitimate this was. Is that how it usually works? > be fun, might drum up more consulting work, and might drag a few > classic computers out of people's closets. Or, drive up the prices for our toys. :-( -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From red at bears.org Tue Jun 20 11:42:57 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall a > rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, something > about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not include cursor > keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate solely with the mouse. It is true. The keyboard which shipped with the Mac 128k did not have cursor keys, and I'm fairly certain that there wasn't an option for same until the Plus (when it may have become standard issue). ok r. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 20 11:55:36 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? Message-ID: <20000620165536.79131.qmail@hotmail.com> AFAIK, MPI was a joint venture between Honeywell and CDC, but I could be wrong... Also, FSD = Fixed Storage Disk, aka Winchester.. those drives are very nice units... as are the later Sabre's that are half the size of the FSDs.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Jun 20 12:10:25 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... Message-ID: <007c01bfdada$6d6dc7a0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: r. 'bear' stricklin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... > >It is true. The keyboard which shipped with the Mac 128k did not have >cursor keys, and I'm fairly certain that there wasn't an option for same >until the Plus (when it may have become standard issue). > >ok >r. > Was this another "Steveism", like the lack of a fan, and the sealed, appliance-style case? I admire Jobs' vision (even if I don't necessarily agree with it), but his reality distortion field has produced some notably un-user-friendly decisions. Mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 12:58:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:49 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620175810.5396.qmail@brouhaha.com> > and was able to boot up the > only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. Minor nitpick: Zork I doesn't use DOS of any version. It was originally shipped on a bootable 13-sector diskette, and later on 16-sector, which is what you have. The earliest Zork I release was buggy as all heck. Once I managed to have in my inventory about 20-30 "rooms". In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd certainly love to get a copy. The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 13:00:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620180046.5419.qmail@brouhaha.com> I forgot to answer the other question: > So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and > no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? > I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image > if that's what it takes. Apple never supported DOS on 3.5". There were some third-party hacks, but I've never obtained copies. From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 20 13:06:39 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <20000620165536.79131.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000901bfdae2$48cea6f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > Will J said: > those drives are very nice units... I have some of the 340 MB's available to interested parties, also an Eagle. . . (A deafening silence is heard) John A. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 20 13:12:37 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Radio shows? References: Message-ID: <20000620180746.9606.qmail@hotmail.com> "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I doing wrong? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Radio shows? > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > > At 12:52 AM 6/20/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and > > >I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) > > Just ask them qustions about real comptuers, like, tell them that you > just got a PDP-11/44 that's not working, that you've tested the PSU, > describe the switch settings on the boards and what lights are lit and > what the console displays and what you've discovered using a logic probe, > oscilloscope and VOM and then proceed to ask questions about using your > logic analyzer to debug the problem further. > > You know what would really be fun? If a dozen or so of us all kept > calling one of those PeeCeeLuzeDoze shows and kept asking them > questions like this. Ok, first, we'd have to get past the call > screening, but, we could tell the call screener that it's about some > LuzeDoze system related problem, then get on the air and ask a > question about a real computer system. That's it, we should launch a > Usenet campaign to swamp the radio PeeCee shows with questions about > VAXen, IBM mainframes, Tandems running Guardian and also ask about > UNIX - stay away from asking Linux questions as that's becomming > common and they may know about that - hit 'em with Version 7 related > questions, along with AIX, System III, PNX, DGUX, etc. questions. > Just think, calls from all over the world flooding one of these > radio shows with interesting questions. > > A few more ideas: Call in a question about a hard disk problem, then > hit 'em with a question about your RK05 or Funitsu Eagle while you've > got the schematics in front of you. Let's not forget the simple > questions too, like telling them there's a problem with the fan in > your PeeCee, and then ask their opinion on a proper repair; I'm sure > they'll tell you to replace the power supply. At that point, tell > them that you don't want to replace the entire PSU and that you've > removed the fan, and what you really want to know is what type of > lubricant they recommend for it after you give them the model number. > > > I was thinking about offering myself to the local radio station > > to do a (perhaps monthly) call-in show like that. Care to post > > a short summary of your experience with it? I thought it might > > A few years ago, I had a telephone call from someone one up in > Delaware (or was it Rhode Island? - it was one of those place up > north) who wanted me to host a radio talk show about computers. The > catch was that I'd have to put some money up front for this until > sponsors began picking up the tab, and I wasn't sure how legitimate > this was. Is that how it usually works? > > > be fun, might drum up more consulting work, and might drag a few > > classic computers out of people's closets. > > Or, drive up the prices for our toys. :-( > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Jun 20 13:29:48 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Composing on paper, Green-bar, hardcopy output, card decks (L ong) Message-ID: >From the Jargon file greenbar: n. A style of fanfolded continuous-feed paper with alternating green and white bars on it, especially used in old-style line printers. This slang almost certainly dates way back to mainframe days. This makes me feel ancient. The green bars were 1 inch wide which was 6 lines normal or 8 lines compressed. About 1979 I remember when I wrote a talk for a microbiology conference on my VT52 terminal. I then printed it out on greenbar which was used to prompt me during the talk. The greenbar proceeded to unfold down the front of the podium all the way to the floor. My boss was kind enough to indicate that the talk was really written by the computer. One problem with greenbar was that you had to turn it over if you wanted to print pictures or banners on the paper. Very long fiber paper, some of the cheap stuff was kind of like newspaper greenbar. I still have several cases of it, the fancy kind with printed line numbers. The nice thing about composing on paper was that once you wrote the same or similar thing several times by hand you decided to create a subroutine/procedure. Paper could be taken to the pool or outside, no electricity required. Composing on terminals was only practical when there were terminals available. Doesn't anyone remember coding sheets? If you are punching cards on an IBM 026 keypunch then any errors and the card was trash. The IBM 029 keypunch didn't actually punch the card until the end of the line, you could correct errors if you noticed them. Trash cards were useful for phone messages and notes. All of the JCL cards were usually a different color to allow the card decks to be split apart. I seem to remember pictures being drawn on the decks to allow the user to peer through the computer room window to see if your deck was due to be run soon. The best card run I ever saw was a 1976 run where the entire music list for the MU radio station was read in and then sorted by music type, performer, and title and then printouts produced. This happened on a Sunday when CPU time was free on the IBM 370 model 158 due to system testing. 12 boxes of data cards were read in and then stored on 9-track tape. Best input output/setup was in 1970 at CMU where the cards were read in and then output printed down a long series of sloped tables, each user got <10 minute response, they had a traffic light set up in the IO room. RED = system down, GREEN = system up, YELLOW = use at your own risk. They had a camera and speaker watching the printer to tell the users to change the paper on the printer. Worst setup was MU Computer Sciences where you turned in the cards and got back output in 24 hours. Many times with message CPU time exceeded and no output. Mike Coder from the dark ages From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jun 20 14:58:00 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs Message-ID: <200006201858.NAA36066@opal.tseinc.com> In a message dated Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:03:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ethan Dicks writes: << I have a variety of Apple II machines (I used to make my living on them long, long ago) and my little brother, an avid thrifter, found a IIgs for me this week. ISTR there are multiple varieties; this one appears to be fairly old. It has a memory card inside with 256K of RAM soldered down, and spaces for another .75Mb. The ROM is version 1.0. Just playing around, I figured out how to get into the config menu and set background colors, 80 column, etc. I happened to have an external 5.25" Laser drive I got with my $15 IIc+ and was able to boot up the only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image if that's what it takes. Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector that the newer computers take? >> sounds like you have the original model GS with 256k. later ones such as mine have ROM 03 and 1 meg. My GS also had a memory expansion card that I filled up to the max by using an XT's memory dip chips so most likely you can do the same. Nibble magazine used to have a program called dos plus which gave you two 400k dos 3.3 volumes on a 800k floppy. you can expand that GS like you would any //e or + except you dont need an 80 column card of course. the disk ][ drives you speak of can be used with a standard //e controller card if you like, or the apple // newsgroup members should be able to provide a pinout to cable those 20pin connectors to the unidisk port on the back of the computer. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 20 14:08:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Composing on paper, Green-bar, hardcopy output, card decks (L ong) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000620120036.00bd3140@208.226.86.10> >I seem to remember pictures being drawn on the decks to >allow the user to peer through the computer room window to see if your deck >was due to be run soon. Very common trick at UNLV as well where I "borrowed" the CDC machine to do a summer job for the Clark County Classroom Teachers Association. >Worst setup was MU Computer Sciences where you turned >in the cards and got back output in 24 hours. Many times with message CPU >time exceeded and no output. At UNLV there was a sign at the deck submission window that said, "turn around time is 2 hrs." However on weekends there wasn't very many jobs being run so turn around was like 2 minutes (deck to printed output) but one old witch of an operator insisted on holding your printout for an hour or so before giving it to you. (Being the nice young teenage male that I was I would point out to her that my printout was sitting in the printer out basket. :-) Then she came up with a "scam." When I asked for my printout she would say, "It hasn't run yet, the queue is full." Which might have dissuaded me except that I could log into an interactive terminal and figure out that this wasn't true. So I wrote a deck that resubmitted itself with a random job name through the virtual reader. After running it the Queue really was full! With about 1000 jobs! She got a freaked trying to kill jobs in the queue that were obvious gook, but of course anytime on ran it would immediately fill up the queue again. Finally she shut down the entire RJE station (the actual computer was in Reno I think) and deleted everything by hand (of course some of the jobs "looked" real because their randomly generated names were credible, restart the RJE station and Whomp! full queue again. Finally, she just shut it down, deleted everything, and restarted it. I got my printouts from then on without any additional commentary. --Chuck From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 14:35:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: <20000620180746.9606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of > Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. > MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I > doing wrong? I've got the answer! :-) Here's what you're doing wrong: You're using MS-Windows. :-) :-) :-) Seriously, good example! Expect answers like: "Firstly, I think you meant to say VMS - that stood for very much storage, heheh, although it's not much storage these days (snort), not MVS, and no one uses VMS any more, so upgade to NT on a newer maching your problem should go away," "I used to have one of those 9-track players in my car - never heard of anyone using one with a computer; you need to upgrade it." [yes, I know the difference between an 8 track audio player and a 9-track magtape drive, but I'll bet they won't]. Also, expect to be asked if you've configured Luzedoze correctly on your 370. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 14:40:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <000901bfdae2$48cea6f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Will J said: > > those drives are very nice units... > > I have some of the 340 MB's available to interested > parties, also an Eagle. . . > > (A deafening silence is heard) A deafening silence? I'd think everyone else would also be shouting "I want one! And, wow, an Eagle, I want one!" The roar of the crowd should be deafening! :-) After all, who wouldn't want a Fujitsu Eagle? ...are you any where near Baltimore? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:07:38 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000620075752.0121d5b0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> References: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: >Hi Mike; > >You probably don't need it. These tapes would be useful for >the machines made by Apollo before it was bought by HP, at least >for the non-68040 based. These had model names such as DN3000, >DN3500 and DN4000, and ran Apollo's version of Unix, called >Domain OS. Pretty decent. The machines you have were made by HP >after it acquired Apollo; the first ones to bear the HP/Apollo name >were the 68030/40 series 400 machines, which ran HPUX. For the >400t you might want to look into netBSD, as the last version of >HPUX that runs in 68K-based machines is 9.1 (I think) and is not >y2k compliant. The series 700 machines have PA RISC cpus and >should run HPUX 10.20 . > >carlos. > >At 03:50 AM 6/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before >>>responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, >> >>Could someone translate this into English? >> >>Do I need it or want this? >> >>I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free >>update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. Thanks, that was what I was wanting to know. Cheers, Mike Ford From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:29:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a >couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); >does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector >that the newer computers take? The I/O controller boards sell for $5 or less on eBay, and expansion is limited only by your budget. ;) Come to think of it, I have both the new controller cards AND the adapter cables for the old drives (I think). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:46:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Composing on paper, Green-bar, hardcopy output, card decks (L ong) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >paper on the printer. Worst setup was MU Computer Sciences where you turned >in the cards and got back output in 24 hours. Many times with message CPU >time exceeded and no output. Just set your job to run as class X. I forget the details, but our lazy sysops used to set the "accumulators" to class X to clear jobs out of the system or some sysop type reason. A few people found out, and when you ran class X, boom you had 60% of the machine to yourself, no billing or time limits. OTOH writing ASM when the code barfed, a low time limit was a GOOD idea. I remember one job just about killed a whole class account for the semester. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 12:51:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 19, 0 09:50:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/66f3aa0f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 12:54:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <394EB860.24274.BAC7941@localhost> from "George Currie" at Jun 20, 0 00:18:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/39f0b2f1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 12:58:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <01c401bfda78$82b390c0$c6701fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Jun 20, 0 00:29:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/dd78350c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 13:50:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 20, 0 03:50:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 411 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/9418ac68/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 13:59:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 12:00:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/dfa12406/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 14:51:03 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) Message-ID: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > I forgot to answer the other question: > > > So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and > > no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? > > I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image > > if that's what it takes. > > Apple never supported DOS on 3.5". There were some third-party hacks, but > I've never obtained copies. So how did the Apple IIc+ work? It has an internal 3.5" floppy. Did you have to have an external 5.25" drive to play old games, etc? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 14:55:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) Message-ID: <20000620195502.8742.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > > and was able to boot up the > > only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. > > Minor nitpick: Zork I doesn't use DOS of any version. It was originally > shipped on a bootable 13-sector diskette, and later on 16-sector, which > is what you have. True. Mea Culpa. I should have said, "the only Apple II bootable disk I have is..." > The earliest Zork I release was buggy as all heck. Once I managed to have > in my inventory about 20-30 "rooms". On an early version of Zork I for the C-64, I managed to "give me to the thief". Later on, in the strange passage, I saw "a cretin" sitting in the hallway. > In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games > for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. > If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd > certainly love to get a copy. I remember seeing "Planetfall" up on the wall of the Digital Store in downtown Columbus when I was a kid. I knew who Digital was, but I didn't get my first Dec machine until I was 16 (a PDP-8/L that took two years to restore owing to a lack of docs). > The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. I agree. They aren't much different from each other, architecturally. I've completely disassembled the C-64 version 1 engine, partially commented it and gotten it running on VICE with a VIC-20 and a BASIC 3.0 PET! If I ever had _way_ too much free time, I could probably craft a working engine for RT-11. I used to program that for a living, too, in a former life. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Jun 20 14:50:51 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Yep, the Mac classic I have doesn't have any cursor keys or arrow keys or anything of the sort. The Apple ][+ has left/right arrow keys, but no up/down arrows. I can send a scan of my keyboard iffen you like... clint On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall a > rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, something > about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not include cursor > keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate solely with the mouse. > > Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and > I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) > > Thanks for any help, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 20 15:04:08 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001bfdaf2$b24ffab0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > ...are you any where near Baltimore? Well, I almost promised someone I'd drive to Washington to get a uV3100. "What, Three Thousand Miles???" Ohhhh, you meant Washington state (Me silently: Duh). I'm in Lower NY State, driving distance to/from D.C. for good causes. John A. From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 20 15:10:48 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Did you see... Message-ID: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, just on this list? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 15:12:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Coding forms and 'traffic lights' (was : Re : Composing on paper) In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at Jun 20, 0 01:29:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/1962cd30/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 15:15:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 03:40:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/5f0b6816/attachment.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Jun 20 15:36:29 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Got some DecMate 1s! Message-ID: <394F8F7D.32127.127F4D7@localhost> WooHoo! I received two DecMate I systems today along with a Dec LetterPrinter 100 and an RX02 Dual Drive unit. I have some doc and software to go with them. Have to sort through it all. Problem is I promised my wife I'd go with her to the ball game tonight. Dang, now I can't check it all out until tomorrow evening. Oh well, at least this way she won't complain about having them around the house... not much anyway. Now the quest to get them up and running begins. Oh and thanks for getting the systems to me John, if you're still on the list. They arrived nicely packed and safe and sound. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 20 15:37:31 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > Bill Sudbrink asks: > How many {ADM-3A's} are out there, just on this list? One here. ADM-5, I think. Similiar looking. No eBay. (This was found, hanging above the floor, face down only by its cord, pushed off behind a table next to a networking wireharness, One small island of HW in a building being gutted just last year. The ADM had been forgotten but was still running happily. A workhorse.) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:57:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: References: <20000620180746.9606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: >> "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of >> Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. >> MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I >> doing wrong? > >I've got the answer! :-) Here's what you're doing wrong: You're using >MS-Windows. :-) :-) :-) > >Seriously, good example! Expect answers like: "Firstly, I think you What could be good is a rigged show, questions would be planned ahead for maximum "funny" impact, with answers like, well funny things. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 14:51:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > You know what would really be fun? If a dozen or so of us all kept > calling one of those PeeCeeLuzeDoze shows and kept asking them > questions like this. Ok, first, we'd have to get past the call > screening, but, we could tell the call screener that it's about some > LuzeDoze system related problem, then get on the air and ask a > question about a real computer system. That's it, we should launch a <...> No thanks, I'll pass. Some of us actually have better things to do with our time. > 410-744-4900 Hey, a phone number! Maybe we should call that and ask whoever answers a bunch of PC questions. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 20 15:57:21 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: Did you see... (Bill Sudbrink) References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 20, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? Cool! > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? I've got an ADM-5. What a neat little terminal! I like it a lot. I think I want to get an iMac and set them side-by-side. :) -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620211808.7345.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Apple never supported DOS on 3.5". There were some third-party hacks, but > I've never obtained copies. Ethan wrote: > So how did the Apple IIc+ work? It has an internal 3.5" floppy. Did you > have to have an external 5.25" drive to play old games, etc? Yes. Especially since the games on 5.25" disks usually had some form of copy protection anyhow. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 16:20:27 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620195502.8742.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:55:02 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620195502.8742.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620212027.7363.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. Ethan wrote: > I agree. They aren't much different from each other, architecturally. I've > completely disassembled the C-64 version 1 engine, partially commented it > and gotten it running on VICE with a VIC-20 and a BASIC 3.0 PET! If I ever > had _way_ too much free time, I did the same thing with the Apple ][ version of the interpreter back in 1981. I got it running under ProDOS and Apex, using the OS to access the virtual image rather than raw disk I/O. We should trade "source" code. :-) From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 15:24:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So how did the Apple IIc+ work? It has an internal 3.5" floppy. Did you > have to have an external 5.25" drive to play old games, etc? Yes. And for anything else you used ProDOS which can natively support 3.5" disks. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 15:27:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? > > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? If you're wondering if they're rare, the answer is no, they are not. They're about as rare as Altairs, which by the way used to show up on eBay at least once a week. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 20 16:30:51 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:10:48PM -0400 References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000620163051.G4176@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:10:48PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? I've got an ADM-5. Obtained under "its been sitting in the junk room (actually an abandoned old dormitory first floor) for about 10 years now, my head is turned the other way and I dont know where you got it" pretenses from the college I attended. Thing's indestructible. I actually saw a couple of them still in use at one of WorldCom's POP/colo facilities in Dallas when I had to go down there for an ISP I worked for a couple of years ago.. Sadly, I lost one of my VT320s to a power outage/surge the other night; it wont send/receive anymore. I'm down to one 320 and one 420; anybody got a green-screen vt320 they'll let go cheaply? VAXES MUST HAVE GREEN MONO CONSOLES.... and my pristine VT102 w/manual isnt going to be plugged in until I get GOOD FILTERED PROTECTED power. 8-) Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From djg at drs-esg.com Tue Jun 20 16:38:38 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 Message-ID: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> From: Eric Smith >In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games >for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. >If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd >certainly love to get a copy. > Amazon.com has witness for pdp-11 (64k) for only $69.95. I had remembered running across this a while ago but though it was Zork. Either they found a different one or (more likely) my memory is bad. Hardcover Disk edition (April 1984) Looks like it's their 828,139th best seller... David Gesswein From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 20 16:43:00 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701bfdb00$814d1a20$350810ac@chipware.com> > If you're wondering if they're rare, the answer is no, they are not. > They're about as rare as Altairs, which by the way used to show up on > eBay at least once a week. I would think that they are significantly more common than Altairs. You wouldn't normally find 20 Altairs in a bank. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 20 15:59:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: More Stuff Message-ID: <01e501bfdafa$87b330d0$7d64c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 3:06 PM Subject: Re: More Stuff >On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I want one too!. I notice it didn't mention what CPU it used -- any >> ideas? Initially I guessed at the Z80, but I am now wondering if it's an >> 1802 or something odd... > >No menion in the ad. Maybe Allison knows. The kit was sold by Netronics, >the same people who sold the ELF II and Exlporer 85 kits. Netronics what? they only did the Explorer (8085) and the Elf (1802) anthing else were supporting boards for one or the other. Allison > >Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Tue Jun 20 16:53:41 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Free stuff! Message-ID: <32574044@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Hey -- Been housecleaning recently. I have several machines and some parts available to anyone who can come pick them up -- I'm living in Jacksonville, FL for the summer. Apple IIc and power adapter (works) Zenith 286 laptop (works) Apple IIGS (powers up, but I seem to remember it having some weird intermittent error message) Magnavox monochrome Computer Monitor 80 (works, small and lightweight, good for a testing bench?) Mac Plus with power supply problem, rest of it works 2 internal SCSI hard drives (230 and 260 MB), both worked last I checked 800k internal Mac floppy drive (dunno if it works) 400k external Mac floppy drive (dunno if it works) ImageWriter II (works, good cosmetic condition) Dead Apple Newton 100 with some accessories, manuals, etc. -- I think I fried something when attempting to resolder the loose audio wire Mac SE/30 (works, but if you take this, you are required to take the rest, too. ;-) And OT: some other electronic thingies, like a dead Sony Bookman and a Sega "simon says" game, if your tastes are that eclectic. Please email off-list for details, directions, etc. Thanks, -- MB From aknight at mindspring.com Tue Jun 20 17:02:29 2000 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.co m> References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000620180229.0086a8d0@pop.mindspring.com> Hi, I have one ADM-3A that is available for sale or trade. I don't have a price in mind but am certainly not looking for "eBay" amounts - I'd actually prefer a trade for some interesting old nixie-tube or HP calculator stuff or certain computer stuff that's on my "want" list (see my web page). The one I have is an off-white color, not light blue as some of them are. Please contact me ASAP if you're interested. Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm - "want" list is at http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/wanted.htm At 04:37 PM 6/20/00 -0400, you wrote: >> Bill Sudbrink asks: >> How many {ADM-3A's} are out there, just on this list? From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Jun 20 17:03:31 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? References: <000901bfdae2$48cea6f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <394FEA32.B4262E14@arrl.net> Speaking of SMD's, weve got some relatives of the PA5xxx, the PA3A1/PA3A2 which use the removable 80 Mb packs.We have been looking for the alignment pack for these; anyone know of a source or, dare I ask, have one of these lying around ? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nick Oliviero : Houston, Texas Project Engineer : nolivi@coair.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - John Allain wrote: > > Will J said: > > those drives are very nice units... > > I have some of the 340 MB's available to interested > parties, also an Eagle. . . > > (A deafening silence is heard) > > John A. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 16:04:16 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Did you see... Message-ID: Bill Sudbrink said: > > If you're wondering if they're rare, the answer is no, they are not. > > They're about as rare as Altairs, which by the way used to show up on > > eBay at least once a week. > > I would think that they are significantly more common than Altairs. > You wouldn't normally find 20 Altairs in a bank. My point was that they are not very rare at all and the person who paid $355 for one was, well, let's not get into that :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 20 17:10:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> from "David Gesswein" at Jun 20, 2000 05:38:38 PM Message-ID: <200006202210.PAA19623@shell1.aracnet.com> > Amazon.com has witness for pdp-11 (64k) for only $69.95. I had > remembered running across this a while ago but though it was Zork. Either > they found a different one or (more likely) my memory is bad. > > Hardcover Disk edition (April 1984) > > Looks like it's their 828,139th best seller... > > David Gesswein > They list several of them, BUT that doesn't mean they can actually come up with a copy. I forget the wording, but it amounts to they know such a beasty has existed, and will try and find out if any of their sources have a copy (highly unlikely). Zane From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 20 13:13:38 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Marion.Bates@dartmouth.edu In-Reply-To: <32574044@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <200006202218.SAA12963@smtp11.bellglobal.com> > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:53:41 -0400 (EDT) > From: Marion.Bates@dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) > Subject: Free stuff! > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > And OT: some other electronic thingies, like a dead Sony Bookman and a Sega "simon says" game, if your tastes are that eclectic. About the newton messagepad 100, what it acts like when something fried? What else in electronic thingies? Jason From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 20 17:25:11 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... Message-ID: <20000620222511.48597.qmail@hotmail.com> >The Mac Plus on my desk right now has cursor keys. I've >heard that the 128k Mac (the very first model) had >neither cursor keys nor >the numeric keypad. > >I have an Apple /// at home which has special keys for >cursor movement. They auto-repeat quite slowly when held >down, but if you press a bit harder, the auto-repeat >speeds up. Rather a >nice idea, I thought. > >-- >John Honniball >Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk >University of the West of England John is right. The keyboards on the Mac 128 & 512 have no arrow keys. I even have a "proper" keyboard (made by datadesk) that has arrow keys, but they don't work. So I suppose that the ROM has no support for the keys. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From red at bears.org Tue Jun 20 17:34:47 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <007c01bfdada$6d6dc7a0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > Was this another "Steveism", like the lack of a fan, and the sealed, > appliance-style case? I believe it was. I've read accounts which state that some of the engineers on the project really pushed for arrow keys but that Steve felt that having more than one way to move the cursor about would be confusing for 'the rest of us'. This may be apocryphal. ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 17:51:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> (message from David Gesswein on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:38:38 -0400) References: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> Message-ID: <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com> David Gesswein wrote: > Amazon.com has witness for pdp-11 (64k) for only $69.95. I had > remembered running across this a while ago but though it was Zork. Either > they found a different one or (more likely) my memory is bad. Tried buying that from then in 1997, along with the other Infocom games they listed. They aren't in stock, and they are unable to get them from the publisher. What a surprise. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 20 19:36:03 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:57:21PM -0400 References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000620203603.A4162@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:57:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've got an ADM-5. What a neat little terminal! I like it a lot. > > I think I want to get an iMac and set them side-by-side. :) A friend of mine was talking about that when the iMac was first released -- why the heck would Apple want to resurrect the "blue pig" form factor!!! Anyway, add my ADM3A to the tally. Geez, I don't even remember where I got it... And I forget why "the dumb terminal" was supposed to sound *good*. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 20 19:49:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:51:22PM -0000 References: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000620204905.B4162@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:51:22PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Tried buying that from then in 1997, along with the other Infocom games >they listed. They aren't in stock, and they are unable to get them from >the publisher. What a surprise. Who is the publisher these days, is it still Activision, or has it changed hands again? I have the PDP-11 version of Sorcerer (bought by mail order directly from Infocom in the mid 80s) but I'm not brave enough to violate the copyright on something which is still a shipping, for-profit product, on some platform anyway. So I want to find out who's in charge and beg them for a permission letter... Eons ago I went and asked (in person, when Infocom still existed) for permission to do an IBM 370 IML interpreter based on my disassembly of the PDP-11 one, but they laughed at me. But I would hope the attitude is different now, especially because a freely distributed IML interpreter would generate at least a handful of Lost Treasures sales. Anyway I disassembled and commented it too (guess that's a rite of passage!), in case anyone cares here are the important patchable locations in the IML interpreter that comes with Sorcerer (there are several different flavors of IML and this is just one, other versions may have had different patch locations): 1000 term type: 0=unknown (no status bar) 1=VT100 2=VT52 1002 page width (0 => prompt) 1004 page height (0 => no **MORE** processing) 1006 TSX single-char mode flag (GS 'S'), I don't know what that means but it's in the setup program 1032 randomness flag (0 => random, NZ => not random), must be for debugging or something 1034 program name in .RAD50 (two words) The 1034 one is the important one, you can either patch in the name of the IML file, or clear the field out in which case it will prompt. That way you can use the same interpreter to run a bunch of different IML files. If anyone has a friend at Activision (or whoever it is now) *please* hook me up, I'd really like to get permission to release this. John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 19:55:17 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006172251.PAA29587@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 17 Jun 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it > installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly Well, I've made the initial tests... seems that the problem may be before the regulators and after the fuse. Since I didn't have a 21W, 6V, lightbulb - I called around to many auto parts stores and couldn't find one. The few that did have 6V bulbs apparently couldn't be bothered to open their parts manuals and look for one with a 21W rating... of course, had I walked in and asked them to check the books, they probably would have. Anyway, I used one of my other dummy loads - this one came out of the drivebay of a VAXstation-2000 - filled with power resistors, which I'm guessing is about the equivalent load of somewhere between a hard drive and an RX50. Hooking up the VOM, I got a reading of about 3.5mV for the 5V supply and between that and zero for everything else. So, it's not completely dead, but, close to it. And, yes, the fan is spinning. > (A6) that is visible when you remove the top cover, and the main Haven't checked that yet. > adjustment is the +5V ADJ potentiometer that is visible on the power Does adjusting that make a difference with any of the other voltages? > Supply voltages are: > > supply v max cur upper lim lower lim test point > +5V I/O 50A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5V > +5V M 4.5A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5M > +12V I/O 2.5A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12V > +12V M 2.0A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12 M > -2V I/O 4.0A -2.2Vdc -1.8Vdc A6 -2V > -12V I/O 2.0A -12.6Vdc -11.4Vdc n/a > -12V M 250mA -16Vdc -9Vdc A6 -12M > (unregulated) > +30V I/O 250mA 42Vdc 22Vdc A6 J2 pin 4 > (unregulated) What's the difference between M and I/O in the supply v. column? > The general thing to do at initial checkout is to adjust the +5V ADJ > pot 'til the first of these is at +5.15 +/-0.05 volts, then check the > other voltages to make sure they're within range. Something tells me to leave this pot alone at this point. As I don't have a set of schematics, can anyone tell me what to check next? Meanwhile, I guess I'll go poking around and see what voltages I can find in various spots. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 20:00:39 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:50 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20000620204905.B4162@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:49:05 -0400) References: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000620204905.B4162@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000621010039.9329.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > But I would hope the attitude is > different now, especially because a freely distributed IML interpreter > would generate at least a handful of Lost Treasures sales. _Lost Treasures_ is no more, alas. They repackaged most of the games into a single box called something like _Classics of Infocom_ or the like, but it's out of print. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Jun 20 20:19:54 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Did you see... References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <005001bfdb1e$ceeb6b60$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 5:40 AM Subject: Did you see... > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? P.T. Barnum was right. > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? I have a couple. One's dead, the other still works IIRC. 240v versions of course. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 20 20:34:56 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <20000620203603.A4162@dbit.dbit.com> References: <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000620213456.00abc250@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Wilson may have mentioned these words: >Anyway, add my ADM3A to the tally. Geez, I don't even remember where I >got it... And I forget why "the dumb terminal" was supposed to sound *good*. IIRC, I have two ADM31's in my garage (saved 'em both for $5.00 USD) but I haven't had a chance to check them out... but I can tell you that they are an actual computer inside... Moto 6800 processor, Moto 6845 character generator w/EPROM for a char. rom (which might be fun to hack) and dunno how much memory's in there, but it could be fun to turn it into an actual computer... I have no manuals for them... anywhere on the 'net where I might get specs & stuff? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jun 20 20:44:05 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <200006201858.NAA36066@opal.tseinc.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Jun 20, 2000 02:58:00 pm" Message-ID: <200006210144.SAA19537@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and > no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? > I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image > if that's what it takes. You can get ProDOS and GS/OS (usually just called System, ala Mac) on 3.5" floppy. I'd pick up a 5.25" drive from somewhere for DOS 3.3 stuff. Flea markets and surplus stores seem to have plenty of them lately. I don't know what the latest System that will run on ROM 01 is. You can also look into GNO/ME, which was a pseudo-unix clone that runs under GS/OS. Last I heard it was made freeware, but it might be hard to find. > Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a > couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); > does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector > that the newer computers take? Other than additional floppy drives and maxing out the memory, I'd recommend a SCSI card and a smallish external hard drive. The SCSI cards can usually read CDROMs with the right System and drivers. Might be useful to those of us that archive things to CDROM. Single session/small disk only, though. The cards are somewhat hard to find used with drivers, but as of a couple years ago you could get new ones, if you were willing to part with the dough. I believe there are now IDE cards available for the // series as well, but that's a fairly new thing. The GS is generally compatible with all cards that a //e can use. You can build quite a system in short order. My system is a ROM 03, 4MB, 256 MB HD System 6, 2x3.5",2x5.25". Networks via AppleTalk. Has a PC Transporter and 5.25" 360K Transdrive, which I mostly use for file transfer from PCs, but it can also run MS-DOS. I also occasionally pop in a CP/M card. (Kick me, I like machines with multiple processors.) The hard drive is overkill, but it was the smallest one I had on hand when I got the SCSI card. Some day I'll replace it with something more contemporary to the rest of the system. Eric From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 20:47:59 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Yo References: Message-ID: <017601bfdb22$bbfdb2c0$2f731fd1@default> As stated long ago and as printed in the newspaper article done on me, my goal is to open a museum sometime in the very near future. I'm trying to get corporate funding and grants to get it off the ground. Right now I have stuff stored everywhere, such as 1800 sq ft warehouse in Houston (full), a 10x15 storage unit in Houston, two bedrooms in a house in Houston, 4- 10x15 and 1-10x20 storage units here in St. Paul, a one car garage full here, one bedroom full here in the apartment, and 5- 3x4x16 storage units in my complex here. I have over 3000 hardware items, over 1500 books, tons of old test equipment, and several hundred other types of items such cups, mousepads, mice, giveaways from trade shows (such as the items you send me each year from the VCF), I have computer art work (paint and photo), computer puzzles, computer toys, robots, and the list goes on. My wife says if I die before the museum is built than this all goes to the trashman. I started this back in 1985 and my dream of a museum started back 1992. But rising a family and working everyday was tops on my list at the time and now the kids are all grown and can go after my dream. I have gotten help from many on this list and hope that I can be of help to some of the new members. Well that enough history for today. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer Festival To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 12:42 AM Subject: Yo > > John, let me ask you: what the hell are you going to do with all the crap > you are collecting? I mean, I collect a lot of stuff, but you seem to be > taking in about 4 times what I have in total every few months. > > How much stuff do you have, where do you keep it all, and what are you > going to eventually do with it? > > More curious than anything... > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 21:11:14 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: New Finds References: <001801bfdacc$bd9056c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <020501bfdb25$fb25e1e0$2f731fd1@default> No this unit was made by Zenith for TI and others (Health) with TI99/4 Color Monitor in big letters on the front. The model number on it is DC13-FF-4 and it's a big unit just like a regular TV in size but no tuner. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gregory To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:32 AM Subject: Re: New Finds > > -----Original Message----- > From: John R. Keys Jr. > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 11:36 PM > Subject: New Finds > > > >Well the week back from vacation has been pretty good I hit 3 auction > >and came away with a few good deals. > > > >5. TI99 color monitor the size of a TV and looks just like an old 19" > >model. > > > John, do you mean a 9" monitor? AFAIK the only monitor produced by TI for > the 99/4(A) was a neat little silver composite monitor, with a vertical > dimension of 9" or 10". I believe they were bundled with the original 99/4 > for the bargain price of $1,200 or thereabouts. They were later available > separately, but still way too expensive. > I'd be interested in more details (especially the TI part number, usually > PHP ####) if it is a TI badged 19" for the 99/4(A). > > Regards, > Mark > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 21:33:52 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: New Finds References: Message-ID: <025701bfdb29$24773f00$2f731fd1@default> AM2901APC/7829DP; AM2909PC/7811DP; AM2907PC/7828DM Those are the bigger chips on the board. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: Re: New Finds > > 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer > > with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit > > Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? > > The AM2900 series are bit-slice chips for making your own processors :-). > The main ones are either 4 bit ALU/registers (2901 and 2903) that you can > cascade up to the word size you want and microcode sequencer chips (2909, > 2911, 2910). > > There were various evaluation boards. Typically they gave you an ALU of > perhaps 8 or 16 bits, a sequencer, and a RAM based control store that you > loarded your own microcode into. > > You'll need a copy of the AMD bipolar processor databook (or 2900 > databook) to do much with this board. And a copy of 'Mick & Brick' (a > book entitled 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design') would be useful as well. > > Post the numbers on the larger chips (or anything that's not plain 74xx > TTL) on your board and we'll see if we can work out what you have. > > > -tony > > From ss at allegro.com Tue Jun 20 21:32:15 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <017601bfdb22$bbfdb2c0$2f731fd1@default> Message-ID: <394FC6BF.63.5AA244E@localhost> Re: ... > I have over 3000 hardware items, over 1500 books, ... > My wife says if I die before the museum is built than this all goes to the > trashman. That underscores something I posted on last year: MAKE A WILL! Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the disposition of their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on eBay", maybe it's "offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to Stanford"...or ? Even if you don't decide now, your will will name an executor...he/she should be made aware of the value of the collection. All too often, I hear about people dying and some computer (or more!) being thrown away. For collectors who live alone, they should make sure *somebody* is aware that their collection isn't trash! Even if you know no one, and have no friends, no relatives, post a note somewhere in your house/apartment ... it'll be your final way of giving back to the hobby. (Yes, I have one...produced for free, using Classic software (an obsolete version of some will program from Nolo Press)) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 21:59:42 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden Message-ID: Something's been puzzling me: when I look at my CDC SMD drive, the NCR applications processor, some smaller SMD drives, LEDs in my 11/44, etc., there's something I just don't understand. Why did companies begin hiding blinking lights, status displays, etc. behind covers, in places behind the front panel that aren't obvious at first glance, hidden in boards in a card cage, etc.? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 20 22:55:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 2000 10:59:42 PM Message-ID: <200006210355.UAA00440@shell1.aracnet.com> > Something's been puzzling me: when I look at my CDC SMD drive, the NCR > applications processor, some smaller SMD drives, LEDs in my 11/44, > etc., there's something I just don't understand. Why did companies > begin hiding blinking lights, status displays, etc. behind covers, in > places behind the front panel that aren't obvious at first glance, > hidden in boards in a card cage, etc.? Well, I know the only time I need to see the LED's on my /44 or /73 is when I'm working the hardware, at which point I've got the card cages opened up. It would have taken serious work, to get those LED's to show up somewhere other than on the card itself, and doing that work would place restrictions on the chassis. Besides who is to say I want controller 'X' with it's particular LED scheme? Maybe I want controller 'Y' which has a totally different set of LED's, or maybe none at all. A better question might be, why not. It makes sense from both a design standpoint, and a cost standpoint. Note: All these comments are relative to PDP-11's and VAXen, I'm not familiar with SMD drives or NCR applications processors. Zane From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 23:10:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tonight, I did some more checking into the following system: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Greetings, is anyone here familiar with an NCR model 3401, class 5451 > "application processor"? On a hand-written label on the front of the > machine there's a description of the memory in it: 8MB, 145ns. This > box has the following switches on the front panel, in addition to the > power switch: > > Station ID (two thumbwheels) Does this indicate that this was part of a multiple-processor system? > Load options: > local/aux > disk/tape > primary OS/alt OS Does anyone on this list know of other systems with a switch that apparently selects which operating system gets loaded? > BCD restart/system reset Does anyone have an idea what BCD restart is? It causes the diagnostic display to blink. System reset causes it to go through the same countdown that occurs when the system is powered up, then as also when powered up, displays a few different codes, then displays 800F. > diag port: on/off > mode: normal/diagnostic > ps margin: +5%/normal/-5% What's a ps margin switch for? > On the back of the machine are the following connectors: > > LS link (low speed link?): pos 0, pos1, pos2 (9-pin) > Diagostic port (25-pin - RS232 port?) > System bus: channel A, channel B (9-pin) > HS link (high speed linl?): pos 4, pos 5, pos6, pos7 (9-pin) The boards in this system include: * NMAB board (does anyone have an idea what this is?): Contains mostly 74xxx logic, including about 30 or so 74F374 ICs, 74F244, 74F139, 74F373, 74F191, 74F175, etc., and some Motorola ICs: 6-1090367DS and 7-1682604DS (no idea what these are). Also some PCA EP8301 active delay lines. There are three wide ribbon connectors (approx. 50 cond.) going to both the memory and CPU boards, and a fourth that just goes to the CPU board. * Single Port Memory Mother bd.: This contains eight memory cards, and has another 8 empty slots, so, the maximum memory this system can use, I'm guessing, is 16MB. * PE API (main part of CPU board): Contains six 1" square chips with heat-sinks I can't remove to see the IC ID numbers. I was told this system has some Intel chips in it, and, not seeing any elsewhere, am guessing that these are the Intel chips. What Intel chips co-exist with a writeable control store? Can't wait until the schematics arrive! There are also sixteen little square block ICs: PCA EP7308 077-8337305 (no idea what these are - couldn't find any info. Delay lines?) and four larger 24-pin (IIRC) chips: NCR/32-5802E 6266155 7-1680941 and NCR/32-590F C906A21 7-1680951 (does anyone know what these are?), two crytal oscillators (13 and 32MHz), etc. * Writeable Control Store: Mounted atop the CPU board. Contains seventy-two AMD 7-168436 (the only other number on them is the 86xx date code number) ICs, six MB7142H (2k * 8 dual port SRAM?) ICs, assorted 74Fxxx logic, six Motorola 7-1682609DS, etc. Somehow, I'm getting the feeling that the numbers on some of these chips are special numbering schemes from NCR, e.g. the 7-xxxxx... numbers. :-( * SBA/TOD - appears to contain the time of day clock circuitry; anyone know what SBA stands for? This is also mounted atop the CPU board. * API/SAM - very small circuit board containing two 555 timers and a few other ICs; this board is mounted atop the SBA/TOD board. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 23:23:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: <200006210355.UAA00440@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Well, I know the only time I need to see the LED's on my /44 or /73 is when > I'm working the hardware, at which point I've got the card cages opened up. > It would have taken serious work, to get those LED's to show up somewhere > other than on the card itself, and doing that work would place restrictions > on the chassis. Not necessarily... the boards could have been mounted horizontally with the LEDs at the edge of the boards facing a plexiglas panel, or, the front panel designed with punch-out areas where LEDs attached to inexpenive ribbon cables could have been connected. > Besides who is to say I want controller 'X' with it's > particular LED scheme? Maybe I want controller 'Y' which has a totally > different set of LED's, or maybe none at all. See above. A front panel with punch-out areas (recloseable if board for LEDs is removed), where the LED displays for various boards could be installed. > A better question might be, why not. It makes sense from both a design > standpoint, and a cost standpoint. I can see a cost standpoint, but I suspect the design standpoint was influenced by marketing wanting to hide the intricacies of the machine from the users. > Note: All these comments are relative to PDP-11's and VAXen, I'm not > familiar with SMD drives or NCR applications processors. It just seems reasonable that a drive's display, which lets one know certain things about what the drive is doing, as well as diagnostic info., is more useful on the front panel, rather than hidden behind something that needs to be opened up or removed in order to see it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 21 01:01:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Any AS/400 experts around? Message-ID: <20000621060153.11594.qmail@brouhaha.com> I'm now the proud (?) owner of an old AS/400, Type 9406 Model B45. Assuming that when we managed to let the rack fall on its side that we didn't destroy it; this is yet to be determined. Anyhow, I have very little (bordering on no) clue about AS/400s, so if anyone else knows about them, tips, advice, help, or the like would be greatly appreciated. The system came with about twelve Type 9332-600 disk drives (600M each), a Type 9348-001 nine-track drive (which is an HP 88780 with a custom front panel), and two terminals (but only one keyboard). It appears that the disks and tape drive are differential SCSI devices with Sun-style 50-pin D-sub connectors. I vaugely recall reading in the past that AS/400s use a weird sector size that is not a power of two; most high-end SCSI drives can be reformatted for alternate sector sizes. The CPU box contains: part feature upper lower slot number number connector connector function ---- ------- ------- --------- --------- ---------- 1 66X4709 3060 16M memory 2 66X4709 3060 16M memory 3 66X4490 3055 8M memory 4 21F5132 2513 processor? tamper seals! 5 93X2120 2514 ??? 6 93X2701 2601 50 female tape interface 7 93X2709 6110 50 female disk interface 8 46F4141 6130 ??? 9 26F5028 6031 50 male 50 male ??? 10 59X4270 6040 25 female ??? 11 93X2737 6110 50 female second disk interface? 12 blank panel 13 blank panel I guess that one of the cards in slot 9 or 10 must be an interface to terminals or to a 3174 terminal controller or the like. The IBM AS/400 web site doesn't seem to have any info on hardware this old. I'd really like to get an ethernet interface. I got factory-sealed 9-track tape distributions of two different releases of OS/400, four tapes each. I gather that there's some sort of license key needed for the software, so I have no idea whether I'll be able to install it. Naturally when I got the machine the seller didn't make any arrangements for a license transfer. For the price I paid I suppose it would be unreasonable to ask them to jump through hoops to do such a thing. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 03:52:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Power Supply In-Reply-To: <000501bfd716$14009ca0$0c703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: >I just picked up an IBM PC Convertible at a thrift shop. It has a battery >(dead), but no power supply. Does anyone know the power specifications for >it? Mine looks like 15 v (has a flat line on top with 3 dots below it, which I "think" means DC) and 2.7 amps. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 08:01:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE4F@TEGNTSERVER> > I've got an ADM-5. What a neat little terminal! I like it a lot. > > I think I want to get an iMac and set them side-by-side. :) Could the reason for the iMac's popularity be racial memory of the ADM-3 and 5 days? :-) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 08:09:28 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE50@TEGNTSERVER> > Something's been puzzling me: when I look at my CDC SMD drive, the NCR > applications processor, some smaller SMD drives, LEDs in my 11/44, > etc., there's something I just don't understand. Why did companies > begin hiding blinking lights, status displays, etc. behind covers, in > places behind the front panel that aren't obvious at first glance, > hidden in boards in a card cage, etc.? So they wouldn't have to document their meaning for end-users. "hello, Prime Technical Support, how may I help you?" "My P400 front panel is blinking wildly, like I've never seen before; what should I do?" "We can sell you a VCP-based P650 that won't blink wildly and generate extraneous service calls to us, for $125k and your existing P400 system. How soon would you like delivery?" -dq From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 21 09:03:13 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Computers" Message-ID: <20000621090313.Y4176@mrbill.net> I've got a in-good-shape copy of this book, which I enjoyed very much- anybody out there an IBM fan, want this book, and have something interesting to trade for it in turn? Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Jun 21 10:39:06 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) References: <30.66aa642.267c429e@aol.com> Message-ID: <002501bfdb96$d606a400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 4:55 AM Subject: Re: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) > wasnt there a similar issue with the TRS80 model 1's expansion interface? I > remember hearing that it had a dodgy connection and many people devised > methods of maintaining good contact. Yep like real goldplated connector replacements which did cost a fortune. Beleive me you needed those ! Sipke From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Jun 21 10:50:48 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? References: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <004f01bfdb98$78628e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> > Despite thier poor reliability record, I still like Miniscribe drives. > They sound neat. "Peeep wobble wobble Peep". Western Digital bought what > was left of Miniscribe and produced some really aweful drives when IDE was > beginning to really catch on. I remember stacks of dead WD 40mb 3.5" > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > sound neat though..... > > I remember 3.5 " WD types that were mounted in a 5.25 bracket. At some point in their lives they would generate a lot of bad sectors in the outer cylinders. (You would expect the inner cylinders because of the higher bit densities). To fix the problem: partially unscrew the drive from the bracket (with a torck-tool) an fasten it crosswise (like you would fasten a tire). The harddisk would happely run another couple of years. Some supplier threw the bad ones out, and we asked the corpses for socalled educational purposes but quikly repaired them instead. Sipke From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 10:05:02 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <002501bfdb96$d606a400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <000e01bfdb92$132b3490$350810ac@chipware.com> > > wasnt there a similar issue with the TRS80 model 1's expansion > > interface? I remember hearing that it had a dodgy connection > > and many people devised methods of maintaining good contact. > > Yep like real goldplated connector replacements which did cost > a fortune. Beleive me you needed those ! Yup, all three of mine have gold plated edge connectors soldered on to the original edge connectors. It makes things a bit ugly... From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Jun 21 10:25:02 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer > > with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit > > Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? > > [...] > > You'll need a copy of the AMD bipolar processor databook (or 2900 > databook) to do much with this board. And a copy of 'Mick & Brick' (a > book entitled 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design') would be useful as well. I have a copy of the AMD 2900 databook, which I might try to scan in somewhere (I can photocopy sections out for John if he needs them right away); someone also recently provided me with a scanned version of the Am2901 datasheet, which I can share. You're on your own for a copy of Mick and Brick - it's copyrighted, so I can't scan it in - and I'm not giving up my copy.... ;-) Powell's (http://www.powells.com) has two used copies available for $23.00/each. --Pat. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 11:37:44 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Yo References: <394FC6BF.63.5AA244E@localhost> Message-ID: <20000621163253.67342.qmail@hotmail.com> You could give your stuff to a local science center, they usually have tons of storage. Of course, the stipulation is they have to pick it up, and promise not to dispose of it. It would be easy to make a timeline of personal computers exhibit, or something. Include instructions on how to get lynx going via telnet on a Commodore 64, they can be used as internet terminals! If you ever go to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago (Highly reccomended) check out the chemistry and physics exhibits. TI99/4s, Atari 400's, and Commodore 64's drive most of the "Interactive" exhibits. Supercool. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Sieler" To: "John R. Keys Jr." ; Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:32 PM Subject: Re: Yo > Re: > > ... > > I have over 3000 hardware items, over 1500 books, > ... > > My wife says if I die before the museum is built than this all goes to the > > trashman. > > That underscores something I posted on last year: > > MAKE A WILL! > > Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the disposition of > their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on eBay", maybe it's > "offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to Stanford"...or ? > > Even if you don't decide now, your will will name an executor...he/she > should be made aware of the value of the collection. > > All too often, I hear about people dying and some computer (or more!) > being thrown away. > > For collectors who live alone, they should make sure *somebody* is aware that > their collection isn't trash! Even if you know no one, and have no friends, > no relatives, post a note somewhere in your house/apartment ... it'll be your > final way of giving back to the hobby. > > (Yes, I have one...produced for free, using Classic software (an obsolete > version of some will program from Nolo Press)) > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 11:44:29 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Radio shows? References: Message-ID: <20000621163937.35432.qmail@hotmail.com> Yeah, the guy who wrote OpenVMS also wrote Windows 2000, so they're the same thing so use Windows 2000 on your VAX 9000, hehehe. Actually you could ask questions on DECWindows, insist it's "Just like Windows 98 but it doesn't crash as much" Possible "Windows" substitutes: -DECWindows -Macintosh System X (Pick an old one, like version 4) -GEM (Atari Power!) -Amiga Workbench (Tell them you've got it on your G3) -GEOS (On your Commodore 64 with a CMD hard drive) -IRIX -SunOS (NOT Solaris, SunOS, preferably on a Sun 3, with X11R4) -OpenLook -The best: Linux or *bsd with fvwm95 (My friend says it looks just like Windows!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Radio shows? > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of > > Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. > > MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I > > doing wrong? > > I've got the answer! :-) Here's what you're doing wrong: You're using > MS-Windows. :-) :-) :-) > > Seriously, good example! Expect answers like: "Firstly, I think you > meant to say VMS - that stood for very much storage, heheh, although > it's not much storage these days (snort), not MVS, and no one uses VMS > any more, so upgade to NT on a newer maching your problem should go > away," "I used to have one of those 9-track players in my car - never > heard of anyone using one with a computer; you need to upgrade it." > [yes, I know the difference between an 8 track audio player and a > 9-track magtape drive, but I'll bet they won't]. Also, expect to be > asked if you've configured Luzedoze correctly on your 370. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 11:49:03 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. References: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000621164411.36780.qmail@hotmail.com> I just realized what everyone is talking about. I picked one up a while back from UofM Property Depot for, drumroll, $1. It looked like the old library terminals my town used to use, when I was little I thought they looked super-high-tech. I've got it running the console on my home linux box, which is mounted in a big COMTAL VISION/1 mainframe cage. At least I can pretend I'm using a mainframe... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 4:37 PM Subject: ADM's on list. > > Bill Sudbrink asks: > > How many {ADM-3A's} are out there, just on this list? > > One here. ADM-5, I think. Similiar looking. No eBay. > > (This was found, hanging above the floor, face > down only by its cord, pushed off behind a > table next to a networking wireharness, One > small island of HW in a building being gutted > just last year. The ADM had been forgotten but > was still running happily. A workhorse.) > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 11:48:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) (Chris Kennedy) Message-ID: <39510E02.26992.3DDE2733@localhost> > On June 16, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > > > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > > > its introduction. > > I suppose it depends on what you define as "changed very little". '71, '73, > > '74, '76, '78, '82 and '85 all introduce significant chassis changes. > > The liquid-cooled current production engine has only passing resemblance > > to the air-cooled precursors and the transaxle has seen radical changes. > > About the only thing that is really constant about the car is the shape, > > the transmission-in-front-of-differential-in-front-of-engine-layout > > and the organization of the engine as a boxer-six. Oh, and the location > > of the ignition on the left-hand side of the wheel :-) > > Look hard enough and almost every bit has been radically revisited, which > > coupled with the amazing ability to graft in stuff from the 930/34/35 and > > even a few 928 bits, makes for *all sorts* of fun for those of us who get > > geeky over 911s... :-) > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > lot, they're damn near identical. Well, compared to some car makers, who offer new shells every other year, while still 1960s technology is below the different colored sheet metal, Porsche is way conservative ... Still I prefer a new chasis design over colored bumpers (Thats maybe why I still love the CX :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 11:48:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39510E02.9448.3DDE2752@localhost> > > Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? > At one point I was seriously considering a VCF East this summer but time > is too tight unfortunately, so it'll have to wait until next year (unless > someone wants to travel to the east coast in the dead of winter...I know I > don't :) > If someone wants to help host a midwest edition then contact me and we'll > discuss the possibilities. Say, isn't Florida somewhat more easterly than Ca. ? VCF at Disney World ? :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Jun 21 11:51:51 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Any AS/400 experts around? In-Reply-To: <20000621060153.11594.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I retrieved an old AS/400 and a stack of manuals a while back. I believe my manuals cover the CISC 9402/9404/9406 machines. If you get yours close to the point of booting I can look up the SRC codes from the console in the manuals. I also learned in the manuals that IBM included some sort of sensor in many of the models where if excess movement was detected the machine would demand a new system password be generated from IBM. That paranoid IBM plot was supposed to prevent people transferring ownership of the machine without paying IBM their due. Apparently you can bypass the system password for a time but after a set period the machine will refuse to reboot. I don't know for sure if the 9406 had that feature. As I recall that is one of the larger models. I never had the correct pile of twinax gear to get mine successfully booted. Its drives were recycled from 524 bytes/sector to 512 bytes/sector into my RS/6000 220. Incidentally, there is a web site with info on this hardware: http://www2.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?xh=jN7O$Vn32jOgss0USenGnN9332&request=usa.salesmanual&parms=&xhi=usa%2emain&xfr=N Paul On 21 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm now the proud (?) owner of an old AS/400, Type 9406 Model B45. > Assuming that when we managed to let the rack fall on its side that we > didn't destroy it; this is yet to be determined. Anyhow, I have very > little (bordering on no) clue about AS/400s, so if anyone else knows > about them, tips, advice, help, or the like would be greatly > appreciated. > > The system came with about twelve Type 9332-600 disk drives (600M each), > a Type 9348-001 nine-track drive (which is an HP 88780 with a custom > front panel), and two terminals (but only one keyboard). It appears > that the disks and tape drive are differential SCSI devices with > Sun-style 50-pin D-sub connectors. I vaugely recall reading in the past > that AS/400s use a weird sector size that is not a power of two; most > high-end SCSI drives can be reformatted for alternate sector sizes. > > The CPU box contains: > > part feature upper lower > slot number number connector connector function > ---- ------- ------- --------- --------- ---------- > 1 66X4709 3060 16M memory > 2 66X4709 3060 16M memory > 3 66X4490 3055 8M memory > 4 21F5132 2513 processor? tamper seals! > 5 93X2120 2514 ??? > 6 93X2701 2601 50 female tape interface > 7 93X2709 6110 50 female disk interface > 8 46F4141 6130 ??? > 9 26F5028 6031 50 male 50 male ??? > 10 59X4270 6040 25 female ??? > 11 93X2737 6110 50 female second disk interface? > 12 blank panel > 13 blank panel > > I guess that one of the cards in slot 9 or 10 must be an interface to > terminals or to a 3174 terminal controller or the like. > > The IBM AS/400 web site doesn't seem to have any info on hardware this > old. > > I'd really like to get an ethernet interface. > > I got factory-sealed 9-track tape distributions of two different releases > of OS/400, four tapes each. I gather that there's some sort of license > key needed for the software, so I have no idea whether I'll be able to > install it. Naturally when I got the machine the seller didn't make any > arrangements for a license transfer. For the price I paid I suppose it > would be unreasonable to ask them to jump through hoops to do such a > thing. > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 21 11:54:28 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Computers" In-Reply-To: <20000621090313.Y4176@mrbill.net> (message from Bill Bradford on Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:03:13 -0500) References: <20000621090313.Y4176@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000621165428.16899.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I've got a in-good-shape copy of this book, which I enjoyed > very much- If you liked that one, try to get a copy of _IBM's Early Computers_ by Bashe, et al. It's unfortunately out of print, but it's worth having. Also in the same "series": _Building IBM_, and _Memories that Shaped an Industry_, by Pugh. I think these latter two are still in print, but they're less essential IMHO than _IBM's Early Computers_. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Jun 21 12:03:22 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: DEC MUX cables free Message-ID: Recently I came across a variety of DEC QBUS MUX cables, and they are available at the cost of shipping. I have several BC19B-12 cables which go from the CXY-08 MUX to 4 DB25 RS-232 ports. I seem to recall someone from the list wanted one of these a while back. I also have large number of BC16D cables which connect a CXA-16 MUX board (the one without the full modem control lines) to the H3104 8 port banjo MMJ patch panels (also available). Let me know if any of these interests you. paul From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 21 13:20:55 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer models because I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. hurry, hurry step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! www.nothingtodo.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 12:24:20 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> References: Message-ID: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> Chuck: > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to walk > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the very middle of the City ... Examples, especialy when comparing to human behaviour are extrem vulnerable to cultural differences :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Jun 21 12:30:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <20000621164411.36780.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000621102844.00bc7950@208.226.86.10> At 12:49 PM 6/21/00 -0400, Jason wrote: >... my home linux box, which >is mounted in a big COMTAL VISION/1 mainframe cage. At least I can pretend >I'm using a mainframe... Oh man! What happened to the COMTAL ? I'd love to get my hands on a VISION/1 or the earlier model which was 4' tall and had table top for the big BARCO monitor that sat on top of it. I programmed the thing at the Image Processing Institute at USC (source of about 99% of the images used in Image processing research BTW) --Chuck From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 12:30:27 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <20000621164411.36780.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfdba6$63f3cf40$350810ac@chipware.com> > I just realized what everyone is talking about. I picked one up a > while back from UofM Property Depot for, drumroll, $1. Blue or brown? From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 12:30:27 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39510E02.9448.3DDE2752@localhost> Message-ID: <001001bfdba6$63fcf700$350810ac@chipware.com> > Say, isn't Florida somewhat more easterly than Ca. ? > > VCF at Disney World ? > :)) NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 12:33:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <39511897.23191.3E077DA8@localhost> > I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford > to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people > like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my > budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, > Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer > models because I either have one or more, or space is at a > premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage > to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers > +accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org > to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying > this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant > to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. Well, I'm paying some USD 400/Month for storage of my collection. I'd love to reduce the cost, but within the City this is a real bargain - and I don't want to store my babies in a distance of one or two diving hours. Gruss H. BTW: I stumbled across a real nice, almost classic web site: http://www.buckosoft.com/linux/ A 386/40, still serving the WWW -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 12:40:58 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> Message-ID: <200006211740.KAA21717@civic.hal.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > Chuck: > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to walk > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > > While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill > constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody > even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select > some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people > cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the > very middle of the City ... > > Examples, especialy when comparing to human behaviour are extrem > vulnerable to cultural differences :) Hi Hans How about beepers and cell phones in theaters? I think most cultures would consider that rude. Later Dwight From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 12:44:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001001bfdba6$63fcf700$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <39510E02.9448.3DDE2752@localhost> Message-ID: <39511B2B.27572.3E118D76@localhost> > > Say, isn't Florida somewhat more easterly than Ca. ? > > VCF at Disney World ? > > :)) > NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and > kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during > the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). Wooha - no please, thats the most expensive timeframe possible. You don't get _any_ discount flight to FL during the Winterferien. Just the other way, thy charge doubble (at least it looks like). What about mid January ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Jun 21 12:55:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000621104915.00a85ce0@208.226.86.10> At 07:24 PM 6/21/00 +0200, Hans wrote: >Chuck: > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to > walk > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > >While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill >constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody >even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select >some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people >cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the >very middle of the City ... But this is exactly my point. When people say "Gee, 95% of the worlds mail programs can handle HTML so you shouldn't complain about me sending it to the list." They are apply their "local" cultural mores to a "non-local" community. You're Munichens (sp?) when they visit Florida and stroll down the beach without tops are quite surprised when the local authorities ask them to cover up, they are using their local code of ethics in a place where it doesn't apply. The point is that in "this culture" (where "this culture" is defined to be the set of people who subscribe to and read the classiccmp mailing list) it is "rude" to send mail in HTML. So attempting to argue right/wrong based on a technical discussion of the relative market penetration of HTML compatible mail readers is fruitless. Further, discussions like "the so-and-so list is all HTML and nobody there minds." is also not a valid argument to support HTML in mail. --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 12:53:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE56@TEGNTSERVER> > I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to > maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like > John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest > and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually > turned down some of the more popular computer models because > I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also > pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines > as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it > feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of > the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would > one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too > commercial or plaster my domain with ads. Ok... what you said... (in other words, ditto...) plus: I rob Peter to buy Paul... I sell family heirlooms (not yet, but it could happen) I sell items from the collection that mean less now than when I acquired them. I look for one-off consulting jobs that involve little or no work and put a small stipend in my pocket. I know when the yearly bonus is coming, and make certain I make the grade. I eat TV dinners instead of grazing at China Buffet; I avoid the temptation to order a pizza to be delivered; I stop buying grocieries onesy-twosy at the Dreary Mart and haul my ass down to Sam's and get a reasonable price. When I'm really desparate to acquire something, I even go back to making iced tea instead buying soft drinks; I can get a fifth of V.O.B. for the price of a pint of Maker's Mark, so I do that. I skip repairs to the Audi; on this one, the law of diminishing returns will kick in soon. Probably other ways I can't think of right now... -dq From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 12:55:04 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39511B2B.27572.3E118D76@localhost> Message-ID: <001101bfdba9$d4649220$350810ac@chipware.com> > > > VCF at Disney World ? > > > NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and > > kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during > > the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). > > Wooha - no please, thats the most expensive timeframe possible. > You don't get _any_ discount flight to FL during the Winterferien. > Just the other way, thy charge doubble (at least it looks like). > > What about mid January ? Hmmm... It's a harder sell. The wife is a teacher and doesn't like to take the kids out of school. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 21 12:57:19 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <200006211740.KAA21717@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jun 21, 2000 10:40:58 AM Message-ID: <200006211757.LAA09739@calico.litterbox.com> > Hi Hans > How about beepers and cell phones in theaters? I think > most cultures would consider that rude. > Later > Dwight To the point where in Japan you can get (I've read) a small transmitter that tells the cel phones IT is the closest cel - and then does nothing, so they don't ring, can't dial out, are essentially useless inside the transmitter's limited range. Which is the inside of a theater, resteraunt, etc. I want one for U.S. Celphones that will fit in my car. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 13:00:49 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001101bfdba9$d4649220$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <39511B2B.27572.3E118D76@localhost> Message-ID: <39511EF1.16671.3E204D09@localhost> > > > > VCF at Disney World ? > > > NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and > > > kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during > > > the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). > > Wooha - no please, thats the most expensive timeframe possible. > > You don't get _any_ discount flight to FL during the Winterferien. > > Just the other way, thy charge doubble (at least it looks like). > > What about mid January ? > Hmmm... It's a harder sell. The wife is a teacher and doesn't like > to take the kids out of school. An extended weekend ? That's not realy taking out ... You fly in on Thursday, help for setup, and your whife arives on friday evening into the ready organized cosy hotel room :) Err, we are already planing, but who is hosting the show ? Any surviveing orange farmer among us ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 13:01:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HTML in mail Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE58@TEGNTSERVER> > Chuck: > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it s rude to walk > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > > While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill > constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody > even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select > some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people > cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the > very middle of the City ... > > Examples, especialy when comparing to human behaviour are extrem > vulnerable to cultural differences :) However, one can grow up in a particular culture, only to find out after-the-fact what is considered by *other people* to be rude... case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like riding the bus. So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people (apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. Boy, I'm still hearing about that one from my co-workers... 8D -dq From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 13:12:24 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001101bfdba9$d4649220$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <001301bfdbac$400a2dd0$350810ac@chipware.com> On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It would have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else professional going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could possibly talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 13:16:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000621104915.00a85ce0@208.226.86.10> References: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> Message-ID: <3951228F.10205.3E2E6D3F@localhost> > At 07:24 PM 6/21/00 +0200, Hans wrote: > >Chuck: > > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to > > > walk > > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > >While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill > >constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody > >even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select > >some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people > >cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the > >very middle of the City ... > But this is exactly my point. When people say "Gee, 95% of the worlds mail > programs can handle HTML so you shouldn't complain about me sending it to > the list." They are apply their "local" cultural mores to a "non-local" > community. You're Munichens (sp?) when they visit Florida and stroll down > the beach without tops are quite surprised when the local authorities ask > them to cover up, they are using their local code of ethics in a place > where it doesn't apply. Well, we're (at least most) are aware about the 'unusual' bahavior among US setlements :) In fact, I wasn't about to start a fight (especialy since I agree to your statement about HTML), I just tried to point out that some example, as good as it may look in first sight, may be ill behaved. Anyway Gruss H. It's Muenchner (or Münchner :)) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Jun 21 13:32:29 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com>; from SUPRDAVE@aol.com on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:31:05PM +0000 References: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20000621143229.A5639@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:31:05PM +0000, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and >expand their collections. Simple -- working with classic computers makes you smarter, so folks who collect them are naturally highly skilled and get paid more than the average programmer or engineer. 1/2 :-) John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 13:10:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and >expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D >Basically I take I do mine just like most collectors in most other areas, I buy, sell, and trade. Buying is a LOT more fun than the others, but most of the time I can't just buy what I want, and end up with a pallet of misc. The only thing that really keeps my budget floating is that I don't pay for storage, piling stuff around the garage and house instead. Even a tiny storage room here in Orange, CA costs a couple hundred bucks a month, and then your stuff is essentially all packed away and you can't really play with it. Selling, the logistics of writing ads, packing, waiting to ship, really suck, but OTOH there is a lot of satisfaction from providing people with items they are unable to find and really need. Trading, other than face to face, is my last resort. It is so much easier to list an item on eBay, then take the cash and buy my toys. PayPal is making me a little goofy, as it "feels" like found money, ie much more tempting to spend. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 13:31:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 16, 0 01:08:28 am Message-ID: >[HP82161 digital cassette drive] > >> Serious begging/logic/waving$ only regarding the little box with 6 data >> cassettes, which I am guessing will be dandy in my HX-20. > >No they won't (I have an HP82161 and several HX20s). > >The HX20 uses microcassette tapes, which is a standard created by one of >the Japanese companies (Sanyo?) for dictating machines. Audio tapes work >fine in the HX20, or at least they always have for me. The mechanical >form of the cassette is identical. > >The HP82161 uses a special tape cassette. It's somewhat similar >mechanically to the Philips minicassette (also used in dictating >machines), but it's not identical to it. There are extra notches in the >HP tape to prevent audio tapes from being used. The HP tapes have an >internal mirror for optical EOT detection (like a QIC cartridge). I think >the tape is different to normal audio tape. They are _no way_ the same as >microcassettes. > >I believe that the HP cassettes were standard items at one time. The >alignment tape (which I don't have :-() is supposed to be a Verbatim >product, so I guess Verbatim made normal data cassettes as well. > >FWIW, the HP82161 tapes are hard to find (at least in the UK) (I have my >unit for reading such tapes mostly that people send me -- I have exactly >one scratch tape), so you might well find an HP calculator enthusiast >would like them (and would pay a reasonable amount for them). > >-tony Here is some information off the little hoard of tapes I have. Six tapes in the fitted plastic box. Philips brand, Certified Digital mini-cassette LDB 4401, made in Austria, 8920 440 10101. One has a tape label with hand printed Transport 1.1 and 1.2. None are sealed, but none but the label unit look particularly used. Rewinding one with a pencil revealed nothing special, ie no mirror. The drive has a HP brand tape in it, but that goes with the drive to Stan. If you want a tape, email me and I will work out some nominal fee, most likely by listing one on eBay to see if I am insane for parting with them first, but keeping it nominal for people on the list. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 13:42:13 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:51 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE58@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation >of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that >flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like >riding the bus. > >So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people >(apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, >far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. If anybody stared, just tell them, "malaria, makes me feel hot" and cough a couple times at them. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 13:50:38 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. References: <000f01bfdba6$63f3cf40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000621184549.35848.qmail@hotmail.com> Grey, looks like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=358409684 But without the case. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:30 PM Subject: RE: ADM's on list. > > I just realized what everyone is talking about. I picked one up a > > while back from UofM Property Depot for, drumroll, $1. > > Blue or brown? > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 13:52:47 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. References: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000621102844.00bc7950@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000621184755.14348.qmail@hotmail.com> Last I heard, 3M bought out COMTAL, then dropped them in the mid eighties. If you peruse old Byte and Computer Graphics magazines you'll see ads for the 3M Comtal machines. I've just got the box, it came from Wayne State University's physics department, probably in use for some kind of wierd partical accelerator results imaging, or something. Man, I miss having a minivan... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:30 PM Subject: Re: ADM's on list. > At 12:49 PM 6/21/00 -0400, Jason wrote: > >... my home linux box, which > >is mounted in a big COMTAL VISION/1 mainframe cage. At least I can pretend > >I'm using a mainframe... > > Oh man! What happened to the COMTAL ? I'd love to get my hands on a > VISION/1 or the earlier model which was 4' tall and had table top for the > big BARCO monitor that sat on top of it. I programmed the thing at the > Image Processing Institute at USC (source of about 99% of the images used > in Image processing research BTW) > > --Chuck > > From transit at lerctr.org Wed Jun 21 14:10:50 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation > >of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that > >flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like > >riding the bus. Tell me about it. When I was a kid (early 70's), we dressed up in church clothes to fly across country. Nowadays, you can get the same kind of folks that the "No Greyhound in the Amtrak Station" people complain ....not much though. Never really had a problem with other passengers on a plane, train, or (intercity) bus, personally. > > > >So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people > >(apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, > >far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. > > If anybody stared, just tell them, "malaria, makes me feel hot" and cough a > couple times at them. Or, Ebola, makes me feel hot...:-) > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 21 14:43:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000621144343.3697f39a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:10 PM 6/20/00 -0400, Bill wrote: >I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but >did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? > >I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a >bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover >the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, >just on this list? I have one. I found about 20 more in a surplus place last year and offered them here on the CC list for the cost of shipping and a little pocket change but no one was interested. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 21 15:23:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000621152323.4f87c8fa@mailhost.intellistar.net> Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does read it briefly. Joe From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 21 13:28:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001301bfdbac$400a2dd0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is > coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the > west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It would > have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else > professional > going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could possibly > talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? Bill, just for you, I'll check the schedules for the convention centers in the area and see what's cooking for that timeframe :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcruse at acm.org Wed Jun 21 16:36:30 2000 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: HTML in mail References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> <4.3.2.7.2.20000621104915.00a85ce0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3951355E.1F6175B7@acm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/dbdca54d/attachment.html From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Jun 21 14:33:49 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <20000621.144642.-296773.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I get an allowance. All of my computer-related purchases come out of that, except if it's something for my wife's machine, in which case it comes out of our general budget (which doesn't really exist, but we pretend). I'm not aquiring many systems these days; I'm trying to concentrate on getting the systems I have now in some decent shape-- so mostly parts and docs, and junk. Since most of the systems I have are not considered 'investment grade', I can still get most of what I need pretty cheaply (MFM drives-- $1, for example). It gets expensive when I have to buy a part that's still used alot in the 'mainstream' (SCSI CD-ROM's, for example). Almost all of my machines occupy my basement-- the rest occupy a small corner of my otherwise full garage. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jun 21 14:52:42 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <3951355E.1F6175B7@acm.org> from "Mike Cruse" at Jun 21, 2000 02:36:30 PM Message-ID: <200006211952.PAA29362@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Mike Cruse once stated: > > > Your HTML was bloated, there is no reason for the
tags (let the browser set the line length, especially since you used
. But in browsing the archives I have of this group, I present the following the last time this topic came up. Eat and enjoy. From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 15:10:31 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:53 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <20000621.144642.-296773.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <200006212010.NAA21919@civic.hal.com> Hi Being single and owning my own home helps. I'm still in the early stages and haven't considered larger machines. My IMSAI and NIC-80 are the larger of the bunch. Sill, I can define what I think are appropriate usages of space. My problem is that I also like collecting and working on early solid state controlled pin ball machines. These do tend to take more space than I'd like. A couple are folded up to make room for more and I have one on semi-permanent loan to a neighbor. If that one ever has troubles, it may loose its space and then I'm in troubles. Old data manuals take more space than the computers. I still have to get some shelves to see what I have. Shifting heavy boxes, full, around to find the manual I need is getting to my aging back. Dwight From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 15:12:00 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:56 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5B@TEGNTSERVER> > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is > > coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the > > west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It would > > have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else professional > > going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could possibly > > talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? > > Bill, just for you, I'll check the schedules for the convention centers in > the area and see what's cooking for that timeframe :) I meant to speak up sooner when this thread began, but... Louisville, Kentucky, is an ideal site for any convention. We are located in the heart of United States, we have ample convention facilities (but don't choose the weekend where we have the Future Farmers, NHRA Nationals, etc). We have great entertainment facilities (food, music, horse racing), a riverboat casino within a 20-minute drive, a Deja Vu (and plenty of similar facilties), scenic riverboat cruises (these without gambling), a bridge that goes nowhere but stimulates endless debate. What we appear not to have are these places I hear about that have piles upon piles of old computer equipment. At least, if it's here, it's staying hidden from me. Just a thought... -dq From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 15:12:54 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:56 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006212012.NAA21927@civic.hal.com> John Honniball wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:33:05 +0100 Paul Williams > wrote: > > Whoops. Having just been home and checked, I find that my programmer is > > a PP39. However, if you think the documentation for _that_ might be > > useful, let me know. > > Just in case anybody else has one, I have a Stag PPZ > Universal Programmer with manuals for the EPROM and PAL > plug-in modules. The programmer itself is a classic > computer, since it's a 6809 machine with a little built-in > CRT display. > > -- > John Honniball > Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk > University of the West of England Hi John I have a PPZ but no manual. I only have the EPROM module but would love to find out the serial protocals. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 15:15:30 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:56 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query Message-ID: <200006212015.NAA21938@civic.hal.com> Sorry, ment to send to John only. My finger is faster than my brain. Dwight From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 15:19:51 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:56 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5B@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is > > > coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the > > > west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It > > > would > > > have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else > > > professional > > > going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could > > > possibly > > > talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? > > Bill, just for you, I'll check the schedules for the convention centers in > > the area and see what's cooking for that timeframe :) > I meant to speak up sooner when this thread began, but... > Louisville, Kentucky, is an ideal site for any convention. We are > located in the heart of United States, we have ample convention > facilities (but don't choose the weekend where we have the > Future Farmers, NHRA Nationals, etc). We have great entertainment > facilities (food, music, horse racing), a riverboat casino within > a 20-minute drive, a Deja Vu (and plenty of similar facilties), > scenic riverboat cruises (these without gambling), a bridge that > goes nowhere but stimulates endless debate. KFC ? Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Is there no snow in January ? If yes, please go ahead and start organizeing. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed Jun 21 15:21:50 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:56 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <022701bfdbbe$54fe89e0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:35 PM Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 >P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the >reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does >read it briefly. > > Joe > > According to my references: 221 is a ROM to RAM parity error on the System board. Has someone perhaps put non-parity SIMMs in that P70? 165 is a Configuration error. Try setting the date and time and running the System autoconfiguration. I would try putting known good parity SIMMs in the P70 and then try to run the Reference and Diagnostics disks again. Cheers, Mark. From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 15:28:08 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:56 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> Message-ID: <001e01bfdbbf$365faea0$350810ac@chipware.com> > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Arg! Aren't you up past your bedtime? :) From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Jun 21 13:33:06 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000621143306.007b8160@mail.wincom.net> At , you wrote: >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer models because I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. > >hurry, hurry step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! >www.nothingtodo.org > I blew a good chunk of my pension a couple of years ago on the collection, but haven't spent any money since although if anything real interesting comes along I will probably weaken. Our science museum project is at a low ebb since the fellow promoting it unfortunately died. Looks as if the computers will be in my basement and garage for a while. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 13:02:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 08:55:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/efce94ac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:13:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <025701bfdb29$24773f00$2f731fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Jun 20, 0 09:33:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/17d7e5c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:16:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 10:59:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/c7573b1e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:23:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 21, 0 00:10:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/b84b49a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:26:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 21, 0 00:23:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/1b51f346/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:35:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at Jun 21, 0 11:25:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/aeb0924b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 15:27:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/ab34cae4/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 21 15:40:50 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name to? (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 15:44:55 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5C@TEGNTSERVER> > > Louisville, Kentucky, is an ideal site for any convention. We are > > located in the heart of United States, we have ample convention > > facilities (but don't choose the weekend where we have the > > Future Farmers, NHRA Nationals, etc). We have great entertainment > > facilities (food, music, horse racing), a riverboat casino within > > a 20-minute drive, a Deja Vu (and plenty of similar facilties), > > scenic riverboat cruises (these without gambling), a bridge that > > goes nowhere but stimulates endless debate. > > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Better than Kentucky Fried Computers... but we have those, too. 8D > Is there no snow in January ? > If yes, please go ahead and start organizeing. Doug, having previously thought he was standing in a row of assembled veterans of olf hardware, suddenly finds everyone has taken a strategic step backwards, leaving him the leader! I could help with some logisitic details, but organizing something like this is currently beyond my 43-year old competence. To answer the other question, we had snow in January 2000, the first in quite some time. Usually it just rains all winter. It also snowed on Christmas Day, again, the first since perhaps 1977/78. I will make inquiries to the convention & tourism bureau as to the schedule of other conventions. Horse Racing is on vacation in January, however, in case anyone had their heart set on it. -doug q From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Jun 21 16:46:27 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <001001bfdbca$27c100a0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> 165 Systems options not set - (Run Setup) - Card ID mismatch 221 ROM to RAM copy error Run the reference disk and see if that fixes it. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, 22 June 2000 5:38 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 >P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the >reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does >read it briefly. > > Joe > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 21 16:52:41 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <200006212053.PAA54706@opal.tseinc.com> In my situations, incompatible memory usually posts a 225 or 221, but hard to say what's happening here. The 165 comes up usually because the .adf file for an installed adaptor card is missing. That will need to be cleared before the computer will boot from the hard drive. The P70/75 had issues with the floppy drive since it's mounted vertically but hopefully wont be a problem here. try using a cleaning disk on it. goto http://members.aol.com/mcapage0 choosing the PS2 area and download peter's adaptor card ID disk. any ps2 should boot that disk. Another thing i've noticed is dont access newly created reference disks on win9x machines. Ive discovered that sometimes doing a DIR on them renders them unbootable for some reason. have fun with that P70. it's a neat machine. www.nothingtodo.org In a message dated Wed, 21 Jun 2000 4:34:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Mark Gregory" writes: << -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:35 PM Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 >P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the >reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does >read it briefly. > > Joe > > According to my references: 221 is a ROM to RAM parity error on the System board. Has someone perhaps put non-parity SIMMs in that P70? 165 is a Configuration error. Try setting the date and time and running the System autoconfiguration. I would try putting known good parity SIMMs in the P70 and then try to run the Reference and Diagnostics disks again. Cheers, Mark. >> From r.stek at snet.net Wed Jun 21 15:53:55 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Wanted: N* HD controller / drive Message-ID: Ia there anyone out there who has a NorthStar HD controller and/or compatible drive they are willing to part with? I have been looking to add one to my Horizon but haven't found anything. I have a fair number of S-100 boards and other goodies I'm illing to trade. I would even (shudder!) pay cash if I had to. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Jun 21 15:59:56 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, the 2900 databook is copyrighted as well... Most companies don't seem > to mind people copying their data sheets (after all, it sells their > chips!), but it doesn't mean you can scan an post a copy of the databook > without checking first. You are, of course, correct. Therefore, I have just called AMD to ask for permission to redistribute this databook. The person I spoke to said that she didn't think it would be a problem, but is going to try to get someone at AMD to send me an e-mail or letter confirming this. --Pat. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 16:04:48 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5D@TEGNTSERVER> > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > KFC ? > > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > change its name to? > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) Processor Technology? Are you selling a SOL for $100? Hell, I was intending on selling an unfinished moitherboard for that price... and a complete set of docs for more... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 16:13:43 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5E@TEGNTSERVER> > Skimming through the databook again, I've found a little more > info on the Am2900 learning/evaluation kit. While I'd really like to lay my hands on one of these, I suppose if I wanted to get daring, I could just pull the ROMs from the Prime and burn my own (The Prime CPUs were built using the AM2900 family; some models had a writable control store; not my 2455, of course). In case anyone wonders why... it would be really cool to spend five years trying to redesign the Prime CPUs to eliminate the bugs that plagued so many of us for so long... Not much market for them, of course... -dq From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 21 16:17:18 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Wanted: Dranetz 626 Manual Message-ID: ...Header pretty much says it all. Just nabbed a Dranetz 626 recording power disturbance monitor and got no docs with it... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 21 16:20:37 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name > to? > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 21 16:35:43 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3950EEDF.10963.1A1052C@localhost> On 21 Jun 2000, at 17:04, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > KFC ? > > > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) > > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > > change its name to? > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > Processor Technology? Are you selling a SOL for $100? Hell, I > was intending on selling an unfinished moitherboard for that > price... and a complete set of docs for more... I thought that was North Star. I picked up a Horizon at a thrift with the wood in good condition for something like $4.00 not to long ago. They had it marked as a "big disk drive". Guess in their minds that's all it was. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 15:43:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 21, 0 11:31:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1287 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/34b6978b/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 21 15:41:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, James Willing wrote: > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name > > to? > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', > and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko Biloba :) P.S. This was also a Nerd Trivia Challenge question at VCF 2.0 and VCF 1.0e ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 21 17:38:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 In-Reply-To: <022701bfdbbe$54fe89e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000621173825.3e77e6a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:21 PM 6/21/00 -0600, Mark wrote: >> >> > >According to my references: > >221 is a ROM to RAM parity error on the System board. Has someone perhaps >put non-parity SIMMs in that P70? > >165 is a Configuration error. Try setting the date and time and running the >System autoconfiguration. > >I would try putting known good parity SIMMs in the P70 and then try to run >the Reference and Diagnostics disks again. > Thanks Mark. I'll try that. Joe From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000621152323.4f87c8fa@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000621220150.LWLW6272.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:23:23 -0500 > From: Joe > Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 > P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the > reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does > read it briefly. > > Joe > 1. What OS you used to create this ref disk? Reason: If you "look" at that disk after creation with exploder in win9x, ref disk sector that all PS/2 post bios looks for is ruined. Solution: create that disk again and at completion, eject NOW without even looking at it! 2. 165 is CMOS setting error, it needs set again with that ref disk. 3. 221 is memory error type problem. Might need to clear the CMOS again then rerun ref disk. If not, motherboard needs to be replaced. Which I happen to have one (for P70, 20MHz version) that works. Wizard From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 17:31:44 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <20000621223144.78666.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford >to maintain and >expand their collections. Especially >people like John R. Keys. 8-D >Basically I take money out >of my budgest and buy something when it strikes >me. >Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more >popular computer >models because I either have one or >more, or space is at a premium. I also >pay monthly for >small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm > >reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it >feasible to start a >non-profit org to help pay for some >of the costs one incurs while enjoying >this hobby or how >would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become > >too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. Most of my finds about, and buy, for that matter, either through contacts on the internet or through a local thrift store (pickings have been pretty slim lately :( ). ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 21 17:32:23 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: (Fwd) VAX 11/750 Message-ID: <3950FC27.18651.1D4E68A@localhost> Well I'd LOVE to have this but can't arrange it right now so if anyone is interested please contact the person below. Damn, and I so want to play with VMS. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Send reply to: "Lopez-Stickney" From: "Lopez-Stickney" Subject: VAX 11/750 Date sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:33:56 -0400 We have a VAX 11/750 system for sale (or trade) in Central Ohio. It includes the disk drive, printer, a DECwriter, manuals (boxes!!), and a variety of software. This lot fills a full-size Chevy van. If possible, the preference is to sell the whole thing. estickney ------- End of forwarded message ------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 21 17:50:07 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation > >of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that > >flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like > >riding the bus. > > > >So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people > >(apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, > >far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. > > If anybody stared, just tell them, "malaria, makes me feel hot" and cough a > couple times at them. And order a couple of rounds of gin and tonic from the steward(ess?). - don From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 21 18:01:36 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <3.0.5.32.20000621143306.007b8160@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <39514950.EECE3697@rain.org> > >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and > expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be given) quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a storage space, but rather keep everything here at the house/garage/backporch/backyard/... From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 21 18:03:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Nothing wrong with your willpower, Hans. It is your won'tpower that seems to be in short supply :) - don From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 21 18:10:31 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 References: Message-ID: <39514B67.AC9840B8@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, James Willing wrote: > > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name > > > to? > > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > > > Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', > > and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. > > Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer > is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko > Biloba :) Sellam, I can't believe you, of all people, also came up with the wrong answer. Everyone knows that the Northstar Horizon is not the name of the company but the name of a computer put out by this company :). Another piece of trivia: a friend of mine had Kentucky Fried Computers as one of his accounts. He gave me a bunch of photos he took of the storefronts for some of his accounts. I was *really* hoping to see one of KFC, but no such luck. From cube1 at home.com Wed Jun 21 19:07:08 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620175810.5396.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000621185539.05dbdb90@cirithi> There is an alternative. Before Infocom was even formed, a DEC Field Engineer person (I think fondly known as "The Translator") translated the original MDL (pronounced "muddle") (which predates ZIL) into FORTRAN. The game was known as "Dungeon" at that time. (It was known as Zork before that and after that). See http://www.csd.uwo.ca/Infocom/dungeon.html for a good history. In fact, you can take the data files that are in the FORTRAN version on that site, combine them (being careful to set up DTEXT.DAT as a fixed length 80 byte record file) with the VAX port available from http://www.montagar.com/freeware/DUNGEON/ (the data files on the Montagar site are, unfortunately, currently corrupted) and have a running port of Dungeon on a VAX. I did this just this past weekend. The version that was originally ported to the PDP-11 in FORTRAN was submitted to DECUS. I played it under RSX-11 on a PDP-11/23 at one point, and have a copy on an RSX-11 pack that, last I tried it a few years ago, still worked. (Requests will currently be sent off to /dev/null -- too busy. 8-) ). Unfortunately, the DECUS archive at http://www.decus.org/software/index.shtml does not seem to be currently available. Playing one of these older versions would suit the vintage of your PDP-11 better, IMHO, than running one of the later Infocom ZIL version (even though those might be closer to the original source). Jay Jaeger At 05:58 PM 6/20/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote >In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games >for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. >If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd >certainly love to get a copy. > >The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From cube1 at home.com Wed Jun 21 19:17:14 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000621191214.05a02f00@cirithi> The 400t, if you have a DOMAIN/OS rather than the HP-UX keyboard, and you have a SCSI DC-600 tape drive, could potentially run this software. The HP 715/50 would not. It would only run HP's operating system, HP-UX. DOMAIN/OS is the operating system developed by Apollo, before they were swallowed up by HP. These tapes were actually produced after that point, but are Apollo software. As others have explained, /dev/null is another name for the "bit bucket". In DOS-SPEAK: NUL: 8-) Jay At 03:50 AM 6/20/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before > >responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, > >Could someone translate this into English? > >Do I need it or want this? > >I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free >update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 21 19:46:20 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <39514B67.AC9840B8@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Marvin wrote: > Sellam, I can't believe you, of all people, also came up with the wrong > answer. Everyone knows that the Northstar Horizon is not the name of the > company but the name of a computer put out by this company :). Ack! You got me. Beet me with the geekstick until I'm bloody. > Another piece of trivia: a friend of mine had Kentucky Fried Computers as > one of his accounts. He gave me a bunch of photos he took of the storefronts > for some of his accounts. I was *really* hoping to see one of KFC, but no > such luck. That would have been cool. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 21 20:49:00 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > > change its name to? > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > Processor Technology? No. > Are you selling a SOL for $100? Sorry. If I had one right now, I might. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 21 20:05:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:05 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > >> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and >> expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. > >The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space >to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be given) >quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a storage >space, but rather keep everything here at the >house/garage/backporch/backyard/... > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 21 20:06:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <007e01bfdbe6$daf9aca0$7664c0d0@ajp166> >> > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name >> > to? >Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer >is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko >Biloba :) Still wrong! It was not the NS* Horizon as the name change preceeds it by not less than two years. Keep in mind I have the NS* MDS-A Minifloppy I'd bought before the NS* in late 1976 and KFC had long since been forgotten. If memory serves KFC was a 6800 based machine. Allison From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:09:33 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: New Finds References: Message-ID: <00da01bfdbee$e95abac0$f0721fd1@default> Thanks for the information and I will follow up on the book. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Barron To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 10:25 AM Subject: Re: New Finds > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer > > > with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit > > > Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? > > > > [...] > > > > You'll need a copy of the AMD bipolar processor databook (or 2900 > > databook) to do much with this board. And a copy of 'Mick & Brick' (a > > book entitled 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design') would be useful as well. > > I have a copy of the AMD 2900 databook, which I might try to scan in > somewhere (I can photocopy sections out for John if he needs them right > away); someone also recently provided me with a scanned version of the > Am2901 datasheet, which I can share. > > You're on your own for a copy of Mick and Brick - it's copyrighted, so I > can't scan it in - and I'm not giving up my copy.... ;-) Powell's > (http://www.powells.com) has two used copies available for $23.00/each. > > --Pat. > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:20:10 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <010901bfdbf0$6496c660$f0721fd1@default> I do contract programming, computer repairs, and sale some excess computers to low income families to help pay for my collection right now. I also use a big portion of my regular job income pay for all of this. It's at the point now that I will need more funds than I can come up with on my own, so I will be sitting up a non profit to help get funds for all of this. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer models because I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. > > hurry, hurry step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > www.nothingtodo.org > From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed Jun 21 21:16:59 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 with monitor, up for grabs, almost free + shipping Message-ID: <000c01bfdbef$f2321b60$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello all, First the pictures, then the story: http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300front.jpg http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300rear.jpg I stopped in the local Hidden Treasures (actual name) store a couple of weeks ago and noticed this on the shelf, minus keyboard. I've been a regular visitor there for the last several years, and when I pointed out to Terry, the new manager, that this system was kinda useless without the AT&T keyboard, he told me to just take it, as in free, because it was probably going to end up in the dumpster anyway since no one seemed interested in it and this would save him the effort. The power supply fan runs, and little else. No cursor, no boot, no drive activity other than it initializing, no nothing, although the AT&T monitor appears OK since when I turn off the system I get green all over and retrace lines as the power collapses. Same if I unplug the monitor when the system is powered up. The monitor is powered from the 6300 and has a jumper from the PS to the video board, standard 6300. Here's what's included: AT&T monitor, no screen burn, cord storage in swivel base. AT&T 6300 with: PC1050 motherboard, markings of 0091-0-5-00 REV P4, AT&T 227692 T 10 CPU3 9/84, BIOS REV 1.21, FCC DVR7NICPU3; 8086-2 CPU, memory chips are MOSTEK MK4564-N-15; WD1002-WX1 controller; Seagate ST-225; OLIVETTI Video PCB, full length, markings of CRT 313M; OLIVETTI Bus converter; 5.25" floppy drive; power supply; etc. This system is in very good to excellent condition. The computer is dusty inside, but even the felt feet are still on it. The CRT case is not yellowed. The story I got was that an elderly lady had donated it to the store. I'd prefer to sell this system as it is, complete, for $10.00 plus shipping (2 boxes). If you are only interested in the monitor, $10.00 plus shipping also. If no one is interested in the 6300 intact, then I will part it out, 1.2 x shipping for whatever assemblies you want from it. Please email me off list and let me know what you need. Anyone who wants the whole enchilada gets first dibs. If no one does, parts seekers are on a FCFS basis. I'm offering this to the list because I have enough going on and enough systems to restore to keep me busy for the next 10 years. Yes, I can probably find a keyboard and can also likely fix it, but I don't see anything wrong with some systems ending up as parts donors for others. I'll post to the list on the status of this as necessary. For shipping purposes, my zip is 15301. Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 21 21:25:33 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000621192155.04f2ac80@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:41 PM 6/21/00, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, James Willing wrote: > > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its > name > > > to? > > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > > > Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', > > and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. > >Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer >is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko >Biloba :) > >P.S. This was also a Nerd Trivia Challenge question at VCF 2.0 and VCF >1.0e ;) Yeah... I'm properly embarrassed... It struck me about an hour or so later... (d'oh!) Teach me to try to remember trivia when I'm trying to recover from traveling to a weekend wedding... Did not sound quite right... Guess I clicked into "Jeopardy" mode and just locked on the 'wood' part... B^{ -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:34:29 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: New Finds References: Message-ID: <01d401bfdbf2$64e103e0$f0721fd1@default> Boy - Thanks for all the information and I have printed it out and stored it on the zip. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Re: New Finds > > > > AM2901APC/7829DP; AM2909PC/7811DP; AM2907PC/7828DM Those are the > > bigger chips on the board. > > OK, the 2901 is a 4 bit ALU slice (4 bit ALU + 16 4 bit registers). The > 2909 is a 4 bit control store address sequencer. The 2907 is a bus > transceiver/latch chip (and is thus uninteresting!). > > I have found a single-page reference to the Am2900 Evaluation And > Learning Kit in the back of the 2900 databook. According to that : > > 'The system consists of a microprogrammed control unit which controls all > inputs to an AM2901 microprocessor slice. 32 bit microinstructions are > entered into a RAM in the control unit using the switch register. Each > microinstruction contains bits to control the AM2901A's A and B > addtresses, instruction, carry in and data input. Additional bits in the > microinstruction contol an AM2909 sequencer which generates the addresses > for the microprogram memory. Once entered, microinstructions may be > executed using a single-step clock or using a pulse generator. The LED > display provides access to nearly every signal path in the system. > > 16 'Sequence control' instructions are available, including execute, > branch conditional, jump-to-subroutine, return, and loop. Because this > set of sequence instructions is implemented in a PROM, the user can > devise his own set of operations by programming a new PROM. > > The kit is supplied with 40 IC's, all resistors, capacitors, LEDs and > switches, the PC board and a manual containing assembly instructions, > theory, and a set of exercises. The user need only solder the components > in place and attach a 5V power supply (2.0A rating)' > > >From the picture of the unassembled kit, there appears to be 1 40 pin > chip (the 2901), one 28 pin chip (the 2909), a couple of other 'special' > chips (the branch instruction PROM and?), 36 other chips (all look to be > 14 or 16 pin), some toggle switches, some pushbutton switches and a box > of discretes. > > A couple of things may not be too clear from the above description > (particularly if you don't know the 2900 series). The 'RAM' mentioned > above is also called the 'control store' or the 'microprogram memory'. > It's where you store microcode instructions to control the 2901 (you'll > _need_ the data sheet for this!) and the 2909. The PROM sits between the > microprogram memory and the 2909 and basically decodes some of the > microinstruction bits into the 2909 control lines. Which gives you a > (useful) subset of all the operations the 2909 can perform. > > I hope that's of some help. > > > John Keys > > -tony > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:53:43 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Mousepad $71 Message-ID: <029701bfdbf5$155c3c60$f0721fd1@default> Did anyone else see the NeXT mousepad that sold for $71 on ebay at 355310479 ? Now I feel ok I'm not the one who is crazy. John Keys From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 21 22:00:46 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> ????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than plain text? allisonp wrote: > > Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > > > >> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and > >> expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. > > > >The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space > >to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be > given) > >quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a > storage > >space, but rather keep everything here at the > >house/garage/backporch/backyard/... > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Jun 21 22:12:11 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000621185539.05dbdb90@cirithi>; from cube1@home.com on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:07:08PM -0500 References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> <20000620175810.5396.qmail@brouhaha.com> <4.3.1.2.20000621185539.05dbdb90@cirithi> Message-ID: <20000621231211.A7162@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:07:08PM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: >The version that was originally ported to the PDP-11 in FORTRAN was >submitted to DECUS. I played it under RSX-11 on a PDP-11/23 at one point, >and have a copy on an RSX-11 pack that, last I tried it a few years ago, >still worked. (Requests will currently be sent off to /dev/null -- too >busy. 8-) ). I'm surprised this isn't kicking around the net some place. Well I've got an executable+data files for RT-11 on an 8" floppy (or two) somewhere, if anyone wants a copy and it isn't already on an FTP site somewhere, drop me a line. >Playing one of these older versions would suit the vintage of your PDP-11 >better, IMHO, than running one of the later Infocom ZIL version (even >though those might be closer to the original source). I dunno, I'm so tickled by the idea of someone seriously trying to sell games for the PDP-11 that I'm certainly willing to forgive a 5-10 year difference... It's *all* ancient history by now anyway. And it was certainly a nice fit, I remember one of my roommates having trouble solving a puzzle in one of the games because his C64 couldn't display backslashes correctly, no problem on a VT52 though, and the speed was a lot better. John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 21 22:37:53 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: Firstly, Wow! Thanks for making this softwre available! On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Jay Jaeger wrote: > 1. Has an HP/Apollo Domain machine (proof required, including node-id, > preference would be a picture), As my DN3500's color monitor just displays scrolling jumbled text, I managed to use a terminal as a console a while back. However, tonight, I attempted this again, and, nothing appears on the monitor's screen, no matter what baud rate I try or what position that little toggle switch is set to. The video board is still out of the computer. The system apears to be alive to some extent, as the hard drive begins doing something after a short while. Not sure what I'm doing differentlt now than before, but I guess I need to get something to appear on the console terminal in order to get the node-id. The last time I tried getting the system to work, I had no passwords, and had tried following the info. in the FAQ for breaking in, but was unsuccessful. Any ideas? I'd really like to get this system working. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Jun 21 22:41:39 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: DECassetes and HPIL/HPIB available Message-ID: NOTE: I am currently busy and will probably not reply promptly to email. To those already waiting for replies on other things, my apologies; I'll respond as soon as I get spare time. I have 200 DECassettes (TU-60 tapes) on hand; I want to keep a few in case I ever get a TU-60, but would like the others to find good homes. They are 'new' in sealed bags (though as they are obviously old magnetic media and I don't know how they have been stored, this is no guarantee they will be usable). Ideally I would like to trade the lot for something else interesting. The things I'm looking for that a TU-60 owner would be most likely to have available are an RL11 and RL02 packs, but if you want the tapes and have anything else to go, consider making an offer. Failing that, the tapes will be available for sale, to TU-60 users only, at some price not far above shipping cost. I also have a number of (used) HP-IL to HP-IB interfaces (HP 82169A) available. -- Kevin Schoedel From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 22:59:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:57 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) Message-ID: <20000622035948.12522.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay Jaeger wrote: > There is an alternative. Before Infocom was even formed, a DEC Field > Engineer person (I think fondly known as "The Translator") translated the > original MDL (pronounced "muddle") (which predates ZIL) into FORTRAN. Bob Supnik. He and I have worked together on his line of PDP emulator programs. I helped find a bug with the rp driver that surfaced when trying to run 2.9BSD on an emulated PDP-11. There was a poorly documented feature that writing to a read-only register would instigate an interrupt that was a critical feature of the device probing facet of the BSD startup sequence, but that is another story. > Playing one of these older versions would suit the vintage of your PDP-11 > better, IMHO, than running one of the later Infocom ZIL version (even > though those might be closer to the original source). True, but cooler than _that_ is to run *commercial* game software for the PDP-11. I've run the FORTRAN version on various ancient DEC machines. it's the version that is data-file-compatible with the later products that I really want to play with. -ethan (translator of the MDL sources to Inform - Grab a copy at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/zdungeon/ ) ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 23:03:05 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: (Fwd) VAX 11/750 Message-ID: <20000622040305.10196.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> What is this HTML garbage?!? I'm responding to this over Yahoo and I'm stuck in this applet that wants to format my mail for me. :-P Anyway; I'm in Columbus and have already responded to this guy. I already have a couple of 11/750s (8Mb and 12Mb w/ various disks), so I'm not interested in shelling out a lot of coin for another, but I'll see what he wants for it before I decide what to do. -ethan David Williams wrote: Well I'd LOVE to have this but can't arrange it right now so if anyone is interested please contact the person below. Damn, and I so want to play with VMS. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Send reply to: "Lopez-Stickney" From: "Lopez-Stickney" Subject: VAX 11/750 Date sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:33:56 -0400 We have a VAX 11/750 system for sale (or trade) in Central Ohio. It includes the disk drive, printer, a DECwriter, manuals (boxes!!), and a variety of software. This lot fills a full-size Chevy van. If possible, the preference is to sell the whole thing. estickney Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/80747edc/attachment.html From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed Jun 21 23:51:33 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5E@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000201bfdc05$89a36fc0$54e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> While I'd really like to lay my hands on one of these, I -> suppose if I wanted to get daring, I could just pull the -> ROMs from the Prime and burn my own (The Prime CPUs were -> built using the AM2900 family; Same as all the Microdata systems. Wasn't Prime also Pick based systems? -> In case anyone wonders why... it would be really cool to -> spend five years trying to redesign the Prime CPUs to -> eliminate the bugs that plagued so many of us for so long... If you don't want bugs, why not just collect Microdata systems d8^) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 00:20:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: ????????? is a good question! I saw it in 'elm' tonite first, acting wierd, showing up as MIME. However, under Eudora Pro/Mac, it's just a plain message. I don't know unless 'elm' is going by something in the following: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zane >????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. >What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than >plain text? > >allisonp wrote: >> >> Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From nabil at spiritone.com Thu Jun 22 00:47:36 2000 From: nabil at spiritone.com (Aaron Nabil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: DECassetes and HPIL/HPIB available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > NOTE: I am currently busy and will probably not reply promptly to email. > To those already waiting for replies on other things, my apologies; I'll > respond as soon as I get spare time. > > I have 200 DECassettes (TU-60 tapes) on hand; I want to keep a few in > case I ever get a TU-60, but would like the others to find good homes. > They are 'new' in sealed bags (though as they are obviously old magnetic > media and I don't know how they have been stored, this is no guarantee > they will be usable). I have a TU-60, and many what appear to be either RL01 or RL02 packs, but I don't have either drive. I'd like your cassettes. I'll look to see if I have an RL11, but I doubt that I do. -- Aaron Nabil From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 22 02:02:12 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: Re: NCR model 3401 class 5451 (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <14673.47604.204221.578791@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > ps margin: +5%/normal/-5% > > > > What's a ps margin switch for? > > Power Supply Margin testing, I guess. Basically it runs the PSU (+5V > line, probably) at 5% over or under the 'right' value. If you have an > intermittant fault to trace, this may make it appear permanently so you > can track it down. Similarly, a machine that fails on either of the > margin settings is likely to _become_ unreliable even at the normal > voltage, so you can catch errors during preventive maintenance. Interestingly, both the Cray J90 and the YMP-EL (and possibly other models as well) have +- margin switches for their power regulators accessible on their front panels. -Dave McGuire From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 02:17:02 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> Message-ID: <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin" To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 12:30 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > ????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. > What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than > plain text? I see your msgs in a stretched font. Quite different from all the others. In the headers of your msg, we see:- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Others are:- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (From a Unix box I think) or Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" (Another Outlook User) >From one of my msgs (Outlook Express) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In short, your mailer is using an oddbod charset. If you are using Outlook or Outlook Express, have a look at Format Encoding. In the top toolbar when you are writing or replying to a msg. It will be set to user-defined. Set it to Western European (Windows) and it will revert to ISO-8859-1 which seems to be straight ASCII. BTW Allison, when you replied, your mailer switched to the same encoding as his, mine did too, I had to manually change the format. Grrrr. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From nabil at spiritone.com Thu Jun 22 02:55:49 2000 From: nabil at spiritone.com (Aaron Nabil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: RT-11 reference "cards" available In-Reply-To: <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: 2 of the shorter RT-11 pocket reference guides. Free. Email me directly. Include mailing address. -- Aaron Nabil From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 22 04:14:04 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: DECNA for Pro350 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, I have a old DEC Pro350 standing around here. But I don't have a network interface. Does anyone here have a DECNA in spare? Would be fantastic. Thanks in advance, Freddy From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 07:40:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> Message-ID: Hi, It's not every time but at least very frequent when I read mail from you OutlookExpress(or outlook distress ;)) changes fonts to a larger one. My guess is you may be replying to a RTF or HTML message or have some odd embedded controls. Cant see it here as from work the mailer is PINE. Maybe someday I'll replace OutlookExpress but for the time being it mostly does what I want. Allison On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Marvin wrote: > > ????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. > What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than > plain text? > > allisonp wrote: > > > > Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marvin > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:05 PM > > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > > > > > > >> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and > > >> expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. > > > > > >The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space > > >to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be > > given) > > >quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a > > storage > > >space, but rather keep everything here at the > > >house/garage/backporch/backyard/... > > > > From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Jun 22 07:45:47 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: > > Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the > disposition of their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on > eBay", maybe it's offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to > Stanford"...or ? Since my only family is my sister, I told her "Just think, one day all of this will be yours". To which she replied "Great... Which dumpster should I put it in?" Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/e05c905d/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 07:51:22 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Good Morning, Fellow Classicians... A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query regarding those cards I have). It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape drive. Here is what the seller has to say about it: : This is a Digital Equipment Corp Micro PDP11/73 computer : with a TS05 tape drive mounted in a rack. Also included is : what I think is a hard disk unit mounted below the computer. : The front panel of this unit says 'USDC CSS-800 Compact : Storage System'. Also included is a VT320 amber video : terminal. If you look at the photos below you will see that : there is a large space in the middle where something is : missing. I think that there were 2 hard disks mounted in this : space, but they were gone when I got the equipment. I bought : this stuff from the University of Louisville Medical School. : This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the : PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this : is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please : wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think : the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do : from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the : front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test : them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so : it is sold AS-IS. : : Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? Thanks for all replys, -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 07:55:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE62@TEGNTSERVER> > -> While I'd really like to lay my hands on one of these, I > -> suppose if I wanted to get daring, I could just pull the > -> ROMs from the Prime and burn my own (The Prime CPUs were > -> built using the AM2900 family; > > Same as all the Microdata systems. Wasn't Prime also Pick based > systems? Prime sold a subsystem called Information which was more-or-less a clone of Pick, and from the mid-80s on, this may have been its best-selling product (I'm certain it was in the UK). But prior and subsequent to that, Primes were very prevalent as university timesharing systems, and laboratory support systems. The Primos operating system had its initial roots in an older OS they called DOS, which had some legacy from another Prime OS, RTOS, which in turn was a port or re-implementation of Olert/4 and/or SAMTRAN, a Honeywell Controls OS funded by NASA. Beginning with the P400 processor, Prime systems were 16-bit data/32-bit address versions of the Honeywell Multics architecture (which was 18-bit data/36-bit address). -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 08:01:17 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE63@TEGNTSERVER> > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > > > change its name to? > > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > Processor Technology? > No. > > Are you selling a SOL for $100? > Sorry. If I had one right now, I might. I'm still not certain anyone has answered this, so I'll try again... COuld it be a Scelbi? -dq p.s. not looking for a Sol, have a working one and two unfinished motherboards, one likely to go up on E-Bay soon, although I may solicit it for trade here first. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 08:02:59 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE64@TEGNTSERVER> Steve- Any luck digging out that Prime stuff? -dq From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 08:19:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: For under 50$ yes!!!! As to the OS... Long list to follow...;) From DEC: RT-11 RSTS-11 RSX-11 (rare) Ultrix-11 Non-DEC Fuzzball TSX-11 (requires RT-11) FROM PUPS archives Unix from V5-->2.11 or later. To name just a few that were available for that machine. Many have Licenses for use but do check out PUPS as most of those are free. Allison On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Good Morning, Fellow Classicians... > > A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on > E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the > starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no > backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query > regarding those cards I have). > > It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo > appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking > of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape > drive. > > Here is what the seller has to say about it: > > > : This is a Digital Equipment Corp Micro PDP11/73 computer > : with a TS05 tape drive mounted in a rack. Also included is > : what I think is a hard disk unit mounted below the computer. > : The front panel of this unit says 'USDC CSS-800 Compact > : Storage System'. Also included is a VT320 amber video > : terminal. If you look at the photos below you will see that > : there is a large space in the middle where something is > : missing. I think that there were 2 hard disks mounted in this > : space, but they were gone when I got the equipment. I bought > : this stuff from the University of Louisville Medical School. > : This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the > : PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this > : is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please > : wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think > : the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do > : from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the > : front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test > : them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so > : it is sold AS-IS. > : > : > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > > Thanks for all replys, > -doug quebbeman > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 22 08:56:04 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: <14673.47604.204221.578791@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:02:12AM -0400 References: <14673.47604.204221.578791@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:02:12AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Interestingly, both the Cray J90 and the YMP-EL (and possibly other >models as well) have +- margin switches for their power regulators >accessible on their front panels. IIRC, the DEC KL10 model A did too (and a little meter to see how you're doing). I think I read somewhere that K.O. used to have a big thing about margin testing so I'll bet there are easily accessible switches for it in a lot of the older machines. John Wilson D Bit From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 09:16:14 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE66@TEGNTSERVER> Ooops, sorry, was supposed to be private... > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:03 AM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Yo > > > Steve- > > Any luck digging out that Prime stuff? > > -dq > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 22 10:18:01 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <39522E29.9EBE3C89@rain.org> Geoff Roberts wrote: > > I see your msgs in a stretched font. Quite different from all the > others. > > In the headers of your msg, we see:- > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined > > In the top toolbar when you are writing or replying to a msg. > It will be set to user-defined. > Set it to Western European (Windows) and it will revert to ISO-8859-1 > which seems to be straight ASCII. Okay, I just changed it from user-defined to Western. Is this message coming through okay? FWIW, I've been using Netscape for years with no problems that *I* am aware of :). From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Thu Jun 22 10:27:00 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: RE: Yo >> >> Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the >> disposition of their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on >> eBay", maybe it's offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to >> Stanford"...or ? > >Since my only family is my sister, I told her "Just think, one day all of >this will be yours". To which she replied "Great... Which dumpster should I >put it in?" > >Steve Robertson > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 10:44:15 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: Message-ID: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 10:10 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > Hi, > > It's not every time but at least very frequent when I read mail from you > OutlookExpress(or outlook distress ;)) changes fonts to a larger one. > My guess is you may be replying to a RTF or HTML message or have some odd > embedded controls. Cant see it here as from work the mailer is PINE. > > Maybe someday I'll replace OutlookExpress but for the time being it > mostly does what I want. No need. Go into Tools. Pick Options Pick Read Pick Fonts Ensure encoding is set to Western European (Windows) Set the font/size to your favourite. Click Set as Default. Click Ok Click International Settings. Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. That will display them in the default encoding method no matter what format the incoming msg uses. Works for me, it's a Microsoft product, so YMMV of course. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia, geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 22 10:51:17 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: Hi! [..] > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. Ciao, Freddy From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 22 11:29:53 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <007e01bfdbe6$daf9aca0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > Still wrong! It was not the NS* Horizon as the name change preceeds > it by not less than two years. Keep in mind I have the NS* MDS-A > Minifloppy I'd bought before the NS* in late 1976 and KFC had long > since been forgotten. Allison is, of course, right. BUT, because the hint said "... post-namechange...", they aren't wrong. BTW, I also have for sale a post-namechange machine from a company once known as "Thinker Toys". $20 with local pickup for machine plus printer plus terminal (missing keyboard). $30 for machine by itself. HINT: KFC and Thinker Toys were both in Berkeley, and moved south once they became successful. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Jun 22 11:29:08 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: ; from Meerwaldt@t-online.de on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:51:17PM +0200 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000622112908.Z4176@mrbill.net> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:51:17PM +0200, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote: > Hi! > [..] > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact > RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. > Ciao, > Freddy Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of UNIX... Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 11:38:22 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > No need. Go into Tools. > Pick Options [...] > Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and install something more useful that can send messages properly. > That will display them in the default encoding method no matter what format > the incoming msg uses. However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft rubbish, so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient to do anything other than read it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 22 11:40:27 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <000622124027.2620077a@trailing-edge.com> >On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:51:17PM +0200, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote: >> Hi! >> [..] >> > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? >> Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact >> RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. >> Ciao, >> Freddy > >Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? It isn't, but Mentec will soon (I hope) have a hobbyist licensing program for RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Watch the "Hobbyist licensing" link on their "PDP-11"/"legacy systems" webpage at http://www.mentec.com/ > One of the hardest things about collecting >PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of >UNIX... 2.11BSD is the newest version and getting a hobbyist license for it is now easier than ever. See http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ for the SCO license deal (now free). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 11:46:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote: > > > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > > Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact > RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. > > Ciao, > Freddy Ah, 4.xBSD is 32bit(VAX) as far as I know and PDP11 is 16 bit(NOTVAX). When did RT-11 become freeware? Last I knew it was available for use exclusively for the emulator. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 11:52:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> References: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <20000622165243.29321.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the > tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. Yeah, a diesel-powered dumpster with an automatic transmission. :-) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 11:59:51 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE68@TEGNTSERVER> > BTW, I also have for sale a post-namechange machine from a company once > known as "Thinker Toys". $20 with local pickup for machine plus printer > plus terminal (missing keyboard). $30 for machine by itself. > HINT: KFC and Thinker Toys were both in Berkeley, and moved > south once they became successful. That would be Morrow Designs... George should've kept the Thinker Toys thing, and put a hit out on the Tinker Toys lawyers. I am the proud owner of two Thinker Toys products, the Wunderbus, and the EconoRAM IV (hope that's the right model, this was one of those really EARLY dynamic RAM boards; the ceramic gold-topped versions of these chips worked fine, the but the plastic ones had trouble forgetting things when they got hit by cosmic rays). -dq From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 22 11:08:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. YEAH! And while you're at it, throw that shitty Intel box out the window and in the trash! DO IT NOW! You freaking losers! How dare you use any Microcschlock products in my presence! Dang dude, do you ever have anything useful to say? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 12:12:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft > rubbish, so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient > to do anything other than read it. Take a chill pill. I happen to run outlookdistress as I havent time to test several of the candidates. Nominally I post as clear text/ascii but sometime the originating mail is "other" and it's hard to control that. On the ohter hand I also use Pine Half the time... Allison From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Jun 22 12:13:31 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: VT100's and RX01 in Kansas City Message-ID: > In my wanderings I just came across 2 VT100's, one of which doesn't power > up the other I can't get to to test yet. I haven't found the keyboards. > I also came across a "rack mountable" RX01. Basically a single 8 inch > disk drive is just below on the left side of a 23 inch wide 3 inch high > controller box. If there is any interest they will probably take $5 for > the RX01 and $5 for both VT100's and I can arrange packing/shipping if you > pay for it. > VT100-AA case is yellowed with some scuffs. It seems to have both RS-232 > and 20ma connector on the back. RX01 has a 8 inch floppy diskette in it > labeled "VMS 4.7 boot floppy working copy". > > Mike > Wandering computer scrounger From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Jun 22 12:14:18 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > When did RT-11 become freeware? Last I knew it was available for use > exclusively for the emulator. The original poster was mistaken. RT-11 is not freeware, and currently the "freely available" RT-11 distributions are indeed only (legally) usable with the Supnik emulator. Mentec is apparently working on some type of "Hobbyist Licensing", but it isn't ready yet - a link for this appears on the Mentec home page, but currently, it does not go anywhere. --Pat. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 12:15:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE68@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I am the proud owner of two Thinker Toys products, the Wunderbus, and > the EconoRAM IV (hope that's the right model, this was one of those > really EARLY dynamic RAM boards; the ceramic gold-topped versions of > these chips worked fine, the but the plastic ones had trouble forgetting > things when they got hit by cosmic rays). It was the gold eutectic weld that was the source of alpha particles that were the concern at the time. The later problem was Dram timing problems and there were fixes. Allison From mrdos at swbell.net Thu Jun 22 12:36:10 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) Message-ID: <003f01bfdc70$5eddb820$d0893cd8@compaq> There is still a System/38 available in San Francisco. If anyone is interested, please contact Rbatist@aol.com . It works and comes with a tape drive and several disk drives. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 12:39:13 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE69@TEGNTSERVER> > > I am the proud owner of two Thinker Toys products, the Wunderbus, and > > the EconoRAM IV (hope that's the right model, this was one of those > > really EARLY dynamic RAM boards; the ceramic gold-topped versions of > > these chips worked fine, the but the plastic ones had trouble forgetting > > things when they got hit by cosmic rays). > > It was the gold eutectic weld that was the source of alpha particles > that were the concern at the time. The later problem was Dram timing > problems and there were fixes. Ah, I stand corrected... and that would explain why the system was always flaky with that board in, and stable without it (I was blaming the bus). So, knowing nothing about the half-life of the welding material, can you tell me, has the material in the welds decayed enough now that the board should operate in a more stable fashion? -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 12:32:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 22, 0 09:56:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 842 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/9491c359/attachment.ksh From mrdos at swbell.net Thu Jun 22 12:46:18 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Legal Question Message-ID: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a license is legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have any way of checking for one? What is required for running the OS? I really don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. Thanks, Owen From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 12:56:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000622124027.2620077a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622105503.00bd7220@208.226.86.10> At 12:40 PM 6/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >It isn't, but Mentec will soon (I hope) have a hobbyist licensing program for >RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Watch the "Hobbyist licensing" >link on their "PDP-11"/"legacy systems" webpage at > http://www.mentec.com/ > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com If they do this then the market for PDP-11's will go up by a large amount. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 12:58:58 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000622175858.30029.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It was the gold eutectic weld that was the source of alpha particles > that were the concern at the time. No. The weld was not a problem. The ceramic emitting alpha particles was a problem. This was solved by adding or changing the passivation layer on the top side of the die. It doesn't take much to stop alpha particles. The die and lead frame are thick enough that alpha particles from the ceramic on the bottom of the package don't affect the memory. However, alpha particles didn't start to be a problem for DRAM until the 64Kbit generation. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 13:03:11 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: References: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622110217.024aaef0@208.226.86.10> At 06:32 PM 6/22/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >I've never seen a PDP11 or PDP8 with a power supply margin test (although >IIRC, adjusting the PSU regulators to be slightly higher or lower than >+5V _is_ mentioned in some of the service manuals as a way to trace >intermittants). The PDP-5 has a big knob in the back to turn the power supply up or down and a whole procedure for finding weak transistors in the maintenance manual. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 13:03:34 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <003f01bfdc70$5eddb820$d0893cd8@compaq> (message from Owen Robertson on Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:36:10 -0500) References: <003f01bfdc70$5eddb820$d0893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <20000622180334.30095.qmail@brouhaha.com> Owen Robertson wrote: > There is still a System/38 available in San Francisco. If anyone is > interested, please contact Rbatist@aol.com . It works and comes with a tape > drive and several disk drives. I'm still trying to arrange to save it. Mike and I went up there once, and discovered that they have no loading dock. The System/38 is huge and very heavy. It would barely fit on the lift gate of the 15' truck, but it looked like the only way to get it into the truck would be to use a wooden ramp from their doorway (several steps up from the sidewalk) into the truck. That part looked feasible, but we didn't think we'd be able to unload it from the truck. I need to get more local people to help with the move. Any volunteers? I can't offer to pay people for their time, but I'd certainly be willing to buy beer & pizza. I hope to arrange to do it on a Saturday, but I haven't yet found out whether that works for the seller. Eric From sring at uslink.net Thu Jun 22 13:17:15 2000 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: Tapes Message-ID: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> Does anyone know where I can locate blank computer cassette tapes for the Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually too long. From: "Stephanie Ring" sring@uslink.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 22 13:22:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? (Sellam Ismail) References: Message-ID: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 22, Sellam Ismail wrote: > YEAH! And while you're at it, throw that shitty Intel box out the window > and in the trash! DO IT NOW! You freaking losers! How dare you use any > Microcschlock products in my presence! You have an Intel box? Eeew. -Dave McGuire From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 22 13:23:19 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:58 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:32:49PM +0100 References: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000622142319.A9011@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:32:49PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> IIRC, the DEC KL10 model A did too (and a little meter to see how you're >> doing). I think I read somewhere that K.O. used to have a big thing about >> margin testing so I'll bet there are easily accessible switches for it in >> a lot of the older machines. > >I've never seen a PDP11 or PDP8 with a power supply margin test Me neither, but I was just guessing, and when I said "older" I meant, like, pre-1970. I kind of think one of the Gordon Bell books talks about margin testing and K.O., like maybe that was his thing back when he was actually an engineer himself (i.e. 1950s?). But I haven't read it in a while so I'm probably remembering wrong. John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 13:38:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <20000622112908.Z4176@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Bill Bradford wrote: > Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting > PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of > UNIX... Well, as long as the machine comes with a complete version of the software installed, then there's no problem. The whole licensing issue is pure lunacy. Someone initially paid a vast quantity of money to Some Random Computer Manufacturer for the machine, then, got charged another large sum of money for the software - the OS - needed to use the machine. Both were products that have already been paid for. Let's say you bought one of those newfangled automobiles that's infested with lots of electronic circuitry, including computers with firmware. Now, let's say you sell the car. If that firmware was licensed like computer software, the person who bought the car from you wouldn't be able to use it without being bilked out of a licencing fee from the auto's manufacturer. What if books were treated like software? This is just a way of extorting money from people; it amounts to no more than legalized theft. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 13:40:27 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622180334.30095.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 22 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm still trying to arrange to save it. Mike and I went up there once, Good luck with this! > and discovered that they have no loading dock. The System/38 is huge > and very heavy. It would barely fit on the lift gate of the 15' truck, > but it looked like the only way to get it into the truck would be to [...] Why don't you disassemble it and then haul it away? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 13:46:22 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I can locate >blank computer cassette tapes for the >Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually >too long. > >From: "Stephanie Ring" >sring@uslink.net To long? Sure you waste a lot of tape, but any new audio tape is going to be in better shape than any old Computer Cassettes you might find. I aways used audio tapes with my VIC20, usually the absolute cheapest I could get my hands on. IIRC, I usually used something like 60 minute tapes. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 22 13:46:53 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <000622144653.262007c3@trailing-edge.com> >At 12:40 PM 6/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >>It isn't, but Mentec will soon (I hope) have a hobbyist licensing program for >>RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Watch the "Hobbyist licensing" >>link on their "PDP-11"/"legacy systems" webpage at >> http://www.mentec.com/ >> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com >If they do this then the market for PDP-11's will go up by a large amount. >--Chuck IMHO it's not a matter of "If" but "When". There are some pots remaining to be stirred but the brew is *almost* done. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 13:49:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: >All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me >wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or >RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a license is >legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have >any way of checking for one? What is required for running the OS? I really >don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. > >Thanks, >Owen You wouldn't have a license unless you managed to get the previous owners license transfered to you. Which among other things would require proof that they had a license. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 22 13:54:28 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) Message-ID: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Based on my experiences with System/36's, 8100's, and other IBM machinery.. the thing almost certainly has a welded steel frame. I took all the panels off and the dual 14" disks out of a 5360, and I'll be damned if I didn't only remove about 250lbs., tops. BTW, be CAREFUL picking up 5360's with a forklift, they are very unbalanced by the humongous transformer on the power supply end, my dad and I went to unload mine, and it started to try to take a dive off the forklift attachment on our tractor. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 22 12:53:51 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > You have an Intel box? Eeew. It's OK. It's running Linux. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 22 14:00:42 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Pico rant: I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer purchased software N users to users = N without more liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't own it at the time of sale. John A. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 22 14:07:02 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? (Sellam Ismail) References: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14674.25558.164293.297098@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 22, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. > > It's OK. It's running Linux. Ahh. *whew* -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 22 14:08:58 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes Message-ID: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo started back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they had to create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. This was called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when AT&T did start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even though Aegis or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better than UNIX, the AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed UNIX, and that became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo and killed basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 14:09:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE69@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > So, knowing nothing about the half-life of the welding material, > can you tell me, has the material in the welds decayed enough now > that the board should operate in a more stable fashion? > > -dq > It was the timing problem... the failure rate (soft) for the alpha particle thing was so low you'd see power hits and other gremlins first. S100 system were prone to bus noise (even with wonderbus) so where a card was installed could litterally mean fail/flakey/works for the same card! Bus termination schemes were used to help but the 22 slot bus was too long and a more modest 18 or 12 slot was always more reliable. Dram cards were by and large trouble as they were most sensitive to timing problems. I always ran static for testing and some systems for that reason. Allison From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Jun 22 14:11:48 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> from "Owen Robertson" at Jun 22, 2000 12:46:18 PM Message-ID: <200006221911.MAA22415@eskimo.com> > All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me > wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or > RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a license is > legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have > any way of checking for one? What is required for running the OS? I really > don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. The OS has no way of checking for one (unlike VMS). However, you might have trouble finding the OS without the license. You will also need to pay extra for the source code. (There may be an uncommented source code distribution which you can use to reassemble the OS but doesn't count as the licensed source.) I'm sure some of the PDP-11 experts know a lot more about this than I do. -- Derek From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:16:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I can locate >blank computer cassette tapes for the >Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually >too long. Look in the phone book under tapes duplicating. These places have everything down to 30 second tapes on THICK media, ok maybe 5 minute tapes, but should be ok. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 13:48:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: >I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the >tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. This is amusing I suppose, until the first list members start to die. The topic deserves serious discussion. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 14:15:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. > All my transistors say AMD, not intel. ;) Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 14:16:09 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6A@TEGNTSERVER> > Well, as long as the machine comes with a complete version of the > software installed, then there's no problem. The whole licensing > issue is pure lunacy. Someone initially paid a vast quantity of money > to Some Random Computer Manufacturer for the machine, then, got > charged another large sum of money for the software - the OS - needed > to use the machine. Both were products that have already been paid > for. Let's say you bought one of those newfangled automobiles that's > infested with lots of electronic circuitry, including computers with > firmware. Now, let's say you sell the car. If that firmware was > licensed like computer software, the person who bought the car from > you wouldn't be able to use it without being bilked out of a licencing > fee from the auto's manufacturer. What if books were treated like > software? This is just a way of extorting money from people; it > amounts to no more than legalized theft. Together, democracy and free enterprise constituted a severe paradigm shift for the robber barons, but eventually, they figured it out. So, if they're going to stand behind every tree on the highway, ready to exact from us a toll for any thing we want to do, then we have to figure out how to travel without using that highway, rendering their strong-arm tactics moot. -doug q From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:17:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? (Sellam Ismail) Message-ID: >On June 22, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> YEAH! And while you're at it, throw that shitty Intel box out the window >> and in the trash! DO IT NOW! You freaking losers! How dare you use any >> Microcschlock products in my presence! > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. Aren't all DEC boxes technically Intel now? All you PDP owners should be getting your Intel Inside stickers in the mail soon. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 22 14:22:05 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of Apollo's OS, or something else? On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo started > back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they had to > create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. This was > called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when AT&T did > start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even though Aegis > or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better than UNIX, the > AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed UNIX, and that > became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo and killed > basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 14:22:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: If you read the license of most software you will find that it says You don't own it and that "you" are licensed to use it. Cars are bought outright IE: they are property. Software for the most part is "rented" for lack of a better word. Allison On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Pico rant: > > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. > > John A. > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 22 14:23:47 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: 5360's can be buggers. We had one take a nose dive off a ramp. They are heavy, awkward beasts. I would not be surprised though if it powers up with few problems when we get around to trying it. They are built like tanks. On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo started > back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they had to > create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. This was > called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when AT&T did > start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even though Aegis > or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better than UNIX, the > AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed UNIX, and that > became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo and killed > basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:12:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622180334.30095.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 22, 0 06:03:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1014 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/ad75378c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:18:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> from "Stephanie Ring" at Jun 22, 0 01:17:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1374 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/9c696085/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 22 14:31:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com>; from John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:00:42PM -0400 References: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000622153125.A9176@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:00:42PM -0400, John Allain wrote: > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. Well, technically they didn't. You buy the *right* to use the software, and since that's not a tangible thing it's a bit hard to pin down how to transfer it. Most software companies aren't so snotty about taking advantage of that fact, but DEC went through a phase (in the early 80s) where they decided that you couldn't transfer software licenses at *all*, so now we're supposed to be grateful that they relented and agreed you could do it, if you had $300 and a bunch of documentation that probably never existed and certainly doesn't any more. I think it was supposed to work like the New Coke thing, threaten us with something so bad, that we won't complain (at least not loudly) when they drop back to something which is still not what the customers want. Microsoft has been jumping on the same bandwagon lately, unilaterally censoring eBay auctions for M$ software if there's any possibility, in Microsoft's opinion, that the seller doesn't own a transferable license for the software. John Wilson D Bit From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 14:33:27 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6C@TEGNTSERVER> > It was the timing problem... the failure rate (soft) for the alpha > particle thing was so low you'd see power hits and other gremlins > first. > > S100 system were prone to bus noise (even with wonderbus) so where a > card was installed could litterally mean fail/flakey/works for the same > card! Bus termination schemes were used to help but the 22 slot bus was > too long and a more modest 18 or 12 slot was always more reliable. > > Dram cards were by and large trouble as they were most sensitive to timing > problems. I always ran static for testing and some systems for that > reason. I never had the opportunity to work with a machine that was IEEE-696 compliant. I'm assuming you did (Danger Will Robinson!)... were compliant boards reliable? Do you know of any attempts to retrofit compliance onto existing S-100 designs? -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:26:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 22, 0 10:53:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/61af9889/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:35:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: Message-ID: >Pico rant: > > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. Just wait for http://www.macintouch.com/ucita.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:23:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >>>>> forklift attachment on our tractor. Now thats an image unwelcome to my brain. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 14:58:45 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6D@TEGNTSERVER> > If you read the license of most software you will find that it says You > don't own it and that "you" are licensed to use it. Cars are bought > outright IE: they are property. Software for the most part is "rented" > for lack of a better word. What we need to know, is who (what corporate representative) was the first person to capitulate to the robber barons by being willing to sign a software license that granted only the right to use said software. Once one corporation capitulated, the rest were bound to follow. We could make that person number one in the Computing Hall of Shame. Hell hath no flames hot enough for that person... -dq From elvey at hal.com Thu Jun 22 15:00:12 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006222000.NAA27075@civic.hal.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Does anyone know where I can locate > >blank computer cassette tapes for the > >Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually > >too long. > > > >From: "Stephanie Ring" > >sring@uslink.net > > To long? Sure you waste a lot of tape, but any new audio tape is going to > be in better shape than any old Computer Cassettes you might find. I aways > used audio tapes with my VIC20, usually the absolute cheapest I could get > my hands on. IIRC, I usually used something like 60 minute tapes. Hi You want to use the thickest tape you can. Many of the longer play tapes are thin enough to have print thru. Tapes for phone machines are often shorter. If it is a tape that has screws holding it together, you can always remove and splice the end to the hub. Many places have splicing kits. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:28:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 22, 0 12:17:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 328 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/27a62ec4/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jun 22 15:05:58 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes Message-ID: <20000622.150907.-465771.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" writes: > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of ^^^^^ Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From elvey at hal.com Thu Jun 22 15:13:49 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006222013.NAA27098@civic.hal.com> Mike Ford wrote: > >I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the > >tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. > > This is amusing I suppose, until the first list members start to die. The > topic deserves serious discussion. > Hi Mike He was serious. Make sure that you make it clear in your will that you consider the disposition of your collection a serious part of handling your estate. One might even include the threat of giving them the choice of getting it done right or all of the estate would go to charity ( including the money!! ). This often helps. Also, it is a good idea to choose an executor that you can trust to deal with things. You can do this before you die as well. It sounds like the sister would be a poor choice. Until the will's conditions are taken care of, it is as though you were still alive and it was your estate to do with as you please ( lawyers always make it sound like the heirs have some say but a will is a will). Dwight From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 22 16:01:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: OT: Tech Support Fun Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000622160148.0b4f9094@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >A woman called the Canon help desk with a problem with her printer. The tech asked her if she was "running it under Windows." The woman responded, "No, my desk is next to the door. But that's a good point. The man sitting in the cubicle next to me is under a window, and his is working fine." >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Tech Support: "OK Bob, let's press the control and escape keys at the same time. That brings up a task list in the middle of the screen. Now type the letter 'P' to bring up the Program Manager." >Customer: "I don't have a 'P'." >Tech Support: "On your keyboard, Bob." >Customer: "What do you mean?" >Tech Support: "'P' on your keyboard, Bob." >Customer: "I'm not going to do that!" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Overheard in a computer shop: >Customer: "I'd like a mouse mat, please." >Salesperson: "Certainly sir, we've got a large variety." >Customer: "But will they be compatible with my computer?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >I once received a fax with a note on the bottom to fax the document back to the sender when I was finished with it, because he needed to keep it. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer in computer shop: "Can you copy the Internet onto this disk for me?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >I work for a local ISP. Frequently we receive phone calls that start something like this: >Customer: "Hi. Is this the Internet?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer: "So that'll get me connected to the Internet, right?" >Tech Support: "Yeah." >Customer: "And that's the latest version of the Internet, right?" >Tech Support: "Uhh...uh...uh...yeah." >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Tech Support: "All right...now double-click on the File Manager icon." >Customer: "That's why I hate this Windows - because of the icons - I'm a Protestant, and I don't believe in icons." >Tech Support: "Well, that's just an industry term sir. I don't believe it was meant to -" Customer: "I don't care about any 'Industry Terms'. I don't believe in icons." >Tech Support: "Well...why don't you click on the 'little picture' of a filing cabinet...is 'little picture' OK?" >Customer: [click] >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer: "My computer crashed!" >Tech Support: "It crashed?" >Customer: "Yeah, it won't let me play my game." >Tech Support: "All right, hit Control-Alt-Delete to reboot." >Customer: "No, it didn't crash - it crashed." >Tech Support: "Huh?" >Customer: "I crashed my game. That's what I said before. I crashed my spaceship and now it doesn't work." >Tech Support: "Click on 'File,' then 'New Game.'" >Customer: [pause]: "Wow! How'd you learn how to do that?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Got a call from a woman said that her laser printer was having problems: the bottom half of her printed sheets were coming out blurry. It seemed strange that the printer was smearing only the bottom half. I walked her through the basics, then went over and printed out a test sheet. It printed fine. I asked her to print a sheet, so she sent a job to the printer. As the paper started coming out, she yanked it out and showed it to me. I told her to wait until the paper came out on its own. Problem solved. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >I had been doing Tech Support for Hewlett-Packard's DeskJet division for about a month when I had a customer call with a problem I just couldn't solve. She could not print yellow. All the other colors would print fine, which truly baffled me because the only true colors are cyan, magenta, and yellow. For instance, green is a combination of cyan and yellow, but green >printed fine. Every color of the rainbow printed fine except for yellow. I had the customer change ink cartridges. I had the customer delete and reinstall the drivers. Nothing worked. I asked my coworkers for help; they offered no new ideas. After over two hours of troubleshooting, I was about to tell the customer to send the printer in to us for repair when she asked >quietly, "Should I try printing on a piece of white paper instead of this yellow paper?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >A man attempting to set up his new printer called the printer's tech support number, complaining about the error message: "Can't find the printer." On the phone, the man said he even held the printer up in front of the screen, but the computer still couldn't find it. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >And another user was all confused about why the cursor always moved in the opposite direction from the movement of the mouse. She also complained that the buttons were difficult to depress. She was very embarrassed when we asked her to rotate the mouse so the tail pointed away from her. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer: "Hello? I'm trying to dial in. I installed the software okay, and it dialed fine. I could hear that. Then I could hear the two computers connecting. But then the sound all stopped, so I picked up the phone to see if they were still connected, and I got the message, 'No carrier,' on my screen. What's wrong?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >An unfailingly polite lady called to ask for help with a Windows installation that had gone terribly wrong. >Customer: "I brought my Windows disks from work to install them on my home computer." Training stresses that we are "not the Software Police," so I let the little act of piracy slide. >Tech Support: "Umm-hmm. What happened?" >Customer: "As I put each disk in it turns out they weren't initialized. >Tech Support: "Do you remember the message exactly, ma'am?" >Customer: (proudly) "I wrote it down. 'This is not a Macintosh disk. Would you like to initialize it?" >Tech Support: "Er, what happened next?" >Customer: "After they were initialized, all the disks appeared to be blank. And now I brought them back to work, and I can't read them in the A: drive; the PC wants to format them. And this is our only set of Windows disks for the whole office. Did I do something wrong?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >For a computer programming class, I sat directly across from someone, and our computers were facing away from each other. A few minutes into the class, she got up to leave the room. I reached between our computers and switched the inputs for the keyboards. She came back and started typing and immediately got a distressed look on her face. She called the tutor over and explained that no matter what she typed, nothing would happen. The tutor tried everything. By this time I was hiding behind my monitor and quaking red-faced. I typed, "Leave me alone! They both jumped back as this appeared on their screen. "What the..." the tutor said. I typed, "I said leave me alone!" The kid got real upset. "I didn't do anything to it, I swear!" It was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud. The conversation between them and HAL 2000 went on for an amazing five minutes. > >Me: "Don't touch me!" >Her: "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hit your keys that hard." >Me: "Who do you think you are anyway?!" Etc. > >Finally, I couldn't contain myself any longer, and fell out of my chair laughing. After they had realized what I had done, they both turned beet red. Funny, I never got more than a C- in that class. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >This guy calls in to complain that he gets an "Access Denied" message every time he logs in. It turned out he was typing his username and password in capital letters. >Tech Support: "Ok, let's try once more, but use lower case letters." >Customer: "Uh, I only have capital letters on my keyboard." >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Email from a friend: "CanYouFixTheSpaceBarOnMyKeyboard?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >My friend was on duty in the main lab on a quiet afternoon. He noticed a young woman sitting in front of one of the workstations with her arms crossed across her chest, staring at the screen. After about 15 minutes he noticed That she was still in the same position, only now she was impatiently tapping her foot. He asked if she needed help and she replied: "It's about time! I pressed the F1 button over twenty minutes ago!" > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 14:43:26 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: "Geoff Roberts" "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 23, 1:14) References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 23, 1:14, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Maybe someday I'll replace OutlookExpress but for the time being it > > mostly does what I want. > > No need. Go into Tools. > Pick Options > Pick Read > Pick Fonts > Ensure encoding is set to Western European (Windows) I'm not sure that's quite ideal. I don't have Outlook here to check, but if that's what you normally do, you might be interested to know that *your* headers show: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit which is ridiculous, because "Windows-1252" is a unique Microsoft non-standard character set (meant to be similar to ISO 8859-1, but with a unique symbol order), and it's also an 8-bit character set which can't be represented in 7 bits without using base64, uuencode, quoted-printable, or similar. I'm not complaining, merely informing :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 14:48:25 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Marvin "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 22, 8:18) References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <39522E29.9EBE3C89@rain.org> Message-ID: <10006222048.ZM22849@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22, 8:18, Marvin wrote: > Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > > I see your msgs in a stretched font. Quite different from all the > > others. > > > > In the headers of your msg, we see:- > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined > > > > In the top toolbar when you are writing or replying to a msg. > > It will be set to user-defined. > > Set it to Western European (Windows) and it will revert to ISO-8859-1 > > which seems to be straight ASCII. > > Okay, I just changed it from user-defined to Western. Is this message coming > through okay? FWIW, I've been using Netscape for years with no problems that > *I* am aware of :). Yes. The headers in Marvin's message said "charset=us-ascii". But you ought to realise that ISO-8859-x is not ASCII; the lower 128 characters are the same but the remaining 128 (top bit set) are foreign-language characters and additional symbols -- ASCII is a 7-bit character code while the ISO 8859 ones are all 8-bit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 15:06:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Legal Question In-Reply-To: Owen Robertson "Legal Question" (Jun 22, 12:46) References: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <10006222106.ZM23524@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22, 12:46, Owen Robertson wrote: > All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me > wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or > RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? Legally, strictly, yes. However, I've been told off the record by two senior DEC staff in the UK that if I acquire a machine with the OS and don't use it for commercial purposs, they would turn a blind eye. > but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have > any way of checking for one? Nope. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 15:02:59 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: "R. D. Davis" "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 22, 12:38) References: Message-ID: <10006222102.ZM23432@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22, 12:38, R. D. Davis wrote: > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. Well, much as I dislike Outlook (depressed or otherwise), it actually is capable of sending plain text. You just need to make sure it's set to generate plain text (not HTML, RTF, or multipart/mixed) in some reasonable character set, for new messages, AND override the use of HTML/RTF/whatnot when replying. Besides, there are plenty of other Windows mailers besides Outlook; it's not a reason to go off the deep end. > However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft > rubbish, so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient > to do anything other than read it. True, in fact the Merrill Lynch survey I saw on CNN a little earlier today showed that less than three-quarters of people using Windows use Microsoft email software. Since only about 2/3 of PCs (in the loosest sense) run Windows, that means only about half use Outlook etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 15:27:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6D@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 22, 2000 03:58:45 PM Message-ID: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> > > If you read the license of most software you will find that it says You > > don't own it and that "you" are licensed to use it. Cars are bought > > outright IE: they are property. Software for the most part is "rented" > > for lack of a better word. > > What we need to know, is who (what corporate representative) was the > first person to capitulate to the robber barons by being willing to sign > a software license that granted only the right to use said software. > > Once one corporation capitulated, the rest were bound to follow. > > We could make that person number one in the Computing Hall of Shame. > > Hell hath no flames hot enough for that person... > > -dq Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented it, or rented time on one. Kindly take your free software whine elsewhere. If you want to write software and give it away that's your business. If someone else wants to write software and sell right to use licenses that's their business. Personally I both sell and give away the software I write, depending on the program. Zane (who is sick and tired about people whining about non-free software) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 22 15:31:28 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > All you PDP owners should be getting your Intel Inside stickers in the mail > soon. I've got some extras. But the folks around me keep putting them on vacuum bell jars, air compressor tanks, toilets, etc. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 15:32:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. > > > > It's OK. It's running Linux. > > One of _my_ Intel boxen runs ISIS..... Good point I have two running CPM-80! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 15:36:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6C@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > > I never had the opportunity to work with a machine that was IEEE-696 > compliant. I'm assuming you did (Danger Will Robinson!)... were compliant > boards reliable? Do you know of any attempts to retrofit compliance onto > existing S-100 designs? > > -dq lessee... yes, yes! I've worked with 696 complient, no that didn't completely help the bus noise problem. bus termination could be fitted to any bus and it helped. Compupro and others had backplanes that were terminated and much better but it's only part of a total solution. FYI: there is not less than 4 distinct varients of S100 and they are mostly compatable...sorta. It tended to evolve over time with 696 beinng mostly after the fact. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 15:57:54 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Licensed Software (was RE: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622135409.00d8e240@208.226.86.10> Look, if it were a simple issue it wouldn't hang around. It isn't. Generally, if your only experience with software is as an end user you won't understand the issue. There are lots of comparisons (generally involving real property and intellectual property) that make good jokes but lousy talking points. The bottom line is that it is up to the person who creates the software to decide what they want to allow. --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 16:00:45 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Tech Support Fun Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6E@TEGNTSERVER> > >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS Ok, true story. Ten plus years ago, in what so far was my last position as a full-time programmer, we had a customer who required that we be able to update their system remotely. The vendor who had failed to deliver their materials handling software on time was using Carbon Copy to handle that update & support function. So, suddenly, we needed to get a copy of Carbon Copy. I wasn't in the loop on that, all I knew was that the boss said I'd be getting this package in the mail, and to install it on the PS/2 Model ?? (one of the desktop MCA machines) that had the modem in it. A few days later, the package arrived. As you might expect, they did not go out and buy a new copy. Upon opening the package, I stared for some time at the first page, trying to imagine how it had come to pass that I was seeing what I was seeing. Apparantly, whoever (at the customer cite) had possesion of the Carbon Copy package, delegated the task to someone who was not quite up to it, but who did their best. I tried to imagine the conversation that accompanied the assignment; without a doubt, the manager handed the manual and diskette to the delegate, and said "and be sure to copy the disk." Because I was staring at a photocopy of a floppy disk. Oh, and page two was a photocopy of the backside of the disk, so at least the delegate in question was complete. TRUE STORY! regards, doug quebbeman From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 22 16:02:44 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <20000622.150907.-465771.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: Yes, I expect it is. It's the only Unix portable I've seen. Very blue, very heavy. > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > writes: > > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of > ^^^^^ > Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's > and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. > > JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? > > I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was > marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. > > > Jeff > > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 22 16:02:20 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501bfdc8d$282bc5c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > All you PDP owners should be getting your Intel Inside stickers in the mail > soon. I hope everyone got a chance to see this at some point in their lifetime: http://www.pixhost.com/pixm/mfrieders/h11-name-plates.jpg It essentially a "Digital Inside" nameplate. No Kidding! Its from a sale of a DEC-Heath-H16 on eBay 3 weeks ago. (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=347019265) John A. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 16:12:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Software Licensing (Was: RE: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to t he Herd?) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6F@TEGNTSERVER> > Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any > understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look > at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you > don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented > it, or rented time on one. I have owned a computer continuously since 1976, when I built a SOL (and I helped finish building an IMSAI the next year that was botched by a physics professor). Of the dozen or so computers I own, two are Windows boxen. My physician told me to stop reading the licences, or I'd have a stroke. The first computer I used was a CDC6500 running DualMACE at Purdue in 1974. I checked- Purdue OWNED the computer, they did not RENT it. >From there I went to a CDC6600 running Kronos 2.1 at Indiana University; I had a computer account for each of my classes, and one given me for donating my services as s student consultant. Additionally, I PAID $$$ for a commercial account so that I could print large-format lineprinter posters and sell them. > Kindly take your free software whine elsewhere. If you want to write > software and give it away that's your business. If someone else wants to > write software and sell right to use licenses that's their business. > Personally I both sell and give away the software I write, depending on the > program. I wrote nothing stating that I was looking for free software. How is it that you take not wanting to be ripped of to mean that I want something for free? The problem isn't that I don't understand the computer industry, it's that the computer industry has been taken over by robber barons. It happened during the 1980s; I recall it distinctly. Dang, I know I'm a prima donna, but if all the prima donnas stay off this list, I think it will get might darned quiet. respectfully submitted, -doug quebbeman From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 16:17:25 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:59 2005 Subject: Apollo (was Re: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes) In-Reply-To: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622135819.00d89100@208.226.86.10> At 01:08 PM 6/22/00 -0600, Will wrote: >Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo >started back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they >had to create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. >This was called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when >AT&T did start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even >though Aegis or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better >than UNIX, the AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed >UNIX, and that became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo >and killed basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). Sorry but this is not very close to what actually occurred at all. I worked at Sun (the guys that killed Apollo) from 1986 to 1995 and for part of that time was involved with a group that picked apart Apollo in order to facilitate its demise. Apollo effectively invented the workstation. (yes there were others, PERQs etc not withstanding) but for the mass market Apollo was really it. DEC did their part with the VAXStations, and Sun did its thing with its workstations. Aegis was Apollo's home grown, everything is an object, all written in PASCAL, operating system. One of its chief architects, Paul Leach is over at Microsoft now. It had a lot of features that were waayy before their time, like memory spanning the network and disks that spanned the network etc. Apollo made at least three really dumb decisions: 1) Invent an OS 2) Use Token Ring as their network topology 3) Staying proprietary and ignoring UNIX Apollo had some impressive design wins, the most notable was Mentor Graphics, however as the Sun workstations began catching on they were unable to deal with them. Apollo also had the tendency to "implement from spec" rather than pay any licensing. This attitude got them in trouble because when UNIX became more dominant their response was to implement the POSIX spec rather than license UNIX. This never worked quite right (similarly the DEC POSIX package for VMS was never truly as useful as "real" unix libraries) Their first go at a UNIX compatible OS was DOMAIN. (Distributed Object Memory Accessible Integrated Network (or some such sillynes) anyway then the bit the bullet and licensed UNIX but by then they were where SGI is now, effectively the walking dead. HP bought them and for a brief time was once again the leading supplier of workstations only to lose that title again to Sun. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 22 15:16:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. You didn't own it, you were just licensing it. Read the fine print. Sure it sucks, but you can either abide by it or scoff at it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 16:22:56 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Prime 2850 for Sale on E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE70@TEGNTSERVER> A complete Prime 2850 system is for sale on E-Bay, starting at one dollar. Reserve price in effect, amount (as always) unknown. Here's a shortcut to the beast: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=364711731 -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 15:42:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: OT: Tech Support Fun In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000622160148.0b4f9094@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 22, 0 04:01:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2619 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/2c63c5f8/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 16:39:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Software Licensing (Was: RE: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to t In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6F@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 22, 2000 05:12:41 PM Message-ID: <200006222139.OAA03321@shell1.aracnet.com> > I wrote nothing stating that I was looking for free software. How is it > that you take not wanting to be ripped of to mean that I want something > for free? OK, maybe I misread the message, but that was basically how I read it. I'm getting so sick of all the freesoftware BS that's taken over Linux that it isn't funny. That seemed to be where you were coming from. > The problem isn't that I don't understand the computer industry, it's > that the computer industry has been taken over by robber barons. It > happened during the 1980s; I recall it distinctly. Well, basically one Robber Baron, aka BG. > Dang, I know I'm a prima donna, but if all the prima donnas stay off > this list, I think it will get might darned quiet. > > respectfully submitted, > -doug quebbeman This list quiet? HAH! Never happen. Zane From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 22 16:17:46 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <20000622112908.Z4176@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Hi! > > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > > Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact > > RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. > > Ciao, > > Freddy > > Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it freely accessible. > PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of > UNIX... Hmmm... Then you should try the PUPS archive I think it is called. You get a license for it for free. Ciao, Freddy From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 16:51:30 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Based on my experiences with System/36's, 8100's, and other IBM machinery.. > the thing almost certainly has a welded steel frame. I took all the panels Hmmm, so even if it's made lighter, it's still going to be rather bulky. I just remembered how large some system 36s are. > off and the dual 14" disks out of a 5360, and I'll be damned if I didn't > only remove about 250lbs., tops. BTW, be CAREFUL picking up 5360's with a Wouldn't be be lighter with the boards, power supply, etc. removed? ...ok, well, removing the heavy power supply in pieces, that is. > forklift, they are very unbalanced by the humongous transformer on the power How large is this transformer? I'm guessing that it must be much larger, and heavier, than the ones in my 11/34, 11/44, etc. and possibly not easy to extract if the frame is welded together. > supply end, my dad and I went to unload mine, and it started to try to take > a dive off the forklift attachment on our tractor. :-( There must be a better solution... although that did sound like a very good idea. Perhaps it will help if you try strapping the next one you collect onto the forklift. :-) Well, there's always the attachment used to pick up bales of hay... it probably shouldn't slip off that once you spear the S/36 with it. Ok, just kidding, I'm not into computer demolition! ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Thu Jun 22 17:04:13 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <015001bfdc95$d41f92a0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you expect to have your collection survive you? Or don't you care about it? The main point was that there will allways (I hope) be other collectors willing to take on some else's collection there can even be a public distribution/sale or other for people interested. The thing I'm worried about is about my stuff ending in the trash (160 or so machines with peripherals and documentation) and I've specifically told my wife that if I die she should post a note on this very list and ask for help in disposing of it. She does consider my collection as a pile of junk but she also knows that this is not the opinion of everyone. Actually I am thinking of adding something to that nature in my will. I allways tink that I have time to think about it (I'm 34) but you never know... If you worry and value the conservation of your machines you should take the same dispositions and make sure that none is lost. Francois > This is amusing I suppose, until the first list members start to die. The > topic deserves serious discussion. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 16:40:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 22, 0 01:27:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/e3f71213/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 17:13:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: from "Frederik Meerwaldt" at Jun 22, 2000 11:17:46 PM Message-ID: <200006222213.PAA08130@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting > > Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I > asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it freely > accessible. > > Ciao, > Freddy NO. RT-11 is most definitly NOT FREEWARE!!! Read the *License* that is with the versions of RT-11 that you will find out on the net! You will learn that it is available with the following restrictions: 1. Only for use with Bob Supnik's emulator (actualy DEC owned emulators)! 2. Only V5.3 and earlier! 3. Only for Hobbyist use! AGAIN RT-11 IS NOT FREEWARE!!! Furthermore, claiming such could damage efforts to get a hobbyist license in place that will allow hobbyists to run RT-11 on thier hardware. Note, the existing Hobbyist License, which as I've stated can only be used with Bob Supnik's emulator, also covers some of the other OS's. It also covers layered products. In fact here is the license. READ IT!!! Zane LICENSE AGREEMENT This Agreement, dated ________________, is entered into by Mentec Inc., a Massachusetts Company, located at 55 Technology Drive, Lowell, MA 01851, U.S.A. (MENTEC), and _____________________________________________ having a residence at __________________________________________________________ (CUSTOMER). Whereas, MENTEC owns the rights to the following PDP-11 Operating Systems and associated layered products (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior) (SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY) and is prepared to grant a non-exclusive license to use such SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY for personal, non-commercial purposes; Whereas, CUSTOMER desires to enter into a License Agreement which will allow CUSTOMER to use such software technology at his or her residence for personal, non-commercial purposes; MENTEC and CUSTOMER agree as follows: 1 DEFINITIONS SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY shall mean the binary versions of the PDP-11 Operating Systems (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior), and associated utilities and layered products that run on PDP-11 computers. MENTEC'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS shall mean MENTEC's patent, copyright and trade secret rights in its SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY. EMULATOR shall mean software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation that emulates the operation of a PDP-11 processor and allows PDP-11 programs and operating systems to run on non-PDP-11 systems. 2 LICENSE GRANT MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in conjunction with the EMULATOR. 3 TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER AND ACCEPTANCE 3.1 CUSTOMER is responsible for obtaining copies of SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY and accepts the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY "AS IS". 3.2 MENTEC is under no obligation to supply SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY, documentation, error corrections or updates to the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY if or when they become available, or to provide training, support or consulting for the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY. 4 WARRANTY DISCLAIMER/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MENTEC DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO ANY SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY LICENSED TO CUSTOMER HEREUNDER, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL MENTEC BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE OR DATA, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE, INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY INFRINGEMENT OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF ANY SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY LICENSED HEREUNDER. 5 INDEMNITY CUSTOMER will hold MENTEC harmless against all liabilities, demands, damages, expenses, or losses arising out of use by CUSTOMER of SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY or information furnished under this Agreement. 6 TERM AND TERMINATION 6.1 This Agreement shall be effective until otherwise terminated. Either party may terminate this Agreement at any time upon 30 days written notice. 6.2 If CUSTOMER shall fail to perform or observe any of the terms and conditions to be performed or observed by it under this Agreement, MENTEC may in its sole discretion thereafter elect to terminate this Agreement, and this Agreement and all the obligations owed and rights granted herein to CUSTOMER shall immediately terminate. 6.3 The parties agree that the termination of this Agreement shall not release either party from any other liability which shall have accrued to the other party at the time such termination becomes effective, nor affect in any manner the survival of any right, duty or obligation of either party. 6.4 In the event of any termination of this Agreement for any reason, CUSTOMER shall delete all original and all whole or partial copies and derivatives of the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY from his or her computer system. CUSTOMER further shall cease to use and distribute the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY in all forms immediately upon the date of termination. 7 GENERAL TERMS 7.1 This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 7.2 This Agreement imposes personal obligations on CUSTOMER. CUSTOMER shall not assign any rights under this Agreement not specifically transferable by its terms without the written consent of MENTEC. 7.3 The SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY obtained under this Agreement may be subject to US and other government export control regulations. CUSTOMER assures that it will comply with these regulations whenever it exports or re-exports a controlled product or technical data obtained from MENTEC or any product produced directly from the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY. 7.4 The waiver of a breach hereunder may be effected only by a writing signed by the waiving party and shall not constitute a waiver of any other breach. 7.5 CUSTOMER acknowledges that he has read this Agreement, understands it and agrees to be bound by its terms and further agrees that it is the complete and exclusive statement of the Agreement between the parties which supersedes all communications and understanding between the parties relating to the subject matter of this Agreement. From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 22 17:16:01 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: OT: Tech Support Fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002d01bfdc97$7311c4e0$350810ac@chipware.com> Not exactly tech support but... When I was an intern at the Social Security Administration, we had an evening "operator" who was responsible for doing database dumps to 9 track tape from a Wang VS100 system. I'm not sure whether he had actually managed to graduate from high school or not... Anyway, the tape drive was semi-autoloading with a permanently attached take-up reel. Each dump was to be done to new tapes, straight from the box. One morning, I come in to find 6 tall gray plastic trash cans full of tangles of loose mag tape. Apparently, the last shipment of tapes we got didn't have end markers on them. The tape wound completely onto the take-up reel, error comes up on the console, he goes over, can't figure out how to get it threaded back onto the supply reel so he just pulls it off the take-up reel into a trash can. He did this to 20 tapes before he finally gave up. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 22 17:15:45 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Tapes Message-ID: <013001bfdc97$6991d2c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 22, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: Re: Tapes > >Too long? Sure you waste a lot of tape, but any new audio tape is going to >be in better shape than any old Computer Cassettes you might find. I aways >used audio tapes with my VIC20, usually the absolute cheapest I could get >my hands on. IIRC, I usually used something like 60 minute tapes. > The shorter the tape length, the better. Modern extended-play tapes use a thinner nylon tape (to fit more tape in the standard cassette), which is more prone to stretching and breaking with repeated rewind/play cycles. Some older answering machines used very short standard cassettes, I'd estimate about C10 length. If you can find a store that still sells those (even a liquidator selling off those awful novelty "celebrity answering machine messages") they might be suitable. They would also be newer than the 15+ year old computer cassette tapes. Another option would be to shop for a cheap disk drive for your system. In my experience old 5.25" floppies in good condition are much easier to find than cassettes. Regards, Mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 17:24:24 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000622222424.1732.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > Aren't all DEC boxes technically Intel now? > No. Compaq, surely? A reference, I think, to Intel making Alpha chips under contract to Compaq. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 17:26:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000622222630.1768.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane replied to Allison: > Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any > understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look > at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you > don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented > it, or rented time on one. And in the days before you rented the software for the mainframe from the vendor, you got the software for FREE from the vendor. Allison correctly pointed out that before some point these damn software licenses didn't exist. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 17:46:33 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <20000622222630.1768.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 22, 2000 10:26:30 PM Message-ID: <200006222246.PAA14633@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Zane replied to Allison: > > Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any > > understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look > > at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you > > don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented > > it, or rented time on one. > > And in the days before you rented the software for the mainframe from the > vendor, you got the software for FREE from the vendor. Allison correctly > pointed out that before some point these damn software licenses didn't > exist. > Except I wasn't replying to Allison. I know she knows what's going on :^) Zane From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 22 17:46:41 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Software licenses and transfers] > > > Kindly take your free software whine elsewhere. If you want to write > > software and give it away that's your business. If someone else wants to > > This has _NOTHING_ to do with free software. > > Nobody is denying %computer-company's right to be paid for their > software. And for them to charge what the heck they like for their > software. Or that it should be illegal to make copies of that software > (other than for backups, etc) > > But if I go out and buy a book, or a video tape of a movie or a music CD > or similar products, well, no I can't legally make copies of them. That's > reasonable enough. But if I decide I no longer want that book/movie/CD > then I can give it to my friend, I can sell it second-hand, etc. > > If I _rent_ a movie from the local video shop then I have it for a > limited time that's agreed before I buy it. And obviously I can't pass it > on to anyone else. > > Software licenses, though, are often like neither of those. It appears > that I pay a one-off fee to %computer-company which lets _me_ use that > software for as long as I want, but if I no longer want it, I can't > give/sell it to anyone else (note : I am assuming here that I wouldn't be > keeping a copy myself if I did this). This, I think, is the point that > most people have a problem with. And to thicken the plot a bit further, how about software that came bundled with the machine, and was not specifically purchased by the owner? The OEM can give it away as an inducement to purchase his machine, but the purchaser cannot? Please!!! - don > It seems a little silly that if somebody no longer wants their PDP11 + > software, they can give away the hardware but the new owner can't run the > software, even though the previous owner could have goen on running the > machine if he'd wanted to > > > write software and sell right to use licenses that's their business. > > It is theire business, but it doesn't mean I have to like it! > > -tony > > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 22 17:49:11 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Prime 2850 for Sale on E-Bay References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE70@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <395297E7.8E40E41@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > A complete Prime 2850 system is for sale on E-Bay, > starting at one dollar. Reserve price in effect, > amount (as always) unknown. And, as always, on the other side of the country *sighs* -ck -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 18:15:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Prime 2850 for Sale on E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE71@TEGNTSERVER> > A complete Prime 2850 system is for sale on E-Bay, > starting at one dollar. Reserve price in effect, > amount (as always) unknown. > > Here's a shortcut to the beast: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=364711731 > > -dq BTW, if you go there, look at tge picture carefully... there is what appears to be a 1200 ft reel of tape in a tape seal either lying on the floor under the 2850, or, God forbid, holding up the 2850 in lieu of a missing caster. Probably a Primos release tape. :-( From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Jun 22 18:19:06 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <39529EEA.B851400C@idirect.com> >Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on > E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the > starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no > backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query > regarding those cards I have). Jerome Fine replies: Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping, you have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else. BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And bring some tools so that you can separate the components. You will find it much easier if you only need to lift one item at a time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape drive alone can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually handle that easily. > It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo > appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking > of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape > drive. If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will be a great find IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially if you need it. > [Snip] > : This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the > : PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this > : is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please > : wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think > : the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do > : from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the > : front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test > : them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so > : it is sold AS-IS. This part is a bit confusing. Normally, after the "...7 8 9", the system says if I remember it correctly: "Starting system", but that can be modified using the boot options on the 11/73 CPU board - which must be a quad M8190 based on the display. If the CPU board works, it is worth $ US 5 just by itself. > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? I think that Allison covered the ground. If you need help with RT-11, there are a lot of us here. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jun 22 18:20:35 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Local Computer Rescue Needed Message-ID: <028e01bfdca0$78bb92a0$78701fd1@default> I got a call the other evening from a person wanting unload a number computers here in St. Paul, Here's his list - C64 no monitor with it - 2- TI's 99/4 black ones - Tandy color computer - TRS80 model 3 - 2- Mac Classic's - Apple IIgs with monitor and KB If anyone here in the Twincities wants some of this please email me and I will get you his email address. John Keys From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 22 19:01:09 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <200006150335.UAA18492@eskimo.com> Message-ID: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. I've started to make copies of these HP150 disks, and since I have a minute, I was wondering why my WinPC won't recognize these disks. What I've been doing to get around this problem is to copy each disk to the HD on my 150, and then copy the new files from the 150 to a blank 720k disk, which my Pentium system can see but this is really tedious. What's happening is that my Pentium system doesn't recognize the format of these old SS 3.5 disks, even though they are formatted with MSDOS (FAT 12 I think.) My Pentium will see the 720k disks that I format on the HP but not the old SS disks. Does anyone know why? Are the old disks copy protected? Or is because they're single sided? I'm curious because I would like to find a better way to copy these disks. Thanks Ernest From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 17:59:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <003401bfdc9d$a5609650$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Zane replied to Allison: >> Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any >> understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look >> at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you >> don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented >> it, or rented time on one. I didn't write that but I essentially agree. Consider this you buy a book, you own it to dispose of how you wish (sell, give or burn). You don't buy a license to read it or X many friends to read it. It is property. The copyright means you can't make copies of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell or give away without expressed permission. Software is going the route of, you pay for the media, manuals and support(optional) and also for rights to use under specified conditions as a CONTRACT. There lies the difference. the manuals are property (usually) but the software is provided under some stipulation (even freeware!) regarding it's use. >vendor, you got the software for FREE from the vendor. Allison correctly >pointed out that before some point these damn software licenses didn't >exist. The idea of XYZ Co OWNING the software (copyrighted) is quite old and may preceed the 1960s! At one time computers were only rented. DEC was one of the first to alter that by selling machines outright. Allison From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Jun 22 19:31:41 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Cheap parts available for AT&T 6300, AT&T 6300 monitor Message-ID: <000901bfdcaa$66d5c560$c1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Wakeup call! Haven't had any wanting the whole system or the monitor. It's parts time! Does anyone need any spares for their AT&T 6300? First the pictures, then the story: http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300front.jpg http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300rear.jpg I stopped in the local Hidden Treasures (actual name) store a couple of weeks ago and noticed this on the shelf, minus keyboard. I've been a regular visitor there for the last several years, and when I pointed out to Terry, the new manager, that this system was kinda useless without the AT&T keyboard, he told me to just take it, as in free, because it was probably going to end up in the dumpster anyway since no one seemed interested in it and this would save him the effort. The power supply fan runs, and little else. No cursor, no boot, no drive activity other than it initializing, no nothing, although the AT&T monitor appears OK since when I turn off the system I get green all over and retrace lines as the power collapses. Same if I unplug the monitor when the system is powered up. The monitor is powered from the 6300 and has a jumper from the PS to the video board, standard 6300. Here's the parts available: AT&T monitor, no screen burn, nice, cord storage in swivel base. AT&T 6300, made in Italy: PC1050 motherboard, markings of 0091-0-5-00 REV P4, AT&T 227692 T 10 CPU3 9/84, BIOS REV 1.21, FCC DVR7NICPU3; 8086-2 CPU, memory chips are MOSTEK MK4564-N-15; OLIVETTI Video PCB, full length, markings of CRT 313M; OLIVETTI Bus converter; 5.25" floppy drive; power supply; etc. This system is in very good to excellent condition. The computer is dusty inside, but even the felt feet are still on it. The CRT case is not yellowed. The story I got was that an elderly lady had donated it to the store. Cost is only 1.2 x shipping (cheapest way, unless specified otherwise)for whatever assemblies you want from it. Please email me off list and let me know what you need. FCFS I'm offering this to the list because I have enough going on and enough systems to restore to keep me busy for the next 10 years. Yes, I can probably find a keyboard and can also likely fix it, but I don't see anything wrong with some systems ending up as parts donors for others. I'll post to the list on the status of this as necessary. For shipping purposes, my zip is 15301. Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 22 20:00:54 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: your email address at hotmail References: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <002401bfdcaf$2d337dc0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've gotten a couple of emails bounced from hotmail. Could you send me a list of useable email addresses, so I can get your auction info to you promptly. Have you gotten in touch with the guy who's got your manuals? regards, Dick From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 20:14:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <003401bfdc9d$a5609650$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622175105.00c094e0@208.226.86.10> At 06:59 PM 6/22/00 -0400, Allison wrote: >Consider this you buy a book, you own it to dispose of how you wish >(sell, give or burn). You don't buy a license to read it or X many friends >to read it. It is property. Sigh. Allison has this part of it wrong, and it is a common problem. The book *is* the license. The contents (words etc) are licensed to the particular bits of paper and cover that you are holding in your hand. When you transfer the paper, the words go with it. You are forbidden from copying the words off the paper and putting them on to some other piece of paper. What you *own* in the book case is some newsprint, some wax, and some binder thread *and that is all*. If you *MUST* use the book analogy, (and it has already appeared twice now), understand how it would be implemented in computers: You license the software and it is licensed (bound) to your CPU. You own the CPU and may dispose of it how you wish, however if you give it away or burn it or throw it away, the software goes with it! Intel tried to make this model possible with their serial number scheme but the market rejected it. So software, unlike books, is licensed to _people_. (or corporations) because people and corporations like to be able to change their CPU and not bother with relicensing their software. If you throw away the corporation then the license gets thrown away too, just like if you had thrown away the book. > The copyright means you can't make copies >of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell >or give away without expressed permission. Again, this isn't quite correct. The rights to make copies of a "work" initially rest with the creator of that work. The creator (author what have you) can then choose to grant limited subsets of those rights (or not) to other people. As an author I am the copyright holder, I can assign some or all of those rights to a "publisher" who is allowed to make copies of my work, provided they send me a fee. *EVERYTHING* works this way, everything from books to software to music to DVDs and to ill fated Divx disks. > Software is going the >route of, you pay for the media, manuals and support(optional) and also >for rights to use under specified conditions as a CONTRACT. There >lies the difference. the manuals are property (usually) but the software is >provided under some stipulation (even freeware!) regarding it's use. Manuals still have copyrights, you cannot make copies of them without permission. This is particularly true of manuals that are distributed as PDF files. Generally you only have the write to print one copy for you own personal use! What most people are really upset about (even if they don't understand how intellectual property works) is the *MARGIN* on software. Typically a paperback book has a small margin (the physical manufacturing costs say 25% of the price and the rest is the margin) whereas a software CD costs perhaps 2% of the price or less. Book authors have traditionally sold the rights to publish their works (create copies) in paper form, without stipulating a transfer fee when the book changes owners. They did that not because they were generous, but because there wasn't any way they could figure out how to do it. (The e-book guys can identify change of ownership and guess what, you can't give your ebook to another person without them having to rebuy the book!) Just because you have a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" it only gives you the right to read it, not aloud at some gathering, or to put it on as a school play. Anyway, I don't mean to pick on anyone, it is not unusual for people to believe that by buying a record they somehow "own" the music that is on that record (or CD), they don't. They have only secured the right to listen to it as often as they would like without additional payments to the author. For some really interesting insight into just how intellectual property works, check out the Napster and MP3 cases that have a lot of their material posted on various web sites. --Chuck From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 20:14:11 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <200006222213.PAA08130@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > NO. RT-11 is most definitly NOT FREEWARE!!! Read the *License* that is > with the versions of RT-11 that you will find out on the net! You will > learn that it is available with the following restrictions: > > 1. Only for use with Bob Supnik's emulator (actualy DEC owned > emulators)! This is not a problem. One just has to make sure that one has a system in one's collection running Bob Subnik's emulator attached to one's real PDP-11s. Have the one with the emulator monitoring something on the real PDP-11 systems, or somesuch, then, you ARE using the versions of RT-11 on the real PDP-11s with Bob Supnik's emulator. :-) :-) :-) > AGAIN RT-11 IS NOT FREEWARE!!! Furthermore, claiming such could damage > efforts to get a hobbyist license in place that will allow hobbyists to run > RT-11 on thier hardware. Ok, let's not make a big deal out of people using RT-11 on their systems. If they don't have a copy, someone will probably clone them a copy. No big deal, and DEC didn't care. I was actually told, by someone in customer service at DEC, to go ahead and use it and not worry about the license, a few years back, and, when a very pleasant chap from DEC field service came to my house to investigate a melted mains plug, no questions were asked. > Note, the existing Hobbyist License, which as I've stated can only be used > with Bob Supnik's emulator, also covers some of the other OS's. It also > covers layered products. > MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free > license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy the > SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in > conjunction with the EMULATOR. There, _in conjunction with the EMULATOR_ - it doesn't say to only use it with the emulator, but in conjunction with the emulator. Also, that bit about the license being revocable; that's probably as binding as a contract of ashesion. Let's say you spend a huge amount of time on writing some software to control various things around your house that runs under RT-11; you most likely have a right to continue using your software running under RT-11. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jun 22 20:05:31 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Arium, UNIX, and other strange things. . . Message-ID: <20000622.201856.-3896179.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:02:44 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" writes: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > Yes, I expect it is. It's the only Unix portable I've seen. Very > blue, very heavy. Well you know, there a bunch of odd coincidences that revolve around Arium, American Automation (now American Arium), the Regulus OS, and the SS-50 bus (of all things). It goes like this: American Automation was a maker of ICE's and development stations in the early 1980's. One of their products was called the EZPro-- it was a general development system that could be equipped with a variety of ICE's (I own a processor unit; I never located the 68000 ICE that came with it originally). Anyways, The EZPro was based on the 6802 CPU, and it used the SS=50 bus! It is the only piece of test/development equipment I have ever seen or heard that used this bus. Around 1985, I contacted these guys, and got a full set of prints for my system, and a couple of 8" floppies with the OS, along with the source for the ROMs. They told me that most of their EZ-Pro hardware had been *thrown out* a few *weeks* earlier, that I could have had it, had I asked. Ever seen a grown man cry? They showed me their new product, I can't remember the name, but they mentioned that it still used the ss-50 bus. I remember now that it looked very similar to a product made by . . . Smoke Signal Broadcasting (SSB), which made a 68000 based product called the VAR. This thing ran Regulus, and was supposed to be very good for real-time processing. SSB, if anyone remembers, used to make a very nice line of SS-50 machines (The Chieftain). Fast foreward about ten years, and Arium merges with American Automation to become American Arium. I wonder if Arium based their earlier products on the SSB VAR. Spooky, huh? > > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > > writes: > > > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a > version of > > ^^^^^ > > Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's > > and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. > > > > JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? > > > > I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was > > marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 20:41:18 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <39529EEA.B851400C@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping, you > have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else. > BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And Also, it can all be moved in two trips with a mid-sized station-wagon (e.g. - a Gran Torino)... well, possibly one if you really squeezed the stuff in there. If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. > bring some tools so that you can separate the components. At a minimum: assorted screwdrivers, vice grips, nut-drivers, nose-pincher pliers, torx screwdrivers, wire-cutter for emergencies, penknife, pen, notebook, zip-lock bag for screws and nuts, paper and tape to label wires and connectors, a double-bagged paper grocery-store bag to put various odds and ends in and pair of gardening gloves. Note: ask for any tapes, documentation, etc. as soon as possible, not another trip, if possible, as such things tend to get lost or tossed out quickly after the system goes away or gets unplugged. > You will find it much easier if you only need to lift one item at a > time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape drive alone > can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually handle that easily. Several years ago, I disassembled, moved, and reassembled an entire 11/73 rack myself, including the TS05 tape drive, expansion chasis, two 8" SMD drives, etc. Just be careful to lift with the knees and not the back. Of course, it would be a lot easier with two people, and much more pleasant a task with the temperatures in the 50s. :-) > If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will be a great find > IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially > if you need it. Most definitely! :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 22 16:43:51 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <20000623014154.YTHS6272.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:38:22 -0400 (EDT) > From: "R. D. Davis" > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > No need. Go into Tools. > > Pick Options > [...] > > Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. > > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. Got twisted up by nasty bitter pill? See, using machines that is intel-inside doesn't mean automatically that you're branded loser. What you should have done is aim your bitterness at M$ for shoddy apps and breakable NT and loads of codes trying to "break non-M$ s/w" and hidden agrendas in forms of updates and non-compatiable file standards by differen apps versions. Myself using 95a w/ pegasus mail and free agent, netscape. There is so much alteratives apps and OSes besides M$, different machines as well, (classic and non-classics). Be constructive by suggest them to try out different OSes and apps on their machines instead of offending s/w or OSes in use. Wizard From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 20:49:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <001901bfdcb6$e0f2f280$8064c0d0@ajp166> >Sigh. Allison has this part of it wrong, and it is a common problem. > >The book *is* the license. The contents (words etc) are licensed to the >particular bits of paper and cover that you are holding in your hand. When >you transfer the paper, the words go with it. You are forbidden from No, the book is media (I didn't say paper, tape, or ???). >copying the words off the paper and putting them on to some other piece of >paper. What you *own* in the book case is some newsprint, some wax, and >some binder thread *and that is all*. You own media! Bay saying Book it's an implied bound paper media. > You license the software and it is licensed (bound) to your CPU. > You own the CPU and may dispose of it how you wish, however if you > give it away or burn it or throw it away, the software goes with it! > Intel tried to make this model possible with their serial number > scheme but the market rejected it. > >So software, unlike books, is licensed to _people_. (or corporations) >because people and corporations like to be able to change their CPU and not >bother with relicensing their software. If you throw away the corporation >then the license gets thrown away too, just like if you had thrown away the >book. It can be, but, I have an ODBC driver that is "per CPU, unlimited users" that happens to be for a server license. >> The copyright means you can't make copies >>of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell >>or give away without expressed permission. > >Again, this isn't quite correct. The rights to make copies of a "work" >initially rest with the creator of that work. The creator (author what have >you) can then choose to grant limited subsets of those rights (or not) to >other people. As an author I am the copyright holder, I can assign some or >all of those rights to a "publisher" who is allowed to make copies of my >work, provided they send me a fee. *EVERYTHING* works this way, everything >from books to software to music to DVDs and to ill fated Divx disks. I think I said exactly that. The YOU is the holder of the finished product not a LICENSED producer who by expressed permission (contract) can and does produce copies for profit. However My reference also goes to intended use. For example a Encylopedias, they are an information source as reference where wholesale copying is bad but, the contained compendium of knowledge is NOT the property but, the format and package is. >> Software is going the >>route of, you pay for the media, manuals and support(optional) and also >>for rights to use under specified conditions as a CONTRACT. There >>lies the difference. the manuals are property (usually) but the software is >>provided under some stipulation (even freeware!) regarding it's use. > >Manuals still have copyrights, you cannot make copies of them without >permission. This is particularly true of manuals that are distributed as >PDF files. Generally you only have the write to print one copy for you own >personal use! Irrelevent. As I've specified manuals to be as books but distinct from the software itself. It's the distinction between them that was to point being made even though logically they can be identical. >Book authors have traditionally sold the rights to publish their works >(create copies) in paper form, without stipulating a transfer fee when the >book changes owners. They did that not because they were generous, but >because there wasn't any way they could figure out how to do it. (The >e-book guys can identify change of ownership and guess what, you can't give >your ebook to another person without them having to rebuy the book!) You sure? there are such things as licensed copies, copies under NDA and restricted printings. the assumption is you do not retain a copy in both cases. There is the distinct difference. If I give a paper book(tape or other media) away I no longer retain a copy, electronic means allow me to give a COPY and keep the "original" that is a clear copyright violation. There is also the case of I have a music CD, I copy it (or parts) to tape for use in my car where CDs are not useful. This would be format translation and is usually allowed. >Just because you have a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" it only gives you the >right to read it, not aloud at some gathering, or to put it on as a school >play. Correct to a point as profit taking venture. If you used it for schooling or non profit as a out loud reading it is now out side that. >Anyway, I don't mean to pick on anyone, it is not unusual for people to >believe that by buying a record they somehow "own" the music that is on >that record (or CD), they don't. They have only secured the right to listen >to it as often as they would like without additional payments to the Cant find fault in that. Its the exact case. Also no person from the record company or author is allowed to take it from you. They can audit you to see if it's for profit (ASCAP!). DJs for instance! >author. For some really interesting insight into just how intellectual >property works, check out the Napster and MP3 cases that have a lot of >their material posted on various web sites. Can of worms. At the core is who "owns the original work", what that original work is and who is allowed to profit from distribution. The best case of this is I make a recording my arrangement of Bach using pots and PC and sell it on CD. Who owns what? For software, it's worse. I write a version of Basic for 8080, assemble it using MS-MAC, using a Z80 box, under cpm and sell it on a sony microfloppy. Does Darthmoth College get something for the basis of the language? Howabout MS for the use of the MAC asembler used to get a binary? does Sony share as it's their media? Howabout Zilog as it was their cpu design even though it was a Mostek chip? Oh and Intel for their cpu and nemonics? Oh and the company that owned the Z80 box for accounting? What is created?, Who did it, who has a legit share? In any case the license (contract) for RT-11 is specific and any misuse outside that permitted use is a violation subject to legal remedy. Allison From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Thu Jun 22 22:25:52 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: PDP-16 (register transfer modules) Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07E4E24C@ALFEXC5> Does anyone have a PDP-16 (sort of a prototyping machine using register transfer modules) that they'd be willing to part with? I thought I'd made arrangements to snag one from "JohnB", but he appears to have disappeared from the face of the earth. This machine looks intriguing and I'd really like to find one. -- Tony From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 22:41:45 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <39522E29.9EBE3C89@rain.org> Message-ID: <001e01bfdcc4$f5fd9280$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin" To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 12:48 AM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > Okay, I just changed it from user-defined to Western. Is this message coming > through okay? No problem now. >FWIW, I've been using Netscape for years with no problems that > *I* am aware of :). It's insidious. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 22:52:33 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: Message-ID: <002e01bfdcc6$77171520$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 2:08 AM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > No need. Go into Tools. > > Pick Options > [...] > > Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. > > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or Er, if you set the format as I have said, it does send it as plain ascii. (Or as near as it can get to it) > delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. Pegasus is not too bad. I use Outlook Express here because I like certain features, but it does have a few traps for the unwary. They can be overcome and it's relatively well behaved, (apart from it line wrapping ism's which are a bit of a pain at times. > > That will display them in the default encoding method no matter what format > > the incoming msg uses. > However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft > rubbish, I am quite aware of this thank you. The msg was intended for someone who appears to be using it. It was also intended as gen info for anyone on the list that may be using it and had the same problem. > so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient > to do anything other than read it. I wasn't. It appears Marvin was, but he was unaware of it. That issue is fixed. :^) Complain to Bill Gates about Outlook Express. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 22 23:06:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: PDP-16 (register transfer modules) References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07E4E24C@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <3952E251.C6CBB88@rain.org> "Eros, Anthony" wrote: > > Does anyone have a PDP-16 (sort of a prototyping machine using register > transfer modules) that they'd be willing to part with? Yes, it is an interesting "programmable solid state controller"; I hesitate to call it a computer :). When I worked for Nabisco at the Richmond, VA plant, we had about 25 or so of them to control the mixing of ingredients. With the maintenance module and the flow chart that came with the schematics, it was pretty trivial to troubleshoot these things to the component level. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 23:13:02 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <00c001bfdcc9$53bd10e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 5:13 AM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > which is ridiculous, because "Windows-1252" is a unique Microsoft > non-standard character set (meant to be similar to ISO 8859-1, but with a > unique symbol order), and it's also an 8-bit character set which can't be > represented in 7 bits without using base64, uuencode, quoted-printable, or > similar. > > I'm not complaining, merely informing :-) No problem. :^) Bloody thing. Thanks for that. I'm going to reach into the registry settings or whatever and bludgeon it into submission. It seems to be resetting the charset to whatever I'm replying to, and if I change it, it only changes for the one msg and then reverts to that. (Theoretically, it's supposed to be the ISO set not that one.) I'm going to find out what does this and fix it. I'll let you know how I get on. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 23:14:59 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Legal Question Message-ID: <200006230414.AAA10922@world.std.com> >All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me >wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M >and/or RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a Legally, yes, you would need a license. This step is accomplished by either buying one yourself or having the prior owner transfer theirs to you (assuming *they* had a license). >license is legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does >the OS have any way of checking for one? What is required for running the There is nothing in RT, RSTS or RSX which checks for a license, so it doesn't know you have or don't have one... >OS? I really don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. What is required is a complete distribution... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 23:18:38 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <200006230418.AAA13089@world.std.com> >> Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about >>collecting >Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I >asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it >freely accessible. Saying it is doesn't make it so... it may be available on various sites, but that also doesn't make it legal. If it is the version which came originally from the ftp.digital.com site, then it should be packaged with the license from Mentec. If it does not come with the Mentec license, then it is essentially boot-legged software. >Hmmm... Then you should try the PUPS archive I think it is called. You >get a license for it for free. bzzzt, wrong... and thanks for playing. THe PUPS archive may be able to provide a license for *UNIX* of various flavors, but it does NOT provide one for RT, RSX or RSTS. The only source for a valid license for these software products is the *owner*, which is Mentec! Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 23:28:21 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <200006230428.AAA16994@world.std.com> >This is not a problem. One just has to make sure that one has a >system in one's collection running Bob Subnik's emulator attached to >one's real PDP-11s. Have the one with the emulator monitoring >something on the real PDP-11 systems, or somesuch, then, you ARE using >the versions of RT-11 on the real PDP-11s with Bob Supnik's emulator. >:-) :-) :-) Sorry, the current license does NOT impart a right to run the software on *real hardware*. It only imparts a right to use it with the DEC pdp-11 emulator products and Bob Supnik's emulator. This means running it *on* the emulator, not what you mention above. >Ok, let's not make a big deal out of people using RT-11 on their >systems. If they don't have a copy, someone will probably clone them >a copy. No big deal, and DEC didn't care. I was actually told, by >someone in customer service at DEC, to go ahead and use it and not >worry about the license, a few years back, and, when a very pleasant >chap from DEC field service came to my house to investigate a melted >mains plug, no questions were asked. If they said that, they were *wrong*. >There, _in conjunction with the EMULATOR_ - it doesn't say to only use >it with the emulator, but in conjunction with the emulator. Maybe in your mind it means you don't have to run it on the emulator, but now you are properly informed -- it means that you may only run it on the *emulated machine*. >Also, that bit about the license being revocable; that's probably as >binding as a contract of ashesion. Let's say you spend a huge amount >of time on writing some software to control various things around your >house that runs under RT-11; you most likely have a right to continue >using your software running under RT-11. You can continue to use your software, you just can't run it under RT -- regardless of what it is written for, since you don't have a valid license for RT. Please, all this talk of ignoring licenses and the lack of need for them can only serve to hurt to rest of the community of pdp-11 collectors. Mentec is apparently close to allow us all to use the real software on the real hardware... *DON'T SCREW IT UP* Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 23:32:20 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? References: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <00d601bfdccc$05dbe740$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 5:57 AM Subject: Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? > Personally I both sell and give away the software I write, depending on the > program. I have no problem with people selling licenses etc. Since by it's nature, it's possible to use it on more than one machine per copy. (Unlike a book, the most common comparison). So a license to use rather than an ownership of the product is not unreasonable. What I find objectionable and (to me) unreasonable, is the requirement to pay ridiculous sums for a new license when a machine changes hands. Ie the original owner is not allowed to even give away his right to use the software to someone else. That's ridiculous. (Some licenses are still like that AFAIK) Hypothetical (well, mostly) Example. Joe Bloggs buys a Ubeaut computer and buys BeautOS to run on it, with several 'embedded' apps that do various things, like networking etc. Uses it for some years. Then falls victim to the Microsoft conspiracy and buys a PC and Win98. The Ubeaut sits in a back room for a year or two, then is sold to another individual to use. The original owner has no use for the O/S (it only runs on a UBeaut) so he gives him the disks/paperwork etc. The new owner calls the Ubeaut company to transfer the license to himself, only to be told he can't do so and must buy a complete new license.. He then discovers that 'embedded products' are also not transferable, and he must buy them as well. When he challenged this he was told that the company does not bind the license to the machine it was bought for (though indeed it checks the hardware and will only install on that machine) but to the original purchaser, who cannot transfer the license to another party, but has it for life. The original owner's license is such that he may surrender it to the company (but not for any recompense) or he may keep it, but may not dispose of it in any other way. I have seen variants of this, some applied to the O/S, some applied only to certain 'layered products' or both. Theoretically, if the machine and the copy of the software on it change hands X times, the company wants X license fees. I feel this is somewhat overdoing it. I'm not going to pick on any particular company here, many have policies like this for some things. Some have been good enough to provide hobbyist licenses for people that just want to tinker, but still think people with a s/h system & s/h software for commercial use should pay new prices for a license they already sold for that machine. > Zane (who is sick and tired about people whining about > non-free software) All software can't be free. Programmers have to eat. I don't have a problem with that. Just my 0.02c worth, you may have a different slant on things.. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jun 23 00:13:12 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Arium Echo (was Re: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, I'm surprised anybody knows about that box. It was dual-68K (one was a dedicated I/O processor), and ran Regulus, a real-time Unix clone made by a company called Alcyon in San Diego. I think we got it out the door in 1985. I wrote a good chunk of the software for it. We thought it would be cool to have a portable Unix cross-development system. Regulus was nice -- way ahead of it's time, I guess; Linux is just starting to target real-time. Arium is still around, specializing in ICE support for Intel processors: http://www.arium.com/ Cheers, Doug On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > Yes, I expect it is. It's the only Unix portable I've seen. Very blue, > very heavy. > > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > > writes: > > > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of > > ^^^^^ > > Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's > > and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. > > > > JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? > > > > I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was > > marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jun 23 00:17:19 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Arium, UNIX, and other strange things. . . In-Reply-To: <20000622.201856.-3896179.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > Fast foreward about ten years, and Arium merges with American Automation > to become American Arium. I wonder if Arium based their earlier products > on the SSB VAR. No, they never shared any hardware platforms with American Automation. Up till 1985, Arium's stuff was 8085-based, then 68K with the Echo (portable Unix box), and PC-based since then. Cheers, Doug From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 23 02:44:41 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: "Ernest"'s message of "Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:01:09 -0700" References: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200006230744.AAA48622@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Ernest" wrote: > What's happening is that my Pentium system doesn't recognize the format of > these old SS 3.5 disks, even though they are formatted with MSDOS (FAT 12 I > think.) My Pentium will see the 720k disks that I format on the HP but not > the old SS disks. Does anyone know why? No, but Sydex wrote a shareware MS-DOS device driver that used to be available on simtel.net's MS-DOS collection, which supposedly allowed the reading and maybe writing of HP150 stiffies in a PC stiffy drive. Sad to say, I couldn't get it to work on my Toshiba notebook PC (MS-DOS 6.22) for purposes of reading a single-sided HP150 stiffy. You might have better luck. -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 23 02:15:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: "Geoff Roberts" "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 23, 13:43) References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <00c001bfdcc9$53bd10e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <10006230815.ZM10076@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 23, 13:43, Geoff Roberts wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Turnbull" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 5:13 AM > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > which is ridiculous, because "Windows-1252" is a unique Microsoft > > non-standard character set (meant to be similar to ISO 8859-1, but > with a > > unique symbol order), and it's also an 8-bit character set which can't > be > > represented in 7 bits without using base64, uuencode, > quoted-printable, or > > similar. > > > > I'm not complaining, merely informing :-) > > No problem. :^) > > Bloody thing. Thanks for that. I'm going to reach into the registry > settings or whatever and bludgeon it into submission. It seems to be > resetting the charset to whatever I'm replying to, and if I change it, > it only changes for the one msg and then reverts to that. > (Theoretically, it's supposed to be the ISO set not that one.) > I'm going to find out what does this and fix it. I'll let you know how > I get on. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for. Best of luck :-) Several months ago, one of our most senior members of staff (who has been around a long time, and is perfectly happy with text mail, Unix, etc, but has to use a PC for various reasons) sent several long messages to 'support' in mixed HTML+ format, which caused some touble for our support mail system. I politely advised him of this and he said he'd fix it. Well, the next mail was still full of cruft, so I pointed out that we don't support Outlook, and could he please stop using it or set it properly. OK, he replied, in plain text. But the next message was in -- guess what! So I politely mailed him back, just to let him know. There followed a long discussion; basically he refused to beleive his mailer (Outlook) was sending crud because he'd reset it, tested it, and couldn't beleive that his computer/OS could non-deterministically change its own settings. We never did get entirely to the bottom of it, but it seems that in some versions of Outlook, certain settings only apply to that session (ie are reset next time you restart), and some settings are accessible in two places, and you have to change both. We still don't support Outlook, in fact we remove it from view in our standard installs of Windows. But it's still there and people still use it, and it's mostl OK so long as it's set up sensibly. The problem is that Microsoft don't really understand standards like TCP/IP, MIME, DNS, ... (or just don't believe in them). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 23 08:06:06 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: FBA [mailto:fauradon@mn.mediaone.net] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 6:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Yo > > Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you > expect to have > your collection survive you? When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/e15f7564/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 23 08:18:13 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE76@TEGNTSERVER> > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > > Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping, you > > have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else. > > BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And > > Also, it can all be moved in two trips with a mid-sized station-wagon > (e.g. - a Gran Torino)... well, possibly one if you really squeezed > the stuff in there. Well, right now, it's not for certain I'll get it, since John Allain is bidding against me. Hi, John... are you local to Louisville area? I'll be using a pickup truck, and it's a single 42 inch high cabinet, so I think that'll be sufficient. > If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those > rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. Would it be feasible to remove the skins and set it on its side (on a quilt)? > > bring some tools so that you can separate the components. > ..snip.. > > Note: ask for any tapes, documentation, etc. as soon as possible, not > another trip, if possible, as such things tend to get lost or tossed > out quickly after the system goes away or gets unplugged. The system is in the hands of a sort-of-collector, not at its original installed site. The photo shows a bookcase of what appear to be manuals, but he may intend to sell them separately. I'll ask, tho, to be sure. > > You will find it much easier if you only need to lift one item at a > > time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape drive alone > > can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually handle that easily. > > Several years ago, I disassembled, moved, and reassembled an entire > 11/73 rack myself, including the TS05 tape drive, expansion chasis, > two 8" SMD drives, etc. Just be careful to lift with the knees and > not the back. Of course, it would be a lot easier with two people, > and much more pleasant a task with the temperatures in the 50s. :-) Hah, it will likely be in the high 80s or low 90s if I get the dang thing. Fortunately, the truck is being driven by a farm boy, so he's used to lifting that bale, toting that barge... > > If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will be a great find > > IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially > > if you need it. > > Most definitely! :-) I'll at least be transferring the plexiglass tape drive window to the Cipher I have for the Prime. BTW, I asked the seller to check the rear plate of the TS05, thinking it *is* a Cipher F880 and he came back and said it has only a TS05 ID plate. The front bezel is *identical* to the F880 streamer. Do you know yea/nay on this? -dq From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 23 08:33:11 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:00 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <000623093311.26200878@trailing-edge.com> >> If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those >> rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. >Would it be feasible to remove the skins and set it on its side (on >a quilt)? Yes, that's my preferred way for transporting H9642's when they can't be moved standing up. The quilt is there to protect your truck bed, not the rack :-). Again, make sure the side panels don't blow away, there's a pair of VAX 11/750 top panels *somewhere* along the side of the Santa Monica freeway that disappeared once during a haul of mine... >I'll at least be transferring the plexiglass tape drive window >to the Cipher I have for the Prime. BTW, I asked the seller to >check the rear plate of the TS05, thinking it *is* a Cipher F880 >and he came back and said it has only a TS05 ID plate. > >The front bezel is *identical* to the F880 streamer. Do you know >yea/nay on this? Mechanically, they're identical except for the nameplates. There may be slightly different firmware/electronics, but these vary depending on the F880 rev level anyway. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Jun 23 08:51:46 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01bfdd1a$2c7979f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. > Steve Robertson Just be sure to hit the [send] on your email before you do! (All joking aside, I guess the lesson is that this virtual community we have here will be unknown to any of our successors unless we make efforts to document its existence and our memberships in it. Also, for a collection worth more than a few $K, it probably should be documented with items and their values and supporting literarure (Processor magazine?) ) John A. From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 23 09:27:20 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: your email address at hotmail References: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> <002401bfdcaf$2d337dc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <395373C8.418664AC@ix.netcom.com> i don't have a hotmail account. Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've gotten a couple of emails bounced from hotmail. Could you send me a > list of useable email addresses, so I can get your auction info to you > promptly. Have you gotten in touch with the guy who's got your manuals? > > regards, > > Dick From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 23 09:49:01 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: RSX-11M for Supnik emulator ? Message-ID: Speaking of PDP-11 emulators and licenses ... Is there anywhere I can get an RSX-11M distribution for use with Supnik's emulator? The current Mentec license appears to permit this (at least, for RSX-11M V4.3 and previous, or RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or previous), but the software isn't on the DEC FTP site. --Pat. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Jun 23 10:01:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <00c001bfdcc9$53bd10e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <10006230815.ZM10076@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002101bfdd24$970dfa20$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > The problem is that > Microsoft don't really understand standards like TCP/IP, MIME, DNS, ... (or > just don't believe in them). I think that about covers it.....:^) Cheers Geoff From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Jun 23 10:35:20 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> I have to make one point here, then I'll slink back into lurk mode. Using the book analogy would not necessarily mean that your licensed software was legally bound to the *CPU* the way the contents of a book are bound to the paper. Making it legally bound to the CPU would be like making the contents of the book legally bound to the room in which you read it; you sell the house, the book goes with it; you want to sell the book, sell the house. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the software contents legally bound to the original media on which it was delivered? This is how books work, and (I think) how most people expect software licensing to work. Licensing to the CPU was just another way to make sure nobody could every reasonably transfer their license to anyone else. If the book publishers did that, they'd be.. uh... out of the mass market. (How many publishers engrave their work into house walls rather than print onto paper? And how many engravings of novels have you bought from them lately?) Thank God the market rejected it! My point it, software *could* be licensed the way the contents of books are; it need not imply any ill-conceived notions that hinder transferrability, such as binding to a CPU. The holder of the original media could be the legal holder of the license, just as with books. The book analogy could work just fine, and the market has *not* rejected it. Bill. ON Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: ] ] At 06:59 PM 6/22/00 -0400, Allison wrote: ] >Consider this you buy a book, you own it to dispose of how you wish ] >(sell, give or burn). You don't buy a license to read it or X many friends ] >to read it. It is property. ] ] Sigh. Allison has this part of it wrong, and it is a common problem. ] ] The book *is* the license. The contents (words etc) are licensed to the ] particular bits of paper and cover that you are holding in your hand. When ] you transfer the paper, the words go with it. You are forbidden from ] copying the words off the paper and putting them on to some other piece of ] paper. What you *own* in the book case is some newsprint, some wax, and ] some binder thread *and that is all*. ] ] If you *MUST* use the book analogy, (and it has already appeared twice ] now), understand how it would be implemented in computers: ] ] You license the software and it is licensed (bound) to your CPU. ] You own the CPU and may dispose of it how you wish, however if you ] give it away or burn it or throw it away, the software goes with it! ] Intel tried to make this model possible with their serial number ] scheme but the market rejected it. ] ] So software, unlike books, is licensed to _people_. (or corporations) ] because people and corporations like to be able to change their CPU and not ] bother with relicensing their software. If you throw away the corporation ] then the license gets thrown away too, just like if you had thrown away the ] book. ] ... and much more, deleted... From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 23 11:10:23 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <000623121023.262008af@trailing-edge.com> >Wouldn't it make more sense to have the software contents legally >bound to the original media on which it was delivered? This is how >books work, and (I think) how most people expect software licensing >to work. Except that you can't use the software until you *copy* it into your computer. The courts have ruled that it's copying whether you read it into RAM or write it to a hard drive. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 23 11:30:10 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6E@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <006001bfdd30$514af9a0$4b483cd1@winbook> If anybody has a valid [**NOT** Hotmail] address for Will Jennings, please let me know. He asked me to bid on a couple of eBay items for him and now that he's won on them my communication path has broken down due to Hotmail's claim that they {their server} don't exist. Since it's my goal to reduce the amount of ancient computer hardware I have lying about, I'd really rather not become the owner of the electro-ecletica that he wanted. Dick From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 23 11:37:34 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: HP15 disk format (was: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Ernest wrote: > I've started to make copies of these HP150 disks, and since I have a minute, > I was wondering why my WinPC won't recognize these disks. Because that is NOT one of the "official" MS-DOS disk formats that MICROS~1 supports. MICROS~1 had provision for OEMs to be able to modify certain pieces (IO.SYS) of MS-DOS, particularly in version 2.11, to be able to add their own unique formats. Starting in version 3.20, all variants of MS-DOS support a 720K format, although that is NOT always the same as the 720K format that some OEMs had been using prior to that. > What I've been > doing to get around this problem is to copy each disk to the HD on my 150, > and then copy the new files from the 150 to a blank 720k disk, which my > Pentium system can see but this is really tedious. > > What's happening is that my Pentium system doesn't recognize the format of > these old SS 3.5 disks, even though they are formatted with MSDOS (FAT 12 I > think.) My Pentium will see the 720k disks that I format on the HP but not > the old SS disks. Does anyone know why? Yes. There are literally hundreds of mutually incompatible MS-DOS disk formats (as well as thousands of CP/M ones) > Are the old disks copy protected? No. > Or is because they're single sided? I'm > curious because I would like to find a better way to copy these disks. There are several programs available for transferring files between different disk formats. http://www.xenosoft.com/xcflyer.html But what you are currently doing seems to be working reasonably well. Does your HP support the "phantom B: drive"? Quick experiment: Even with only one physical floppy, ask for a DIR B: Most MS-DOS systems will NOT say "Invalid Drive Specification" to that! Instead, they will prompt you to put the drive B: disk into the drive! The system uses the one physical drive for both A: and B: ! You could simply type COPY A:*.* B: and it will prompt you for disk swaps. WRITE-PROTECT ALL OF YOUR SOURCE DISKS BEFORE YOU START, since sometime you will put the wrong disk into the drive. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 23 11:45:33 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you > > expect to have > > your collection survive you? > When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. > Steve Robertson The executor of my estate has instructions to hold a garage sale, to be announced on this and a few other lists, followed by whatever she wants to do with the stuff. [hint: If YOU provide her with the dumpster, ...] But with the closing of my current office location happening now, there may not be an abnormal amount of stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 23 13:10:41 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why not will it to the Computer Museum History Center? http://www.computerhistory.org hat's what I intend to do with mine. -Mike On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: FBA [mailto:fauradon@mn.mediaone.net] > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 6:04 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Yo > > > > Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you > > expect to have > > your collection survive you? > > When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. > Steve Robertson > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 23 13:25:56 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> (message from Bill Yakowenko on Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:35:20 -0400 (EDT)) References: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20000623182556.5638.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > My point it, software *could* be licensed the way the contents of > books are; it need not imply any ill-conceived notions that hinder > transferrability, such as binding to a CPU. The holder of the original > media could be the legal holder of the license, just as with books. > The book analogy could work just fine, and the market has *not* > rejected it. And in fact Borland used to do exactly that. Their license explicitly stated that the software was like a book, and that they were happy as long the software was only run on one machine at any given time (just like a book generally can only be read by one person at a time). Wish I had a copy of the license to type in; as commercial software licenses go it was one of the best. They didn't explicitly state it, but I suppose that just as you might tear a book in two so that two people can read different parts of it simultaneously, perhaps you could simultaneously run two portion of the Borland software on two computers. Eric From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 23 13:34:42 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just go back from checking out a municipal yard sale in North Kingstown. Generally speaking, not much. I did see a TRS-80 model 1, and an early Mac and an Apple II lurking in the piles. Also some early clone XT's and AT's. One possibility is an ADDS Consul 980 terminal. I may go back for that. Looks like early 70's vintage. Also some Datamaxx jobs, but no servers. Odd omission. Mostly junk, but some IBM Selectric II's, and a beautiful Adler. Some Panasonic Electronic typewriters, too, but most stuff was in rough condition. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 23 13:49:33 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE78@TEGNTSERVER> > Why not will it to the Computer Museum History Center? > > http://www.computerhistory.org > > hat's what I intend to do with mine. It's not enough to just will your collection or some part of it to the Computer Museum History Center... unless you also provide for the shipping/transport of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so themselves. Everyone, please bear this in mind. Make sure a few $$$ remain to cover shipping & handling! -dq From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 23 13:57:56 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings Message-ID: <20000623.135805.-452223.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Yeah, I'd like to contact him also. . . . ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 23 14:19:04 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook Message-ID: Well, I corresponded with some folks at AMD, and didn't quite get everything I wanted, but this might help somebody. They have approved me making up to 10 copies of the Am2900 databook. My plan is to scan it in and turn it into a PDF file. Therefore, I can only make copies available to 10 people. If you are seriously interested in a copy of this, let me know (John Keys - I assume you'd like a copy, and already have you down for one). If you get a copy of this from me, you may not redistribute it to anyone. You'll also need to be patient, as it may take a week or two for me to get around to doing this. If substantially more than 10 people are interested, I'll go back to them and request further permission, but this was all they felt they could let me do without running my request through legal review. --Pat. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jun 23 14:32:18 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <20000623182556.5638.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jun 23, 2000 06:25:56 pm" Message-ID: <200006231932.MAA13347@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > And in fact Borland used to do exactly that. Their license explicitly > stated that the software was like a book, and that they were happy as long > the software was only run on one machine at any given time (just like a > book generally can only be read by one person at a time). Wish I had a > copy of the license to type in; as commercial software licenses go it was > one of the best. At one time the evil empire use to issue a license card with Windows, which allowed you to install Windows on as many machines as you wanted as long as the user had the card in their possession while using the machine. Personally, I though Borland's method was much better than MS's. Eric From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 23 15:52:38 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000623155238.3b8fbeba@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:06 AM 6/23/00 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: FBA [mailto:fauradon@mn.mediaone.net] >> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 6:04 PM >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Yo >> >> Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you >> expect to have >> your collection survive you? > >When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. >Steve Robertson That's an idea but I'm afraid that between you and Mike "DogAss" I wouldn't live very long. :-/ Joe From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 23 15:07:31 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Corvus concept Message-ID: I just came across a cardboard paper box that had 11 Corvus concept memory boards in it. Each is about 6" by 6" square. That's all there was. Anyone have an idea what they are? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu box diver = computer scrounger = ancient programmer From mbg at world.std.com Fri Jun 23 15:08:21 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: RSX-11M for Supnik emulator ? Message-ID: <200006232008.QAA18108@world.std.com> >Speaking of PDP-11 emulators and licenses ... >Is there anywhere I can get an RSX-11M distribution for use with Supnik's >emulator? The current Mentec license appears to permit this (at least, >for RSX-11M V4.3 and previous, or RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or previous), but the >software isn't on the DEC FTP site. Back when the Mentec license became available, I took a copy of my V5.3 kit and packaged it up for Bob Supnik so that he could get it up on the DEC ftp site. Unfortunately, by that time there was simply no-one from the RSX or RSTS groups left to do the same for those systems. And now, Bob Supnik is no longer around, so I don't know who to contact about putting stuff up on the site. Hopefully Mentec could be persuaded to have an archive of distributions available (once they actually allow the hobbyist use)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 23 15:17:11 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE79@TEGNTSERVER> Count me in, please... -doug quebbeman > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Barron [mailto:pat@transarc.ibm.com] > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 3:19 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook > > > Well, I corresponded with some folks at AMD, and didn't quite get > everything I wanted, but this might help somebody. > > They have approved me making up to 10 copies of the Am2900 > databook. My > plan is to scan it in and turn it into a PDF file. > Therefore, I can only > make copies available to 10 people. > > If you are seriously interested in a copy of this, let me > know (John Keys - I > assume you'd like a copy, and already have you down for one). > If you get > a copy of this from me, you may not redistribute it to anyone. You'll > also need to be patient, as it may take a week or two for me > to get around > to doing this. > > If substantially more than 10 people are interested, I'll go > back to them > and request further permission, but this was all they felt > they could let > me do without running my request through legal review. > > --Pat. > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 23 15:19:37 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000623093311.26200878@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those > >> rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. It seems to me that a few turns of duct tape around the rack would retain them alright. We used rather similar tape back in the 50's to retain some things on the fusilage surface when flight testing supersonic aircraft. - don > >Would it be feasible to remove the skins and set it on its side (on > >a quilt)? > > Yes, that's my preferred way for transporting H9642's when they can't > be moved standing up. The quilt is there to protect your truck bed, > not the rack :-). Again, make sure the side panels don't blow away, > there's a pair of VAX 11/750 top panels *somewhere* along the side of the Santa > Monica freeway that disappeared once during a haul of mine... > > >I'll at least be transferring the plexiglass tape drive window > >to the Cipher I have for the Prime. BTW, I asked the seller to > >check the rear plate of the TS05, thinking it *is* a Cipher F880 > >and he came back and said it has only a TS05 ID plate. > > > >The front bezel is *identical* to the F880 streamer. Do you know > >yea/nay on this? > > Mechanically, they're identical except for the nameplates. There may > be slightly different firmware/electronics, but these vary depending on the > F880 rev level anyway. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 23 15:26:36 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <000623121023.262008af@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Wouldn't it make more sense to have the software contents legally > >bound to the original media on which it was delivered? This is how > >books work, and (I think) how most people expect software licensing > >to work. > > Except that you can't use the software until you *copy* it into > your computer. The courts have ruled that it's copying whether you read > it into RAM or write it to a hard drive. By the same token, you cannot 'use' the contents of the book until you have 'copied' it into your mind! But doubtless, courts do not see it that way. - don > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 23 16:28:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yik In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000623162843.3cf7da94@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:34 PM 6/23/00 -0400, Merle wrote: > >I just go back from checking out a municipal yard sale in North >Kingstown. Generally speaking, not much. I did see a TRS-80 model 1, >and an early Mac and an Apple II lurking in the piles. Also some early >clone XT's and AT's. One possibility is an ADDS Consul 980 terminal. I may >go back for that. Looks like early 70's vintage. Also some Datamaxx jobs, >but no servers. Odd omission. > >Mostly junk, but some IBM Selectric II's, and a beautiful Adler. Some >Panasonic Electronic typewriters, too, but most stuff was in rough condition. > > I did somewhat better. I picked up several CDC core memory boards (to help finance my collection!) and an old Tektronix Multi User Developement system (Tektronix 8540 and 8560) with a 68000 CPU pod. I just posted some pictures at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/tek-pod.jpg", "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/tek-8560.jpg", "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/tek-8540.jpg", "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/8560-bk.jpg" and "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/8540-bk.jpg". Sorry the pictures aren't any better but I just got home and unloaded the stuff and I haven't had time to clean it or look at it closely yet. The 8560 uses an 8 inch floppy drive. I have soem disk here that are marked "Tek-DOS", I'm hoping that they're for this system. Does anyone know anything about these? Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 23 16:02:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: DEC CPU bulkhead issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000623134812.00c285e0@208.226.86.10> As some of you may recall, I was wondering about the compatibility between the KA660 (VAX 4000/200 Q-Bus CPU) and the CPU bulkhead for a KA640 (VAXServer 3400 Q-Bus CPU). My issue was that the on-board Ethernet (SGEC) on the KA660 wasn't able to communicate through the AUI port on the bulkhead to the local LAN. (even though the switch was in the correct position and the LED above the AUI connector was green) The bulkhead had labels on it for a KA640 (indicating that the CPU had been replaced) and so my first theory was that the bulkheads were incompatible.) The bulkhead is DEC part number 70-25775-01. And it classifies as an "S-type". To debug this I removed the KA660 and inspected it, the SGEC is soldered in so removing/replacing it wasn't an option. I installed a DESQA ethernet in the backplane and netbooted NetBSD. I wrote a program to put the SGEC is loopback mode and tested it that way, it works fine. I scrounged around this morning and found another bulkhead with the same part number and tried it instead. With this bulkhead the AUI connector works! Yippee. So, thinking that perhaps there is a fuse that is blown (this happened on my DEQNA cab kit once before) I proceeded to disassemble the defective bulkhead. However, there is no evidence of a fuse anywhere. So perhaps there is a fusible link part. Anyway I'm hoping that someone on this list has the print set for the bulkhead and can tell me what might be wrong so that I might fix it. --Chuck From root at techcare.com Fri Jun 23 16:07:38 2000 From: root at techcare.com (Sean Caron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Corvus concept References: Message-ID: <3953D19A.65442FD2@techcare.com> "McFadden, Mike" wrote: > I just came across a cardboard paper box that had 11 Corvus concept memory > boards in it. Each is about 6" by 6" square. That's all there was. Anyone > have an idea what they are? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > box diver = computer scrounger = ancient programmer I would assume they were memory boards for the Corvus Concept, a rather interesting workstation-type computer that was produced around 1984 or so, I believe. It was a pretty neat system. It was 68000 based and I think it could run UNIX as well as a custom operating system made by Corvus (I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head) that was quasi-WYSIWYG.. Kind of a LISA Office System type of thing. There was a word processor, spreadsheet, etc. The system itself had this high-res (bitmapped?) monitor that you could swivel between portrait and landscape mode. I've got a magazine article about them kicking around the house somewhere. I can look for it if you're interested in more information about the systems. --Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jun 23 16:14:32 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Corvus concept In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Jun 23, 2000 03:07:31 pm" Message-ID: <200006232114.QAA04124@caesar.cs.umn.edu> http://www.atari-computer.com/mjaap/computer/english/hc_index.htm -Lawrence LeMay > I just came across a cardboard paper box that had 11 Corvus concept memory > boards in it. Each is about 6" by 6" square. That's all there was. Anyone > have an idea what they are? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > box diver = computer scrounger = ancient programmer > From Wm.King at eng.sun.com Fri Jun 23 16:38:45 2000 From: Wm.King at eng.sun.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: DEC CPU bulkhead issues Message-ID: <3953D8E5.C0DF8026@eng.sun.com> Chuck, Does this have a switch to select between AUI and 10-Base-2? I've recently repaired two systems where the switch was dirty and didn't make a good electrical connection. The symptoms were that the AUI port received, but wouldn't transmit. Maybe that's the problem. Bill -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wrking.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 229 bytes Desc: Card for William King Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/d8c30ac1/wrking.vcf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 13:08:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at Jun 22, 0 05:01:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/b9f4348d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 16:55:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yik In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000623162843.3cf7da94@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 23, 0 04:28:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/7c6857b3/attachment.ksh From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 23 17:56:31 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: > >When I die, my collection is up for grabs... > > That's an idea but I'm afraid that between you and Mike "DogAss" I > wouldn't live very long. :-/ > > Joe I'm pretty sure your wife would help us load up all that "Junk"... You start feeling sick, just let me know :-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/b229ac17/attachment.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jun 23 18:13:10 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook References: Message-ID: <013501bfdd68$9a634ec0$38701fd1@default> Thanks very much I will be waiting to hear from you. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Barron To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook > Well, I corresponded with some folks at AMD, and didn't quite get > everything I wanted, but this might help somebody. > > They have approved me making up to 10 copies of the Am2900 databook. My > plan is to scan it in and turn it into a PDF file. Therefore, I can only > make copies available to 10 people. > > If you are seriously interested in a copy of this, let me know (John Keys - I > assume you'd like a copy, and already have you down for one). If you get > a copy of this from me, you may not redistribute it to anyone. You'll > also need to be patient, as it may take a week or two for me to get around > to doing this. > > If substantially more than 10 people are interested, I'll go back to them > and request further permission, but this was all they felt they could let > me do without running my request through legal review. > > --Pat. > > > From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Jun 23 18:22:17 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings In-Reply-To: <006001bfdd30$514af9a0$4b483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <000301bfdd69$df4e04c0$92e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Dick Erlacher said something to the effect: -> If anybody has a valid [**NOT** Hotmail] address for Will -> Jennings, please -> let me know. He asked me to bid on a couple of eBay items -> for him and now -> that he's won on them my communication path has broken down -> due to Hotmail's -> claim that they {their server} don't exist. -> -> Since it's my goal to reduce the amount of ancient computer -> hardware I have -> lying about, I'd really rather not become the owner of the -> electro-ecletica -> that he wanted. -> -> Dick -> Don't you fellows learn. This isn't the first time Will has pulled shenanigans like this after he's been kicked off of eBay. BTW, here's the requested email address for Will: ImATallWhiteGuy@aol.com 'til next time, Bill From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 23 18:57:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings In-Reply-To: <000301bfdd69$df4e04c0$92e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: In the interest of preventing future headaches for fellow ClassicCmpers, I must say that I have heard several complaints from at least two different people regarding the unreliability of Will Jennings. I myself have experienced a slight amount of flakiness coming from his direction. On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: > -> Dick Erlacher said something to the effect: > > -> If anybody has a valid [**NOT** Hotmail] address for Will > -> Jennings, please > -> let me know. He asked me to bid on a couple of eBay items > -> for him and now > -> that he's won on them my communication path has broken down > -> due to Hotmail's > -> claim that they {their server} don't exist. > -> > -> Since it's my goal to reduce the amount of ancient computer > -> hardware I have > -> lying about, I'd really rather not become the owner of the > -> electro-ecletica > -> that he wanted. > -> > -> Dick > -> > > Don't you fellows learn. This isn't the first time Will has pulled > shenanigans like this after he's been kicked off of eBay. > > BTW, here's the requested email address for Will: > ImATallWhiteGuy@aol.com > > 'til next time, > > Bill > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From retro at retrobits.com Fri Jun 23 22:51:53 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Hello all, I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become useless before too much longer? I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! Thanks in advance, Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Jun 23 23:23:00 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) References: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> <20000623182556.5638.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <395437A4.793094CE@idirect.com> >Eric Smith wrote: > Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > My point it, software *could* be licensed the way the contents of > > books are; it need not imply any ill-conceived notions that hinder > > transferrability, such as binding to a CPU. The holder of the original > > media could be the legal holder of the license, just as with books. > > The book analogy could work just fine, and the market has *not* > > rejected it. > And in fact Borland used to do exactly that. Their license explicitly > stated that the software was like a book, and that they were happy as long > the software was only run on one machine at any given time (just like a > book generally can only be read by one person at a time). Wish I had a > copy of the license to type in; as commercial software licenses go it was > one of the best. Jerome Fine replies: Borland's license agreement was VERY simple. I quote it here from a book on "Turbo C" Copyright 1988. The first paragraph dealt with archival copies. The second paragraph states: [By saying "just like a book," Borland means, for example that this software may be used by any number of people and may be freely moved from one computer location to another so long as there is NO POSSIBILITY of its being used at one location while it's being used at another.] I substituted CAPITALS for bold letters. In general, I very strongly agree that the essence of this license agreement was not only one of the best, but it was also one of the most fair and reasonable. Essentially, I would interpret the [...] to mean that possession of the original media (whether still readable or not) constituted absolute proof that the user could legally use the software on their computer so long as no other copies had been given to anyone else. Not that possession of the original media was required, only that having the original distribution was a clear statement that the user had legal possession of the software and was still allowed to use the software on a computer system so long as no copies had been given to anyone else AND that possession of the original distribution could then be transferred to ANYONE else without Borland being needed to provide permission - and charge a transfer fee. > They didn't explicitly state it, but I suppose that just as you might > tear a book in two so that two people can read different parts of it > simultaneously, perhaps you could simultaneously run two portion of the > Borland software on two computers. Not only that, but I wonder if someone ever tried to expand the interpretation. While I would not be able to do so myself, I have heard of many situations where a single book was used by MANY students when individual copies were not available. Some became adept in reading the book from the left, other from the right and a few could even read the book UPSIDE DOWN. Would that mean that a "shared" (I realize that back in 1988, shared disk drives were probably not generally available - and if they were would probably have cost more than extra distributions of the software) disk drive could have been used at one location connected by "short" cables to many computers? OR as an alternative, it would seem to be very possible to use a server which had the only disk copy and execute the software on each local computer by the many students reading the book from different positions at the same table? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I realize that the following is a bit long, but I would appreciate comments. But aside from such considerations, the general substance of the license was that Borland, even in 1988, was trusting large companies to have purchased sufficient copies of the software. PLUS, once purchased, there was no attempt of any kind to prevent a user from transferring the right to use the software to a different user on either the same hardware - if the computer system was sold - OR on even a completely different, but compatible, computer system so long as the original software was no longer installed and being used on the first computer system. The did not mean that Borland surrendered any rights with respect to the original sale of the original software on the original distribution. The ONLY difference I can see between the Borland concept and the DEC concept was that, at the VERY least, once the original hardware and Borland software possession was transferred, there was no attempt to collect a second fee for the USE of the same software (just as even DEC allowed the hardware possession to be transferred). Whereas if DEC software was involved, somehow it was considered that the same software could be used forever by the same company on the same hardware, but if possession of the "book" was transferred, suddenly a second fee for legal USE was required (i.e. could be squeezed from the second user of the hardware and software) - and especially so if a license transfer could not be arranged due the to lack of documentation which in many cases DEC refused to provide with the original sale. And while most companies did not care when the original software was purchased, problems did occur when possession of the hardware was transferred. Of course, it seems now that the goal for large corporations is to force a payment for every use of the software, i.e. a perpetual rental system. I had thought that this issue was settled when IBM was forced to allow a computer system to be purchased rather than requiring permanent rental. Of course, if the goal associated with charging for each use of some software was to keep the legal use revenue neutral until all pirated use was eliminated and then reduce the cost to legal users since the company was receiving far higher revenue, then I would agree. But I, and probably many others, suspect that the ultimate goal is to increase the cost even to legal users so that a monopoly situation will eventually develop which results in very few companies holding all the control to most of the items which are being distributed and per usage fees being charged for the use of proprietary software on proprietary hardware. PLUS, with distribution being so concentrated, there will be a severe reduction in the ability of some sources to achieve recognition. This already happens in many cases - I suspect that the film industry is only one example. For instance, if Microsoft had gained monopoly control of the internet via its browser and wanted to stop a boycott of its operating systems, all email urging such a boycott could end up being "lost" for some unexplained "reason". No wonder I get the impression that so many hobby users are so .... In most cases, I get the impression that most hobby users follow the Borland model with respect to the use of software in any case - which just means that Mentec/DEC/Compaq don't receive any additional revenue in any case. But the attitude develops (and is possibly encouraged) that it is OK to use software for hobby use even if it was not originally installed on that piece of DEC hardware. I for one, hope that the indications that Mentec seems to be addressing this aspect of hobby use of PDP-11 software will be done soon now, as seems to be the case and will also be reasonable both from the point of view of administration (there really does not need to be any) as well as cost. From my point of view, the hobby use of PDP-11 software under just the Supnik emulator was a valuable first step. Now we need to wait for a reasonable second step. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 23 23:45:58 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: Hi, I have 8? boxes of ten maxell DS/DD disk I will sell for $5 each plus shipping. These are brand new (still shrink-wrapped). Contact me OL if you are interested. clint vaxman@uswest.net On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > Thanks in advance, > > Earl Evans > retro@retrobits.com > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com > > > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 23 23:56:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? I don't know about the *best* place, but DiskDirect has them for $.25 ea in quantity of 10 and $.20 in Quantity of 100. Their site is www.disksdirect.com. > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? Shelf life has been demonstrated to be 29 years and more with good quality diskettes and moderate storage conditions. I think 5.25" drives in legacy machines will be around for some time. > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) Basically, it will not be successful! > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! Don't overlook getting used ones, bulk degaussing, peeling the labels, and starting all over again. - don From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Jun 24 05:56:16 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: Hello Earl On 23-Jun-00, you wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > Thanks in advance, > > Earl Evans > retro@retrobits.com > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com Interesting . . . I've used HD media in my Ozzie 1 and had no problems, but at 80 k per disk wet tissue would probably work too . . . I'm wondering myself where you can get 5.25 media anymore of any variety. I used to get disks out of MEI Micro but that has been years ago (3.5 DSDD). I occasionally use HD disks in my Amiga and haven't had any problems, at 880 k per disk. Might look at going-out-of-business sales at office supplies, etc. Somebody probably has cases of those things sitting around, useless for anything else. I have a similar problem with the large Syquest disks (44, 88, and 200 meg). Can't find them anywhere either . . . Does the lack of a hub reinforcement make a difference? I don't know . . . I know that 8" is still available for a PRICE! Caveat emptor I guess. Or find a 1581 drive that takes 3.5 disks . . . > > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 24 01:23:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? I often find them at thrift stores for pretty cheap (a buck for a box of ten). Many times I find a gaggle of used ones in a bag selling for a buck or so, but I often come across new in-the-box diskettes as well (sometimes still in shrink wrap). You can still probably order them from somewhere but I wouldn't be able to direct you to anywhere specific. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 24 06:18:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <000624071806.27e000b8@trailing-edge.com> >I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > >First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? Occasionally I find a wholesaler going out of business and selling thousands of boxes of 'em, at prices as low as 10 cents a box. But barring such a surplus find, you can buy them brand new from www.buy.com. At the moment you can get Maxell, Imation, and Verbatim at $4.95 a box from them, but I've seen prices as low as $2.95 a box. >Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the >shelf life? The Imation floppies I've gotten from buy.com were produced in the last year or two. So yes, it's still being made. > Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become >useless before too much longer? 5.25" drives, useless soon? I don't think so! I still use 14" removable hard drives! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 24 06:22:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <000624072216.27e000b8@trailing-edge.com> > I know that 8" is still available for a PRICE! That price isn't very high :-). Admittedly, I get them straight from the manufacturer in large lots, but the price is roughly one-fourth what I was paying in the early 80's, and that isn't even taking inflation into account! Tim. From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jun 24 05:32:03 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Apple ][ board? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000624063203.007b2a50@mail.wincom.net> Does anyone recognize an Apple ][ board, Interactive Structures Inc, a 34 pin connector, and an AM 25L04PC chip? The only number I could find is 3694 written in ink. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 24 08:20:46 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622175105.00c094e0@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:14:17PM -0700 References: <003401bfdc9d$a5609650$7164c0d0@ajp166> <4.3.2.7.2.20000622175105.00c094e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000624092046.A13171@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:14:17PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >> The copyright means you can't make copies >>of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell >>or give away without expressed permission. > >Again, this isn't quite correct. The rights to make copies of a "work" >initially rest with the creator of that work. The creator (author what have >you) can then choose to grant limited subsets of those rights (or not) to >other people. I think Allison was talking about the "fair use" principle, which *does* allow you to publish small excerpt of copyrighted works without royalties under particular conditions. Book reviews, etc... This can be a gray area since people can disagree over how big an excerpt has to be before it's too big. You certainly can't publish an entire Stephen King novel, tack the line "I liked it!" on the end, and get away with it. John Wilson D Bit From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Jun 24 08:34:28 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A Message-ID: <3954B8E4.5B82ED3F@idirect.com> I would appreciate some help from anyone who knows about the difference between a: TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. I am able to get a TK50Z-GA working under a SCSI host adapter (CQD-220/TM) on a Qbus system (I set the SCSI ID=4) and I see a standard TK50 tape drive under RT-11. But, I also suspect that the TK50Z-FA is probably broken. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jun 24 10:18:13 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A In-Reply-To: <3954B8E4.5B82ED3F@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000624081813.0096a420@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:34 24-06-2000 -0400, Jerome Fine wrote: >I would appreciate some help from anyone who knows >about the difference between a: > >TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. My understanding: The -FA was designed to work only with a VAXStation 2000 (the 'Lunchbox' systems), while the -GA was designed to work (in theory) with any SCSI-based system. The difference takes the form of a different EPROM on the bridge board in the box, and the presence of DIP switches to set the SCSI ID in the -GA version. I have successfully converted an FA to a GA simply by changing the EPROM. Should you wish to do so, and you have access to EPROM erasing/programming equipment, I would be happy to E-attach you the appropriate image file. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 24 10:34:53 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:01 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? References: Message-ID: <008c01bfddf2$a551f860$b7711fd1@default> I passed on 3 Syquest 88's yesterday at $3 each used because I have no need. Again the thrift's are the best places here to find this can of stuff. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 5:56 AM Subject: Re: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? > Hello Earl > > On 23-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives > become > > useless before too much longer? > > > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Earl Evans > > retro@retrobits.com > > > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com > > Interesting . . . I've used HD media in my Ozzie 1 and had no problems, but > at 80 k per disk wet tissue would probably work too . . . > > I'm wondering myself where you can get 5.25 media anymore of any variety. I > used to get disks out of MEI Micro but that has been years ago (3.5 DSDD). > I occasionally use HD disks in my Amiga and haven't had any problems, at 880 > k per disk. Might look at going-out-of-business sales at office supplies, > etc. Somebody probably has cases of those things sitting around, useless > for anything else. > > I have a similar problem with the large Syquest disks (44, 88, and 200 meg). > Can't find them anywhere either . . . > > Does the lack of a hub reinforcement make a difference? I don't know . . . > > I know that 8" is still available for a PRICE! > > Caveat emptor I guess. Or find a 1581 drive that takes 3.5 disks . . . > > > > > > > Regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 24 10:31:13 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? References: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <008b01bfddf2$a45f5b00$b7711fd1@default> I see them all the time here at the thrift's, Goodwill had hundred's not long ago and no one wanted them so they were trashed.I saw 10 boxes yesterday at another thrift all new unopened. If you want me to pick up some email me off line at jrkeys@concentric.net. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 10:51 PM Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > Thanks in advance, > > Earl Evans > retro@retrobits.com > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 24 09:36:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <00b301bfdded$8b02fe00$7264c0d0@ajp166> >First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? I don't know, I have enough to keep me going for years. >Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the >shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become >useless before too much longer? Not likely. I have 5.25 media that is 20+ years and still good. It's likely you have things reversed, the drive may fail first. ;) >I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD >media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more >complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) >So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can >find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! NO majik, the darker HD media is for 1.2mb use and the ligher brownish media is for all others. the other half is do not use 96tpi drives to *reliabily* write 48tpi media or the reverse (special projects and emergency cases may be a reasonable exception). If all else and it's possible, upgrade the drive used to a 3.5". Some systems can do this easily some can with some programming work, some cannot easily be modded. Above all else keep media in a cool dry place, avoid direct sunlight. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 24 09:54:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <00b401bfdded$8bc9a960$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Would that mean that a "shared" (I realize that back in 1988, shared disk >drives were probably not generally available - and if they were would probably >have cost more than extra distributions of the software) disk drive could have >been used at one location connected by "short" cables to many computers? Ah but, they were available, LAPLINK, lantastic and ohers were around. It wasn't cheap but the SHARE.EXE was part of dos 3.3 and later. Compared to the costs of large disks then the price was appealing. >OR as an alternative, it would seem to be very possible to use a server >which had the only disk copy and execute the software on each local >computer by the many students reading the book from different positions >at the same table? Overhead projector? Schools used them. >But aside from such considerations, the general substance of the license >was that Borland, even in 1988, was trusting large companies to have >purchased sufficient copies of the software. PLUS, once purchased, there >was no attempt of any kind to prevent a user from transferring the right to >use the software to a different user on either the same hardware - if the >computer system was sold - OR on even a completely different, but >compatible, computer system so long as the original software was no >longer installed and being used on the first computer system. True but you left out one thing. Their total goal was a Plain Engilsh license. I read the DELPHI-5 (current) and it's understandable. Read some of the MS licences or others and time for an asprin. >For instance, if Microsoft had gained monopoly control of the internet via its >browser and wanted to stop a boycott of its operating systems, all email >urging such a boycott could end up being "lost" for some unexplained "reason". They are close with MSN being a backbone and IE being part of the OS. For some here that may remember. Back when, There was ABC TV, ABC FM radio and even ABC AM radio, all one company and network (same for NBC, CBS). The FCC saw fit to break that up as it represented a monopoly on communications. Yet we have MS (OS, APPS, content and Browser), MSN their network, and so on. Think about it. As to Mentec, a simple low cost non commercial license for what ever OS/Apps they currently own copyright to would be nice. Further a package of media, manuals and license for current (or one back versions) non commercial without support for a reasonable price would be attractive. then again I have no idea of the current price of a copy of RT-11 (Docs, media and commercial license) goes for. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 24 10:04:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A Message-ID: <00b501bfdded$8cc5bca0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >I would appreciate some help from anyone who knows >about the difference between a: > >TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. The long and short of it is nearly none and everything. the are the same mechanically, same boards, same drive same for everything save two things... SCSI address and one does not talk modern SCSI software protocal. IE: the difference is firmware on the SCSI to TK50 board. FYI: one is specifically for MV2000 and the other is useable on many later SCSI systems (other than MV2000). What I've forgotten is which is which. Allison From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Jun 24 13:49:22 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Message-ID: <32672228@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000624/659f8fbf/attachment.bin From mrdos at swbell.net Sat Jun 24 14:45:26 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Message-ID: <000f01bfde14$bf782ee0$b3893cd8@compaq> I think that the original idea behind that compartment was that TI would release vocabulary modules that would fit in there, but I could be wrong. I saw a working TI-99 at a thrift store yesterday. It has a power supply, but I didn't get it because I already have one. I'll see if I can pick it up tomorrow. If so, you can have the power supply. -----Original Message----- From: Marion Bates To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 2:03 PM Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Heya, I recently picked up a TI-99/4A at the local thrift store, but couldn't find the power cable. Anyone got a spare or know where I might look online to find one? Also, I found with it the voice synthesis module. Like the Intellivision, it's a pass-through cartridge thing, but there's a flip-up door and some sort of compartment in it -- what the heck is THAT for? Thanks... -- MB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000624/b5908a30/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 24 14:17:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at Jun 23, 0 08:51:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000624/75a41b10/attachment.ksh From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Jun 24 21:39:47 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where to get ancient media Message-ID: <3a.6ef3f30.2686caf3@aol.com> Just a note to the group: Maxell still produces 5.25" DS/DD media with a "lifetime" warranty. (Lifetime of what -- me or the diskette???) They are available for $5 per box of ten from MCM Electronics: www.mcmelectronics.com or 1-800-543-4330 As Allison mentioned, the diskettes will probably outlast the drives! Regards, Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 24 22:04:17 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > DD drives or that DD disks can be used in HD drives _as HD disks_ (most > HD drives can also handle DD disks, but only to store the amount of data > that you'd get from a DD drive anyway). One word of caution regarding the use of DD disks in HD drives: it's been my experience that which this may appear to work, problems sometimes arise when one attempts to read the data written in a DD disk by an HD drive. It's only reliable as long as you're using the same drive; on quite a few occasions over the years I've had this happen when attempting this. So, it's safest to write to DD disks with DD drives, although this should be readable by any HD drive. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 24 22:10:04 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <00b301bfdded$8b02fe00$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > If all else and it's possible, upgrade the drive used to a 3.5". Some Not necessarily a good idea. 3.5" floppies aren't as durable as 5-1/4" floppies. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ernestls at home.com Sat Jun 24 23:56:54 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000623155238.3b8fbeba@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? Just curious, Ernest From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 24 23:09:45 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Jun 25 00:29:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. >It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? > >Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( You could give it a try on your grammophone. ;) Hard to guess what is worth keeping, otherwise people would keep it. I found what I "thought" would be a GREAT RESCUE, a small stack of still sealed brand new RCA CED video discs. No interest. I may give them one last chance on eBay, but I have a long list of stuff on a similar "death row". Of course I will be posting my list a couple places as well. Stay tuned MAJOR clearing out between now and the weekend of 7/8 (7/8 is our once a year garage sale day in Condo Hell). From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jun 25 00:42:32 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A In-Reply-To: <00b501bfdded$8cc5bca0$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000624224136.00c80780@208.226.86.10> At 11:04 AM 6/24/00 -0400, you wrote: > >TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. -GA can be made to work on any SCSI-1 bus (I've got two) -FA only works on the MV2000 (AFAIK) --Chuck From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 25 01:23:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer References: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <004401bfde6d$f04f65c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Hi, Ernest: You'll get a lot of answers to this one, but a lot depends on the definition of "better" that you use. I've recently been fiddling with techniques for taking what was, back in 1982, considered a pretty good implementation of the general case of Z80 application, e.g. the Ferguson Big Board, which used the standard Z80, and NOT the Z80-A which ran at 4 MHz instead of the standard Z80's 2.5 MHz. I've got a number of these boards so I can test the various mod's separately, and ultimately intend to use the on-board 20 MHz clock to drive a faster Z80 with the existing peripherals, since they are used relatively seldom, with the exception of the video circuitry, but that doesn't use any of the sadly inadequate Z80 peripheral devices. The Z80 SBC market was driven mainly by two factors, namely memory speed, and device cost. The Z80 was pretty cheap in itself, but its peripherals, which people in general had decided were pretty good, (I wasn't one of them, by the way.) Because of the hype put into the support chips, they were used in place of potentially better chips because they did make the design dirt simple and the supported some features that other devices didn't support, e.g. Z80 mode-2 interrupts. With today's technology you can build a board with all the capabilities of the Ferguson BigBoard, i.e four parallel ports four serial ports, local video and using a parallel keyboard rather than a terminal, using a single device, i.e. an FPGA or CPLD (take your pick)and one memory IC. When you're done, you 'll have a CPU that operates at about 25 MHz, a double/single density FDC, the parallel and serial capabilities and other features of the Ferguson board. I don't know whether the result will be better. At the one-of prices (typically 1000x the advertised price) for Xilinx FPGA's capable of this, the device won't be cheaper and unless you go to pretty high volume, that won't change significantly with other FPGA makers. CPLD's are typically much less costly, costing maybe $350 @Q1 for a device capable of doing the whole job aside from memory. If you roll your own, you can probably improve somewhat on the 25 MHz, going maybe as far as 50, but probably not with a Z80 architecture, and certainly not if you stick with the rather complex logic provided but not needed in the Z80 SIO. Since I was a logic designer back in the early days of the Z80, I have to say we can design better circuits today even when we use the technology available back then. My assertion, of course, is that we can, indeed, make a better computer, regardles of what your definition of "better" happens to be, provided that we know in advance what that target is. This is true because using the newer technology has taught us a lot and because we've had 20+ years' additional experience. If we capitalize on the later packaging technology we can make the devices smaller, and using newer power-supply technology, we can cut down on power consumption by using fewer external supplies and using the newer manufacturing technology, we can reduce overall power consumption. In 1979, we had all the LSI/MSI/SSI devices that were used in the best applications of the early-mid '80's. We also had the small surface mount technology, though not the memory density of the '82-83 timeframe. The "fast" Z80 in 1979 was the 'A' version, while, by 1981, there was the 6 MHz 'B' version. Unfortunately there was no complete support peripheral set until somewhat later. In '82 they came out with an 8 MHz "H" version. This was never supported with peripherals until the CMOS versions came along. Those 1979 models work as well today as they ever did. With I/O limitations imposed on PC's, I'm looking to use my old S-100 boxes once more for the measurement and control systems I build from time to time. Condensed versions of these old timers may come back. . . . Probably not, but who knows. Now, what was it you wanted to "improve? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernest To: Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 10:56 PM Subject: Building a better "old" computer > > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > Just curious, > > Ernest > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 25 01:31:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where to get ancient media In-Reply-To: <3a.6ef3f30.2686caf3@aol.com> Message-ID: >Just a note to the group: > >Maxell still produces 5.25" DS/DD media with a "lifetime" warranty. >(Lifetime of what -- me or the diskette???) Third possibility, as long as their producing it and have any in stock :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun Jun 25 03:19:05 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: ; from Mike Ford on Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:29:22PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000625011904.C5850@electron.quantum.int> On Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:29:22PM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > >I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. > >It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? > > > >Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( I don't even remember what the music was like on that movie... but I've got some stuff I want to convert to digital format one of these days. I need a good quality A/D converter, better than the typical soundcard. The "professional" ones are too pricey. An old DAT might be OK, maybe even if it's got tape transport problems the A/D would still be useable. I got the Tangerine Dream Phaedra LP, in really good condition, thinking that was a score, and then realized I already had it on CD. Doh! I wonder if the LP sounds any better on a good player. > > Hard to guess what is worth keeping, otherwise people would keep it. I > found what I "thought" would be a GREAT RESCUE, a small stack of still > sealed brand new RCA CED video discs. No interest. I may give them one last > chance on eBay, Huh? those should do OK on ebay I would think. What movies are they? I've got a CED player but I don't think it works. A friend bought it, took it apart, and it wasn't working anymore when he put it back together, so he gave it to me. :-( I'm looking for a laserdisk player, since I got the Star Wars trilogy that way (since it's not out on DVD). -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Jun 25 05:36:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <20000625011904.C5850@electron.quantum.int> References: ; from Mike Ford on Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:29:22PM -0700 Message-ID: >I don't even remember what the music was like on that movie... but I've >got some stuff I want to convert to digital format one of these days. >I need a good quality A/D converter, better than the typical soundcard. >The "professional" ones are too pricey. An old DAT might be OK, maybe >even if it's got tape transport problems the A/D would still be useable. >I got the Tangerine Dream Phaedra LP, in really good condition, thinking >that was a score, and then realized I already had it on CD. Doh! I >wonder if the LP sounds any better on a good player. IMHO you need a rig with "original anyway" pricetag of around a minimum of $5,000 to extract the best the LP has to offer. By rig I mean the turntable, arm, cartridge, and phono preamp, and spending the money is no gaurantee of the performance, just what money spent wisely can acchieve. A really quite good ADC OTOH is maybe $2,000. Here are the results of some fair testing of soundcards. http://www.rockpark.com/soundcards/intro.htm >Huh? those should do OK on ebay I would think. What movies are they? I'll run my full deathlist past the whole group, off the top of my head I remember at least "My Favorite Year". From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Jun 25 11:48:52 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: Hello Ernest On 24-Jun-00, you wrote: > > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > Just curious, > > Ernest IMHO, it should be possible, if they wanted to build one. But the proliferation of wintel boxes proves that the market moved elsewhere. I think VW found that out when they phased out the original Beetle. The new Mexican built Beetles are better than the ones from the 50's and 60's but do you really want one that bad? Or another example is vacuum tubes. The only place they still thrive today is in esoteric audio amplifiers. Look at the prices of them though . . . > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 06:45:13 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: RA81 problem :( Message-ID: I haven't used my MicroVAX II in some time, and one of it's RA81s wont spin up. It starts to spin, for about 1 second, and then cuts out and, after pressing the 'fault button' it leaves the fault light on and the 'B' light flashing. According to the RA81 user manual the cause is 'spin error' (I could probably have told _them_ that ;-). Can anyone give me any advice on whether it is possible to resurrect the HDA? If not, I have another drive which has no fans so I can make a good one out of the two but the one which has gone down contains my only copy of VMS. Is it drag in the bearings which is causing it to cut out whilst the motor is accelerating it? If so is it possible to lubricate them without opening up the HDA? -- Regards Pete From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 07:07:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <014f01bfdea0$2de0e3f0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, >would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the >same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? Yes. Though finding the parts would be hard. >I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what >they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it >better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to >do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? For pre micro processor... there were designs that did thig with transistors and later SSI that were way ahead of the pack so the answer was yes and no also. For the z80 case: Yes and no. Some designs the designer was doing the best they could though the parts were more capable. Many cases the goal was to meet a price so that limits you. There were some very capable designs. But, using the same parts you could have done better then assuming the budget (size, power, $$$$) allowed it. Can you do better now using current parts and reusing old z80s, yes. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 07:21:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <015001bfdea0$2e85fd90$7264c0d0@ajp166> >of "better" that you use. I've recently been fiddling with techniques for >taking what was, back in 1982, considered a pretty good implementation of >the general case of Z80 application, e.g. the Ferguson Big Board, which used >the standard Z80, and NOT the Z80-A which ran at 4 MHz instead of the >standard Z80's 2.5 MHz. I've got a number of these boards so I can test the In 1982 that was a low end example. DECs VT180 was a 4 serial port, 4mhz, no wait states With DD floppy design. It was ment to go in a VT100 so video was not needed. My NS* S100 crate in 1978 was running at 4mhz even. In the z80 world there were those that used Z80 peripherals and live with the limits they imposed and those that went with other parts. What was the limits? Price, they were not cheap and they were SLOW. By 1982 a Z80 not running at at least 4mhz was considered slow and by 1983 that would be 6mhz. Parts existed to do that. >in place of potentially better chips because they did make the design dirt >simple and the supported some features that other devices didn't support, >e.g. Z80 mode-2 interrupts. Mode 2 was supportable without Z80 parts, easy and cheap to do. >the Ferguson BigBoard, i.e four parallel ports four serial ports, local >video and using a parallel keyboard rather than a terminal, using a single >device, i.e. an FPGA or CPLD (take your pick)and one memory IC. When you're >done, you 'll have a CPU that operates at about 25 MHz, a double/single >density FDC, the parallel and serial capabilities and other features of the >Ferguson board. I don't know whether the result will be better. Try a Z180 part at 33mhz, SCC or other all on one chip like the SMC92667 and static ram on a 3x4" board. Takes very little glue to do that. The question goes mroe to price and creative engineering. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 06:31:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) Message-ID: <014b01bfdea0$2aef9060$7264c0d0@ajp166> Well you left out all the caveats. I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives. Allison -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 11:06 PM Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) >On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: >> DD drives or that DD disks can be used in HD drives _as HD disks_ (most >> HD drives can also handle DD disks, but only to store the amount of data >> that you'd get from a DD drive anyway). > >One word of caution regarding the use of DD disks in HD drives: it's >been my experience that which this may appear to work, problems >sometimes arise when one attempts to read the data written in a DD disk >by an HD drive. It's only reliable as long as you're using the same >drive; on quite a few occasions over the years I've had this happen when >attempting this. So, it's safest to write to DD disks with DD drives, >although this should be readable by any HD drive. > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 06:33:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <014c01bfdea0$2bab8d60$7264c0d0@ajp166> No your wrong. I have an AMPROLB, Kaypro (with Turborom) and a VT180 board set up that way. If you having problems with 3.5" media, stop using recycled AOL disks and trash out the bad drives. Allison -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 11:12 PM Subject: Re: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? >On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: >> If all else and it's possible, upgrade the drive used to a 3.5". Some > >Not necessarily a good idea. 3.5" floppies aren't as durable as 5-1/4" >floppies. > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > From dwduck2000 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 25 08:29:57 2000 From: dwduck2000 at earthlink.net (John Duarte) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Tech Support Fun References: <3.0.1.16.20000622160148.0b4f9094@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000e01bfdea9$7cc52f40$7f151d3f@pavilion> George, that was some good stuff. So I guess I did open it. The One The ONLY, The Biffer From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 08:48:57 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE7F@TEGNTSERVER> > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an excellent "old" new computer. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 08:52:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE80@TEGNTSERVER> > Well you left out all the caveats. > > I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives > are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them > jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this > mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives. Does setting that jumper cause them to write double-tracks, then (as ISTR that the HD drives wrote tracks that were half-width, and someone used to sell a software package that wrote an HD-width track, stepped the head, then wrote an adjacent HD-width track to create pseudo-DD tracks)? Hey, precisely what jumper is that? -doug q From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 25 09:06:58 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer References: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <39561202.4DC7A253@ix.netcom.com> Even better.. Today you could use one of the modern chips (pentium) to emulate the Z80, probably at unheard of speeds, with full access to all the internal registers (after all the pentium would be keeping those registers in memory somewhere..) You could build a machine with a live control panel, ie you can examine and deposit to memory while a program is running. Using original parts we may not be able to make a better computer than then, but using modern parts, perhaps we can make it smaller and faster, even using a Z80 memory is denser (and cheaper) today than then, right? Ernest wrote: > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > Just curious, > > Ernest From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 25 10:39:17 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer References: Message-ID: <395627A5.2345F927@roanoke.infi.net> Can't let the vacuum tube comment pass without tossing in a couple of cents worth of my own. Tubes are indeed alive and well. There are numerous new production tubes available these days [Chinese, Russian and several Middle European plants], as well as MILLIONS of old stock stuff still kicking around. My area of speciality is WW I Navy equipment and it is not a huge problem to find New/Old Stock tubes from the 1918- 1920 period at reasonable [sorta,that is] prices. Lots of activity in restoring old radios, audio gear and vintage test equipment. The "high-end" esoteric audio field is only the lunatic fringe of tube technology. Lots of activity in more moderate priced stuff. Just as many guys find pleasure in restoring and using older tube audio gear as do those playing with old computers. Probably a fair number more actually. Craig Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > Hello Ernest > > On 24-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > > > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building > computers, > > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with > what > > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do > it > > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > > > Just curious, > > > > Ernest > > IMHO, it should be possible, if they wanted to build one. But the > proliferation of wintel boxes proves that the market moved elsewhere. I > think VW found that out when they phased out the original Beetle. The new > Mexican built Beetles are better than the ones from the 50's and 60's but do > you really want one that bad? > > Or another example is vacuum tubes. The only place they still thrive today > is in esoteric audio amplifiers. Look at the prices of them though . . . > > > > > Regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 25 10:39:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE7F@TEGNTSERVER>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE7F@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000625113918.A15463@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an >excellent "old" new computer. Actually last time I checked, you could only *order* that machine, not buy one, as they didn't/don't exist yet (still debugging the prototype). And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different machine stuck in a familiar-looking box. So it doesn't address the original poster's point of building a better-than-1979 machine using 1979 components. Re that idea, a couple of things leap to mind: - Backplane busses could have been done a lot more carefully, e.g. differential signal pairs, or at the very least O.C. with terminators at both ends (worked well for the Unibus). - Doing fancy timing (e.g. RAS-CAS) using RC delays, one-shots, analog delay lines, lots of gates in series etc. was a Bad Idea. Using a few flip-flops clocked by a fast xtal clock might require an extra chip or two, but once you get it working it will keep on working. - SCSI-1/SCSI-2, IDE, and probably other supposedly "modern" interfaces could have been done with 1979 parts. At the time, the expense of giving each peripheral its own CPU (or microcontroller at least) would have been prohibitive, but if money were no object it would have been nice to have some more open standards catch on, since the market was pretty fragmented for no good reason. Floppies were absolute hell in this regard too. - Things might have been more stable if microcomputers had separated the ideas of "CPU bus" and "peripheral bus" earlier on. For the longest time, the peripheral bus was always just a buffered version of the CPU bus, which led to lots of timing problems and incompatibilities when you changed to a different or faster CPU. But having something that's easy to interface and has simple timing, like what the ISA bus became (after having the same problem for a while), would have been a good thing, as long as it's clear that this bus is for things *other* than main memory and the main system disk drive. It's nice being able to build a fancy slow peripheral (ADC, ROM burner, whatever) just once and use it for 20 years. - Something like PCI plug & play, only greatly simplified, would have been a very nice thing, so that software would always have an easy way to find out the hardware config by just asking. This could just be a small PROM with some kind of radial select mechanism. John Wilson D Bit From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 25 11:08:14 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Find Update Message-ID: <009b01bfdebf$91d776c0$e1721fd1@default> Well finally got all of the stuff off the van and into storage, plus picked up some other goodies at the thrift's in the last couple days. Here the short list minus items not 10 years old or older. 1. Apple RGB monitor model A9M0308 2. Computereyes Video Digitizer B/W for the Mac 3. Box full Apple cards for the Apple II series. 4. Box of early Mac mice and cables 5. HP Thinkjet model 2225D 6. Kodak DataShow in box cat # 809-3346 7. TI Silent 700 Data Terminal with the adapter not tested yet. 8. HP Apollo model 715/50 9. IBM 3196 Display Station Problem Solving Guide 10. Another HP 9144 16 Track model 9144A 11. HPJet Direct cart 12. Epson (HX20) mod for 3M and renamed Myocare Plus Programmer model 6800 with a strange cable made by LEMO. 13. DiskDrive Exerciser by Magnetic Peripherals with the following numbers on it; TB-118A, PN 77833135E, Series code 02. No power supply with it and it looks to have a strange connector. Anyone know about this unit ? Again that's the short list due ages of other items, so it turned out to be a good week for collecting. John Keys From transit at lerctr.org Sun Jun 25 11:11:01 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth In-Reply-To: <32672228@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: On 24 Jun 2000, Marion Bates wrote: > > Also, I found with it the voice synthesis module. Like the Intellivision, it's a > pass-through cartridge thing, but there's a flip-up door and some sort of > compartment in it -- what the heck is THAT for? > TI, at one time, was planning to offer additional speech words through plug-in rom modules. (The basic Speech Synthesizer only has about 250 words in it). TI changed its mind, and offered additional words via the "Terminal Emulator" cartridge. From wanderer at bos.nl Sun Jun 25 13:09:36 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator Message-ID: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl> Hello All, When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock option and then mount it under RSX, it complains, telling me that it is an alignment pack! Is there a way to get around this problem? Using FMT does not help either, a similar message is returned. When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 11:16:00 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER> > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg > >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) > >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an > >excellent "old" new computer. > > Actually last time I checked, you could only *order* that machine, not > buy one, as they didn't/don't exist yet (still debugging the prototype). > And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different > machine stuck in a familiar-looking box. So it doesn't address the > original poster's point of building a better-than-1979 machine using > 1979 components. Point to John: the machine offered for sale is called an IMSAI Series Two, not an IMSAI 8080. However, its arguable that many existing IMSAI 8080s ceased being IMSAI 8080s when the owners stuck in a Cromemco ZPU, a TDL Z-80 CPU board, or somesuch. However, quoting from the main web page: : Delivery is currently 6 to 8 weeks from the date of order. : Please check with us for confirmation of shipping date. : : Assembled IMSAI products are shipped factory assembled : and supplied with a no-hassle two-year warranty on parts : and labor UNLESS specified otherwise. See the warranty : details on our ORDER page. Now, I don't have a kilobuck laying around with which to test these statements. But as to my original statement, clearly, people spending $1200 for an original either have little interest in running the thing, or, at very least, want an "original" more so that they can say it is an "original" over and above its value as a working system. If its value as a working system is more important, they'll consider buying the Series Two. And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer field, and I think I'll have to write up my experience with Processor Technology and the Sol as an example of this (I still have all the "soon" letters I got from them). regards, doug quebbeman From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 10:23:18 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Guy needs help building collection in UK Message-ID: Can anyone in the UK help this guy out? Reply-to: dh8987mary3@netscapeonline.co.uk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:46:50 -0700 From: DAVID HOLDSWORTH Subject: VCF Feedback! i would like to ask if any one in the uk could donate any old computers to my small colection.as i aam dissabled and i love old pc.s computers of any kind .i also collect old radios dating back to 1945 especially valved radios working or not.please help if you can thankss my phone no is 01493 300955 . uk Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:11:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <002201bfdebb$aa77c5d0$7564c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:55 AM Subject: RE: Building a better "old" computer >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an >excellent "old" new computer. First Z280 didn't need bank switch as it had a 24bit MMU. Second if it has Z280 production would be hard as Zilong endof lifed it some 6 years ago. Likely is Z180 or Z380. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:20:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) Message-ID: <002301bfdebb$ab30b590$7564c0d0@ajp166> From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:56 AM Subject: RE: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) >> I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives >> are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them >> jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this >> mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives. ^^^^^^^^^^ I repeat for the impaired 96 TPI. > >Does setting that jumper cause them to write double-tracks, NO. >then (as ISTR that the HD drives wrote tracks that were >half-width, and someone used to sell a software package Yes, thats the ppoint of using 96TPI drives... to get more tracks. >that wrote an HD-width track, stepped the head, then >wrote an adjacent HD-width track to create pseudo-DD >tracks)? You can but, the reliability of the read data sucks to be blunt. I said that you ccan do this in an earlier post if you needed some special project hack to get you by. I don't as a good 48tpi drive does a far better job and swapping it is no big deal. I used 5.25 96tpi two sided double density for one reason easy to get and use storage space. That mode does 720 or 782k depening on the formatting were an older 48tpi drive will do 360k. Where 1.2mb used funky media, data rates and all that are not easily found on NON-PC systems. Back in the old days using DD on a 96tpi drive was called QD. >Hey, precisely what jumper is that? I ave five different versions of the FD55-GF drives and they are all different. So I did a lot of guessing and tried them until it worked. A manual would have helped. I also ahve a few FD55Fs (also 96tpi DD two sided without ability to do the oddball 1.2mb format). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:31:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <002401bfdebb$abfa6e30$7564c0d0@ajp166> >Even better.. Today you could use one of the modern chips (pentium) to emulate >the Z80, probably at unheard of speeds, with full access to all the internal >registers (after all the pentium would be keeping those registers in memory >somewhere..) You could and then you have one of the Z80 emulators. >Using original parts we may not be able to make a better computer than then, but >using modern parts, perhaps we can make it smaller and faster, even using a Z80 >memory is denser (and cheaper) today than then, right? using a standard Z84C010 (cmos 10mhz) and common cache rams I could easily do a z80 1mb 10mhz machine. It's not hard. Use a Z180S00 and 33mhz is possible. With cheap, dense fast static memory most of the old designs get real simple and can go faster. The best example is a proto I've build using a Z84C50 (z80/10mhz with clock + wait state management, 1k ram) in a clone of the amproLB using static ram (eliminates 15 DIPS) making is a fairly bare board. It runs at 8mhz due to limits in the SIO and CTC parts I had. I wanted it to run the same boot and BIOS so I used what I had. If I were to do the latest and greatest I'd go with Z380 as it will run Z80 native and make the IO a z180 slave, then the only limits would eb the how fast can the Z380 go (20mhz is common part and it executes Z80 instructions in about half the clocks). Allison > >Ernest wrote: > >> Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, >> would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the >> same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? >> >> I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what >> they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it >> better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to >> do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? >> >> Just curious, >> >> Ernest > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:39:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <002501bfdebb$acb64420$7564c0d0@ajp166> >Actually last time I checked, you could only *order* that machine, not >buy one, as they didn't/don't exist yet (still debugging the prototype). >And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different >machine stuck in a familiar-looking box. So it doesn't address the >original poster's point of building a better-than-1979 machine using >1979 components. Amen! >- Backplane busses could have been done a lot more carefully, e.g. > differential signal pairs, or at the very least O.C. with terminators > at both ends (worked well for the Unibus). Actually the S100 was cleaned up a bit and would run nicely at 8mb/s for split or 16mb/s for unified word mode. But multibus and STDbus were already better standards. >- Doing fancy timing (e.g. RAS-CAS) using RC delays, one-shots, analog delay > lines, lots of gates in series etc. was a Bad Idea. Using a few flip-flops > clocked by a fast xtal clock might require an extra chip or two, but once > you get it working it will keep on working. The better boards did that, alone with 4layer etch. Dram and two layers was at best problematic. >- SCSI-1/SCSI-2, IDE, and probably other supposedly "modern" interfaces > could have been done with 1979 parts. At the time, the expense of giving > each peripheral its own CPU (or microcontroller at least) would have been > prohibitive, but if money were no object it would have been nice to have > some more open standards catch on, since the market was pretty fragmented > for no good reason. Floppies were absolute hell in this regard too. Typical system with a HD in the 79-81 timeframe liekly had two CPUs one for the HD alone! Teletek, Konan for example. There wer floppy cards with local cpu too to further unburden the main cpu. >- Things might have been more stable if microcomputers had separated the > ideas of "CPU bus" and "peripheral bus" earlier on. For the longest time, > the peripheral bus was always just a buffered version of the CPU bus, depends on the bus std. Multibus and STDbus for example. > which led to lots of timing problems and incompatibilities when you > changed to a different or faster CPU. But having something that's easy > to interface and has simple timing, like what the ISA bus became (after > having the same problem for a while), would have been a good thing, as ISA was multibus with broken interrupts and no bus ack handshake, same timing and interface otherwise. More interesting formfactor though. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 11:44:11 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE84@TEGNTSERVER> > >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg > >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) > >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an > >excellent "old" new computer. > > First Z280 didn't need bank switch as it had a 24bit MMU. Second if > it has Z280 production would be hard as Zilong endof lifed it some 6 > years ago. > > Likely is Z180 or Z380. You're right, it's Z180, I wrote that part of the post before doublechecking the web page, then didn't edit the earlier writing. -dq From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sun Jun 25 12:15:22 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Message-ID: <32682846@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: TI, at one time, was planning to offer additional speech words through plug-in rom modules. (The basic Speech Synthesizer only has about 250 words in it). TI changed its mind, and offered additional words via the "Terminal Emulator" cartridge. --- end of quote --- Wow -- I need to take another look. Owen said the same thing yesterday, and like I told him, I can't even see where a plug-in module would make contact with anything but plastic. Weird. Thanks for the info! -- MB From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 25 14:05:49 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo's message of "Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:06:05 -0400" References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> <3.0.2.32.20000619000605.006b9ee0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200006251905.MAA49694@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Carlos Murillo wrote: > Well, I made the cable and plugged it into a terminal. The > right voltages appear on the correct lines. However, > the card never asserts DTR or RTS when I turn the computer on. I think that makes sense -- it looks like DTR and RTS are under program control (i.e. it's up to software to set the appropriate control register bits). > I also discovered that the HD in the 7946 is busted > (haven't opened it yet)-the "online" light doesn't come on, > but the "fault" light does. It seems to have trouble > spinning up. So, loading an OS is out of the question > for a while. Is it possible to at least run some tests > and have it output diagnostics to one of the BACI cards? I suspect it depends on what loader ROMs are installed in the computer. There is a loader ROM that supports booting from cartridge tape drives in an attached 264X terminal. In the meantime, I've keyed in the sample program from the manual (at the end of this message). Turning it into executable code and loading that into the 1000E is left as an exercise for the reader, at least 'til I find time to figure out how to do that sort of thing. Others who know are welcome to chime in! > There is a sheet of paper glued to the front panel with instructions > on how to reboot the system; it says to load the S/s register > with ones in bits 15,14,9, and 6, then hit the store, preset, > some other button, then preset again and finally the run button. Unfortunately, most of the 21xx documentation I have here at home right now is for 2100s, not 21MXs (which are a whole lot closer to 1000s), so I'm just guessing as to what that tells the machine to do, but I expect it's instructions for selecting a given loader ROM (and maybe device) and starting the boot. So...I'll try to keep this in mind for the next foray into storage. What I probably need to look for is the 21MX or 1000 E-Series operating and reference manual, instead of the installation and service manual that I have in front of me. --- cut here --- ASMB,A,B,L,T ORG 100B * ****12966 SAMPLE PROGRAM************************* *THE PROGRAM BEGINS BY CLEARING ALL ADDRESSES OF THE *SPECIAL CHARACTER RAM TO ZEROS.THE 12966 THEN IS *ENABLED TO RECEIVE MODE,1200 BAUD.THE USER ENTERS A *MINIMUM OF 64 CHARACTERS FROM THE TERMINAL KEYBOARD *(HP2640 OR SIMILAR TERMINAL). WHEN BUFFER HALF FULL *(64 CHARS.) IS DETECTED,THE CHARS. ARE TRANSFER FROM *THE FIFO BUFFER OF THE 12966 TO THE CPU. WHEN THIS *TRANSFER IS COMPLETE THE CPU HALTS (HLT 01).THE USER *PRESSES 'PRESET' & 'RUN', THE 12966 GOES INTO THE *TRANSMIT MODE. THE CPU BUFFER (64 CHARS.) IS SENT TO *THE 12966 FIFO BUFFER. WHEN THIS TRANSFER IS COMPLETED *THE 12966 TRANSMITS TO THE TERMINAL UNTIL BUFFER EMPTY *STATUS FLAG SETS. THE CPU NOW HALTS (HLT 02),PRESSING *'RUN' RESETARTS THE PROGRAM. * * A EQU 0 B EQU 1 SCT EQU 12B 12966 IS IN SELECT CODE 12B SAVA BSS 1 SAVB BSS 1 COUNT BSS 1 SIZE DEC 64 64 CHARACTERS BHF OCT 1000 CW3 OCT 030023 CW4R OCT 040011 CW4T OCT 140411 CW5 OCT 050077 CW6 OCT 060000 PAT OCT 777 DAB. DEF DAB CLEAR OCT 060400 ORG 1000B DAB BSS 400 * * ORG 200B START LDA CW4T MASTER RESET,INITIALIZE TRANSMIT OTA SCT LDA CW6 CLEAR OUT SPECIAL CHAR RAM R1 OTA SCT INA CPA CLEAR CHECK IF SPECIAL CHAR RAM IS CLEAR RSS YES IT IS,CONTINUE WITH PROGRAM JMP R1 NO IT ISN'T,CONTINUE CLEARING OVER LDA SIZE SETUP AND INITIALIZE CHAR COUNTER CMA,INA 2'S COMP. STA COUNT LDA CW5 LOAD WORD 5,CLEAR FLAGS OTA SCT LDA CW3 LOAD WORD 3,1 STOP BIT,8 DATA BITS OTA SCT ECHO ON,NO PARITY LDA CW4R LOAD WORD 4,RECEIVE MODE,1200 BAUD OTA SCT CHECK STC SCT,C SET CONTROL 12966 SFS SCT CHECK IF STATUS FLAG SET JMP *-1 NO,NONE IS SET,CONTINUE CLC SCT YES,FLAG HAS SET LIA SCT GET STATUS WORD AND BHF CHECK FOR BUFFER HALF FULL SZA,RSS JMP CHECK BHF NOT SET AS YET LDA CW5 BHF SET,CLEAR STATUS FLAGS OTA SCT LDB DAB. SETUP CPU BUFFER ADDRESS STC SCT,C SET CONTROL 12966 T1 LIA SCT GET A CHARACTER FROM FIFO AND PAT MASK OUT UNWANTED BITS STA B,I STORE CHAR INTO CPU BUFFER INB ISZ COUNT INCREMENT COUNT,COUNT=64? JMP T1 NO,GET NEXT CHARACTER HLT 01 YES,CPU BUFFER IS FULL ***PRESS 'PRESET' AND 'RUN' TO PUT 12966 INTO TRANSMIT *MODE. * NOP LDA CW4T SETUP 12966 TO TRANSMIT @1200 BAUD OTA SCT LDA CW5 CLEAR BUFFERS OTA SCT LDA SIZE SETUP CHAR COUNTER CMA,INA 2'S COMP. STA COUNT LDB DAB. SETUP BUFFER ADDRESS STC SCT,C T2 LDA B,I GET A CHARACTER OTA SCT PUT IT IN THE FIFO BUFFER INB ISZ COUNT INCREMENT COUNT,COUNT=64? JMP T2 NO GET NEXT CHAR!!! LDA CW5 YES,LOAD W TO CLEAR BUFF OTA SCT HALF FULL STC SCT,C SET CONTROL,START TRANSMIT SFS SCT IS BUFFER EMPTY? JMP *-1 NO,CONTINUE SENDING HLT 02 YES, IT IS EMPTY,HALT CPU!! JMP START RESTART 12966 END --- cut here --- -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 25 14:50:36 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: "R. D. Davis"'s message of "Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:55:17 -0400 (EDT)" References: Message-ID: <200006251950.MAA50967@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Well, I've made the initial tests... seems that the problem may be > before the regulators and after the fuse. Since I didn't have a 21W, Based on the following: > Hooking up the VOM, I got a reading of about 3.5mV for the 5V supply > and between that and zero for everything else. So, it's not completely > dead, but, close to it. And, yes, the fan is spinning. ...I think you may be right. The flowchart goes on to ask: "Is >= 0.6 Volts measured from A3A6TP1 to A3A1TP1? WARNING!! Use VM with Floating GND". If the answer to this question is no, you're supposed to replace the preregulator board (A3A1) or the control board (A3A5). Else, the next question is whether fuse A3A6F1 is blown or missing, in which case you're supposed to replace the fuse, else replace transistor A3A6Q1. Then you go back and look for +5V CPU on the crossover board again. How to decode some of those numbers: Leading A3 is the power supply. A1 is the preregulator control board, which is a vertical board plugged into the power supply motherboard just behind the terminal block near the front of the 1000E. A5 is the control board; it's the vertical board all the way at the back of the power supply. A6 is the power supply mother board. A6F1 looks like it should be a fuse a little bit behind A1, and A6Q1 looks like it should be the largish transistor closest to that fuse. > > adjustment is the +5V ADJ potentiometer that is visible on the power > > Does adjusting that make a difference with any of the other voltages? I don't know. The next couple of tests that the flowchart takes you through are simply "is " in tolerance at the crossover board?", and if the answer is "no" then you get to replace a transistor on the power supply motherboard, or in one case the power supply motherboard. > What's the difference between M and I/O in the supply v. column? I think M is the supply that goes to the memory bus, and I/O is the supply that goes to the I/O bus. > Something tells me to leave this pot alone at this point. Yep. > As I don't have a set of schematics, can anyone tell me what to check next? > Meanwhile, I guess I'll go poking around and see what voltages I can find > in various spots. As Tony points out, there is stuff in there that can knock you on your hindquarters or worse, and I'm guessing that's why you're supposed to use a voltmeter with a floating ground in one of those tests above. Be careful. That said, sorry to take so long writing back, just haven't had time or space between my ears to sit here with the manuals and try to figure things out from them. The curse of gainful employment strikes again. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 16:08:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at Jun 24, 0 09:56:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1346 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/f04eb6dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 12:10:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: Where to get ancient media In-Reply-To: <3a.6ef3f30.2686caf3@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 24, 0 10:39:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/b988c14c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 13:16:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:02 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 24, 0 11:04:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 10476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/df21afd2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 16:14:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <014c01bfdea0$2bab8d60$7264c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Jun 25, 0 07:33:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/8f046197/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 16:38:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006251950.MAA50967@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 25, 0 12:50:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/948c8478/attachment.ksh From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Jun 25 17:37:45 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP References: Message-ID: <006801bfdef5$fc5efaa0$d513f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> One of the interesting things (to me) about Tron is that the composer, Wendy Carlos - see www.wendycarlos.com - was formerly known as Walter Carlos prior to gender redesignation procedures. (The whole story of this is laid out in a late 1970s interview in Playboy). She/he originally gained fame for recording "Switched on Bach" in the 1960s - one of the first recordings of classical music on an electronic synthesizer - and later composed the score to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of Tron, Walter had become Wendy. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Classic Computers Mailing List Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 9:09 PM Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP > > I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. > It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? > > Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ----------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 17:22:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <007901bfdef5$214afea0$7564c0d0@ajp166> >to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of >Tron, Walter had become Wendy. Your dates and music are misaligned. the "Walter" was not used during the period and was neither played up or down. It was a itlem of convenience of the record compmanies. However by then it was history. I know as I have all the albums as originals bought when they were originally released and have kept a Yamaha belt drive going for real music. ;) She is one of many talents that took electronics and rather than make Rover howl, did achieve serious music. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 25 18:44:33 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > We went through this shortly before you joined the list ... You've just > prompted me to throw a FAQ together on this. Here goes : Good job, Tony! A few interleaved suggestions (NOT disagreements) for your FAQ: > 5.25" floppy disk Frequently Asked Questions > -------------------------------------------- > 2000 A. R. Duell. Please feel free to distribute this document (on web > sites, ftp sites, mailing lists, etc) provided this notice is intact. > This doecument was written as a response to questions on the classic > computer mailing list regarding the use of various types of 5.25" floppy > disks in various types of drives. It attempts to explain what > combinations work and why. For the moment I am only considering > soft-sectored drives... > > 1) What types of (soft sectored) 5.25" drives are there. > > There are 5 common types : > 48 tpi single sided, double density. These have 40 cylinders (and 40 > tracks). On a PC they'd store 180K bytes "Exact capacity, of course, varied according to certain formatting choices, providing a range from 1600K to 200K. "On some (early) systems particularly those based on the Shugart SA400, only 35 of the tracks were available/used. > 48tpi double sided, double density. These have 40 cylinders (80 tracks > total, one foe each cylinder on each side of the disk). This is the for > common PC 360K drive "Exact capacity, of course, varied according to certain formatting choices, providing a range from 320K to 400K. > 96 tpi, single sided, double density. These have 80 cylinders (and being > single-sided, 80 tracks). These are not common on PCs, but if used there "(not supported by most versions of MS-DOS) > would store 360K. The DEC RX50 is a (double) drive of this type. > > 96 tpi, double sided, double density. Again, they have 80 cylinders (and > thus 160 tracks). On a PC, they'd store 720K, although they're not > commonly found on PCs. "IBM PC-JX appears to be the only IBM model to use them. They were quite common in CP/M and non-IBM-compatible MS-DOS machines. "Exact capacity, of course, varied according to certain formatting choices, providing a range from 640K to 800K. > 96 tpi double density drives are sometimes called 'quad density' units. > > 96 tpi, double sided, high density. This is the PC 1.2Mbyte drive, and is > not commonly used elsewhere. These drives have several differences > compared to the double density version, although the PC controller hides > some of these. "The 1.2M mimics an 8", even to the extent of a 360RPM motor speed, although 8" normally used 77 cylinders and 1.2M uses 80. In some cases, 1.2M 5.25" and 8" drives can be interchanged by making an appropriate cable, however 1.2M often also supports a mode for access of 360K, whereas 8" does not. > 2) What are the real differenced between the various types? > > The difference between single and double sided drives is obvious -- the > double sided drive has an extra head (mounted on top of the disk) and a > switching circuit to select between the 2 heads. In passing at this > point I'll mention that single-sided drives record on the bottom > (non-label side] of the disk and that this is 'side 0' on double sided units > > The differences between 48 tpi and 96 tpi double density drives are again > fairly obvious. The head positioner (mechanism that moves the read/write > head) is designed to move the head only 1/96" per step rather than 1/48". > The actual head in a 96tpi is narrower (radially) than the one in a 48tpi > drive so that it writes a narrower track on the disk (so that adjacent > tracks don't overlap at the closer spacing). > > The high density drive has several differences wrt the 96 tpi double > density unit. Firstly, the spindle motor rotates at 360rpm (at least in > high density mode, see below) rather than the 300rpm that all other > drives rotate at. Also the 'write current' (the electric current passed > through the head coil to write on the disk) is higher in high density > mode so as to be able to write on the special high density disks. These > have a higher coercivity than normal double density disks. > > There is a signal on the interface connector of high density drives (at > least the properly-designed ones) that, when asserted, reduces the write > current to the value used with normal double density disks. In this mode, > the drive will reliably work as a 96 tpi double density unit. In some > drives, asserting this signal will slow the spindle motor down to 300rpm, > in others, it continues to turn at 360rpm and the controller has to > handle a data rate of 6/5 times times the standard 250kbps double > density rate. The IBM PC/AT disk controller is capable of doing this. (300kmps) > 3) What types of disks exist? > > All 5.25" disks that I have ever seen are coated with the magnetic oxide > on both sides. > > A double sided disk means that both sides have been tested and shown to > be reliable for storing data. A single sided disk may be one where the > top side has failed this test (and the bottom side is good) or one which > simply hasn't been tested on both sides. "But the percentage of rejects on decent quality diskettes is low enough that few, if any, manufacturers followed the apocryphal procedure of keeping DS diskettes that failed one side in order to peddle them as single sided. > '80 track' -- 96 tpi -- double density disks do seem to be different from > '40 track' -- 48 tpi ones. I suspect, without proof, that the 96 tpi ones > are lower 'noise' which is important for the narrower tracks used on such > drives. > > The original 5.25" disks were designed to be used in 48tpi drives, since > that's all that there was at the time. Once 96 tpi drives became popular, > many manufacturers starting making all their disks suitable for use in such > drives (it was cheaper for them to have one production line) and sold > them as 'universal' disks, suitable for use in 48 or 96 tpi drives, > single or double sided. > > However, once the IBM PC and PC/AT became the only common computers to > have 5.25" drives, many manufacturers went back to making 48 tpi disks > only, since that was the only double density drive in common use. > Therefore many modern double density (known as '360K disks') are _not_ > reliable in 96tpi drives. > > High density disks are different. Period. The magnetic media has a > different coercivitiy, and it can only be used in the high density drive > _at the high density_. 600 v 300 Oerstedt. > 4) What sorts of blank disks can be used in what drives? > > Double sided disks can always be used in single sided drives. The fact > that the unused side is also perfectly good for storing data doesn't > matter, of course > > 96 tpi double density disks can be used in 48 tpi double density drives. > Again, the disk is 'better' than it needs to be, but that doesn't matter. > > This means that these disks can be used as follows : > disk works in > 96 tpi DS : 96 tpi DS, 96 tpi SS, 48 tpi DS, 48 tpi SS > 96 tpi SS : 96 tpi SS, 48 tpi SS > 48 tpi DS : 48 tpi DS, 48 tpi SS > 48 tpi SS : 48 tpi SS > > For that reason, many manufacturers sold 96 tpi double sided disks as > 'Universal' disks. They could be used in all types of (double density) > drives. > > High density disks are special. They can _only_ be used in high density > drives at the high density format. Similarly, high density drives will > only reliably work in high density mode on such disks. But if the > appropriate signal is asserted, then the high denisty drive behaves like > a 96tpi double sided double density unit, and can use double density disks. > > 5) What combinations may work under some circumstances? > > Single sided disks may work in double sided drives. Firstly, some systems > (many systems?) allow you to format them as single-sided, for which they > are (obviously) suitable. And in many cases the 'other' side of the disk > is perfectly good and the disk can be formatted as double sided. "When the disks were expensive, some people would modify the jacket to make it symmetrical so that the disk could be flipped over to use the other side as an additional single sided disk. Those were sometimes known as "flippies". On PC type systems, that required punching an additional access for the index sensor; on Apple ][ and Commodore, only the write-protect needed to be modified. > 48 tpi disks may be good enough to work in 96tpi drives. My experience > suggests this is not reliable, though. > > 6) What about data interchange? What (already recorded) disks can be read > in what sorts of drives? > > Let's deal with the obvious cases first. A double sided drive can read a > single sided disk. The upper head is simply not used. Similarly, a double > sided drive can write to an already-used single sided disk. > > Another obvious case is that the high density disks can only be used in > high density drives. > > The less obvious case is the 48 tpi versus 96tpi issue. The drives were > designed so that the centre line of alternate 96 tpi cylinders is the same > distance from the spindle as the centre line of each 48 tpi cylinder. > Thus 48 tpi disks can be read in 96 tpi drives if the drive 'double > steps'. Some drives can do this in hardware (there may be a switch marked > 40/80 on the drive casing), some operating systems can handle this. > > Since a high density drive can be 'turned into' a double density drive by > asserting that signal I keep mentioning, a high denisty drive can also > reliably read 48 tpi disks. > > 96 tpi drives writing to 48 tpi disks is a cause of many problems, which > deserves its own section. "Note: remember that "ERASING" a file constitutes a write operation. > 7) What's all this about writing to 48 tpi disks in 96 tpi drives? > > This is perhaps the biggest cause of problems with 5.25" disks. People > write a file to a 48tpi disk using a 96 tpi drive and find that the > result is readable on 96 tpi drives but not on 48 tpi drives. > > Remember that the 96 tpi drive has a narrower head than the 48 tpi drive, > so it writes a narrower track to the disk. > > Suppose we take a totally blank disk and format it on a 48 tpi drive. > This writes 40 tracks on each side of the disk. They may be 'empty' in > the sense that they contain no user data, but they're still recorded. > > Then we write to it on a double-stepping 96 tpi drive. The narrower head > overwrittes the middle band of some tracks, but the edges remain unchanged. > > A 96 tpi drive can read that perfectly well. Its narrow head only 'sees' > the 'new' data down the middle of each track. > > But a 48 tpi drive with its wider head, sees both the old and new data. > The result is a mess that the controller can't decode. So the disk is not > readable on a 48 tpi drive. > > A similar argument shows that the same problem occurs if you take a blank > disk, format it on a double-stepping 96 tpi drive, write some files to it > there, write to it with a 48 tpi drive and then write to it with the > double-stepping 96 tpi drive again. The result is not readable on a 48 tpi > drive. > > In general, if you take a blank disk, format it on a double stepping 96 tpi > drive and write to it there only, the result is readable both 48 tpi and > 96 tpi drives. The narrower tracks generally do provide enough signal for > the wider head on the 48 tpi drive provided there is nothing in the > 'blank' spaces between the tracks. > > The simple rule is : > > * If you ever write to a disk in a 96 tpi drive that has already be * > * written to (including formatting) in a 48 tpi drive then the result * > * may well not be readable in 48 tpi drives. * "Note: blank does NOT mean formatting. The disk must be degaussed, either by bulk erasing, or using a virgin disk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 20:01:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 25, 0 04:44:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 13682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/19eb9c37/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 19:28:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can > say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer > field, and I think I'll have to write up my experience with > Processor Technology and the Sol as an example of this (I > still have all the "soon" letters I got from them). If it is vaporware then it's probably safe to assume that it's simply a matter of Todd Fischer having a lack of time as he is doing on the IMSAI revival stuff in his free time. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 19:35:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <006801bfdef5$fc5efaa0$d513f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of > Tron, Walter had become Wendy. The front of the record advertises "Music by Wendy Carlos", which is why I thought this might be a particular score. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Jun 25 20:56:57 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP References: <007901bfdef5$214afea0$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001901bfdf11$d0423060$f5e9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > >to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of > >Tron, Walter had become Wendy. > > > Your dates and music are misaligned. the "Walter" > was not used during the period and was neither played > up or down. It was a itlem of convenience of the record > compmanies. However by then it was history. > > I know as I have all the albums as originals bought when > they were originally released and have kept a Yamaha > belt drive going for real music. ;) > Well, you should check your original. If it's from 1971, the year Clockwork was released, then it says "Walter." If it's one of the later re-releases, it may say "Wendy." But, clearly, Wendy was Walter in 1971. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 25 22:13:00 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:16:00PM -0400 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000625231300.A16395@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:16:00PM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >> >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg [...] >> And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different >Point to John: the machine offered for sale is called an >IMSAI Series Two, not an IMSAI 8080. Yes, I only said the "8080" because you did. >However, quoting from the main web page: > >: Delivery is currently 6 to 8 weeks from the date of order. >: Please check with us for confirmation of shipping date. It's said that for ages. A couple of months ago I sent email to check the actual shipping date, Todd wrote back saying they were still debugging the design but it ought to be ready in the summer. A couple of weeks ago I sent another message asking if the replacement sheet metal for the 8080 is back in stock yet and haven't heard back, so I'm guessing he's busier than ever working on it, if the boxes were actually ready to go then surely they'd update the web page to say so. But they're *still* using a mockup for the photo! Not a good sign. I'm seriously considering buying one of the boxes if I ever hear that they *have* been released and do work. Something this cool deserves to be supported! >And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can >say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer >field, Sure is. This isn't the right way to evoke feelings of nostalgia in customers though! John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 25 22:19:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator In-Reply-To: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl>; from wanderer@bos.nl on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000 References: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl> Message-ID: <20000625231924.B16395@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock >option and then mount it under RSX, it complains, telling me that >it is an alignment pack! Is there a way to get around this problem? >Using FMT does not help either, a similar message is returned. I just put a compressed blank RM03 at: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.zip and: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.dsk.gz The file is about 64 KB either way, and yields the same empty RM03.DSK image file, which has a correct null bad sector list, and serial # = 12345. It works fine with RSTS DSKINT under Bob's emulator, I assume it will make RSX happy too. >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. With what driver? John Wilson D Bit From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun Jun 25 22:41:33 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <007901bfdef5$214afea0$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <200006260340.e5Q3eet19879@grover.winsite.com> > > She is one of many talents that took electronics and > rather than make Rover howl, did achieve serious music. > > > Allison > > You are absolutely correct on that one, Allison. I read an interview with Bob Moog where he was discussing the early days of synths. After "S-OB" was released and just exploded, everybody and their brother had to have a Moog. Problem was, most of what was produced on them was total crap, probably sounding like what I would do if I couldn't sequence the hell out of something. (Ever hear George Harrison's "Electronic Music"? 'Nuff said.......)(And yes, I know that wasn't George. It was really just the synth salesman noodling and demoing the machine, and George released it under his name. If you have an original copy, you can see the other guy's name before George made the record company print over his name on the jacket......) Bob's comment was that it became very apparent that what made "S-OB" the huge hit that it was wasn't his synth, it was Wendy.... It's even more amazing to listen to that album now and think about the technology that didn't exist back then for sequencing and midi...what she did manually was astounding. She and Larry Fast have always been heroes of mine. Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 25 22:50:09 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:38:27 +0100 (BST)" References: Message-ID: <200006260350.UAA63786@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I'm working even more blindly than usual, so could you give me a clue and > at least describe the basic topology of the PSU. I wish. I don't actually have one of these power supplies in front of me right now, just a couple of so-so printed copies of photos showing what it should look like with the top cover off. One photo for the configuration that supports battery backup, one photo for the configuration that doesn't. You can see the latter (which shows what I think rdd has) at http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/1000E-ps.jpeg -- it's about 50KB. Maybe this will help you more than it helps me. What I don't see in the photos is the big transformer-like hunk of iron that I'd expect in a linear power suppply, and the dark spaces don't look big enough to hold one. So I'm thinking it's a switcher. -Frank McConnell From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 23:18:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > -------------- > 5.25" floppy disk Frequently Asked Questions > -------------------------------------------- Great FAQ! Thanks, Tony! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 23:21:02 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <200006260340.e5Q3eet19879@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: Is it still possible to get Switched on Bach on CD? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 00:41:50 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on this Motorola computer? Message-ID: <000901bfdf31$397f5160$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> Any information, general to specific, on the Motorola model M68SetDS351 all-in-one, dual 5.25 floppy drive, computer will be greatly appreciated. Yes, this is the one on eBay. I'm trying to decide if it is worth the shipping cost. Here's a picture of the machine: http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/motorola.jpg Thanks, Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From wmsmith at earthlink.net Mon Jun 26 01:25:58 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP References: Message-ID: <003f01bfdf37$6503b3c0$f5e9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Is it still possible to get Switched on Bach on CD? > Yes. Check out the Wendy Carlos site under "discography" - www.wendycarlos.com. -W From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 02:50:37 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on this Motorola computer? Some more details. In-Reply-To: <000901bfdf31$397f5160$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <001401bfdf43$37a004e0$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Any information, general to specific, on the Motorola model -> M68SetDS351 all-in-one, dual 5.25 floppy drive, computer -> will be greatly appreciated. -> -> Yes, this is the one on eBay. I'm trying to decide if it is -> worth the shipping cost. -> -> Here's a picture of the machine: -> -> http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/motorola.jpg I have some more information on this computer: Manufactured 1981. Main board 6800 based, has 6821, 6840, 6850. I know what these IC's are. I built my first computer, a SWTPc M6800 in 1976, and still have it d8^) Thanks, Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 26 07:55:30 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on this Motorola computer? Some more details. In-Reply-To: <001401bfdf43$37a004e0$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> References: <000901bfdf31$397f5160$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000626075530.14872f80@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Bill, I looked at your description and the picture but I've never seen or heard of a Motorola computer like that. That's surprises me since I collect 6800 docs and I have a number of old Motorola computer books. They talk about the Motorloa Exor-ciser and EXOR-set systems and the developement systems but there's no mention of anything like the system that you have. I wonder if it might be some kind of prototype or maybe a rebadged unit? Joe At 03:50 AM 6/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >-> Any information, general to specific, on the Motorola model >-> M68SetDS351 all-in-one, dual 5.25 floppy drive, computer >-> will be greatly appreciated. >-> >-> Yes, this is the one on eBay. I'm trying to decide if it is >-> worth the shipping cost. >-> >-> Here's a picture of the machine: >-> >-> http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/motorola.jpg > > >I have some more information on this computer: > >Manufactured 1981. Main board 6800 based, has 6821, 6840, 6850. > >I know what these IC's are. I built my first computer, a SWTPc M6800 >in 1976, and still have it d8^) > > >Thanks, > >Bill Dawson >whdawson@mlynk.com > ? > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 26 07:33:51 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator Message-ID: <000626083351.26200a58@trailing-edge.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock >... >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. John Wilson asked: >With what driver? Pre-V5.5 versions of RT-11 come with the "DP:" driver, but this doesn't do RM03's, just RP02's and RP03's. It wouldn't suprise me if it got confused when you hooked a RM03 (real or emulated) to a system and tried to access it with the "DP:" driver, but that's "operator error". There are several DECUS-distributed RM03 device drivers for RT-11, and there were also a couple of commercial ones sold by third parties in the 1980's. The most likely DECUS driver is library entry 11-517, "System Device Handler For RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06 and RT-11 V4". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 07:45:09 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE85@TEGNTSERVER> > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:16:00PM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: [..snip..] > >And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can > >say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer > >field, > > Sure is. This isn't the right way to evoke feelings of nostalgia in > customers though! ROFL! -dq From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Jun 26 13:31:23 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <200006260340.e5Q3eet19879@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: Hello Paul On 25-Jun-00, you wrote: > >> >> She is one of many talents that took electronics and >> rather than make Rover howl, did achieve serious music. >> >> >> Allison >> >> > > You are absolutely correct on that one, Allison. I read an interview > with Bob Moog where he was discussing the early days of synths. > After "S-OB" was released and just exploded, everybody and their > brother had to have a Moog. Problem was, most of what was > produced on them was total crap, probably sounding like what I > would do if I couldn't sequence the hell out of something. (Ever hear > George Harrison's "Electronic Music"? 'Nuff said.......)(And yes, I > know that wasn't George. It was really just the synth salesman > noodling and demoing the machine, and George released it under > his name. If you have an original copy, you can see the other guy's > name before George made the record company print over his name > on the jacket......) > > Bob's comment was that it became very apparent that what made > "S-OB" the huge hit that it was wasn't his synth, it was Wendy.... > > It's even more amazing to listen to that album now and think about > the technology that didn't exist back then for sequencing and > midi...what she did manually was astounding. She and Larry Fast > have always been heroes of mine. > > > > > Paul Braun WD9GCO > Cygnus Productions > nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened to 'crap' . . . . There is a lot of good synth music out there if you look for it, and don't try to compare it to symphonic scores. Morton Subotnick and Tomita were the early leaders, among others. Quite a few of them were on the Nonesuch record label. Back in my vinyl accumulation days, I amasssed quite a selection. My interests there stem from over 40 years' association with Laurens Hammond's invention back in the 30's. which by definition is the one of the earliest known 'synthesizers' with a very user-friendly interface. Too bad they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. One last note: Wendy used 'Walter' to enter a men's world in music back then. Women still don't enjoy parity with men in the music industry, unless they are a country singer. > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand --- Vintage Hammond collector! ghldbrd@ccp.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 26 08:24:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Is it still possible to get Switched on Bach on CD? > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger Yes with added cuts as a boxed set. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 26 08:30:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened > to 'crap' . . . . I don't know, that human pumped synth was pretty neat. ;) > There is a lot of good synth music out there if you look for it, and don't > try to compare it to symphonic scores. Morton Subotnick and Tomita were the > early leaders, among others. Quite a few of them were on the Nonesuch You named a few of mine plus vinyl from the early computer music conferences. > they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. Havent banged on one of those in years, nothing like Taccota&fuege/Dminor to a rock beat on a full bore C3... gave the prof gray hair. Allison From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Jun 26 08:32:56 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <019a01bfdf73$512c3cf0$a652e780@L166> >My interests there stem from over 40 years' association with Laurens >Hammond's invention back in the 30's. which by definition is the one of the >earliest known 'synthesizers' with a very user-friendly interface. Too bad >they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. Let me know if you need any parts or manuals on these. I used to service them and when I sold the business about 20 years ago, I kept the manuals and the parts I carried in my vehicle. I know I still have things like vibrato scanner washers and mercotac's, etc. Dan From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 26 09:18:26 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801bfdf79$65c85d50$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Sellam said: > I found the soundtrack to Tron ... Did I score? Here's a nice lightweight answer. Yes, you did. I can provide you with a CD copy of this to listen to in exchange for the pleasure of getting a listen in myself. John A. From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 26 09:30:51 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened > to 'crap' . . . . Now that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black! From what I recall, the music on the Lawrence Welk show was quite similar what one heard the organ salespeople playing, in shopping-mall music stores, on those horrible types of home organs with all of the built in horrid noises like cha-cha and polka rythms, etc. Did any home organs have computers with floppies, etc. inside them? > One last note: Wendy used 'Walter' to enter a men's world in music back > then. Women still don't enjoy parity with men in the music industry, unless > they are a country singer. Ermm, wasn't she actually a he, who wanted to be a she, before an operation? That's what I heard, anyway. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 11:10:15 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE78@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > It's not enough to just will your collection or some > part of it to the Computer Museum History Center... > unless you also provide for the shipping/transport > of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet > Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so > themselves. The best option for the museum folks is to will them "right of first refusal", giving them the option to take what they want. Most museums are cramped for space (like RCS/RI, for example), and giving them an entire collection often turns into a big headache, if only a small amount of it is to be kept. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From transit at lerctr.org Mon Jun 26 11:12:22 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened > > to 'crap' . . . . > > Now that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black! From what I > recall, the music on the Lawrence Welk show was quite similar what one > heard the organ salespeople playing, in shopping-mall music stores, on > those horrible types of home organs with all of the built in horrid > noises like cha-cha and polka rythms, etc. I always wanted one of those, but they were too expensive ($1000 and up). By the time I could afford one, they were pretty much disappeared, replaced by cheap keyboards with built in horrid rhythms... > > Did any home organs have computers with floppies, etc. inside them? > Not until the mid-90's. On the other hand, there was a "Marantz Reproducing Piano" that was like a player piano, but used digital signals on a casette tape rather than the punched paper rolls. http://www.mninter.net/~mfontana/pc2mid/desc.html Some of the Allen Organs had a digital system where the tone quality was determined by an 80-column punched computer card, but these were high-end instruments, not really home organs. (Someone over on the Electronic Organ List hacked this system, and determined just how the cards were supposed to be punched in order to produce a certain sound) > > One last note: Wendy used 'Walter' to enter a men's world in music back > > then. Women still don't enjoy parity with men in the music industry, unless > > they are a country singer. > > Ermm, wasn't she actually a he, who wanted to be a she, before an > operation? That's what I heard, anyway. > Did (s)he get the operation before or after getting into the music business? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 26 11:26:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Whatever happened to CHAC? Message-ID: <000626122626.26200a7e@trailing-edge.com> Whatever happened to CHAC (The Computer History Association of California)? I haven't heard anything from them, nor seen new issues of their journal, in several years now. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jun 26 11:30:55 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 24, 2000 11:04:17 pm" Message-ID: <200006261630.JAA25675@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > DD drives or that DD disks can be used in HD drives _as HD disks_ (most > > HD drives can also handle DD disks, but only to store the amount of data > > that you'd get from a DD drive anyway). > > One word of caution regarding the use of DD disks in HD drives: it's > been my experience that which this may appear to work, problems > sometimes arise when one attempts to read the data written in a DD disk > by an HD drive. If IBM had only chosen to use a real double density format. (Note that your DS/DD disks say 96 tpi on them.) Most serious buisness CP/M systems of the era had an 80 track double density format, not this 40 track IBM cr*p. What really annoys me is that IBM and MS never rectified the problem, and even after we all had 96 tpi drives, we still couldn't put 720k on a DS/DD disk without special software. (Unless we happened to have one of the few MS-DOS machines that supported the format like Tandy, Victor, and Epson if you wanted to pay the exhorbitant price they charged for a compatible 96 tpi drive.) Having a 5.25 double density format that held nearly the same as a 3.5 double density drive would have greatly sped the acceptance of 3.5 inch drives on IBM compatble machines. Eric From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 11:48:37 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8C@TEGNTSERVER> I guess that's probably an unfair remark, but someone who lurked on that auction until I went to sleep last night beat me by a dollar. I knew that could happen but I was hoping it wouldn't. Thus go the perils of bidding at auctions. So, I want to thank everyone for the very useful suggestions on transporting the unit. It would eventually have been fun to play with, even though my interest in DEC is pretty much limited to the DEC-10, and since DEC had enough trouble keeping them running, no way I'd try if I could even find one. Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone know if that ever came about? -dq From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 26 13:49:23 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator References: <000626083351.26200a58@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3957A5B3.390D@bos.nl> I did indeed use the DP: driver, so that explains why it didn't work. I'll check on the decus CDROM then for the entry. Thanks, Ed CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: > >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock > >... > >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. > > John Wilson asked: > >With what driver? > > Pre-V5.5 versions of RT-11 come with the "DP:" driver, but this > doesn't do RM03's, just RP02's and RP03's. It wouldn't suprise > me if it got confused when you hooked a RM03 (real or emulated) > to a system and tried to access it with the "DP:" driver, but > that's "operator error". > > There are several DECUS-distributed RM03 device drivers for RT-11, > and there were also a couple of commercial ones sold by third parties > in the 1980's. The most likely DECUS driver is library entry 11-517, > "System Device Handler For RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06 and RT-11 V4". > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 26 12:02:53 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfdf90$5ec97950$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > The best option ... is to will them > "right of first refusal" Funny, to me this sounds like a synonym for 'Womens rights'. John A. From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 26 12:05:08 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Paul Allen's TOAD (was: Re: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8C@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to > put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone > know if that ever came about? Yes; the machine is on-line at xkleten.paulallen.com. It runs TOPS-20 (according to the data I have, TOPS-10 runs on the TOAD, but only on the console - no network logins, and the TOAD doesn't support any serial mux's...). Supposedly, accounts on that machine are/were available for folks interested in PDP-10 stuff, but the e-mail address that was given for requests (xkladmin@xkleten.paulallen.com) seems to lead to /dev/null these days; I've been trying for over a year to get someone to answer my e-mail, without success. I even went so far as to call his PR firm (the only e-mailable contact I could find on his web site); they had no knowledge of the machine, or of the offer to give people accounts, and could only tell me that "if no one is answering your e-mail, then it most likely means that this service is no longer being offered". I know that some folks have accounts and use the machine - I should have sent my request in when the offer was originally posted.... :-( --Pat. From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 26 14:06:27 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator References: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl> <20000625231924.B16395@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3957A9B3.57A@bos.nl> Mounting under RSX did work perfectly, BAD and INI did do what they have to do :=) Thanks, Ed John Wilson wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: > >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock > >option and then mount it under RSX, it complains, telling me that > >it is an alignment pack! Is there a way to get around this problem? > >Using FMT does not help either, a similar message is returned. > > I just put a compressed blank RM03 at: > > ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.zip > and: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.dsk.gz > > The file is about 64 KB either way, and yields the same empty RM03.DSK > image file, which has a correct null bad sector list, and serial # = 12345. > It works fine with RSTS DSKINT under Bob's emulator, I assume it will make > RSX happy too. > > >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. > > With what driver? > > John Wilson > D Bit -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 12:26:48 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Paul Allen's TOAD (was: Re: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurke r) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8D@TEGNTSERVER> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to > > put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone > > know if that ever came about? > > I know that some folks have accounts and use the machine - > I should have sent my request in when > the offer was originally posted.... :-( Well, it sounds like somebody is keeping the electricity turned on... Gee, I was going to offer Paul my copy of the DEC-10 Commands Manual (this is the heavier paper version, not the "phone book" styled pub) for perpetual access. Now I guess it's E-bay destined... -dq From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Jun 26 12:35:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8C@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000626102336.00bd8d50@208.226.86.10> At 12:48 PM 6/26/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >I guess that's probably an unfair remark, but someone >who lurked on that auction until I went to sleep last >night beat me by a dollar. I knew that could happen >but I was hoping it wouldn't. Thus go the perils of >bidding at auctions. Actually, I think that hivoltagenut (Chuck Hoaglin) is a DEC reseller and I suspect he bid a lot more than $27. As several of us mentioned the value the 11/73 CPU card alone was worth $25. So your typical dealer type will add up the value of the cards mentioned, bid on it and if they win have the seller strip the cards out into antistatic bags and ship them leaving the rack to be disposed of at its point of origin. The reason it _seems_ like he outbid you by a dollar was that Ebay proxy bidding only made him pay enough to go "one bid increment" past your highest bid. >Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to >put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone >know if that ever came about? Yes it did. there used to be information on tourist accounts at xkl.com IIRC but I just checked and the web server does not respond anymore. --Chuck From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Jun 26 12:57:47 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker Message-ID: <20000626.130415.-365663.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:48:37 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman writes: > I guess that's probably an unfair remark, but someone > who lurked on that auction until I went to sleep last > night beat me by a dollar. I knew that could happen > but I was hoping it wouldn't. Thus go the perils of > bidding at auctions. I always bid using a high-powered rifle w/telescopic sight. ;^) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 26 13:32:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > >> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: >> > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been >>likened >> > to 'crap' . . . . >> >> Now that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black! From what I >> recall, the music on the Lawrence Welk show was quite similar what one >> heard the organ salespeople playing, in shopping-mall music stores, on >> those horrible types of home organs with all of the built in horrid >> noises like cha-cha and polka rythms, etc. > >I always wanted one of those, but they were too expensive ($1000 and up). >By the time I could afford one, they were pretty much disappeared, >replaced by cheap keyboards with built in horrid rhythms... GSA outlet in Fullerton has one for I "think" $50. California State Agency for Surplus Property 701 Burning Tree Road Fullerton, CA 92633 714-449-5900 Fax: 714-449-5917 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 12:53:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006260350.UAA63786@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 25, 0 08:50:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/644b5d08/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 12:58:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 25, 0 09:18:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/6a917397/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 13:05:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 26, 0 12:10:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/0c48a03b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 13:09:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: <200006261630.JAA25675@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Jun 26, 0 09:30:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/d5639bb4/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Jun 26 14:23:38 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000626152338.A18042@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: >Some of the Allen Organs had a digital system where the tone quality was >determined by an 80-column punched computer card, but these were high-end >instruments, not really home organs. (Someone over on the Electronic >Organ List hacked this system, and determined just how the cards were >supposed to be punched in order to produce a certain sound) Neat! I remember a snazzy tuner that was around in the 80s which used a punch card, that's cool that they were used to encode tone quality too. The tuner had a little circle of LEDs which would appear to "roll" in one direction or the other, depending on which way you needed to go. And the punch card allowed non-equal temperaments, great for harpsichordists who don't feel like doing mean tone the equal-beating way. I wish I remembered what these things were called so I could look for one... What would be *really* neat would be an automatic harpsichord tuner, with some kind of slow high-torque motor to turn the tuning pins. But I'll bet the debugging process would involve breaking a whole lot of strings! John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 26 14:34:37 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: 40 cylinder 3.5" drive (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, looking through old catalogues, I found a reference to a 40 > cylinder 3.5" drive. Has anyone ever seen one of those? Looks like a > chance for the same sort of incompatabilities with the normal 80 cylinder > 3.5" drives as the 5.25" people experience! Epson Geneva PX-8 ~67.5 tpi can be read by double-stepping regular "720K" drive. It probably has the same track width problems, but I've never had a chance to try. also some models of the Tandy drive for the model 100 (I don't know off-hand WHICH models) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 15:07:08 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:03 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE97@TEGNTSERVER> Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers of Meyers Computer Services (Jersey Shore, PA)? Here's why I ask... After the many invectives launched here towards E-bay (but prior to my post defending them), I decided to check out haggle.com. Almost right off the bat, I found something I wanted for a great price- a Seagate 11200ND diff SCSI drive. I won the item, and received it on Wednesday. It was Friday before I got around to trying it- and it's DOA. Won't spin up; I can hear what might be the heads trying to unpark, or maybe it's the drive motor trying to start. But negatory. Additionally, three SMD devices appear to have been removed from the drive's interface PCB. Very strange. I sent him e-mail on Friday w/r/t its status as DOA; the description for the item gave it a 2-day DOA warranty. He appears to be very busy; I spoke to a subordinate, who took my info and said he'd contact mr. meyers about it, and I'd be contacted back. All the feedback on haggle for him is glowing; I'm willing to believe he really is a busy guy and that he (or a subordinate) just grabbed a drive off the wrong pile and shipped it to me. An honest mistake. Should I be apprehensive about this? Hey, I'd only be out $15 if I get no resolution, so it's not going to be the end of the world. Just thought I'd ask before I cop an attitude... tia, -doug q From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 26 15:02:19 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU References: Message-ID: <3957B6CB.921A85FD@cornell.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > Bob: As you have one of these supplies in front of you, what is it? I > there a big iron-cored transformer? Is there a medium-sized ferrite-cored > transformer? What about capacitors of a few hundred uF with working > voltages around 200V? > > -tony OK, I'll bite, as I have one of these; I am in a bit of a hurry right now so I won't disassemble the thing entirely -- it has way too many screws and plates. The supply is rated 8A max, 110V, 47.5-66Hz in the rear plate. No large transformers. There is a large EMI filter right at the mains, then the input circuitry features a large coil, two 1150 uF @ 200V caps, one small transformer which I think supplies what seems to be a small control board nearby, then another board with five IOR 4-772 TO-3 transistors; several diodes and something that looks like a bridge (sorry; can't get a good look without disassembling) there is another transistor nearby in the main board, a 2S02429; all of these components seem to be part of the main switcher; later on there are more caps, transistors, SCR's and a multiple-tap xformer (laminated core!). It looks like a two-stage switcher to me. carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 15:10:21 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Museum policies (was: Yo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Certainly in the UK (and I guess this applies worldwide), some museums > have policies which make it difficult for them to sell or give away > potential exhibits. So even though they've already got 10 Commodore 64s, > and even though they know of a collector who wants one, they still can't > give him the one that's just been given to them. Something seems seriously wrong here. If a museum ever gets into a situation like this, they have made a serious error. When an artifact (or anything else, for that matter) is to be donated to a museum, a contract is drawn up and signed by both parties. The museums use a very standardized contract to protect themselves, as many people use museums for personal gain. Like any contract, both parties must agree or nothing happens. Museums will _almost_always_ insist on a contract that lets them do whatever they want with the all or part of the new material - including storage, display, preservation and restoration, trade, sale, and destruction. If they can not get this right, nearly all will simply not accept the donation. This also applies to things willed to them - they need not take them if backed into a corner. I think you may be confusing the issue of selling and trading items that are not part of the museum trust - basically items on temporary or indefinite loan (there really is no "permanent loan"). For example, when the ship restoration people go into the reserve fleet to pull off fittings and equipment for museum ships going thru restoration, the items _can_not_ be sold or destroyed. This is because the items are still government property, even though the Navy doesn't want the stuff! The stuff can be traded, but only for items in the same category from other museums. I can not think of any situation where computer equipment would fall into this category, unless the equipment is crypto related. Also, keep in mind the point of accepting willed donations. Think of the tripping points a museum would have with these transactions. Museums generally do not have the resources to change the terms of wills, so if lots come along, generally they must take all or nothing (unless the term does give the right of first refusal). They _must_ have the right to refuse donations. If this was not the case, museums would be helpless and the power would be abused by anyone trying to get the junk out of an estate. They would have to take stuff that wasn't even worth taking to a flea market or the Goodwill store. Additionally, they would be forced to take things in huge quantities that would quickly swamp their systems. For example, I have in my shop a number of radio boxes for Martin B-10/B-12 bombers - great museum pieces, but does any museum need twenty of the darn things (I certainly don't - anyone want to buy one or more from me)? Of course not, and if I died tomorrow the recipient museum might only take one or two to satisfy their needs. If the museum was forced to take all and keep them - well, hell, I could "donate" all of my scrap metal and half parted and stripped sets, too. > While such policies are obviously necessary, I am also quite sure that > most classic computer collectors would rather their machines went to > people who wanted them (wether museums or private collectors), and were > not simply given to a museum to be stuck in storage. Just keep in mind that in museums, the artifacts are far safer than in private hands. Some museums have poor storage facilities (RCS/RI needs an upgrade - anyone want to donate money or shelving units?), but even the worst that a museum has to offer is far better than what many private collectors do (is that a can of Coke on your PDP-11? Shame if it spilled inside...). Don't damn the museums. Most have to store many items simply because of a lack of manpower and money to preserve and restore them. The simple solution is to ask the museums if _you_ can donate time and resources. Yes, this is a somewhat open invitation - RCS/RI has about 100 waiting projects for every one being worked on, and the ratio is growing. For those located near Providence, RI, come to an open house (3rd Saturday of every month) and see what there is to do. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 26 15:19:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006262019.NAA20060@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > While such policies are obviously necessary, I am also quite sure that > most classic computer collectors would rather their machines went to > people who wanted them (wether museums or private collectors), and were > not simply given to a museum to be stuck in storage. Hi They could always set up a loan program or a lease like program. The idea would be that a private individual could hold an item for an indefinite time. The person would be required to bring the machine back, should the museum need it. Maybe, the person would need to bring the unit back once a year to show that it was still in existence. The museum would get free storage and people would get to explore how these old machines worked. It wouldn't be much for the trophy hunters but for us hackers it would be great. Initially, there would be a lot of these on loan. Over a period of time, theft, fire and general loss, would whittle the number down to a more manageable size. This way, the museum could also maintain a working unit for display and demonstration purposes. There is something to be said for having a pile of C64's. Dwight From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 26 15:53:16 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE97@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000001bfdfb0$8dc77340$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> ...Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers No. ...it's DOA. Won't spin up; ...description for the item gave it a 2-day DOA Sounds clear to me. Insist on some kind of replacement or money-back. The one time I recieved bad HW in an auction I pressed for some sort of ?retribution, the seller offered replacement and gave it, without asking for bad part in return. ...three SMD devices appear to have been removed Sure they're not just board options that weren't placed? DOA even with perfect a looking thing would be still be DOA AFAIK. John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 26 15:58:30 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > [ 5.25" 80 cylinder 96 tpi drives on IBM PCs] > > without special software. (Unless we happened to have one of the few MS-DOS > > machines that supported the format like Tandy, Victor, and Epson if you wanted > > to pay the exhorbitant price they charged for a compatible 96 tpi drive.) > Why couldn't you simply set it up as a 720K (3.5") drive on _any_ PC? PC-DOS and MS-DOS from version 3.20 on fully support 720K; It doesn't matter whether it is 5.25 or 3.5; the computer can't tell them apart. If you are putting the 5.25" 720K drive in an AT, set the CMOS for 3.5" 720K. On many/most you will need to add a line to CONFIG.SYS of either DRIVER.SYS (which creates an additional drive letter), or DRIVPARM (which changes parameters for existing drive). ("/D:1 /F:2" to use drive B: as 720K) DRIVPARM is documented in MS-DOS. It is present, but not documented in PC-DOS (3.20 and above). Here's a puzzle for you: DRIVPARM in either PC-DOS or MS-DOS 3.20 will work on most compatibles. But on real IBM machines, DRIVPARM fails and gives an 'unrecognized..." in the processing of CONFIG.SYS. The problem with using DRIVPARM appears to be an incompatibility with the IBM BIOS, NOT an issue of which version of the OS! To format a diskette, use options: /T:80 /N:9 Note that those are used by FORMAT merely to select from its existing choices, those do NOT actually set the values of the variables (/T:70 will NOT make a 70 track format, etc.) > Considering the 96tpi DD 5.25" disk and the 3.5" DD disk, they have the > same number of cylinders (80), the same number of heads (2), the same > number of sectors/track (9), the same rotational speed (300 rpm) ,etc. So > why isn't the capacity _exactly_ the same? It is. The computer can't tell them apart. Prior to DOS 3.20 (particularly in 2.11), many OEMs started using 5.25" 720K drives and 3.5" 720K drives. But because it was not sanctioned by IBM, there was no standardization, and there were many mutually incompatible formats. Starting with 3.20, the format is standardized. Support for 1.4M started with version 3.30. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 16:20:51 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE98@TEGNTSERVER> > ...three SMD devices appear to have been removed > > Sure they're not just board options that > weren't placed? Pads for unplaced devices have a decidedly different appearance (in my experience) than what I see here. Usually, the pads are shiny with solder, a remnant I assume of wave soldering or some other similar manufacturing technology. For a given device, a few lead pads will be shiny, some *black*, and some kinda look lke they've been pulled up off the board. Sombody had a steady hand, I'll say that for sure. Either that, or these chips blew themselves off the board. I wish I had a photomicroscope so I could take a picture- you'd see what I mean. As I said in my post, I'm assuming he gets lots of these, and he just grabbed this one off the wrong pile. -dq From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 26 16:54:04 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <009801bfdfb9$0c5e1760$c8721fd1@default> Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me know. John Keys From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 26 17:08:28 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <026801bfdfbb$0ef3cb80$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 26, 2000 4:01 PM Subject: Do I look Rich ? >Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) >but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens >when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me >know. >John Keys > Did you tell him that computers are an investment that don't normally appreciate from their original purchase price (with the possible exception of Apple Is and Altairs)? Tell him I'll sell him an equally collectible Amiga 1000 for a very reasonable $2500. Seriously though, if anyone on-list want an original A1000 in its original box, with original keyboard but a replacement mouse (copies of Kickstart and WB 1.2 included, no manuals) I have one available. I'll take Amiga or Atari ST software (or most anything else Amiga-related) in trade. Cheers, Mark. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 17:32:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE99@TEGNTSERVER> > Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) > but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens > when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me > know. John- You just need to polish up your social engineering skills. ;-) I got a Prime 2455 for shipping costs only; the owner wanted... ...drum roll, please... ten thousand american dollars for this wonderful little machine. The process did entail one $25 phone call to Arizona, and a few shorter/cheaper ones, listening to his anxiety over marrying off the first of his daughters (late, at age 29), and such. But it paid off. -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 17:37:32 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9A@TEGNTSERVER> > Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers > of Meyers Computer Services (Jersey Shore, PA)? Ok, I called him, he called me back, VERY busy guy, good intentions, is sending me another unit. He tested this one to make sure it at least spins up (it was strange that while the auction ad made no mention of whether the drive had or had not been tested, that they still offered a 2-day DOA warranty). For my part, I'd decided that if a second unit is bad, hey, it was only $15.00, so no real harm done. But getting a working one means a lot, so I'm hoping this one will be good. At any rate, I feel safe saying that this guy runs a good business, and I'll probably buy from him again, should the opportunity arise, whether the second unit works or not. -doug q From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Jun 26 17:49:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: ; from Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000626154906.C26186@electron.quantum.int> On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Did any home organs have computers with floppies, etc. inside them? > > > Not until the mid-90's. On the other hand, there was a "Marantz > Reproducing Piano" that was like a player piano, but used digital signals > on a casette tape rather than the punched paper rolls. > http://www.mninter.net/~mfontana/pc2mid/desc.html I saw another organ like that once, Gulbransen maybe. > > Some of the Allen Organs had a digital system where the tone quality was > determined by an 80-column punched computer card, but these were high-end > instruments, not really home organs. (Someone over on the Electronic > Organ List hacked this system, and determined just how the cards were > supposed to be punched in order to produce a certain sound) Yep, a church I used to go to had one of those. It was quite a nice- sounding organ; big too, with two large manuals and 3 octaves or so of pedals. The cards were just for new add-on sounds (and I'm sure they made plenty of extra money from them); it had a large complement of built-in sounds selected by the typical flip-switches. The cards were made of plastic for durability. I think they must've used an optical matrix to read the entire card at once, because you didn't have to feed it in at any particular speed; just stick it in a slot and take it back out again. I suspect it must've used an advanced form of FM synthesis; the amount of data to define a sound that way would be about right for a punch card. But it sounded way better than say a Yamaha DX7. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 26 18:05:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE97@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers >price- a Seagate 11200ND diff SCSI drive. I won >the item, and received it on Wednesday. > >It was Friday before I got around to trying it- >and it's DOA. Won't spin up; I can hear what might >be the heads trying to unpark, or maybe it's the >drive motor trying to start. But negatory. >Should I be apprehensive about this? Hey, I'd >only be out $15 if I get no resolution, so it's >not going to be the end of the world. > >Just thought I'd ask before I cop an attitude... A few thoughts on this; 1) Don't make public posts questioning a vendors integrity prior to making a good effort to settle the issue privately. This will include waiting more than two business days for a reply. 2) DOA happens on old drives, so do a dozen other end user mess ups that keep them from spinning up or working. The drive could be fine, and you just have a wimpy power supply or a jumper set wrong. 3) Look at the ad terms carefully, not wishfully. Does it say 100% tested, or just no DOA? If the latter it may be he has a stack of "mostly" good drives and no desire to test them before shipping at $15 each. From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 26 18:12:28 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: 40 cylinder 3.5" drive (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidentally, looking through old catalogues, I found a reference to a 40 > > cylinder 3.5" drive. Has anyone ever seen one of those? Looks like a > > chance for the same sort of incompatabilities with the normal 80 cylinder > > 3.5" drives as the 5.25" people experience! > > Epson Geneva PX-8 > ~67.5 tpi > can be read by double-stepping regular "720K" drive. It probably has the > same track width problems, but I've never had a chance to try. MicroSolutions apparently neglected to read the spec, as UniForm gags at reading a disk from a PF-10 drive. Interestingly, while the spec in the manual spells out 16 - 256 byte sectors per track, Sydex' 22Disk formats to 9 - 512 byte sectors per track. The Geneva accepts it alright. I lack a format program for the Geneva, so I am unable to compare whether they changed spec or what. - don > also some models of the Tandy drive for the model 100 (I don't know > off-hand WHICH models) > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 26 18:18:42 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9A@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers > > of Meyers Computer Services (Jersey Shore, PA)? > > Ok, I called him, he called me back, VERY busy > guy, good intentions, is sending me another unit. > > He tested this one to make sure it at least spins > up (it was strange that while the auction ad made > no mention of whether the drive had or had not been > tested, that they still offered a 2-day DOA warranty). I think that on low priced items that some/many(?) vendors do a rather cursory test and assume that the law of averages is on their side for the rest of the functions. In the long run, it probably pays off for them. I know some swapmeet vendors here who guarantee parts in just that way. Some may not even test drives that far. But they will stand behind the DOA thing. - don > For my part, I'd decided that if a second unit is > bad, hey, it was only $15.00, so no real harm done. > > But getting a working one means a lot, so I'm > hoping this one will be good. > > At any rate, I feel safe saying that this guy > runs a good business, and I'll probably buy > from him again, should the opportunity arise, > whether the second unit works or not. > > -doug q > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 00:34:57 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? In-Reply-To: <026801bfdfbb$0ef3cb80$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Hello Mark On 26-Jun-00, you wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: John R. Keys Jr. > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, June 26, 2000 4:01 PM > Subject: Do I look Rich ? > > >> Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) >> but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens >> when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me >> know. >> John Keys >> > > > Did you tell him that computers are an investment that don't normally > appreciate from their original purchase price (with the possible exception > of Apple Is and Altairs)? Tell him I'll sell him an equally collectible > Amiga 1000 for a very reasonable $2500. > > Seriously though, if anyone on-list want an original A1000 in its original > box, with original keyboard but a replacement mouse (copies of Kickstart > and WB 1.2 included, no manuals) I have one available. I'll take Amiga or > Atari ST software (or most anything else Amiga-related) in trade. > > Cheers, > Mark. Sorry, Mark, I already have one, to which I just added a Sidecar. I think I have now enough stuff to make a full-blown Amiga 1000 system with period components. Give me his email addy and I'll ask $15,000 and see what he thinks!!!! I'll need to get some pics taken when I dig it out of the closet. What ever happened to caveat emptor? Is it now caveat vendum? > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 19:58:14 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfdfd2$c6173880$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > It's not enough to just will your collection or some -> > part of it to the Computer Museum History Center... -> > unless you also provide for the shipping/transport -> > of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet -> > Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so -> > themselves. -> -> The best option for the museum folks is to will them "right of first -> refusal", giving them the option to take what they want. -> Most museums are cramped for space (like RCS/RI, for example), and giving -> them an entire collection often turns into a big headache, if only a small -> amount of it is to be kept. Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would being passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education programs, etc. I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians) /preservationists) accordingly. Bill whdwson@mlynk.com From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Jun 26 21:03:24 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200006270202.e5R22Pq01395@grover.winsite.com> Allison typed forth and the following was the result: > > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been > > likened to 'crap' . . . . > > I don't know, that human pumped synth was pretty neat. ;) > > > There is a lot of good synth music out there if you look for it, and > > don't try to compare it to symphonic scores. Morton Subotnick and > > Tomita were the early leaders, among others. Quite a few of them were > > on the Nonesuch > > You named a few of mine plus vinyl from the early computer music > conferences. > > > they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. > > Havent banged on one of those in years, nothing like Taccota&fuege/Dminor > to a rock beat on a full bore C3... gave the prof gray hair. > > Allison > And to my ears, there's nothing like a full-bore Hammond being driven by Jon Lord from Deep Purple. Nobody, but nobody gets that angry, hulking, growling sound from an organ like Lord. Speaking of Tomita....on his "Bermuda Triangle" album (mine is on blue vinyl......) he included an encoded message that required someone with a Tarbell cassette interface to read. I never had the necessary equipment, and it's always bugged me as to what the message was. Has anyone here ever decoded it? I'm not familiar with Subotnick. What is his style? Is it more like Carlos, Tomita, or Fast? Or, something completely different? Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 26 20:34:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> >And to my ears, there's nothing like a full-bore Hammond being driven by Jon Lord from Deep Purple. Nobody, but nobody gets that angry, hulking, growling sound from an organ like Lord. Before I quit I tried to get that sound... no idea how he did that. Speaking of Tomita....on his "Bermuda Triangle" album (mine is on blue vinyl......) he included an encoded message that required Majorly cool color. someone with a Tarbell cassette interface to read. I never had the necessary equipment, and it's always bugged me as to what the message was. Has anyone here ever decoded it? I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. I'm not familiar with Subotnick. What is his style? Is it more like Carlos, Tomita, or Fast? Or, something completely different? Little of all, different than all. We should talk in terms of how old computers were used for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We always seem to have one and often they are as interesting as any even if they are OT. Allison Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 21:43:43 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: > I'm not familiar with Subotnick. What is his style? Is it more like > Carlos, Tomita, or Fast? Or, something completely different? > > > Little of all, different than all. He fooled around with early FM boxes. He also (on a few albums, anyway) mixed in real instrumentation. > We should talk in terms of how old computers were used > for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We > always seem to have one and often they are as interesting > as any even if they are OT. Well, the problem seems to be that all* of the old analog synth guys had no clue when it came to digital electronics and computers. Mr. Moog once said something like "if you threw five pounds of shit in a box and it made a sound, it sold". If you looks at how MIDI is done, or the circuits in some of the old samplers and drum machines, you will see what I mean! Makes you want to knaw your thumbs off. *Roger Powell of Utopia/Todd Rundgren fame seems to have a clue, as he stopped making music to work for SGI. I think he used to write for Byte every so often. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 21:51:52 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <000001bfdfd2$c6173880$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would being > passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they > didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the > highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum > support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education programs, etc. RCS/RI does this alreay (and also because we are moving away from the micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers turned out to be a big jerk... On the flip side, we at RCS/RI can not devote tons of time to selling stuff at auction, so lots of what we get does end up not being sold, but given away and so forth. > I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same > direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at > this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are > aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made > there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians) > /preservationists) accordingly. It is actually happening without the need to "structure ourselves". It happens with all new fields of collectables. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jlewczyk at his.com Mon Jun 26 22:13:40 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Apple Profile Hard Drive info wanted In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002301bfdfe5$b1575a20$013da8c0@Corellian> I'm restoring a Lisa 2 and just got a Profile drive. Does anyone have the schematics for the drive? Its got a DB-25 female connector on the back to hook up to the Lisa's "parallel" DB-25 on the back. I don't have the original cable and I'm thinking of trying an old 6 foot PC cable (all 25 signals in it) Male-to-Male DB-25 to hook it up. Any reasons why this won't work? John jlewczyk@his.com From transit at lerctr.org Mon Jun 26 22:13:09 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: [...] Hammond Organs, Subotnick, etc. > > We should talk in terms of how old computers were used > for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We > always seem to have one and often they are as interesting > as any even if they are OT. There is an electronic organ mailing list, if anyone's interested, let me know....There are also some synth lists (including a build-your-own synth list) floating around out there. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 22:16:37 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > RCS/RI does this alreay (and also because we are moving away from the > micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers > turned out to be a big jerk... I should point out that the jerk was _not_ the guy that won the Lisa (a delivery attempt was scrubbed due to miscommunication). Sorry about any "confusion". Just don't want to step on the wrong toes. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 23:31:48 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bfdff0$9bd5fa20$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would be -> > passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they -> > didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the -> > highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum -> > support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education -> >programs, etc. -> -> RCS/RI does this already (and also because we are moving away from the -> micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers -> turned out to be a big jerk... Sorry to hear one of the first deals went bad. Or was that comment a dig at someone we know? How have the other auctions been doing? -> On the flip side, we at RCS/RI can not devote tons of time to selling -> stuff at auction, so lots of what we get does end up not being sold, but -> given away and so forth. Perhaps someone hired to perform this task would pay for their salary and more? Maybe someone hired on a commission basis? -> > I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same -> > direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at -> > this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are -> > aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made -> > there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians) -> > /preservationists) accordingly. -> It is actually happening without the need to "structure ourselves". It -> happens with all new fields of collectibles. Perhaps I should have used the word "pattern"? Yes, similar things occur with most collectibles and their followers. Clubs, newsletters, meets, conventions, suppliers, etc. I think though that as far as logistics go, we have much more in common with the antique radio collectors than with collectors of Beanie Babies. The point I am trying to make is that all we have to do is observe where the Antique Radio Collector field is today and how it got there. We are following the same path. We can take shortcuts and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is not a fad, vintage computers are not Star Wars figures. Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues, and non-profit status would be a great boost to this collecting field. We are already having the equivalent of the AWA regional meets with the VCF, there are contests, and there are some clubs. However, I'm not aware of any _major_ Vintage Computer Newsletters (virtual or otherwise), and I don't feel discussion groups are in the same category. By newsletter, I mean something with articles focused on specific hardware, software, restoration techniques help columns and wanted to buy/sell area. I know there are those that dread this hobby or whatever you want to call it heading in an organized direction, with the attendant increase of publicity and collectors. Why do I think this way? I see two types of vintage computer collectors, the true historical preservationists and the collectors. Collectors see organization and all that comes with it as a threat to their ability to find those rare pieces (find it first) and increased competition (pay as little as possible for it). Why else all the complaining about eBay and the prices? Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our computer technology for posterity. If an organized association greatly furthers this cause than I believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not limiting "we" to mean just those on this list, but also those on the many other vintage/classic hardware and software lists as well. This can only help but further our cause of historical preservation. Comments? Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 00:10:12 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <000501bfdff0$9bd5fa20$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > Sorry to hear one of the first deals went bad. Or was that comment a > dig at someone we know? How have the other auctions been doing? No one on this list, I think - I pointed the deal out because a -1 feedback is a black eye. Anyway, some email problems killed communications for a few days after the auction ended, so this jerk concluded that we killed the deal off and put up more fibre. Six days is a very short time to jump to a conclusion, but this guy did and gave us bad feedback. We are doing well with the auctions - mostly non-vintage stuff like ethernet things and fibre. We have a few cool things coming up soon, like a Apples III and IIGS (Woz edition), a Commodore PET of some sort, probably some old workstation stuff, maybe a few other bits a pieces. And fibre...lots of fibre. > Perhaps someone hired to perform this task would pay for their salary > and more? > Maybe someone hired on a commission basis? If we had five figures of things to move, that would be an idea, but for our volume it is not reasonable. > we have much more in common with the antique radio collectors than with > collectors of Beanie Babies. The point I am trying to make is that all > we have to do is observe where the Antique Radio Collector field is > today > and how it got there. We are following the same path. We can take > shortcuts > and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is not a fad, vintage > computers > are not Star Wars figures. Even Star Wars figure and Beanie Baby collecting has gone thru the same motions - it really is just a natural evolution. > However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues, and > non-profit > status would be a great boost to this collecting field. It is a great idea, but I think we do not have critical mass. We also don't have someone that is willing to be the editor of a newsletter. > However, I'm not aware of > any > _major_ Vintage Computer Newsletters (virtual or otherwise) CHAC had a good one, but it seems that organization is in a holding pattern. > goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our computer > technology > for posterity. If an organized association greatly furthers this cause > than I > believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not limiting > "we" to mean > just those on this list, but also those on the many other > vintage/classic hardware > and software lists as well. I am a proponent of the museum system (uhh...obviously, I guess), so I tend to preach in that direction: I think that the best way to grow the hobby into something serious is to form regional organizations. RCS/RI is one of them - we grew out of a few guys in Providence, RI, that were interested in older systems. We have grown a little in number, but we have collected a whole big bunch of machines, software, and documentation. Most of what we have was only saved because we were able to pull together as a group, sharing expenses to get or ship the equipment, and to pay for the rent for our space. The machines are basically community owned, so if a member leaves for any reason, the collection remains basically intact (there are a few machines in the collection that are privately owned). We have long term plans - things like newsletters, shows, a real exhibition hall, etc.. I think we will actually hit some our goals as well, as we do have a number of dedicated people. I would urge just about everyone on this list to look into joining or forming a group. The rewards are great. Rhode Island, that little state tucked away on the East, has two groups, RCS/RI and RICM. The West Coast has the Computer History Center (I bet they wouldn't mind a few volunteers). I am quite suprised that the DC area is lacking any group, as it seems to be a hotbed of vintage computing. The same strikes me about the Midwest (Chicago) as well. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 26 23:12:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > >And to my ears, there's nothing like a full-bore Hammond being > driven by Jon Lord from Deep Purple. Nobody, but nobody gets that > angry, hulking, growling sound from an organ like Lord. > > Before I quit I tried to get that sound... no idea how he did that. Maybe he ran it through a distortion pedal? (just a stupid thought :) > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Mon Jun 26 17:08:57 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <000001bfe033$1997b5b0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> But you also had quite a few freebies after the article. So I guess that it was mostly positive. And you probably had a good laugh when you read that guys e-mail. Let's do pizza or something Francois PS: Yeah you must be rich, You were in the paper:) >Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) >but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens >when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me >know. >John Keys > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 27 07:28:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. > The other two were KB (Kilobaud) and IA (interface age). Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 07:28:50 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Tarbell Casette Interface 4 Sale (Was: RE: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9C@TEGNTSERVER> > Speaking of Tomita....on his "Bermuda Triangle" album (mine is on > blue vinyl......) he included an encoded message that required > > Majorly cool color. > > someone with a Tarbell cassette interface to read. I never had the > necessary equipment, and it's always bugged me as to what the > message was. Has anyone here ever decoded it? I'm not sure who I'm replying to, as someone's quoting mechanism is working even worse than Outlook's.... But what a coincidence that I'm planning to put a Tarbell Casette Interface up on E-Bay today. My reserve price will be $100, and while it does not include documentation, and I have not tested it, I am including a 1983 Tarbell Electronics catalog (ok, big woo). I thought I'd post here in case someone didn't want to fight the traffic; plus it'd save me a few bucks for the posting. -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 07:43:47 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9D@TEGNTSERVER> > A few thoughts on this; > > 1) Don't make public posts questioning a vendors integrity prior to making > a good effort to settle the issue privately. This will include waiting more > than two business days for a reply. I went back and carefully read what I posted; a strict deconstruction of your phrase "questioning a vendor's integrity" does not seem to apply to what I said. I thought the tone of my post was respectful if somewhat apprehensive. I did not question his integrity; I merely related my experience and queried others as to theirs. And as to waiting two business days, let me say this. We all tend to expect instant results from anything involving a computer, forgetting that a human component is still in the loop that doesn't respond at the speed of light. However, I use delivery and read receipts on all my mail, and if I at least get a receipt back, then I know I'm most likely "in the queue". Failure to receive same leaves me wondering if my message was even received. Not all ISPs and mailers support receipts, I know; as to the ISP problem, scripts can provide the equivalent function. For mailers, all that's required is to switch to a different mailer. If anyone finds the receipts distasteful, they can decline to use them, but they risk what almost happened in this case. To summarize, had I gotten a receipt, I'd have waited as patiently as is possible for me, but I'd have waited. > 2) DOA happens on old drives, so do a dozen other end user mess ups that > keep them from spinning up or working. The drive could be fine, and you > just have a wimpy power supply or a jumper set wrong. Bzzt. Sorry, nope. The power supply is driving two diff SCSI drives that are full-height 5.25 inch units (HP 97548's, I believe). No way a wimpy 3.5 half-height drive is sucking more juice. > 3) Look at the ad terms carefully, not wishfully. Does it say 100% tested, > or just no DOA? If the latter it may be he has a stack of "mostly" good > drives and no desire to test them before shipping at $15 each. It said "just not DOA", and the drive was just plain DOA. regards, -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 07:45:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9E@TEGNTSERVER> > > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. Jim Warren's Interface Age magazine (successor to the journal of the Southern California Computer Society's SCCS Interface)...? -doug q From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 13:49:12 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Sidecar (was: Re: Do I look Rich ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: >> >> Sorry, Mark, I already have one, to which I just added a Sidecar. I think I > > Did you ever get the Sidecar to work? Did a bench test w/o the amiga, and didn't see any smoke (good sign?). I heard the HD make its expected noises, so at this point in time, I think the PC part works. Might have a prob in the shared memory part going to the Amiga. I have to clear out an area on the bench to set up everything. > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 08:08:18 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Interface Age? (was: Re: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > > > > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. IA = Interface Age? (An early computer magazine, from the late 70's and early 80's) I do remember the "Floppy Roms" ('soundsheets' or really thin 45-rpm records that could be bound into a magazine. Remember those free records that came on cereal boxes? Same sort of thing, but without the cardboard backing) From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 27 08:58:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Computer controlled pipe organs (was: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > > [...] Hammond Organs, Subotnick, etc. > > > > We should talk in terms of how old computers were used > > for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We > > always seem to have one and often they are as interesting > > as any even if they are OT. Well, then let's get a discussion going about the uses of older computers with music, from real-time synthesis performed by computers to computers controlling synthesizers. I always thought it would be fun to have a large old pipe organ controlled by a hulking minicomputer with blinking lights, paying Bach's Fuge in D-minor, and, also controlled by the same system, special-effects lighting, a few fair-sized jacob's ladders and tesla coils... with all the circuitry external to the computer used for switching done by vacuum-tube circuitry, not SCRs, transistors, etc. :-) Does anyone know of any Wurlitzers controlled by computers or retrofitted to be controlled by computers? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 27 09:19:02 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Pipe organ controlled computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bfe042$a56646b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I thought I'd enter into the record an early classicmp experience. I got a chance to see the workings of a piece of office equipment, a memorywriter caller an "AutoTypist" being tossed by G.E. in 1980. It was a desk with an adapted typewriter on top (missing on this one) and a player piano roll underneath. The differences between this and the piano were probably neglible, when you looked at how the 'memory' part worked, paper rolls, air compressor, pressure pickup, mini bellows actuators. I never researched the history but I think the nameplate is saved somewhere if someone wanted to locate the (remnants of the) company. John A. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 16:05:05 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Computer controlled pipe organs (was: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello R. On 27-Jun-00, you wrote: >> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: >> >> [...] Hammond Organs, Subotnick, etc. >>> >>> We should talk in terms of how old computers were used >>> for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We >>> always seem to have one and often they are as interesting >>> as any even if they are OT. > > Well, then let's get a discussion going about the uses of older > computers with music, from real-time synthesis performed by computers > to computers controlling synthesizers. I always thought it would be > fun to have a large old pipe organ controlled by a hulking > minicomputer with blinking lights, paying Bach's Fuge in D-minor, and, > also controlled by the same system, special-effects lighting, a few > fair-sized jacob's ladders and tesla coils... with all the circuitry > external to the computer used for switching done by vacuum-tube > circuitry, not SCRs, transistors, etc. :-) Does anyone know of any > Wurlitzers controlled by computers or retrofitted to be controlled by > computers? > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 The only thing I know of, is a kit to retrofit Hammonds for midi, send only. So you can tie a keyboard in with your Hammond, but a computer can't play. Are you trying to replace my job with a button? GRRROOOWWWWLLLLLL!!?!? > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 27 10:11:29 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:31:48 -0400 "Bill Dawson" writes: > Perhaps I should have used the word "pattern"? Yes, similar things > occur with most collectibles and their followers. Clubs, newsletters, > meets, conventions, suppliers, etc. I think though that as far as > logistics go, we have much more in common with the antique radio > collectors than with collectors of Beanie Babies. Yeah, Beanie Baby prices are actually starting to go *down*. :^/ > The point I am trying to make is that all we have to do is observe > where the Antique Radio Collector field is today and how it got there. > We are following the same path. God forbid. I'm glad I have little or no interest in 'Vintage' radio-- I'd never be able to afford it. > We can take shortcuts and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is > not a fad, No quite, but damn near > Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put > on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even afford the air fare. I know I can't. > However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues, and > non-profit status would be a great boost to this collecting field. Yeah, it's gonna give prices a real boost, alright. Tell me how you think any kind of 'boost' is going to help, huh? I can see it now: I'm at a local surplus place, and I pick out Widget (or a part for one, more likely), and ask for a price. The guys says "Uhhh, well, those are *collectable* now, you know. $50.". Never mind the fact that I got one like it the year before for $10. > I know there are those that dread this hobby or whatever you want to > call it heading in an organized direction, with the attendant increase of > publicity and collectors. Why do I think this way? I see two types of > vintage computer collectors, the true historical preservationists and > the collectors. Isn't it odd, how "True historical preservationists" always seem to have the *deepest* pockets? > Collectors see organization and all that comes with it as a threat to > their ability to find those rare pieces (find it first) and increased > competition (pay as little as possible for it). Oh, okay, so I'm a 'collector' because I don't have thousands of dollars to throw at this. I see. I don't know about you, but I got into this because, at long last, I found a truly interesting hobby I could actually *afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as possible'. That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . . I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's. I was priced out of numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand idly by, to watch this happen again. > Why else all the complaining about eBay and the prices? Because alot of us won't be able to participate if the prices get too high, or are you so wealthy that this is too difficult for you to comprehend?!?! > Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our > computer technology for posterity. Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few. > If an organized association greatly furthers this cause than I > believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not > limiting "we" to mean just those on this list, but also those on > the many other vintage/classic hardware and software lists as well. > This can only help but further our cause of historical preservation. And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' can have it. This hobby is about people, as much as it is about technology (old and new). If you're going to squeeze out a group of its people, you may as well forget the group of technology that will get squeezed out with them, for the ones who are in charge won't care. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 27 10:48:18 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? URL for the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=359971659 Bill From louiss at gate.net Tue Jun 27 10:51:21 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Apple Profile Hard Drive info wanted In-Reply-To: <002301bfdfe5$b1575a20$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <200006271551.LAA13498@shuswap.gate.net> The straight through cable will work. Apple usually used straight through ribbon cables. If the drive doesn't work, describe the symptoms. Louis On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:13:40 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >I'm restoring a Lisa 2 and just got a Profile drive. Does anyone have the >schematics for the drive? > >Its got a DB-25 female connector on the back to hook up to the Lisa's >"parallel" DB-25 on the back. I don't have the original cable and I'm >thinking of trying an old 6 foot PC cable (all 25 signals in it) >Male-to-Male DB-25 to hook it up. Any reasons why this won't work? > >John > >jlewczyk@his.com > > From pat at transarc.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 11:14:57 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. > > There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? Doesn't appear to be anything special about it - chalk it up to "temporary eBay insanity", I guess ... But hey, if anyone wants to pay me $700 for my TRS-80 Model 1 in exactly the same configuration, send me a note.... ;-) --Pat. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 17:06:49 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: Hello Bill On 27-Jun-00, you wrote: > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. > > There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? It is the same reason we pay a dollar for drinks at our fast food outlets, and two dollars a gallon at the pumps. Too much money, too little schmarts. > > URL for the auction: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=359971659 > > Bill > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 11:23:47 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. > > There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? I think a lot of the bidding wars are just psychological. "I gotta win at any price", when, if they'd just back down and look around a little more, they'd find the exact same thing at 1/10th the price. There are also a lot of newbies who think most of the 80's home computers are collectors items that are going to substantially appreciate in value. (For the most part, they won't.) When I'm on E-bay, or whatever, I have my own idea of what a fair price is (certainly not a bare TRS-80 Model 1 for $700 bucks). From PasserM at umkc.edu Tue Jun 27 11:43:25 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735114@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I saw that one too--it had to be the description! --Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 10:48 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? URL for the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=359971659 Bill From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 11:55:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000627095400.02b01910@208.226.86.10> At 11:48 AM 6/27/00 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion >box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for >$700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. Badly done shill bidding? Perhaps the 0 feedback guy is an ebay streaker, you know one of those folks who bids outrageously and then vanishes. --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 11:48:53 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo References: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3958DAF5.4D2C6407@rain.org> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > /most of rant deleted > Isn't it odd, how "True historical preservationists" always seem to > have the *deepest* pockets? Isn't it also odd how the people with these "deep pockets" also seem to get a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and see what it means. > *afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as > possible'. > That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . . > > I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's. I was priced out of > numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand > idly by, to watch this happen again. Take a look at my prior comment. A book you might want to look at (but probably won't) is "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason. > > Why else all the complaining about eBay and the prices? > > Because alot of us won't be able to participate if the prices get > too high, or are you so wealthy that this is too difficult for you > to comprehend?!?! See comment #1. > > Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our > > computer technology for posterity. > > Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a > worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are > going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few. See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people that get things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would not want someone without the ability to manage having any control over my collection. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 11:52:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? References: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <3958DBD9.CCFF19F6@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. First, some people have more money than time. Second, the person who wrote the ad did a nice job (except for the time to download the damn thing.) I've noticed that the people who spend the time to really describe something get higher bids; an increase in bidder confidence? From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 27 11:53:16 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bfe058$30d87820$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Earn $150 an hour in WWW development! This may be proof of the appeal of a good looking web page. Fourteen photos, different fonts & layout, snazzy descriptios. Could that add up to all those hundreds? Probably not for every case but its my guess for this one. (I hope it wasn't just that BS Microsoft picture) John A. From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 27 12:40:03 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735114@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: <200006271740.KAA25582@civic.hal.com> "Passer, Michael" wrote: > I saw that one too--it had to be the description! > Hi Did anyone ask the bidders why they went so high? There may be a valid reason. Looking at the other bidders history, the next higher bidder was a regular buyer. The winning bid was by someone that has made no other purchases. He could have been a fake and wanted to see how high things would go. I would be quite interested to see how the sale goes through. The buyer has also resently changed his handle. Makes one wonder? Dwight From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 27 13:15:27 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:48:53 -0700 Marvin writes: > Isn't it also odd how the people with these "deep pockets" also seem > to get > a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and > see what > it means. Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go: So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of a such as noble endeavor such as ours? So your saying: "Sorry, if you can't pay, you don't deserve to play". What a crock of shit. Accomplish what!?! All it means to me is, is that some guys can delude themselves into thinking that if they pour money into something, they can call it a hobby. They haven't go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well, what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff. Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're kidding yourself. > See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people > that get > things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would > not want > someone without the ability to manage having any control over my > collection. Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't know that something existed before. Yeah, we're going to pass this all on, right? Yeah, when we're all dead, and there no one around to tell the story . . . Now as a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's ass about your collection. What you do with it is *your* business. What I *do* care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something else to do, because the prices are out of sight. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From PasserM at umkc.edu Tue Jun 27 13:28:12 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773511C@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> The highest unsuccessful bid was also for $700 by someone with a feedback rating of 232. He didn't succeed because the winner had placed his $700 bid the day before. There were four bids for >$600, and one for $250. (from http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=359971659) I do think it was the well-written description and all the pictures that pushed the price up into the stratosphere. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dwight Elvey Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 12:40 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: $700 TRS-80??? "Passer, Michael" wrote: > I saw that one too--it had to be the description! > Hi Did anyone ask the bidders why they went so high? There may be a valid reason. Looking at the other bidders history, the next higher bidder was a regular buyer. The winning bid was by someone that has made no other purchases. He could have been a fake and wanted to see how high things would go. I would be quite interested to see how the sale goes through. The buyer has also resently changed his handle. Makes one wonder? Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 27 13:35:56 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <000627143556.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> >I do think it was the well-written description and >all the pictures that pushed the price up into the >stratosphere. Very true. I remember trying to give some stuff (a bunch of 42" racks, old 14" disk drives, etc.) away five or so years ago, and nobody was interested. But then I attached a price and got several folks to show up to take it away. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 13:24:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Jun 27, 0 10:11:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4513 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/0669647f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 13:29:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: <3958DAF5.4D2C6407@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 27, 0 09:48:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/b6446223/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 13:40:31 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > > Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put > > on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. > > I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even > afford the air fare. I know I can't. So what? At least some people can afford to go. For a lucky few, it might just be a short trip in the car. Better a few than none... > Yeah, it's gonna give prices a real boost, alright. Tell me how > you think any kind of 'boost' is going to help, huh? How about real museums? How about speadiung knowledge - informing the public and each other about the history? How about saving hardware and software that is out of the reach af any individual? How about professional recognition? How about security for our collections? > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > can have it. Jeff, take your stinking attitude and get out of town. Please. The one thing that hurts retrocomputing more than anything else is someone like you. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 27 13:52:54 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773511C@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: <000801bfe068$e6b51170$350810ac@chipware.com> Ok, Ok. I just wanted to be sure that it didn't have some unusual feature that I should go home and check my TRS-80s for. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 14:13:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA8@TEGNTSERVER> Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking up a working computer to end up with parts he can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. FWIW, I was going to steal one part- the plexiglass door of the TS05 tape drive- to put in place of a broken one on a Cipher. The broken Cipher door works, even broken, and will still work when glued back together- it will just look like sh*t. How- ever, I would have either preserved the system in all other ways, or even tried restoring it. Well, souless b*st*rds are prolifigate, and some are circling overhead like vultures. The only good note: I'll get the TS05 for US$5.00. I doubt I'll take the rack. Perhaps someday I'll need a part from the TS05 (assuming it *IS* really a Cipher streamer inside). Oh well. Hi ho. -doug quebbeman From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 14:15:42 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the collecting cost issue again. This was one of Jeff's salvos: >What I *do* >care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue >computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something >else to do, because the prices are out of sight. This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based machines). These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are also available for free in quite a few places. You can approach this particular class of machine as the point where computers ceased being glorified "toys" and actually started being able to do real work. If the IBM PC made it "acceptable" for mainstream business to give its employees one computer each, it was the PC/AT that cemented this relationship and made it possible to do work. This was the "start" of the "Millions of standards" bifurcation in the computer industry, as up to this point computers were "99%" PC compatible because everything was the same on them. PC/AT introduced us to an I/O slot that could support a larger memory map and that lead to a host of new video controllers (several examples could be collected from the "famous" ones like the Orchid series and Hercules series, to the "infamous" ones.) Analog monitors came about to support these cards and the very first "multisync" monitor was introduced. [it impressed the heck out of me, even if it did make big clicking noises as it tryed to swap in different components.] There is research to be done, knowledge to recover, and artifacts to collect. All at very low prices. Then there is the understanding of Computation, as Richard Feynman and others understood it, things like the Babbage difference engine and the Eniac. Often you can re-create this sort of thing from scratch as a hobby for less than it would cost to acquire an original artifact. People still by Digi-Comp 1's at Garage Sales for $1 even when they go for >$300 on Ebay and elsewhere. You can make your own Digi-Comp 1 out of plastic from plans on the Net for about $50. Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well recognized while others remain anonymous. If you want one of those machines then you are now going to have to compete with this group of people to acquire one. New ones aren't being made (except for IMSAI's :-) so the supply is fixed/dwindling. You can compete with your feet by tracking nice pieces down (this is essentially what Antique Dealers have done forever) or with your wallet. You can complain about how your feet are tired and your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 27 14:32:30 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <000627153230.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > can have it. Do we need 'true historical preservationists'? Maybe. Does that mean that the priorities of the 'true preservationists' will be the same as those who actually worked with the systems or still use the systems? Of course not. In fact, the priorities will probably be vastly different between the two groups, and this is all the better reason for both groups to co-exist, probably with at least a bit of animosity towards each other. How do priorities differ, even among "hobby" preservationists? Several ways: 1. Some insist on a pristine as-shipped-from-the-manufacturer system, with no third-party peripherals or software, and others realize that in real life there were very few such configurations and instead preserve the systems as they were actually installed, with third-party peripherals and software abounding. 2. Some only care about CPU's, and will travel hundreds or thousands of miles to pick up the CPU box, and leave the peripherals (necessary to boot the OS!) behind. Others put more emphasis on getting a few complete working systems rather than a bunch of CPU boxes that can't ever be booted. 3. Some haul away hardware, and leave a mountain of magtapes behind with the operating system, etc. Others haul away hardware and tapes and disks but leave the books behind. Others just want the books, others just want the tapes. I've seen every single one of the above characteristics exhibited by "amateur" collectors, and every single one of the above possibilities exhibited by "professional" collectors. Personally, I fall into the "put any old hardware together that makes a system work, don't care whether it's original or third party, get complete systems with peripherals, and spend lots of time archiving the software" category. Every person on this list probably falls into a different category. I may not agree with everyone's priorities, but in some sense a wide range of priorities from a wide range of people is a *probably* a good thing. Tim. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 14:53:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Internat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA9@TEGNTSERVER> > Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go: > So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of > a such as noble endeavor such as ours? Jeff, I'm using your quote as a starting point, please don't think I'm picking on you. Well, somewhere between rich and poor (I tend to count myself the latter), there must be middle ground. My current focus is on Primes, and I'm playing fast-and- loose with my bills (as well as selling things I'd rather keep) to try to get this system to a certain point where I'll feel comfortable with. However, had I managed to save that MicroPDP-11/73 from the Jaws of Greed, I would likely have simply held on to it until I could find a better home for it. Strictly speaking, I'd say that's collecting and not preservationist. But at least I'd have kept it from the landfill. Ideally, the poor collectors amongst us can do lots of that. But I think it's incumbent upon us to be ready to give up posession to someone who can do the item more justice than we can. I think a phrase commonly stated about relationships might be applicable here. Rephrased: If you love something, let it go. I'm letting go of at least one of two unfinished SOL motherboards very, very soon (but my original working SOL I will keep). As to the rich: by virtue of your economic power, you might easily fall into the trap of compulsive acquisition. Fewer constraints hold you back, and so the ID runs wild. Had the Evil Lurker been restoring a personal system with the parts he was looking for, it would not have bothered me a wit. I'd like to take solace in knowing there's a good chance someone restoring a system will see the parts he has for sale, and buy them. But I'm afraid they'll just enter a nonterminating speculative loop. So, to the rich, let me say this: try to be aware of what's going on around you, and if you see you're trying to acquire something that some poor guy is also going for, remember, this may be his only chance, and you'll likely have another. And to the poor guys (like me), I say: be willing to give something up to someone who can actually get it going sooner than the 20 years it might take you due to your more limited financial resources. Just my tuppence' worth... regards, -doug q From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 13:56:02 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > I would urge just about everyone on this list to look into joining or > forming a group. The rewards are great. Rhode Island, that little state > tucked away on the East, has two groups, RCS/RI and RICM. The West Coast > has the Computer History Center (I bet they wouldn't mind a few > volunteers). I am quite suprised that the DC area is lacking any group, as > it seems to be a hotbed of vintage computing. The same strikes me about > the Midwest (Chicago) as well. I totally concur. More people should band together in their regions to form computer history centers. In the very least get clubs going where you meet at least once a month to swap hints & tips and work on machines together. We have an informal "club" here in the Bay Area where we meet monthly at the offices of Stan Sieler. Stan picks a rough theme and we all bring machines to work on. We swap stuff, bring information and parts that others need, etc. It's a lot of fun. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 13:58:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. > > The other two were KB (Kilobaud) and IA (interface age). You were right the first time around. It is Interface Age. I found the issues with the floppy ROMs today. I also came across a good run of KC but didn't look through them. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 15:01:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Now, alas, there's no way I could afford a valve radio at the prices they > sell for over here. A common battery portable, useless to most people > because the batteries are impossible to obtain, sells for \pounds 50.00. > Anything Bakelite is going to sell for over \pounds 100.00. Computers or radio - why all this thinking that they are all expensive? Certainly there are scores of free computers (good ones, too) available all of the time. Do what I do - TRADE. You need to build up some trading stock, but that is not hard nor is it expensive. Then start the swaps. You might also start selling stuff at hamfest (rallies) - it always suprises me what little bit of junk I manage to sell, most of which I have no money in. Now this won't make so much money that you can retire (well, maybe if your really good), but a good day at a hamfest might make that radio or computer you have been eyeing look VERY affordable. For example, I have a lot of junk. And I mean a lot of junk. It basically consists of parts pulled out of whatever freebies I get that are not worth keeping, minus the parts I keep for my own projects. The junk gets thrown into big grey bins and hauled to the hamfest. The pricing is simple - the _buyer_ names the price and I take it. Most people are very fair, and on a good day, I can make a nice lump of cash on just the junk out of the bins. With that money, a $100 radio or computer part is not an impossible dream. In fact it can be quite painless. > I've actually heard it said that the person who pays more for an item is > the person who most wants it, and who will best look after it. To which > there is only one sane answer : Rubbish. I have seen a lot of collections around the country, many of quite notable "deep pocket" collectors, and I can conclude that these "big guns" do treat their collections better than the norm. Just an observation. And before someone puts words in my mouth - this does _not_ mean that that the all (or even most) "normal" collectors treat their things poorly. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:01:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > loop that doesn't respond at the speed of light. However, I > use delivery and read receipts on all my mail, and if I at > least get a receipt back, then I know I'm most likely "in > the queue". Failure to receive same leaves me wondering if > my message was even received. Not all ISPs and mailers support I'd be more worried if my message was received but then not replied to. I'd feel more comfortable if I didn't get a receipt yet. That would imply the person is too busy to even check e-mail yet. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 27 15:06:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Internat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) Message-ID: <000627160652.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> >Had the Evil Lurker been restoring a personal system >with the parts he was looking for, it would not have >bothered me a wit. On the gripping hand, I know of some "collectors" (as in they acquire large amounts of stuff without looking for commercial gain) who will, for example, rip all the boards out of a working VAX 8650 but leave the chassis behind, because they have no way of hauling the chassis cabinets nor a place to put them. As far as I can tell, nobody wins here, because a working 8650 was turned into a pile of nearly-worthless parts that will simply sit in the basement for a couple of decades. Does this stop the offenders? Of course not! Tim. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 15:13:59 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA8@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627125942.00bc2f00@208.226.86.10> At 03:13 PM 6/27/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on >the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris >Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking >up a working computer to end up with parts he >can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He >wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the >seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. I'm sorry but I can't agree with the sentiment here. Chris and people like him are very valuable to this community, they will often have parts in their warehouses that can bring a new acquistion back to life after a long period of dormancy. This is one of the other aspects of Ebay that hasn't really been debated to death, which is that the people who make their living selling replacement/refurbished/used parts to keep older computers alive "discovered" Ebay not so long ago and suddenly the price of piece parts went up. I know of at least half a dozen folks who are DEC resellers (some even reading this list) that recognize an "ebay" bargain as such and act on it. Let's take for example Mitch Miller from Keyways, he sells DEC stuff (www.keyways.com) and he buys stuff on Ebay. Now Mitch quotes the price of an M8043 (last time I asked) at $125. I watched him buy four for $50 on Ebay. That is a really good deal for him. (Not so good for me) However, I do know that if I absolutely had to have one I could call up Mitch and he would send me one at some high price. Money == Time. However, knowing that this is true (resellers haunting ebay) I knew that "your" 11/73 would not be yours for less than about $75 (value of the parts in side of it) Although why he wanted the backplane I can't figure. On an unrelated note, I've got a 5' tall DEC rack (black and tan, door in the back) available for "free" FOB Sunnyvale California. Like most things, while it is in great shape it probably isn't worth the cost of shipping it unless you _really, really_ need an official DEC rack. It was half of a DEC Channel Server and has a coax patch panel inside of it. (which you can have or leave behind, your choice, but if you take the coax patch panel you must also take the rack, themz the rulez) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 27 15:15:54 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA8@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 27, 2000 03:13:41 PM Message-ID: <200006272015.NAA05039@shell1.aracnet.com> > Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on > the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris > Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking > up a working computer to end up with parts he > can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He > wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the > seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. Grow up! I don't know who he is, but I've a feeling he's someone trying to keep systems doing real work in operating order. You bid to low on a piece of valuable equipment, and you lost. Live with it. Especially since you were apparently told you were bidding low! You do realize that PDP-11's are more than just cool toys don't you? There are people/companies whose livelyhood depends on these systems and their continueing to run. The only thing I can see that the buyer did wrong was leaving the powersupply! At least from what you've said I assume he left it. If he went so far as to get the backplane he really should have taken that. Zane From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:14:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put > > on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. > > I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even > afford the air fare. I know I can't. C'mon. You gotta look for those super-saver airfare deals. Check out www.cheaptickets.com and www.bestfares.com for cheap airline specials. You can usually find roundtrip flights across the country for $198 or less. VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 at the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose (you'll want to land in SJO). Formal announcement coming soon. > Oh, okay, so I'm a 'collector' because I don't have thousands of dollars > to throw at this. I see. I don't know about you, but I got into this > because, at long last, I found a truly interesting hobby I could actually > *afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as > possible'. > That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . . Yeah, I have to agre with this sentiment. This "hobby" is about as official as you can get. It's definitely arrived. We don't need high prices established in order to make it any more legitimate. > I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's. I was priced out of > numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand > idly by, to watch this happen again. Preach on, Brother Jeff! ;) > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > can have it. There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian. > This hobby is about people, as much as it is about technology > (old and new). If you're going to squeeze out a group of its > people, you may as well forget the group of technology that > will get squeezed out with them, for the ones who are in charge > won't care. Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are responsbile for uncovering the history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 15:20:48 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Internat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) In-Reply-To: <000627160652.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > On the gripping hand, I know of some "collectors" (as > in they acquire large amounts of stuff without looking for > commercial gain) who will, for example, rip all the boards out of > a working VAX 8650 but leave the chassis behind, because they have > no way of hauling the chassis cabinets nor a place to put them. As > far as I can tell, nobody wins here, because a working 8650 was turned > into a pile of nearly-worthless parts that will simply sit in the basement > for a couple of decades. Does this stop the offenders? Of course not! What if the machines are to be scrapped in a hurry, and no one can take the whole thing? I would think that gutting the things is the best option. A few parts are better than nothing... I have done this - specifically with a VAX-11/750 and 4D/380. These were advertised on this list in the very early days, but I was apparently the only one that could even get close to the machines. Needless to say, I couldn't take the machines as a whole, so the cards were pulled. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:41:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Heck, I couldn't even afford to get to VCF-Europe, let alone the States. > But if there's ever a VCF-UK, I'll be there. Somehow. I'll even volunteer > to bring some machines and give a talk. Philip Belben expressed an interest in organizing VCF-UK. I'm holding him up to it. I told him if he doesn't I was going to scan those pictures I have of him in a compromising position and spread them around the internet :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 13:46:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Jun 27, 0 01:15:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4237 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/d7f61ad4/attachment.ksh From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 15:52:29 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue > computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that > are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based > machines). Anything else? (I've stuck mostly with 8-bit machines from the 80's...Apples, Commodores, etc. and generally pay about $25 on average per cpu..and, as far as I can tell, prices on these machines are falling. (Often, though, I've gotten stuff like this for free, just haul it away before it hits the trash can) Of course, there are anomalies, like the $700 TRS-80 we discussed earlier. (But that predates E-bay...check out some back issues of "Computer Shopper" from the early 90's, and try to find all the Timex Sinclairs someone was trying to foist off for $500+) [...] > > Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers > > Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on > antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in > this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well > recognized while others remain anonymous. Those are the usual suspects, Imsai, Altair, Apple I. But of course, there are a number of less well known machines: the SWTPC, the single boards like the KIM and AIM... An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes and parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same with collecting synthesizers. People will tack on "ARP Moog" to a description of some no-name keyboard and expect the world to be impressed... From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 15:53:25 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? References: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <39591445.89170BC8@rain.org> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:48:53 -0700 Marvin writes: > > Isn't it also odd how the people with these "deep pockets" also seem > > to get > > a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and > > see what > > it means. > > Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go: > So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of > a such as noble endeavor such as ours? Oh come on, do we have to play the "I have to use small words so you will understand" game? I hope not, but your "let's go" has nothing to do with what I said. "Worthy" is not the issue; getting something done *is* the issue. > So your saying: "Sorry, if you can't pay, you don't deserve to play". > What a crock of shit. Accomplish what!?! All it means to me is, > is that some guys can delude themselves into thinking that if they > pour money into something, they can call it a hobby. They haven't > go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well, > what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff. > > Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're > kidding yourself. See comment #1; don't put words in my mouth. As far as "paying", there have been *many* discussion on this list that most of this stuff is available free or very close to free for anyone willing to do the research. And for a few others, I also realize that where we live makes it easier or harder to acquire this stuff. Your statement about appreciation can be turned around to say that you cannot appreciate what it takes to make *and keep* money; both your and my statements have grains of truth in them. > > See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people > > that get > > things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would > > not want > > someone without the ability to manage having any control over my > > collection. > > Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing > cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell > that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell > that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't > know that something existed before. Yeah, we're going to pass > this all on, right? Yeah, when we're all dead, and there no > one around to tell the story . . . See comment #1. What I am saying is that if someone can't manage the resources they already have access to, then expecting others to subsidize the lack of management skills is more than a bit naive. > Now as a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's ass about your > collection. What you do with it is *your* business. What I *do* > care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue > computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something > else to do, because the prices are out of sight. , It also matters not at all to me what you think or do. At the point you leave the "poor me" attitude behind, and start looking at why your situation exists (whatever that might be), then you will *begin* to be able to do something about it (assuming you even want to.) Your complaints about prices are reflective of your attitudes and they don't seem to be particularly productive. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:53:38 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the collecting cost issue > again. This was one of Jeff's salvos: > > >What I *do* > >care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue > >computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something > >else to do, because the prices are out of sight. > > This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue > computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that > are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based > machines). > > These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are > also available for free in quite a few places. Other ideas: * create an archive of software...you can find disks for all types of computers at thrift stores and flea markets; generally a buck or less a piece; a software archive is a very important element in this hobby, since not many people seem to be archiving software on a large scale * create a classic computer book library...you can find them in hoards at thrift stores, library book sales, and of course used book stores (although used book store prices tend to be a little high usually); such a library will be an indespensible resource for your local computer collector community; don't forget computer manuals and software manuals as well * create an ephemera archive: t-shirts, buttons, posters, etc; this would basically be a material culture archive, which may bring you big bucks later on when a researcher or someone writing a book wants to borrow your collection to get some photos All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the machines). > You can complain about how your feet are tired and > your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. I like that :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:00:23 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yeah, I have to agre with this sentiment. This "hobby" is about as > official as you can get. It's definitely arrived. We don't need high > prices established in order to make it any more legitimate. How will the formation of an official group make prices go up? Please explain, as I don't see any connection. If anything, most official organizations _do_not_allow_ commercial dealing (generally outlawed from the museums and journals). Prices are independent, under some other influence. > There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall > there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with > computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the > sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into > researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian. There is certainly room for amateurs. I have no history degree, but I am welcome in several historical organizations. > Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are responsbile for uncovering the > history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee > they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being > the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual > collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario. I must disagree here - machines in the hands of museums is better. Museums are starting to recognize the history of computers, so many of the horror stories we hear about computers being mistreated (or vaporizing!) at museums are turning into just stories. Museums offer far greater security for the artifacts. It takes a great deal to destroy a museum and its contents. On the other hand, the death or sickness of one person can destroy a whole private collection. This happens all of the time - someone dies and the house is cleared out. For all of the talk about including parts of wills that can deal with these types of disasters - how many of us have _actually_ gone about doing it? In fact, I would like anyone on this list to email me privately with an answer if they have, and I will tally the results. I will keep individual answers confidential. Also, keep in mind that museums are public. Private collections are not. While there are some private collections that do a great job of showing off to the public, there are at least ten times that number that are very closed and effectively hidden. What good do those collections do for the advancement of knowledge? Not a whole lot. Certainly there are people on this list with very rare, significant machines, software, and docs, but they are not accessable in any way. Some won't even admit that they even have the artifacts. I would also bet that not a whole lot of private collectors would even entertain the thought of having a stranger view or study an artifact. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Jun 27 14:51:27 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) References: Message-ID: <015901bfe071$153b5740$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I'm not shure but couldn't this be circumvented with "driver.sys" It will take a few bytes of memory more than DRIVPARM but it should work on any IBM-compatibe system including the ones from big blue itself . Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:58 PM Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) > The problem with using DRIVPARM appears to be an incompatibility with the > IBM BIOS, NOT an issue of which version of the OS! > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:08:59 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAB@TEGNTSERVER> > At 03:13 PM 6/27/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on > >the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris > >Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking > >up a working computer to end up with parts he > >can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He > >wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the > >seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. > > I'm sorry but I can't agree with the sentiment here. I appear to have been guilty of projecting, in this case, reading into your previous remarks what I was feeling. Sorry. I'm desparately looking for parts, but I'd sooner cut off a limb than rob them from a working system until _every_ effort has been made to find a good home for that system. This one appeared to be lacking an OS (or anything for it to reside on) but I see that as minor compared to systems with disfunctional stuff in the backplace. But I gotta admit, I'm making way too much noise over a doggone PDP-11 when they aren't my forte to begin with. At least I get the tape drive. regards, -doug q From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 27 16:10:11 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <20000627.161019.-287727.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:40:31 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli writes: > So what? At least some people can afford to go. For a lucky few, it > might just be a short trip in the car. Better a few than none... If you can afford it, go. My point is that despite organized efforts, not everyone will have access (for various reasons). This isn't the promoter's fault; it's usually a matter of geography. > How about real museums? Nice, but individual ownership is a much more valuable experience (to the individual). Not possible once these systems become 'Museum Pieces'. > How about speadiung knowledge - informing the public and each > other about the history? We have forums like this one. But I guess you'll *need* an 'official' organization now: It's becomming apparent that only certain opinions are now considered 'acceptable'. > How about saving hardware and software that is out of the reach > af any individual? Groups of caring individuals have always worked together towards this end. In the past, the money wasn't a motivation. I don't know if this will reman the case in the future. > How about professional recognition? I always figured that the real {hobbyists | enthusiasts} weren't (by definition) 'professionals'. The original developers? Write one a letter, thanking them for their contribution. I did. How about security for our collections? Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked. > > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a > 'legitimate' > > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > > can have it. > > Jeff, take your stinking attitude and get out of town. Please. The > one thing that hurts retrocomputing more than anything else is someone > like you. You know, I could get really angry at this last remark, but it just makes me sad. (Retro)computing was a 'joy' thing. It was so awesome because just about anyone could experience it. It was really something special because it's only major cost was the time and effort you put into it. What really mattered was what came from the heart, really. What really matters now, is what comes from the wallet. I guess it really wasn't so special afterall. Bye. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:12:55 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAC@TEGNTSERVER> > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > loop that doesn't respond at the speed of light. However, I > > use delivery and read receipts on all my mail, and if I at > > least get a receipt back, then I know I'm most likely "in > > the queue". Failure to receive same leaves me wondering if > > my message was even received. Not all ISPs and mailers support > > I'd be more worried if my message was received but then not replied to. > I'd feel more comfortable if I didn't get a receipt yet. That would imply > the person is too busy to even check e-mail yet. Hmmm, I'd say it would imply the person really isn't very technologically sophisticated... "Does that little envelope mean I've got mail, or that I should write some?" -dq From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 27 16:13:18 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <200006272113.OAA25861@civic.hal.com> Hi While I am a fixer upper type, I can afford reasonable prices for some of the items I've collected. There are a few things that I'd like to have but still think are out of my price range. Even though I don't collect for profit ( I couldn't think of parting with one of my babies ), I like to see that some of the items have enough value that they will not be considered so much junk to toss out. While eBay does cause the prices to inflate, it has also helped to preserve items that would have otherwise been treated as junk. Other than personal enjoyment, if these things didn't have value, they would have been tossed with old TV guides and no one would have any. What I'm trying to say is that it is a double edged sword. I don't think that the prices are anywhere as inflated as beany babies ( with the exception of the occasional gold plated TRS-80 ). Those that want the hobby to be more popular will have to realize that the limited resource will be more expensive. The comparison to old radios is a correct one. It is how it will be so long as there is demand. You can lament the change but it will still happen. I will pay what I think is a fair price. If that means that someone less fortunate than I won't get the item, I'm sorry. This is just the way life is. You can alway start a revolt and have a communist system. That way everyone will be equally poor. Misery loves company. Rule #1 Life isn't fair and never will be. A person just needs to understand that rule and how they can do the best they can. It sets limits. We don't have to like them. Some times we can even change them but they will always be there in one form or another. Dwight From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:16:33 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAD@TEGNTSERVER> > You do realize that PDP-11's are more than just cool toys don't you? There > are people/companies whose livelyhood depends on these systems and their > continueing to run. Nah, running a CAT scanner is just child's play. And AFAIC, I don't really want to play with a PDP-11; I just didn't want to see an otherwise complete system that was two components away from total restoration ripped to shreds! > The only thing I can see that the buyer did wrong was leaving the > powersupply! At least from what you've said I assume he left > it. If he went so far as to get the backplane he really should have > taken that. He's taking about a third, and leaving two thirds. The rack is staying behind too. But I guess DEC racks grow on trees. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:22:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Inte rnat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAE@TEGNTSERVER> > What if the machines are to be scrapped in a hurry, and no one can take > the whole thing? I would think that gutting the things is the best > option. A few parts are better than nothing... > > I have done this - specifically with a VAX-11/750 and 4D/380. These were > advertised on this list in the very early days, but I was apparently the > only one that could even get close to the machines. Needless to say, I > couldn't take the machines as a whole, so the cards were pulled. If that's the only choice- landfill or reduction to parts- sure, reduce it to parts. Sometimes, there's middle ground... -dq From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 27 16:22:43 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006272122.OAA25874@civic.hal.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall > there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with > computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the > sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into > researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian. Hi I would qualify this with the statement that the information needs to be passed on. This means that sharing what you've learned and documenting what you've got is as important as squirreling away a old machine. > Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are responsbile for uncovering the > history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee > they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being > the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual > collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario. Agreed. Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 16:34:33 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: References: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627143255.00d60b20@208.226.86.10> At 07:46 PM 6/27/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were >ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in. Sounds a bit like the joke, "What that place? Nobody goes there anymore, its too crowded!" --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 16:35:15 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: References: Message-ID: <39591E13.91D73040@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a > > > worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are > > > going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few. > > > > See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people that get > > things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would not want > > someone without the ability to manage having any control over my collection. > > > > Are you somehow suggesting that because I have almost no income and > little money that I am somehow clueless and not fit to own or work on > classic computers? > > Because if so, I take that as a very personal insult. I have no idea how you read "clueless ..." into "ability to manage". What I said was a statement of fact, and certainly not an insult to you or anyone else. My frame of reference in all of this is managing a large collection such as what a museum might have on display, or an organization such as the IVCA. We all have different talents and interests, and a good technical background does not necessarily imply good management skills. My collection at this point numbers conservatively in the many, many thousands of manuals, docs, etc. as well as close to a thousand computers, monitors, printers, and peripherals. Some of the stuff (Polymorphic software) is irreplacable. I am acutely aware of the need for management and organizational skills (which I do not have, and have no particular desire to acquire) needed to do something with the collection. I might add (and this is also *not* an insult) that your situation, and mine, is a result of our choices in life. Money is certainly not a driving force in my life, and people who have been to my house understand that :). > I see no correlation _at all_ between the amount of money a person > happens to have and their interest in computer restoration. Or their > knowledge of electronics/computing/engineering/etc. Or their ability to > keep a collection together and look after it. This thread started because Jeff was complaining about the rising prices of acquiring this stuff, and how this would lead to not being able to be a part of this hobby. My comment was basically that the people who had money to but this stuff had (for the most part) already demonstrated an ability to manage their resouces (money) wisely in a way to make them increase (or at least not decrease.) *Those* are the people able to organize a successful organization. One example here on the list is Sellam; he didn't just talk about a computer show but went ahead and started something. And Sellam has been one of the people on this list saying that the machines are still available for free or very little (at least in parts of the US.) Another thought re participation, the people without organizational skills generally end up working for someone that has them. Hence the participation can still be there, just not the control. I would disagree with your statement that there is no correlation between a persons resources and an ability to keep a collection together and look after it. It needs to be added that I am talking in the context of the original thread; that of an IVCA. Would you (or Jeff) really feel comfortable trying to manage such an organization? Everything I have seen from you to date indicates that you are extremely competent from a technical standpoint, and would most likely be bored to death with the details of running such an organization. However without skills such as yours, a collection would be nothing more than a stagnant display or pile of boxes. There is a place for anyone who wants to be a part. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 16:37:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627143456.00e6f780@208.226.86.10> At 05:00 PM 6/27/00 -0400, William wrote: >How will the formation of an official group make prices go up? Please >explain, as I don't see any connection. I'm presuming that the theory here is that when an "official" organization erupts they start to create visibility for the activity they are promoting (they almost have to to survive) and this gets more people interested and then the demand goes up so prices rise. --Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:38:18 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.161019.-287727.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > Nice, but individual ownership is a much more valuable experience > (to the individual). Not possible once these systems become > 'Museum Pieces'. Not true. Nearly every museum will welcome volunteers with open arms, and as long as the artifcats are not abused, they can be worked on and used. Just about anyone on this list is welcome at RCS/RI to play with any of our machines. Once we know people well enough, machines can be taken home on a loan basis. In this we are not some odd organization - many museums work exactly in this fashion. And the price is zero. > We have forums like this one. But I guess you'll *need* an > 'official' organization now: It's becomming apparent that only > certain opinions are now considered 'acceptable'. The official organizations don't publish opinions, but research. Check out the *Analytical Engines* from CHAC - real research that really has no place on a forum like this (too long and heavy, basically), but is really valuable. > Groups of caring individuals have always worked together towards > this end. In the past, the money wasn't a motivation. I don't > know if this will reman the case in the future. Here I am talking about big systems. Most people just don't have the resources to even go get them, but in a museum resources can be pooled. > I always figured that the real {hobbyists | enthusiasts} weren't > (by definition) 'professionals'. The original developers? Write > one a letter, thanking them for their contribution. I did. Many companies and organizations often look down on (or even ignore) amateur historians, no matter how profound the work. With even a silly thing like credentials that really are not worth much (really, what is "RCS/RI" worth?), many people's views can be changed. > Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked. Not just physical (theft) security, but the well being of the artifacts. A door won't stop a heart attack. > You know, I could get really angry at this last remark, but it just > makes me sad. (Retro)computing was a 'joy' thing. It was so > awesome because just about anyone could experience it. It was > really something special because it's only major cost was the time > and effort you put into it. Well, things really have not changed that much. You can still play with old computers - good old computers - for a song. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 16:42:48 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate References: Message-ID: <39591FD8.19729503@rain.org> "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > > An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai > Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes and > parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same with > collecting synthesizers. People will tack on "ARP Moog" to a description > of some no-name keyboard and expect the world to be impressed... It is not amazing that it happens, but it would be truly amazing if it did not. Knowledgeable Ebay (and other such auctions) put what they consider to be keywords in the description that will attract those people using the search engine. Just common sense. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:46:47 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627143456.00e6f780@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: > I'm presuming that the theory here is that when an "official" organization > erupts they start to create visibility for the activity they are promoting > (they almost have to to survive) and this gets more people interested and > then the demand goes up so prices rise. That seems to be the wrong way round. The people are getting interested, prices are rising, and a few people want to start an organization to perhaps regulate it. Such an organization could "preach" that many of these old computers are far more common that people realize, and perhaps so many won't be fooled. For example, page one of the official journal might have an article about how ALL old Macs have signatures inside them. Or even section of classified ads for FREE COMPUTERS. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 27 16:50:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 2000 12:53:38 PM Message-ID: <200006272150.OAA25322@shell1.aracnet.com> Sellam wrote: > All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so > since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I > would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the > machines). The Software and Manuals ARE the most important! Without those two items a system is nothing but a lifeless hunk of metal, silicon, and plastic. It took me almost a year after getting my first PDP-11 before I could actually do anything with it. Why? Because I needed manuals and software. This is probably why about the only thing I'm still collecting is Documentation. Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:50:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <39591FD8.19729503@rain.org> Message-ID: > It is not amazing that it happens, but it would be truly amazing if it did > not. Knowledgeable Ebay (and other such auctions) put what they consider to > be keywords in the description that will attract those people using the > search engine. Just common sense. Yes, simply because very few people actually browse categories anymore because of the huge increase of new items. Searches are just about essential. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 27 15:49:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 11:55 AM Subject: $700 TRS-80??? >Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion >box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for >$700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. Stupidity. >There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in >the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and >no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? buy the cheap one. ;) Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 27 16:55:04 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo References: Message-ID: <395922B8.EC9504CF@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were > ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in. For some value of "ruined". I somehow doubt that the people who were dumping money in perceived it as a ruining proposition. > And I don't want classic computing to go the same way. I doubt anyone wants the hobby "ruined", but if the influx of money is synonymous with "ruined" then it's utterly unclear that there's anything that you can do or say to affect the situation. > > go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well, > > what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff. > > Yep!. At least for me there's no interest at all in having a shelf of > perfectly working old computers and paying a person to look after them > and run them for me. I want to get inside the machines myself. I want to > stare at 'scope screens and assembly listings. I want to fix the darn > thing and enjoy the experience of it working again for the first time in > perhaps 10 years or more. I could read this statement as an incredibly arrogant one. The implication is that if one has money to pour into a hobby that they are unwilling or unable to pick the machines apart or derive pleasure from the same activities that you do. I unfamiliar with any evidence to support such a supposition, nor the implication that the poor hacker is inherently more capable. > > > > Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're > > kidding yourself. > > Only one slight problem. If you price the true enthusiasts out of the > hobby then who are you going to get to fix the machines. You seem to believe that the two communities are mutually exclusive. They're not. > The person who wasn't rich enough to afford a service contract is the > person who learnt to fix the machine himself. And who can fix similar > machines now if only he works on them for a few months. > > The person who couldn't afford the ready-written commercial software is > the person who wrote his own. And who can still program in the languages > used by classic computers. Ah, maybe I'm getting it. The premise is that people with money have always had money and thus would never have learned these skills? This doesn't seem to admit the possibility of people having acquired their money because they *have* these very skills. YMMV, and I have a sense that perhaps it did. [snip] > > Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing > > cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell > > Seems like it :-( > > > that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell > > Try telling it to the unemployed hardware hacker who's figured out how to > fix things that the manufacturer claimed could only be repaired at their > factory with special equipment. If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said hacker is unemployed save by choice. > > that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't > > 14 years ago I realised that unless something was done than all sorts of > computers, many quite common, and operating practices, were going to be > lost for ever. I met programmers who had no idea how data could be stored > as holes in a strip of paper. Electronic designers who thought there was > something magic about how a CPU worked and that it was more than just a > collection of gates and flip-flops. The more things change the more they stay the same. Contemporary synthesis tools are useless for speeds much above 300MHz, so we're back to building custom blocks out of transistors with precharge. Does every designer understand this stuff? No. Does every designer need to? No. Does everyone need to know about paper tape, punch cards and chipstore? No. Will this knowledge vanish if all us hobby types fell off the planet? No, unless we've started burning books again and I didn't get the memo. > And you're trying to tell me that because I'm not rich I did the wrong > thing? Get real! That was hardly what Marvin was saying. More people have discovered this hobby, which increases demand. Increased demand increase prices *in markets where cash is exchanged*. There's more than one way to make a market in this stuff, and there are still ample opportunities to haul off stuff for free. Personally, I'm thrilled that I can haul off the stuff that I care about for a tiny fraction of what it would have cost me just ten years ago. I'm stuck with the unpleasant feeling that some people are bitching because they've discovered that their private hobby isn't private, that other people have more cash than they do, and that as a consequence they can no longer pick stuff up for fire sale prices the way that they used to. That's tough, but it's nothing more than basic economics. As for ePay -- all it really does is make the market more efficient. If somebody wants to pay $700 for a TRS80 that's his choice -- but if a small army of people want to pay that much then there's not much to do but accept that as a reasonable price for same. Whining about it won't make it go away. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 27 17:04:24 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby Message-ID: <20000627220424.20205.qmail@hotmail.com> Well I can't be silent on this one... I'm broke as all hell, but I don't care.. I should probably be in college right now but I'd rather spend 3K to get a bunch of Interdata's and Perkin-Elmers... my other car is taken apart and I ought to spend money on fixing it but I don't.. Sure, maybe these aren't "good" choices, but whats important is that they ARE choices, I CHOSE to spend my money in such a way, and I live with it. But I work, I pay my bills, and hey, I could easily go to college if I'd get off my ass and work at it.. If you want to just to sit around and bitch about how poor you are, go for it, you won't get my sympathy. I know its entirely in my own power to determine how much money I have/make, so I don't complain.. If you're complaining, you probably don't understand that.. Besides, you could have loads of money if you spent the time you spend bitching working instead... Just my 2K worth... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 23:01:33 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Sellam On 27-Jun-00, you wrote: > Other ideas: > > * create an archive of software...you can find disks for all types of > computers at thrift stores and flea markets; generally a buck or less a > piece; a software archive is a very important element in this hobby, > since not many people seem to be archiving software on a large scale > > * create a classic computer book library...you can find them in hoards at > thrift stores, library book sales, and of course used book stores > (although used book store prices tend to be a little high usually); such > a library will be an indespensible resource for your local computer > collector community; don't forget computer manuals and software manuals > as well > > * create an ephemera archive: t-shirts, buttons, posters, etc; this would > basically be a material culture archive, which may bring you big bucks > later on when a researcher or someone writing a book wants to borrow > your collection to get some photos > > All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so > since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I > would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the > machines). > >> You can complain about how your feet are tired and >> your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. > > I like that :) > > Sellam I second that motion. I have a raft of books on my VIC-20 and c64 worth their weight in gold, but do you think I could get anything at a garage sale for them . . . hardly. Maybe ebay (laughter heard in the background). I think therein lies an idea worh pursuing. Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 16:09:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 0 12:14:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/260e42ff/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 16:28:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 0 12:41:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/2d248b66/attachment.ksh From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 18:12:59 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I am mildly fed up with this idea that 'amateur' means 'second grade' or > 'poor quality' or... It doesn't. Period. To say that it does is > essentially claiming that money==quality, something that I will never > agree with. Remember, Amateurs built the Ark! Professionals built the Titanic... From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 27 18:13:53 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:49:33PM -0400 References: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000627181353.G3512@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:49:33PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > Stupidity. > >There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > >the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > >no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? > buy the cheap one. ;) > Allison Anybody else see the MicroVAX II with VMS 4.x and a set of orange-wall manuals a guy (lance@swcp.com) is trying to sell for $1400? 1/10th of that would be more reasonable, I would think... Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 17:25:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 0 12:53:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1654 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/6154df68/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 17:44:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 27, 0 05:00:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/f408c9db/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 18:16:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <200006272150.OAA25322@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 27, 0 02:50:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1596 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/1a53922a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 17:57:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: <39591E13.91D73040@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 27, 0 02:35:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/e2886756/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 18:30:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: <395922B8.EC9504CF@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Jun 27, 0 02:55:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/9e67aaa4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 18:07:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 27, 0 05:38:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2042 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/2395edac/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 18:42:44 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAF@TEGNTSERVER> > > Try telling it to the unemployed hardware hacker who's figured out how to > > fix things that the manufacturer claimed could only be repaired at their > > factory with special equipment. > > If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker > can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said > hacker is unemployed save by choice. With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the balance of one's employment skills and personality. For example, it's far more important to my employer that I wear a crisp shirt and tie each day than that I know trend or technology (unless I hadn't said so before, I'm a programmer working as a system administrator; long story behind why). YMMV, etc. -doug q From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Jun 27 18:46:21 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: IMHO, it's arrogant to think that ANY old computers (other than a few very rare exceptions) are all that "valuable". If all the TRS-80s, ALTAIRS, SWTPs, all the documentation, and software, etc... were to disappear tomorrow, life as we know it would not change. The reason that I collect is that I enjoy tinkering with and restoring old machines. It has nothing to do with monitary gain, historical preservation, mentoring children about the "old ways", or saving the world from the loss of some irreplacable techno-saur. With the exception of "monitary gain" all the other reasons above are BS! Frankly I do have enough money to buy almost any computer I want and I do buy from E-Bay. I also buy from garage sales, flee markets, thrift stores, and other collectors. I have driven as much as 800 miles to pick up a system that I particularily wanted but, I have NEVER paid too much. I've always paid EXACTLY what I was willing to pay. The good thing about forums like Ebay is that they give you the opportunity to set the price that you are wiling to pay. If someone else is willing to pay more, so be it. Sure I've been disapppointed because I didn't get a system that I was bidding on but, so what. By the same token, I found a system that is the only surviving member of it's species for $50. Is it irreplacable? Sure it's irreplacable because there aren't any more. Would it really matter if I tossed it in the trash? Maybe to a few people on this list but other than that... not really. Before anyone goes on another rant about throwing a machine in the trash, let's take a poll: Assuming I was to offer it for free, who on this list (other than captain napalm who's only 10 miles away) would drive to South Florida to pick it up? Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/1ead84c2/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 18:56:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB2@TEGNTSERVER> > Not true. Nearly every museum will welcome volunteers with open arms, and > as long as the artifcats are not abused, they can be worked on and used. > Just about anyone on this list is welcome at RCS/RI to play with any of > our machines. Once we know people well enough, machines can be taken home > on a loan basis. In this we are not some odd organization - many museums > work exactly in this fashion. And the price is zero. Bill- While it really helps to have "live" organizational skills, I think a group of organizationally-challenged folk could do wonders if they had a roadmap to follow, and from the sounds of it, you & Merle & Co. have put together something special. Have you considered writing up either your experiences in putting the RCS/RI together, or even better, something closer to a step-by-step guide to finding the interested local parties and what to look for in terms of facilities (lots of space & separately derived 3-phase power systems are obvious; other things are less so). It may never happen here in the Louisville area (whatever critical mass of interest is required may or may not be present), but I'd like to try getting it started. We have a Museum of Science and Technology, but it's all mass-public stuff, IMAX Theatre, etc. -doug q From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 27 17:51:17 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: This is such a crock, if you want a cheap computer do the same thing you did before eBay, turn over a LOT of rocks. Just about everybody on this lists that is actively looking, ie making phone calls, driving places, etc., is still finding a LOT of computers. From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 19:10:46 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Preserve those old machines (was: Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked. > > Not just physical (theft) security, but the well being of the artifacts. > A door won't stop a heart attack. I know we've discussed wills and such in the past week or so, but this reminds me of something else: The shortwave and ham radio enthusiasts have what is called a "Committee to Preserve Radio Verifications". This group has stickers to put on QSL-card albums so that the collection is not discarded, but is (hopefully) sent to the Committee for preservation (at the Library of American Broadcasting at the University of Maryland) http://www181.pair.com/otsw/cprv2.html http://www.lib.umd.edu/UMCP/LAB/QSL.html Perhaps something similar could be done with our old machines and documentation? From foxnhare at jps.net Tue Jun 27 19:35:24 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo References: <200006272343.SAA32013@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <39594844.CF65F843@jps.net> Obviously you are looking in the wrong places if the price of equipment is too high for you nor are you looking at the "big picture"... Sure, I use eBay, but only for stuff that's cheap, if it is too expensive I look for things other people don't know about or haven't thought of collecting yet. (My BASIC games book collection is doing nicely, thank you.) If I can't get stuff on eBay cheap, then I scour the thrift stores, yard sales, newsgroups, shows like VCF, etc. If computer X is too expensive, I wait, heck, in 5 years I'll probably get one, I'm in no rush... (thats how I got most of my computers cheap, either buy it new in stores or wait a few years till it's lifespan brings it to Salvation Army...) Also if you have the webspace available - do justice to your favorite collection and help others, this is not only a status symbol for the collector but also let's visitors know that if they clean out their closet of classic stuff/info, there is a place they can send it to who will appreciate it and use it to assist others. (yes, I have received a few contributions and am very appreciative.) But of course if you fall into the "beanie babie" - collect for investment croud, that advice is a moot point. There are alot of aspects to a computer collection, not just the machines; there is the software, cables, controllers, peripherals, manuals, books, magazines, ads, stickers, buttons, etc... (in fact some of the software, manuals books and magazines are probably more rewarding to find than some of the computers...) > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:34:33 -0700 > From: Chuck McManis > Subject: Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer > Association? Was: Yo > > At 07:46 PM 6/27/00 +0100, Tony wrote: > >I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were > >ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in. > > Sounds a bit like the joke, "What that place? Nobody goes there > anymore, > its too crowded!" > > - --Chuck -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 27 19:46:09 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: References: Message-ID: <39594AD1.B09F88A3@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I could read this statement as an incredibly arrogant one. The implication > > That was not my intention. Fair enough :-) [snip] > This may vary in different countries, but certainly in the UK, > engineers/physicists/mathematical programmers/electronics designers, etc > are not, in general, well paid. There are exceptions, of course, but I > would think that people who were the most clueful at repairing old > computers would often have a lower salary than some other groups of > people. You're absolutly right; I forgot that my corner of the world isn't the *only* corner of the world, and I'll be the first to admit that in my little corner salaries are utterly whacked in comparison with skill sets -- but not universally so. In my case I've on collecting those machines that I worked with growing up (although the PR1MEs are an exception to that rule). As a consequence of the things that I learned working with those machines I have a comparatively successful career which allows me the luxury of throwing money at my hobby -- although that usual translates as paying somebody a chunk of change to haul something hundreds or thousands of miles as opposed to actually purchasing the stuff. [snip] > Well, certainly over here, being good at electronics/engineering/etc is > _not_ a way to get a well-paid job :-( As I said, head space on my part. Over here being *good* isn't even a requirement -- all you need is the ability to spell "engineer". > > If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker > > One of the first things I learnt when I started collecting was to never > believe the 'trained engineers only' warnings, and certainly not to > believe something couldn't be repaired just because the manual said it > couldn't ;-) That was kinda my point, but my argument was flawed from a societal standpoint. Someone with the mental horsepower not to be put off by such silly warnings would generally have all sorts of options open to them in the Valley. > > can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said > > hacker is unemployed save by choice. > > You are implying that there are jobs for people who can fix 1960's > calculators with homemade special tools? Or who can make parts for 8" > disk drives themselves? Yes, but not repairing 60's calculators or fabricating parts for 8" drives. My point is that someone who can perform the level of analysis and engineering required to do these things is a *real* engineer, as opposed to the people who are because they've got a piece of paper that says so. > Where??? At any given time there's usually between 17K and 22K unfilled engineering positions in the valley. Even factoring out all the support and grunt positions my guess is that there are more than just a few staff engineering (or above) positions that could benefit from the skills we're talking about here. [snip] > Nobody is saying that _everyone_ has to understand this. Just that some > people should be aware that it once existed, and could possibly be useful > again. No argument there. Far too many things get re-invented because people have no knowlege of prior art -- but it could be argued that we're describing the need for senior staff positions (which are *very* hard to find -- everyone wants you to be a VP instead) and better education. The latter in particular; maybe it's just me, but it seems like most newly minted master's I see these days are barely qualified to operate the coffee maker. [snip] > > Will this knowledge vanish if all us hobby types fell off the planet? No, > > unless we've started burning books again and I didn't get the memo. > > A lot of things are _not_ documented in books. There is a big difference > (IMHO) between the idealised CPUs that you find in text books and actual, > real world ones. And those differences are the interesting part IMHO. > Anyone can design a CPU, but can you define an 'efficient' one (where > efficiency can mean a lot of different things). I certainly agree with the latter -- the ability to do effective design isn't found in a book, but rather in experience. Nothing scares me more than walking into a CPU lab and finding a copy of one of Patterson's books on every engineer's desk as if it were a bible. Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 27 19:48:47 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?Was: Yo References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <39594B6F.17CF4310@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary > from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment > has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the > balance of one's employment skills and personality. That's a fair observation, and one that I conceded to Tony as well. I was thinking in terms of *my* situation, where too much attention to appearance and too little on productive work cause Chris to not bother to show up for work because I'll trip over several other interesting things to do as I'm carrying my stuff to the car. It was silly of me. Sorry about that. Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 27 20:04:27 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: <015901bfe071$153b5740$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: > > The problem with using DRIVPARM appears to be an incompatibility with the > > IBM BIOS, NOT an issue of which version of the OS! On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Sipke de Wal wrote: > I'm not shure but couldn't this be circumvented with "driver.sys" > It will take a few bytes of memory more than DRIVPARM but > it should work on any IBM-compatibe system including the ones from > big blue itself . Yes, DRIVER.SYS will work. But it loads an entirely unnecessary device driver into the scarce 640K real estate. It also puts the drive at a different letter. While most people will not run out of drive letters, some demented software (including certain MICROS~1 OS installs) refuses to accept any but A: and B: for the floppy letters! By running a BIOS other than IBM's, it is possible to use DRIVPARM to merely set the drive parameters to their correct values. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From passerm at umkc.edu Tue Jun 27 19:53:28 2000 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? Message-ID: <001f01bfe09b$572bbc60$0200a8c0@swbell.net> Does anyone out there have a boot disk, software and/or documentation for the Wang Professional Computer? I liberated one of these from a local thrift store for the grand sum of $2.97 (keyboard, monitor, and computer/drives all individually priced @ 99c). It appears to be in working order--startup diagnostics and the keyboard work fine. The monochrome display is one of the nicest ones I've seen. An interesting note is that the startup ROM contains an option to boot the machine from the serial port! Thanks for anything anyone might be able to spare-- I am, of course, willing to pay shipping plus a reasonable amount for the time involved, particularly if someone copies me a boot disk. Mike Passer passerm@umkc.edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 27 20:12:49 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: <39591445.89170BC8@rain.org> Message-ID: I remember when NOBODY wanted Edsels. I remember when NOBODY wanted VWs from the 50's, PARTICULARLY those ones with the split rear window, semaphore turn signals, hand crank, etc. There are still some analogous niches. Nobody seems to be collecting monitors. printers? Too bulky? Nobody seems to be collecting modems. Who wants some PCJrs? Morrow MD2? Amiga 1000? [local pickup only. Sorry, for the price, I'm not willing to ship.] -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Jun 27 20:15:11 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? References: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166> <20000627181353.G3512@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3959519F.7D36D4F@arrl.net> Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody else see the MicroVAX II with VMS 4.x and a set of > orange-wall manuals a guy (lance@swcp.com) is trying to > sell for $1400? > > 1/10th of that would be more reasonable, I would think... Even that is too high, there are many available for the taking, though not necessarily with all the extras you described. You just need to keep yours eyes open. Example ... I've got a MVII in a BA-123 (diskless) free to anyone in the Houston area. I just need to dig it out from the pile of shipping cartons piled on / around it. First request gets it. Someone commented on being suspicious of an eBay seller for changing his ID. Not always a cause for concern. I'll be changing mine after completion of some pending buys, simply because ...... I'm tired of my old *handle*......... Nick From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 27 20:16:58 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The original TRS-80 Level 1, 4K, with monitor and cassette was $599. The level 2 WAS $700, wasn't it? I sold off the ones that I had for less than that, but they had numerous after-market mods. Hmmm. If you can successfully sell MOdel 1s for $700, that could finance a serious collection From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 27 22:05:34 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > The reason that I collect is that I enjoy tinkering with and restoring old > machines. It has nothing to do with monitary gain, historical preservation, > mentoring children about the "old ways", or saving the world from the loss > of some irreplacable techno-saur. With the exception of "monitary gain" all > the other reasons above are BS! Same here. Granted, I'd like to see this equipment preserved in the long term, but, tinkering and restoring the systems, and making modifications as needed to make them more useful, are why I "collect" computers. If, in order to make a computer work again, if I have to modify something, use different parts, etc. I will, as my goal is a working system, not a museum piece. > Frankly I do have enough money to buy almost any computer I want and I do > buy from E-Bay. I also buy from garage sales, flee markets, thrift stores, Same here. Getting a cheap or free toy to play with is all part of the fun, even though more expensive ones are affordable. If all systems became expensive, I'd stop collecting, simply because it would no longer be fun, and I wouldn't want to patronize price-gougers. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 27 22:12:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > But you're forgetting one important fact. We (or at least I) collect and > restore classic computers because we _enjoy_ them. I have no interest > whatsoever in collecting t-shirts, posters, etc. You can't clip a logic > analyser onto a poster. I agree; I'm not interetsted in marketing rubbish pertaining to computers; such things do not contribute to my enjoyment of classic computers. > As I've said many times before, I am interested in computers _because > they're electronic circuits_. They're something to attack with logic > analysers and 'scopes. Not something to sit of the shelf. Not something > to 'preserve'. Something to investigate. Well said! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 27 23:05:55 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000628000555.00961c30@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: [snip] >You can't clip a logic analyser onto a poster. Sure you can! However, I can pretty much guarantee you'll end up with a "logic 0" every time... ;-) >And while I collect books (boy, do I collect books), I have little >interest in yet another 'learn Commodore 64 BASIC' (or similar) book. >Technical manuals, sure -- I buy just about any that I come across. >Databooks, ditto. But not 3rd party user manuals. On that we certainly agree. >And when you've seen the insides of one 286 PC/AT clone you've pretty >much seen them all. Hear, Hear! I *refuse* to collect IBM PC's of any type (well, *damn near* any type -- I might take in a Tandy 2000, but that would be about it.) Despite Micros~1's protestations, Win9x/ME==DOS==boring. In my town, there's prolly 20 or fewer folks that could even figure out how to boot VMS on my DEC, let alone log in... (installation did require some help from you folks - and I thank you again for that). Most folks that are PeeCee based are like "Howcomewhyfor nuthin' happens when I press F1?" It doesn't occur to most folks nowadays to try something new/different (read: the HELP command). Now to get DECWindows up... so I can see the documentation on how to get DECWindows up... I guess I'm feeling recursive tonite. ;-) Honestly, I have no desire for an altair/imsai/apple 1, so as long as those are "fashionable" and little else, I won't shed a tear over it. If, however, the state of affordable collecting is reduced to '286's, I'll just keep my 30 or so machines to myself and become a "compu-hermit." I'll want no part of it anymore. Re: the "amateur vs. professional" debate: To most folks nowadays, the term "professional" means "you have a degree from a well-heeled university" to prove you actually know what you're doing (which in my eyes isn't proof at all...). No Ph.D. == amateur. There is *no* degree in Classic Computing History, so by this definition we're *all* amateurs... Just my $0.00000002 (and that's what it's worth...) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 23:09:09 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I must disagree with both of you... Museums provide one function -- that > of conserving machines and ensuring that they will still be around in the > future. No, museums do more. They preserve the hardware (and software and docs and all of the related physical stuff), as we all know, but they also preserve the culture. In fact, in many cases, museums are more interested in the culture behind an artifact than the artifact itself. For example, tribal masks are interesting artifacts, made of exotic woods, and they can tell all sorts of things about the artists and tools at the time it was made - but the real value is the knowledge of how the masks were used, who used them, why and when they were used, and so forth. In fact archaeology is almost _all_ culture study - artifacts are just clues. > Hobbyists provide a different function (IMHO) -- they carry on > using the machines, ensuring that the operational knowledge is preserved > a little longer. They may also pull them apart, modify them and restore > them, and in so doing recreate some of the design information for the > machine. This is something the museums are starting to do, now that they are starting to take the things seriously. For example, on one of the submarine museums, a project is afoot to restore the stable element back to operation. The main point of the project is not to show a working Arma gyro system, but to preserve the methods (some would say magic) involved with balancing the beasts from the few old men that can still do it. The artifact will likely last for thousands of years if treated well, but those old codgers are will be lucky to last another twenty. > All museums that I have ever been in contact with would certainly -- and > with good reason -- refuse to let me do the sort of things to their > artefacts that I routinely do to my own machines. Like adding chips, > sticking wire-wrapped (and reversable) modifications on the backs of > boards. Like taking them _totally_ to bits and desoldering chips, etc. Am > I ruining classic computers? Perhaps. But if I didn't do things like that > then I'd not be able to share repair methods, etc, with other collectors > and enthusiasts -- and yes, museums. Well, yes, the museums would kick you out in a jiffy. The whole idea of an artifact is to "freeze" it at some point in time, and keep it there. It is far from a perfect world, and all sorts of things want to change the artifact, destroying the "historical fabric" (official term). Museums want to keep this fabric as intact as possible, but also may want to restore the artifacts. It is a fine line - the well being of the artifact vs. the value to the public. That is one of the reasons museum tend to be very slow and careful. Even little changes rip the fabric, and it _can_not_ be repaired. Museums and scholars learned the hard way how to treat artifacts. Much has been lost because of little (or sometimes big, in the case with Egyptology) changes have built up into big changes, and documentation can only go so far. Even mods that are reversable really are not. Changes can be tiny, but they add up. Now I don't think for even a second that I am going to change everyone into "restoration cops", but it is something people should consider. Some of us have very unique machines, some with a great deal of history behind them, but it could all be lost forever. > Both functions are highly valuable. I refuse to say which is more > valuable (that depends on who you are and what you're interested in). But > there's certainly a place for both groups in the world. As I said, there is simply no way everyone will start acting like a curator. In fact, I may very well get flamed for even suggesting such a thing. Private collections will always exist, and a great deal of knowledge will be kept private. The key is to get the museums and private collectors to exist peacefully and exchange the knowledge (actually easier than it sounds - this list being a good example). > My experience is that museums are great if you want to see what the > museum thinks that the average member of the public would (a) want to see > and (b) would understand. But if you want to go way beyond that then > you're not going to get very far. Maybe the UK is different (I though the British were the kings of museums?), but most US museums are quite happy to let the public research the holdings. There may be a little bit of processing (paperwork and so forth) to go thru, to make sure you are not a Bozo ready to walk away with some artifacts, but it can be done. Credentials help a great deal - thus the idea of an "official" retrocomputing organization has a great deal of merit. > Hmmm... Some of us do ensure that anything we discover about our machines > is at least 'backed up' to one other collector, if not made public on a > list like that one. And the things we discover are _not_ the sort of > thing you're going to find out just by looking at a machine. Who says that museums are just for looking anyway? The point of collecting the artifacts is so they can be studied in detail. > While most of us have machines that we don't mention publically, you can > bet that if you start asking questions about them you'll get answers > which at least imply they've _seen_ the machine in quite close detail. That is great, and I thank everyone that does participate, but no doubt there are many that don't. Just recently I was thru a round of semi-academic talk on another list about the RDF (radio direction finding) set Amelia Earhart used, and why she managed to get lost. Well, a friend and I had some documentation about the Bendix system used, so we shared it. Another guy I know actually _has_ one of these radios (a very rare variant - the only one I know of), but he said nothing - added nothing to the discussion. For our purposes, the radio in his collection might as well have been a potted plant. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 27 23:10:39 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Temporary Departure Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000627211039.0099e800@pop.sttl.uswest.net> I'll be off-list for a while due to an upcoming vacation. Back soon! 73 de WD6EOS -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 23:17:08 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > Have you considered writing up either your experiences in > putting the RCS/RI together, or even better, something > closer to a step-by-step guide to finding the interested > local parties and what to look for in terms of facilities > (lots of space & separately derived 3-phase power systems > are obvious; other things are less so). Yes, that is an excellent idea. There are a great deal of details that need to be dealt with that are not part of private collecting. I will bring it up at the next open house. It could make a good joint RCS/RICM project. I should point out that the "main man" at RCS/RI is actually Mike Umbricht, not myself. He is really resposible for most of what has transpired. That's why he is the president. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 27 23:17:43 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:12:49PM -0700 References: <39591445.89170BC8@rain.org> Message-ID: <20000627231743.T3512@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:12:49PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > There are still some analogous niches. Nobody seems to be collecting > monitors. printers? Too bulky? Nobody seems to be collecting modems. > Who wants some PCJrs? > Morrow MD2? > Amiga 1000? > [local pickup only. Sorry, for the price, I'm not willing to ship.] I've got an A1000 with keyboard (no mouse, sorry) in Austin, Texas free for the pickup, along with three 19" rackmount drive trays (complete with slide rails) from a 4/690MP; along with the trays go six 2.1gig Seagate 5.25" FH differential SCSI HDs (and all cables) and six 1.2gig 5.25" FH IPI drives. I've also got six 1200 watt power supplies for a 4/6[7,9]0MP. If anybody in the area wants any of this, let me know. I need to clean out the garage for the arrival of more DEC stuff in a couple of weeks. Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 27 23:53:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? In-Reply-To: <001f01bfe09b$572bbc60$0200a8c0@swbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Michael Passer wrote: > Does anyone out there have a boot disk, software > and/or documentation for the Wang Professional > Computer? Yep, but you probably want more than just one disk. The system comes as a three disk set, there is one for IBM emulation if you have that card, a printer installation disk, etc. Write me off list, and we'll see what can be done. - don > I liberated one of these from a local thrift store > for the grand sum of $2.97 (keyboard, monitor, > and computer/drives all individually priced @ 99c). > It appears to be in working order--startup > diagnostics and the keyboard work fine. The > monochrome display is one of the nicest ones > I've seen. > > An interesting note is that the startup ROM contains > an option to boot the machine from the serial port! > > Thanks for anything anyone might be able to spare-- > I am, of course, willing to pay shipping plus a > reasonable amount for the time involved, particularly > if someone copies me a boot disk. > > Mike Passer > passerm@umkc.edu > > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:40:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said > > hacker is unemployed save by choice. > > You are implying that there are jobs for people who can fix 1960's > calculators with homemade special tools? Or who can make parts for 8" > disk drives themselves? Where??? Tony, I've got to get this off my chest. I've seen you time and time again whine about not being able to get a job with your skills. In the past I've talked to you privately about how easy it would be for someone with your incredible skill and knowledge to get a very well-paying job just about any damn place he chooses, but you come up with all sorts of reasons why you can't. The only conclusion I can come to is that you don't want a job. The blind, deaf or crippled would kill for your skills. What's your excuse? If you're looking for sympathy from anyone here, you're not going to get it. Write a resume, make some copies, send it out and stop complaining. The recognition you want and deserve is out in the world, not here on this list while you sit cramped up behind a computer screen. Stop being selfish and contribute your talents to society (other than what you contribute so graciously to this list). Sorry to air this publicly, but I think what you need is a good kick in the ass. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:42:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > But you're forgetting one important fact. We (or at least I) collect and > restore classic computers because we _enjoy_ them. I have no interest > whatsoever in collecting t-shirts, posters, etc. You can't clip a logic > analyser onto a poster. Sure, but someone else might. The idea is to propose alternative focii of collecting that are equally important to the greater good in this hobby we all share. > Which is why none of the above suggestions has any interest at all _for me_. Fine, leave all the extraneous books, posters, pins and t-shirts to someone else ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:46:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary > from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment > has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the > balance of one's employment skills and personality. For example, > it's far more important to my employer that I wear a crisp shirt > and tie each day than that I know trend or technology > (unless I hadn't said so before, I'm a programmer working as a > system administrator; long story behind why). YMMV, etc. Well, someone was talking about choices earlier, and that's what we're dealing with here. You can choose to be socially retarded and not be able to maintain a job, or you can choose to start your own business and not have to worry about answering to a boss, or you can choose to stay at home and complain on an internet mailing list about how you can't afford your own hobby. Anyway, this is off-topic. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:49:25 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > The reason that I collect is that I enjoy tinkering with and restoring old > machines. It has nothing to do with monitary gain, historical preservation, > mentoring children about the "old ways", or saving the world from the loss > of some irreplacable techno-saur. With the exception of "monitary gain" all > the other reasons above are BS! Says you. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:55:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai > Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes > and parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same > with Well, the prices staying low must be a new thing. There's a reason they put "Altair IMSAI" on their ads, that being that lots of people would fall for it for lack of an understanding of recent computer history (i.e. suckers). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From passerm at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 05:59:00 2000 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? References: Message-ID: <008601bfe0ef$dd8bde80$0200a8c0@swbell.net> Great! The machine does have a mono IBM emulation card, along with a 128K board and a graphics board (PM002-B). It's a floppy based system Please let me know what I can give you for a set of disks and where to send it. Thank you for answering my call for help! --Mike From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Jun 28 06:37:43 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Heck, I couldn't even afford to get to VCF-Europe, let alone the States. > > But if there's ever a VCF-UK, I'll be there. Somehow. I'll even volunteer > > to bring some machines and give a talk. Count me in, too. I'm sure I could put together a few machines for a display, and talk on some appropriate topic. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 07:32:06 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735122@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I apologize--that reply was meant to go off list. I will remember not to reply to messages before having had coffee in the future! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 05:57:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <011101bfe0f9$43948a70$7264c0d0@ajp166> several messages: >> If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker >> can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said >> hacker is unemployed save by choice. > >With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary >from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment >has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the >balance of one's employment skills and personality. For example, I'd agree, I looked for two years in the other H-1B capital eastern MA, and no one was interested in me. I saw who they were hiring, and they were young, male and going cheap. Emplyment right now is a game, everyone is looking for a few and the wnat list if bizzare. The best example, a local comms firm wanted techs (not engineers) that had a minimum of BS in Math and 2 years DSP experience! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 05:48:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground Message-ID: <011001bfe0f9$42d58030$7264c0d0@ajp166> From: Mike Ford >This is such a crock, if you want a cheap computer do the same thing you >did before eBay, turn over a LOT of rocks. Just about everybody on this >lists that is actively looking, ie making phone calls, driving places, >etc., is still finding a LOT of computers. Amen! In the last year for free and not actively sought... Coleco Adam from the trash Zenith Xt laptop "here you want it, or the trash" Hyndai 286LT laptop in the trash, works! 486dx/66 system even 4x cdrom complete, if I didn't take it guess what... the trash. and other odds and ends. Granted the PC stuff is mostly for giving away as I don't need it all. There is stuff to be found the trick is to catch it before it's landfill in many cases. Maybe it's me but far to much good hardware is going landfill. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 06:05:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <011201bfe0f9$443b2ab0$7264c0d0@ajp166> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >The original TRS-80 Level 1, 4K, with monitor and cassette was $599. The >level 2 WAS $700, wasn't it? Initially then it was dropped in price. I thik the 4k/L1 went down to $399 and the 16k/LII was $599 later on. Either way there were some 300-400 thousand of them sold! In the first year of sales the total sold was 250,000! Rare, hardly. What would be rare is a completely stock system with a real working early model expansion interface!!! Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 28 08:58:03 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> This might be a topic better posted in the alt.folklore.computers USENET group, but let me try here first. This is from memory, and it's not as reliable as I'd like it to be. IIRC, OS/2 was not Microsoft's first attempt to create a multitasking operating system. They were working on, and I believe mostly finished, a DOS 4.0 that was multitasking. This was not the PC-DOS 4.0 for IBM, nor was it the MS-DOS 4.0 that we finally saw here in the states. This multitasking DOS 4.0 (from Microsoft, not a third party) was supplied with a computer that was old only in either the UK or more widely in Europe. It seems that the first letter of the computer manufacturer was an 'A', so the machine could have been an Apricot, an Amstrad, an Acorn, or lord knows. I read about this machine either in Byte during the late 80s or in a BIX conference (I MISS BIX!). I've searched the web for references to this multitasking MS-DOS 4, and have found nothing. Does anyone else remember this? Was the Byte article reviewing a sample of a product that never shipped? Did anyone get their hands on one? Does anyone have it? -doug q From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Jun 28 09:12:33 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:58:03 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > This multitasking DOS 4.0 (from Microsoft, not a third party) > was supplied with a computer that was old only in either the > UK or more widely in Europe. It seems that the first letter > of the computer manufacturer was an 'A', so the machine could > have been an Apricot, an Amstrad, an Acorn, or lord knows. I remember this! Only vaguely, though. It was indeed a multi-tasking version of MS-DOS, supplied by Microsoft to a UK computer company. I doubt that Amstrad or Acorn would have done something like this, so Apricot is the most likely 'A'. However, I get a (vague) notion that it may have been an ICL product. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 09:24:05 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? References: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773511C@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: <20000628141905.991.qmail@hotmail.com> The most aggregious overcharge I'd seen on ebay was someone selling a Mac SE (I think, could have been a 512k or Plus) for $300 because it had the signatures on the back of the inside of the case. True, the later SE's didn't, but I picked up three that do for $1 each from a thrift store, and there are LOTS more where those came from. The worst part was three people actually bid on it. Hey, anybody wanna buy a mac? ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Passer, Michael" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: RE: $700 TRS-80??? > The highest unsuccessful bid was also for $700 by > someone with a feedback rating of 232. He didn't > succeed because the winner had placed his $700 bid > the day before. > > There were four bids for >$600, and one for $250. > > (from http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=359971659) > > I do think it was the well-written description and > all the pictures that pushed the price up into the > stratosphere. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dwight Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 12:40 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: $700 TRS-80??? > > > "Passer, Michael" wrote: > > I saw that one too--it had to be the description! > > > > > Hi > Did anyone ask the bidders why they went so high? > There may be a valid reason. Looking at the other bidders > history, the next higher bidder was a regular buyer. > The winning bid was by someone that has made no other > purchases. He could have been a fake and wanted to see > how high things would go. I would be quite interested > to see how the sale goes through. The buyer has also > resently changed his handle. Makes one wonder? > Dwight > From at258 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 09:36:27 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? In-Reply-To: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735122@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: If Don can't get the Wang PC disks for you, I can look around and try to find something. I believe iut runs dos 2.01. On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Passer, Michael wrote: > I apologize--that reply was meant to go off list. I > will remember not to reply to messages before having > had coffee in the future! > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jun 28 09:49:22 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: MicroPDP11/73 chassis in Kansas City Message-ID: I still have a floor mount style MicroPDP11/73 chassis in Kansas City. I used the machine several time but mainly it sat in the garage next to the microvax2000 and PDP 11/23+. When I ran out of space because of 2 new Microvax II's and extra disk drives I decided to sell it to somebody on this list. I sold the boards and the purchaser didn't want the chassis because of the weight and size. You all can fight over it, $10 plus you pay shipping I'll provide packing and transport to the FedEx pickup for free. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 10:06:52 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Message-ID: <20000628150652.8746.qmail@hotmail.com> Just wondering, how rare is a model 12? I don't care about monetary value, this is a curiosity thing. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed Jun 28 11:07:15 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" Message-ID: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Howdy all, Another free for all question: How much time do you devote searching for old machines? How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? I've found lately that when I'm done with the rounds (that is when I can do the rounds) I usually don't have time to do the play and the machine often end up on a shelf (or floor or table or....) until I finaly free myself up. Also as the collection grows I have less time to spend with each machine and some don't get out anymore (C64, C128, ADAM etc...). It seems that the longer the setup time the less likely the machine is going to be used. I used to try to get one representative of each group easilly accessible but it is now impossible. What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? Francois From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed Jun 28 11:29:26 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:06 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? Message-ID: <004d01bfe11e$1f854780$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> How can you find your computer without having had coffee? Francois >I apologize--that reply was meant to go off list. I >will remember not to reply to messages before having >had coffee in the future! > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Jun 28 11:31:19 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <000401bfe11e$4ab3d070$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Francois said: > Another free for all question: > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? Insight! Sucat, His eyes Opened!!! This seems like a pretty insightful question. You make me feel like a guy with thirty kids who spends all his time looking for loose women. The drift is that it's way too much time of the former and not enough of the latter. Thanks for pointing this out. John A. From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 11:35:29 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735127@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I find that I don't spend enough time playing with the machines, but, then, I don't spend enough time searching, either :>. Seriously, I am in a similar situation, with every shelf available to me covered with computers and peripherals. I think from time to time about "thinning the herd" and choosing machines to specialize in--right about then, I come across something I know nothing about and get it! And thinning would require me to choose machines with which to part, which isn't easy. I _should_ start offering some items to the list soon! I do feel guilty for not firing up a variety of machines more often! --Mike From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 10:41:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" Message-ID: <000201bfe11b$dba12180$7764c0d0@ajp166> >What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? >Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? > >Francois Good point! I've generally stopped adding as I've reached space saturation and run out of possible time to operate the machines I dearly wanted. Yes, My old NS* is not getting enough time these days. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 12:18:14 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <003501bfe124$d8c62600$0400c0a8@winbook> GIVE THIS GUY A BREAK! He's recycling, doncha know? I see lots of computer hardware in the dumpster, and that's not being recycled. Why is a working computer nobody wants enough to pay for it better than a box of parts they will pay for? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:15 PM Subject: The cost of collecting debate > Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the collecting cost issue > again. This was one of Jeff's salvos: > > >What I *do* > >care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue > >computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something > >else to do, because the prices are out of sight. > > This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue > computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that > are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based > machines). > > These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are > also available for free in quite a few places. > > You can approach this particular class of machine as the point where > computers ceased being glorified "toys" and actually started being able to > do real work. If the IBM PC made it "acceptable" for mainstream business to > give its employees one computer each, it was the PC/AT that cemented this > relationship and made it possible to do work. > > This was the "start" of the "Millions of standards" bifurcation in the > computer industry, as up to this point computers were "99%" PC compatible > because everything was the same on them. PC/AT introduced us to an I/O slot > that could support a larger memory map and that lead to a host of new video > controllers (several examples could be collected from the "famous" ones > like the Orchid series and Hercules series, to the "infamous" ones.) Analog > monitors came about to support these cards and the very first "multisync" > monitor was introduced. [it impressed the heck out of me, even if it did > make big clicking noises as it tryed to swap in different components.] > > There is research to be done, knowledge to recover, and artifacts to > collect. All at very low prices. > > Then there is the understanding of Computation, as Richard Feynman and > others understood it, things like the Babbage difference engine and the > Eniac. Often you can re-create this sort of thing from scratch as a hobby > for less than it would cost to acquire an original artifact. People still > by Digi-Comp 1's at Garage Sales for $1 even when they go for >$300 on Ebay > and elsewhere. You can make your own Digi-Comp 1 out of plastic from plans > on the Net for about $50. > > Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers > > Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on > antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in > this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well > recognized while others remain anonymous. If you want one of those machines > then you are now going to have to compete with this group of people to > acquire one. New ones aren't being made (except for IMSAI's :-) so the > supply is fixed/dwindling. You can compete with your feet by tracking nice > pieces down (this is essentially what Antique Dealers have done forever) > or with your wallet. You can complain about how your feet are tired and > your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. > > --Chuck > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 12:22:25 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAD@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <004d01bfe125$6e41aa60$0400c0a8@winbook> It's true the DEC racks don't grow on trees, but their scrap value doesn't pay for shipping and storage. Ask anybody who's got them. Likewise, the PSU's cost a lot to move and store, but seldom bring benefit proportional to the effort. What's wrong with letting this guy have what he wants? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 3:16 PM Subject: RE: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts > > You do realize that PDP-11's are more than just cool toys don't you? > There > > are people/companies whose livelyhood depends on these systems and their > > continueing to run. > > Nah, running a CAT scanner is just child's play. > > And AFAIC, I don't really want to play with a PDP-11; I just > didn't want to see an otherwise complete system that was two > components away from total restoration ripped to shreds! > > > The only thing I can see that the buyer did wrong was leaving the > > powersupply! At least from what you've said I assume he left > > it. If he went so far as to get the backplane he really should have > > taken that. > > He's taking about a third, and leaving two thirds. > > The rack is staying behind too. But I guess DEC racks > grow on trees. > > -dq > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 12:32:11 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby References: <20000627220424.20205.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Will, my boy, It's absolutely for certain you'll regret that you're not in college for the rest of your life. That's true even if you eventually do go back and get a degree. The experience will be different and you've no way to reclaim it. Since you've little or no chance of getting most of these old machines you gather up and running, it's unlikely you'll learn much from them. Unless it's your goal eventually to become a scrap dealer, I'd say you're making what's probably the biggest and most far-reaching mistake you could possibly make. Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. Of course, I've just learned that my elder son isn't planning to return to Harvard next fall, (at least he learned enough while there to let my last check to him clear) and I don't know how well my younger son is doing at GA Tech. I know my sons, both of them, to be sometime goof-offs. Perhaps that how people will view your resume as well. If I were in your place, I'd be doing whatever it takes to get on track to make that graduation from college happen at the "usual" time, no matter what it takes. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 4:04 PM Subject: Price of our hobby > Well I can't be silent on this one... I'm broke as all hell, but I don't > care.. I should probably be in college right now but I'd rather spend 3K to > get a bunch of Interdata's and Perkin-Elmers... my other car is taken apart > and I ought to spend money on fixing it but I don't.. Sure, maybe these > aren't "good" choices, but whats important is that they ARE choices, I CHOSE > to spend my money in such a way, and I live with it. But I work, I pay my > bills, and hey, I could easily go to college if I'd get off my ass and work > at it.. If you want to just to sit around and bitch about how poor you are, > go for it, you won't get my sympathy. I know its entirely in my own power to > determine how much money I have/make, so I don't complain.. If you're > complaining, you probably don't understand that.. Besides, you could have > loads of money if you spent the time you spend bitching working instead... > Just my 2K worth... > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 28 12:51:26 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEBB@TEGNTSERVER> > It's true the DEC racks don't grow on trees, but their scrap value doesn't > pay for shipping and storage. Ask anybody who's got them. Likewise, the > PSU's cost a lot to move and store, but seldom bring benefit proportional to > the effort. > > What's wrong with letting this guy have what he wants? See, I'm not a DEC guy, so I really don't know how rare a MicroPDP-11/73 is (and how different they are or aren't from a regular PDP-11). On the assumption that they don't make them anymore and thus are kinda rare, I thought it worthwhile to preserve/restore a nearly complete and almost operational system. And let me tell you how clean this thing was. Since the guy didn't want anything heavy, I picked up the TS05 tape drive out of the rack last night. The plexiglass tape door had not a scratch on it, nor did the rest of the unit. And no discoloration anywhere either. It had been used at the University of Louisville Medical School, and they took awesome care of it. I just thought it an ideal machine to save. After I looked at it even more carefully at home, I almost couldn't bring myself to remove the plexiglass door to replace the broken one on my Cipher F880. My Cipher isn't in nearly as good a shape. The two units aren't identical; while the TS05 is a Cipher F880, it doesn't support the 3200bpi density mine does. But I'll bet dollars to donuts that the mechanical assemblies are the same, so now I've got an excellent source of spares to keep my drive working. Now if i can just find a Prime 2301 Tape Controller... -doug q From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Jun 28 13:00:53 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Richard, Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the richest man in the world? -Mike Cheponis On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Will, my boy, It's absolutely for certain you'll regret that you're not in > college for the rest of your life. That's true even if you eventually do go > back and get a degree. The experience will be different and you've no way > to reclaim it. Since you've little or no chance of getting most of these > old machines you gather up and running, it's unlikely you'll learn much from > them. Unless it's your goal eventually to become a scrap dealer, I'd say > you're making what's probably the biggest and most far-reaching mistake you > could possibly make. > > Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you > graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll > wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have > no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or > in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. > > Of course, I've just learned that my elder son isn't planning to return to > Harvard next fall, (at least he learned enough while there to let my last > check to him clear) and I don't know how well my younger son is doing at GA > Tech. I know my sons, both of them, to be sometime goof-offs. > Perhaps that how people will view your resume as well. If I were in your > place, I'd be doing whatever it takes to get on track to make that > graduation from college happen at the "usual" time, no matter what it takes. > > Dick From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 12:15:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you > graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll > wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have > no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or > in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. That's such an old-school frame of mind, Dick. The world doesn't work like that anymore. Old style thinking like that went out of fashion with the 80s. This is the year 2000. Dinosaurs are extinct. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 13:41:25 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: OT: College Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773512B@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I'll be first in line to say college is a good thing, and worth the time, money, and effort expended to obtain a degree. Doing so right after high school is the path of least resistance--it _is_ harder when you're older (from experience). That said, any employer who ignores you because the time between your high school and college graduations is not the "standard interval" without so much as asking about it is doing him or herself (and his or her company) a disservice. There are pursuits other than rehab or prison that could have filled that time--such as having served in the Peace Corps, the military, or a real-world job--that might just have made a person who waited to go to college appreciate the opportunity laid before them. A person who did such a thing may well be a better candidate for it. While there is no shortage of the kind of people who will not take a second look at those whose resumes don't fit the mold, there are also plenty of others less closed minded who would likely be more satisfying to work for. --Mike From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 28 13:59:50 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006281859.LAA01324@civic.hal.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: > Richard, > > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > richest man in the world? > > -Mike Cheponis Hi You do have to be smart enough to learn how to steal without breaking serious laws. You have to learn how to turn on friends. You need to be really lucky. But, most of all, you have to be driven. For Will While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal references, I'd have a hard time getting past HR. One still needs the knowledge that you'd get from college. I have taken many extension courses as well as read and understood many upper college level books. I've never stopped learning, even though I left college in the middle. Although, I have a better excuse than most, I was, also, tired of the entire school thing. Find a way to stay in school. One other piece of advice. Don't listen to counselors. They wouldn't be doing the job there doing if they really knew what they were doing. Decide what you want from college and go for it. Dwight From red at bears.org Wed Jun 28 14:07:27 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Mike Cheponis wrote: > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > richest man in the world? I have to add my two cents to this. Yes, some companies will demand degrees and expect to see a candidate with 100% conventional background. In the tech sector, at least, these companies don't seem to be in the norm and where they do exist, are the LEAST interesting companies to work for. After I graduated from high school, I went straight into uni. I managed to complete my high school obligations with minimal effort and still graduate at the top 2% of my class---needless to say, this didn't translate into a highly successful career at the University of Washington. I attended UW for two years and dropped out without achieving Junior status. Today I am 23 years old and have hit the top of my profession (UNIX systems administration). In terms of technical knowledge, I outrank nearly all of my co-workers, many of whom are 15 years or more my senior. I have worked in numerous diverse environments, including several 'highly respected' companies such as Amazon.com, the Boeing Corporation, and Geoworks. Not once has my lack of a degree affected my ability to find a job. In fact, I am very up-front about my short-lived and extremely unglamourous engagement at uni. Yes, I am tooting my own horn here (quite loudly) but if I don't toot it, I'm afraid the fact that a successful career can be built on things other than advanced degrees may slip by unnoticed. Will I go back to school? Yes. Will it be to get a technical degree? Probably not. Divinity or theology are looking like likely candidates. ok r. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 28 14:54:58 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in the public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public domain), but also of user-group collections of software for these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc. I've asked around at a couple of prominent computer museums, but they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they archive and index the original software, like they've never considered it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject at all. I've heard of the Hercules emulator project, but I don't know what software they have archived so far, or what efforts they are currently making. If someone could point me towards an index of their software archives I'd appreciate it. I consider myself to be an expert at archiving DEC-related software, and often am involved in all sorts of projects in that sphere that benefit everyone from hobbyists to those with legal cases, but I know little to nothing about what archives of old IBM stuff are available. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 28 14:49:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: <000201bfe11b$dba12180$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: Lets say I have before me three things; a nifty vintage machine with some software that looks interesting, a large dumpster with a couple enticing cables hanging out, and a auction with all the people grousing the lack of late model Wintel boxes due to all the pallets of vintage computers. What do I do? I can hear the trash truck coming in the distance, the guy with the vintage machine and software is leaving as soon as he finishes a cheeseburger, and the auction starts in 5 minutes and I haven't registered yet. The answer is, I don't know what I would do, it would depend on what was really going on. The dumpster calls to me at a basic level the others can't reach, but I am a thinking being able to intellectually decide my path. Most likely I wander over and peek in the dumpster while I think about the other two choices, and how unfair the world is. ;) Back in the Wednesday night reality of my garage with no cars, most likely I split my time between testing/fixing some hardware and sorting out boxes of new stuff. I don't have much interest in running any software on less than the best platform I have to run it on. From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Wed Jun 28 15:10:40 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F78EAF@ALFEXC5> Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there anything on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. When I was in high school, we had one, but it didn't work. It didn't have any documentation either. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jun 28 15:17:35 2000 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000628161602.0099b100@popmail.voicenet.com> At 09:58 AM 6/28/00 -0400, you wrote: >OS/2 was not Microsoft's first attempt to create a >multitasking operating system. They were working on, and >I believe mostly finished, a DOS 4.0 that was multitasking. There was indeed a multi-tasking version of DOS 4.0 that was developed jointly by IBM and Microsoft. The lead engineers were however from IBM in Hursley. Never was released as far as I know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 28 15:15:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Ivory towers ubber alles In-Reply-To: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <20000627220424.20205.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Will, my boy, It's absolutely for certain you'll regret that you're not in >college for the rest of your life. That's true even if you eventually do go >back and get a degree. The experience will be different and you've no way >to reclaim it. Since you've little or no chance of getting most of these >old machines you gather up and running, it's unlikely you'll learn much from >them. Unless it's your goal eventually to become a scrap dealer, I'd say >you're making what's probably the biggest and most far-reaching mistake you >could possibly make. Sometimes college doesn't work out, and knowing when it ISN"T time for you to be there is good. I quit school after 5 years (note I didn't say five focused single track years), got married and worked for 3 years, then went back part time and ground out the quickest degree I could (BSCS instead of physics) in a little over a year. Some of us, and my guess is that this list is a collecting point, don't fit well as corporate pegs. If I ever get the desire to have all my square edges ground off and start kissing some moron's butt for a paycheck I will be very surprised. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jun 28 15:53:00 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: from Mike Cheponis at "Jun 28, 2000 11:00:53 am" Message-ID: <200006282053.NAA29538@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > richest man in the world? Dropped out. Yeah, that's the ticket. I'm sure inapproaprate commercial use of government and university property didn't have anything to do with him "dropping out." Eric From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jun 28 15:54:01 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Choose Dumpster #1, Dumpster #2, Dumpster #3 Message-ID: For me something about dumpsters seems to have a siren call like mermaids luring ships on the rocks. My son laughs every time I'm driving down the street and all of a sudden announce, "is that a full dumpster over there?" My feeling is that when somebody puts stuff in the dumpster they are "saying it has no value", I just want to prove them wrong. Having the "eye" to find the value in the trash, to recognize "good stuff". I'm like an archeologist walking through an area looking at rocks hoping to find the fossil missing link. The auction location scenario is a contest to see who can discern the "true" value of stuff and convince everyone else to drop out. The vintage machine and software that may be for sale seem to be more of a "known" commodity. Maybe it's the adventure, the thrill of discovery, the agony of lifting trash to find the pearl. I haven't had a breakdown yet but it could be caused if I had to choose between 3 dumpsters being approached by a single trash truck. Wait a minute it could be worse, 3 dumpsters each being approached by a trash truck. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 28 15:57:45 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: "FBA" "Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing"" (Jun 28, 11:07) References: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 11:07, FBA wrote: > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? Very little, now. I used to, but I've run out of room (I hid a scanner and an SGI monitor in my wife's wardrobe recently). Every so often, someone says "I hear you collect..." and before you know it, there's another one. They seem to come in little bursts, too -- nothing interesting for months, then two or three in a week from different sources. > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? Not nearly enough :-) A few months ago, I reached the state in the garage that there literally was no room to get *to* almost anything, far less *into* it. Six weeks ago was the point at which it all got moved out, and the conversion/extension work began. By this weekend, I'll be putting in the new network cable and starting painting in the new computer room. The walls have been lined and plastered (makes the room smaller, but deals with the condensation issues), new ceiling, it's all rewired (175 metres of cable in the power circuits alone), purpose-built workbenches (still to be built, though), raised computer floor, floor boxes for power and network, floor-to-ceiling shelves in one corner to hold and run about 20 small machines and their peripherals, space for two DEC racks and a couple of BA23's. Of course, not everything that went out will fit back in, but most will, and will be usable. Though it might be a while before I finish all the benches and stuff, and then I better move the scanner and monitor before I do much else, or The Boss might renege on her promise to pay for half of it! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 28 16:22:06 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Peter Turnbull wrote: > Six weeks ago was the point at which it all got moved out, > and the conversion/extension work began. By this weekend, > I'll be putting in the new network cable and starting painting > in the new computer room. The walls have been lined and > plastered (makes the room smaller, but deals with the > condensation issues), new ceiling, it's all rewired (175 metres > of cable in the power circuits alone), purpose-built workbenches > (still to be built, though), raised computer floor, floor boxes > for power and network, floor-to-ceiling shelves in one corner to > hold and run about 20 small machines and their peripherals, space > for two DEC racks and a couple of BA23's. Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient time/money/space? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 28 14:06:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 27, 0 11:12:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/13260cfc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 28 14:18:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000628000555.00961c30@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 28, 0 00:05:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/e8d33527/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 28 15:51:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 28, 0 00:09:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/cab58737/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 15:29:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I've asked around at a couple of prominent computer museums, but > they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they > archive and index the original software, like they've never considered > it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the > wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject > at all. Assumptions like these don't take into account lack of staff or lack of funding for such projects. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 15:35:02 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: College Message-ID: <005801bfe141$3c340830$7764c0d0@ajp166> From: Passer, Michael To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:48 PM Subject: OT: College >degree. Doing so right after high school is the path of >least resistance--it _is_ harder when you're older (from >experience). However when older it can be a more directed activity. >have filled that time--such as having served in the Peace >Corps, the military, or a real-world job--that might just >have made a person who waited to go to college appreciate >the opportunity laid before them. A person who did such a >thing may well be a better candidate for it. Big time. >While there is no shortage of the kind of people >who will not take a second look at those whose resumes >don't fit the mold, there are also plenty of others less >closed minded who would likely be more satisfying to >work for. so very true. Those are the people willing to offer challenges that both benefit the business and the people. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 15:40:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby Message-ID: <005901bfe141$3cecf7f0$7764c0d0@ajp166> From: r. 'bear' stricklin >I have to add my two cents to this. Yes, some companies will demand >degrees and expect to see a candidate with 100% conventional >background. In the tech sector, at least, these companies don't seem to be >in the norm and where they do exist, are the LEAST interesting companies >to work for. Over an extended period I encounterd a lot of old guard companies that fit that mold or worse have sterotypes on the brain. >Today I am 23 years old and have hit the top of my profession (UNIX >systems administration). In terms of technical knowledge, I outrank nearly It will make difference when your 47 and looking. >Not once has my lack of a degree affected my ability to find a job. In >fact, I am very up-front about my short-lived and extremely unglamourous >engagement at uni. With 30 years behind me and 6 major companies I can say at one time It didn't either for me. Then as athey say, I got old. >Yes, I am tooting my own horn here (quite loudly) but if I don't toot it, >I'm afraid the fact that a successful career can be built on things other >than advanced degrees may slip by unnoticed. Much truth to that, but some day it will come to you or someone with same expereince and he'll have the degree... >Will I go back to school? Yes. Will it be to get a technical degree? >Probably not. Divinity or theology are looking like likely candidates. Same here. I've visited from time to time for various courses but if I go for the degree electronics or computer will not be the focus either. Allison From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 15:31:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F78EAF@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Eros, Anthony wrote: > Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there anything > on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable > price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. Yes, you scored. I have all the docs for it but a couple volumes are out on loan. Contact me privately so we can work out arrangements for copying. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 28 16:56:12 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000628175612.26200c86@trailing-edge.com> >> I've asked around at a couple of prominent computer museums, but >> they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they >> archive and index the original software, like they've never considered >> it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the >> wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject >> at all. >Assumptions like these don't take into account lack of staff or lack of >funding for such projects. I'm sure that's a good part of it. Another part of it is that I get the sense that most of the curators don't trust anyone else with what software they do have (whether it be punched cards or paper tape) and they'd rather just let it sit and rot away rather than do something to archive it. I'm not exactly a newbie to the field of archiving software and data - for example, the DECUS PDP-10 and PDP-11 software collections I maintain represent several thousand input tapes and floppies covering the last five decades, and Mentec will shortly be issuing CD's containing DEC PDP-11 OS archives I've archived over the years - but I get the feeling that I'm not "a member of the club" when it comes to dealing with museums and other archives. Maybe my technical background (physics, math, and computers) puts me at a severe disadvantage compared to folks who are trained to be museum curators or librarians. Whatever the reason, so far most of my offers to volunteer my equipment and time to archive the old software is simply ignored. Sometimes I get a polite letter back, but never do I get the impression that there's some coherent plan to usefully archive the old software. In some cases I'm told that archiving is flat out impossible for technical reasons (I once had a heated debate with a SI curator who insisted that 8" floppies couldn't be read or written anymore.) Or maybe I feel too strongly that all the stuff should be archived, and my strong feelings immediately put me in the "crackpot" category as far as museum curators are concerned. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Jun 28 17:09:13 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay Message-ID: Someone just listed an 11/44 on eBay today; the URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=369721415 System seems to include no disk or tape other than "dual tape drives" (e.g., dual TU58's ...). It has no bids right now, so I couldn't even make a guess at what the reserve is. I'd bid on it myself, if I had a reasonable way to get it to the East Coast .... --Pat. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Jun 28 17:26:36 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com>; from Bill Sudbrink on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400 References: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? I'm already doing it to an extent. I have a 10x20 room in the middle of my house. It used to be a patio, and my house is C-shaped and built with block, so that means this room had block walls on 3 sides already. I put 4 racks across the 4th side, which fills up about half of that side. Then I built about 4 feet of 4-inch-thick block wall, reinforced with rebar and concrete, and then a door opening, and then 18" of 8-inch block. Long-term I'm working on an air-powered sci-fi-style sliding steel door (more about that at the bottom of http://gw.kb7pwd.ampr.org/~ecloud/journal/991205.html). The half-width block is to make room for the door to slide into when it opens. The floor is 12" slate tile. There are cable trays hanging from the ceiling (steel studs hanging from bailing wire work well enough; I couldn't find anything else that more closely resembled a cable tray at Home Depot.) There's a projector to project TV or computer video on one of the 10' end walls (the entire wall). One rack is dedicated for A/V stuff, one for PC's, one has a 4-track open reel tape deck and one is mostly empty at the moment. (But the last two are not full-height either; I need to get a matched set of full-height racks some day. I will probably inherit my dad's eventually.) The all-block walls mean I can crank up the sound on a movie without any of it being audible outside the house; and they also will provide security when I get all the steel doors done. There is the one sliding door in progress, then I need to replace the french doors on the opposite wall with steel ones, then build some sliding doors behind the racks. And I may end up doing some roof work too; the adjacent roof over the next converted patio behind this one leaks because it is too close to horizontal, and it will be difficult to get it to slope any more without raising the roofs above both rooms higher. This room is not quite ideal; it could be bigger. But it has the potential to be the most secure and soundproof. I have lots of junk spread throughout the rest of the house anyway. I'm not married so can get away with that. Also if I was building from scratch, I think I would do the raised-floor thing. Maybe use aluminum diamondplate squares. (or not... I do walk around barefoot in there a lot) It would also let me do more of the sci-fi decorating, like maybe some backlit glass-block sections at the doorways, or something like that. In this house the floors are concrete and all at the same height, so I'd rather keep it that way rather than having to step up into the computer room. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From transit at lerctr.org Wed Jun 28 18:02:56 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: So far, I've mostly stuck with micros (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc.) But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie like me to: a. ship b. get it running c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, etc.) d. keep it running (does it require specialized maintenance) My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. So, should I jump into the fray? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 18:08:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 28, 2000 03:54:58 PM Message-ID: <200006282308.QAA01283@shell1.aracnet.com> > I've heard of the Hercules emulator project, but I don't know what > software they have archived so far, or what efforts they are currently > making. If someone could point me towards an index of their software > archives I'd appreciate it. I played with Hercules briefly a while back when I had some free time (free time? what's that). Anyway, here are some links, I don't think they've got any kind of a list of available software though. http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360/ http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/ Links to the software archives: http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/hercfaq.html BTW, I didn't know what I was doing, but the emulator seems to be very cool, and very well done. I was able to get OS/360 booted on it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 17:36:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at Jun 28, 2000 06:09:13 PM Message-ID: <200006282236.PAA28604@shell1.aracnet.com> > Someone just listed an 11/44 on eBay today; the URL is > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=369721415 > > System seems to include no disk or tape other than "dual tape drives" > (e.g., dual TU58's ...). It has no bids right now, so I couldn't even > make a guess at what the reserve is. > > I'd bid on it myself, if I had a reasonable way to get it to the East > Coast .... > > --Pat. Reading the 'description', I'm left wondering if it contains any cards! Or if it's just an empty chassis! Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 28 18:15:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <200006282308.QAA01283@shell1.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200006282308.QAA01283@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000628231549.16535.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > I was able to get OS/360 booted on it. Surely you mean IPL'd, don't you? :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 18:42:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" at Jun 28, 2000 06:02:56 PM Message-ID: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> Um, I suppose I'm fairly 'into' VAXen, and I definitly like messing with VMS. I've one thing to say about this system. *I* wouldn't touch it! Getting the stuff to get it up and running would likely be a real pain (although I do have a system console for one). If you want to mess with VAXen then get a 3100 series MicroVAX or VAXstation, or a 4000 series VAXstation. If you're more interested in VMS, then you might also consider an Alpha. Then once you've got one system up you can consider getting other systems such as Q-Bus VAXen, or maybe a big VAXen. > So far, I've mostly stuck with micros (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc.) > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > like me to: > a. ship Probably have to be crated. > b. get it running Nightmarish I suspect > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > etc.) VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can be found at the following page. http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ But if you insist on being sick and twisted http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ http://www.netbsd.com Hardware? Just about anywhere. > d. keep it running (does it require specialized maintenance) Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. > My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple > of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, > halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. > > So, should I jump into the fray? YES!!! But, not with this system. Personally I think probably your best system to start with would be a VAXstation 4000 of some sort. A personal VAX with 24MB is quite nice, a personal Alpha with about 112MB is quite nice (the amount of RAM is probably the biggest thing to consider). 1-2GB of Disk space and a CD-ROM would also be recommended. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 28 18:51:20 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Re: Getting into VAXing (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14682.36728.954365.733207@phaduka.neurotica.com> Zane. You wimp. An 8350 is a fairly friendly BIbus system. Nothing weird about it. It's perhaps not the best "first" VAX, but it's certainly not as daunting as something like an 11/780 or an 8800. There's certainly more to VAX life than the desktop machines. If this guy is motivated, and the machine is in reasonably good shape, and maybe with a little help from us, I'll bet he can get this machine up & running with only a little bit of sweat. -Dave McGuire On June 28, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Um, I suppose I'm fairly 'into' VAXen, and I definitly like messing with > VMS. I've one thing to say about this system. *I* wouldn't touch it! > Getting the stuff to get it up and running would likely be a real pain > (although I do have a system console for one). > > If you want to mess with VAXen then get a 3100 series MicroVAX or > VAXstation, or a 4000 series VAXstation. If you're more interested in VMS, > then you might also consider an Alpha. Then once you've got one system up > you can consider getting other systems such as Q-Bus VAXen, or maybe a big > VAXen. > > > > So far, I've mostly stuck with micros (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc.) > > > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > > like me to: > > a. ship > > Probably have to be crated. > > > b. get it running > > Nightmarish I suspect > > > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > > etc.) > > VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can > be found at the following page. > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > > But if you insist on being sick and twisted > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > http://www.netbsd.com > > Hardware? Just about anywhere. > > > d. keep it running (does it require specialized maintenance) > > Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've > found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM > Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model > probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. > > > My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple > > of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, > > halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. > > > > So, should I jump into the fray? > > YES!!! But, not with this system. Personally I think probably your best > system to start with would be a VAXstation 4000 of some sort. A personal > VAX with 24MB is quite nice, a personal Alpha with about 112MB is quite > nice (the amount of RAM is probably the biggest thing to consider). 1-2GB > of Disk space and a CD-ROM would also be recommended. > > Zane > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 28 18:52:21 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: "Bill Sudbrink" "Your dream computer room." (Jun 28, 17:22) References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <10006290052.ZM3424@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 17:22, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Peter Turnbull wrote: > > Six weeks ago was the point at which it all got moved out, > > and the conversion/extension work began. By this weekend, > Well, I can temper that a little, maybe :-) Firstly, it's smaller than it sounds, and secondly, this is the culmination of 10 years saving to do it: when we moved here 10 years ago, it was obvious that the garage was designed to be extended to the house, joining the car port and leaving the latter as the garage (it would then be fully enclosed). However, the week we got the keys, I was made redundant, and all plans/dreams were put on hold. After a while I went back to uni to finish my degree[1], and it wasn't at all clear that we'd stay in York when I graduated. I got a job on a 2-year contract as a sysadmin at the uni, still no security, and meanwhile my wife was doing a weekly commute to work in Edinburgh (200 miles away) because she had too good a job to give up. So we continued to save any spare money, and last year my job was made permanent (with a raise) at about the same time my wife landed a good job in Yorkshire. We spent quite a while chewing over plans before we decided to call the builder, organise a loan, and the garage plus small extension is now (nearly) a computer room-cum-workshop and a utility room (for the washing machine, freezer, etc). A lot was done "on the cheap". I got the flooring from someone who reclaims such things from old buildings; a friend was buying a large quantity and I got mine extra cheap -- but I had to spend a weekend with a blowtorch removing the old glue from the supports, wire brushing them, and a day getting them cut down to size and so on. Another day sorting out good panels from bad (on top of 7' stacks) and moving them 25 miles (and they're heavy!). I got the modular shelf supports as surplus, from another building project, along with locks and door fittings I wanted. I got a lot of network cable and fittings cheaply, over a period of time. I got a patch panel free, a while ago, for example. A local kitchen unit supplier has a 50%-or-more-off sale -- guess where I got the cupboard units. My 5" metalworking vice was a "found object" several years ago. [1] Actually, to start again from scratch. First time around, I went to University straight from school, realised partway through 1st year I'd made a bad course choice, and gave up. Anyway, it was so many decades ago that it counted for zero credit. > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? Much what I'm doing now, but bigger, of course :-) The new room is 2.7 metres (9') by 4.6m (15'). One side is computer space, the other side will have my drill, miniature lathe, electronics bench, workbench and vise, etc. Only about 1/2 - 2/3 of my collection of micros will fit and be usable, and there's no room for the PCB developing tanks I acquired, nor for my photographic tanks and enlarger. Nearly all the DEC equipment will fit in the two racks. Honest. OK, maybe something will have to go on top. What did that brochure say the maximum floor loading was? I'd make it two rooms, each about 10' x 15', one for computers, the other for electronics/photo/mechanics. Or maybe the PCB and photo stuff should be separate again, away from the dust. Lots of power sockets in both; let's say one twin socket per linear foot of wall. Surge and RFI suppressors, of course, and separate circuits for computers/electronics/tools. RCD on the tools but maybe not the minis. Network connections (or rather, structured wiring, since some will be used for serial or control lines) everywhere, even beside the lathe (maybe I'll use those stepper motors one day). One bench with a built-in light box. Floor-to-ceiling shelves, fully adjustable, in units 600mm wide (2') and 700mm deep for all the micros. And their monitors! I'd want about 4 of those units (I will have 2). Make them strong (the brackets in mine are rated for a 67kg load). Space to walk all round the 19" racks (I'll have about 20" behind mine, accessible from one side only). A place to put the microfiche reader where I can use it with moderate comfort (it used to be on top of a 5' high shelf unit!). Desk space for a few favourite machines, and a trolley with 'scope, BBC Micro, terminal and printer, and of course make sure there's space to wheel it around to where it's needed. Plenty of bookshelves - I have a full set of RSX manuals, two sets of RT11, one Solaris, lots of other Unix, Acorn, programming, and networking stuff, and shelfloads of data books. I just had to turn down a couple of shelfloads of SGI manuals because I have no room left :-( Leave some wall space for a noticeboard and/or whiteboard. Air conditioning would be nice, but I've settled for a large(ish) extractor fan. No budget left! Heating is, of course, largely by minicomputer :-) though now there is a small central heating radiator and we have a portable dehumidifier which I used to use to keep the workshop air dry (cheaper than heating, and saves a lot of tools from condensation/damp damage). Good lighting -- I'd go for those fluorescent fittings with the aluminium diffuser grids built in if I could afford it (they're about 70 UKP a throw). Ah well, next time around ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jpdavis at gorge.net Wed Jun 28 18:53:52 2000 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <395A9010.7D5A2EDC@gorge.net> A classic dinosaur pen, Raised flooring, Central Air, Glass enclosure. Jim Davis From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 18:56:51 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400 References: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000628185651.E10437@mrbill.net> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? I bought my current house with the intention of using part of it as a "machine room". It has a 2-car garage, thats been "retrofitted" with fake wood paneling, a "finished" ceiling, etc, and some really cheap carpet. I'm going to redo the floor with composition vinyl tile (like what they have in the halls of high schools, etc), and have the electrics beefed-up a bit. No computer flooring, but I'm going to bolt a couple of racks directly to the concrete floor, and put in a BIG window AC unit, so I can comfortably work out there in the middle of the summer here in Texas (its been 95+F here for the past 2-3 weeks..) Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 19:02:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay Message-ID: <20000629000209.7945.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, it says "do not assme item includes anything other than what is shown in the pictures" and the pictures clearly show the cardcage full of cards, so I wouldn't worry too much. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 19:01:05 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:02:56PM -0500 References: <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: <20000628190104.F10437@mrbill.net> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:02:56PM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple > of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, > halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. > So, should I jump into the fray? I'd recommend starting with a machine such as a VAXstation 3100 or 4000-VLC, and then working to older bigger hardware from there... I've currently got a VS3100 and a 4000-VLC (master.decvax.org). I'd kill to have a 11/7x0 machine (I've got plenty of room for it), but have yet not been able to find one available within a reasonable distance (and have yet to find *any* DEC hardware available in Austin...) Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 15:50:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <000201bfe156$cf791800$6d64c0d0@ajp166> From: Bill Sudbrink >spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal >"fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient >time/money/space? Wooha, now there a blue sky idea. Simple though, 1000sqft with net power drops from the ceiling, floor would not be raised but work benches for smaller systems plus a rolling work bench for doing repair work. One wall would be manuals and spares. Oh yes, Air conditioning for the bigger boxen and me too. Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 28 19:11:49 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 28, 2000 04:42:02 PM Message-ID: <200006290011.SAA11071@calico.litterbox.com> > > > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > > like me to: > > a. ship > > Probably have to be crated. > > > b. get it running > > Nightmarish I suspect > > > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > > etc.) > > VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can > be found at the following page. > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > > Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've > found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM > Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model > probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. The 8350 isn't all that bad. I ran one when I worked for the university lo these many years ago. Reasonably quick, as I recall it used 110 instead of 220 power, and so on. Some caviets: 1. Unless this machine comes with a SCSI card or you can get one for it inexpensively, I wouldn't bother. The drives that it was designed for are huge, slow, not very big datawise, and noisy. 2. It can NOT netboot, at least not as a VMScluster leaf node. I tend to agree with Zane's recommendation for starting with a vaxstation or microvax 3100. The 8350 wouldn't be my first choice for a beginner's machine. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 19:21:05 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Available: RL02K-DC disk pack Message-ID: <20000628192105.G10437@mrbill.net> Anybody have a use for an RL02K-DC disk pack? In original box, even. I had intended to make it into a clock, but the shock meter isnt red yet, and it would be a sin to destory a still-usable piece of no-longer-made media... Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 28 19:21:37 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <395A9691.C03068A6@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? In line according to increasing amounts of time/space/money: First by a long ways, BIG, at least a 10,000 square feet minimum building with fire protection and climate control to provide for a display area and the rest of the items. Second, a fire proof, climate controlled area to provide a reasonable degree of protection for documentation/software. Third, plenty of power to take care of any big iron. Forth, a WELL equipped tech area for working/playing with the computers. Fifth, plenty of shelving for storage of computers/peripherals/etc. not on display. Sixth, a classroom with a program to encourage young people to learn more than just how to turn on a computer and think they are then a genius. Seventh, an aggresive program to solicit cooperation of industry, user groups, etc. in documenting the history of computers. Eighth, an auditorium where talks on computer related subjects could be given. Those are the things off the top of my head. The number and scope of this list could be increased almost effortlessly :). From retro at retrobits.com Wed Jun 28 19:31:11 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" References: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <009f01bfe161$5d846be0$0201640a@colossus> ----- Original Message ----- From: "FBA" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:07 AM Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? Well, I've taken to spending a few hours every other weekend or so hitting the local thrift stores. Sometimes it is slim pickings, while at other times it really pays off, like the TRS-80 Model I L2 I picked up at Goodwill for $4, then fixed with a $3 fuse (thanks to folks on this list). > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? I've been trying to fit in more time playing with the C128. How many hours a week, I can't precisely say. But I probably spend as much time playing per week as I do looking, if not more. I have a "vintage" desk in my house devoted mostly to the C128. However, since my collection is primarily Commodore, I can use the monitor (1080) and disk drive (1571) with most any of my machines, including VIC-20, C64, C16, +4 (just purchased, currently en-route to my house) and C128. I hooked up a 1541 (using a variant of the XE1541 cable) to my Linux box and use software that lets me copy files from the Internet to Commodore-format disks. I can even get CP/M software over to the C128 using a two-step procedure. It's a blast playing with 15+ year-old software again! > What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? See above. > Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? Well, I feel a little bad about the VIC-20, and I'm going to spend some more time with it. Why, you might ask? Well, it's such an incredibly simple contraption, you can know almost everything there is to know about it. That's appealing to me. I'd like to really put it through it's paces. I'm looking for a 8K or 16K RAM upgrade though...3.5K is a little slim, even for a determined hobbyist! - Earl Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 19:36:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <14682.36728.954365.733207@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 28, 2000 07:51:20 PM Message-ID: <200006290036.RAA14293@shell1.aracnet.com> > Zane. You wimp. An 8350 is a fairly friendly BIbus system. Yep, in this case feel free to call me a wimp. I've seen pieces of a 8350, I really don't want to mess with something that big, and slow unless it's a 11/780. Still you've got to remember my primary interest is VMS, not the hardware under it, though I do like playing with the hardware. Also, space is currently my primary concern, I don't have any. > Nothing weird about it. It's perhaps not the best "first" VAX, but > it's certainly not as daunting as something like an 11/780 or an > 8800. There's certainly more to VAX life than the desktop machines. Sure there is more to VAX life than desktops, and I've got some, BUT I wouldn't recommend one to anyone as a first VAX. Besides having that desktop can help get the BIG VAX up and running. Shoot, my first two VAXen were a VAXstation II/RC and MicroVAX II. I sure wouldn't recommend either as first systems unless they're picked up for free. If they're still running on MFM disks, you'll probably have a real headache getting the system running. I love Q-Bus systems, but don't think they should be a first system. It's to easy to pick up a VAXstation 3100 dirt cheap, or free now. > If this guy is motivated, and the machine is in reasonably good > shape, and maybe with a little help from us, I'll bet he can get this > machine up & running with only a little bit of sweat. > > -Dave McGuire Um... I saw this on eBay yesterday, and as I read it, it's basically just the CPU. I'm sorry, I do not consider this a good first system. I maintain that the best first system is either a 3100 or 4000 series system. BTW, what's the power and cooling requirements for one of these puppies? You really need to consider that, and the fact it's apparently in a 40" Rack! Remember shipping was one of his concerns . Zane From ryan at inc.net Wed Jun 28 19:43:38 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing References: <200006290011.SAA11071@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <395A9BBA.D8916E94@inc.net> I realize that VMS is the one true OS for VAXen... But let's say I was in a mood to run a *BSD... what's a good, neat looking, older, classic VAX that at least has ethernet and scsi easily available and supported? R Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > > > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > > > like me to: > > > a. ship > > > > Probably have to be crated. > > > > > b. get it running > > > > Nightmarish I suspect > > > > > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > > > etc.) > > > > VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can > > be found at the following page. > > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > > > > Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've > > found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM > > Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model > > probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. > > The 8350 isn't all that bad. I ran one when I worked for the university lo > these many years ago. Reasonably quick, as I recall it used 110 instead of 220 > power, and so on. Some caviets: 1. Unless this machine comes with a SCSI > card or you can get one for it inexpensively, I wouldn't bother. The drives > that it was designed for are huge, slow, not very big datawise, and noisy. > 2. It can NOT netboot, at least not as a VMScluster leaf node. I tend to > agree with Zane's recommendation for starting with a vaxstation or microvax > 3100. The 8350 wouldn't be my first choice for a beginner's machine. > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 19:38:18 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: College References: <200006281859.LAA01324@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001501bfe162$54d8c440$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, going to college opens the doors so you don't have to become adept at "breaking-and-entering" though that may still be necessary over the long run. Nowadays, the information you take from your classes is generally obsolete before final exams, but the techniques in acquiring and applying it are not. Moreover, the degree shows that you were, at least, responsible enough to stick with it and attend enough classes and do enough of the work to graduate. It shows you can finish something, while graduate school shows that you can finish something pretty sizeable without having your hand held. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:59 PM Subject: OT: College > Mike Cheponis wrote: > > Richard, > > > > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > > richest man in the world? > > > > -Mike Cheponis > > Hi > You do have to be smart enough to learn how to steal without > breaking serious laws. You have to learn how to turn on friends. > You need to be really lucky. But, most of all, you have to be > driven. > > For Will > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > references, I'd have a hard time getting past HR. One still > needs the knowledge that you'd get from college. I have taken > many extension courses as well as read and understood many > upper college level books. I've never stopped learning, even > though I left college in the middle. Although, I have a better > excuse than most, I was, also, tired of the entire > school thing. > Find a way to stay in school. > One other piece of advice. Don't listen to counselors. They > wouldn't be doing the job there doing if they really knew what > they were doing. Decide what you want from college and go for it. > Dwight > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 19:40:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20000629000209.7945.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Will Jennings" at Jun 28, 2000 06:02:09 PM Message-ID: <200006290040.RAA14711@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Well, it says "do not assme item includes anything other than what is shown > in the pictures" and the pictures clearly show the cardcage full of cards, > so I wouldn't worry too much. Doh! You're right! I'm obviously needing my eyes checked. I only saw the top picture. Strange... Hmm, wonder what cards are in it..... Zane From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Jun 28 19:35:02 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: Hi Francois, On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, FBA wrote: > Howdy all, > > Another free for all question: > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? Bout 15 minutes a day to search EBay, and another hour perusuing auction sites. > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? > All weekend during cold weather, very little during the summer. > I've found lately that when I'm done with the rounds (that is when I can do > the rounds) I usually don't have time to do the play and the machine often > end up on a shelf (or floor or table or....) until I finaly free myself up. > Also as the collection grows I have less time to spend with each machine and > some don't get out anymore (C64, C128, ADAM etc...). It seems that the > longer the setup time the less likely the machine is going to be used. > I used to try to get one representative of each group easilly accessible but > it is now impossible. > What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? > Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? > > Francois > I feel guilty about the stack of VS3100's and DS3100's that I need to test, document, clean up, and sell. I want to build two boxes with a variety of parts to test NetBSD ports on, and unload the rest. I feel guilty about the stack of documentation I have that needs to be scanned, buffed, PDFed, and posted to the website I need to build. I feel guilty about the home repair and improvement that isn't getting done. I feel guilty about not getting out and meeting more people (female), and not getting in better shape (not round). If I had kids or pets I'd feel guilty about not spending enough quality time with them. I don't feel guilty about doing any of the above things whilst my computers sit idle. Clint From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 19:43:11 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: College References: <005801bfe141$3c340830$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <003101bfe163$07b24a00$0400c0a8@winbook> True, fer shurr . . . BUT . . . ask anyone who's looked for work in this labor market, when they say people are being cold-called by headhunters and the like . . . ask someone who fits the conventional model, even 20 years hence, and then ask someone who doesn't, for whatever reason, military, family, winning the lotto, making a million-selling record, etc, and see who gets the jobs and who doesn't. It's hard enough getting people to read a resume' without having to wade through lots of difficult-to understand material in it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: College > From: Passer, Michael > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:48 PM > Subject: OT: College > > > >degree. Doing so right after high school is the path of > >least resistance--it _is_ harder when you're older (from > >experience). > > > However when older it can be a more directed activity. > > >have filled that time--such as having served in the Peace > >Corps, the military, or a real-world job--that might just > >have made a person who waited to go to college appreciate > >the opportunity laid before them. A person who did such a > >thing may well be a better candidate for it. > > > Big time. > > >While there is no shortage of the kind of people > >who will not take a second look at those whose resumes > >don't fit the mold, there are also plenty of others less > >closed minded who would likely be more satisfying to > >work for. > > > so very true. Those are the people willing to offer challenges > that both benefit the business and the people. > > Allison > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 28 19:45:09 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Re: Getting into VAXing (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <14682.36728.954365.733207@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200006290036.RAA14293@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14682.39957.64687.293219@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 28, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Yep, in this case feel free to call me a wimp. I've seen pieces of a 8350, > I really don't want to mess with something that big, and slow unless it's > a 11/780. 11/780s definitely have personality. > Um... I saw this on eBay yesterday, and as I read it, it's basically just > the CPU. I'm sorry, I do not consider this a good first system. I > maintain that the best first system is either a 3100 or 4000 series system. Call me adventurous... ;) > BTW, what's the power and cooling requirements for one of these puppies? Not too bad, actually, as long as you don't try to run RA-series disks on it. > You really need to consider that, and the fact it's apparently in a 40" > Rack! Remember shipping was one of his concerns . True...But the 8350 is a 10.5" chassis that can be re-racked to coexist with other hardware. I really like the BA32 chassis. :-) -Dave McGuire From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 28 19:43:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: "Shawn T. Rutledge" "Re: Your dream computer room." (Jun 28, 15:26) References: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: <10006290143.ZM3512@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 15:26, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > I'm already doing it to an extent. I have a 10x20 room in the middle > of my house. Sounds pretty cool... > This room is not quite ideal; it could be bigger. I've had some sort of workshop or hobby room in every house I've lived in, and I've noticed there seem to be only two sizes: too small, and not big enough. > away with that. Also if I was building from scratch, I think I would > do the raised-floor thing. Maybe use aluminum diamondplate squares. > (or not... I do walk around barefoot in there a lot) Don't, it's cold and noisy, and actually less strong than most computer flooring. I had the choice of carpet-tiled floor panels or vinyl. If you could get linoleum instead of vinyl, that's even better (more expensive, though). I went for vinyl because it's easier to sweep than a carpet (in a workshop, where there's sawdust and metal swarf) and much easier to lift vinyl-covered panels (the panel lifter is a suction device like the ones glass workers use for large sheets of glass) than carpet (velcro-backed lifters work on some types, but most use metal teeth to bite into the carpet tile). I was also put off by experience at work: the hardware techs tell me that the failure rate on PSUs and fans has risen three-fold since we moved from a building with a vinyl-surfaced flooring to one with carpet (more dust). However, carpet is much better acoustically. > In this house the floors are concrete and all at the same height, so > I'd rather keep it that way rather than having to step up into the > computer room. It doesn't cost much to have a layer of concrete screeding added. The utility room which occupies the part of the garage I didn't get, plus the extension, is 4" concrete screed on top of 2" expanded polystyrene insulation/damp-proofing, to make the two floors the same level. If it's not practical to raise the floor elsewhere, you might consider excavating the middle room a few inches. Damp isn't a big issue unless the level would be below the water table; in my room, there was an extra damp-proof layer added (basically thick polythene sheet) bonded into the existing damp-proof course in the original brick walls (and the interior layer, which is 4"x2" timber framing with glass fibre fill, set 2" back from the brickwork, sits on top of that, one layer of the sheeting continuing up the inside of the brickwork for a couple of feet). There's a 5" step up to our new utility room; that's very little really, but I'm going to build a small ramp so I can trundle a rack or the trolley in and out (I sometimes take stuff to University Open Days and suchlike). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed Jun 28 20:00:10 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer exhibit [Was: Re: Your dream computer room] Message-ID: <01eb01bfe165$603e37e0$0200a8c0@marvin> I've always envisioned at least four rooms for my museum: 1) a static display hall, with a variety of shelves extending out from the walls, holding a variety of micros with monitors/TVs. The computers would be running random demos (e.g. the Juggler or the Boing ball, for Amigaphiles) or programs. The aim is to provoke a "Wow!" reaction at the sheer variety of shapes, sizes, and colours of cases, monitors, and graphics. 2) A "period" gallery, where examples of important computers are shown in their natural habitat. e.g. a TI-99/4A with cassette recorder and wired remote controllers would be connected to a TV in a recreation of an early 80s rec. room, complete with red carpet, photoprinted wood panelling, Farrah Fawcett poster, and battered 60's Formica and steel furniture. 3) A "hands-on" arcade or exhibit, where relatively "expendable" common computers (e.g. C-64, TI-99/4A, Atari 800XL) are set up with a variety of games carts and business software (complete with tape drives, disk drives, dot matrix printers, etc) so people can experience what it was like to actually use these machines. 4) A restoration gallery, where people can see old computers on the workbench, and restoration/repair techniques. Displays on the walls could show exploded or cutaway views of disk drives, joysticks, printers, etc. and explain the technology thay was used in these machines. Then, there would be the vault, with retina and handprint scanner, that only lets me in to play with my favourite machines. If there's anyone in Western Canada who would like to collaborate on building such a museum (or just dream about it) please contact me off-list. I'd like to get a ClassicComp club for Western Canada off the ground, and maybe even plan for VCF North in ? 2002 ?. Cheers, Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 20:14:21 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <395A9BBA.D8916E94@inc.net> from "Ryan K. Brooks" at Jun 28, 2000 07:43:38 PM Message-ID: <200006290114.SAA18211@shell1.aracnet.com> > I realize that VMS is the one true OS for VAXen... But let's say I was in a mood to > run a *BSD... what's a good, neat looking, older, classic VAX that at least has > ethernet and scsi easily available and supported? > > R Hmmm, a good, neat looking VAX??? That's a rough requirement when coupled with easily available SCSI. Easily available SCSI basically means a 3100 or 4000 series. However, I'll be the first to say that they're not very atractive. The following page might help you some with your decission: http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html The one column will tell you which models have built in SCSI. If you can get a MicroVAX 3200/3300/3400/3500/3600/3700/3800/3900 with a SCSI interface in a BA213 Pedistal (or the other pedistal, but not the BA23 or BA123) then you'd probably have a really cool looking system (at least I think they're cool looking). Having said this, of the Q-Bus systems my favorite chassis is the BA123, but it basically looks like a big box. You know... the VAXstation 4000/VLC is now listed as supporting NetBSD as of V1.5, and it's a neat *little* box. It's very limited, and you can only stuff 24MB of RAM and a 1" high 3.5" Hard Drive in it, but it's got SCSI and Ethernet, and is reasonably fast. I got one recently for a portable VMS box, and rather like it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 20:18:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <14682.39957.64687.293219@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 28, 2000 08:45:09 PM Message-ID: <200006290118.SAA18670@shell1.aracnet.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 28, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Not too bad, actually, as long as you don't try to run RA-series > disks on it. Depends on the RA-series disks I'd think. I'm running RA72's and RA73's on my MicroVAX 3. I've also got some RA92's, that I'd probably use if I had someplace to set them up. I'd rather not run RA60's or RA8x's :^) The add on eBay mentioned that the seller would toss in a RA92. Zane From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 28 20:29:09 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <20000628185651.E10437@mrbill.net> References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400 Message-ID: <395A6015.30381.1F23C22@localhost> On 28 Jun 2000, at 18:56, Bill Bradford wrote: > No computer flooring, but I'm going to bolt a couple of racks directly > to the concrete floor, and put in a BIG window AC unit, so I can > comfortably work out there in the middle of the summer here in Texas > (its been 95+F here for the past 2-3 weeks..) Oh, that's right, it's summer in Texas now. And I thought it was hot in Houston because I had so many computers running at once. :-) I always wanted a two story room where the second story was a balconey running along all four walls with a spiral stair case in one corner. The downstairs would have all my systems set up to play with and the upstairs part would be lined with bookshelves for manuels, books, etc. That's the basic idea anyway. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 28 20:34:35 2000 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer exhibit [Was: Re: Your dream computer room] References: <01eb01bfe165$603e37e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <00bf01bfe16a$2f280c80$a33c7c18@lawrence.ks.us> Hmm almost like my basement. 100 systems and counting. 16 up and running at any one time. it's not beautiful, but it is functional. I really need to get it cleaned up for company some day. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Gregory" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:00 PM Subject: Your dream computer exhibit [Was: Re: Your dream computer room] > I've always envisioned at least four rooms for my museum: > > 1) a static display hall, with a variety of shelves extending out from the > walls, holding a variety of micros with monitors/TVs. The computers would > be running random demos (e.g. the Juggler or the Boing ball, for > Amigaphiles) or programs. The aim is to provoke a "Wow!" reaction at the > sheer variety of shapes, sizes, and colours of cases, monitors, and > graphics. > > 2) A "period" gallery, where examples of important computers are shown in > their natural habitat. e.g. a TI-99/4A with cassette recorder and wired > remote controllers would be connected to a TV in a recreation of an early > 80s rec. room, complete with red carpet, photoprinted wood panelling, > Farrah Fawcett poster, and battered 60's Formica and steel furniture. > > 3) A "hands-on" arcade or exhibit, where relatively "expendable" common > computers (e.g. C-64, TI-99/4A, Atari 800XL) are set up with a variety of > games carts and business software (complete with tape drives, disk drives, > dot matrix printers, etc) so people can experience what it was like to > actually use these machines. > > 4) A restoration gallery, where people can see old computers on the > workbench, and restoration/repair techniques. Displays on the walls could > show exploded or cutaway views of disk drives, joysticks, printers, etc. > and explain the technology thay was used in these machines. > > Then, there would be the vault, with retina and handprint scanner, that > only lets me in to play with my favourite machines. > > If there's anyone in Western Canada who would like to collaborate on > building such a museum (or just dream about it) please contact me off-list. > I'd like to get a ClassicComp club for Western Canada off the ground, and > maybe even plan for VCF North in ? 2002 ?. > > Cheers, > Mark From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 20:42:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing Message-ID: <20000629014246.25985.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Zane. You wimp. An 8350 is a fairly friendly BIbus system. > > Yep, in this case feel free to call me a wimp. I've seen pieces of a 8350, > I really don't want to mess with something that big, and slow unless it's > a 11/780. The 8350 CPU is 10.5" tall, 3' deep and fits in a standard 19" rack. You typically see them in a 42" rack because the bottom is filled with room for cables and I/O bulkheads. I have an 8300 - same thing but with slower CPUs. Yes... CPUs... the 8200/8250 is a single CPU box (slow/fast), the 8300/8350s are slow and fast dual boxes. You can expand an 82x0 to an 83x0 as long as the firmware/microcode is the same on both CPU boards. This can be done in the field (which is how my 8200 was bumped up to an 8300) Fun little box. My employer paid $12,000 for mine in 1989. I got to haul it away for free five years later (w/RA-81, etc.) At the moment it has an MBA ESDI<->SDI box on it with 2.4Gb of 5.25" disks in a tray that's half the size and 1/8th the weight of the RA-81. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 20:43:35 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in the > public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system > software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public > domain), but also of user-group collections of software for > these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous > generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc. I might think could be out of luck. It seems that most IBM software (except for S/34, 36, and 38 stuff) goes away very quickly. I have a feeling IBM itself has something to do with this. If RCS/RI ever come across any, we will let you know. Likewise, if the few 3348 disk cartridges I have (REAL WInchesters!) still have good data, you can have that S/3 stuff (CCP01 and stuff), if it is in the public domain. Also, lets face it - IBM just doesn't have the prestige that DEC stuff does in the hacker world. I bet many IBM tapes and such were thrown away by the hackers themselves. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 20:43:47 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Available: RL02K-DC disk pack Message-ID: <20000629014347.1209.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody have a use for an RL02K-DC disk pack? In original box, even. > > I had intended to make it into a clock, but the shock meter isnt red > yet, and it would be a sin to destory a still-usable piece of > no-longer-made media... What's on it? I have enough blanks, but sometimes you can find interesting things on used packs, especially if it was a former distribution pack (I have at least one RSX-11 pack set) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From ryan at inc.net Wed Jun 28 20:51:11 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing References: <200006290114.SAA18211@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <395AAB8F.BC6BA5E7@inc.net> > > > Hmmm, a good, neat looking VAX??? That's a rough requirement when coupled > with easily available SCSI. Easily available SCSI basically means a 3100 or > 4000 series. However, I'll be the first to say that they're not very > atractive. > > The following page might help you some with your decission: > http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html Thanks for the link. I'm reading it now. To elaborate, I'm not saying I require that it has built in SCSI, but I want to be able to at least find & buy a SCSI interface for it. As long as I can get it in to my basement, and I can get it on my LAN and powered up, and NetBSD installed, I'll be happy. The weirder the h/w the better :-). Still pissed about getting kicked off the VAX Cluster at college, years ago I suppose, -R From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 20:46:05 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We can discuss this for ever and never agree on who's right!. Cats vs. Dogs, Chicken vs Egg. OK, I think this thread has pretty much run its course (maybe a little too much), so lets get on with other things. > I hope my comments are not being taken as flames -- this is not my > intention at all (although I am somewhat tired at the moment and probably > shouldn't be posting...). No flame. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 21:01:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <395AAB8F.BC6BA5E7@inc.net> from "Ryan K. Brooks" at Jun 28, 2000 08:51:11 PM Message-ID: <200006290201.TAA22576@shell1.aracnet.com> > Thanks for the link. I'm reading it now. > > To elaborate, I'm not saying I require that it has built in SCSI, but I want to be able > to at least find & buy a SCSI interface for it. > > As long as I can get it in to my basement, and I can get it on my LAN and powered up, and > NetBSD installed, I'll be happy. The weirder the h/w the better :-). > > Still pissed about getting kicked off the VAX Cluster at college, years ago I suppose, Well, any Q-Bus system can have a SCSI interface, BUT they're likely to cost in the $300-1000 range, unless you're lucky enough to get one with the system. BTW, that $1400 MicroVAX II with a SCSI interface on eBay is WAY overpriced. Zane From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 28 21:05:43 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000628220543.26200ce2@trailing-edge.com> William Doznelli wrote: >Tim Shoppa wrote: >> Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in the >> public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system >> software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public >> domain), but also of user-group collections of software for >> these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous >> generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc. >I might think could be out of luck. It seems that most IBM software >(except for S/34, 36, and 38 stuff) goes away very quickly. I have a >feeling IBM itself has something to do with this. There must've been an (or several) IBM "Big Iron" users groups at one point. Didn't they have a library of public-domain software they shared? I *do* realize that the entire IBM "Big Iron" philosophy is very different than, say, the DEC minicomputer or CP/M microcomputer philosophies, but still it's hard for me to imagine that there were *Zero* user group software libraries. >If RCS/RI ever come across any, we will let you know. Wasn't there supposed to be a RCS/RI trip to rescue a lot of old "big iron" stuff from a former IBM field service type? Did he have any OS distributions or field-service diagnostics among that stuff? Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 19:52:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <003101bfe167$77e5c050$6d64c0d0@ajp166> From: Tony Duell >Anyway, the IBM Incompatibles that I've got include : >Sanyo MBC555 >DEC Rainbow >HP150 >HP110+ >Sirius (Victor 9000) >IBM PCjr (sort-of. It'll boot standard PC-DOS, but quite a lot of standard >software won't run). >FTS-88 (I've never seen MS-DOS for it, only CP/M 86, but it's an 8088 box). You forgot the Vaxmate a 286 box that was mildly PC. >> Honestly, I have no desire for an altair/imsai/apple 1, so as long as those >> are "fashionable" and little else, I won't shed a tear over it. If, > >I, too, have little desire to own any of those. I have the altair, what junk. I do have a buch of other first machines of the SBC fame. Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 21:52:18 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Since we're on the topic of collections, I have this question: How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you make to stay in their good graces? Myself, I have the aforementioned 2-car garage, plus we have an "agreement" that for any "big" item, I have to get rid of an equivalent amount of stuff, whether it be modern or old. My SO just about throttled me when I mentioned "yeah, I picked up a couple more machines over the weekend" when I picked her up at the airport after a weekend trip a couple of years ago. She didnt quite think that the 35+ Sun SS1s, 3/80s, 3/50s, 3/60s, keyboards, and monitors, in piles in the living room, were a "couple" like I did. 8-) Of course, I lived in a 1/1 apartment at the time, so she was placated when I sold off most of the systems and bought her a leather jacket instead. Bill ("No, honey, please ignore the semi trailer and the forklift backing up to the garage...") -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 22:17:00 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628220543.26200ce2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Wasn't there supposed to be a RCS/RI trip to rescue a lot of old "big iron" > stuff from a former IBM field service type? Did he have any OS distributions > or field-service diagnostics among that stuff? RSC/RI and RICM fetched a lot of consoles, modems, terminals, and the like, plus lots of parts, and about 800 pounds of docs. But no software. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 28 22:32:55 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <395A7D17.17208.26392C9@localhost> On 28 Jun 2000, at 21:52, Bill Bradford wrote: > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? Mine is pretty cool with it. At first she thought it was a bit crazy but now she even helps find systems I may be interested in and sometimes suggests we go out on the weekend looking for systems. She even sort of liked the idea of having something like a PDP-11 around, thought it was neat. Of course this is the woman who wanted, and got, a stand up Centipede's video game for her birthday about 10 - 15 years ago. I use to think her "lack of flak" over my collection was due to me making an extra effort to do special things for her but she tells me that she learned long ago to pick her battles and when it comes to the computers, that was one battle she decided it wasn't worth fighting. And all my work with computers over the years has paid the bills so she figures it was worth it. Of course, I still think doing something special for her in return now and then helps too. ;-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Jun 28 23:27:41 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: A good question. I get to procure my computer hardware with minimal complaints, and she gets to accquire garden/house decorations with minimal complaints from me, subject to the sensible limits of our budget. This gets quite difficult for me since my appreciation of household decorations diminishes are their price increases. This phenomenon does not carry over as readily to computer gadgetry. Lately there has been a bit of an imbalance as the price some of the items on my wish list have inflated to the point where I don't purchase them... As for time, if I feel my quality time usage is out of balance I agree readily to proposals for alternate quality time. This often seems to involve trips to the inlaws. If my seven year old wants to read a story or go to the park generally I am there whether I have dedicated lots of time to my hobby or not. I review these techniques frequently since my implementation is sometimes less than perfect. Paul On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Bill Bradford wrote: > Since we're on the topic of collections, I have this question: > > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? > From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 23:33:07 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: MORE dec stuff available! Message-ID: <20000628233306.P10437@mrbill.net> I'm lucky enough to be the recipient of a large collection of PDP-11 and VAX stuff from an awesome guy in Houston, and I just finished unloading Haul #1 (with at least four more to go) from my truck, where its been for a week due to being busy with other things. Some of this is available to good homes (on a trade-for-other-stuff basis), but first, I have to brag, and everyone loves pictures: VMS 4.x "Orange Wall": ---------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/orange-wall.jpg PDP 11/02 in BA11-VA chassis: ----------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-front.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-front-logo-closeup.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-back.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-back-closeup-1.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-back-closeup-2.jpg Dual Zenith RX-01 compatible 8" floppy drives (attached to PDP-11): ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/eight-inch-floppys-front.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/eight-inch-floppys-switches.jpg Now, the stuff that I need to ID and is available for trade for other PDP/DEC/VAX stuff: A power supply and card cage/backplane: --------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/backplane-and-powersupply.jpg (labels on the power supply:) http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-label-1.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-label-2.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-label-3.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-plate.jpg A really big-ass ventilation fan, and DEC box it came in: --------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/spareparts-fan.jpg A front panel/bulkhead/key switch of some kind; I dunno if this goes with the 11/02 above: --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/frontpanel-switches.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/frontpanel-switches-pcb.jpg Finally, a box of five TU-58 DECtape IIs: ----------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/spareparts-dectapes.jpg Two of the DECtapes are labeled: BE-t493F-DE 000MUB2580 HSC50 OFFLINE TAPE V390 copr(C) 1983,89 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. The other three are still new in shrinkwrap. If anybody has a use for the card cage, power supply, backplane, fan, front switchpanel, or DECtapes, please let me know. Since I was given this stuff, I dont want to sell it - but I would like to trade it for other DEC stuff. Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 28 23:51:13 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: MORE dec stuff available! In-Reply-To: <20000628233306.P10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <395A8F71.6197.2AB45F2@localhost> Cool stuff. Congrats.... hey, wait a second... Houston? Hey leave the PDP-11 & VAX stuff in Houston!! There's enough stuff up in Austin! Now I'm going to have to come up there and "raid" Austin. :-) On 28 Jun 2000, at 23:33, Bill Bradford wrote: > I'm lucky enough to be the recipient of a large collection of PDP-11 > and VAX stuff from an awesome guy in Houston, and I just finished ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From phil at ultimate.com Thu Jun 29 00:28:49 2000 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Paul Allen's TOAD (was: Re: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurke r) Message-ID: <200006290528.BAA13543@ultimate.com> > Commands Manual (this is the heavier paper version, not the "phone > book" styled pub) Let me know when you put it up for auction. I've always wanted one! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 28 23:36:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >Since we're on the topic of collections, I have this question: > >How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if >you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you >make to stay in their good graces? Uneasy truce has a nice ring to it. Thoroughly disgusted, but recognizes this is clearly a sickness, phase, etc. that defies rational treatment. Major thinning of my collection hovers like a big wasp, with big pieces starting to go very soon. Seriously, major major clearance list for my garage coming soon. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 29 02:34:04 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: Bill Bradford "the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse" (Jun 28, 21:52) References: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <10006290834.ZM3882@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 21:52, Bill Bradford wrote: > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? Concessions? She took the rest of the garage and all of the extension :-) We have a deal: I don't ask her to mend my computers, and she doesn't ask me to help in the garden or the allotment she recently took on :-) Well that was the original deal, but occasionally I do help -- if there are paving slabs to move, or wood to be sawn. Liz is into gardening and computers rather like I'm into computers and gardening, so the utility room is also a garden store. I like to sit in the garden and she likes the convenience of email. So apart from the SGI Indigo on her desk, computers are restricted to the computer room (garage) and my office, and the network (especially Internet access for the web and email), printers and tech support will be available whenever required. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 06:46:19 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC2@TEGNTSERVER> [..snip..] > Anyway, the IBM Incompatibles that I've got include : > Sirius (Victor 9000) ??? I remember Victor going through lots of trouble before it disappeared; did it in fact get revived for a while as Sirius? Or was Sirius another company, buying V9000s and rebadging them? A Victor 9000 is one of the few PC-alikes I intend on adding to my collection; a Tandy 2000 would be another. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 06:50:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC3@TEGNTSERVER> > > > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? My erstwhile "partner" in embedded systems projects during the early 90s had rented space from an electrical repair firm; the building was a former post office. He had about a room of about 500 sq. ft., with 3-phase power and a raised floor. This would be my ideal; most ideal about it is that it would be somewhere other than inside my home. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 07:36:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC8@TEGNTSERVER> > There must've been an (or several) IBM "Big Iron" users groups at > one point. Didn't they have a library of public-domain software they > shared? Yes... IIRC, wasn't it called S.H.A.R.E.? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 07:42:39 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Without getting the entire "Preserve vs. Restore" argument started again, has anyone ever found a way to restore the original beige color to plastic skins that have discolored due to long exposure to UV? I'm assuming what's happening is more than just the lighter elements of the plastic evaporating, but rather that some kind of chemical change is taking place that likely can't be reversed. I would think paint to not be a solution; at least not for me, as it always takes better hand/eye coordination than I can manage. How about dyes? Has anyone tried some kind of analine dye to restore beige plastic? Dyes spread more evenly and I think can even penetrate perhaps a few microns. thanks, -doug quebbeman From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 29 08:06:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000629090634.26200cd2@trailing-edge.com> >> There must've been an (or several) IBM "Big Iron" users groups at >> one point. Didn't they have a library of public-domain software they >> shared? >Yes... IIRC, wasn't it called S.H.A.R.E.? Yes, SHARE still exists, but its online archives only extend back to 1997 and you have to fork over $250.00 and have an IBM mainframe and be approved by their membership committee just to view the archives. See http://www.share.org/ for more information... It's also unfortunate that SHARE's bylaws prohibit anyone other than SHARE from distributing their collected software. I was looking for public-domain OS/360 stuff, but maybe William's right: It just doesn't exist, and if it does exist, they don't want you to find it! Tim. From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 29 08:29:41 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <200006291329.JAA12272@world.std.com> My SO and I have two condos... we live at one and my computers lived at the other. We had an agreement that if anything new came in, something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little while. Well, we now have a storage area (10x20) and much of my collection has moved to storage (we're hoping to sell both condos and get a house -- *with a garage and/or basement* for my collection). Now that I have the storage place, I can get a little more stuff without having to let something go... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 08:35:13 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Univac browsers (Letterman 28-June-2000) In-Reply-To: <000629090634.26200cd2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000301bfe1ce$db32b7f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Just a tidbit. David Letterman, who likes joking on just about everything, especially his not exactly being with the times, started talking last night about the computer he just started playing with just recently. 'I got a Univac (pause) Gotta get on a stepladder to use it.' From vaxman at uswest.net Thu Jun 29 08:39:16 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: Hi Doug, I aways run plastic parts through the dishwasher first. It performed miracles on my Apple ]['s. Second, try soaking a throw-away (broken) in bleach. Fill up a laundry tub with water, dump in a gallon or more of bleach, and let it soak. The cheap plastic jobs at local home repair stores (Home Depot, Eagle, Lowes, etc) work well, and don't really need plumbing connections. If that doesn't work, I'm interested in knowing your luck with dying the items. The laundry tub would work well for that too :) clint On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Without getting the entire "Preserve vs. Restore" argument > started again, has anyone ever found a way to restore the > original beige color to plastic skins that have discolored > due to long exposure to UV? > > I'm assuming what's happening is more than just the lighter > elements of the plastic evaporating, but rather that some > kind of chemical change is taking place that likely can't > be reversed. > > I would think paint to not be a solution; at least not for > me, as it always takes better hand/eye coordination than I > can manage. > > How about dyes? Has anyone tried some kind of analine dye > to restore beige plastic? Dyes spread more evenly and I > think can even penetrate perhaps a few microns. > > thanks, > -doug quebbeman > > > > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 29 08:49:29 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse References: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <395B53E9.2039EBF4@mainecoon.com> Bill Bradford wrote: > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? Jen is of the opinion that, considering the universe of other possible vices and weaknesses that I could have selected from, this one, while perhaps a bit peculiar, is better than most. She's also suffered through my other hobbies -- cars, aviation, brewing and glass audio -- so she's already had a chance to perfect setting limits. I also don't fence her off from these activities but rather allow her to get involved to whatever level she chooses. Consequently she's become a pilot in her own right, is always there on brew day and while she's not going to be wiring up 211s anytime soon she enjoys the sound of glass and is always there to tell me how much she likes -- or dislikes -- my latest dabblings in analog. Her rules are few but hard: - This stuff has to remain confined to designated areas, which translates as rented storage, the garage and my office. Nothing can be stacked outside and the garage has to, in general, remain functional for at least one car. It is, however, possible to get a day pass to use the kitchen or the wash rack area in back in order to clean stuff. - It's a hobby, which means that it generally has to live somewhere below home and yard maintenance tasks in the priority scheme. - I'm allowed to spend significant sums in support of this (and other) hobbies, but it's factored into the overall scheme of things. If I get a new machine, she gets a new dress for her collection of Victorian clothing. If I get a new piece of test equipment she gets something for *her* lab (yesterday it was a power tree limber for her silvaculture lab). And before I buy that 5000 sq ft shop building down the road we have to tack on the new addition and buy an airplane. - I have to stay focused, especially since the trip she took with me to Marvin's place (Marvin has a collection to die for, but Jen made it clear that if mine ever became that large that she'd have me committed). All in all she's incredibly supportive of all the weird things that I do. I think part of her would prefer it if I hadn't selected *another* hobby which involves big, heavy, hard-to-move things, but it gives her fodder for when she wants to give me a good natured hard time ;-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 09:38:34 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000701bfe1d7$cc0f3470$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Just did this recently. Used Ajax Chlorine Scouring powder, without any scouring per se. Had a severly discolored VT240, realy unpresentable, sort of dark sunburned yellow. I fingerpainted on a paste of the Ajax, made pasty so it wouldn't drip anywhere it shouldn't and rubbed and waited. Add a little water if its too dry. Sponge off with a damp paper towel (again, so that water will not run out). The first sponging took off what appeared to be paint really thick plasticy stuff, with a lot of the color in it. Repeat sponging until no residue (3-4 passes). Took it down from "gross" to "slightly aged". Colors as remembered: Before: R 240 G 200 B 0 After: R 255 G 230 B 160 John A. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 29 10:34:41 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <20000629153441.68894.qmail@hotmail.com> Well... It would be an entire building, I like Marvin's 10,000 sq ft. minimum, as for the fire protection, I'd for sure want halon or something similar, i.e. NO water! A raised floor of course, but with twice the normal height under the floor. Also, a basement area containing some massive transformers (so I could get 440 volt power), and diesel generators in the event of power failure. There would also be room for a water cooling system, in the event I ever get lucky enough to own an IBM 3033 or other water-cooled machine. Central air is a must, I'd require it to be a positive air flow environent, meeting mil specs. Definetly climate-controlled, I like the fireproof room for docs and software idea, also a seperate room for spare boards and misc stuff. It would have to have an area for disk pack storage too. Another seperate workshop-type room, with logic analyzer, scope, etc. Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. Hell, why not my own substation? Also, a loading dock at semi height would be good, and there would be a nice long sloped ramp too. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 29 10:55:39 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <20000629153441.68894.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds like that off-shore drilling platform we have been hearing about I've made a start on mine. I just bought a house on a community airstrip and it has a 1200 sq ft hangar. I don't have a plane yet so here is the plan. 1. Move collection into the hangar. - DONE 2. Move into the house - This weekend 3. Start planning for remodel to include second story over garage and hangar. - Planning 4. Organize collection in hangar. Take inventory for the first time. 5. Weed out stuff that doesn't fit with collection. Offer orphans to this group for cost of shipping . (No big iron here) 6. Remodel (Start purging exccess inventory) 7. Move Collection into allocated area of remodel. 8. Start shopping for airplane now that computers have a new home. Probably a 10 year plan but at least the collection is dry and protected. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Well... > It would be an entire building, I like Marvin's 10,000 sq ft. minimum, as > for the fire protection, I'd for sure want halon or something similar, i.e. > NO water! A raised floor of course, but with twice the normal height under > the floor. Also, a basement area containing some massive transformers (so I > could get 440 volt power), and diesel generators in the event of power > failure. There would also be room for a water cooling system, in the event I > ever get lucky enough to own an IBM 3033 or other water-cooled machine. > Central air is a must, I'd require it to be a positive air flow environent, > meeting mil specs. Definetly climate-controlled, I like the fireproof room > for docs and software idea, also a seperate room for spare boards and misc > stuff. It would have to have an area for disk pack storage too. Another > seperate workshop-type room, with logic analyzer, scope, etc. Also, multiple > humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. Hell, why not my own substation? > Also, a loading dock at semi height would be good, and there would be a nice > long sloped ramp too. > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 11:06:23 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAECE@TEGNTSERVER> > Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. > Hell, why not my own substation? Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to have all the electricity you need plus generate your own fuel for future use! Hey, the original post did say "Dream", didn't it? 8D From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 29 11:25:32 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAECE@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: OK... If you want to dream.... Lets put it on the moon so all that stuff is easier to lug around. Oh .. Serious dreams... that is different. I think I see two classes of rooms here with their own unique requirements. 1. Microcomputer room.... No special power, floor, or environmental requirments 2. Big Iron room. Raised floor, 220Volt power, Big Aircon, and somebody real generous to pay the power bill. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. > > Hell, why not my own substation? > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > own fuel for future use! > > Hey, the original post did say "Dream", didn't it? > > 8D > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 29 11:35:22 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > Without getting the entire "Preserve vs. Restore" argument > started again, has anyone ever found a way to restore the > original beige color to plastic skins that have discolored > due to long exposure to UV? It can not be restored. On the Boatanchors list some time ago, there was a very detail post about why plastics yellow. > I'm assuming what's happening is more than just the lighter > elements of the plastic evaporating, but rather that some > kind of chemical change is taking place that likely can't > be reversed. Correct. Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too aggressive). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Jun 29 11:40:53 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: > We had an agreement that if anything new came in, > something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little > while. I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old "stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/1fdc52d9/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 11:58:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <000701bfe1d7$cc0f3470$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >Had a severly discolored VT240, realy unpresentable, >sort of dark sunburned yellow. I fingerpainted on a >paste of the Ajax, made pasty so it wouldn't drip >anywhere it shouldn't and rubbed and waited. Add a >little water if its too dry. Sponge off with a damp >paper towel (again, so that water will not run out). >The first sponging took off what appeared to be paint >really thick plasticy stuff, with a lot of the color >in it. Repeat sponging until no residue (3-4 passes). >Took it down from "gross" to "slightly aged". I'm not sure what the colours you pasted on at the end looked like, but this sounds more like Nicotine discolouration from being around a cigarette smoker. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 12:14:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED2@TEGNTSERVER> ROFL!!! -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steverob@hotoffice.com] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:41 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse > We had an agreement that if anything new came in, > something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little > while. I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old "stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Steve Robertson From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 12:24:23 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: A-1 Rating for Meyers Computer Services Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED3@TEGNTSERVER> Meyers Computer Services is an A-1 operation, so I can heartily recommend them if you ever want to do business with them. You may recall my post about a drive I bought on haggle. The drive in question arrived sans three SMD chips from the interface PCB, and would not spin up. The replacement arrived very quickly even though I told them to save money and go slow-boat-to-China with it. The replacement has the chips that were missing from the first one. I haven't tried it yet, but I already told them no big deal if it doesn't work. There are apparently a ton of these flooding the surplus market right now, and I've got another coming from another source (for less than this one cost), so I'm as happy as a pig in shiwhroishafowehfofhaew;fhawef -doug q From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 29 12:50:09 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: Message-ID: <20000629174505.1162.qmail@hotmail.com> A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are cooler than a raised floor :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rachor" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:25 PM Subject: RE: Your dream computer room. > OK... If you want to dream.... > Lets put it on the moon so all that stuff is easier to lug around. > > Oh .. Serious dreams... that is different. > > I think I see two classes of rooms here with their own unique > requirements. > > 1. Microcomputer room.... No special power, floor, or environmental > requirments > > 2. Big Iron room. Raised floor, 220Volt power, Big Aircon, and somebody > real generous to pay the power bill. > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. > > > Hell, why not my own substation? > > > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > > own fuel for future use! > > > > Hey, the original post did say "Dream", didn't it? > > > > 8D > > > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 12:46:54 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701bfe1f2$05dedc90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Zane > I'm not sure what the colours you pasted... This is a one line web page you can create and view locally. > ...looked like, but this sounds more like Nicotine > discolouration from being around a cigarette smoker. Possibly. It did smell a hell of alot like paint when it came off, but showed no dropletting patterns (was as even as the original finish), tended to be on the top surfaces (as if from Sun or a precipitation) didn't look smoky or carbon-like, didn't smell like cigarette Smoke at least. Does this sound like Nicotine? My guess if it wasn't sunburn is perhaps a fine oil from some kind of manufacturing, it really bound on to that plastic. John A. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 29 12:53:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED2@TEGNTSERVER> (message from Douglas Quebbeman on Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:14:20 -0400) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000629175300.26272.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old > "stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Live alone? How can you bear not to be surrounded by old computers? :-) From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 29 12:56:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <20000629174505.1162.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A > big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are > cooler than a raised floor :) You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 29 13:12:24 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Old house had overhead wire without the raceway... We spent some bucks on the house house and Buried Cat 5, telephone, and Video within most walls of the structure. The bet is on to see how long it takes to need more wire strung. I'm hoping this is measured in months or years and not days or weeks. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A > > big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are > > cooler than a raised floor :) > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From transit at lerctr.org Thu Jun 29 13:20:55 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Acquiring, playing with, and living with classic computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, let's see: Right now I have the following * Dining room table (Computer Lab): A Mac LC II, a Mac LC III, an Amiga 2000, a Commodore 128D, and a Coco 3. All work * Studio (bedroom table): An Apple IIe (connected to an AlphaSyntauri synthesizer), an Amiga 1000 with 2 Mb memory expansion, and a TI99/4A, with Corcomp disk drive/rs232/32k expansion. All work. * Electronics lab (bedroom desk): An Atari 800 (works, but dodgy keyboard), a Commodore 128 (works), and a Coco2 (works). Also a TRS80 Model 100 (works) * Storage (closet): An Apple IIe (works, just no really good place to put it), 2 Dell 486s (both work), a BBC Model B (I think it works, but may have been damaged in a flood, haven't tested it), a Leading Edge Model D (works), a no-name 286 (works) and a no-name 8088 PC (no longer boots from the hard drive). Also some odd bits here and there (a Matell Aquarius, a Spectravideo 128, and a NEC something-or-other... don't know if any of those work) Most of this stuff I got from the local swap meets (TRW in Redondo Beach and the like). Occasionally I'll get lucky at a thrift shop, but not often (mostly broken 286's they want too much for) I've bought stuff on Ebay and usenet, although shipping (especially CPU's and heavy stuff) is expensive and can be problematic. I tend to prefer using them for small peripherals and software items. I don't really spend all that much...maybe up to $20/cpu at a swap meet, Ebay, etc. A lot of stuff I've even got for free, or just for shipping costs. Time to play with all this stuff: Is not in abundance. I have a long commute and very little home time, which must be divided among other pursuits (music, ham radio, etc.) So right now, I'm more in acquisition mode, looking for peripherals and software for these machines. Currently, I am unmarried and live alone, so no need to worry about what other people might think. My folks thought I was wierd for collecting all these old machines....but now they collect old Macs! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 13:22:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED5@TEGNTSERVER> > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass > > room dividers. A big control room like in wargames. And > > I think overhead wiring raceways are cooler than a raised floor :) > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? Oh, they're great if you like your cables getting sliced up as you pull them through; pulling the raceway tops off (the alternative) is no fun either. -dq From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 13:23:46 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001c01bfe1f7$29916770$350810ac@chipware.com> Here's something I dreamed up a while ago: A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain driven circular elevator. I got the idea from some pictures of a car parking facility. The shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart which could then take it to a workstation where it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of clearance between shelves and the whole system being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, demo or work on. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 29 13:28:41 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: RE: Your dream computer room. (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED5@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <14683.38233.544796.553439@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 29, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass > > > room dividers. A big control room like in wargames. And > > > I think overhead wiring raceways are cooler than a raised floor :) > > > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > Oh, they're great if you like your cables getting sliced > up as you pull them through; pulling the raceway tops off > (the alternative) is no fun either. I work with them every day and don't have such problems. I rather like 'em. The ones I use are made by Newton...might wanna check 'em out. -Dave McGuire From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 13:47:39 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED7@TEGNTSERVER> > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > some pictures of a car parking facility. The > shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart > which could then take it to a workstation where > it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of > clearance between shelves and the whole system > being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) > so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, > demo or work on. Sounds just like a White Data Systems Vertical Carousel... never got to work with one of those, but I wrote lots of code to move the WDS Horizontal Carousels back in the 80s... -doug q From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 29 13:54:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: References: <20000629174505.1162.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000629114020.027e3d50@208.226.86.10> Pretty topical subject, and much nicer than some. :-) I live in California and one of the things builders never seem to do here is build basements. Sure, there is the occasional one, but they are quite rare. Given the astronomical price of housing (we have some new houses being built at the end of our street) they _still_ don't put in a basement but have "zero lot line" setbacks where the house basically fills the lot. Weird. Anyway, my "dream" room starts with me putting in a full basement. One of the questions I haven't answered yet is if setback rules apply to underground structures (can I build a basement the size of my lot and then cover it up and put the house on top of it?) I know I could dig a basement that had the same outline as the outside of the house. That's probably close to 1400 sq'. I would divide this into three rooms (actually four if you count the replaced garage that would be twice as deep as the current garage making it a "four car" garage rather than a three car garage. There would be a library with "folding" stacks (to hold lots of books), an office to hold workstations and terminals (hopefully a bit more quiet than having a PDP-8/E howling at you :-) and a Machine room with the new 'semi' raised floor (4" height) +------------+-------------------+ | | | | | | | | Library | | M | | | A | | | C +------- ---------+ | H | Garage/Shop area | I | N | E | | +------ ----------+ | R | | | O | | | O | Office | | M | | | | | +------------+-------------------+ The driveway would slope down so it would be easy to get big iron "in" to this arrangement :-) [I'd love to get rid of it dear but I can't see how to get it out now :-)] --Chuck From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 29 12:39:26 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <200006290036.RAA14293@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Hi! > > Shoot, my first two VAXen were a VAXstation II/RC and MicroVAX II. I sure My first VAX was a MicroVAX II, and I would recommend it as the first machine. Well, my config just worked and I had nothing to fix, so that's an advantage, too, of course. But I was (and still am) pretty happy with this machine. > wouldn't recommend either as first systems unless they're picked up for > free. If they're still running on MFM disks, you'll probably have a real > headache getting the system running. I love Q-Bus systems, but don't think What's so bad with MFM disks? My MVII is running 4x RD54, and it works just fine! > Um... I saw this on eBay yesterday, and as I read it, it's basically just > the CPU. I'm sorry, I do not consider this a good first system. I If you have to build around with the system, or you have to fix it first, than it's probably not a good choice. Bye, Freddy From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 29 13:46:46 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! > 2. Big Iron room. Raised floor, 220Volt power, Big Aircon, and somebody > real generous to pay the power bill. The thing with the power bill is a very important point. Just think you have your whole 1200 sq ft full with machines and they're running all the time. You will be in a nice surprise at the end of the year. Bye, Freddy From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 13:54:19 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED8@TEGNTSERVER> > > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > > > Oh, they're great if you like your cables getting sliced > > up as you pull them through; pulling the raceway tops off > > (the alternative) is no fun either. > > I work with them every day and don't have such problems. I rather > like 'em. The ones I use are made by Newton...might wanna check 'em > out. Ho Ho Ho! Last time I pulled cable (raceways amongst others) was in college... somebody else gets all the fun now. Not that I mind work, Hell, I love it, I can watch it all day! -dq From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 14:03:58 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01bfe1fc$c7c1ac70$350810ac@chipware.com> > The thing with the power bill is a very important point. > Just think you have your whole 1200 sq ft full with machines and they're > running all the time. You will be in a nice surprise at the end of the > year. Most US utilities bill on a monthly basis. Still, when I started this thread, I intended a "money is no object", "you've just won the lottery", "blue sky" attitude. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 12:32:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 28, 0 04:42:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/1d50367c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 13:01:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 28, 0 09:43:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 948 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/3efb0841/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 13:18:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC2@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 29, 0 07:46:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1852 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/89373717/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 13:22:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAECE@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 29, 0 12:06:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/1a587829/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 12:57:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <003101bfe167$77e5c050$6d64c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Jun 28, 0 08:52:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/d2512300/attachment.ksh From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Jun 29 14:21:17 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > The other is the 11/730. Small, slow, but there are only 2 ASICs (Memory > ECC gate arrays IIRC). The rest is AMD bit-slice, PALs, and simple chips. > Would the 11/725 also be a good/equivalent choice? My (possibly flawed) understanding is that the 725 is basically a 730 squeezed into a BA123-style "end-table" box (about the size of a Perq T2 or so). --Pat. From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 14:26:11 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED7@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <001e01bfe1ff$e1d49a20$350810ac@chipware.com> > > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > > some pictures of a car parking facility. The > > shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart > > which could then take it to a workstation where > > it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of > > clearance between shelves and the whole system > > being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) > > so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, > > demo or work on. > > Sounds just like a White Data Systems Vertical > Carousel... never got to work with one of those, > but I wrote lots of code to move the WDS Horizontal > Carousels back in the 80s... Sigh... Never imagine that you've had an original idea. Well, when I get rich, I won't have to build it from scratch. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 14:42:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> > 8088 CPU clocked at 5MHz > > 128k DRAM on the motherboard > > 4 expansion slots, 50 pins each > > 3 6522 VIAs on the motherboard, for system control functions, the > Printer/GPIB port and the user port > > Sound I/O using a 6852 and a CODEC chip > > A strange video system. There's 2K*16 bits of video RAM, with a 6845 CRT > controller to address it. The output of that partially provides the video > attributes (intensified, etc). But 11 bits are fed to the address lines > of the main DRAM array. This DRAM acts as the character generator and > stores the bitmap patters for the characters. Note that as there are > 2000 characters on an 80*24 screen and 11 bits gives 2048 different > values, it's possible to have a different 'character' displayed at each > screen location, thus allowing a bitmapped display. FWIW, the UK Apricot > computer has a similar video system IIRC, the Victor 9000 was designed by Chuck Peddle, the architect of the 6502 (or maybe it was the 6500) processor. This might account for the Motorola/Mostek chip usage. > 2 full-height 5.25" floppy drives on the front. These are Tandon > mechanims without their logic boards. They're linked to a controller > board that uses essentially the same GCR encoder/decoder as the Commodore > 8050, etc. The drives are variable speed units (!) with an 8048 on the > floppy controller board to control the speed. Thes means the machine > manages to get 500K on a single-sided 80 track floppy disk Not only were they GCR recorded (and I'll probably get this backwards), the drives were run in a Constant Linear Velocity mode, rather than the Constant Angular Velocity mode used by most drives. IIRC, the Mac 400k drives, were also CLV , but weren't GCR. IIRC, later models used some more compatible scheme; speaking of compatibilty, there were two variants of Microsoft BASIC available, one which was either generic or Victor-specific, and another that was IBM compatible. > Software control of the brightness and contrast of the (monochrome) > monitor using 3-bit resistor ladder DACs hung off the system VIA. > > Does that sound like a Victor 9000? Oh, yeah, that's it. The thing I remember most is that the Developer's kit the owner had came with PMATE: Phoenix-Mike Aronson's Text Editor. I pirated it, then when I went to my next fulltime job, they had the CP/M version, which was configurable (using PMATE macros) for different video systems or terminals, so I was able to combine the parts to get a version working on a PC when I went to the _next_ job. Which I used for about 6 months, then I bought a licensed copy, which I still use as my preferred editor to this day. For those that are unfamiliar with PMATE, it's more or less TECO with an incremental redisplay grafted on to it. In other words, EMACS without the LISP. Not quite, but a reasonable comparison. Anybody know anything abut Mike Aronson? Nobody at Phoenix can tell me *anything* about PMATE, and it would be nice to have the source code so I could fix some bugs. -doug q From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 29 14:00:08 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: Bleach seems to have "some" effect, but nothing I have tried, and I have tried a long list, has "removed" a yellow sun stain. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 29 14:54:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001c01bfe1f7$29916770$350810ac@chipware.com> References: Message-ID: Generally a couple good outlets (AC and 10bt), some banquet tables, a standing bench height work surface, and a rolling cart make a good start. I don't think I am really going to be happy until I have pallet racks and a forklift though. A typical "industrial" unit, 20x50, with A/C office in front, warehouse in back, with maybe a small fenced "yard" for a truck. The basic problem I have is congestion, buying a load of stuff, and its temporary storage and sorting area spills over into my "working" area until I can't do any testing until moving something, which needs to be moved back. Eventually it reaches a crisis, like now, where my efficiency is reduced to about zip due to all the shifting around. At present our 1850 sq ft condo has; Great garage, full two car sized with a 14 foot ceiling. Just above the garage door and extending completely across the front is a "shelf" about 6 foot deep with 4 to 5 feet open above it (22x6x4.5= 594 ft3). Thats for all my bulky, but not too heavy stuff (the shelf could take a load, but like heck I am going to carry it all up a ladder). 18" deep, 6 and 8 foot RapidRack shelves line the right wall (using the orientation of a parked car). At the nose end are the big shelves, 24"x96"x108", 42"x48"x96", and 36"x48"x72" with one shelf as a standing bench and the shelf above it 12" deep for some test monitors etc. About 75 computers and the bulk of all my misc and parts, with maybe a dozen 20 inch monitors. Poor house, zero computers in master bedroom, or any of the bathrooms. Huge livingroom, maybe 30 computers and 8 monitors in various corners and couches. Kitchen table, 3 on top, 5 under, various compact macs "around". LOTS of books, thousands in the library on shelves, but hundreds in various bags, boxes, and piles. My office is more buried in paper than hardware, but it has a bit of hardware in it too. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 15:06:40 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing Message-ID: <20000629200640.23880.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pat Barron wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The other is the 11/730. Small, slow, but there are only 2 ASICs (Memory > > ECC gate arrays IIRC). The rest is AMD bit-slice, PALs, and simple chips. > > > > Would the 11/725 also be a good/equivalent choice? My (possibly flawed) > understanding is that the 725 is basically a 730 squeezed into a > BA123-style "end-table" box (about the size of a Perq T2 or so). Right... identical CPU, no provisions for external expansion (but you _can_ squeeze a Unibus cable out it if you're careful), RC25 disks - fun but a pain - one motor with two disks; one removable, one fixed, 25Mb each. I used to have an RC25 cart with VMS 5.0 on it, so I know it fits, but I lost it and the machine when the business it was resting at closed with so little warning that I couldn't get it out. :-P The 11/725 case is a bit larger than a BA-123, but the aspect ratio is similar. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 29 15:12:58 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: Message-ID: <20000629200753.58736.qmail@hotmail.com> Yes I do. Daily. Maybe you're thinking of a different kind, these are open-air raceways, more like a trussle, they are suspended from the ceiling by about a foot, you can see each cable, and we keep them color-coded so you know which one is going where. It's nice, and looks like something from a villan's lair in a bond movie. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: Re: Your dream computer room. > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A > > big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are > > cooler than a raised floor :) > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 15:14:20 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Frederik Meerwaldt" at Jun 29, 2000 07:39:26 PM Message-ID: <200006292014.NAA24073@shell1.aracnet.com> > What's so bad with MFM disks? My MVII is running 4x RD54, and it works > just fine! It's been my experience that most of the machines of that era that turn up have RD53's, not RD54's. Yes, I know there are a couple people on this list that will probably say that RD53's aren't that bad, but I've got to disagree, especially for a started machine. Plus if the machine has SCSI, it's easier to get a CD-ROM hooked up so the person starting can use the Hobbyist CD. Just for the record. Yes, I hate MFM drives, the the only DEC system I still use them on is a Pro380. My PDP-11/73 is most definitely SCSI! When I've got the space to set up a couple more MVII class systems they'll either be running with SCSI or ESDI. The MV3 is running with RA72's and RA73's. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 15:16:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 29, 2000 06:32:54 PM Message-ID: <200006292016.NAA24335@shell1.aracnet.com> > For a hardware hacker like me, there are only 2 types of VAXen to run at > home. The first is the 11/780 (or 11/785, 11/782) if you've got the > space. It's all chips that I can understand. But they're too large to > fit in my machine room at the moment. > > The other is the 11/730. Small, slow, but there are only 2 ASICs (Memory > ECC gate arrays IIRC). The rest is AMD bit-slice, PALs, and simple chips. > > -tony I'd think a 11/725 would be right up your alley then :^) Isn't it just a tiny 11/730? Except for the reliablity of the VAX-11/725 it looks like a very cool little machine (OK, so it's slow, hardly has any RAM, and can't run a modern OS). Zane From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Jun 29 15:24:44 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Can some HP people help this guy? Message-ID: <395B6A3C.21902.1634D79@localhost> This came in to me but I can't really help him at the moment. I know some of you HP collectors might be able to help. Contact him at the address below. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:55:06 -0400 From: "Richard Rochester" My company has been using an HP9836 to do calculations for a gear shaver sharpening machine. It can no longer be booted up because the main 5.25 drive will no longer read the disk. Do you know of any sources for these machines or parts? We were thinking that we might even be able to rig an external drive that would enable the machine to boot up. I'd appreciate any information you have on the subject. Thanks. Rich Rochester rrochester@getragusa.com ------- End of forwarded message ------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 29 15:24:56 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> (message from Douglas Quebbeman on Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:42:20 -0400) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000629202456.28135.qmail@brouhaha.com> > IIRC, the Victor 9000 was designed by Chuck Peddle, the > architect of the 6502 (or maybe it was the 6500) processor. > This might account for the Motorola/Mostek chip usage. Mostek? Where does Mostek come into it? Perhaps you're thinking of MOS Technology, which is *entirely* different. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 14:29:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001c01bfe1f7$29916770$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > some pictures of a car parking facility. The > shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart > which could then take it to a workstation where > it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of > clearance between shelves and the whole system > being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) > so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, > demo or work on. Such contraptions are already in use in filing systems. I have one machine that stores a few hundred 8" floppy disks in the same manner (that Fred Cisin forced me to take :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 29 15:44:42 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") > is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too > aggressive). Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an artist who's into painting computers? :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 15:55:13 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bfe20c$53891180$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/countdown/video/chan12.jpg From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 15:55:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDF@TEGNTSERVER> > > IIRC, the Victor 9000 was designed by Chuck Peddle, the > > architect of the 6502 (or maybe it was the 6500) processor. > > This might account for the Motorola/Mostek chip usage. > > Mostek? Where does Mostek come into it? > > Perhaps you're thinking of MOS Technology, which is *entirely* > different. Yup, that's a brain fart that's plagued me since the 80s. -dq From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 16:01:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 29, 2000 04:44:42 PM Message-ID: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") > > is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too > > aggressive). > > Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were > sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black > backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, > unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my > collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an > artist who's into painting computers? :-) You know.... I don't know if you're jokeing or not, but.... That could be pretty cool :^) Maybe not for something like my PDP-11/44 mind you (although I kind of like that idea), but it would definitly be a cool idea for a large PC tower case :^) Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 29 16:08:39 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Setasi PEP70/HC43/HC45 cabling Message-ID: <20000629210839.28672.qmail@brouhaha.com> Does anyone here know anything about the Setasi PEP70 memory system for the PDP-11/70? I posted the question below to the PDP-11 list, and got no reply. :-( Eric Can anyone describe the correct cabling between the PEP70, HC43, and HC45 cards (Setasi's memory and cache-replacement cards for the PDP-11/70)? There are four connectors on the PEP70, and two each on the HC43 and HC45. It appears that the topmost PEP70 connector should be cabled to the second from the top on the HC45, and the second PEP70 to the topmost on the HC45. But I have no idea how the two cables between the PEP70 and HC43 should be wired. There would seem to be only two possibilities, but I am loathe to risk damaging anything by using trial and error. Thanks! Eric From r.stek at snet.net Thu Jun 29 16:18:13 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:23 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Your dream computer room. > > > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > > own fuel for future use! > > ... and control it with a ZX81. > There was a little know ZX-81 accessory for this purpose developed in England as an ASIC. It was known as the "fission chip." Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 16:17:52 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Dibs... In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <001f01bfe20f$7c0655c0$350810ac@chipware.com> I call dibs on ASCI White (when it's decommissioned) :) From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 16:28:46 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001bfe211$0227d6f0$350810ac@chipware.com> > > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > > > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > > > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > > > own fuel for future use! > > > > ... and control it with a ZX81. > > > There was a little know ZX-81 accessory for this purpose developed in > England as an ASIC. It was known as the "fission chip." Always delivered wrapped in today's copy of The Times. From r.stek at snet.net Thu Jun 29 16:39:37 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: I don't often make great finds around Hartford, but a local HS had a tag sale, and for $20 I came away with: 2 Mac Plus w/ 2 "long" and 3 "short" keyboards, 1 numeric keypad (less the ')' key), all working 3 matching 20 MB SCSI drives, also working 5 mice for same 1 Mac LC 3 Apple Keyboard II (1 cable, 2 kb's missing 1 key each, and only 1 ADB cord) 1 "limited Edition Woz" IIGS, working 2 Mac 12" RGB Displays, working 1 Apple composite color monitor for the IIGS, working 1 Apple IIe 2 Echo IIb boards & speakers 3 3.5" Apple drives, condition unknown 3 5" Apple drives, condition unknown 2 Heath-Zenith 8088's, from which I scavenged the 2 ST-225 drives (working), 1 working HD controller, 2 5" floppies condition unknown, 2 floppy controllers (ditto), I/O boards, AST combo board, the CPU's and memory chips. AND 1 IBM PC Portable - one of the floppies was not working, so I replaced it with a HD and WD controller from one of the Zeniths - works great! If I had half the space some of you describe, I could have had 20-30 IIe's, monitors, printers, and some 286 PC's. Of course, if I did that I would also have a second ex-wife! Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 29 16:54:36 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:15:47AM -0700 References: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000629145436.A1637@loomcom.com> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:15:47AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you > > graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll > > wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have > > no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or > > in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. > > That's such an old-school frame of mind, Dick. The world doesn't work > like that anymore. Old style thinking like that went out of fashion with > the 80s. > > This is the year 2000. Dinosaurs are extinct. I have to agree. As one who was VERY recently in the job market (as a Java programmer), I was stunned by how much has changed since I entered the working world. Basically, if you're warm, don't drool, and know how to pronounce "Serializable", you will be accepted graciously somewhere -- probably not at your dream job, and definitely not at as high a salary as someone who knows how describe the difference between a static inner class and an anonymous inner class, but you'll at least get a decent entry-level software development job somewhere, making good money. People are DESPERATE for manpower. You can wear jeans to your interview. You can have long hair. You can (as I did) drop out of college without fear of retribution. You can (as I did) have majored in something completely unrelated to computers. You don't even need references, really -- especially since a lot of companies are afraid to give references anymore (there have been lawsuits. If you give a good reference for a bad employee, the company that hired him might sue you. If you give a bad reference, regardless of whether the employee is good or bad, the employee might sue you. Sigh.) As long as you actually know what you're doing, you'll get a job. If you follow through, do your job well and demonstrate that you're intelligent, you'll work your way up to a senior level position in five years. Yes, five years is "Senior" here. It's really that scary. I don't suspect it'll stay this way forever, of course, but for now it's frighteningly simple to get into a computer job in Silicon Valley. I don't know how it is elsewhere in the country, but I suspect it's at least similar. > Sellam -Seth From dpp1 at prodigy.net Thu Jun 29 17:01:12 2000 From: dpp1 at prodigy.net (Dennis Phillips) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Dibs... References: <001f01bfe20f$7c0655c0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <001601bfe215$8b4f8be0$7426ff3f@oemcomputer> Can anyone please tell me how to get off this mail list? Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:17 PM Subject: Dibs... > I call dibs on ASCI White (when it's decommissioned) :) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 16:54:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at Jun 29, 0 03:21:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/867c6229/attachment.ksh From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Jun 29 22:52:42 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <002001bfe211$0227d6f0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: Hello Bill On 29-Jun-00, you wrote: >>>> Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and >>>> install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to >>>> have all the electricity you need plus generate your >>>> own fuel for future use! >>> >>> ... and control it with a ZX81. >>> >> There was a little know ZX-81 accessory for this purpose developed in >> England as an ASIC. It was known as the "fission chip." > > Always delivered wrapped in today's copy of The Times. Ewwwwwww another bad pun > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From james at megaeasy.com Thu Jun 29 17:00:58 2000 From: james at megaeasy.com (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000629170033.00cca5f0@mail.texoma.net> One ex-wife is all any of probably can afford. At 04:39 PM 06/29/2000, you wrote: >I don't often make great finds around Hartford, but a local HS had a tag >sale, and for $20 I came away with: > >2 Mac Plus w/ 2 "long" and 3 "short" keyboards, 1 numeric keypad (less the >')' key), all working >3 matching 20 MB SCSI drives, also working >5 mice for same >1 Mac LC >3 Apple Keyboard II (1 cable, 2 kb's missing 1 key each, and only 1 ADB >cord) >1 "limited Edition Woz" IIGS, working >2 Mac 12" RGB Displays, working >1 Apple composite color monitor for the IIGS, working >1 Apple IIe >2 Echo IIb boards & speakers >3 3.5" Apple drives, condition unknown >3 5" Apple drives, condition unknown >2 Heath-Zenith 8088's, from which I scavenged the 2 ST-225 drives (working), >1 working HD controller, 2 5" floppies condition unknown, 2 floppy >controllers (ditto), I/O boards, AST combo board, the CPU's and memory >chips. > AND >1 IBM PC Portable - one of the floppies was not working, so I replaced it >with a HD and WD controller from one of the Zeniths - works great! > >If I had half the space some of you describe, I could have had 20-30 IIe's, >monitors, printers, and some 286 PC's. Of course, if I did that I would >also have a second ex-wife! > >Bob Stek >Saver of Lost SOLs > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 29 17:12:37 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. - disk storage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > Such contraptions are already in use in filing systems. I have one > machine that stores a few hundred 8" floppy disks in the same manner (that > Fred Cisin forced me to take :) Sorry, folks, I only had the one. It was a giant contraption made by Diebold (they make cabinets for banks, ATM machines, etc.) BTW, Urban Ore (the retail outlet of the Berkeley dump) has a 4 drawer fireproof file cabinet with three drawers configured for 5.25" floppies; but the top drawer is mangled (by somebody without appropriate skills opening it without a key) Did anyone mention the essential item of a good truck loading dock? Rail siding? Cargo landing strip? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 29 17:34:42 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Re: Getting into VAXing (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <14683.52994.534613.972618@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 29, Tony Duell wrote: > It's essentially the same CPU, packed into a different case, and with an > RC25 disk drive. I am told the latter is a nightmare which headcrashes if > you look at it wrongly, but anyway..... At a former place of employment, there was a legend of one of those blasted RC25 drives crashing because someone farted. Apparently, the guy was sitting on one of those notorious un-padded wooden chairs which was on the raised floor right next to the machine (an 11/725) containing the drive. He ate lunch at the Mexican restaurant across the street. Apparently his output produced just enough vibration at just the right frequency to cause the head to hit the media during a spinup. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 17:02:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 29, 0 03:42:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/9e634cc0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 17:12:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Can some HP people help this guy? (HP9836) In-Reply-To: <395B6A3C.21902.1634D79@localhost> from "David Williams" at Jun 29, 0 03:24:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1625 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/c605056c/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 29 17:20:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:09 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing Message-ID: <004001bfe21b$578c4c70$6e64c0d0@ajp166> For the original topic... For those getting into VAX based machines a smaller VAX like a VS2000, VS3100 or maybe a complete MicroVax-II, MV-III, 11/730 or even 11/750 is a good starting point and an easy admission. Once you're comfortable and DECified with that then something more massive or complex to get going is reasonable. Also from a perfomance standpoint the smaller VAXen can be impressive. I can hear the crowd... 11/730 or 750s are physically larger but if complete they are otherwise ver manageable for power and cooling. Also unlike the larger 78x and 85xx series the 730s and 750s are fairly common, well known and can often be had for the effort of moving it. Allison From dpp1 at prodigy.net Thu Jun 29 18:39:35 2000 From: dpp1 at prodigy.net (Dennis Phillips) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. - disk storage References: Message-ID: <002001bfe223$4951e5e0$2a27ff3f@oemcomputer> Can someone tell me how to get off of this mail list? thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 3:12 PM Subject: RE: Your dream computer room. - disk storage > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > > > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > > > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > > Such contraptions are already in use in filing systems. I have one > > machine that stores a few hundred 8" floppy disks in the same manner (that > > Fred Cisin forced me to take :) > > Sorry, folks, I only had the one. It was a giant contraption made by > Diebold (they make cabinets for banks, ATM machines, etc.) > > BTW, Urban Ore (the retail outlet of the Berkeley dump) has a 4 drawer > fireproof file cabinet with three drawers configured for 5.25" floppies; > but the top drawer is mangled (by somebody without appropriate skills > opening it without a key) > > > Did anyone mention the essential item of a good truck loading dock? > Rail siding? > Cargo landing strip? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 29 19:29:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <14683.52994.534613.972618@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Getting into VAXing (Tony Duell) Message-ID: >On June 29, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's essentially the same CPU, packed into a different case, and with an >> RC25 disk drive. I am told the latter is a nightmare which headcrashes if >> you look at it wrongly, but anyway..... > > At a former place of employment, there was a legend of one of those >blasted RC25 drives crashing because someone farted. Yeah yeah, and then theres the poor kid who pulled his dads finger just before the earthquake... From ss at allegro.com Thu Jun 29 19:32:52 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: <200006281859.LAA01324@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <395B8844.7631.AD18AC8@localhost> Re: > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal ... > Find a way to stay in school. Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! One non-college grad here said he finds that after about 5 years of experience, most places don't care that he didn't have a degree. (He also said that the places that cared the most were the ones he least wanted to work at: large companies.) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 19:04:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. - disk storage In-Reply-To: <002001bfe223$4951e5e0$2a27ff3f@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Dennis Phillips wrote: > Can someone tell me how to get off of this mail list? For the mailing list savvy impaired (whatever): Send a message to and in the body of the message put: unsubscribe classiccmp Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 19:07:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: <395B8844.7631.AD18AC8@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > ... > > Find a way to stay in school. > > Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), > and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have > college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! Aw, this is all hooey. If you do go to college, study cool stuff like philosophy, literature, the physical sciences, psychology, math... And of course party a lot and chase after your prefered sex. If you're intelligent enough, everything else will fall into place. If not, well, I guess get a degree then ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From vaxman at uswest.net Thu Jun 29 20:12:34 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >On June 29, Tony Duell wrote: > >> It's essentially the same CPU, packed into a different case, and with an > >> RC25 disk drive. I am told the latter is a nightmare which headcrashes if > >> you look at it wrongly, but anyway..... > > > > At a former place of employment, there was a legend of one of those > >blasted RC25 drives crashing because someone farted. > > Yeah yeah, and then theres the poor kid who pulled his dads finger just > before the earthquake... > A buddy of mine was in the clean room of a disk drive manufacture (to remain nameless). Being the joker he is, he farted next to the particle counter that kept track of the general level of cleanliness of the room HDAs were being manufactured. It took several hours to convince management not to shut the line down and completely clean the room (basically you have to wipe EVERY surface, item, tool in the room with a cleaning solution and lint free cloths). I still don't trust XT-2190s. clint From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 29 21:21:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The problem with (1970's) IBM machines as against similar vintage DEC > machines is that the IBM machines have a lot less 'hacker' documentation > available. For some IBM systems it can even be hard to get the binary > opcode list, something that DEC have been known to stick in the > advertising flyer. > > DEC machines generally had at least schematics and a technical manual > available. And most of the components were off-the-shelf. This, alas, > doesn't apply to IBM machines. Certainly many of the old IBMs could be hacked with (if the shop would let 'em - probably more of an issue!). The only machine I can think of that was really a mystery back then was the S/38, because it was so high level (S/38s somewhat mutated into the AS/400 family). Lots of information - enough to do some darn cool hacks - was commonly available for the S/360 and S/370, S/3, S/32,34,36, and S/1 (basically most of the biggies of the 70s and 80s). Hardware and maintenance docs for the old systems used to be very locked up, but not anymore. Many of the machines that are popping up these days have the set of Big Blue Binders with them, as apparently IBM is not taking them back anymore (or is not too careful about it). Once the rhyme and reason is solved behind the organization of the maintenance libraries, the machines get described in minute detail - actually far better than DEC docs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 29 21:33:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > You know.... I don't know if you're jokeing or not, but.... That could be > pretty cool :^) Maybe not for something like my PDP-11/44 mind you > (although I kind of like that idea), but it would definitly be a cool idea > for a large PC tower case :^) Actually, I was serious. :-) ...after all, my PDP-8/e is already has a black case. I sort of hate to paint my 11/73's rack or the front panels of my 11/44 or RL02s, however, can't we somehow coat these things with something removeable that we can paint? :-) After all all those flourescent mythical designs on black backgrounds in a room with black lighting would look neat with the blinking lights on front panels. Has anyone here done anything like this? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ss at allegro.com Thu Jun 29 21:36:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 Message-ID: <395BA548.10263.6B4878@localhost> Hi, I got my Lexmark Lexbook MB10 going finally (had to determine the polarity of the A/C input). A couple of pictures are at: http://www.allegro.com/people/sieler/lexbook/ I mention this only because there seems to be no other information on the web about this machine. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 29 22:09:51 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <200006300309.XAA14774@world.std.com> >> We had an agreement that if anything new came in, >> something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little >> while. >I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old >"stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Whoops... :-) Megan From elvey at hal.com Thu Jun 29 23:45:45 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > Re: > > > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > > ... > > > Find a way to stay in school. > > > > Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), > > and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have > > college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! > > Aw, this is all hooey. If you do go to college, study cool stuff like > philosophy, literature, the physical sciences, psychology, math... And of > course party a lot and chase after your prefered sex. Hi I guess I'd have to put more emphasis of taking courses that you thought mattered over getting the degree. I don't know if I'd choose the same things that Sellam would choose but then he isn't me and I'm not him. I think he would still choose the right things because he felt they were right and not because some idiot consoler thought they were right. I should have noted that although I take extension courses, I don't take them for credit. I'm not there for a A or a C. I'm there for the understanding that I feel will make me better able to deal with the things I come across. I know when I am making progress or not, the grade doesn't. That is why it is important to realize that the things that are right for Sellam may not be right for me. I wouldn't tell him what was right for him but I might show him the path that I found. The point is, don't stay in college for the degree. It does have some value but if that is the only reason you are staying there, it isn't a good enough reason. It may get you a job, that you may not have even been interviewed for otherwise but you are not likely to stay at that job for long. One of two things will happen. You will either realize that isn't what you wanted or your employer will realize that you were not what they wanted. Don't stay in college because I told you so. I just think that you are missing the real reason for being there. I just suggest that you look for that reason before you make other judgments. If you treat college like a chance to look into those thing that you feel will expand yourself, you can't loose. The rewords of learning go way beyond monetary gains. Find what knowledge you are looking for in college and take course towards that goal. If you happen to get a degree along the way, OK fine. If not, you still have the knowledge. Just an opinion and most have one. Dwight From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 23:15:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 In-Reply-To: <395BA548.10263.6B4878@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > I got my Lexmark Lexbook MB10 going finally (had to > determine the polarity of the A/C input). A couple > of pictures are at: > http://www.allegro.com/people/sieler/lexbook/ > > I mention this only because there seems to be no other > information on the web about this machine. Stan, are you sure this runs on an 8088, as your web page says? That's way behind the times for 1994. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Jun 30 02:04:56 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: TU58-K DECTAPE IIs available Message-ID: <20000630020456.J10437@mrbill.net> I've got a box of five TU58-K DECTAPE IIs available, if someone has a need for them and has something to swap in return (I'm not lookin for much) let me know. Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 30 03:36:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: College References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <004b01bfe26e$54be49a0$0400c0a8@winbook> >From what I get from various colleagues, there are plenty of applications to process every week for these not-too-clever personnel types to process. Any way they can cut their workload, from, say 250 resumes per week to 25 will work just fine. One way is to toss the ones that have something that jumps out at you, like gaps in employment ("well, gee, I won the lottery and took a long trip . . .") unconventional timing in things like when you went to school, lots of changes in school, major, employment, location, etc, all get the paperwork out of the pile. They claim they can't get qualified people . . . What's really going on is that they can't get qualified people to work for peanuts. They look at a resume that's out of the ordinary in some non-desirable way, they become afraid to take a risk. You may be really good, but they're afraid to go out on a limb. It's easier to hire some fellow from Bangladesh who'll live in a 1 BR apartment with 5 others and write 1000 lines of bug-free C++ a week for $35K per year. Nope . . . better to make the ol' resume' look like it's right down the middle. If you do go into the Peace Corps, you'd best leave that off the resume', else the personnel guy will be too intimidated to confront you about salary, etc. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:45 PM Subject: OT: College > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > > > Re: > > > > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > > > ... > > > > Find a way to stay in school. > > > > > > Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), > > > and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have > > > college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! > > > > Aw, this is all hooey. If you do go to college, study cool stuff like > > philosophy, literature, the physical sciences, psychology, math... And of > > course party a lot and chase after your prefered sex. > > Hi > I guess I'd have to put more emphasis of taking courses that > you thought mattered over getting the degree. I don't know if > I'd choose the same things that Sellam would choose but then > he isn't me and I'm not him. I think he would still choose the > right things because he felt they were right and not because some > idiot consoler thought they were right. > I should have noted that although I take extension courses, I > don't take them for credit. I'm not there for a A or a C. I'm > there for the understanding that I feel will make me better able > to deal with the things I come across. I know when I am making > progress or not, the grade doesn't. That is why it is important > to realize that the things that are right for Sellam may not > be right for me. I wouldn't tell him what was right for him > but I might show him the path that I found. > The point is, don't stay in college for the degree. It does > have some value but if that is the only reason you are staying > there, it isn't a good enough reason. It may get you a job, > that you may not have even been interviewed for otherwise but you are > not likely to stay at that job for long. One of two things will happen. > You will either realize that isn't what you wanted or your employer > will realize that you were not what they wanted. > Don't stay in college because I told you so. I just think that > you are missing the real reason for being there. I just suggest > that you look for that reason before you make other judgments. > If you treat college like a chance to look into those thing that > you feel will expand yourself, you can't loose. The rewords > of learning go way beyond monetary gains. > Find what knowledge you are looking for in college and take course > towards that goal. If you happen to get a degree along the way, > OK fine. If not, you still have the knowledge. > Just an opinion and most have one. > Dwight > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 04:26:06 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <004b01bfe26e$54be49a0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: Foo with all this sideways thinking on college, not college, etc. How do you get a "good" job, not just money, but something you like etc.? Why throw around a lot of resume's, then act like a fish and hope you get caught by a nice fisherman. Turn the experience around and find places YOU want to work at, then find a way to work there. The hard part is figuring out which is the good place, getting the job more a matter of determination and effort. I've been working for about 35 years, and I still don't have a good picture of what I want to do when I grow up. I do have a good idea of what the company would be like though. Number one factor is the person in charge, do they do their job, ie manage and let you engineer? From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:05:18 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:22:35 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > ... and control it with a ZX81. > > [I believe that one of the suggested possible uses of the ZX81 (or maybe > the ZX80) in the early adverts _was_ controlling a > nuclear power station. Yes, I remember that ad. > Fortunately, none were ever used for this.] Are you *sure* about that, Tony? You see, I've heard that the Compukit UK101 (clone of the Ohio Scientific Superboard) was very popular at Oldbury nuclear power station because it was cheap enough to buy without getting lots of paperwork signed. So, at least some UK101s were being bought by engineers at Oldbury, but what they used them for, well, who knows? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:08:40 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:18:41 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > The machine sold in the UK as the 'Sirius' seems to be the same machine s > the US Victor 9000 (although I've never seen the latter). As far as I know, they are the same machine, different badge. ... > 3 6522 VIAs on the motherboard, for system control functions, the > Printer/GPIB port and the user port > Sound I/O using a 6852 and a CODEC chip > A strange video system. There's 2K*16 bits of video RAM, with a 6845 CRT The Sirius was designed by Chuck Peddle, who also designed the PET and the 6502. One of the early demo programs showed a bit-mapped image of him on the screen of the Sirius. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:11:30 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:54:54 -0700 Mike Ford wrote: > Generally a couple good outlets (AC and 10bt) Do you mean 10-base-T? Telephone wire? Surely not! Any proper machine room needs lots of thick yellow EtherHose and vampire taps! :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:16:59 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:44:42 -0400 (EDT) "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were > sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black > backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, > unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my > collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an > artist who's into painting computers? :-) I'm no artist, but I often paint my computers black. Nothing really rare/classic, you understand, unless you count an Atari ST (also added some INMOS transputer links to that one). Ordinary beige PC cases and disk drives are much improved by the addition of some black paint, Allen bolts, keyswitches, flashing lights (Ethernet Tx/Rx), and a reset button with a clear plastic flip-top protective cover. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 05:42:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Do you mean 10-base-T? Telephone wire? > >Surely not! Any proper machine room needs lots of thick >yellow EtherHose and vampire taps! :-) Let me know if you need some, I've got them new in the box. OTOH feel free to stop by and let my wife bonk you with a frying pan (she did enough install work to be very good at picking the wire splinters out of her fingers and the coax). No charge for bonking on the head lessons, minor costs for actual vampire taps. BTW I may end up with thin coax, just more practical in this case and I have plenty. Any reasonable link to a backup/restore server is fine. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 30 07:17:15 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: RE: Your dream computer room." (Jun 30, 11:11) References: Message-ID: <10006301317.ZM5044@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 30, 11:11, John Honniball wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:54:54 -0700 Mike Ford > wrote: > > Generally a couple good outlets (AC and 10bt) > > Do you mean 10-base-T? Telephone wire? > > Surely not! Any proper machine room needs lots of thick > yellow EtherHose and vampire taps! :-) The new cables and fittings in mine are a mixture of Cat 5e and Cat 6, but I'm keeping the proper yellow stuff and the blue drops. I suspect the microVax would be offended otherwise :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 30 08:42:21 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, John Honniball wrote: > I remember this! Only vaguely, though. It was indeed a > multi-tasking version of MS-DOS, supplied by Microsoft to a > UK computer company. Interestingly, Microsoft bought^H^H^H^H^H^H hired the chap who wrote Wendin DOS. I wonder if there's a connection. Has anyone else here used WendinDOS, that multi-tasking MS-DOS-like software - that also could pretend to be VMS or UNIX - what allowed one to attach multiple terminals to an 8088 PC? Also, does anyone remember playing with VMiX (another multi-tasking, multi-process, program that one ran from MS-DOS)? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 30 09:28:06 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: Maybe I am lucky or my SO is special but we have come to an equilibrium. She has a few pieces of sailing and tennis equipment scattered around the property and I have lots of computer stuff. Last week she was looking for the lawn swings and looked in the attic of the garage. Her first question was "Where did all of that stuff come from?" Luckily I could "honestly" answer that many of the boxes were empty waiting to ship stuff. I seem to collect really good quality computer/medical equipment shipping boxes. It's much easier to send somebody a computer if it's packed right. She has never looked in the little travel trailer which we haven't used in years. Currently full of cables and old tape stuff. I can always point to her tennis racquet stringing machine in the rec room and sails hanging in the garage. I firmly believe and we have discussed this that a computer hobby is a lot cheaper than all of the people around here who go to the gambling boats, football/baseball games, golf, or out at the bars every night. Besides I'm usually not drinking, loosing money, or chasing women just out in the garage fiddling with the computers. The skills from this hobby also means that I can usually fix a dead phone, rewire broken mixer cord, replace furnace fan motor, fix plumbing, fiddle with electrical/electronic devices, take a VCR apart and sometimes even get it back together and working. I have an old house which means all these skills are survival skills. I also get called by neighbors to look at their computers and this nets me a few old machines/components. Mike My thoughts right now, nobody else's. mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 30 09:39:58 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room Message-ID: I'd like a detached small building with the following. 1. a raised tile floor, 2. anachoic tile on the walls and ceiling, kind of like egg shell foam which absorbs noise. 3. 4 plex power boxes under every other tile 4. Non fluorescent lighting 5. air-conditioning through the floor 6. 1 window overlooking the lake 7. Separate shop area 8. Separate storage area with steel shelves accessible from front and back 9. Loading dock area 10. workbench with power strip along entire front edge 11. Small van to haul/pickup stuff When I was growing up on the farm we had outbuildings for everything. Chicken coop, granery, tool shed, pump house, shop, garage, dog house, and a barn. Seemed to keep stuff located somewhat together. Mike Dreaming not working mmcfadden@cmh.edu From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jun 29 23:23:24 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000629212324.006c3364@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:01 PM 6/29/00 -0700, Zane Healy wrote: >R. D. Davis wrote: >> On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: >> > Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") >> > is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too >> > aggressive). >> >> Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were >> sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black >> backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, >> unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my >> collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an >> artist who's into painting computers? :-) > >You know.... I don't know if you're jokeing or not, but.... That could be >pretty cool :^) Maybe not for something like my PDP-11/44 mind you >(although I kind of like that idea), but it would definitly be a cool idea >for a large PC tower case :^) Keeping in mind, that (at least in the past) if you paid IBM enough, you could get a mainframe done in just about any color scheme that you wanted. I have to think that the wildest one that I personally experienced, was at a Ralston Purina (feed) plant. And yes, as you might guess (or fear) the entire system was painted in red and white checkerboard. -jim From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 30 09:56:46 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My advice for getting a good job (especially if you have a "non-traditional" background, as I do - I don't have a degree either): Network, network, network. Get aquainted with people in the industry you want to work in - lots of people. Make yourself, and your skills, known. I've only had a few jobs since I bailed out of school. In each of my jobs, the manager hiring for the position had already knew who I was, and had decided they wanted me before I even interviewed, and before they ever saw a resume. In each case, the interview was just to make sure I wasn't a total loon, and the resume was just a formality (I never even sent a resume in here - though I was hired 10 years ago [before we were aquired by the large corporation whose globally recognizable three-letter name appears in my email header...] and don't think they could get away with that level of "informality" these days). I know several people who've gotten all their jobs this way, too. --Pat. From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 30 10:32:27 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting a good job References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <395CBD8B.16F28E51@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > I've been working for about 35 years, and I still don't have a good picture > of what I want to do when I grow up. I do have a good idea of what the > company would be like though. Number one factor is the person in charge, do > they do their job, ie manage and let you engineer? And I thought I was the only one with the "Peter Pan" Syndrome :). Couldn't agree more with your description! IMNSHO,the only reason for college is to open doors. When college and advanced degrees are the keys for a chosen field, it is foolish not to complete a degree. I have thought many times about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher paying job but not much more. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 11:01:38 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEEA@TEGNTSERVER> > Keeping in mind, that (at least in the past) if you paid IBM enough, you > could get a mainframe done in just about any color scheme that you wanted. > > I have to think that the wildest one that I personally experienced, was at > a Ralston Purina (feed) plant. And yes, as you might guess (or fear) the > entire system was painted in red and white checkerboard. Most 370s I'd seen had been either the standard blue or the (older?) burnt sienna, but at IU Kokomo (or was it Fort Wayne?) they had a 370/25 that was canary yellow. Talk about putting your eyes out! -dq From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 30 11:05:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Pat Barron wrote: > My advice for getting a good job (especially if you have a > "non-traditional" background, as I do - I don't have a degree either): > Network, network, network. Get aquainted with people in the industry you > want to work in - lots of people. Make yourself, and your skills, known. I would say my expereince agrees. > I've only had a few jobs since I bailed out of school. In each of my > jobs, the manager hiring for the position had already knew who I was, and > had decided they wanted me before I even interviewed, and before they > ever saw a resume. In each case, the interview was just to make sure I > wasn't a total loon, and the resume was just a formality (I never even ;-) This is exactly what 30 years of work history has been about for me. Often the new employer and I were 'aquainted' in some way, my current position was a direct result of my collecting activity. I'd also say the best jobs I've had/have more or less found me. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 30 10:53:01 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: vax (fwd) Message-ID: I think this guy may have fool's gold syndrome but if someone would like to help him out then please do. Reply-to: m.mcneely@prodigy.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:21:56 -0400 From: m.mcneely Subject: vax i have a vax 4000/300 and codex 6745 i just unplugged from the wall in a major retail store im demolishing it was installed new in 90 i dont know anything about servers but i know it must be worth something it looks new it has 3 dec300servers in it, and plenty of other things [hubs routers monitors and key boards] that i dont know anything about what im looking for is {whats it worth} it was working when i unplugged it it still has the two floppies in the drive and i have all the cables that were hooked to it if you would like i can send pics i'd be willing to pay someone a commition for selling it for me thanks in advance Rick M.McNeely@prodigy.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 12:29:19 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEEA@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > Most 370s I'd seen had been either the standard blue or the > (older?) burnt sienna, but at IU Kokomo (or was it Fort Wayne?) > they had a 370/25 that was canary yellow. Talk about putting > your eyes out! Yellow was a standard color, but I don't think it was picked much. Blue, of course, was the default, but IBM also offered red (orange-ish), white, yellow, and (I think) black and green. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 30 13:14:45 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <395CFFB5.29946.6C8649CE@localhost> > This might be a topic better posted in the alt.folklore.computers > USENET group, but let me try here first. This is from memory, and > it's not as reliable as I'd like it to be. > IIRC, OS/2 was not Microsoft's first attempt to create a > multitasking operating system. They were working on, and > I believe mostly finished, a DOS 4.0 that was multitasking. > This was not the PC-DOS 4.0 for IBM, nor was it the MS-DOS > 4.0 that we finally saw here in the states. > This multitasking DOS 4.0 (from Microsoft, not a third party) > was supplied with a computer that was old only in either the > UK or more widely in Europe. It seems that the first letter > of the computer manufacturer was an 'A', so the machine could > have been an Apricot, an Amstrad, an Acorn, or lord knows. > I read about this machine either in Byte during the late 80s > or in a BIX conference (I MISS BIX!). I've searched the web > for references to this multitasking MS-DOS 4, and have found > nothing. > Does anyone else remember this? Was the Byte article reviewing > a sample of a product that never shipped? Did anyone get their > hands on one? Does anyone have it? Well, I never heared about the version you are refering to, but DOS was basicly starting from 2.0 able to do task switching. All Informations necersary where contained within a series of structures with a single root. The only missing thing was a table of task pointers to switch between - and a service to store and restore the screen content. There have been several products offering this service. And with DOS 4 MS supplied the infamous shell, capable of doing this. You could load several applications and switch via a hot key combination. Windows is still today (at least Win9x) based on this very same mechanism for context switching. Also the functions for 'background' applications/drivers where designed to support application switching. The famous TSR mechanism was not only ment to steal some memory for crude interrupt handlers, but also for true serviceprovider tasks within the OS ... well, I guess most programmers never realized the potential offered and kept limited to a simple one programm state of mind. All this was already available starting with DOS 2.x, just it has never been 'official' until DOS 4.x Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 30 13:18:53 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <395D00AD.22610.6C8A1379@localhost> > > Considering the 96tpi DD 5.25" disk and the 3.5" DD disk, they have the > > same number of cylinders (80), the same number of heads (2), the same > > number of sectors/track (9), the same rotational speed (300 rpm) ,etc. So > > why isn't the capacity _exactly_ the same? > It is. The computer can't tell them apart. > Prior to DOS 3.20 (particularly in 2.11), many OEMs started using > 5.25" 720K drives and 3.5" 720K drives. But because it was not sanctioned > by IBM, there was no standardization, and there were many mutually > incompatible formats. Starting with 3.20, the format is standardized. Thats the core issue: IBM didn't use 720K prior to DOS 3.2 - DOS itself was able to support almost any format you may think of, and many manufacturers did. In case of DOS, IBM was only one of many, and not the sole supplier of everything. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 30 13:25:04 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Dibs... In-Reply-To: <001f01bfe20f$7c0655c0$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <395D0220.23234.6C8FBC34@localhost> > I call dibs on ASCI White (when it's decommissioned) :) Granted :)) H. P.S.: I'll go for the Hitachi SR8000 F1 (#4 at the top500) installed at LRZ in Munich :) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 30 13:25:39 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) Message-ID: <20000630182539.81687.qmail@hotmail.com> In my IBM experience, I can personally confirm the existence of the following colors: Black (The modern standard) Blue (I have a 3262 line printer this color) Gray/grey <- this is what I think is the standard color, though the standard color depends on what line of machines we're talking about.. (My S/36 (5360), both 8100's (8140 and 8150), both 8809 MTD's, and all of my 8101 and 8102 disk drives are this color. Red (I've seen a 3380 this color) Yellow (I have a 3262 line printer in this color, yuck-o) I'm not saying that there might not be other colors, I'm just confirming that these colors do exist. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Fri Jun 30 13:39:34 2000 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Xerox DayBreak Message-ID: Hi. I have a Xerox DayBreak workstation lying on a corner back home and I'd really much liked to do something with it. I have already posted emails to this list about this subject, but since so much time passed since then I resolved to re-post to see I get something new. The issues I'd like to solve are: 1. decent interface of the display output to some monitor -- I worked on a small circuit to convert the ECL levels and separate syncs into a composite video output, for a mono monitor, using discrete components, but the image was sort of fuzzy. Are there any ideas on doing these the right way (if any)? 2. interfacing the keyboard/mouse connector to a PC's serial port -- I managed to build a decent interface for this (using a MAX232), but now the problem is protocol: anyone knows the protocol for sending key presses/releases signals? I believe they have something from 1 to 3 bytes. I have a set of PDF of scanned Xerox manuals (TechRef and IOP) including some schematics (awesome work! congrats for the one who scanned them and put them on the web!). But they don't specify the keyboard protocol. On the other hand, I also got PDF's of the MESA manuals, but they describe teh keyboard interface at the API level (no luck there either). Any help on these issues is very welcome! Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 13:41:10 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEED@TEGNTSERVER> > Well, I never heared about the version you are refering to, but > DOS was basicly starting from 2.0 able to do task switching. > All Informations necersary where contained within a series of > structures with a single root. The only missing thing was a > table of task pointers to switch between - and a service to > store and restore the screen content. There have been several > products offering this service. And with DOS 4 MS supplied the > infamous shell, capable of doing this. You could load several > applications and switch via a hot key combination. Windows is > still today (at least Win9x) based on this very same mechanism > for context switching. Also the functions for 'background' > applications/drivers where designed to support application > switching. The famous TSR mechanism was not only ment to steal > some memory for crude interrupt handlers, but also for true > serviceprovider tasks within the OS ... well, I guess most > programmers never realized the potential offered and kept > limited to a simple one programm state of mind. > > All this was already available starting with DOS 2.x, just > it has never been 'official' until DOS 4.x I'd have to differ with you a bit on this. A co-worker and I spent 6 months writing a DOS 2.0-compatible file system for our own application which contained its own home-rolled multitasker; we had to write the file system because the DOS file system calls were (and through at least 3.3) were not serially-reentrant. Even then, the performance was so poor (we had just moved to deploying on iAPX286 machines) that we ditched the full-task model and created what we today would call "threads", although we simply called them lightweight processes back then. The context switching you're referring to revolves around switching some data structures, such as the file handle table; but you have to wait until a file system call is done before you can swap to the next task. Not useful when (like us) you're developing real-time software. As an aside, this was for the last firm for which I worked as a programmer; I left in '90, and dropped in for a visit in '95; at that time, they told me the system I'd designed was running in a DOS box under the Alpha-release of Win95 and was beating a comparable application running on a VAX. I felt very good that day... -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 13:48:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEEE@TEGNTSERVER> > Gray/grey <- this is what I think is the standard color, My Model 711 Card Reader and Model 716 Line Printer (my first foolish acquisitions, gotten in the 70's and mostly disposed of in the 80's) were gray as you say. -dq From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 30 14:03:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: (mmcfadden@cmh.edu) References: Message-ID: <20000630190316.7104.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike wrote: > 3. 4 plex power boxes under every other tile Way insufficient, if you're talking about "normal" NEMA 5-15R or 5-20R receptacles. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Jun 30 14:21:44 2000 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000629212324.006c3364@agora.rdrop.com> References: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000630151951.009d4b90@popmail.voicenet.com> At 09:23 PM 6/29/00 -0700, you wrote: >I have to think that the wildest one that I personally experienced, was at >a Ralston Purina (feed) plant. And yes, as you might guess (or fear) the >entire system was painted in red and white checkerboard. I had some personal experience with that sale. IBM at first said no, just the standard colors. Ralston Purina said we'll buy at Control Data, they'll give us what we want. IBM gave them checkered covers but it did take some levels of approval. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 14:22:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <20000630182539.81687.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > In my IBM experience, I can personally confirm the existence of the > following colors: OK, I forgot grey. Anyway, these five or six colors were the standards for IBMs in the late 1960s thru the 80s. Certainly IBM charged a premium for straying outside the bounds. Also, it appears that the old IBM stuff did get repainted, probably when the stuff came off lease and was to be sent to another customer. My 3340N1 is blue now but used to be yellow. Others have also run into repainted panels. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 14:29:29 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: <20000630190316.7104.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Way insufficient, if you're talking about "normal" NEMA 5-15R > or 5-20R receptacles. I would tend to agree - not for density of outlets, but for the kinds of outlets. Most larger machines generally have some sort of locking plugs (L5s and L6s). So better include those. Of course we all know that REAL machines don't plug in... One nice way of doing things is to have the boxes tethered to armored flexible conduit (not BX, but sort of a plastic coated Greenfield), so the box can move to the machine, and not the other way around. It is quite legal. RCS/RI is installing dual voltage locking receptacles (L14-30Rs), so that most machines can be plugged in anywhere. Damn expensive, though. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 15:09:05 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEF0@TEGNTSERVER> > One nice way of doing things is to have the boxes tethered to armored > flexible conduit (not BX, but sort of a plastic coated Greenfield), so > the box can move to the machine, and not the other way around. It is > quite legal. > > RCS/RI is installing dual voltage locking receptacles (L14-30Rs), so that > most machines can be plugged in anywhere. Damn expensive, though. Bill, make sure you include tidbits like these in the museum how-to. -doug q, who's running the Prime from a custom 30-amp 5-20R quad terminated extension cord From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 14:39:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <395CBD8B.16F28E51@rain.org> References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: >about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the >question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would >merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and >motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise >having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher >paying job but not much more. I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" reasonable to the boss. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 15:33:38 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting a good job Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEF1@TEGNTSERVER> > >about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the > >question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would > >merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and > >motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise > >having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher > >paying job but not much more. > > I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the > ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" > reasonable to the boss. My first embedded systems project (the Olicon MVP-035 Radiographic Viewer) had a PhD in C.S. working for six months on the project- all he had to show at the end of it was flowcharts. In six weeks the engineer and I had an operational prototype (needless to say we ditched his flowcharts). -dq From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 30 16:10:46 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Getting a good job References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <002301bfe2d7$ac094d40$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I'd be sure the prospective boss has a sense of humor and doesn't have a PhD himself. My take on what a PhD tells your prosepective employer, though yours may, at least to some extent, be quite correct as well, is that the holder of the PhD has on at least one occasion completed (that word comes up a lot!) a pretty major piece of work as specified by his supervisors, with a minimum of intervention from above, availing himself of whatever resources were needed and producing the desired result within the allocated time. There are a lot of perfectly competent engineers who could not do that, under any circumstances, and for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's not directly taught in school, though you have to do some of the necessary things in order to graduate. The first thing, of course is to define and adequately limit the scope of the work that's chosen. The second is to plan out the task and stick to the schedule. There are numerous tasks that are a part of this work that have parallels in the corporate environment. The folks who advance the quickest are the ones who best know how to "get the job done" even if it means doing things they don't already know how to do. Those are the guys who've had the experience described above as the task of getting the PhD. Having the PhD doesn't guarantee you can do it, (personnel people frequently wish they had a guarantee) but it does show everybody you've done it once. I see employers today looking at a bachelor's degree as proof that you showed up pretty consistently over a nominall 4-year period. That's a major concern to employers nowadays. Having the bachelor's degree doesn't guarantee you know or can do a given thing, but it is more likely in the case of a graduate than in one who's not graduated, yet. The same is true of a master's degree, though that's often taken to mean one has addtional course work making him more of an expert in the discipline in which he got the MS. Perhaps that's true, but I'm convinced it's more assurance that the MS-holder has gotten through a fairly large piece of work, as opposed to a bunch of small ones. Does that sound far off what you see where you sit? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 1:39 PM Subject: Re: Getting a good job > >about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the > >question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would > >merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and > >motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise > >having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher > >paying job but not much more. > > I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the > ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" > reasonable to the boss. > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 30 16:37:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: DEC CPU bulkhead issues In-Reply-To: <3953D8E5.C0DF8026@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000630143639.00d75460@208.226.86.10> At 02:38 PM 6/23/00 -0700, Bill King wrote: > Does this have a switch to select between AUI and 10-Base-2? I've >recently repaired two systems where the switch was dirty and didn't make >a good electrical connection. The symptoms were that the AUI port >received, but wouldn't transmit. Maybe that's the problem. Exact-a-mundo! I took it apart and cleaned out the switch (combination of carbon-tet and compressed air) and voila! It works again. Thanks Bill! --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 30 17:03:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:29:29 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000630220349.8795.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Of course we all know that REAL machines don't plug in... Maybe if you're talking Sage-class systems. (No, not the 68K P-system Sage.) All of the really big iron I've worked with still had plugs. Some were big-honkin' three-phase-Y 416V 50A/phase twist-lock plugs, but they were still plugs. From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Jun 30 17:12:58 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F79339@ALFEXC5> Sellam - I'm going to be out of town on a family vacation for the next 10 days or so. I'll drop you a note when I return to see if we can hook up on the Minivac doc. Thanks again! -- Tony > ---------- > From: Sellam Ismail[SMTP:foo@siconic.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:31 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Minivac 601 documentation? > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Eros, Anthony wrote: > > > Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there > anything > > on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable > > price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. > > Yes, you scored. I have all the docs for it but a couple volumes are out > on loan. Contact me privately so we can work out arrangements for > copying. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 > San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Jun 30 17:36:49 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:10 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F79344@ALFEXC5> Accidently forwarded to the entire list again. Sigh... > ---------- > From: Eros, Anthony > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 6:12 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Minivac 601 documentation? > > Sellam - > > I'm going to be out of town on a family vacation for the next 10 days or > so. > I'll drop you a note when I return to see if we can hook up on the Minivac > doc. > > Thanks again! > > -- Tony > > > ---------- > > From: Sellam Ismail[SMTP:foo@siconic.com] > > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:31 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Minivac 601 documentation? > > > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Eros, Anthony wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there > > anything > > > on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable > > > price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. > > > > Yes, you scored. I have all the docs for it but a couple volumes are > out > > on loan. Contact me privately so we can work out arrangements for > > copying. > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > > Danger > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 > > San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jun 30 18:42:45 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Jun 30, 2000 12:39:34 pm" Message-ID: <200006302342.QAA01384@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the > ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" > reasonable to the boss. That's funny, cause here we see the primary skill of a PhD as taking an impossible task and managing to get two monkeys and an engineer who should never have been given a degree to complete it on time, on budget, and without additional assistance. We also expect that a PhD should be able to perform any task that might require a mechanical, electrical, software or civil engineer, an MBA, economist, lawyer or priest. They better have learned more in that extra 4+ years of school than they did in the 16 previous. Of course, that doesn't mean most engineers should have a PhD (or that they could get one if they wanted one.) It just means that there are problems I can drop in the lap of a typical PhD that would take a week to explain to the typical programmer. It's a different skill set, and should be treated as such. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 18:12:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <10006301317.ZM5044@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 30, 0 12:17:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 348 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000701/4f5bb609/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 18:16:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <395CBD8B.16F28E51@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 30, 0 08:32:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 722 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000701/ff44c877/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 18:34:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Xerox DayBreak In-Reply-To: from "Rodrigo Ventura" at Jun 30, 0 07:39:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000701/c06c7f17/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jun 30 19:38:46 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Getting a good job References: <200006302342.QAA01384@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <395D3D96.F73CB95@mainecoon.com> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > We also expect that a PhD should be able to perform any task that might > require a mechanical, electrical, software or civil engineer, an MBA, > economist, lawyer or priest. They better have learned more in that extra 4+ > years of school than they did in the 16 previous. If you amend that to "...learned more about a very specific topic in that extra 4+ years..." then I'd agree. The principle problem with Ph.D.s is that their knowledge base tends to be as narrow as any other new grads; the only distinction being that they have significantly more depth in one very specific area. Worse, during the past four years that they've been focused on that area they've typically been in the "simplifying assumptions" world that's so prevalent in academia; the difficulty being that more often than not they simplify the problem into oblivion and consequently have little useful to offer when it comes to delivering product. I've had more than one occasion where such people were literally reduced to tears in design meetings as a consequence of being crucified by some staff engineer. > Of course, that doesn't mean most engineers should have a PhD (or that they > could get one if they wanted one.) It just means that there are problems > I can drop in the lap of a typical PhD that would take a week to explain to > the typical programmer. "...drop in the lap of a typical PhD who is familiar with the problem area..." Certainly anytime someone already has the proper frame of reference it takes less time for them to spin up; this was useful to me once when I needed formal correctness proofs of optimizations being performed by a code generator for a parallel processor. I went to Rice, got myself someone whose Ph.D. was in that very field and had them generate the (dis)proofs. When they were done we tried to find other things for them to do, but they were only marginally more effective than our new crop of four-year grads. The person in question is now making use of their Ph.D. by teaching undergraduate CS courses. > It's a different skill set, and should be treated as such. I don't see any evidence that the skill set is particularly different; I haven't noticed that holding a Ph.D. makes one any more adept at solving problems or even particularly good at operating the coffee maker. All the Ph.D. represents is an additional four years of training in an environment that is skewed from the one found in industry; the only place where this would be an advantage is if they were to remain in that academic environment -- which many (eventually) do. Of course, my bias is actually broader than this. Given the choice between someone with four years of experience and someone with no experience and an advanced degree I'll generally pick the guy with real world experience. Given the choice between two people with new four year degrees, one with a 4.0, the other with a 2.9 because they were working in the field in order to put themselves through school I'll generally take the guy with the 2.9. It's all about what you can do and how well it fits with my needs. Everything else is meaningless. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Jun 30 19:19:39 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Fw: X-32 boards Message-ID: <053401bfe2f3$1702c110$a652e780@L166> The following is from a PDP11/Mass Spec customer of mine. If anyone has any ideas for him feel free to contact either of us. I will just forward anything to him if it gets posted to me or the list. With a little direction he can run diagnostics and has available an electronics shop and decent test equipment like scopes. I don't know if they have things like logic analyzers however. ( I did not need one the one time I was on site) It even meets the 10 year rule.:) Dan ---------------- We have an X-32 computer (CPU/3), a German unix machine from 1989. This computer operates a Bruker AMX-500 NMR spectrometer. The computer is functional except that Fourier transform calculations frequently give a massive "transmitter" spike that is NOT hardware related. Although we normally do all repairs through Bruker, the director of our facility does not want to repair this problem because the computer will be replaced within a year and the instrument is functional. However, for a frequent user (me), this problem is extremely frustrating and time-consuming. The problem is almost certainly one of the three following X-32 boards: CPU board H2297 ECL 12 Memory 16MB H2271 ECL 02 Array Processor H2231 ECL 06 If anyone can help with this problem, please contact me by email. Thank you. Bill Wilson Research Scientist Bill Wilson billw@rice.edu Rice University, Dept. of Biochemistry MS140 6100 Main St, Houston, TX 77005-1892 http://www.bioc.rice.edu/~billw/ Tel: 713-348-4914 Fax: 713-348-5154 From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Fri Jun 30 20:10:37 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: IBM 6091 monitors Message-ID: <20000630201037.A3748@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I pulled 2 IBM 6091 19" monitors out of the trash. I think they were used on their power pc computers. I need info on this monitor, such as resolution, refresh rate and what are the white and black bnc connectors for. Any help is appreciated. john -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 20:40:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <200006302342.QAA01384@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: from Mike Ford at "Jun 30, 2000 12:39:34 pm" Message-ID: >> I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the >> ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" >> reasonable to the boss. > >That's funny, cause here we see the primary skill of a PhD as taking an >impossible task and managing to get two monkeys and an engineer who should Interesting point of view. I personally see no correllation with a Phd, and the skill sets you describe. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 21:20:59 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: <20000630220349.8795.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > All of the really big iron I've worked with still had plugs. Some > were big-honkin' three-phase-Y 416V 50A/phase twist-lock plugs, but > they were still plugs. Bigger, BIGGER! Medium sized mainframe and above. A Convex I have in the shop has a cord, but its about the size of my wrist, and terminates in a standard (large) electrical junction box. Apparently it was easier to pull out the whole box instead of just cutting the cord. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 30 21:57:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Jul 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > It is a well-known fact to all network hardware types that ethernet > electrons get very confused if forced to go down cable that's not yellow ;-) Have they released new vesrions of the Eddy Electron film, so that it now covers ethernet networking and proper network cabling? If not, I'd be inclined to suspect that this and other newer information hasn't been well enough proven to warrant the creation of a new movie. After all, we know that the Eddy Electron film is the one true source of authoritative introductory information about what electrons do, right? Everyone here did see this classic in their 10th grade high-school (or whatever the equivalent of the first year of high school is in other countries) electronics class, right? ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 22:10:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: IBM 6091 monitors In-Reply-To: <20000630201037.A3748@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: >Hello - > >I pulled 2 IBM 6091 19" monitors out of the trash. I think they were >used on their power pc computers. I need info on this monitor, such >as resolution, refresh rate and what are the white and black bnc >connectors for. >From the griffin web site, and my guess is refresh is 75 hz, black and white are H and V sync. IBM 6091-019 Specifications Monitor Specifications Screen Attributes 19" Aperture grill 17.75" viewable image .31 mm dot pitch Input Signal Video Signal : Analog H Frequency : 63.36/81.32 KHz V Frequency : 60/67/77 Hz Sync Signal : Green Compatibility Mac Adapter : None PC Adapter : Input Connector 3 or 5 BNC Maximum Resolution Maximum : 1024x1024 & 1280x1024 Macintosh : Flicker free : Power Use Power Supply : Consumption : maximum Video Bandwidth 100 Mhz User Controls Analog controls BR, CT, CV, VE From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 22:12:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >After all, we know that the Eddy Electron film is the one true source Aren't there some "holes" in that old theory? From bmahoney2001 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 30 23:14:54 2000 From: bmahoney2001 at sympatico.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:11 2005 Subject: IBM 6091 monitors References: <20000630201037.A3748@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <395D703D.6D82E4E@sympatico.ca> IBM has one of the largest sites on the net, and 'for sure' the information you need is there. Don't search from the main page, go to support and then search. I have never yet not found what I needed. You have to go in with the attitude that the what you're looking for is there, you just have to find it. Kind of like my basement. Brian John Ott wrote: > Hello - > > I pulled 2 IBM 6091 19" monitors out of the trash. I think they were > used on their power pc computers. I need info on this monitor, such > as resolution, refresh rate and what are the white and black bnc > connectors for. > > Any help is appreciated. > > john > > -- > > ************************************************************************ > * * * > * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * > * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * > * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * > * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * > * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * > * * * > ************************************************************************ -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ (_8^(I) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 00:37:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Updated Dilog contact information Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> >Delivered-To: cmcmanis@mcmanis.com >From: Jack Olson >To: "'cmcmanis@mcmanis.com'" >Subject: FW: DLI MOVE >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:27:09 -0700 > > > >---------- >From: Jack Olsen >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 11:35 AM >To: Jack Olsen >Subject: DLI MOVE > > >WHAT'S HAPPENING >AT DLI/DILOG? > > >If you've tried to reach us in the last couple of months, you probably >sense that there is something going on. Well you're right. The facility >that we have been occupying in Irvine for the last eight years was sold to >a church. So we had to relocate. > >We found the perfect site only 3 miles away in the city of Tustin and >proceeded to make what was supposed to be a seamless move to our >new digs the first week in March. Well, it wasn't so seamless. The first >problem was that even though we are close to the old place, the new one >was in a different area code, so we had to change telephone and fax >numbers. > >OK, the telephone company will take care of referrals from the old to >the new number. However, a good amount of our communications with >our customers was via email. Now you have to understand our internal >network and connections. We have a Novel system for file, print, email >and Internet access. the Novel is connected to a Linux firewall Internet >gateway. The Linux accesses the Internet every 15 minutes during the >day to retrieve and send email for the company, then delivers it to our >desk with Microsoft exchange. Nice working system. > >No problem. Just disconnect the parts at the old place, and reconnect at >the new, plug into the wall and run. Right? - - Wrong. The Novel >systems disk decided that it didn't like the climate at it's new home and >proceeded to show its displeasure with a series of strange metal against >metal sounds. No problem, we have a Libra library backup system and >are fully backed up. Put on the new disk and restore the Novel system. >Well, the Libra is one of the first ever made and has been chugging >away everyday since we originally installed it. The DAT drive went on >strike and had to be replaced. Once that was done we found out how >important it is to remember where one packs the backup tape set. > >OK its now late March, the Novel server is up and running, but the >building Ethernet wiring is not correct. Emails are being received >sporadically. Bob gets the building wiring squared away and all is >looking well when we receive a registered letter from Concentric, our >Internet service provider telling us that they are discontinuing our dial- >up account on Apr. 24. > >Time to enter the 21st century - we proceed to order an enhanced DSL >service. They can't install until May 1. Call Concentric and see if they >will stretch our disconnect date until then. Officially they cannot agree >to do this. Unofficially it is done - Thank You Concentric. On May 1, >our DSL is installed - but we are given the wrong network connection >card to the Linux system. Got the correct card - DSL works - WOW - >real time mail delivery. > >So now we're here in our new facility with a fully operational LAN and >Internet. > >If you had some trouble reaching us, we apologize. We are here for you >and are now fully accessible via phone - at our new number, fax - at our >new number, or email and web page at the same number. > >Phone 714-508-1040, fax 714-508-1050, >email info@dilog.com, www.dilog.com. > >So remember, same great products for Qbus and Unibus, - > >Same support, - > >New digs. - > >Give us a call. > >Sincerely, > >The DLI crew > From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 00:05:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Responding to an older message... On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > However, I've just thought of a better example : I once saw a card for an > Apple ][ containing a 1771 and associated components (and probably a > ROM). It linked to an external box containing 2 8" drives. The official > purpose was to allow an Apple with a Z80 Softcard to read standard SSSD > CP/M disks. But I am _sure_ it could have been used from Apple DOS given > the right software. > > Which means the archive format would have to allow for : > > Apple ][, 16 sector 5.25" GCR-encoded disk > and > Apple ][, 26 sector, 8", FM encoded disk. > > It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should > be able to handle _anything_. In any case, I would think that 256 > sub-formats for each machine would be plenty, which means this adds _1 > byte_ to the archive size. Not really a problem IMHO. I suppose a sub-format byte wouldn't hurt. What I don't like about it is that it will require that someone be maintaining a database of all the sub-formats. But I guess since we have a machine identifier and this will have to be maintained as well, a sub-format byte is not too demanding. Of course, there will have to be a central person who is responsible for receiving input for new machine and sub-format types, updating the database with the new computer types and sub-format types, and disseminating this from a website. This is something that can be hosted from the VCF server. The header could also include a text description entered in by the archiver that could describe anything special about the archive. In fact, I envision the archiving program having a section where the archiver inputs his/her name and e-mail address, which will get encoded along with the archive. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 00:30:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's the next iteration of our standard in progress. I've decided to split the header into two separate ones--a Disk Descriptor Header and a Track Descriptor Header--as the discussion has been moving us towards. Desk Descriptor Header 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) 4. Encoding type (1 byte) 5. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] Optional: 6. Archiver Name (24 bytes) 7. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) 8. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) 9. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) A. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) Maximum size: 598 bytes [1] If applicable A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall description of the track: Track Descriptor Header 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Size: 12 bytes [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-7 are ignored. [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. As we can see, so far the addition of the headers adds no significant size to the archive. Comments? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 02:37:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: "Mark Gregory" "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 17:27) References: <01d901bfcb57$d4f9d7c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <10006010837.ZM13597@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 17:27, Mark Gregory wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > >Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* > >lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? > If you want increase your data storage capacity, you could colour code the > string, too. > > Everything old is new again ... we've just re-invented the Inca quipu, a > few centuries on. I know. Aside from jibes at those who so vehemently insist that there should be one particular form of archive, I'm not sure anyone really knows how to read quipus, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 03:13:10 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 22:05) References: Message-ID: <10006010913.ZM13626@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 22:05, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Responding to an older message... > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: [...] > > Which means the archive format would have to allow for : [...] > > It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should > > be able to handle _anything_. Wel, I agree with that, so far as it's possible. > I suppose a sub-format byte wouldn't hurt. What I don't like about it is > that it will require that someone be maintaining a database of all the > sub-formats. But I guess since we have a machine identifier and this will > have to be maintained as well, a sub-format byte is not too demanding. > Of course, there will have to be a central person who is responsible for > receiving input for new machine and sub-format types, updating the > database with the new computer types and sub-format types, and > disseminating this from a website. That's part of the reason I think an encoded format is a bad idea. Hans' suggestion of a tagged format using XML (or something else) is much better. It allows for decoding without referring to a central archive, and it's much more flexible and extensible. Sure, it takes more space, but is that a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly later mail): { Disk Descriptor Header, containing: Host computer type string "Hard"/"soft" sector flag Number of tracks (1 byte) Disk drive RPM ... { Track Descriptor Header, containing: Track number (with fraction) Track format "logical"/"raw" Track size in bytes Sectors in this track (1 byte) Offset to next Track Descriptor Header ... { Sector header descriptor, containing: Sector header format FM/MFM/GCR/... Sector data format FM/MFM/GCR/... [1] Sector number as encoded on the original disk Track number as encoded on original disk Head number as encoded on original disk Physical sector number Sector size ... { sector data (binary, hex-coded, whatever) } { Sector header descriptor } { sector data } } } The nesting tagging allows you to specify things like RX02 floppies, where the headers are FM but the data is MFM. It also allows you to specify different sector sizes on different tracks, or data written in the headers that doesn't match physical track/sector/side on the original. It also means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same time, or someone rolled their own. I've seen too many data formats where the decoding information was unavailable, or was hard to get, or was "location unknown at this time", or the prospective user simply didn't now where to look. If the information is in the archive itself, anyone can work out what do do with it, any time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 04:24:46 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: New Vintage Computer Festival Website! Message-ID: The new Vintage Computer Festival website is now up. http://www.vintage.org Yes, there are still some broken links (none of the foreign language links work for instance...translators needed) but these will be fixed shortly. I invite anyone and everyone to submit articles for publication on the VCF website on any topic having to do with vintage computers and computer history. A link to the article will appear on the home page guaranteeing you exposure. Much thanks goes to Hans Franke for developing the new design! VCF 4.0 dates should be announced within a week or so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 04:44:32 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010837.ZM13597@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I know. Aside from jibes at those who so vehemently insist that there > should be one particular form of archive, I'm not sure anyone really knows > how to read quipus, though. Actually, I do. I did a paper on the Quipu for a history course I took in Peru in the summer of '99 and it's been a low-bandwidth pet research project of mine ever since. I gave a talk based on my Quipu paper at VCF Europa and exhibited the Quipu I constructed while in Peru. The quipu structure was decoded during the first quarter of this century by Leland Locke. His book _The Ancient Quipu_ (1923) explains how the data on the Quipu is encoded. A husband & wife team, Marcia & Robert Ascher, published _Code of the Quipu_ in 1981 which expands on Locke's work. Numbers are encoded on the strings in decimal (base 10) format. No knots represent zero (that the Inca's understood the concept of zero is significant). The color of the strings was also significant, most likely representing categories of data. The problem is that no one knows just what the numbers represent on the quipus known to exist since the context has long been lost and the dumb Conquistadors basically destroyed any evidence of the Inca civilization that might have shed some light on it. I could go into way more detail but right now I am extremely tired so if anyone is truly interested I will be happy to explain more, and also shoot you a copy of the paper I did which is a good overview. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 07:18:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Papertape and Mylar variant Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD7B@TEGNTSERVER> > > Right-o... teletypes with the reader/punch used rolls of paper tape. > > I have a copy of DEC Monopoly on papertape that I punched myself, as > > well as a copy of Intel's INTERP-80 (8080a simulator) and a > Star Trek > > game called BIGMES (from an HP 2000). > > What machine did INTERP-80 run on? Was it written in BASIC? No, it was written in Fortan-IV. I ported it from its original generic source code to run on the CDC6600 under Kronos 2.1, a DEC-10 running TOPS-10, and lastly, a Prime P400 running Primos. > I'm currently writing a simulation of the hardware that HP 2000 TSB ran > on (a pair of HP 21xx minicomputers with a pair of bidirectional parallel > interfaces between them). I've typed in most of the source code to > 2000C' from a printed listing, and have written an assembler in Perl. I must say, that's pretty cool. I used to have some other HP2000 programs, but the only one I found the other day was a listing that I'd printed on a Silent 700 terminal. Environmental effects have darkened the thermal paper to make it nearly unreadable. A bit of squinting for a day or two might surmount that problem. > I'd be interested in getting copies of those paper tapes, and anything > else you might have that could be run on a 2000. Naturally I'm willing > to pay copying and postage costs. As I consider the paper tapes priceless, you'd have to be willing to put up a serious chunk of change in escrow in case anything happened to them. Better that you wait for me stage them to a newer format. > I'll make accounts on the simulated 2000 available once it's running. If you need BASIC programs to run on your simulator, keep a close watch on E-Bay for books of BASIC games. I saw David Ahl's book 101 BAsic Games the other day; that's for DEC-10 BASIC, but I recall there were some books on HP BASIC back way back when, so one of those books will doubtlessly surface. Another resource for HP 2000 programs would be old issues of Creative Computing (another wonderful magazine killed by the evil Ziff-Davis empire). Good luck; I'll file your message to me in my hobby folder so that I'll have your e-mail address, and once I finally get BIGMES on disk, I'll let you know. -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 08:24:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric/Posting Machine (Was RE: Atari 800 keyboard s) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD7E@TEGNTSERVER> > How much do you want for it, and where is it? It sounds neat. I dunno... lemme think about it. Shipping is likely to be expensive! -dq From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 1 08:32:50 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <02c201bfcb7b$b1a59ce0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: I'm going to try to put up a picture on our site as soon as I can put together some text to go with it. I understand they were very popular with the phone companies. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Yes, I have the additional software you mentioned. > Almost think the machine was ahead of it's time, very swank looking, to well > made (like a tank) and to expensive. Such is often life of good > ideas/creations. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 9:10 PM > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > As I recall, ours has special software, a word processor, a comm > > programme, and something else - a database? We also have Multiplan and > > perhaps Lotus floating around. I think it is one of the nicest of the > > early portables. > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying > case. > > > Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, > Multiplan > > > & Rbase. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's > boot8ing, > > > > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > > > > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works > fine, > > > > even has the carrying case. > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Merle - > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little > > > creation. > > > > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no > image? > > > What > > > > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine > on? > > > > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > > > To: > > > > > Cc: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice > > > little > > > > > > machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS > machine > > > > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it > was > > > > > designed > > > > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in > > > about > > > > > 1983 > > > > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company > called > > > > > Comterm. > > > > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no > > > image > > > > > is > > > > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service > info > > > > > and/or > > > > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 09:01:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD84@TEGNTSERVER> > I'm one of the people who still does use paper tape for backup. Not for Any chance you have a spare reader you'd be willing to load? I'd be willing to put up a security desposit for its safe return... -dq p.s. Oh, it's 8-level paper tape, not 5-level (just making sure)... From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 1 09:57:59 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Vax-11 Instruction Set Videos References: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <393679F7.77B16644@rain.org> This is a set of thirteen 3/4" tapes that cover the Vax-11 Instruction Set. They are titled: Instruction Formats & Addressing Modes Lesson 1, Lessons 2 & 3 Integer, Logical, & Branch Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 & 4 Floating Point Instructions Variable Bit Field Instructions Stack & Address Instructions Procedure & Subroutine Instructions Character String Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, lessons 3 & 4 Special Instructions Decimal String Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 - 5 I am selling these for John as he is doing what I should be doing: emptying the house :).Again, these are on 3/4" tape, NOT VHS. $300 for the set + shipping for about 27 pounds or so. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 12:35:39 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Track Descriptor Header > > 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] > 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] > 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) Insert "Sector Interleave" (will 1 byte suffice = 2 4-bit values?) > 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) > 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) > 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) > 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Special raw disk bytes such as synchronization bytes (as on the Apple ][) will have to be denoted in some fashion. But how? There were anywhere from 8 to 16 8-bit sync bytes (having the value 255) found at the beginning of each track and before each sector that contained two additional zero bits at the end (so they looked like 1111111100). How will these get stored? Perhaps a map could be included with raw track data to specify sync bytes. The map would be a series of bits, each bit corresponding to a byte in the raw track image, a 1 bit meaning the byte is a sync byte and a 0 meaning normal. The bits can be packed into bytes so that a track of 5,472 bytes (roughly the theoretical size of a raw 16-sector Apple ][ disk track) would take 684 additional bytes. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 13:10:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010913.ZM13626@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That's part of the reason I think an encoded format is a bad idea. Hans' > suggestion of a tagged format using XML (or something else) is much better. > It allows for decoding without referring to a central archive, and it's > much more flexible and extensible. Sure, it takes more space, but is that But a lot more volumnious. But this is just my prejudice speaking. Even though I find HTML useful, I hate it. > a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the > sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd > envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly > later mail): I don't like the idea of storing the actual sector data as text though. A single floppy disk could turn into a megabyte or more. I guess in this day and age it doesn't matter much anymore but when I was growing up you had to make every byte count, and I know more than 95% of us here can relate to that. > The nesting tagging allows you to specify things like RX02 floppies, where > the headers are FM but the data is MFM. It also allows you to specify Weird. This is something new to me. But do we really need a markup language to describe this? Instead we can add a Sector Descriptor Header (we were heading in this direction anyway) and have a byte to describe the sector header format and the sector data format for each sector. > different sector sizes on different tracks, or data written in the headers > that doesn't match physical track/sector/side on the original. It also > means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise > inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of > inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same > time, or someone rolled their own. I agree with that. Human readability is definitely a compelling advantage as is the elimination of the need for a centralized database of system descriptions. Well, this is certainly something to consider. A hard-coded format or a markup format? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 13:12:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more thing I forgot to add... On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Track Descriptor Header > > > > 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] > > 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] > > 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) > > Insert "Sector Interleave" (will 1 byte suffice = 2 4-bit values?) > > > 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) > > 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) > > 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) > > 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 15:34:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they were actually recorded. Also, re having a field that denotes the source machine, this seems dangerous. What if the disk has dual directories and is supposed to work on more than one dir structure? What if it's a generic format that works on lots of different machines (like FAT or RT-11, these disks have become de facto interchange standards and often exist w/o ever touching the machines for whom that's a native format)? Also, even if there is a source architecture specifier, I'd rather see this as a short ASCII string rather than a magic number, so that we won't need a central authority to assign the numbers, in most cases it's obvious what short string uniquely identifies the architecture (like with SCSI vendor and device IDs). In any case, this is more information than *real* floppies have! All you (i.e. the computer) need to know in any given instance, is whether this disk is in *your* format, and you'll find that out when you try to read it. Just like a real floppy. The complexity seems to be rapidly getting out of hand, and I wonder whether this is solving problems that don't really come up that often? Having something which treats floppies as a black box, like Teledisk, is handy in some circumstances, but I already dislike Teledisk because it gets you in the silly situation of being unable to reproduce the disk even on the machine for which it is intended. In this regard, an open standard is a big step up from Teledisk, but now that means that in order to reproduce a floppy on its native machine, you have to grab the spec and write a big disk copier utility for that machine, which knows how to parse text tags (please tell me I misunderstood that part) and double-check header formats to make sure they're really vanilla. All instead of simply writing the contiguous binary data out in the native format. I think a nice compromise might be to represent each floppy disk with two files, one of which contains all the data as a straight binary image in whatever's the most sensible order for that machine, which would be convenient for use on the original machine (not to mention emulators), and the other one contains all the fancy headers and sector descriptors, with pointers into the binary image. That would make the images easy to move to/from real disks on the original machine, they'd be easy to manipulate with file system utilities (or something like the Linux loopback device), and you could use the same descriptor file with an arbitrary number of binary image files so there'd be less work involved in cooking up the image files, and they'd use a lot less disk space. The only down side I can think of is how to make sure the matching descriptor file and image file don't get separated from one another. John Wilson D Bit From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Jun 1 15:33:32 2000 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Hi All, One the nice things about this list is the variety of first hand experience that can be called upon to clear up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. Up for review: 1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything about the people that helped design these computers? 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under UV light for an extended period until the memory cells were still light sensitive but would no long hold a charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. 3. This has probably been discussed here before, but .... I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took. 4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair 8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. (Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to get married at the end of April.) Comments welcome, I would like to deallocate the space for the ones that have no real basis in fact. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 15:04:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 10:05:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/97da7e24/attachment-0001.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 1 15:59:33 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells >were still light sensitive but would no long hold a >charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, >you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into >memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had >heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I can't speak for the EPROM legend, having never heard it, but I do know some folks that did this with DRAM. Basically, they took the top off a ceramic DRAM (IIRC, it was a 16Kx1; this was some time ago) and arranged for an image to be focussed on the DRAM. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 1 16:05:48 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Doug Coward To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 2:41 PM Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? >Hi All, > One the nice things about this list is the variety of >first hand experience that can be called upon to clear >up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging >around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. > >Up for review: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? I've never heard of the Mindset PC, but the Amiga story is very nicely told at The Amiga Interactive Guide, at www.amiga.emugaming.com . Follow the Features link, and see "Amiga History" and "The Amiga Corporation 1982-84". Although a team of designers was involved, the person generally credited as "the father of the Amiga" is the late Jay Miner, who came from Atari Corp. via Xymos. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:08:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of the diskette and vice versa. > Also, re having a field that denotes the source machine, this seems > dangerous. What if the disk has dual directories and is supposed to > work on more than one dir structure? What if it's a generic format > that works on lots of different machines (like FAT or RT-11, these > disks have become de facto interchange standards and often exist w/o > ever touching the machines for whom that's a native format)? Also, Then the machine descriptor would reflect the actual machine that the software was designed to run on. Providing I understand what you are saying, I don't see a problem here. > even if there is a source architecture specifier, I'd rather see this > as a short ASCII string rather than a magic number, so that we won't > need a central authority to assign the numbers, in most cases it's I don't like that because it allows for too much variation in the naming convention. I suppose we can include a database of pre-defined Computer Type strings in the archive creation software but still allow the archiver to type in his/her own to allow for new computers. The Computer Typer strings can be contained in a textfile that can be updated regularly and downloaded from the homepage for the project. > obvious what short string uniquely identifies the architecture (like > with SCSI vendor and device IDs). That works because each SCSI vendor creates one string that they use. If we have multiple people creating their own strings for computer names then it gets messy. Something to ponder though... > In any case, this is more information than *real* floppies have! All you > (i.e. the computer) need to know in any given instance, is whether this disk > is in *your* format, and you'll find that out when you try to read it. Just > like a real floppy. This is not just for the computer's sake but for the humans who are archiving it as well. We need to know what this disk is (hmmm, need to add a Title string) rather than have to make silly guesses. Besides, diskettes DO have this information, generally on the label :) > The complexity seems to be rapidly getting out of hand, and I wonder > whether this is solving problems that don't really come up that often? I don't think it's getting out of hand at all. I see a clear end to the current design process. I'd hate to make a "standard" that doesn't address all the various needs of every different floppy format and then end up having to extend the standard later or not have it adopted due to it's limited usefulness. We have the ability right now to think, argue, recommend, specify and commit and so we might as well try to do it as rightly as possible. > Having something which treats floppies as a black box, like Teledisk, is > handy in some circumstances, but I already dislike Teledisk because it gets > you in the silly situation of being unable to reproduce the disk even on > the machine for which it is intended. In this regard, an open standard is Well, we are trying to create an archive standard that does allow a physical disk to be re-created from an archive. > a big step up from Teledisk, but now that means that in order to reproduce > a floppy on its native machine, you have to grab the spec and write a big > disk copier utility for that machine, which knows how to parse text tags > (please tell me I misunderstood that part) and double-check header formats > to make sure they're really vanilla. All instead of simply writing the > contiguous binary data out in the native format. What I envision is that the software component on the target machine will only require the following abilities: a) read floppy in logical or raw format b) write floppy in logical or raw format c) send/receive archive data over a serial or parallel port I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard turns into a big messy markup language. Once this standard is close to complete I intend to develop either a Linux or DOS-based demo archival application as well as the utility software for the Apple ][ to evaluate the workability of the standard before it is committed to. > I think a nice compromise might be to represent each floppy disk with > two files, one of which contains all the data as a straight binary > image in whatever's the most sensible order for that machine, which > would be convenient for use on the original machine (not to mention > emulators), and the other one contains all the fancy headers and > sector descriptors, with pointers into the binary image. That would This is a circular specification. What you need in order to create a "no-nonsense" archive IS the standard we are attempting to define, because every machine will invariably have some wacky formats that won't allow a sensible, straight-forward archive to be made. This needs to be taken into account. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 1 16:13:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000601160727.02531a60@pc> At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, Doug Coward wrote: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? If you have a list of people who worked on Mindset, I'm sure we can compare it to the more-well-known list of people who worked on the Amiga. Did you ever see this rumor in print? Or where did it come from? >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells I remember RAM chip-based cameras, not EPROM. I remember a magazine project for the Apple II. Early Byte, maybe? >4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, >that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just >a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair >8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. This is well-documented... or at least Ed Roberts has maintained this alibi over the years. Supposedly they shipped the first unit to R-E for the cover shot, but it never made it. Cynics say it wasn't ready. I, too, wonder why you'd send a "real" unit for a beauty shot, when the empty case would do the same. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 1 16:04:20 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000601155529.01f27c90@pc> At 12:42 AM 6/1/00 -2300, Tony Duell wrote: >Try to use the laser scanner block from a >laser printer for this, together with a suitable detector). You could >probably enlarge an area from the film, print it onto photographic paper and >scan it with a normal flatbed scanner. Hmm, a few messages back I was wondering if today's low-price LED laser printers had a dense linear array of LEDs that exposed the drum, and that this array could be used to print a matrix to the film. I've mentioned http://www.paperdisk.com/ before, perhaps some would like to revisit this technology. The problem is, laser-print melted plastic "ink" sticks to itself, and to paper, and suffers when the enclosing medium is out-gassing volatiles... I like the ideas about digitizing the stream of raw disk data. I imagine it would be possible to perform some software-based analysis and repair, rendering previously scrogged disks readable. Or perhaps the forensic-style recovery of erased data, reading and averaging adjacent off-center track information. I seem to remember a PDP guy on this list who recovers reel tape data this way, digitizing the raw tracks and processing with software, as opposed to relying on antique hardware methods for decoding the stream. I wish this technology existed for other media, too. I have several hours of out-of-alignment video from a camcorder whose capstans were drifting over the course of months and years. The precious video of my young kids is now unreadable except at random when the position of the heads happens to float into the alignment of when that segment was recorded. - John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 16:19:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >Up for review: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? I believe that would be Jay Miner. >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells >were still light sensitive but would no long hold a >charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, >you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into >memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had >heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. Nope, but you could remove the cover off a Dynamic RAM and do this. It was the basis for the "cyclops" camera. I have a couple of RAMs I did this to (they still work too!) The theory is that the photons knock the charge off the capacitors turning 1 bits into zero bits. The way it was used most effectively was to write all ones, then scan it about 16 times recording the bit pattern each time. Bright light turned bits to zero immediately, less light took longer. The resulting 16 scans could be converted into a 4 bit grey scale image. Check back issues in Byte for the Steve Ciarcia article on this, and later the "OPTICRam" which was a commercialized version. >3. This has probably been discussed here before, but .... >I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy >diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside >edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is >is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first >form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took. Eric Smith has all the skinny on this one. >4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, >that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just >a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair >8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. >(Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it > might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single > sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to > get married at the end of April.) My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus delayed first shipments. --Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 1 16:20:08 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:13 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3936D388.CBE7EAF2@mainecoon.com> Doug Coward wrote: > Up for review: > 1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > about the people that helped design these computers? Urg. Kinda. Around 1982 at Atari Corporate Research we had a project to develop a laptop computer designed for games which was 68K based with custom video and audio hardware. Most of this stuff never saw the light of day, but the sound hardware sticks in my mind as something that made it to the point of being a functional prototype. After Atari went nova the rumor was that many of the refugees of the audio effort ended up at Amiga and that many of the video guys ended up at Mindset. I certainly recognized a few of the names on the inside of the A1000 we used to develop the Hurricane as being refugees from Atari, as well as one guy who was a refugee from BTI (of the BTI 5000 and dreaded 8000 fame). -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Jun 1 16:20:51 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:15 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Doug Coward wrote: > Hi All, > One the nice things about this list is the variety of > first hand experience that can be called upon to clear > up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging > around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. [snip] > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. In the very early 80's. Steve Ciarcia (Micromint) designed an Apple II 'camera' that used this concept... it had a the chip behind a common c-mount TV lens, an interface board, and software to manage the image, do simple dithering, print the images, etc. The one I owned is now on it's way to Hans Franke... so he might be able to report on it if he gets it up and running. Cheers John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 15:48:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Jun 1, 0 01:33:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/02d155ce/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:32:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601213210.11615.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > No, the trick (as used in SOS, and in the Lisa I/O card ROM) is to > do 1:1 interleave *without8 a track buffer. They directly denibblize > as they're reading the bits from the disk. Sellam Ismail wrote: > I didn't think the ][ was fast enough to do that? That's why I called it a "trick". After all, everyone knows that a 1 MHz 6502 isn't fast enough to do disk control in software at all! :-) Woz's design is a classic example of "thinking outside the box". IIRC, he was quoted somewhere as saying that he didn't previously have any knowledge of the design of disk controllers, so he just designed what he thought would be necessary. Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips as some of them. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 1 16:32:42 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000601173242.20200db6@trailing-edge.com> >I like the ideas about digitizing the stream of raw disk data. >I imagine it would be possible to perform some software-based >analysis and repair, rendering previously scrogged disks readable. >Or perhaps the forensic-style recovery of erased data, reading >and averaging adjacent off-center track information. > >I seem to remember a PDP guy on this list who recovers reel tape >data this way, digitizing the raw tracks and processing with >software, as opposed to relying on antique hardware methods for >decoding the stream. That would've been me, I think :-). It really is straightforward to do today - a PC, a few hundred dollars of investment for the A/D hardware and cabling, an old 9-track or 7-track drive that you can set up to spool forward at a constant rate, and you've got the hardware side done. The analysis software is where the real magic occurs - look up "PRML" in a good engineering or math bookstore and you'll be on the right path. Incorporating the data from non-flaky channels to recover the data in the flaky channel is easy for 1/2" magtapes because of the existence of both longitudinal and horizontal parity bits. The same techniques work for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppies, too. You don't have the luxury of parity channels there, but PRML techniques put you way ahead of traditional data separators. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:34:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: Current iteration: Desk Descriptor Header 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) 4. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] Optional: 5. Archiver Name (24 bytes) 6. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) 7. Disk Title (64 bytes) 8. Publisher (if applicable) (24 bytes) 9. Year of Publication (2 bytes) A. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) B. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) C. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) ***Does it make sense to have separate fields as specified #7-9 or should we rely upon the archivist to include that data in the description? I think so since this is important information that should be forced to be included with the archive. Maximum size: 685 bytes [1] If applicable Note: Encoding type moved to Track Descriptor Header A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall description of the track: Track Descriptor Header 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] 2. Disk Side (1 byte) 3. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] 4. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) 6. Encoding type (1 byte) 7. Sectors in this track (1 byte) 8. Interleave (1 byte) 9. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) A. Bits per byte (1 byte) B. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Size: 15 bytes [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-9 are ignored. [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. I can start to see where the flexibility afforded by a markup language makes sense. I just can't figure out why I am still resisting it though. So, are we on the right track? The wrong track? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:36:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > Although a team of designers was involved, the person generally credited as > "the father of the Amiga" is the late Jay Miner, who came from Atari Corp. > via Xymos. When did Jay Miner pass away? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:38:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> (dcoward@pressstart.com) References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <20000601213800.11665.qmail@brouhaha.com> > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I don't think that would work. I've cooked EPROMs for months without any change in their functioning. More likely, you could marginally program all the bits, or program them solidly then erase until they're marginal. Then outside light would move them across the threshold. However, this would be *extremely* sensitive to temperature and supply voltage. I doubt it could be made even slightly practical. On the other hand, if you pop the top off an old DRAM (made before they started adding opaque passivation layers), they make a servicable imaging element, if you don't mind the gaps between the quadrants (which would also be found in EPROMs). There were actually some products that used this technique, and Micron sold DRAMs packaged for this purpose. From transit at lerctr.org Thu Jun 1 16:39:22 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > From: Doug Coward > > > >Up for review: > >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > >about the people that helped design these computers? > > > I've never heard of the Mindset PC, http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art24.htm From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:39:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601213950.11699.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. Sellam Ismail wrote: > I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of > the diskette and vice versa. I have no idea what you mean by that. The Apple ][ disk format has no concept of "side". There's no field in the address mark for a side designation. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jun 1 16:44:01 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> from Doug Coward at "Jun 1, 2000 01:33:32 pm" Message-ID: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > 4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, > that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just > a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair > 8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. > (Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it > might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single > sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to > get married at the end of April.) > The original Altair prototype was lost while being shipped to Popular Electronics. Thus, the picture on the front cover of the magazine was indeed an empty case. The article contains pictures of the prototype which were taken before it was shipped. Those photos show a computer with no bus, instead the boards were connected using ribbon cable. Ed Roberts came up with a new design for the replacement, which included a bus with room for additional cards, and a 'powerful' 8-amp power supply, installed in an 'Optima' cabinet. Source: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer. -Lawrence LeMay From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 16:56:54 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin>; from mgregory@vantageresearch.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 03:05:48PM -0600 References: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <20000601175654.A23311@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 03:05:48PM -0600, Mark Gregory wrote: >I've never heard of the Mindset PC, It was a wicked cool 80186-based PC, just barely PC-compatible enough to get your hopes up but that's about where it ended. It had really snazzy (for the time) graphics and sound hardware, weird keyboard (IIRC the power switch was on it and actually sent scan codes rather than controling the PS directly), and a timer which among other things could be programmed to turn the machine on and off. Came out around '84 I think, and disappeared pretty quickly. I remember seeing an ACP ad selling the bare boxes off for $200 a couple of years later, still kicking myself for not buying one. John Wilson D Bit From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jun 1 16:56:41 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Up for review: > >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > >about the people that helped design these computers? > > I believe that would be Jay Miner. You're saying Jay Miner worked on the Mindset? Both the Mindset and the Amiga were released in 1984, right? It seems unlikely that they were designed by the same guy(s). I've never heard this particular bit of folklore, though. > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was > the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS > was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus > delayed first shipments. Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that is second-hand. Cheers, Doug From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:03:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601213210.11615.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > After all, everyone knows that a 1 MHz 6502 isn't fast enough to do disk > control in software at all! :-) Woz's design is a classic example of > "thinking outside the box". IIRC, he was quoted somewhere as saying > that he didn't previously have any knowledge of the design of disk > controllers, so he just designed what he thought would be necessary. But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, > any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's > design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips > as some of them. 6 to be exact. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:08:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601213950.11699.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of > > the diskette and vice versa. > > I have no idea what you mean by that. The Apple ][ disk format has no > concept of "side". There's no field in the address mark for a side > designation. Of course not. But because of the head orientation on Apple disk drives, the backside of the disk is what actually holds the "side 1" data. Say for instance you had a bad sector on a "one-sided" diskette caused by a physical defect and you looked at the front surface of the disk through the head notch looking for the defect. You wouldn't see it. You'd have to flip the disk over to see the defect. But of course, you knew this :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:14:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art24.htm Nice little summary article. >From that: "Aquarius Mattel When Mattel demonstrated this computer at a trade show in 1983, employees had to conceal one of the keys with masking tape. For some bizarre reason known only to Matte l engineers, the Aquarius had a convenient key that instantly rebooted the computer and wiped out all your data." It was called the RESET key and I hated it. They at least designed a little ridge around it so it was harder to accidentally press. However, I remember you could do a CTRL-C or some other control key sequence and "undo" the RESET (basially it would cancel the reset and put you back where you just were). When you first turned the Aquarius on, you had a little intro screen that said whatever, something like "Mattel Aquarius" ... "Press any key to continue". When you pressed a key it initialized BASIC and plopped you into a prompt. Pressing the RESET key apparently didn't erase the memory but just took you to the initial startup screen, so it was made possible to back out of a RESET using the control key sequence. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 1 17:19:57 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <014a01bfcc17$881bca60$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Tech Rumors/Legends? > >When did Jay Miner pass away? > June 20, 1994. For a full bio, see http://www.jms.org/jay-miner.html Mark. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 17:25:30 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601152223.00ca8660@208.226.86.10> At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote: > > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was > > the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS > > was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus > > delayed first shipments. > >Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The >only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that >is second-hand. Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while. --Chuck From stan at netcom.com Thu Jun 1 17:22:19 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> Hello all, I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: APPLE COMPUTER INC. 820-0510-A c1993 It also has a chip on it with the label: 341S0021 c 1983-93 Apple ^ | |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm beginning to think it's not. Any clues are greatly appreciated! Thanks, Stan From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 17:28:44 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:08:47PM -0700 References: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:08:47PM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Then the machine descriptor would reflect the actual machine that the >software was designed to run on. Who says it's software? What if it's a data disk? Or a totally unknown one? Or something that's portable (e.g. an interpreted language). It just seems like it could cause trouble if the image were hard-wired to claim it's from one particular place. Especially if they get tagged incorrectly, then utilities which *could* read the disk will refuse, and ones which *can't* will screw themselves up trying because they believe the header. >I'd hate to make a "standard" that doesn't >address all the various needs of every different floppy format and then >end up having to extend the standard later or not have it adopted due to >it's limited usefulness. The opposite extreme is to not have it adopted because it's too complex to be practical. It's definitely a good thing to anticipate future needs, but I wouldn't get too hung up with the notion that this format will be all things to all people. There will always be a few oddballs out there which won't fit the framework, whatever it is. >We have the ability right now to think, argue, >recommend, specify and commit and so we might as well try to do it as >rightly as possible. Absolutely, that's why I jumped in. I've written a bunch of floppy utilities, and picturing extending any of them to work with verbose tagged free-form text files with redundant header descriptors and lots of magic numbers, is giving me a headache. One aspect of doing it right, is doing it so that it can be implemented cleanly. >I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern >host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want >the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard >turns into a big messy markup language. Careful, this is a *very* common pitfall these days. "I'll just assume that everyone in the world has access to the same modern hardware and software that I do." This was my point about Teledisk (especially since it's a bit flakey even on a real PC). If I have a Pro/350 and I want to write a DECmate II disk, there's no technical reason why I can't do it (the low-level format is the same so it's trivial), so why create an artificial limitation by depending on a big complicated C program which doesn't run on the Pro? >This is a circular specification. What you need in order to create a >"no-nonsense" archive IS the standard we are attempting to define, because >every machine will invariably have some wacky formats that won't allow a >sensible, straight-forward archive to be made. This needs to be taken >into account. IMHO, that's *their* problem. If a disk format is so weird that there isn't even any way to decide what would come first in a binary snapshot, then *that* format should have a big tangled mass of header descriptors etc. But that doesn't mean that *every* format needs to have a hairy wad of descriptors intermingled with the data. As an analogy, I *really* like the Kermit file transfer protocol. It's designed to be a very good compromise between capability and ease of implementation. There are lots of possible bells and whistles but most of the time you can get away without them. It has a few basic assumptions which don't hold true for *all* systems (files are a linear sequence of 8-bit bytes, filenames can be represented in ASCII, the serial line can pass any ASCII printing character through), but they fit the vast majority of real systems. It works around most of the common problems in file transfer, but it's simple enough that you can write a basic native Kermit implementation for almost any architecture in a few days. John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 17:39:45 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601223945.12214.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam Ismail writes: > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages that did it. I wrote: >> Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, >> any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's >> design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips >> as some of them. Sellam wrote: > 6 to be exact. 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really part of the disk controller. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 17:41:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601224154.12243.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Of course not. But because of the head orientation on Apple disk drives, > the backside of the disk is what actually holds the "side 1" data. Aside from the fact that there *isn't* a side 1, that's not different than any other 5.25-inch single-side drive. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:42:44 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... Message-ID: <20000601224244.73262.qmail@hotmail.com> FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 1 17:49:09 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! (Stan Perkins) References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> Message-ID: <14646.59493.115107.152332@phaduka.neurotica.com> Sounds like a video frame grabber to me... -Dave McGuire On June 1, Stan Perkins wrote: > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Stan From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:51:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Rumor/Legend #3 Message-ID: <20000601225145.68626.qmail@hotmail.com> Welllll... as for the whacked out missing-corner looking disks, I can confirm this... I have an ancient Memorex 651 floppy disk drive, and this thing is circa 1973-74.. And those are the disks it uses... it CANNOT use "normal" disks. FYI, there are at least two types of those disks, FD IV and FD V, not sure what the diff is but I will look it up in the manual later tonight. I have around 40 or so of those weird disks... They are also notable (IMHO) for being freakishly colored... Indeed, you can easily tell FD IV's and FD V's apart by the fact that FD IV disks are icky 70's orange, while FD V disks are a funky dark blue sort of color. I actually have 3 other clone disks from Information Terminals (the chicken company!) too, but I couldn't tell ya if they're FD IV or FD V clones.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:58:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: "Doug Coward" "Tech Rumors/Legends?" (Jun 1, 13:33) References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <10006012358.ZM14067@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 13:33, Doug Coward wrote: > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I've not heard of an EPROM used this way, but DRAMs certainly have been. It's possible, with care, to remove the metal lid from some ceramic-packaged DRAMs and add a lens. The memory cells are light sensitive; the more light, the faster the charge leaks away, so the scheme is to write 1's into all locations, pause, then read them back. Unfortunately, on most DRAMs, the relationship between logical address and physical location in the array is not simply "add 256 for the next row", so some decoding is necessary. However, at least one DRAM does have such a simple mapping, and was sold for the purpose. I'm sure it was described in one of Steve Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar articles in Byte, around 1982, but I can't find it amongst my reprints. Anyone? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:35:55 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 1, 11:10) References: Message-ID: <10006012335.ZM14057@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 11:10, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > But a lot more volumnious. But this is just my prejudice speaking. Even > though I find HTML useful, I hate it. It needn't be a whole lot more voluminous. The tags should be concise, there's no need to write an essay for each part. Keywords might be a good idea. Tags would be omitted if irrelevant (as many would be for a "raw" archive, or for a common format with no "funnies"). So a disk descriptor might look something like this: {Apple ][<00>soft<00>trks:<40><00>rpm:<15><255><00>{trk:<00><00>logical<00> length:<12><34><00>sectors:<10>{sector:<00><00>{sync{bytes:<16><00>value:<255><00>}{header:GCR<00>trk:<00><00>sec:<00><00>physsec:<00><00>head:<00><00>size:<00><01><00>}{data:< ---256 binary bytes---- >crc:<00>}}sector: [repeat as reqd] }}{track: [repeat as reqd] }} I can't remember some details like the size of a DOS 3.3 track or what the sync bytes are so that's just an stylistic example. The opening "{" marks the start of an object and is matched by a closing "}"; braces are nested because objects are nested. Variable-length strings like "Apple ][" are terminated by some agreed control character (I used ASCII NUL, <00>). Numeric values are stored in binary (actually it might make more sense to store them in ASCII where they follow a string description, but probably not for a block of sector data). So "rpm" is stored as a 2-byte representation of 360. Hmm, we'd need to decide if it's little-endian or big-endian -- or add another tag! > > a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the > > sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd > > envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly > > later mail): > > I don't like the idea of storing the actual sector data as text though. I hadn't meant to imply that; I mean you could hexify it if you wanted, but I don't see any need. Actually one of the things I was thinking of earlier today, was Acorn's "DrawFile" format, which uses similar objects, but the data is still binary (it's a computer program that reads the data, not a human). If a human really did need to read it, you could always use a hex editor. > I guess in this > day and age it doesn't matter much anymore but when I was growing up you > had to make every byte count, and I know more than 95% of us here can > relate to that. Yup, I was too, but I think here the benefits greatly outweigh the disadvantage of extra storage requirement. We want this to be as useful as possible, and the easier it is to use for unexpected formats (to create *and* to read), the more it will get used. > > It also > > means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise > > inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of > > inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same > > time, or someone rolled their own. > > I agree with that. Human readability is definitely a compelling advantage > as is the elimination of the need for a centralized database of system > descriptions. It would still be good to have a central repository. At the very least, it would allow those who know where to look, to see what has already been dealt with, and save a lot of design effort if the format they want is already there. It would be the place to store the explanation of the tag system. Plus, the bigger it gets, the more it will encourage others to archive their treasures, too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:44:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: John Wilson "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 1, 16:34) References: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <10006012344.ZM14061@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 16:34, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) > > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. This is also true on some Acorn disks, and I'm sure I've run across it elsewhere, where the "head" value encoded in each sector header is always "0", because the second side is treated as tracks 80-159 instead of each cylinder being two tracks distinguished by head number. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:57:43 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 Message-ID: <20000601225743.65115.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, if you seek to install VMS 5.2, then you have no problem... simply kindly ask me for the use of my VMS 5.2 RL02 stand-alone backup cartridge, never used, was sealed in the box when I got it... And no, the shock meter was NOT red ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:58:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <20000601225809.16350.qmail@hotmail.com> >Nice little summary article. > >From that: > >"Aquarius > >Mattel > >When Mattel demonstrated this computer at a trade show >in 1983, employees >had to conceal one of the keys with >masking tape. For some bizarre reason >known only to >Matte l engineers, the Aquarius had a convenient key >that >instantly rebooted the computer and wiped out all >your data." > >It was called the RESET key and I hated it. They at >least designed a >little ridge around it so it was harder >to accidentally press. However, I >remember you could do >a CTRL-C or some other control key sequence and >"undo" >the RESET (basially it would cancel the reset and put >you back >where you just were). > >When you first turned the Aquarius on, you had a little >intro screen that >said whatever, something like "Mattel >Aquarius" ... "Press any key to >continue". When you >pressed a key it initialized BASIC and plopped you >into a prompt. > >Pressing the RESET key apparently didn't erase the >memory but just took >you to the initial startup screen, >so it was made possible to back out of >a RESET using the >control key sequence. > >Sellam International Man >of Intrigue and >Danger >--------------------------------------------------------->---------------------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for >details! One thing I'm surprised that did not make it onto that list it the Macintosh Portable (it probably was #21 or thereabouts). If the DG/1 required Superman to pick it up, I don't want to know who they would have required to pick it up! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:00:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Who says it's software? What if it's a data disk? Or a totally > unknown one? Or something that's portable (e.g. an interpreted > language). It just seems like it could cause trouble if the image > were hard-wired to claim it's from one particular place. Especially > if they get tagged incorrectly, then utilities which *could* read the > disk will refuse, and ones which *can't* will screw themselves up > trying because they believe the header. In that case perhaps we can have generic group meta codes, such as "CP/M", etc. > The opposite extreme is to not have it adopted because it's too complex to > be practical. It's definitely a good thing to anticipate future needs, but > I wouldn't get too hung up with the notion that this format will be all > things to all people. There will always be a few oddballs out there which > won't fit the framework, whatever it is. Yes, but in it's current iteration it is not very complex at all. Detailed, yes. Complex, no. It's being designed to allow a very simple, straight foward archive to be created in the case of no special considerations (i.e. a "standard" floppy disk) while still being powerful enough to allow a very bizarre format to be described as well. I think the balance is being achieved. > Absolutely, that's why I jumped in. I've written a bunch of floppy > utilities, and picturing extending any of them to work with verbose tagged > free-form text files with redundant header descriptors and lots of magic > numbers, is giving me a headache. One aspect of doing it right, is doing > it so that it can be implemented cleanly. Agreed. > >I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern > >host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want > >the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard > >turns into a big messy markup language. > > Careful, this is a *very* common pitfall these days. "I'll just assume > that everyone in the world has access to the same modern hardware and > software that I do." I don't imagine anyone will be attempting to create a multi-gigabyte archive on a Sinclair ZX80. The point is this archive will be carried forward onto ever more powerful computers, and limiting it to be feasible on technology that has long been passed by makes no sense to me. Linux will run on a 386, a 68K Mac, an Atari ST, and the Amiga. I'm satisfied with that. > This was my point about Teledisk (especially since it's a bit flakey even > on a real PC). If I have a Pro/350 and I want to write a DECmate II disk, > there's no technical reason why I can't do it (the low-level format is the > same so it's trivial), so why create an artificial limitation by depending > on a big complicated C program which doesn't run on the Pro? Take the specification and write an archive application that will run on the Pro/350. As stated above, the standard as it is being defined is not difficult to implement. And as I mentioned before, I'm considering writing a DOS application to implement the standrad once it's near completion. The point is I don't see this as a legitimate concern. The standard is not currently constructed to require a computer with gobs of memory, even if it does evolve into a markup language. > IMHO, that's *their* problem. If a disk format is so weird that there isn't > even any way to decide what would come first in a binary snapshot, then *that* > format should have a big tangled mass of header descriptors etc. But that > doesn't mean that *every* format needs to have a hairy wad of descriptors > intermingled with the data. I agree, and the way I am seeing the standard evolve will not require massive headers for standard formatted disks. It may not look like it now but that is what is in the back of my mind as we move forward with this. We're still really in the gathering phase so don't get frustrated just yet. As statedin so many words before, the standard will be designed intelligently enough to archive a standard diskette in a simple, straight forward manner, but also allow the complexity to archive a completely non-standard diskette. > As an analogy, I *really* like the Kermit file transfer protocol. It's > designed to be a very good compromise between capability and ease of > implementation. There are lots of possible bells and whistles but > most of the time you can get away without them. It has a few basic > assumptions which don't hold true for *all* systems (files are a > linear sequence of 8-bit bytes, filenames can be represented in ASCII, > the serial line can pass any ASCII printing character through), but > they fit the vast majority of real systems. It works around most of > the common problems in file transfer, but it's simple enough that you > can write a basic native Kermit implementation for almost any > architecture in a few days. We'll try to develop this standard in the same spirit. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:02:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601223945.12214.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam Ismail writes: > > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > > If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages > that did it. I'll take your word for it. > Sellam wrote: > > 6 to be exact. > > 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really > part of the disk controller. Oh well, I usually get the number wrong no matter how many times I look at a ][ controller. At any rate, it's amazing. I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 1 18:07:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> from "Stan Perkins" at Jun 01, 2000 03:22:19 PM Message-ID: <200006012307.QAA26576@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots. > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones on there. > Any clues are greatly appreciated! Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a 68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93 http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris or a Quadra. Zane From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:17:00 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC Message-ID: Here's something I pondered the other day: Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? ^^^^ Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell under the designation of "AppleSoft". Something tells me Eric may know this. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 18:23:59 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com><14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20000531190346.16843.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3936F08E.A4B31B91@cheta.net> I run Netscape Communicator 4.7 on my 25mhz single-processor SparcStation 330 and don't think performance is horrible. It takes about 90 seconds to launch Netscape but only four seconds to launch subsequent copies. For an 11 year-old machine it is excellent! I say this in response to your comment about the relative nature of the term 'acceptable performance'. My AMD k63-400 running OS/2 Warp 4 takes less than a second to launch Netscape 4.61 from scratch..... Jason McBrien wrote: > I've got several machines I use for different purposes. I've got a 700MHz > Athlon with Windoze 'cause Unreal Tournament just sucks on a DECStation 5000 > :) But the DEC makes a really nice webserver, and the SPARCStation 10 can > run Netscape SuiteSpot servers OK but I wouldn't want to run Communicator on > it. > (Netscape is comparatively slow on my Ultra 10 at work) A place for > everything and everything in it's place. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: Finds > > > On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to > > > give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my > opinions > > > of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) > > > > > > Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. > > > > While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation > > of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of > > us fight very hard to keep it alive. > > > > But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely > > subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for > > Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe > > that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the > > only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of > > high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than > > one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. > > > > Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, > > and more power to you! > > > > > > -Dave McGuire > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:35:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 1, 0 02:03:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/da280158/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:38:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 1, 0 02:08:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 961 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/ce763b76/attachment-0001.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Jun 1 18:52:18 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> My two cents, in decreasing order of sanity. Maybe it's a little far from the original goal*, but for the cost of a few extra bytes in track/sector numbers, the same format might handle the contents of hard disks. And there's probably a lot fewer "whacko" formatting concerns with those than with floppies - 99.44% of the time, just getting a big pile of sectors might be as much as you'd need. AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. And machines that used hard disks didn't generally fixate on the number of tracks or sectors. (How much of that is true? Discussion?) My reaction to XML et al is generally negative too, and also not for any good reason that I could put my finger on. Maybe it seems like it would be work to parse, and I like to imagine my poor old 8-bitters being able to make use of the images themselves, not just the recipients of an end-product that was produced by a modern machine that digested the image. As I said, it's not entirely a rational concern; those old 8-bitters could do it just as well as any modern machine, given enough time and storage and programming... Maybe that's it, coding up an XML parser for a CoCo seems like it would be much more work than having some byte-by-byte record definition. So maybe you XML supporters need to hit that point a little harder. Speaking of which, maybe some compressed representation of repeated identical sectors could be good. If a floppy was 10% full, and the remaining sectors were full of some "empty" byte pattern, It would be nice if those "empty" sectors didn't take up space in the image. Of course, the image could just omit sectors, but then you'd need intelligence to decide which sectors to omit; almost as bad as needing to know which files to keep. The only way to be safe is to get it all, and maybe take advantage of patterns in the data to compress it a bit. Then again, if I care about image size, I suppose I could always use any standard compression utility on the image. And then I'd want to get decompression going on the TRS-80... Okay, I think it's time to stop babbling. Bill. * I'm _not_ going to make any bad puns about being on the wrong track. :-) On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:34:55, Sellam Ismail wrote: ] Current iteration: ] ] Desk Descriptor Header ] ] 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) ] 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) ] 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) ] 4. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] ] ] Optional: ] ] 5. Archiver Name (24 bytes) ] 6. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) ] 7. Disk Title (64 bytes) ] 8. Publisher (if applicable) (24 bytes) ] 9. Year of Publication (2 bytes) ] A. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) ] B. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) ] C. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) ] ] ***Does it make sense to have separate fields as specified #7-9 or should ] we rely upon the archivist to include that data in the description? I ] think so since this is important information that should be forced to be ] included with the archive. ] ] Maximum size: 685 bytes ] ] [1] If applicable ] ] Note: Encoding type moved to Track Descriptor Header ] ] ] A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall ] description of the track: ] ] Track Descriptor Header ] ] 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] ] 2. Disk Side (1 byte) ] 3. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] ] 4. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] ] 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) ] 6. Encoding type (1 byte) ] 7. Sectors in this track (1 byte) ] 8. Interleave (1 byte) ] 9. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) ] A. Bits per byte (1 byte) ] B. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) ] ] Size: 15 bytes ] ] [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. ] [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-9 are ignored. ] [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. ] ] ] I can start to see where the flexibility afforded by a markup language ] makes sense. I just can't figure out why I am still resisting it though. ] ] So, are we on the right track? The wrong track? ] ] Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ] Looking for a six in a pile of nines... ] ] Coming soon: VCF 4.0! ] VCF East: Planning in Progress ] See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 18:58:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000601235835.15224.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Now, which of those you consider to be part of the disk controller I > don't know... Arguably the boot PROM isn't part of the disk controller; it is still perfectly capable of controlling disks without it. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 19:13:26 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu>; from yakowenk@cs.unc.edu on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400 References: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20000601201326.A23652@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- >protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. I've never seen anything like that in person either, but I've heard of PDP-11 software (for an MRI machine I think?) which did do copy protection using bad sectors on a DP: (-emulating) hard disk. Weird... John Wilson D Bit From jlewczyk at his.com Thu Jun 1 19:54:49 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:22 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. Can anybody help? [ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] Thanks, John - jlewczyk@his.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 20:03:47 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> (jlewczyk@his.com) References: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <20000602010347.10673.qmail@brouhaha.com> "John Lewczyk" asks about the 8530: > A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know > how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff > on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. > [ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] http://www.amd.com/products/npd/techdocs/techdocs.html Near the bottom of the page is a technical manual covering the 8530H and 85C30, and a data sheet and errata sheet on the 85C30. Note that the 85C30 has some additional features that were not available in the NMOS/HMOS part; these should be called out in the docs. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:45:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 1, 0 06:28:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/88cccad7/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:48:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006012335.ZM14057@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 1, 0 10:35:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/0b502409/attachment-0001.ksh From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 20:13:09 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Copy Protection was Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> <20000601201326.A23652@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39370A25.22E0BCC6@cheta.net> Oh God. The Atari 8-bit was probably king of disk copy protection and the means to break/duplicate that protection. There were long sectors, short sectors , fuzzy sectors, long tracks, short tracks, error sectors, holes in the disk burned by a laser, phantom sectors, crc error sectors, and only HE knows how many others. Some sectors gave different errors at different times, some only appeared at certain times. It was an unbelievably complex, babylon back then. There were hardware mods such as the Happy and the Archiver chipset replacements which would duplicate these difficult disks, software such as the 'black patch' which would remove the protection by patching the maker's code. It was a bloody war. I guess we won for about ten years but protection is back on cd's and we are expected to be willing to buy crippled cd writers which will obey the protection marks. Yea right. Hey Bob Puff! Are you listening? I bet you can come up with a circuit to defeat the code embedded in these drives if anyone can. Directly in answer to the below quote, I have run into software on hard disk that could not be moved from it's spot, or 'ghosted' to another drive. I think this hard drive-based protection scheme went out when operating systems no longer allowed primitive disk access (OS/2, Unix, Windos NT, etcetera). John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > >AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- > >protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. > > I've never seen anything like that in person either, but I've heard > of PDP-11 software (for an MRI machine I think?) which did do copy > protection using bad sectors on a DP: (-emulating) hard disk. Weird... > > John Wilson > D Bit From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 20:19:55 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC References: Message-ID: <39370BBB.DF8F90B6@cheta.net> Maybe Microsoft wrote it but I thought that Shepherdson Microsystems had a hand in Apple's Basic as well as writing ProDos. I will poke around for that info. A few months ago I ran across a website which gave a lot of the history of Shepherdson (later Optimized Systems Software). Sellam Ismail wrote: > Here's something I pondered the other day: > > Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > ^^^^ > Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? > I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell > under the designation of "AppleSoft". > > Something tells me Eric may know this. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 20:24:17 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian>; from jlewczyk@his.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 08:54:49PM -0400 References: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <20000601212417.A23802@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 08:54:49PM -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know >how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff >on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. Really? Last time I cared (a few months ago) I had no trouble finding it on Zilog's web site. IIRC they had a single unified doc for all of their SCC chips, and you had to download the chapters as individual PDFs. I've got 'em (about 1.3 MB total), as well as the AMD Am85C30 and Am85C30A PDFs, if you want them just tell me how to send them (email, FTP, etc.). John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Thu Jun 1 22:03:39 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Apple ][ floppy controller/6502 doesn't decode the bytes at the floppy rotation speed. The 6502 copies the encoded bytes (de-serialized by the controller) into memory, then decodes them after the sector has been read. The sector interleave guarantees enough time to decode the data before the next sector is available to be read. I agree, it is an interesting piece of code... clint On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Sellam Ismail writes: > > > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > > > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > > > > If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages > > that did it. > > I'll take your word for it. > > > Sellam wrote: > > > 6 to be exact. > > > > 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really > > part of the disk controller. > > Oh well, I usually get the number wrong no matter how many times I look at > a ][ controller. At any rate, it's amazing. > > I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one > of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > From jruschme at mac.com Thu Jun 1 22:43:25 2000 From: jruschme at mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <200006020104.UAA18144@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > From: Stan Perkins > Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: If it's what I think, it's actually a PPC 601 PDS (processor direct slot) card. > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) Not that old... but none the less... > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. Sounds like the AV card for the 1st-generation (NUBUS) PowerMacs (6100/7100/8100). > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. More likely, someone removed it from an AV 6100 to install the DOS card. Interesting find, though... > Any clues are greatly appreciated! You're welcome. <<>> From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 1 17:21:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> >Sellam Ismail writes: >> But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something >> tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > >If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages >that did it. Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. Allison From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Jun 1 23:14:27 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: <20000601224244.73262.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a schematic somewhere? Also, why was this considered such an engineering achievement? Thanks! -mac On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of > his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... > > Will J From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 1 23:19:19 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601152223.00ca8660@208.226.86.10> References: Message-ID: <200006020416.e524GHO20790@grover.winsite.com> I also got this from not only Bob Cringely when I read his book and interviewed him , but also when I interviewed Forrest Mims, who was one of the co-founders of MITS and has also written a boatload of magazine articles and ton of project books for Radio Shack. Forrest also said that his first impression of the Microsoft Children was that they were loud and spoiled and complained a lot. Doesn't sound like much has changed...... The Altair on the cover of the Jan 75 PE is a mockup....just a case with the front panel that was cobbled together in a hurry after the original was lost so that they would have something to photograph. BTW....how many of us have that issue? I have both Jan and Feb, and also the Altair 6800 issue. Tried several years ago at Comdex to get Billy G to sign one of the later ones that offered MITS BASIC, but the man has more layers of "people" who treat him like God than the President does..... Date sent: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:25:30 -0700 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org From: Chuck McManis Subject: Re: Tech Rumors/Legends? Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics > > > was the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was > > > returned. MITS was forced to recreate large portions of the design > > > from scratch and thus delayed first shipments. > > > >Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The > >only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that > >is second-hand. > > Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer > club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a > Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member > with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article > to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and > was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while. > > --Chuck > > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 1 20:34:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip Message-ID: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> >A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know >how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff >on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. 8530 is the Zilog SCC chip, as is the 8030. The differ only in bus interface. The 8530 is the non multiplexed bus part. It's a dual channel serial device with DMA and interrupt logic for Z80 series cpus. Programming of the functions are similar to Z80 SIO and related parts in a general way. It's a nontrivial device to use. Contact Zilog for data or check their page under SCC. >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. Allison From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu Jun 1 23:38:38 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... Message-ID: <20000602043954.WXCN2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Mike Cheponis > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:14 AM > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > schematic somewhere? If you want to see a nice picture, see eBay auction 341188950 (ends June 3). From dastar at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 23:37:11 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <200006020342.UAA07836@siconic.com> I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. I'd also like to get a hold of the box the whistle came in. I'm also looking for the October 1971 issue of Esquire magazine that featured the article with John Draper talking about the "blue box". If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me directly at . Thanks! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Jun 2 00:49:04 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000a01bfcc56$42874bc0$013da8c0@Corellian> > 8530 is the Zilog SCC chip, as is the 8030. The differ only in bus interface. > The 8530 is the non multiplexed bus part. > > It's a dual channel serial device with DMA and interrupt logic for Z80 > series cpus. Programming of the functions are similar to Z80 SIO > and related parts in a general way. It's a nontrivial device to use. > >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other > devices. ] > > > You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. Yep. I see the chip on the Lisa IO board and my Mac Logic boards! John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Jun 2 00:43:43 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip Message-ID: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] > > You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. > > Allison I'm sure. It's in the Mac from day one, in Sun workstations since at least the Sun3 era (and still in one form or another in various sun4c boxes) and in every 68K-based product Software Results made after the Unibus products (the original boards used the COM5025 like the DEC DPV11? DUV11?) I will admit that it is not friendly to the MC68K bus. We used one or two dedicated PALs to handle the interfacing. Additionally, we had an 8Mhz CPU (10Mhz for the VAXBI model), but back when the Z8530 was new, 4Mhz parts were available and later some 6Mhz, but 8Mhz parts didn't come along until way later, long after our designs were done. There's lots of notes in the COMBOARD source code about not wacking on the Z8530 too fast. Eventually, we developed a kind of serial driver to handle swabbing registers, but the first products just used macros to always space out the time between telling the Z8530 which internal register to select and reading/writing that register. Personally, I think it's a cool chip, much cooler than the 8250/16450/16550 family. In addition to an async console for debugging, we pumped 3780, HASP and SNA traffic over them up to 128Kbps (our fastest modem eliminator speed). We only ever sold products for use at 56Kbps (64Kbps in Europe). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From mrdos at swbell.net Fri Jun 2 01:02:35 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: HP 7000 - What is it? Message-ID: <004b01bfcc58$27252f80$54703ed8@compaq> Does anyone know anything about a HP 7000 Series computer? I don't know a lot about old HP systems. Do y'all think it's worth getting? Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/35468385/attachment-0001.html From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 01:01:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000602060118.12861.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The Apple ][ floppy controller/6502 doesn't decode the bytes at the > floppy rotation speed. The 6502 copies the encoded bytes (de-serialized > by the controller) into memory, then decodes them after the sector > has been read. The sector interleave guarantees enough time to decode > the data before the next sector is available to be read. The whole point of this thread is that it *IS* possible for cleverly written code to do 1:1 interleave without the bounce buffer. > I agree, it is an interesting piece of code... It's even *more* interesting. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 01:02:44 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <20000602060244.21738.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal >whistles that >could produce the 2600Hz tone. If you >know the story of John Draper >(a.k.a. Cap'n Crunch) then >you know what I'm talking about. > >I'd also like to get a hold of the box the whistle came >in. I'm also >looking for the October 1971 issue of >Esquire magazine that featured the >article with John >Draper talking about the "blue box". > >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, >please e-mail me >directly at . > >Thanks! > >Sellam International Man >of Intrigue and >Danger >--------------------------------------------------------->---------------------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for >details! I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. Best of luck either way. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 01:04:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000602060449.12908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years > earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board > either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. Yes. But the part that makes Woz's design interesting is that he did it *without* an FDC, and it only ended up as seven TTL chips *total* (eight if you include the boot PROM). With an FDC chip, there's certainly a range of design styles available; I've seen simple and reasonably elegant designs, and gross disgusting kludges. But the most elegant FDC-based design is still not even in the same class as Woz's design. Note that I'm not claiming that Woz's method would be the right thing to do today. But at the time he did it, it was awesome. From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 2 01:10:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... References: Message-ID: <003101bfcc59$3d11de00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Tony Duell listed them earlier today. There's a schematic in the patent, IIRC. You can always look that up. This particular design was a noteworthy engineering achievement because of two factors. (1) Apple was able to replace the more costly logic board on the drive with one of their own making, which saved a sizeable share of the then still quite costly Shugart SA400 drives, and (2) this scheme which used the local processor to do a lot of the work, including controlling the stepping of the head, also provided DOUBLE DENSITY, which, if one used the usual approach, i.e. a FDC LSI of one sort or another, would cost about $80 at the time, and that was just for the one IC. It required a fair amount of support, a minimum of five or six additional IC's to provide head-load timing, drive and receive the cable, extract clock from the incoming bit stream, and perform the write precompensation. In the technology of the time, it was not uncommon to see a dozen IC's involved. Some systems even provided a DMAC to ensure they tansferred the data quickly enough. In short is was better because it was way cheaper than the conventional design. It worked rather well, too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:14 PM Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > schematic somewhere? > > Also, why was this considered such an engineering achievement? > > Thanks! -mac > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > > > FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of > > his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... > > > > Will J > From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 00:20:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: <20000602060244.21738.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for > them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other > phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" > from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some > free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work > for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. C'mon, give me a break. I don't even think the youngest of fools can be that naive :) No, this is purely for historical reasons. I'm developing an exhibit around the now legendary (and now very useless) "blue box". Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 2 03:14:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) References: Message-ID: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2, 0:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > {Apple ][<00>soft<00>trks:<40><00>rpm:<15><255><00>{trk:<00><00>logical<00> > > length:<12><34><00>sectors:<10>{sector:<00><00>{sync{bytes:<16><00>value:<255><00>}{header:GCR<00>trk:<00><00>sec:<00><00>physsec:<00><00>head:<00><00>size:<00><01><00>}{data:< > > ---256 binary bytes---- >crc:<00>}}sector: [repeat as reqd] > > }}{track: [repeat as reqd] }} > > Actually, that seems to give you the worst of all worlds.... > > The 'tags' are in ascii, so they're long, hard to search for, etc. And > yet the data is in binary, so the file is not printable. You can't cat it > to the screen to read the header information. No, but you can easily see it in any sensible editor (my definition of "sensible" has always included the ability to show binary or at least control characters :-))... > I must admit that I find files containing printable text information > mixed up with binary data to be _very_ annoying unless there's a good > reason for doing it. > > If you must use some kind of markup language, at least encode the data as > strings of hex digits, or base-64 encoding or something like that. I don't have any objection to that, in fact I'm inclined to agree, but I felt others don't want to take up more space than necessary. If encoded, I'd go for base64. It's the most efficient of the common schemes (hex, uuencoded, base64), has none of the ambiguities of uuencode (there are some very broken uu..code implementations around, because it's not fully specified), and if anyone does want to read it manually, a decoder is only a few lines of . On the other hand, hex has some advantages: easy to read, very easy to {en,de}code, and it would be more appropriate, perhaps, for binary values in tags (assuming the values weren't just written in ASCII in the first place). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 2 07:18:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Personally, I think it's a cool chip, much cooler than the 8250/16450/16550 Hate 8250 and friends. I'd use S2681 before using an 8250. I do use a lot of 8251s (of part for async). The NEC D7201, Z80-SIO and the SCC however are majorly nice, though complex chips to use. All are fast. I consider the use of the 8250 and clones on PCs to a be a significant limitor of good comm performance. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 2 07:18:33 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <36.6ae4465.26690019@aol.com> In a message dated 6/2/00 2:31:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > > I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for > > them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other > > phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" > > from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some > > free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work > > > for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. > > C'mon, give me a break. I don't even think the youngest of fools can be > that naive :) > > No, this is purely for historical reasons. I'm developing an exhibit > around the now legendary (and now very useless) "blue box". > > Sellam back then, the telco used electromechanical systems which were easy to hack and get away with. nowadays, it's electronic with much more automation and security so its harder to cover one's tracks. i think red boxes still work, but some COCOTs have been modifed to prevent this. DB Young hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 2 07:26:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000602060449.12908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Allison wrote: > > Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years > > earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board > > either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. > > Yes. But the part that makes Woz's design interesting is that he did > it *without* an FDC, and it only ended up as seven TTL chips *total* > (eight if you include the boot PROM). Well the NS* controller does NOT use an FDC. IF you kick out the bus interface (apple for the most part has none) and the fact that apple used a tweeked disk drive too the NS* controller is really simple with the core being less than 8 or so chips. Of course back in '77 current ttl s100 interfaces usually added 5-7 chips to any IO design. > With an FDC chip, there's certainly a range of design styles available; > I've seen simple and reasonably elegant designs, and gross disgusting > kludges. But the most elegant FDC-based design is still not even in > the same class as Woz's design. I don't know, I"d done a few 765 designs (especially 37c65) that were low on parts and programatically one heck of a lot lighter on the cpu and memory. Though the best one was my first as that was only 11 chips for the whole S100 board and did all FDC standards for 8", 5.25" and 3.5" (excluding off data rate 1.2mb). Stll use that one. > Note that I'm not claiming that Woz's method would be the right thing > to do today. But at the time he did it, it was awesome. Yep, it was cheap. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 2 07:31:17 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD8D@TEGNTSERVER> > I don't think that would work. I've cooked EPROMs for months > without any change in their functioning. So did a partner of mine.... using a homemade eraser made from a UV sterilizer unit taken from a scrapped dialysis machine. It was an Intel eprom, a 2732 or 2764, ceramic case, quartz window. The embedded system we were developing was an auto- mated knife sharpener (not to be a consumer product). During debugging, we had the prototype out of the case. Things were working fine and it was time for the first install into the van (which would drive from restaurant to restaurant doing the knife sharpening thing). Put unit in case, fire up, no operation. Take unit out of case, fire it up, everything works. We looked for warping of the PC board, kinking of cables, and all sort of things that coould glitch the unit out. Nada. Finally, thinking that we were only going to see how the case was screwing with the PC board from inside the assembled unit, we cut an access panel in the aluminum, and shined a flashlight inside. It happened to hit the EPROM window and voila! the unit starts running. After a long call with Intel engineers, it was determined that too much UV could fry the EPROM such that it would only function correctly when light was shining onto the substrate through the window! An EPROM that was afraid of the dark. To get the prototype out the door, we built it a night-lite, and everything was fine. -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 2 07:33:10 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD8E@TEGNTSERVER> Sounds like a cache card for a PowerPC-based Mac. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Perkins [mailto:stan@netcom.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:22 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the > list! > > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat > pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F > connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors > labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Stan > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jun 2 07:52:12 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? Message-ID: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ divide with them. ------- From owad at applefritter.com Fri Jun 2 08:55:16 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC Message-ID: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > ^^^^ >Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? >I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell >under the designation of "AppleSoft". "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. As in the Apple T-Shirt of fame bearing the dialog box: __________________________________________________ | | | Sorry the AppleSoft engineer "unknown" | | has unexpectedly quit | | | | [Who Cares] [Do Something] | | \ | |__________________________________________________| Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 2 10:26:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? Message-ID: <000602112652.20200edb@trailing-edge.com> Daniel Seagraves wrote, in his classic style of leaving the body of the message devoid of any any actual context as to what he's asking about and requiring a reference to the Subject line: >Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. A *very* popular book for introducing this subject to students these days is _Computer Arithmetic: Algorithms and Hardware Designs_, by Behrooz Parhami. It's a pedantic, general purpose introduction, with an emphasis on conveying a true understanding of the subject through how the bits are actually banged about. An even more pedantic introduction is Donald Knuth's _The Art of Computer Programming, Vol 1: Fundamental Algorithms_. It's probably not so good as a introduction if you're really unfamiliar with the subject already, but it's a true classic in the field, and anyone who has worked in the field goes back to it every so often for some deep insight. For example, I just browsed through it a couple days ago for some grokking of how negative number base arithmetic works. Neat feature: no sign bit necessary! Another good reference, if you've already got some experience with computer architecture books and want to leverage this knowledge, is the IEEE Tutorial titled simply _Computer Arithmetic_ and edited by Earl E. Swartzlander. There's also Kai Hwang's _Computer Arithmetic: Principles, Architecture, and Design_ and Israel Koren's _Computer Arithmetic Algorithms_. I suspect that you just want a cheat-sheet for a few specific applications, in which case there's probably a Schaum's outline paperback that will get you by but without conveying any real understanding about how it works or why it works the way it does. I'm sure your local library has some similar workbook-style textbooks. Perhaps intermediate between the dumbed-down level of Schaum's Outlines and the high-and-lofty ivory tower view of Knuth would be a good numerical analysis text intended for scientists who have to learn the basics of how computers do arithmetic, and how this differs from traditional school-book arithmetic. _Numerical Recipes_ doesn't quite fit the bill, but when I was an undergrad I took several numerical analysis courses and all the textbooks had good, but terse, introductions to computer arithmetic, both fixed and floating-point. Again, I'm sure your local library has some good books. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:16:49 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <20000602161649.87779.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm, if someone writes a way to do all the archiving, I'd be happy to provide my 4381 for some serious processing power ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 2 11:21:16 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: If you want to archive old 16mm or 8mm movies then VHS is not the way to go. My wife's uncle has made movies of family functions for the last 50 years. I have watched them, lots of 16mm film loading and rewinding involved. He transferred them to VHS about 5 years ago. We did keep the originals. We have had lengthy discussions of how to preserve them for the next 50 years. The 5 year old VHS copies are convenient to view but we can now start to see the loss of crispness due to data bleed-through. There is also a loss of color fidelity. We have discussed CD-ROM and other digital media. Our goal is to keep them for another 100 years and then let the next generation worry about them. It's amazing to see the progression of the development of our lake community in the movies, members of our family have lived here for 72 years. Boats have changed a lot. We keep coming back to analog photographic film, partly because of cost, mainly because of stability. I am investigating how to save/archive photographs from our community that span from 1928, no lake and no water, until now. Saving the photos is easy, recording who is in them is the hard part. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. I helped the community computerized our records about 8 years ago. Up until then we used bound paper ledgers. For historical reasons the ledgers are invaluable because each page reflects then entire history of a lot/home from the original plat until today. We have evolved from DBASE, to Peachtree databases, to Access databases. A computer database is no help to try to figure out why the sewer line was run through my yard and not on the sewer easement in 1960. Written notes in the ledger help me to understand that the rock was in the way and that hand digging was easier through my yard. Now if you want to know why one house is constructed over the water and not on shore that is another story. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Mike Slow day in computer land. From dastar at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 11:26:16 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane Message-ID: <200006021532.IAA08513@siconic.com> I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate bridge and an airplane flying over it: http://www.siconic.com/crap/ascii_bridge.jpg It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. It's yellowed with age because it had been hanging on the wall of the person who originally printed it for I believe a couple decades or so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Jun 2 17:26:39 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L Message-ID: Hello, Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 2 11:48:09 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>; from DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 05:52:12AM -0700 References: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20000602124809.A25127@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 05:52:12AM -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. I'll assume you mean integer math. ADD -- I hope I get this right: For each bit, you have the two input bits, plus one sum output, and also one carry in and one carry out. For the LSB, carry in is zero. The sum output is the XOR of all three inputs (A, B, Cin), i.e. a change in any input will toggle it. The Cout bit is set any time 2 or more of the three inputs are set, so whatever that works out to (the OR of the three possible ANDs would do it, but maybe there's an easier way). SUB: This is done by adding, with one of the inputs (hmm, is "subtrahend" the word???) negated. Two's complement negation is done by complementing all the bits and then adding one. And you can add the one by playing with the Cin bit to the LSB (my mind is going blank, I can't think whether it has to be 1 or 0, the sense of the carry is inverted when subtracting in this way). MUL: This is unsigned, for signed you have to take the absolute value and then negate the result if the XOR of the input sign bits is 1. It works exactly like multiplication by hand, except that you do it in binary, which means you're just multiplying by 0 or 1 so the whole multiplication table can be summed up with the AND operation: - init sum to 0 - cycle through all the bits in A (doesn't matter which order), and for each bit that's a 1, add in B shifted left by that number of places. So really, just AND all the bits of B with that bit, shift it left to the same position, and add it to the sum. - you're done DIV: Once again this is unsigned, signed DIV instructions typically do funny things with the sign of the remainder so check that carefully. Again it works just like long division by hand, only in binary. So instead of wondering how many times the divisor (?) goes into the dividend (?), you just wonder whether it goes in at *all*, since you know the answer for each bit will just be 0 or 1. So you can do it with a comparator and a subtractor, or you can always subtract and decide whether to keep the result depending on whether it borrowed: - init remainder to 0 - for all bits in the dividend, shift one bit left, filling the LSB with a 0 and shifting the bit out of the MSB into the LSB of the remainder (you lose the MSB but it's always 0) - if the remainder is .GE. the divisor, subtract the divisor from the remainder and change the LSB of the (shifted) dividend from 0 to 1 (i.e. INC it) When you're done, the remainder is correct, and what was the dividend is now the quotient. You could have assembled the quotient in its own register (since you're generating it one bit at a time), but those LSBs of the dividend are never used again so this is a cute way to do it all with one shift, and leads to a very short routine in PDP-11 code (11 instructions IIRC). Floating point */+- is exactly the same, but you have to worry about adding and removing leading 1s (in formats that do that), chopping vs. rounding of the LSB, and fixing the exponents to match. MUL and DIV are actually the easiest, since all you have to do is add or sub the exponents and then do the integer * or / operation on the mantissa, you can normalize it again in just one or two shifts. With + and - you have to worry about shifting to align the binary points before you start, and if the exponents are different by more than the size of the mantissa there will be no overlap at all so you have to ignore one or the other argument, depending on the FPU's rounding rules. Once you align the points, do the + or -, and now you have to worry about shifting left to re-normalize. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 2 12:06:38 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, > >Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do >anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. > >Kind regards >-- >Gary Hildebrand > > >ghldbrd@ccp.com | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 2 12:08:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, > >Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do >anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. Well, I've used a Exabyte 8500 on my Amiga 3000, so I would think a 8505XL should work. However, a RZ24L is a low profile 245MB DEC Hard Drive, not a Tape Drive! That's one confused sounding system! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 2 13:27:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602112422.00db91d0@208.226.86.10> At 04:26 PM 6/2/00 -0600, you wrote: >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. This leads to only a couple of possible conclusions: 1) you have a hard disk and the tape drive with the same SCSI ID the disk answered the INQUIRY command, the tape is confused because it keeps getting disk type commands. 2) Someone has told the tape drive it is a disk because they were originally trying to whack the code pages of an RZ24L to make it talk 512 byte (vs 576) byte sectors but they got their SCSI IDs (or bus ids) wrong and rewrote the code page of the tape drive instead. Weird in either case! --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 2 14:56:42 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000602145436.01fa2460@pc> Regarding recording data on analog 35mm film, below is a recent excerpt from a microscopy mailing list, where people were discussing the use of film to record detail, as opposed to CCD imaging techniques: > To begin to answer Jeremy's question directly, we need to know > how much detail a Technical Pan negative can record. The figures > depend on processing technique and the test object luminance and > contrast, but the modulation transfer function figures published by > Kodak indicate that a spatial frequency in excess of 200 cycles per > mm is easily recordable. For a test object with contrast 100:1 they > quote 320 line pairs per mm. The CCD pixel spacing required to > achieve this feat would be 640 pixels per mm. That equates to a > requirement for 15360 x 23040 pixels to match the resolving power > of a 24x36mm Technical Pan exposure. That's 0.35 Giga pixels in > round numbers. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 15:31:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >If you want to archive old 16mm or 8mm movies then VHS is not the way to go. >My wife's uncle has made movies of family functions for the last 50 years. >I have watched them, lots of 16mm film loading and rewinding involved. He You seem to have in abundance the most critical ingredient, INTEREST. Well maybe its more commitment, but for many preservation projects people want to do it, but it isn't a holy grail search. Time and money may flow unevenly, and most often squabbles on the details results in a single person having the project dumped on them. When I do our "family" project, its going to be film to CDR, followed by a survey of all who get the CDR of who is in what pictures. I will "try" to preserve as much of the original film sources as I can, but each time something happens (mouse, bug, temp, humidity) a lot of damage can occur. As each year goes by the likelyhood of someone wanting to go back to the original film keeps getting smaller and smaller. I worry if I don't have it done soon, nobody will be alive that wants to see it, or has any clue to who is who. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 15:55:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >Hello all, > >I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > >APPLE COMPUTER INC. >820-0510-A c1993 Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066 Apple part# 820-0510-A Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac 61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a camcorder or VCR for editing and playback. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 2 15:23:21 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane In-Reply-To: <200006021532.IAA08513@siconic.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate >bridge and an airplane flying over it: >It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is >roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the largest file: FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. - John From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 15:07:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <39370BBB.DF8F90B6@cheta.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Technoid Mutant wrote: > Maybe Microsoft wrote it but I thought that Shepherdson Microsystems > had a hand in Apple's Basic as well as writing ProDos. > > I will poke around for that info. A few months ago I ran across a > website which gave a lot of the history of Shepherdson (later > Optimized Systems Software). Here it is: http://www.laughton.com/Apple/Apple.html It's a nice little historyon Apple DOS. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 17:12:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: <200006020342.UAA07836@siconic.com> Message-ID: >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could >produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. >Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me >directly at . http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346814958 Bid is $19 so far. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 2 16:18:05 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane" (Jun 2, 15:23) References: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> Message-ID: <10006022218.ZM15040@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2, 15:23, John Foust wrote: > I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from > someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the > largest file: > > FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > > where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be > glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > > By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and > the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. I'd like copies of these, if you can make them available... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcruse at acm.org Fri Jun 2 16:34:20 2000 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:23 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane References: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> Message-ID: <3938285C.74ED85B3@acm.org> Hi John, I'd like to get copies of any or all of those if you have them handy, Thanks, Mike John Foust wrote: > At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate > >bridge and an airplane flying over it: > >It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is > >roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. > > I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from > someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the > largest file: > > FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > > where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be > glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > > By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and > the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. > > - John From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 15:37:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could > >produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. > >Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. > > >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me > >directly at . > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346814958 > > Bid is $19 so far. I already looked on eBay but I have no idea if those are THE whistle I'm looking for. I've gotten a couple clues so far: 1) it was "saucer" shaped 2) it had three holes (you plugged the third to get 2600hz) The one shown in the auction above does not fit the description I'm going off of. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 17:27:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> (message from Tom Owad on Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:55:16 -0400) References: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000602222722.20820.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? >> ^^^^ >> Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? >> I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell >> under the designation of "AppleSoft". > "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. Not until *many* years later. In 1977 it was only the name of the BASIC interpreter (as distinct from "Integer BASIC"). From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 2 17:40:09 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: <20000602043954.WXCN2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: I have a schematic from one of the reference manuals... Ping me in a week if I don't get it to you by then (I have a short memory)... clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > ---------- > > From: Mike Cheponis > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > > Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:14 AM > > > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there > a > > schematic somewhere? > > If you want to see a nice picture, see eBay auction 341188950 (ends June > 3). > > > From gaz_k at lineone.net Thu Jun 1 17:34:06 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? References: Message-ID: <00c601bfcce6$70d95960$5c53063e@gaz> Sellam Ismail > When did Jay Miner pass away? 1994. If he had lived he would have been 68 today. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 2 17:59:50 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A point to ponder: Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized documentation. How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, Chaucer, etc). The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. clint From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 18:23:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> > If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they > possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, > encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), > or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, > ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? No problem, they'll just refer to the PDF files documenting those standards. :-) More seriously, though: Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the next generation of optical drives? However, the CD-Audio format, upon which CD-ROM is based, was deliberately designed to be so simple that an audio player didn't necessarily need to contain a microprocessor (standalone or embedded). As far as I know, all commercial players have contained at least one microprocessor, because by 1983 it was actually cheaper to build players with them than without. I bring this up to address the hypothetical situation that 50 years from now there are not any commonly available CD-ROM drives. I firmly believe that a small team of graduate students, armed with the relevant technical specifications, could design and construct a working CD-ROM drive in under two years. > Will they even understand English (or a > close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English > (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, > Chaucer, etc). Longterm, this is a much more significant problem. However, it is relatively pointless to worry about whether they'll be able to read CD-ROMs if they would be unable to interpret the contents anyhow. > The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough > information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the > archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't > degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. Unfortunately, there is so little commercial value to doing this, that there is basically no chance of it being done for more than a trivial amount of information. From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 2 18:24:53 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You may wish to check out http://www.longnow.org/ -Mike On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > A point to ponder: > > Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian > hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just > undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. > > I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized > documentation. > > How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch > floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are > stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. > > In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or > paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? > > If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they > possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, > encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), > or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, > ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a > close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English > (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, > Chaucer, etc). > > The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough > information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the > archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't > degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. > > clint > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 18:27:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 2 Jun 2000 23:23:40 -0000) References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > is all but impossible to read now. Of course, this view overlooks the fact that 7-track tape drives were large, expensive and typically not owned by individuals, whereas there are millions of CD-ROM drives owned by individuals now. This suggests that even if CD-ROM were to be obsoleted tomorrow, that it probably still won't be that hard to turn up a working or repairable drive 30 years from now. Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are still some around, but they aren't commonplace. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:39:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 1, 0 10:43:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/e203f3b8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:28:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Jun 1, 0 09:34:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 271 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/15748fd2/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:48:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 2, 0 08:14:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/5221fdc8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:33:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 1, 0 09:14:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/0fdff95d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 18:03:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 2, 0 05:52:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 12479 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/57000504/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 18:07:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <000602112652.20200edb@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 2, 0 11:26:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/20d106de/attachment-0001.ksh From stan at netcom.com Fri Jun 2 19:51:52 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for thelist! References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <393856A8.B01F07DB@netcom.com> Thanks to Mike and all of the others who helped me out with this! It's a 24-bit accelerated video card, and now I have to see if it works in my Mac 7100/66. Regards, Stan Perkins Mike Ford wrote: > > >Hello all, > > > >I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > > >APPLE COMPUTER INC. > >820-0510-A c1993 > > Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066 > > Apple part# 820-0510-A > Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac > 61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and > video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a > camcorder or VCR for editing and playback. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 2 20:28:05 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM > drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the > next generation of optical drives? I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. These people will be the audio types that will want to be able to hear many of the pieces of music being recorded today. Remember, many of artists that will be viewed as gods in ten years are nobodies today, but recording on CDs. There will be plenty of people that will want to get early recordings, and will keep the technology alive. There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex than these, but they are well documented, and there will be spares for a very long time. And, as Eric states, it would be very possible for someone with enough resources (academic, for example) to produce a reader. I would venture to say that a well educated skilled tinker could make one. Older precision tools are getting quite easy to obtain these days, and it was those very tools that made the first players. As for 7 track tapes, well, speak up, Tim. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 2 20:33:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of > finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are > still some around, but they aren't commonplace. Look in the right place, the special interest groups dedicated to them, and you will find more than you will ever need. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 2 21:28:21 2000 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:52:12 -0700 . <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: In message <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>, "Daniel A. Seagraves" writes : >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. There are several answers possible depending on what level of emulation you're looking to do. If the purpose of the emulator is for developing software on one platform before running it on another, an instruction level functional simulation is good because it's fast. For this, just turn the 1s and 0s into native integers and operate on them.[1] For a bit-level emulation, there are several good references for how this can be and sometimes is done. For example Patterson and Hennessy's books are quite good. I've taught out of their Computer Organization and Design: The Hardware/Software Interface and quite like it. If you can't find such a reference, I'll e-mail you the TeX source to a chapter I wrote years ago for my introductory courses. Finally, if you want to do a gate level emulation of a particular machine, then you'll want to get the schematics of the machine and find out exactly how its designers did it. [1] I used to work with digital signal processor (DSP) chips quite a lot. When Analog Devices entered the market with their ADSP-2100, we were interested in it. So I wrote some code to implement a standard voice compression algorithm. Now the test vectors for this represented 2 seconds of real time. The Analog Devices simulator which we ported to BSD Unix ended up taking about 1 week to run this 2 seconds on our VAX 11/750. It did the simulation at a very low level. While it was running, I started developing a new simulator using our simulator-compiler. When it was finished, it ran the 2 second simulation in about 2-3 hours. It simulated the machine at the instruction level. The amusing part of the story is that we were moving from one office to another at about that time. I was beginning to wonder as the move approached whether the first simulation was going to finish in time for us to shut the machine down and move it to the other building. It did BTW and IIRC it had about a day to spare. Brian L. Stuart From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 2 21:53:58 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "right answer" (as told to me by a genius h/w type) was to use a single PAL and a Z8030 - you actually would win by having address lines for all of the chips registers; you had to demux the AD wires, tho. -Mike On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Z8530] > > I will admit that it is not friendly to the MC68K bus. We used one or two > > dedicated PALs to handle the interfacing. Additionally, we had an 8Mhz CPU > > It's not that unfriendly. The PERQ 3a uses half a dozen TTL chips to > fiddle with the 60800 bus signals and turn them into the Z8530 read and > write signals. And one output of a PAL as the address decoder. That's > hardly 'unfriendly'... > > -tony > > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 2 22:19:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L References: Message-ID: <000901bfcd0a$83f67f40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> IF you have a cleaning tape, stick it in there! There's a flash code that it produces when it wants a cleaning tape and it won't do anything when it wants one other than spit out whatever tape you put in there other than a SONY or Exabyte cleaning tape. The drive is VERY fussy about what kind of tapes it accepts. I'd bet it won't accept any of your old handycam cartridges, and, in fact, there are some brands of "data-grade" tapes it will never accept. I don't remember which ones they are, however, since I haven't got any. If you happen to figure out how it senses what kind of tape it has, please let me know. This is still a mystery to me that I'd like to solve. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: classcomp mailing list Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 4:26 PM Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L > Hello, > > Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do > anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > > Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back > as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is > a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:06:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > I bring this up to address the hypothetical situation that 50 years from > now there are not any commonly available CD-ROM drives. I firmly believe > that a small team of graduate students, armed with the relevant technical > specifications, could design and construct a working CD-ROM drive in > under two years. One can still go into thrift stores and pretty regularly find audio players from the 50s and 60s. I would imagine CD players would be just as easy if not more so to find 50 years from now. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:12:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are > keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want > to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison > cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm > film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex See: The Dead Media Project http://www.wps.com/dead-media/index.html Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:29:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: ASCII art & scanning techniques discussion on Community Memory Message-ID: One of the Community Memory archives is sprinkled with messages about ASCII art scanning techniques, among other interesting topics: http://memex.org/cm-archive4.html Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Fri Jun 2 23:46:51 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from McFadden, Mike on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:21:16AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000602214650.A4084@electron.quantum.int> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:21:16AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > color fidelity. We have discussed CD-ROM and other digital media. Our goal Doing the transfer from film to digital is no small matter either. I think what the world needs is a "universal film scanner" - a device with a linear CCD and powered rollers to feed the film through, regardless of the spacing of the frames, sprocket holes, size of the film, etc. If you digitize the entire film strip, software could be used to detect the frame boundaries later and even correct for spacing inconsistences which cause the picture to jump around when viewed on a conventional projector. I really want to find or build a scanner like that some day. So far the film scanners I have seen appear to support only the common sizes, and they don't scan arbitrary lengths of film either. > databases, to Access databases. A computer database is no help to try to Access is a kind of "evolving"? Now there's an unstable data storage system if I ever saw one. Especially if (as I suspect) MS keeps changing the file format with every new version like they do with their other Office products. Most likely you'd need the same vintage PC up and running with the same vintage software in order to read the database a few years from now. But I don't know what database system is the most change- resistant. Maybe SQL will continue to exist for a very long time yet, so you could archive the database as a sequence of SQL statements to create the tables and insert the data; that way it's independent of the on-disk format. > figure out why the sewer line was run through my yard and not on the sewer > easement in 1960. Written notes in the ledger help me to understand that the > rock was in the way and that hand digging was easier through my yard. Now > if you want to know why one house is constructed over the water and not on > shore that is another story. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Yep. The world needs a good knowledgebase system too, and more than anything that's the problem I'd like to solve. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jun 3 00:18:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. Is there any way to make it work otherwise? --Chuck From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 3 00:50:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:28:05PM -0400 References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000603015002.A26430@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:28:05PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never >go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from >now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, >there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. I'm not sure the group will be so small -- 74 minutes is already on the high side for an album, I really don't think *any* band would be happy if all their fans expected them to cough up 6 hours of new songs every couple of years! We can already get much higher data density than what's possible with CDs, but for regular pop music purposes there's no real need to improve on CDs. They're physically small enough that they're too easy to lose (I don't know what the heck the minidisk folks are thinking, those things look even more likely to roll under a car seat where you'll never find them), and they hold about as much as would reasonably fit on an LP or cassette anyway. Of course, consumers are sheep so I'm sure audio CDs will be flushed in favor of something else sooner or later, but it will probably be for no good reason. John Wilson D Bit From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jun 3 05:09:36 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> At 04:59 PM 6/2/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >A point to ponder: > >Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian >hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just >undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. > >I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized >documentation. > >How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch >floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are >stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. > >In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or >paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? > >If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they >possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, >encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), >or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, >ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a >close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English >(Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, >Chaucer, etc). > >The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough >information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the >archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't >degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. > >clint Last year some of our local V.I.P'S buried a "time capsule" to be dug up in a hundred years, and which included a VHS tape. While there are hundred year old Edison cylinders around and the equipment to play them on, I doubt they will have much luck with that VHS tape. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 07:14:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@uhura.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000603081457.2240025f@uhura.trailing-edge.com> Sellam wrote: >On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: >> There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are >> keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want >> to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison >> cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm >> film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex >See: > >The Dead Media Project >http://www.wps.com/dead-media/index.html I've looked at their pages, and tried to figure out what they do. They seem to just write about dead media, and they don't actually do anything with it. Is that true? To paraphrase some comedian whose name I forgot, isn't that a lot like writing about dancing but never going dancing? Tim. From CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 08:35:17 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@uhura.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <000603093517.2240025f@uhura.trailing-edge.com> >Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I >put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works >fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it >up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I >know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally >connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. >Is there any way to make it work otherwise? Am I correct, that you don't have a "Power Controller"? A DEC Power Controller is a metal box with one line cord in and many jacks for plugging in accessories, and a contactor (big relay) inside for switching many of the jacks on/off under remote control of the 3-pin plugs/cables. Without a Power Controller, you have no contactor, and no way of remotely switching things on and off. With such a small system, you can probably go to Radio Shack and get one of their power controllers, that works by sensing current draw to one of your boxes and turns the rest on when that one comes on. No, it's not as fancy or as configurable as a DEC power controller, and Radio Shack certainly doesn't have any versions that do 3-Phase at 60 Amps per phase, but it ought to work fine for a small system like yours. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From gaz_k at lineone.net Sat Jun 3 05:28:22 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Internet Radio References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000603015002.A26430@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000601bfcd6a$1a24a5a0$483263c3@gaz> Yesterday I found an old LW/MW radio in a second-hand shop that was labelled an 'Internet Radio' on the box. The radio itself has 'Internet 10' printed on the front and was produced by a company based in Kent, England. From the design it seems to be late 1950s/ early 1960s. Obviously it has nothing to do with the current definition of the Internet but it is still interesting to note the origins of the name and what it was associated with. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From allain at panix.com Sat Jun 3 09:49:25 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle References: <000501bfcccc$9154c630$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <003f01bfcd6a$efb7f0a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I'm also looking > for the October 1971 issue of Esquire magazine that featured the article > with John Draper talking about the "blue box". I know it said email directly but this topic is a little too interesting to do that with. The article mentioned is in Esquire, October 1971. It can be viewed at http://www.webcrunchers.com/crunch/esq-art.html John D. was recently featured in the New York Times: 26-March-2000 which was a near full page covering none other than the Homebrew Computer Club's 25th anniversary. Immensely on-topic, I believe! The books "Digital Deli" and "Hackers" are good references also. The former features an article on John D. written by Steve Wozniak. John A. From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 10:32:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? Yep... build a power controller. :-) For info. about power controllers, look through the archives for the Vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroup from around November, 1995... not sure if they're still on deja-news or not, but I found some articles that I saved from back then containing a thread on power controllers from when the plug on my 871C melted (BTW, DEC actually sent someone to my house to check out the burnt plug... they apparently take (or took) things such as their equipment smouldering rather seriously, even if it's old and used as a hobby by someone with no service contract). A word of caution: it's a good idea to check the plugs, that is the type that are attached to the cable by screws, on power cables every so often to make sure that the screws are tight and the connection is good in order to avoid the fragrance of acrid smoke filling your house. Here's what an 871C looks like, so you have some idea of what one does; thanks to ARD for corrections and reminding me not to use tabs in ASCII drawings. * purple DPDT switch red +-----sw1a--+-sw1b-------------------------------------------------+ | | +-----------------------------------------+ | | orange| c | | | | D1a | +--------------------------------+ +--C4-+ | | | c | | | | | | | - + D2a | | 1 3 1 T1 1| a c | | | +-C2--------|----+ | R2---? ?--+ +------@!!@----D4--+ | | | | | | VR1 | | 2@!!@2| | | | green +-----------|------+ +----?----+--+ | J1-3-@!!@-+------|-----|-|---J2/3-1 | | +-----+6 | a c 2 | | 3@!!@3 a c | | | black chasis 1 +-|o |---+--D3-----+ | | J1-4-@!!@----D5--+ | | |+J2/3-2 gnd. | | | | | (unused) | | | brown +--C3---R1+--| RY1 |-------+ | +--|------------------------+ +-|-J2/3-3 | +---| |---+ | | | | | | +-----+ | +-----|----------------------------+ | J1-1 J1-2--+ | +--------------------------+-----------+ For the diodes, D1 - D5, a=anode, c=cathode MOV1 - GE V150LA10A C1 - 0.1 uF, 270VAC, 1KVDC C2 - 10 uF, 50VDC (electrolytic) C3 - .022 uF, 270VAC, 1KVDC C4 - RVX2247, 50V (.0047uF?) L1 - numbered as 1S00077, appears to be neon light, with built in resistor R1 - 1K ohms, 5 percent tol. R2 - 560 ohms, 5 percent tol. RY1 - reed relay VR1 - 8V regulator, National Semiconductor 932 736 08A (possibly 7808 type) DISCLAIMER: Use the above schematic at your own risk; it's intended as a rough guideline only, for troubleshooting purposes, for those who haven't peeked inside theirs to trace the schematic out yet; don't use this as a reliable guide for repairing or building a power controller! I can't guarantee that no mistakes were made when tracing it out, and if you rely upon it, there's no gurantee that it won't destroy you or your equipment. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 3 10:18:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <001c01bfcd6f$814ffc70$7064c0d0@ajp166> >up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I >know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally >connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. >Is there any way to make it work otherwise? No, you need a 871A power distribution or similar. Lacking that a box with a small DC power, relay and outlets will do as those connectors are simply switches on the BA11 (verify with meter). That why ba-11 has a switch on the front and also on the back. Allison From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jun 3 13:09:16 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 Message-ID: I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance someplace). Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that made the thing user programmable, for example? Is anybody aware of a pre-1979 programable handheld? I suppose something like the HP-65 is a candidate, but an alpha-numeric keyboard and display would be more compelling. Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense at somebody calling it the first PDA? (No, I'm not selling one on eBay. There is one for sale there now -- it's overpriced, though. These things aren't exactly rare.) Thanks, Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 12:41:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 2, 0 08:06:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/be7e1048/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 14:14:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 3, 0 11:32:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8058 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/3cf0ee84/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 13:40:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jun 3, 0 06:09:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3822 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/2af742e2/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 12:51:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jun 2, 0 10:18:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2195 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/1658ce08/attachment-0001.ksh From mfhoneycutt at earthlink.net Sat Jun 3 16:50:27 2000 From: mfhoneycutt at earthlink.net (Mark Honeycutt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane Message-ID: <00cd01bfcda5$bbe97380$6402a8c0@laptop.home.net> John, I would really like a copy of any ASCII art files you might have, especially if they are the ones with the embedded overstrike control codes for a Dataproducts band printer. We used to have some files for our Wang system that used a DP printer.. they were really great. They went out the door when the systems were retired about 12 years ago. I now have a MicroVAX II and the DEC version of the B200 DP band printer, so I should be able to run off some good copies on greenbar paper (back side, of course) of any files I can locate. This has been an interest of mine back to the early 70's when a few punch card decks would get passed around that you could run on the IBM that would generate some pretty fair posters for dorm room walls. Thanks to you and the list, Mark Honeycutt mfhoneycutt@earthlink.net -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 3:45 PM Subject: Re: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane >At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate >>bridge and an airplane flying over it: >>It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is >>roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. > >I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from >someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the >largest file: > >FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > >where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be >glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > >By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and >the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. > >- John > From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 3 16:10:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Doug Salot wrote: > I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held > "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also > sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance > someplace). The earliest copyright date I've found on the literature accompanying the plug-in carthridges is 1976 (or 1975...can't remember for sure). > Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that > made the thing user programmable, for example? I have the following language modules: English-Spanish English-French English-German English-Arabic English-Italian And the Calculator module. I've heard before that there was also a Computer module but this is entirely uncomfirmed. > Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense > at somebody calling it the first PDA? I've always considered it such. I'll expect a full report at VCF 4.0 :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:00:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> References: Message-ID: > Last year some of our local V.I.P'S buried a "time capsule" to be >dug up >in a hundred years, and which included a VHS tape. While there are hundred >year old Edison cylinders around and the equipment to play them on, I doubt >they will have much luck with that VHS tape. My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:11:07 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <001c01bfcd6f$814ffc70$7064c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: One of the AC power controllers I see in many small minis is the Paluzzi (sic) anyway they are not uncommon around here 10 miles from the factory in Santa Ana, anything interesting that can be done with one? I really like the idea of computer, or remote controlled AC power management. I have some Sophisticate Circuits PowerKeys, and have been thinking about some kind of serious power control for my HiFi system (lots of juice, and it must be very sweet). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:16:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held >"computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also >sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance >someplace). My Lexicomm was made in Taiwan around 1995, the only older small handhelds I know of are MTS (something like that) and are actually "terminals" used for taking inventory via some small backed up memory. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 3 17:45:33 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000603224533.84840.qmail@hotmail.com> Maybe this is just a sign of how much I mess with computers/don't clean my car, but I've been known to discover 9-track tapes that slid down there in transport a long time back under my seat... Not to mention that there are assorted IBM System/36 parts under my passenger seat as we speak... The last time I cleaned my car, I found an Apollo Pascal manual I didn't even know I owned, heh.. So I dunno, for me, media would have to be around 36-48 inches across to not disappear sometimes.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 3 18:22:38 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:00:43PM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <20000603192238.A28198@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:00:43PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has >LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. I know the feeling ... in December I phoned my old grade school to find out what the plan was for digging up the time capsule we buried around 1974 or so, to be opened in the year 2000, and it was long gone. Evidently they'd expanded the school building and dug up that area at some point. They're pretty sure someone found the time capsule during the excavation and put it safely in a storage shed, but the shed later burned down (there's a housing project next door so everything gets vandalized sooner or later). Way to go! It wasn't a very well-thought-out plan to begin with, we should have specified "*summer* 2000", because on Jan. 1 the ground would have been frozen anyway. John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 19:51:35 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have dumps of the proms too... Still looking for them though. clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > > schematic somewhere? > > I posted the list of chips (actually, all 8 chips on the disk interface > card) yesterday. There's a schematic in the back of the Apple ][ DOS > manual. But be warned that much of the cleverness is hidden inside 2 > PROMs (one contains the disk bootstrap software, the other, together with > a latch, forms a state machine to decode the pulses off the disk). So a > schematic doesn't tell you that much. > > -tony > > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 20:09:19 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with most of what you are saying with one key point: How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their children will collect them? I believe the number of people interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! CDs are already on the way out. They have been replaced by MP3 players which store the same number of minutes of music on a much smaller flash memory chip. DataPlay.com has announced a US Quarter (.75 inch?) diameter rewritable disc player and media (hope they fail, they didn't offer me a job!). In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, but probably not in working condition. CDs have a limited lifetime, (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. The information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable format until your grad students build a reader. clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > > is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM > > drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the > > next generation of optical drives? > > I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never > go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from > now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, > there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. > These people will be the audio types that will want to be able to hear > many of the pieces of music being recorded today. Remember, many of > artists that will be viewed as gods in ten years are nobodies today, but > recording on CDs. There will be plenty of people that will want to get > early recordings, and will keep the technology alive. > > There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are > keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want > to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison > cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm > film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex > than these, but they are well documented, and there will be spares for a > very long time. And, as Eric states, it would be very possible for someone > with enough resources (academic, for example) to produce a reader. I would > venture to say that a well educated skilled tinker could make one. Older > precision tools are getting quite easy to obtain these days, and it was > those very tools that made the first players. > > As for 7 track tapes, well, speak up, Tim. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 20:11:56 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:24 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, I have a few extra DEC power controllers, with the outlets and the 3 plug do-hickey's. Contact me OL if you want one (or two)... clint PS anybody can contact me if they want one... standard 1.2 * shipping On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? > > --Chuck > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 3 20:51:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:00:43 -0800) References: Message-ID: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> > My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has > LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they remember but the capsules are no longer present? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 3 20:57:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000604015729.31971.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > CDs have a limited lifetime, > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. I can't let that one pass! :-) I have some 17-year-old CDs, and they still play just fine. Aside from physical damage due to mishandling, the main failure mode is oxidation of the aluminum layer, which results from oxygen leaking through the lacquer on the label side of the disk, or the lacquer being defective. The *shortest* projected CD (not CD-R) lifetime which I've seen in quoted in a technical paper, assuming that the CD is manufatured properly, kept in a reasonably controlled environment, and not physically damaged, was 70 years. This was based on accelerated aging. Kodak's white paper on their CD-R media documents their accelerated aging study which leads them to project *conservatively* a 100 year lifetime. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 3 21:00:00 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their > children will collect them? Lots more than you think! Of course, many more will start collecting when they get older. > I believe the number of people > interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will > decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! No, not at all. The multi-billion dollar antiques market say "no". A certain number of people will always like the past and support it. > In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's > aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, > but probably not in working condition. A few will work, and that's what counts. > CDs have a limited lifetime, > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs that use them) with a far less stable tracking mechanism,but they track and play just fine. The bit about CDs dying prematuring is a bunch of balloon juice. While by no means a great archival solution, they are remarkably stable when treated properly. > CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. That is a fault of the users. CDs are actually very easy to keep scratch-free, but it does take some discipline (like using the jewel boxes that way they were designed). > The > information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten > years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, > group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable > format until your grad students build a reader. The 'small, religious groups' are also remarkably long-lived, and actually have professional associations and such. They know the problems with old media, and are actually doing work on it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 3 21:08:36 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jun 4, 0 01:51:16 am" Message-ID: <200006040208.TAA15032@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has ::> LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. :: ::Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they ::remember but the capsules are no longer present? Probably the former. It's all the smog in Corona and every other flippin' place in the Inland Empire that does it. (disgruntled San Bernardino resident who wants to go back home to San Diego) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 21:09:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000603220916.20200fd1@trailing-edge.com> >Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first >generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well >today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a >old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs >that use them) I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, but that counts, right?) For old-music-CD's, who here remembers the "Preemphasis" bit? I've got a player that indicates that status on the display, though the only CD I have that uses it is a special test disk. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:25:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their Well, most kids today appaently don't really have any idea what music is (even though they listen to what they somehow believe to be music), so that's a good question. (<- a sign that RDD's getting old?) > children will collect them? I believe the number of people > interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will > decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! In all seriousness, at least some of them will, that is, those who appreciate a wide range of music. I tend to listen to anything from classical to rock (up to the 1980's, that is, before most of it turned to noise), county, celtic, etc... even some old Frank Sinatra, Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass, Doris Day, various artists on 78 RPM records, etc. After all, music that some people grew up listening to as a child, if they enjoyed it, they'll want to keep it, which probably means keeping the media it's on, particularly if there's enough of it to make converting it, or buying new copies if available, a nuisance. Besides, after listening to both the CD and LP versions of some music, there were cases where the LP. even when not in perfect condition, sounded much better - less harsh... of course, the opposite holds true as well in some cases. > CDs are already on the way out. They have been replaced by MP3 > players which store the same number of minutes of music on a > much smaller flash memory chip. DataPlay.com has announced a > US Quarter (.75 inch?) diameter rewritable disc player and media This change is idiotic; like someone else (John Wilson?) said, it's already easy enough to lose a CD compared to an LP, and a much smaller disc would be even worse. Will they eliminate the liner notes, or just supply a magnifying glass for them? When one purchases a record or CD, one expects to be able to listen to it for many decades, and to keep changing formats in a way that will make other formats obsolete isn't good. At least, for many years, turntables could play 16, 33-1/3, 45 and 78 RPM records. > In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's > aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, > but probably not in working condition. CDs have a limited lifetime, Yes, Edison's recording system was at least better designed so that it would last longer. > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. Wow, you mean someone else besides me is saying that "CD-Rot" is a real possibility? > CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. The > information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten > years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, > group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable > format until your grad students build a reader. One would think that society, if it was sensible, would be trying to replace them with a more durable format, but then, we live in a wasteful throw-away society. For example, look at the morons trying to convert books from paper to "e-books;" why the men with white coats and nets are chasing after the proponents of e-books, I just don't understand. The company I used to work for, that puts many well-known scientific and medical journals on the WWW, wasn't at all interested in ways of preserving the data, and ignored my ideas for ways that they could work with libraries, etc. to not only preserve, but ensure that the data wasn't changed over time after publication... one of their clients would request changes to the content of material already published, and they'd comply! So short-sighted; blasted bizdroids. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:37:30 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <000603220916.20200fd1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > but that counts, right?) Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:54:36 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > At one time the DEC power controllers (they're not really sequencers) > were easy enough to find at radio rallies, etc. They're pretty generic Of course, one could find inexpensive test equipment (e.g. < $15 for tektronix 'scopes and HP frequency counters), interesting and inexpensive computers, etc. at hamfests... it was so much fun before the people who just want to collect, and not play with, computers began calling themselves "computer collectors" and started snapping stuff up quickly and then only letting it go at high prices. > (there are no Unibus or Qbus versions :-)), so something like an 861 or > an 871 would work fine. Have these units now attracted E-overpay prices? Thus far, I've not seen any on E-bilk. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 3 22:19:06 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> At 11:27 PM 6/2/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of >finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are >still some around, but they aren't commonplace. It would be interesting to compare the number of 78 RPM records ever made to the number of data CD made, for example. As for finding CD-ROM readers, I'm sure the surplus places will have pristine in-shrink-wrap ones on the shelf, in the same way you can still buy surplus from WW II. - John From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 23:34:54 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > finding CD-ROM readers, I'm sure the surplus places will have > pristine in-shrink-wrap ones on the shelf, in the same way > you can still buy surplus from WW II. That's not to say the odds are as good of them working as WWII surplus still working. A radio from that era was a far more durable piece of equipment (aside from the chance of tube (valve) breakage from improper handling and capacitors, or condensors as they called them back then, going bad) than a CD-ROM drive with all it's miniaturization and parts that probably won't handle years and years of thermal fluctuations very well and thin plastic parts that may become brittle and break, etc. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 01:55:44 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <200006040655.CAA18537@world.std.com> >Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using >a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest >you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. I'm interested... I have a couple of Casio CZ-101s that I would love to drive using the pdp-11. Allison modified a DLV11-J for me years ago so that I could control some devices... but as I am moving my entire collection to storage (my partner and I are looking into getting a house with a garage and basement so I can have a real museum), I'm not sure where it is right now. Also, years ago I built a device with several of the TI Sound Generation Controllers on it, controlled by a DL11-C. I had some software which played the music files produced by the music compliler written at Stanford. I still have the device, though I've misplaced the schematics for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Jun 4 02:44:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:00:43 -0800) Message-ID: >> My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has >> LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. > >Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they >remember but the capsules are no longer present? Full story at, snip below. http://www.oglethorpe.edu/itcs/wanted.htm THE NINE MOST WANTED TIME CAPSULES 3. Corona, California, Time Capsules. The City of Corona seems to have misplaced a series of 17 time capsules dating back to the 1930s. Efforts to recover the capsules in 1986 were in vain. "We just tore up a lot of concrete around the civic center, "said the chairman of the town's centennial committee. A Los Angeles Times reporter has called Corona "the individual record holder in the fumbled time capsule category." From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Jun 4 04:51:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jun 02, 2000 09:55:16 AM Message-ID: <200006040951.CAA07002@eskimo.com> > > >Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > > ^^^^ > >Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? > >I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell > >under the designation of "AppleSoft". > > "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. As Eric said, that was a bit of revisionism (or at least sweeping history under the carpet). My cynicism makes me suspect it was doen knowingly and shamelessly, but I have no proof. And speaking of revisionism: Apple has reabsorbed Claris (the relationship between Apple and Claris is surely a fascinating story in itself) and ClarisWorks is now called Appleworks. Never mind that the original AppleWorks runs on the ][ and //gs (and AFAIK before that, the III, and bought from another company too). Even "Claris" is an in-joke. The dogcow (another in-joke) is named Clarus. I'm sure that's not a coincidence. -- Derek From flo at rdel.co.uk Sun Jun 4 07:14:15 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <393A4817.B222F43E@rdel.co.uk> Could anyone help me out by looking up some programming information for a DEC LQP02 or LQP03, please? I'm working from an LN03 manual that happens to mention that the following control sequences exist on letter-quality printers, but it doesn't give details. I'd like to know how to invoke: DECFIL (Right Justification) DECFPP (Positioning) DECPSPP (Print Specified Printwheel Position) DECPTS (Printwheel Table Select) DECSS (Set Space Size) DECUND (Programmable Underline Character) While I'm on the subject, I see that the Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84 entry for the LQP02 says that it prints "32 char/s (letter-quality, Shannon text)". Does "Shannon text" mean anything to anyone? Cheers, Paul From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 4 09:13:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <000604101346.20200efd@trailing-edge.com> >While I'm on the subject, I see that the Terminals and Printers Handbook >1983-84 entry for the LQP02 says that it prints "32 char/s >(letter-quality, Shannon text)". Does "Shannon text" mean anything to >anyone? Maybe this just shows that I'm too much of a crypto geek, but anyway: "Shannon text" means that the letters are distributed in a way typical for English-language plain text. i.e. the typical ETAOIN... distribution. Depending on the context, it may also imply a "typical" distribution of word lengths too. This actually matters for chain printers (where you can choose a subset of letters that go on the print chain and get better performance), but it's not such a big deal for dot-matrix or laser printers which tend to print at the same speed (until something overheats, at least) no matter what. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From transit at lerctr.org Sun Jun 4 09:55:49 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Computer music (was: Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > > but that counts, right?) > > Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using > a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest > you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. > I don't know about PDP's, but when I was at UCSB, a "computer music" class was offered, using "Csound" software running on VAXen. In 84-85, they used part of one the Computer Science Department's machines (a VAX 11/780 running Unix). Csound required its own disk drive, to keep the sound from being chopped up by other processes goin on in that machine. It also had its own version of Unix commands (for example, instead of mv or rm, you'd say mvsf or rmsf, again because of the specific demands of the csound software). About a year later, the Music Department got its own VAX. They switched to individual Suun workstations a year or two after I had left in 1987. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 08:52:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <00d001bfce31$597f0840$7064c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Williams To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:21 AM Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers >Could anyone help me out by looking up some programming information for >a DEC LQP02 or LQP03, please? I'm working from an LN03 manual that >happens to mention that the following control sequences exist on >letter-quality printers, but it doesn't give details. Because the LQP 02/03 use different sequences from the later LA series dotmatrix printer that can do them. You will need manuals for LQP02 and 03 for a detailed descritption as by time the ln03 was sold those old LQPs were gone. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 10:30:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 3, 0 10:19:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/776f6ae7/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 09:35:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Computer music (was: Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000001bfce3e$53a2b6d0$7864c0d0@ajp166> >I don't know about PDP's, but when I was at UCSB, a "computer Sounds like I need to drag out my Gigolo package which is a soundboard and some fo the software for Qbus. It would work for microvax but I dont have any drivers for that. The basic board is a pair of AY-mumble sounds chips from GI. What I need now (or to do) is a composition to performance compiler that would allow editing input and running it for the ear. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 09:47:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <000101bfce3e$547289f0$7864c0d0@ajp166> >This actually matters for chain printers (where you can choose a subset >of letters that go on the print chain and get better performance), but it's >not such a big deal for dot-matrix or laser printers which tend to print >at the same speed (until something overheats, at least) no matter what. LQP02/3 being daisy wheel and obeying the rules of inerta and acceleration are like band printers in that some sequences will print slower (less than max speed). The is especially true if the carriage positioning commands are used. So speed specs used a standard text and line width so that comparison could be made. Allison Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Jun 4 12:27:25 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Available FT: DEC PDP boards Message-ID: <20000604122725.I25040@mrbill.net> (I first posted this a while back, and was talking with someone about a trade, but I havent heard from him in almost two weeks now... Dave,if you're still interested, please get in touch with me ASAP) I've got the following assortment of PDP-11 boards and CPUs that have been sitting around for a few months; I'd like to see them go to a good home. Trades preferred; I'm looking for a small VAX to play with VMS on (MicroVAX 3100 or so), or other DEC parts (TKZ30, RRD42 cdrom drive, any VT3xx/VT4xx terminals...). Will consider any offers; I hate to have these lying around unused. Marked on handle: Other markings/desc: ----------------------------------------------- M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) I've got some other cards as well, but this is all I can find for now. If anybody's interested in these, please let me know. Bill (maintainer of www.pdp11.org / www.decvax.org) -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 4 13:25:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server Message-ID: Greetings, Would any list members happen to be familiar with a terminal server sold by BlackBox that was oroginally manufactured by Racal-Datacomm, model No. BTS-100? A while back, I obtained one of these, but I can't seem to get it to work by connecting a terminal to the console port; I've tried data rates between 300 and 19,200, and nothing; also tried a few other ports. Something tells me that the best thing to do is reset the server to the default settings, but I'm not sure how to do this; no reset switch inside, but there is is a jumper inside that I'm going to try changing next. Any ideas for sources of documentation? The manufacturer and black box consider it ancient and can't help. Also, is anyone her familiar with the apparently not-so-rare defect in Emulex Performance 4000 terminal servers that causes a short circuit? I'm told by Emulex that they have an idea what the problem is, as a certain something is known to go bad in these units, but they refuse to tell me as I'm not an authorized repair center. Short of unsoldering surface mount ICs, I've disconnected and removed everything that I can find to disconnect and remove, and the short on the circuit board remains. The PSU seems ok when I apply other loads to it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun Jun 4 14:59:29 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue and Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 References: Message-ID: <001101bfce5f$65d5f940$aac6fea9@franois> Adding to the list: > I have the following language modules: > > English-Spanish > English-French > English-German > English-Arabic > English-Italian English-Portugese (LK-3110) Electronic Notepad (LK-3500) Information Module: Winter olympics / Olympic records (LK-0280) Calculator (LK-3900) Francois From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 14:54:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 4, 0 02:25:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/3c3a833c/attachment-0001.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 15:48:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That's not to say the odds are as good of them working as WWII surplus > still working. A radio from that era was a far more durable piece of > equipment (aside from the chance of tube (valve) breakage from > improper handling and capacitors, or condensors as they called them > back then, going bad) than a CD-ROM drive with all it's > miniaturization and parts that probably won't handle years and years > of thermal fluctuations very well and thin plastic parts that may > become brittle and break, etc. ????? While the military radios back then certainly were built tobe more durable, they do not age well at all.Simply put, materials just were not very good back then - ask any chemist or metalurgist (sp?). The plastics are horrid, the rubbers are just as bad. Paper has a huge acid content, and metals often are laced with impurities. In contrast, modern plastics and rubbers are incredibly stable, the acid content in paper has gone down, and metals are more pure. Many of these changes can be traced back to the space industry, so these meterials have quite a few years of "real world testing" under their belt, and are coming out champs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 16:05:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 04:48:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2477 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/968e7f4b/attachment-0001.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 16:52:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yes, the plastics made 60 years ago were poor. But they weren't used for > everything from cabinets to gears to chassis to bearings to... Those > parts were made of metal back then. And yes, there have been impurity > problems with metals (the well-know 'pot metal' for example). But a brass > gear, as used in clocks for the last 400 years, and as used in the tuning > drives of WW2 radios will outlast the cheap plastic gears in a modern > unit. Period. Question mark, followed by exclamation mark. Look up "season cracking". And find me a Hallicrafters S-meter in one piece. If its brass that has any impurities in it, internal (and external) stresses will crack it. Gears are fairly immune if they have been cut from free machining brass, but stamped gears are time bombs. If the brass was cold worked, it pretty much has a death sentence, with the day of execution determined by the quality of the metal. The point is that today's brass (and other metals) is far better than yesterday's, and will outlast it greatly. Season cracking is a restoration nightmare, as there really is nothing that can stop or repair it. Anyway, comparing poor quality brass to excellent stability plastic gearing is an apples to oranges comparison. > Point is, consumer-grade equipment is not > built like that. That's not the issue. If anything, I am in 100 percent agreement. > It uses the cheapest possible materials, even when > they're not really suitable. Or perhaps you could explain why my 1972 > Philips N1500 VCR (almost entirely metal inside) is still going strong > with only 1 set of new belts and a repair to a loading pulley, whereas a 5 > year old machine has already got through 4 sets of idlers, pinch rollers, > belts and a head drum. Of course a 1972 VCR will be built well! Back then, they cost lots of money, and Philips would lose favor in the market if they did build them cheaply. > The other issue is repairability. I don't expect to be able to pick up a > WW2 unit, untouched since the day it was made, turn it on, and use it. > But I know that I could _repair_ a unit made back then. Yes, capacitors > will have broken down. Rubber-insulated wire will need replacing. But > that's not a particularly difficult problem to solve. Well, this is also not the issue, and I pretty much agree here as we... > Now try the same thing with a CD ROM drive in 50 years time. I don't > expect it to work after 50 years, sure. But just try fixing it. It's a > lot harder (some would say impossible) than a WW2 radio. The 50 year old CD-ROM will likely need far less in the repair department, because most (all?) of the parts will be just as good as the day they were born. Remember, we are talking about dealing with unused (or little used) equipment, not readers that have spent a few years in the computers of teenagers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 17:30:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 05:52:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5854 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/dd548e98/attachment-0001.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 4 18:08:05 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000604230805.22748.qmail@hotmail.com> Don't forget the fact that LP's and 7 inches (45's) are still being pressed today... I ought to know, since I buy some of em... I have about 80 something records of all types, and about 50-60 of them were pressed in the last 5-7 years. Now if only they made blank recordable 8-tracks still, I want to record some music from CD on 8 track so I can listen to it in my car.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mark_k at iname.com Sun Jun 4 19:58:27 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs Message-ID: Hi, This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining classic stuff, so... Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into another device. I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), and heating until the solder melts? It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too long. In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I hope is high enough. Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the pads). -- Mark From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 4 19:12:39 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000604201239.0144e2fc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:54 PM 6/4/00 +0100, you wrote: >If all else fails you could desolder and lift the power pin on each IC. >And then check the resistance between the lifted power pin and ground. >Hopefully you'll find the shorted IC fairly quickly. > >-tony This is the sort of situation where an HP 547A current tracer becomes very handy. No desoldering needed. It may be necessary to feed the board from an alternate, current-limited supply. carlos. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jun 4 20:19:59 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000604181812.029544e0@208.226.86.10> You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift it off. --Chuck At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ From cube1 at home.com Sun Jun 4 17:54:48 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000604171225.05d51600@cirithi> On my older systems you also needed "loopback" plugs at each end (at least I have that on my 11/20, where one of the two connectors on the 11/20 has a plug connecting pins 2 and 3, and at the far end is a plug connecting pins 1 and 2. I just did a little test. I checked my Microvax, a BA23. It puts 555 ohms between pins 1 and 3. Also, if I short pins 1 and 3 on the BA11K holding my 11/34, (or an H720 power supply), it turns it on. So, maybe you can try anyway -- probably would not hurt to try running the 3 wire cable between the BA23 (my MicroVAX BA23's have nothing in pin 2, by the way) and the BA11 (top connector). As an initial test, you could plug your BA11 in, and connect pin 1 to pin 3 and see if it turns it on. Of course, you would not get the "Ground for Off" automatic shutdown capability, but it looks like the BA23 wasn't set up for that anyway, at least on mine. Jay At 06:51 PM 6/3/00 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? > >At one time the DEC power controllers (they're not really sequencers) >were easy enough to find at radio rallies, etc. They're pretty generic >(there are no Unibus or Qbus versions :-)), so something like an 861 or >an 871 would work fine. Have these units now attracted E-overpay prices? > >The other possibility is to make your own power controller. They're not >that complex. The 3 pins on the connector are : > >Ground >Ground-for-off >Ground-for-on > >The 'truth table' is : >Ground-for-off Ground-for-on Power controller relay >Floating Floating Off >Floating Grounded On >Grounded Floating Off >Grounded Grounded Off > >Oh yes, these signals can be at up to 24V, and the supply is sourced by >the power controller. > >Conventionally, in the CPU box, a contact on the power switch, or a >transistor in the PSU, is connected between Ground and Ground-for-on. >Turning on the CPU grounds Ground-for-on and turns on the power >controller relay. This then powers up the rest of the system. >Overheat-protection switches are wired between Ground and Ground-for-off. >If any one of those trips, it turns off every power controller in the system. > >A few mounting boxes (the BA11-K is the most common one) have their own >built-in mini-power-controller for just that box. If you string the >3-wire cables between them, set the toggle switch on the back to >'remote' and plug them all into the mains then turning on the CPU will >turn on the other boxes. But most mounting boxes don't work like this :-( > >I notice Bob Davis has posted some schematics of a power controller, so I'll >comment further there. > >-tony --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 21:14:20 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But plastic gears, at least the plastic gears found in consumer-grade > stuff will crack as well due to said external forces. Modern plastics _do_not_ suffer from mechanical and dimensional stability. They will not just "go bad" due to age, like older plastics and brasses. > Perhaps I've been very lucky, but it all my years of repairing machinery > I have _never_ found a metal gear/pulley/etc that's suffered in this way. > Stripped teeth, sure. Wear due to lack of lubrication, sure. But not > stress-induced cracks. You've been lucky. Also, keep in mind that many of these cracks can not be seen, and do lead to teeth being easily stripped. > Yes, but the problem is that the gears in modern units are not made of > 'today's brass'. Or 'yesterday's brass'. They are made of today's > plastic, often a cheap-n-nasty plastic. A plastic that cracks if you look > at it wrongly, if it gets one drop of oil on it, or whatever. No! As stated before, modern plastics are not cheap-and-nasty. In 50 years they will be the same as they are today. If gears are used improperly, maybe beyond their capabilities (too thin, poorly formed teeth), that's a design issue, and they will wear out. So will the finest brass gears. But my last point about using a found CD-ROM 50 years from now in fairly _unused_ condition is important, as any wear inducing design flaws will not have been given to chance to work their evil. > Yes, that is the issue. We're considering what will be available in 50 > years time (or whatever). And most consumer-grade stuff simply won't be. Certainly it will, it small caches (or singles) found in warehouses, estate sales, hackers that never threw the stuff away, etc.. No, they probably won't be so common that they could be found in days in any city, but they will be far from unobtainable. > Perhaps you can name a single CD-ROM drive that's built with 'today's > brass' and 'today's stable plastics'. And which comes with as much > internal data as you find in 60-year-old Hallicrafters/RCA/etc repair > manuals. If the things work (or most of them - hell, even if the survival rate is just 10 percent in 50 years), no repair manuals will be needed. If you get a bum unit with no manual, go to the next one and see if it works. You will get a good one. > Again you're missing the point. I don't doubt that an expensive unit > today would last even longer than the 28 years that my N1500 has gone. > But there simply aren't any such units about (Every VCR I have looked in > recently has had a much poorer build quality than that N1500). There may > be a few 'professional models that will last, but from what I've seen of > other equipment, I doubt that. You have to compare the N1500 to today's high end and professional models, and not the regular stuff. Your N1500 was far from "commercial grade made for the masses". > It very much is the issue if you want a workign unit in 50 years time. > Nobody realistically expects to take a 50-year-old unit off the shelf and > turn it on. We expect to have to do minor repairs. And why will all 50 year old CD-ROMs go automatically bad? Will it be because of the materials of the chassis changing? Well, no, not really. Will it be because of the chips going bad? Well, some will, but certainly not all (no fineline geometries here). Will it be because of corrosion? Well, certainly some, but many will be found in a stable environment. Will the lubrication go bad? No, modern lubricants are very stable (easy to change, anyway). Will the motor go bad? Probably not - motor technolgy is quite mature. So exactly what do you think is the aspect that will damn all CD-ROMs to a broken state 50 years from now? > Well, while it may take a lot less time to change one ASIC than to recap > an old radio, I doubt it's going to be as easy to get the parts. If they are not bad, why replace? Why assume that every chip will have gone bad? > You seem to think that old brass gears in the tuning drive of said old > radio might well develop stress cracks. You're probably right. But > cutting gears is well within the capability of a well-equipped home > workshop. Makeing undocumented ASICs certainly isn't. There will be plenty of donors. > Seriously, what has that got to do with it? Running the unit may cause > wear on mechanical bits, but surely it shouldn't start a process that > causes the unit to die, any sooner than it would have done, when powered off > and packed away. If it does, then why doesn't the factory burn-in test > start this decay process? The decay due to time alone is getting _very_ minimal, thanks to the modern materials. Use is the thing that will kill these units, far faster than time alone. "No use" results in "very little decay". "Daily use" results in "quick fatigue". William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Jun 4 17:21:40 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006050221.e552LUc27637@admin.cgocable.net> > From: Mark > To: classiccmp > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:58:27 +0000 > Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Hi, > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? Get a old heavy alumium baking pan and start cooking on electric or gas. Heat on high starting with piece of solder wire dabbling the pan till solder melts and balls up then turn low bit towards medium. Wait for few minutes, then tap the chips you want to take till it is free and pick them up with tweezers or needle long nose pliers. I often find the melting point of solder is hot enough even on low on any stoves. Warning: It will smell if heat is too high. For those dual SOJ or gull wing (not the quad SOJ/gullwing kind), I take two 40W solder irons (grounded) and melt excessive solder acts as heat capacity to keep solder molten and keep moving both solder together. Till chip is loose then pinch the chip with the solder iron tips quickly lift up and let it drop on the metal or cardboard. Clean leads up with fresh blob of solder dragged across them by holding the chip vertical using gravity and surface torison do the work. I do that same for installing all SOJ and gull wing pitch of .025 by tacking two leads down to hold it in place and solder excessively then drag the blob, solder will want to leave the leads and try to run off at the last pin but you can prevent it when moving the solder tip carefully. > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. All cooking of any types are hot enough, over 500F on high without water load. Heated metals that are glowing red and orange ia over 1000F and bit more. Because of this glow the water has very high specific heat capacity and that takes so much heat to bring it to boil quickly and keep it there. Oh yes can melt cheap aluminum spun thin pots with a stove. I had this happen few times. Without warning too. Look at burned buses and airplaces, aluminum melted because fire is hot enough. > -- Mark Wizard From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 4 22:50:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <001801bfcea1$2d4de780$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The blowtorch has served me well in this context. When a board is not important to you and the components are, it's possible to do that with a propane torch of the inexpensive variety. It's important that they put out considerable heat, however. I've found my Weller butane torch to be not terribly useful in this regard. You can use a typical butane torch of the type you normally use to solder copper plumbing to heat the component leads, and quickly if that's possible. I often char the board but if you make the traces come off along with the IC, you're probably overdoing it. Normally, I heat the board from the component side in the case of surface mounted parts, knocking it against the table. Unless you really want to make yourself sick, this is best done outdoors. Afterward, in fact, immediately afterward, it's advisable to toss your clothing worn during this process into the laundry. A shower will relieve the pungent odor, somewhat garlic-like that you'll put out for the rest of the time before your next ablution. My luck has been remarkably good using this technique, but there have been occasions when it wasn't so good. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark To: classiccmp Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:58 PM Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs > Hi, > > This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining > classic stuff, so... > > > Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board > undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into > another device. > > I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the > board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off > when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? > > It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. > Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on > the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too > long. > > In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. > > > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. > > Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? > > > > I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount > components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the > pads). > > > -- Mark > From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 4 22:52:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: <4.3.1.2.20000604181812.029544e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <002601bfcea1$8683bbe0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The solder wick method can work, but one is tempted to lift up on the pins to pop the part loose, which will deform them forever. If you're better at it than I am, you might succeed with that method. The gull-wing parts I've used after using this extraction method have always been a source of trouble, needing special care to solder them into a new application. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that > is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a > very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the > pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift it > off. > --Chuck > > > At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: > >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 4 22:11:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > The thing about WW2 surplus is that most of it uses standard components > that are still either easy to find today or easy to make using relatively > simple tools. For example just about the only bits in my AR88 receiver > that I couldn't go out and buy would be the transformers. And it's not > that difficult to rewind a transformer at home. The ex-military technical > manuals are very complete, and are not hard to find reprints of. This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jun 4 23:20:48 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 04, 2000 08:11:05 PM Message-ID: <200006050420.WAA28120@calico.litterbox.com> > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as > child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet receiver. *sigh* You're making me want to get my 1940 philco working again. I need to replace the filter caps, at least. It hums. Also need to clean the tuner. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 00:01:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Yes and no. The HF ("shortwave") radio equipment was nothing new to the amateur radio people. The tubes were all standard parts, manuals were very complete, and the stuff was cheap enough that a few experiments could go wrong. VHF radio was a bit different, but quite a few guys went on and got the stuff to mostly work. Anything with microwaves generally left the hams scratching their heads and giving up. Radar components and UHF radios used tubes seldom or never seen in the public sector (I have a magnetron actually marked "secret" - in 1943 that was _very_ secure). Waveguides and tuned stubs just "look like" they shouldn't work. The TV guided glide bomb stuff had dozens more tubes than anything seen by the hams. Most of the manuals for these systems were classified and never were released. There were, however, enough people that did play with these new technologies, and did things they only dreamed about before the war. As for standard parts, the (few) Germans had the best deal. Their surplus (after the war, although technically/politically it was Allied property) used very standardized parts, almost to the point of being wasteful. It meant, however, that a German ham could cobble up something easily, and true to the German tradition, the radios (and radars) were extremely well engineered. The American hams also had it good - quality surplus at dirt cheap prices, much of it never used. The U.S. tube system was very standardized, and most hams could get things to work quite easily with no real worries about parts. The British were next on the ladder - once again, lots of cheap surplus, but not quite as nice as the German or U.S. stuff. The government tube system certainly led to headaches (it is complex, to say the least), but British hams were no slouches adapting things to work, or finding what they needed. The Japanese...well...less said the better. Even the Japanese fighter and bomber pilots preffered _not_ to have the radios in their planes. > Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as > child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. I think so. Most importantly, they will have tools that are fantasy today. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 00:09:33 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006050420.WAA28120@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made > from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go > together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet > receiver. The really are no WW2 civilian radios (very few were made). People had to do with what they had before the war, until the surplus floodgate opened in 1946. Hams were shut down during the war - some even "persuaded" to sell or donate their receivers to the government (in 1941, U.S. military electronics was a crying shame). Nearly all TV development stopped and turned over to the government. In general - a bad time to be a hacker. You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 5 00:33:06 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: <002601bfcea1$8683bbe0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: The classic way of removing SOJ parts is to use two soldering irons and a big blob of solder on both rows of pins. The solder blobs heat all the pins simultaneously and the chip can be slid right off. Also, you'll be removing the chip without damage -and- you can easily clean up the PC pads to install a new chip. It's a great Silicon Valley hack I've see here performed many times. -Mike On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The solder wick method can work, but one is tempted to lift up on the pins > to pop the part loose, which will deform them forever. If you're better at > it than I am, you might succeed with that method. The gull-wing parts I've > used after using this extraction method have always been a source of > trouble, needing special care to solder them into a new application. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck McManis > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:19 PM > Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > > > > You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that > > is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a > > very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the > > pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift > it > > off. > > --Chuck > > > > > > At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: > > >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically > SOJ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 5 00:57:15 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 05, 2000 01:09:33 AM Message-ID: <200006050557.XAA28505@calico.litterbox.com> > > > What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made > > from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go > > together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet > > receiver. > > The really are no WW2 civilian radios (very few were made). People had to > do with what they had before the war, until the surplus floodgate opened > in 1946. Hams were shut down during the war - some even "persuaded" to > sell or donate their receivers to the government (in 1941, U.S. military > electronics was a crying shame). Nearly all TV development stopped and > turned over to the government. > > In general - a bad time to be a hacker. > > You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were > made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. Yup, that's what I'm thinking of. I've dealt with two tube radios, one of which is now gone, sadly. One was a 4 tube 1945 sears radio, and one is my 1940 philco, which I *think* is a 5 tube unit that gets AM and shortwave. Last time I had it working I was getting the BBC in London with it, and a few other big powerful shortwave stations on the other side of the atlantic. I've since been given a quite powerful modern receiver and it's just not as much fun. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 5 04:10:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <393B8AB0.5937.1F4678DC@localhost> > I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held > "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also > sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance > someplace). Although everybody honores Nixdorf, the LK 3000 is only an OEM Produkt, and Lexicon (whoever this is, no data) is the original designer/manufacturer. Also for the Dates, the Lexicon LK debuted in late 1978, While the Nixdorf version has first been seen (in Germany) around late 1979 (I checked some old magazines). > Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that > made the thing user programmable, for example? Lots of language modules, mainly English<->xxx and German<->xxx (More English than German Modules have been availabel - I have to take a look at some lists back home. Also two special informational Modules for the Olympics (English), and a statistics package. I have an unfinished project floating around to document the LK 3000... > Is anybody aware of a pre-1979 programable handheld? I suppose something > like the HP-65 is a candidate, but an alpha-numeric keyboard and display > would be more compelling. AFAIR there has been something from Casio ... I'll have to check. > Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense > at somebody calling it the first PDA? Jep, I would, a PDA is a bit more than a fixed (ROM) programmable device. Also there have been other 'translator' type thingies. > (No, I'm not selling one on eBay. There is one for sale there now -- it's > overpriced, though. These things aren't exactly rare.) :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wrm at ccii.co.za Mon Jun 5 10:04:46 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Woz and his (give or take) six chips Message-ID: <200006051504.NAA13312@ccii.co.za> Mike Cheponis needs to know... http://www.retro.co.za/apple/ W From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 5 07:42:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: my hack is a bit cleaner... Two weller or ungar elements with various sized screw on blocks of copper that have been shaped for the job of heating both sides at once mounted in a handle that is adjustable. Workes well for boards being repaird. for non working board and salvage parts I tourch them off directly or use some tooled copper to heat specific parts. Years of stripping salvage for choice transistors and what not gained me good practice. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 5 07:53:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:25 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006050557.XAA28505@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > > You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were > > made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. Basic lineup for the common 5 tube Am reciever that was of average performance. Over the years I've delt with dozens of recivers and not a few transmitters many of which are post WWII and pre transistor and I've found them pretty standardized in and well built or very cheap depending on intended market. Common problems were failed paper caps, Electrolytics dried up and rubber insulation dead from time and heat. All of which were easy to fix. The occasional mechanical problem was often dried/dead grease or abuse to tuning mechs often easily repaired. The best tube set I'd had was a RBO-2 shipboard AM (550-1600, 3-15mhz) rack mount tube unit that weighed about 40-50 pounds and built like a tank. Gave it way working before a move as a very useable ham RX for AM. Other military stuff like the ARC series command sets and BC series were often well built though they did have problems with them in the tropics. By time I was playing with them I'd found them useful but the circuits were to say the least not state of the art for their time and reflected mass production in a hurry. They however were valuable sources of parts for tuners and the like. I'd still buy a command set now for restore or parts. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 5 08:04:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD97@TEGNTSERVER> > >Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first > >generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well > >today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a > >old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs > >that use them) > > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > but that counts, right?) > > For old-music-CD's, who here remembers the "Preemphasis" bit? I've got > a player that indicates that status on the display, though the only CD > I have that uses it is a special test disk. Here's another one for those with long memories. Who remembers subcode graphics? I have one audio CD that contains subcode graphics that I've never been able to view (they're encoded in something like the Euro Teletext format). Anyone know how to read and display subcode graphics? -doug q From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 09:09:26 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved Message-ID: I saved a DEC rainbow from the landfill this morning. I have the system, the monitor but no keyboard. Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly some software for it? thanks! Since I don't have a keyboard, I don't konw if there is anything on the hard drive. -Bob From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 5 09:37:38 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as looking through some hobbyist magazines of that era and earlier, as well as talking to people who were hobbyists back then, could provide the answer... this would be interesting to discuss with the older hobbyists found at hamfests. I guess at one point finding things like enameled wire and cat's whiskers (no, these didn't come from cats) was more difficult than it is now, although at one point, it was easier than it is now, I understand. Has anyone else found that from a hobbyists perepective, modern digital electronics, with all the blasted surface mount chips and ASICS, etc., is less fun than building circuits with tubes and transistors? Of course, even finding tubes and the right transistors was a pain back in the 1970's, and one couldn't get parts one needed from some electronics distributors, who were often the only one that one could get certain components from, without "creating" a company name and title to give to the sales idiots who wouldn't even talk to, or sell, a hobbyist parts. Of course, now, with the Internet, finding parts is much easier than it was back when local electonics stores (e.g., within a couple of miles, there were at least two other places besides Radio Shack to get parts: LaFayette (typically a worse selection than Radio Shack) and an independent place called Everything Electronic that had bins of surplus items in addition to a parts counter and things like car radios. Mail order through companies listed in electroncis catalogs still seemed to be the best way to find things that were difficult to find, and they were less expensive. Just my 2-cents worth. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Jun 5 09:46:12 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Internet Radio In-Reply-To: <000601bfcd6a$1a24a5a0$483263c3@gaz> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:28:22 +0100 Gareth Knight wrote: > Yesterday I found an old LW/MW radio in a second-hand shop that was labelled > an 'Internet Radio' on the box. I found one a few months ago in a car boot sale in Bristol, England. > The radio itself has 'Internet 10' printed > on the front and was produced by a company based in Kent, England. From the > design it seems to be late 1950s/ early 1960s. I have an advert for "Internet Radio (Products) Ltd." pinned to the wall here. They were at 100-102 Beckenham Road, Beckenham, Kent BR3 4RH. The Model J70 radio is shown, MW/LW, battery operated, UKP 4.72, post and packing included. The ad was in Practical Wireless in about 1973. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 10:07:35 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Other military stuff like the ARC series command sets and BC series were > often well built though they did have problems with them in the tropics. The Command Sets (RAT, RAV, ARA/ATA, SCR-274N, and AN/ARC-5 for the model number fanatics) never really had a problem in the Tropics. None of them ever needed MFP ("Moisure and Fungus Proofing - an arsenic laced varnish sprayed over the chassis much like a conformal coating). The sets that did need MFP badly because the jungle started growing in the radios in a matter of days were the Marine Corps sets - TBO, TBW, TBX, TBY, SCR-300 (BC-1000, as commonly known). Incidently, the Command Sets (named as they were designed for plane to plane short range command communications) were THE king hacker raw material for years after the war - way into the 1960s. There were thousands of ways to convert them, and no doubt all of them were tried. Many classic computer hackers learned the ropes ripping into these old radios. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From richard at idcomm.com Mon Jun 5 10:19:08 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <000901bfcf01$663c2d80$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The thing I've noticed over the past few years is that there are more and more really small parts that could be of use once you've relegated your subject board to the rubbish heap. Space is always a problem in small circuits and I've dealt with that to large extent by using the small components that are on many of today's dense boards. Keeping them from getting too hot is fairly important, though I've had pretty good yields. Once I've determined I'll sacrifice a board for its components, I put a cookie sheet with about 3.8" of water in it on the table on my patio. Then, I start by heating the back side of any through-hole components I want to salvage, often using a tool to remove them from the board. Then, I go after the front-side surface-mounted parts, not heating them directly, but heating the space between them, i.e. heating the pads where they're soldered to the board. Once those are thoroughly heated, (usually with light charring and blistering in the case of multilayered boards) I rap the board's component side against the edge of the table, causing the loose components to fall into the water in the cookie sheet. I don't know how well this works for cooling the larger parts, but I've had pretty good luck all around. I find it much more difficult to find out the values of the passives that end up in the cookie sheet, which are pretty handy for sticking a "fix" on the back of an IC, but it surely doesn't hurt them, and it keeps them from bouncing all over the place. After I'm done, there are very few bent pins and all I have to do is pour the water through a sieve to get the teensy little passives, SOT's etc. Then I can spend endless hours picking out these SO parts and trying to figure out what's what. It's not much fun, but it beats watching TV. Dick > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 5 12:41:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly >some software for it? No idea on the software, but all you need for a keyboard is a LK201, and I believe a LK401 should work. Since you've got the monitor sounds like you've already got the hard part to get. The LK201 is the keyboard that was used on VT200's, VT300's, Rainbow's, Dec Professionals, and DECmate's. As well as some VAXstations. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 5 13:19:24 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD97@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000605131819.029183c0@pc> At 09:04 AM 6/5/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >Here's another one for those with long memories. Who remembers >subcode graphics? I have one audio CD that contains subcode >graphics that I've never been able to view (they're encoded in >something like the Euro Teletext format). >Anyone know how to read and display subcode graphics? You mean CD+G? Most karaoke players handle it. I also remember that Commodore's CD-32 handled it, so I would guess there's Amiga-based CD-32 emulation software that'll handle it, too. - John From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 13:23:33 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? thanks! -Bob > >Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly > >some software for it? > >No idea on the software, but all you need for a keyboard is a LK201, and I >believe a LK401 should work. Since you've got the monitor sounds like >you've already got the hard part to get. > >The LK201 is the keyboard that was used on VT200's, VT300's, Rainbow's, Dec >Professionals, and DECmate's. As well as some VAXstations. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 5 13:55:36 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!) In-Reply-To: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) Message-ID: <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> I've been of for the hollydays, so now some comments. I'd still favour a XML defined markup for this. Someone (John ?) said cutting edge .. why ? XML itself is nothing, it's only aset of rules to describe markup languages. In fact, XML is just a simplified (and bastardised) SGML, posibly to promote the idea. Nobody has to know anything about XML (although it helps) to use one of these Languages. Like one can do well formed HTML without knowing about XML, a Data Image Markup Language can be used without XML - But defining it in XML will give a huge advantage in tool usage. There are plenty of libraries and tool collections to handle markup languages with a XML based definition. These tools are to help development and not restrict. There is no need to build a XML parser for an Apple ][ or a TRS (Or a CoCo - Hi Bill:), unless someone likes to. The target systems don't need any knowledge about XML either - they need to dechipher the markup language. Read: they have to know that identifies the start of the description of track zero of said disk. Of course the usage of a parser framework may reduce programming, but there's no _must_ to do so. The same is true for a system writing an image file - it doesn't need to know XML - if the programm produces a well formed output (and that's a basic must for every format) all will work fine. XML changes nothing at first - like any other general standard. The benefit is in the long term when people are able to build advanced tools based on this standards without knowing about every specific single usage - My most favoured example is still the ordinary screw and bolt. Standardizeing this simple thing has allowed toolmakers to produce a wide variety of tools handeling them , from simple manual wrenches over prneumatic or electric to 100% robotic devices ... and these tools work (almost) in every situation ... we don't need a special wrench for Atari screws or Commodore ... Of course I prefer the metric screw system, but when looking closer it could be different, maybe better in some aspects for different situations ... but that's no real issue, the fact of having one system offers more benefit than anything else. BTW: Did I already mention that I _personaly_ think XML is a poor design ? And If I sound like a old XML freak, I'm not, until some 8 Month ago I did ignore XML (and I did even fight it), then I had to define some markup and tried XML ... no big deal (exept the real crapy standard document) - and an instant gain thru independant structure checking and problem reporting, without writing my own tools to check everything. Well, back to our theme: Pete, I realy agree to your idea about a sensible editor, just we are living in a real world, where real software is to be used. And since this is supposed to be an open standard, a sensible editior can't be assumed... Even if we would try, I doubt that such a thing is available on every obscure home computer system. Even chances for a simple text editor can be bad. So including binary as default is a bad idea - I would even go further and restrict all markup specific parts for only using the characters A-Z, 0-9 and some well defined (read only the absolute necersary minimum) characters. Remember, not every Computer system offers lower case or ASCII at all (This is also the reason why my definition did only include uper case tags, while XML encurages lower case). I can't stretch this fact far enough: Don't assume that binary data transfer is possible between two systems - as soon as you do, you will exclude possible usages. A format to be choosen shouls at least allow to transport the neto data in non binary form - a better way would be to allow different encodings, so _neutral_ converters may change the data representation without interpreting the content. Example: to save disk space data chunks (sektors) are stored binary - but since the encoding is just another parameter of the data tag, it may be convertetd to a base64 encoding _without_ interpreting the content other than converting the encoding. This may be done by a third party tool (remember about the advantages of standards for tool variety?) After all, we are talking about puting _yesterdays_ data on _todays_ storage (and not the other way around). Let'S just assume we would need three times - oh, well lets say four times the space to encode so an Apple Disk will need a whooping 600 kb ... Boy, we are talking about 2000s storage, thats the year then 40 gig drives droped below 250 USD including taxes. The equivalent of 10 Gig markup coded data, or about 70,000 Apple disks (143 k each). Somehow I doubt that someone will ever collect that amount. And even Windows is now able to compress data on the fly. This may reduce it close to the original size, maybe even less (in our example we store now something like a quater million of disks on one 250 Dollar IDE drive...) As far as I see this call, it's to define a format for more than just a specific system or format - so reducing it to a hard coded thing with just a few numbers would turn away most possible usage. Even further, restricting it to floppy disk like structures would render it non usable. Of course I may describe a CBM disk written on a 4040 drive - but what about the same data stored on tape drives ? Also, looking on Sallams definition even some floppy structures are excluded - where is variable speed, where are possible tracks of more than 64k, and how to encode spiral tracks (no, I'm not talking about Apple copy protection schemes, but rather flopy drives writing only one big track, like on a CD - In fact, medias like these micro drives (as used by some sharp machines) are in more danger than some Apple disk ... you still get enough drives and disks to replicate them. The same is true for other once common medias, which fall in similar categories. just remember the Sinclair micro drives. Maybe never common in the US, but for shure on the Island and within Europe. Defining only a standard for FD data means closing the eyes about all the fast fading data storage history. One may define one ore maybe two standars, but soon you'll loose - and the forgotten medias will loose. If there'S some effort to invest, it should be spend on a standard to cover as many as possible medias, and it should be extensible to add missing medias on the fly. A format to be choosen should be able of the 10 following things (with no special order): - Be able to handle all kinds of stuff from Card Storages and paper tapes, over real tapes and audio cassettes, spiral floppies and micro drives to FDs, HDs and CDs... and what ever is coming (althoug I belive that the number of new concepts is shrinking). - Define an abstract view (like tracks and sectors) - Allow the addition of physical descriptions when needed - (Possibly) Allow the definition of 'hardwaredependant' structures (ALthough this now crosses into the path of emulator definitions) - Expandable in several ways (including content encoding) - Transportable between machines, codes and OSes - Allow robust encoding - Able to be integrated into other definitions (like being integrated in a storage situation description) - simple encodable / simple decodable - Allow the encoding of multiple media within a single transfer unit (aka file). (Especialy nuber 8 and 10 is important when going to do more than just storing a disk image) I still think a XML based markup language is a good choice. I would suggest a multiple level design: - Level one is a language to describe the logical content of a media. - Level two would define 'physical' descriptions, like disk encoding etc. - Level three defines a storage landscape In the end these 3 levels should be interoperating. For example: One would encode the logical content of a disk using the Level 1 tags. A top level tag (like 'MEDIA' may include a reference to a Level 2 description telling that the disk is MFM encoded but Track 0 side 0 is FM. This will be good for 99,99% of all encoded data disks - but for special situations, like a copy protection scheme, where track 17 is also FM the reevant tags will cary override informations to tell the difference. Level 3 may be used to define a situation where a computer has 4 disk drives and tells which media (disks) are mounted in which drive. Or define a set of medias belonging to one situation (like puting all 23 OS/2 2.0 disks into one image). Anyway, I'm geting tired ... Gruss H. P.S.: still nobody to decode my disk example ? -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 5 14:15:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? > >thanks! > >-Bob Not a helpfull answer, but just about anywhere you find DEC hardware. I'm just dumbfounded the system had a monitor, but not the keyboard. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 5 14:11:43 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion Message-ID: <012d01bfcf21$e30095c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Hi Leo, bad news, I'm afraid. When I went back to my local thrift shop on the weekend, the Hyperion that had been there for a few weeks was gone. I asked the clerk if she knew whether it had sold or been dumpstered, but she had no clue. A quick check of the dumpster didn't turn up anything either : v ( Still, I'll keep my eyes open. They do seem to turn up every now and again around here. They must have been popular with the oilpatch guys, who were on the road a lot. Regards, Mark Gregory From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 14:31:29 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found it at the curb on garbage day....the cpu case..and the monitor was nearby...but no keyboard to be found. -Bob > >Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? > > > >thanks! > > > >-Bob > >Not a helpfull answer, but just about anywhere you find DEC hardware. I'm >just dumbfounded the system had a monitor, but not the keyboard. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From owad at applefritter.com Mon Jun 5 14:48:40 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Fwd: HX-20 Message-ID: <200006051951.MAA03233@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Can anybody help her out? Respond to CTI@ncentral.com, not me. Tom ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 6/5/00 7:08 AM Received: 6/5/00 2:20 PM From: Kimberly Bauer, CTI@ncentral.com To: owad@applefritter.com Tom, Browsed your information and thought maybe you could direct us to a parts center for HX-20. In need of the optional mini cassette recorder. Please reply to: Kim Bauer Contact Technologies, Inc CTI@ncentral.com ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From lbutzel at home.com Mon Jun 5 13:01:30 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: <012d01bfcf21$e30095c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <003501bfcf18$13fee5a0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Mark - Thanks for tracking after the Hyperion. I will keep you posted of any progress I make. Regards Leo ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gregory To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > Hi Leo, > > bad news, I'm afraid. When I went back to my local thrift shop on the > weekend, the Hyperion that had been there for a few weeks was gone. I asked > the clerk if she knew whether it had sold or been dumpstered, but she had > no clue. A quick check of the dumpster didn't turn up anything either : v > ( > > Still, I'll keep my eyes open. They do seem to turn up every now and again > around here. They must have been popular with the oilpatch guys, who were > on the road a lot. > > Regards, > > Mark Gregory > > From emu at ecubics.com Mon Jun 5 15:44:37 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved References: Message-ID: <00b101bfcf2e$e4017810$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: Bob Brown > I saved a DEC rainbow from the landfill this morning. > > I have the system, the monitor but no keyboard. > > Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly > some software for it? plaese have a look at: ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/rainbow/ cheers, emanuel From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 5 17:45:19 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> Message-ID: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> Will 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' please contact me, this is about the paid but never received ebay item. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 5 16:15:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!) In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!)" (Jun 5, 20:55) References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2 0:48) <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> Message-ID: <10006052215.ZM1486@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 5, 20:55, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, back to our theme: > Pete, I realy agree to your idea about a sensible editor, just > we are living in a real world, where real software is to be used. > And since this is supposed to be an open standard, a sensible > editior can't be assumed... Even if we would try, I doubt that > such a thing is available on every obscure home computer system. > Even chances for a simple text editor can be bad. So including > binary as default is a bad idea :-) I only included it because there appeared to some strong opposition to "wasted" bytes. What I did was bolt tags onto the binary, deliberately producing what Tony accurately described as the worst of both worlds. Actually, if you look at the examples, the ASCII form in the tags, at least, typically takes just about the same space as the binary would, so there's absolutely no reason to use anything but ASCII. > - I would even go further and > restrict all markup specific parts for only using the characters > A-Z, 0-9 and some well defined (read only the absolute necersary > minimum) characters. Thereby avoiding 99.9% of the problems raised by incompatible character set representations. Agreed. > Let'S just assume we would need three times - oh, well lets > say four times the space to encode so an Apple Disk will > need a whooping 600 kb That's only a thousand on a CD ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Jun 5 16:18:16 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: New Find! Rolm 1602... Does anyone have any info/pointers/etc...? Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E5D@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Hi! I just picked up a Rolm 1602 system at a local hamfest. It looks like an interesting toy (and a way to expand my horizons beyond the Sun/SGI/Dec arena. It even has a front panel interface :-) The unit seems to be in pretty decent shape (apparently it did not go through "Military" (i.e. sledgehammer) decommissioning, as the party I bought it from indicated that he obtained it from a NASA surplus auction). Unfortunately, there were no docs whatsoever with this critter. I seem to vaguely remember that some of the Rolm systems were just repackaged and beefed-up Data General Novas, but I could be wrong. Can anyone provide me with info/pointers/tech docs on this critter? I've done a web search and a dejanews search, but haven't had any luck. I even checked through some of the classiccmp archives, since I remembered seeing something on a Rolm system here a few months back, but I was unable to locate anything. Some of the things I'd like to know (or find pointers to): Hardware interface pinouts/docs: i.e. where do I connect an ASCII terminal... (There is no obvious serial connector, i.e. DB25, etc. All the connectors are some sort of mil-std twist-lock jobs) Does this critter have a disk interface of some sort, etc. Power requirements and pinouts: The previous owner had an AC line cord attached to a connector on the back, but I don't necessarily trust that he knew what he was doing. Is this really capable of running at 117V@60Hz, or did it need something oddball like 400Hz? Instruction set documentation: So I can play with the front panel :-) Software: i.e. Did this thing have a simple executive program of some sort? I downloaded Bob Supnik's Nova emulator in the hope that it might provide me with some hints as to Nova architecture, but there wasn't much documentation there. Will a Rolm 1602 run DG Nova code? If so, is there an archive of DG Nova software somewhere? The back of this critter uses a bunch of what looks like mil-std twist-lock connectors. Does anyone know an (affordable) source for these? I'm going to try pulling it apart tonight (It appears to be held together by about 17,000 screws :-). Any info would be greatly appreciated.... -Thanks in advance... -al- -acorda@geocities.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:04:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000604171225.05d51600@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Jun 4, 0 05:54:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/1ca15f17/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:35:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 0 01:01:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/d5ecee5d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:10:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at Jun 5, 0 00:58:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/0fcff52c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:24:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 10:14:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/bf133d67/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:31:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 4, 0 08:11:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2071 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/d8298c4d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 16:28:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: from "Bob Brown" at Jun 5, 0 09:09:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/fefbd529/attachment-0001.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jun 5 16:57:35 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: New Find! Rolm 1602... Does anyone have any info/pointers/etc...? References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E5D@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <393C224F.A8E20815@mainecoon.com> Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > The unit seems to be in pretty decent shape (apparently it did not > go through "Military" (i.e. sledgehammer) decommissioning, > as the party I bought it from indicated that he obtained it from a > NASA surplus auction). Unfortunately, there were no docs > whatsoever with this critter. I seem to vaguely remember that > some of the Rolm systems were just repackaged and beefed-up > Data General Novas, but I could be wrong. Yep, you're wrong :-) With the exception of one model (of which a grand total of three were built) ROLM never did "punches"; the machines were always of their design and frequently had architectural extensions. The 16XX series are post-nova 800 with stack support, but in an utterly different and incompatable fashion from that found in the Nova 3. I don't recall if it had 64K extended mode a la Keronix and DCC, but I wouldn't be surprised. A consequence of this is that not all Nova code will run on the 16XX; just as DG reclaimed some meaningless instruction codings (which could be used as NOPs) to implement the Eclipse instruction set, ROLM claimed some for their extensions. The exposure to problems, however, is probably quite small -- less for an early machine like the 1602 as opposed to the later 1666B. [snip] > Some of the things I'd like to know (or find pointers to): > > Hardware interface pinouts/docs: > i.e. where do I connect an ASCII > terminal... (There is no obvious serial connector, > i.e. DB25, etc. All the connectors are some > sort of mil-std twist-lock jobs) Yep, and not all of them are fixed-function. J1-12 on one machine might well be something utterly different on another. I'm not positive where the basic I/O stuff comes out, but I may be able to find one of my fellow ROLM alumini who does. > Does this critter have a disk interface of > some sort, etc. It might -- or might not. It depends on the application that the machine was used in; a nontrivial number of the 16XXs were employed in diskless applications running a purely memory-resident operating system. A very large number of these were used in the GLCM/SLCM erector and launch control systems. If the machine *does* have a disk interface it's likely to be a diabloesque interface to one of ROLMs semi-proprietary drives. > Power requirements and pinouts: > The previous owner had an AC line cord > attached to a connector on the back, > but I don't necessarily trust that he knew what > he was doing. Is this really capable of running > at 117V@60Hz, or did it need something oddball > like 400Hz? It depends on how it was optioned. Most will accept a fairly wide frequency range on input. Unlike some other manufacturers, ROLM built a single machine for all branches of the service. This in turn caused some other problems; hardware capable of withstanding the Navy's sledgehammer test was usually on the heavy side as far as the air force was concerned and the Navy really didn't care if the machines operated to 60,000ft... > Instruction set documentation: > So I can play with the front panel :-) I'll see what can be dredged up. It's been a *very* long time. > Software: > i.e. Did this thing have a simple executive program of some > sort? Not in the sense of something in ROM. ROLM software for the thing included ARTS ("advanced real time system") and some memory-resident thing whose name escapes me. Much of the latter stuff was written in a C-like language called MSL, which tried to dodge around the problems inherent in byte pointers on the Nova. > I downloaded Bob Supnik's Nova emulator in the hope that > it might provide me with some hints as to Nova architecture, > but there wasn't much documentation there. Will a Rolm 1602 run > DG Nova code? If so, is there an archive of DG Nova > software somewhere? It should run most Nova code; it will be things like MMAP controls that might break. As for a Nova archive -- not that I know of, although it's on my to-do list. > The back of this critter uses a bunch of what looks like mil-std > twist-lock connectors. Does anyone know an (affordable) > source for these? I'm going to try pulling it apart tonight > (It appears to be held together by about 17,000 screws :-). And you'll find about 17,000 more inside. Each board has a sealed metal cover; if you peel that off you'll find the chips mounted so they straddle metal rails. In order to meet fungus and salt-spray (and to a lesser extent, altitude) Mil Specs the cases are gasketed and some were pressurized with dry N2 -- so obviously blow through cooling won't work. The metal frames and the metal lids comprise the so-called "thermal frame" which conducts heat to the sides of the ATR chassis, where in most machines they attached blow-through heat exchangers. Boy, I haven't thought about this stuff since 1984, so I may be off on some of it... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 5 17:17:41 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006052217.PAA08145@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is > one of those gas-powered soldering irons (the ones that run on butane > lighter fuel) with a hot air blower tip. Run it round the IC, and you'll > find that the solder melts and the chip will come off easily enough. > > I have heard of the paint-stripper type of hot air gun being used for > this, with a suitable small-diameter nozzle. But I've never tried that. Hi I've used the shrink tubing guns and they work OK. These are a little more controlled than a blow torch. For a large boards of dual inline IC's, I've use peanut oil. It has a high enough temperature that it can melt solder, with a frying pan. I use some long tweezer. To keep them cool I use a fan ( Don't put them in water. A drop of water in the oil will be explosive. ). When done, I wash the parts in dish soap. Regardless of which you use, make sure to wear eye protection!!! Dwight From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 5 20:33:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark" at Jun 5, 0 00:58:27 am Message-ID: >Be aware that most manufacturers do not recomend reusing desoldered >surface-mount devices. That said, it seems to be possible to remove and Not exactly in their best interest to tell you go ahead and reuse the old parts. >The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is Doesn't anybody have a solder pot? Thats what pretty much all the scrappers I know use to remove parts. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 19:52:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 5, 0 05:33:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/5de530bf/attachment-0001.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 20:32:54 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But by 1945 the cavity magnetron was documented to some extent (probably > enough to make one if you understood Maxwell's Equations ;-)) in the ARRL > handbook. FWIW, this book was published _before_ the war ended. That is because the Japanese and Germans had them - no longer a secret. The Japanese actually were quite far advanced in the art of the magnetron. For that matter, SCR-268 radars (first generation U.S. searchlight and gun control radars) were being sold as surplu before the war ended, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 20:45:32 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't dispute that there are modern plastics that are very stable and > have a long life. But I doubt that they're used in consumer-grade CD-ROM > drives or VCRs. They are, simply because the formulations have changed across the board. You can't getthe bad plastics anymore, they just are long since out of production. > Some are. Some aren't. In my experience, the ones used in consumer-grade > stuff are not the latest plastics. They are neither stable nor > long-life. Period. Well, I made my point, and am not going to continue beating a dead horse. > Well, it was a consumer-grade unit. And how much did it cost? Probably a good week's pay... > Plastic gears cracking and falling off. You think this is a non-problem, > I've seen it happen far too often to trust it won't. Other plastic parts > will fail due to stress. Adjustments (turntable height -> focus) will be > lost. No comment anymore. > Chips failing due to : > Thermal stresses cracking bondout wires (this happens in powered-down > equipment) > Contamination getting into the device/dopant migration (not common, but > certainly possible after 50 years) > Bit Rot. The microcontrollers may well use OTP EPROM or E2PROM program > memeory. We worry about bit-rot in our classic computers. It's a > problem in other devices as well Uhhh...integrated circuit technology has progressed as well, and we are not talking about cutting-edge fineline traces on the dies. > Electrolytic capacitors, particularly SMD ones failing. This is a major > problem in modern-ish camcorders, BTW. The problem is not replacing the > capacitors (which are easy to get, well-understood, and thus could be > made in 50 years time). It's that they leak a corrosive electrolyte which > will make a right mess of the multi-layer PCB. Seen it happen. Seen it > happen in modern devices. And capacitor technology... > No, not every device will fail, sure. But I think rather more will fail > than you might think. And they will not be easily repairable. I've made my point a few times over now, and this will be my last word on the matter - and I don't want this to sound like a flame, but man, you have to get a little faith in what mankind can actually accomplish. That "world of tomorrow" and "technology marches on" stuff may actually mean something... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 5 21:15:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000606021530.22259.qmail@brouhaha.com> > William Donzelli wrote: > I've made my point a few times over now, and this will be my last word on > the matter - and I don't want this to sound like a flame, but man, you > have to get a little faith in what mankind can actually accomplish. That > "world of tomorrow" and "technology marches on" stuff may actually mean > something... "Technology marches on" means new products are better than old ones. For some definition of "better". However, the appropriate definition of "better" almost *never* includes the product actually lasting longer. In high tech gear, this is because longevity is simply not an issue. The manufacturer that sold you a 4x CD-ROM drive a few years ago knew that: 1) you had no way to know how long it would last 2) 4x CD-ROM drives would be obsolete soon and noone would care about them 3) he wanted you to buy his forthcoming 12x CD-ROM drive To the manufacturer, it's a net *loss* if the drive lasts a long time. The countering factor is that the manufacture does NOT want the drive to fail while it's in the warranty period, because that will cost them money, and they don't want too many to fail within a few years, because their reputation would be damaged. So their motivation is to build the products with the least expensive parts that can be expected to last for about five years. To the extent that making a product that will be robust for five years, the manufacturer will use quality materials and parts. But if a gear that will last five years costs $0.0012, and a gear that will last twenty years costs $0.0013, guess which one will be used? You might say that the miniscule difference doesn't justify the cheaper part, even when they buy millions of them. But consider that not only are they buying millions of that part, but millions of all the other parts in the drive as well. If they save a tiny amount of money on each part in each unit, the savings add up to a non-trivial number. From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jun 5 21:37:00 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Amiga Dev. stuff avail in SoCal Message-ID: I have been contacted by a person who was an Amiga developer and who wishes a rather large stash of Amiga Stuff to disappear from his garage, thus precluding the onset of domestic disharmony. And, as conscientious collectors, it behooves us to maintain harmonious domesticity, if in our power to do so... Please contact Don Jenkins at wa6ogh@msn.com for more info. I am posting this for Don, so please contact him directly. Cheers John From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Jun 5 21:45:48 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) References: Message-ID: <393C65DC.1A4EBE58@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one > of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. Jerome Fine replies: I am not sure if we are considering the same thing, but the single block (512 bytes) of code for the secondary MSCP boot program on a PDP-11 (the primary MSCP boot program being the code in the BOOT ROM which is much less than 256 bytes - actually one that can be entered by hand using ODT is only 110 bytes) which is on block zero on the hard disk drive of a PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would be required. I don't think it is possible to fit the rest of the code, data and buffers into just the remaining 128 words even when just one controller or host adapter is allowed and still manage to utilize many hard disk drives each with a maximum total of 8 GBytes - obviously not all physical partitions could be booted from one 64 entry mapping table since even just one 8 GByte drive has 256 physical partitions (as mentioned by Tim Shoppa - how do you even keep track of what is on all 256 partitions, let alone use them all? - envy!!!). But at least with a 64 entry mapping table in the boot block, all 64 partitions mapped for data use can also be booted from inside RT-11 using DUP if they have the necessary system files on those partitions. The problem is to squeeze an extra 56 entries into the mapping table so that DUP can boot all 64 possible partitions (D00: => D77:). >From what I can understand of what the MSCP boot requires, it is not possible to do the rest using just the other 128 words for code and data (buffers can occupy the same space as the mapping table). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Jun 5 22:38:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:07:35AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:07:35AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Incidently, the Command Sets (named as they were designed for >plane to plane short range command communications) were THE king hacker >raw material for years after the war - way into the 1960s. There were >thousands of ways to convert them, and no doubt all of them were tried. Geez, now you're making me want to shelve my existing 37 projects and go playing with radios. I was in my garage last week, sorting out boxes from old moves, and found that cute little spline-shaft knob from an ARC-5 of some sort that I used to have, I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. I have a dim recollection of building my own power supply for it out of an aluminum project box, since I didn't have the official power supply, and I had to drill out some banana jacks to fit the weird mica-insulated connector on the ARC-5 since the prongs were a bit thicker. But I don't think I ever got it actually working... John Wilson D Bit From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 5 21:55:26 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Altos 1000 (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help Yuval out? Reply-to: yuval@iapl.net.au ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:05:09 +1000 From: Yuval Avrahami - IAPL To: "'vcf@vintage.org'" Subject: Altos 1000 hello, I am desperately looking for a manual for the Altos 1000. Will you be able to refer me to a source where I can find the manual? thanks and regards, Yuval Avrahami, CCA Consultant INFOTECH Associates Pty Ltd (ANC 081 288 539) 3/7a, Gibbes Street, Chatswood NSW 2067 Sydney, Australia Phone +612 9882 1022, Facsimile +612 9882 1134 Mobile (0408) 691 566 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 5 22:02:15 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) In-Reply-To: <393C65DC.1A4EBE58@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping > table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word > table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 > available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for > boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would > be required. I don't think it is possible to fit HA! The Woz's boot code generates the requisite table on the fly! ;) (but it sounds like we're talking about a different kind of table :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 23:16:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Geez, now you're making me want to shelve my existing 37 projects and go > playing with radios. I was in my garage last week, sorting out boxes from > old moves, and found that cute little spline-shaft knob from an ARC-5 of some > sort that I used to have, #6743? Rare piece... > I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. If you find it, look at the snapslides. IBM made them. > I have a dim > recollection of building my own power supply for it out of an aluminum project > box, since I didn't have the official power supply, and I had to drill out some > banana jacks to fit the weird mica-insulated connector on the ARC-5 since the > prongs were a bit thicker. But I don't think I ever got it actually working... Real men use the original dynamotors. And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found with thier mouths filled with cement. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From richard at idcomm.com Mon Jun 5 23:43:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <002101bfcf71$c30c98e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It does better for the PCB if you use hot air, but it takes longer, and that's longer for the heat to get to the inards of the IC, which, if you're not inclined to save the PCB, is a good thing to avoid. BTW, with ceramic parts, the water thing I mentioned in an earlier transimission may not be as good an idea. I've torched many a plastic part successfully, however. The hot air approach left me trying to aid the process mechanically, resulting in a hellish task getting the j-leads properly aligned for future socketing. Gull-wing parts seem to fare somewhat better, though at .025" pin pitch it gets a mite difficult finding just the right amount of deflections so they don't have to be nursed when resoldering them. The manufacturers are probably not concerned about the 100 or so parts all of us together will cost them in sales in a year as much as they're concerned about the frustrated phone calls to their rep's or FAE's wondering why the parts don't work the way they should. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > > > > >Be aware that most manufacturers do not recomend reusing desoldered > > >surface-mount devices. That said, it seems to be possible to remove and > > > > Not exactly in their best interest to tell you go ahead and reuse the old > > parts. > > True, but I've never seen a similar comment in a databook or service > manual for pin-through-hole parts. But it's in just about every > databook/service manual/etc for SMD ones. > > > > > >The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is > > > > Doesn't anybody have a solder pot? Thats what pretty much all the scrappers > > I know use to remove parts. > > I must admit that I've never been in the position of caring more about > the component than the PCB. Every time I've wanted to remove an SMD part, > it's been essential to preserve the (probably irreplaceable) PCB. > > Many times I've managed to separate them without damaging either part > using the hot air tool, though. > > -tony > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 6 00:32:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:16:50AM -0400 References: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:16:50AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >#6743? Rare piece... Dunno the #, but I think I paid about $2-$3 to Fair Radio for the knob, in the early 80s, they had plenty of command set accessories. I wonder what they have left, they're certainly still in business, although their prices have gone up bigtime. >> I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. > >If you find it, look at the snapslides. IBM made them. Are those the nasty latches that hold the top on? Because ... >And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found with >thier mouths filled with cement. Then I guess I'm going to hell! The top was all screwed up on mine when I got it, the slides were mangled horribly, so I drilled them all out and put in pretty (I thought) brass thumbnuts instead, and drilled some vent holes while I was at it for some reason. In my defense, this was almost 20 years ago and they were hardly rare at the time! I think I paid $10 or less for the rig, which I found in the local want ads. On the plus side, I have a BC-223-AX transmitter which my grandfather supposedly schlepped back from somewhere (I don't buy the story, for his war I'd expect spark coils and coherers!!!), which appears to be brand new (still has the packing cardboard over the row of tubes), the only things that have happened to it are a bent connector, and the tuning card(s) seem to have walked off since I got it (hmm, I think I know which ex-roommate to suspect!!!). Don't know anything about it though, BC means signal corps right? It has the same annoying latches, only bigger and a lot harder to move... John Wilson D Bit From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 02:50:18 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' In-Reply-To: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> Message-ID: <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net> Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. The last I heard from him was on May 6th. We were discussing the purchase of a Vector Graphic system he owns which he posted as available on this list on April 26th. AFAIR, I haven't seen any posts here on the list from him in quite a while. I hope he hasn't joined the list of "silent keyboards". Bill -> Will 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' please contact me, this -> is about the paid but never received ebay item. -> -> Ed -> -- From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 6 09:25:49 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000606.092804.-268915.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:16:50 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli writes: > Real men use the original dynamotors. Here, here. Vibra-paks are for wussies :^). > And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found > with thier mouths filled with cement. It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. I do recall an article from '73 magazine in the early 50's, that told you how to chop up an ARC-5 transmitter to turn it into a VFO. IIRC, you chop the chassis off at the oscillator coils. . . . :^) Jeff Kaneko KH6JJN ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 6 10:48:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Dunno the #, but I think I paid about $2-$3 to Fair Radio for the knob, in > the early 80s, they had plenty of command set accessories. I wonder what > they have left, they're certainly still in business, although their prices > have gone up bigtime. Fair still has lots of things.Basically, 99 percent of what they have is not in the catalog, simply because of the small quantities - either because they never had many of part X to begin with, or they have reduced the inventory so much that it is not worth putting in the catalog. I frequent Fair (back in a few weeks!), and I am always finding weird individual things, and boxes of stuff that were mainstays of catalogs past. They do get computer stuff from tim to time, but it gets scrapped out fast, I think. Last time I was there, they had quite a few plotters (IBM and HP) and some HP 1000 (or 2000) minicomputers with odd labels, as they were part of some sort of HP oddball gizmo tester. Fair also has quite a few boards full of old transistors, for those of us that have minis from the 1960s. Now that I have a list of part numbers needed for the RCS/RI Packard Bell, I look for spares. > Are those the nasty latches that hold the top on? Because ... Yes. Nasty they are. > Then I guess I'm going to hell! No, just a nighttime visit from Vito and Tony. > On the plus side, I have a BC-223-AX transmitter which my grandfather > supposedly schlepped back from somewhere Probably Buffalo Radio Supply... > Don't know anything about it though, BC means signal corps right? Yes ("Basic Component"). BC-223-AX was part os SCR-245. A big 10 Watts of AM. It is a ground radio set, not aircraft. If you ever want to get rid of it, contact me. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 6 11:35:04 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > But by 1945 the cavity magnetron was documented to some extent (probably > > enough to make one if you understood Maxwell's Equations ;-)) in the ARRL > > handbook. FWIW, this book was published _before_ the war ended. > > That is because the Japanese and Germans had them - no longer a > secret. The Japanese actually were quite far advanced in the art of the > magnetron. Hi Actually the thing that made allied radar better than German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, only that it did make a large difference in how effective the radar was. Dwight From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 12:14:35 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Although some PDP11/10s seem to use the older system I'll describe below. My PDP-11/03 systems were apparently sold as some sort of laboratory equipment package by a company called Applied Color Systems (ACS); they were full of some sort of metallic-looking dust (I think they came from a cosmetics company before being donated to the the university where I got them, which didn't want the equipment), and came with a non-DEC power controller: an Applied Color Systems C1035 power controller which is of a rather simple design, although it contains parts from well-known manufacturers: AMF/Potter & Brumfield relay, Gould circuit breaker, Tignal Transformer Co. 12VAC transformer and sockets made to federal spec. WC-596, whatever that is; heavy solid steel case as well. I wonder if they're "badge engineered." There are six switched outlets, two unswitched outlets, a 20A circuit breaker, two 120VAC plastic three-pin (two of which are used) connectors for fans and one plastic three-pin connector (two of which are used) that when shorted completes the circuit for the relay coil and switches the 6 outlets on. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 6 12:57:30 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' In-Reply-To: <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net>; from whdawson@mlynk.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:50:18AM -0400 References: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <20000606125730.W25040@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:50:18AM -0400, Bill Dawson wrote: > Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and > his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. The last I heard > from him was on May 6th. We were discussing the purchase of a Vector > Graphic system he owns which he posted as available on this list on April > 26th. AFAIR, I haven't seen any posts here on the list from him in quite a > while. I hope he hasn't joined the list of "silent keyboards". > Bill Last I heard from him was May 2nd, he said that he and his wife were moving into a new home and he would contact me soon.. no replies to my mails to him since then.... I'm waiting on a PDP-11/35 from him for PDP11.ORG. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From technoid at cheta.net Tue Jun 6 12:57:16 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:26 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP Message-ID: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. Much of it was used by the Air Force for Missile testing etcetera. Here is a partial list: 1ea Harris 600 - fully outfitted mini. Model H600-2 Serial # 252 1ea Dec H7204 expansion chassis with several cards 16ea DEC Vax 4000 minis with 40mb ram, hard drives were pulled by Boeing and scrapped but CPB has lots of scsi hard disks. CPU is KA46. Model is V546K-AD Monitors for the DEC 4000 machines are VR-19HA (Sony GDM1961) 1ea DEC RL02 disk unit in rack 1ea DEC TA78-BF R-B1 Rack-mount tape unit in rack 3ea RA-81 disk units in 19" rack 3ea HP7920 hdd 1ea HP1000 mini with 7970 tape unit in rack 1ea hdd7906 (HP disk) in rack You can contact Ed Kirby of CPB at EDCPB@email.com Hope you found something you wanted! From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 6 13:22:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > Hi > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, I suspect and others may comment that like many technologies it was not a single point event like having the magnetron but also the perpiheral technologies like selsyn motors, and video(wideband) amplifier design skills to complete the package. Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge to do the needed signal processing and presentation took longer to develop. It's the subtleties of the reflected signal that has information of greater interest beyond simple range. Extracting that and presenting it in human useable form is far from trivial. Allison From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 6 12:26:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, > only that it did make a large difference in how effective > the radar was. There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is the one thing that won the war. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 13:28:28 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, that is the issue. We're considering what will be available in 50 > years time (or whatever). And most consumer-grade stuff simply won't be. > Yes, we could make stuff today that will last 50 years or more, but we > don't :-(. Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers above them who've convinced sheep-minded (no offense to sheep intended) consumers that they need a constant supply of things that are new and that the changes in products and capabilities have to be so fast-paced. Didn't cars reach optimum levels of comfort and luxury in the 1970's (ok, emissions were high, but think of all the pollution that results from manufacturing new cars); it's one thing to replace a car when it's failed structurally and repairing a badly rusted frame isn't an option... however, if heavier frames, etc. were used in the first place, that wouldn't be a problem. Now some builders are designing houses to be throw-away units, designed to last abotu 30 to 50 years... and with all that "smart-house" rubbish (who wants all that nonsense in a house?), I give some of them 10 years before people consider them obsolete or before everything stops working. Is super-high resolution for televisions that much of a necesity? I find a 20 year old Zenith System III still more than adequate... same for a 1973 color RCA, which presently needs a repair - the colors in the picture of the old RCA looked much better than those of the new TVs I see in stores! Is there any significant advantage of a new refridgerator to a 30 year old one? Etc... If the world would keep the population under control and people would stop multiplying like rabbits, and big-business would stop trying to convert so many 3rd world countries to nations which use more energy and more consumer products, if so many people didn't drive so far to work every day, and if so much energy wasn't wasted in the transportation and manufacture of new products, energy efficiency would not be of much importance, land "development" thats destroying the countryside and beautiful woodlands would stop, we wouldn't need to keep building new highways, etc. Of course, large highways also have military and police purposes as well, but that's not well publicized by our esteemed and intelligent (sarcasm intended) politicians. Is not the the cycle of constant growth, deemed necessary by greedy businesses and governments seeking more revenue, nothing more than insanity? Business expansion often requires more people who need more houses and cars, more highways, more land, who have more babies who will need more schools, then more jobs, then the cycle of lunacy continues until we're all living like cockroaches in overcrowded cities depending upon more man-made chemicals for food since there won't be enough farmland. ...and to think that many humans consider themselves intelligent than other creatures; strange. The solution seems so simple: make things that will last a long time and are repairable and teach consumers not to be influenced by marketing and that it's usually more sensible to get things repaired than to buy new things when they don't have a good reason to need something new (e.g. - they actually need something with different features (not just want to play with new featues as toys for their own entertainment) or what they have is irrepairable, etc.). Giving the above further thought, perhaps part of what's led to this problem of a "throw away" society has been the proliferation of con-artists in the repair field, from car mechanics (including the repair departments of car dealers) to TV repairmen to home repair contractors; far too many of them lie about things, overcharge consumers for unnecessary repairs, perform poor-quality work, etc... and they typically use their BBB (Better Business Bureau) memberships to lure gullible consumers into their traps. When one counters them on what they're doing wrong, they can have a tendency to turn rather nasty and damage one's property. Hence, the average consumers may prefer to just buy something new rather then be cheated multiple times by repair goons and be inconvenienced by a sometimes unreasonably long wait for the repair. Of course, if more people knew how to repair thigns themselves, or at least understood the concept of how things worked before having someone else repair them, the problem could be eliminated. Ok, simple solution, right? Not really, as most people who are intelligent don't want to get involved in politics, so we get a much higher percentage of imbecillic, and sometimes murderous, greedy bastards, higher than the level found in society as a whole, in elected offices, from local government officials to heads of state (e.g. - look at what's inhabiting the nuthouse^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HWhitehouse in Washington DC). > manuals. Because that's about the only thing that will last for 50 years. I'll bet that in 50 years, there will be significantly many more 70 to 100 year old pieces of electronic equipment in working, or repairable, condition than pieces of 50 year old equipment, and that the majority of 50 year old equipment still existing at that time will be, for the most part, useless, irrepairable, scrap. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 6 13:42:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: >I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. >Much of it was used by the Air Force for Missile testing etcetera. Here >is a partial list: > > >1ea Harris 600 - fully outfitted mini. Model H600-2 Serial # 252 Man am I glad I'm on the west coast, and a long way away from this puppy! How many Racks? Two? I'm not sure this is the same model I got my start on, but it's the first time I've seen an old Harris Mini mentioned. Anyone know what model Harris the "SNAP-2" systems were? BTW, the best version of Zork I've ever played was on a Harris. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 6 13:05:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 0 09:45:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/9983d881/attachment-0001.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jun 6 13:50:52 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> This morning I've been somewhat lucky... Walking into a Wertstoffhof (basicly a sub of the city waste department where people deposit big stuff for recycleing - Ethan may describe it), I peeked into the computer container to have a look at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and 20 Marks later it visited my car .... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 6 14:12:28 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADA7@TEGNTSERVER> > Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers I hate to be such a bleedin' mindless dittohead, but Mr. Davis, I agree with each and every point you made in this lengthy missive. Right on! -dq From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 14:51:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > This morning I've been somewhat lucky... Indeed! :-) > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... Is this a Commodore PET? Back around 1981 when I was beginning college, the computer lab (in the same building with the card punch machines and non-full-screen terminals for an IBM 4381) was a room full of Commodore PET computers and one TRS-80. Oddly, the only thing I noticed students doing with the PETs was: playing card games. They appeared to be interesting machines. Good luck with your new find! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jun 6 15:00:57 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: References: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: <393D7499.6388.12E900E@localhost> > > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... > Is this a Commodore PET? Back around 1981 when I was beginning > college, the computer lab (in the same building with the card punch > machines and non-full-screen terminals for an IBM 4381) was a room > full of Commodore PET computers and one TRS-80. Oddly, the only thing > I noticed students doing with the PETs was: playing card games. They > appeared to be interesting machines. Over here the stuff was named CBM 4032 (it's a big screen model, so it's for shure a late one ~1984), but as I had to learn, our friends across the pond name almost any Commo PET... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 15:08:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Compu-Das (Random Factors) S-100 A/D converter board Message-ID: While checking out the contents of some 8" floppies on my PDP-11/73, I spotted a couple of circuit boards sitting on top of my LA-120 (that reminds me, I've got to get another box of greenbar... hopefully Office Depot still stocks it; can you believe that I've had quite a few co-workers who had no idea what greenbar paper is?). One of these boards is an S-100 bus board, a Compu-Das model 696-33 made by Random Factors, Inc. of Durango, Colorado. The board is partially populated by chips (it came out of a repackaged Dynabyte 5200 system made by a company Computermotor Corp.), two of which are a Burr Brown ADC76KG A/D converter, and another Burr Brown chip: an SHC80KP (not sure what this one is), in addition to various TTL logic. What's interesting about this circuit board is that the chips are all socketed in little copper sockets made into the blue circuit board, and, apparently, to add D/A functionality to this board as well, one just plugs in some (or all?) of the missing chips. Does anyone know anything about this board? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 15:14:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4014 HV PSU Message-ID: A while back, when I turned on the power to my Tektronix 4014 terminal, nothing appeared on the screen, but I smelled an acrid odor. Upon closer examination, the smell came from the terminal's HV PSU board around the HV transformer for the CRT circuitry. Is this a common problem with these terminals? I'm hoping that the CRT hasn't shorted out, but I haven't had a chance to check that yet. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 6 16:02:02 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 6, 2000 01:14:35 pm" Message-ID: <200006062102.RAA07722@bg-tc-ppp555.monmouth.com> > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] Although some PDP11/10s seem to use the older system I'll describe below. > > My PDP-11/03 systems were apparently sold as some sort of laboratory > equipment package by a company called Applied Color Systems (ACS); > they were full of some sort of metallic-looking dust (I think they > came from a cosmetics company before being donated to the the > university where I got them, which didn't want the equipment), and > came with a non-DEC power controller: an Applied Color Systems C1035 > power controller which is of a rather simple design, although it > contains parts from well-known manufacturers: AMF/Potter & Brumfield > relay, Gould circuit breaker, Tignal Transformer Co. 12VAC transformer > and sockets made to federal spec. WC-596, whatever that is; heavy > solid steel case as well. I wonder if they're "badge engineered." > ACS was a company that (IIRC) used to make PDP11/03 and 11/23 based systems for paint color matching (I think). They were based near Princeton, NJ and their excess stuff often made it to the Trenton computer festival. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 6 15:49:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 6, 0 01:14:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/6ec1ad46/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 6 17:23:17 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> (message from technoid on Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:57:16 -0400) References: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000606222317.2213.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. Where is that? From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 18:10:56 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001bfd00c$7819b980$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> Tony said: -> For the time, I don't dispute that you can make mechanisms that -> will work correctly for many years out of modern plastics. I do doubt -> that's what happens in consumer devices. Because all the evidence I see -> (the units that pass over my workbench) says exactly the opposite. What can be done and what is being done are two different things. This is the crux of the matter. The plastics used in consumer devices are junk, and many times the implementation is done with little thought to durability, only cost. I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic manufacturing plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are excellent. However, there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic pellets and blend in additives to reduce cost. FWIW, the plastic used in automotive interior panels here in the US are almost 50% talc (ground soapstone). Why? Because talc is cheaper than plastic. Ever notice the white or lightly tinted stuff that comes off the interior plastics after a vehicle is a few years old? That is the talc. Notice how brittle the plastic becomes? Again, the talc. Bill From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 18:12:12 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADA7@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <002101bfd00c$a57115e0$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 3:12 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history -> -> -> > Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers -> -> I hate to be such a bleedin' mindless dittohead, but Mr. Davis, I -> agree with each and every point you made in this lengthy missive. -> -> Right on! Ditto ! Bill From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 6 19:16:18 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> >This is the crux of the matter. The plastics used in consumer devices are >junk, and many times the implementation is done with little thought to >durability, only cost. Sometimes plastics are used in very interesting ways. I remember one Sony Walkman-style tape transport from the 1980's, where there were *zero* metal screws in it. The entire assembly was snap-together plastic. Cheap? Absolutely! But design-wise, very interesting. Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 6 17:34:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <005601bfd01d$52e9db70$7464c0d0@ajp166> From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago >about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is >the one thing that won the war. At a different time the said same history channel said it was the VT fuse... I suspect a broader view would say many things did have significance to the outcome and duration of the war. No one development was alone in winning the war. Allison From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 6 20:11:31 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history References: <000d01bfcfe6$71ea4730$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00bd01bfd01d$5140e660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ..it was not a single point event like having the magnetron > but also the perpiheral technologies like selsyn motors, > and video(wideband) amplifier design skills to complete the > package.... > > Allison BTW I have some GE SelSyn motors in the garage that a good friend gave me. A few would be FSOT or even just go for postage to interested parties on the list. eMail if interested. John A. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 6 21:13:46 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: ne Message-ID: <20000607021346.59801.qmail@hotmail.com> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 6 21:14:46 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> I have online documentation for most things DEC *software* I have now, and most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have nearly zero documentation for the hardware... So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few results. I did find a really interesting page here: http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem to help me. Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my MicroVAX is: I finally got several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually *run*! ;-) However, I've tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* (oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there any DOS/Linux utils to read/write to a MV formatted floppy?) Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer upgrade which also includes PostScript. I'll stick my 'scope on the darned thing if I have to (which I will if I can't get any info on this thing by the weekend) but just a reference page with pinouts would be great! I'll even make a deal: I'll *make* a webpage with info on this thing (including pinouts) if someone has the tech references... Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my MicroVAX programming in BASIC soon... See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 6 21:21:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000607022109.83118.qmail@hotmail.com> I am putting out a call once again to anybody who has any DOS software (and I mean anything at all: Word processors, games, scientific programs, etc.) that will work on a Sharp PC-7000 lunchbox portable. I think it has 384K, or so, of memory, but programs that run in 256K should be enough for the job. I also runs DOS Ver. 3.2 I *do not* want to have to sell or scrap this somewhat rare (well, for a PC, anyway) machine because I have no software for it aside from the boot disk. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 6 20:26:00 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' References: <000701bfcfbd$0a226ca0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00cb01bfd01f$5743fbe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and > his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. > > Bill I bought from (them) 13&23-March and recieved both items on 4-May. There were some problems with a core memory board that was shipped in a (padded) envelope and arrived crushed. They replaced the whole item. General positive feeling though they ahould be encouraged to wrap things better. Note that the 5 1/2 week span is a long one. Communications were from one "Heather" B. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 6 21:47:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 06, 2000 10:14:46 PM Message-ID: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> > I have online documentation for most things DEC *software* I have now, and > most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have > nearly zero documentation for the hardware... > > So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find > documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few > results. I did find a really interesting page here: > > http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html > > but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem > to help me. To put it mildly the Compaqazation of the DEC Websites is more than a little irritating. They went from being fairly nice and easy to use, to a nightmare. Here is a trick. Go to the OpenVMS web page and figure out how to search the site, tell it you want to search all sites. Not sure that's the exact trick I use (it seems to change every time), but I have fairly good luck along those lines. > Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my MicroVAX is: I finally got > several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I Smile, and point your browser at the following: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html It has manuals for the latest version of BASIC, which will unfortunatly be newer than what you have. > even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually *run*! ;-) However, I've > tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run > the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" I just gave up in disgust and put the following in my login.com $ set term /dev=vt100/insert I'm sure someone has a better solution, but at any given time I might be accessing my cluster from a VT420, DECterm, NiftyTelnet on a Mac, or an xterm and Unix Telnet. You might want to skip the /insert, I like that behavior. > type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 > installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation > will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until > I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really > quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not sure the above trick will work for you. > (oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there any DOS/Linux utils to > read/write to a MV formatted floppy?) Maybe. ISTR, something about reading ODS-2 disks on Linux. Though I've no idea what format VMS uses for floppies, I've never bothered to mess with them. > Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece Which model is it? Is it a straight Model 300, or is it a 300L, 300X, or 300LX? If it's the 300LX, I might be able to help answer quesitons *IF* I can figure out where my manual is. > of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* > about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more > than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. > Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type > of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know > I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser > which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer > upgrade which also includes PostScript. How about a Ethernet-to-Localtalk converter with DCPSplus and Appletalk running on the OpenVMS box? That is how I print to my HP 5MP printer. In fact the OpenVMS system is acting as the print server for the OpenVMS Cluster, Unix Boxes, and Windows. The Mac's just print direct to the printer. ISTR that you've got a complete set of VAX CD's so this could be an option for you. > Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my MicroVAX programming in > BASIC soon... BTW, I've got some of the ancient DECUS BASIC programs on my FTP site that I've updated to work with OpenVMS. Right now I'm working at learning how to write DCL programs though. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 6 21:52:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:48:26AM -0400 References: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:48:26AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: [... Fair Radio Sales ...] >They do get computer stuff from tim to time, but it gets scrapped out >fast, I think. I'm still kicking myself for not buying some 4040 (or was it 4004) CPU chips, they had them for a couple of bucks, long ago... >BC-223-AX was part os SCR-245. A big 10 Watts of AM. It is a ground radio >set, not aircraft. Any idea if there are tuning units available to bring it into a ham band? The one that's in there (TU-17 I think???) is for 2-3 MHz, so it missed both of the obvious choices. Not like we have enough trees for a decent 80 m wire antenna, but some day we'll move... Speaking of crazy surplus places, does anyone know if John J. Meshna is still in business? They were in Lynn, MA. They used to be the same kind of deal, they had a catalog full of weird stuff, but then lots of *really* random crap in ones and twos that you could find by poking around in the clutter at their shop. John Wilson D Bit From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 6 22:17:16 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: Hi David! I had offered you some software but didn't have your address and the dog ate my e-mail . . . Please send me your address. Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd send me $3.20 for postage. Most of the programs I can send you have no documentation, not even a readme, so you're going to have to poke and hope . . . Stay in touch, Glen Goodwin ACME Enterprises 5511 W. Colonial Drive Orlando, FL 32808 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 6 22:22:21 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Oops Message-ID: <60.3d1c82c.266f19ed@aol.com> Sorry, meant to send that privately. Glen 0/0 From retro at retrobits.com Tue Jun 6 22:29:52 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New find References: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can bet I'll be going home with it :-) - Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... > > Gruss > H. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 6 22:02:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? > Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can > bet I'll be going home with it :-) Schools (grade through high) had a lot of these at one point or another. Try poking around the schools in your extended area and see if any leads turn up. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Jun 7 01:17:50 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mark, I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly short time after opening (couple days IIRC). That being said, you can pick up a small propane torch at most hardware stores. Any typical propane or MAPP type torch will do. Or you can use a dremel (or equivalent) to carve enough of the board away to unsolder one pad at a time (very slow, but the only way to remove plastic shrouded connectors without destroying them). Finally, I have access to a hot air desoldering station at work, and can desolder them for you. Contact me OL for this option. clint vaxman@uswest.net On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining > classic stuff, so... > > > Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board > undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into > another device. > > I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the > board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off > when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? > > It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. > Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on > the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too > long. > > In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. > > > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. > > Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? > > > > I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount > components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the > pads). > > > -- Mark > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 7 03:24:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: References: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <393E22C6.3770.3D6F043@localhost> Date sent: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:02:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New find Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > > Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? > > Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can > > bet I'll be going home with it :-) It's only a 12" (Big) Version (See http://www.i-m.de/home/compmuseum/commodore/4032.jpg ) > Schools (grade through high) had a lot of these at one point or another. > Try poking around the schools in your extended area and see if any leads > turn up. Gone since years over here Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Jun 7 08:36:09 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) References: Message-ID: <393E4FC9.4C09390F@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > >On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > > PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping > > table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word > > table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 > > available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for > > boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would > > be required. I don't think it is possible to fit > HA! The Woz's boot code generates the requisite table on the fly! ;) > (but it sounds like we're talking about a different kind of table :) Jerome Fine replies: In RT-11, the MSCP mapping table is used to specify which physical partition is to be used for each logical DUn: unit. The RT-11 command is: "SET DUn: PORT=p,UNIT=u,PART=m" where the PORT stands for which controller the drive is connected to, the UNIT is the physical unit number of the drive and the partition is the physical number of the 32 MByte portion of the drive. Since there is an almost infinite number of different possibilities if you consider all possible combinations for each entry (actually only 4 * 256 * 256 = 262144), it is somewhat difficult to have the mapping table be done on the fly. And even if only one controller is allowed, there are still 65536 possibilities for each entry. With an 8 entry mapping table, that is a lot of combinations. When 64 entries are used, the boot block gets sort of crowded. Whenever the SET command is used to change an entry in the primary table, the boot block entry must also be changed. Now, while a hardware boot from EPROM does not allow a non-zero partition (or at least the version DEC wrote never does), once RT-11 has been booted on any device, it becomes possible to use the RT-11 software to help the boot process along, while under a hardware boot, the allowable combinations are: "SET DUn: PORT=0,UNIT=n,PART=0" since the PDP-11 boot code does not know anything about partitions and the logical unit number must match the physical unit number for everything to work correctly. However, at present, the standard DEC distribution for MSCP software holds only an 8 entry mapping table in the boot block even though the primary mapping table can hold up to 64 entries. But, I suspect that it is entirely possible to extend the mapping table in the boot block to hold 64 entries and thereby allow RT-11 to perform a software boot of all 64 possible partitions specified in the primary mapping table. As pointed out in both of our notes, the challenge is to squeeze the needed code and data into a very limited number of bytes. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 10:54:06 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > However, I've >tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run >the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" >type of error. Well, there's always TECO... $ teco:==$sys$system:teco32.exe teco $ make:==$sys$system:teco32.exe make $ mung:==$sys$system:teco32.exe mung Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor anymore! See ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/ for documentation. Which reminds me. Several years ago I found a slick version of TECO called "Video TECO" which I used for some time under Ultrix. I've since lost the tarball and have not been able to find it on the net (I still have a printout of the manual somewhere). Anyone else use it and know where I can snag a copy? I don't know what line editor they're shipping with VMS these days (my spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray), but the best thing to do with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. >Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece >of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* >about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more >than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. I don't know much about them beyond them being the low-end TURBOchannel Alpha box. I mainly dealt with Flaming-Os and SandWipers, and never played with the 300. IIRC, the 300 has a 12.5MHz TURBOchannel. >Is the printer port serial or parallel, It'll be serial. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 10:53:03 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home Message-ID: This person has a DEC VAXstation II GPX that needs a new home. Please contact the original sender directly. They are located in Bellingham, WA. Phone: 360 733 8111 Reply-to: mbennett@aerotechsports.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:41:04 -0700 From: Mike Bennett To: vcf@vintage.org We have a DEC Vaxstation II GPX with a 19 inch VR290 DA monitor. It have Keyboard and mouse. We have since abondoned the unit for smaller faster systems. We are looking to sell or donate the the equipment to any intersested party. We would appreciate ant assistance you might be able to provide. Best regards, Mike Bennett Preident Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Jun 7 12:06:16 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000601bfd0a2$b205ff00$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Roger said: > However, I've tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I > haven't a clue how to run the line editor, and the screen > editor abends with a "terminal unknown" I assume you know the help set term tree of information. Also, I expect you tried vt100 first? VT100 worked with every SIO PeCee emulator I've heard of and most Unix telnets. John A. (away from Home) From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jun 7 12:32:01 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700 References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 > > installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation > > will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until > > I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really > > quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* > > Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not > using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not > sure the above trick will work for you. It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the hobbyist setup. 1) Install a hobbyist license for DWMOTIF 2) Increase GBLPAGES and GBLSECTIONS system parameters appropriately, if needed, and do $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN GETDATR REBOOT 3) Install MOTIF from the hobbyist CD with this command: $ PRODUCT INSTALL DWMOTIF /SOURCE=DKB400:[KITS.DWMOTIF_VAX125_KIT] 4) Reboot and you'll be brought to the DECwindows login screen. You can run a DECterm and get apropriate terminal behavior. (This is all assuming that you installed DECwindows support when you installed the VMS operating system, of course :) The other good thing to do at this point is to repeat the above procedure for DEC TCP/IP. Once you've installed a UCX license and installed the TCP/IP software, you can set it all up using the command $ @TCPIP$CONFIG.COM (I think... I'm not actually near my VAX right now) and be able to telnet into your VAX from another system. There's documentation a-plenty at: http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet. -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:36:29 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! References: <200006012307.QAA26576@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000607173134.2639.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm guessing it's a video I/O board for a Quadra 630ish machine. These were squat and narrow boxes, like 2 LC's stacked on top of one and other. You could drop in a MPEG decoder card, a ethernet or modem card, a TV Tuner card, or a Video capture card. These were super propriatary and the board won't work in any other machine. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! > > > > Hello all, > > > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > > 820-0510-A c1993 > > Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI > board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots. > > > > > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > > > 341S0021 > > c 1983-93 Apple > > ^ > > | > > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > > beginning to think it's not. > > I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones on > there. > > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other > boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a > 68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93 > http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris > or a Quadra. > > Zane > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:39:51 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home References: Message-ID: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:53 AM Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > This person has a DEC VAXstation II GPX that needs a new home. Please > contact the original sender directly. > > They are located in Bellingham, WA. Phone: 360 733 8111 > > Reply-to: mbennett@aerotechsports.com > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:41:04 -0700 > From: Mike Bennett > To: vcf@vintage.org > > We have a DEC Vaxstation II GPX with a 19 inch VR290 DA monitor. It > have Keyboard and mouse. We have since abondoned the unit for smaller > faster systems. We are looking to sell or donate the the equipment to any > intersested party. We would appreciate ant assistance you might be able to > provide. > > > Best regards, > > Mike Bennett > Preident > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 7 12:33:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 6, 0 08:16:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/341884a7/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 7 12:44:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Jun 7, 0 00:17:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1198 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/a8d78f6e/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 7 12:59:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist > distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the > procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the > hobbyist setup. The hobbiest is the same save for included app on the CDrom. Your fixes work but the need to do that was likely due to wrong installation options having been selected. I did it based on the 5.4 kits I knew from DEC and the DECwindows server and all installed as expected. FYI the most common problem is not having the licenses (all) at first install and having to go back and run LMF or VMSinstal to add. Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 7 13:01:55 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) References: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <393E8E13.DCF6C966@mainecoon.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) > The coolest thing I've > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > DUMPSTER. *sighs* -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 12:22:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? Fie! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 13:59:36 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB4@TEGNTSERVER> > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? > > Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is > in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) Speaking of which, I see no one bid on this one: : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay auction site. : : The URL to the item on E-Bay is: : : http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=333251248 : : The page includes photos of the unit, and if you are an E-bay : registered user, you can contact the seller to ask questions. FWIW, it's still in E-Bay's database, and the photos still download. -doug q From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 7 14:26:09 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needsa home) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB4@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <393EA1D1.5DFDB84D@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? > > > > Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is > > in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) > > Speaking of which, I see no one bid on this one: > > : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 > : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay auction site. Thing of beauty, isn't it? The only reason I didn't bid on it is because I have enough problems moving big stuff up and down the west coast; the thought of moving stuff east and west is just a little too much for me to cope with just now :-( -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 14:40:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <20000607194009.89778.qmail@hotmail.com> There's no bids on it because its not worth $300... they make no mention of having any software or docs, which would make it damn hard to use.. Not to mention that they don't say what the hell kind of computer it has an interface for on it... could be set up for a lot for a lot of different things.. and it's also a huge beast of a thing to ship. That things been on ebay like 3 or 4 times now Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 7 15:55:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:27 2005 Subject: OT: HUMOR: New Microsoft Messages Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000607155557.26b79d6a@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >New Microsoft error messages: > > In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft > error messages with their own Japanese haiku poetry, each only 17 > syllables, 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, five in > the third. > ------------------------ > Your file was so big. > It might be very useful. > But now it is gone. > ------------------------ > The Web site you seek > Can not be located but > Countless more exist. > ------------------------ > Chaos reigns within. > Reflect, repent, and reboot. > Order shall return. > ------------------------ > ABORTED effort: > Close all that you have worked on. > You ask far too much. > ------------------------ > Windows NT crashed. > I am the Blue Screen of Death. > No one hears your screams. > ------------------------ > Yesterday it worked. > Today it is not working. > Windows is like that. > ------------------------ > First snow, then silence. > This thousand dollar screen dies > So beautifully. > ------------------------ > With searching comes loss > And the presence of absence: > "My Novel" not found. > ------------------------ > The Tao that is seen > Is not the true Tao--until > You bring fresh toner. > ------------------------ > Stay the patient course. > Of little worth is your ire. > The network is down. > ------------------------ > A crash reduces > Your expensive computer > To a simple stone. > ------------------------ > Three things are certain: > Death, taxes, and lost data. > Guess which has occurred. > ------------------------ > You step in the stream, > But the water has moved on. > This page is not here. > ------------------------ > Out of memory. > We wish to hold the whole sky, > But we never will. > ------------------------ > Having been erased, > The document you're seeking > Must now be retyped. > ------------------------ > Serious error. > All shortcuts have disappeared. > Screen. Mind. Both are blank. > .... . ... .. . . > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\NewMicro.htm" > From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 14:14:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: VCF Link Contest Message-ID: I'm running a contest on the VCF website right now. If you add a link to your website pointing to the VCF and you garner the most referals between now and VCF 4.0, you'll win $50! Check out http://www.vintage.org/contests/link.html for complete details. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 15:21:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB8@TEGNTSERVER> > > : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 > > : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay > auction site. > > Thing of beauty, isn't it? The only reason I didn't bid on it is > because I have enough problems moving big stuff up and down the > west coast; the thought of moving stuff east and west is just > a little too much for me to cope with just now :-( It really is nice looking. And I understand; that Prime 2455 cost me a kilobuck to transport from Phoenix to the Louisville (KY) area, and that kilobuck really needed to go into fixing the Quattro. BTW, I answered my own question about the Xyplex- I kinda figured it was some kind of terminal server. How's that coming? -doug q From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Jun 7 15:44:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: ; from rivie@teraglobal.com on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600 References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: >Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor >anymore! Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs. >I don't know what line editor they're shipping with VMS these days (my >spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray), EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type CHANGE that is. I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: 1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you this IIRC). 2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. 3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) 4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! Are there more? >but the best thing to do >with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC >line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from >the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. Boy it's been a while, I remember thinking SOS was very much like the TRS-80 Model II EDTASM. Close enough! I feel sure I've asked this before and probably been answered but, if SOS is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-) John Wilson D Bit From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 15:44:02 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: HUMOR: New Microsoft Messages Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB9@TEGNTSERVER> > >New Microsoft error messages: > > In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft > > error messages with their own Japanese haiku poetry, each only 17 > > syllables, 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, five in > > the third. > > ------------------------ > > Your file was so big. > > It might be very useful. > > But now it is gone. Well, unlike the other stuff Intel and Microsoft stole from the Multics operating system, at least they got this one right. -dq From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 16:26:57 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: John Wilson wrote: >On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: > >Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor > >anymore! > >Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets >for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over >the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common >failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs. No. It's TECO INTERNATIONAL, "a group of companies with over 70 years of experience serving the worldwide primary glass manufacturing industry. The TECO (TM) group provides the industry with glass-melting furnaces, batch plants, and complete plants for the production of all types of glass..." It also says "...TECO (TM) [is a] registered tradmark of Toledo Engineering Co., Inc." >EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type CHANGE that is. >I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: > >1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing > like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you > this IIRC). >2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. >3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) >4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! I've never done any real work with modes 2 and 4. I'm only in mode 2 long enough to say CHANGE. And you've completely ignored the possibility of running mode 3 on a VT52... >I feel sure I've asked this before and probably been answered but, if SOS >is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-) I once heard rumors, but I've completely forgotten them so that now I can just spread rumors that there once were rumors about Stopgap. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jun 7 16:34:39 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: VCF Link Contest Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802885@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> I've got some automated test tools available that could make this a shoe in. Naw... I wouldn't do that. :-) Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 3:15 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: VCF Link Contest > > > > I'm running a contest on the VCF website right now. If you > add a link to > your website pointing to the VCF and you garner the most > referals between > now and VCF 4.0, you'll win $50! > > Check out http://www.vintage.org/contests/link.html for > complete details. > > Sellam International Man of > Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/0d4fb1c5/attachment-0001.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 7 19:05:24 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Need DEC MMJ stuffs Message-ID: <20000607190524.H29500@mrbill.net> Anybody know where I can get a quantity (<10) of DEC MMJ-to-MMJ cables (for hooking a VT320/420 to a MicroVAX / VAXstation) and some MMJ-to-DB25F / DB25M adapters? I tried contacting Tim Shoppa, but his zShops stuff wont let me order the adapters and he hasnt responded to multiple emails.... Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Jun 7 19:39:28 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Need DEC MMJ stuffs In-Reply-To: <20000607190524.H29500@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000607173506.01cc5510@208.226.86.10> How many and how long do they need to be? As I mentioned earlier I picked up one of the Ideal Industries crimpers at Fry's (part #30-497). Since that message I've actually built two cables, one 40' to run between my noisy VAX and the quiet upstairs where the VT340 is, and one "null modem" one to connect the console of a uV3100 to a VLC. Doing the DE9 or DB9 stuff is pretty easy if you make MMJ to RJ-12 cables. --Chuck (not a shop, but willing to help out if I can.) At 07:05 PM 6/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody know where I can get a quantity (<10) of >DEC MMJ-to-MMJ cables (for hooking a VT320/420 to a MicroVAX / >VAXstation) and some MMJ-to-DB25F / DB25M adapters? > >I tried contacting Tim Shoppa, but his zShops stuff wont let >me order the adapters and he hasnt responded to multiple emails.... From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 7 22:22:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? That's what I was wondering. A car being too small is no excuse. Superglue yourself to the 370s, and demand that the refuse-truck driver pick it (and you) up and take it (and you) to your house or you won't unglue yourself! Some things just call for drastic measures. ;-) ...and don't forget to offer to pay the driver a nice tip for his time. If that fails, just tell him his truck will go {k.*.a.*.b.*.0.*.0.*.m} if he doesn't cooperate, after all, you are on a mission of computer preservation, which, as we all know, may call for drastic measures (oh, yeah... don't worry, I'm sure the members of this group might consider helping with the legal fees if the wrong people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) Seriously, did you not contact someone about allowing you to have this hauled to your house, where you could have at least kept it outdoors in shipping pallets and covered with a tarp, as well as the wrap, until someone could have rescued it? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 00:32:06 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> References: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700 <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: If this is a dupe I appologize. My ISP's email freaked out big time just before I went into work, and it doesn't look like this made it out (if I read the bounce right). Figured I'd resend it since the list of links is useful. >It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist >distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the >procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the >hobbyist setup. Actually I suspect in his case he's installed the Commerical 7.1 kit, but the only real difference is the layout on the CD. However, you bring up an excellent point, I'd forgotten what a royal pain it is to get DECwindows running on a VAX as compared to on an Alpha. I've only installed DECwindows on one of my VAXen, and don't haven't even bothered with it on most of my Alpha's. On the Alpha you simply do the install, and then install and load the license PAKs. IIRC, I actually had to break out the manual to get it loaded on the VAX, how embarassing :^) >There's documentation a-plenty at: > > http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ > >It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet. > >-Seth Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much longer, as I've noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works. The frustrating thing is they've started putting up the doc's for individual software at different URL's, for example start here: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ (actually this looks like the second most useful besides the actual doc site, all kinds of good links). and find links to docs at: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/c/c_index.html http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ada/documentation.html http://www.digital.com/fortran/docs/ http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/pascal/documentation.html For a non-Y2k compliant web page see: :^) http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/cplus/cplus_index.html Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 05:29:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) In-Reply-To: <393E8E13.DCF6C966@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <393F91A5.4873.96FF7BB@localhost> > > The coolest thing I've > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > DUMPSTER. > *sighs* Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. That's the stuff i'm realy missing over here (BTW, I got my /390 compatible mini system two weeks ago - thanks to John Z.) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 8 07:44:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADC0@TEGNTSERVER> > EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type > CHANGE that is. I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: > > 1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing > like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you > this IIRC). > 2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. > 3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) > 4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! > > Are there more? > > >but the best thing to do > >with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC > >line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from > >the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. > > Boy it's been a while, I remember thinking SOS was very much > like the TRS-80 Model II EDTASM. Close enough! Other way around; SOS was first (on DEC-10). I got so accustomed to it that I copied Alan Miller's 8080 version into an extension of the old Processor Technology Software #1 (also known as SCS- Self Contained System), and later implemented it in PL/1 as part of a custom command environment for the primos operating system at revisions 17 and 18 (Prime later added its own command-line editing). I have the 8080 code for what I called 'SCSNEW' (it has a ram-based file system, cassette I/O, hooks into SOLOS for P-Tech SOL owners), code to drive an IMSAI UCRI tape board, debugger, and god-knows-what else I dumped into it and forgot about. The source was set up for Intel's Mac80 cross-assembler. You'd need to make a few changes to it for other assemblers. If anyone's interested in it, let me know... -doug q From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Jun 8 09:24:02 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Removing soldered components Message-ID: At my last job I had the luck to have access to a real/live solder sucker component remover. I found it on the top shelf of the electronics lab and fired it up. The rig was a small vacuum pump with a long hose attached to it, allowing the heated air to cool somewhat, with a glass tip. The glass tip was filled with some kind of mesh filter where the solder that was removed could cling. These little solder filters were replaceable. This glass tip was attached to a soldering iron. The vacuum pump was controlled by a foot switch. It took some trial and error to use the system. It takes some eye-hand coordination to operate this system. Don't try after 1-2 beers. I also need longer arms because my vision is extending. Works well for small number of components, not very production oriented. The whole system is probably still in the lab and hasn't been used since I left. "Solder sucker component remover" (TM) Mike "I'm waiting for all of my current memory to disappear and them I can live in the past." From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 09:40:24 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea Message-ID: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> This is what happens to you when you study biochemistry all week. I had a perverted idea of building a DOS emulator on a C64 -- i.e., have the C64 emulate the 8086 in software, either in real time or some sort of JIT compilation method. How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? Just a perverted idea, like I said. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "Garbage in -- gospel out" ------------------------------------------------- From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 09:35:51 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: [seth wrote:] > >It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist > >distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the > >procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the > >hobbyist setup. Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has been castrated by the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or TK70s? I don't need DECwindows, BTW. ...that is, if I can get my TK70 working. One of the TK70's lights blinks briefly when the system is powered on, then nothing, and I can't insert a tape into the drive. > Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much longer, as I've > noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works. How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have by buying DEC when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC. It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 10:15:30 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I >would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, >maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? You could execute from disk, requiring just enough memory to hold a disk sector. I.e., instead of reading memory by indexing into an array like: Instruction = Memory[ IP ]; do something like: Block = IP >> 7; /* 128-byte sector, anyone? */ Offset = IP & 0x7f; read( File, Block ); Instruction = Memory[ Offset ]; -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 10:20:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k or 33k alone. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 10:25:00 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> > I had a perverted idea of building a DOS emulator on a C64 -- i.e., have > the C64 emulate the 8086 in software, either in real time or some sort of > JIT compilation method. :)) > How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? If you'd like to boot DOS 2.11 (my recomendation) 128 K is sufficient for DOS and most tools. It should be possible to strip it down to run in as little as ~96 k, but below 64 K not even a complete boot is possible. DOS 1.X is able to run in 64 K, although it will be hard to find programs still able to run - after the introduction of DOS 2.0 everybody switched for the new file I/O (Unix style, without FCBs). CP/M 86 may be an alternativ way to go - way faster boot :) Also, based on my experiance of a 8080 emulator I did on the KIM in 1979, it will be hard to get a decent performance... I think the effective speed on a C64 will be something like or below a 0.1 MHz 8086 (my 8080 emulation archived an equivalent of a 0.10-0.25 MHz 8080), depending on the instruction mix of course Say, wouldn't a Software CP/M system more aprobiate for a first step ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 11:17:20 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Jun 8, 0 11:20:32 am" Message-ID: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? :: ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k ::or 33k alone. That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively instead. Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Jun 8 11:54:03 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91AC@MAIL10> Cameron: There are several sources for this info. Look for Ralf Brown. He made an "interrupt list" which is just a list of *all* interrupts. Mike Podanofsky wrote RxDOS, a DOS clone for the book "Dissecting DOS" from Addison-Wellsley. His company is API Software in New Hampshire. Try http://www.freedos.org/files/distributions/rxdos/ for a code distribution. The documentation and comments are excellent. -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:17 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Perverted DOS idea ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? :: ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k ::or 33k alone. That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively instead. Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 11:56:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <002001bfd00c$7819b980$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic manufacturing > plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are excellent. > However, > there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic pellets and blend > in > additives to reduce cost. This is a trick as old as the hills (and one of the reasons the old plastics fell apart quickly). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 11:58:34 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606.092804.-268915.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 > transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. > > TORCH! Unbeliever! Tune into the vintage military radio nets on 80m. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 12:14:00 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000608170903.59641.qmail@hotmail.com> Check out the freedos project, they've got src for their open source, GPL'd command.com available. http://www.freedos.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Perverted DOS idea > ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? > :: > ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k > ::or 33k alone. > > That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively > instead. > > Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking > of doing it. > > Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores > but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:11:09 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, > only that it did make a large difference in how effective > the radar was. Welll...I don't know about that. In the old days, most radarmen looked atthe old-fashioned A-scope just as much as the PPI-scope. Because the radar receivers were in general bad, noisy things, the gain tended to be set at a sweet spot, so there was a lot, but not too much, noise (false echos, sea return, general junk) on the PPI-scope. It really was just a broad overview, so the radarman could make fast choices as to what to examine out of the mess. The A-scope (or R-scope, if fancy) was then used to verify the echo, get the range, and interrogate with IFF. Azimuth was read from a compass repeater, generally built into the console. The Germans lost the radar war because they grew cocky. In 1940 they had the best, and thought that best would be good for many years. By 1942, they were proven wrong, and had to make up for a couple of years of stalled developement. They never had a prayer of catching up. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 12:12:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R. D. Davis wrote: >Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has been castrated by >the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the >thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as >much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a VAX/VMS was a name that *had* to go in the early 90's. Think about it, if you had your way we'd have VAX/VMS and AXP/VMS, which would create confusion, where there doesn't need to be any. Besides OpenVMS is as Open as just about any other OS out there. >complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or TK70s? I don't >need DECwindows, BTW. Best answer, get lucky and find a set. I wish the Hobbyist VAX V1 CD was still available for people, it had V5.5 - 6.1 on it. It also had all kinds of excellent software on it. Of course it was missing the layered products the V2 CD has. For the most part I agree on DECwindows, though I like having one system that can run it, and I normally just bring it up on my PowerMac using eXodus. There are a couple DECwindows apps I like to use. Still NiftyTelnet on my Mac can easily bring up a ton of terminal windows, so if that's all I need, that's the route I use. >How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have by buying DEC >when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those >poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware >that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC. >It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those >who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground. Compaq has done a lot of bad, but they've also done a lot of good. Sure it's wierd seeing a row of Compaq Rack's standing where some *old* DEC gear used to stand, but inside those racks is some beautiful OpenVMS hardware! To bad it belongs to another group and I can't touch it! Compaq might not be doing a lot to advertise OpenVMS, but they're apparently doing more than DEC had in recent years. Besides this new Hobbyist program that we all love, came about after Compaq got ahold of the company. Compaq does have a lot of junky toy PC's, but they've also got some pretty amazing x86 boxes. Of course they're running a horrible OS. What is disturbing about Compaq is that they continue to push Windows and for the most part ignore the OS's that they own. Of course it you like VMS and want to see it successful, how about doing something about it like writing some software, or telling people how great it is. It's in desparate need of apps, and most people don't even know it is still around. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 12:12:48 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores >but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. There's a file floating about the net somewhere called "the interrupt list". It's a comprehensive list of the ints used by PC software. I have a very old copy saved somewhere; let me know if you can't find it. Warning; it's huge. Barring that, "Undocumented DOS" and "Dissecting DOS" are the ones on my bookshelf. "Dissecting DOS" presents the source code for a DOS clone in C. I'm not seeing "Undocumented DOS" at fatbrain, though. "Dissecting DOS" is at http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=020162687X Looks like there are other interesting books as well, although I don't know that I would buy them without getting a chance to look at them first: "Caldera DR-DOS Complete" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=1889492035 includes a CD-ROM that I would assume probably includes the source code for the DR-DOS kernel. That's the sort of assumption I'd like to check out by looking at the book before I plunk down my hard-earned cash, though. On the other hand, I already have the source to the DR-DOS kernel lying about... Caldera _used_ to have almost all of the DR-DOS documentation online. I'm not finding much now (I'm sure glad I downloaded a copy of it while it was available; now if I can just figure out where I saved it...); there's a page at http://www.drdos.com/, but all it offers is a download of a DOSEMU disk image for use under Linux. "FreeDOS Kernel" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=0879304367 looks to be a competitor to "Dissecting DOS". "Uninterrupted Interrupts" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=0201409666 appears to be a hardcopy of the famed "interrupt list". -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 12:13:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals Message-ID: An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the old Macintoshes consume less electicity. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 12:13:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just tune around 3880khz(they move up or down a little maybe 3-4khz), every night there is at least a handful of old buzzards in there. Allison On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 > > transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. > > > > > > TORCH! > > Unbeliever! > > Tune into the vintage military radio nets on 80m. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:20:23 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge > to do the needed signal processing and presentation took > longer to develop. It's the subtleties of the reflected signal > that has information of greater interest beyond simple range. I must disagree, as the old A, B, and C-scopes (and derivatives) were present and used on nearly all radars until 1948 or so. The radarman did the signal processing in his head, mostly by looking at the (nearly*) raw video coming off the receiver. By the late 1950s, however, the signal processing did start to get complex (one of these days I have to rescue a vacuum tube based vector display from a guy. Hundreds of tubes.). *downconverted, of course, and maybe some anti-jam stuff thrown in (basically controlls to play with the AGC constants). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 8 12:20:22 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: H89 Computer For Sale - $10? References: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> Message-ID: <008001bfd16d$d4bd9d20$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> I'm selling my H89 computer. I built it but never used it much. Consequently, it is really in mint condition. I've placed it on EBay with a starting bid of $10. Here's a picture and more info if anyone is interested. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=352955051 The computer is located in Seattle. Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 12:24:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Old Macs = cheap terminals (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14655.54973.245101.329782@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, R. D. Davis wrote: > An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty > of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple > Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than > terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals > running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such > as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the > old Macintoshes consume less electicity. I second this. There are several VERY high-quality terminal emulators available for Macs. That same Mac can also sit on the ethernet for lan access as well (for the later NuBus machines, that is)... -Dave McGuire From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:26:13 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I'm still kicking myself for not buying some 4040 (or was it 4004) CPU > chips, they had them for a couple of bucks, long ago... Yes, but now that everyone and his brother has them on Ebay, the value has dropped. Of course I have spend time looking for the boards as well, but I have not found them. And every time I am there, Phil shows me a new room that I have never been in (its a trip)! > Any idea if there are tuning units available to bring it into a ham band? > The one that's in there (TU-17 I think???) is for 2-3 MHz, so it missed > both of the obvious choices. TU-18-A covers the 80m band. Send your shipping address. And promise me you will never modify it or the transmitter. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 8 12:56:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: ClassicHam (was Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608105246.00d3b730@208.226.86.10> I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge represented on this group, but would like to respectfully suggest that once a conversation is off topic for both the group *and* the subject line under which it was started, that should be a very loud signal to the participants to take it elsewhere. At least change the subject line folks! Thanks, --Chuck At 01:20 PM 6/8/00 -0400, it was written: > > Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge > >I must disagree, as the old A, B, and C-scopes (and derivatives) were >present and used on nearly all radars until 1948 or so. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 8 12:47:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 7, 0 11:22:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000608/30e5e0aa/attachment-0001.ksh From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 13:03:44 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals References: Message-ID: <20000608175846.90860.qmail@hotmail.com> You can get Mac SE's used for under $10 usually. These can have ethernet cards installed, makes a great terminal with datacomet or bettertelnet. I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals > > An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty > of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple > Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than > terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals > running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such > as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the > old Macintoshes consume less electicity. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:26:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200 References: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> Message-ID: <20000608142648.A6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >If you'd like to boot DOS 2.11 (my recomendation) 128 K is sufficient >for DOS and most tools. It should be possible to strip it down to run >in as little as ~96 k, but below 64 K not even a complete boot is possible. > >DOS 1.X is able to run in 64 K, although it will be hard to find programs >still able to run - after the introduction of DOS 2.0 everybody switched >for the new file I/O (Unix style, without FCBs). FWIW, PC-DOS V2.0 runs OK in 64 KB. You can't fit much else in there with it, but it does come up OK. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:31:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu>; from ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:20AM -0700 References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000608143105.B6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:20AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores >but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list (which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation is accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll probably want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech Ref manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're still in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute some native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 13:33:00 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: R. D. Davis write: >An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty >of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple >Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than >terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals >running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such >as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the >old Macintoshes consume less electicity. I wanted to do this bad for my Linux PC back in the '92-93 timeframe, before Linux was really able to run X-Windows. I wanted one because it was so nice and small, but in those days they were still out of my price range (especially since at that time I was a PC user). These days I use VT420's whenever possible since I can plug one terminal into two computers without any extra hardware. OTOH, I regularly use my G4 PowerMac as a Terminal :^) It makes a great X-Terminal using eXodus, using 100Mbit switched ethernet X-Windows/DECwindows is nice and fast :^) Plus NiftyTelnet is one of my favorite terminal emulators. I also like monitors with dual inputs, and Digital KVM switches :^) Still if I didn't have a good supply of DEC terminals I'd probably be using Compact Mac's. Another good solution for the terminally challenged is *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a terminal when nothing else is handy, and I'm currently looking for a more modern laptop with colour to use as an X-terminal. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:41:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:26:13PM -0400 References: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000608144159.C6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:26:13PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Of course I have spend time looking for the boards as well, but I have >not found them. And every time I am there, Phil shows me a new room that >I have never been in (its a trip)! Too bad it's not really on the way anywhere, I'd love to drop on them some time but it's not worth ~14 hours each way! Ohio sure has a lot of wide open spaces... >TU-18-A covers the 80m band. Send your shipping address. And promise me you >will never modify it or the transmitter. Wow! Well let me know how much you want for it, but before I commit to the deal, do you know where I can find documentation on the BC-223? I have nothing at all on it, so I don't know what it takes to feed one, and I don't want to swear I'll never modify anything until I know how dependent it is on external stuff that I'll never have (there are a couple of big gnarly multi-pin connectors on the side so I'm wondering if there's a control box or what -- even though there seem to be enough switches and knobs for everything I can think of already on the front panel). Boy I really wish I hadn't forgotten my Cantenna at an old apartment, well if it's only 10 W then I should be able to solder up a bunch of 2W carbon comp resistors and that will be good enough to play with it before sicking it on the airwaves. I can only imagine what the output impedance wants to be, with the big ceramic separate outputs. Somewhere I still have most of a roll of honest-to-god ladderline, but I don't know if a full-wave loop would fit in my yard (guessing that the impedance is a bunch higher than 50 ohms). Thanks!!! John Wilson KC1P/2 D Bit From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 13:38:59 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Legal help for computer rescuers] > > people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you > > a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) > > Is that what's known as a 'file transfer protocol'? So, that's what FTP originally meant! :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 13:45:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: <20000608175846.90860.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Message-ID: >I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss >linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) Hey! I like that idea! I've got a SE/30 with a SCSI-Ethernet adapter, I'd not thought of turning it into a Sniffer, and I've been wanting to build one for when I want to see what's going on with my network. I'd never even thought of using a Mac for that, I'd been planning on getting an older PC laptop for that. Actually if I were to use a Mac, I'd probably go with my PowerBook 540c that I don't use much any more. GACK!!!! $995.00 Suggested Retail price?!?!? I don't suppose you know of any *affordable* sniffer's for the Mac? It looks like a beauty, and even does DECnet (so it does everything I'd need from the looks of it), but that's way to much for hobbyist use. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 14:15:43 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals References: Message-ID: <20000608191057.63093.qmail@hotmail.com> Try to snag an older version. I picked up Etherpeek 3.0 for $50 from a used software store on-line. Works fine, or you can do linux/MacBSD and get a sniffer for free. No pretty X interface though. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals > >I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss > >linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) > > Hey! I like that idea! I've got a SE/30 with a SCSI-Ethernet adapter, I'd > not thought of turning it into a Sniffer, and I've been wanting to build > one for when I want to see what's going on with my network. I'd never even > thought of using a Mac for that, I'd been planning on getting an older PC > laptop for that. Actually if I were to use a Mac, I'd probably go with my > PowerBook 540c that I don't use much any more. > > > GACK!!!! $995.00 Suggested Retail price?!?!? I don't suppose you know of > any *affordable* sniffer's for the Mac? It looks like a beauty, and even > does DECnet (so it does everything I'd need from the looks of it), but > that's way to much for hobbyist use. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 14:19:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals (Jason McBrien) References: <20000608191057.63093.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14655.61873.696148.784695@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, Jason McBrien wrote: > Try to snag an older version. I picked up Etherpeek 3.0 for $50 from a used > software store on-line. Works fine, or you can do linux/MacBSD and get a > sniffer for free. No pretty X interface though. I seem to remember having seen a gorgeous GUI-fied Unix packet sniffer package from Curtin University in Australia. PacketMan or something? -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 14:23:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000608144159.C6268@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Boy I really wish I hadn't forgotten my Cantenna at an old apartment, well > if it's only 10 W then I should be able to solder up a bunch of 2W carbon > comp resistors and that will be good enough to play with it before sicking That would work, use series parallel combo of 100ohm 2W (8 of them) to get 50, put them in a paint can of mineral oil and it will take at least 30-40W and work to 30+mhz if assembled using or copper strips. > be, with the big ceramic separate outputs. Somewhere I still have most of > a roll of honest-to-god ladderline, but I don't know if a full-wave loop > would fit in my yard (guessing that the impedance is a bunch higher than > 50 ohms). Most common mods are to go from balanced to coax. Ladder line feeding a 60ft end fed zepp or marconi will do well. At that power level you have to make sure the modulation is good and very clean or you loose inteligbility. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 14:53:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <20000608195359.2203.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Another good solution for the terminally challenged is > *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only > real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a > terminal when nothing else is handy... I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the Kermit-ly challenged, modern versions contain an IP stack; just add packet driver; that's how my Commodore Colt is on my network). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 14:55:27 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Z-Fest In-Reply-To: <20000608142648.A6268@dbit.dbit.com> References: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200 Message-ID: <3940164F.14505.B762FAC@localhost> Since it's only one month away, a small reminder for the anual Z-Fest 2000 on Saturday, Sunday 8th and 9th of July in Gueglingen (near Heilbronn, Germany). Two days of fun, among die hard CP/M nerds. From old 8-Bit stuff to brand new _superpowered_ Z280 systems in a cosy seting. http://www.zfest.de/ Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Jun 8 14:53:10 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfd183$2cab2d80$36e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic -> manufacturing -> > plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are -> excellent. -> > However, -> > there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic -> pellets and blend -> > in -> > additives to reduce cost. -> -> This is a trick as old as the hills (and one of the reasons the old -> plastics fell apart quickly). And the new plastics will also, since this practice is still widely in use today. Even the dyes used to color plastics degrade its performance over time. Bill From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 15:25:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:28 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <20000608143105.B6268@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Jun 8, 0 02:31:05 pm" Message-ID: <200006082025.NAA08734@oa.ptloma.edu> ::>Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores ::>but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. :: ::People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list ::(which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), ::but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation is ::accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll probably ::want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech Ref ::manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at ::very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're still ::in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute some ::native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. Well, it would be a sullied implementation. I'm thinking of having a native 6502 IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (and probably COMMAND.COM), so the INTs would need to be simulated by that: hence the list :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge ------- From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 15:30:20 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home References: Message-ID: <20000608202523.80042.qmail@hotmail.com> I. It would not have fit in my garage much less my house. II. My dedicated 220V Line is being taxed enough as it is. III. I was alone and far far from home. IV. As I approached the dumpster the manager of the property disposition started chasing me with a broom. V. I've already rescued a Data General Nova 3 which is much more fascinating to play with. BLINKENLIGHTS!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Sellam Ismail > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > > > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > > > WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? > > That's what I was wondering. A car being too small is no excuse. > Superglue yourself to the 370s, and demand that the refuse-truck > driver pick it (and you) up and take it (and you) to your house or you > won't unglue yourself! Some things just call for drastic > measures. ;-) ...and don't forget to offer to pay the driver a nice > tip for his time. If that fails, just tell him his truck will go > {k.*.a.*.b.*.0.*.0.*.m} if he doesn't cooperate, after all, you are on > a mission of computer preservation, which, as we all know, may call > for drastic measures (oh, yeah... don't worry, I'm sure the members of > this group might consider helping with the legal fees if the wrong > people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you > a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) > > Seriously, did you not contact someone about allowing you to have this > hauled to your house, where you could have at least kept it outdoors > in shipping pallets and covered with a tarp, as well as the wrap, > until someone could have rescued it? > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 16:07:05 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000608202523.80042.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > I. It would not have fit in my garage much less my house. No problem. Put in in the front or back yard in a make-shift shelter and just use it in the winter, attaching ducts and fans to your house to save on your heating bill (if you heat via natural gas, oil, coal or wood). :-) > II. My dedicated 220V Line is being taxed enough as it is. No problem. A call yo your utility company can get you more power. :-) > III. I was alone and far far from home. No problem. That's what office movers are for. Better yet, pretend to be a property owner and call a refuse company to "empty" the dumpster... that is, into a waiting truck a few miles away. > IV. As I approached the dumpster the manager of the property disposition > started chasing me with a broom. No problem. Just use an RL02 cartridge as a shield. :-) ..or grab the broom away from him and pretend you're insane, while offering him a bribe. > V. I've already rescued a Data General Nova 3 which is much more fascinating > to play with. BLINKENLIGHTS!!! Ok, I can't argue with that. ...Although you can add blinkenlights to the IBM system, as there's plenty of sheet metal there to drill holes for light sockets into. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Thu Jun 8 16:44:19 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel up to the PC running Sim. Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of getting something like this to work? -- Tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 8 16:50:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> from "Eros, Anthony" at Jun 8, 0 04:44:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000608/5eaffd2b/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 17:22:56 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <004101bfd198$18f1d7c0$0400c0a8@winbook> This may be workable if the PDP-11 simulator runs under DOS or LINUX. If it runs under Windows, the OS will interfere with your attempts to talk directly to I/O. If you have a version for LINUX, you'll need one of the EPP port drivers, but that's what I'd recommend you attempt first. EPP uses the parallel printer port to mux and steer data into your target application. You must understand what it does, and how slowly, ( it's more or less rate-limited to about a 4 MB/sec transfer rate, but that's an asymptote.) If you find a way to make it work, and it works quite straightforwardly under DOS, then you write addresses and commands to one location mapped into the parallel data port, 0x37C, and data to 0x37C. The hardware will generate strobes to facilitate such transfers, so you don't have to wiggle the strobes with software. It has a Data Strobe and an Address strobe, provides for an interrupt if you want one, and various other features, none of which require you use them. Though this form of bus-isolated I/O is very tempting, it's a good idea to keep in mind that the IC in which the printer port lives is normally a high-pin-count device soldered to the motherboard. If you break it, you have to use an off-motherboard circuit to provide the printer port, as well as whatever other peripherals are lost along with it. That, these days, can include lots of functions you'd rather not lose. It's a good idea to isolate your circuitry from the motherboard with series resistors, or even picofuses, and provide adequate buffering to make it safe to use. If you know enough about the PC and the way the simulator runs on it, you need merely drive your indicators in a way that reflects the status of the simulated PDP-n, hving patched your code into the simulator's primary dispatch loop. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eros, Anthony To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:44 PM Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > up to the PC running Sim. > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > getting something like this to work? > > -- Tony > From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 17:31:07 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Perverted Mac-OS idea (was: Perverted DOS idea) Message-ID: <20000608223108.87999.qmail@hotmail.com> >::>Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of >bookstores >::>but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. >:: >::People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list >::(which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), >::but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation >is >::accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll >probably >::want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech >Ref >::manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at >::very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're >still >::in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute >some >::native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. > >Well, it would be a sullied implementation. I'm thinking of having a native >6502 IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (and probably COMMAND.COM), so the INTs would >need >to be simulated by that: hence the list :-) > >-- >----------------------------- personal page: >http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu >-- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge >------- No way! You wouldn't want to ruin a Commodore 64 with that crap! Hell, while you guys are at it, why don't you try to port Mac-OS, or worse yet, MS Windows, to the Commodore 64. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 17:31:36 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <004701bfd199$4f4e5b80$0400c0a8@winbook> There are plug-in boards that provide an extra SPP/EPP/ECP port, which is safer than simply using the motherboard-resident one. That would be less trouble if you were to break it than would be the one on the motherboard. The EPP port is more desirable, IMHO, simply because it isolates your "hobby-project" from the inards of the computer. It also provides a handy connector, and a simple protocol by which to provide yourself with up to 256 I/O ports in either direction, without having to open the box except to plug in the parallel port card. If one happened to come with a DLL with which you can write WINDOWS code for your port, so much the better! One rather important aspect, of course, is that the printer port can really drive the properly terminated cable, while a "normal" MOS LSI for parallel I/O, e.g. 8255, 6821, etc, can't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > getting something like this to work? > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. > > The hardware shouldn't be too bad. The 11/45 frontpanel board is just the > lights, switches, and lamp drivers IIRC. So you'd need to provide : > > Power supplies (+5V for the logic and +15V for the lamps IIRC). > Input ports on the PC to take inputs from the switches > Output ports on the PC to drive the lamps. > > You could either build your own I/O port cards using (say) the 8255 > chip, or buy them ready made ($$$ since they don't sell in the quantities > of most PC bits), or with a bit (OK, a lot) of logic, hang the whole > thing off a printer port. > > Then you have to modify the simulator to talk to these I/O ports. Just a > Simple Matter of Programming (tm). Eeek! > > -tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 16:49:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <002001bfd193$79422940$7364c0d0@ajp166> >I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local >box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with >Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no >flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. Allison From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 17:45:33 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smarty.smart.net Thu Jun 8 17:50:14 2000 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200006082250.SAA23491@smarty.smart.net> I found this on comp.sys.3b1 in case anyone can save it: ------- start of forwarded message ------- Path: news.smart.net!outfeed2.news.cais.net!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news4.mco.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> From: Average Torvaldsian Organization: Happy enough without any, thanks for asking... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.37 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.att,comp.sys.3b1 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.231.1 X-Trace: news4.mco 960142535 216.78.231.1 (Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT Xref: news.smart.net comp.sys.att:2874 comp.sys.3b1:1794 I have a 3B2/600 to give to whomever wants it. It belonged to the local AT&T group here in Orlando FL (as an asset tag), and is apparently the only survivor of three that fed Usenet into the Central Florida area. It works fine, boots without problem, and includes a console terminal, keyboard, user books, and a number of tapes. One of those is said to be a bootable tape with a complete backup. Sixteen megs ram, two 120 meg SCSI drives, 5.25" floppy and tape drives. It does not have an net card, though: that died and was removed before I got it, nor does it have any disks. I don't have any time to devote to the poor thing, it looks all forlorn sitting in the corner, and I'd really like to see it go to someone who has the time to get the thing running. Obviously, due to the size and weight, I can not ship it, but it is here to be picked up in east Orange County, Fla, pretty much anytime. If you are close by in a surrounding county, I would be willing to bring it to you. If interested, or and we'll arrange pickup/drop off. Max. (ps: during the last week of June and first week of July, I will be in the Davenport (Scott County) area of Iowa, and if someone in the surrounding area is interested in it, let me know, as I'd also be willing to bring it for delivery.) -- All parts should go together without forcing... By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925. ------- end of forwarded message ------- -- -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 8 17:55:31 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> How many people on this list have fantasized for even a moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all the lights & switches accurate and active? P.S. a PIC is a pretty good way to get 32-1 signals in and out over an SIO line. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 8 18:17:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10> >Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any >computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and >switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack >panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of >the PDP-11s of incomplete design? Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. The address lines are present, just wire those up to lights. Various signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build the switch register to deposit directly into memory. Decoding an address for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? Displaying registers would be difficult to do "on the fly" however you could probably force the CPU to execute a MOV Rx, #DISPLY fairly easily. On a tangentially related subject there was a recent series of articles in Circuit Cellar Ink on building your own CPU in an FPGA (see www.fpgacpu.org) and it included a VGA interface (which they displayed characters on) clearly however if you were using it as God intended you would create a virtual front panel :-) --Chuck From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Jun 8 18:21:18 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I haven't had -that- particular fantasy, but another one... ... creating copies of certain "classic" machines. If you were able to buy, say, an original Nova in a box that for all the detail you wanted was the same as the original, and inside had the same chips on the same size PC board, would that be cool? Sure, you're have to use materials you could get today to do it, but accurately done, it might be interesting. I'm -not- saying building up clones of certain rare old computers and trying to pass them off as originals, but rather, trying to make clones that are undistinguishable from the original. Maybe it's nuts, but, as Tony recently said, we're all nuts on this list! ;-) -Mike p.s. To those who posted pointers to the "6-chip" Woz diskette interface, thanks! Nice stuff. On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > P.S. a PIC is a pretty good way to get 32-1 signals in and > out over an SIO line. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 18:34:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <20000608233422.605.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and > have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard jack, but there isn't one on an XT laptop; I was just going to wire one in). There are parameters you can tell the PE3 to use when connecting the driver, but I'd have to look them up; I haven't actually used a parallel port adapter since I was at McMurdo. > What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, > linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. AFAIK, there will never be any newer drivers because Xircom isn't forthcoming with their internals details. I tried for a long time to get info out of them so I could adapt a PE3 to the Amiga, but they formally rejected my written propsal because they didn't want to be in anything but the DOS market. Since then, they've been more flexible, so the newer PCMCIA Xircom NICs work, but I have this CE-10BT that only works under older stuff (fortunately, I do happen to have a PCMCIA NIC or two that _is_ supported under Linux; my CE3B-100BTX the only thing I have for the laptop that will go 100Mbps and isn't Cardbus). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 8 18:39:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> (John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com) References: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000608233931.29538.qmail@brouhaha.com> > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? And active? How would they be active? I don't even know what most of them do, but they generally control hardware that isn't going to be useful except in an actual Apollo mission or equivalent. Certainly I have no reason to want to be able to control a secondary coolant loop pump or SPS gimbal motors, for instance. As it happens, I have an "Apollo 13 Controls and Displays" poster less then three feet from where I'm sitting. See http://www.papertrainer.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 19:27:01 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:06:42 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: DEC Hinote supervisor password Message-ID: <200006090106.VAA26433@world.std.com> I know this is on the more contemporary side of the 10 year rule, but could someone contact me off-list who knows how to reset or override the supervisor password on a DEC Hinote (not ultra, not 2000)? Thanks in advance... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 20:16:00 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (Richard Erlacher) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> PC replaces Cray...film at 11. Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of computing. -Dave McGuire On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R. D. Davis > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to > do > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front > panel > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance > of > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you > ask. > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > -- > > R. D. Davis > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > 410-744-4900 > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 20:16:04 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize about having my money wasted. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Jun 8 20:20:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Blinkenlights and Simulation In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> from "Eros, Anthony" at "Jun 8, 2000 04:44:19 pm" Message-ID: <200006090120.VAA12711@bg-tc-ppp745.monmouth.com> > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > up to the PC running Sim. > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > getting something like this to work? > > -- Tony > > What I'd love to see is the 11/45 front panel added to the Sim under X11 so it would have an emulated panel like the Mac and Doug Jones' PDP8e emulator. Any Unix/C/X11 programmers out there? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 20:30:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? Whether I've "worked" with computers as a hobby at home, for clients, or for employers, I've always felt as though they were toys to play with and to experiment with. Of course, I did make sure that my employers didn't see me in the computer rooms with screwdrivers, etc. as I took things apart to examine them, although I did get in big trouble when a former supervisor, who told me that there were no programming languages installed on the company's VAX, discovered a bunch of assembly code in with my files... I sure proved her wrong! :-) ...of course I hacked a game of adventure in DCL there as well, I showed here again that there was indeed a programming language on the VAX, and that wasn't exactly appreciated when discovered either, oddly. Ah well... some employers can be rather strange. I don't have to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 8 20:51:11 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400 References: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize > about having my money wasted. Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. -Seth From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 20:50:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > computing. > > -Dave McGuire > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: R. D. Davis > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to > > do > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front > > panel > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance > > of > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you > > ask. > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > -- > > > R. D. Davis > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 20:54:48 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <001f01bfd1b5$b355e5a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Unfortunately, though the behemoths of yesteryear still do what was then asked of them, what's evolved more than anything else is what people (oh, yes ... the people have changed a mite, too) ask of them. Since they CAN play this week's fantasy game, they do, and since they can show detailed pictures of the smut, gore, or whatever else someone's into, they do that, too. The CRAY and VAX machines didn't do that as well. That's not to say they couldn't, but, since nobody would pay what they'd have had to, they didn't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, > that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that > most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. > > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? > Whether I've "worked" with computers as a hobby at home, for clients, > or for employers, I've always felt as though they were toys to play > with and to experiment with. Of course, I did make sure that my > employers didn't see me in the computer rooms with screwdrivers, > etc. as I took things apart to examine them, although I did get in big > trouble when a former supervisor, who told me that there were no > programming languages installed on the company's VAX, discovered a > bunch of assembly code in with my files... I sure proved her wrong! > :-) ...of course I hacked a game of adventure in DCL there as well, I > showed here again that there was indeed a programming language on the > VAX, and that wasn't exactly appreciated when discovered either, > oddly. Ah well... some employers can be rather strange. I don't have > to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I > found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard > shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the > building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next > break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to > go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) > > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 20:31:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, sjm wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize > > about having my money wasted. > > Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. The Sethinator! Touche! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:51:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <007f01bfd1b5$f98cc020$7364c0d0@ajp166> >Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. > >The address lines are present, just wire those up to lights. Various Nope! they are address/data multiplexed... you have to latch the address and data to display it. >signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build nope, it will bus timout on you. >the switch register to deposit directly into memory. Decoding an address >for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as Yes it would. >well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? Displaying >registers would be difficult to do "on the fly" however you could probably >force the CPU to execute a MOV Rx, #DISPLY fairly easily. Software loop on an interrupt would write to static latches to do that. >Circuit Cellar Ink on building your own CPU in an FPGA (see >www.fpgacpu.org) and it included a VGA interface (which they displayed >characters on) clearly however if you were using it as God intended you >would create a virtual front panel :-) interesting. The reason for frontpannels in the first place was more diagnostic in nature and to start them up. When ram and rom got cheaper along with mass storage the whole point of the frontpannel becomes passe`. My 8f would be hard to use without it as it has no rom and it's a maintenance tool. From the other side, it would be pointless on the 11/73 as the rom monitor is much more useful than any front pannel. The ALTAIR was the machine that made having a frontpannel when rom would do clear for me. It was a lot of hardware to do what a simple rom card could do better. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:41:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <007e01bfd1b5$f789eb40$7364c0d0@ajp166> >At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- >directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer >models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 Ah ha, I wondered. >can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard >jack, but there isn't one on an XT laptop; I was just going to wire >one in). There are parameters you can tell the PE3 to use when connecting I know, remember I said I have a few. I'll have to try one on the XT laptop. Allison From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 21:05:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Australian Totalisator Message-ID: Here is a great website that documents a until now unknown (to me at least) tabulating system invented in Australia in around 1913 used at horse tracks. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~bconlon/ It is a pretty amazing history. It extends into the digital computer age and goes into some detail about the use of PDP 11's which eventually replaced the mechanical and then electromechanical design. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 22:15:07 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Fixin' der Tandy 2 floppydrivenspiegelthingengruppebochs Message-ID: <200006090315.UAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> Good news und bat news. I got a nice Tandy 200 package today, unit, power supplies, manuals and even some Club 100 disks in the original hard case. Very nice and the machine, after a little of fiddling and a cold start, is running well. That's the good news. The bad news, alas, is the 3.5" RS-232 floppy that came with it. (Yes, RS-232 floppy drive; hopefully someone has seen one of these.) It will not power up on either the power supply (original power supply, btw, which works with the M200 just fine), or new batteries. All it does is flash its low battery light briefly, spin for about a second, and shut off. I took a look at the board but couldn't see anything physically shot. Anyone have experience with these drives? What are my options? Part of getting this thing was so that I would have a floppy to save on, and maybe even get my 8201A to talk to it :-) Thanks in advance. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. -- Kehlog Albran ----------- From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:09:11 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of which I didn't have. Wordstar Ver. 3 Spellstar Correctstar Mailmerge The Speller Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) Polyplot Statistix Ver. 2.0 Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) 1988 Subscriber's disk Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) 100/150 System Demo 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) 150 Computer Tutor 150 MS Basic 150 Application Master 150 MS Pascal 150 System Work disk 150 Application Work disk 100 series MS Fortran These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my FTP site soon. Ernest From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 8 22:09:09 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> References: ; from rdd@smart.net on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400 Message-ID: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Date sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:51:11 -0700 From: sjm To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize about > > having my money wasted. > > Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. > > -Seth > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could look like a tremendous waste of money and time. The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! We have everything we need, right here." I've been following the space program for as long as I can remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:10:40 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200006082250.SAA23491@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: <000101bfd1c0$4ada26c0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> There are a couple of these at REPC in Seattle also, if anyone is interested. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of R. D. Davis Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:50 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) I found this on comp.sys.3b1 in case anyone can save it: ------- start of forwarded message ------- Path: news.smart.net!outfeed2.news.cais.net!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1. bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news4.m co.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> From: Average Torvaldsian Organization: Happy enough without any, thanks for asking... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.37 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.att,comp.sys.3b1 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.231.1 X-Trace: news4.mco 960142535 216.78.231.1 (Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT Xref: news.smart.net comp.sys.att:2874 comp.sys.3b1:1794 I have a 3B2/600 to give to whomever wants it. It belonged to the local AT&T group here in Orlando FL (as an asset tag), and is apparently the only survivor of three that fed Usenet into the Central Florida area. It works fine, boots without problem, and includes a console terminal, keyboard, user books, and a number of tapes. One of those is said to be a bootable tape with a complete backup. Sixteen megs ram, two 120 meg SCSI drives, 5.25" floppy and tape drives. It does not have an net card, though: that died and was removed before I got it, nor does it have any disks. I don't have any time to devote to the poor thing, it looks all forlorn sitting in the corner, and I'd really like to see it go to someone who has the time to get the thing running. Obviously, due to the size and weight, I can not ship it, but it is here to be picked up in east Orange County, Fla, pretty much anytime. If you are close by in a surrounding county, I would be willing to bring it to you. If interested, or and we'll arrange pickup/drop off. Max. (ps: during the last week of June and first week of July, I will be in the Davenport (Scott County) area of Iowa, and if someone in the surrounding area is interested in it, let me know, as I'd also be willing to bring it for delivery.) -- All parts should go together without forcing... By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925. ------- end of forwarded message ------- -- -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:18:00 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights (pack o' wild dogs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bfd1c1$5125fa80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I don't have to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 I used to work for as a network admin for a snowboard company outside of Seattle, and dogs were allowed in the office. Every morning, there would be a pack of wild dogs making the rounds, desk to desk, begging for food, etc.. We had 22 dogs in the office at one time, on certain days, and they put on quite a show. It was fun but I'll bet that you won't see it happening soon at the offices downtown. Ernest From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 22:33:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (R. D. Davis) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, R. D. Davis wrote: > It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, > that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that > most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. A sick joke, indeed. > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? This is a good point. While I will slap anyone who walks into my computer room (containing about twenty machines, no PCs, well over a terabyte of disk storage, one Cray...some "classic" machines, some not) and calls anything a "toy"...I enjoy working with these systems so much that I can honestly call it "fun". As much fun as retrocomputing on the older PDP and VAX systems, as a matter of fact. So is it really that offensive to call them "toys"? Maybe not. One must not forget, however, that there *are* PDPs, VAXen, and Crays that are *not* so old. The PC marketeers would have everyone believe that anything that isn't a PC is old technology. That simply isn't the case. There are new (current technology) PDP11 systems (Mentec), there are new (albeit based on older technology) VAXen, and there are certainly new Crays. It's a stretch, but it seems that preserving "classic" computers is almost an exercise in preserving anything that's not a current Windoze box. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 22:34:31 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (Richard Erlacher) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.26055.814976.217001@phaduka.neurotica.com> For a lot of things, maybe...but lots of computational tasks simply aren't well suited to running on a thousand tiny buzzing Intel processors. -Dave McGuire On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at > 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave McGuire > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > > computing. > > > > -Dave McGuire > > > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements > and > > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: R. D. Davis > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd > like to > > > do > > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the > front > > > panel > > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest > chance > > > of > > > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what > you > > > ask. > > > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then > the > > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > R. D. Davis > > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 22:41:18 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:29 2005 Subject: Q-bus (was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights) Message-ID: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. > > > >signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build > > nope, it will bus timout on you. Boy did we find that out the hard way. The Software Results Q-Board was built back in the days of the MicroVAX-I and MicroPDP-11. The designers picked some time (by tapping off of a stage on a divide-by-N counter) to timeout while waiting for a DMA cycle. It was well outside the Q-bus spec of the day. This board worked in MicroVAX-II and -III designs with no complaint. Eventually, someone wanted to stick a Q-Board in a VAX 4000 with a TLZ04 interface. By the time this machine came out, the Q-bus was no longer implemented in the way it once was. Certain cards were no longer "in spec". The upshot of this was that the TLZ04 interface could grab the bus longer than the Q-Board would wait. The fix was to redesign the bus timeout circuit (a cut and a jump and a new PAL) because DEC sure wasn't going to change their interface to work in an older Qbus box. It took us quite a while to find this one because our board didn't change and there were no problems in 99% of the VAX 4000s out there. It was a piggy controller. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 21:43:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > We have everything we need, right here." Bad example :) > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Yeah! ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 23:21:36 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. > > Yeah! I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we going to find a place to ship Trent Lott? From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 00:16:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could > look like a tremendous waste of money and time. Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Is the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have originated without government intervention and become just as popular? > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets everywhere. :-) :-) :-) > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > We have everything we need, right here." Hmmm... interesting to think about. > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. You may be surprised that I agree with you: there are other reasons besides that. For example, the space program also exists so that large corporations can make billions of dollars in profits and use some of those profits to grant favors to the politicians who helped them make the profits extorted from taxpayers. More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a relatively small number of carefully selected people and other creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point in that? However, at the rate things are going, we'll probably cause our own extinction because of overpopulation and the resulting damage to the environment, long before we can find another planet to destroy. > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their abilities have been put to better use for society? > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Yes, but I wonder how much of this is actually necessary, and if it really does do much to improve the quality of people's lives. After all, the technology used in building comfortable houses to live in has been stable for many years. The automobile hasn't really improved much since the 1970s. The field of medicine would probably have done just as well, and perhaps better, if the money was spent on it, and, who knows, those horrid HMOs may never have even come to exist. Have the foods we eat improved as a result of the space program? Have people become kinder and more civil to one another as a result of the space program? Has the space program had any positive influence on spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that can also slice the one who created it. Perhaps it's been useful for the strategic defense initiative, but, that's been delayed and our most trustworthy and esteemed (<-sarcasm intended) president has crawled on his hands and knees to Russia asking for their permission for us to implement it! Perhaps he's so used to crawling on his hands and knees submitting to Hillary that he just can't help this, but that's no excuse, is it? I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking something, I'd very much like to know about it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 00:35:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we going to find > a place to ship Trent Lott? ROFL! :-) Hopefully it will be a place where he can't continue to protect horse abusers... I understand he's all for the protection of the torture, called soring, that some Tennessee Walker horses endure in order for their walk to be "ehnanced." Maybe it will be to some planet where they'll apply those chemical irritants to Lott's lower limbs to teach him how to walk so as to better entertain the aliens. ObClassiccmp: ------------- Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their houses in the winter in place of a furnace? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 9 00:51:19 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14656.34263.394797.149187@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 9, R. D. Davis wrote: > ObClassiccmp: > ------------- > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? I haven't run a heater in winter for quite some time. I have a small electric/ceramic heater in the bedroom because it's difficult to move the heat that far away from the machine room. But I only need that on the coldest of days. None of those are really my "classic" machines but I figured it'd fit. :) -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 9 02:08:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their >houses in the winter in place of a furnace? Well, the room in the house with all the computers (well, except the ones living in the garage) has the heating blocked off, and often has the window open in the middle of the Winter. It also happens to be the room that has the Airconditioner which gets used during the spring, summer and fall. The rest of the house is usually pretty chilly by comparison. Zane OTOH, most of that heat comes from 1 21" monitor, and the real problem is the design of this house. Even without the computer equipment on this room is considerably hotter than the rest of the house. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 02:06:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) It's OK, R.D. You can take your foot out of your mouth now. > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. Ok, stop there. No? Sigh... > On the other hand, the Internet is a great wasy for some people to > wasts vast sums of time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the > government to spy on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been > set up. Is the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well > designed feature disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, > isn't it likely that some other, perhaps more secure, form of > communication may have originated without government intervention and > become just as popular? Remember what I was saying about your foot? > More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may > become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the > survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt > that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a > relatively small number of carefully selected people and other > creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the > majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point > in that? The problem is not the sheer number of people on this planet, but the percentage of those that are complete and utter morons. > Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and > abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their > abilities have been put to better use for society? Yeah! We could use a LOT more creative ways to kill and maim people. Nukes just didn't go far enough, eh? > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > something, I'd very much like to know about it. Dude, one word: TANG! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 02:07:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather drool spit) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > ObClassiccmp: > ------------- > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? TANG! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 9 03:23:13 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights" (Jun 9, 0:08) References: Message-ID: <10006090923.ZM1528@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 9, 0:08, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On June 9, R. D. Davis wrote: > >Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > >houses in the winter in place of a furnace? > > Well, the room in the house with all the computers (well, except the ones > living in the garage) has the heating blocked off, Same with my office/computer room; there are two machines and an old (and therefore relatively power-hungry) hub that are on 24/7. It's a small room and has the heating off and the two adjacent rooms have the heating turned way down. There's usually a machine in the garage on 24/7 in the winter; if ever it's not on, there's a heater and/or dehumidifier there to protect the tools and 'puters. > OTOH, most of that heat comes from 1 21" monitor, and the real problem is > the design of this house. Even without the computer equipment on this room > is considerably hotter than the rest of the house. Funny how that happens, isn't it? Mine's the same: upper floor, centre room, just at the top of the stairs, seems to collect all the heat from downstairs -- and has a 20" Sony GDM1961/VRT-19HA. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 9 04:05:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) In-Reply-To: <002001bfd193$79422940$7364c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3940CF6C.24629.E4947AC@localhost> > >I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a > >local > >box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with > >Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no > >flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the > Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and > have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. > What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, > linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. Exactly what Julian Stacey did at VCFe for his NS32032 system. AFAIR he's always using old DOS laptops as terminals for his unix boxes. Gruss H. BTW: Herbert Kramer has put up some Lomos of VCFe 1.0 http://home.germany.net/101-246057/vcfe/vcfe.html -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 07:29:31 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. > > Ok, stop there. No? Sigh... Yeah, the quality of the tool is over rated. > The problem is not the sheer number of people on this planet, but the percentage of those that are complete and utter morons. Dude, it's both. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 9 08:08:44 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802A07@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@smart.net] > Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 1:35 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we > going to find > > a place to ship Trent Lott? I for one, was glad when Congressman John Glenn went back into space. Although, I was a bit disappointed when he returned. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/0b64e7c9/attachment-0001.html From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 9 08:13:24 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802A08@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their > systems to heat their > > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? > I live in South Florida... Even a PC will keep my house warm. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/4cb24fef/attachment-0001.html From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 08:09:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. Yes I have some machines that may qualify. Most may qualify as they are no longer used for revenue (often). However, at their time they were serious machines built to do serious work for the most part. So the closest thing I have to a toy is my trs80 (mod1). The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. PCs I have a hard time takething them seriously despite their enormous processing power. They arent built for the most part like a serviceable and relaible tool. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 08:30:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD3@TEGNTSERVER> > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > Dude, one word: TANG! I dittoed a Davis rant the other day, today I gotta nix one. Sellam, let me second your motion with- Teflon! -doug q From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Fri Jun 9 08:41:12 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com>; from ernestls@home.com on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700 References: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <20000609084112.A948@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - What is the address of your ftp site? john On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700, Ernest wrote: > > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > > Wordstar Ver. 3 > Spellstar > Correctstar > Mailmerge > The Speller > Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) > Polyplot > Statistix Ver. 2.0 > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) > 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) > 1988 Subscriber's disk > Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) > Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) > Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 > Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) > Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) > 100/150 System Demo > 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) > 150 Computer Tutor > 150 MS Basic > 150 Application Master > 150 MS Pascal > 150 System Work disk > 150 Application Work disk > 100 series MS Fortran > > These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my > FTP site soon. > > Ernest > > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 08:41:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD4@TEGNTSERVER> > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. I don't personally equate NASA with the space program. Yes, NASA runs the only real space program we have. But while R. D. Davis seems to decry them both, and many others are jumping in to defend both, let me offer an alternative view. For the most part, I have always supported manned space flight. And once upon a time working at NASA was my dream. But over the years, and particularly in the way that they acquired and then deliberately destroyed the Delta Clipper project and prototype (yes I have read the NASA reports in full and I still conclude the engineer who failed to check the landing strut because the instructions he got did not specify to do so most likely did so deliberately and on directions from higher-ups), I have come to see NASA as a bloated bureaucracy that would be best put to sleep. But I would still replace NASA with something that would carry on manned spaceflight. As for individuals, so also for society, that [a] mans reach should exceed his grasp. respectfully submitted, doug quebbeman From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 9 08:48:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000609083417.0193fe30@pc> At 01:16 AM 6/9/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space >age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the >space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets >everywhere. :-) :-) :-) I knew Tang would be mentioned early in this thread. I may have been born in 1963, but by what stretch is Tang considered an invention, never mind a significant one? I'd find it hard to believe that Kool Aid is more recent than Tang, never mind no doubt dozens of other flavored powders. So Tang had the sugar built-in? They couldn't have been the first to try that. Tang has some sort of extra vitamins in it? That's a big invention? (As an aside, these "freeze-dried ice cream" globs they sell at NASA are horrid. Grandma and Grandpa brought some back for the kids, and even they wouldn't touch them. Tang? Tang? How come no one is talking about the awful freeze-dried ice cream?) Velcro was invented by a fellow in Japan, as I recall - "velvet closure" and burdock seeds were the name and the inspiration. As for integrated circuits, etc. no doubt space funding might've paid for the R&D and motivation for companies to improve and shrink their products, but what - they didn't think there would be a giant worldwide market for smaller and cheaper radios, lower battery consumption, better transistors, etc? They wouldn't have done it on their own, eventually, or perhaps even at the same speed, as quickly as they could figure it out? - John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Jun 9 09:01:55 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <20000609140155.14161.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > > > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > > > Dude, one word: TANG! > > I dittoed a Davis rant the other day, today I gotta nix one. > > Sellam, let me second your motion with- Teflon! I wasn't going to chime in, but now that we are benignly listing 1960s technology brought to the fore by the space race, WD-40. The contractor who was producing it for NASA discovered its potential when employees were taking the product for use at home. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Jun 9 10:14:00 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: OT: Re: In defense of NASA In-Reply-To: <200006090535.AAA01605@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: R. D. et al, (* Disclaimer: I'm full time on a NASA project, the IMAGE mission, though my direct employer is Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, Texas, who does a lot of commercial space work as well as NASA. My views are mine alone, however, and do not represent company policy nor that of NASA. *) ... so you know which side my bread's buttered on, and by the way if you are a taxpayer, I thank you very much for your support and hope you feel that you get your money's worth out of IMAGE (http://pluto.space.swri.edu/IMAGE/) (you can see data on some of the links referenced there). I've worked hard to make it so. > Has the space program had any positive influence on >spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Yes. Remember the photo of the Earth, taken by the returning Apollo mission? Or Earthrise over the moon? That's a perspective that could never have been achieved without manned spaceflight. (I say manned, because no machine would have been programmed to look in the right direction at the right time, and notice the incredible aesthetic impact of that image, and capture it.) Its value is of course subjective - but there's a generation grown now that *knows*, because they've seen it, that Earth is just a big blue marble and not the entire universe. For better or worse, it's a finite planet. Is the ozone hole a big deal? Maybe, maybe not; but we would never have known about it - because we would never have noticed it - without the *global* data that could only be provided by satellite observations. What about global warming? We might have picked that up in 10 or 15 years from temperature measurements at land stations, or maybe not. In any case, it would have taken more years for global climate modelers to convince everyone else that the land data they had, plus limited sea-surface measurements from ships, really did amount to a significant change. Global sea-surface temperature measurements, collected by satellites, provided that insight to us about a quarter of a century earlier than we would otherwise have had it. Same notation for El Nino. Whether we take advantage of the data we have, and do smart things with it, is an open question, but we would not even have the options, in those cases, without spaceflight. There are similar arguments for land-use patterns, deforestation, pollution (airborne and water-borne) plumes, etc etc etc. Not that the data *could* not be collected without spacecraft - but that it would have been a lot harder and more expensive and in most cases *would* not have been done. We know our terrestrial problems better because of space activities. Communications satellites carry WWF, so maybe I shouldn't bring those up, .... oh heck yes I should. Living in North America, I can watch NHK news live broadcasts from Japan (for example). Is that a cultural benefit? You bet. I can see, and hear (and heck, maybe one day even understand) what's being thought and done about problems I don't even have (earthquakes? volcanoes? not in Texas), half a big blue marble away. Cultures I would never know existed are as close as a twist of a knob. Sure, some of that could be done with undersea lines - but not as soon and not as cheaply as with a satellite link. As for the Columbus argument ... I'm always nervous about that one. For me as a born Texan, descended of Germand and English settlers, heck yeah it was great that Isabella hocked her jewelry to pay for that expedition. As a Spaniard, I'd probably be a bit less enthusiastic; I mean looking at Spain now, it didn't do them much good in the long term. As a native American, I'd be pretty bummed about it - why didn't the silly Europeans stay over there and pave Europe? Depends on your perspective. But what I do think Spain bought for Columbus' trip, and was cheap at the price, and what I think NASA has bought for us and was *incredibly* cheap at the price, is potential. We know we *can* build solar power satellites and beam microwave energy to Earth to supply electricity for our classic computers :-) without contributing (as much) to global warming. We know we can put long-term facilities in low Earth orbit for medical reasons or biomedical research or crystallography or whatever. We know we can put people on the Moon and bring them home intact. We know we can go to Mars and colonize it, if we choose to. Those options are expensive, and some of them may not be worth it - it's a choice we have to make. But the fact that we *have* the choice is worth a lot to us as a nation, or as a species. - Mark From rivie at teraglobal.com Fri Jun 9 10:49:05 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Q-bus (was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights) In-Reply-To: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yeah, well, don't get me started about Qbus timeouts. I designed the Firefox Qbus adapter. It was an evil hideous hack, primarily because of Qbus timeouts. There were actually two Qbus adapters sold by DEC: their internally designed "tape adapter" (the FTAM) and my Qbus adapter (the FQAM). The FTAM supported only the TQK70 tape controller, and that was only because the TQK70 waits about 20 microseconds before timing out a transaction. I have an RQDX3 that was modified to work with the FTAM, but DEC didn't want to deliver that as a product and they certainly didn't want to modify _everything_ to work with the FTAM. The difficulty with the Firefox is twofold: it uses write-back caches and the cache has no invalid state. Since it uses write-back caches, a cache which contains a copy of data newer than that stored in memory intervenes in a transaction to supply the data. This is great, except it's really slow; to get the data out of a cache, the module supplying the data has to do a DMA request on its internal bus to get the data. This wouldn't necessarily be a problem except for the bit about not having an invalid state: once data gets into a cache, it's extraordinarily difficult to get it back out again. The Firefox is built around CVAX CPUs, so the internal bus used on all of the modules is the CVAX pin-bus. When it became time to design the Qbus adapter, the designer thought "Aha! All I have to do is slap a CQBIC (CVAX to Qbus adapter IC) down on the board next to the FBIC (Firefox bus interface chip) and wire them together!" Nope. A really annoying thing about the CQBIC is that it does not have an actual real scatter-gather map; it just has essentially a translation lookaside buffer. This means that it's possible the FTAM has to do the following in response to a QBus DMA read: - Evict whatever's in the FBIC's internal cache. - Fetch the scatter/gather map entry, which is probably in somebody's cache because it was just loaded with a mapping. - Fetch the word that needs to be supplied for the Qbus read, which is probably in somebody's cache because a program just wrote it into the DMA buffer. This can take an extraordinarily long amount of time on a write-back cache bus without an invalid state. Lord help you if you have to wait for someone else's transaction to another cache to finish before you can start yours. Did I forget to mention that the Firefox bus has a fair arbitration scheme to prevent bus hogging? That makes it even longer. I've seen it take 12 microseconds for the FBIC to cough up data! By the time I got involved, they had already tried the obvious hack of modding the FBIC to allow the QBus to have absolute priority in the bus arbitration. That was nice because it helped me out. To tame the Firefox bus, the FQAM had two key items: a complete on-board scatter/gather map and a bogus transaction generator to keep everyone else off the bus while QBus DMA was going on. The bogus transaction generator was started whenever a QBus device requested the bus. It kept the bus busy with short transactions so the FQAM could guarantee that it wouldn't have to wait for someone else's outrageously long transaction to complete before it could start its own transaction. It did, however, mean that nothing else happened in the system while the QBus was granted to a DMA device even if the DMA device wasn't doing anything with the bus. In addition to shutting down the entire bus during DMA, the FQAM itself was slow; I was only ever able to get about 250KB/s through the thing. The heart of the FQAM was a microcoded state machine built from registered PROMs. To compile the microcode, I wrote a bunch of macros for MACRO32 that turned it into my own personal microcode language. It took my poor little MicroVAX 2000 half an hour to assemble my microcode, which wound up being about 512 words. Try to explain the power of a true macro assembler to a Unix person and they just look at you funny. Anyway, AFAIK I'm the only person outside of DEC that ever designed to the Firefox bus and I did two of them: the FQAM and MasPar's front-end interface (MasPar got a really good deal from DEC on Firefoxes, but it didn't take them long to move to using the DECstation 5000 as the front end). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 10:55:20 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. Sounds like a computer to me. > Yes I have some machines that may qualify. Most may qualify as they > are no longer used for revenue (often). However, at their time they were > serious machines built to do serious work for the most part. So the > closest thing I have to a toy is my trs80 (mod1). Serious humbug. They were built as expensive toys to play with. Now then, pay careful attention: that doesn't mean that those treating them as toys are careless with their work, they're just having fun and most likely doing much better quality work as a result of their enjoyment of their work. When work ceases to be fun, that's when the bad mistakes, etc. occur due to boredom and an "I don't give a damn, I just want a paycheck for showing up here each day." attitude sets in, when the fun becomes finding creative ways of avoiding actually doing much of any work, annoying certain annoying cow-prkers, etc., as there must be some sort of motivation for at least showing up at work, where fun is the motivation. > The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 > or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. Why should he not think of that machine tool as a toy, esp. if he enjoys his work and is good at it? Heck, he probably even has a pet name for the machine. No chauvenism intended, just a psychological curiosity: Do I sense that men and women sometimes tend to think of work in the computer field differently, with many women having a dreadfully serious outlook on their work and men treating it more as something that's supposed to be fun and games? Maybe this has something to do with many men growing as boys playing with erector sets, heathkits, building forts, and having soldering irons, hammers, screwdrivers, etc. in their hands while they were still learning to read. Then, after growing up, we still consider such things, whether a little PC, an IBM mainframe, or even a multinational corporation, to be toys to play with. > PCs I have a hard time takething them seriously despite their enormous > processing power. They arent built for the most part like a serviceable > and relaible tool. Well said. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 10:57:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) More properly, it was not ARPAnet, but the NSFnet. While the ARPAnet laid all of the groundwork, it did not survive to become the "Internet" today. The NSFnet did survive, especially the switch to commercialization in the early-mid 1990s. > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, > the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of > time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy > on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Why pick on the AOLers (and the rest of the masses that have jumped on the net since 1992)? If anything, they (or rather the commercialization) has been a big benefit. If the NSFnet stayed a non-profit network, unlike today, we would see the following: * Today's network would be a ploddingly slow set of saturated T1s and T3s. T5s would have been out of the question, as would SONET. The NSFnet just couldn't afford an upgrade like those. Competeing backbones just would not be what they are today. * Dialup access would be unavailable to nearly all people, either because POPs were too far away or the extreme price. $19.95/month unlimited access would be a fantasy. * Modem technology would probably be stuck at 33.6 kbps, as there would not be any huge incentive for the race to 56K. The same holds true for router technology. These three points are all pretty important - in fact if just one of the three were true, the net would be a great deal less of a tool. So what's wrong with AOLers and AOL? Not much. Sure some a clueless, but then some of the smartest people in the world use it. AOL doesn't choke the network, as they mostly use their own stuff. Many very interesting web pages full of useful content have now sprung up because John Q. Public can sign up with AOL with any knowledge of supergeeky Unix and modem stuff. There is lots of garbage as well, but the key to not letting it bother you is simply not to view it. > Is > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > disguised as a flaw? No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix security is just not that good. > Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely > that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have > originated without government intervention and become just as popular? In the 1970s, there were other networks that ran around the U.S and Europe, but these were all very closed systems. Some were private ventures, most were academic. They were mostly, however, a mess. Some still exist, but completely out of the public eye. If the NSFnet never existed, most people would not even know what the word "network" means. > The automobile hasn't really improved > much since the 1970s. Whatever. > Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and > it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly > been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged > sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that > can also slice the one who created it. A large portion - probably a majority - of the technologies that we use in our computers was in some major way influenced by military developement. Even though military technology tends to be roughly ten years ahead of the commercial technology at any given time, the effects are felt in time (usually about ten years). Yes, it may seem unethical that Uncle Sam is dumping tons of money into equipment that is basically used to kill people, but that same technology will benefit people in a very large, peaceful way in time. WIlliam Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 11:43:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> > > Is > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > disguised as a flaw? > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > security is just not that good. This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security has not improved. First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was that it would provide information sharing between a small number of trusted and trusting sites. However, from my own personal experience, I have never succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the second time. regards, -doug quebbeman From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 9 11:44:32 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Decwriter III's in Kansas City Message-ID: I have two Decwriter III's that were taken out of service in January. They were working when turned off. They are not light weight. I will send them to anyone who wants them for $10 each plus shipping. The $10 is to find a box/pallet and haul them to the shipping office. Anybody can have them for free if they want to pick them up. The other option is I donate them to the computer surplus. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mark_k at iname.com Fri Jun 9 13:14:50 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs Message-ID: Hi, Thanks for the several helpful replies on this topic. On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 Clint Wolff wrote: > I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will > result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. > Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. > Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are > shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. > The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly > short time after opening (couple days IIRC). Ah, I have read about that. IC manufacturers often specify a procedure to use when chips which may have absorbed water are to be used. This involves baking at low temperature for a while. Assuming that (for the purposes of removing absorbed water) one plastic IC package is the same as the next, at which temperature and for how long should this baking be done? The lowest setting on my oven is 70 degrees C. If that is low enough -- I guess it should be as most ICs are specified for operation to 75 C or so -- I may try putting the board in there for 12 or 24 hours, before turning the temperature up to melt the solder. -- Mark From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 11:20:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000609083417.0193fe30@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > As for integrated circuits, etc. no doubt space funding might've > paid for the R&D and motivation for companies to improve and > shrink their products, but what - they didn't think there would > be a giant worldwide market for smaller and cheaper radios, lower > battery consumption, better transistors, etc? They wouldn't have > done it on their own, eventually, or perhaps even at the same speed, > as quickly as they could figure it out? Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted from this was computers. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 12:29:15 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook><14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com><001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.26055.814976.217001@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001901bfd238$3cdd4980$0400c0a8@winbook> It wasn't my intention to suggest that it's practically a reality to replace a CRAY with a bunch of PC's, but rather to point out that PC's are what people think of today as a computer. Twenty years ago they'd have thought of a behemoth, but the popular vision of a computer now looks more like your desktop system. What's more, taking the SETI-at-home notion as an example, it is possible to do SOME of those tasks on a bunch of PC's with their Intel processors. Of course, the CRAY may do it closer to real-time, but it seldom can do that either. How far off real-time it is probably doesn't matter as much as one might think once we're decoupled from real time continuous processing. Doing it in realtime (whatever "doing-it" means) often requires computers executing exaflops, which we don't seem to have, ...yet..., though it is achievable by segmenting the data and processing it separately on thousands of machines. There's lots of latency, but with enough machines participating in the process, "it" can, theoretically be accomplished on a continuous basis. I was being facetious in the original comment, but it is, in fact, true that the popular vision of "computer" has changed over the past two decades. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > For a lot of things, maybe...but lots of computational tasks simply > aren't well suited to running on a thousand tiny buzzing Intel processors. > > -Dave McGuire > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at > > 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dave McGuire > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > > > > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > > > computing. > > > > > > -Dave McGuire > > > > > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements > > and > > > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: R. D. Davis > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd > > like to > > > > do > > > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the > > front > > > > panel > > > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest > > chance > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what > > you > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then > > the > > > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > R. D. Davis > > > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > > > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 12:41:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon observed in conjunction with an accident. I certainly hope you're joking! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > from this was computers. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 9 13:51:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals In-Reply-To: <20000608233422.605.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- allisonp wrote: >> Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and >> have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. > >At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- >directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer >models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 >can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard I have a few of these PE3 10bt adapters, headed for eBay, but I will let anybody on the list buy one directly for $10 and shipping ($4 in US). Your choice of ONE power source, AC adapter, or serial cheater cord. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 9 13:57:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD4@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >But I would still replace NASA with something that would carry >on manned spaceflight. As for individuals, so also for society, >that [a] mans reach should exceed his grasp. NASA should get out of the commercial side of the space business, PERIOD. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 13:19:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. > > Sounds like a computer to me. ;) could be. > Serious humbug. They were built as expensive toys to play with. Now > then, pay careful attention: that doesn't mean that those treating Well, I know people that play hard and work hard and both are the same thing. Me for one. Electronics is hobby, serious study and what I do to pay the bills. I enjoy it. > enjoyment of their work. When work ceases to be fun, that's when the > bad mistakes, etc. occur due to boredom and an "I don't give a damn, I ;) Ah ha! True. > > The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 > > or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. > > Why should he not think of that machine tool as a toy, esp. if he > enjoys his work and is good at it? Heck, he probably even has a pet > name for the machine. it is that persons perogative. generally toys are associated with recreation though. Still, an NC mill is a fine toy. > Do I sense that men and women sometimes tend to think of work in the > computer field differently, with many women having a dreadfully Not the women I know. Then again I hang in different circles where a job is more than a means to an end. > with many men growing as boys playing with erector sets, heathkits, > building forts, and having soldering irons, hammers, screwdrivers, > etc. in their hands while they were still learning to read. Then, > after growing up, we still consider such things, whether a little PC, > an IBM mainframe, or even a multinational corporation, to be toys to > play with. With two brothers into all that I got to play and do as a result. However to your last line... I build with wood too as that was my fathers influence. When my toys can impact on others (running a multinational) it's time to play seriously and hard. To borrow a line success is _fun_, for lack of a better word. I find it disappointing there are not more women in high Tech fields. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 13:27:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > security is just not that good. > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > has not improved. But it has. The content however has become dangerous to the end users. With all the viruses the internet as a backbone has not burped, whole groups of end nodes and local networks have suffered however due to poor security on their part. In the end don't blame the highway for the dead cow on the median. > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > second time. A huge amount of stuff happend between now and then. if it didn't we'd still depend on UUCP batches running at 3am over modems to route mail. I say that as one that used internet back when it took overnight to get mail from MA to CA. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jun 9 16:51:26 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Fixin' der Tandy 2 floppydrivenspiegelthingengruppebochs In-Reply-To: <200006090315.UAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000609175126.00c26e00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: >Good news und bat news. > >I got a nice Tandy 200 package today, unit, power supplies, manuals and even >some Club 100 disks in the original hard case. Very nice and the machine, >after a little of fiddling and a cold start, is running well. That's the good >news. Sehr Gute News. ;-) >The bad news, alas, is the 3.5" RS-232 floppy that came with it. (Yes, >RS-232 floppy drive; hopefully someone has seen one of these.) It will >not power up on either the power supply (original power supply, btw, which >works with the M200 just fine), or new batteries. All it does is flash its >low battery light briefly, spin for about a second, and shut off. I took >a look at the board but couldn't see anything physically shot. How do you know it's turning off? The blinkenlight is to let you know of 1) low battery, and 2) drive activity. It's normal for the blinkenlight to turn off after a successful powerup, so it sounds like it's working correctly. Impotent question #1: Did you receive the special hookemupper cable that came with the drive? This is *super* important, as a standard RS232 will not work - the cable has internal electronics (read: transistors & stuff) to change the voltage levels to/from the drive. Do not wire up a straight cable between any computer & the drive - you will fry the electronics in the drive! Impotent question #2: Is it a Portable disk drive (PDD), or a Portable disk drive 2 (PDD2)? Big difference, in storage space (100K vs. 200K) and startup procedures. Impotent question #3: Did you get a boot disk with the drive? If so, IIRC this is how you get the poor excuse for a DOS into the laptop with a PDD2 (all I've ever owned.): Hook up the cable between computer & floppy drive. Insert the boot floppy into the drive, but do not turn it on yet. Turn on the computer. Go into basic and issue this command: RUN "COM:98N1DNN" ^ If the above command doesn't work, change that D to an E and try again. Turn on the floppy drive. That should start the software download from the boot floppy to the computer. If you don't have a PDD2, read the instructions if you got them, if not, go to http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html. There's a *ton* of info for the Model 100/102/200 series there, and the owner of Club 100, Rick Hanson, has got to be one of the nicest people on the planet. There is also a listserver dedicated to the Model 100/102/200 machines, and to subscribe, send a blank email to: m100-subscribe@list.30below.com and you will receive a confirmation message. Reply to that confirmation message, and you're subscribed! There's actually been a fair amount of activity on there lately, and with over 150 subscribers to the list, there's one heckuva lotsa brains there to pick! (I administer the list, that's why it's a ) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 9 17:09:44 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > > > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could > > look like a tremendous waste of money and time. > > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) > > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, > the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of > time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy > on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Is > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely Possibly, but the same criticism can be made of radio, telephone, fax, and most other modes of electronic communication. It is all monitored. > that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have > originated without government intervention and become just as popular? > > > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. > > Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space > age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the > space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets > everywhere. :-) :-) :-) > > > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > > We have everything we need, right here." > > Hmmm... interesting to think about. > > > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > > You may be surprised that I agree with you: there are other reasons > besides that. For example, the space program also exists so that > large corporations can make billions of dollars in profits and use > some of those profits to grant favors to the politicians who helped > them make the profits extorted from taxpayers. > > More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may > become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the > survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt > that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a > relatively small number of carefully selected people and other > creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the May we presume boarding 'two by two'? > majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point > in that? > > However, at the rate things are going, we'll probably cause our own > extinction because of overpopulation and the resulting damage to the > environment, long before we can find another planet to destroy. > > > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > > Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and > abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their > abilities have been put to better use for society? > > > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. > > Yes, but I wonder how much of this is actually necessary, and if it > really does do much to improve the quality of people's lives. After > all, the technology used in building comfortable houses to live in has > been stable for many years. The automobile hasn't really improved > much since the 1970s. The field of medicine would probably have done > just as well, and perhaps better, if the money was spent on it, and, > who knows, those horrid HMOs may never have even come to exist. Have > the foods we eat improved as a result of the space program? Have > people become kinder and more civil to one another as a result of the > space program? Has the space program had any positive influence on > spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Blame it on the Soviets and the rich kid (with the rich father) from Boston ;-P - don > Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and > it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly > been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged > sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that > can also slice the one who created it. Perhaps it's been useful for > the strategic defense initiative, but, that's been delayed and our > most trustworthy and esteemed (<-sarcasm intended) president has > crawled on his hands and knees to Russia asking for their permission > for us to implement it! Perhaps he's so used to crawling on his hands > and knees submitting to Hillary that he just can't help this, but > that's no excuse, is it? > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 9 17:45:30 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Ahoi Dick, > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > from this was computers. > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > observed in conjunction with an accident. Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep around. > I certainly hope you're joking! He is :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:07:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <004701bfd199$4f4e5b80$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 8, 0 04:31:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/3767c19b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:09:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 8, 0 06:45:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/8ae51266/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:15:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 8, 0 04:21:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/24df7746/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:23:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 8, 0 11:33:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1303 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/a374be8c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:29:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Jun 9, 0 09:09:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/ad9efd3e/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:34:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:30 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609140155.14161.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 9, 0 07:01:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/8991324d/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 18:12:06 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> References: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609160612.0243a4d0@208.226.86.10> At 12:45 AM 6/10/00 +0200, Hans wrote: >Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. >None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, >it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. If you want to be blunt, the absolute best "engine" for developing new technologies is a good old fashioned war. One school of thought would argue that the "space race" was simply the cover story for developing better missile technology and other armaments. However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a space program (regardless of the motivations for pursuing space). By and large "mainstream" entities (ie business, banking, etc) do not "develop" technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of computers, fax machines (which were in vented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't change their ways. --Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 18:10:56 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > even a good penetrating oil. It was actually originally a repeller, mostly made of Stoddard solvent. The original idea was to use WD-40 to clean out surfaces of machining oils, water, general crud, etc. so a lubricant can be introduced to fresh metal. In fact, one of the things it is good for is getting rid of lubrication! Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" both jobs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From red at bears.org Fri Jun 9 18:18:53 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" > both jobs. It's slippery, right? -gurgle-. IME the only thing WD40 is useful for, is, as you've said, flushing gunk out of a mechanical device, which it does without hesitation or prejudice. ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 9 18:19:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I personnally think you should need a license (granted based on a test on > cluefulness) to buy WD-40 :-)... > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > even a good penetrating oil. Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 17:32:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > > from this was computers. > > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > > observed in conjunction with an accident. > > Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. > None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, > it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. > Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge > about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have > been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, > we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep > around. > > > I certainly hope you're joking! > > He is :) No, I'm not. As usual, I have no idea what Dick was blathering about. But, the point is that WWII and the Space Race brought about unprecedented advancements in many fields of technology, not the least of which was computing technology. This is moronically obvious and I am not making any sort of astute observation here. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 18:50:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: WD-40 uses In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609164948.00bf4d90@208.226.86.10> At 11:19 PM 6/9/00 +0000, Eric wrote: >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). Its an excellent gun preservative. Used on the metal parts it repels moisture and oils preventing oxidation of the metals. --Chuck From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 9 19:12:34 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: WD-40 (was: Re: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > > even a good penetrating oil. > > It was actually originally a repeller, mostly made of Stoddard solvent. > The original idea was to use WD-40 to clean out surfaces of machining > oils, water, general crud, etc. so a lubricant can be introduced to fresh > metal. In fact, one of the things it is good for is getting rid of > lubrication! > > Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" > both jobs. And don't forget the urban legends crowd, who insist that WD-40 can treat arthritis (!) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 20:12:18 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> Great brag today. Two ROM 03 Apple IIgses with 1MB RAM, keyboards, two sets of two each of 5.25" and 3.5" UniDisks and a nice composite monitor. But that's not the interesting part. The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But I shan't complain too much :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 20:13:52 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Tandy 2 drive oops Message-ID: <200006100113.SAA07402@oa.ptloma.edu> Roger, I think you sent me an answer about the Tandy 2 floppy drive, but in my haste I deleted it by accident. Could you resend it? I'm terribly sorry about that. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 20:15:01 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Message-ID: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Without getting into detail, which would require I refresh my memory about a number of these examples, I'd point out that EPOXY is one that came about by accident, although there are many others. I'd be surprised to find that someone set out to build a semiconductor, knowing that the physical chemistry of the substances involved, and that people, though they knew in advance that such things could be done, simply hadn't bothered for one reason or another. Likewise, I recently saw a PBS program that went into some detail about the invention of RADAR. That certainly wasn't planned out in advance. Nobel (according to another PBS program) didn't set about to invent Nitrogycerin, nor, knowing about nitrogycerine, did he set out to invent nitrocellulose, And, of course, there's the Post-It. That certainly was an accident, resulting from a spill, according to the inventor, who was interviewed on an NPR program. I'd be really surprised to learn that someone sat down one day saying, "I'm going to invent CMOS devices now!" I'd be really pleased, in fact, to know even one significant invention that was produced by a typical over-organized and micro-managed NASA engineering team of the sort I remember from back in the Apollo days. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Ahoi Dick, > > > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > > from this was computers. > > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > > observed in conjunction with an accident. > > Seriously, I doubt that any useful development was done by accident. > None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, > it's plain old hard work to do it - and this would have happened anyway. It's true that it requires great deal of effort to turn any invention into something useful. By definition, however, it's really difficult to find even one case wherein someone set about to invent new technology knowing that he could do it. The vast sums of money have to be justfied by the promise of some well defined result. Invention is, by definition, not well defined in advance of its occurrence. > Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge > about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have > been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, > we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep > around. > Fuel cell technology, not of tremendous interest in many places outside the space-flight realm, certainly was an outgrowth of the space effort that would still be undeveloped but for the need for it presented by space exploration and satellite communication. However, if there had been no space exploration effort afoot, low-power semiconductor technology would probably not yet have evolved. My own experience in the electronics engineering field certainly has shown me more examples of a technology developed elsewhere and a potential entrepeneur looking at it with the question, "How can I captialize on this to make some money?" It's not until someone finds an answer to this question that most of us even learn of a new technology. Exceptions abound, of course, over the course of the space exploration effort, where the government, anxious to justify its vast expenditures, has publicized newly developed technology intended for application in the military or in space, but for which undeveloped potential in the commercial world exists. The military is somewhat more judicious about what it publicizes, but the same principles apply. > > > I certainly hope you're joking! > > He is :) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From ernestls at home.com Fri Jun 9 20:53:20 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <20000609084112.A948@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <000001bfd27e$a8658140$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> It isn't actually officially open yet but I'm hoping to have it all ready by next weekend. I'm trying to tie it into a web page that I'm making. I'll post it here as soon as it's open, so look for a notification by next weekend. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Ott Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 6:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New HP150 software finds. Hello - What is the address of your ftp site? john On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700, Ernest wrote: > > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > > Wordstar Ver. 3 > Spellstar > Correctstar > Mailmerge > The Speller > Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) > Polyplot > Statistix Ver. 2.0 > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) > 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) > 1988 Subscriber's disk > Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) > Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) > Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 > Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) > Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) > 100/150 System Demo > 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) > 150 Computer Tutor > 150 MS Basic > 150 Application Master > 150 MS Pascal > 150 System Work disk > 150 Application Work disk > 100 series MS Fortran > > These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my > FTP site soon. > > Ernest > > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 9 21:06:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 09, 2000 06:12:18 PM Message-ID: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Great brag today. Two ROM 03 Apple IIgses with 1MB RAM, keyboards, two > sets of two each of 5.25" and 3.5" UniDisks and a nice composite monitor. But > that's not the interesting part. > > The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System > 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file > server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon > Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) > > How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building > the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but > obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT > come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network > boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. I *think* it's part of the basic Apple //GS 'System 6' software. Geez, been so long since I've messed with mine that I can't even remember what the OS is called for sure. Anyway last I heard you could still get the disk images for the last OS release of an Apple FTP server, the trick is finding out where. > By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB > mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But > I shan't complain too much :-) Ouch, you should have shopped around! Of course I'm the fool who has been threatening to buy a spare brand new Apple Extended Keyboard II, and a couple spare ADB II Mice. They work great on my G4 with a USB-to-ADB converter, and since ADB is gone, it might be a good idea to pick up a couple new spares while I still can. Zane From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 21:28:29 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <002901bfd283$911b56e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's probably exactly the way you suggest, Tony, but I'd say you ay be overlooking the most obvious way to do this sort of thing, i.e. use volatile programmable logic. I doubt any patent will be violated if you use an old schematic as the model for an implementation that couldn't have existed in the timeframe within which a patent might have been valid. A patent applies to the implementation of the items that are claimed as original or innovative. It will be your implementation that is innovative if you do it this way. Another point worth considering is the relative risk of being sued. If you build a single copy of your implementation, even if it is on a standard FPGA board sold for many purposes, it is a unique effort, yielding a unique product, no longer really the same board built by the manufacturer, yet it will be able to execute, and quite precisely if your implementation is good, the instructions the original one did. However, if there were any money in this implementation, someone would be building it and you'd have THEM to worry about, not the original maker. If one's dreaming of making a bundle supplying an old war-horse that died years back, even at a 50-fold preformance increase, it's not likely to be worth the filing fees. If you don't like how it works, you can fiddle with it to your heart's delight, without any resoldering or cut and paste. Now, there is, actually a risk you might not be able to preserve pinouts, so what I'd recommend is to build a board with your FPGA (one is normally better than two or more, since many pins of I/O are lost if you try to use small devices where a larger one is indicated) surrounded with dual row pin-fields over which you can interconnect the signal paths with longer jumpers if need be in subsequent revisions or other architectures. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > I haven't had -that- particular fantasy, but another one... > > > > ... creating copies of certain "classic" machines. If you were able to buy, > > say, an original Nova in a box that for all the detail you wanted was the > > same as the original, and inside had the same chips on the same size PC board, > > would that be cool? Sure, you're have to use materials you could get today > > to do it, but accurately done, it might be interesting. > > Yes, I've thought about this too.... > > Technically, it's not that hard, if you allow 'minor' changes in the > chips -- using 74HCT chips in place of plain 74xx (and making other > necessary changes), for example. Or using larger, more modern SRAM chips > to replace ones that are hard to find and expensive now. > > Legally there are at least 2 problems. Firstly, the design is probably > still covered by some form of copyright (IANAL). Most schematics of these > old computers have notices on them preventing them from being used to > make copies of the machine. My guess is that some manufacturers might > well give the permision, though. > > The second problem is that these old machines may well not meet modern > standard for RFI emissions, etc. Which (at least in the UK) matters even > if you're only making a 1-off :-( > > > > > > I'm -not- saying building up clones of certain rare old computers and trying > > to pass them off as originals, but rather, trying to make clones that are > > undistinguishable from the original. > > I would want to make some change that made it impossible to pass it off > as the original. Perhaps putting the text 'Copy created by ' > in an inside layer of the PCB, so it could be seen if the board were held > up to the light, but couldn't be removed without destroying the board. I > have no interest in making fakes, I have every interest in playing with > machines that I otherwise wouldn't be able to see. > > -tony > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 21:48:56 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <003301bfd286$6d211b00$0400c0a8@winbook> You'll have to sell me on this one, Tony. blinking the lights in sync with a simulator via EPP is dirt-simple and very fast. I2C requires either hardware or time-consuming software to generate, and generating and debugging the software will consume a lot of time too. Further, it requires lots of specialized ( I haven't got any of those parts here . . .) hardware at the receiving end, and I have lots of parts . . . The EPP is infinitely extensible, i.e. it's possible, though unrealistic, to build a system with 64K 64K-bit ports all controlled by a single PC from its parallel port. The thing thats beautiful about that is that it's possible to build the system as wide, or deep, as you like without using any different hardware at the PC end. More below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > There are plug-in boards that provide an extra SPP/EPP/ECP port, which is > > safer than simply using the motherboard-resident one. That would be less > > trouble if you were to break it than would be the one on the motherboard. > > > > The EPP port is more desirable, IMHO, simply because it isolates your > > "hobby-project" from the inards of the computer. It also provides a handy > > connector, and a simple protocol by which to provide yourself with up to 256 > > I/O ports in either direction, without having to open the box except to plug > > The other possibility (which is _very_ easy, and fast enough for > human-readable lamps and switches) is to bit-bang I2C over a couple of > lines of the printer port (you need 1 input (data in) and 2 outputs (data > out and clock out) -- you don't need the clock input for most common > devices). Then hang a few PCF8584 and PCF8584A chips off it (each is a > single 8 bit I/O port, and you can have 8 of _each_ on a single I2C bus). > > > > in the parallel port card. If one happened to come with a DLL with which > > you can write WINDOWS code for your port, so much the better! > > Well, if you _must_ use that so-called OS, I suppose so... Personally, > I'd rather have a linux system, a copy of gcc and a bit-level definition > of the registers on the card.... > You don't need a bit-level definition beyond the standard, since all EPP ports are defined/characterized in IEEE standard 1284. There are dozens of sites that provide details and code examples on the web. > > > > One rather important aspect, of course, is that the printer port can really > > drive the properly terminated cable, while a "normal" MOS LSI for parallel > > That is, alas, not always the case. A lot of printer ports have pretty > poor drive characteristics. Maybe some modern ones (particularly > high-speed/EPP/etc ones) are better. > I think you may be misinformed, here, Tony. The original port (LSTTL) was CERTAINLY able to drive a cable of up to 20' length, though it wasn't recommended. The extremely popular 82C11 that occupies about two thirds of the pre-IEEE-STD-1284 port boards I have lying about, drives harder than the original TTL version after which it is patterned. The TTL used by the original PC was probably the least hefty driver set ever used on the PC printer port. > > > I/O, e.g. 8255, 6821, etc, can't. > > Yes, but for this application (driving an 11/45 panel) you need to drive > normal TTL loads not that fast. > I'm not familiar with the 11/45 FP. Does it have receivers that can get by with the less-than half milliamp source and little more than a single milliamp sink current of these devices ( one port may drive 2 mA . . . ??) I don't know how well the 6821 or 8255 like driving cables. I've never tried it because they always were buffered in applications I've studied. In fact, I've found the buffers normally work more conveniently than the LSI's they serve, so I normally do things with TTL/CMOS logic and leave out the fancy LSI's unless there's a specific requirement (in writing) for them. > > -tony > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 9 22:53:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the hard drive? Joe From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 21:57:23 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > A totally mad project that somewhere on the to-be-hacked pile is to > modify the 8085 console system on an 11/44. Hang blickenlights and > switches off that processor (which would mean hardware mods to the MFM > card, but I have the prints...) and modify the console firmware to look > at them, and to edit PDP11 memory, etc, from them. And to still use the > serial port as the normal console terminal port. That sounds like great fun; a PDP-11/44 to PDP-11/44t conversion project! Does anyone know of any sources for some colorful, and well-made, switches that would look like they belong on an older computer's front panel? For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or vice versa? Front panel analog meters for monitoring the PSU voltage levels would be useful as well. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 22:13:57 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Jun 9, 0 07:06:36 pm" Message-ID: <200006100313.UAA10028@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I *think* it's part of the basic Apple //GS 'System 6' software. Geez, been ::so long since I've messed with mine that I can't even remember what the OS ::is called for sure. Anyway last I heard you could still get the disk images ::for the last OS release of an Apple FTP server, the trick is finding out ::where. Yeah, I heard a rumour that Apple offered GS/OS there, but I don't have any way of transferring the software (unless an Apple II meister out there would like to explain how ...) Can today's Macs format ProDOS volumes still? If not, does anyone have GS/OS on disk, or willing to make copies? I would gladly reimburse any inconvenience or we could come to an equitable understanding ... :-) By the way, about upgrading the SE/30. I want to upgrade the thing to System 7.x but NOT if it will mean I can no longer run AppleShare File Server. Can I download a System 7 friendly ASFS anywhere? This poor thing doesn't even have MultiFinder. I do know that Apple has System 7 for download, and I should hope a 68K version of ASFS ... ? ::Ouch, you should have shopped around! Of course I'm the fool who has been ::threatening to buy a spare brand new Apple Extended Keyboard II, and a ::couple spare ADB II Mice. They work great on my G4 with a USB-to-ADB ::converter, and since ADB is gone, it might be a good idea to pick up a ::couple new spares while I still can. That was why I got stuck on the price. CompUkeSA has plenty of USB stuff but only one ADB model of mouse in the whole freaking store. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 19:59:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA:was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <004c01bfd281$cd47c470$7764c0d0@ajp166> >> Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" >> both jobs. It does contain some very light oil. Not the best lube though, then again mousemilk isn't either and I have both for those times when... WD40, like LPS-5, 3in1, LMO (light machine oil) and various lubricants on my shelf are like the assortment of hammers I have. Some are brass dead blows, plastic, wood, claw and ballpeen all for specific uses. When used for the right purpose the right to is a great help. WD40 is like screwdrivers as they get used for hammers, prybars and whatnot all to the great consternation of the machinest sorts that know and appreciate tools. Allison From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 22:27:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > hard drive? Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, didn't you? Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result in filesystem damage. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 22:48:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000609204719.0323c8e0@208.226.86.10> >For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone >have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or >vice versa? Actually in my PDP-8/x the use of white LEDs seems like it will be a win. --Chuck From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jun 9 23:25:57 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe Rigdon wrote: > > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > > hard drive? R.D. Davis replied: > Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, > didn't you? A familiar refrain ;>) > Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if > the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and > if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result > in filesystem damage. Granted, this is correct on both counts: the ps needs tested before it's applied to the system, and the heads probably need to be parked before the system is moved. If I understand Mr. Davis correctly, he's suggesting that the ps be tested and possibly repaired or replaced, then the system should be booted and the heads parked, all before taking the system home. Try doing this in a surplus store. Hmm, and what happens if the ps is okay but the system won't come up? Still can't move it until you park those heads . . . Personally, I just throw caution to the winds, handle the item as carefully as possible (it's probably been kicked around for years) and take it home so I can try to figure out what it is that I'm now the Proud Owner of ;>) Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 00:06:39 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Try doing this in a surplus store. Hmm, and what happens if the ps is okay > but the system won't come up? Still can't move it until you park those heads > . . . > > Personally, I just throw caution to the winds, handle the item as carefully > as possible (it's probably been kicked around for years) and take it home so > I can try to figure out what it is that I'm now the Proud Owner of ;>) Yes, if any damage was done to J.R.'s system, it quite possibly occured as a result of those who handled the system, perhaps carelessly, before he got it. Of course, carrying tools and a VOM to surplus store, thrift shop, hamfest (radio rally), etc. could be rather useful. The problem is that the person rescuing the equipment will most likely run into equipment from time to time with disk heads that she or he won't know how to park, and won't have the time to learn how to park them, if the equipment is to be saved. A bit of a catch-22. That said... Has anyone considered, or written, a head-parking FAQ for classic computers, listing drives that need to have their heads parked, and ways of doing this for various types of systems? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rivie at teraglobal.com Sat Jun 10 00:24:42 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > > By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB > > mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But > > I shan't complain too much :-) > >Ouch, you should have shopped around! Yeah, no kidding. The local university here has been disposing of old Mac stuff like you wouldn't believe. I came across a pile of LCIIs at the surplus store for $5 each and every one of them has enough RAM to run NetBSD as well as an Ethernet card. They also had a big box of ADB keyboards and mice for $5 each. Needless to say, I spent more money than I intended to (2 ea keyboard and mouse, an LCII with 10M RAM, and an LCIII ($15) with 20M RAM). While there are Apple knowledgeable folks paying attention, I also recently picked up a PowerBook 145. It's a really, really nice machine even though it doesn't have much RAM (4MB) or hard disk (40MB). I'm running 7.0.1 on it (7.5.3 used too much of both the RAM and the hard disk) and have been pleasantly surprised to find lots of software that runs on 7.0.1 (vi and lynx alone mean I can be productive doing documentation for some of my projects. Minix runs great, too), but I'd really like to stick a larger hard disk in the beast. The difficulty is that it uses a whacky 30 pin connector. Any hope of my finding a larger hard disk that'll work? I've not been an Apple person until recently so I don't know what was available for these machines. I have found a company that sells NiMH batteries for the beast, which will really help. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From mrdos at swbell.net Sat Jun 10 00:31:19 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible Message-ID: <001101bfd29d$1c68ec80$0a723ed8@compaq> There is an IBM System/38 with Tape Drive and 4 Disk Drives available in San Francisco California. If you are interested contact Rbatist@aol.com . If you get it, tell me all about it 'cause I REALLY wanted this one, but there isn't enough time to arrange for shipping. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000610/0c1d2096/attachment-0001.html From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 00:33:45 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Without getting into detail, which would require I refresh my memory about a > number of these examples, I'd point out that EPOXY is one that came about by > accident, although there are many others. I'd be surprised to find that > someone set out to build a semiconductor, knowing that the physical > chemistry of the substances involved, and that people, though they knew in > advance that such things could be done, simply hadn't bothered for one > reason or another. Likewise, I recently saw a PBS program that went into > some detail about the invention of RADAR. That certainly wasn't planned out > in advance. Nobel (according to another PBS program) didn't set about to > invent Nitrogycerin, nor, knowing about nitrogycerine, did he set out to > invent nitrocellulose, And, of course, there's the Post-It. That certainly > was an accident, resulting from a spill, according to the inventor, who was > interviewed on an NPR program. And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. - don ________O/_______ O\ From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 00:50:39 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > hard drive? Joe, I will send you a copy of Command.COM for the TI Professional Computer. Be advised, however, that those machines gag on off-the-shelf DOS versions. TI's was a bit off the beaten path. - don From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 01:06:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: References: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >While there are Apple knowledgeable folks paying attention, I also >recently picked up a PowerBook 145. It's a really, really nice machine >even though it doesn't have much RAM (4MB) or hard disk (40MB). I'm >running 7.0.1 on it (7.5.3 used too much of both the RAM and the >hard disk) and have been pleasantly surprised to find lots of software >that runs on 7.0.1 (vi and lynx alone mean I can be productive doing >documentation for some of my projects. Minix runs great, too), but I'd >really like to stick a larger hard disk in the beast. The difficulty >is that it uses a whacky 30 pin connector. Any hope of my finding a >larger hard disk that'll work? I've not been an Apple person until >recently so I don't know what was available for these machines. I have >found a company that sells NiMH batteries for the beast, which will >really help. > >Roger Ivie You might want to check out the following site. http://www.powerbookguy.com/ I've not done business with him, but he's been around for several years. He carries various old systems and bits. Personally I'd upgrade to System 7.1, but not higher. If you can find a copy of MS Word 5.1 it should give you a good Word Processor. Another site to check out would be http://lowendmac.com/index.shtml I love old Mac's, they're user friendly :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 00:11:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, > didn't you? Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if It's a damn PC! > the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and > if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result > in filesystem damage. Gee, really? Lighten up, R.D. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 00:14:44 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > carelessly, before he got it. Of course, carrying tools and a VOM to > surplus store, thrift shop, hamfest (radio rally), etc. could be > rather useful. The problem is that the person rescuing the equipment Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. > That said... Has anyone considered, or written, a head-parking FAQ for > classic computers, listing drives that need to have their heads > parked, and ways of doing this for various types of systems? No, we're waiting for you to write it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Jun 10 01:16:49 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > - don Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich carbon? carlos. From ernestls at home.com Sat Jun 10 01:40:13 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000201bfd2a6$bba637e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) Very nice catch. You know, you can hook that SE/30 into an NT network, onto which you can download files from the net, and copy to your IIgs' via the AppleTalk network. The joys of networking still make me giddy sometimes. NT has an AppleTalk protocol option that works very well. If you don't have an NT network at home, take it to work and see if you're NT admin will help you out. If he's anything like me, he would enjoy the challenge but I wouldn't mention it to the company heads. There's usually some sort of beer payments involved so go prepared, and not with Coors or Miller (barf!) How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. You're right, you do need some additional software, and information on how to do it. Fortunately, there are more knowledgeable people than me to get directions from on comp.sys.apple2. Rubywand in particular is very knowledgeable and friendly. Ernest From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Jun 10 07:26:12 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:13 PM > > Yeah, I heard a rumour that Apple offered GS/OS there, but I don't have > any way of transferring the software (unless an Apple II meister out there > would like to explain how ...) Can today's Macs format ProDOS volumes still? > If not, does anyone have GS/OS on disk, or willing to make copies? I would > gladly reimburse any inconvenience or we could come to an equitable > understanding ... :-) The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks well. GS/OS v6 (the latest) needs more memory than just the 1MB Apple memory card. If your IIgs only has about 1MB then do not bother with GS/OS. The previous owner may have been using them as IIe's (ProDOS 8) as I do with my IIgs. I can copy the disks for you, but you will have to send me a box of DS/DD disks as I do not wish to lose any of my little hoard. > By the way, about upgrading the SE/30. I want to upgrade the thing to > System 7.x but NOT if it will mean I can no longer run AppleShare File > Server. Can I download a System 7 friendly ASFS anywhere? This poor > thing doesn't even have MultiFinder. I do know that Apple has System 7 > for download, and I should hope a 68K version of ASFS ... ? I *think* that ASFS v2 can only run on System 6 while ASFS v3 can run on System 7. Both may take over the entire machine so using the Mac normally may be impossible. Make a backup before experimenting! My answer to the Apple II/Macintosh/MS-DOS data transfer problem is a Macintosh LC II with an Apple IIe card running System 7.1 and the extension that lets me read and write Apple II and MS-DOS disks. The extension cannot handle Win9x long file names but I do no need that. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 08:41:31 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. > > Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > Tang was developed by General Foods in the 1960's. It was an 'also ran' product until chosen by nasa as an alternative to plan water during space missions. NASA and the space race has developed technologies such as artificial satelites, which gives us 100's of TV channels, cell phones, and pagers... The bastards!!! clint PS all spelling errors are due to staying up too late to play Drakan (on my wizzy new Pentium III - 600!!! with an antique (1 year old design) motherboard :) From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 09:33:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <001101bfd2e8$e23a9940$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I don't know about how much sulphur is required, but quite a bit of carbon-black is required to make the stuff sufficiently rigid and durable to resist abrasion sufficiently for use in tires. Of course, that's not all it takes, but the process was set in motion by accident, and that was Don's point. The Latex laced with carbon-black, and perhaps a bit of sulphur, after lots of refinement, remained the preferred material for truck tires long after the discovery of synthetic (styrene-butadiene) rubbers suitable for normal automobile tires. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:16 AM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally > >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we > >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > > > - don > > Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required > for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich > carbon? > > carlos. > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 08:20:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <00bb01bfd2e2$029bf3c0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. I thought it was sulphur. Carbon black was added for light/uv resistance. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 08:24:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <00bc01bfd2e2$04b759b0$7764c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > >>For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone >>have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or >>vice versa? NE2 bulbs need 75-90v db supply to run. If your to use them use NE2H as they are brighter. >Actually in my PDP-8/x the use of white LEDs seems like it will be a win. Almost... White leds are biased toward blue white and incandesent lamps were white biased toward red. Also with incandesant the color of the lens cap was a factor. for examaple it could be red, amber, green even blue. Allison From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 09:46:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. > Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many > shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a bad idea when shopping for a car either. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 10:29:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 Message-ID: Greetings, Can certain list members who aren't sending standard ASCII text kindly fix their e-mail software so that they stop sending messagse that could possibly cause problems for some people using older systems? Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep from going out of use? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 10 10:35:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 04:17:15PM -0700 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000610113525.A10041@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Decoding an address >for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as >well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? 17777570 John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 10 10:40:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000 References: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). WD40 seems to work OK for lube while honing cylinders in car engines. But it doesn't have to hang around long for that... Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 10:34:15 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Is > > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > > disguised as a flaw? > > > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > security is just not that good. > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > has not improved. > > First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as > Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what > a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was > that it would provide information sharing between a small > number of trusted and trusting sites. > Yes, the ARPAnet (funded by DARPA - DEFENSE Advanced Research blah blah) was the prototype for a distributed communications system built to survive a nuclear attack. MILnet was built based on this prototype, and is in use today. It is mostly secure because there are only a few, tightly controlled, gateways to the Internet. NSFnet was the publically funded arm developed to facilitate communication between universities and a few corporations. For the most part individuals that had access to the Internet were college upperclassmen, who had a real reason to have access. My first experience was in the mid-80's, when more lowerclassmen were being granted access. This brought about the proliferation of ftp sites with pictures of nekked women, and the threat from NSF to disconnect any site (they could do that, and make it stick) engaged in such a frivolous waste of bandwidth. There still wasn't a great need for security because the only people having access were college educated individuals without a great design to destroy. Hacking into remote computers was done for the challenge and to discover new stuff. Then AOL came along :) With the selling of backbone connections by AT&T and others, and the proliferation of internet connections that NSF didn't control, NSFnet was soon overwhelmed and absorbed by the Internet. We now have an anarchy of competing ISPs tied into the Internet, and low cost access available to any monkey with a keyboard. There is now a real need to protect the backbone against malicious hackers, but no real way to do it. > However, from my own personal experience, I have never > succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > second time. > > regards, > -doug quebbeman > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 10:42:40 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks for the several helpful replies on this topic. > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 Clint Wolff wrote: > > I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will > > result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. > > Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. > > Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are > > shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. > > The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly > > short time after opening (couple days IIRC). > > Ah, I have read about that. > > IC manufacturers often specify a procedure to use when chips which may have > absorbed water are to be used. This involves baking at low temperature for a > while. > > Assuming that (for the purposes of removing absorbed water) one plastic IC > package is the same as the next, at which temperature and for how long should > this baking be done? > > The lowest setting on my oven is 70 degrees C. If that is low enough -- I > guess it should be as most ICs are specified for operation to 75 C or so -- I > may try putting the board in there for 12 or 24 hours, before turning the > temperature up to melt the solder. > > > -- Mark > Hi Mark, I don't know. I would be concerned about heating the entire chip up to a high enough temperature to melt the solder. You are almost certainly going to damage it. Most ICs are specified with specific temperature profiles to avoid damage, and they are only above the melting point of solder for a few seconds, followed by a fairly lengthy cooldown period. You need to quickly melt the solder, remove the IC, and let it cool down slowly. I don't think this is possibly in an oven. clint PS the offer stills stands to use the hot air equipment at my workplace. I regularly remove 208 pin SQFPs and occasionally reinstall them :) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 11:01:43 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at "Jun 10, 0 08:26:12 am" Message-ID: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> ::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). ::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). ::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks ::well. Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but I can get some. ::GS/OS v6 (the latest) needs more memory than just the 1MB Apple memory ::card. If your IIgs only has about 1MB then do not bother with GS/OS. The ::previous owner may have been using them as IIe's (ProDOS 8) as I do with my ::IIgs. Can ProDOS speak AppleTalk? That's the main reason for my interest in GS/OS. If ProDOS can access an AppleTalk server, then I don't really care about GS/OS. How much memory does v6 require? ::I *think* that ASFS v2 can only run on System 6 while ASFS v3 can run on ::System 7. Both may take over the entire machine so using the Mac normally ::may be impossible. Make a backup before experimenting! This is ASFS v2. Where can I get v3? (Yup, it does take over the whole machine :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but the doorjambs need dusting." ------------- From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 11:01:24 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one > riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course > there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd > be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few > months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent > ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. Have you tried a spray can of white lithium grease? It's not permanent, but it may last a while longer on your house's door hinge than WD40. Note: there appear to be two varieties, the thin stuff that doesn't last long on car door hinges, that's now sold by some auto parts stores, and the heavy thick stuff that one sprays on car door and hood hinges, etc. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 10 11:19:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 10, R. D. Davis wrote: > Can certain list members who aren't sending standard ASCII text kindly > fix their e-mail software so that they stop sending messagse that > could possibly cause problems for some people using older systems? > > Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in > computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages > instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to > be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, > then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very > much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain > old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep > from going out of use? I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or "non-windows" issue. -Dave McGuire From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 10 11:30:29 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: Vax-11 Instruction Set Videos References: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> <393679F7.77B16644@rain.org> Message-ID: <39426D25.F88A2800@rain.org> So far, there has been no interest. One last chance before I put them out on Ebay; anyone interested? If so, make what you consider a reasonable offer. My current plan is to put them on Ebay Sunday or Monday evening. Thanks. > This is a set of thirteen 3/4" tapes that cover the Vax-11 Instruction Set. > They are titled: > > Instruction Formats & Addressing Modes > Lesson 1, Lessons 2 & 3 > Integer, Logical, & Branch Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 & 4 > Floating Point Instructions > Variable Bit Field Instructions > Stack & Address Instructions > Procedure & Subroutine Instructions > Character String Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, lessons 3 & 4 > Special Instructions > Decimal String Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 - 5 > > I am selling these for John as he is doing what I should be doing: emptying > the house :).Again, these are on 3/4" tape, NOT VHS. $300 for the set + > shipping for about 27 pounds or so. From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 10:31:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:31 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > > Tang was developed by General Foods in the 1960's. It was an > 'also ran' product until chosen by nasa as an alternative to > plan water during space missions. Ok, so both of my examples have been shot down. So I'll propse two alternates: Food in a squeeze tube and suction toilets!! Two obviously very useful inventions. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 11:34:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002901bfd2f9$c2c763c0$0400c0a8@winbook> You can use WD40. However, you need to add some Molybdenum Disulfide, which is one of those compounds they put in grease in order to make it slippery. The WD40 will evaporate, or whatever it does, leaving the moly-disulfide behind to do the job. You'll have to buy about a pound at some industrial supply house, and it will cost about the 5% if what a 1-ounce bottle at one of the rare suppliers (I couldn't find one when I last bought a pound) that do have it would cost. Moly-disulfide is a dry powder, and a 1-pound quantity would be a hundred lifetime supplies. Once you have it, you'll find that it works for LOTS of lube applications. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about > >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). > > WD40 seems to work OK for lube while honing cylinders in car engines. > But it doesn't have to hang around long for that... > > Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one > riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course > there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd > be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few > months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent > ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 11:40:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 11:40:20 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <002f01bfd2fa$92571220$0400c0a8@winbook> A lot of the security problems would go away if they took the few individuals they actually catch abusing their net use privilege and dipped them, slowly, into a hot solder-pot during half-time of a major televised sporting event. If they dip a few extra guys, it's OK, since we're overpopulated by 10000% anyway. An apology would suffice and think of what it would do for the ratings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:34 AM Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Is > > > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > > > disguised as a flaw? > > > > > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > > security is just not that good. > > > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > > has not improved. > > > > First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as > > Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what > > a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was > > that it would provide information sharing between a small > > number of trusted and trusting sites. > > > > Yes, the ARPAnet (funded by DARPA - DEFENSE Advanced > Research blah blah) was the prototype for a distributed > communications system built to survive a nuclear attack. > MILnet was built based on this prototype, and is in use > today. It is mostly secure because there are only a few, > tightly controlled, gateways to the Internet. > > NSFnet was the publically funded arm developed to facilitate > communication between universities and a few corporations. > For the most part individuals that had access to the Internet > were college upperclassmen, who had a real reason to have > access. My first experience was in the mid-80's, when > more lowerclassmen were being granted access. This > brought about the proliferation of ftp sites with pictures > of nekked women, and the threat from NSF to disconnect > any site (they could do that, and make it stick) engaged > in such a frivolous waste of bandwidth. There still wasn't > a great need for security because the only people having > access were college educated individuals without a great > design to destroy. Hacking into remote computers was done > for the challenge and to discover new stuff. > > Then AOL came along :) With the selling of backbone > connections by AT&T and others, and the proliferation of > internet connections that NSF didn't control, NSFnet was > soon overwhelmed and absorbed by the Internet. We now > have an anarchy of competing ISPs tied into the Internet, > and low cost access available to any monkey with a keyboard. > There is now a real need to protect the backbone against > malicious hackers, but no real way to do it. > > > However, from my own personal experience, I have never > > succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to > > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > > second time. > > > > regards, > > -doug quebbeman > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 10:54:01 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. > > Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many > > shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. > > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > bad idea when shopping for a car either. R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being forcibly escorted out of the store. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 12:09:36 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 10, 0 12:40:10 pm" Message-ID: <200006101709.KAA07198@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy ::drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've ::seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal ::floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the ::SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. For the record, this one here is one FD, one HD, and so have all the SE/30s that I've seen. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The world only beats a path to your door when you're in the bathroom. ------ From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Jun 10 12:18:42 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <20000610172026.YJCD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > Date: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:01 PM > > Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to > another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do > the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but > I can get some. The SE/30 can handle 800K disks with no problems (unless someone changed the drive...). You will need Disk Copy 4.2 to create the disks. > Can ProDOS speak AppleTalk? That's the main reason for my interest in > GS/OS. If ProDOS can access an AppleTalk server, then I don't really care > about GS/OS. How much memory does v6 require? I have an Apple II Workstation Card that will let my Apple IIe, using ProDOS 8, talk to ASFS. It is possible, but I have not done it yet myself. Someday I will set up an AppleShare server for my Apple IIs but I simply have not done it yet. > This is ASFS v2. Where can I get v3? (Yup, it does take over the whole > machine :-) See the following site for information on ASFS v3: http://lowendmac.com/tech/appleshare3.shtml. I do not know where to get it. I just missed it once on Usenet; by the time I contacted the owner it was already gone. It had version 2 and 3 with all the disks and manuals, too. For more help, try Usenet at comp.sys.apple2. That's where I learned most of what I know about networking Apple IIs. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Jun 10 12:39:09 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: R.D. Davis wrote: > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > bad idea when shopping for a car either. Sellam Ismail replied: < R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being forcibly escorted out of the store. > Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally, store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something. You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though. Glen 0/0 From g at kurico.com Sat Jun 10 12:53:28 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: References: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <39423A48.4968.4E3D731@localhost> > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. Pretty uncommon. The hd normally lives where the bottom floppy would go, so if yours is dual floppy + hd, then I'd think that the hd is third party and mounted towards the back of the unit under the crt? George From red at bears.org Sat Jun 10 13:32:20 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000610172026.YJCD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > The SE/30 can handle 800K disks with no problems (unless someone changed > the drive...). You will need Disk Copy 4.2 to create the disks. I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write the older GCR-type disks. I forget now the list of which Macs can and cannot do this, but ISTR the SE/30 was very close to being the last, if not itself the last. I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. ok r. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 11:40:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <003501bfd304$2e536350$7764c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to >do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or >"non-windows" issue. It's not that either. It's lazy or just plain lack of knowledge. outlook express and be told to use plain text (not rtf or html) and far as I know I'm doing just that from a NT4 system. It annoying to me as a NT/OE user as RTF and html will alter termprorary settings for fonts and all when I don't want that all due to someone who does not know. Allison From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 13:48:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally > >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we > >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > > > - don > > Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required > for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich > carbon? > > carlos. Nope, I was! - don From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 14:39:52 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at "Jun 10, 0 02:32:20 pm" Message-ID: <200006101939.MAA10102@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from ::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this on the Apple FTP site? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. ------------------ From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 14:49:25 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > "non-windows" issue. Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system issue. Thanks for the explanation. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From vonhagen at vonhagen.org Sat Jun 10 15:04:36 2000 From: vonhagen at vonhagen.org (William von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer and "Smart Shopping" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000610153840.00e0e880@vonhagen.org> I'll have to add my voice to the geek chorus here ;-) Buying random hardware out of a mountain of spares at a hamfest is one thing, but getting a used S-100 FOOBAR at the local Red, White, and Blue is another. No store owner with any notion of what liability means is going to let some random come in and start attaching probes to a motherboard even if the store owner should happen to understand the difference between AC, DC, and Metallica ;-), let alone to a power supply or monitor. I've definitely bought used systems over the years that I've said "I should have looked" when I got them home and found blown caps, melted wires, skunked power supplies, and even dead rodents inside. Once I get them home, I always open them up before powering them on. You hopefully only experience the "OhNo" second once in your collecting career (the first second after you turn something on, it smokes, and you think "Oh no.") My general philosophy for such things is "parts is parts." I've frequently bought pieces of systems or docs and software for systems I didn't even own - eventually, when I find another one or the rest of one, I'll be that much closer to a working system. It'd be nice to be able to always know what you're buying. When I bought my wife our first Jaguar (er, the car, not the game system), how was I to know that one of the gas tanks was rusty and they were both welded inside the body? I wasn't happy then, but now it seems funny. Much like buying our first house - the owners had all of these hardcore born-again signs all through the house. Would they lie about things? Absolutely. Was I irritated then? Definitely. Do I still care now? Definitely not. As I read back over this, maybe I'm just advertising the fact that I'm not a smart shopper. Having confessed, does anyone have any 1980s vintage workstations they're looking to get rid of? I would still give my eyeteeth for a WCW or Hitec workstation, and could always use more NBI U!s or ISIs. Any condition is OK (and I think you see that I mean that!). I'll be glad to pay shipping from almost anywhere. Bill t 01:39 PM 6/10/00 -0400, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: >R.D. Davis wrote: > > > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > > bad idea when shopping for a car either. > >Sellam Ismail replied: > >< R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer > electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and > meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being > forcibly escorted out of the store. > > >Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to >perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd >assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them >to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally, >store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make >sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something. > >You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though. > >Glen >0/0 From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 10 15:09:20 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question Message-ID: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Hi, I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, but there's a missing button battery of some kind. Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery I should use (the circular battery)? thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 15:43:08 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 10, 0 03:49:25 pm" Message-ID: <200006102043.NAA12732@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to ::> do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or ::> "non-windows" issue. :: ::Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system ::issue. Thanks for the explanation. iN THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISCUSSION, i SUBMIT THAT ALL MAIL SHOULD ACTUALLY BE IN petascii, AS BEFITS A CLASSIC COMPUTING FORUM. tHIS PARTICULAR MESSAGE SHOULD HOPEFULLY SET AN EXAMPLE. -- --------------------------- PERSONAL PAGE: HTTP://WWW.ARMORY.COM/%7eSPECTRE/ -- cAMERON kAISER * pOINT lOMA nAZARENE uNIVERSITY * CKAISER@PTLOMA.EDU -- i DO NOT FEAR COMPUTERS. i FEAR THE LACK OF THEM. -- iSAAC aSIMOV ---------- From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 10 15:44:26 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: GRiDCase 3 price question. Message-ID: <20000610204426.24289.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anybody know what the asking price for a GRiDCase 3 is? I would love to ad this to my collection one of these days. A bit of trivia: If anybody has seen the *long* version of the movie "Aliens" , the computers that the marines use to control the motion controlled smart guns are GRiDCases, I'm not sure which model. My guess is that they are GRiDCase 3's. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 15:45:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at "Jun 10, 0 08:26:12 am" Message-ID: >::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). >::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). >::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks >::well. > >Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to >another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do >the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but >I can get some. I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lbutzel at home.com Sat Jun 10 15:52:18 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question References: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Stan - I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the backup power source. Leo Butzel Seattle,WA lbutzel@home.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stan Sieler To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:09 PM Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question > Hi, > > I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, > no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see > that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, > but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > > Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery > I should use (the circular battery)? > > thanks! > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 16:06:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: >> I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something >> before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect >> sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some >> random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a >> bad idea when shopping for a car either. > >R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer >electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and >meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being >forcibly escorted out of the store. Lets face it, he's got to be in a different reality than the rest of us! I know of exactly one 'dealer' who this kind of behavior is acceptable with, of course in his case, he's likely to be the one tearing the stuff open to see what's in it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Jun 10 16:26:41 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <200006102043.NAA12732@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jun 10, 2000 01:43:08 pm" Message-ID: <200006102126.QAA05294@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > ::> I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > ::> do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > ::> "non-windows" issue. > :: > ::Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > ::issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > iN THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISCUSSION, i SUBMIT THAT ALL MAIL SHOULD > ACTUALLY BE IN petascii, AS BEFITS A CLASSIC COMPUTING FORUM. > tHIS PARTICULAR MESSAGE SHOULD HOPEFULLY SET AN EXAMPLE. > I ^C^A^N^N^O^T ^U^N^D^E^R^S^T^A^N^D ^W^H^A^T ^Y^O^U ^A^R^E ^T^R^Y^I^N^G ^T^O ^S^A^Y. C^A^N ^Y^O^U ^R^E^S^E^N^D ^T^H^E ^M^E^S^S^A^G^E ^U^S^I^N^G ^P^R^O^P^E^R C^O^N^T^R^O^L D^A^T^A C^O^R^P^O^R^A^T^I^O^N (CDC) ASCII? T^H^A^N^K ^Y^O^U. L^A^W^R^E^N^C^E L^EM^A^Y !RUTGERS!UMN-CS!LEMAY From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 10 16:56:54 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <39425736.28479.F81314C@localhost> Hi, > I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the > backup power source. thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 17:00:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 References: Message-ID: <001901bfd327$3dad0e00$0400c0a8@winbook> That reduces almost trivially to a convenience versus self-flagellation issue. After years of fiddling with pine and the like, whichever happened to be on the system to which I had shell access, I'm glad there's a convenient way to utilize the net. Without getting into the Windows versus "other" debate, I must say it's a simple matter of using what's easy and convenient as opposed to something not so easy and not so convenient. Neither one does exactly what I want it to do, but one is close enough while the other isn't. Apparently lots of others feel the same way, though I imagine most Windows users have no other experience on the net. I'd say it's easy enough for most folks to turn off the fancier-than-plain-old-text mode and resort to simple text transmission. Occasionally, however, since I do communicate with people who like to use HTML, I sometimes forget and leave the mode in whichever state it was when I answered the previous mail. Perhaps others have made that mistake as well. The inconvenience of being incompatible with the HTML when I'm using a CP/M system (which I certainly don't do on the net) is a price one pays for using an old dog that can't seem to learn new tricks. Almost any 15-year-old long obsolete SUN box can do it. If I want to use my old 8-bitter to do this, inconvenient or not, it's my choice, don't you think? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 > On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 10 17:01:15 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) References: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14658.47787.664656.260982@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 10, R. D. Davis wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. Well, pretty much, yes. -Dave McGuire From bwit at pobox.com Sat Jun 10 17:03:42 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000610170317.00a8d260@mail.ruffboy.com> DL2032 lithium. At 01:09 PM 6/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, >no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see >that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, >but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > >Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery >I should use (the circular battery)? > >thanks! > > >Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com >www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Withers Do or do not, there is no try. bwit@pobox.com Yoda. http://www.ruffboy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- Version 3.1 http://www.geekcode.com GCS d- s: a+ C++ UO++ P L++ E--- W++ N++ o-- w++ O M V- PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5 X++ r* tv+ b++ DI++ D--- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++ ----- END GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- From owad at applefritter.com Sat Jun 10 19:04:28 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006110007.RAA18262@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from >::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. > >Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this >on the Apple FTP site? ftp://ftp.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English- North_American/Macintosh/Utilities/Disk_Copy/Disk_Copy_4.2.sea.hqx Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From lkinzer at sciti.com Sat Jun 10 21:21:20 2000 From: lkinzer at sciti.com (Lowell Kinzer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> References: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000610182056.00b00390@popmail.ltsp.com> Stan, The technical specifications for the various Newton models are still available on the Apple web site. The Newton support page starts here: http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n26179 Best regards, Lowell Kinzer lkinzer@sciti.com At 12:52 PM 6/10/00, Leo Butzel wrote: >Stan - > >I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the >backup power source. > >Leo Butzel >Seattle,WA >lbutzel@home.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Stan Sieler >To: >Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:09 PM >Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question > > > > Hi, > > > > I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, > > no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see > > that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, > > but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > > > > Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery > > I should use (the circular battery)? > > > > thanks! > > > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 20:34:42 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110007.RAA18262@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from Tom Owad at "Jun 10, 0 08:04:28 pm" Message-ID: <200006110134.SAA05910@oa.ptloma.edu> Thanks, Tom and especially John L., who sent me the actual file. Will it work on System 6? I'm going to commandeer my friend's Mac tomorrow and do all the file and disk work. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Room service? Send up a bigger room. -- Groucho Marx ----------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 20:39:09 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 10, 0 01:45:58 pm" Message-ID: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> ::>::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). ::>::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). ::>::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks ::>::well. ::> ::>Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to ::>another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do ::>the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but ::>I can get some. :: ::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will the extension work on System 6? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From red at bears.org Sat Jun 10 20:44:43 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006101939.MAA10102@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from > ::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. > > Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this > on the Apple FTP site? Yes, though 4.2 is several revisions behind. If Apple's FTP site doesn't have 4.2 availble, and the current software won't do the job (it at least runs on an SE/30), let me know and I may have a copy archived somewhere. ok r. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 20:57:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 10, 0 01:45:58 pm" Message-ID: >::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. > >I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to >format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will >the extension work on System 6? Um, let me change that statement to I've used mine running System 7.1 to do it. I guess that could make a difference.... :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Jun 10 22:17:06 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000b01bfd353$85434d70$013da8c0@Corellian> You don't format the disk before you make a copy with Diskcopy. Diskcopy accepts what is known as an "image file". After loading the image file, you can insert a floppy and it will make a disk copy from that image, in whatever "format" the image was. After starting Diskcopy, if you insert a foreign diskette (such as when I put a LisaTest diskette into the drive), the Mac may complain that it is not a Macintosh disk, but you can select to "mount" it anyway. In any case, you can copy that disk, or make a copy onto it, or make a hard drive file image from from it. The Mac "superdrive" should handle both 800K and 1.44 diskettes (although I've only used Diskcopy to make a copy of an image on an external 800K drive just to be safe). This was all done on a Mac IIsi with 16mb and running system 7.5. John jlewczyk@his.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > > > ::>::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX > or MacBin). > ::>::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if > they can at all). > ::>::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle > the 1.44MB disks > ::>::well. > ::> > ::>Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to > ::>another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be > able to do > ::>the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD > disks here, but > ::>I can get some. > :: > ::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine > to do it. > > I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to > format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will > the extension work on System 6? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Jun 11 00:23:27 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: FW: Last chance for tapes In-Reply-To: <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: For those of us that have QIC tape drives, this fellow has a bunch of DC6525 tapes, most of them still in their shrink wrap. Please contact him directly if interested. -=-=- -=-=- In article <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net>, you say... > Subject: Last chance for tapes > From: Jack LaBrecque > Reply-To: JITB@postoffice.worldnet.att.net > Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr, comp.sys.att, comp.periphs.scsi > > SONY QD6525N (Same as DC6525 from 3M) & 3M DDS-90 4mm. I have 50-100 of > each. Most are brand new and still in wrappers. Make me an offer or > they go to the dump. > > -- > Semper Fi > > Jack L > JITB's Home Page: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ > JITB's USMC Page: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/usmc/usmc.htm > PFC Edward A. Peterson: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ed/pete.htm > > -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (http://www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin [a-t] bluefeathertech {d=o=t} com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Jun 11 10:51:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006111551.IAA11828@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, thanks to a clever guy on c.s.a2, I got the IIgs to network boot. It involved going into the Control Panel, setting slot 2 to AppleTalk, and setting the startup slot to AppleTalk. It magically found Steve, the Mac, and was able to connect and boot ProDOS 8. BASIC.SYSTEM came up without a hitch, and I was able to use the Mac as a fileshare without problem. Neat! Thanks for all the help, folks! It had some trouble booting GS/OS from the Mac, however. It showed the "Welcome to the IIgs" box, and got about half-way through (at the bottom, an AppleTalk share icon eventually showed up), but then abruptly bombed out and dropped back to the AppleShare client. GS/OS then wouldn't come up at all until I rebooted the machine. Corrupt copy or not enough memory? Someone on c.s.a2 said it should at least boot with 1MB, even if it couldn't run much. Later today I'm going to build those GS/OS disks and see if starting it up from the floppy drive makes any difference. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words - From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 11 12:03:06 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news Message-ID: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Well just got back from my two weeks in Houston and had a few great finds and a little bad luck. The good news is I found a number of good finds, here's a short list as some of the items are not 10 years old yet. 1. Royal TA model F1 computer, ext. floppy drive, and user's manual all for $6 2. Amiga 1040 3. Percom ext. floppy drive unit 4. 15 - Mac keyboards, no cables but they were free for the taking. 5. Team concepts printer 6. NEC MultiSpin 6X cdrom reader 7. Socrates mousesystem with tablet and mouse 8. Epson Equity LT-286e laptop not working but was also free. 9. Scan-It by digital media labs for the Mac, $8 bucks at flea market 10. Sega 3D adapter 11. Many manuals and books 12. HP 98720A 13. Amiga 1000 14. Suncom animation station computergraphics sensor pad 15. Atrai printer adapter for the 800 The list is much longer but the other items do not meet the 10 year rule. The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. John Keys From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 11 12:36:33 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: Good News/Bad news (John R. Keys Jr.) References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. Wow, that *sucks*. Sounds like somebody needs some broken fingers. Sorry to hear that, man. -Dave McGuire From retro at retrobits.com Sun Jun 11 13:00:40 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> John, Congrats on the good finds! Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step up to the loss. My humble opinion. - Earl > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > John Keys > From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Jun 10 19:59:46 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 References: Message-ID: <026e01bfd3d5$eee8eb40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Even with windows I hate the non-ascii layout Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:49 PM Subject: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 > On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From dann at greycat.com Sun Jun 11 13:22:24 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:36:33PM -0400 References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000611112224.A9086@greycat.com> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:36:33PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > Wow, that *sucks*. Sounds like somebody needs some broken fingers. > Sorry to hear that, man. Indeed! IANAL, but that strikes me as an extremely actionable offense: "I paid for it." They accepted it, There are implied contracts here. If that had happened to me, I would have left a smoking crater, figuratively speaking, where that store used to be. Some things shouldn't be tolerated. I'd consult a lawyer. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:02:47 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <3943E257.B1E88EE3@roanoke.infi.net> Sounds like the store DID "step up to the loss", they cut the price on another piece [amount unspecified] to compensate for the vandalism to the System/36......Let's not beat a dead horse here! Nice find BTW. Craig Earl Evans wrote: > > John, > > Congrats on the good finds! > > Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. > I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously > wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It > might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible > (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The > "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this > way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) > probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. > > A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If > not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. > > Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership > needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all > the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your > responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. > > I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step > up to the loss. My humble opinion. > > - Earl > > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > John Keys > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:20:06 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA Message-ID: <3943E666.BDCE51CF@roanoke.infi.net> I'm hoping that someone knows something about some of this stuff and/or can use some of it. Not free but really reasonable IF you can come to Roanoke, VA and load it up. HP 3000 Series III mainframe [a couple of racks worth, but some vandal hauled ALL the cards to a recycler prior to my finding it] HP 3000 system 30 cute little R2D2 sized mainframe [no cards] HP Tape Drives 7970 several variations HP disk drives, big and heavy 7920's & 25's HP keyboards & terminals 2640,2645, maybe some 2649's non HP stuff: CDC PA5N1 harddrives--also heavy! Bunch of NCR minis running VRX or VRX/E, also got a couple of controlers and a PS or two from the same series pile of TRS-80 series III Not cheap but lots of them: HP 1000 E&F series minis HP 21MX series minis HP "A" series minis This is a serious size pile--probably 2-3 tons of stuff in really good condition. My storage runneth over. Craig From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:24:04 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA Message-ID: <3943E754.EB5669B5@roanoke.infi.net> Forgot to include the URL for some pix of this junk. http://mh106.infi.net/~ip500/HPcomputers/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 11 16:29:47 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <001301bfd3ec$2c154fc0$59711fd1@default> No there was no warning before I left it and the manger told me this kind of thing happens alot there and they try not to let people leave items there. Had I been told this I would have had the lock it up the cage they keep the high dollar items in. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Good News/Bad news > > John, > > Congrats on the good finds! > > Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. > I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously > wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It > might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible > (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The > "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this > way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) > probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. > > A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If > not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. > > Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership > needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all > the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your > responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. > > I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step > up to the loss. My humble opinion. > > - Earl > > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > John Keys > > > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 11 18:12:50 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000611191250.0110abc4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:03 PM 6/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a >thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick >it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok >and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by >taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. >I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but >they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I >purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac >145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to >settle my problem. I bet that the store manager has an idea about who could have done this. Most likely, someone asked about the item after you left, he was told that the item was taken and decided that you would not have it either. Unfortunately, there are many people like that. carlos. From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 11 18:25:34 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA In-Reply-To: <3943E754.EB5669B5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000611192534.006c2408@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Wow, this brings back memories... the HP3000 series III was the first computer I ever touched; I was 13 at the time. My first BASIC program was the quadratic formula. I had to learn to use IF the first time that b^2-4ac turned out to be negative, something that I had not considered :-) . carlos. At 03:24 PM 6/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >Forgot to include the URL for some pix of this junk. >http://mh106.infi.net/~ip500/HPcomputers/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 11 18:41:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000611234157.31223.qmail@brouhaha.com> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > the older GCR-type disks. Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems whatsoever. As does my SE/30. From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 11 18:55:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor or keyboard for it? Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? BTW, Does anyone have any stories of favorite PDP-8 or Decmate hacks, and, has anyone here used a DECmate for any music or sound synthesis applications? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 11 20:58:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 07:55:58PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000611215824.A13332@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 07:55:58PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? I doubt it, with the standard slushware anyway. Maybe if you wrote your own. >Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? More or less -- the DECmate 2/3/3+ port of OS/8 is called OS/278. You can get raw disk images from ftp.dbit.com, under pub/pdp8/images/block. These are raw images in PDP-11 sector order, not Teledisk images, they can be written using PUTR.COM on a PC, or using whatever's handy on a Pro or MicroPDP-11 or MicroVAX. John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 11 20:18:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:32 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: <013701bfd417$14f8f6e0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? Running wps278, no! that software talks to the console at the default console device addresses. >Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? Yes, specifically OS278 version. Again the tube and keyboard are required. Why? the default console is devices 03/04 and those ahve been assigned via hardware to the CRT/keyboard with slushware support. Slushware is the code loaded into the alternate memory (Control pannel ram) to do "special tasks". To run it to say the printer or comm port you have to use OS278 and write a new console driver and bind the two. To do that you'd need a PDP-8 or a PDP-8 emulator. >BTW, Does anyone have any stories of favorite PDP-8 or Decmate hacks, >and, has anyone here used a DECmate for any music or sound synthesis >applications? In theory a DECmate could do music... the problem is interfacing it as there is no "bus" to grab that is easily available. the problem is one of the fully integrated system and trying to add/interface to it beyond the available design. It could be done but it would not be easy. It would be good to go to the PDP-8 FAQ and read the treatise on why a DECMATE is not a PDP-8, (almost does count!). Allison From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Jun 12 00:03:50 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 Message-ID: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Hey teen gang, Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can avoid it. (P.S. - Plus, technically I'm kinda grey on whether the license I have represents a "legitimate transfer of right to use" or not. But since Ultrix is officially a deader-than-dead end-of-lifed "These aren't the droids you're looking for; why don't you talk to our nice Tru64 salespeople?" type of software, I don't really care :) I just want to install the damn thing on a DECstation 5000/200) (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of mortal men.) (P.P.P.S ...Or women.) -Seth From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 01:28:45 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 In-Reply-To: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com>; from sethm@loomcom.com on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 10:03:50PM -0700 References: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20000612012845.R29500@mrbill.net> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 10:03:50PM -0700, sjm wrote: > Hey teen gang, > Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like > to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, > and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can > avoid it. > (P.S. - Plus, technically I'm kinda grey on whether the license I > have represents a "legitimate transfer of right to use" or not. > But since Ultrix is officially a deader-than-dead end-of-lifed > "These aren't the droids you're looking for; why don't you talk to > our nice Tru64 salespeople?" type of software, I don't really care :) > I just want to install the damn thing on a DECstation 5000/200) > (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. > But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of > mortal men.) > (P.P.P.S ...Or women.) > -Seth I've got a complete set of Ultrix 4.4 for DECstation (RISC) on TK50 tape, if anybody's interested in swapping VAX/VMS stuff for it.... Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 02:25:25 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? Message-ID: <20000612022525.U29500@mrbill.net> Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Mon Jun 12 12:39:10 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? Message-ID: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> In my experience great care is necessary with TK50 tapes.We bought a bunch original DEC tapes recently, but it was necessary to clean heads before reading every time. Wim ---------- > From: Bill Bradford > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: source for cheap TK50s? > Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 12:25 AM > > Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon Jun 12 06:41:17 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? References: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Sounds like the oxide is crapped out and starting to come off [on your heads!]. I ran across the same thing with a big box of HP cassettes--only about 6 out of 50 or so were even remotely usable [and they had been stored in the original storage boxes in reasonable environmental conditions for the last 20 years]. Doesn't bode well for the future of tape media. Craig W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > > In my experience great care is necessary with TK50 tapes.We bought a bunch > original DEC tapes recently, but it was necessary to clean heads before > reading every time. > > Wim > > ---------- > > From: Bill Bradford > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: source for cheap TK50s? > > Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 12:25 AM > > > > Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... > > > > Bill > > > > -- > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Jun 12 07:47:39 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Nostalgic Technophile/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: HP Sales literature available for postage. References: <4.3.0.20000324095136.0200b7a0@pc> Message-ID: <005201bfd46c$6b8e2f20$5081b7d1@kstumpf> I have copies of both internal and customer sales material about HP printers and other HP gear from the late 1980s and early 1990s. It weighs about 10lb. Please reply directly to me. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile - Unusual Systems www.nostalgictechnophile.com - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 08:39:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADEA@TEGNTSERVER> Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke maybe 2 or 3? -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Lane [mailto:kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 1:23 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: FW: Last chance for tapes > > > For those of us that have QIC tape drives, this fellow > has a bunch > of DC6525 tapes, most of them still in their shrink wrap. > > Please contact him directly if interested. > > -=-=- -=-=- > > In article <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net>, you say... > > > Subject: Last chance for tapes > > From: Jack LaBrecque > > Reply-To: JITB@postoffice.worldnet.att.net > > Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr, comp.sys.att, comp.periphs.scsi > > > > SONY QD6525N (Same as DC6525 from 3M) & 3M DDS-90 4mm. I > have 50-100 of > > each. Most are brand new and still in wrappers. Make me > an offer or > > they go to the dump. > > > > -- > > Semper Fi > > > > Jack L > > JITB's Home Page: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ > > JITB's USMC Page: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/usmc/usmc.htm > > PFC Edward A. Peterson: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ed/pete.htm > > > > > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies (http://www.bluefeathertech.com) > kyrrin [a-t] bluefeathertech {d=o=t} com > "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be > superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk) > From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Jun 12 08:41:03 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? That depends on what you mean by "possible". The DECmate II and (I presume, although I've not played with one) the III use Harris I/O support chips. The first thing you need to do to these chips after power-on is to configure their address. Consequently, there's a table of IOTs executed by the processor straight out of reset to get the job done. It should be possible to switch the addresses configured for the console port and the printer port in that table. The effect would be that the printer port would now be the console port and the terminal emulation in the slushware would now run the printer port. No, I've not tried this. Furthermore, every time I mention the possibility some pretty knowledgeable folks usually tell me it won't work. I don't see why it won't work. BTW, does anyone have a good archive of Lasner's rantings? We really need a good Lasner rantings archive somewhere on the net. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 12 08:58:52 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Reading old floppies In-Reply-To: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> References: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: mann@pa.dec.com (Tim Mann) To: trs80@cs.ubc.ca cc: m.krause@tu-harburg.de, jens@siliconsonic.de, norb@kcbbs.gen.nz, kim@breeze.org Subject: Reading old floppies with Catweasel Here's something that should be of interest to folks who have old TRS-80 disks they'd like to read but are having trouble doing it with modern hardware. Actually, it could be of interest to folks with disks from obscure old CP/M systems and the like too. A small company in Germany makes a specialized PC ISA card that, with the proper software, allows any kind of floppy disk to be read (and maybe written, too). The company is called Individual Computers, and the card is called the Catweasel ISA. There are also Amiga versions. See the following URLs for information on the card and how to order one: http://www.jschoenfeld.com/, and http://members.tripod.com/~apd2/catweasl.htm. Catweasel cards were in short supply for a while, and I had some trouble getting a working unit, but I have one now. I've just written a program for it that can copy any TRS-80 disk (in fact, any disk written by a WD177x/179x floppy disk controller, or by any PC floppy disk controller) to the DMK format that's used by David Keil's TRS-80 emulator for MS-DOS and by my TRS-80 emulator (xtrs) for Unix. The program auto-detects FM (single density) vs. MFM (double or high density) encoding, even on disks that have some sectors of each on the same track, like dual-boot Model I/III disks. My program (called cw2dmk, at least for now) works both on Linux and on MS-DOS or Windows 95/98, and I'll be releasing it in source code form after I've cleaned it up a little more. It's partly based on the Catweasel driver for Linux (see http://www.tu-harburg.de/~semk2104/cwfloppy/) written by Michael Krause. His driver works only with MS-DOS and Amiga formats, and only in double or high density, but it's nice because it lets Linux treat the disks as having real file systems on them that the kernel supports. My program only lets you make a disk image that works with an emulator. The original driver is GPL'ed, so my program will be too. I've already used the program to copy about 50 single density and "copy protected" TRS-80 disks that I got from Kim Watt to DMK format, and they all seem to work on xtrs. Even weird stuff like original TRSDOS 2.x single density disks with FA data address marks on the directory (which even PC's that can otherwise handle single density don't seem to be able to read), and games that do a WD17xx Read Track command and look for specific data in the gaps as part of their copy protection, were easy to read and the images work on xtrs. I haven't tried the images on David Keil's emulator yet, but I don't expect problems -- maybe a few minor ones with games that do especially strange things with the floppy disk controller. I did have to fix a couple of minor emulation inaccuracies (well, bugs) in xtrs to make a couple of the games boot. 8" disks should even work, though I haven't plugged in my 8" drive yet. I had no problems reading a 5.25" high density (1.2MB) disk, which looks identical to 8" double density at the controller interface, so I think true 8" will probably work on the first try. The program seems to work well already, but there are two things I'd still like to add: (1) Automatically detecting the type of drive you're using and guessing the number of tracks (35, 40, or 80) and number of sides on the media -- right now you have to tell the program this using command-line options, and (2) Writing the older .DSK (or JV3) format that Matthew Reed and Jeff Vavasour's TRS-80 emulators require, when the disk is not so "protected" that it can't be represented in that format. Those shouldn't be too hard once I get my next burst of energy. I'm hoping a few other TRS-80 folks will buy Catweasel cards now that this program is available. I don't get a commission or anything. :-) If you do (or are thinking about it) and want a copy of cw2dmk before I get around to putting it up on my Web page, let me know. Tim Mann tim.mann@compaq.com http://www.tim-mann.org Compaq Computer Corporation, Systems Research Center, Palo Alto, CA Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Jun 12 09:09:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADEA@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000612070925.00970890@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:39 12-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: >Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke >maybe 2 or 3? Contact the author of the original message and ask. I merely forwarded what I found on Usenet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 09:26:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The DECmate II and (I presume, although I've not played with one) the III > use Harris I/O support chips. The first thing you need to do to these > chips after power-on is to configure their address. Consequently, there's > a table of IOTs executed by the processor straight out of reset to get > the job done. It should be possible to switch the addresses configured True. > for the console port and the printer port in that table. The effect would > be that the printer port would now be the console port and the terminal > emulation in the slushware would now run the printer port. Will not work. > No, I've not tried this. Furthermore, every time I mention the possibility > some pretty knowledgeable folks usually tell me it won't work. I don't > see why it won't work. Simple, the slushware does the port to 5027based video and keycodes to ascii translations and terminal emulation. You would not want that inbetween a nominal serial port and the system while using a terminal. To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console requests are mapped to another port. the problem is that the 03/04 ports do not support the full set of standard IOTs for TTY and interrupts. the rest of the ports are even less like standard PDP-8 IO so you would at a minimum be designing a full set of slushware and IOTs. That is the crux of the Lasner ravings as to why a DECmate is not a PDP-8. It is a system that is largely pdp-8 in character because of a micro that executes most PDP-8 opcodes. However there is a holw class of PDP-8 things a decmate can't due to lack of buss access and the ability to interface to real PDP-8 peripherals (not easy to do threy cycle databreak using the CMOS CPU as a coopertive element). check UU.SE and also www.dbit.com the nickles directory. Allison From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Jun 12 09:47:36 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes References: <3.0.5.32.20000612070925.00970890@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <3944F808.D65FAE40@arrl.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > At 09:39 12-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: > > >Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke > >maybe 2 or 3? > > Contact the author of the original message and ask. I merely forwarded > what I found on Usenet. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies I've tried to contact the guy but no response. Someone may have already bought the lot. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Jun 12 09:55:43 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Hi: I'm not particularly good at C, so I'm trying to learn more as I add tape image support to Claus Guiloi's Altair Emulator. Anyway, I have a "C pointers" question regarding copying the tape bits to the emulator memory. Here's some pseudo code... //delcared in i8080.c MEMSIZE is virtual memory size in bytes uchar Mem [MEMSIZE]; BOOL ReadTape (PSTR pstrFileName) PSTR pstrBuffer ; //buffer for fread command // make sure the file exists //allocate memory to fit tape image length and load file //determine file type (BIN or HEX) //if BIN, make sure that the image fits into the emulator memory size if (iLength > MEMSIZE){ OkMessage (hWnd, "Program too big to fit in memory!", szTitleName) ; return FALSE; } // for binary, so get load address from user and copy to memory array addr=MsgBox("Enter load address"); //obviously wrong. but it's only pseudo code // make sure that (load address + file size) <=65535 // copy binary image to the emulator memory for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; return 0; This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? Thanks again for the help. Rich From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 10:03:09 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> > However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in > the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a > space program (regardless of the motivations for pursuing space). By and > large "mainstream" entities (ie business, banking, etc) do not "develop" > technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of computers, fax machines (which > were in vented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some > other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't > change their ways. I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote location predated the deployment of electricity. -dq From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 10:13:31 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 12 10:17:15 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Finds in Pittsburgh, PA Message-ID: For anyone local (or who can get here relatively easily) and would be interested in this .... I stopped by the Goodwill Computer Store over the weekend, and saw that they have a bunch (maybe two dozen) SPARCstation IPC's and IPX's, for which they are asking $25.00/each. The people in the store didn't know anything about their configurations (as they said, "We're pretty clueless about those boxes"....), so I don't know if they come with any memory or disk, and I didn't bother trying to open any of them up. Some appear to have graphics accelerators, though (based on looking at occupied Sbus slots on the back of the machine). There are also a couple of SPARCstation 1+ and SPARCstation 2 machines, in about the same price range, plus a about half a dozen HP/Apollo Series 700 machines for which they are asking $37.50. None of these machines appear to include any keyboards or mice. There are a few Sun monitors on the shelf, but they are being sold separately. To the best of my knowledge, the store does not ship, so you'd have to physically visit there to make a purchase. I don't know who you'd talk to there if you wanted to work out a "special deal" of some kind (e.g., purchasing several machines at once, for a lower price), since the day-to-day store staff do not have the authority to renegotiate prices. --Pat. From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 10:18:58 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com> > // copy binary image to the emulator memory > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > return 0; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented > by an array > of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. > My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? You could potentially get weird behavior that way. Some compilers do strange things converting signed to unsigned values. Try this instead: Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); or even: Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; for clarity. Note, I tend to go overboard with parens, I've seen a number of compilers and other programs which didn't do operator precedence correctly. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 12 10:29:19 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Fax machines [WAS: Re: In defense of NASA ...] Message-ID: <00bb01bfd482$fac03240$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights >> This is true of computers, fax machines (which >> were invented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some >> other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't >> change their ways. > >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >location predated the deployment of electricity. > >-dq > Unless there is "prior art" that I'm unaware of, Doug is off by a century. See http://www.thg.org.uk/articles.htm#FACSIMILE for a brief history of the development of fax technology. Cheers, Mark. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Jun 12 10:37:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <20000612153722.16642.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in > > the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a > > space program...large "mainstream" entities... do not "develop" > > technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of... fax machines > > (which were in vented in the 1700's BTW) > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. Think of Volta and his electric piles. Electricity generated by moving wires past magnets was a later development, but there was battery power in the 18th C. ISTR the device required an engraved copper plate for sending and synchronized pendula, one on each end of the transmission. I think the receiving paper was treated in some way to change color when exposed to an electric current. It wasn't very efficient, but to be able to transmit an image over a distance at all was quite a feat for its day. The practical application had to wait until the development of a national communications infrastructure. One of my favorite quotes from the telecommunications industry was a fellow who was chided for his enthusiasm about the new telephones. After all, we had the telegraph - who really needs to speak person-to-person all that badly. His (paraphrased) response: "The telephone is a wonderful device. I think at some point, every city will have one." -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 11:06:48 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) References: Message-ID: <20000612160153.41348.qmail@hotmail.com> They used to make internal hard drives for the Mac Plus that attached to the upper frame, to the side of the CRT. Someone probably kludged one into a SE case, not wanting to forego the all important second FD. I remember launching MacPaint on my Fatmac and having to swap out system disks ten or twelve times before I could doodle. Thank god for that external 400k drive, who would need more space? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:40 PM Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) > > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From ebrens at dds.nl Mon Jun 12 11:10:16 2000 From: ebrens at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:18:58AM -0400 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000612181016.A18863@stronghold.xs4all.nl> On Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:18:58AM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > things converting signed to unsigned values. Try this instead: > > Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); > > or even: > > Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; This is not correct, the pstrBuffer element you are referring to is not a pointer but an uchar. The correct line should be: Mem[addr+i] = (uchar) *(pstrBuffer+i); Good luck, Erik. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 12 11:24:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Finds in Pittsburgh, PA References: Message-ID: <39450EA7.A9E72157@rain.org> Pat Barron wrote: > > For anyone local (or who can get here relatively easily) and would be > interested in this .... > > I stopped by the Goodwill Computer Store over the weekend, and saw that > they have a bunch (maybe two dozen) SPARCstation IPC's and IPX's, for Is this the store in Southside? If so and I lived near Pittsburgh, I would make both it and the regular Goodwill store a few doors down regular stops! > purchasing several machines at once, for a lower price), since the > day-to-day store staff do not have the authority to renegotiate prices. Again, if we are talking about the same store, they did renegotiate prices when I was there. Of course, I did buy more than $1 or two worth of stuff "). From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 12 11:46:26 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) Did you want the number of iterations to be iLength, or iLength +1 (what you have there)? > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; Did you want to add i to the pointer and retrieve what the resulting pointer points to, or did you want to retrieve what the pointer points to, and then add i to that value? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Jun 12 12:26:33 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Fax Machines In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000612102544.0260c6d0@208.226.86.10> At 11:03 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >location predated the deployment of electricity. Get a copy of "The Secret Life of Machines", the FAX Machine episode. Really cool stuff. --Chuck From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Jun 12 18:14:44 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc Message-ID: Hello, A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From bwit at pobox.com Mon Jun 12 12:32:16 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> At 10:55 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: [snip] > >// copy binary image to the emulator memory >for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > return 0; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array >of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. >My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? > Hi Rich, A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); return(0); Regards, Bob From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 12:32:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > -dq You can't possibly be serious. Electricity was deployed in the late 1890s and by 1928 fairly widely. Allison From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 12:36:35 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <20000612181016.A18863@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000e01bfd494$c176f430$350810ac@chipware.com> > > Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); > > > > or even: > > > > Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; > > This is not correct, the pstrBuffer element you are referring to is not a > pointer but an uchar. What? In the context of his example, pstrBuffer is a pointer to a signed character. The trick is to cast that pointer to be a pointer to an unsigned character. Then you can dereference the pointer using either the asterix or the array index. > The correct line should be: > > Mem[addr+i] = (uchar) *(pstrBuffer+i); This will result in exactly the same potentially ambiguous behavior as his original example. The compiler will probably deref the pointer into a signed int with the twos complement sign bit extended into the higher bits. Then the fun begins. If it takes the signed int and (logically) converts it into an unsigned int and then tries to convert that to an unsigned char, you potentially wind up with a significant overflow. The behavior at this point is not well defined. You might get the desired answer, you might not. Depends on who implemented the compiler, what the target architecture is, etc. From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 12:46:19 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfd496$1da3a4f0$350810ac@chipware.com> > A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: > > memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); Or, if it's binary, why not read directly into Mem and skip the extra buffer all together. Something like: fread (Mem + addr, 1, iLength, pFile); From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 12 12:48:58 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01bfd496$7d5ddeb0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old > style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I > don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick > adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. > -- Gary Hildebrand I don't have the pinouts but can reverse engineer a cable I have for a Sony 14" VGA/multiscan ca.1988. The monitor has a db 15 female connector in the back, plus the appropriate cable, sounds like what you have. John A. (away from Home) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 12 12:50:13 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Jun 12, 2000 05:14:44 PM Message-ID: <200006121750.LAA30491@calico.litterbox.com> Any good mac dealer should have adapters to do this. Do be aware that older mac monitors are often fixed frequency, so make sure the config your friend is using is right for the monitor. > > Hello, > > A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old > style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I > don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick > adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 12 12:12:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. > Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. As far as I know, the first facsimile machine was invented in around 1826 (there was a nice little article about it in the back of Success magazine [of all places] over a year ago). Napolean supposedly deployed them all around Europe so that he could distribute intelligence and battle plans fast and efficiently. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 13:19:41 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bain's machine was dated 1842, commercial service began at Paris, 1863. I think NYU law school has some interesting bits on the early fax service. On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > > > It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. > > Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. > > As far as I know, the first facsimile machine was invented in around 1826 > (there was a nice little article about it in the back of Success magazine > [of all places] over a year ago). > > Napolean supposedly deployed them all around Europe so that he could > distribute intelligence and battle plans fast and efficiently. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Jun 12 13:18:39 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Simple, the slushware does the port to 5027based video and keycodes to >ascii translations and terminal emulation. You would not want that >inbetween a nominal serial port and the system while using a terminal. > >To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console >requests are mapped to another port. Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 12 13:21:25 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) Message-ID: I have a mac plus in my collection that has something called a Hyperdrive installed in it. It's a controller card and MFM hard drive that fits behind the crt and everything actually just fits. Mine amazingly still works. Unless it was a special configuration, there was no such thing as a dual floppy SE with a hard drive. In a message dated Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:10:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Jason McBrien" writes: << They used to make internal hard drives for the Mac Plus that attached to the upper frame, to the side of the CRT. Someone probably kludged one into a SE case, not wanting to forego the all important second FD. I remember launching MacPaint on my Fatmac and having to swap out system disks ten or twelve times before I could doodle. Thank god for that external 400k drive, who would need more space? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:40 PM Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) > > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > >> From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 14:14:23 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Fax Machines References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000612102544.0260c6d0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000612190928.85285.qmail@hotmail.com> Do you know where to get these? I've only seen TSLOM on the Discovery channel, and they haven't played them in years. Nothing comes up on any internet searches, either. Damn BBC. While I'm at it, anyone remember an old Live from Off Center PBS show that featured a single, half hour long Rube Goldberg contraption? It was in a dark wharehouse and they taped it as some sort of performance art peice. It rocked, and I can't find any info on it. Thanks! -Jason McBrien ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: Fax Machines > At 11:03 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > >location predated the deployment of electricity. > > Get a copy of "The Secret Life of Machines", the FAX Machine episode. > Really cool stuff. > --Chuck > > From red at bears.org Mon Jun 12 14:37:25 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000611234157.31223.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 11 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > > the older GCR-type disks. > > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs wouldn't either. I'll have to see if I can remember where I read that and refresh my memory. ok r. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 12 14:34:55 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at Jun 12, 2000 10:55:43 AM Message-ID: <200006121934.PAA07647@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Cini, Richard once stated: > > Hi: > > I'm not particularly good at C, so I'm trying to learn more as I add > tape image support to Claus Guiloi's Altair Emulator. > > Anyway, I have a "C pointers" question regarding copying the tape > bits to the emulator memory. Here's some pseudo code... > > //delcared in i8080.c MEMSIZE is virtual memory size in bytes [ snipped --- NOTE: ``//'' is NOT a valid ANSI C comment delimeter, but some C compilers will accept it] I would be inclined to do the following: #include #include #define MAXSIZE 65536L #ifndef FALSE # define FALSE 0 #endif #ifndef TRUE # define TRUE !FALSE #endif typedef size_t i8080addr; int ReadTape (char *filename,void *dest,size_t maxsize); i8080addr AskLoadAddress (void); unsigned char Mem [MEMSIZE]; /* code ... */ loadaddr = AskLoadAddress(); if (loadaddr >= MAXSIZE) /* too large of an address */ return(FALSE); rc = ReadTape(filename,Mem+loadaddr,MAXSIZE - loadaddr); if (rc == FALSE) return(rc); /* rest of code */ Basically, read the file directly into the 8080 virtual memory space. Saves moving it around afterwards. But for your original question reguarding: > uchar Mem [MEMSIZE]; > PSTR pstrBuffer ; //buffer for fread command > // copy binary image to the emulator memory > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array > of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. > My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? The right hand side looks suspicious so I might make it read: for (i = 0 ; i < iLength ; i++) Mem[i + addr] = (uchar) (*(pstrBuffer + i)); Arrays are zero based, so an array that is 10 elements long uses indicies from 0 to 9, so your original code would write one too many bytes (and may or may not crash the program, depending upon the system). -spc (Have C compiler, will program) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 14:42:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF5@TEGNTSERVER> Ok, at least three people have questioned my remark, so I'd like to restate it. I was going to let it pass, but here goes. An article in an old issue of Radio Electronics, which was a construction article using surplus equipment, made the remark that fax'es weren't a new invention (new meaning 50's-60's) but that Toshiba had built and sold them in Japan since 1928. I posted this remark as a reply to someone who said that the facsimile machine had been invented in the 1700s. I found this difficult to believe as I would have thought that an electrical infrastructure would have been a necessary requirement. I was corrected on this. For anyone who misread my message and got instead that I thought electricity had been deployed after 1928 needs to go back to school and learn English all over again. Of course, if we were talking about Arkansas, I do believe the fax machine is older than Arkansas having electricty. Any Black Oak fans out there? :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 1:33 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > > > -dq > > You can't possibly be serious. Electricity was deployed in > the late 1890s > and by 1928 fairly widely. > > Allison > > From bwit at pobox.com Mon Jun 12 14:58:34 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <000f01bfd496$1da3a4f0$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000612145834.008f7cc0@ruffboy.com> At 01:46 PM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: >> A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: >> >> memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); > >Or, if it's binary, why not read directly into Mem and >skip the extra buffer all together. Something like: > >fread (Mem + addr, 1, iLength, pFile); > I agree. I was going to suggest that but the original code didn't show reading the data in so I didn't know if additional checks were being made to insure it was valid before placing it in "memory". Regards, Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:05:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <003301bfd286$6d211b00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 9, 0 08:48:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/700681e4/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:09:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 9, 0 10:57:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 812 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/bfe2705f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:45:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 9, 0 07:10:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 793 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/8042437f/attachment-0001.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 12 15:04:40 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series Message-ID: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Well, today I walked by the auto labs in mech engr and found that they had finally finished dismantling this very old combustion/emissions test rig, and the HP1000 computer that ran the whole show had not been hauled away yet. Somebody had laid a claim on it two weeks ago, but since it's so long already and they haven't showed up, the person who handled the decomissioning gave it to me. I have not been able to open the front panel latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know what's in the front card cage; all I know is that there are seven cards, four at the botton and three at the top. In the back cage there are three jumper cards, two 12821A disk interfaces,one "time base generator card", and four cards marked "BACI 12966A" where most of the control I/O was apparently done. There are two big cards below the main card cage, but I haven't got to them yet. I also got several cables; two of them obviously connected the disk interface cards to an HPIB device (an HP 7946 tape drive also came in the lot), while others went to the test rig, and yet another seemed to go to a PC being used as a terminal. Unfortunately, I don't know where the cables were originally connected, as somebody had already pulled all cables off the computer. The machine is very, very dirty; not surprising considering where it came from (a car shop). The fans are full of oil-impregnated dust. I don't plan to power it up until I know more about it. They tell me that it was still functional about three years ago. Apparently nobody has touched it since. So, does anybody have any info on the power supply of this thing so I can test it before applying power to the cards? And, where did the console go in this machine? Best regards, carlos. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:14:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 10, 0 00:25:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2049 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/6095fa59/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:47:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 9, 0 11:19:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 959 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/b26a8944/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:21:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 10, 0 01:06:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/77d50e12/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:56:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:33 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <002901bfd283$911b56e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 9, 0 08:28:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/4f79177c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:50:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 10, 0 11:40:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1081 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/1ea56928/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:55:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 10, 0 08:54:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/f28e256c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:57:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: <200006101709.KAA07198@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 10, 0 10:09:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/336fe992/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 14:05:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 10, 0 01:39:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/f4ac2817/attachment-0001.ksh From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 15:15:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization > table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that > goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? Stag is yet another company that no longer keeps any documentation around for their products that are more than a few years old. :-( Is it me, or is is strange, and ridiculous, that many computer and electronic equipment manufacturers don't even keep documentation around, not even for historical purposes, for more than a few years? It would make perfect sense for most companies in the computer and electronics field to replace all the "Inc."s with "Sales Corporation", since all they're obviously interested in is sales, not product quality or durability. ...well, they do talk about complying with that ISO9xxx "quality" lunacy, but we all know that's nothing more than a marketing gimmick to drive up prices and drive yet another stake in the coffin of individuality in the name of conformity. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 12 15:21:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Jun 12, 2000 03:37:25 PM Message-ID: <200006122021.NAA18724@shell1.aracnet.com> > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. PowerMac's just plain have problems with floppies. Last October I needed to read all my Mac floppies in and make disk images. I set up a 68k based Mac to do it, the speed difference is amazing. One would think the PowerMac would always be faster than a 68k Mac, but when it comes to reading or writing floppies you're best off using a 68k Mac if you've got any amount to do! Of course the reason I was making the disk images is so I could put them on CD-R, as my G4/450 didn't come with a floppy. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 12 15:34:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 12, 2000 08:05:39 PM Message-ID: <200006122034.NAA23861@shell1.aracnet.com> > > < R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer > > electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and > > meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being > > forcibly escorted out of the store. > > > > > Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to > > As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have, indeed, dismantled > consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of > the shop). Tony, Here in the country of stupid lawsuits and 'Super Stores' you'd probably be kicked out of the store for just suggesting it! In fact I got kicked out of a Bookstore on Saturday, they wouldn't let me even buy the books I had in my hand, all because someone had driven a car into the doorframe of the one entrance. Shoot in someplaces around here you'd be pushing your luck if you wanted to open the box to make sure all the pieces were in there. Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 16:23:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Fax Machines In-Reply-To: <20000612190928.85285.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Do you know where to get these? I've only seen TSLOM on the Discovery > channel, and they haven't played them in years. Nothing comes up on any > internet searches, either. Damn BBC. http://www.islandnet.com/~ianc/med/slom.html > While I'm at it, anyone remember an old Live from Off Center PBS show that > featured a single, half hour long Rube Goldberg contraption? It was in a > dark wharehouse and they taped it as some sort of performance art peice. It > rocked, and I can't find any info on it. Thanks! I remember that, and I wish I knew how to get a copy. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mrdos at swbell.net Mon Jun 12 16:46:14 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus Message-ID: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus property to the public? Thanks, Owen From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 16:49:03 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know if the UK stuff is different, but the WD40 I've seen seems > to leave a waxy deposit (probably just very thick oils/greases) on the > metal. I think it is just the old lubricant residue. > I don't know if this comes from the WD40, or if it's due to some > reaction between the WD40 and the old lubricant, or what, but it makes a > right mess of small mechnaisms, and it's non-trivial to get rid of. When I rebuild radio dynamotors, I always repack the bearings with synthetic lubricants. The time consuming job of the operation is getting the old crap out of the bearings. WD-40 works like a charm, but yes, I run into the residue, and I would rather not use a whole can of the stuff for each bearing! Acetone works well to get the rest of the stuff out. I put a little acetone in small cup and dip the bearings. The gunk comes right out and floats on the surface. It is indeed waxy. Be careful around plastics, of course. And for those that think this is Off Topic, remember that those of us with card readers and punches will have to go thru the motor rebuild process sooner or later (preferrably sooner). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 16:45:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006122034.NAA23861@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 12, 0 01:34:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/80845350/attachment-0001.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Jun 12 16:57:09 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <39451665.20656.6BF7FF@localhost> I've never heard of that before. I know that UH, UT and Rice hold auctions to sell off old computers from time to time. One auction at Rice is open to people in the University first and what's left over is then offered to the public. Don't know for sure about any places in D/FW. David On 12 Jun 2000, at 16:46, Owen Robertson wrote: > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about > surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are > required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal > Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of > anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in > the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus > property to the public? > > Thanks, > Owen > > ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 12 17:06:21 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Owen Robertson wrote: > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about surplus > property, and they said that all Texas Universities are required to turn > their old computers over to the Texas Criminal Justice (or something like > that) Department. Has anyone else heard of anything like this, or know why > they have to do this? Does anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any > Universities that sell surplus property to the public? My guess would be, that any such requirement would be on public (state-funded) universities only. I can't imagine any way a state would be able to, for all intents and purposes, seize the property of a private university. So, you might try finding schools that aren't state-funded, and see if you can buy surplus from them. Another snag you might run into is the problem with funding agencies. When I was at Carnegie-Mellon, I worked on a DoD-sponsored research project. We never surplussed *anything*, and we never threw anything away (at least, in the 2.5 years that I was there). The reason was, that our funding agency (who had paid for all of our hardware) required that, if we wanted to surplus something, we had to first go through a process to put it on a list to offer it to other government agencies. Only after the equipment had been on this list for several months, with no interest from any other agencies, could we dispose of it. We were told at the time that the estimated time from deciding to surplus something, until we were actually permitted to do so (assuming that it was not snapped up by another agency in the meantime), was at least 12 months. --Pat. From g at kurico.com Mon Jun 12 17:38:56 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <39452030.32417.1035EA8A@localhost> Unfortunately this is true. All Texas public universities are required to let the convicts bang on any excess computer inventory (something to do with rehab programs to teach them how to repair computers). The sad thing is that _anything_ marked as a computer goes there, including things that they'd have no idea what to do with (i.e. anything other than a pc). I'm in the process of trying to find out what happens on the back end to stuff that they don't use (I hear they go to state contracted scrappers :( ). This all started towards the latter part of last year. I lucked out and was able to pick up an Intel iPSC because the things were marked as "power supply cabinets". Truely a sad state of affairs, I saw a Connections Machines and several RS/6000's at A&M destined to become a weapon for a prisoner. George > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about > surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are > required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal > Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of > anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in > the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus > property to the public? > > Thanks, > Owen > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 19:03:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 12, 0 05:49:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2026 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/32d9b276/attachment-0001.ksh From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 19:27:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... Message-ID: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> If anybody ever asked me what cars could be compared to classic computers, this is what I'd pick out: System: TI-99/4A Car equivalent: DMC Delorean Reason: It looks like a Delorean, & is about as flawed. System: Original Apple Macintosh Car equivalent: Any Saturn Reason: Way back when, Apple wanted to make you think that you were the wise consumer. Saturn does the same. System: Altair 8800 Car equivalent: Ford Model "T" Reason: If you can't figure this one out, hang up your mouse on the way out. System: Commodore 64 Car equivalent: 1957 Chevy Reason: Name anybody who didn't have one of these when they were out! (both the car or the system, that is) System: Apple /// Car equivalent: Yugo Reason: None required. System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! System: IBM PC Jr. Car equivalent: Edsel Reason: See "Apple ///" System: Apple Macintosh II Car equivalent: Mack Truck Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. System: Commodore Amiga Car equivalent: Any Lexus Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise with its comparison. System: Apple LISA Car equivalent: Rolls Royce Reason: Self-explanitory. Got anything to add? I'd like to see what you guys can come up with? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 12 19:31:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006130031.RAA11737@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I normally soak ball races, etc in petrol (best) or paraffin (safer, but Hi For us yanks, paraffin is what we call kerosene, not the stuff we make candles from. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 19:56:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Jun 13, 0 00:27:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/06e03caf/attachment-0001.ksh From red at bears.org Mon Jun 12 20:06:44 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, no... The Delorean was supposed to be fast. The TI-99/4a was about > the slowest home computer ever. The Delorean was supposed to be fast, but wasn't. Sounds right to me! (: ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 20:03:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: <200006130031.RAA11737@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jun 12, 0 05:31:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/e1984db8/attachment-0001.ksh From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 20:26:50 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: wiring for MMJ cable to connect VT320 to VAX VLC Message-ID: <20000612202650.A29500@mrbill.net> I need to connect a VT320 to a VAXstation 4000-VLC; anybody know the correct wiring scheme (straight-thru, twisted, null-modem?) for the MMJ cable to do so? I dont have a MMJ cable handy so I'm gonna multilate a normal phone cable and some normal RJ11 heads.... bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 16:28:10 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: nearly classic digital DECpc XL 466dx2 In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200006130131.VAA13322@smtp13.bellglobal.com> From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 21:00:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > System: Apple /// > Car equivalent: Yugo > Reason: None required. Actually, an IBM type PC running MS-Windows (particularly the new cheap PC hardware) is more like a Yugo: cheap, poorly designed, an accident waiting to happen. > System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 > Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT > Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! Ford made more powerful cars than the mustang in the lats 1960's, such as the Shelby cobra and other cars with the 425 horsepower big-block engines in them. > System: IBM PC Jr. > Car equivalent: Edsel > Reason: See "Apple ///" The Edsel wasn't popular, but it was well designed; a very nice car and ahead of its time. Comparing this beautiful car to a PC Jr. is most unfair. > System: Apple Macintosh II > Car equivalent: Mack Truck > Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. An IBM 7090 is closer to a Mack truck... or, perhaps a Peterbilt. > System: Commodore Amiga > Car equivalent: Any Lexus > Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise > with its comparison. I wouldn't pay 50-cents for a Lexus, and if I won one as a prize, I'd sell it to someone gullible and buy a used Ford F250 truck. > System: Apple LISA > Car equivalent: Rolls Royce > Reason: Self-explanitory. A Rolls Royce (well, some of the older ones anyuway) is a thing of beauty. A PDP-11/70 with it's blinking lights, or a PERQ workstation which is far superior to that overrated LISA thing. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 12 20:58:11 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series (more) References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <39459533.41387530@cornell.edu> Ok, the power supply is fine. I put back together everything and turned the thing on; the "pwr fail" led was lit ("uh oh" was going through my mind), but then I hit the "halt" and some other buttons in the front panel and that light went away. All buttons seem to be responsive. I really need to know where to plug a serial console to this thing... Tomorrow I'll try connecting the combination hd/tape drive that came with it. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 18:26:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: <007101bfd4d5$cda505d0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >>To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console >>requests are mapped to another port. > >Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization >table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that >goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. Well read on. I did say that the existant trapping ports 03/04 (603x and 604x) that corospond to nominal PDP-8 console are also incomplete and cannot fall into the interrupt skip chain as a nominal TTY (m-series) module would. Sure revised slushware can fix some ills but, not all. Add to that the printer and COM ports are using devices that are also off the PDP-8 track. It really ends up that despite slushware the hardware is enough odd that standard PDP-8 code (aka OS/8 and programming handbook examples) do not work or have to be modifed from the source code side like OS/278 was. Impossible, no. Reasonable, I don't think so. I've played with the 6100 and 6120 enough to know it's just enough different from PDP-8 that it does make a difference with IO and most peripherals. Still, it's usability and perfomance as a hybrid is nothing to ignore. For those interested in programming the PDP-8 like 6120 it's a great platform to see how a simple machine is anything but. For my $.02 finding a tube (vr201 or any monochrome monitor) and a DEC keyboard are not that bug a challenge as they were widely used on rainbow, pro and terminals. Making the cable used is also not that hard. If there was any hack at all that is worth adding it's the real reset button I have on mine. Saves power cycling. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 18:14:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <007001bfd4d5$ccd532b0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >For anyone who misread my message and got instead that >I thought electricity had been deployed after 1928 >needs to go back to school and learn English all over >again. >> > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >> > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >> > location predated the deployment of electricity. >> > >> > -dq ;) In these days of the PC retrorevionist history of computers who knew? It's the comma splice, that did it! Because of how you constructed the sentence, the date, "1928" was juxtaposed between toshiba and deployment of electricity. I hope my grammer was suitably twisted. Seriously it really wasn't clear enough that there were two distinct though realted ideas there. Allison From west at tseinc.com Mon Jun 12 21:38:17 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <000901bfd4e0$6ee49460$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... > I have not been able to open the front panel > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > what's in the front card cage; Memory subsystem. > all I know is that there > are seven cards, four at the botton and three at the top. > In the back cage there are three jumper cards Jumper cards continue the interrupt priority chain in the backplane. If your OS is interrupt driven, you need the jumpers for open slots. If your OS isn't interrupt driven, you don't need these. > two 12821A disk > interfaces Disk interface, HP-IB variety ISTR >one "time base generator card" This card provides timing to the OS or any program that wants timed intervals. > and four > cards marked "BACI 12966A" where most of the control > I/O was apparently done. BACI boards are serial cards. > There are two big cards > below the main card cage, but I haven't got to them > yet. Motherboard and the one below that if I understand you right is firmware. > I also got several cables; two of them obviously > connected the disk interface cards to an HPIB > device (an HP 7946 tape drive also came in the lot), > while others went to the test rig, and yet another > seemed to go to a PC being used as a terminal. > Unfortunately, I don't know where the cables were > originally connected, as somebody had already pulled > all cables off the computer. Most typically in this system, the OS was genned for each card in a certain slot. If the card positions have been changed the OS generally won't boot. If you moved the cards, you have to regen the OS. Most likely the system console was the baci board that was lowest in the backplane, as this one would have the highest priority. If it was running RTE, ISTR there is way to boot the system that tells it that the configuration has changed and where the console and disk are. If this matches your situation, drop me an email and I'll look it up for you. > So, does anybody have any info on the power supply of this > thing so I can test it before applying power to the > cards? And, where did the console go in this machine? I have a fair amount of info on the E series, as do others on the list. Let me know if you need anything... Jay West From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:00:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > System : IBM PC + clones > Car : Ford > Reason : You find them everywhere. They do the job, but nothing particularly > nice about them. Tony, didn't you mean to say Chevy instead of Ford? Actually, when equipped with MS-Windows, a Yugo is a better comparison. As the owner of an older Mercury, a Ford product, I can in no way compare this to an IBM type PC; likewise for another Ford I drive on occasion: large, solidly built (was like a tank when new, about 26 years ago), reliable, smooth-riding, etc. I'm guessing that as a comparison, you're going by the small Fords sold in England, which can't compare to, let's say, a 1972 Mercury Grand Marquis, or a late model Crown Victoria, etc. > System : Fast Pentium-based PC-clone > Car : Turbocharged Ford with go-faster stripes, etc > Reason : It goes like the clappers, but underneath it's still the same > old machine. Nothing 'interesting' about it. See above. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:14:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have, indeed, dismantled > consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of > the shop). If the average consumer these days was reasonably intelligent, stores would be forced to have models on display that were open, or disassembled, so that one could see the insides, etc. I recall when stores typically had things like washing machine models on display with cases that were partially clear so that one could see the insides. At one Radio Shack, the cover was removed from a tuner that was on display. It wasn't at all unusual to see demo models on display in stores that were either partially disassembled or had see-through panels in them. I also recall seeing ads in magazines that showed the insides of things, in rather good detail, from consumer appliances like vacuum cleaners to hi-fi equipment, and had lines pointing to certain components, etc. These days, I guess the safest solution is to buy something, disassemble it thoroughly at home, then put it back together carefully and return it if you don't like what you discovered. If you had to break any "warranty void if opened" seals, and someone at the store notices this, just use that as the excuse for returning it, that someone (you don't have to say it was you!) tampered with it, and you don't want to risk buying another one from that store. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 22:31:27 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > choose, right?). Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my partner and I) assume full liability. A real-life story: Previously, we owned a trophy/awards/engraving shop. One day Mrs. Mom and her three children came in looking for a ten-dollar trophy. While I was taking her order, Junior (about ten years old) knocked a $300 crystal figurine off of a shelf, onto the floor, smashing it to bits. I asked the child to leave it alone, but as I was fetching a broom Mom told Junior to "clean up that mess" and he grabbed a handful of glass, severely cutting himself. End result: lawsuit filed, insurance carrier settled out of court, insurance company jacked up our premiums, and we're out a $300 piece of crystal. I couldn't complain, because that was the cheapest way out of the situation. So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in *my store*! Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:42:50 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Craig Smith wrote: > Sounds like the oxide is crapped out and starting to come off [on your > heads!]. I ran across the same thing with a big box of HP > cassettes--only about 6 out of 50 or so were even remotely usable [and > they had been stored in the original storage boxes in reasonable > environmental conditions for the last 20 years]. Doesn't bode well for > the future of tape media. Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the safest solution. ...but storage of data onto multiple hard drives and backed up regularly onto two different types of modern media (e.g. 4mm and 8mm cartridges), and changing to a new type of media before what was being used becomes obsolete, is the safest bet. Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of deteriorating media that we need to use with our older computer systems. At this point, fortunately, many forms of media, although becoming expensive, such as 8" floppies, are still available. Has compaq stopped the manufacture of many forms of DEC media that were available in the recent past? Interestingly, I've been able to read DC300 cartridges from around 1982, yet, I've had a copy of one tape, copied onto a relatively new DC300XL cartriodge, go bad: the tape stuck together and then was torn apart. :-( -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 22:44:18 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: Hey Tony: > At some surplus shops, the owner was quite happy for me to pull cases > from machines, like PCs, before buying one to see what cards were in it. > But not to dismantle it any further. The owner provided the tools as well. The UK must be a paradise compared to the states. If I let customers use my tools I would never get any work done, due to a lack of tools! More than once someone's taken CD-ROM software, leaving the empty jewel case behind. Once someone even stole a mouse from a system we had on display . . . reached around the back and unplugged it . . . please do me a favor and advise me as to emigration requirements . . . ;>) Glen 0/0 From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 18:50:06 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: DECpc XL 466dx2 - almost classic. In-Reply-To: <000901bfd4e0$6ee49460$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <200006130352.XAA07225@smtp13.bellglobal.com> Excuse for the blank email. That is very strange because did send out this mesage already typed. Sigh! Got pentium 90 processor card or Alpha card for it? Model: 775ww Thanks! Can trade the IBM 90 XP parts for this one. Wizard From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 23:00:31 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act Message-ID: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> Hey Tony: > ARD : 'If any part is missing or damaged then I intend to return it here > and now for a cash refund under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act. This is really off-topic for the list so feel free to reply directly to my e-mail address -- I'd like to know your (and the group's) opinion: What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. Please advise. Glen 0/0 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Jun 12 23:20:33 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport Message-ID: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> This is semi-OT, since the IIsi has two years to go before it's on topic :-) For a Commodore nut, I sure seem to be doing a steady traffic in Apples. >From the same place I got the SE/30 and the IIgs ROM 3, I also picked up a IIsi. After some cursing because it was set up with At UnEase, I rigged a boot disk, trashed AE and started poking around. It's an '030 with 5MB RAM running System 7.1. I'm finally seeing value in the tuition I pay to Loma Linda University, since I basically went to the System Folder on all their System 7 Macs and grabbed all the extensions and control panels. Surprisingly, at least to me (the systems in question were 7.5 or later), this seemed to work EXCEPT for OpenTransport. PC Exchange purrs like a kitten and I'm able to handle ProDOS and DOS like a pro. (By the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be bootable?) But the IIsi simply refuses to mount OT. I downloaded 1.0.8 from the Apple support site and tried that, but it simply said it could not be installed on this particular model and gave no further explanation. The readme asserts that it will run on '030s and 7.1, though, for all the versions available from asu.info.apple.com. However, they appear to be updates, not installs (except for 1.0.8, the 1.1.x versions say that 1.1 must be installed already). Simply copying the libraries and the Shared Library Manager into the Extensions folder doesn't work. It just ignores them, and when I try to start the TCP/IP or AppleTalk control panels, it whines that OT is not running. Copying fresh ones from the "uninstallable" install disk doesn't do any good either. Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 23:25:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> Message-ID: > What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a > catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 23:29:08 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I normally soak ball races, etc in petrol (best) or paraffin (safer, but > not so good) to get the old lubricant out. The main ingredient of WD-40, Stoddard solvent, is a form of paraffin (kerosene). > I never run an 'unknown' motor or mechanical device without checking the > lubrication and probably replacing it. I remember the comment in the BRPE > service manual 'running this punch for 10 seconds without lubrication > will ruin it' or words to that effect. Oil/grease are a lot cheaper than > mechancial parts! The grease and oil on some of these punches/readers is creeping up on 40 years old. It just isn't any good anymore, even if it "looks OK". Most fans, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 00:04:51 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > System: Apple /// > > Car equivalent: Yugo > > Reason: None required. > > Actually, an IBM type PC running MS-Windows (particularly the new > cheap PC hardware) is more like a Yugo: cheap, poorly designed, an > accident waiting to happen. > > > System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 > > Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT > > Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! > > Ford made more powerful cars than the mustang in the lats 1960's, such > as the Shelby cobra and other cars with the 425 horsepower big-block > engines in them. > > > System: IBM PC Jr. > > Car equivalent: Edsel > > Reason: See "Apple ///" > > The Edsel wasn't popular, but it was well designed; a very nice car > and ahead of its time. Comparing this beautiful car to a PC Jr. is > most unfair. A Mercury in a horse collar! - don > > System: Apple Macintosh II > > Car equivalent: Mack Truck > > Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. > > An IBM 7090 is closer to a Mack truck... or, perhaps a Peterbilt. > > > System: Commodore Amiga > > Car equivalent: Any Lexus > > Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise > > with its comparison. > > I wouldn't pay 50-cents for a Lexus, and if I won one as a prize, I'd > sell it to someone gullible and buy a used Ford F250 truck. > > > System: Apple LISA > > Car equivalent: Rolls Royce > > Reason: Self-explanitory. > > A Rolls Royce (well, some of the older ones anyuway) is a thing of beauty. > A PDP-11/70 with it's blinking lights, or a PERQ workstation which is > far superior to that overrated LISA thing. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 00:13:38 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > > choose, right?). > > Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent > enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the > States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for > insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work > -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my > partner and I) assume full liability. > > A real-life story: Previously, we owned a trophy/awards/engraving shop. One > day Mrs. Mom and her three children came in looking for a ten-dollar trophy. > While I was taking her order, Junior (about ten years old) knocked a $300 > crystal figurine off of a shelf, onto the floor, smashing it to bits. I > asked the child to leave it alone, but as I was fetching a broom Mom told > Junior to "clean up that mess" and he grabbed a handful of glass, severely > cutting himself. > > End result: lawsuit filed, insurance carrier settled out of court, insurance > company jacked up our premiums, and we're out a $300 piece of crystal. I > couldn't complain, because that was the cheapest way out of the situation. If a few, or more, insurance companies would not cop out on such cases - the mother was clearly culpable - this kind of crap would not go on! - don > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > *my store*! > > Glen > 0/0 > From paulrsm at ameritech.net Tue Jun 13 00:14:03 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport Message-ID: <20000613051709.QNSW2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport > Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:20 AM > > (By the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be bootable?) The boot sector, PRODOS, and a system program, usually BASIC.SYSTEM. Be careful transferring files from the Mac to ProDOS. Often the Mac will create a forked file which ProDOS 8 cannot handle. I use a program to make them ProDOS 8 compatible before the transfer. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 00:17:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: References: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: >Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps >periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the >safest solution. ...but storage of data onto multiple hard drives and >backed up regularly onto two different types of modern media (e.g. 4mm >and 8mm cartridges), and changing to a new type of media before what >was being used becomes obsolete, is the safest bet. 4mm and 8mm are nothing but *SHORT TERM* storage. Plus, while it's not big problem with 8mm from what I've seen, with 4mm you'd best know what model drive that 4mm was written on! DLT's might cost an arm and a leg, but they're worth it if you're archiving data, and even they need to be refreshed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:44:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000613054400.15062.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. In that regard, the IIci is only barely a '90s Mac. IIRC it came out +/- three months of when the SE/30 did. But I think all 68k-based Macs except very early and perhaps very late ones could handle 800K. Certainly all of the Quadras and Centrises that I've used had no problem with it, but I didn't ever have occasion to use the last few 68K models. Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:48:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000613054840.15093.qmail@brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > IIRC an EPP port gives you 8 data lines, which is no way enough to talk > to an 11/45 front panel (there are 18 data/address input switches, 18 EPP gets you eight data signals, a R/W* line, an address strobe, and a data strobe. It's equivalent to a multiplexed-address-and-data peripheral bus. So you can hang basically as many I/O signals off it as you're willing to wire up. There's even a signal that can be used as an interrupt input. The nice part is that the "SuperIO" sort of chipsets do all the handshaking for you, so if you want to write a 0x32 to EPP device register 0x2a, all you have to do is two write cycles. No bit-banging of the control lines or handshake inputs required. It's pretty handy. The only annoying part is the need for the EPP device to generate a transfer acknowledge signal. I would have been slightly happier if they spec'd a standard default cycle time, and required the peripheral to assert a wait signal if it couldn't complete the transfer that quickly. That would allow for very simple devices with less logic. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:52:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> (message from Carlos Murillo on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:04:40 -0400) References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20000613055231.15127.qmail@brouhaha.com> Carlos wrote about an HP 1000 E-series: > I have not been able to open the front panel > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > what's in the front card cage; One of the screws behind the front panel "flange", when removed, will cause the panel latch assembly to fall to the bottom of the machine, and the front panel to flop open. It is then a simple matter to remove the lock and take it to a locksmith to either get a key made or get it rekeyed. It's also very easy to reassemble. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 01:05:06 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (rdd@smart.net) References: Message-ID: <20000613060506.15231.qmail@brouhaha.com> R. D. Davis wrote: > Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps > periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the > safest solution. If you're looking for long-term archival storage, 1/2" magtape is NOT it. Even of tapes written to good quality media (e.g., the 3M Blackwatch 700 someone here praised a while back), I've found some that were written only seven years ago and stored in a suitably climate- controlled area that can't be read now. And others on cheap tape stored in a garage for 25 years that read fine. The longevity of the media is far too unpredictable. IMHO, the only thing that makes sense today is to write archives to CD-R (with a gold reflective layer, not the shoddy silver stuff), and plan to recopy it to newer (and possibly more modern) media within 20 years. Kodak did a study of their CD-R media (the white paper is available on their web site somewhere), and with accelerated aging tests found that they could *conservatively* rate their media for 100 year data retention. They did point out, however, that accelerated aging does not necessarily accurately model all failure mechansims. However, it should still be quite reasonable to expect a substantial portion of that, so even someone as paranoid about it as I am should still be able to expect 10-20 years. I also wouldn't trust any old cheapo CD-R media even if it does have a gold reflective layer. The name brand stuff is *significantly* better in terms of error rates. I'd probably write at least two different copies of any valuable data on two different name brands of CD-R media, and then verify them is several CD-ROM drives. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 01:11:11 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (rdd@smart.net) References: Message-ID: <20000613061111.15301.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote (about CD-R longevity): > However, it should still be quite > reasonable to expect a substantial portion of that, so even someone as > paranoid about it as I am should still be able to expect 10-20 years. I forgot to mention that since CD-R (used as CD-ROM format for data storage) has three levels of error correction, and any failure mechanisms are unlikely to result in an abrupt failure (yesterday the media was fine, and today it won't read at all), you can also assess the quality of the archive discs at any time. Of course, normally CD-ROM drives don't tell you about corrected errors, but the better ones have ways to issue SCSI (or ATAPI) commands to get this sort of information. So rather than blindly setting some future date to recopy the discs, you could check up on them every few years, and watch the correctable error counts. The error correction consists of three layers of very robust cross-interleaved Reed-Solomon codes, so it takes a very large number of closely positioned errors that would be individually correctable before you get an uncorrectable error. From richard at idcomm.com Tue Jun 13 01:28:00 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <20000613054840.15093.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <003401bfd500$86cd9700$56483cd1@winbook> Being somewhat more specific, the EPP gives you an Address Strobe, a Data Strobe, a Wait, an interupt, and eight data lines. It also gives you a Write line (indeed a R/w*) but what's important is that your software doesn't have to manipulate these strobes, since the hardware does it automatically. As a consequence, the timing is always as fast as your hardware can do the job, provided you've hooked up the handshakes properly. As with many standards, this one doesn't tell you what, exactly, that might be, and that's where you are right again. However, it's intended, if you can believe the many write-up's that make this claim, that it's capable of ISA bus speeds. That, in short, means two clock ticks at 8 MHz per transfer, if the sync between the handshake lines, strobe and wait, happens just so, else it will probably take three ticks. I've never seen one that fast, and I've only managed to build an interface that moves that fast when I have access to the bus clock, which ABSOLUTELY should be verboten, as the interface is supposed to work without that. If you're not concerned that the sync be exactly the same all the time, you can use a local oscillator of some harmonic of 8 MHz and use a counter to generate the signals you use synchronously with that, always temporally spaced the same amount due to the value that's loaded into the counter whenever a signal from the PC changes state. That will keep you at a minimal phase shift from what's going on in the machine MOST of the time. Now and then there will be a frame slip due to the difference in the oscillator rates, but that will be just about the same as if you had a PLL running, except the jitter will be much larger but much less frequent. Not all systems will like this approach as well as others, but if you're into synchronous state machines and want purely deterministic results, or as nearly so as you can have, then this is a, not THE, way to get there. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:48 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > IIRC an EPP port gives you 8 data lines, which is no way enough to talk > > to an 11/45 front panel (there are 18 data/address input switches, 18 > > EPP gets you eight data signals, a R/W* line, an address strobe, and > a data strobe. It's equivalent to a multiplexed-address-and-data > peripheral bus. So you can hang basically as many I/O signals off it > as you're willing to wire up. > > There's even a signal that can be used as an interrupt input. > > The nice part is that the "SuperIO" sort of chipsets do all the handshaking > for you, so if you want to write a 0x32 to EPP device register 0x2a, all > you have to do is two write cycles. No bit-banging of the control lines > or handshake inputs required. > > It's pretty handy. The only annoying part is the need for the EPP device > to generate a transfer acknowledge signal. I would have been slightly > happier if they spec'd a standard default cycle time, and required the > peripheral to assert a wait signal if it couldn't complete the transfer > that quickly. That would allow for very simple devices with less logic. > From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 02:03:35 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query References: Message-ID: <3945DCC7.5A84D189@rdel.co.uk> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I > could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? I've got the documentation for this. A few years ago I converted some of it to PostScript so I could runoff more copies. I don't think I completed it, but I'll dig out what I've got and scan the rest. You can go a long way by just having the summary of all the SET commands, which change the device type, I/O formats, etc. Actually, now I think about it, the _real_ reason for converting it to PostScript was just to show off the 14-segment LED font I created. The diagrams originally appeared to be hand drawn. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 03:48:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:34 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and so changes the price. If the price is "fixed" and you "can" test, then you are wise to go ahead and test it. Bit of advice, NEVER plug something in before making at least some check for loose parts inside. I do the same thing right back to them though, make an offer on a pallet as it sits, then if they decide they want to peek in each box to make sure I don't get a goodie, I tell them fine, but I am looking too, and my offer may drop significantly, or I may only want a few of the systems. Another thing I point out all the time is that I "would have offered a lot more" but somebody damaged the case parts opening up the units. Most of the time I am better off buying items as "assumed" non working. OTOH I don't think I will EVER buy another hard drive "AS-IS" unless I am REAL sure it isn't tested bad goods. Any fairly dollar dense item like a hard drive being offered as-is, should be assumed "tested bad". That said, I keep a blade/phillips two ended screwdriver in my shirt pocket, ALL THE TIME (wife doesn't care for it a bit), and regularly take a "kit" with me in a double shoe box sized plastic tub (two pairs of gloves, leather and rubber, wet wipes, full set of screwdrivers including a BIG one, notebook, pen, long nose pliers, a couple of those jackknife type sets of Torx and allen keys, and three or four nut drivers in sizes too small for anything else. That is not so much my inspection kit (pocket screwdriver does that job) as my field tear it apart kit, dumpster divers tools also included are a couple cables (nothing hooks things like a RJ11 or DB9 when fishing). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:11:50 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: Passing this on, email them not me. ;) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1672647-156-960668504-mikeford=socal.rr.com@returns.onelist.com To: acs.list@jmug.org, abandonedcomputers@egroups.com From: "Dorothy J. Rowe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com; contact abandonedcomputers-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:23:05 -0700 Reply-To: abandonedcomputers@egroups.com Subject: [abandonedcomputers] what can I do with this old computer...? > I saw your posting on the helpline at an obsolete computer site... I >have an old Heath / Zenith 150 system that I built and would now like to >move out of my attic to make space. Its an original IBM PC clone that >runs with a NEC V20 chip at all of 8 MHZ. I also have all the original >documentation, software, modem, printer, etc... What can I do with >it ? I live in the L. A. area. thanx Alan Can anyone help here? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:07:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000613060506.15231.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (rdd@smart.net) Message-ID: >IMHO, the only thing that makes sense today is to write archives to CD-R >(with a gold reflective layer, not the shoddy silver stuff), and plan >to recopy it to newer (and possibly more modern) media within 20 years. Key point is to have a REAL plan with funds etc. earmarked on the 10 and 20 year plans for the data. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 03:57:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport In-Reply-To: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for >this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid >it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. Do it anyway, putting a Mac OS together bitwise is an exercise in unnecessary pain. OTOH you don't "really" need OT, just visits Jags FTP and get the old mac on the internet setup. http://www.jagshouse.com/classic.html From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 03:14:31 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. References: Message-ID: <3945ED67.AFB41ADD@rdel.co.uk> Mike Ford wrote: > > Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, > many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item > basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes > into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and > so changes the price. That'd be Schrodinger's Store? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:37:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: References: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: >There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago >about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is >the one thing that won the war. Seems like "most" of the history specials do that, which makes me think it was actually a much more chancy thing then many assume in hindsight. So many "pivotal" points, big mistakes, great strokes of luck, wise descisions, amazing that schools manage to make history suck, when it is SUCH a good story. A few pivotal points off the top of my head. Attack on Pearl Harbor, including fumbled declaration of war. Invasion of Soviet Union. Manhatten project, actually dropping bombs on Japan. Hitlers poor relations and distrust of military leadership. US stopping at Berlin and waiting for Soviets. Failure to adequately take advantage of submarines, V2, and jet technology. Chamberlines policy of appeasement. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 05:53:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <3945ED67.AFB41ADD@rdel.co.uk> References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> >> Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, >> many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item >> basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes >> into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and >> so changes the price. > >That'd be Schrodinger's Store? So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 07:33:05 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query References: <3945DCC7.5A84D189@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <39462A01.D9F96D50@rdel.co.uk> Paul Williams wrote: > > "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > > > Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I > > could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? > > I've got the documentation for this. Whoops. Having just been home and checked, I find that my programmer is a PP39. However, if you think the documentation for _that_ might be useful, let me know. From at258 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 07:49:57 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe it's called an implied warranty of merchantabilty, i.e. the item sold will perform the task for which it was designed. A washing machine will wash clothes, but may not mix peanut butter cookies. Bill, want to buy a large lot of partially mixed cookie dough? On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a > > catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. > > I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a > "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what > was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. > > If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home > and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor > and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 13 07:53:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a > "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what > was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. It's "Fitness for merchatability" and goes to product being saleable or as advertized is saleable condition. It has also been applied to product safety. > If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home > and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor > and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. Only if advertized as complete. Thrifts and other seconds hand businesses are bound differently and caveat emptor certainly applies. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 13 07:57:48 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF7@TEGNTSERVER> To anyone in the group considering this machine... I have the service manuals w/schematics for it (as well as a working example), so don't let fear of it being an oddball machine deter you from rescuing it. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ford [mailto:mikeford@socal.rr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 5:12 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles > > > Passing this on, email them not me. ;) > > > X-eGroups-Return: > sentto-1672647-156-960668504-mikeford=socal.rr.com@returns.onelist.com > To: acs.list@jmug.org, abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > From: "Dorothy J. Rowe" > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com; contact > abandonedcomputers-owner@egroups.com > Delivered-To: mailing list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > Precedence: bulk > List-Unsubscribe: > Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:23:05 -0700 > Reply-To: abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > Subject: [abandonedcomputers] what can I do with this old computer...? > > > I saw your posting on the helpline at an obsolete > computer site... I > >have an old Heath / Zenith 150 system that I built and would > now like to > >move out of my attic to make space. Its an original IBM PC > clone that > >runs with a NEC V20 chip at all of 8 MHZ. I also have all > the original > >documentation, software, modem, printer, etc... What > can I do with > >it ? I live in the L. A. area. thanx Alan > > Can anyone help here? > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 13 08:14:16 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF8@TEGNTSERVER> > >> > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > >> > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > >> > location predated the deployment of electricity. > >> > > >> > -dq > > ;) In these days of the PC retrorevionist history of computers who knew? > > It's the comma splice, that did it! Because of how you constructed the > sentence, the date, "1928" was juxtaposed between toshiba and > deployment of electricity. I hope my grammer was suitably twisted. > > Seriously it really wasn't clear enough that there were two distinct > though realted ideas there. If I read my sentence (quoted above) out of the context of the thread wherein the date 1700s had previously been stated, I'd see how that interpretation could occur. But in-context, I still don't see it. At any rate, it was an honest mistake, and multiple people made it, so I guess we should move on. Following rules of parallel construction isn't easy in hypertext! -dq From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 13 08:35:15 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000001bfd53c$36005a10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> This was very amusing thanks. I once overheard some internal guys (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. Maybe you heard this one? After the success of the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" John A. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 13 09:32:49 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000613093249.2677b43e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Here we go again! At 11:27 PM 6/9/00 -0400, RD wrote: >On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: >> I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive >> are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? >> Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the >> hard drive? > >Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, >didn't you? No, as a mattter of fact I didn't! Not that it's any of your business but the only thing that I really wanted was a card out of the computer. After I pulled the card, I proceeded to power everything up with no problems. The hard drive worked fine and a quick CHKDSK revealed no obvious problems. I used it for several hours with no problems but then tried to use TI's File Manager program that was installed on it and it wiped out part of the operating system. The only reason that I decided to bother with the computer is that it's a nice clean one and included the original monitor and keyboard so I thought I'd try to find it a home. But even if the power supply went up in smoke and the hard drive torn itself to ribbons it was still a good deal for me since the card is worth far more than the rest of the computer. > Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if >the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and >if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result >in filesystem damage. No shit, Sherlock! Read my comments above about why I bought it. Also please explain how you intend to power up a system and park the heads without moving it and with no power available within 500 feet. Oops, I forgot, you insist on checking the power supply first. How do you plan on opening it and testing the power supply without moving it? Again with no available AC power. Let me make a couple of things clear. First, Most of the stuff that I get is considered scrap. If I don't take it then it gets smashed and loaded on a container ship headed to China. That's not just speculation, I've helped to load and ship them. We've shipped three 40,000 pound loads in the last two weeks. So anything that I take at least gets a second chance at survival even if I don't follow every possible precaution about testing it. Second, the places that I get this stuff from have no AC power availble where the equipment is located. I can take the stuff or leave it but it's impossible to power it up and park the heads or test the power supply first. Here's a list of just SOME of the stuff that I've picked up in the last two weeks: SIX Cromemco Z2-D S-100 systems with dual floppy drives and hard drives, HP 9825B (loaded), FIVE various HP 9825 interfaces, HP 1000 A600 computer, HP 1000 E series computer, TWO HP 9895 dual 8" floppy drives, TWO HP 9885 single 8" floppy drives, two HP 987? printers, HP 7906 fixed drive, TWO HP 6940 Multiprogrammers (loaded) and a HP ?? Multiprogrammer Interface, TI Professional computer in like new condition with original monitor and keyboard and a National Instruments HP-IB card, and last night, a IBM AT with an 8" floppy drive controller card. That's in addition to OVER 320 memory SIMMS, numerous cards, keyboards and other bits and pieces. Does that sound like the kind of stuff that should be left as scrap because I can't test it first? Joe From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 13 09:38:08 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. References: Message-ID: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Mike Ford wrote: > >Mike Ford wrote: > >> > >> Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, > >> many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item > >> basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes > >> into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and > >> so changes the price. > > > >That'd be Schrodinger's Store? > > So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all > transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the > weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat > pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, > who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work > that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a > pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay > by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed) trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working ones at the "As is" price! Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors anyway) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 12:01:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: >> So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all >> transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the >> weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat >> pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, >> who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work >> that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a >> pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay >> by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. > >This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed) >trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own >apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working >ones at the "As is" price! > >Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now >Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors >anyway) Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake easy for a basically honest person to make. OTOH Apple II drives are pretty hard to break, how did you test them? Could it have just been incompatibility? Thats the second risk, customer tests your stuff pronounces it bad, but later on it turns out they (generic they, not you) didn't know beans and the stuff is just fine (which of course you find out after customer B buys it for parts and retests later). From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 12:18:22 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:01 13-06-2000 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, >don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake I don't know that it was a mistake, per se. Got a little story I'd like to share along the same lines. Back about 1994, a year or so after my mate and I first moved to Washington, I was in serious BASSW (Bay Area Surplus Store Withdrawal). To make matters worse, it was late fall, season-wise, and I was having serious trouble adapting to WA state's lower sunny-day count (translation: I was depressed and grouchy). So, I grabbed up the phone book and went digging. A new entry came to light: Specifically, the PC-FIXX Clearance Center, purveyor of Used Parts and Other Goodies. I already knew about PC-FIXX by reputation -- they specialized in repair and upgrade of PCs and, in some rare cases, "other" systems. I went up and had a look. They had a nice as-is alley, though most of the prices were inflated, but I still found my first EISA SCSI adapter for $5. The variety of stuff they had was pretty amazing, and I could tell that they were still in their "we-just-opened" chaos phase. The place went downhill from there, sadly. Prices went up, and selection went down. Then, about a year later, a miracle hit. The entire used-parts division was sold to two fellows, Mark Dabek and Steve Hess, who promptly renamed it RE-PC and rejuvenated the entire store. I continued to visit, and I kept asking about (and sometimes even finding) exotic hardware that practically no one else wanted -- EISA stuff, Sun systems, etc. My visits got to be so regular that not only did the owners and staff get to know me, and I them, but they started drawing on my knowledge and skills. Finally, when they started getting big loads of retired Sun stuff from a local service place, they became overwhelmed because of a lack of experience with SCSI hardware. I stepped in with an offer of help (I was well set up to test SCSI stuff at the time) which was gratefully and quickly accepted. I ended up testing over 100 drives over time, disk and tape alike. To this day, I have friends at both stores (Seattle and Tukwila), and I can say with confidence that I've known the owners for years. And what did I get out of all this? Excellent deals on some of those same drives, good friends, an OK to do a detailed inspection on anything I'm thinking of buying, good contacts in the other computer surplus areas (minis and such), and even a job when I most needed it after a layoff (yes, I actually worked for them for about five months). And all that just because I chose, at one depressed moment, not to give up on a place that was going downhill at the time. I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to reach out, even if you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once thought I was). So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're hunting for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:25:32 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport References: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000613172038.56952.qmail@hotmail.com> 5MB is pretty tight to run 7.5 + Open Transport. I've got a Quadra 650 with 8MB DRAM, System 7.5.5, and Open Transport 1.1.2 (The most stable configuration) and the system takes up about 3.5MB, stripped down. I'd stick with classic networking and MacTCP 1.0.6 (Latest version I belive) If you could find a bit more RAM, kick the disk cache up to 768k. This won't really increase disk performance that much (System 7 disk cache sucks) but it will boost video speed, which uses DRAM as VRAM, and setting disk cache to 768k forces the video system to use the faster memory on SIMMs than the really slow on-board 1MB of DRAM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:20 AM Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport > This is semi-OT, since the IIsi has two years to go before it's on topic :-) > > For a Commodore nut, I sure seem to be doing a steady traffic in Apples. > From the same place I got the SE/30 and the IIgs ROM 3, I also picked up a > IIsi. After some cursing because it was set up with At UnEase, I rigged a > boot disk, trashed AE and started poking around. > > It's an '030 with 5MB RAM running System 7.1. I'm finally seeing value in > the tuition I pay to Loma Linda University, since I basically went to the > System Folder on all their System 7 Macs and grabbed all the extensions and > control panels. Surprisingly, at least to me (the systems in question were > 7.5 or later), this seemed to work EXCEPT for OpenTransport. PC Exchange > purrs like a kitten and I'm able to handle ProDOS and DOS like a pro. (By > the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be > bootable?) But the IIsi simply refuses to mount OT. > > I downloaded 1.0.8 from the Apple support site and tried that, but it simply > said it could not be installed on this particular model and gave no further > explanation. The readme asserts that it will run on '030s and 7.1, though, > for all the versions available from asu.info.apple.com. However, they appear > to be updates, not installs (except for 1.0.8, the 1.1.x versions say that > 1.1 must be installed already). > > Simply copying the libraries and the Shared Library Manager into the > Extensions folder doesn't work. It just ignores them, and when I try to > start the TCP/IP or AppleTalk control panels, it whines that OT is not > running. Copying fresh ones from the "uninstallable" install disk doesn't > do any good either. > > Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for > this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid > it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- > From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 13 12:34:51 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just as valid today as it was then... VAXOLOGY There is a computer named VAX, Which is totally loaded with hacks, But the real piece of crap Is the overflow trap, Which an old-PC register lacks. It's got byte-string instructions galore, But the packed decimal format is poor, And the halfword length means That it isn't worth beans, Just like the 360's of yore. Oh, the branch mnemonics are losing, And the right to left numbers confusing, But the thing that's a pain, An efficiency drain, Is the miniscule page size they're using. Well, they give you lots of good stuff, And the address space size is enough, But you can't do an "exch", And it makes you say "bletch", When you see all the RSX cruft. (There's a bunch of other funny songs and stuff there, but I'll let you guys figure out how to get them...:-) From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:40:33 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Finds Message-ID: <20000613173538.93924.qmail@hotmail.com> Went to Chicago to visit relatives over the weekend but couldn't find any decent used computer stores. Maybe they are in the suburbs? Highlight of the trip was I stayed in a hotel, room 1337. ph33r hax0rs! Went to the local salvation army and picked up an Atari 850 peripherial expansion box, a Disney Sound Sources paralell port sound box (Funny) a few assorted cables, and most importantly, a book on various expansion bussees circa 1983. Covers S-100, Tandy, Multibus, TI/99, Apple II./III. Interesting stuff, and cool pictures of wacky niche machines (The Heathkit LSI-11 Computer, The KIM-1) Happy Hunting! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 12:41:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "RE: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 9:35) References: <000001bfd53c$36005a10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > This was very amusing thanks. > > I once overheard some internal guys > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 12:46:11 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: On Haggle: H19 Terminal W/Graphics option Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613104611.00962a90@pop.sttl.uswest.net> I just placed a low-hours H19 terminal, equipped with a Northwest Digital Systems "Graphics Plus" option (Tek 4010 emulation), up on Haggle (I refuse to deal with E-pay!) for those who may be interested in such. It's at: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202337688 Thanks for looking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 13 12:51:12 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000701bfd55f$f764a1c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> >An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > Pete Well, they were salesmen making the statement . John A. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Jun 13 13:31:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jun 13, 2000 05:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <200006131831.NAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > > This was very amusing thanks. > > > > I once overheard some internal guys > > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > The Indy series had CPU upgrades available several times during its lifespan. We replaced CPU's in our Indys at least twice, becuase SGI gave us a great bargain on the upgrade price. I know the first time we upgraded was shortly after we purchased the units, so I wouldnt be surprised if the original CPU was extremely slow. -Lawrence LeMay From mark_k at iname.com Tue Jun 13 14:37:57 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Mac 800K floppy support (was Re: AppleTalk on the hoof) Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > > > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > > > the older GCR-type disks. > > > > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. > > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. I don't know where you got this misinformation from, but Power Macs do support 800K floppies (apart from recent models which don't have a floppy drive and perhaps the G3 models). Every Mac previous to the Power Macs also supports 800K floppies (apart from the very earliest ones which only had 400K drives). See the "Power Macintosh 7600 Series: Technical Specifications" at http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n19545 Other Technical Specifications documents on the TIL site for other Power Mac series computers also contain this text: * Internal Apple SuperDrive floppy disk drive -- Accepts high-density 1.4MB disks and 800K disks -- Reads, writes, and formats Macintosh, Windows, MS-DOS, OS/2, and ProDOS disks Also see http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n19545 This has a brief explanation on why access to 800K floppies is slower under newer Mac models. -- Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:37:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 12, 0 11:14:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/5413af8c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:45:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 12, 0 11:31:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2165 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/70ffe08b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:55:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 13, 0 00:00:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/ec6962b4/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:32:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 12, 0 11:00:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/94cd0f4f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:00:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 13, 0 00:29:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/15fcdc11/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:12:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 13, 0 00:48:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/e7a24c59/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:32:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000613093249.2677b43e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 13, 0 09:32:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/ce82485d/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 13:45:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt > >The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just >as valid today as it was then... Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) Besides I've got to object to the following: > But you can't do an "exch", > And it makes you say "bletch", >When you see all the RSX cruft. $ exch EXCHANGE> exi $ Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 13:57:46 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: DG MicroNova Available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613115746.009745c0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Ran across a fellow a while back who had a DG MicroNova available. Don't know if he's still got it, but you can try: arnies@ix.netcom.com Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 13 13:55:19 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> "Jay West" wrote: > > > In the back cage there are three jumper cards > > Jumper cards continue the interrupt priority chain in the backplane. If your > OS is interrupt driven, you need the jumpers for open slots. If your OS > isn't interrupt driven, you don't need these. hmmm.... then it is possible that some cards are missing because there are intermediate empty slots; here's the back cage configuration: Slot # card description ----------------------- 25 -empty- 24 BACI 12966A 23 Jumper 22 Jumper 21 BACI 12966A 20 BACI 12966A 17 BACI 12966A (note: no slots are labeled 19 or 18) 16 Jumper 15 Jumper 14 -empty- 13 -empty- 12 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB; why a second one?) 11 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB) 10 TIMEBASE GEN I was able to open the front panel (thanks, Eric) and found the following there: Slot # card description ----------------------- DCPC D.C.P.C. | Ribbon connector from front fingerpad to bckpln 111 MEMORY PROTECT 22-7931 112 MEM 22-2127 113 -empty- 114 -empty- . . . . 120 -empty- 121 256KW HSM 12749M | these three cards have their left front fingerpads 122 256KW HSM 12749M | joined by ribbon cable. Right front fingerpads 123 MEM CNTLR 2102E | not connected. And yes, the big board underneath everything is the mainboard with not a piggyback but a "piggytummy" smaller board attached to it. > Most typically in this system, the OS was genned for each card in a certain > slot. If the card positions have been changed the OS generally won't boot. > If you moved the cards, you have to regen the OS. Most likely the system > console was the baci board that was lowest in the backplane, as this one > would have the highest priority. If it was running RTE, ISTR there is way to > boot the system that tells it that the configuration has changed and where > the console and disk are. If this matches your situation, drop me an email > and I'll look it up for you. I did not move the cards around, but again, maybe some cards are missing. I don't know what OS the system was running. I guess that the first thing that I have to do now that I tested the power supply and verified that the machine (seems to) turn on, is to build a serial console cable for this. I have several cables that will fit the BACI boards, but the connectors at the other end have been cut off. Does anybody have the pin out for the finger pads in the front of the BACI boards? -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From red at bears.org Tue Jun 13 14:01:00 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000613054400.15062.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 13 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > But I think all 68k-based Macs except very early and perhaps very late ones > could handle 800K. Certainly all of the Quadras and Centrises that I've used > had no problem with it, but I didn't ever have occasion to use the last > few 68K models. I wonder if it's specifically the 400k disks that there is a problem with? You wrote that your IIci worked fine with 400k disks, which is still more than I had thought, but I wonder if a Quadra would handle a 400k disk. My Mac collection jumps from a IIsi to a PM8500, with nothing in between, so I can't try it myself. ok r. From red at bears.org Tue Jun 13 14:07:55 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. Perhaps slightly more than a story. To bring the cost down on the Indy, they were available with or without secondary cache. All R4000 Indigos have secondary cache (1 MB of it, IIRC), and this resulted in the older R4000 Indigo being noticeably quicker than most of the least expensive Indys. Certainly the Indy was available in configurations which are a good deal quicker than the fastest Indigo (150 MHz R4400), though there are operations for which the Indigo's Elan graphics are quicker than the Indy's top-of-the-line XZ graphics... ok r. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 14:16:44 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: [snip] > But this works both ways... > > I go to your shop and buy a large/heavy . You refuse to let me > dismantle it and remove the PSU so that I can carry it out to my car in 2 > sections. As a result I injure myself. I then turn round and sue you > because you refused to let me move it in the way that I considered safe. > And if I can find a mention in the service manual that it's recomended to > remove the PSU before attempting to lift the machine then I think I'd be > almost certain to win. Uh, no, at least not in the US if the shop owner has half a brain. Even if you walk in off the street there's a notion of an FOB point; up to that point the seller is responsible for the item (including moving it) regardless of if title has changed hands and after which there is no responsibility. However, if I define FOB as being the place where it sits or I hand it to you I *do not* automatically grant you permission to do what you please with it on my premises, nor do I incur any liability for refusing to allow you to do so. For example, if I sell you a television you can't demand to drive a forklift into my shop to collect it, nor can you sit down and start taking it to bits. If you do, I tell you to leave. If you don't leave, it goes from civil to criminal and the cops haul you off. In short, purchasing something from me doesn't convey to you additional rights on my property, nor does my refusal to grant you those rights cause me to incur liability. [snip] > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets Act. [snip] > > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > > *my store*! > > Remind me that if I ever shop in your store and buy something that I > can't easily lift then _you're_ carrying it out to my car. You'd better make that clear before we close the deal, because otherwise I'm under no obligation to do so. > Once it's > there, not in your shop, then I'll take it to bits... Perfectly reasonable :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 14:50:55 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: See later remarks. > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > > > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > > > choose, right?). > > > > Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent > > enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the > > States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for > > insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work > > -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my > > partner and I) assume full liability. > > But this works both ways... > > I go to your shop and buy a large/heavy . You refuse to let me > dismantle it and remove the PSU so that I can carry it out to my car in 2 > sections. As a result I injure myself. I then turn round and sue you > because you refused to let me move it in the way that I considered safe. > And if I can find a mention in the service manual that it's recomended to > remove the PSU before attempting to lift the machine then I think I'd be > almost certain to win. > > I even suspect I could win if, by you refusing to let me dismantle the > machine and lock heads, etc, then damage was caused to _my_ machine. It > doesn't matter that you sold it 'as is' -- as soon as you sold it it's > mine, and you probably can't stop me from treating it in a way to > preserve it. > > Note, I don't expect to be able to power things up. Plugging an unknown > machine into the mains is dangerous for the machine, for the person > handling it, and maybe for other people around it. I would fully > understand why shops would prevent this. > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > which is probably why surplus shops over here are often happy to let > customers take machines apart once they've bought them. It is my understanding that 'contingency fee' lawsuits are not permitted in the UK. If I am correct, that alone would account for a diminished number of suits. Funny how less worth while some things become when you have to put up your own money! - don > > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > > *my store*! > > Remind me that if I ever shop in your store and buy something that I > can't easily lift then _you're_ carrying it out to my car. Once it's > there, not in your shop, then I'll take it to bits... > > -tony > > From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 13 15:01:06 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) > > Besides I've got to object to the following: > > > But you can't do an "exch", > > And it makes you say "bletch", > >When you see all the RSX cruft. > > $ exch > EXCHANGE> exi > $ > > Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. Never used it, strictly Unix and VMS here ... From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 14:03:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > > Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the > top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets > Act. Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in the world as a result. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 15:43:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 13, 2000 12:03:27 PM Message-ID: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > > > > Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the > > top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets > > Act. > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > the world as a result. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US take away our freedom! Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when the Revolution comes"? Zane From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jun 13 15:56:46 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 13, 2000 01:43:55 PM Message-ID: <200006132056.OAA04293@calico.litterbox.com> > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? > > Zane *heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus Cybernetics company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first up against the wall when the revolution comes. Killing all the lawyers comes from Shakespeare. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Jun 13 16:05:38 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jun 13, 2000 05:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <20000613210553Z433869-15171+322@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > > This was very amusing thanks. > > > > I once overheard some internal guys > > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > There is a good deal of truth to it. The original Indy was sold without a secondary cache, which resulted in a very slow machine. Even though it had a faster processor than the Indigo, it quite often ran much slower. The original Indy was designed to be a low end workstation to pull people into the SGI line. It was designed to go head-to-head with the low end Sun workstations. This was later discovered to be a mistake, and secondary cache and faster processors were later added. The Indy continued to evolve long after the original Indigo disappeared from SGI price books. A fairer comparison would be to the Indigo II, which evolved at basically the same pace as the Indy. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 13 16:18:01 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. Message-ID: >Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now >Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors >anyway) Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake easy for a basically honest person to make. OTOH Apple II drives are pretty hard to break, --- I still have a broken one, can I fix it myself? the only thing I know is when I put a diskette in and try to read it it goes rattttatt and gets an error... :^( ---- how did you test them? ----- I connected them to my apple II and put in a known good diskette, swapping the diskette to the other drive to verify it was still known good... :^) ----- Could it have just been incompatibility? Thats the second risk, customer tests your stuff pronounces it bad, but later on it turns out they (generic they, not you) didn't know beans and the stuff is just fine (which of course you find out after customer B buys it for parts and retests later). From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 13 22:16:21 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Hello healyzh@aracnet.com On 13-Jun-00, you wrote: I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > take away our freedom! > > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? > > Zane Yes, we are made safer against our own mistakes (and stupidity), or are we? Nothing replaces good old common sense. Thre are many quotes about the legal profession, but Wm Shakespeare said it best: "First, let's kill all the lawyers" > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 15:27:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." It was Benjamin Franklin, and I know what you're talking about, but this is the totally wrong context. > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > take away our freedom! Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom from being sued when you cause injury? If we're going to talk about "freedom", let's at least put it in the proper context. > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? Until you actually need one... I'm not defending them, I'm just being realistic. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Jun 13 16:30:41 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:35 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <017a01bfd57e$9fed7c40$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer > >*heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus Cybernetics >company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first up against the >wall when the revolution comes. Although I believe a later edition of the Guide that fell through a temporal vortex described the Marketing Department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as "a bunch of mindless jerks who _were_ the first up against the wall when the revolution came". Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? Mark "Ford Prefect" Gregory From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 16:36:47 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 13, 2000 11:45:41 am" Message-ID: <200006132136.RAA04190@bg-tc-ppp766.monmouth.com> > >from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt > > > >The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just > >as valid today as it was then... > > Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) > > Besides I've got to object to the following: > > > But you can't do an "exch", > > And it makes you say "bletch", > >When you see all the RSX cruft. > > $ exch > EXCHANGE> exi > $ > > Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. > > Zane Well, it gave Dave Cutler a start in the OS business... Otherwise he'd still be at DuPont and Microsoft wouldn't have stolen WinNT. Perhaps then KL's would've been upgraded to faster hardware and the VAX/VMS OS would've never occurred. (I really like VAX/VMS though)... Perhaps there would've been the 11/68... the Jupiter machine... The 11/74... Bill Gates would've just been a Basic seller. Nah... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 15:14:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Jun 13, 0 12:16:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/fd438af9/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 13 17:05:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Minc-11 Front Panel Plates References: Message-ID: <3946B035.51B4B5D@rain.org> In trying to figure out exactly why I have these things, I couldn't come up with a good reason. There are three Minc-11 brackets and the front panel covers/plates available. If there is no interest here, I'll stick them on ebay Thursday. But until then, free to whoever needs them. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 13 17:09:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946B103.DE6E8978@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > > take away our freedom! > > Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately > deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom > from being sued when you cause injury? The word "legitimately" is being used far too freely! The other side of that "freedom to sue" is the damage it does to the "freedom to innovate." I have heard far too many people say they wouldn't support or get involved in X activity because of the possibility of lawsuits. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 17:16:53 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Let me see if I understand this : > > If I buy something from you, dismantle it (of my own free will) in your > shop and injure myself then I can sue you (and would probably win). If the practical definition of "win" is "obtain a financial settlement without admission of guilt on my part" then the answer is yes. It is generally far less expensive for an insurance company to simply write you a check and jack up my premiums than it is to litigate, even if they eventually prevail. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 17:16:12 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: "r. 'bear' stricklin" "Re: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 15:07) References: Message-ID: <10006132316.ZM6285@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 15:07, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > > Perhaps slightly more than a story. To bring the cost down on the Indy, > they were available with or without secondary cache. All R4000 Indigos > have secondary cache (1 MB of it, IIRC), and this resulted in the older > R4000 Indigo being noticeably quicker than most of the least expensive > Indys. Only the very first Indys; SGI very quickly (a few months) moved from R4000 to 4400 and then 4600, which are the same speed as, or slightly faster than, the R4K Indigo. But yes, I'd forgotten about the original R4000PC Indy, and that would account for the story. > Certainly the Indy was available in configurations which are a good deal > quicker than the fastest Indigo (150 MHz R4400), though there are > operations for which the Indigo's Elan graphics are quicker than the > Indy's top-of-the-line XZ graphics... That's certainly true, so I'm glad that one of mine is an XS24 and another is an Elan, although the R5K might make a difference even then, or so I hear on comp.sys.sgi. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 17:25:42 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay "Re: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 13:31) References: <200006131831.NAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <10006132325.ZM6291@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 13:31, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The Indy series had CPU upgrades available several times during its lifespan. > We replaced CPU's in our Indys at least twice, becuase SGI gave us a great > bargain on the upgrade price. I know the first time we upgraded was > shortly after we purchased the units, so I wouldnt be surprised if the > original CPU was extremely slow. Yes, I think the first upgrade was very soon after the launch. Ours all came with 4400's or 4600's. Anyway, if you still have any R5000's going spare, I can find homes for a couple.... :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 13 17:50:01 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000613185001.A17968@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> But you can't do an "exch", [...] >$ exch >EXCHANGE> exi No, not *that* EXCH!!! John Wilson D Bit From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 13 17:45:47 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:03 PM 6/13/00 -0700, you wrote: >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in >the world as a result. > >Sellam Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that a country where such a belief is widespread is the most unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. The only safety in the US arising from its legal system is the job safety of lawyers. Sorry for the VERY OT post, but this one I had to reply to. carlos. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 13 17:55:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 03:16:53PM -0700 References: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000613185531.B17968@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 03:16:53PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: >It is >generally far less expensive for an insurance company to simply >write you a check and jack up my premiums than it is to litigate, >even if they eventually prevail. It's cheaper in each individual case, but a big loss in the long run. They've really dug their own graves (and everyone else's too) by making frivolous lawsuits worthwhile for the lying scum who file them. They shouldn't have been so short-sighted when it started happening, and now it's too late. So now we're stuck with a lot of vendors who have this "pay me and then screw off" mentality. It's sickening. John Wilson D Bit From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 13 18:25:31 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000613192531.009f0e10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that healyzh@aracnet.com may have mentioned these words: [snip] >> Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a >> rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in >> the world as a result. >> >> Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > >I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes >something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a >little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > >I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US >take away our freedom! IIRC, that would be Ben Franklin, and I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. In the U.S. right now, people who break the law have *more* civil rights than those who don't... that's a sorry state of affairs. I think the lawsuit that cracked me up the most was the woman tried suing a pharmaceutical company that made contraceptive jelly - due to the word "jelly" she was putting it on her toast in the morning and was totally stunned when she got pregnant. - She was suing the company for all the associated costs the child would incur (medical, clothing, food, etc.) over an 18-year period.... ...All because she was too stupid to read the damn directions. Dunno if she ever won, but personally (and I must add an IMHO) a little more Darwinism in cases like this could only be a good thing... Regards, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 17:31:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > >the world as a result. > > Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, > you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. > > Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are > showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that > keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that > a country where such a belief is widespread is the most > unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead > of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. Carlos, have you ever even been out of the United States? Especially to third world countries? You'd know what I mean if you have. What you say has merit, however, you can't always expect other humans to be looking out for your well being. Especially when profit is involved. To take but one example, do you think cars would be as safe as they are today if manufacturers were not held liable for poor designs? Just something to think about. I'm not arguing this either way. I'm just reminding everyone that rarely is there ever a simple answer to these sorts of things. (There was a really funny skit on the old Saturday Night Live where Dan Akroyd would play this cheezy guy who owned a toy manufacturing company that produced such toys as Syringes in a Bag, and other toys containing razor blades, broken glass, etc.) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:39:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:07:01 -0800) References: (rdd@smart.net) Message-ID: <20000613233955.24218.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Key point is to have a REAL plan with funds etc. earmarked on the 10 and 20 > year plans for the data. Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. This subject came up on comp.arch recently, and I posted a message stating that if they aren't going to plan for data retention, I don't see why they should waste my tax dollars to collect the data in the first place. I was expecting to get flamed for that, but apparently no one must have strongly disagreed. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:45:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000613234518.24279.qmail@brouhaha.com> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > I wonder if it's specifically the 400k disks that there is a problem > with? You wrote that your IIci worked fine with 400k disks, which is still > more than I had thought, but I wonder if a Quadra would handle a 400k > disk. My Mac collection jumps from a IIsi to a PM8500, with nothing in > between, so I can't try it myself. AFAIK, all Macs that can deal with 800K can deal with 400K, at least as far as the physical format goes. Recent versions of system software have dropped support for the MFS file system. Normally 400K disks had MFS and 800K had HFS, although it was possible to force other combinations. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:47:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000613234746.24320.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony writes: > Let me see if I understand this : > > If I buy something from you, dismantle it (of my own free will) in your > shop and injure myself then I can sue you (and would probably win). > > If I buy something from you and you insist that I move it in a way that I > don't consider safe and that the manufacturer doesn't consider safe, and > injure myself, then I can't sue you. No, you can sue in the second case also. (Well, you can almost *always* sue. The real question is can you win.) From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 13 18:50:05 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds in Northern Michigan... In-Reply-To: <20000613185531.B17968@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000613195005.009c4100@mail.30below.com> Went to the local garage sales this weekend, and actually got a couple rescues: 1) a Commie 1541-II disk drive. With data cable, no PS. No price, so I asked the lady what she wanted. She says $5.00. I get this really, really pained look on my face, she says $2.00... I now have one eye closed with a look of Ooooooh... still too much. She says $1.00 -- I hand over a buck and say "Thanks." Hate to say it, tho-- If she'd have stayed at $5.00, the drive would've stayed, too. (I think she knew that...) 2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this area: I found a copy of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386, with all docs, slightly beat up box but otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I say: "Will ya take 50 cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) Anywho, that'll give you an idea of the slim pickin's around my area... Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for $300.00 (firm). Happy Hunting, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 13 19:02:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds in Northern Michigan... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000613195005.009c4100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > 2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this area: I found a copy > of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386, with all docs, slightly beat up > box but otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I say: "Will ya take 50 > cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) I have a CCdos 386 kit (release 3)and I've run it. DRI was on the right track and it was quite a bit better than MS-DOS. > Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for $300.00 (firm). I bet the reason there are a lot of them around is the price! Here thats a decent 486DX/66(or faster) that can run winders complete with tube. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 18:43:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 13, 0 12:03:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/2cea2091/attachment-0001.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 19:47:41 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: run sys$system:exchange In-Reply-To: <20000613185001.A17968@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Jun 13, 2000 06:50:01 pm" Message-ID: <200006140047.UAA04499@bg-tc-ppp705.monmouth.com> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> But you can't do an "exch", > [...] > >$ exch > >EXCHANGE> exi > > No, not *that* EXCH!!! > > John Wilson > D Bit Bring back... $ MCR FLX FLX> (I once wrote a couple of hundred lines of menuing DCL to build the Vax 11/7x0 diagnostic disks from the VAXPAX tape (or disk directory) -- this was done during the 11/780 maintenance class while being introduced to commands like copy, dir, etc ... (DEC "trained" me on the Vax after three years doing Vax work and standby in NJ). The instructor wanted it submitted to diagnostic engineering -- I went back to NJ to finish the work off and get it cleaned up -- only to find Filex was replaced with Exchange (no... not MS Exchange -- DEC got screwed with that one later...) and my work was headed for oblivion. Oh well... I still want to type MCR SYE... to see an error log and MCR AUTHORIZE. Too bad I can't run VMS 3.6 on a VaxStation 3100. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 19:51:15 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic In-Reply-To: <017a01bfd57e$9fed7c40$0200a8c0@marvin> from Mark Gregory at "Jun 13, 2000 03:30:41 pm" Message-ID: <200006140051.UAA04599@bg-tc-ppp705.monmouth.com> > Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? > > Mark "Ford Prefect" Gregory > Perhaps they should be Penril Sensitive Sunglasses. What ever happened to that old Modem vendor? I know Racal Vadic is still kind of around... in other businesses. Racal Interlan/Micom Interlan is kind of gone. Boy have a large number of the "biggies" bit the dust over the last 15 years. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 20:02:27 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946D9A3.EE7FCA9D@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > > the world as a result. > > Yes, but there's safety and safety, and I am not at all convinced that > all safety is a Good Thing. I think most of us here would agree with you. The notion that safety can be legislated or that massive awards will somehow result in "better" corporate behavior is silly. All that happens is that innovation is stifled. Aerospace is a great place to see the effects of this. In the '50s and 60's the US fielded new aircraft technology at a (comparatively) staggering rate; today we're so risk adverse that it takes decades to crank out a new design, and those designs are hardly the latest-and-greatest technology. Both of the JSF candidates have accurately been described as "ten year old technology". It's sad, really. There were a few references to the Hitchhiker's Guide in this thread, but I'd offer that they're haven't been the best choices. I nominate "When they start putting instructions on toothpicks it's time to leave the planet". -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 20:28:18 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000613233955.24218.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also decaying and partially unreadable. Basically, that is baloney. My Aunt, some sort of economic/urban planning big shot in a way I don't understand, says that it is untrue. In fact, she uses the old data from time to time. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Jun 13 20:44:13 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: <20000614014414Z434024-15170+557@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons > > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they > > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. > > Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people > also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also > decaying and partially unreadable. > The NASA one is definitely true. I was at a NASA workshop sometime around 1990 where this was discussed. One of the problems we discussed was actually using the data before it became unreadable. At that point it was estimated that only 5% of the data collected by NASA was ever read. There were several reasons stated for this: 1) NASA is very conservative in data collection, they always collected more data than they need. The main reason for this is the cost of sending out a probe, you don't want to miss something important and have send another one. 2) There is a considerable time delay in programming a probe. The probes can be programmed after launch, but due to the distances involved (and slow transmission rates), it can take a considerable length of time to send a new program. At that time (1990), the probes were programmed several weeks in advance. Again, if you see something interesting coming for the probe, there is no time to reprogram it, so you had better collect everything. 3) The volume of data was far too large for anyone to look at. NASA was looking for better ways to visualize the data, so more could be examined before it was lost. This is the main reason why I was at the workshop. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 20:45:30 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <20000613234746.24320.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > No, you can sue in the second case also. (Well, you can almost *always* > sue. The real question is can you win.) Very good point. In fact, it is the fault of the media and the public's tendency to overreact that has caused all of this lawsuit madness. Basically, it is not nearly as bad as everyone thinks. While at a horrid document scanning job once a few years back, I tackled a job that involved thousands of personal injury cases. The nature of the job had me reading (or skimming, really) the OCR'd results. Anyway, the first thing that struck me is that a huge number of cases are thrown out of court almost instantly. The second thing is that for the cases that won, damages tend to be the medical expenses and a small amount extra. In those thousands, I only saw _one_ case that resulted in a seven figure settlement, and _very_ few that were in the six figures. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 20:48:52 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:28:18 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000614014852.25506.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people > also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also > decaying and partially unreadable. In the case of NASA, I think it's true because some of the people I've heard it from are NASA employees. This doesn't constitute "proof", necessarily, but it seems somewhat credible. NASA collects one hell of a lot more data than the Census Bureau. In fact, they probably collect MANY hell of a lot mores. They still have data on 7-track tape. Well, actually they probably don't. But they do have the tapes. From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 13 22:39:39 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: Good Lord, Joe, where do you store it all??? Joe Rigdon wrote: > Here's a list of just SOME of the stuff that I've picked up in the last > two weeks: SIX Cromemco Z2-D S-100 systems with dual floppy drives and > hard drives, HP 9825B (loaded), FIVE various HP 9825 interfaces, HP 1000 > A600 computer, HP 1000 E series computer, TWO HP 9895 dual 8" floppy > drives, TWO HP 9885 single 8" floppy drives, two HP 987? printers, HP 7906 > fixed drive, TWO HP 6940 Multiprogrammers (loaded) and a HP ?? > Multiprogrammer Interface, TI Professional computer in like new condition > with original monitor and keyboard and a National Instruments HP-IB card, > and last night, a IBM AT with an 8" floppy drive controller card. That's > in addition to OVER 320 memory SIMMS, numerous cards, keyboards and other > bits and pieces. Does that sound like the kind of stuff that should be > left as scrap because I can't test it first? > > Joe From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 22:44:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Uh, no, at least not in the US if the shop owner has half a brain. Even > > if you walk in off the street there's a notion of an FOB point; up to > > that point the seller is responsible for the item (including moving it) > > regardless of if title has changed hands and after which there is no > > responsibility. However, if I define FOB as being the place where it > > sits or I hand it to you I *do not* automatically grant you permission > > to do what you please with it on my premises, nor do I incur any liability > > for refusing to allow you to do so. That certainly can't be true for all shops over here. > The USA is even more screwed up than I thought! Yes, in some ways it is, alas - it's not the same country that I remember growing up in a couple of decades ago, where people had more freedom of speech (no such thing as that political correctness lunacy) and didn't feel like they were living in a police state where spineless idiots were willing to trade freedom for safety, etc. Of course, one must remember that during the big wars (WWI and WWII), this nation's government was allowed to turn into a monster collecting more and more taxes and imposing more and more control over the lives of individuals; actually, the beginnings of that I recon were actually around the time of the Civil War. Who benefitted the most from WWII, if you think about it? Certain large multinational corporations in the U.S., Japan and Germany, etc., at the expense of lives and money stolen from taxpayers which went into their profits. Because politics here is such a screwed-up mess, it's typically the idiots with screwed-up brains who want to get involved in it, and with the help of the newspapers, and TV and radio news, more and more of which are owned by huge corporations, the idiot-puppets get elected, and, hence, the country gets more and more screwed up. Back when I was in grade school, and in some college classes as well, we were often taught, in history classes, etc. about the falls of ancient Greece and Rome, and how such things a corruption in government, etc. could cause the same thing here. Apparently few others were paying attention; people get so obsessed with little pet issues, that they don't look at the whole picture when they go to vote - plus, most people are apparently like sheep - they only want to vote for the candidate that they think is popular and will win, so, the polls (that some people believe the results of) also influence elections. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 22:48:53 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Yes, we are made safer against our own mistakes (and stupidity), or are we? > Nothing replaces good old common sense. > > Thre are many quotes about the legal profession, but Wm Shakespeare said it > best: > > "First, let's kill all the lawyers" Interestingly, consider how many of our "honorable" (snort) politicians are lawyers - quite a few of them! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 22:56:41 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Who benefitted the most from WWII, > if you think about it? The Jews and Chinese? > Because politics here is such a screwed-up mess, it's typically the [pointless rant snipped] How 'bout them old computers? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 23:01:54 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 12:03 PM 6/13/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > >the world as a result. > > > >Sellam > > Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, > you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. > > Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are > showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that > keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that > a country where such a belief is widespread is the most > unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead > of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. > > The only safety in the US arising from its legal system is > the job safety of lawyers. Quite true. Job opportunities/security for lawyers is a self fulfilling prophecy. The simple fact that one exists requires another (or more) for 'self defense', ad infinitum! - don > Sorry for the VERY OT post, but this one I had to reply to. > > carlos. > > From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 23:05:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, I'm going to be partially in agreement with Sellam Ismail on something! On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > > It was Benjamin Franklin, and I know what you're talking about, but this > is the totally wrong context. > > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > > take away our freedom! > > Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately > deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom > from being sued when you cause injury? I agree; however, I think that with the help of some bad court decisions and certain pea-brained politicians, people are misusing this freedom. The problem is that there are laws that allow for liability where no reasonable person would think there should be an issue of liability. E.g., if someone injures themselves through their own stupidity, they shouldn't be able to sue someone else, such as the person on whose property the injury occured, whether the injured party is a child or not. E.g. if I claim to be knowledgeable about electonics, and get an electic shock from testing a power supply in someone's store, whom I didn't ask for information about how to do this safely from, or get misleading information about this from, then how can it be reasonable to put the responsibility on that other person? People need to accept responsibility for their own actions - that's what is reasonable. > > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > > the Revolution comes"? > > Until you actually need one... Very true; there are some good ones out there who protect us when we need them, and to label them all as money-grubbing sheisters is not only unfair, but dangerous, as, while some of them are politicians, and some cause problems, some of them also help protect us from the damages caused by politicians, etc. Like any other group of people, they're all different; some good, some bad, some intelligent, some a few chips short of a working CPU. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 13 23:15:43 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act Message-ID: <33.66a42fb.267860ef@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > In the UK, if you buy something from a shop then it has to be 'of > merchantable quality' -- it has to do the job that a reasonable person > would expect that sort of product to do (a computer has to compute, a TV > set has to receive currently-broadcast programmes, a packet of %food has > to be edible, etc). Also, if you ask a shop owner for a product to do a > particular job ('I want a computer to run this word processor package', > 'I want a glue to stick metal') then the product he sells you has to do > that job. Yes but . . . suppose a customer comes in with a software package which has the "System Requirements" listed in the documentation. Customer takes the system, finds out software won't run, even though the stated requirements are met, and returns the system. We replace the system, and the software still won't go. Then we discover that the software is buggy, or finicky. Does the merchant still owe the customer a refund, even though there is no real fault in the hardware? This happened to me, and it wasn't any fun . . . > You can sell a defective item if you point out the defects before sale > 'This computer is an ex-demonstration model, missing box, instructions > and mouse'. In that case I can't complain later that the mouse is > missing. But if, say, the floppy drive doesn't work then I have a right > to a refund. A refund? Or replacement of the defective drive, under warranty?? Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:40:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >Carlos, have you ever even been out of the United States? Especially to >third world countries? You'd know what I mean if you have. Much of what is good here comes from a free press and the right to bear arms. And yes, I have been to the UK, and survived. ;) Canada was a bit scary, and Mexico a walk on coals. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:07:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> References: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: > I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to reach out, >even if >you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once >thought I was). > > So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're >hunting >for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a >good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never >know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal. The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every place and every owner will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull, respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today setting up a test system for monitors, and then testing monitors (between digging in every pile I could reach), and generally I get very good treatment from them. This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself though, its more like ploughing the snow off the roads. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:50:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000614014414Z434024-15170+557@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: from William Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: >> > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons >> > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they >> > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. >> >> Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people >> also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also >> decaying and partially unreadable. >> > >The NASA one is definitely true. I was at a NASA workshop >sometime around 1990 where this was discussed. One of the >problems we discussed was actually using the data before it >became unreadable. At that point it was estimated that only >5% of the data collected by NASA was ever read. There were >several reasons stated for this: > >1) NASA is very conservative in data collection, they always > collected more data than they need. The main reason for > this is the cost of sending out a probe, you don't want > to miss something important and have send another one. This is a foggy memory from the a trip to Houston, but isn't a lot of older data just printed text on paper? From kenn at bluetree.ie Wed Jun 14 05:39:43 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: VAX 6540 (?) available in Cork, Ireland Message-ID: I just heard about this: > It's a 6540 I think. About 4ft wide, 3ft deep and 6ft high. 3-phase > power, plus tape unit, console, etc. BIG motherfucker. You'd need > to find transport... If you're interested, I'll give you this guy's email address off-list. Later, Kenn From djg at drs-esg.com Wed Jun 14 06:48:36 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Part datasheets Message-ID: <200006141148.HAA22355@drs-esg.com> From djg at drs-esg.com Wed Jun 14 06:49:29 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Part datasheets try 2 Message-ID: <200006141149.HAA22364@drs-esg.com> The former pay IHS Caps datasheet service is now available for free from http://www.freetradezone.com. It has a good collection of datasheets for obsolete components not available from manufacturer sites. You do have to register and enter a company name. I used the pay CD based system when my work had it but have not done much with the online version. David Gesswein From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:19:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE04@TEGNTSERVER> > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a > saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier > freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." Ben Franklin: The man who would trade a bit of liberty for a bit of security deserves neither liberty nor security Probably still not exactly correct, it may have been "a little" instead of "a bit". Only certain source I can think of is the musical "1776" and they probably mangled the original line to make it more stage-worthy. -doug q (who would trade all the security he has for more liberty) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:20:27 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE05@TEGNTSERVER> > *heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus > Cybernetics > company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first > up against the > wall when the revolution comes. > > Killing all the lawyers comes from Shakespeare. Richard III From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:23:33 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE06@TEGNTSERVER> > Although I believe a later edition of the Guide that fell through a > temporal vortex described the Marketing Department of the Sirius > Cybernetics Corporation as "a bunch of mindless jerks who > _were_ the first > up against the wall when the revolution came". > > Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? Right next to your SEP field generator.... :-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:32:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE07@TEGNTSERVER> > What ever happened to that old Modem vendor? > I know Racal Vadic is still kind of around... in other businesses. > Racal Interlan/Micom Interlan is kind of gone. > > Boy have a large number of the "biggies" bit the dust over the last 15 > years. Did Anderson-Jacobsen survive beyond the acoustic coupler days? I have an old unit that could go up to 600 baud using Bell 103a standards, although it was difficult to find anyone who would support 600 baud using Bell 103a; 600 baud was usually Bell 202? (whatever the standard was for 1200 baud). -dq From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 14 08:03:33 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Fwd: RT-11 capable systems in Ann Arbor, MI Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000614080246.00b86690@pc> >X-Sender: jfmjfm@srvr5.engin.umich.edu (Unverified) >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:14:36 -0400 >To: microscopy@sparc5.microscopy.com >From: "John F. Mansfield" > >Subject: Surplus Equipment going cheap (not free). > >I have the following surplus equipment that is destined for the >recycle dumpster if no-one is interested. > >1. Two Tracor TN5500 XEDS systems. > a. One system has a 30Meg hard disk drive, two 5.25 Syquest >removable hard disks (both failed) and two floppy disks one 5.25" and >one 8". There are actually two 5.25" disks and two 8" disks in a >separate subsystem, but the hard ware only supports two floppies at >one time and so we have one of each set up. A standard Tracor >keyboard with keypad and monitor is supplied. The system does not >have a printer. We modified it so it would run without a printer and >if we need print out we have a couple of switch boxes that directs >the print out to a Mac (PC can be substituted). We also have the HP >plot software and this is directed to a program on the Mac that can >then send the plot to a laser printer or can save it for pasting into >word processing documents. >The system has the imaging package that will allow the computer to >control the microscope (it is setup for a JEOL 2000FX) and record >STEM and SEM images and XEDS maps. The software includes SMTF and >SQMTF. The system has an almost new refurbished light element >detector (detects down to C). System also has a license for RT-11, >the DEC operating system and it can run an FTP server for removal of >spectra and images to a remote computer. Make an offer. > > b. The second system is floppy based and also has imaging >which is setup for an SEM whose manufacturer evades my memory, but if >anyone is interested I will obviously find out for you. This system >has a Be window XEDS detector with it. Make an offer. > >2. Liquid nitrogen cold stage for JEOL 2000 FX Gatan double tilt (old >model 613 upgraded to double tilt). Sample airlock pumps dewar jacket. >Make an offer. > >3. A Perkin Elmer 5400 data acquisition computer (6809 chip running IDRIS). > >I also have a Be window XEDS detector that is non functional that >fits the high angle port of a JEOL 2000FX > >In each case the buyer pays shipping. > >-- > >Dr. John Mansfield CPhys MInstP >North Campus Electron Microbeam Analysis Laboratory >417 SRB, University of Michigan >2455 Hayward, Ann Arbor MI 48109-2143 >Phone: (734) 936-3352 FAX (734) 763-2282 >Cellular Phone: (734) 358-7555 >(Leaving a phone message at 936-3352 is preferable to 358-7555) >Email: jfmjfm@engin.umich.edu >URL: http://emalwww.engin.umich.edu/people/jfmjfm/jfmjfm.html >Location: Lat. 42? 16' 48" Long. 83? 43' 48" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jun 14 10:02:32 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000614080232.0098e100@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 01:07 14-06-2000 -0800, you wrote: >The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every place and every owner >will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on >different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull, >respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to >time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today Couldn't have said it better. I still have a good working relationship with some of the folks at Weird Stuff, despite the physical distance, as does a friend of mine who's local to them. >This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself though, its more >like ploughing the snow off the roads. The effort is usually worth it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 14 10:49:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE07@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Did Anderson-Jacobsen survive beyond the acoustic coupler days? Very much so. I've got many AJ modems in my collection, going up to 2400 bps. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 14 12:30:03 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > Much of what is good here comes from a free press and the right to bear arms. Well, we did have a free press at one point in time, however, with even small local town newspapers being gobbled up by big city newspapers that are owned by large media conglomerates that are well intertwined with large multinational corporations and the influential corruption addicts and other goings on in Washington, D.C., competent reporting is generally intermixed with carefully contrived propaganda, created for the purpose of playing with people's minds in order to move us closer towards a totalitatian one world government. If the minds of so many people weren't so focused on what I call "distractionist topics," which are frequently in the news and topics of debate between politicians, such as education funding, abortion, various political sex scandals, race-related issues, politically correct pettiness, etc., which serve as detractions from other issues with further reaching implications, such as the dangers of increasing federal government, as well as state and local government - often under the influence of the federal government, control over our day to day lives, there would probably be a strong revolt. An interesting quotation: [We] should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when corruption in this as in the country from which we derive our origin will have seized the heads of government and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic and will be alike influenced by the same causes. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIII, 1782. ME 2:164 What too many people overlook is the main reason for the right to bear arms. It's not so just for protection from criminals, but for our own protection against a government that restricts our freedom; I'm sure that many of you, hopefully, are familiar with the writings of Thomas Jefferson pertaining to this, such as the following: What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, freedom in the world. Thoughts? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 12:28:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <33.66a42fb.267860ef@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 14, 0 00:15:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2654 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/38fc30ad/attachment-0001.ksh From red at bears.org Wed Jun 14 12:52:07 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:36 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what > role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, > freedom in the world. Thoughts? Dude, it's egregiously off-topic. This is not the libertarian list, it is the classic computer list. Give it a rest. ok r. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 13:21:56 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation Message-ID: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> Despite the fact that every term program under the sun seems to support Tek 4014/5, I cannot find a description of the control sequences anywhere (just a reference to the termcap entry, but I want the *graphics* control sequences, not the terminal ones). Does anyone know where I might find a listing of them? Until then, I'll use GNUplot ;-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Eat healthy, stay fit, DIE ANYWAY! ----------------------------------------- From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jun 14 12:49:02 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO References: fromWilliam Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, Anybody knows, if they still are available ? If yes, where ? cheers, emanuel From ss at allegro.com Wed Jun 14 13:38:45 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 power suppply question Message-ID: <39476EC5.31003.EAC2824@localhost> Hi, I recently found a Lexmark "Lexbook MB10" ... with no docs, no power supply. The back of the computer says the power supply should be 12 V DC, but has no mention of the polarity! Does anyone have this oddball computer, and can they tell me the polarity of the adapter, please? BTW, this Lexbook looks like IBM's answer to the HP Omnibook 425. In web searching, I found several references to other Lexbook models (including the SE10), but none to the MB10. Lexmark's web site was an example of corporate stonewalling (not quite the word I want): since it's obsolete, they have no information on it, and don't even admit (via their search engine) that it might have once existed! Altavista found a single Lexmark.com web page about "Y2K compliance" ...which basically says: hey, it's obsolete, we didn't test it, buy something newer. thanks, Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jun 14 13:53:51 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 References: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00ff01bfd631$e31e2b50$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: sjm To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 23:03 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 > Hey teen gang, ? ;-) > Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like > to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, > and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can > avoid it. There is no way i know of, to still get a Ultrix. BTW, the last one was 4.5. > (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. > But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of > mortal men.) Anyway, look for the Y2K CD also. THIS one is harder to find. And with 4.4 or 4.5, you can't even adjust your date today ... cheers, emanuel From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 14 14:07:21 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO In-Reply-To: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> (emu@ecubics.com) References: fromWilliam Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <20000614190721.1659.qmail@brouhaha.com> "emanuel stiebler" asks: > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? Anchor Electronics in Santa Clara, CA. NOT the one in Biloxi, MS. I haven't found a web page for them. Check with directory assistance. In general you may have better luck searching for the 82C55, which is still being made. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 14:15:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE0F@TEGNTSERVER> I'd be shocked if you can't get them from Radio Shack. -dq p.s. I got at least one laying around but they're OOP (out of production) I think I'll have to hang onto it. > -----Original Message----- > From: emanuel stiebler [mailto:emu@ecubics.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:49 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: 8255 PIO > > > Hi, > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? > > cheers, > emanuel > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 14 14:40:37 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO Message-ID: <000614154037.202016dd@trailing-edge.com> >Anybody knows, if they still are available ? >If yes, where ? Anyplace that sells older Intel chips certainly has them. Jameco, in particular, has both the "regular" and CMOS versions, and with a choice of speed grades: 52724 8255 IC,MPU,8255(D71055C NEC) 3.95 3.59 _____ 52732 8255A-5 IC,MPU,8255A-5(8255AC-2 NEC) 4.95 4.49 _____ 52417 82C55A IC,MPU,82C55A (MB89255A) 3.95 3.59 _____ 52425 82C55A-5 IC,MPU,82C55A-5 3.95 3.59 _____ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 14 14:41:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO In-Reply-To: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi, > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? Yes, and JDR for one. Many others I'm sure, it was used as a XT keyboard interface so there are XT baord you can likely just unplug it from. How many do you need? FYI: the 8255-5 is the same part (faster with a bit more drive). Allison From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 14 13:45:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what > role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, > freedom in the world. Thoughts? Please. This is as far off the topic of classic computers as you can get, no matter how you try to spin it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 14 14:54:35 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Despite the fact that every term program under the sun seems to support > Tek 4014/5, I cannot find a description of the control sequences anywhere > (just a reference to the termcap entry, but I want the *graphics* control > sequences, not the terminal ones). Does anyone know where I might find a > listing of them? Yes. :-) I just dug up my Tektronix 4114 Display Terminal Operator's Manual and found the following beginning on page C-4: List of Escape Sequences; each escape sequence is listed alongside it's corresponding command and setup command. For example: Ec(I)(A) Set-GIN-Cursor None . . . Ec(L)(X) Set-Dialog-Area-Position DAPOSITION Is that what you're looking for? If so, e-mail me your snail-mail address and I'll send you photocopies of these escape sequences. BTW, Does anyone on this list have, or know where I can obtain, service data for my Tektronix model 4014 terminal? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 14 14:59:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) Message-ID: <3948002A.7403.1A8011BD@localhost> > > Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in > > computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages > > instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to > > be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, > > then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very > > much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain > > old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep > > from going out of use? > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > "non-windows" issue. Well, not exactly - Windows IS NOT using 8859-1 - and I woundn't considere the usage of 8859 as something to harm classic system users nor users of non win sytems - in fact, 8859 is only in use among Unix stuff, and 8859 is probably the most 'classic friendly' way of an extended 8-Bit coding since it leaves the 'high bit set' control codes (80-9F) unasigned. 8859 is eventualy one of the few standards where still people with real knowledge have been involved and tried to create the least harmfull solution. And to avoide some misconceptions, RTF, HTML, or whatever fancy formating has _nothing_ to do with 8859 (the code is not responsible for beeing used by some other stuff :). 8859-x is todays ASCII. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 15:04:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 14, 0 11:21:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2021 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/7c0decbc/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 15:10:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 14, 0 03:54:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/d2e001e5/attachment-0001.ksh From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jun 14 15:19:15 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: OT Vast amounts of NASA data in weird formats (Long) Message-ID: Now that the subject line somewhat matches the topic. NASA and other unnamed government agencies collect "LOTS" of data. They have lots of tapes, some ASCII card images on tape, and other raw formats. Now when a project is winding down do you think anyone "cares"/spends money to transfer any data into newer formats. The original software that was written probably handles the data and works OK. I understand that lots of LANDSAT data has cloud cover obscuring it. Do you save even the "apparently" worthless stuff? The first thing any engineer/programmer tries is to pack the data onto the tape as efficiently as possible. 12 bit pixels get stored 2 pixels in every 3 bytes. Everybody used different methods to handle uneven numbers of pixels, including padding, and truncation. How do you decide how the data was stored. I'm sure the paper that documents the data format is detached from the physical tape. The short answer is that when data is collected no one has any idea of what eventually may be done with the data. They only expend as much time, energy, and money as the initial project seems to justify. I will try and find my copy of a GAO report that I purchased on the magnitude of the data storage/retention problem. They had pictures of doors in the data vault being held open by stacks of tapes. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu Data Hound extraordinary, I'm burying my floppy disks for posterity. Maybe we should use gold floppy disks will not oxidize and absorb moisture in any short term interval. From ss at allegro.com Wed Jun 14 15:26:13 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 power suppply question In-Reply-To: <39476EC5.31003.EAC2824@localhost> Message-ID: <394787F5.4041.F0E9092@localhost> Re: > I recently found a Lexmark "Lexbook MB10" ... with > Lexmark's web site was an example of corporate stonewalling I'd posted a note to several addresses within lexmark.com, asking for information about the Lexbook MB10 last night. Today, I got an email from someone there, offering me a free adapter! Unfortunately, it was an adapter for a Lexbook SE10 (aka ThinkPad 500), which appears to be a different computer (and, one using different voltage :( A ThinkPad 500 is 7.23" deep, my MB10 is 6.5" deep (and has only a 9 pin serial, and 25 pin parallel connector on the back). Oh well... Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 14 16:14:21 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 14, 2000 09:04:35 PM Message-ID: <200006142114.OAA04639@shell1.aracnet.com> OK, for all I know everyone that is interested in such stuff already knows about this. However, I just ran across this, and it sounds like something of interest to some of the list members (basically because it's apparently software for 6809 SWTP boxes). Remember I've no idea what this stuff is. Zane http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/index.html "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive UniFLEX'09 for SWTP & Gimix - Plus ALL Products Ever Developed! The UniFLEX'09 Archive represents ALL known products that were developed / or adapted by Technical Systems Consultants, Inc. (TSC), from late in 1979 through to 1989 when, at that time, the Company and UniFLEX O/S were sold to an "investor." The 6809 versions were NOT part of that fateful episode - so, they were put away in a storage room and eventually lost. " From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 16:38:18 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 14, 0 09:04:35 pm" Message-ID: <200006142138.OAA06344@oa.ptloma.edu> ::OK, to get it into graphics mode you send it a GS (Group Separator, 0x1d) ::character. The first vector drawn after entering graphics mode will be ::dark (not displayed, a move rather than a draw)_unless_ the GS is ::immediately followed by a BEL (Bell, 0x07) character. If it is, then the ::first vector is drawn. All subsequent vectors are darwn. [excellent stuff snipped] Okay, that seems simple enough :-P, but how do I plot individual points, say? What I'm writing is a Tek image viewer so that I can use a dummy terminal and Lynx to still be able to view pictures. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Art is anything you can get away with. -- Marshall McLuhan ----------------- From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 14 16:45:52 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: You think you can't find anything! (Was: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds...) Message-ID: <20000614214552.20729.qmail@hotmail.com> >>2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this >>area: I found a >>copy of Digital Research's Concurrent >>DOS 386, with all docs, slightly >>beat up box but >>otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I >>say: >>"Will ya take 50 >>cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) > >I have a CCdos 386 kit (release 3)and I've run it. DRI >was on the right >track and it was quite a bit better >than MS-DOS. > >>Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for >>$300.00 (firm). > >I bet the reason there are a lot of them around is the >price! Here thats >a decent 486DX/66(or faster) that can >run winders complete with tube. > >Allison You think you people can't find anything! Pickin's are so slim out here, last time I picked up anything interesting was right about early March or so. My point is simply this: If there is anything I have learned in this long, strange trip that is life, it is to never complain about anything, there is always someone who has it worse than you do. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 17:09:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006142138.OAA06344@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 14, 0 02:38:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/9e1a2d18/attachment-0001.ksh From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Jun 14 17:24:16 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home Message-ID: <6d.527f16c.26796010@aol.com> This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor (probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. Let me know. Glen 0/0 From mark.champion at am.sony.com Wed Jun 14 17:50:11 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: <200006142138.OAA06344@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <00dc01bfd652$e67a4ba0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> The Tek 4014 had a mode called "Point Plot State". In this mode, only the final vector endpoints are plotted. You enter "Point Plot State" from "Vector State" or "Alpha State" with the FS character. Some Tek 4014 emulators do not implement "Point Plot State" correctly or at all, so you may want to plot your points using normal "Vector State" commands. For this, just send a GS character followed by the point location (dark vector) followed by the point location again (light vector with zero length). Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 2:38 PM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > ::OK, to get it into graphics mode you send it a GS (Group Separator, 0x1d) > ::character. The first vector drawn after entering graphics mode will be > ::dark (not displayed, a move rather than a draw)_unless_ the GS is > ::immediately followed by a BEL (Bell, 0x07) character. If it is, then the > ::first vector is drawn. All subsequent vectors are darwn. > > [excellent stuff snipped] > Okay, that seems simple enough :-P, but how do I plot individual points, > say? > > What I'm writing is a Tek image viewer so that I can use a dummy > terminal and Lynx to still be able to view pictures. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Art is anything you can get away with. -- Marshall McLuhan ----------------- From mark.champion at am.sony.com Wed Jun 14 18:01:03 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes Message-ID: <00e601bfd654$6b02b640$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> I have 30 small (6" dia) VAX tapes (Opus 6250) and 12 large (7" dia) VAX tapes (Scotch 700). I believe the small tapes are 600' x 1/2" and the large tapes are 700' x 1/2". I think they have all been written on once. Are these worth anything to anyone? What should I do with them? Throw them away? Give them away? List on Ebay? Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 18:23:40 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 14, 0 11:09:44 pm" Message-ID: <200006142323.QAA12876@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Remember that the original Tektronix unit was a vector display (not a ::raster scanned unit), so the whole thing is based on drawing vectors. I was still hoping though! :-) What I ended up doing was the same thing you suggested, sending the vector twice. I made up a mini-"RLE" mode where it would turn a line of black pixels into two vectors rather than a vector pair for every point, and together with a contrast adjust that turned down dithering it came out very well. It's not too quick but then neither is the C128 or the Mac IIsi. pnmtotek :-) is in Perl. I can share it with the list if people like; it's short and a terrible example of Perl programming. I'm sure people can improve on it; I'm just going to see if I can turn it into C first. It takes any P6 portable anymap from, say djpeg or NetPBM, and displays it in Tek. ::It would be a lot more fun to use a real Tekky terminal for this ;-) Yeah, but when all you have is Commodore Kermit and a IIsi with NCSA Telnet 2.6, you take what you can get ;-) Surfing the web on a 4014 ... -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 18:25:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home In-Reply-To: <6d.527f16c.26796010@aol.com> Message-ID: >This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire >it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor >(probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. >From where? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 18:29:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <00dc01bfd652$e67a4ba0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> from "Mark Champion" at Jun 14, 0 03:50:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000615/633d7793/attachment-0001.ksh From mark.champion at am.sony.com Wed Jun 14 19:58:49 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: Message-ID: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Tony, I believe you are correct regarding the EGM. Thanks for clarifying that point. Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML compatible email programs have this capability. The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > [Please could you set your mail software to limit the line length to < 80 > characters] > > > > > > The Tek 4014 had a mode called "Point Plot State". In this mode, only the > > final vector endpoints are plotted. You enter "Point Plot State" from > > "Vector State" or "Alpha State" with the FS character. > > According to the manual, this mode (and incremental plot mode, etc) is > only available if you have an EGM (Enhanced Graphics Module, Option 34) > installed in the 4014. This appears to consist of an extra PCB (Discrete > Plot Card) and replacements for a lot of the other boards. > > I think I could justify that a 4014 emulator need not support this mode :-) > > > > > Some Tek 4014 emulators do not implement "Point Plot State" correctly or at > > all, so you may want to plot your points using normal "Vector State" > > commands. For this, just send a GS character followed by the point > > location (dark vector) followed by the point location again (light vector > > with zero length). > > This is the documented way to do it on all 4014s. > > -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 14 21:05:11 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes In-Reply-To: Anyone interested in VAX tapes (Mark Champion) References: <00e601bfd654$6b02b640$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <14664.14807.254349.568949@phaduka.neurotica.com> I'd suggest either giving them away (post a "who wants these" sort of message here, for example) or putting them up on eBay. Throwing things in the trash, especially things which...well, aren't trash, is never a good solution. -Dave McGuire On June 14, Mark Champion wrote: > I have 30 small (6" dia) VAX tapes (Opus 6250) and 12 large (7" dia) VAX tapes (Scotch 700). > > I believe the small tapes are 600' x 1/2" and the large tapes are 700' x 1/2". > > I think they have all been written on once. > > Are these worth anything to anyone? > > What should I do with them? Throw them away? Give them away? List on Ebay? > > Mark Champion > Sony Electronics > 206-524-0014 > mark.champion@am.sony.com > > > > From west at tseinc.com Wed Jun 14 21:02:05 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> <20000613055231.15127.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000b01bfd66d$b51fc240$0101a8c0@jay> So far, all the HP 21mx line that I've found uses the same key. Just let me know where to send one and I'll get a copy made and send it to ya. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:52 AM Subject: Re: New find: HP 1000 E series > Carlos wrote about an HP 1000 E-series: > > I have not been able to open the front panel > > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > > what's in the front card cage; > > One of the screws behind the front panel "flange", when removed, will > cause the panel latch assembly to fall to the bottom of the machine, > and the front panel to flop open. It is then a simple matter to remove > the lock and take it to a locksmith to either get a key made or get it > rekeyed. It's also very easy to reassemble. > > > > From west at tseinc.com Wed Jun 14 21:08:54 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Fw: New find: HP 1000 E series Message-ID: <001f01bfd66e$a90532a0$0101a8c0@jay> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay West To: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:07 PM Subject: Re: New find: HP 1000 E series > You wrote.... > You wrote... > > Slot > > # card description > > ----------------------- > > 25 -empty- > > 24 BACI 12966A > > 23 Jumper > > 22 Jumper > > 21 BACI 12966A > > 20 BACI 12966A > > 17 BACI 12966A (note: no slots are labeled 19 or 18) > > That's because the slot numbering is octal. > > > 16 Jumper > > 15 Jumper > > 14 -empty- > > 13 -empty- > > 12 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB; why a second one?) > > 11 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB) > > 10 TIMEBASE GEN > > Very likely there is a two board controller missing - did you say you have a > separate 7970 tape drive? If it's non-HP-IB, then those two missing boards > are tape-1 and tape-2. You'd want those :) > > > Slot > > # card description > > ----------------------- > > DCPC D.C.P.C. | Ribbon connector from front fingerpad to bckpln > > 111 MEMORY PROTECT 22-7931 > > 112 MEM 22-2127 > > 113 -empty- > > 114 -empty- > > . . > > . . > > 120 -empty- > > 121 256KW HSM 12749M | these three cards have their left front > > fingerpads > > 122 256KW HSM 12749M | joined by ribbon cable. Right front finger > > pads > > 123 MEM CNTLR 2102E | not connected. > > Memory options - DMA (DCPC), Memory Protect, and Extended Memory ( > 32KW). > > > I did not move the cards around, but again, maybe some cards are > > missing. > > I don't know what OS the system was running. > > RTE, DOS, BCS? I dunno - I'd make a wild stab at what you've said so far > about the machine that it was RTE. > > > I guess that the first thing that I have to do now that I tested the > > power supply and verified that the machine (seems to) turn on, > > is to build a serial console cable for this. I have several cables > > that will fit the BACI boards, but the connectors at the other > > end have been cut off. Does anybody have the pin out for the > > finger pads in the front of the BACI boards? > > I use 12531 controllers. I do have a few baci boards, but I'm not sure what > docs I have on them. I'll look, but anyone else have this handy? > > Jay West > From sring at uslink.net Wed Jun 14 22:11:23 2000 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home References: <6d.527f16c.26796010@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201bfd677$643f8540$8657ddcc@uslink.net> I am interested in the Tandy 1000 EX. What is included with it. Where is it located? From: "Stephanie Ring" sring@uslink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 5:24 PM Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home > This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire > it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor > (probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. > > Let me know. > > Glen > 0/0 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Jun 14 22:35:53 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at Jun 08, 2000 08:09:11 PM Message-ID: <200006150335.UAA18492@eskimo.com> > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) There have been a number of programs that use the graphics mode of a dot-matrix printer to print pages sideways (you might say in landscape mode). One of those programs was even _called_ Sideways. They were usually aimed at spreadsheet users, because spreadsheets are much wider than they are tall. Your disk could be one of these programs. -- Derek From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Jun 14 22:57:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: OT: mechanical computer monitor Message-ID: <200006150357.UAA19351@eskimo.com> We already had the "mechanical fax machine" thread... here's a (partly) mechanical computer monitor. It uses classic technology (the Nipkov, or I think also Nipkow, disk) but it shows a computer-generated digital signal rather than an analog signal. So it's computer-related! :) http://www.media.mit.edu/~rehmi/rotoscope/ The creator wants to make a "wind-up browser" in the same way you can get wind-up radios and flashlights. -- Derek From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Jun 14 23:21:44 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX free to good home Message-ID: <9.6cab669.2679b3d8@aol.com> In a message dated 06/14/2000 7:32:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > >This unit looks okay but is untested. If anyone has any interest I'll fire > >it up. You can have it for the cost of shipping. It came with a monitor > >(probably mono or CGA), but I doubt anyone wants to pay the freight on it. > > From where? Oops -- forgot to mention I'm in Florida. Glen 0/0 From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jun 15 00:16:02 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Fw: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: "Jay West"'s message of "Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:08:54 -0500" References: <001f01bfd66e$a90532a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <200006150516.WAA88233@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Jay West" wrote: > I use 12531 controllers. I do have a few baci boards, but I'm not > sure what docs I have on them. I'll look, but anyone else have this > handy? Looks like I have manuals (installation/service/reference and diagnostic) for these (12966A) and they shouldn't be buried too deep, maybe I can look for them tomorrow or (more likely) this weekend. -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 15 03:30:08 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: "Mark Champion" "Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation" (Jun 14, 17:58) References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 14, 17:58, Mark Champion wrote: > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML compatible email programs have this capability. No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) As you see from the above, you lose the quoting when most software does the wrapping after the event. It's an accepted convention to keep lines short -- and I seem to remember we had this discussion a few months ago? > The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep the correct indentations. Particularly since not everyone uses the same quoting characters (I use "> " but others may use "<" or ":" with or without a following space). > If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. Yes please. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 15 03:13:38 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive" (Jun 14, 14:14) References: <200006142114.OAA04639@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10006150913.ZM8060@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 14, 14:14, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > OK, for all I know everyone that is interested in such stuff already knows > about this. Possibly, but it's an excellent resource -- and as the web page says, it may not be around for ever (hint). > However, I just ran across this, and it sounds like something > of interest to some of the list members (basically because it's apparently > software for 6809 SWTP boxes). > > Remember I've no idea what this stuff is. It's just what it says it is -- the FLEX and UniFLEX operating system software (related to OS/9) for SWTPC 6809 systems. Randy spent a lot of time and effort tracking this down about five years ago; we exchanged some email because I had what appeared to be some FLEX stuff on 8" but no machine to read it, and Randy eventually found it elsewhere. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 07:19:07 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Good morning, all... The subject line above might be a bit misleading. In the short time I've been subscribed to the list, I've seen a lot of negative criticism of E-Bay, or rather, of trying to buy things found on E-Bay. The criticisms all seem to concern how much an item on E-Bay ends up costing. What I guess I haven't seen said here is an acknowledgement that the high prices are a result of parties bidding against each other. I realize that in some cases, some shill bidding may be going on, but most of the time, I think I'm just seeing prices go high because people really want an item. Now, as to why an original IMSAI will go for $1200 when you can take about $800 and buy a brand new one with a Z-80-descended processor and a meg of bank-switched RAM, is beyond me. OTOH, I see SOLs going for for high prices, and they don't make those anymore. But I've been able to find great buys on items that aren't quite so popular, like TI Silent700 terminals, older wide-carriage printers, and so on. Having said that, one item I'd been trying to buy for a while is a Wyse 50 terminal, with a preferences for an amber screen. The ambers seem to be more rare, and command a higher price on E-Bay. Everytime one is for sale, someone goes over my max price, and I don't get a terminal. So, I decided to surf the web more broadly one day (and not specifically looking at other auction sites), when lo and behold, I find a guy up in Michigan who has an amber Wyse 50 for sale; he threw in a modem and a serial cable and shipped it to me for a mere $25.00. It's a clean unit with no visible screen burn. The F13 keycap comes off easily; other than that, it's a fine example of what became my favorite computer terminal. In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too high. regards, -doug quebbeman From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Jun 15 07:16:45 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Fw: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: <200006150516.WAA88233@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Jay West"'s message of "Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:08:54 -0500"> <001f01bfd66e$a90532a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000615081645.011e9d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Thanks; I really appreciate that. regards, carlos. At 10:16 PM 6/14/00 -0700, you wrote: >"Jay West" wrote: >> I use 12531 controllers. I do have a few baci boards, but I'm not >> sure what docs I have on them. I'll look, but anyone else have this >> handy? > >Looks like I have manuals (installation/service/reference and >diagnostic) for these (12966A) and they shouldn't be buried too deep, >maybe I can look for them tomorrow or (more likely) this weekend. > >-Frank McConnell From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 08:22:23 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Something of possible interest to the VAX/VMS Crowd Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE13@TEGNTSERVER> A friend in OZ was looking for info on how MS language translators (old ones) write debugging info into .OBJ files for the old Codeview debugger, and he found this item clearly not related to his search, but of possible interest to friends of VAXen: http://research.compaq.com/SRC/m3sources/html/codeview/src/oldCodeView.m3.ht ml get it while you can, I don't think this site is meant for the perusal of mere mortals... -dq From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 15 08:57:08 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: >In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves >to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't >avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too >high. It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in listing fees, sales percentages, etc. And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either. The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of Greed" in the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the immense size they are today, I think I can say with confidence that it's just "not fun" any more. When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they charge a percentage of the sale. I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 09:14:37 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Looking for F13 keycap for Wyse 50 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE15@TEGNTSERVER> Anybody out there got a dead Wyse 50 keyboard from which they could spare a keycap for F13? tia, -doug quebbeman From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 15 09:35:29 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > The subject line above might be a bit misleading. > In the short time I've been subscribed to the list, > I've seen a lot of negative criticism of E-Bay, or > rather, of trying to buy things found on E-Bay. That's right, and for good reason. > The criticisms all seem to concern how much an > item on E-Bay ends up costing. What I guess I > haven't seen said here is an acknowledgement > that the high prices are a result of parties > bidding against each other. I realize that in That's the reason it's unpopular and referred to as e-bilk. Please allow me to explain. For years (at least a decade), many of us became used to seeing things advertised at a certain price on Usenet newsgroups, or place "wanted" ads in the newsgroups. Prices were often seen as "[some random price] or best offer." When we found what we were looking for, the first one to reply to a posting was usually the one who got what was advertised, and, we could haggle with the seller over the price and usually pay a fair price for something or get it at a very low price... sometimes for the cost of shipping. A lot of times, this stuff was basically surplus from some company wanting to get rid of stuff or someone cleaning out their garage of stuff that would have otherwise gone out as garbage. Then, along came a few people who decided to auction stuff of on newsgroups, not content to sell it to the first person who contacted them, then, there was e-bilk, and many of the ads on Usenet disappeared, or else began to announce something that was going to be auctioned off on e-bilk. I think its fair to say that many of us "collect" older systems, particularly those who have been doing it for quite a while, are doing it as a hobby - for fun, not profit. We're not collecting systems like baseball-card, art and coin collectors; we obtain systems for hack value, because we just like playing with them, not because we're looking for investment items. Of course, over the past few years, many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer collecting" seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who are bidding high prices on e-bilk. Now, do you understand? I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 10:11:22 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE19@TEGNTSERVER> ..snip.. > Then, along came a few people who decided to auction stuff of on > newsgroups, not content to sell it to the first person who contacted > them, then, there was e-bilk, and many of the ads on Usenet > disappeared, or else began to announce something that was going to be > auctioned off on e-bilk. ..snip.. > Now, do you understand? I used to do the exact same thing. During a period of marginal income, I sold an Altair 8800 manual I'd been holding on to every since the Popular Electronics article (from which I ordered just the manual). I sold it during an upswing in the popularity of Microsoft stuff, advertising it as "the oldest Microsoft BASIC manual." Asked and got $50 for it. Then recently, when real estate taxes became suddenly due (long story), I needed money fast. I had a 1983 Audi Quattro sitting in the driveway, rusting, a project car that was starting to look like it would never get a timeslice. So I posted it for sale on the Quattro list. I got 5 interested parties within 24 hours; within 48 that became 3 serious inquiries. By 72 hours it was down to two people, one came down that day to examine the car, brought a check with him. I really didn't think he was serious and had been certain the other guy would end up with the car. I was wrong; the guy with the check was serious, I needed the money immediately, so I sold it. The other guy was furious and now won't speak to me. I wish to God I'd sold it in auction format, whether on E-Bay or not. I'd have gotten what I paid for it, plus more, instead of taking a $1500 loss. > I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay > and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding > things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price. R.D., you and others may have more faith that the long-sought- after item in front of you on E-Bay will be available later somewhere else in better shape for even cheaper; I guess I lack faith. When I see what I want and I want it badly enough, I'll pay the going rate to get it. Sometimes I regret it. I do understand taking a stand; I won't eat at the McDonald's that's closest to my office because one day I went there and a busload of school children were on some kind of field trip and being served to the exclusion of adults with 30-minute lunch breaks. The adults supervising the children, and those running the store, could not only not imagine why I was upset, but thought I was out of place for even suggesting that they should have scheduled their trip for another part of the day. I don't like the way they do business so I won't do business with them. Nyah. But I love the new McExtra or whatever it's called and I gotta drive way outta my way to get one because I've chosen to take this stand. Maybe someday, E-Bay will piss me off enough I'll take my business elsewhere. But for now, if I don't like the price, I just don't bid. regards, doug quebbeman From kenn at bluetree.ie Thu Jun 15 10:11:45 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > looking for investment items. Of course, over the past few years, > many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer collecting" > seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect > computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the > entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing > what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who > are bidding high prices on e-bilk. And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time. Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately. Vultures... Later, Kenn From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 15 11:09:27 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE19@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Now, do you understand? > > I used to do the exact same thing. During a period of marginal It seems that we're both much more in agreement with this situation than I realized; we both understand the usefulness of Usenet and how much fun it could be to purchase things at bargain prices and haggle over prices. On the other hand, I can understand the neeed for a seller to try to maximize his gains from the sale of an item, particularly in cases such as your Audi which was a restoration project. Let's say someone purchased a rare DataGobbler Model XYZ9, that was a rusting hulk, missing various ICs, wires disconnected, smashed light bulbs, etc. and spend years reverse engineering it, sanding and re-painting the chasisto make it look like new, finding replacement components, reconnecting everything, and writing some rather neat hacks to run on it. To sell that to a haggling buyer on Usenet at some low price would not be sensible; the restorer would most likely want, and deserve, to get a very good price in order to part with this, whcih would probably be difficult to do, and, hence, auctioning it off to the highest bidder, with the beginning price being set somewhat high, would be, I think, most reasonable. On the other hand, when some random company has just decommissioned a fully depreciated DataGobbler Model XYZ9, and reaped the tax benefits for this depreciation, and is about to toss it into the scrap heap and get perhaps $25 for it as scrap value after someone from the scrap dealer shows up and spends 2 hours taking it apart to move it, and it has no sentimental value, well, then, it seems only logical that it should go to some haggler on usenet to take home as a bargain find. > I wish to God I'd sold it in auction format, whether on > E-Bay or not. I'd have gotten what I paid for it, plus > more, instead of taking a $1500 loss. I'm sorry to hear about your taking that loss. > R.D., you and others may have more faith that the long-sought- > after item in front of you on E-Bay will be available later > somewhere else in better shape for even cheaper; I guess I > lack faith. When I see what I want and I want it badly enough, > I'll pay the going rate to get it. Sometimes I regret it. Yep... I've done that as well, but I've also found great bargains like a free 11/44 system with a printing console, RL02s and a couple of 11/03s with RX02 drives - of course, it took many hours of difficult work to take the dirty, dusty, systems apart, get them home, etc. ...and, one day I may get the 11/44 running again, as soon as I fix a CPU board problem, once I find probes/pods for my Gould logic analyzer (a cheap hamfest find)... anyone know where to find these? > I do understand taking a stand; I won't eat at the McDonald's > that's closest to my office because one day I went there and > a busload of school children were on some kind of field trip > and being served to the exclusion of adults with 30-minute > lunch breaks. The adults supervising the children, and those > running the store, could not only not imagine why I was upset, > but thought I was out of place for even suggesting that they > should have scheduled their trip for another part of the day. That was most inconsiderate of the store; they could have had a couple of registers open to serve the adults as well as serving the busload of children. All were paying customers, but, that bus-trip could have been coordinated with the McDonalds so as to cause the least amount of inconvenience for everyone. > But I love the new McExtra or whatever it's called and I gotta > drive way outta my way to get one because I've chosen to take > this stand. Maybe someday, E-Bay will piss me off enough I'll > take my business elsewhere. But for now, if I don't like the > price, I just don't bid. Of course, we've both probably heard the saying "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face." Regards, R. D. Davis -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 15 11:28:08 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> from Bruce Lane at "Jun 15, 2000 06:57:08 am" Message-ID: <200006151628.JAA20423@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > sense. In other words, you're annoyed that someone might want the same item you do, and might be willing to pay more than you are. Welcome to the world of supply and demand. Of course your words could just as easily apply to the stock market, or the farmers market for that matter. Lack of time is one of the reasons I keep searching acution sites. What I wouldn't give to be able to head to surplus stores more than about three times a year. Some day I hope to live in that fantasy world where people get weekends off. So my options are... 1) On that rare day off spend 8 hours in surplus stores looking for a part I'm probably not going to find, while my wife curses me for not spending that rare day off with her. 2) Do an automated auction search and (eventually) pay $20 for a $5 part. > A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in > listing fees, sales percentages, etc. I see. You are both annoyed that buyers pay too much and that sellers don't get every cent of the inflated price that the buyers pay. > When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, > much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they > charge a percentage of the sale. And the final sales price is likely to be lower because of lesser traffic. The difference will probably be more than what Ebay charges. > I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of > my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. I make it a point not to rule anything out until the bid goes above what I'm willing to pay. -- Eric From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 15 12:21:15 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up > for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time. > > Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately. > > Vultures... Keep in mind that vultures are NOT an Ebay exclusive. People have been doing this sort of selling since the first thing became collectable. I don't like it, but it's life. And to add to that, this bit about people parting machines and selling them as parts on Ebay is way overblown. I think I have seen _three_ sellers that I suspect are doing this*. Out of the thousands that post auctions to the vintage computer category, that's _not_too_bad_. So quit whining about Ebay, everybody. I notice that probably half of the people on this list use it. I'm one of them, both buying and selling. We are not "clueless morons", thank you. *For those that will immediately bring up the guy that sells bits of metal from a Univac all the time - remember once he heard the slander from this list, and it is quite clear that what he has IS only metal. The original machine is long gone. He is not a vulture. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 15 12:36:11 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <01d001bfd6f0$343a6300$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Peter, Sorry for causing any trouble. I only recently joined this group and I wasn't aware of this groups' desire for 80 character line lengths limits. I never intended to suggest that all email revolves around MS Outlook. I use it because it works well for me. I know that the mail readers in Netscape and IE both support autowrap and the ability to size the window as desired. When this approach is used for email, the added > > (or | | or whichever) characters only appear at the beginning of each paragraph, so they don't scramble the contents of the email. So, nesting can continue forever, if desired. I (and others) think this is a big advantage - especially in mail groups where replies bounce back and forth. But, it's just suggestion. BTW, would it cause you any problems to turn wrap on? This way you could handle any line length you encountered. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > On Jun 14, 17:58, Mark Champion wrote: > > > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their > email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired > (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML > compatible email programs have this capability. > > No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML > compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email > does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) > > As you see from the above, you lose the quoting when most software does the > wrapping after the event. It's an accepted convention to keep lines short > -- and I seem to remember we had this discussion a few months ago? > > > The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line > lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each > reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure > everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) > > Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- > and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep > the correct indentations. Particularly since not everyone uses the same > quoting characters (I use "> " but others may use "<" or ":" with or > without a following space). > > > If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will > add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. > > Yes please. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 15 12:57:15 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:37 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE1A@TEGNTSERVER> > > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > > sense. > > In other words, you're annoyed that someone might want the same item you > do, and might be willing to pay more than you are. Welcome to the world > of supply and demand. Of course your words could just as easily apply to > the stock market, or the farmers market for that matter. > > Lack of time is one of the reasons I keep searching acution sites. What > I wouldn't give to be able to head to surplus stores more than about three > times a year. Some day I hope to live in that fantasy world where people > get weekends off. So my options are... 1) On that rare day off spend 8 > hours in surplus stores looking for a part I'm probably not going to find, > while my wife curses me for not spending that rare day off with her. 2) > Do an automated auction search and (eventually) pay $20 for a $5 part. I really envy those of you who live on either the left coast or in an area that's been tech-saavy for a long time; here in the heart of the rust belt, the surplus stores just don't carry hitech electronics. ..snip.. > I make it a point not to rule anything out until the bid goes > above what I'm willing to pay. A prudent rule I concur with. -dq From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 15 14:16:26 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes In-Reply-To: <00e601bfd654$6b02b640$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <000b01bfd6fe$3430e4c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Mark, What makes these Vax tapes? Do they have any software? Do they have content descriptive labels? Are they just ?RMS? filestructured user data? Am I interested ? John A. (DECAACP-itated) From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 15 14:33:03 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 14, 17:58, Mark Champion wrote: > > > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their > email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired > (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML > compatible email programs have this capability. > > No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML > compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email > does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) > > As you see from the above, you lose the quoting when most software does the > wrapping after the event. It's an accepted convention to keep lines short > -- and I seem to remember we had this discussion a few months ago? > > > The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line > lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each > reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure > everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) > > Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- > and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep > the correct indentations. Particularly since not everyone uses the same > quoting characters (I use "> " but others may use "<" or ":" with or > without a following space). > > > If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will > add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. > > Yes please. That is my vote also. - don > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Jun 15 14:38:32 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <047501bfd701$4d6a1440$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Reminds me of the following fortune cookie I once wrote: Religious Malpractice (I) When disaster strikes, sue your local Bishop, Minister, Rabbi or Ayatollah for penal damages. Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:43 AM Subject: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > > the world as a result. > > Yes, but there's safety and safety, and I am not at all convinced that > all safety is a Good Thing. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 15 15:25:32 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: "Mark Champion" "Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation" (Jun 15, 10:36) References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <01d001bfd6f0$343a6300$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Message-ID: <10006152125.ZM8462@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 15, 10:36, Mark Champion wrote: > Peter, > > Sorry for causing any trouble. I only recently joined this group and I > wasn't aware of this groups' desire for 80 character line lengths limits. Well, the convention is actually for less than 80; there's no set rule but commonly-mentioned lengths are between 78 and 72. > I never intended to suggest that all email revolves around MS Outlook. That was just my jibe, not to be taken too personally :-) BTW, though I wrote that "we had this discussion a few months ago", I realise you may not have been on this list at the time. > I use it because it works well for me. I know that the mail readers in > Netscape and IE both support autowrap and the ability to size the > window as desired. When this approach is used for email, the added > > > (or | | or whichever) characters only appear at the beginning of each > paragraph, so they don't scramble the contents of the email. So, nesting > can continue forever, if desired. I (and others) think this is a big > advantage - especially in mail groups where replies bounce back and > forth. But, it's just suggestion. Most people I know would disagree. The idea is to indent paragraphs, a long-cherished system on Usenet and mailing lists. Just as it appears in the paragraph above (you must have turned wrapping on before you composed it -- thanks for that :-)). > BTW, would it cause you any problems to turn wrap on? This way you > could handle any line length you encountered. I *HAD* wrap turned on -- that was my point about losing the indentations. I could see what you typed in 78-column form, but there would be others on this list who wouldn't be able to do that; and when you turn the wrap on, the wrapped lines still don't get indented/quoted as God intended. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 15 16:29:50 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in VAX tapes References: <000b01bfd6fe$3430e4c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <02af01bfd710$d8c4fbe0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> John, The large (700') tapes say "3M - Scotch". The small (600') tapes say "OPUS CriticalFile". They all come in plastic tape holders. These tapes originally contained demo files for Tektronix 4014 terminal emulator products my former company (Northwest Digital Systems) produced. These are data files only, no .exe files. They were created using VMS Copy. The bit density is 1600BPI. Some of the tapes include instructions for reading the tape. The date on this documentation is November, 1988. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 12:16 PM Subject: RE: Anyone interested in VAX tapes > > Mark, > > What makes these Vax tapes? > Do they have any software? > Do they have content descriptive labels? > Are they just ?RMS? filestructured user data? > Am I interested ? > > John A. (DECAACP-itated) From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 15 16:33:21 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Fw: Anyone interested in VAX tapes Message-ID: <02bd01bfd711$565b40a0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Appologies to mailing list - I forgot to embed carridge returns. Here's another copy. John, The large (700') tapes say "3M - Scotch". The small (600') tapes say "OPUS CriticalFile". They all come in plastic tape holders. These tapes originally contained demo files for Tektronix 4014 terminal emulator products my former company (Northwest Digital Systems) produced. These are data files only, no .exe files. They were created using VMS Copy. The bit density is 1600BPI. Some of the tapes include instructions for reading the tape. The date on this documentation is November, 1988. Mark Champion Sony Electronics 206-524-0014 mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 12:16 PM Subject: RE: Anyone interested in VAX tapes > > Mark, > > What makes these Vax tapes? > Do they have any software? > Do they have content descriptive labels? > Are they just ?RMS? filestructured user data? > Am I interested ? > > John A. (DECAACP-itated) From elmo at mminternet.com Thu Jun 15 16:34:02 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Free PDP Memory/BA11/Modem Manuals Message-ID: <39494BC9.D2F4372E@mminternet.com> I have the following xeroxed manuals for 11/60 or 11/70 PCM memory systems: micromemory 7405 Product Manual (Electronic Memories & Magnetics, Hawthorne CA) Mostek Memory Systems MK8015 PDP-11 Add-In Memory Technical Manual Plessey Peripherals Systems PM-11D MMU Installation Procedure an original: DEC BA11-K mounting box user's manual and another xerox: Omnitec Telephone Coupler Models 401, 501, 701 (Teletype) Technical Specifications & Maintenance Manual Yours for postage. Regards, Eliot From mrdos at swbell.net Thu Jun 15 17:07:05 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Power Supply Message-ID: <000501bfd716$14009ca0$0c703ed8@compaq> I just picked up an IBM PC Convertible at a thrift shop. It has a battery (dead), but no power supply. Does anyone know the power specifications for it? Thanks, Owen From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 15 17:15:35 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <10006152125.ZM8462@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Peter, > > > > Sorry for causing any trouble. I only recently joined this group and I > > wasn't aware of this groups' desire for 80 character line lengths limits. > > Well, the convention is actually for less than 80; there's no set rule but > commonly-mentioned lengths are between 78 and 72. ________O/_______ O\ > I *HAD* wrap turned on -- that was my point about losing the indentations. > I could see what you typed in 78-column form, but there would be others on > this list who wouldn't be able to do that; and when you turn the wrap on, > the wrapped lines still don't get indented/quoted as God intended. The problem that I frequently encounter, as a pine user, is that what is neatly paragraphed when I read it simply runs off the right margin when I try to reply. Makes a bit of a nuisance when wanting to include the text for reference purposes. I must then re-paragraph the beyond the margin part. - don > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 15 17:08:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <200006151628.JAA20423@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> from Bruce Lane at "Jun 15, 2000 06:57:08 am" Message-ID: >> When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much >>smaller, >> much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they >> charge a percentage of the sale. > >And the final sales price is likely to be lower because of lesser traffic. >The difference will probably be more than what Ebay charges. You MIGHT think so, but actual practice I have seen is that on free listing sites where the traffic is low, the minimum bids and reserves are HIGH. Most of the time set at whatever the person is getting on eBay. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 15 17:00:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> looking for investment items. Of course, over the past few years, >> many new computer "collectors" have appeared as "computer collecting" >> seems to be the in thing to do; some of these collectors just collect >> computer equipment in large quantities and pack them away, buying the >> entire inventories of hamfest vendors at a time without even seeing >> what all they're buying; these are probably the same collectors who >> are bidding high prices on e-bilk. > >And the same people who take a surplus machine, break it up >for parts and auction it off a nut and a bolt at a time. > >Or auction a card and its associate cabling separately. > >Vultures... My my, what a testy group of crybabies. Prepare to cry a LOT more, as eBay and other auctions get up steam to support serious regional auctions. Once the number of bidders and sellers increases enough to support regional, or bigger city, auctions all sorts of stuff people won't currently ship. Evil Idea..... I set up a space at the next big hamfest, say TRW here in Socal, and for a fee/percentage take digital pictures and list items on eBay for people with the auctions to close in 10 days, payment and pickup in person only at the next TRW. Maybe for an additional fee I would even handle the mailing. I know at least one company that is setting up to do this for businesses right now, so it is coming. Most of the people who REALLY need a certain card or cable already have one or the other, WHY should I bundle them together so that a person who MOST likely doesn't need the other half gets it, and somebody else goes without? The same goes for systems, MOST of the people who REALLY need something, want a PART, not the whole box. I sell five times as many systems as parts as I do as systems and I offer BOTH. The way I look at it is that five machines are working again instead of one. RE Vultures. First show me someone, anyone on eBay etc. who is making more than a "paper" profit and minimum wage. Assume I pay nothing for what I sell on eBay at $20, except I drive 40 miles RT to a hamfest and spend 3 hours hunting them down in a batch of say 20, sell 5 a week with an 2 hours of packing and making up shipping labels and packing lists (all five), 20 minutes depositing checks, and an hour to drive to the post office and wait in line to ship. Thats about (2+3+4*(2+.3+1))= 18.2 hours a month, not including time to make up a listing, answer email etc. Ebay fees are $1.50 each (assuming a first bid of $19.99, its 50 cents to list, final value fee of $1.00 about). So gross sales are $400 (20x$20) Less eBay fees of $30 (20x$1.50) Nothing for packing materials etc. Net profit is $370, divided by 18.2 = $20/hour OK better than minimum wage, but its a FAT calculation assuming everything sells, that I find 20 items worth buying, and doesn't include the cost of buying them, miles on the car and the guy who thinks he needs an X, but doesn't know what model his computer is etc. I'd say more but I have to go circle at the post office with the other vultures. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 15 17:28:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Message-ID: >How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've >seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A >DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses >with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... Ah, but do you have a trailer hitch........ Be sure to bring back the dumpster. From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 15 18:42:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <001701bfd723$69fa45e0$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay > At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves > >to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't > >avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too > >high. > > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in > listing fees, sales percentages, etc. > > And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get > me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to > death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least > surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either. > > The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of Greed" in > the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have > some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the immense > size they are today, I think I can say with confidence that it's just "not > fun" any more. > > When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, > much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they > charge a percentage of the sale. > > I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of > my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 15 18:51:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 15, 2000 03:28:19 PM Message-ID: <200006152351.QAA16978@shell1.aracnet.com> > > >How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > >seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > >DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > >with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > Ah, but do you have a trailer hitch........ Be sure to bring back the dumpster. > > ROTFLMAO!!! That's cruel! I'm at work, do you have any idea how hard it was to keep from bursting into laughter? That hurt! Zane From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 15 18:50:08 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <3.0.5.32.20000615065708.009653a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <002201bfd724$70cc60a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Gee! I had no idea they had a pricing structure for buyers. The "take" that they claim is pretty low by comparison with sale through consignment at the local surplus electronics store. Moreover, eBay lets you sell whatever you want to sell. I've paid the eBay guys about $10 which I felt was a small cost for getting rid of, and paid for, things I otherwise couldn't even get someone to pick up. I certainly don't find that eBay has "buried" me in anything. Clearly, I was unhappy when one of my items was listed under stuffed animals and found by a lone bidder, who was willing to pay my minimum, which I'd happily have accepted any time. Of course I've not listed dozens of things at once, nor have I ever attempted to buy anything there. The latter, of course, is because I don't want more obsolete computer equipment. Not everybody will understand, much less, agree with, my position on eBay, but, like prostitutes and lawyers, they provide a service that's of use to some. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay > At 08:19 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves > >to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't > >avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too > >high. > > It's not just the pricing structure for me, and the fact that there are > clusters of morons Out There who have more money and time than common > sense. A big part of it for me is that, for sellers, E-pay will bury you in > listing fees, sales percentages, etc. > > And their "privacy" policies for both buyers and sellers? Don't even get > me started! Give them a millimeter, and not only will they profile you to > death, but they will actually spam you. I wouldn't be in the least > surprised if they're reselling users' marketing data either. > > The game show "Let's Make A Deal!" was once dubbed the "Seat of Greed" in > the USA. I think that title has now been taken by E-pay. While I did have > some good luck with them several years ago, before they grew to the immense > size they are today, I think I can say with confidence that it's just "not > fun" any more. > > When I put something up for auction, it goes to haggle.com. Much smaller, > much friendlier, and they don't charge anything for listings, nor do they > charge a percentage of the sale. > > I definitely hear where your coming from, but E-pay is no longer a part of > my search routines when I'm looking for stuff. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > From louiss at gate.net Thu Jun 15 19:17:26 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard In-Reply-To: <200006152351.QAA16978@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200006160017.UAA62778@flathead.gate.net> Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? Louis From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 15 19:59:08 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 10:35 15-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: >Now, do you understand? > >I do agree with you that one can occasionally find bargain on e-bay >and other auction sites, but it's still npot the same as finding >things on Usenet or hamfests and haggling over the price. I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other electronic-oriented swap meets. > > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 15 20:51:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better > name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed > makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and > quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other > electronic-oriented swap meets. You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen people going around buying large quantities of things, indiscriminantly, just to snap them up, apparently to resell on e-bilk or squirrel away in storage... or even to sell them at 200-percent and much higher, mark-ups at the same hamfest. Disgusting. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 15 21:12:19 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Apologies to all... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000615191219.00965ea0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> I think I need a vacation... a -real- one! I apologize for adding fuel to the fire on the E-bay thread. While I may not agree with the way it works all the time, and what it may or may not have done to the retail and swap-meet level surplus scenes, we're stuck with it for better or worse, and I have better uses for my energy than polluting the list with pointless rants about it. Admittedly, I have found it useful. Even now, there's some stuff on there that I could use that has not gathered any bids, and it's less than three days from finishing. On a wider scope, I also apologize for being a lot snappier than normal lately. Whatever's happening in my own head, the residents of CLASSICCMP certainly deserve better than to get dumped on about it. Keep the peace(es). Methinks I'll just lurk for a while. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 15 20:05:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> from "Mark Champion" at Jun 14, 0 05:58:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1065 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/3c4ef0a9/attachment-0001.ksh From transit at lerctr.org Thu Jun 15 23:58:42 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: E-bay, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615191219.00965ea0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: I've been collecting (micro's mostly, Apple, Atari, Coco, etc.) since 1990...I'm more interested in playing around with these machines (even if only a few minutes a year!) than hoarding them and hoping they'll appreciate in value. And yes, I've used E-bay (most of the other internet auction sites really have little, if anything). I've also scoured Usenet and found stuff, usually from people who don't want to bother with E-bay's procedures for sellers, for whatever reason. I occasionally go to the thrift stores, but I haven't seen a whole lot other than bits and pieces of 286's and 386's (I'm in the LA area), and they're often overpriced ($50 for a 286? In 2000? Gimme a break!) There's also the TRW swap meet in El Segundo, but I haven't been there for a while. (It used to be pretty good, but the last time I was there, Oct 99 or so, it seemed to be PC cards and motherboards, old test equipment, and the same guys selling the same outdated ham tranceivers, for about $200-300 more than they're probably worth. Maybe it'll be a bit better this month...) Has E-bay sucked the thrift stores and hamfests dry? Possibly part of the reason, although another reason might be that there is only a finite amount of systems and people interested in them, and neither number is exactly growing, if you catch my drift. So a lot of stuff gets tossed out due to ignorance. From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 00:42:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU Message-ID: Today, I became the owner of an HP-1000E. :-) One slight problem: I'm told that the PSU is bad. Upon removing the cover from the PSU, I noticed that there are three plug-in boards in the PSU, and one empty PCB connector, the second one back from the front. Is this circuit board supposed to be missing? I've not teted the PSU yet, as I didn't know if doing so with this (optional? a regulator for a voltage this system doesn't need?) board removed will damage it. Is it safe to power it up with this board missing? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Jun 16 00:51:43 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX Message-ID: <20000616005143.X6262@mrbill.net> (I apologize if this breaks the 10-year rule; I *think* this box is about as old as a SS1, or darn close to it - couldnt find a date of mfg..) I've got a barebones (no HD, no RAM, no kb/mouse) HP/Apollo 715/33 available in Austin, Texas. You can find specifics on it at http://parisc.workstations.org/systems.html and http://parisc.workstations.org/systems/715_scorpio.html Nice little PA-RISC box; however, I just have no use at all for any HP stuff. Will trade for anything DEC/VAX related (literally, anything - make a halfway serious offer, you might be surprised) or will even possibly give it away if someone has a good enough need/reason why I should. I just need it out of the way. I'm looking for VAXstation (3100, 4000-VLC, etc) machines and hardware, BTW. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 00:48:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE11@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better >name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed >makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and >quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other >electronic-oriented swap meets. I completely disagree, the decline, if it is "real" is from the wholesale dumping of containers full of old computers to Asia. I talk to a lot of the sellers at hamfests, and while a large number of them have access, VERY few have actually ever sold anything over the net, let alone via auction. What is happening is that the container packers are hitting up the hamfest sellers sources with better offers to haul away everything. The other factor, and this is a real sideways one, is that a pickup truck full of junk isn't selling like it used to at the hamfests. Too many of the guys are packing up 90% of what they brought and taking it back home. Before just about anything would sell, and now the buyers are much more saavy, some items sell quickly, others are never going to move. Buyers have a better idea of value than the sellers, and some values are DOWN due to internet sales. Many of the buyers are just like I am too, buying at hamfests to sell on the net, and that makes us much more cautious after awhile at how much we spend, because the net is MUCH more unforgiving about what won't sell. Two factors, new guys buying up stuff to pack in containers, and old dogs loosing interest in fighting for the bones to sell. Most of the blame I would put on the big scrappers though, as that is where 90% of the goods are going. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 00:09:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: References: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: I was digging in the bone yard of a surplus place (where the nobody would buy this carcai are assembled before a bulk sale as junk), and found a Miniscribe 6086 (I think) hard drive setting in a old 386. Looked like it had 3 connectors, something smaller than IDE, a slotted edge connection like a floppy drive, and maybe some sort of power connector. Full height 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might even be a couple of them. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 00:50:13 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: VCF 4.0 is tentatively scheduled for Saturday, September 30 - Sunday, October 1. The venue this year in the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose, California. More details to come! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 03:08:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: <20000616005143.X6262@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Part of my sweaty digging the other day turned up a HP 82161A data cassette drive with power supply and most likely bad batteries. Please save me from the bad old eBay by sending $10 plus shipping for it. Serious begging/logic/waving$ only regarding the little box with 6 data cassettes, which I am guessing will be dandy in my HX-20. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 04:49:31 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (R. D. Davis) References: <3.0.5.32.20000615175908.0098abf0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <14665.63531.641636.507489@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 15, R. D. Davis wrote: > > I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better > > name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed > > makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and > > quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other > > electronic-oriented swap meets. > > You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things > seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The > last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen ...but this has been going on for years! I've always attributed it to the unfortunate proliferation of PCs. Most of the good hamfests have turned into new-windoze-hardwarefests. I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass windoze hardware that would better be sold via mail-order...which is all I see at hamfests nowadays. I, for one, absolutely LOVE eBay. That's where I find all the radio gear I'm looking for that doesn't show up at hamfests anymore because of the damned windoze lemmings!! -Dave McGuire From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Jun 16 06:58:23 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <20000616005143.X6262@mrbill.net> from Bill Bradford at "Jun 16, 2000 00:51:43 am" Message-ID: <200006161158.HAA31077@bg-tc-ppp298.monmouth.com> > (I apologize if this breaks the 10-year rule; I *think* this > box is about as old as a SS1, or darn close to it - couldnt > find a date of mfg..) > > I've got a barebones (no HD, no RAM, no kb/mouse) > HP/Apollo 715/33 available in Austin, Texas. It's more as old as a SS2... Nice box. We used them at Fort Monmouth and they were quite nice. They seemed to eat a SS2 for lunch and were very reliable. > Will trade for anything DEC/VAX related (literally, anything - > make a halfway serious offer, you might be surprised) or will > even possibly give it away if someone has a good enough > need/reason why I should. I just need it out of the way. > > I'm looking for VAXstation (3100, 4000-VLC, etc) machines and > hardware, BTW. You'll get my VaxStation 3100 when you pry it out of my cold dead hands 8-) Sorry. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 07:28:05 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> > Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching > for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. > Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? Louis- Not meaning to be rude, but even when they work, an Apple /// is kaput. Are you aware of how buggy those things were? Did you ever do any extensive programming for one? Again, sorry, I truly mean no offense, but I grew to loathe Apple for making this machine, and it's a wonder that I was able to overcome that loathing and buy a Mac. -doug quebbeman From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Jun 16 14:07:16 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-00, you wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: >> I would add to this another pet dislike I have for E-bilk (much better >> name, BTW). To my eyes, they are in large part (sheer unmitigated greed >> makes up the other part) responsible for the decline in quality and >> quantity of equipment that used to show up at hamfests and other >> electronic-oriented swap meets. > > You've noticed this decline as well? :-( Interesting hackish things > seem to be getting more and more difficult to find a hamfests. The > last one I went to had very little, and most I've been to, I've seen > people going around buying large quantities of things, > indiscriminantly, just to snap them up, apparently to resell on e-bilk > or squirrel away in storage... or even to sell them at 200-percent and > much higher, mark-ups at the same hamfest. Disgusting. I've noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff. On the other hand, used PC's are being scalped at higher prices than new. Maybe we've learned this from the oil companies? > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 16 08:25:15 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query In-Reply-To: <39462A01.D9F96D50@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:33:05 +0100 Paul Williams wrote: > Whoops. Having just been home and checked, I find that my programmer is > a PP39. However, if you think the documentation for _that_ might be > useful, let me know. Just in case anybody else has one, I have a Stag PPZ Universal Programmer with manuals for the EPROM and PAL plug-in modules. The programmer itself is a classic computer, since it's a 6809 machine with a little built-in CRT display. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 16 09:18:17 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> At 03:00 PM 6/15/00 -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >First show me someone, anyone on eBay etc. who is making more than a >"paper" profit and minimum wage. >So gross sales are $400 (20x$20) >Less eBay fees of $30 (20x$1.50) >Nothing for packing materials etc. >Net profit is $370, divided by 18.2 = $20/hour I imagine there are plenty of "professional" eBay sellers. Pick a niche and examine the listings, and you'll see the same sellers with links to their existing niche web site or estate-sale-buyer or surplus-buyer site. Presumably, they've already found a way and a wage to make their living doing this, and eBay just gives them a bigger market. One of the secrets to the good life is realizing that time is the most precious commodity. From a time versus dollars standpoint, going to a ham radio rally probably doesn't make much sense. It might give great personal satisfaction, of course. Any wealth I've accumulated doesn't prevent me from enjoying a great find from a Dumpster. Even given eBay's fees, given 2:1, 3:1, 6:1 or better margins, it can be sufficiently interesting for the hobbyist not to mention the professionals. The concept has infected my brain. I've tried to restrain myself to the 5:1 or better re-sales and speculation. Wish I had a wireless Palm with a link to eBay so I could check the price of items while at the surplus sale... You can't beat the variety. I look for the Yogi Bear doll I had in the 60s, and presto, there it is for $40, in several permutations. Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing away the content that has been created for them for free. They should archive the picture. But then I don't think Dejanews.com is run right, either. Sheesh. - John From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 16 09:50:25 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez's message of "Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:55:19 -0400" References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > I guess that the first thing that I have to do now that I tested the > power supply and verified that the machine (seems to) turn on, > is to build a serial console cable for this. I have several cables > that will fit the BACI boards, but the connectors at the other > end have been cut off. Does anybody have the pin out for the > finger pads in the front of the BACI boards? OK, so this morning I have in front of me a couple different versions of HP part number 12966-90001: HP 12966A Buffered Asynchronous Data Communications Interface Installation, Service, and Reference Manual. The datacomm card-edge connector is called P1 in this manual, and it's described in terms of letter codes A-F, H, J-N, P, R-Z, AA, and BB; and then numbers 1-24. I'm guessing that these correspond to sides of the board/connector but I'm not sure which side is the letters and which is the numbers. Some help I am, huh? It looks like HP typically shipped one of several cables with the board, depending on what option the board was ordered with. What's copied below is the configuration of the "default" cable, p/n 12966-60004, and which I think is appropriate for a DTE-flavored RS-232 device (like a terminal) with no hardware flow control. pin Signal name Device pin RS-232C ckt Source A Signal Ground (EIA) 7 AB Common B F C CA Inhibit D Transmit Data (EIA) 3 BA Intfc E Request to Send (EIA) CA F Data Terminal Ready (EIA) CD H Ext Freq J F/4 K F/8 L F/16 M F/2 N P/Ext P BSBA R Ext Clock 16 Device S Received Data (EIA) 2 BB Device T Secondary Line Sig Det (EIA) SCF U (spare) (EIA) V Secondary Receive Data (EIA) SBB W BSCA X Clear to Send (EIA) CB Y Data Set Ready (EIA) CC Z Ring Indicator (EIA) CE AA Receive Line Signal Detect (EIA) CF BB Signal Ground 1 Signal Ground 2 CCNT 7 3 SXX (Secondary Chan) (EIA) SBA/SCA 4 BSCF 5 SIN 6 Xmit Data In 7 TTY OUT 8 +5 volts 9 TTY IN 10 +12 volts 5,6 Intfc 11 UCLK0 12 CLKP2 13 CLKP1 14 CLKP0 15 CLKP3 16 Recd Data Out 17 BSBB 18 DIAG 19 Spare 20 Run Disable 21 BSXX 22 UCLK 23 -12 volts 24 Signal Ground There's a rather complex set of cross-connects in the card-edge connector's hood: (A, N, 1) (F, X, Y, AA) (J, K) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) Other cables described in the manual: 12966-60008, for HP 264X terminal 12966-60006, for modem 12966-60007, for HP 2749B teleprinter 12966-60010, for HP 2621 terminal 12966-60011, for HP 7221 plotter 12966-60012, for HP 264X terminal to HP 7221A plotter (???) The cables for modem, 2749B, and 7221 look like they are intended to go to something like a DB25 connector. The cables for 264X and 2621 terminal look like they're intended to go to the datacomm connectors on those devices (264X would be a different card-edge, 2621 would be an Amphenol 50-pin connector that looks like the "Centronics" SCSI connector). The cables can be wired to provide for an external clock source (-60008 does this) or to provide a fixed? baud rate for the interface. If you see connections to pins 12-15 and/or N that is what is going on here. The -60004, -60006, and -60007 cables are shipped configured for program control (i.e. code running on the processor can set the interface's baud rate). I'm going to be lazy for now and not key that table in. Maybe later if you want it. How's that for too much info? -Frank McConnell From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 09:55:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (OT) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE21@TEGNTSERVER> > You can't beat the variety. I look for the Yogi Bear doll I had > in the 60s, and presto, there it is for $40, in several permutations. For me, it's the Big Bruiser(tm) tow truck by Marx. Haven't yet seen one with a) all the parts and b) the same color pickup truck (towed vehicle) that I had, but sooner ot later... -dq From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 09:09:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14665.63531.641636.507489@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see > rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old > Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power > amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi > antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and then died. :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 10:12:10 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > archive the picture. Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't want the legal hassles, basically. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 16 10:14:11 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <394A4443.865E18D2@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > Even given eBay's fees, given 2:1, 3:1, 6:1 or better margins, it > can be sufficiently interesting for the hobbyist not to mention the > professionals. The concept has infected my brain. I've tried to > restrain myself to the 5:1 or better re-sales and speculation. > Wish I had a wireless Palm with a link to eBay so I could check > the price of items while at the surplus sale... 10:1 or greater is what I look for to encourage me to sell stuff that I have collected (and have duplicates of) while .5:1 or better is what I look for to just try and get rid of stuff. The 10:1 allows me to get more "stuff" :). From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 10:28:35 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have > hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills > because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff. I don't think its going into landfills, but is getting recycled. Many more electronics/high-tech companies these days have contracts with recyclers, so less goes home with the employees. I too have noticed a drop in the number of interesting computer things at the fests, but I am chalking that up to the idea that the classic minis and micros are past their "take to the hamfest" portion of their lifecycle, and now in the :few survivors still in garages" portion. We seem now to have XTs and ATs taking their spot at the fests. In time they will get scarce, replaced by 386s, 486s, G3s, SPARCstations*, then Pentiums, Ultras, etc.. *The influx of super cheap workstations at the fests are quite a welcome sight, however. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 10:37:04 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Sellam Ismail) References: <14665.63531.641636.507489@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14666.18848.853438.636413@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see > > rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old > > Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power > > amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi > > antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass > > Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and > then died. > > :) 8-< NOOOOO!!! -Dave McGuire From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 16 10:43:27 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Computing History CD-ROM Message-ID: Anyone know anything about the CD referred to at this link: http://members.aol.com/HistoryCD/HOC.html Is this worth having? --Pat. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Jun 16 10:57:40 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <004d01bfd7ab$99e0f6e0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 9:29 AM Subject: RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay > >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't >want the legal hassles, basically. > Given that collecting (of anything) is a very large industry, they're missing a chance to _make_ a lot of money. Every bookstore has dozens of price guides to collectibles in it, which sell for upwards of $40 each. A lot of those are based on the results of a few hundred auctions a year. eBay could "publish" (whether in print or electronically) guides based on thousands of auctions a year. If they published electronically, they could charge a nominal fee for access to the price guide - say 5 cents per successful search. They already have a structure in place to bill all of their sellers. It would be easy to require that anyone searching the price guides register as a seller (and provide credit card info) first. Then you bill them for their accumulated search charges monthly, or whenever they have another sales transaction. I don't understand your point about eBay wanting to avoid "legal hassles" over auctions gone bad. They are just the middleman, all of their contracts state that they are not responsible for the authenticity, condition, delivery, etc. of the items. The buyer and seller voluntarily assume all the risk. I don't see how providing a database of past transactions involves them any further in a legal sense. Just my 2 cents (Cdn). Mark Gregory From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 16 12:00:47 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <200006161601.LAA90464@opal.tseinc.com> In a message dated Fri, 16 Jun 2000 8:33:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Douglas Quebbeman writes: << > Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching > for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. > Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? Louis- Not meaning to be rude, but even when they work, an Apple /// is kaput. Are you aware of how buggy those things were? Did you ever do any extensive programming for one? Again, sorry, I truly mean no offense, but I grew to loathe Apple for making this machine, and it's a wonder that I was able to overcome that loathing and buy a Mac. -doug quebbeman >> sheesh, just because it wasnt the greatest of designs doesnt give you carte blanche to disparage the person wanting to fix one. I have a /// that still boots off its profile drive, but i wonder when it will stop working. 2 years ago i gave a nonworking /// to a friend who ebayed it. he actually got $60 for it. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 11:08:28 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <004d01bfd7ab$99e0f6e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: > Given that collecting (of anything) is a very large industry, they're > missing a chance to _make_ a lot of money. Very true. > I don't understand your point about eBay wanting to avoid "legal hassles" > over auctions gone bad. They are just the middleman, all of their contracts > state that they are not responsible for the authenticity, condition, > delivery, etc. of the items. The buyer and seller voluntarily assume all > the risk. I don't see how providing a database of past transactions > involves them any further in a legal sense. Auction houses are always getting sucked into legal problems - even if it is just to be a witness (expert or otherwise). With Ebay's volume, they would have to have a large expensive legal department just to deal with it all. It seems to me that Ebay has already had some massive legal headaches concerning Nazi collectables in Europe. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 11:15:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Thu, Jun 15, 2000 at 08:30:08AM +0000 References: <014e01bfd664$ded778c0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> <10006150930.ZM8070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000616121559.A26237@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 15, 2000 at 08:30:08AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML >compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email >does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) Hear hear! >Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- Definitely. Sometimes it gets silly if there are 10 levels of nesting at once, but usually that's just because people are quoting everything in sight instead of having the consideration to trim out the parts that are no longer relevant. So the multi-nested stuff shouldn't be there to begin with. >and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep >the correct indentations. Actually my little homebrew editor has something like that, it will rejustify a block of text, and remove/reinsert any specified prefix string around the operation. I use it for reformatting comment blocks in assembly language source (i.e. fill to the right margin while preserving the "; " or "; " prefix on each line). I've always meant to write a stand-alone UNIX version of that command, for just this reason (to use instead of "{!}fmt -80" in vi). Putting a quote characters only at the beginning of paragraphs is really annoying IMHO. It just doesn't catch your eye the way having a prefix on each line does, and even if the mailer or pager or terminal handles does wrapping (not necessarily at word boundaries) while you're displaying the msg (which BTW gets a very distracting series of reverse-video plus signs in the "mutt" mailer I use), that doesn't help you when you're in the editor composing a reply to the msg. At least in some editors, you only see 80 columns of long lines at a time, so in order to read the paragraph you have to arrow your way through the whole line. Don't get me started on HTML in email! If the person *created* the message by simply typing a few lines of ASCII text, why should we see it any other way? Who said it's supposed to look like a magazine article. It's especially annoying in plain text mailers, where the actual message text is dwarfed by the header/trailer boilerplate and pointless font changes and line after line of   strings. And what's up with the quoted-printable crap with all the equals signs? It's nice to have a way to represent funny characters, but most of the time you don't need that and even if you do you're taking a gamble that the person receiving the msg has a terminal which can display that character. Meanwhile the plain text is all screwed up, especially if it contains real live equals signs, and some mailers seem to convert every ocurrence of the letter "F" to "=46", well I suppose that's a workaround for the UNIX ">From " atrocity which is another constant annoyance. And if you're going to put "soft" line breaks into the text, at least put them at the actual line breaks!!! Boy, I miss the days when the pinnacle of "letter quality" output was to make it seem as if the author had taken the trouble to type the letter up on a real live typewriter. John Wilson D Bit From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 11:33:40 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <20000616121559.A26237@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Don't get me started on HTML in email! If the person *created* the message by > simply typing a few lines of ASCII text, why should we see it any other way? > Who said it's supposed to look like a magazine article. I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by 99 percent of the population? Is anyone writing mailers for the old systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 16 11:41:34 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I don't know about you...but when I go to a hamfest, I want to see > > rows and rows of 70-year-old guys selling cool old > > Heathkit/Collins/Hallicrafters transceivers, HUGE RF power > > amplifiers, and commercial-quality (but homebrewed) yagi > > antennas...not row after row of taiwanese folks selling new, cheap-ass On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and > then died. Those guys are accumulators, not collectors. Typically, they're selling stuff that they got while it was still current, and that they got for its usefulness, not collectibility. They don't REALLY want to part with any of it. Many die before selling all the stuff. You wouldn't want to know what the estate does with "all that worthless junk". The excutor of my will has informal instructions to hold a garage sale and announce it here. We are not all dead yet. As to the Taiwan new stuff: are you familiar with the process of "eutrophication" that lakes go through? It seems like any flea market that is around long enough attracts permanent vendors of new stuff. More and more; until they choke out everything else. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 12:09:18 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:38 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation (William Donzelli) References: <20000616121559.A26237@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. I still insist that it has nothing to do with "old" or "new" computers...or even "old" or "new" mailers! "Get a modern computer" doesn't do the trick...I can spin up X on a twenty-year-old MicroVAX-II and run state-of-the-art GUI-fied email software (kmail, vm under xemacs, whatever you want!) that will deal with HTML email. It really does seem to me that it's very much a Windoze/non-Windoze thing. Next time someone emails you HTML crap, look at the headers. It *all* comes from Windoze boxes. On the other hand, everyone I associate with around here (home and work) uses Unix boxes of one form or another...for the most part, they're all running perfectly *NEW* modern hardware, running current, state-of-the-art software...and I get NO HTML crap from any of them. Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 11:13:25 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I've noticed that as well, including old computers as well. What I have > > hard and seen is that most of it is being just thrown into the landfills > > because people at large think there is NO value to the stuff. > > I don't think its going into landfills, but is getting recycled. Many > more electronics/high-tech companies these days have contracts with > recyclers, so less goes home with the employees. > > I too have noticed a drop in the number of interesting computer things at > the fests, but I am chalking that up to the idea that the classic minis > and micros are past their "take to the hamfest" portion of their > lifecycle, and now in the :few survivors still in garages" portion. We seem > now to have XTs and ATs taking their spot at the fests. In time they will > get scarce, replaced by 386s, 486s, G3s, SPARCstations*, then Pentiums, > Ultras, etc.. I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. They don't grow them anymore. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 11:15:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. Sure. But we can make it a prerequisite here in our own little sheltered classic computer world that anyone wanting to participate shall use no HTML in e-mail. Agreed? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 11:19:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Sorry to have to break it to you, but those guys sold all their stuff and > > then died. > > Those guys are accumulators, not collectors. Typically, they're selling > stuff that they got while it was still current, and that they got for its > usefulness, not collectibility. They don't REALLY want to part with any > of it. > > Many die before selling all the stuff. You wouldn't want to know what the > estate does with "all that worthless junk". The excutor of my will has > informal instructions to hold a garage sale and announce it here. > > We are not all dead yet. Sorry, Fred. I didn't mean to excelerate your demise ;) I'm just commenting that the supply of stuff runs out. It's the same reason you don't see Hollerith machines and Grammaphones at the ham fests. They all got sold years ago. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mark.champion at am.sony.com Fri Jun 16 12:21:49 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: Message-ID: <003901bfd7b7$5e0f20e0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> Tony, As I said, you are right about the EGM. It was an option. No argument. I was only trying to help the original poster. Regarding this off-topic email issue, I say, "do whatever you want." I will do things your way when I post here. But, I hasten to add that the comments I've seen here make clear to me that I have failed to explain why wrap works fine for me. I only get the > > stuff at the beginning of paragraphs. I can cut out paragraphs and paste without the tedious editing. But, I repeat to eveyone... "Do whatever you want." Also, I never put any HTML in my email posts. But I receive email containing HTML everyday. So how can you say HTML has no place in email? If you ever need to imbed formatted data in your email such as a table or use any character attributes such as color or bold, you need HTML. (Yes, you can use attachments or use some other work-around, but that's rather inconvenient.) Only my opinions. Mark Champion mark.champion@am.sony.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation > > > > Tony, > > > > I believe you are correct regarding the EGM. Thanks for clarifying that > > point. > > Well, I've never seen one of these terminals, but that's what the manaul > says... > > > > > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their > > email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired > > (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML > > compatible email programs have this capability. > > This is not meant to be a flame, but I am tired, so it may come out like > one. If so, I apologise. > > HTML is a markup language. It's not strictly a formating language, and > IMHO it has no place at all in e-mail. Period. > > Not all e-mail programs (or the editors that they call) have any > word-wrap capability. Of those that do, as soon as the reply-marking '>' > characters are inserted, it's essential to preserve line breaks so that > those markers always come at the left of the physical line. Otherwise the > mail soon becomes totally unreadable. Word-wrap therefore makes little > sense for e-mail. > > -tony From emu at ecubics.com Fri Jun 16 12:35:20 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation References: Message-ID: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Talk to the remaining one percent ? ;-) > Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. Don't care about the 99% anyway, and what you're saying is, that I need a 2 GHz Strontium, running Winblows to talk to this group tomorrow ? PFffft. just my .00002 cents, emanuel From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 12:39:40 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE23@TEGNTSERVER> > sheesh, just because it wasnt the greatest of designs doesnt > give you carte blanche to disparage the person wanting to fix > one. I have a /// that still boots off its profile drive, but > i wonder when it will stop working. 2 years ago i gave a > nonworking /// to a friend who ebayed it. he actually got $60 for it. Nothing I wrote was disparaging to Louis. I never had trouble getting one to boot, I had trouble with it working as any reasonable person with programming skills would expect a computer to operate. Let me elaborate. I was developing a job costing package for a small local construction firm. We didn't have one to do development on, so I had to work on the customer's machine. While I understand that SOS (wasn't that the name of the OS, Apple SOS, pronounced "Applesauce"?) did have other development environments available, Pascal coming to mind, I was directed to use the native Basic interpreter. Well, I'd be typing in my code, when randomly, without warning or notification, the /// would pick a point in my source code, and either delete a chunk out of the middle, or from a point to the end of the code. And I mean randomly; it would truncate in the middle of a line number! Clearly, what was happening is that I was overflowing the interpreter's symbol table. But nuking my source code is not an acceptable way of informing me as a user that it could not handle what I was asking of it. Hell, at least it could have started beeping when I'd try to enter a new line of code. So I'd start saving to disk every 5 lines. Since I compose to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some programmers compose directly into thr machine), at least I didn't _really_ lose anything except peace of mind. As I said, I had to work at the customer site, and since they had to use the machine during the work day, that meant I had to work the remaining hours. It became customary for me to still be there in the morning when they'd come in, although I tried like hell to be out by 6am. One morning around 8am, one of the owners asked me "how much longer it would take", to which I replied "it would've been done by now if you'd bought a different computer." That was my last day on the project and if I could do it all over again, I'd have defenestrated the computer before his very eyes. 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. cheers, -doug q From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 12:43:36 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > It really does seem to me that it's very much a Windoze/non-Windoze > thing. Next time someone emails you HTML crap, look at the headers. > It *all* comes from Windoze boxes. On the other hand, everyone I > associate with around here (home and work) uses Unix boxes of one > form or another...for the most part, they're all running perfectly > *NEW* modern hardware, running current, state-of-the-art > software...and I get NO HTML crap from any of them. Hey, its a Windoze world, like it or not, and the public follows it. Same with Macs. This list may be heavily slanted towards older systems (understatement of the day), and I certainly can see why most of us do not want HTML, but really, this is now in the minority. Most mailing lists I am on do not discourage HTML at all - I just have to live with it. Same with mail from my non-computer friends. I figure that one of these days I will actually start using a modern mailer, rather than moan about it. > Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic > computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing > things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. Well...yes it is. I would venture to say that these days, more use it than not. There really is no technical need to restrict HTML in email - the net is not nearly as choked as it used to be, so the argument of "wasted bandwith" is not really valid, and almost everyone has the ability to read HTML email as it is to be viewed, including most of the Unix people. If nearly everyone can read it without heavy demands on the net - what's wrong with it? William Dnzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 12:48:05 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Sure. But we can make it a prerequisite here in our own little sheltered > classic computer world that anyone wanting to participate shall use no > HTML in e-mail. I agree. The list, however, is about the most reasonable place you would want tomake that restriction because of the large amount of ancient machine in use by listmembers. If you tried to pull the same thing on the ice fishing list, you would probably catch hell. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 12:51:30 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was digging in the bone yard of a surplus place (where the nobody would > buy this carcai are assembled before a bulk sale as junk), and found a > Miniscribe 6086 (I think) hard drive setting in a old 386. Looked like it > had 3 connectors, something smaller than IDE, a slotted edge connection > like a floppy drive, and maybe some sort of power connector. Full height > 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might > even be a couple of them. I find no listing for a Miniscribe 6086. However, there were a 6085 and a 6985E which were 71mb and ST506 MFM and ESDI RLL respectively. - don From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 12:53:20 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> Message-ID: > Don't care about the 99% anyway, and what you're saying is, that I need > a 2 GHz Strontium, running Winblows to talk to this group tomorrow ? No, not at all. The question I posed is if anyone is writing mailers for the older systems so they can handle HTML properly. Of course, if you want to hind under a rock, you can do that also. I like to think that I have a life out side classic computers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 13:08:04 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > Don't get me started on HTML in email! If the person *created* the message by > > simply typing a few lines of ASCII text, why should we see it any other way? > > Who said it's supposed to look like a magazine article. > > I'm curious - what will some of us folks do when HTML in email is used by > 99 percent of the population? Fortunately, 99% of that 99% do not submit e-mail to this venue. > Is anyone writing mailers for the old > systems that can handle the HTML properly? Let's face it, HTML in email > is here and its growing. I would venture to say it is a natural > evolution, and all of the complaining we as a group do will have no Right! Bloatware e-mail to go along with bloatware OSs and applications. - don > effect on the rest of the world. The rest of the world can use the excuse > "get a modern computer" - and for the most part they are right. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Fri Jun 16 13:19:45 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX References: <200006161158.HAA31077@bg-tc-ppp298.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000616181452.28753.qmail@hotmail.com> I vote that workstation hardware older than 7 years old counts as a classic, if it's oddball enough. PA-RISC is pretty oddball in my opinion. They run OpenSTEP well, though. Dittos on the VAXstations... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pechter" To: Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: Re: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX > > (I apologize if this breaks the 10-year rule; I *think* this > > box is about as old as a SS1, or darn close to it - couldnt > > find a date of mfg..) > > > > I've got a barebones (no HD, no RAM, no kb/mouse) > > HP/Apollo 715/33 available in Austin, Texas. > > It's more as old as a SS2... Nice box. We used them at Fort Monmouth > and they were quite nice. > > They seemed to eat a SS2 for lunch and were very reliable. > > > Will trade for anything DEC/VAX related (literally, anything - > > make a halfway serious offer, you might be surprised) or will > > even possibly give it away if someone has a good enough > > need/reason why I should. I just need it out of the way. > > > > I'm looking for VAXstation (3100, 4000-VLC, etc) machines and > > hardware, BTW. > > You'll get my VaxStation 3100 when you pry it out of my cold > dead hands 8-) > > Sorry. > > > > > Bill > > > > -- > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 13:24:20 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something > simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, it's "trash".... > They don't grow them anymore. Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 13:28:07 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > If you tried to pull the same thing on the ice fishing list, you would > probably catch hell. I'm on an Electronic Organ list, an Amtrak Advocacy list, a Web for Librarians list and a couple others I forgot about. Generally, non- ascii e-mail is discouraged on all of those lists, with varying fervor (maybe one or two html messages go through uncommented-on, but occasionally the list manager sends a message "Please turn off HTML in your e-mail programs". I use Pine which doesn't handle HTML gracefully (that's to say, it can't read it, it makes me go save the file and look at it with some other program. That shouldn't be necessary, but...) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 13:31:20 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation (William Donzelli) References: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14666.29304.794967.182577@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > > Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic > > computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing > > things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. > > Well...yes it is. I would venture to say that these days, more use it > than not. I'm not sure I'd agree...but then I work in a company full of Unix boxes and live in a neighborhood full of Unix people. But that's the reality I see when I look out the window. Microsoft isn't universally run everywhere. Sure, every suit has a Windows box on his or her desk...but just as there's more to the human race than suits, there's more to the world of computing than Windows. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 12:38:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > There really is no technical need to restrict HTML in email - the net is > not nearly as choked as it used to be, so the argument of "wasted > bandwith" is not really valid, and almost everyone has the ability to read Ahh, William, so spoiled by your high speed net connection :) Think about the poor slobs in other parts of the world who still have to pay by the minute. I pity them as I download 20 megabyte AVIs over my cable modem paying only $39.95 (plus franchise tax) a month ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 13:42:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.24382.675002.234746@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > I still insist that it has nothing to do with "old" or "new" > computers...or even "old" or "new" mailers! Yes; lots of people are running brand new systems running different varieties of UNIX, not to mention the much smaller number of new systems running other non-microsoft operating systems that rely upon regular ASCII text for e-mail. When one thinks about it, does it really make much sense to send anything other than text in e-mail? After all, when I get out my fountain pen and stationary to write someone a letter, it doesn't have various fonts, graphics, etc. in it - which in no way makes it less useful as a form of communication. Also, plain old ASCII text e-mail takes less space to store, and searching through it is quicker when one needs to find something ten years later. > Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic > computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing > things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. Well said! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 13:42:58 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation (William Donzelli) References: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > > Don't care about the 99% anyway, and what you're saying is, that I need > > a 2 GHz Strontium, running Winblows to talk to this group tomorrow ? > > No, not at all. The question I posed is if anyone is writing mailers for > the older systems so they can handle HTML properly. Again, is this a blanket statement that anything that isn't an Intel box running Windows is an "older system"? As to the question...yes, many modern mailers for non-Windows systems (old systems and new systems alike) deal with HTML just fine. I think the animosity toward HTMLized email (at least for me) comes from these points: 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say about it. 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into the World Wide Web. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 12:42:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE23@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > machine. While I understand that SOS (wasn't that the > name of the OS, Apple SOS, pronounced "Applesauce"?) Sophisticated Operating System > I'd start saving to disk every 5 lines. Since I compose > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > programmers compose directly into thr machine), at Um, speed and efficiency? > 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement > of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going > to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, > but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. Do it! Do it! My vote is for the Commodore 64. Whenever you find one, if the motherboard isn't dead, the power supply is! And if it does work, it will die quite more readily than any other computer I've ever used. I've never had as many other computers up and die on me as the C64. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 13:47:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6085? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> I was digging in the bone yard of a surplus place (where the nobody would >> buy this carcai are assembled before a bulk sale as junk), and found a >> Miniscribe 6086 (I think) hard drive setting in a old 386. Looked like it >> had 3 connectors, something smaller than IDE, a slotted edge connection >> like a floppy drive, and maybe some sort of power connector. Full height >> 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might >> even be a couple of them. > >I find no listing for a Miniscribe 6086. However, there were a 6085 and >a 6985E which were 71mb and ST506 MFM and ESDI RLL respectively. Most likely it is the 6085. Sounds like it isn't worth removing though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 13:49:27 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) References: Message-ID: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > concerned, it's "trash".... Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out > hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling > away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old > computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? I've turned a few younger people on to it...they seem to get a kick out of computers whose internals they can really understand. One can find databooks for 7400-series TTL logic anywhere, and figure out exactly how a pdp8/e works. Pop open a current PeeCee and what do you find? Five or six two-zillion-pin chips with names like "Win-" on them that you'll never find so much as a pinout for in any printed or .pdf literature. -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 16 13:44:58 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something >simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. >They don't grow them anymore. More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY one? I hope not. What I am seeing is that different categories of places let go stuff at different times. Some have a fixed cycle just a few years long, ie many ISP lease the hardware for only a year or two then it hits the liquidation market. Other places hoard everything ever purchased until the company folds or sells etc. I am actually looking forward to some of the Apple II era machines I know are still hiding in industrial settings. If you want to see a Grammophone go to the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest this Saturday, there are few out there most times. . Morbid perhaps, but in a few years I bet a LOT of stuff worthwhile starts showing up in storage auctions. From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 14:04:31 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > concerned, it's "trash".... Not to mention that most people never knew anything at all about computers until they bought a PeeCee running Luzewin a couple of years ago and are the same ones that not too long ago gave you a strange look if you said the word "Internet;" they just have no concept of what using any other computer is like. > Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out > hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling > away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old > computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? It seems so strange to think of people doing anything else with older computer equipment (or even old radios or stereos, for that matter) that they find, buy, are given, etc. other than finding some use for it, playing with it, etc. When I talk of my "collection," I don't mean a collection of things squirreled away never to be used, or things that I'm accumulating for the purpose future gains, but a group if items that I find useful and fun to play with. Alas, many people this equipment to horde, collect to sell at a quick profit, etc. Today, I was down in Beltsville at an antique radio flea market - not sure of the event's proper name; it was like a hamfest, but only vintage radio equipment. People were selling 1970's transistor radios for US$30, old wooden tube sets that were scratched up, rusty, had what looked like mouse eaten wiring, had capacitors leaking white chemicals, etc. - one set like this was being sold for about US$50! A Dynaco stereo-70 amp and tuner were going for nearly US$400. One thing the above made me wonder: how many of these old tube sets will end up forever unused and unrestored, and treated - like some other antiques - as being less valuable if restored (like cleaned-up coins and some wood furniture), just because restoring them might lower their financial value as antiques? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 16 14:15:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE26@TEGNTSERVER> > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > machine. While I understand that SOS (wasn't that the > > name of the OS, Apple SOS, pronounced "Applesauce"?) > > Sophisticated Operating System > > > I'd start saving to disk every 5 lines. Since I compose > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), at > > Um, speed and efficiency? Haste makes waste. The speed and effeciency people I've known get the job done quicker but with a higher load of bugs. They (or someone) have to re-work it until it's right. By composing to paper, I catch everything except conceived- of-the-wrong-solution-for-this-problem. All syntax errors and all flow-of-logic errors show up on paper. Of course, they show up during execution, too. Along with hair that either disappears or turns grey. Then again, people vote with their checkbooks, and over and over, buggy software that's available NOW sells better than the bug-free software that's just-around the-corner. Talk about being trapped on the wheel of Karma! > > 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement > > of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going > > to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, > > but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. > > Do it! Do it! Not today, but soon... > My vote is for the Commodore 64. Whenever you find one, if the > motherboard isn't dead, the power supply is! And if it does > work, it will die quite more readily than any other computer > I've ever used. I've never had as many other computers up > and die on me as the C64. I once tried to help a friend stuck working on a C64- once, and never again. ;-) -dq From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 13:17:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does > it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply > because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been > announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. Damn. What a bunch of frustrated, bickering goobers we all are here. Fifty messages on a mailing list supposedly dealing with Classic Computers and all I see is pointless and endless complaining and flaming back and forth, back and forth. Dudes, smoke a bowl, drink some wine, eat some cheese and CHILL! Put your egos back in the garage with your classic computers. ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 13:22:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something > >simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. > >They don't grow them anymore. > > More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do > you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY > one? I hope not. Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and it is what I've been trying to impress upon whiners for a while now. It's just that one can't expect machines from the 70s and 80s to still always be around in the quanitites they used to be accustomed to when we were still talking only 10-20 years ago. We've made it to the year 2000. Time has moved on and left your memory behind. > folds or sells etc. I am actually looking forward to some of the Apple II > era machines I know are still hiding in industrial settings. I guarantee you there are still plenty of PDP-8s and other goodie machines out there. Just far fewer of them than 10 years ago. > Morbid perhaps, but in a few years I bet a LOT of stuff worthwhile starts > showing up in storage auctions. Who knows, mine might be one of them :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 13:16:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 16, 0 12:33:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1518 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/0cbb56ee/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 13:23:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <003901bfd7b7$5e0f20e0$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> from "Mark Champion" at Jun 16, 0 10:21:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/4a485bd4/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 13:10:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 16, 0 01:08:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1415 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/13e9d2da/attachment-0001.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Jun 16 14:40:01 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> Thanks a lot for all this! The cable halves that I have are marked either "12966-60015 ASYNC DATA STRAPPED FOR 9600 BAUD" or "12966-60008 ASYNC DATA". Fortunately, the numbering in the back of the card edge connector corresponds to the 1-24 (top, left to right) and A-Z,AA-BB (bottom, left to right) numbering. The 60015 option has quite a few more cross-connects than the 60004 option. Looks like the labeling of TD and RD signals in your docs indicate that the card thinks of itself as DTE, and the cable that you describe is actually a null modem-like cable w/o handshake. All this should be enough for me to build a simple cable and test this over the weekend. Frank McConnell wrote: -lots of very useful info cut- > > How's that for too much info? > > -Frank McConnell That was really great. Thanks again, carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From elvey at hal.com Fri Jun 16 14:44:18 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006161944.MAA23320@civic.hal.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > > archive the picture. > > Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > want the legal hassles, basically. Hi I still think it would be to Ebays advantage to keep such things as at least item, purchase price, seller and buyer. I often look to use what resources they have. Finding buyers of rare old equipment is desirable. Keeping a list of where and who is one of the ways that we can realisticly keep many of these old machines form ending up in the recyclers masher. List of this type can also help to distribute information that is common interest to that group. The way it would help Ebay is that, it is like advertising. By having this resource, they could also make links to current auctions that are related. This would draw people, by both making it a regular place in the book marks and direct advertising. Dwight From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 16 14:52:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616145028.00b29cf0@pc> At 11:12 AM 6/16/00 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't >want the legal hassles, basically. In my mind, the best web site business plans involve the visitors creating the content themselves. They're missing a big, big opportunity. Each description can contain potentially valuable nuggets of info. It's a crime to toss them in the bit bucket. - John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 16 15:35:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616132933.02493ee0@208.226.86.10> > > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > > archive the picture. Two points, one Ebay _does_ realize the value of their historical data. Try spidering their completed listings a couple of times and their lawyers will come talk to you. The pictures aren't on ebay, they are on the seller's site or honesty.com or wherever they hosted them. >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't >want the legal hassles, basically. I don't believe this is true. I believe Ebay doesn't want to keep its auctions accessible because it wants to sell that information for money to people like appraisers for big BUCK$. I've been creating an automated process in my spare time to harvest the information I'm interested in (average selling price of classic computer systems) but not enough time etc. What they _should_ do, and don't, is keep the title from the auction for which a feedback link is posted so that you can tell if this deadbeat bidder failed to buy a Monet or a speculum, that might help you decide if you're willing to let them bid on your stuff. --Chuck P.S. Side note, the price of Classic Computers on Ebay is dropping. When I have enough data I should be able to show it quite clearly. From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 15:49:00 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > I think the animosity toward HTMLized email (at least for me) > comes from these points: > > 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. > 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. > 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to > prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people > in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't > have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say > about it. > 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, > in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the > Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into > everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into > the World Wide Web. > 5. It can spread viruses. Plain old ASCII e-mail doesn't do that (hoaxes like "Join The Crew" notwithstanding...) From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jun 16 15:55:32 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616132933.02493ee0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > >want the legal hassles, basically. > > I don't believe this is true. I believe Ebay doesn't want to keep its > auctions accessible because it wants to sell that information for money to > people like appraisers for big BUCK$. I've been creating an automated > process in my spare time to harvest the information I'm interested in > (average selling price of classic computer systems) but not enough time etc. eBay doesn't keep historical data because they don't want the storage requirements or performance hit the data would give them. They have *lots* of trouble keeping search performance acceptible given the volume of data they need to index today. Multiplying that problem by an order of magnitude or two isn't a problem they want right now. If their growth stays flat, they may get around to addressing this -- I'm sure they've considered it, but it's not core functionality. Cheers, Doug From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 14:57:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000616145028.00b29cf0@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 11:12 AM 6/16/00 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > >Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > >database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > >can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > >come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > >want the legal hassles, basically. > > In my mind, the best web site business plans involve the visitors > creating the content themselves. They're missing a big, big opportunity. > Each description can contain potentially valuable nuggets of info. > It's a crime to toss them in the bit bucket. Yeah, how else are we going to know whether or not a certain computer is RARE? I always turn to eBay vintage computer hardware listings when I need to find out such information! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From louiss at gate.net Fri Jun 16 16:14:30 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> Hi Doug, Well, I haven't programmed on one, but I have worked with them a fair amount, and don't entirely disagree with you. I think the hardware is in general poorly designed, and the SOS operating system is one of the worst ever. It is the only one I know that doesn't let you change the current drive, and requires a "loader program" in Drive 1 to run programs on any other drive. Someone said in response to your remarks they booted theirs from a ProFile; in actuality, that is not possible, you have to boot from Drive 1. However, I have to add that an astonishing number remained in service for very long periods of time, up until recently, and after the initial problems were solved, they were in fact quite reliable. In an event, they are interesting none the less, and as you can imagine I am not using mine to run a business. So, I still would like the motherboard. Louis On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:28:05 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >> Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching >> for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. >> Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? > >Louis- > >Not meaning to be rude, but even when they work, an >Apple /// is kaput. > >Are you aware of how buggy those things were? Did you >ever do any extensive programming for one? > >Again, sorry, I truly mean no offense, but I grew to >loathe Apple for making this machine, and it's a wonder >that I was able to overcome that loathing and buy a Mac. > >-doug quebbeman > From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:14:26 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does > it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply > because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been > announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. > I'm sure that if you did a web search, you'd find thousands of essays deploring our "consumerist, throw-away society". I won't write one here. > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps running well and doesn't cost too much to fix, keep it. I never understood the mentality saying you gotta have a new car every year, or whatever. I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my newsletters on, or surf the Net. So as far as the non-computer-collecting community is concerned (how's that for alliteration, huh?), things have improved exponentially since the early days of the Imsai, the Apple or even the original IBM-PC. There's no real reason for them to store, let alone maintain the older equipment....and, unless one of us geeks hears about it, and is in a position to "rescue" said equipment...off to the landfill/scrapper/China it goes... From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:22:26 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > Not to mention that most people never knew anything at all about > computers until they bought a PeeCee running Luzewin a couple of years > ago and are the same ones that not too long ago gave you a strange > look if you said the word "Internet;" they just have no concept of what > using any other computer is like. People "get on board" at different eras with everything, computers, TV, music, etc. I can't tell you how many times people complain "It was better in the old days". Not always so. > It seems so strange to think of people doing anything else with older > computer equipment (or even old radios or stereos, for that matter) > that they find, buy, are given, etc. other than finding some use for > it, playing with it, etc. When I talk of my "collection," I don't > mean a collection of things squirreled away never to be used, or > things that I'm accumulating for the purpose future gains, but a group > if items that I find useful and fun to play with. Alas, many people this > equipment to horde, collect to sell at a quick profit, etc. We've always had the speculation, "this will make me rich someday" crowd with all sorts of collectables, from beanie babies to baseball cards. It'll always be with us. > > Today, I was down in Beltsville at an antique radio flea market - not > sure of the event's proper name; it was like a hamfest, but only > vintage radio equipment. People were selling 1970's transistor radios > for US$30, old wooden tube sets that were scratched up, rusty, had > what looked like mouse eaten wiring, had capacitors leaking white > chemicals, etc. - one set like this was being sold for about US$50! > A Dynaco stereo-70 amp and tuner were going for nearly US$400. > > One thing the above made me wonder: how many of these old tube sets > will end up forever unused and unrestored, and treated - like some > other antiques - as being less valuable if restored (like cleaned-up > coins and some wood furniture), just because restoring them might > lower their financial value as antiques? > In my (limited) experience, most radio collectors are interested in at least cleaning up the cabinets (especially wooden ones), and many are hoping to eventually get the set in playing condition, preferably with parts as close as possible to the original. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 16 16:24:32 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost> Servus Louis, > Well, I haven't programmed on one, but I have worked with > them a fair amount, and don't entirely disagree with you. > I think the hardware is in general poorly designed, and the > SOS operating system is one of the worst ever. It is the > only one I know that doesn't let you change the current > drive, and requires a "loader program" in Drive 1 to run > programs on any other drive. Someone said in response to > your remarks they booted theirs from a ProFile; in > actuality, that is not possible, you have to boot from > Drive 1. I hope nobody will ever tell this to my A///, he may stop to boot from the profile drive. Could it be that there are different versions around ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:24:46 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Damn. What a bunch of frustrated, bickering goobers we all are here. > Fifty messages on a mailing list supposedly dealing with Classic Computers > and all I see is pointless and endless complaining and flaming back and > forth, back and forth. You should visit a couple of my other mailing lists. On my Train mailing list, for example, we've been arguing back and forth for years whether Amtrak should fix up their antique "heritage" cars or just order new ones. It's part and parcel of Internet discussion groups, talk radio, and other fora where you have many people with different opinions and priorities in one place. From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 16:28:02 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > 5. It can spread viruses. Plain old ASCII e-mail doesn't do that (hoaxes > like "Join The Crew" notwithstanding...) > Actually, just HTML can't spread anything. Embedded *scripting* (particularly VBScript, but Javascript has been implicated as well) is the problem... From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 16 16:49:39 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Apple III motherboard In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Jun 16, 0 10:42:55 am" Message-ID: <200006162149.OAA12888@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> 'Nuff said; I intended and maintain committed no disparagement ::> of Louis, only of the Apple ///. I was this very day going ::> to compose and post a message about Computers I Love to Hate, ::> but the timing of his posting changed the opportunity. :: ::Do it! Do it! :: ::My vote is for the Commodore 64. Whenever you find one, if the ::motherboard isn't dead, the power supply is! And if it does work, it will ::die quite more readily than any other computer I've ever used. I've never ::had as many other computers up and die on me as the C64. On the other hand, C128s are nice and reliable when you find them. It also depends on the motherboard version. 64Cs are generally in good condition and so are the later brown 64s (check the serial number). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- High explosives are applicable where truth and logic fail. -- Marcello Corno From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 15:45:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > You should visit a couple of my other mailing lists. On my Train mailing > list, for example, we've been arguing back and forth for years whether > Amtrak should fix up their antique "heritage" cars or just order new ones. At least you're sticking to the subject matter. > It's part and parcel of Internet discussion groups, talk radio, and other > fora where you have many people with different opinions and priorities > in one place. ...and way too much time on their hands with few (if any) outlets for their frustrations. Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 16 17:05:02 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at "Jun 16, 0 04:28:02 pm" Message-ID: <200006162205.PAA04166@oa.ptloma.edu> Getting back to Tek emulation :-P, I've got Lynx successfully exporting pictures as Tek displays and I've been able to trim down the size of the generated vectors. Also, if you can live with a high-contrast image, it compresses down really well. So here's one place that HTML definitely belongs, and Lynx is no longer Tek only. :-) Source code available in Perl for the interested. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Eggheads unite! You have nothing to lose but your yolks. -- Adlai Stevenson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 16:50:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:39 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jun 16, 0 01:24:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/b8b7982e/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 16 17:07:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:12:10 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000616220729.27934.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust writes: > Why doesn't eBay realize the great value they have in the historical > database of sale prices, pictures and descriptions. They're throwing > away the content that has been created for them for free. They should > archive the picture. William Donzelli replies: > Ebay does not want keep all of the auctions as a publicly accessable > database, simply because it is not their job. After a few months, they > can "wash their hands" of the deal, and with it, any disputes that may > come up afterwards (problems in the car auctions leap to mind). They don't > want the legal hassles, basically. They can *sell* access to the archives. As far as problems that come up after auctions complete, they have potential problems whether they keep the data or not. From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 16:56:35 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > > > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > > > concerned, it's "trash".... > > > > Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does > > it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply > > because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been > > announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. > > > I'm sure that if you did a web search, you'd find thousands of essays > deploring our "consumerist, throw-away society". I won't write one here. > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus owners out there who would think that you are daft! - don > running well and doesn't cost too much to fix, keep it. I never understood > the mentality saying you gotta have a new car every year, or whatever. > > I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > newsletters on, or surf the Net. > > So as far as the non-computer-collecting community is concerned (how's > that for alliteration, huh?), things have improved exponentially since the > early days of the Imsai, the Apple or even the original IBM-PC. There's no > real reason for them to store, let alone maintain the older > equipment....and, unless one of us geeks hears about it, and is in a > position to "rescue" said equipment...off to the landfill/scrapper/China > it goes... > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 17:01:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 0 01:45:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 85 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/32b707a6/attachment-0001.ksh From paulrsm at ameritech.net Fri Jun 16 16:22:24 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Douglas Quebbeman > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard > Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM > > Since I compose > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > programmers compose directly into thr machine), Because I can type much faster than I can write. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 16 17:15:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:45:08 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000616221546.28030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam asks: > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? It's Sign EXtend, opcode $1D. Surely everyone knows that?! :-) From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jun 16 17:11:52 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 2000 01:45:08 PM Message-ID: <200006162211.SAA23956@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Sign EXtend instruction on the 6809. -spc (Just keeping on topic here ... 8-) From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 17:24:10 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > You should visit a couple of my other mailing lists. On my Train mailing > > list, for example, we've been arguing back and forth for years whether > > Amtrak should fix up their antique "heritage" cars or just order new ones. > > At least you're sticking to the subject matter. Usually, until it gets into stuff like "Capitalism vs. Communism--better for trains?" or "Is the train name 'Cotton Express' racist?" > > > It's part and parcel of Internet discussion groups, talk radio, and other > > fora where you have many people with different opinions and priorities > > in one place. > > ...and way too much time on their hands with few (if any) outlets for > their frustrations. > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Aargh! If we knew about that do you think we'd be living alone with 20 old computers and nothing else? :-) Some times I think we're the male, technological version of the "Cat Lady"....:-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 16 17:34:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: References: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to walk around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. At 03:49 PM 6/16/00 -0500, Charles Hobbs wrote: >5. It can spread viruses. Plain old ASCII e-mail doesn't do that (hoaxes >like "Join The Crew" notwithstanding...) This is incorrect. Outlook spreads viruses by exploiting a weakness in the underlying architecture and the users of that architecture. The "love" virus et al showed up as plain ascii text with an attachment that many user mail agents convert into a "link." >On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. No, smoke signals work as well. Everyone on this knows that THIS IS SHOUTING and *this* is an emphatic point. HTML gives you better markup than case and punctuation symbols. Sending :-) is not as intuitive as sending the smiley face symbol. > > 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. Again false. There is less waste due to the / and tags than there is from idiots that include a 600 line rant and tag "I agree" on to the end. To steal a phrase, HTML doesn't waste bandwidth, people do. :-) Correctly constructed, HTML is pretty efficient at capturing added typographical information. Mailers that insist on sending both an HTML version and a plain version are broken in my opinion. > > 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to > > prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people > > in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't > > have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say > > about it. HTML and windows are not tied as closely as you might think. Since HTML was developed at CERN on Sun UNIX boxes it was tied at the time more closely to UNIX. However, it is genuinely functional if I can include a diagram in-line with my text that is _not_ composed of ascii characters and thus won't be gobbledy gook when you see it. > > 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, > > in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the > > Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into > > everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into > > the World Wide Web. You are confusing HTTP with HTML. HTML was explicitly designed so that a "modern" computer (one that had a bitmapped screen rather than a terminal) could be taken advantage of when you were *exchanging* documents. It was a lot simpler than the printer description languages of the day, (and PDF today) and, when tied with a convention (the URL) and a network protocol, it could "link" related documents rather than include them and thus waste precious bandwidth. One alternative was RTF (Rich Text Format) which _was_ tied to windoze and isn't very nice. It is true that the "Internet" is defined by many to be the set of all accessible HTTP sites, just as "everybody" is often defined to be everyone within a geographical region. The human mind slides naturally into such groupings and its unavoidable for a lot of people. The future of e-mail may well be HTML. However, what we are actually discussing is this particular community's standard of "decent" behaviour, its morals if you will, and by current consensus, HTML is "rude." There is no technical justification, just like there is no technical justification for banning nudity on beaches. Accept it and move on. --Chuck From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 17:39:46 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > owners out there who would think that you are daft! I'm sure they would. I've always stuck to conservative, commuter cars such as Saturn, Honda Accord, etc. From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 17:55:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Something that your parents should have never had? ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 16:54:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Usually, until it gets into stuff like "Capitalism vs. Communism--better > for trains?" or "Is the train name 'Cotton Express' racist?" Sounds like ClassicCmp, just replace "trains" with "classic computers" :) I can't think of a racist sounding computer name. Are the black Apple ][+'s discriminated against? Was the NeXT really just too ahead of it's time or did it succumb to racist elements in the computer industry? Someone call Spike Lee! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:12:27 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Don Maslin) References: Message-ID: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Don Maslin wrote: > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > owners out there who would think that you are daft! Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since its introduction. Any parallels of that in our industry? Aside from people, that is... -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:12:55 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <14666.46199.344658.763287@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Tony Duell wrote: > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? > > Sign EXtend (6809 mnemonic) ? GEEK ALERT! Way to go, Tony! :-) -Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 17:08:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jun 16, 0 04:14:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000616/c8000988/attachment-0001.ksh From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 18:16:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > Since I compose > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), You do that too? I always got more code written in a shorter period of time that way. When modifying code, paper is all the more useful, particularly wide greenbar with the code to be modified or added to printed out on it. My former employer had no printer with greenbar, which really came as a shock to me, as every place else I'd ever worked had at least one high-speed line printer. It's too annoying to make changes to long programs on the screen; much easier to leaf through pages of code and pencil in changes, draw lines here and there, circle things, etc. than to go from screen to screen with an editor, as that can become confusing with large programs. No wonder modern code has become so bloated and full of bugs; the programmers have less of an idea what they're working on. Even stranger was the fact that most of the people I worked with, who were programmers, had no idea what greenbar was, even when it was described to them! Hopefully line printers and wide dot-matrix printers aren't on their way to becoming obsolete. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 17:15:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? > > Something that your parents should have never had? ;-) Sorry, wrong. The correct answer is "something that R.D. apparently hasn't gotten in a long time" ;) Get that paper white ass of yours out into the sunlight and find yourself a mate! It'll do wonders for your complexion, not to mention your temperament. Cut it out with the masturbation. It just makes you frustrated. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:24:14 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: HTML in mail (Chuck McManis) References: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <14666.46878.854674.981611@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Chuck McManis wrote: > >On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > 1) It's just not necessary for effective communications. > > No, smoke signals work as well. Everyone on this knows that THIS IS > SHOUTING and *this* is an emphatic point. HTML gives you better markup than > case and punctuation symbols. Sending :-) is not as intuitive as sending > the smiley face symbol. It's just as intuitive to me...and to you as well, I'm sure, Chuck. It's all a matter of what one is used to. Sure, one summer day about nineteen years ago I asked a friend what that strange-looking colon-hyphen-closeparen deal was that I was seeing all over the place. He grabbed my head and wrenched it sideways and I learned what a "smiley" was all about. Sure, it wasn't immediately intuitive...but nowadays, I can't see a colon anywhere near a paren without my mind converting it into some sort of face! > > > 2) It's a waste of bandwidth and system resources. > > Again false. There is less waste due to the / and > tags than there is from idiots that include a 600 line rant > and tag "I agree" on to the end. To steal a phrase, HTML doesn't waste > bandwidth, people do. :-) Correctly constructed, HTML is pretty efficient > at capturing added typographical information. Mailers that insist on > sending both an HTML version and a plain version are broken in my opinion. I agree with the "people do" point...but the HTML mail that I see is typically bloated by 20-50% past the original text. Sure, if it were all nice, efficient hand-coded HTML it could be a lot better...but it's NOT. It's coming out of dumbass Windows software and is bloated as hell. > > > 3) Technical people generally want genuine functionality to > > > prevail over "flash"...which is why many (most) technical people > > > in the industry (Visual Basic programmers don't count) don't > > > have Windows boxes on their desks if they have anything to say > > > about it. > > HTML and windows are not tied as closely as you might think. Since HTML was > developed at CERN on Sun UNIX boxes it was tied at the time more closely to > UNIX. However, it is genuinely functional if I can include a diagram > in-line with my text that is _not_ composed of ascii characters and thus > won't be gobbledy gook when you see it. I'm quite intimately familiar with the history of HTML & HTTP...and while I do agree with your statement of functionality, using HTML for any sort of diagramming is a stretch at best. Formatting/coloring/sizing text, sure...but diagramming?? > > > 4) It's a clear outgrowth of the overcommercialization of the Internet, > > > in which uneducated users think the World Wide Web *IS* the > > > Internet, thus they try to cram the World Wide Web into > > > everything they do, and conversely, cram everything they do into > > > the World Wide Web. > > You are confusing HTTP with HTML. HTML was explicitly designed so that a > "modern" computer (one that had a bitmapped screen rather than a terminal) > could be taken advantage of when you were *exchanging* documents. It was a > lot simpler than the printer description languages of the day, (and PDF > today) and, when tied with a convention (the URL) and a network protocol, > it could "link" related documents rather than include them and thus waste > precious bandwidth. Not at all. As I mentioned above I'm quite familiar with the history of both. Please reread my #4 point above with this in mind: I'm speaking completely from the standpoint of the *current* popular use of this technology...not the original reasons for its development. I apologize for not being more clear about that originally. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 16 18:34:16 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) References: <14666.30391.344696.968138@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14666.47480.254777.476342@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > newsletters on, or surf the Net. I think you're taking it to an extreme here, though, given the context. I'm talking about the Pentium-II/233 that was "wow fabulous wonderful my god check out my new machine!!" three years ago that are heading to trash bins today. There is *NO* reason for this. Those machines are just as functional today as they were three years ago...but people are treating them like trash simply because something faster has been introduced by the vendor! -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 17:43:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:40 2005 Subject: Stuff Message-ID: I'm reading through an issue of Computers & Electronics from November 1982 (formerly Popular Electronics) I found here at work. Here's something on page 23 for Marvin & Hans (and anyone else who has one): Microcomputer Trainer. The Micro-Professor is a Z80-based system featuring a six digit LED display, 2K-bytes of ROM (expandable to 8K), 2K-bytes of RAM, 24 I/O lines, 2K monitor, cassette interface, countertimer circuits, a user wire-wrap area, 36-key keyboard, 9-volt power adapter, and an extension connector. The system is expandable. $129.95. Address: Etronix, 14803 N.E. 40th, Redmond, WA 98052 Here's something for the Commodore fans (same page). I've never heard of this one before: CBM 16-bitter. The BX256 is a multiprocessor system using a 6509 and 8088 with an optional Z80, 256K of internal RAM expandable to 640K externally, 40K of ROM, and interfaces for IEEE-488, RS232, CBM cassette, 8-bit user port, and a carthridge slot. The green phosphor video monitor has 80-columns of 25 lines and has tilt/swivel controls. The detachable 94-key keyboard includes a separate numeric keypad featuring a double-zero key, clear entry key, and a double-size enter key for ease of use. The keyboard also has 10 user-definable keys. A built-in 6581 CPU allows a full 3-voice, 9-octave music synthesizer having an output for an external audio system. A dual disk drive is built in as is a realtime clock. Software includes BASIC 4.0, with options of CP/M, CP/M-86, and UCSD Pascal. The BX256 micro processor system supportsd all CBM peripherals. Planned price is $2995. Address: Commodore Business Machines Inc., The Meadows, 487 Devon Park Drive, Wayne, PA 19087. I love this stuff! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 18:34:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jun 16, 0 03:34:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3339 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/beeb7fb8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 18:38:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.46199.344658.763287@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 16, 0 07:12:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 270 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/741aa4f7/attachment-0001.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 19:02:52 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Uh...Synthetic TEXt? From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 19:02:52 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.47480.254777.476342@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > I *do* know there is a big difference between my Apple II (which still > > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > > newsletters on, or surf the Net. > > I think you're taking it to an extreme here, though, given the > context. I'm talking about the Pentium-II/233 that was "wow fabulous > wonderful my god check out my new machine!!" three years ago that are > heading to trash bins today. A 233 I'd probably still keep, personally. (I run a library computer lab and we replaced some Pentium 120's with new Pentium III 600's, via a grant. The 120's went to another campus lab, where they are going to replace some 486's) The P120's (and the 486's) still *work*, they're just slow in dealing with some of the fancy web pages that people want to look at. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 18:58:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Stuff In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 0 03:43:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/609a37b6/attachment-0001.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 16 18:54:39 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX Message-ID: <20000616.185938.-3911317.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:19:45 -0400 "Jason McBrien" writes: > I vote that workstation hardware older than 7 years old counts as a > classic, > if it's oddball enough. PA-RISC is pretty oddball in my opinion. > They run > OpenSTEP well, though. Dittos on the VAXstations... And DG AViiONs! What you lookin' at me like that for?!?! 88000 ain't oddball enuf fer ya?! ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 16 18:59:36 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: transit@lerctr.org Message-ID: <20000616.185938.-3911317.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT) "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" writes: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > If you tried to pull the same thing on the ice fishing list, you > would > > probably catch hell. > > > I'm on an Electronic Organ list, an Amtrak Advocacy list, a Web for ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hey! You may be interested in a couple of manuals I have: Schematic sets for the MONDAINO MONOTRON/POLYTRON, and another one for the MONDAINO H6000/H7000. The drawings are dated 1980. I'm not into these, but maybe you (or one of your buddies) is . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 19:08:40 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not sure what that difference is.... They're both single-processor > von Neuman computers, aren't they? > > I really don't understand why people insist on replacing perfectly good > computers just because there's a new model out. I do know that my > original PC/XT will, once I've replaced the dead chip on the floppy > controller, still run my EPROM programmer, read 8" disks, test cables, > and do all the other things that I've modified it for over the years. > Just as my MINC will carry on logging data (as will my HP71 + HP3421), my > PERQ will still display bitmapped images at a good speed, etc. They do > the jobs they were designed to do, they still do them. And until I need > to do jobs that can't be done on those machines _at all_, I see no reason > to 'upgrade' (meaning : replace a perfectly working, well understood, > reliable system with a new kludge). > If it does what you want it to do, keep it. An original PC/XT wouldn't meet many of my needs right now, so I wouldn't use one except in an emergency. > > > does yeoman service running my Syntauri synthesizer) and the > > PowerComputing PowerCenter 240 that I do most of my "real work" on. And, > > no, I'm not going back to the Apple II and a dot-matrix printer to do my > > newsletters on, or surf the Net. > > I see nothing wrong with printing newsletters on a dot matrix printer. I don't either, really, except the people have come to expect laser formatting, photographs, etc. I guess you *could* do it with an Apple II, hell, I could do it with a TI 99/4A if necessary. And I could rub two sticks together to light my next bbq, instead of lighter fluid and matches. It would be fun to try once, that's about it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 19:18:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jun 16, 0 07:08:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/996aa4cb/attachment-0001.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jun 16 19:28:07 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> Dave McGuire wrote: [snip] > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > its introduction. I suppose it depends on what you define as "changed very little". '71, '73, '74, '76, '78, '82 and '85 all introduce significant chassis changes. The liquid-cooled current production engine has only passing resemblance to the air-cooled precursors and the transaxle has seen radical changes. About the only thing that is really constant about the car is the shape, the transmission-in-front-of-differential-in-front-of-engine-layout and the organization of the engine as a boxer-six. Oh, and the location of the ignition on the left-hand side of the wheel :-) Look hard enough and almost every bit has been radically revisited, which coupled with the amazing ability to graft in stuff from the 930/34/35 and even a few 928 bits, makes for *all sorts* of fun for those of us who get geeky over 911s... :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 16 19:27:14 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: transit@lerctr.org Message-ID: <20000616.192715.-3911317.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Dammit, that was supposed to be private. Sorry Guys . . . On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:59:36 -0500 jeff.kaneko@juno.com writes: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT) "Charles P. Hobbs > (SoCalTip)" > writes: ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 18:39:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: More Stuff Message-ID: More from the same issue of Computers & Electronics (Nov/82). Has anyone ever heard of this machine? Introducing a Brand New Microcomputer: Venture VENTURE is a single board computer that is an adventure for the hobbyist. It is a learning training computer as well as just plain fun for anyone who wants to get into a state-of-the-art computer at reasonable cost. VENTURE comes in kit form or fully assembled and tested. You can get it in its minimum configuration for as little as $195.00 or take it all the way to floppy disks and voice. It can be expanded as a kit or fully assembled, at your own pace and choice. VENTURE is a 16" by 20" main board with separate ASCII and HEX keyboards. It runs fast, almost 4 MHz and has the capability of putting 1.5 megabytes of RAM and ROM on the board along with a variety of inexpensive options. On Board Options: 16 channel A to D; 5 slot 60 pin bus, 2 serial ports, parallel ports; 4 video options incl. color, 52K RAM, Votrax voice synthesizer, sound generator, EPROM; Full Basic, disassembler, editor, assembler; metal cabinet, additional power supply, ASCII keyboard, real time clock calendar. Expansion Options: Floppy Disc, EPROM Programmer, light pen, universal user programmable music, sound board, high resolution color/grayscale pixel mapped video board, General Purpose Instrument Bus, 8088 co-processor board. Minimum VENTURE System: $195.00 Kit includes CPU and control with 4K of RAM, 1K of scratchpad, 2K monitor, 1861 video graphics, cassette interface and separate HEX keyboard with LED displays for address and output. Power supply is included along with 2 game cassettes, The main board is 16" x 20" and includes space for all of the previously dicussed on-board options. Full on-board expansion can be completed for under $1000.00. I want one! The ad is from Quest Electronics in Santa Clara, CA. They also sold kits for the RCA Cosmac 1802 Super Elf, the Rockwell AIM 65, as well as a modem kit, a Z80 Microcomputer kit, and various ICs and such. The ads in the back (the low budget ones) have an even neater array of single board computers being sold by what would seem to be hobbyists trying to sell their creations in the commercial arena. There's an ad for a 68000-based singleboard, a port expander module for the HP-41, plus various add-ons for various computers of the day (Sinclair, Atari, TRS-80, etc). Finally, there's a small add for a IBM Selectric-to-computer adaptor to use the typewriter as a printer. Anyone ever hear of Synchro-Sette magazine (for the Sinclair ZX-81, TS-1000)? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 16 19:57:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> 
At 12:34 AM 6/17/00 +0100, Tony wrote:
>In any case (relating to my previous comment). I don't think there's any
>problem with people using hand-generated html tags here. I've never seen
>that complained about. Just as I've never been flamed for using '\pounds'
>to me an UK pound sign, for all '\pounds' is actually a TeX/LaTeX macro.
>
>The problem comes with certain broken mailers that insist on sending a
>computer-generated HTML message that's much longer than the text. A
>message where every line has font tags, colour tags, etc. Which are
>totally useless to people with monochrome text-based displays anyway...
>That's the waste of bandwidth.

This is the crux of the discussion that causes it to be irrational. (in the 
since of not being reducible to a finite set of parts, not in the sense 
that anyone is being crazy)

The issue that you, and others have with HTML is not with HTML at all, it 
is with the bad software tools that fail to apply it in a reasonable way. 
As you have no doubt noticed, this email is "formatted" with HTML and 
should you choose to view it in an HTML aware window it could include 
emphasis and underlines that were pretty darn unobtrusive.

So I agree with you, every HTML capable mailer I've seen to date does a 
lousy job of implemneting the technology, but that isn't the 
technologies fault.

But I reiterate my main point, using HTML on this list is considered rude, 
therefore people should abstain from it if at all possible and apologize 
when they accidentially use it (as I did, sorry, I'm trying to make a point)

--Chuck
From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:21:48 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.29304.794967.182577@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I'm not sure I'd agree...but then I work in a company full of Unix > boxes and live in a neighborhood full of Unix people. But that's > the reality I see when I look out the window. Microsoft isn't > universally run everywhere. Sure, every suit has a Windows box on > his or her desk...but just as there's more to the human race than > suits, there's more to the world of computing than Windows. Yes, but something like 80 percent of computer users are Windoze types, including John Q. Public. That's a big chunk. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:25:18 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ahh, William, so spoiled by your high speed net connection :) > > Think about the poor slobs in other parts of the world who still have to > pay by the minute. Hasn't been that way for over a year now. I left ANS. > I pity them as I download 20 megabyte AVIs over my cable modem paying only > $39.95 (plus franchise tax) a month ;) Well, OK, RCS/RI has a decent connection as well, but I only use that when at the Mill. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:30:16 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Again, is this a blanket statement that anything that isn't an Intel > box running Windows is an "older system"? Hold the boat, here - when did I say "older system" means a non-Wintel box? I mean a mailer that can deal with HTML that is running under AOS, or RSX, or ITS... Cripes, I really beat the hell out of the hornet's nest this time... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 20:43:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0400 References: <394A6558.C5399614@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20000616214314.A27797@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >No, not at all. The question I posed is if anyone is writing mailers for >the older systems so they can handle HTML properly. More importantly, is anyone writing mailers for the newer systems which can handle plain ASCII text properly? You can't claim to interoperate with other systems if your system absolutely depends on everyone else having more than the minimum features required by the RFCs. Anyway, Windows isn't new, it's been around for ~15 years already... Almost as long as DOS and MacOS, and longer than Linux or most other current Unix clones (even if they have old roots). The main reason HTML is inappropriate for email is that it's a poor fit to the task of representing plain text. Which, 99% of the time, is all that appears in an email message (well, except for spam of course, and god forbid that that not get through). And it contributes hugely to the bloat that we're getting everywhere. It doesn't matter how much bandwidth or disk space you have, HTML effectively cuts it in half. And for what real benefit? My inbox is currently over 6 MB, when I start up the mailer there's a very noticeable delay before it's even finished *counting* the messages. I'm sick of it! >Of course, if you want to hind under a rock, you can do that also. Right! I really like the line in The Unix Hater's Handbook, where they say that they were about to say that Unix is stuck in the dark ages of email, but then they realized that back in the dark ages of computing, network mail actually *worked*. It's an even better point when applied to Windows. >I like >to think that I have a life out side classic computers. Wha... I don't understand? :-) John Wilson D Bit From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:44:58 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do > you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY > one? I hope not. Of course not. That DEC pile was huge, but other piles do turn up (wasn't there one in Delaware about three years ago?). Smaller, yet sizable caches pop up as well. RCS/RI has certainly done well - one early haul involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), two LINC-8s, a Packard Bell 250, a Univac card punch, and a number of PDP-8 and -11 systems. All from one place. More recently, RCS and RICM came across a cache of IBM stuff - mostly semi-interesting hardware, but also something like 800 pounds of documentation - service manuals and the like - for non-PC systems dating all the way back to 1960. Look, and you shall find them. I am always running into piles of old surplus radio and radar gear (my main interest), one of which makes the DEC pile look tiny. Radar gear or old computers - the piles look the same from a distance. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 19:43:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Ok, too cool Message-ID: This is too cool. Advertised in the Dec/82 issue of Computers & Electronics, there's an ad on page 67 for a game for the TS-1000/ZX-81 called Krakit. It's a puzzle type adventure game. What makes it special is that the publisher put up a $20,000 prize for the first person who could crack it. "KRAKIT consists of 12 clues on a ready-to-run ZX81 or TS1000 cassette tape (16k RAM). The answer to each clue is the name of a country, or a city or town, and a number. If you are the first qualified entrant to solve all 12 clues and declared the winner, you receive two tickets to the city of the secret KRAKIT vault location. When you arrive at that location, a check for a minimum amount of $20,000.00 (U.S.) will be presented to you. The amount of the prize money is augmented weekly." Has anyone ever heard of this? Did anyone ever crack it? This game was published by International Publishing & Software Inc. It seems like an awful lot of money for a relatively unknown outfit to be offering. I wonder if it wasn't all just a sham, i.e. one of the clues was so hard as to be impossible to solve :) If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:46:10 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > HTML = HyperText Markup Language. E-mail is not (in general) a hypertext > document. Therefore it shouldn't contain HTML. Interesting logic. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 20:51:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I can't think of a racist sounding computer name. The worst name I ever saw attached to a computer was some business (I think personnel) software called "Manprobe". William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 21:10:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:24:32PM +0200 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost> Message-ID: <20000616221022.B27797@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:24:32PM +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >I hope nobody will ever tell this to my A///, >he may stop to boot from the profile drive. > >Could it be that there are different versions around ? Hmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar. I kind of think I vaguely remember reading magazine articles in the early 80s about the /// being discontinued and then re-introduced in "new & improved" form. But I wouldn't know... Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop the entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering it on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew through the oxide? Wild... John Wilson D Bit From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 16 21:12:45 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We found one source that has yielded 3 truckloads of Wang equipment and documentation and software so far. There is actually one working VS-65 system still left behind. On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > More like oil, plenty of its down there, you just need to drill deeper. Do > > you think the stockpile of old DEC stuff John found this year is the ONLY > > one? I hope not. > > Of course not. That DEC pile was huge, but other piles do turn up (wasn't > there one in Delaware about three years ago?). Smaller, yet sizable > caches pop up as well. RCS/RI has certainly done well - one early haul > involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), two LINC-8s, a Packard Bell 250, > a Univac card punch, and a number of PDP-8 and -11 systems. All > from one place. More recently, RCS and RICM came across a cache of IBM > stuff - mostly semi-interesting hardware, but also something like 800 > pounds of documentation - service manuals and the like - for non-PC > systems dating all the way back to 1960. > > Look, and you shall find them. I am always running into piles of old > surplus radio and radar gear (my main interest), one of which makes the > DEC pile look tiny. Radar gear or old computers - the piles look the same > from a distance. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 16 21:23:34 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:34:47PM -0700 References: <14666.30002.564332.560529@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000616222334.C27797@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:34:47PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >HTML and windows are not tied as closely as you might think. Since HTML was >developed at CERN on Sun UNIX boxes it was tied at the time more closely to >UNIX. However, it is genuinely functional if I can include a diagram >in-line with my text that is _not_ composed of ascii characters and thus >won't be gobbledy gook when you see it. Maybe it won't be gobbledy gook when *you* see it, but it will by the time it gets to me... John Wilson D Bit From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Jun 16 21:29:30 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) > >Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop the >entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering it >on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew >through the oxide? Wild... > Given the weight of a ///, you might fix the computer, but you'll damage the desk! It wasn't just the first time, IIRC. The ///s also had notoriously bad sockets, and lousy cooling, so the chips had a tendency to wiggle out over time. So you might have had to repeat the Apple drop every six months or so. Any other examples of semi-official fixes like this one? The only other one that comes to mind is the infamous "Atari ST twist", where you grasped both sides of the case firmly, and twisted the ends in opposite directions. The flexing of the motherboard supposedly reseated a chip that frequently came loose, without, of course, requiring you to open the case, and thereby void your warranty. Madness! Mark. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 16 21:55:26 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <30.66aa642.267c429e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/16/00 9:36:08 PM Central Daylight Time, mgregory@vantageresearch.com writes: << Any other examples of semi-official fixes like this one? The only other one that comes to mind is the infamous "Atari ST twist", where you grasped both sides of the case firmly, and twisted the ends in opposite directions. The flexing of the motherboard supposedly reseated a chip that frequently came loose, without, of course, requiring you to open the case, and thereby void your warranty. >> wasnt there a similar issue with the TRS80 model 1's expansion interface? I remember hearing that it had a dodgy connection and many people devised methods of maintaining good contact. D.B. Young Team OS/2 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers of yesteryear! come one, come all! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 16 22:03:37 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Ebay historical data. RE: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616132933.02493ee0@208.226.86.10> References: <4.3.0.20000616084605.0189be00@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616214700.00e47340@pc> At 01:35 PM 6/16/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Two points, one Ebay _does_ realize the value of their historical data. Try spidering their completed listings a couple of times and their lawyers will come talk to you. So you think they're archiving it all, and purposefully only letting people search the last few weeks? >The pictures aren't on ebay, they are on the seller's site or honesty.com or wherever they hosted them. I didn't re-read their fine print, but I can imagine that if you're giving them permission to post your HTML description including the URL of the pictures, that they'd have the right to grab a copy. As I'm sure you've seen, the remotely hosted images often disappear even before the eBay completed auction. At 11:17 AM 6/16/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Damn. What a bunch of frustrated, bickering goobers we all are here. >Dudes, smoke a bowl, drink some wine, eat some cheese and CHILL! Put your >egos back in the garage with your classic computers. Because I haven't mentioned sex yet, Sellam might not have read this far. Goobers? Nguba? And all this time I thought the real reason for the VCF was the groupies. Go ahead, buy the eBay Cap'n Crunch whistle, invite him to the show, but beware the "work out" invitations. - John From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 16 22:05:11 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, but something like 80 percent of computer users are Windoze types, > including John Q. Public. That's a big chunk. True, but that's due mostly to ignorance and Microsoft's marketing tactics which have resulted in a very limited choice for the average consumer who buys a computer from the average computer store which only sells PeeCees running Microsoft bletchware. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 16 22:07:08 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez's message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:40:01 -0400" References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200006170307.UAA39779@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Thanks a lot for all this! The cable halves that I have > are marked either "12966-60015 ASYNC DATA STRAPPED FOR 9600 BAUD" > or "12966-60008 ASYNC DATA". Fortunately, the numbering in the > back of the card edge connector corresponds to the 1-24 (top, left > to right) and A-Z,AA-BB (bottom, left to right) numbering. The 60015 > option has quite a few more cross-connects than the 60004 option. This time around I'm looking at a newer (April 1984) revision of the same manual and it has three (!) descriptions of the -60015 cable, two for HP 2621B terminals, and one for HP 264X terminals. Cross-connects inside the card-edge hood appear the same for all descriptions of this cable: (F, X, Y, AA) (H, K) (N, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15) (these strap it for 9600 baud) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) And for the far end of the cable, the 2621B flavors looks like they could be going to a DB25: A -> 7 (Signal Ground) D -> 3 (Transmit Data) E -> 5, 6 (Request to Send) F -> 8 (Data Terminal Ready) S -> 2 (Received Data) X -> 4 (Clear to Send) -60008 looks like it's supposed to be for a 264X terminal (to the card-edge connector on the datacomm board) and has slightly different cross-connects: (A, 1, 12, 13, 14, 15) (F, X, Y, AA) (H, K) (N, 8) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) As far as I can tell, this is strapped for external clocking from the terminal. I guess it's time for that table about how to strap for a baud rate: Baud Rate Bit Yield Pin 8 to pins: Pin 1, A, 24, BB to pins: Ext (16X) 0000 N 12, 13, 14, 15 50 0001 14, N 12, 13, 15 75 0010 13, N 12, 14, 15 110 0011 13, 14, N 12, 15 134.5 0100 12, N 13, 14, 15 150 0101 12, 14, N 13, 15 300 0110 12, 13, N 14, 15 600 0111 12, 13, 14, N 15 900 1000 15, N 12, 13, 14 1200 1001 14, 15, N 12, 13 1800 1010 13, 15, N 12, 14 2400 1011 13, 14, 15, N 12 3600 1100 12, 15, N 13, 14 4800 1101 12, 14, 15, N 13 7200 1110 12, 13, 15, N 14 9600 1111 12, 13, 14, 15, N -- > Looks like the labeling of TD and RD signals in your docs > indicate that the card thinks of itself as DTE, and the cable > that you describe is actually a null modem-like cable w/o > handshake. All this should be enough for me to build a simple > cable and test this over the weekend. That would be about right, I think. The HP terminals that I'm familiar with generally had cables whose far ends were a DB25 plug that wanted to plug into a DCE-flavored connector. Good luck! -Frank McConnell From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 22:38:42 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > > owners out there who would think that you are daft! > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > its introduction. Any parallels of that in our industry? Aside from > people, that is... Perhaps the Model 'T' Ford? :-) - don > -Dave McGuire > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 16 22:40:17 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 16, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > > owners out there who would think that you are daft! > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > its introduction. Any parallels of that in our industry? Aside from > people, that is... Oops! Misread the sentence above. Belay my previous post! - don > -Dave McGuire > From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 16 23:15:09 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? Thanks for any info. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 16 23:36:35 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > > > If it does what you want it to do, keep it. An original PC/XT wouldn't > > Yep, that seems to be a standard viewpoint on this list. It certainly > isn't the view of the j-random-public who insist on replacing computers > just because there's a new model out, even though they still work fine, > they still do the jobs they are needed for. I'd like to get them to stop doing that with cars, except there wouldn't be any good used ones for me to buy... > > > meet many of my needs right now, so I wouldn't use one except in an > > emergency. > > It doesn't do that many of the jobs I need either. Which is why I have > more than one computer. I'd rather have many machines, each one reliably > doing a particular job, than a modern PC that does nothing that I want > particularly well... I have several too... > > [...] > > > > I see nothing wrong with printing newsletters on a dot matrix printer. > > > > I don't either, really, except the people have come to expect laser > > formatting, photographs, etc. I guess you *could* do it with an Apple II, > > As I've said many times before (and will say many times again), I regard > the content of a document as being much more important than the > formatting, the printing method, etc. I've got books/manuals that appear > to have been written on a manual typewriter that contain useful > information. I've got plenty of documents created on DTP, etc, systems > that are not worth the paper they are printed on. Guess which I consider > to be more valuable... I strive to create documents that both look nice and have useful info, but that's just me. > > Of course J-random-public these days would rather look at the pretty > pictures than read pages of text Assuming they can read at all. We have signs in our library , for example, telling them how to use various databases, buy a copy card for the printer, etc. I still end up walking people through the process every day. And I'm talking about Doctors, M.D's! >, but fortunately, I'm not > J-random-public ;-) None of us on this list are, that's what's so nice about it. :-) From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jun 16 23:48:06 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Synchro-Sette magazine Message-ID: <72.4723a4.267c5d06@aol.com> In a message dated 06/16/2000 8:45:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > Anyone ever hear of Synchro-Sette magazine (for the Sinclair ZX-81, > TS-1000)? Yes. They were based in Addison, Illinois, and actually had an 800 number. The magazine was $39.50 for twelve issues, and every other issue included a tape cassette with at least six programs on it. Unfortunately the programs and articles were all pretty much crap and the company folded. Glen 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jun 16 23:48:08 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Krakit Message-ID: <2f.6bb8109.267c5d08@aol.com> In a message dated 06/16/2000 9:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > This is too cool. Advertised in the Dec/82 issue of Computers & > Electronics, there's an ad on page 67 for a game for the TS-1000/ZX-81 > called Krakit. It's a puzzle type adventure game. What makes it special > is that the publisher put up a $20,000 prize for the first person who > could crack it. > > "KRAKIT consists of 12 clues on a ready-to-run ZX81 or TS1000 cassette > tape (16k RAM). The answer to each clue is the name of a country, or a > city or town, and a number. If you are the first qualified entrant to > solve all 12 clues and declared the winner, you receive two tickets to the > city of the secret KRAKIT vault location. When you arrive at that > location, a check for a minimum amount of $20,000.00 (U.S.) will be > presented to you. The amount of the prize money is augmented weekly." > > Has anyone ever heard of this? Did anyone ever crack it? Sellam, if you ever read any of the Timex Sinclair related mags you would be blown away. Not too long ago on this ng the TS1000/ZX81 was voted "most limited" small computer. Bull. Thousands of third-party developers of hardware and software produced every imaginable type of product for this machine. As regards Krakit, to my knowledge no one ever cracked it. I'll put out some feelers. > This game was published by International Publishing & Software Inc. It > seems like an awful lot of money for a relatively unknown outfit to be > offering. I wonder if it wasn't all just a sham, i.e. one of the clues > was so hard as to be impossible to solve :) I don't think it was a sham, it just didn't go over very well. > If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. Do you have a machine to run it on? Glen 0/0 From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 17 00:01:06 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Krakit References: <2f.6bb8109.267c5d08@aol.com> Message-ID: <394B0612.A27266CE@rain.org> If anyone has the game or puzzle, I would also be interested! And as with Sellam, I almost certainly have something it will run on. Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 06/16/2000 9:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > foo@siconic.com writes: > > > This is too cool. Advertised in the Dec/82 issue of Computers & > > Electronics, there's an ad on page 67 for a game for the TS-1000/ZX-81 > > called Krakit. It's a puzzle type adventure game. What makes it special > > is that the publisher put up a $20,000 prize for the first person who > > could crack it. > > > > "KRAKIT consists of 12 clues on a ready-to-run ZX81 or TS1000 cassette > > tape (16k RAM). The answer to each clue is the name of a country, or a > > city or town, and a number. If you are the first qualified entrant to > > solve all 12 clues and declared the winner, you receive two tickets to the > > city of the secret KRAKIT vault location. When you arrive at that > > location, a check for a minimum amount of $20,000.00 (U.S.) will be > > presented to you. The amount of the prize money is augmented weekly." > > > > Has anyone ever heard of this? Did anyone ever crack it? > > Sellam, if you ever read any of the Timex Sinclair related mags you would be > blown away. > > Not too long ago on this ng the TS1000/ZX81 was voted "most limited" small > computer. Bull. Thousands of third-party developers of hardware and > software produced every imaginable type of product for this machine. > > As regards Krakit, to my knowledge no one ever cracked it. I'll put out some > feelers. > > > This game was published by International Publishing & Software Inc. It > > seems like an awful lot of money for a relatively unknown outfit to be > > offering. I wonder if it wasn't all just a sham, i.e. one of the clues > > was so hard as to be impossible to solve :) > > I don't think it was a sham, it just didn't go over very well. > > > If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. > > Do you have a machine to run it on? > > Glen > 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 16 23:12:38 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: Krakit In-Reply-To: <2f.6bb8109.267c5d08@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. > > Do you have a machine to run it on? "A" machine? The only thing I have more of than TS-1000/ZX-81's are C64's (they're like roaches). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 17 00:34:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:42 2005 Subject: X1542 cable? Message-ID: Anyone know where to find info on building a X1542 cable for a C64 floppy drive, and getting the software? Someone on another list I'm on is looking for the info. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 17 00:59:53 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: X1542 cable? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 16, 0 10:34:02 pm" Message-ID: <200006170559.WAA13594@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Anyone know where to find info on building a X1542 cable for a C64 floppy ::drive, and getting the software? Someone on another list I'm on is looking ::for the info. An X154*2*? Don't you mean an X1541? The problem with the classic X1541 cable is that they have some real trouble on modern motherboards' LPT ports. The XE1541 is the standard nowadays -- similar design but with a little extra logic. See http://sta.c64.org/ for plans, and a very reputable guy who will manufacture and ship worldwide. I can vouch for him personally. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The world only beats a path to your door when you're in the bathroom. ------ From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Jun 17 01:06:47 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer Message-ID: <74.490f01.267c6f77@aol.com> It has a built in 5 meg hard drive interface so it should just need cabling to a hard drive. It also uses the 6502 as a video controller to offload the video from the Z80A. The Keyboard is a 93 key keyboard with 17 function keys. If you go back you might look around for it. It has the Visual 1050 Logo on it. There was a VT100 emulator program supplied. Wordstar 3.3 was adapted for it's special keyboard & it included Multiplan and GSS-Graph. New cost was $2695 with SW, in 1984. It is too bad many thrifts separate all of the component parts of the systems. Paxton From technoid at cheta.net Sat Jun 17 01:27:01 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <200006170622.CAA08249@lexington.ioa.net> In the past I have tried to write code to paper and failed to do much with it. Outlines are about as far as I can go. I did this because I wanted to continue work or pass the time when I didn't have a machine in front of me (in high-school or waiting in the Doctor's office). Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. In <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm>, on 06/17/00 at 02:27 AM, "Paul R. Santa-Maria" said: >---------- >> From: Douglas Quebbeman >> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' >> Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard >> Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM >> >> Since I compose >> to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some >> programmers compose directly into thr machine), >Because I can type much faster than I can write. >Paul R. Santa-Maria >Ann Arbor, Michigan USA >paulrsm@ameritech.net -- ----------------------------------------------------------- technoid@cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Sat Jun 17 01:35:19 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> I had a miniscribe 6085 in my 286 in the late 80's. It is an MFM (ST506 interface) drive with the same parameters as the Seagate ST4096. I think cylinders are 1024, heads at 9, and sectors per track at 17. The RLL model would have an 'R' appended to the model number and would have 26 sectors per track. You might be able to run the RLL model on an MFM controller as the difference between the two variations is mainly the platters. Rarely are the drives much different. I ran a 3650 for a couple of years on an Adaptec ACB4070 bridge controller and believe it or not they worked perfectly though they weren't rated for RLL linear density. Despite thier poor reliability record, I still like Miniscribe drives. They sound neat. "Peeep wobble wobble Peep". Western Digital bought what was left of Miniscribe and produced some really aweful drives when IDE was beginning to really catch on. I remember stacks of dead WD 40mb 3.5" drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did sound neat though..... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- technoid@cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 17 02:00:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: X1542 cable? In-Reply-To: <200006170559.WAA13594@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 16, 0 10:34:02 pm" Message-ID: >::Anyone know where to find info on building a X1542 cable for a C64 floppy >::drive, and getting the software? Someone on another list I'm on is looking >::for the info. > >An X154*2*? Don't you mean an X1541? Now wonder I couldn't find it :^) Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Fri Jun 16 23:10:16 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6085? Message-ID: <20000617073639.1832C36B3C@rhea.worldonline.nl> Sounds like it could be reformatted and used as an RD53 for use in a PDP-11 or microVax. Wim ---------- > >> 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might > >> even be a couple of them. > > > >I find no listing for a Miniscribe 6086. However, there were a 6085 and > >a 6985E which were 71mb and ST506 MFM and ESDI RLL respectively. > > Most likely it is the 6085. Sounds like it isn't worth removing though. > > From mmcmanus at direct.ca Sat Jun 17 03:56:11 2000 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (mike mcmanus) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer References: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000b01bfd839$e436df00$a18442d8@j8y1v1> I have doc's & software for it. There yours for the asking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 9:15 PM Subject: Visual 1050 computer > While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. > It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, > a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess > before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in > front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, > just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). > > I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. > It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. > > Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly > interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get > $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list > who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? > > Thanks for any info. > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 17 04:03:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <200006170622.CAA08249@lexington.ioa.net> References: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the paper, and then to the system. From guerney at bigpond.com Sat Jun 17 08:43:45 2000 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Computing History CD-ROM References: Message-ID: <006b01bfd862$3a335320$c88036cb@default> From: "Pat Barron" > Anyone know anything about the CD referred to at this link: > > http://members.aol.com/HistoryCD/HOC.html > > Is this worth having? > > --Pat. This CD is quite good - there is actually a lot of information in there, pictures, computer descriptions, company histories, biographies etc etc. It is a shame that it exists as two _totally_ disconnected parts. Some of it is in the form of HTML pages, and the rest as Windows Help files (they suggest using Alt-TAB to switch between the two parts - no links! - but there are reasonable links within each of the two parts). There are some contributions from others, such as section on "Shoebox Comptometers" - interesting, but contributes to a jumbled appearance. You keep getting a totally different "Table of Contents", "Index" or "Main" page when browsing different parts. Hidden within it all is stuff I have not seen anywhere else, like a list and some details of 100 computers that were under development between 1945 to 1955. Lots of chronologies, even one on software. The CD I got from Amazon a couple of months ago is Copyright 2000, but no one individual claims credit for it as far as I can see, but one or more people did a lot of work because it does not all appear to have been just lifted from the net. I have not had the chance to delve in detail to see if I can find any errors. I have lifted the following words from the Introduction HTML page to give the publishers own fuller description of what they provide. Phil (Brisbane - Australia) ================================= Introduction This book provides an introduction to the fascinating field of computing history. We have chosen to use an encyclopedia format to provide a wide coverage of the subject, both in terms of time periods and in the types of technologies addressed. This special Year 2000 Edition has been revised and expanded to take advantage of Web Browser technology for viewing the over 300 photos contained in this Encyclopedia The History of Computing Encyclopedia now consists of two parts: Part 1: The Text Portion, consisting of "Windows help file" type documents is accessed by clicking on START, PROGRAMS, HISTORY OF COMPUTING, from your Start menu bar. The text portion contains over 1,000 pages of information. Part 2: The Photo Gallery is accessed through your web browser. The Photo Gallery contains over 300 photos of early machines, computers, components, computer pioneers and more. Your Web Browser should be pointed to: C:\History1\01HISTORYCD-Welcome!.htm Keep both Parts 1 and 2 open and you can toggle back and forth using your Alt-Tab key combination, or your mouse. Contents: In this Encyclopedia you will find information on early calculators, early counting methods, early typewriting mechanisms, developments in vacuum tube technology and transistorized circuits, early electromechanical calculators, early electronic digital computers as well as modern microprocessor-based systems. We have also included information on many computer companies as well as brief biographical sketches of many computer pioneers. Also, this special edition of History of Computing contains Mr. Brooke W. Boering's fascinating historical pages and photos of the Comptometer adding machine. Industry Growth: The number of computers in the world has grown tremendously during the past 20 years. It is estimated that the total number of computers in the world is over 500 million. In the U.S. alone, there are an estimated 160 million computers, with 150 million of these being personal computers. This reference guide covers hundreds of calculators, early large computers and early microcomputers. No single book can cover the entire subject of computing. However, we hope that this unique CD ROM guide will provide you with valuable information that will spark your interest towards further exploration of this fascinating subject. Our Goals are to: - Increase the appreciation of computer history as a valuable topic of study; - Provide a computer-based reference guide to make learning fun and easy; - Provide a general overview of the subject of computing technology; and - Spark your interest in the field and excite you into further reading and exploration! From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 17 08:57:35 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer References: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> <000b01bfd839$e436df00$a18442d8@j8y1v1> Message-ID: <005301bfd863$fee75a80$1a711fd1@default> If he does not want them I will gladly take the doc's and software as I have one of these machines also. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: mike mcmanus To: Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 3:56 AM Subject: Re: Visual 1050 computer > I have doc's & software for it. There yours for the asking. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Battle > To: > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 9:15 PM > Subject: Visual 1050 computer > > > > While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. > > It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, > > a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess > > before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in > > front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, > > just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). > > > > I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. > > It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. > > > > Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly > > interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get > > $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list > > who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? > > > > Thanks for any info. > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Jun 17 06:36:38 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Charles On 16-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> I think the concept we are dealing with here is the supply of something >> simply running out. There were only so many vintage computers ever sold. > > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > concerned, it's "trash".... > >> They don't grow them anymore. > > Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out > hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling > away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old > computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? I've heard that the C=64 is still very popular with the Geritol set (senior citizens). Many just don't want to spend the kind of bucks needed for a Winblows box. Don't know if the same is true for the TI99/4 . . . I remember years back there was a good sized following considering it was one of the first orphaned computers. I've even got one of those in my closet, waiting for a cassette cable, or a new home for someone who really wants one. As far as junk, they thought that of the Edsel, Desoto, Studebaker and Packard, when they were not that old. Given time, everything is worth more thn it is now. Gasoline seems to be a good example . . . . > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jun 17 09:39:00 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer In-Reply-To: <000b01bfd839$e436df00$a18442d8@j8y1v1> References: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000617073820.00ad5900@pacbell.net> At 01:56 AM 6/17/00 -0700, you wrote: >I have doc's & software for it. There yours for the asking. I'm going back to the store to see if it is still there. If they still have it, I'll pick it up, and then I'd love to take you up on the offer. It sounds like an interesting machine. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 17 10:05:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Visual 1050 computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000616210521.00b14320@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I'm on vacation so wait a week for more detail. The winchester port is nto quite as it requires an external adaprtor that getyou you SCSI to an ADATEK or other SCSI bridge to MFM disk. It uses a seperate monitor MGAish, and keyboard(non pc compatable). I'd consider one clean with tube and keyboard for 50-100$ a good deal. If with hard disk box better yet. the two floppies are single sided 96tpi teac fd55-f drives so it does/can do RX50 formats and a few others. It's CA.1985 and a good example of how a 4mhz z80 cpm box can be pushed. The graphics is done by a seperate 6502 so teh z80 is not loaded by that task and ther is 128k ram for the z80 with mmu. This is not the usual Z80 cpm machine. It was sold with CPM-3 on it. I have three of them and full disks/docs. Allison On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > While at a thrift shop today, I came across a "Visual 1050" computer. > It didn't look like a PC, so of course I was intrigued. It has video out, > a parallel port, and port for a winchester (yes, that's the label, I guess > before everybody settled on "hard disk"), and two 5.25" floppies in > front. It isn't a complete system, no monitor, no docs, no software, > just the box itself, not even the keyboard (I think). > > I did a little web searching and found it is a CP/M machine, Z80 based. > It also appears to have 640x240 graphics display as well as text. > > Does anybody know more about this -- is there anything particularly > interesting about it, or is it just another CP/M machine? Will I get > $15 worth of entertainment out of it? Is there someone on the list > who is dying to get their hands on a Visual 1050? > > Thanks for any info. > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From transit at lerctr.org Sat Jun 17 10:08:07 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > I've heard that the C=64 is still very popular with the Geritol set (senior > citizens). Many just don't want to spend the kind of bucks needed for a > Winblows box. > > Don't know if the same is true for the TI99/4 I was in a small TI-club around 1992-1995. I was usually the youngest person there (about 25, while everyone else was in their 50's and 60's). There were younger folks into the TI back then, but it seemed like all of them were from Europe (Germany and Holland mostly) >. . . I remember years back > there was a good sized following considering it was one of the first > orphaned computers. Actually there was a lot of third-party support for it, and there was even a "clone" of sorts (the Myarc Geneve, which used an improved video chip). I think the TI scene got real quiet after the last Fest West in 99, Micropendium (the last major TI magazine) stopped publishing, etc., although users and support for the machines do exist. > I've even got one of those in my closet, waiting for a > cassette cable, or a new home for someone who really wants one. > The consoles were actually pretty common (TI was selling them for as low as $50 during the 1983 shakeout). Other parts (disk drives, expansion boxes, etc.) I don't really see as much anymore. > As far as junk, they thought that of the Edsel, Desoto, Studebaker and > Packard, when they were not that old. Given time, everything is worth more > thn it is now. Gasoline seems to be a good example . . . . Hmm... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 17 13:28:51 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: Re: Programming on Paper (Mike Ford) References: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <14667.50019.854468.677900@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > paper, and then to the system. Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) -Dave McGuire From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 17 13:36:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:08:07AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000617143618.A29142@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:08:07AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: [re TI99/4A] >Actually there was a lot of third-party support for it, and there >was even a "clone" of sorts (the Myarc Geneve, which used an improved >video chip). Oh god, people remember THAT thing ... it was designed by another RPI guy who was one of my roommates at the time, he was doing a co-op at Myarc while a junior (?) at RPI. He also plagiarized a paint program for the Geneve, from another roommate who wrote it for fun, which became Myart (originally called "Easel" by its true author, David Klotzkin). Myarc never did finish making the royalty payments to Dave after the shit hit the fan on that one (boy was he pissed when he realized what had happened). The designer (whom I'd rather not name) had previously done a ROM update for a Myarc floppy controller, evidently whatever he was adding made the code a bit too big for the ROM so he had to do lots of bumming to squeeze it in, a process which he narrated practically byte-by-byte to the rest of us -- anything for attention! I really got the impression that he chose the TI99, not because it's a great machine (it sure isn't!), but because there weren't too many talented hackers producing anything for it and he liked the chance to be a big fish in a little pond. I went along to a TI user's group meeting near Boston with him in the mid 80s and I couldn't believe the ovation he got when they announced he was there, he absolutely reveled in it. Anyway obviously the guy had really serious personality/ethics/ego problems, but he was a sharp kid. The Geneve (well, prototypes anyway, that's all I ever saw) used a PC/XT keyboard instead of the nasty squished TI thing, and could run SCSI disks, and IIRC it had some sort of memory mapper too (maybe just an 'LS612, who knows), and through all of this it was TI99 compatible, more or less at least. Not bad for an undergrad... A pretty good chunk of his rent/food were paid for by the $10 registration fees for his "Fast Term" terminal program which was on Compuserve, evidently it was pretty popular (I gather it was unusual in being able to go above 1200 baud). We got pretty tired of the 6-tone sequence it would squeak out on every ^G though, he had hacked that in as a joke but evidently it ended up being permanent. IIRC the machine's startup screen logo was a nice picture of a swan, drawn by Mi Kyung Kim, the designer's girlfriend. (She was later shot by Colin Ferguson on the LIRR.) Somewhere buried in the ROM was a joke version of the same picture (cartoon style knockout shot with crossed eyes, stars orbiting around its head etc.), that is unless Myarc found out and removed it. Evidently at some point, Myarc wasn't happy about the rate of progress so they (IIRC "they" means Lou Philips and/or his lawyer) showed up at our apartment in person to chew him out, but he bravely hid out in the bathroom. We all thought that was the funniest damn thing! Always a soap opera... John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 17 13:45:32 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? Message-ID: Greetings, Can somene kindly tell me how to lock/unlock the heads on a CDC model PA5N1F15 9" hard drive? I don't see anything that looks like a way to look/unlock the drive when I examine it; do the heads lock/unlock automagically? BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? Wow, this is one heavy, and beautiful drive... looks like a cast-iron housing too! Since the date on the label is 1985 (or 86? I don't recall at the moment), and the HDA media defect information sheet is dated 1998, it looks like I've may have a relatively new drive assembly! :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From transit at lerctr.org Sat Jun 17 13:59:43 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <20000617143618.A29142@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: [...] Myarc Geneve > > more or less at least. Not bad for an undergrad... A pretty good chunk of > his rent/food were paid for by the $10 registration fees for his "Fast Term" > terminal program which was on Compuserve, evidently it was pretty popular > (I gather it was unusual in being able to go above 1200 baud). We got pretty > tired of the 6-tone sequence it would squeak out on every ^G though, he had > hacked that in as a joke but evidently it ended up being permanent. Wasn't that sequence taken from one of the demo programs in the Editor/Assembler manual? > > IIRC the machine's startup screen logo was a nice picture of a swan, drawn > by Mi Kyung Kim, the designer's girlfriend. (She was later shot by Colin > Ferguson on the LIRR.) I heard about that. Wasn't that about the time that Jim "Tigercub" Peterson passed on? Not a particularly happy issue of Micropendium, that one... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 12:48:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: More Stuff In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 16, 0 04:39:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/ba338d39/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 12:57:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jun 16, 0 05:57:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1529 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/96749d8d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 13:10:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at Jun 16, 0 08:29:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/f340e3c8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 17 13:14:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <30.66aa642.267c429e@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jun 16, 0 10:55:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000617/c67b6e3e/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jun 17 14:15:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000617121429.00d0ad00@208.226.86.10> >Since the date on the label is 1985 (or 86? I don't recall at the >moment), and the HDA media defect information sheet is dated 1998, it >looks like I've may have a relatively new drive assembly! :-) You have a refurbished drive. Someone sent it back to the factory, had it refurbished and probably had it in their spares stock. --Chuck From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jun 17 14:03:26 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: E-mail style (was Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:16:45 +0100 (BST)" References: Message-ID: <200006171903.MAA23585@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Seriously, unless there are very good reasons not to, people who send me > HTML mail get ignored (especially if they're asking me for help). And > this will continue. Tony's getting close to the point here: when you post to a mailing list or a newsgroup, you're writing for an audience. If you want your message to be read, you should make it easy for that audience to read the message. Else you run the risk that your audience will not bother, there being 72 other unread messages in the classiccmp in-box this morning. If what you're going on about isn't obvious to me somewhere in the first screenful or two, I'm going to hit the 'n' key and move along. Putting something relevant in the Subject: header can help me make a more informed decision. So can trimming quoted text to just the relevant portions: if I see a couple or three screenfuls of quoting, or can't tell whether I'm seeing quoted or original text, I begin to wonder whether it's worth looking further for something new. Same if I can't find the text for all the markup tags. -Frank McConnell From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 17 15:20:27 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Stuff Message-ID: <20000617202027.71285.qmail@hotmail.com> >Here's something for the Commodore fans (same page). >I've never heard of >this one before: > >CBM 16-bitter. The BX256 is a multiprocessor system >using a 6509 and 8088 >with an optional Z80, 256K of >internal RAM expandable to 640K externally, >40K of ROM, >and interfaces for IEEE-488, RS232, CBM cassette, 8-bit >user >port, and a carthridge slot. The green phosphor >video monitor has >80-columns of 25 lines and has >tilt/swivel controls. The detachable >94-key keyboard >includes a separate numeric keypad featuring a >double->zero key, clear entry key, and a double-size enter key >for ease of >use. The keyboard also has 10 user->definable keys. A built-in 6581 CPU >allows a full 3->voice, 9-octave music synthesizer having an output for >an >external audio system. A dual disk drive is built in >as is a realtime >clock. Software includes BASIC 4.0, >with options of CP/M, CP/M-86, and >UCSD Pascal. The >BX256 micro processor system supportsd all CBM > >peripherals. >Planned price is $2995. Address: Commodore Business >Machines Inc., The >Meadows, 487 Devon Park Drive, Wayne, >PA 19087. I hate to bust your bubble, but this machine was never released. The machine has a CBM tape port, but the ROM has no driving code for it. Commodore's 6509-based machines were never popular to begin with & cost way to much to manufacture, also, C= executives noticed how well the '64 was selling, and, well, you can figure out what happened after that (wither 6509). ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jun 17 15:36:50 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: VAXStation VLC's still available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000617133650.0096ee00@pop.sttl.uswest.net> CC to CLASSICCMP and port-VAX... Hi, folks, As of last weekend, when I was at RE-PC, I noticed that the VAXStation VLC pile still seemed to be the same height. My guess is that the initial asking price was high enough to scare people off. Well, let me put it this way. Mark (one of RE-PC's owners) probably needs the floor space a lot more than the VAXen, so make an offer on a VLC while they're still there! I suggest starting at $20-$25 plus shipping. Since the VLC pile hadn't moved, I'm willing to bet that the 4000/90 is still at the bottom of it. If you want to get in on this, give Mark Dabek a call (206-575-8737), tell him I referred you, and go from there. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jun 17 15:41:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Haggle stuff Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000617134125.00953750@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Oh, BTW, I almost forgot... I have a couple of books up on Haggle under 'Antique Computers.' One of them is an HP binder with a few CE manuals in it that cover, among other things, the 7000-series disk drives, and the other is a DEC book: "Programming in VAX-11 C". The H19 terminal is still there, no bids yet, and there's also a head-mounted display for PCs made by Reflection Technology (it's dated from around 1989, so it meets the ten-year rule). Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 17 17:14:51 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 01:59:43PM -0500 References: <20000617143618.A29142@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000617181451.A29508@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 01:59:43PM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: [6-tone beep in TI99 FastTerm] >Wasn't that sequence taken from one of the demo programs in the >Editor/Assembler manual? Well that would figure! That ^G is the only time I can remember his computer making sound so he may not have been a wiz at programming the sound port (I forget, is it that weird GI chip that MicroMint used to use too?), that would explain referring to the example but it's not reason to snip it out entirely... >I heard about that. Wasn't that about the time that Jim "Tigercub" >Peterson passed on? Not a particularly happy issue of Micropendium, that >one... Beats me, the name sounds very slightly familiar but I was never a TI99 guy. I think the Colin Ferguson thing was roughly the same time as OJ's little adventure, the trials were more or less concurrent (but Ferguson's was a lot more fun to watch!!!). I wonder what ever happened to Ferguson's appeal, IIRC he got 5 life sentences so I naturally figured he was looking to get it cut down to just 3 life sentences. :-) That would be about in character. John Wilson D Bit From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jun 17 17:51:02 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: "R. D. Davis"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:42:37 -0400 (EDT)" References: Message-ID: <200006172251.PAA29587@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > One slight problem: I'm told that the PSU is bad. Upon removing the > cover from the PSU, I noticed that there are three plug-in boards in > the PSU, and one empty PCB connector, the second one back from the > front. Is this circuit board supposed to be missing? I've not teted > the PSU yet, as I didn't know if doing so with this (optional? a > regulator for a voltage this system doesn't need?) board removed will > damage it. Is it safe to power it up with this board missing? Very likely. I pulled the 1000E Installation and Service Manual (HP p/n 02109-90015, dated Nov 1979) and it would appear that the board your power supply is missing is p/n 5061-1349, the battery backup board, which is only present in 1000Es with the battery backup option. To confirm this, there should be another board, 5061-1351, in another slot in the power supply -- this is a jumper board that is used in place of 5061-1348, the battery charger board, when the battery backup option is not present. I think you'll find this latter board in the slot closer to the front. Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly (A6) that is visible when you remove the top cover, and the main adjustment is the +5V ADJ potentiometer that is visible on the power supply board that is partially exposed when you lower the front cover: it's the one that is under the LOCK/OPERATE switch. Supply voltages are: supply v max cur upper lim lower lim test point +5V I/O 50A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5V +5V M 4.5A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5M +12V I/O 2.5A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12V +12V M 2.0A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12 M -2V I/O 4.0A -2.2Vdc -1.8Vdc A6 -2V -12V I/O 2.0A -12.6Vdc -11.4Vdc n/a -12V M 250mA -16Vdc -9Vdc A6 -12M (unregulated) +30V I/O 250mA 42Vdc 22Vdc A6 J2 pin 4 (unregulated) The general thing to do at initial checkout is to adjust the +5V ADJ pot 'til the first of these is at +5.15 +/-0.05 volts, then check the other voltages to make sure they're within range. OK, so what about troubleshooting? There's a flowchart, which I'm not going to try to turn into ASCII, but here's the first question after you turn the machine on: are fans running? Beyond that...well, this flowchart looks like it's intended to help you troubleshoot to board level and in some cases transistor level. So supposing the fans are running, the next questions are whether +5V is present at the crossover board test point, and whether it is adjustable as described above. Feel free to ask questions, I'll keep the manual out for the next few days. -Frank McConnell From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 17 18:08:58 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I had a miniscribe 6085 in my 286 in the late 80's. It is an MFM (ST506 > interface) drive with the same parameters as the Seagate ST4096. I think > cylinders are 1024, heads at 9, and sectors per track at 17. The RLL > model would have an 'R' appended to the model number and would have 26 > sectors per track. > > You might be able to run the RLL model on an MFM controller as the > difference between the two variations is mainly the platters. Rarely are > the drives much different. I ran a 3650 for a couple of years on an > Adaptec ACB4070 bridge controller and believe it or not they worked > perfectly though they weren't rated for RLL linear density. > > Despite thier poor reliability record, I still like Miniscribe drives. > They sound neat. "Peeep wobble wobble Peep". Western Digital bought what > was left of Miniscribe and produced some really aweful drives when IDE was Not so, Maxtor took over Miniscribe. WD bought Jugi Tandon's hard drive business. - don > beginning to really catch on. I remember stacks of dead WD 40mb 3.5" > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > sound neat though..... > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > technoid@cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jun 17 18:19:24 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 References: <3.0.5.32.20000617133650.0096ee00@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <394C077C.67A0DF4@ecubics.com> Hi all, anybody out here has the KXT11-AB Manual ? Any documentation about the T11 chip ? Thanks a lot in advance, emanuel From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 17 18:13:21 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: HP 715/33 available - Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <20000616181452.28753.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <394BA3A1.6032.1F1B47A0@localhost> Re: Organization: Wayne State University From: jbmcb@hotmail.com > I vote that workstation hardware older than 7 years old counts as a classic, > if it's oddball enough. PA-RISC is pretty oddball in my opinion. Oddly enough, the first PA-RISC box we bought was a used HP 9000/834 from ... yes ... Wayne State University (IIRC). Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 17 14:19:57 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> References: Message-ID: <20000617231814.DOXL18496.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:35:19 -0400 > From: technoid@cheta.net > Subject: Re: Miniscribe 6086? > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Snip! > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > sound neat though..... WD was chip maker till they bought out Tandon. In that few years, all of their 20-40-60MB were all steppers and exact same design that Tandon originally designed for 3.5" years back. WD's early HH 3.5" was the basis for all their early 1" height drives but it was so utter unreliable still. Miniscribe was bought out by Maxtor for no reason. Maxtor was famillar enough with voice coil and not as good as Miniscribe still back then. I wondered why many time "Why was the Maxtor looking for when they have Miniscribe's IP in hand?" Only I can see is their Maxtor-designed 7000 series that it. What else? Now, Maxtor is getting better now I think hopefully. I find that stepper has their place and with my experience all die when they're faster than 65ms average seek time. Including Seagate. To seek faster, voice coil is the solution. I once saw a Miniscribe or Maxtor 5.25" FH with 8 or 10 platters w/ voice coil type in a natural colored potmetal oval clamshell split in the middle where spindle axle is and ribbed in whole length of it. What was the series of this one? Wizard From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 17 18:44:26 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? In-Reply-To: <20000617231814.DOXL18496.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:35:19 -0400 > > From: technoid@cheta.net > > Subject: Re: Miniscribe 6086? > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Snip! > > > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > > sound neat though..... > > WD was chip maker till they bought out Tandon. In that few years, > all of their 20-40-60MB were all steppers and exact same design that > Tandon originally designed for 3.5" years back. WD's early HH 3.5" > was the basis for all their early 1" height drives but it was so > utter unreliable still. > > Miniscribe was bought out by Maxtor for no reason. Maxtor was IIRC, Miniscribe was just anout to go belly-up, and Maxtor prevented that. - don > famillar enough with voice coil and not as good as Miniscribe still > back then. I wondered why many time "Why was the Maxtor looking for > when they have Miniscribe's IP in hand?" Only I can see is their > Maxtor-designed 7000 series that it. What else? > > Now, Maxtor is getting better now I think hopefully. > > I find that stepper has their place and with my experience all die > when they're faster than 65ms average seek time. Including Seagate. > To seek faster, voice coil is the solution. > > I once saw a Miniscribe or Maxtor 5.25" FH with 8 or 10 platters w/ > voice coil type in a natural colored potmetal oval clamshell split > in the middle where spindle axle is and ribbed in whole length of it. > What was the series of this one? > > Wizard > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 19:32:14 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 Message-ID: <000617203214.262003b1@trailing-edge.com> >anybody out here has the KXT11-AB Manual ? > >Any documentation about the T11 chip ? I've got the KXT11-CA book on microfiche. Is that close enough? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 17 19:46:28 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay References: <200006161944.MAA23320@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <394C1BE4.D1956829@rain.org> Dwight Elvey wrote: > > I still think it would be to Ebays advantage to keep such > things as at least item, purchase price, seller and buyer. > I often look to use what resources they have. Finding buyers > of rare old equipment is desirable. Keeping a list While ebay doesn't keep stuff very long (2 weeks after the auction IIRC), they do better than the other places who don't seem to have a clue how useful past auctions are and don't offer that info at all! From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jun 17 20:17:16 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 References: <000617203214.262003b1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <394C231C.F147CA1@ecubics.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >anybody out here has the KXT11-AB Manual ? > > > >Any documentation about the T11 chip ? > > I've got the KXT11-CA book on microfiche. Is that close enough? Sorry, no. I got the kxt11-ca user's guide myself (it is still orderable ;-)) I'm really looking for the old kxt11-ab one. The double not quad card :-( Thanks, emanuel From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 17 20:19:29 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: E-mail style (was Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation) References: <200006171903.MAA23585@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <394C23A1.58B2122D@rain.org> Frank McConnell wrote: > > If what you're going on about isn't obvious to me somewhere in the > first screenful or two, I'm going to hit the 'n' key and move along. I see I am not the only person that refuses to wade through a lot of irrevelent and/or quoted postings. If more than the first six or so lines of a message don't get to the point, I won't waste my time trying to find out if they are worth reading ... they aren't. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:17:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> (message from Chuck McManis on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:57:12 -0700) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000616174420.00cb6c80@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000618011733.7443.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > As you have no doubt noticed, this email is "formatted" with HTML and > should you choose to view it in an HTML aware window it could include > emphasis and underlines that were pretty darn unobtrusive. Actually your message wasn't really valid HTML since the message you quoted using the right angle brackets (as I've quoted your message above) should really have ">" instead. But your point is well-taken. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:18:38 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:44:58 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000618011838.7460.qmail@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > involved three PDP-12s (one a super-12), What's a super-12? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:20:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <20000616221022.B27797@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:10:22 -0400) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE20@TEGNTSERVER> <200006162114.RAA23670@flathead.gate.net> <394AB730.28173.251B0227@localhost> <20000616221022.B27797@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000618012053.7481.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Hmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar. I kind of think I vaguely remember > reading magazine articles in the early 80s about the /// being discontinued > and then re-introduced in "new & improved" form. But I wouldn't know... The Apple ///+. Very short product life. > Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop the > entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering it > on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew > through the oxide? Wild... Not in the user manual, but some people did it. The problem was that Apple used bargain-basement DIP sockets on the early machines. In shipping the chips would work loose. Back then there shouldn't yet have been too much trouble with oxidation, but there certainly is now. The "correct" fix is obviously to open it up and reseat the ICs. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 17 20:26:05 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> (mgregory@vantageresearch.com) References: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <20000618012605.7536.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Any other examples of semi-official fixes like this one? The only other one I saw someone at Apple explain the semi-official fix for the Seagate drive stiction problem, or was it the Quantum lubrication problem? I forget. It went something like this: 1. Disk drives are mechanically delicate devices. Handle them carefully and do not subject them to unnecessary shock. 2. The drive electronics are static sensitive. Make sure you take all the precautions against static discharge, including using a grounded wrist strap, etc. 3. Carefully open the computer. 4. Carefully disconnect the cables from the disk drive. Remember, the cables are delicate and the pins are easily bent. 5. Remove the screws holding the drive in place. Don't drop the drive! 6. Remove the drive. 7. Hold the drive in one hand, a few feet above a very sturdy surface. 8. Whack the drive against the surface as hard as you can. 9 & up: [reinstall drive in computer, roughly the reverse of the steps above.] As I recall, the instructions were in fact even more anal-retentive about careful handling of the drive (prior to the whacking part). :-) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 17 20:46:52 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: In a message dated 6/17/00 9:25:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eric@brouhaha.com writes: > > Hmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar. I kind of think I vaguely > remember > > reading magazine articles in the early 80s about the /// being > discontinued > > and then re-introduced in "new & improved" form. But I wouldn't know... > > The Apple ///+. Very short product life. > > > Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop > the > > entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering > it > > on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew > > through the oxide? Wild... > > Not in the user manual, but some people did it. The problem was that Apple > used bargain-basement DIP sockets on the early machines. In shipping the > chips would work loose. Back then there shouldn't yet have been too much > trouble with oxidation, but there certainly is now. The "correct" fix is > obviously to open it up and reseat the ICs. not only that, but the memory board is mounted above the main board on metal standoffs with no other support. (at least on the 256k /// i had) Over the years, that board had become permanetly warped due to sagging in the middle and the attachment screws being overtorqued. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 17 21:52:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006172251.PAA29587@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Greetings, Thanks for the help with the 1000E's PSU! On 17 Jun 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: [...] > board your power supply is missing is p/n 5061-1349, the battery > backup board, which is only present in 1000Es with the battery Good; I won't have to go hunting down a missing board. :-) > backup option. To confirm this, there should be another board, [...] I'll look for this. > Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it > installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly Just to be on the safe side, I'll try it out of the computer first if it will work with no load just to make sure that there aren't any bad spikes or voltages way too high - using something else to load it if necessary. If ok, then I'll reinstall the PSU and make any necessary adjustments. [voltages, test points, adjustments] Ok, I'll check those to see which ones aren't working or are out of spec., if the fans are running, etc. > Feel free to ask questions, I'll keep the manual out for the next few > days. Will do. Thanks! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 18 00:05:57 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: <20000618011838.7460.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > What's a super-12? PDP-12 #10 is the super-12 (non-official term) that includes the floating point option and an RK05. Interestingly, the RK05 is run from a standard RK8E embedded in a chassis behind the -12s covers. There is a special interface to get the PDP-12 (I forget if it is negibus or posibus) to talk to the "processor-less PDP-8/e" within. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rexstout at uswest.net Sun Jun 18 01:26:02 2000 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: New stuff! Wahoo! Message-ID: Added about a dozen boxes of Macintosh software and some minor hardware items to the collection, as well as a TRS-80 Model 100 with some books and a few ROM modules. Seems to be working just fine, but the bottom is covered in duct tape to keep some covers from falling off. Even got a modem cable! Oh yeah, and three boxes of aviation material, including several flight computers(Jeppesen CR-5 and CR-2, a plastic Dalton E-6B, a Cessna Model 185 computer, a Delta II Take-off computer, a half-plastic half-metal Dalton E-6B, a pair of CPU-26A/P's(all-metal), and a pair of Weems aircraft plotters). In the Mac stuff there are tons of programs, at least a half dozen copies of PageMaker, lots of odds and ends(what the heck do you do with a financial planner desk accessory? I don't even know if MacOS 8 supports those!) that I haven't sorted through yet. The MacSnap box was empty :-(, but there was an external 800k floppy drive. Anyone know of any good sites for TRS-80 stuff? OK, now the interesting part... It's an 8-volume book set called "The Secret Guide to Computers", tenth edition. Popular BASIC(Vol 1), Popular Systems(Vol 3), Popular Applications(Vol 5), Popular Languages(Vol 7), and then Hassles in BASIC(Vol 2), Hassles in Systems(Vol 4), Hassles in Applications(Vol 6) and Hassles in Languages(Vol 8). -- /--------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \--------------------------------------------------/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 18 01:10:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: New stuff! Wahoo! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >OK, now the interesting part... It's an 8-volume book set called >"The Secret Guide to Computers", tenth edition. Popular BASIC(Vol 1), >Popular Systems(Vol 3), Popular Applications(Vol 5), Popular >Languages(Vol 7), and then Hassles in BASIC(Vol 2), Hassles in >Systems(Vol 4), Hassles in Applications(Vol 6) and Hassles in >Languages(Vol 8). >-- Hey, if these are what I think they are they're pretty cool, though I thought there was just 3 volumes. Are they about 8.5x11, and .5-1 inch thick? ISTR, the volume 3 as being a 'interesting' look at the computers available in the early to mid-80's. I'm pretty sure I've got the first 3, but they seem to have lost the bookcase space fight at some point and been moved to storage as they're no longer where I thought they were :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 18 01:12:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:43 2005 Subject: KXT11-AB, T11 In-Reply-To: <394C231C.F147CA1@ecubics.com> References: <000617203214.262003b1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >I'm really looking for the old kxt11-ab one. The double not quad card >:-( > >Thanks, >emanuel Out of curiousity what are you trying to do with the card? It looks like a mildly interesting card. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 18 01:31:44 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <20000618012605.7536.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:26:05AM -0000 References: <029601bfd803$de3ceee0$0200a8c0@marvin> <20000618012605.7536.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000618023144.A30321@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:26:05AM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >I saw someone at Apple explain the semi-official fix for the Seagate drive >stiction problem, or was it the Quantum lubrication problem? I forget. [...] >8. Whack the drive against the surface as hard as you can. Back before I got tired of being Seagate's bitch, I used to use this same operation w/o bothering with the disassembly/reassembly steps. I'd just whack the shit out of my PC, and it would start working again. I was pleasantly surprised, each time I was so pissed off that I didn't really care whether I got my data back, I just wanted the #~!% Seagate drive to die Die DIE!!! I've since learned my lesson, I'll buy any piece of crap as long as it's not Seagate (or Maxtor, blech), everything else seems to be perfectly reliable enough. I especially liked Conner, no wonder Seagate had to kill them. John Wilson D Bit From nabil at spiritone.com Sun Jun 18 07:14:32 2000 From: nabil at spiritone.com (Aaron Nabil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > What's a super-12? > > PDP-12 #10 is the super-12 (non-official term) that includes the floating > point option and an RK05. Interestingly, the RK05 is run from a standard > RK8E embedded in a chassis behind the -12s covers. There is a special > interface to get the PDP-12 (I forget if it is negibus or posibus) to > talk to the "processor-less PDP-8/e" within. That would be a DW8E. -- Aaron Nabil From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 18 11:20:40 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 Message-ID: Greetings, is anyone here familiar with an NCR model 3401, class 5451 "application processor"? On a hand-written label on the front of the machine there's a description of the memory in it: 8MB, 145ns. This box has the following switches on the front panel, in addition to the power switch: Station ID (two thumbwheels) Load options: local/aux disk/tape primary OS/alt OS BCD restart/system reset diag port: on/off mode: normal/diagnostic ps margin: +5%/normal/-5% On the back of the machine are the following connectors: LS link (low speed link?): pos 0, pos1, pos2 (9-pin) Diagostic port (25-pin - RS232 port?) System bus: channel A, channel B (9-pin) HS link (high speed linl?): pos 4, pos 5, pos6, pos7 (9-pin) One interesting thing about this system is a board labeled "writeable control store" - does anyone know it this is user microprogrammable? On this board are about 45 AMD (I think) 8648 ICs and about 27 8651 ICs, in addition to what I think may be EEPROMs (Fairchild MB7142H), as well as morotola 8644A, 8644B, 8648 and 8649 chips and a few other ICs. Attached to this board is a other board that is apparently the main part of the CPU with about 6 (from what I recall) square ICs, about 1" square, with heat-sinks that I haven't figured out how to remove yet to see the part numbers. Did anyone here purchase the machine like this that was listed on e-bay? Another apparently related NCR box that appeas to connect to the SMD drive only has the following indentification on it: "class H6830-STD1-01-46." Coming out the back are three cables: one that looks like it's got about 50 conductors in it, and two that appear to have about 20 to 25 conductors (these are just my guesses, haven't counted them). There are also two 50-pin connectors. I think this connects to the hard disk, but I can't figure out how, or if, it connects to the model 3401. Is anyone here familiar with the above equipment? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 18 12:20:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 18, 0 12:20:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000618/ea193183/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 18 12:16:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 17, 0 10:52:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000618/2999fc6a/attachment-0001.ksh From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 18 14:34:26 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > HP were fond of suggesting that you do this :-(, even on machines where > the PSU could easily fail in a way that the 5V output went up to a very > high level (like 30V!) I often wondered if it was to sell more CPU boards > ;-). Zog! Why can't they build power supplies with a dummy load built in, or at least a dummy load and a "test" switch so that the dummy load isn't attached to the output when the computer is? > > Just to be on the safe side, I'll try it out of the computer first if > > it will work with no load just to make sure that there aren't any bad > > Be warned that a lot of HP PSUs of the early 1970's vintage (at least) > don't like being run with no load. I normally load them with a 6V 5W or > 6V 21W bulb (depending on the rating of the PSU) before turning them on. I'll try to find a bulb to use. Is it only the 5V supply that has to be loaded? I've got a resistor that was used for loading a Sun shoebox with a tape drive and no PSU; I wonder if that would work. I'll have to see what value it is; about a 10W resistor, IIRC. Of course, if the PSU has no lose bits in it, and has already been turned on by someone else before I got it, hasn't any damage that's going to be done already been done? Hopefully I'll not get LARTed for asking this, but, how likely am I to do any additional damage at this point by turning it on attached to the sytem and checking the voltages? > Some service manuals warn (in bold printing) against running the PSU > board with no load (it may even imply that the only load you can use is > the CPU board!). I have never tried to run a PSU like that unloaded, so I > have no idea what would happen, but I can't think it would be a good idea. Thanks for the warning! > really going on and work out my own set of tests. Mainly because I then > understand what I am measuring and can make valid deductions if (for > example) I see a very odd voltage or waveform at a particular point. Makes sense; after all, that's what schematics are for, or, don't people know how to read them these days? Alas, I don't have a set of schematics, and will have to settle for whatever info. I can get from someone who has any troubleshooting information - within reason, of course. > For much the same reason I've never found signature analysis to be a > particularly useful technique. What's signature analysis? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 18 15:02:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 18, 0 03:34:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000618/110dc217/attachment-0001.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 18 16:28:26 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Blah this is no longer about Tek anything so die subject line die Message-ID: <20000618212826.75123.qmail@hotmail.com> a 20 year old MicroVAX II?... That's pretty amazing, since the MicroVAX II is 1986ish or so... MicroVAX I isn't even 20 years old yet, getting close, but not there. Just my two cents worth of picking nits. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 13:21:11 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Digital tower with processor card 486dx2 w/ 256K cache, six 72pin slots and onboard scsi. DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so many worked with digital/DEC equipment. Tinkering with it produced few surprises, ram issue and several undocumented jumpers on the processor card. When trying to run 3 pairs of simms in it, I still get 16MB if as it has 2 pairs of ram installed. This is one of few machines that must be run with simms in pairs. I would love to get it to full capacity of 24MB. I need to know the jumpers on that processor card as well, this might be a reason for this memory issue. Also must this machine require parity simms? Didn't try it with non-parity simms yet. And I'm looking for a pentium or alpha processor card for this DECpc XL 466DX2 Thanks. Wizard From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 18 17:56:59 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: [DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww] > I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so > many worked with digital/DEC equipment. Yes, but real DEC equipment, not the Intel-impaired equipment made by DEC during it's decline. > And I'm looking for a pentium or alpha processor card for this > DECpc XL 466DX2 Perhaps you can trade it in on a classic computer and then not have to worry about that. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 14:14:21 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: References: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <20000618231236.PUBX18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:56:59 -0400 (EDT) > From: "R. D. Davis" > Subject: Re: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > [DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww] > > I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so > > many worked with digital/DEC equipment. > > Yes, but real DEC equipment, not the Intel-impaired equipment made by > DEC during it's decline. No wonder with that ram size problem and using Intel chipsets. Oh well, I can give it back or use it as is or sell it for some thing else. > Perhaps you can trade it in on a classic computer and then not have > to worry about that. Sounds good but this thing weighs about 25 to 30 lbs in that configuration without any HDs. Heavy and will cost bit quite for shipping! Cheers, Wizard From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 18 23:06:05 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: <200006170307.UAA39779@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000619000605.006b9ee0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:07 PM 6/16/00 -0700, Frank McConnell wrote: -snip- >That would be about right, I think. The HP terminals that I'm >familiar with generally had cables whose far ends were a >DB25 plug that wanted to plug into a DCE-flavored connector. > >Good luck! Well, I made the cable and plugged it into a terminal. The right voltages appear on the correct lines. However, the card never asserts DTR or RTS when I turn the computer on. I also discovered that the HD in the 7946 is busted (haven't opened it yet)-the "online" light doesn't come on, but the "fault" light does. It seems to have trouble spinning up. So, loading an OS is out of the question for a while. Is it possible to at least run some tests and have it output diagnostics to one of the BACI cards? There is a sheet of paper glued to the front panel with instructions on how to reboot the system; it says to load the S/s register with ones in bits 15,14,9, and 6, then hit the store, preset, some other button, then preset again and finally the run button. This is from memory; the machine is at work. I've done that, but nothing seems to happen. The only sign of activity is immediately after turning the machine on; a LED on one of the memory cards lights up for about two seconds, then turns off. carlos. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 19 00:06:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> References: Message-ID: Since your only response so far was so rude, I decided to see what I could come up with. The system might not be old enough to be on topic, but it does look like a nicely constructed piece of gear. Unfortuantly the only thing I was able to dig up was a Systems and Options Catalogue, but it pointed me in the right direction. >Digital tower with processor card 486dx2 w/ 256K cache, six 72pin >slots and onboard scsi. DECpc XL 466DX2 model: 775-ww > >I thought this would be best place to put in this list because so >many worked with digital/DEC equipment. > >Tinkering with it produced few surprises, ram issue and several >undocumented jumpers on the processor card. > >When trying to run 3 pairs of simms in it, I still get 16MB if as it >has 2 pairs of ram installed. This is one of few machines that must >be run with simms in pairs. I would love to get it to full capacity >of 24MB. > >I need to know the jumpers on that processor card as well, this might >be a reason for this memory issue. Also must this machine require >parity simms? Didn't try it with non-parity simms yet. The full capacity is actually 192MB apparently (it's also listed as 128MB), though I wouldn't recommend trying to accomplish that. This system uses the same RAM as some of my Alpha's, which means it rather expensive, unless you find it used. You need True-Parity 72-pin SIMM's for this system. I don't believe EDO will work. I know the Alpha's that use the same RAM are fairly picky. >And I'm looking for a pentium or alpha processor card for this >DECpc XL 466DX2 OK, I see such beasties are actually advertised as being eventually available. Interesting. You might be able to find a Pentium processor if you're very lucky, but I don't believe you'll be able to find a Alpha processor for it, and if you do I imagine you'll be very limited as to what you're able to run on it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 20:35:41 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww In-Reply-To: References: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <200006190540.BAA04817@smtp11.bellglobal.com> > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:06:11 -0700 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Re: Try one more: Digital DECpc XL 466DX2 model 775-ww > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Since your only response so far was so rude, I decided to see what I could > come up with. All I ask was few feedbacks then back to on topic on classics. > > The system might not be old enough to be on topic, but it does look like a > nicely constructed piece of gear. Unfortuantly the only thing I was able > to dig up was a Systems and Options Catalogue, but it pointed me in the > right direction. That little no wonder, compaq is too intent on killing off decent Digital stuff off in favor of their compaq stuff that is looks like top #1 which is really wasn't. Touch one and Compaq machine crashes out. > The full capacity is actually 192MB apparently (it's also listed as 128MB), > though I wouldn't recommend trying to accomplish that. This system uses > the same RAM as some of my Alpha's, which means it rather expensive, unless > you find it used. You need True-Parity 72-pin SIMM's for this system. I > don't believe EDO will work. I know the Alpha's that use the same RAM are > fairly picky. Thanks that helps. No wonder this machine came to me with ram and it's cdrom and hd stripped. These simms I used are true parity type 12 chip type all 70ns, 1MBx36. I also have small stash of matched pairs of 18 chip 2MBx36 simms to try later. But this machine hold me little interest that I have found out it's limitions. I have peecee (pentium and PII) parts but no case or two to stuff in yet. > processor for it, and if you do I imagine you'll be very limited as to what > you're able to run on it. Thanks, this machine was real treat to look at besides the peecees I worked at part time job on but two negatives about this case. One: 3 ext and 1int bays in a real heavy tower. Two: and very few choices of FPM parity simms I have. PSU is very electric guzzler so I'm scared of running it for any length of time without running up too much bill. Later on, I will offer up the few items to barter with for classic machine to play with. What classic to not yet decided. Wink wink. :-) > Zane Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 18 21:21:15 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: compaq SLT PSU dead. In-Reply-To: References: <20000618221925.PFKV18673.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <20000619061929.UNUA18496.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Compaq SLT PSU dead. Power DC plug is DEATACHABLE from power brick, model number: 2687. Other SLT PSU bricks aren't deatachable. No signs of power and fuse not blown. Uses compaq's relabeled common UC3842 pinout PWM ic, yes I traced enough from the UC3842 datasheet. Single chopper tranny is MOSFET (BUK456-800A by philips). R512 and R500 are now ashes. I need the resistor values on these. What good subs for this MOSFET? And any gotchas? I have looked up on this specs on this transistor but I'm not so sure and *very* diffcult to buy that correct part so I need to sub this transistor out from bunch of choices that has 1-MOSFET PSUs with different types of 8pin UCxxxx PWM on it. Everything else are fine. Cheers. Trying to get SLT 286 going because other bunch of SLT 286 and SLT 386s/20 was given away with own working bricks. Those working bricks was not correct model like this kind I have in pieces and this is remaining SLT 286 I want to keep. Wizard From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 03:10:34 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) References: <20000608195359.2203.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <040801bfd9c5$d8644d60$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 5:23 AM Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) > > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Another good solution for the terminally challenged is > > *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only > > real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a > > terminal when nothing else is handy... > > I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local > box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with > Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no > flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the > Kermit-ly challenged, modern versions contain an IP stack; just add packet > driver; that's how my Commodore Colt is on my network). I was playing with a Toshiba T1200 XT laptop today. It has a PureData PDT8023 ethernet card that fits in an expansion slot, card is similar to a WD8003. Found some drivers on the Puredata website and have managed to get KA9Q NOS running on it. Telneted into the Vax at work from the shop via the ICS gateway on a 98SE box. Very cool. TRACE 111 gives you pretty much a packet sniffer too... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob at stmarks dot pp dot catholic dot edu dot au ICQ: 1970476 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 02:31:07 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. Message-ID: I've posted a review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc., to the VCF website. http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=003 It's a good book and I highly recommend it, especially if you're an Apple fan. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From guerney at bigpond.com Mon Jun 19 08:06:14 2000 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. References: Message-ID: <000d01bfd9ef$2a5b4960$dd8136cb@default> Sellam said in his VCF site review of this book: "You first realize this is not just another book about Apple when it begins with an Apple factoid that even I (a lifelong Apple fanatic) didn't even know about. It reveals that Apple actually had one other founder besides the two Steves, a man by the name of Ronald Wayne who got cold feet and bailed out shortly after Apple's official founding (he's the guy who designed the logo of Newton sitting under the Apple tree on the Apple-1 manual)." Poor Ron Wayne, who sold out his 10% of the company for $500, is missing from all the Apple company stories that I have read, but his involvement is described well in Fire in the Valley by Freiberger and Swaine on pages 265-267 of the updated version that came out this year. Phil (Brisbane, Australia) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, 19 June 2000 17:31 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. > > I've posted a review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple > Computer, Inc., to the VCF website. > > http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=003 > > It's a good book and I highly recommend it, especially if you're an Apple > fan. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 08:25:06 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2B@TEGNTSERVER> > ...and way too much time on their hands with few (if any) outlets for > their frustrations. > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Sure... Sign EXtension.... in x86-speak, it's cbw ; sign-extend byte to word or cwd ; sign-extend word to doubleword How does that help with frustration? ;-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 08:47:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2C@TEGNTSERVER> Cool... that way, you can make mistakes faster! Here's a pointer to a short story on a programmer whom I've never met, but whom I am certain is a soul brother... http://www.multicians.org/thvv/andre.html > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul R. Santa-Maria [mailto:paulrsm@ameritech.net] > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 5:22 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) > > > ---------- > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > > Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard > > Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM > > > > Since I compose > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), > > Because I can type much faster than I can write. > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Ann Arbor, Michigan USA > paulrsm@ameritech.net > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 08:50:03 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2D@TEGNTSERVER> > > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? > > Aargh! If we knew about that do you think we'd be living alone with > 20 old computers and nothing else? :-) > > Some times I think we're the male, technological version of the "Cat > Lady"....:-) I recently broke up with my girlfriend, and her possesion of seven cats in a tiny apartment was one of the reasons... ...now, realizing I've got _way_ more than seven computers makes me question my own sanity. oh well. -dq From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 19 09:03:25 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701bfd9f7$23736da0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > The worst name I ever saw attached to a computer was... A friend of mine has a piece of test equipment in his basement, apparently biomed, with nameplate writing: "Grass Stimulus Analyzer" Apparently the manufacturer's name was Grass or some such. Looked authentic. John A. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 09:04:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2E@TEGNTSERVER> > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > paper, and then to the system. I think the immediacy of interactive programming causes the programmer to tend to exit the design loop early, before the design has actually crystallized in the mind. Working with paper provides the slowdown needed to allow this crystallization to occur. And now that I think about it... ISTR a paper by someone at Purdue during the 60s, a paper exploring the value of interactive computing (timesharing), and it specifically referred to hypothetical systems so fast that the benefits of being able to immediately submit a design to test would be lost due to the programmer jumping out of the design loop too quickly. But, to each his own... as long as they're not working for me. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 09:07:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2F@TEGNTSERVER> > In the past I have tried to write code to paper and failed to do much with > it. Outlines are about as far as I can go. I did this because I wanted to > continue work or pass the time when I didn't have a machine in front of me > (in high-school or waiting in the Doctor's office). I guess it's what you become used to. Timesharing used to cost beaucoups bucks, so you worked offline as much as possible. That economic reality did engender a generation of higher-quality software than we've seen since, though... I blame a lot of the low-quality of current software on the program-by-the-seat-of- your-pants method. -dq From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 19 09:49:39 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper References: <20000616221304.ZBJD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> <14667.50019.854468.677900@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000619144447.60483.qmail@hotmail.com> Usually my code compiles the first time. It doesn't necessarily do what I want.... :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Programming on Paper > On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > > paper, and then to the system. > > Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) > > -Dave McGuire > From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 19 09:57:28 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:16:52 +0100 (BST)" References: Message-ID: <200006191457.HAA95058@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it > > > installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly > > HP were fond of suggesting that you do this :-(, even on machines where Yes, this was not my idea. I spent some time staring at the manual convincing myself that there were no directions for testing the power supply with a less expensive load. I suspect HP's thought was that they would probably have the service contract, and if the power supply was going to fail in a way that fried other stuff then it would have already fried the other stuff by the time the service call was placed, and the CE would have those boards in his kit too. > Incidentally, am I the only person who finds the faultfinding flowcharts > (like the ones that HP published in a lot of their service manuals) to be > fairly useless? You know the ones that say > 'Is there a clock at pin 3 of U5 > Yes : Is there a high level at .... > No : Replace U5, X1, C1, C2 in order.' It looks vaguely useful for people like me: a programmer with soldering iron type who appears to have a read-only mind w/r/t the more interesting bits of electronics. At least it would get me to a board that I could then try to trace out and ask questions about. That's why I pointed rdd through the first couple of bits -- they will tell whether the power supply is alive at all and whether the fundamental adjustment has any effect. Unfortunately I don't think I have schematics for 1000s or 21MXs. Well, not complete ones. Tonight I picked up the 21MX E-series Installation and Service Manual instead of the 1000 E-series one. Guess what, it's got appendices, including Appendix B with schematics for the operator panel, 16K memory module, 8K memory module, and 4K memory module. Not the power supply though. Hmm, on the other hand I'm not sure it would matter, it looks like the power supply is different in the 21MX -- instead of board with daughterboards, it's got an upper and a lower board. Guess the difference is deeper than the front panel silk-screening. -Frank McConnell From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 19 10:57:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) (Chris Kennedy) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 16, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > > its introduction. > > I suppose it depends on what you define as "changed very little". '71, '73, > '74, '76, '78, '82 and '85 all introduce significant chassis changes. > The liquid-cooled current production engine has only passing resemblance > to the air-cooled precursors and the transaxle has seen radical changes. > About the only thing that is really constant about the car is the shape, > the transmission-in-front-of-differential-in-front-of-engine-layout > and the organization of the engine as a boxer-six. Oh, and the location > of the ignition on the left-hand side of the wheel :-) > > Look hard enough and almost every bit has been radically revisited, which > coupled with the amazing ability to graft in stuff from the 930/34/35 and > even a few 928 bits, makes for *all sorts* of fun for those of us who get > geeky over 911s... :-) When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking lot, they're damn near identical. -Dave McGuire From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 19 11:27:52 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? -Bob >VCF 4.0 is tentatively scheduled for Saturday, September 30 - Sunday, >October 1. The venue this year in the San Jose Convention Center >in San Jose, California. > >More details to come! > >Sellam International Man of Intrigue >and Danger >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jun 19 12:00:51 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > lot, they're damn near identical. Without a doubt. That the stylistic lines are essentially the same as they were in 1966 is nothing short of amazing. I suppose some Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but I did say *car*... :-) -Christo -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 12:08:04 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE31@TEGNTSERVER> On June 17, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > > paper, and then to the system. > > Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists (Tom VanVleck, who might respond to being so identified as "Me? I'm just a programmer!"): : It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen : it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient : is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code : perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used Soviet space shuttle) was assigned to take over my work. In the month we worked together, we became friends, and so stayed in touch after I left. A couple or three years later, Dmitri and I were having lunch, and feeling a mood which had me wondering if I'd done the right thing in giving up programming, I asked him how much trouble he'd had with my code. "None." I probed deeper, knowing he was a good programmer and that he might have misinterpreted the thrust of the question. Right out, I asked him if he would character the severity and frequency of the bugs left in the extensive codebase I'd pushed. He stopped me, saying he'd understood me perfectly the first time, and said "No bugs in your code, Doug; you write best assembly language." If only I could have found an employer who felt that way! I was ultimately fired because the boss cared more about expeditiousness than about quality. That, and I think he tired of some of my behavioral quirks..... ;-) -doug q -doug q From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 19 12:10:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: Re: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) (Chris Kennedy) References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <14670.21509.404832.455805@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 19, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > > lot, they're damn near identical. > > Without a doubt. That the stylistic lines are essentially the same > as they were in 1966 is nothing short of amazing. I suppose some > Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of > a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese > manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but > I did say *car*... :-) Yup...look at the Firebird or the Camaro. How many completly different body styles from the late 60's til now? Five? Six? And we don't even want to talk about what happened to the Chevelle and the Nova. The only similarities between the old & new of those models are in the names. -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 11:08:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: <000d01bfd9ef$2a5b4960$dd8136cb@default> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Phil Guerney wrote: > Sellam said in his VCF site review of this book: > > "You first realize this is not just another book about Apple when it begins > with an Apple factoid that even I (a lifelong Apple fanatic) didn't even > know about. It reveals that Apple actually had one other founder besides the > two Steves, a man by the name of Ronald Wayne who got cold feet and bailed > out shortly after Apple's official founding (he's the guy who designed the > logo of Newton sitting under the Apple tree on the Apple-1 manual)." > > Poor Ron Wayne, who sold out his 10% of the company for $500, is missing > from all the Apple company stories that I have read, but his involvement is > described well in Fire in the Valley by Freiberger and Swaine on pages > 265-267 of the updated version that came out this year. There's no mention of him in the original edition. For his part, according to the book, he claims he doesn't regret the decision :) (considering the circumstances it quite plausible) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Mon Jun 19 12:12:48 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: The Mini (1958?-present) and the FX-4 (1959-1997) came immediately to mind. On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > > lot, they're damn near identical. > > Without a doubt. That the stylistic lines are essentially the same > as they were in 1966 is nothing short of amazing. I suppose some > Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of > a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese > manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but > I did say *car*... :-) > > -Christo > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 12:12:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE32@TEGNTSERVER> > > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > > Since I compose > > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), > > You do that too? I always got more code written in a shorter period > of time that way. When modifying code, paper is all the more useful, > particularly wide greenbar with the code to be modified or added to > printed out on it. My former employer had no printer with greenbar, > which really came as a shock to me, as every place else I'd ever > worked had at least one high-speed line printer. It's too annoying to > make changes to long programs on the screen; much easier to leaf > through pages of code and pencil in changes, draw lines here and > there, circle things, etc. than to go from screen to screen with an > editor, as that can become confusing with large programs. No wonder > modern code has become so bloated and full of bugs; the programmers > have less of an idea what they're working on. I'm bidding on a DECwriter III so that I can have something I can load greenbar into on the Prime; I also bought a wide-carriage Imagewriter for the same reason. That gives me a backup, I guess. Greenbar's going for about $30 per box these days. > Even stranger was the fact that most of the people I worked with, who > were programmers, had no idea what greenbar was, even when it was > described to them! Yeah, the phrase "line printer" will probably elicit as much of a furrowed brow from these newbies as would "unit record". > Hopefully line printers and wide dot-matrix printers aren't on their > way to becoming obsolete. Well, both printers alluded to above were found on E-Bay, so they must be rare.... :-) -dq From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 11:13:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? At one point I was seriously considering a VCF East this summer but time is too tight unfortunately, so it'll have to wait until next year (unless someone wants to travel to the east coast in the dead of winter...I know I don't :) If someone wants to help host a midwest edition then contact me and we'll discuss the possibilities. sellam@vintage.org Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 12:42:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) Message-ID: <20000619174217.25189.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > (Tom VanVleck... > > The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: > > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > Soviet space shuttle) I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. :-P -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 12:45:12 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: <20000619174512.878.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bob Brown wrote: > Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? > > -Bob Being in Ohio, I'd second that. I could even help host one, if it's close enough to travel to (the midwest being such a vague and nebulous space). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 19 12:45:21 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <394DF9C1.6025.283C0F5F@localhost> Hi Sellam, Re: > http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=003 good review...looks like an interesting book! BTW, some search engines won't search cgi-bin pages, so you might reconsider why you have a simple text page being delivered via CGI ... if you want it indexed. SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 19 12:46:07 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <394DF9EF.29734.283CC2B5@localhost> Re: my response to Sellam. Oops...that was supposed to be private. Sorry. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 13:02:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE33@TEGNTSERVER> > --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > > (Tom VanVleck... > > > > The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: > > > > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html > > > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > > Soviet space shuttle) > > I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never > heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew > once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the > Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. Now that you've said it, I do recall Dmitri called it the "Buran"; it was some other reference lost to memory that called it the "Snowflake"... I always ASS-U-MEd Buran == Snowflake... -dq From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 19 13:14:57 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE31@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <200006191814.LAA10395@civic.hal.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > (Tom VanVleck, who might respond to being so identified as "Me? > I'm just a programmer!"): > > : It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen > : it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient > : is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code > : perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. > Hi While it is possible to write bug-free code on paper, it is generally considered a waste of valuable time to no use feedback methods that include running the code on real machines. What is actually important is getting a bug free product in the shortest amount of time. It is better to have a method of incremental testing that can uncover bugs early than to have someone that spends weeks analyzing code by inspection on paper. Most people that program don't consider testing their code as they write ( I'm guilty as well ). The best and the fastest coding I've ever done included regular testing to make sure it was working correctly. I've found from my experience that the best code had about 50/50 write to test time and that if I wrote code for more than 2 hours without testing, the debugging time would increase. Following good programming rules helps to generate good code but doesn't guarantee it. I will break these rules cautiously when it is desirable towards that end result. It is vary important that one understand the potential problems this can later cause and include test code ( commented out ) that a later programmer can use to make sure it is functioning correctly. Rules like " Don't make self modifying code." are good general rules but entire languages are based on doing just that. Does it make the language bad? No, it is just that one must use careful and restricted use of things that can be more easily messed up. Incremental testing is still the key. Without it, even Ada is a bad programming language. IMHO Dwight From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 19 13:17:52 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: <394DF9EF.29734.283CC2B5@localhost> Message-ID: <200006191817.LAA10403@civic.hal.com> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > Re: my response to Sellam. > > Oops...that was supposed to be private. Sorry. > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler Hi Stan I'll keep it private. Dwight From g at kurico.com Mon Jun 19 13:42:18 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: <000d01bfd9ef$2a5b4960$dd8136cb@default> Message-ID: <394E233A.12887.965DE09@localhost> IIRC this fact is also mentioned in the "Mac Bathroom Reader". Another great book for Apple/Mac fans. George > On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Phil Guerney wrote: > > > Sellam said in his VCF site review of this book: > > > > "You first realize this is not just another book about Apple when it > > begins with an Apple factoid that even I (a lifelong Apple fanatic) > > didn't even know about. It reveals that Apple actually had one other > > founder besides the two Steves, a man by the name of Ronald Wayne > > who got cold feet and bailed out shortly after Apple's official > > founding (he's the guy who designed the logo of Newton sitting under > > the Apple tree on the Apple-1 manual)." > > > > Poor Ron Wayne, who sold out his 10% of the company for $500, is > > missing from all the Apple company stories that I have read, but his > > involvement is described well in Fire in the Valley by Freiberger > > and Swaine on pages 265-267 of the updated version that came out > > this year. > > There's no mention of him in the original edition. For his part, > according to the book, he claims he doesn't regret the decision :) > > (considering the circumstances it quite plausible) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Jun 19 13:50:28 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:00:51AM -0700 References: <14666.46171.354857.431916@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394AC617.331FF551@mainecoon.com> <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000619145028.A1358@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:00:51AM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: >I suppose some >Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of >a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese >manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but >I did say *car*... :-) I suppose the Fiat 500/Seat 600 doesn't qualify as a real car either... But the VW bug and bus both went a long time between major changes (the bus had a major body change in 1968 but most other things were small incremental tweaks), from their start right after WW2 until their mutual death in 1979. Around the time VW hit upon the notion of "our cars are luxury cars because we *say* they're luxury cars" and walked away from their market share (in the US at least). I love the fact that what's putting them back on the map is a soulless cartoon lookalike of their old junkers. Also, this may not have covered so many years, but the Chrysler Omni/Horizon econoboxes (known in junkyards as "Horomnis") had practically the same body throughout their entire 1978-1990 history. They changed the door handle mounts in 1979 and of course the car subscribed to the drivetrain-of-the-month club like most American cars, but generally you can mix and match doors, fenders, glass, bumpers, the hood and hatch, and a lot of the suspension and interior, from absolutely any year. For the last 5 years or so of production, Chrysler essentially froze the design, and also cut the price in half (and made some of the options standard to avoid having to futz with them) so that it rode out the rest of its product life with basically no engineering work. Even the Ford Fiesta got more parental attention! It's kind of funny that it was so static. You can tell a '69 and '70 Camaro apart from 100 yards away even if they're half-buried in snow, but with '78 and '90 Horizons, really the most obvious difference is just the amount of rust. John Wilson D Bit From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 19 13:46:12 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE33@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000501bfda1e$a4c8cb80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> FWIW: I remember it this way Buran = Blizzard. Buran was nearly identical to our shuttle. sorta a cheaper looking knock-off. Buran never flew. A smaller (probably unmanned) capsule was flown, and photographs released. This was a one man sized lifting body similiar to our ```Steve Austin''' type deals from the 60's. Snowflake = small Blizzard? I don't know. John A. P.S. found some fascinating links here: http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/mwade/craft/buran.htm http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/mwade/flights/buran5.htm From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 12:57:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: More Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I want one too!. I notice it didn't mention what CPU it used -- any > ideas? Initially I guessed at the Z80, but I am now wondering if it's an > 1802 or something odd... No menion in the ad. Maybe Allison knows. The kit was sold by Netronics, the same people who sold the ELF II and Exlporer 85 kits. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 19 13:06:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc. In-Reply-To: <394E233A.12887.965DE09@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, George Currie wrote: > IIRC this fact is also mentioned in the "Mac Bathroom Reader". > Another great book for Apple/Mac fans. The _Mac Bathroom Reader_ was also written by Owen Linzmayer, the author of _Apple Confidential_. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 19 14:12:25 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:44 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) In-Reply-To: <000501bfda1e$a4c8cb80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at Jun 19, 2000 02:46:12 PM Message-ID: <200006191912.NAA01264@calico.litterbox.com> > FWIW: > I remember it this way > Buran = Blizzard. Yup. > Buran was nearly identical to our shuttle. > sorta a cheaper looking knock-off. They even admit to having bought a set of the shuttle plans when Nasa was selling them. > Buran never flew. > A smaller (probably unmanned) capsule was > flown, and photographs released. Bzzt. Buran flew once in an automated test flight. Unfortunately the Soviet economy collapsed before they could really make use of their shuttle. In some ways it's a better design than the US shuttle - especially its liquid fueled Energea booster instead of the more dangerous solid fueled boosters used on the US shuttle. Advantage? You can turn it OFF. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 13:13:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE2E@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 19, 0 10:04:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3160 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/83624947/attachment-0001.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 19 14:36:09 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper) In-Reply-To: <20000619174217.25189.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <394E9249.4135.342ADB52@localhost> > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > > Soviet space shuttle) > I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never > heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew > once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the > Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. Buran can be translated as Snowflake - as always words tend to have different areas of usage/meaning in different languages - as the English have created tons of words for rain, the russians have some more versions of snow than other nations :) AFAIR there have been 3 orbiters build, but only one has ever been launched for an unmanned flight in the autum of '88. There have been several projects to use Buran during the '90s, but due money constrains none became realized. This flight is also often mixed up with the BOR flighs during development. The BOR units have been scaled models to test stuff like the ceramic tiles. Buran has been a bit shorter than the Shuttle, but the payload area was bigger and the maximum payload was 20% more mass than for the US shuttle. Also all pay load bay dimensions have been a bit bigger ... including an already build adapter to host pay load modules build acording to the US specifications. This was ment to gather some transport missions in a competitive situation (What would have been a great thing to boost space transportation, as competition among classic rocets proof). After all, Buran was in some aspects a more advanced version of the shuttle. The russians did study everything thy could about the US space plane. Lets just agree that the Buran is as independant as the Japaneese Kikka has been in '45 :) (And I don't want to put any doubt on japaneese development skills). In fact, I've read that one of the three orbiters is at the moment leased to NASA for some aerodynamic tests (the 'original' is displayed in a Moskwa Theme Park). And last but not least, Buran was AFAIK thename of the this particular unit. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 14:00:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006191457.HAA95058@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 19, 0 07:57:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4144 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/15953ac2/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 14:03:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <394E51C3.A7D47102@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Jun 19, 0 10:00:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 543 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/0c7aa4b0/attachment-0001.ksh From jdarren at ala.net Mon Jun 19 15:51:57 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: vintage computer books for sale Message-ID: <00d101bfda30$35e5c800$026464c0@j.peters> $10 each plus book rate shipping. DEC LA36/LA35 DECwriter II Maintenance Manual, 1977 DEC LA36/LA35 DECwriter II User's Manual, 1977 DEC PDP-11 BA11-K 10.5 Inch Mounting Box Technical Manual, 1978 DEC PDP-11 DL-11 Asynchronous Line Interface Manual, 1975 (reproduction) DEC PDP-11 DL11-W Serial Line Unit/Real-Time Clock Option Maintenance Manual, 1977 DEC PDP-11 DR11-C General Device Interface Manual, 1974 DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 (reproduction) DEC RK05/RK05J Disk Drive Preventive Maintenance Manual, 1976 DEC RK05/RK05J/RK05F Disk Driving Maintenance Manual, 1976 DEC RK05J Illustrated Parts Breakdown, 1977 (reproduction) DEC RK11-D and RK11-E Moving Head Disk Drive Controller Manual, 1975 (reproduction) PDP-11/45 16-Bit Computer Illustrated Parts Breakdown, 1974 (reproduction) Honeywell Series 200 214-1/214-2 Card Reader/Punch Theory of Operation Manual, 1968 Teletype Model 35 ASR Technical Manual, 1971 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 19 15:54:32 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: vintage computer books for sale In-Reply-To: <00d101bfda30$35e5c800$026464c0@j.peters> Message-ID: > DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 > (reproduction) RCS/RI might be interested in this manual - can you hold it while I ask the other board members? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ryan at inc.net Mon Jun 19 16:20:15 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Source for 88k systems? Message-ID: <394E8E8F.DA73E8DE@inc.net> I'm looking for a 88k based system, preferably a Moto MVME. Anyone have one they'd like to sell to an 88k nut? Thanks, Ryan Brooks ryan@inc.net From jdarren at ala.net Mon Jun 19 16:26:10 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: vintage computer books for sale Message-ID: <024a01bfda34$feb20f60$026464c0@j.peters> Certainly! It is now reserved in your name. Thanks for your interest. jdarren -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 4:16 PM Subject: Re: vintage computer books for sale >> DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 >> (reproduction) > >RCS/RI might be interested in this manual - can you hold it while I ask >the other board members? > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 19 16:27:19 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Boards Need Identification / Available for Trades Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE36@TEGNTSERVER> About twelve years ago, I was digging through a dumpster in the office park where I worked at the time, and found a quantity of what I only just recently identified to be PDP-11 UniBus boards. Now that I know I have no need for them, I think they'll be going. While I'd prefer to trade them, in case I have to sell them on E-Bay, I'd like to know what it is I'm selling. Each card has what appears to be a model number, and I list those numbers below. Two things I'd take in trade: A Prime coffee mug, or almost anything of a Pr1mary nature; A keyboard encoding ROM for a SOL-20 keyboard. Maybe you'll have something really nifty I'd like, so if you want to trade but don't have the above items, drop me a line, make me an offer! Here are the board numbers: M5904 quantity three G7273 quantity three M7296 quantity one M7297 quantity one M7556 quantity one M9047 quqntity one M9300 quantity one M9202 quantity one thanks in advance, doug quebbeman From mrdos at swbell.net Mon Jun 19 16:44:34 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Fw: HP-85 Computer Message-ID: <001301bfda37$902d2f40$c5743ed8@compaq> Can anyone help this guy out? -----Original Message----- From: David M. Curtis To: Owen Robertson Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Re: HP-85 Computer Hello Owen: Thanks for replying to my e-mail. I have an HP85, but no manuals. I am looking for the command for the computer to format a tape. I knew it 15 years ago. The tape drives in the 85s are notorious for going bad. The rubber tire on the tape drive had rotted away and this makes the tape run too slowly. I was going to format a new tape to see if that would help me to get it running. Thanks, David Curtis KC8TK ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: David M. Curtis Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 1:17 AM Subject: Re: HP-85 Computer It didn't come with the manual for the computer itself, but it came with the manuals for the following ROMS: Matrix Printer/Plotter Input/Output Mass Storage Advanced Programming I would be glad to photo copy any information that you need as soon as I get the computer. What information do you need? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/0411c818/attachment-0001.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 19 17:57:17 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: References: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000619175717.45975ef0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:06 PM 6/12/00 -0400, Pat wrote: > >Another snag you might run into is the problem with funding agencies. >When I was at Carnegie-Mellon, I worked on a DoD-sponsored research >project. We never surplussed *anything*, and we never threw anything >away (at least, in the 2.5 years that I was there). The reason was, that >our funding agency (who had paid for all of our hardware) required that, >if we wanted to surplus something, we had to first go through a process to >put it on a list to offer it to other government agencies. Only after the >equipment had been on this list for several months, with no interest from >any other agencies, could we dispose of it. We were told at the time that >the estimated time from deciding to surplus something, until we were >actually permitted to do so (assuming that it was not snapped up by >another agency in the meantime), was at least 12 months. > I'd say that if they can surplus an item in only 12 months then they're doing extremely well. I see lots of surplus computers and test equipment and ALL of it has been in storage for at least 5 five years. Some of them have been in storage for over 10 years. For example, I just picked up two HP 9825s. Both of them have tags stating that they were removed from operation in 1995 and that they must be recalibrated or tested before being returned to service. Joe From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Jun 19 17:35:39 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: > I've met programmers who 'design' like that as well -- they > type in some code, then fiddle with loop limits, ands versus ors, > etc until the program gives the 'right answers' on the test values. Is it > any wonder some programs contain bugs.. When I first started in programming (1977), we had to create *complete* technical design documents before a single line of code was written. This included technical specs, data diagrams, flowcharts, screen shots, etc... About 6 weeks ago, I was evaluating a fairly complex software project and and asked the engineer to provide a flowchart of how the application worked. He stated that he didn't see the value of a flowchart and that it would slow down the development process. In his opinion, it was much easier to just read the code. I was tempted to kick his ass, but decided the best way to handle this was to prove the value of proper documentation. So, I waded through his code, found the most complex module, and created a comprehensive flowchart of just that module. Now the fun part... I got the engineer, his supervisor, our VP of technology, and another non-technical co-worker (whom had never seen the project) together for a quick quiz. I gave the flowchart to the non-technical person and started asking the group fundimental questions like; "how many parameters are passed to and from the module", "what happens if an out-of-bounds value is passed", "what is the exact sequence of events when..." blah, blah, blah. Almost instantly, the non-technical person was able to answer the questions while the two engineers waded through hundreds of lines of code. Within 30 minutes, I was able to totally embarrass the engineer *and* his supervisor in front of the VP. Shoulda kicked his ass anyway... ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/79b40d90/attachment-0001.html From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 19 17:42:21 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: New stuff! Wahoo! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000619184221.009c8650@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Rollins may have mentioned these words: >Added about a dozen boxes of Macintosh software and some minor >hardware items to the collection, as well as a TRS-80 Model 100 with >some books and a few ROM modules. Seems to be working just fine, but >the bottom is covered in duct tape to keep some covers from falling >off. Even got a modem cable! [snip] >Anyone know of any good sites for TRS-80 stuff? Sure do! Hop over to http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html and say howdy to prolly the foremost person on the Model 100/102/200 scene, Rick Hanson. He's one heckuva nice guy, and keeps a lot of TRS-80 stuff in stock, not to mention most (if not all) of the proggies from his old BBS site on the web, available for download. (I'm not sure, but I *think* his BBS is still running, so you can actually still dial to it with your M100, if you like! ;-) He sells personally refurbished Model 100's & 102's, for a very good price & warrants them for 90 days. Check out http://www.the-dock.com/c100/recon.html if you want to see pictures of his refurbishing process - very helpful if you've ever had to split a Model 100. He also has a lot of help dox available as well... IIRC it's called "The Whole Enchalada" (sp?)... More info than you can shake a stick at... Tell him "Merch" sent you... Also, there's a mailing list devoted to the Model 100/102/200 machines (I have a 200 myself...) and to sign up, send an empty email here: m100-subscribe@list.30below.com and reply to the confirmation message. I run the list, so if you have any questions, please feel free to email me personally... Oh, BTW - There's over 160 subscribers to this list, so that shows that the Model 100 is still alive and kicking over 15 years later... :-) :-) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 19 18:10:10 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards Message-ID: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> I pulled a bunch of VAX boards out of an, I think, 8200 that was destined for the scap heap. How do ID these things? They are VAXBI and VAXBI-A, or whatever the CPU bus is. I've got a BUNCH (Around 15) I've ID'd one as a TK-50 Controller (It says it is) and an ethernet controller (DEBNT) Any help would be appreciated. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 19 18:26:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE31@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >On June 17, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: >> > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the >spot >> > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking >the >> > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code >> > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. >> > >> > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the >> > paper, and then to the system. >> >> Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) > >Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists >(Tom VanVleck, who might respond to being so identified as "Me? >I'm just a programmer!"): > >: It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen >: it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient >: is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code >: perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. The caveat is that all of the "perfect" coders I know, wrote in assembly language, which has very little ambiguity. I owe much of my coding skill to a single mid level class on plotting. Two stinking credits, and one of the hardest most time consuming classes I have ever taken, with a drop out rate close to 75%. The title was plotting, but it was all about writing optimized code in assembly language to be called by a fortran program running on a IBM 360 with output on some little flatbed plotter. Each of the half dozen projects reused code from the previous, and by the end we all had shoebox sized stacks of punched cards, and a VERY keen eye on what made good code. It was really many years later into my professional career that I learned to "spill some blood" and let the compiler find a few errors instead of spending so much time actually writing the initial code. From jdarren at ala.net Mon Jun 19 18:54:52 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <004a01bfda49$c36f9200$01186bce@darren> Sounds like you have a problem with anal retention. When I first started in programming (1977), we had to create *complete* technical design documents before a single line of code was written. This included technical specs, data diagrams, flowcharts, screen shots, etc... About 6 weeks ago, I was evaluating a fairly complex software project and and asked the engineer to provide a flowchart of how the application worked. He stated that he didn't see the value of a flowchart and that it would slow down the development process. In his opinion, it was much easier to just read the code. I was tempted to kick his ass, but decided the best way to handle this was to prove the value of proper documentation. So, I waded through his code, found the most complex module, and created a comprehensive flowchart of just that module. Now the fun part... I got the engineer, his supervisor, our VP of technology, and another non-technical co-worker (whom had never seen the project) together for a quick quiz. I gave the flowchart to the non-technical person and started asking the group fundimental questions like; "how many parameters are passed to and from the module", "what happens if an out-of-bounds value is passed", "what is the exact sequence of events when..." blah, blah, blah. Almost instantly, the non-technical person was able to answer the questions while the two engineers waded through hundreds of lines of code. Within 30 minutes, I was able to totally embarrass the engineer *and* his supervisor in front of the VP. Shoulda kicked his ass anyway... ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000619/02e3981a/attachment-0001.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 19 18:47:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: from "Steve Robertson" at Jun 19, 0 06:35:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5245 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/c8ac792f/attachment-0001.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jun 19 19:10:59 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper References: Message-ID: <394EB693.FC57A92@mainecoon.com> Mike Ford wrote: > It was really many years later into my professional career that I learned > to "spill some blood" and let the compiler find a few errors instead of > spending so much time actually writing the initial code. It's certainly the case that as a consequence of all the time I spent writing code in assembly lanaguage (and all those damn code generation and optimization courses!) that I always find myself thinking in terms of what kind of code I expect the compiler to generate as a consequence of the way I structure my code. On the other hand, there are some things that the compiler is simply better at than I am; a good example of this is instruction scheduling, particularly on superscalar machines. I'd rather the compiler figure out how to keep the pipes full and avoid slips rather than spend my time doing so (and probably screwing it up). On a related topic, I too miss greenbar. Lots of room to scribble out new code and my scrawled representations of the data structures, all bound together in one place. I still do this on the stuff that spews out of laser printers, but there's not nearly enough real estate and I always end up with extra bits of paper that I am almost certain to lose at some point or another. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 19 18:46:26 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Source for 88k systems? In-Reply-To: <394E8E8F.DA73E8DE@inc.net> Message-ID: >I'm looking for a 88k based system, preferably a Moto MVME. Anyone >have one they'd like to sell to an 88k nut? Can you describe what you want in a bit more detail? Many of us find a LOT of stuff, but don't always know what we found. From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon Jun 19 19:38:12 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper References: Message-ID: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> Now that brings back some memories! 1969-72 at Franklin Pierce College writing assembly and Fortran IV stuff for a 360/60 that we timeshared with a bunch of other schools. I/O was a Teletype machine with a cardpunch and reader hooked up to it. The good old days??? I don't think so! You've never know true Hell until you drop a huge deck of cards you've worked on for a week. Craig > > > >: It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen > >: it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient > >: is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code > >: perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. > > The caveat is that all of the "perfect" coders I know, wrote in assembly > language, which has very little ambiguity. I owe much of my coding skill to > a single mid level class on plotting. Two stinking credits, and one of the > hardest most time consuming classes I have ever taken, with a drop out rate > close to 75%. The title was plotting, but it was all about writing > optimized code in assembly language to be called by a fortran program > running on a IBM 360 with output on some little flatbed plotter. Each of > the half dozen projects reused code from the previous, and by the end we > all had shoebox sized stacks of punched cards, and a VERY keen eye on what > made good code. > > It was really many years later into my professional career that I learned > to "spill some blood" and let the compiler find a few errors instead of > spending so much time actually writing the initial code. From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon Jun 19 19:43:41 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <394EBE3D.5E7D0AC0@roanoke.infi.net> Try the DEC/VAX field guide to cards at: http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/field-gu.txt or the visual field guide at: http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/index.html Craig Jason McBrien wrote: > > I pulled a bunch of VAX boards out of an, I think, 8200 that was destined > for the scap heap. How do ID these things? They are VAXBI and VAXBI-A, or > whatever the CPU bus is. I've got a BUNCH (Around 15) I've ID'd one as a > TK-50 Controller (It says it is) and an ethernet controller (DEBNT) Any help > would be appreciated. From allain at panix.com Mon Jun 19 19:50:21 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? References: <000a01bfda01$292e35e0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <000901bfda51$856295e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Can somene kindly tell me how to lock/unlock the heads on a CDC model > PA5N1F15 9" hard drive? Well, mine's a PA5G1M-20 (8.5x10x30", 9" platters) and it has its own auto-solenoid, which is easy to see. Just look on the platter case for a silverish round thing about 1.5". You should see it has a two wire connector and can be unscrewed from the mounting plate w/ a twist. > BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this > the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? I belieeeeve that FSD's are just small SMD's. They seemed to have the same cabling as I recall. I couldn't find info on the PA5G1M anywhere so I found another number on the unit, "97150-340 FSD-340" and that seeked to a Seagate (guess they bought out CDC SMD's), here: http://www.mm.mtu.edu/drives/seagate/smd/st6344j.txt Here it says this FSD is a SMD. Perhaps your drive is there... first get the other model number. And we wonder why we subscribe to this list. John A From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 20:09:09 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <006f01bfda54$2449fd40$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 8:40 AM Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards > I pulled a bunch of VAX boards out of an, I think, 8200 that was destined > for the scap heap. How do ID these things? They are VAXBI and VAXBI-A, or > whatever the CPU bus is. I've got a BUNCH (Around 15) I've ID'd one as a > TK-50 Controller (It says it is) and an ethernet controller (DEBNT) Any help > would be appreciated. Post a list of the card id codes. I have a list of most of the BI adapters here SOMEWHERE. (By the time you post 'em, I should have found it ;^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 20:12:03 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <20000619230518.82234.qmail@hotmail.com> <394EBE3D.5E7D0AC0@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <008301bfda54$8b93f1e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:13 AM Subject: Re: ID'ing VAX Boards > Try the DEC/VAX field guide to cards at: > http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/field-gu.txt > or the visual field guide at: > http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/index.html I've seen that one, ISTR it only has Unibus and QBus stuff listed? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 19 20:23:20 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards In-Reply-To: <006f01bfda54$2449fd40$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Jun 20, 2000 10:39:09 AM Message-ID: <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> > Post a list of the card id codes. I have a list of most of the BI > adapters here SOMEWHERE. > (By the time you post 'em, I should have found it ;^) > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts Any chance of your posting the list? I'd like to get them added to the Non-Unibus/Q-Bus DEC board list. Zane From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Jun 19 20:45:50 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <000901bfda51$856295e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Jun 19, 2000 08:50:21 pm" Message-ID: <200006200145.VAA00485@bg-tc-ppp251.monmouth.com> > > BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this > > the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? It's SMD... > > I belieeeeve that FSD's are just small SMD's. They seemed > to have the same cabling as I recall. Yup... > I couldn't find info on the PA5G1M anywhere so I found another > number on the unit, "97150-340 FSD-340" and that seeked > to a Seagate (guess they bought out CDC SMD's), here: > http://www.mm.mtu.edu/drives/seagate/smd/st6344j.txt > Here it says this FSD is a SMD. Perhaps your drive is there... > first get the other model number. Seagate purchased the CDC disk drive unit (Magnetic Peripherals Inc,) back around 5-8 years ago I think... (the are same folks who did -- I think -- all the MPI floppies as well as the 9766, Wren etc. I'm installing two Wren 9gb SCSI's right now.) > > And we wonder why we subscribe to this list. Nostalgia. > > John A > > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cube1 at home.com Mon Jun 19 21:22:17 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, with or without a reply based on how busy I am and how I feel that day. 8-) Requests for further information may not be responded to quickly. I have obtained, due to Y2k related activities and general cleanup, a VERY LIMITED number of copies of original software distribution tapes for the Apollo Domain/OS operating system and some product support kits. (I also have some other software, but due to licensing, I am not comfortable making that available. However, if you have NFS, Omniback, CC or DPCE software for Apollo Domain/OS and are having problems reading your tape(s), if you scan in a copy of your label and send it to me, we can see if we can arrange something). I am making them available at no cost, except that the REQUESTER PAYS THE PACKAGING AND SHIPPING COSTS (usually just a pound or two). The prepayment will be based on the estimate from the UPS web site. If you send me too much, I will send the difference by other means after I ship, if it is more than $2.00 -- otherwise I will not bother). I am making them available to people who (priority order) (USE THIS CODE BELOW) PRIORITY CODE: 1. Has an HP/Apollo Domain machine (proof required, including node-id, preference would be a picture), but does not have tapes (you are on the honor system for that part) 2. Is writing a simulator and needs software (some proof required, such as design documentation, compiler headers, ...) (Having been in that boat myself, I have empathy for anyone in that situation. But, I'd be surprised to find anyone in this situation for an Apollo Domain/OS machine). 3. An education institution (this would really surprise me, but you never know) 4. Has an HP/Apollo Domain machine (proof required -- see above), has tapes, but would like a backup set.2 Shipping code (see below) PICKUP: If you can pick the tapes up. Gets you 1 notch higher priority. SHIP: If you need to have them shipped to you. (You pre-pay shipping). Available only to folks in the US and places UPS will ship to with no headache for me (again, these are free, after all). Again, the requester must PREPAY SHIPPING based on an estimate from the UPS web site. The tapes are little used, and in their original plastic boxes with their original labels. The tapes date from around 1990 - 1992. ( I read thru a set of tapes like these to do a software install last year without a problem, but I can make NO GUARANTEE that the tapes are readable. (after all, they are free). Requests for tapes should be sent via email. PLEASE READ *ALL* of the following information to the end of this message CAREFULLY. Request MUST include the following filled out (please cut and paste into your message) Request MUST include "DOMAIN/OS TAPE REQUEST" in the subject of the e-mail, and should be addressed to: c u b e 1 (at) h o m e (dot) c o m ************************ NAME: Your Name ADDRESS: Your Street Address / City / State / Zip / Country routing code EMAIL: Your e-mail address SET: The Tape set number(s) you would like. (See Below) Format: # PRIORITY: Your priority code (see above) (#1, #2, #3 or #4) SHIPPING: (See above: PICKUP or SHIP) NODE-ID: Your Apollo Domain Node ID (see above) (Attach GIF/JPEG if possible) ************************* Requests should be submitted before 7/5/2000. I need to allow some time for priorities to be properly registered. I will ship when I am good and ready, probably in July or August. (After all, these are free -- but I do want to get them out of my hair). Generally YOU MAY ONLY REQUEST 1 SET. Exception: If you request one of set 10, 11 or 12 you may also pick one of set 13,14 and/or one of set 15,16 Note: If you have a 68040 based machine, SR10.2 is useless. You need SR10.3, including PSK8 (see below) SET INFORMATION *** READ CAREFULLY *** (Specify above) SETS #1, #2 and #3 Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.2 Boot tape: 017286-001 3 software tapes: 017277-001, -002 and -003 (This is a complete operating system) SET #4 As with sets #1, #2 and #3 PLUS DOMAIN/OS SR10.2 INCRA_2 018777-001 (patch tape) (THIS IS JUST A SINGLE TAPE - NOT A COMPLETE OPERATING SYSTEM) SETS #5, #6, #7, #8, #9 Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.4 Boot Tape: 019593-001 Software tapes: 019594-001, -002, -003, -004 (This is a complete operating system) SETS #10, #11, #12 Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.3 Boot Tape: 018847-001 Software tapes: 018848-001, -002, -003, -004 (This is a complete operating system) SETS #13, #14 Product Support Kit Q3-91 for Apollo DOMAIN/OS SR10.3 THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE OPERATING SYSTEM. YOU WOULD ALSO NEED SET #10, #11 or #12 Boot Tape: 019439-001 Software tapes: 019437-001, -002 SETS #15, #16 Product Support Kit PSK8 THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE OPERATING SYSTEM. YOU WOULD ALSO NEED SET #10, #11 or #12 Boot Tape: 019376-001 PSK8 Software: 019374-001 PSK8 68040 Software: 019362-001 Again, PLEASE read thru ALL of this message BEFORE submitting your request. Hope some of you find this useful. Jay Jaeger The Computer Collection. Visit: http://members.home.com/thecomputercollection From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jun 19 22:12:41 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: ID'ing VAX Boards References: <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Re: ID'ing VAX Boards > > Post a list of the card id codes. I have a list of most of the BI > > adapters here SOMEWHERE. > > (By the time you post 'em, I should have found it ;^) > Any chance of your posting the list? I'd like to get them added to the > Non-Unibus/Q-Bus DEC board list. As soon as I find it, I will do that. It's on the server somewhere..:^) Cheers Geoff From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 19 23:50:48 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Another thing that annoys me (sort-of related to the above) is the > common, and IMHO silly job interview question 'Do you know C?' (or some > other programming language). > > If I wanted a programmer, I'd much rather have somebody who didn't know > the particular language I was going to use, but who did understand things > like data structures, recursion, stacks, pointers, analysis of > algorithms, stability of algorithms, etc. Because I know that sort of > person could learn just about any language in under a week given the > standards documents. Whereas the person who'd been on a C course (and > thus 'knows C') may well be able to write trivial programs in that > language, but will probably not be able to write large programs well (if > at all). > > Still, what do I know? I'm not, and never have been, a programmer. > > -tony I'd suggest that a person who understands CS basics, as you outline, is better than one who hacks away "until something works". But there are some programming languages (C++ leaps to mind) that do take quite a while to master the nuances. ---- >From what I see in the programming field, more and more programmers are needed that use high level languages (VB, Perl, Python, JavaScript, Java, etc.) than traditional languages like C and Fortran. We do not need efficiencies that C or Fortran give us, in most cases. -Mike From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 19 23:52:20 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall a rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, something about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not include cursor keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate solely with the mouse. Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) Thanks for any help, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From g at kurico.com Tue Jun 20 00:18:40 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> References: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <394EB860.24274.BAC7941@localhost> The pre-adb keyboarded Macs did not include cursor keys (128 -> Plus). > Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall > a rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, > something about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not > include cursor keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate > solely with the mouse. > > Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer > Talk" and I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) > > Thanks for any help, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 00:29:29 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <01c401bfda78$82b390c0$c6701fd1@default> Well the week back from vacation has been pretty good I hit 3 auction and came away with a few good deals. 1. HP 6300 series 650/A 2. HP 9000/300 3. HP 9144 4. HP 6000/670H - 4 of them mounted in a nice rack. 5. TI99 color monitor the size of a TV and looks just like an old 19" model. 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? 7. 2 - Toshiba T5200/100's that both work great. 8. Zenith SuperSport 286 with carrying case, will not boot up. 9. Grid GridCase3 not working 10. An old Informer in a nice case. Not tested yet. 11. Compaq portable III in carrying case, not tested yet. 12. digital LA50-RA printer. 13. digital VT240 model VS240-B 14. Tandy 4000 PC There were several van loads of items that are not yet 10 years old but I added them to my collection from the first two auctions. At a City/school auction today I won the bid on over 80 computers, ext floppy drives (Apple all types), ext. hard drives for Mac's, many keyboards, monitors, and many other computer items all for $1. Sorry to say I had to leave a large amount of this stuff, there were all types of early Mac's and PC's. My poor van was overloaded with computers this evening and I got home at 9:30pm in the dark so I was not able to unload too much tonight and will have take off work for half a day to unload my Van and go back for more of the items. I hope to have a more complete list by the weekend and will post the older items. John Keys From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 01:07:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper Message-ID: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Craig Smith wrote: > Now that brings back some memories! 1969-72 at Franklin Pierce College > writing assembly and Fortran IV stuff for a 360/60 that we timeshared > with a bunch of other schools. I/O was a Teletype machine with a > cardpunch and reader hooked up to it. The good old days??? I don't think > so! You've never know true Hell until you drop a huge deck of cards > you've worked on for a week. Craig Didn't you learn the trick of drawing a diagonal line across the deck from front to back and left to right? It's not perfect, but you get most of the cards very close to their original positions the first time. You _were_ using a printing punch, right? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 02:22:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> (message from Craig Smith on Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:38:12 -0400) References: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <20000620072230.32280.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Now that brings back some memories! 1969-72 at Franklin Pierce College > writing assembly and Fortran IV stuff for a 360/60 that we timeshared 360/65, perhaps? The 360/60 and 360/62 never shipped. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 02:24:15 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <200006200145.VAA00485@bg-tc-ppp251.monmouth.com> (message from Bill Pechter on Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:45:50 -0400 (EDT)) References: <200006200145.VAA00485@bg-tc-ppp251.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000620072415.32304.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Seagate purchased the CDC disk drive unit (Magnetic Peripherals Inc,) CDC spun off their drive division as Imprimis, and Seagate bought it. If MPI was involved, it must have been well before Segate got involved. From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Jun 20 02:24:28 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > --- Craig Smith wrote: > > cardpunch and reader hooked up to it. The good old days??? I don't think > > so! You've never know true Hell until you drop a huge deck of cards > > you've worked on for a week. Craig > > Didn't you learn the trick of drawing a diagonal line across the deck from > front to back and left to right? It's not perfect, but you get most of the > cards very close to their original positions the first time. You _were_ > using a printing punch, right? > > -ethan Well, the RIGHT way to do this was to punch Sequence Numbers in the last 8 columns. You usually incremented by 10 or sometimes 100, or even 1000, so you could insert new code. You'd keypunch your program, and then stuff your program into the punch, and run a small program that would punch sequence numbers into the last 8 columns. After a while of doing program changes, you'd read your deck in with a program that punched out a re-sequenced deck. Then to the "interpreter" keypunch machine that printed on the new cards. If you dropped the numbered deck, you just picked up your cards and headed for the sorting machine (and don't forget to start at column 80 and work on each pass, column at a time, down to column 73...). -Mike p.s. Sometimes you'd use different colored cards for program corrections; after a while, you'd have a visible pattern of program fixes over time. You could, at a glance, see where you were changing code the most. I wish modern editors allowed this sort of "view" onto code. CVS isn't enough, it works at too large granularity. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Jun 20 06:00:32 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <394EB860.24274.BAC7941@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:18:40 -0500 George Currie wrote: > The pre-adb keyboarded Macs did not include cursor keys (128 -> > Plus). The Mac Plus on my desk right now has cursor keys. I've heard that the 128k Mac (the very first model) had neither cursor keys nor the numeric keypad. I have an Apple /// at home which has special keys for cursor movement. They auto-repeat quite slowly when held down, but if you press a bit harder, the auto-repeat speeds up. Rather a nice idea, I thought. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 05:50:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: >Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before >responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, Could someone translate this into English? Do I need it or want this? I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 05:15:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: new list for Apple II In-Reply-To: <394EBCF4.C75E7801@roanoke.infi.net> References: Message-ID: The low end mac site just started a new list for Apple II users (all flavors). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Apple2list info at To get single messages, send email to To get digests, send email to To be removed from the list, send email to - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 20 06:57:52 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000620075752.0121d5b0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Hi Mike; You probably don't need it. These tapes would be useful for the machines made by Apollo before it was bought by HP, at least for the non-68040 based. These had model names such as DN3000, DN3500 and DN4000, and ran Apollo's version of Unix, called Domain OS. Pretty decent. The machines you have were made by HP after it acquired Apollo; the first ones to bear the HP/Apollo name were the 68030/40 series 400 machines, which ran HPUX. For the 400t you might want to look into netBSD, as the last version of HPUX that runs in 68K-based machines is 9.1 (I think) and is not y2k compliant. The series 700 machines have PA RISC cpus and should run HPUX 10.20 . carlos. At 03:50 AM 6/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before >>responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, > >Could someone translate this into English? > >Do I need it or want this? > >I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free >update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 20 07:54:08 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <20000620072415.32304.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jun 20, 2000 07:24:15 am" Message-ID: <200006201254.IAA00535@bg-tc-ppp337.monmouth.com> > > Seagate purchased the CDC disk drive unit (Magnetic Peripherals Inc,) > > CDC spun off their drive division as Imprimis, and Seagate bought it. > If MPI was involved, it must have been well before Segate got involved. > > Actually Imprimis was MPI and the disk group from CDC as you say. The tape group and laser disk folks were Laser Magnetics and they were around through the early CD days... I think they ended up or were a joint venture of CDC with Phillips. Anyone know? I beliebe MPI(CDC)->IMPRIMIS->SEAGATE is correct... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 20 09:15:57 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:07:17PM -0700 References: <20000620060717.29193.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620101557.A3170@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:07:17PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Didn't you learn the trick of drawing a diagonal line across the deck from >front to back and left to right? Cute! The same trick is used on harpsichord keyboards (pre-installation), in case it falls off the table and the key levers go everywhere. They aren't exactly mass-produced, it's only sure to have a smooth action if you leave the keys in the order they were fitted. John Wilson D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 09:51:45 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs Message-ID: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> I have a variety of Apple II machines (I used to make my living on them long, long ago) and my little brother, an avid thrifter, found a IIgs for me this week. ISTR there are multiple varieties; this one appears to be fairly old. It has a memory card inside with 256K of RAM soldered down, and spaces for another .75Mb. The ROM is version 1.0. Just playing around, I figured out how to get into the config menu and set background colors, 80 column, etc. I happened to have an external 5.25" Laser drive I got with my $15 IIc+ and was able to boot up the only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image if that's what it takes. Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector that the newer computers take? Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 20 09:58:22 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> References: <010701bfda65$664df3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <200006200123.SAA30001@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000620095631.018bdd20@pc> At 12:52 AM 6/20/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and >I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) I was thinking about offering myself to the local radio station to do a (perhaps monthly) call-in show like that. Care to post a short summary of your experience with it? I thought it might be fun, might drum up more consulting work, and might drag a few classic computers out of people's closets. - John From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Jun 20 10:32:27 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <001801bfdacc$bd9056c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 11:36 PM Subject: New Finds >Well the week back from vacation has been pretty good I hit 3 auction >and came away with a few good deals. >5. TI99 color monitor the size of a TV and looks just like an old 19" >model. John, do you mean a 9" monitor? AFAIK the only monitor produced by TI for the 99/4(A) was a neat little silver composite monitor, with a vertical dimension of 9" or 10". I believe they were bundled with the original 99/4 for the bargain price of $1,200 or thereabouts. They were later available separately, but still way too expensive. I'd be interested in more details (especially the TI part number, usually PHP ####) if it is a TI badged 19" for the 99/4(A). Regards, Mark From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 11:00:25 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000620095631.018bdd20@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 12:52 AM 6/20/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and > >I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) Just ask them qustions about real comptuers, like, tell them that you just got a PDP-11/44 that's not working, that you've tested the PSU, describe the switch settings on the boards and what lights are lit and what the console displays and what you've discovered using a logic probe, oscilloscope and VOM and then proceed to ask questions about using your logic analyzer to debug the problem further. You know what would really be fun? If a dozen or so of us all kept calling one of those PeeCeeLuzeDoze shows and kept asking them questions like this. Ok, first, we'd have to get past the call screening, but, we could tell the call screener that it's about some LuzeDoze system related problem, then get on the air and ask a question about a real computer system. That's it, we should launch a Usenet campaign to swamp the radio PeeCee shows with questions about VAXen, IBM mainframes, Tandems running Guardian and also ask about UNIX - stay away from asking Linux questions as that's becomming common and they may know about that - hit 'em with Version 7 related questions, along with AIX, System III, PNX, DGUX, etc. questions. Just think, calls from all over the world flooding one of these radio shows with interesting questions. A few more ideas: Call in a question about a hard disk problem, then hit 'em with a question about your RK05 or Funitsu Eagle while you've got the schematics in front of you. Let's not forget the simple questions too, like telling them there's a problem with the fan in your PeeCee, and then ask their opinion on a proper repair; I'm sure they'll tell you to replace the power supply. At that point, tell them that you don't want to replace the entire PSU and that you've removed the fan, and what you really want to know is what type of lubricant they recommend for it after you give them the model number. > I was thinking about offering myself to the local radio station > to do a (perhaps monthly) call-in show like that. Care to post > a short summary of your experience with it? I thought it might A few years ago, I had a telephone call from someone one up in Delaware (or was it Rhode Island? - it was one of those place up north) who wanted me to host a radio talk show about computers. The catch was that I'd have to put some money up front for this until sponsors began picking up the tab, and I wasn't sure how legitimate this was. Is that how it usually works? > be fun, might drum up more consulting work, and might drag a few > classic computers out of people's closets. Or, drive up the prices for our toys. :-( -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From red at bears.org Tue Jun 20 11:42:57 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:45 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall a > rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, something > about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not include cursor > keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate solely with the mouse. It is true. The keyboard which shipped with the Mac 128k did not have cursor keys, and I'm fairly certain that there wasn't an option for same until the Plus (when it may have become standard issue). ok r. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 20 11:55:36 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? Message-ID: <20000620165536.79131.qmail@hotmail.com> AFAIK, MPI was a joint venture between Honeywell and CDC, but I could be wrong... Also, FSD = Fixed Storage Disk, aka Winchester.. those drives are very nice units... as are the later Sabre's that are half the size of the FSDs.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Jun 20 12:10:25 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... Message-ID: <007c01bfdada$6d6dc7a0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: r. 'bear' stricklin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... > >It is true. The keyboard which shipped with the Mac 128k did not have >cursor keys, and I'm fairly certain that there wasn't an option for same >until the Plus (when it may have become standard issue). > >ok >r. > Was this another "Steveism", like the lack of a fan, and the sealed, appliance-style case? I admire Jobs' vision (even if I don't necessarily agree with it), but his reality distortion field has produced some notably un-user-friendly decisions. Mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 12:58:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620175810.5396.qmail@brouhaha.com> > and was able to boot up the > only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. Minor nitpick: Zork I doesn't use DOS of any version. It was originally shipped on a bootable 13-sector diskette, and later on 16-sector, which is what you have. The earliest Zork I release was buggy as all heck. Once I managed to have in my inventory about 20-30 "rooms". In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd certainly love to get a copy. The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 13:00:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620180046.5419.qmail@brouhaha.com> I forgot to answer the other question: > So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and > no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? > I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image > if that's what it takes. Apple never supported DOS on 3.5". There were some third-party hacks, but I've never obtained copies. From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 20 13:06:39 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <20000620165536.79131.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000901bfdae2$48cea6f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > Will J said: > those drives are very nice units... I have some of the 340 MB's available to interested parties, also an Eagle. . . (A deafening silence is heard) John A. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 20 13:12:37 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Radio shows? References: Message-ID: <20000620180746.9606.qmail@hotmail.com> "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I doing wrong? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Radio shows? > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > > At 12:52 AM 6/20/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and > > >I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) > > Just ask them qustions about real comptuers, like, tell them that you > just got a PDP-11/44 that's not working, that you've tested the PSU, > describe the switch settings on the boards and what lights are lit and > what the console displays and what you've discovered using a logic probe, > oscilloscope and VOM and then proceed to ask questions about using your > logic analyzer to debug the problem further. > > You know what would really be fun? If a dozen or so of us all kept > calling one of those PeeCeeLuzeDoze shows and kept asking them > questions like this. Ok, first, we'd have to get past the call > screening, but, we could tell the call screener that it's about some > LuzeDoze system related problem, then get on the air and ask a > question about a real computer system. That's it, we should launch a > Usenet campaign to swamp the radio PeeCee shows with questions about > VAXen, IBM mainframes, Tandems running Guardian and also ask about > UNIX - stay away from asking Linux questions as that's becomming > common and they may know about that - hit 'em with Version 7 related > questions, along with AIX, System III, PNX, DGUX, etc. questions. > Just think, calls from all over the world flooding one of these > radio shows with interesting questions. > > A few more ideas: Call in a question about a hard disk problem, then > hit 'em with a question about your RK05 or Funitsu Eagle while you've > got the schematics in front of you. Let's not forget the simple > questions too, like telling them there's a problem with the fan in > your PeeCee, and then ask their opinion on a proper repair; I'm sure > they'll tell you to replace the power supply. At that point, tell > them that you don't want to replace the entire PSU and that you've > removed the fan, and what you really want to know is what type of > lubricant they recommend for it after you give them the model number. > > > I was thinking about offering myself to the local radio station > > to do a (perhaps monthly) call-in show like that. Care to post > > a short summary of your experience with it? I thought it might > > A few years ago, I had a telephone call from someone one up in > Delaware (or was it Rhode Island? - it was one of those place up > north) who wanted me to host a radio talk show about computers. The > catch was that I'd have to put some money up front for this until > sponsors began picking up the tab, and I wasn't sure how legitimate > this was. Is that how it usually works? > > > be fun, might drum up more consulting work, and might drag a few > > classic computers out of people's closets. > > Or, drive up the prices for our toys. :-( > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Jun 20 13:29:48 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Composing on paper, Green-bar, hardcopy output, card decks (L ong) Message-ID: >From the Jargon file greenbar: n. A style of fanfolded continuous-feed paper with alternating green and white bars on it, especially used in old-style line printers. This slang almost certainly dates way back to mainframe days. This makes me feel ancient. The green bars were 1 inch wide which was 6 lines normal or 8 lines compressed. About 1979 I remember when I wrote a talk for a microbiology conference on my VT52 terminal. I then printed it out on greenbar which was used to prompt me during the talk. The greenbar proceeded to unfold down the front of the podium all the way to the floor. My boss was kind enough to indicate that the talk was really written by the computer. One problem with greenbar was that you had to turn it over if you wanted to print pictures or banners on the paper. Very long fiber paper, some of the cheap stuff was kind of like newspaper greenbar. I still have several cases of it, the fancy kind with printed line numbers. The nice thing about composing on paper was that once you wrote the same or similar thing several times by hand you decided to create a subroutine/procedure. Paper could be taken to the pool or outside, no electricity required. Composing on terminals was only practical when there were terminals available. Doesn't anyone remember coding sheets? If you are punching cards on an IBM 026 keypunch then any errors and the card was trash. The IBM 029 keypunch didn't actually punch the card until the end of the line, you could correct errors if you noticed them. Trash cards were useful for phone messages and notes. All of the JCL cards were usually a different color to allow the card decks to be split apart. I seem to remember pictures being drawn on the decks to allow the user to peer through the computer room window to see if your deck was due to be run soon. The best card run I ever saw was a 1976 run where the entire music list for the MU radio station was read in and then sorted by music type, performer, and title and then printouts produced. This happened on a Sunday when CPU time was free on the IBM 370 model 158 due to system testing. 12 boxes of data cards were read in and then stored on 9-track tape. Best input output/setup was in 1970 at CMU where the cards were read in and then output printed down a long series of sloped tables, each user got <10 minute response, they had a traffic light set up in the IO room. RED = system down, GREEN = system up, YELLOW = use at your own risk. They had a camera and speaker watching the printer to tell the users to change the paper on the printer. Worst setup was MU Computer Sciences where you turned in the cards and got back output in 24 hours. Many times with message CPU time exceeded and no output. Mike Coder from the dark ages From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jun 20 14:58:00 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs Message-ID: <200006201858.NAA36066@opal.tseinc.com> In a message dated Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:03:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ethan Dicks writes: << I have a variety of Apple II machines (I used to make my living on them long, long ago) and my little brother, an avid thrifter, found a IIgs for me this week. ISTR there are multiple varieties; this one appears to be fairly old. It has a memory card inside with 256K of RAM soldered down, and spaces for another .75Mb. The ROM is version 1.0. Just playing around, I figured out how to get into the config menu and set background colors, 80 column, etc. I happened to have an external 5.25" Laser drive I got with my $15 IIc+ and was able to boot up the only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image if that's what it takes. Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector that the newer computers take? >> sounds like you have the original model GS with 256k. later ones such as mine have ROM 03 and 1 meg. My GS also had a memory expansion card that I filled up to the max by using an XT's memory dip chips so most likely you can do the same. Nibble magazine used to have a program called dos plus which gave you two 400k dos 3.3 volumes on a 800k floppy. you can expand that GS like you would any //e or + except you dont need an 80 column card of course. the disk ][ drives you speak of can be used with a standard //e controller card if you like, or the apple // newsgroup members should be able to provide a pinout to cable those 20pin connectors to the unidisk port on the back of the computer. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 20 14:08:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Composing on paper, Green-bar, hardcopy output, card decks (L ong) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000620120036.00bd3140@208.226.86.10> >I seem to remember pictures being drawn on the decks to >allow the user to peer through the computer room window to see if your deck >was due to be run soon. Very common trick at UNLV as well where I "borrowed" the CDC machine to do a summer job for the Clark County Classroom Teachers Association. >Worst setup was MU Computer Sciences where you turned >in the cards and got back output in 24 hours. Many times with message CPU >time exceeded and no output. At UNLV there was a sign at the deck submission window that said, "turn around time is 2 hrs." However on weekends there wasn't very many jobs being run so turn around was like 2 minutes (deck to printed output) but one old witch of an operator insisted on holding your printout for an hour or so before giving it to you. (Being the nice young teenage male that I was I would point out to her that my printout was sitting in the printer out basket. :-) Then she came up with a "scam." When I asked for my printout she would say, "It hasn't run yet, the queue is full." Which might have dissuaded me except that I could log into an interactive terminal and figure out that this wasn't true. So I wrote a deck that resubmitted itself with a random job name through the virtual reader. After running it the Queue really was full! With about 1000 jobs! She got a freaked trying to kill jobs in the queue that were obvious gook, but of course anytime on ran it would immediately fill up the queue again. Finally she shut down the entire RJE station (the actual computer was in Reno I think) and deleted everything by hand (of course some of the jobs "looked" real because their randomly generated names were credible, restart the RJE station and Whomp! full queue again. Finally, she just shut it down, deleted everything, and restarted it. I got my printouts from then on without any additional commentary. --Chuck From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 14:35:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: <20000620180746.9606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of > Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. > MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I > doing wrong? I've got the answer! :-) Here's what you're doing wrong: You're using MS-Windows. :-) :-) :-) Seriously, good example! Expect answers like: "Firstly, I think you meant to say VMS - that stood for very much storage, heheh, although it's not much storage these days (snort), not MVS, and no one uses VMS any more, so upgade to NT on a newer maching your problem should go away," "I used to have one of those 9-track players in my car - never heard of anyone using one with a computer; you need to upgrade it." [yes, I know the difference between an 8 track audio player and a 9-track magtape drive, but I'll bet they won't]. Also, expect to be asked if you've configured Luzedoze correctly on your 370. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 14:40:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: <000901bfdae2$48cea6f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Will J said: > > those drives are very nice units... > > I have some of the 340 MB's available to interested > parties, also an Eagle. . . > > (A deafening silence is heard) A deafening silence? I'd think everyone else would also be shouting "I want one! And, wow, an Eagle, I want one!" The roar of the crowd should be deafening! :-) After all, who wouldn't want a Fujitsu Eagle? ...are you any where near Baltimore? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:07:38 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000620075752.0121d5b0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> References: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: >Hi Mike; > >You probably don't need it. These tapes would be useful for >the machines made by Apollo before it was bought by HP, at least >for the non-68040 based. These had model names such as DN3000, >DN3500 and DN4000, and ran Apollo's version of Unix, called >Domain OS. Pretty decent. The machines you have were made by HP >after it acquired Apollo; the first ones to bear the HP/Apollo name >were the 68030/40 series 400 machines, which ran HPUX. For the >400t you might want to look into netBSD, as the last version of >HPUX that runs in 68K-based machines is 9.1 (I think) and is not >y2k compliant. The series 700 machines have PA RISC cpus and >should run HPUX 10.20 . > >carlos. > >At 03:50 AM 6/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before >>>responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, >> >>Could someone translate this into English? >> >>Do I need it or want this? >> >>I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free >>update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. Thanks, that was what I was wanting to know. Cheers, Mike Ford From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:29:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a >couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); >does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector >that the newer computers take? The I/O controller boards sell for $5 or less on eBay, and expansion is limited only by your budget. ;) Come to think of it, I have both the new controller cards AND the adapter cables for the old drives (I think). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:46:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Composing on paper, Green-bar, hardcopy output, card decks (L ong) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >paper on the printer. Worst setup was MU Computer Sciences where you turned >in the cards and got back output in 24 hours. Many times with message CPU >time exceeded and no output. Just set your job to run as class X. I forget the details, but our lazy sysops used to set the "accumulators" to class X to clear jobs out of the system or some sysop type reason. A few people found out, and when you ran class X, boom you had 60% of the machine to yourself, no billing or time limits. OTOH writing ASM when the code barfed, a low time limit was a GOOD idea. I remember one job just about killed a whole class account for the semester. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 12:51:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Programming on Paper In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 19, 0 09:50:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/66f3aa0f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 12:54:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <394EB860.24274.BAC7941@localhost> from "George Currie" at Jun 20, 0 00:18:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/39f0b2f1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 12:58:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <01c401bfda78$82b390c0$c6701fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Jun 20, 0 00:29:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/dd78350c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 13:50:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 20, 0 03:50:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 411 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/9418ac68/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 13:59:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 12:00:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/dfa12406/attachment-0001.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 14:51:03 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) Message-ID: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > I forgot to answer the other question: > > > So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and > > no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? > > I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image > > if that's what it takes. > > Apple never supported DOS on 3.5". There were some third-party hacks, but > I've never obtained copies. So how did the Apple IIc+ work? It has an internal 3.5" floppy. Did you have to have an external 5.25" drive to play old games, etc? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 14:55:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) Message-ID: <20000620195502.8742.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > > and was able to boot up the > > only DOS 3.3 disk I could find - Zork I. > > Minor nitpick: Zork I doesn't use DOS of any version. It was originally > shipped on a bootable 13-sector diskette, and later on 16-sector, which > is what you have. True. Mea Culpa. I should have said, "the only Apple II bootable disk I have is..." > The earliest Zork I release was buggy as all heck. Once I managed to have > in my inventory about 20-30 "rooms". On an early version of Zork I for the C-64, I managed to "give me to the thief". Later on, in the strange passage, I saw "a cretin" sitting in the hallway. > In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games > for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. > If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd > certainly love to get a copy. I remember seeing "Planetfall" up on the wall of the Digital Store in downtown Columbus when I was a kid. I knew who Digital was, but I didn't get my first Dec machine until I was 16 (a PDP-8/L that took two years to restore owing to a lack of docs). > The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. I agree. They aren't much different from each other, architecturally. I've completely disassembled the C-64 version 1 engine, partially commented it and gotten it running on VICE with a VIC-20 and a BASIC 3.0 PET! If I ever had _way_ too much free time, I could probably craft a working engine for RT-11. I used to program that for a living, too, in a former life. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Jun 20 14:50:51 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000620005220.00a03c90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Yep, the Mac classic I have doesn't have any cursor keys or arrow keys or anything of the sort. The Apple ][+ has left/right arrow keys, but no up/down arrows. I can send a scan of my keyboard iffen you like... clint On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Dragging something out of the cobwebs of my brain... I seem to recall a > rumor that I heard way back in the beginning of the Mac scene, something > about the very first Mac machines and/or prototypes did not include cursor > keys on the keyboard as you were supposed to navigate solely with the mouse. > > Is this true? (I have a local AM Radio talk show called "Computer Talk" and > I need a stumper-type question... this could be it!) > > Thanks for any help, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 20 15:04:08 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001bfdaf2$b24ffab0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > ...are you any where near Baltimore? Well, I almost promised someone I'd drive to Washington to get a uV3100. "What, Three Thousand Miles???" Ohhhh, you meant Washington state (Me silently: Duh). I'm in Lower NY State, driving distance to/from D.C. for good causes. John A. From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 20 15:10:48 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Did you see... Message-ID: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, just on this list? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 15:12:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Coding forms and 'traffic lights' (was : Re : Composing on paper) In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at Jun 20, 0 01:29:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/1962cd30/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 20 15:15:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 03:40:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000620/5f0b6816/attachment-0001.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Jun 20 15:36:29 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Got some DecMate 1s! Message-ID: <394F8F7D.32127.127F4D7@localhost> WooHoo! I received two DecMate I systems today along with a Dec LetterPrinter 100 and an RX02 Dual Drive unit. I have some doc and software to go with them. Have to sort through it all. Problem is I promised my wife I'd go with her to the ball game tonight. Dang, now I can't check it all out until tomorrow evening. Oh well, at least this way she won't complain about having them around the house... not much anyway. Now the quest to get them up and running begins. Oh and thanks for getting the systems to me John, if you're still on the list. They arrived nicely packed and safe and sound. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 20 15:37:31 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > Bill Sudbrink asks: > How many {ADM-3A's} are out there, just on this list? One here. ADM-5, I think. Similiar looking. No eBay. (This was found, hanging above the floor, face down only by its cord, pushed off behind a table next to a networking wireharness, One small island of HW in a building being gutted just last year. The ADM had been forgotten but was still running happily. A workhorse.) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 20 14:57:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: References: <20000620180746.9606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: >> "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of >> Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. >> MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I >> doing wrong? > >I've got the answer! :-) Here's what you're doing wrong: You're using >MS-Windows. :-) :-) :-) > >Seriously, good example! Expect answers like: "Firstly, I think you What could be good is a rigged show, questions would be planned ahead for maximum "funny" impact, with answers like, well funny things. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 14:51:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Radio shows? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > You know what would really be fun? If a dozen or so of us all kept > calling one of those PeeCeeLuzeDoze shows and kept asking them > questions like this. Ok, first, we'd have to get past the call > screening, but, we could tell the call screener that it's about some > LuzeDoze system related problem, then get on the air and ask a > question about a real computer system. That's it, we should launch a <...> No thanks, I'll pass. Some of us actually have better things to do with our time. > 410-744-4900 Hey, a phone number! Maybe we should call that and ask whoever answers a bunch of PC questions. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 20 15:57:21 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: Did you see... (Bill Sudbrink) References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 20, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? Cool! > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? I've got an ADM-5. What a neat little terminal! I like it a lot. I think I want to get an iMac and set them side-by-side. :) -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620211808.7345.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Apple never supported DOS on 3.5". There were some third-party hacks, but > I've never obtained copies. Ethan wrote: > So how did the Apple IIc+ work? It has an internal 3.5" floppy. Did you > have to have an external 5.25" drive to play old games, etc? Yes. Especially since the games on 5.25" disks usually had some form of copy protection anyhow. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 16:20:27 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620195502.8742.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:55:02 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000620195502.8742.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000620212027.7363.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. Ethan wrote: > I agree. They aren't much different from each other, architecturally. I've > completely disassembled the C-64 version 1 engine, partially commented it > and gotten it running on VICE with a VIC-20 and a BASIC 3.0 PET! If I ever > had _way_ too much free time, I did the same thing with the Apple ][ version of the interpreter back in 1981. I got it running under ProDOS and Apex, using the OS to access the virtual image rather than raw disk I/O. We should trade "source" code. :-) From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 15:24:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620195103.21877.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So how did the Apple IIc+ work? It has an internal 3.5" floppy. Did you > have to have an external 5.25" drive to play old games, etc? Yes. And for anything else you used ProDOS which can natively support 3.5" disks. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 15:27:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? > > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? If you're wondering if they're rare, the answer is no, they are not. They're about as rare as Altairs, which by the way used to show up on eBay at least once a week. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 20 16:30:51 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:10:48PM -0400 References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000620163051.G4176@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:10:48PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? I've got an ADM-5. Obtained under "its been sitting in the junk room (actually an abandoned old dormitory first floor) for about 10 years now, my head is turned the other way and I dont know where you got it" pretenses from the college I attended. Thing's indestructible. I actually saw a couple of them still in use at one of WorldCom's POP/colo facilities in Dallas when I had to go down there for an ISP I worked for a couple of years ago.. Sadly, I lost one of my VT320s to a power outage/surge the other night; it wont send/receive anymore. I'm down to one 320 and one 420; anybody got a green-screen vt320 they'll let go cheaply? VAXES MUST HAVE GREEN MONO CONSOLES.... and my pristine VT102 w/manual isnt going to be plugged in until I get GOOD FILTERED PROTECTED power. 8-) Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From djg at drs-esg.com Tue Jun 20 16:38:38 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 Message-ID: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> From: Eric Smith >In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games >for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. >If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd >certainly love to get a copy. > Amazon.com has witness for pdp-11 (64k) for only $69.95. I had remembered running across this a while ago but though it was Zork. Either they found a different one or (more likely) my memory is bad. Hardcover Disk edition (April 1984) Looks like it's their 828,139th best seller... David Gesswein From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 20 16:43:00 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701bfdb00$814d1a20$350810ac@chipware.com> > If you're wondering if they're rare, the answer is no, they are not. > They're about as rare as Altairs, which by the way used to show up on > eBay at least once a week. I would think that they are significantly more common than Altairs. You wouldn't normally find 20 Altairs in a bank. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 20 15:59:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: More Stuff Message-ID: <01e501bfdafa$87b330d0$7d64c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 3:06 PM Subject: Re: More Stuff >On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I want one too!. I notice it didn't mention what CPU it used -- any >> ideas? Initially I guessed at the Z80, but I am now wondering if it's an >> 1802 or something odd... > >No menion in the ad. Maybe Allison knows. The kit was sold by Netronics, >the same people who sold the ELF II and Exlporer 85 kits. Netronics what? they only did the Explorer (8085) and the Elf (1802) anthing else were supporting boards for one or the other. Allison > >Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Tue Jun 20 16:53:41 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Free stuff! Message-ID: <32574044@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Hey -- Been housecleaning recently. I have several machines and some parts available to anyone who can come pick them up -- I'm living in Jacksonville, FL for the summer. Apple IIc and power adapter (works) Zenith 286 laptop (works) Apple IIGS (powers up, but I seem to remember it having some weird intermittent error message) Magnavox monochrome Computer Monitor 80 (works, small and lightweight, good for a testing bench?) Mac Plus with power supply problem, rest of it works 2 internal SCSI hard drives (230 and 260 MB), both worked last I checked 800k internal Mac floppy drive (dunno if it works) 400k external Mac floppy drive (dunno if it works) ImageWriter II (works, good cosmetic condition) Dead Apple Newton 100 with some accessories, manuals, etc. -- I think I fried something when attempting to resolder the loose audio wire Mac SE/30 (works, but if you take this, you are required to take the rest, too. ;-) And OT: some other electronic thingies, like a dead Sony Bookman and a Sega "simon says" game, if your tastes are that eclectic. Please email off-list for details, directions, etc. Thanks, -- MB From aknight at mindspring.com Tue Jun 20 17:02:29 2000 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.co m> References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000620180229.0086a8d0@pop.mindspring.com> Hi, I have one ADM-3A that is available for sale or trade. I don't have a price in mind but am certainly not looking for "eBay" amounts - I'd actually prefer a trade for some interesting old nixie-tube or HP calculator stuff or certain computer stuff that's on my "want" list (see my web page). The one I have is an off-white color, not light blue as some of them are. Please contact me ASAP if you're interested. Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm - "want" list is at http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/wanted.htm At 04:37 PM 6/20/00 -0400, you wrote: >> Bill Sudbrink asks: >> How many {ADM-3A's} are out there, just on this list? From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Jun 20 17:03:31 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How? References: <000901bfdae2$48cea6f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <394FEA32.B4262E14@arrl.net> Speaking of SMD's, weve got some relatives of the PA5xxx, the PA3A1/PA3A2 which use the removable 80 Mb packs.We have been looking for the alignment pack for these; anyone know of a source or, dare I ask, have one of these lying around ? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nick Oliviero : Houston, Texas Project Engineer : nolivi@coair.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - John Allain wrote: > > Will J said: > > those drives are very nice units... > > I have some of the 340 MB's available to interested > parties, also an Eagle. . . > > (A deafening silence is heard) > > John A. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 20 16:04:16 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Did you see... Message-ID: Bill Sudbrink said: > > If you're wondering if they're rare, the answer is no, they are not. > > They're about as rare as Altairs, which by the way used to show up on > > eBay at least once a week. > > I would think that they are significantly more common than Altairs. > You wouldn't normally find 20 Altairs in a bank. My point was that they are not very rare at all and the person who paid $355 for one was, well, let's not get into that :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 20 17:10:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> from "David Gesswein" at Jun 20, 2000 05:38:38 PM Message-ID: <200006202210.PAA19623@shell1.aracnet.com> > Amazon.com has witness for pdp-11 (64k) for only $69.95. I had > remembered running across this a while ago but though it was Zork. Either > they found a different one or (more likely) my memory is bad. > > Hardcover Disk edition (April 1984) > > Looks like it's their 828,139th best seller... > > David Gesswein > They list several of them, BUT that doesn't mean they can actually come up with a copy. I forget the wording, but it amounts to they know such a beasty has existed, and will try and find out if any of their sources have a copy (highly unlikely). Zane From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 20 13:13:38 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Marion.Bates@dartmouth.edu In-Reply-To: <32574044@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <200006202218.SAA12963@smtp11.bellglobal.com> > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:53:41 -0400 (EDT) > From: Marion.Bates@dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) > Subject: Free stuff! > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > And OT: some other electronic thingies, like a dead Sony Bookman and a Sega "simon says" game, if your tastes are that eclectic. About the newton messagepad 100, what it acts like when something fried? What else in electronic thingies? Jason From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 20 17:25:11 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... Message-ID: <20000620222511.48597.qmail@hotmail.com> >The Mac Plus on my desk right now has cursor keys. I've >heard that the 128k Mac (the very first model) had >neither cursor keys nor >the numeric keypad. > >I have an Apple /// at home which has special keys for >cursor movement. They auto-repeat quite slowly when held >down, but if you press a bit harder, the auto-repeat >speeds up. Rather a >nice idea, I thought. > >-- >John Honniball >Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk >University of the West of England John is right. The keyboards on the Mac 128 & 512 have no arrow keys. I even have a "proper" keyboard (made by datadesk) that has arrow keys, but they don't work. So I suppose that the ROM has no support for the keys. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From red at bears.org Tue Jun 20 17:34:47 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Please confirm *old* Mac Rumors... In-Reply-To: <007c01bfdada$6d6dc7a0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > Was this another "Steveism", like the lack of a fan, and the sealed, > appliance-style case? I believe it was. I've read accounts which state that some of the engineers on the project really pushed for arrow keys but that Steve felt that having more than one way to move the cursor about would be confusing for 'the rest of us'. This may be apocryphal. ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 17:51:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> (message from David Gesswein on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:38:38 -0400) References: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> Message-ID: <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com> David Gesswein wrote: > Amazon.com has witness for pdp-11 (64k) for only $69.95. I had > remembered running across this a while ago but though it was Zork. Either > they found a different one or (more likely) my memory is bad. Tried buying that from then in 1997, along with the other Infocom games they listed. They aren't in stock, and they are unable to get them from the publisher. What a surprise. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 20 19:36:03 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:46 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:57:21PM -0400 References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000620203603.A4162@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:57:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've got an ADM-5. What a neat little terminal! I like it a lot. > > I think I want to get an iMac and set them side-by-side. :) A friend of mine was talking about that when the iMac was first released -- why the heck would Apple want to resurrect the "blue pig" form factor!!! Anyway, add my ADM3A to the tally. Geez, I don't even remember where I got it... And I forget why "the dumb terminal" was supposed to sound *good*. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 20 19:49:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:51:22PM -0000 References: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000620204905.B4162@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:51:22PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Tried buying that from then in 1997, along with the other Infocom games >they listed. They aren't in stock, and they are unable to get them from >the publisher. What a surprise. Who is the publisher these days, is it still Activision, or has it changed hands again? I have the PDP-11 version of Sorcerer (bought by mail order directly from Infocom in the mid 80s) but I'm not brave enough to violate the copyright on something which is still a shipping, for-profit product, on some platform anyway. So I want to find out who's in charge and beg them for a permission letter... Eons ago I went and asked (in person, when Infocom still existed) for permission to do an IBM 370 IML interpreter based on my disassembly of the PDP-11 one, but they laughed at me. But I would hope the attitude is different now, especially because a freely distributed IML interpreter would generate at least a handful of Lost Treasures sales. Anyway I disassembled and commented it too (guess that's a rite of passage!), in case anyone cares here are the important patchable locations in the IML interpreter that comes with Sorcerer (there are several different flavors of IML and this is just one, other versions may have had different patch locations): 1000 term type: 0=unknown (no status bar) 1=VT100 2=VT52 1002 page width (0 => prompt) 1004 page height (0 => no **MORE** processing) 1006 TSX single-char mode flag (GS 'S'), I don't know what that means but it's in the setup program 1032 randomness flag (0 => random, NZ => not random), must be for debugging or something 1034 program name in .RAD50 (two words) The 1034 one is the important one, you can either patch in the name of the IML file, or clear the field out in which case it will prompt. That way you can use the same interpreter to run a bunch of different IML files. If anyone has a friend at Activision (or whoever it is now) *please* hook me up, I'd really like to get permission to release this. John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 19:55:17 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006172251.PAA29587@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 17 Jun 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it > installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly Well, I've made the initial tests... seems that the problem may be before the regulators and after the fuse. Since I didn't have a 21W, 6V, lightbulb - I called around to many auto parts stores and couldn't find one. The few that did have 6V bulbs apparently couldn't be bothered to open their parts manuals and look for one with a 21W rating... of course, had I walked in and asked them to check the books, they probably would have. Anyway, I used one of my other dummy loads - this one came out of the drivebay of a VAXstation-2000 - filled with power resistors, which I'm guessing is about the equivalent load of somewhere between a hard drive and an RX50. Hooking up the VOM, I got a reading of about 3.5mV for the 5V supply and between that and zero for everything else. So, it's not completely dead, but, close to it. And, yes, the fan is spinning. > (A6) that is visible when you remove the top cover, and the main Haven't checked that yet. > adjustment is the +5V ADJ potentiometer that is visible on the power Does adjusting that make a difference with any of the other voltages? > Supply voltages are: > > supply v max cur upper lim lower lim test point > +5V I/O 50A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5V > +5V M 4.5A 5.25Vdc 5.00Vdc A6 +5M > +12V I/O 2.5A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12V > +12V M 2.0A 12.6Vdc 11.4Vdc A6 +12 M > -2V I/O 4.0A -2.2Vdc -1.8Vdc A6 -2V > -12V I/O 2.0A -12.6Vdc -11.4Vdc n/a > -12V M 250mA -16Vdc -9Vdc A6 -12M > (unregulated) > +30V I/O 250mA 42Vdc 22Vdc A6 J2 pin 4 > (unregulated) What's the difference between M and I/O in the supply v. column? > The general thing to do at initial checkout is to adjust the +5V ADJ > pot 'til the first of these is at +5.15 +/-0.05 volts, then check the > other voltages to make sure they're within range. Something tells me to leave this pot alone at this point. As I don't have a set of schematics, can anyone tell me what to check next? Meanwhile, I guess I'll go poking around and see what voltages I can find in various spots. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 20 20:00:39 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Infocom on pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20000620204905.B4162@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:49:05 -0400) References: <200006202138.RAA07686@drs-esg.com> <20000620225122.8229.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000620204905.B4162@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000621010039.9329.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > But I would hope the attitude is > different now, especially because a freely distributed IML interpreter > would generate at least a handful of Lost Treasures sales. _Lost Treasures_ is no more, alas. They repackaged most of the games into a single box called something like _Classics of Infocom_ or the like, but it's out of print. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Jun 20 20:19:54 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Did you see... References: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <005001bfdb1e$ceeb6b60$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 5:40 AM Subject: Did you see... > I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but > did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? P.T. Barnum was right. > I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a > bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover > the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, > just on this list? I have a couple. One's dead, the other still works IIRC. 240v versions of course. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 20 20:34:56 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <20000620203603.A4162@dbit.dbit.com> References: <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> <14671.55985.430595.678850@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000620213456.00abc250@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Wilson may have mentioned these words: >Anyway, add my ADM3A to the tally. Geez, I don't even remember where I >got it... And I forget why "the dumb terminal" was supposed to sound *good*. IIRC, I have two ADM31's in my garage (saved 'em both for $5.00 USD) but I haven't had a chance to check them out... but I can tell you that they are an actual computer inside... Moto 6800 processor, Moto 6845 character generator w/EPROM for a char. rom (which might be fun to hack) and dunno how much memory's in there, but it could be fun to turn it into an actual computer... I have no manuals for them... anywhere on the 'net where I might get specs & stuff? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jun 20 20:44:05 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <200006201858.NAA36066@opal.tseinc.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Jun 20, 2000 02:58:00 pm" Message-ID: <200006210144.SAA19537@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > So... now that I have two machines that want to have 3.5" drives and > no copies of DOS 3.3 on that medium, is it possible to aquire it anywhere? > I have Macs, etc., so I can make a 3.5" disk from an Apple disk image > if that's what it takes. You can get ProDOS and GS/OS (usually just called System, ala Mac) on 3.5" floppy. I'd pick up a 5.25" drive from somewhere for DOS 3.3 stuff. Flea markets and surplus stores seem to have plenty of them lately. I don't know what the latest System that will run on ROM 01 is. You can also look into GNO/ME, which was a pseudo-unix clone that runs under GS/OS. Last I heard it was made freeware, but it might be hard to find. > Also, are there any ways I can expand this puppy? I happen to have a > couple of old Apple double disk drives (the kind that came with the IIe); > does anyone know of a diagram to make an adapter for the 19-pin connector > that the newer computers take? Other than additional floppy drives and maxing out the memory, I'd recommend a SCSI card and a smallish external hard drive. The SCSI cards can usually read CDROMs with the right System and drivers. Might be useful to those of us that archive things to CDROM. Single session/small disk only, though. The cards are somewhat hard to find used with drivers, but as of a couple years ago you could get new ones, if you were willing to part with the dough. I believe there are now IDE cards available for the // series as well, but that's a fairly new thing. The GS is generally compatible with all cards that a //e can use. You can build quite a system in short order. My system is a ROM 03, 4MB, 256 MB HD System 6, 2x3.5",2x5.25". Networks via AppleTalk. Has a PC Transporter and 5.25" 360K Transdrive, which I mostly use for file transfer from PCs, but it can also run MS-DOS. I also occasionally pop in a CP/M card. (Kick me, I like machines with multiple processors.) The hard drive is overkill, but it was the smallest one I had on hand when I got the SCSI card. Some day I'll replace it with something more contemporary to the rest of the system. Eric From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 20:47:59 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Yo References: Message-ID: <017601bfdb22$bbfdb2c0$2f731fd1@default> As stated long ago and as printed in the newspaper article done on me, my goal is to open a museum sometime in the very near future. I'm trying to get corporate funding and grants to get it off the ground. Right now I have stuff stored everywhere, such as 1800 sq ft warehouse in Houston (full), a 10x15 storage unit in Houston, two bedrooms in a house in Houston, 4- 10x15 and 1-10x20 storage units here in St. Paul, a one car garage full here, one bedroom full here in the apartment, and 5- 3x4x16 storage units in my complex here. I have over 3000 hardware items, over 1500 books, tons of old test equipment, and several hundred other types of items such cups, mousepads, mice, giveaways from trade shows (such as the items you send me each year from the VCF), I have computer art work (paint and photo), computer puzzles, computer toys, robots, and the list goes on. My wife says if I die before the museum is built than this all goes to the trashman. I started this back in 1985 and my dream of a museum started back 1992. But rising a family and working everyday was tops on my list at the time and now the kids are all grown and can go after my dream. I have gotten help from many on this list and hope that I can be of help to some of the new members. Well that enough history for today. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer Festival To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 12:42 AM Subject: Yo > > John, let me ask you: what the hell are you going to do with all the crap > you are collecting? I mean, I collect a lot of stuff, but you seem to be > taking in about 4 times what I have in total every few months. > > How much stuff do you have, where do you keep it all, and what are you > going to eventually do with it? > > More curious than anything... > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 21:11:14 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: New Finds References: <001801bfdacc$bd9056c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <020501bfdb25$fb25e1e0$2f731fd1@default> No this unit was made by Zenith for TI and others (Health) with TI99/4 Color Monitor in big letters on the front. The model number on it is DC13-FF-4 and it's a big unit just like a regular TV in size but no tuner. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gregory To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:32 AM Subject: Re: New Finds > > -----Original Message----- > From: John R. Keys Jr. > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 11:36 PM > Subject: New Finds > > > >Well the week back from vacation has been pretty good I hit 3 auction > >and came away with a few good deals. > > > >5. TI99 color monitor the size of a TV and looks just like an old 19" > >model. > > > John, do you mean a 9" monitor? AFAIK the only monitor produced by TI for > the 99/4(A) was a neat little silver composite monitor, with a vertical > dimension of 9" or 10". I believe they were bundled with the original 99/4 > for the bargain price of $1,200 or thereabouts. They were later available > separately, but still way too expensive. > I'd be interested in more details (especially the TI part number, usually > PHP ####) if it is a TI badged 19" for the 99/4(A). > > Regards, > Mark > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 20 21:33:52 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: New Finds References: Message-ID: <025701bfdb29$24773f00$2f731fd1@default> AM2901APC/7829DP; AM2909PC/7811DP; AM2907PC/7828DM Those are the bigger chips on the board. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: Re: New Finds > > 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer > > with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit > > Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? > > The AM2900 series are bit-slice chips for making your own processors :-). > The main ones are either 4 bit ALU/registers (2901 and 2903) that you can > cascade up to the word size you want and microcode sequencer chips (2909, > 2911, 2910). > > There were various evaluation boards. Typically they gave you an ALU of > perhaps 8 or 16 bits, a sequencer, and a RAM based control store that you > loarded your own microcode into. > > You'll need a copy of the AMD bipolar processor databook (or 2900 > databook) to do much with this board. And a copy of 'Mick & Brick' (a > book entitled 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design') would be useful as well. > > Post the numbers on the larger chips (or anything that's not plain 74xx > TTL) on your board and we'll see if we can work out what you have. > > > -tony > > From ss at allegro.com Tue Jun 20 21:32:15 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <017601bfdb22$bbfdb2c0$2f731fd1@default> Message-ID: <394FC6BF.63.5AA244E@localhost> Re: ... > I have over 3000 hardware items, over 1500 books, ... > My wife says if I die before the museum is built than this all goes to the > trashman. That underscores something I posted on last year: MAKE A WILL! Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the disposition of their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on eBay", maybe it's "offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to Stanford"...or ? Even if you don't decide now, your will will name an executor...he/she should be made aware of the value of the collection. All too often, I hear about people dying and some computer (or more!) being thrown away. For collectors who live alone, they should make sure *somebody* is aware that their collection isn't trash! Even if you know no one, and have no friends, no relatives, post a note somewhere in your house/apartment ... it'll be your final way of giving back to the hobby. (Yes, I have one...produced for free, using Classic software (an obsolete version of some will program from Nolo Press)) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 21:59:42 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden Message-ID: Something's been puzzling me: when I look at my CDC SMD drive, the NCR applications processor, some smaller SMD drives, LEDs in my 11/44, etc., there's something I just don't understand. Why did companies begin hiding blinking lights, status displays, etc. behind covers, in places behind the front panel that aren't obvious at first glance, hidden in boards in a card cage, etc.? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 20 22:55:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 2000 10:59:42 PM Message-ID: <200006210355.UAA00440@shell1.aracnet.com> > Something's been puzzling me: when I look at my CDC SMD drive, the NCR > applications processor, some smaller SMD drives, LEDs in my 11/44, > etc., there's something I just don't understand. Why did companies > begin hiding blinking lights, status displays, etc. behind covers, in > places behind the front panel that aren't obvious at first glance, > hidden in boards in a card cage, etc.? Well, I know the only time I need to see the LED's on my /44 or /73 is when I'm working the hardware, at which point I've got the card cages opened up. It would have taken serious work, to get those LED's to show up somewhere other than on the card itself, and doing that work would place restrictions on the chassis. Besides who is to say I want controller 'X' with it's particular LED scheme? Maybe I want controller 'Y' which has a totally different set of LED's, or maybe none at all. A better question might be, why not. It makes sense from both a design standpoint, and a cost standpoint. Note: All these comments are relative to PDP-11's and VAXen, I'm not familiar with SMD drives or NCR applications processors. Zane From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 23:10:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tonight, I did some more checking into the following system: On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Greetings, is anyone here familiar with an NCR model 3401, class 5451 > "application processor"? On a hand-written label on the front of the > machine there's a description of the memory in it: 8MB, 145ns. This > box has the following switches on the front panel, in addition to the > power switch: > > Station ID (two thumbwheels) Does this indicate that this was part of a multiple-processor system? > Load options: > local/aux > disk/tape > primary OS/alt OS Does anyone on this list know of other systems with a switch that apparently selects which operating system gets loaded? > BCD restart/system reset Does anyone have an idea what BCD restart is? It causes the diagnostic display to blink. System reset causes it to go through the same countdown that occurs when the system is powered up, then as also when powered up, displays a few different codes, then displays 800F. > diag port: on/off > mode: normal/diagnostic > ps margin: +5%/normal/-5% What's a ps margin switch for? > On the back of the machine are the following connectors: > > LS link (low speed link?): pos 0, pos1, pos2 (9-pin) > Diagostic port (25-pin - RS232 port?) > System bus: channel A, channel B (9-pin) > HS link (high speed linl?): pos 4, pos 5, pos6, pos7 (9-pin) The boards in this system include: * NMAB board (does anyone have an idea what this is?): Contains mostly 74xxx logic, including about 30 or so 74F374 ICs, 74F244, 74F139, 74F373, 74F191, 74F175, etc., and some Motorola ICs: 6-1090367DS and 7-1682604DS (no idea what these are). Also some PCA EP8301 active delay lines. There are three wide ribbon connectors (approx. 50 cond.) going to both the memory and CPU boards, and a fourth that just goes to the CPU board. * Single Port Memory Mother bd.: This contains eight memory cards, and has another 8 empty slots, so, the maximum memory this system can use, I'm guessing, is 16MB. * PE API (main part of CPU board): Contains six 1" square chips with heat-sinks I can't remove to see the IC ID numbers. I was told this system has some Intel chips in it, and, not seeing any elsewhere, am guessing that these are the Intel chips. What Intel chips co-exist with a writeable control store? Can't wait until the schematics arrive! There are also sixteen little square block ICs: PCA EP7308 077-8337305 (no idea what these are - couldn't find any info. Delay lines?) and four larger 24-pin (IIRC) chips: NCR/32-5802E 6266155 7-1680941 and NCR/32-590F C906A21 7-1680951 (does anyone know what these are?), two crytal oscillators (13 and 32MHz), etc. * Writeable Control Store: Mounted atop the CPU board. Contains seventy-two AMD 7-168436 (the only other number on them is the 86xx date code number) ICs, six MB7142H (2k * 8 dual port SRAM?) ICs, assorted 74Fxxx logic, six Motorola 7-1682609DS, etc. Somehow, I'm getting the feeling that the numbers on some of these chips are special numbering schemes from NCR, e.g. the 7-xxxxx... numbers. :-( * SBA/TOD - appears to contain the time of day clock circuitry; anyone know what SBA stands for? This is also mounted atop the CPU board. * API/SAM - very small circuit board containing two 555 timers and a few other ICs; this board is mounted atop the SBA/TOD board. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 20 23:23:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: <200006210355.UAA00440@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Well, I know the only time I need to see the LED's on my /44 or /73 is when > I'm working the hardware, at which point I've got the card cages opened up. > It would have taken serious work, to get those LED's to show up somewhere > other than on the card itself, and doing that work would place restrictions > on the chassis. Not necessarily... the boards could have been mounted horizontally with the LEDs at the edge of the boards facing a plexiglas panel, or, the front panel designed with punch-out areas where LEDs attached to inexpenive ribbon cables could have been connected. > Besides who is to say I want controller 'X' with it's > particular LED scheme? Maybe I want controller 'Y' which has a totally > different set of LED's, or maybe none at all. See above. A front panel with punch-out areas (recloseable if board for LEDs is removed), where the LED displays for various boards could be installed. > A better question might be, why not. It makes sense from both a design > standpoint, and a cost standpoint. I can see a cost standpoint, but I suspect the design standpoint was influenced by marketing wanting to hide the intricacies of the machine from the users. > Note: All these comments are relative to PDP-11's and VAXen, I'm not > familiar with SMD drives or NCR applications processors. It just seems reasonable that a drive's display, which lets one know certain things about what the drive is doing, as well as diagnostic info., is more useful on the front panel, rather than hidden behind something that needs to be opened up or removed in order to see it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 21 01:01:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Any AS/400 experts around? Message-ID: <20000621060153.11594.qmail@brouhaha.com> I'm now the proud (?) owner of an old AS/400, Type 9406 Model B45. Assuming that when we managed to let the rack fall on its side that we didn't destroy it; this is yet to be determined. Anyhow, I have very little (bordering on no) clue about AS/400s, so if anyone else knows about them, tips, advice, help, or the like would be greatly appreciated. The system came with about twelve Type 9332-600 disk drives (600M each), a Type 9348-001 nine-track drive (which is an HP 88780 with a custom front panel), and two terminals (but only one keyboard). It appears that the disks and tape drive are differential SCSI devices with Sun-style 50-pin D-sub connectors. I vaugely recall reading in the past that AS/400s use a weird sector size that is not a power of two; most high-end SCSI drives can be reformatted for alternate sector sizes. The CPU box contains: part feature upper lower slot number number connector connector function ---- ------- ------- --------- --------- ---------- 1 66X4709 3060 16M memory 2 66X4709 3060 16M memory 3 66X4490 3055 8M memory 4 21F5132 2513 processor? tamper seals! 5 93X2120 2514 ??? 6 93X2701 2601 50 female tape interface 7 93X2709 6110 50 female disk interface 8 46F4141 6130 ??? 9 26F5028 6031 50 male 50 male ??? 10 59X4270 6040 25 female ??? 11 93X2737 6110 50 female second disk interface? 12 blank panel 13 blank panel I guess that one of the cards in slot 9 or 10 must be an interface to terminals or to a 3174 terminal controller or the like. The IBM AS/400 web site doesn't seem to have any info on hardware this old. I'd really like to get an ethernet interface. I got factory-sealed 9-track tape distributions of two different releases of OS/400, four tapes each. I gather that there's some sort of license key needed for the software, so I have no idea whether I'll be able to install it. Naturally when I got the machine the seller didn't make any arrangements for a license transfer. For the price I paid I suppose it would be unreasonable to ask them to jump through hoops to do such a thing. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 03:52:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Power Supply In-Reply-To: <000501bfd716$14009ca0$0c703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: >I just picked up an IBM PC Convertible at a thrift shop. It has a battery >(dead), but no power supply. Does anyone know the power specifications for >it? Mine looks like 15 v (has a flat line on top with 3 dots below it, which I "think" means DC) and 2.7 amps. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 08:01:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE4F@TEGNTSERVER> > I've got an ADM-5. What a neat little terminal! I like it a lot. > > I think I want to get an iMac and set them side-by-side. :) Could the reason for the iMac's popularity be racial memory of the ADM-3 and 5 days? :-) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 08:09:28 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE50@TEGNTSERVER> > Something's been puzzling me: when I look at my CDC SMD drive, the NCR > applications processor, some smaller SMD drives, LEDs in my 11/44, > etc., there's something I just don't understand. Why did companies > begin hiding blinking lights, status displays, etc. behind covers, in > places behind the front panel that aren't obvious at first glance, > hidden in boards in a card cage, etc.? So they wouldn't have to document their meaning for end-users. "hello, Prime Technical Support, how may I help you?" "My P400 front panel is blinking wildly, like I've never seen before; what should I do?" "We can sell you a VCP-based P650 that won't blink wildly and generate extraneous service calls to us, for $125k and your existing P400 system. How soon would you like delivery?" -dq From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 21 09:03:13 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Computers" Message-ID: <20000621090313.Y4176@mrbill.net> I've got a in-good-shape copy of this book, which I enjoyed very much- anybody out there an IBM fan, want this book, and have something interesting to trade for it in turn? Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Jun 21 10:39:06 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) References: <30.66aa642.267c429e@aol.com> Message-ID: <002501bfdb96$d606a400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 4:55 AM Subject: Re: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) > wasnt there a similar issue with the TRS80 model 1's expansion interface? I > remember hearing that it had a dodgy connection and many people devised > methods of maintaining good contact. Yep like real goldplated connector replacements which did cost a fortune. Beleive me you needed those ! Sipke From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Jun 21 10:50:48 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Miniscribe 6086? References: <200006170636.CAA09417@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <004f01bfdb98$78628e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> > Despite thier poor reliability record, I still like Miniscribe drives. > They sound neat. "Peeep wobble wobble Peep". Western Digital bought what > was left of Miniscribe and produced some really aweful drives when IDE was > beginning to really catch on. I remember stacks of dead WD 40mb 3.5" > drives at a company I worked for in 92/93. We called our 'boneyard' "The > Closet of Shame". The drives were an MFM mech with an IDE board attached. > They used stepper actuators and sucked eggs for reliability. They did > sound neat though..... > > I remember 3.5 " WD types that were mounted in a 5.25 bracket. At some point in their lives they would generate a lot of bad sectors in the outer cylinders. (You would expect the inner cylinders because of the higher bit densities). To fix the problem: partially unscrew the drive from the bracket (with a torck-tool) an fasten it crosswise (like you would fasten a tire). The harddisk would happely run another couple of years. Some supplier threw the bad ones out, and we asked the corpses for socalled educational purposes but quikly repaired them instead. Sipke From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 10:05:02 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) In-Reply-To: <002501bfdb96$d606a400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <000e01bfdb92$132b3490$350810ac@chipware.com> > > wasnt there a similar issue with the TRS80 model 1's expansion > > interface? I remember hearing that it had a dodgy connection > > and many people devised methods of maintaining good contact. > > Yep like real goldplated connector replacements which did cost > a fortune. Beleive me you needed those ! Yup, all three of mine have gold plated edge connectors soldered on to the original edge connectors. It makes things a bit ugly... From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Jun 21 10:25:02 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer > > with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit > > Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? > > [...] > > You'll need a copy of the AMD bipolar processor databook (or 2900 > databook) to do much with this board. And a copy of 'Mick & Brick' (a > book entitled 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design') would be useful as well. I have a copy of the AMD 2900 databook, which I might try to scan in somewhere (I can photocopy sections out for John if he needs them right away); someone also recently provided me with a scanned version of the Am2901 datasheet, which I can share. You're on your own for a copy of Mick and Brick - it's copyrighted, so I can't scan it in - and I'm not giving up my copy.... ;-) Powell's (http://www.powells.com) has two used copies available for $23.00/each. --Pat. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 11:37:44 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Yo References: <394FC6BF.63.5AA244E@localhost> Message-ID: <20000621163253.67342.qmail@hotmail.com> You could give your stuff to a local science center, they usually have tons of storage. Of course, the stipulation is they have to pick it up, and promise not to dispose of it. It would be easy to make a timeline of personal computers exhibit, or something. Include instructions on how to get lynx going via telnet on a Commodore 64, they can be used as internet terminals! If you ever go to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago (Highly reccomended) check out the chemistry and physics exhibits. TI99/4s, Atari 400's, and Commodore 64's drive most of the "Interactive" exhibits. Supercool. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Sieler" To: "John R. Keys Jr." ; Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:32 PM Subject: Re: Yo > Re: > > ... > > I have over 3000 hardware items, over 1500 books, > ... > > My wife says if I die before the museum is built than this all goes to the > > trashman. > > That underscores something I posted on last year: > > MAKE A WILL! > > Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the disposition of > their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on eBay", maybe it's > "offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to Stanford"...or ? > > Even if you don't decide now, your will will name an executor...he/she > should be made aware of the value of the collection. > > All too often, I hear about people dying and some computer (or more!) > being thrown away. > > For collectors who live alone, they should make sure *somebody* is aware that > their collection isn't trash! Even if you know no one, and have no friends, > no relatives, post a note somewhere in your house/apartment ... it'll be your > final way of giving back to the hobby. > > (Yes, I have one...produced for free, using Classic software (an obsolete > version of some will program from Nolo Press)) > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 11:44:29 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Radio shows? References: Message-ID: <20000621163937.35432.qmail@hotmail.com> Yeah, the guy who wrote OpenVMS also wrote Windows 2000, so they're the same thing so use Windows 2000 on your VAX 9000, hehehe. Actually you could ask questions on DECWindows, insist it's "Just like Windows 98 but it doesn't crash as much" Possible "Windows" substitutes: -DECWindows -Macintosh System X (Pick an old one, like version 4) -GEM (Atari Power!) -Amiga Workbench (Tell them you've got it on your G3) -GEOS (On your Commodore 64 with a CMD hard drive) -IRIX -SunOS (NOT Solaris, SunOS, preferably on a Sun 3, with X11R4) -OpenLook -The best: Linux or *bsd with fvwm95 (My friend says it looks just like Windows!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Radio shows? > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > "Uh, yeah. I've got Windows 95 on my PS/2 Model 95 Ardent Tool of > > Capitalism, and I'm trying to get a file off my '370 through my arcnet card. > > MVS says everything is working fine, but the 9-track won't mount. What am I > > doing wrong? > > I've got the answer! :-) Here's what you're doing wrong: You're using > MS-Windows. :-) :-) :-) > > Seriously, good example! Expect answers like: "Firstly, I think you > meant to say VMS - that stood for very much storage, heheh, although > it's not much storage these days (snort), not MVS, and no one uses VMS > any more, so upgade to NT on a newer maching your problem should go > away," "I used to have one of those 9-track players in my car - never > heard of anyone using one with a computer; you need to upgrade it." > [yes, I know the difference between an 8 track audio player and a > 9-track magtape drive, but I'll bet they won't]. Also, expect to be > asked if you've configured Luzedoze correctly on your 370. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 11:49:03 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. References: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000621164411.36780.qmail@hotmail.com> I just realized what everyone is talking about. I picked one up a while back from UofM Property Depot for, drumroll, $1. It looked like the old library terminals my town used to use, when I was little I thought they looked super-high-tech. I've got it running the console on my home linux box, which is mounted in a big COMTAL VISION/1 mainframe cage. At least I can pretend I'm using a mainframe... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 4:37 PM Subject: ADM's on list. > > Bill Sudbrink asks: > > How many {ADM-3A's} are out there, just on this list? > > One here. ADM-5, I think. Similiar looking. No eBay. > > (This was found, hanging above the floor, face > down only by its cord, pushed off behind a > table next to a networking wireharness, One > small island of HW in a building being gutted > just last year. The ADM had been forgotten but > was still running happily. A workhorse.) > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 11:48:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) In-Reply-To: <14670.17129.727489.207986@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay) (Chris Kennedy) Message-ID: <39510E02.26992.3DDE2733@localhost> > On June 16, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > > Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a > > > Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since > > > its introduction. > > I suppose it depends on what you define as "changed very little". '71, '73, > > '74, '76, '78, '82 and '85 all introduce significant chassis changes. > > The liquid-cooled current production engine has only passing resemblance > > to the air-cooled precursors and the transaxle has seen radical changes. > > About the only thing that is really constant about the car is the shape, > > the transmission-in-front-of-differential-in-front-of-engine-layout > > and the organization of the engine as a boxer-six. Oh, and the location > > of the ignition on the left-hand side of the wheel :-) > > Look hard enough and almost every bit has been radically revisited, which > > coupled with the amazing ability to graft in stuff from the 930/34/35 and > > even a few 928 bits, makes for *all sorts* of fun for those of us who get > > geeky over 911s... :-) > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > lot, they're damn near identical. Well, compared to some car makers, who offer new shells every other year, while still 1960s technology is below the different colored sheet metal, Porsche is way conservative ... Still I prefer a new chasis design over colored bumpers (Thats maybe why I still love the CX :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 11:48:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39510E02.9448.3DDE2752@localhost> > > Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? > At one point I was seriously considering a VCF East this summer but time > is too tight unfortunately, so it'll have to wait until next year (unless > someone wants to travel to the east coast in the dead of winter...I know I > don't :) > If someone wants to help host a midwest edition then contact me and we'll > discuss the possibilities. Say, isn't Florida somewhat more easterly than Ca. ? VCF at Disney World ? :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Jun 21 11:51:51 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Any AS/400 experts around? In-Reply-To: <20000621060153.11594.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I retrieved an old AS/400 and a stack of manuals a while back. I believe my manuals cover the CISC 9402/9404/9406 machines. If you get yours close to the point of booting I can look up the SRC codes from the console in the manuals. I also learned in the manuals that IBM included some sort of sensor in many of the models where if excess movement was detected the machine would demand a new system password be generated from IBM. That paranoid IBM plot was supposed to prevent people transferring ownership of the machine without paying IBM their due. Apparently you can bypass the system password for a time but after a set period the machine will refuse to reboot. I don't know for sure if the 9406 had that feature. As I recall that is one of the larger models. I never had the correct pile of twinax gear to get mine successfully booted. Its drives were recycled from 524 bytes/sector to 512 bytes/sector into my RS/6000 220. Incidentally, there is a web site with info on this hardware: http://www2.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?xh=jN7O$Vn32jOgss0USenGnN9332&request=usa.salesmanual&parms=&xhi=usa%2emain&xfr=N Paul On 21 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm now the proud (?) owner of an old AS/400, Type 9406 Model B45. > Assuming that when we managed to let the rack fall on its side that we > didn't destroy it; this is yet to be determined. Anyhow, I have very > little (bordering on no) clue about AS/400s, so if anyone else knows > about them, tips, advice, help, or the like would be greatly > appreciated. > > The system came with about twelve Type 9332-600 disk drives (600M each), > a Type 9348-001 nine-track drive (which is an HP 88780 with a custom > front panel), and two terminals (but only one keyboard). It appears > that the disks and tape drive are differential SCSI devices with > Sun-style 50-pin D-sub connectors. I vaugely recall reading in the past > that AS/400s use a weird sector size that is not a power of two; most > high-end SCSI drives can be reformatted for alternate sector sizes. > > The CPU box contains: > > part feature upper lower > slot number number connector connector function > ---- ------- ------- --------- --------- ---------- > 1 66X4709 3060 16M memory > 2 66X4709 3060 16M memory > 3 66X4490 3055 8M memory > 4 21F5132 2513 processor? tamper seals! > 5 93X2120 2514 ??? > 6 93X2701 2601 50 female tape interface > 7 93X2709 6110 50 female disk interface > 8 46F4141 6130 ??? > 9 26F5028 6031 50 male 50 male ??? > 10 59X4270 6040 25 female ??? > 11 93X2737 6110 50 female second disk interface? > 12 blank panel > 13 blank panel > > I guess that one of the cards in slot 9 or 10 must be an interface to > terminals or to a 3174 terminal controller or the like. > > The IBM AS/400 web site doesn't seem to have any info on hardware this > old. > > I'd really like to get an ethernet interface. > > I got factory-sealed 9-track tape distributions of two different releases > of OS/400, four tapes each. I gather that there's some sort of license > key needed for the software, so I have no idea whether I'll be able to > install it. Naturally when I got the machine the seller didn't make any > arrangements for a license transfer. For the price I paid I suppose it > would be unreasonable to ask them to jump through hoops to do such a > thing. > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 21 11:54:28 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Computers" In-Reply-To: <20000621090313.Y4176@mrbill.net> (message from Bill Bradford on Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:03:13 -0500) References: <20000621090313.Y4176@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000621165428.16899.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I've got a in-good-shape copy of this book, which I enjoyed > very much- If you liked that one, try to get a copy of _IBM's Early Computers_ by Bashe, et al. It's unfortunately out of print, but it's worth having. Also in the same "series": _Building IBM_, and _Memories that Shaped an Industry_, by Pugh. I think these latter two are still in print, but they're less essential IMHO than _IBM's Early Computers_. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Jun 21 12:03:22 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: DEC MUX cables free Message-ID: Recently I came across a variety of DEC QBUS MUX cables, and they are available at the cost of shipping. I have several BC19B-12 cables which go from the CXY-08 MUX to 4 DB25 RS-232 ports. I seem to recall someone from the list wanted one of these a while back. I also have large number of BC16D cables which connect a CXA-16 MUX board (the one without the full modem control lines) to the H3104 8 port banjo MMJ patch panels (also available). Let me know if any of these interests you. paul From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 21 13:20:55 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer models because I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. hurry, hurry step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! www.nothingtodo.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 12:24:20 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> References: Message-ID: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> Chuck: > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to walk > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the very middle of the City ... Examples, especialy when comparing to human behaviour are extrem vulnerable to cultural differences :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Jun 21 12:30:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <20000621164411.36780.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000621102844.00bc7950@208.226.86.10> At 12:49 PM 6/21/00 -0400, Jason wrote: >... my home linux box, which >is mounted in a big COMTAL VISION/1 mainframe cage. At least I can pretend >I'm using a mainframe... Oh man! What happened to the COMTAL ? I'd love to get my hands on a VISION/1 or the earlier model which was 4' tall and had table top for the big BARCO monitor that sat on top of it. I programmed the thing at the Image Processing Institute at USC (source of about 99% of the images used in Image processing research BTW) --Chuck From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 12:30:27 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. In-Reply-To: <20000621164411.36780.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfdba6$63f3cf40$350810ac@chipware.com> > I just realized what everyone is talking about. I picked one up a > while back from UofM Property Depot for, drumroll, $1. Blue or brown? From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 12:30:27 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39510E02.9448.3DDE2752@localhost> Message-ID: <001001bfdba6$63fcf700$350810ac@chipware.com> > Say, isn't Florida somewhat more easterly than Ca. ? > > VCF at Disney World ? > :)) NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 12:33:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <39511897.23191.3E077DA8@localhost> > I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford > to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people > like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my > budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, > Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer > models because I either have one or more, or space is at a > premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage > to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers > +accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org > to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying > this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant > to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. Well, I'm paying some USD 400/Month for storage of my collection. I'd love to reduce the cost, but within the City this is a real bargain - and I don't want to store my babies in a distance of one or two diving hours. Gruss H. BTW: I stumbled across a real nice, almost classic web site: http://www.buckosoft.com/linux/ A 386/40, still serving the WWW -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 12:40:58 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> Message-ID: <200006211740.KAA21717@civic.hal.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > Chuck: > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to walk > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > > While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill > constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody > even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select > some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people > cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the > very middle of the City ... > > Examples, especialy when comparing to human behaviour are extrem > vulnerable to cultural differences :) Hi Hans How about beepers and cell phones in theaters? I think most cultures would consider that rude. Later Dwight From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 12:44:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001001bfdba6$63fcf700$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <39510E02.9448.3DDE2752@localhost> Message-ID: <39511B2B.27572.3E118D76@localhost> > > Say, isn't Florida somewhat more easterly than Ca. ? > > VCF at Disney World ? > > :)) > NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and > kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during > the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). Wooha - no please, thats the most expensive timeframe possible. You don't get _any_ discount flight to FL during the Winterferien. Just the other way, thy charge doubble (at least it looks like). What about mid January ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Jun 21 12:55:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000621104915.00a85ce0@208.226.86.10> At 07:24 PM 6/21/00 +0200, Hans wrote: >Chuck: > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to > walk > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > >While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill >constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody >even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select >some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people >cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the >very middle of the City ... But this is exactly my point. When people say "Gee, 95% of the worlds mail programs can handle HTML so you shouldn't complain about me sending it to the list." They are apply their "local" cultural mores to a "non-local" community. You're Munichens (sp?) when they visit Florida and stroll down the beach without tops are quite surprised when the local authorities ask them to cover up, they are using their local code of ethics in a place where it doesn't apply. The point is that in "this culture" (where "this culture" is defined to be the set of people who subscribe to and read the classiccmp mailing list) it is "rude" to send mail in HTML. So attempting to argue right/wrong based on a technical discussion of the relative market penetration of HTML compatible mail readers is fruitless. Further, discussions like "the so-and-so list is all HTML and nobody there minds." is also not a valid argument to support HTML in mail. --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 12:53:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE56@TEGNTSERVER> > I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to > maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like > John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest > and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually > turned down some of the more popular computer models because > I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also > pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines > as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it > feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of > the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would > one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too > commercial or plaster my domain with ads. Ok... what you said... (in other words, ditto...) plus: I rob Peter to buy Paul... I sell family heirlooms (not yet, but it could happen) I sell items from the collection that mean less now than when I acquired them. I look for one-off consulting jobs that involve little or no work and put a small stipend in my pocket. I know when the yearly bonus is coming, and make certain I make the grade. I eat TV dinners instead of grazing at China Buffet; I avoid the temptation to order a pizza to be delivered; I stop buying grocieries onesy-twosy at the Dreary Mart and haul my ass down to Sam's and get a reasonable price. When I'm really desparate to acquire something, I even go back to making iced tea instead buying soft drinks; I can get a fifth of V.O.B. for the price of a pint of Maker's Mark, so I do that. I skip repairs to the Audi; on this one, the law of diminishing returns will kick in soon. Probably other ways I can't think of right now... -dq From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 12:55:04 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39511B2B.27572.3E118D76@localhost> Message-ID: <001101bfdba9$d4649220$350810ac@chipware.com> > > > VCF at Disney World ? > > > NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and > > kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during > > the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). > > Wooha - no please, thats the most expensive timeframe possible. > You don't get _any_ discount flight to FL during the Winterferien. > Just the other way, thy charge doubble (at least it looks like). > > What about mid January ? Hmmm... It's a harder sell. The wife is a teacher and doesn't like to take the kids out of school. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 21 12:57:19 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <200006211740.KAA21717@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jun 21, 2000 10:40:58 AM Message-ID: <200006211757.LAA09739@calico.litterbox.com> > Hi Hans > How about beepers and cell phones in theaters? I think > most cultures would consider that rude. > Later > Dwight To the point where in Japan you can get (I've read) a small transmitter that tells the cel phones IT is the closest cel - and then does nothing, so they don't ring, can't dial out, are essentially useless inside the transmitter's limited range. Which is the inside of a theater, resteraunt, etc. I want one for U.S. Celphones that will fit in my car. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 13:00:49 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001101bfdba9$d4649220$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <39511B2B.27572.3E118D76@localhost> Message-ID: <39511EF1.16671.3E204D09@localhost> > > > > VCF at Disney World ? > > > NOW YOUR'RE TALKING!!! The perfect excuse! The wife and > > > kids go to Disney World while I go to VCF! Make it during > > > the "winter break" time period (12/23-1/2). > > Wooha - no please, thats the most expensive timeframe possible. > > You don't get _any_ discount flight to FL during the Winterferien. > > Just the other way, thy charge doubble (at least it looks like). > > What about mid January ? > Hmmm... It's a harder sell. The wife is a teacher and doesn't like > to take the kids out of school. An extended weekend ? That's not realy taking out ... You fly in on Thursday, help for setup, and your whife arives on friday evening into the ready organized cosy hotel room :) Err, we are already planing, but who is hosting the show ? Any surviveing orange farmer among us ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 13:01:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE58@TEGNTSERVER> > Chuck: > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it s rude to walk > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > > While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill > constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody > even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select > some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people > cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the > very middle of the City ... > > Examples, especialy when comparing to human behaviour are extrem > vulnerable to cultural differences :) However, one can grow up in a particular culture, only to find out after-the-fact what is considered by *other people* to be rude... case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like riding the bus. So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people (apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. Boy, I'm still hearing about that one from my co-workers... 8D -dq From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 13:12:24 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001101bfdba9$d4649220$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <001301bfdbac$400a2dd0$350810ac@chipware.com> On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It would have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else professional going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could possibly talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 13:16:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000621104915.00a85ce0@208.226.86.10> References: <39511664.3562.3DFEE72C@localhost> Message-ID: <3951228F.10205.3E2E6D3F@localhost> > At 07:24 PM 6/21/00 +0200, Hans wrote: > >Chuck: > > > HTML is rude in mail messages sent to this list, just as it is rude to > > > walk > > > around nude on a beach that has not embraced nudity. So that is the bottom > > > line. We may be HTML prudes, but we're open about it. > >While I agree with your ideas about HTML, this example is just ill > >constructed. This may be rude in your culture, but over here, nobody > >even recognizes such a behavior as 'rude' (Well, maybe if you select > >some RV Park beach ...). In munich you will even find naked people > >cheering the sun within public parks or along the Isar River, in the > >very middle of the City ... > But this is exactly my point. When people say "Gee, 95% of the worlds mail > programs can handle HTML so you shouldn't complain about me sending it to > the list." They are apply their "local" cultural mores to a "non-local" > community. You're Munichens (sp?) when they visit Florida and stroll down > the beach without tops are quite surprised when the local authorities ask > them to cover up, they are using their local code of ethics in a place > where it doesn't apply. Well, we're (at least most) are aware about the 'unusual' bahavior among US setlements :) In fact, I wasn't about to start a fight (especialy since I agree to your statement about HTML), I just tried to point out that some example, as good as it may look in first sight, may be ill behaved. Anyway Gruss H. It's Muenchner (or Münchner :)) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Jun 21 13:32:29 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:47 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com>; from SUPRDAVE@aol.com on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:31:05PM +0000 References: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20000621143229.A5639@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:31:05PM +0000, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and >expand their collections. Simple -- working with classic computers makes you smarter, so folks who collect them are naturally highly skilled and get paid more than the average programmer or engineer. 1/2 :-) John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 13:10:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and >expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D >Basically I take I do mine just like most collectors in most other areas, I buy, sell, and trade. Buying is a LOT more fun than the others, but most of the time I can't just buy what I want, and end up with a pallet of misc. The only thing that really keeps my budget floating is that I don't pay for storage, piling stuff around the garage and house instead. Even a tiny storage room here in Orange, CA costs a couple hundred bucks a month, and then your stuff is essentially all packed away and you can't really play with it. Selling, the logistics of writing ads, packing, waiting to ship, really suck, but OTOH there is a lot of satisfaction from providing people with items they are unable to find and really need. Trading, other than face to face, is my last resort. It is so much easier to list an item on eBay, then take the cash and buy my toys. PayPal is making me a little goofy, as it "feels" like found money, ie much more tempting to spend. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 13:31:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 16, 0 01:08:28 am Message-ID: >[HP82161 digital cassette drive] > >> Serious begging/logic/waving$ only regarding the little box with 6 data >> cassettes, which I am guessing will be dandy in my HX-20. > >No they won't (I have an HP82161 and several HX20s). > >The HX20 uses microcassette tapes, which is a standard created by one of >the Japanese companies (Sanyo?) for dictating machines. Audio tapes work >fine in the HX20, or at least they always have for me. The mechanical >form of the cassette is identical. > >The HP82161 uses a special tape cassette. It's somewhat similar >mechanically to the Philips minicassette (also used in dictating >machines), but it's not identical to it. There are extra notches in the >HP tape to prevent audio tapes from being used. The HP tapes have an >internal mirror for optical EOT detection (like a QIC cartridge). I think >the tape is different to normal audio tape. They are _no way_ the same as >microcassettes. > >I believe that the HP cassettes were standard items at one time. The >alignment tape (which I don't have :-() is supposed to be a Verbatim >product, so I guess Verbatim made normal data cassettes as well. > >FWIW, the HP82161 tapes are hard to find (at least in the UK) (I have my >unit for reading such tapes mostly that people send me -- I have exactly >one scratch tape), so you might well find an HP calculator enthusiast >would like them (and would pay a reasonable amount for them). > >-tony Here is some information off the little hoard of tapes I have. Six tapes in the fitted plastic box. Philips brand, Certified Digital mini-cassette LDB 4401, made in Austria, 8920 440 10101. One has a tape label with hand printed Transport 1.1 and 1.2. None are sealed, but none but the label unit look particularly used. Rewinding one with a pencil revealed nothing special, ie no mirror. The drive has a HP brand tape in it, but that goes with the drive to Stan. If you want a tape, email me and I will work out some nominal fee, most likely by listing one on eBay to see if I am insane for parting with them first, but keeping it nominal for people on the list. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 21 13:42:13 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE58@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation >of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that >flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like >riding the bus. > >So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people >(apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, >far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. If anybody stared, just tell them, "malaria, makes me feel hot" and cough a couple times at them. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 13:50:38 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. References: <000f01bfdba6$63f3cf40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000621184549.35848.qmail@hotmail.com> Grey, looks like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=358409684 But without the case. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:30 PM Subject: RE: ADM's on list. > > I just realized what everyone is talking about. I picked one up a > > while back from UofM Property Depot for, drumroll, $1. > > Blue or brown? > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 13:52:47 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: ADM's on list. References: <001301bfdaf7$5c2fff90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000621102844.00bc7950@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000621184755.14348.qmail@hotmail.com> Last I heard, 3M bought out COMTAL, then dropped them in the mid eighties. If you peruse old Byte and Computer Graphics magazines you'll see ads for the 3M Comtal machines. I've just got the box, it came from Wayne State University's physics department, probably in use for some kind of wierd partical accelerator results imaging, or something. Man, I miss having a minivan... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:30 PM Subject: Re: ADM's on list. > At 12:49 PM 6/21/00 -0400, Jason wrote: > >... my home linux box, which > >is mounted in a big COMTAL VISION/1 mainframe cage. At least I can pretend > >I'm using a mainframe... > > Oh man! What happened to the COMTAL ? I'd love to get my hands on a > VISION/1 or the earlier model which was 4' tall and had table top for the > big BARCO monitor that sat on top of it. I programmed the thing at the > Image Processing Institute at USC (source of about 99% of the images used > in Image processing research BTW) > > --Chuck > > From transit at lerctr.org Wed Jun 21 14:10:50 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation > >of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that > >flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like > >riding the bus. Tell me about it. When I was a kid (early 70's), we dressed up in church clothes to fly across country. Nowadays, you can get the same kind of folks that the "No Greyhound in the Amtrak Station" people complain ....not much though. Never really had a problem with other passengers on a plane, train, or (intercity) bus, personally. > > > >So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people > >(apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, > >far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. > > If anybody stared, just tell them, "malaria, makes me feel hot" and cough a > couple times at them. Or, Ebola, makes me feel hot...:-) > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 21 14:43:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: Did you see... In-Reply-To: <000601bfdaf3$a03fff40$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000621144343.3697f39a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:10 PM 6/20/00 -0400, Bill wrote: >I don't really want to start another "ebay good/ebay bad" argument, but >did everybody see that an ADM-3A just sold on ebay for $355 US!?!? > >I have two in good working and cosmetic condition that I got from a >bank some years ago, including the little panels and screws that cover >the option dip switches. I alos have docs. How many more are out there, >just on this list? I have one. I found about 20 more in a surplus place last year and offered them here on the CC list for the cost of shipping and a little pocket change but no one was interested. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 21 15:23:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000621152323.4f87c8fa@mailhost.intellistar.net> Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does read it briefly. Joe From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 21 13:28:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <001301bfdbac$400a2dd0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is > coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the > west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It would > have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else > professional > going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could possibly > talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? Bill, just for you, I'll check the schedules for the convention centers in the area and see what's cooking for that timeframe :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcruse at acm.org Wed Jun 21 16:36:30 2000 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: HTML in mail References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000616141255.00c04800@208.226.86.10> <4.3.2.7.2.20000621104915.00a85ce0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3951355E.1F6175B7@acm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/dbdca54d/attachment-0001.html From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Jun 21 14:33:49 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <20000621.144642.-296773.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I get an allowance. All of my computer-related purchases come out of that, except if it's something for my wife's machine, in which case it comes out of our general budget (which doesn't really exist, but we pretend). I'm not aquiring many systems these days; I'm trying to concentrate on getting the systems I have now in some decent shape-- so mostly parts and docs, and junk. Since most of the systems I have are not considered 'investment grade', I can still get most of what I need pretty cheaply (MFM drives-- $1, for example). It gets expensive when I have to buy a part that's still used alot in the 'mainstream' (SCSI CD-ROM's, for example). Almost all of my machines occupy my basement-- the rest occupy a small corner of my otherwise full garage. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jun 21 14:52:42 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: <3951355E.1F6175B7@acm.org> from "Mike Cruse" at Jun 21, 2000 02:36:30 PM Message-ID: <200006211952.PAA29362@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Mike Cruse once stated: > > > Your HTML was bloated, there is no reason for the
tags (let the browser set the line length, especially since you used
. But in browsing the archives I have of this group, I present the following the last time this topic came up. Eat and enjoy. From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 15:10:31 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:50 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <20000621.144642.-296773.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <200006212010.NAA21919@civic.hal.com> Hi Being single and owning my own home helps. I'm still in the early stages and haven't considered larger machines. My IMSAI and NIC-80 are the larger of the bunch. Sill, I can define what I think are appropriate usages of space. My problem is that I also like collecting and working on early solid state controlled pin ball machines. These do tend to take more space than I'd like. A couple are folded up to make room for more and I have one on semi-permanent loan to a neighbor. If that one ever has troubles, it may loose its space and then I'm in troubles. Old data manuals take more space than the computers. I still have to get some shelves to see what I have. Shifting heavy boxes, full, around to find the manual I need is getting to my aging back. Dwight From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 15:12:00 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5B@TEGNTSERVER> > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is > > coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the > > west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It would > > have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else professional > > going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could possibly > > talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? > > Bill, just for you, I'll check the schedules for the convention centers in > the area and see what's cooking for that timeframe :) I meant to speak up sooner when this thread began, but... Louisville, Kentucky, is an ideal site for any convention. We are located in the heart of United States, we have ample convention facilities (but don't choose the weekend where we have the Future Farmers, NHRA Nationals, etc). We have great entertainment facilities (food, music, horse racing), a riverboat casino within a 20-minute drive, a Deja Vu (and plenty of similar facilties), scenic riverboat cruises (these without gambling), a bridge that goes nowhere but stimulates endless debate. What we appear not to have are these places I hear about that have piles upon piles of old computer equipment. At least, if it's here, it's staying hidden from me. Just a thought... -dq From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 15:12:54 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006212012.NAA21927@civic.hal.com> John Honniball wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:33:05 +0100 Paul Williams > wrote: > > Whoops. Having just been home and checked, I find that my programmer is > > a PP39. However, if you think the documentation for _that_ might be > > useful, let me know. > > Just in case anybody else has one, I have a Stag PPZ > Universal Programmer with manuals for the EPROM and PAL > plug-in modules. The programmer itself is a classic > computer, since it's a 6809 machine with a little built-in > CRT display. > > -- > John Honniball > Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk > University of the West of England Hi John I have a PPZ but no manual. I only have the EPROM module but would love to find out the serial protocals. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 21 15:15:30 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query Message-ID: <200006212015.NAA21938@civic.hal.com> Sorry, ment to send to John only. My finger is faster than my brain. Dwight From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 21 15:19:51 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5B@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > On another note: Looks like my relationship with embedded computing is > > > coming to an end. I'll be changing jobs soon. I used to get out to the > > > west coast for fall ESC which would hopefully "match up" with VCF. It > > > would > > > have worked this year, but... Oh well. Anyway, is anything else > > > professional > > > going on in the area the week before or after VCF 4.0 that I could > > > possibly > > > talk a boss into shipping me across the country for? > > Bill, just for you, I'll check the schedules for the convention centers in > > the area and see what's cooking for that timeframe :) > I meant to speak up sooner when this thread began, but... > Louisville, Kentucky, is an ideal site for any convention. We are > located in the heart of United States, we have ample convention > facilities (but don't choose the weekend where we have the > Future Farmers, NHRA Nationals, etc). We have great entertainment > facilities (food, music, horse racing), a riverboat casino within > a 20-minute drive, a Deja Vu (and plenty of similar facilties), > scenic riverboat cruises (these without gambling), a bridge that > goes nowhere but stimulates endless debate. KFC ? Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Is there no snow in January ? If yes, please go ahead and start organizeing. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed Jun 21 15:21:50 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <022701bfdbbe$54fe89e0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:35 PM Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 >P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the >reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does >read it briefly. > > Joe > > According to my references: 221 is a ROM to RAM parity error on the System board. Has someone perhaps put non-parity SIMMs in that P70? 165 is a Configuration error. Try setting the date and time and running the System autoconfiguration. I would try putting known good parity SIMMs in the P70 and then try to run the Reference and Diagnostics disks again. Cheers, Mark. From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 21 15:28:08 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> Message-ID: <001e01bfdbbf$365faea0$350810ac@chipware.com> > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Arg! Aren't you up past your bedtime? :) From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Jun 21 13:33:06 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000621143306.007b8160@mail.wincom.net> At , you wrote: >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer models because I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. > >hurry, hurry step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! >www.nothingtodo.org > I blew a good chunk of my pension a couple of years ago on the collection, but haven't spent any money since although if anything real interesting comes along I will probably weaken. Our science museum project is at a low ebb since the fellow promoting it unfortunately died. Looks as if the computers will be in my basement and garage for a while. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 13:02:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:53 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 08:55:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/efce94ac/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:13:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <025701bfdb29$24773f00$2f731fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Jun 20, 0 09:33:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/17d7e5c0/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:16:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 20, 0 10:59:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/c7573b1e/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:23:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 21, 0 00:10:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/b84b49a2/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:26:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Blinking lights hidden In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 21, 0 00:23:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/1b51f346/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 14:35:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at Jun 21, 0 11:25:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/aeb0924b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 15:27:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/ab34cae4/attachment-0001.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 21 15:40:50 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name to? (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 15:44:55 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5C@TEGNTSERVER> > > Louisville, Kentucky, is an ideal site for any convention. We are > > located in the heart of United States, we have ample convention > > facilities (but don't choose the weekend where we have the > > Future Farmers, NHRA Nationals, etc). We have great entertainment > > facilities (food, music, horse racing), a riverboat casino within > > a 20-minute drive, a Deja Vu (and plenty of similar facilties), > > scenic riverboat cruises (these without gambling), a bridge that > > goes nowhere but stimulates endless debate. > > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Better than Kentucky Fried Computers... but we have those, too. 8D > Is there no snow in January ? > If yes, please go ahead and start organizeing. Doug, having previously thought he was standing in a row of assembled veterans of olf hardware, suddenly finds everyone has taken a strategic step backwards, leaving him the leader! I could help with some logisitic details, but organizing something like this is currently beyond my 43-year old competence. To answer the other question, we had snow in January 2000, the first in quite some time. Usually it just rains all winter. It also snowed on Christmas Day, again, the first since perhaps 1977/78. I will make inquiries to the convention & tourism bureau as to the schedule of other conventions. Horse Racing is on vacation in January, however, in case anyone had their heart set on it. -doug q From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Jun 21 16:46:27 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <001001bfdbca$27c100a0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> 165 Systems options not set - (Run Setup) - Card ID mismatch 221 ROM to RAM copy error Run the reference disk and see if that fixes it. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, 22 June 2000 5:38 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 >P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the >reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does >read it briefly. > > Joe > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 21 16:52:41 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 Message-ID: <200006212053.PAA54706@opal.tseinc.com> In my situations, incompatible memory usually posts a 225 or 221, but hard to say what's happening here. The 165 comes up usually because the .adf file for an installed adaptor card is missing. That will need to be cleared before the computer will boot from the hard drive. The P70/75 had issues with the floppy drive since it's mounted vertically but hopefully wont be a problem here. try using a cleaning disk on it. goto http://members.aol.com/mcapage0 choosing the PS2 area and download peter's adaptor card ID disk. any ps2 should boot that disk. Another thing i've noticed is dont access newly created reference disks on win9x machines. Ive discovered that sometimes doing a DIR on them renders them unbootable for some reason. have fun with that P70. it's a neat machine. www.nothingtodo.org In a message dated Wed, 21 Jun 2000 4:34:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Mark Gregory" writes: << -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:35 PM Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 >P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the >reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does >read it briefly. > > Joe > > According to my references: 221 is a ROM to RAM parity error on the System board. Has someone perhaps put non-parity SIMMs in that P70? 165 is a Configuration error. Try setting the date and time and running the System autoconfiguration. I would try putting known good parity SIMMs in the P70 and then try to run the Reference and Diagnostics disks again. Cheers, Mark. >> From r.stek at snet.net Wed Jun 21 15:53:55 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: N* HD controller / drive Message-ID: Ia there anyone out there who has a NorthStar HD controller and/or compatible drive they are willing to part with? I have been looking to add one to my Horizon but haven't found anything. I have a fair number of S-100 boards and other goodies I'm illing to trade. I would even (shudder!) pay cash if I had to. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Jun 21 15:59:56 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, the 2900 databook is copyrighted as well... Most companies don't seem > to mind people copying their data sheets (after all, it sells their > chips!), but it doesn't mean you can scan an post a copy of the databook > without checking first. You are, of course, correct. Therefore, I have just called AMD to ask for permission to redistribute this databook. The person I spoke to said that she didn't think it would be a problem, but is going to try to get someone at AMD to send me an e-mail or letter confirming this. --Pat. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 16:04:48 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5D@TEGNTSERVER> > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > KFC ? > > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > change its name to? > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) Processor Technology? Are you selling a SOL for $100? Hell, I was intending on selling an unfinished moitherboard for that price... and a complete set of docs for more... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 21 16:13:43 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5E@TEGNTSERVER> > Skimming through the databook again, I've found a little more > info on the Am2900 learning/evaluation kit. While I'd really like to lay my hands on one of these, I suppose if I wanted to get daring, I could just pull the ROMs from the Prime and burn my own (The Prime CPUs were built using the AM2900 family; some models had a writable control store; not my 2455, of course). In case anyone wonders why... it would be really cool to spend five years trying to redesign the Prime CPUs to eliminate the bugs that plagued so many of us for so long... Not much market for them, of course... -dq From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 21 16:17:18 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: Dranetz 626 Manual Message-ID: ...Header pretty much says it all. Just nabbed a Dranetz 626 recording power disturbance monitor and got no docs with it... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 21 16:20:37 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name > to? > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 21 16:35:43 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3950EEDF.10963.1A1052C@localhost> On 21 Jun 2000, at 17:04, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > KFC ? > > > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) > > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > > change its name to? > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > Processor Technology? Are you selling a SOL for $100? Hell, I > was intending on selling an unfinished moitherboard for that > price... and a complete set of docs for more... I thought that was North Star. I picked up a Horizon at a thrift with the wood in good condition for something like $4.00 not to long ago. They had it marked as a "big disk drive". Guess in their minds that's all it was. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 21 15:43:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: HP 82161A In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 21, 0 11:31:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1287 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/34b6978b/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 21 15:41:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, James Willing wrote: > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name > > to? > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', > and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko Biloba :) P.S. This was also a Nerd Trivia Challenge question at VCF 2.0 and VCF 1.0e ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 21 17:38:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 In-Reply-To: <022701bfdbbe$54fe89e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000621173825.3e77e6a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:21 PM 6/21/00 -0600, Mark wrote: >> >> > >According to my references: > >221 is a ROM to RAM parity error on the System board. Has someone perhaps >put non-parity SIMMs in that P70? > >165 is a Configuration error. Try setting the date and time and running the >System autoconfiguration. > >I would try putting known good parity SIMMs in the P70 and then try to run >the Reference and Diagnostics disks again. > Thanks Mark. I'll try that. Joe From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000621152323.4f87c8fa@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000621220150.LWLW6272.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:23:23 -0500 > From: Joe > Subject: POST code for IBM P-70 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Can anyone tell me what the POST codes 165 and 221 mean on an IBM PS2 > P-70? The CMOS backup battery is good and I've tried to boot from the > reference disk but it won't load anything from the disk even though it does > read it briefly. > > Joe > 1. What OS you used to create this ref disk? Reason: If you "look" at that disk after creation with exploder in win9x, ref disk sector that all PS/2 post bios looks for is ruined. Solution: create that disk again and at completion, eject NOW without even looking at it! 2. 165 is CMOS setting error, it needs set again with that ref disk. 3. 221 is memory error type problem. Might need to clear the CMOS again then rerun ref disk. If not, motherboard needs to be replaced. Which I happen to have one (for P70, 20MHz version) that works. Wizard From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 17:31:44 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <20000621223144.78666.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford >to maintain and >expand their collections. Especially >people like John R. Keys. 8-D >Basically I take money out >of my budgest and buy something when it strikes >me. >Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more >popular computer >models because I either have one or >more, or space is at a premium. I also >pay monthly for >small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm > >reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it >feasible to start a >non-profit org to help pay for some >of the costs one incurs while enjoying >this hobby or how >would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become > >too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. Most of my finds about, and buy, for that matter, either through contacts on the internet or through a local thrift store (pickings have been pretty slim lately :( ). ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 21 17:32:23 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: (Fwd) VAX 11/750 Message-ID: <3950FC27.18651.1D4E68A@localhost> Well I'd LOVE to have this but can't arrange it right now so if anyone is interested please contact the person below. Damn, and I so want to play with VMS. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Send reply to: "Lopez-Stickney" From: "Lopez-Stickney" Subject: VAX 11/750 Date sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:33:56 -0400 We have a VAX 11/750 system for sale (or trade) in Central Ohio. It includes the disk drive, printer, a DECwriter, manuals (boxes!!), and a variety of software. This lot fills a full-size Chevy van. If possible, the preference is to sell the whole thing. estickney ------- End of forwarded message ------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 21 17:50:07 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: HTML in mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >case in point: I haven't flown much, but ever since deregulation > >of the airlines over hear, I've had numberous people tell me that > >flying didn't have the prestige it once did; instead, it is like > >riding the bus. > > > >So on one particular flight out of San Juan where most people > >(apparantly) were complaining it was too cold, it was, for me, > >far too hot, and I removed my shirt. Only my shirt. > > If anybody stared, just tell them, "malaria, makes me feel hot" and cough a > couple times at them. And order a couple of rounds of gin and tonic from the steward(ess?). - don From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 21 18:01:36 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <3.0.5.32.20000621143306.007b8160@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <39514950.EECE3697@rain.org> > >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and > expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be given) quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a storage space, but rather keep everything here at the house/garage/backporch/backyard/... From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 21 18:03:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1 In-Reply-To: <39513F87.28354.3E9F9498@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > KFC ? > Kentucky Festival of ol' Computers ? > > :)) (I know it's a lamer, I just cundn't relist ... low willpower) Nothing wrong with your willpower, Hans. It is your won'tpower that seems to be in short supply :) - don From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 21 18:10:31 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 References: Message-ID: <39514B67.AC9840B8@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, James Willing wrote: > > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name > > > to? > > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > > > Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', > > and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. > > Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer > is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko > Biloba :) Sellam, I can't believe you, of all people, also came up with the wrong answer. Everyone knows that the Northstar Horizon is not the name of the company but the name of a computer put out by this company :). Another piece of trivia: a friend of mine had Kentucky Fried Computers as one of his accounts. He gave me a bunch of photos he took of the storefronts for some of his accounts. I was *really* hoping to see one of KFC, but no such luck. From cube1 at home.com Wed Jun 21 19:07:08 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <20000620175810.5396.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000621185539.05dbdb90@cirithi> There is an alternative. Before Infocom was even formed, a DEC Field Engineer person (I think fondly known as "The Translator") translated the original MDL (pronounced "muddle") (which predates ZIL) into FORTRAN. The game was known as "Dungeon" at that time. (It was known as Zork before that and after that). See http://www.csd.uwo.ca/Infocom/dungeon.html for a good history. In fact, you can take the data files that are in the FORTRAN version on that site, combine them (being careful to set up DTEXT.DAT as a fixed length 80 byte record file) with the VAX port available from http://www.montagar.com/freeware/DUNGEON/ (the data files on the Montagar site are, unfortunately, currently corrupted) and have a running port of Dungeon on a VAX. I did this just this past weekend. The version that was originally ported to the PDP-11 in FORTRAN was submitted to DECUS. I played it under RSX-11 on a PDP-11/23 at one point, and have a copy on an RSX-11 pack that, last I tried it a few years ago, still worked. (Requests will currently be sent off to /dev/null -- too busy. 8-) ). Unfortunately, the DECUS archive at http://www.decus.org/software/index.shtml does not seem to be currently available. Playing one of these older versions would suit the vintage of your PDP-11 better, IMHO, than running one of the later Infocom ZIL version (even though those might be closer to the original source). Jay Jaeger At 05:58 PM 6/20/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote >In the early-to-mid 1980s, Infocom used to offer a bunch of their games >for the PDP-11. Naturally I didn't get my first -11 until after that. >If anyone has a copy of Zork (or the other games) for the -11, I'd >certainly love to get a copy. > >The -11 processor would do a good job of implementing the Z-machine. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From cube1 at home.com Wed Jun 21 19:17:14 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000621191214.05a02f00@cirithi> The 400t, if you have a DOMAIN/OS rather than the HP-UX keyboard, and you have a SCSI DC-600 tape drive, could potentially run this software. The HP 715/50 would not. It would only run HP's operating system, HP-UX. DOMAIN/OS is the operating system developed by Apollo, before they were swallowed up by HP. These tapes were actually produced after that point, but are Apollo software. As others have explained, /dev/null is another name for the "bit bucket". In DOS-SPEAK: NUL: 8-) Jay At 03:50 AM 6/20/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Please read ALL of this message CAREFULLY before > >responding. Incomplete/erroneous replies will be directed to /dev/null, > >Could someone translate this into English? > >Do I need it or want this? > >I have several Apollo boxes, 400t up to 715/50, and I have the 10.20 free >update CDs from HP, but haven't played with them yet. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 21 19:46:20 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <39514B67.AC9840B8@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Marvin wrote: > Sellam, I can't believe you, of all people, also came up with the wrong > answer. Everyone knows that the Northstar Horizon is not the name of the > company but the name of a computer put out by this company :). Ack! You got me. Beet me with the geekstick until I'm bloody. > Another piece of trivia: a friend of mine had Kentucky Fried Computers as > one of his accounts. He gave me a bunch of photos he took of the storefronts > for some of his accounts. I was *really* hoping to see one of KFC, but no > such luck. That would have been cool. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 21 20:49:00 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > > change its name to? > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > Processor Technology? No. > Are you selling a SOL for $100? Sorry. If I had one right now, I might. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 21 20:05:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? Message-ID: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:05 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > >> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and >> expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. > >The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space >to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be given) >quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a storage >space, but rather keep everything here at the >house/garage/backporch/backyard/... > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 21 20:06:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <007e01bfdbe6$daf9aca0$7664c0d0@ajp166> >> > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its name >> > to? >Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer >is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko >Biloba :) Still wrong! It was not the NS* Horizon as the name change preceeds it by not less than two years. Keep in mind I have the NS* MDS-A Minifloppy I'd bought before the NS* in late 1976 and KFC had long since been forgotten. If memory serves KFC was a 6800 based machine. Allison From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:09:33 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: New Finds References: Message-ID: <00da01bfdbee$e95abac0$f0721fd1@default> Thanks for the information and I will follow up on the book. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Barron To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 10:25 AM Subject: Re: New Finds > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 6. AMD AM 2900 Evaluation & Learning kit. A nice single board computer > > > with the box but no manuals. There was a sheet titled "Am2900 Kit > > > Programming Work Sheet". Anyone have more info on this unit ? > > > > [...] > > > > You'll need a copy of the AMD bipolar processor databook (or 2900 > > databook) to do much with this board. And a copy of 'Mick & Brick' (a > > book entitled 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design') would be useful as well. > > I have a copy of the AMD 2900 databook, which I might try to scan in > somewhere (I can photocopy sections out for John if he needs them right > away); someone also recently provided me with a scanned version of the > Am2901 datasheet, which I can share. > > You're on your own for a copy of Mick and Brick - it's copyrighted, so I > can't scan it in - and I'm not giving up my copy.... ;-) Powell's > (http://www.powells.com) has two used copies available for $23.00/each. > > --Pat. > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:20:10 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <200006211721.MAA50523@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <010901bfdbf0$6496c660$f0721fd1@default> I do contract programming, computer repairs, and sale some excess computers to low income families to help pay for my collection right now. I also use a big portion of my regular job income pay for all of this. It's at the point now that I will need more funds than I can come up with on my own, so I will be sitting up a non profit to help get funds for all of this. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. 8-D Basically I take money out of my budgest and buy something when it strikes me. Lately, Ive actually turned down some of the more popular computer models because I either have one or more, or space is at a premium. I also pay monthly for small off-site storage to hold some machines as I'm reaching over 150 computers+accessories now. Is it feasible to start a non-profit org to help pay for some of the costs one incurs while enjoying this hobby or how would one solicit donations? I am reluctant to become too commercial or plaster my domain with ads. > > hurry, hurry step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > www.nothingtodo.org > From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed Jun 21 21:16:59 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 with monitor, up for grabs, almost free + shipping Message-ID: <000c01bfdbef$f2321b60$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello all, First the pictures, then the story: http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300front.jpg http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300rear.jpg I stopped in the local Hidden Treasures (actual name) store a couple of weeks ago and noticed this on the shelf, minus keyboard. I've been a regular visitor there for the last several years, and when I pointed out to Terry, the new manager, that this system was kinda useless without the AT&T keyboard, he told me to just take it, as in free, because it was probably going to end up in the dumpster anyway since no one seemed interested in it and this would save him the effort. The power supply fan runs, and little else. No cursor, no boot, no drive activity other than it initializing, no nothing, although the AT&T monitor appears OK since when I turn off the system I get green all over and retrace lines as the power collapses. Same if I unplug the monitor when the system is powered up. The monitor is powered from the 6300 and has a jumper from the PS to the video board, standard 6300. Here's what's included: AT&T monitor, no screen burn, cord storage in swivel base. AT&T 6300 with: PC1050 motherboard, markings of 0091-0-5-00 REV P4, AT&T 227692 T 10 CPU3 9/84, BIOS REV 1.21, FCC DVR7NICPU3; 8086-2 CPU, memory chips are MOSTEK MK4564-N-15; WD1002-WX1 controller; Seagate ST-225; OLIVETTI Video PCB, full length, markings of CRT 313M; OLIVETTI Bus converter; 5.25" floppy drive; power supply; etc. This system is in very good to excellent condition. The computer is dusty inside, but even the felt feet are still on it. The CRT case is not yellowed. The story I got was that an elderly lady had donated it to the store. I'd prefer to sell this system as it is, complete, for $10.00 plus shipping (2 boxes). If you are only interested in the monitor, $10.00 plus shipping also. If no one is interested in the 6300 intact, then I will part it out, 1.2 x shipping for whatever assemblies you want from it. Please email me off list and let me know what you need. Anyone who wants the whole enchilada gets first dibs. If no one does, parts seekers are on a FCFS basis. I'm offering this to the list because I have enough going on and enough systems to restore to keep me busy for the next 10 years. Yes, I can probably find a keyboard and can also likely fix it, but I don't see anything wrong with some systems ending up as parts donors for others. I'll post to the list on the status of this as necessary. For shipping purposes, my zip is 15301. Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 21 21:25:33 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000621192155.04f2ac80@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:41 PM 6/21/00, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, James Willing wrote: > > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" change its > name > > > to? > > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > > > Hmmm... if memory serves, that would have been 'Processor Technology', > > and by association, the SOL Terminal Computer. > >Jim, I'm disappointed. You, of all nerds, should know the correct answer >is Northstar Horizon. It's time to start taking a daily dose of Ginko >Biloba :) > >P.S. This was also a Nerd Trivia Challenge question at VCF 2.0 and VCF >1.0e ;) Yeah... I'm properly embarrassed... It struck me about an hour or so later... (d'oh!) Teach me to try to remember trivia when I'm trying to recover from traveling to a weekend wedding... Did not sound quite right... Guess I clicked into "Jeopardy" mode and just locked on the 'wood' part... B^{ -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:34:29 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: New Finds References: Message-ID: <01d401bfdbf2$64e103e0$f0721fd1@default> Boy - Thanks for all the information and I have printed it out and stored it on the zip. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Re: New Finds > > > > AM2901APC/7829DP; AM2909PC/7811DP; AM2907PC/7828DM Those are the > > bigger chips on the board. > > OK, the 2901 is a 4 bit ALU slice (4 bit ALU + 16 4 bit registers). The > 2909 is a 4 bit control store address sequencer. The 2907 is a bus > transceiver/latch chip (and is thus uninteresting!). > > I have found a single-page reference to the Am2900 Evaluation And > Learning Kit in the back of the 2900 databook. According to that : > > 'The system consists of a microprogrammed control unit which controls all > inputs to an AM2901 microprocessor slice. 32 bit microinstructions are > entered into a RAM in the control unit using the switch register. Each > microinstruction contains bits to control the AM2901A's A and B > addtresses, instruction, carry in and data input. Additional bits in the > microinstruction contol an AM2909 sequencer which generates the addresses > for the microprogram memory. Once entered, microinstructions may be > executed using a single-step clock or using a pulse generator. The LED > display provides access to nearly every signal path in the system. > > 16 'Sequence control' instructions are available, including execute, > branch conditional, jump-to-subroutine, return, and loop. Because this > set of sequence instructions is implemented in a PROM, the user can > devise his own set of operations by programming a new PROM. > > The kit is supplied with 40 IC's, all resistors, capacitors, LEDs and > switches, the PC board and a manual containing assembly instructions, > theory, and a set of exercises. The user need only solder the components > in place and attach a 5V power supply (2.0A rating)' > > >From the picture of the unassembled kit, there appears to be 1 40 pin > chip (the 2901), one 28 pin chip (the 2909), a couple of other 'special' > chips (the branch instruction PROM and?), 36 other chips (all look to be > 14 or 16 pin), some toggle switches, some pushbutton switches and a box > of discretes. > > A couple of things may not be too clear from the above description > (particularly if you don't know the 2900 series). The 'RAM' mentioned > above is also called the 'control store' or the 'microprogram memory'. > It's where you store microcode instructions to control the 2901 (you'll > _need_ the data sheet for this!) and the 2909. The PROM sits between the > microprogram memory and the 2909 and basically decodes some of the > microinstruction bits into the 2909 control lines. Which gives you a > (useful) subset of all the operations the 2909 can perform. > > I hope that's of some help. > > > John Keys > > -tony > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 21 21:53:43 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Mousepad $71 Message-ID: <029701bfdbf5$155c3c60$f0721fd1@default> Did anyone else see the NeXT mousepad that sold for $71 on ebay at 355310479 ? Now I feel ok I'm not the one who is crazy. John Keys From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 21 22:00:46 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> ????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than plain text? allisonp wrote: > > Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > > > >> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and > >> expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. > > > >The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space > >to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be > given) > >quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a > storage > >space, but rather keep everything here at the > >house/garage/backporch/backyard/... > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Jun 21 22:12:11 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000621185539.05dbdb90@cirithi>; from cube1@home.com on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:07:08PM -0500 References: <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> <20000620145145.7673.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> <20000620175810.5396.qmail@brouhaha.com> <4.3.1.2.20000621185539.05dbdb90@cirithi> Message-ID: <20000621231211.A7162@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:07:08PM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: >The version that was originally ported to the PDP-11 in FORTRAN was >submitted to DECUS. I played it under RSX-11 on a PDP-11/23 at one point, >and have a copy on an RSX-11 pack that, last I tried it a few years ago, >still worked. (Requests will currently be sent off to /dev/null -- too >busy. 8-) ). I'm surprised this isn't kicking around the net some place. Well I've got an executable+data files for RT-11 on an 8" floppy (or two) somewhere, if anyone wants a copy and it isn't already on an FTP site somewhere, drop me a line. >Playing one of these older versions would suit the vintage of your PDP-11 >better, IMHO, than running one of the later Infocom ZIL version (even >though those might be closer to the original source). I dunno, I'm so tickled by the idea of someone seriously trying to sell games for the PDP-11 that I'm certainly willing to forgive a 5-10 year difference... It's *all* ancient history by now anyway. And it was certainly a nice fit, I remember one of my roommates having trouble solving a puzzle in one of the games because his C64 couldn't display backslashes correctly, no problem on a VT52 though, and the speed was a lot better. John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 21 22:37:53 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000619204300.05e1b790@cirithi> Message-ID: Firstly, Wow! Thanks for making this softwre available! On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Jay Jaeger wrote: > 1. Has an HP/Apollo Domain machine (proof required, including node-id, > preference would be a picture), As my DN3500's color monitor just displays scrolling jumbled text, I managed to use a terminal as a console a while back. However, tonight, I attempted this again, and, nothing appears on the monitor's screen, no matter what baud rate I try or what position that little toggle switch is set to. The video board is still out of the computer. The system apears to be alive to some extent, as the hard drive begins doing something after a short while. Not sure what I'm doing differentlt now than before, but I guess I need to get something to appear on the console terminal in order to get the node-id. The last time I tried getting the system to work, I had no passwords, and had tried following the info. in the FAQ for breaking in, but was unsuccessful. Any ideas? I'd really like to get this system working. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Jun 21 22:41:39 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: DECassetes and HPIL/HPIB available Message-ID: NOTE: I am currently busy and will probably not reply promptly to email. To those already waiting for replies on other things, my apologies; I'll respond as soon as I get spare time. I have 200 DECassettes (TU-60 tapes) on hand; I want to keep a few in case I ever get a TU-60, but would like the others to find good homes. They are 'new' in sealed bags (though as they are obviously old magnetic media and I don't know how they have been stored, this is no guarantee they will be usable). Ideally I would like to trade the lot for something else interesting. The things I'm looking for that a TU-60 owner would be most likely to have available are an RL11 and RL02 packs, but if you want the tapes and have anything else to go, consider making an offer. Failing that, the tapes will be available for sale, to TU-60 users only, at some price not far above shipping cost. I also have a number of (used) HP-IL to HP-IB interfaces (HP 82169A) available. -- Kevin Schoedel From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 22:59:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: Zork on Apple II, wanted for PDP-11 (was Re: Thrift Store find: Apple IIgs) Message-ID: <20000622035948.12522.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay Jaeger wrote: > There is an alternative. Before Infocom was even formed, a DEC Field > Engineer person (I think fondly known as "The Translator") translated the > original MDL (pronounced "muddle") (which predates ZIL) into FORTRAN. Bob Supnik. He and I have worked together on his line of PDP emulator programs. I helped find a bug with the rp driver that surfaced when trying to run 2.9BSD on an emulated PDP-11. There was a poorly documented feature that writing to a read-only register would instigate an interrupt that was a critical feature of the device probing facet of the BSD startup sequence, but that is another story. > Playing one of these older versions would suit the vintage of your PDP-11 > better, IMHO, than running one of the later Infocom ZIL version (even > though those might be closer to the original source). True, but cooler than _that_ is to run *commercial* game software for the PDP-11. I've run the FORTRAN version on various ancient DEC machines. it's the version that is data-file-compatible with the later products that I really want to play with. -ethan (translator of the MDL sources to Inform - Grab a copy at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/zdungeon/ ) ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 23:03:05 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: (Fwd) VAX 11/750 Message-ID: <20000622040305.10196.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> What is this HTML garbage?!? I'm responding to this over Yahoo and I'm stuck in this applet that wants to format my mail for me. :-P Anyway; I'm in Columbus and have already responded to this guy. I already have a couple of 11/750s (8Mb and 12Mb w/ various disks), so I'm not interested in shelling out a lot of coin for another, but I'll see what he wants for it before I decide what to do. -ethan David Williams wrote: Well I'd LOVE to have this but can't arrange it right now so if anyone is interested please contact the person below. Damn, and I so want to play with VMS. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Send reply to: "Lopez-Stickney" From: "Lopez-Stickney" Subject: VAX 11/750 Date sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:33:56 -0400 We have a VAX 11/750 system for sale (or trade) in Central Ohio. It includes the disk drive, printer, a DECwriter, manuals (boxes!!), and a variety of software. This lot fills a full-size Chevy van. If possible, the preference is to sell the whole thing. estickney Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000621/80747edc/attachment-0001.html From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed Jun 21 23:51:33 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE5E@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000201bfdc05$89a36fc0$54e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> While I'd really like to lay my hands on one of these, I -> suppose if I wanted to get daring, I could just pull the -> ROMs from the Prime and burn my own (The Prime CPUs were -> built using the AM2900 family; Same as all the Microdata systems. Wasn't Prime also Pick based systems? -> In case anyone wonders why... it would be really cool to -> spend five years trying to redesign the Prime CPUs to -> eliminate the bugs that plagued so many of us for so long... If you don't want bugs, why not just collect Microdata systems d8^) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 00:20:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:54 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: ????????? is a good question! I saw it in 'elm' tonite first, acting wierd, showing up as MIME. However, under Eudora Pro/Mac, it's just a plain message. I don't know unless 'elm' is going by something in the following: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zane >????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. >What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than >plain text? > >allisonp wrote: >> >> Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From nabil at spiritone.com Thu Jun 22 00:47:36 2000 From: nabil at spiritone.com (Aaron Nabil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: DECassetes and HPIL/HPIB available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > NOTE: I am currently busy and will probably not reply promptly to email. > To those already waiting for replies on other things, my apologies; I'll > respond as soon as I get spare time. > > I have 200 DECassettes (TU-60 tapes) on hand; I want to keep a few in > case I ever get a TU-60, but would like the others to find good homes. > They are 'new' in sealed bags (though as they are obviously old magnetic > media and I don't know how they have been stored, this is no guarantee > they will be usable). I have a TU-60, and many what appear to be either RL01 or RL02 packs, but I don't have either drive. I'd like your cassettes. I'll look to see if I have an RL11, but I doubt that I do. -- Aaron Nabil From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 22 02:02:12 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: Re: NCR model 3401 class 5451 (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <14673.47604.204221.578791@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > ps margin: +5%/normal/-5% > > > > What's a ps margin switch for? > > Power Supply Margin testing, I guess. Basically it runs the PSU (+5V > line, probably) at 5% over or under the 'right' value. If you have an > intermittant fault to trace, this may make it appear permanently so you > can track it down. Similarly, a machine that fails on either of the > margin settings is likely to _become_ unreliable even at the normal > voltage, so you can catch errors during preventive maintenance. Interestingly, both the Cray J90 and the YMP-EL (and possibly other models as well) have +- margin switches for their power regulators accessible on their front panels. -Dave McGuire From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 02:17:02 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> Message-ID: <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin" To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 12:30 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > ????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. > What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than > plain text? I see your msgs in a stretched font. Quite different from all the others. In the headers of your msg, we see:- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Others are:- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (From a Unix box I think) or Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" (Another Outlook User) >From one of my msgs (Outlook Express) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In short, your mailer is using an oddbod charset. If you are using Outlook or Outlook Express, have a look at Format Encoding. In the top toolbar when you are writing or replying to a msg. It will be set to user-defined. Set it to Western European (Windows) and it will revert to ISO-8859-1 which seems to be straight ASCII. BTW Allison, when you replied, your mailer switched to the same encoding as his, mine did too, I had to manually change the format. Grrrr. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From nabil at spiritone.com Thu Jun 22 02:55:49 2000 From: nabil at spiritone.com (Aaron Nabil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: RT-11 reference "cards" available In-Reply-To: <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: 2 of the shorter RT-11 pocket reference guides. Free. Email me directly. Include mailing address. -- Aaron Nabil From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 22 04:14:04 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: DECNA for Pro350 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, I have a old DEC Pro350 standing around here. But I don't have a network interface. Does anyone here have a DECNA in spare? Would be fantastic. Thanks in advance, Freddy From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 07:40:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> Message-ID: Hi, It's not every time but at least very frequent when I read mail from you OutlookExpress(or outlook distress ;)) changes fonts to a larger one. My guess is you may be replying to a RTF or HTML message or have some odd embedded controls. Cant see it here as from work the mailer is PINE. Maybe someday I'll replace OutlookExpress but for the time being it mostly does what I want. Allison On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Marvin wrote: > > ????????? The original message looks like plain text as does this one. > What do you see on your end that makes you think it might be other than > plain text? > > allisonp wrote: > > > > Dagnabbit marvin, you running RTF or some junk like that? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marvin > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:05 PM > > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > > > > > > >> >I'm interested in hearing how others on this list afford to maintain and > > >> expand their collections. Especially people like John R. Keys. > > > > > >The problem is not cost, but rather time to play with this stuff and space > > >to keep it. Generally speaking, I have been given (and continue to be > > given) > > >quite a bit of stuff so acquiring is not the problem. I don't rent a > > storage > > >space, but rather keep everything here at the > > >house/garage/backporch/backyard/... > > > > From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Jun 22 07:45:47 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: > > Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the > disposition of their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on > eBay", maybe it's offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to > Stanford"...or ? Since my only family is my sister, I told her "Just think, one day all of this will be yours". To which she replied "Great... Which dumpster should I put it in?" Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/e05c905d/attachment-0001.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 07:51:22 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Good Morning, Fellow Classicians... A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query regarding those cards I have). It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape drive. Here is what the seller has to say about it: : This is a Digital Equipment Corp Micro PDP11/73 computer : with a TS05 tape drive mounted in a rack. Also included is : what I think is a hard disk unit mounted below the computer. : The front panel of this unit says 'USDC CSS-800 Compact : Storage System'. Also included is a VT320 amber video : terminal. If you look at the photos below you will see that : there is a large space in the middle where something is : missing. I think that there were 2 hard disks mounted in this : space, but they were gone when I got the equipment. I bought : this stuff from the University of Louisville Medical School. : This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the : PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this : is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please : wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think : the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do : from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the : front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test : them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so : it is sold AS-IS. : : Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? Thanks for all replys, -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 07:55:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE62@TEGNTSERVER> > -> While I'd really like to lay my hands on one of these, I > -> suppose if I wanted to get daring, I could just pull the > -> ROMs from the Prime and burn my own (The Prime CPUs were > -> built using the AM2900 family; > > Same as all the Microdata systems. Wasn't Prime also Pick based > systems? Prime sold a subsystem called Information which was more-or-less a clone of Pick, and from the mid-80s on, this may have been its best-selling product (I'm certain it was in the UK). But prior and subsequent to that, Primes were very prevalent as university timesharing systems, and laboratory support systems. The Primos operating system had its initial roots in an older OS they called DOS, which had some legacy from another Prime OS, RTOS, which in turn was a port or re-implementation of Olert/4 and/or SAMTRAN, a Honeywell Controls OS funded by NASA. Beginning with the P400 processor, Prime systems were 16-bit data/32-bit address versions of the Honeywell Multics architecture (which was 18-bit data/36-bit address). -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 08:01:17 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE63@TEGNTSERVER> > > > TRIVIA QUESTION: What name did "Kentucky Fried Computers" > > > change its name to? > > > (hint: I'm asking $100 with local pickup for one of their > > > post-namechange computers with the wood in good condition) > > Processor Technology? > No. > > Are you selling a SOL for $100? > Sorry. If I had one right now, I might. I'm still not certain anyone has answered this, so I'll try again... COuld it be a Scelbi? -dq p.s. not looking for a Sol, have a working one and two unfinished motherboards, one likely to go up on E-Bay soon, although I may solicit it for trade here first. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 08:02:59 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE64@TEGNTSERVER> Steve- Any luck digging out that Prime stuff? -dq From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 08:19:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: For under 50$ yes!!!! As to the OS... Long list to follow...;) From DEC: RT-11 RSTS-11 RSX-11 (rare) Ultrix-11 Non-DEC Fuzzball TSX-11 (requires RT-11) FROM PUPS archives Unix from V5-->2.11 or later. To name just a few that were available for that machine. Many have Licenses for use but do check out PUPS as most of those are free. Allison On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Good Morning, Fellow Classicians... > > A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on > E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the > starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no > backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query > regarding those cards I have). > > It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo > appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking > of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape > drive. > > Here is what the seller has to say about it: > > > : This is a Digital Equipment Corp Micro PDP11/73 computer > : with a TS05 tape drive mounted in a rack. Also included is > : what I think is a hard disk unit mounted below the computer. > : The front panel of this unit says 'USDC CSS-800 Compact > : Storage System'. Also included is a VT320 amber video > : terminal. If you look at the photos below you will see that > : there is a large space in the middle where something is > : missing. I think that there were 2 hard disks mounted in this > : space, but they were gone when I got the equipment. I bought > : this stuff from the University of Louisville Medical School. > : This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the > : PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this > : is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please > : wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think > : the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do > : from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the > : front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test > : them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so > : it is sold AS-IS. > : > : > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > > Thanks for all replys, > -doug quebbeman > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 22 08:56:04 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: <14673.47604.204221.578791@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:02:12AM -0400 References: <14673.47604.204221.578791@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:02:12AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Interestingly, both the Cray J90 and the YMP-EL (and possibly other >models as well) have +- margin switches for their power regulators >accessible on their front panels. IIRC, the DEC KL10 model A did too (and a little meter to see how you're doing). I think I read somewhere that K.O. used to have a big thing about margin testing so I'll bet there are easily accessible switches for it in a lot of the older machines. John Wilson D Bit From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 09:16:14 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE66@TEGNTSERVER> Ooops, sorry, was supposed to be private... > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:03 AM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Yo > > > Steve- > > Any luck digging out that Prime stuff? > > -dq > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 22 10:18:01 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <39522E29.9EBE3C89@rain.org> Geoff Roberts wrote: > > I see your msgs in a stretched font. Quite different from all the > others. > > In the headers of your msg, we see:- > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined > > In the top toolbar when you are writing or replying to a msg. > It will be set to user-defined. > Set it to Western European (Windows) and it will revert to ISO-8859-1 > which seems to be straight ASCII. Okay, I just changed it from user-defined to Western. Is this message coming through okay? FWIW, I've been using Netscape for years with no problems that *I* am aware of :). From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Thu Jun 22 10:27:00 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: RE: Yo >> >> Every collector should have a will, and it should direct the >> disposition of their collection. Maybe the disposition is "sell it on >> eBay", maybe it's offer it on ClassicCmp", maybe it's "give it to >> Stanford"...or ? > >Since my only family is my sister, I told her "Just think, one day all of >this will be yours". To which she replied "Great... Which dumpster should I >put it in?" > >Steve Robertson > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 10:44:15 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: Message-ID: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 10:10 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > Hi, > > It's not every time but at least very frequent when I read mail from you > OutlookExpress(or outlook distress ;)) changes fonts to a larger one. > My guess is you may be replying to a RTF or HTML message or have some odd > embedded controls. Cant see it here as from work the mailer is PINE. > > Maybe someday I'll replace OutlookExpress but for the time being it > mostly does what I want. No need. Go into Tools. Pick Options Pick Read Pick Fonts Ensure encoding is set to Western European (Windows) Set the font/size to your favourite. Click Set as Default. Click Ok Click International Settings. Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. That will display them in the default encoding method no matter what format the incoming msg uses. Works for me, it's a Microsoft product, so YMMV of course. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia, geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 22 10:51:17 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: Hi! [..] > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. Ciao, Freddy From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 22 11:29:53 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <007e01bfdbe6$daf9aca0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > Still wrong! It was not the NS* Horizon as the name change preceeds > it by not less than two years. Keep in mind I have the NS* MDS-A > Minifloppy I'd bought before the NS* in late 1976 and KFC had long > since been forgotten. Allison is, of course, right. BUT, because the hint said "... post-namechange...", they aren't wrong. BTW, I also have for sale a post-namechange machine from a company once known as "Thinker Toys". $20 with local pickup for machine plus printer plus terminal (missing keyboard). $30 for machine by itself. HINT: KFC and Thinker Toys were both in Berkeley, and moved south once they became successful. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Jun 22 11:29:08 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: ; from Meerwaldt@t-online.de on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:51:17PM +0200 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000622112908.Z4176@mrbill.net> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:51:17PM +0200, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote: > Hi! > [..] > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact > RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. > Ciao, > Freddy Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of UNIX... Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 11:38:22 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > No need. Go into Tools. > Pick Options [...] > Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and install something more useful that can send messages properly. > That will display them in the default encoding method no matter what format > the incoming msg uses. However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft rubbish, so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient to do anything other than read it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 22 11:40:27 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <000622124027.2620077a@trailing-edge.com> >On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:51:17PM +0200, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote: >> Hi! >> [..] >> > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? >> Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact >> RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. >> Ciao, >> Freddy > >Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? It isn't, but Mentec will soon (I hope) have a hobbyist licensing program for RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Watch the "Hobbyist licensing" link on their "PDP-11"/"legacy systems" webpage at http://www.mentec.com/ > One of the hardest things about collecting >PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of >UNIX... 2.11BSD is the newest version and getting a hobbyist license for it is now easier than ever. See http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ for the SCO license deal (now free). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 11:46:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote: > > > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > > Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact > RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. > > Ciao, > Freddy Ah, 4.xBSD is 32bit(VAX) as far as I know and PDP11 is 16 bit(NOTVAX). When did RT-11 become freeware? Last I knew it was available for use exclusively for the emulator. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 11:52:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> References: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <20000622165243.29321.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the > tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. Yeah, a diesel-powered dumpster with an automatic transmission. :-) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 11:59:51 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE68@TEGNTSERVER> > BTW, I also have for sale a post-namechange machine from a company once > known as "Thinker Toys". $20 with local pickup for machine plus printer > plus terminal (missing keyboard). $30 for machine by itself. > HINT: KFC and Thinker Toys were both in Berkeley, and moved > south once they became successful. That would be Morrow Designs... George should've kept the Thinker Toys thing, and put a hit out on the Tinker Toys lawyers. I am the proud owner of two Thinker Toys products, the Wunderbus, and the EconoRAM IV (hope that's the right model, this was one of those really EARLY dynamic RAM boards; the ceramic gold-topped versions of these chips worked fine, the but the plastic ones had trouble forgetting things when they got hit by cosmic rays). -dq From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 22 11:08:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. YEAH! And while you're at it, throw that shitty Intel box out the window and in the trash! DO IT NOW! You freaking losers! How dare you use any Microcschlock products in my presence! Dang dude, do you ever have anything useful to say? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 12:12:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft > rubbish, so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient > to do anything other than read it. Take a chill pill. I happen to run outlookdistress as I havent time to test several of the candidates. Nominally I post as clear text/ascii but sometime the originating mail is "other" and it's hard to control that. On the ohter hand I also use Pine Half the time... Allison From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Jun 22 12:13:31 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: VT100's and RX01 in Kansas City Message-ID: > In my wanderings I just came across 2 VT100's, one of which doesn't power > up the other I can't get to to test yet. I haven't found the keyboards. > I also came across a "rack mountable" RX01. Basically a single 8 inch > disk drive is just below on the left side of a 23 inch wide 3 inch high > controller box. If there is any interest they will probably take $5 for > the RX01 and $5 for both VT100's and I can arrange packing/shipping if you > pay for it. > VT100-AA case is yellowed with some scuffs. It seems to have both RS-232 > and 20ma connector on the back. RX01 has a 8 inch floppy diskette in it > labeled "VMS 4.7 boot floppy working copy". > > Mike > Wandering computer scrounger From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Jun 22 12:14:18 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > When did RT-11 become freeware? Last I knew it was available for use > exclusively for the emulator. The original poster was mistaken. RT-11 is not freeware, and currently the "freely available" RT-11 distributions are indeed only (legally) usable with the Supnik emulator. Mentec is apparently working on some type of "Hobbyist Licensing", but it isn't ready yet - a link for this appears on the Mentec home page, but currently, it does not go anywhere. --Pat. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 12:15:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE68@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I am the proud owner of two Thinker Toys products, the Wunderbus, and > the EconoRAM IV (hope that's the right model, this was one of those > really EARLY dynamic RAM boards; the ceramic gold-topped versions of > these chips worked fine, the but the plastic ones had trouble forgetting > things when they got hit by cosmic rays). It was the gold eutectic weld that was the source of alpha particles that were the concern at the time. The later problem was Dram timing problems and there were fixes. Allison From mrdos at swbell.net Thu Jun 22 12:36:10 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) Message-ID: <003f01bfdc70$5eddb820$d0893cd8@compaq> There is still a System/38 available in San Francisco. If anyone is interested, please contact Rbatist@aol.com . It works and comes with a tape drive and several disk drives. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 12:39:13 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE69@TEGNTSERVER> > > I am the proud owner of two Thinker Toys products, the Wunderbus, and > > the EconoRAM IV (hope that's the right model, this was one of those > > really EARLY dynamic RAM boards; the ceramic gold-topped versions of > > these chips worked fine, the but the plastic ones had trouble forgetting > > things when they got hit by cosmic rays). > > It was the gold eutectic weld that was the source of alpha particles > that were the concern at the time. The later problem was Dram timing > problems and there were fixes. Ah, I stand corrected... and that would explain why the system was always flaky with that board in, and stable without it (I was blaming the bus). So, knowing nothing about the half-life of the welding material, can you tell me, has the material in the welds decayed enough now that the board should operate in a more stable fashion? -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 12:32:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 22, 0 09:56:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 842 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/9491c359/attachment-0001.ksh From mrdos at swbell.net Thu Jun 22 12:46:18 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Legal Question Message-ID: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a license is legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have any way of checking for one? What is required for running the OS? I really don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. Thanks, Owen From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 12:56:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000622124027.2620077a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622105503.00bd7220@208.226.86.10> At 12:40 PM 6/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >It isn't, but Mentec will soon (I hope) have a hobbyist licensing program for >RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Watch the "Hobbyist licensing" >link on their "PDP-11"/"legacy systems" webpage at > http://www.mentec.com/ > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com If they do this then the market for PDP-11's will go up by a large amount. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 12:58:58 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000622175858.30029.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It was the gold eutectic weld that was the source of alpha particles > that were the concern at the time. No. The weld was not a problem. The ceramic emitting alpha particles was a problem. This was solved by adding or changing the passivation layer on the top side of the die. It doesn't take much to stop alpha particles. The die and lead frame are thick enough that alpha particles from the ceramic on the bottom of the package don't affect the memory. However, alpha particles didn't start to be a problem for DRAM until the 64Kbit generation. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 13:03:11 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: References: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622110217.024aaef0@208.226.86.10> At 06:32 PM 6/22/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >I've never seen a PDP11 or PDP8 with a power supply margin test (although >IIRC, adjusting the PSU regulators to be slightly higher or lower than >+5V _is_ mentioned in some of the service manuals as a way to trace >intermittants). The PDP-5 has a big knob in the back to turn the power supply up or down and a whole procedure for finding weak transistors in the maintenance manual. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 13:03:34 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <003f01bfdc70$5eddb820$d0893cd8@compaq> (message from Owen Robertson on Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:36:10 -0500) References: <003f01bfdc70$5eddb820$d0893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <20000622180334.30095.qmail@brouhaha.com> Owen Robertson wrote: > There is still a System/38 available in San Francisco. If anyone is > interested, please contact Rbatist@aol.com . It works and comes with a tape > drive and several disk drives. I'm still trying to arrange to save it. Mike and I went up there once, and discovered that they have no loading dock. The System/38 is huge and very heavy. It would barely fit on the lift gate of the 15' truck, but it looked like the only way to get it into the truck would be to use a wooden ramp from their doorway (several steps up from the sidewalk) into the truck. That part looked feasible, but we didn't think we'd be able to unload it from the truck. I need to get more local people to help with the move. Any volunteers? I can't offer to pay people for their time, but I'd certainly be willing to buy beer & pizza. I hope to arrange to do it on a Saturday, but I haven't yet found out whether that works for the seller. Eric From sring at uslink.net Thu Jun 22 13:17:15 2000 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Tapes Message-ID: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> Does anyone know where I can locate blank computer cassette tapes for the Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually too long. From: "Stephanie Ring" sring@uslink.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 22 13:22:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? (Sellam Ismail) References: Message-ID: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 22, Sellam Ismail wrote: > YEAH! And while you're at it, throw that shitty Intel box out the window > and in the trash! DO IT NOW! You freaking losers! How dare you use any > Microcschlock products in my presence! You have an Intel box? Eeew. -Dave McGuire From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 22 13:23:19 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: NCR model 3401 class 5451 In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:32:49PM +0100 References: <20000622095604.A8267@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000622142319.A9011@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:32:49PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> IIRC, the DEC KL10 model A did too (and a little meter to see how you're >> doing). I think I read somewhere that K.O. used to have a big thing about >> margin testing so I'll bet there are easily accessible switches for it in >> a lot of the older machines. > >I've never seen a PDP11 or PDP8 with a power supply margin test Me neither, but I was just guessing, and when I said "older" I meant, like, pre-1970. I kind of think one of the Gordon Bell books talks about margin testing and K.O., like maybe that was his thing back when he was actually an engineer himself (i.e. 1950s?). But I haven't read it in a while so I'm probably remembering wrong. John Wilson D Bit From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 13:38:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <20000622112908.Z4176@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Bill Bradford wrote: > Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting > PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of > UNIX... Well, as long as the machine comes with a complete version of the software installed, then there's no problem. The whole licensing issue is pure lunacy. Someone initially paid a vast quantity of money to Some Random Computer Manufacturer for the machine, then, got charged another large sum of money for the software - the OS - needed to use the machine. Both were products that have already been paid for. Let's say you bought one of those newfangled automobiles that's infested with lots of electronic circuitry, including computers with firmware. Now, let's say you sell the car. If that firmware was licensed like computer software, the person who bought the car from you wouldn't be able to use it without being bilked out of a licencing fee from the auto's manufacturer. What if books were treated like software? This is just a way of extorting money from people; it amounts to no more than legalized theft. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 13:40:27 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622180334.30095.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 22 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm still trying to arrange to save it. Mike and I went up there once, Good luck with this! > and discovered that they have no loading dock. The System/38 is huge > and very heavy. It would barely fit on the lift gate of the 15' truck, > but it looked like the only way to get it into the truck would be to [...] Why don't you disassemble it and then haul it away? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 13:46:22 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I can locate >blank computer cassette tapes for the >Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually >too long. > >From: "Stephanie Ring" >sring@uslink.net To long? Sure you waste a lot of tape, but any new audio tape is going to be in better shape than any old Computer Cassettes you might find. I aways used audio tapes with my VIC20, usually the absolute cheapest I could get my hands on. IIRC, I usually used something like 60 minute tapes. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 22 13:46:53 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <000622144653.262007c3@trailing-edge.com> >At 12:40 PM 6/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >>It isn't, but Mentec will soon (I hope) have a hobbyist licensing program for >>RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Watch the "Hobbyist licensing" >>link on their "PDP-11"/"legacy systems" webpage at >> http://www.mentec.com/ >> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com >If they do this then the market for PDP-11's will go up by a large amount. >--Chuck IMHO it's not a matter of "If" but "When". There are some pots remaining to be stirred but the brew is *almost* done. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 13:49:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: >All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me >wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or >RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a license is >legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have >any way of checking for one? What is required for running the OS? I really >don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. > >Thanks, >Owen You wouldn't have a license unless you managed to get the previous owners license transfered to you. Which among other things would require proof that they had a license. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 22 13:54:28 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) Message-ID: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Based on my experiences with System/36's, 8100's, and other IBM machinery.. the thing almost certainly has a welded steel frame. I took all the panels off and the dual 14" disks out of a 5360, and I'll be damned if I didn't only remove about 250lbs., tops. BTW, be CAREFUL picking up 5360's with a forklift, they are very unbalanced by the humongous transformer on the power supply end, my dad and I went to unload mine, and it started to try to take a dive off the forklift attachment on our tractor. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 22 12:53:51 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > You have an Intel box? Eeew. It's OK. It's running Linux. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 22 14:00:42 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Pico rant: I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer purchased software N users to users = N without more liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't own it at the time of sale. John A. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 22 14:07:02 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? (Sellam Ismail) References: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14674.25558.164293.297098@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 22, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. > > It's OK. It's running Linux. Ahh. *whew* -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 22 14:08:58 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:55 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes Message-ID: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo started back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they had to create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. This was called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when AT&T did start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even though Aegis or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better than UNIX, the AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed UNIX, and that became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo and killed basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 14:09:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE69@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > So, knowing nothing about the half-life of the welding material, > can you tell me, has the material in the welds decayed enough now > that the board should operate in a more stable fashion? > > -dq > It was the timing problem... the failure rate (soft) for the alpha particle thing was so low you'd see power hits and other gremlins first. S100 system were prone to bus noise (even with wonderbus) so where a card was installed could litterally mean fail/flakey/works for the same card! Bus termination schemes were used to help but the 22 slot bus was too long and a more modest 18 or 12 slot was always more reliable. Dram cards were by and large trouble as they were most sensitive to timing problems. I always ran static for testing and some systems for that reason. Allison From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Jun 22 14:11:48 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> from "Owen Robertson" at Jun 22, 2000 12:46:18 PM Message-ID: <200006221911.MAA22415@eskimo.com> > All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me > wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or > RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a license is > legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have > any way of checking for one? What is required for running the OS? I really > don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. The OS has no way of checking for one (unlike VMS). However, you might have trouble finding the OS without the license. You will also need to pay extra for the source code. (There may be an uncommented source code distribution which you can use to reassemble the OS but doesn't count as the licensed source.) I'm sure some of the PDP-11 experts know a lot more about this than I do. -- Derek From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:16:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I can locate >blank computer cassette tapes for the >Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually >too long. Look in the phone book under tapes duplicating. These places have everything down to 30 second tapes on THICK media, ok maybe 5 minute tapes, but should be ok. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 13:48:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <007001bfdc5e$521b7170$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: >I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the >tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. This is amusing I suppose, until the first list members start to die. The topic deserves serious discussion. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 14:15:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. > All my transistors say AMD, not intel. ;) Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 14:16:09 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6A@TEGNTSERVER> > Well, as long as the machine comes with a complete version of the > software installed, then there's no problem. The whole licensing > issue is pure lunacy. Someone initially paid a vast quantity of money > to Some Random Computer Manufacturer for the machine, then, got > charged another large sum of money for the software - the OS - needed > to use the machine. Both were products that have already been paid > for. Let's say you bought one of those newfangled automobiles that's > infested with lots of electronic circuitry, including computers with > firmware. Now, let's say you sell the car. If that firmware was > licensed like computer software, the person who bought the car from > you wouldn't be able to use it without being bilked out of a licencing > fee from the auto's manufacturer. What if books were treated like > software? This is just a way of extorting money from people; it > amounts to no more than legalized theft. Together, democracy and free enterprise constituted a severe paradigm shift for the robber barons, but eventually, they figured it out. So, if they're going to stand behind every tree on the highway, ready to exact from us a toll for any thing we want to do, then we have to figure out how to travel without using that highway, rendering their strong-arm tactics moot. -doug q From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:17:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: <14674.22909.875529.222359@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? (Sellam Ismail) Message-ID: >On June 22, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> YEAH! And while you're at it, throw that shitty Intel box out the window >> and in the trash! DO IT NOW! You freaking losers! How dare you use any >> Microcschlock products in my presence! > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. Aren't all DEC boxes technically Intel now? All you PDP owners should be getting your Intel Inside stickers in the mail soon. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 22 14:22:05 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of Apollo's OS, or something else? On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo started > back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they had to > create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. This was > called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when AT&T did > start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even though Aegis > or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better than UNIX, the > AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed UNIX, and that > became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo and killed > basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 14:22:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: If you read the license of most software you will find that it says You don't own it and that "you" are licensed to use it. Cars are bought outright IE: they are property. Software for the most part is "rented" for lack of a better word. Allison On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Pico rant: > > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. > > John A. > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 22 14:23:47 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: 5360's can be buggers. We had one take a nose dive off a ramp. They are heavy, awkward beasts. I would not be surprised though if it powers up with few problems when we get around to trying it. They are built like tanks. On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo started > back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they had to > create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. This was > called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when AT&T did > start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even though Aegis > or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better than UNIX, the > AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed UNIX, and that > became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo and killed > basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:12:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622180334.30095.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 22, 0 06:03:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1014 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/ad75378c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:18:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: <03fd01bfdc76$19dc8fc0$4d57ddcc@uslink.net> from "Stephanie Ring" at Jun 22, 0 01:17:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1374 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/9c696085/attachment-0001.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 22 14:31:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com>; from John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:00:42PM -0400 References: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000622153125.A9176@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:00:42PM -0400, John Allain wrote: > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. Well, technically they didn't. You buy the *right* to use the software, and since that's not a tangible thing it's a bit hard to pin down how to transfer it. Most software companies aren't so snotty about taking advantage of that fact, but DEC went through a phase (in the early 80s) where they decided that you couldn't transfer software licenses at *all*, so now we're supposed to be grateful that they relented and agreed you could do it, if you had $300 and a bunch of documentation that probably never existed and certainly doesn't any more. I think it was supposed to work like the New Coke thing, threaten us with something so bad, that we won't complain (at least not loudly) when they drop back to something which is still not what the customers want. Microsoft has been jumping on the same bandwagon lately, unilaterally censoring eBay auctions for M$ software if there's any possibility, in Microsoft's opinion, that the seller doesn't own a transferable license for the software. John Wilson D Bit From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 14:33:27 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6C@TEGNTSERVER> > It was the timing problem... the failure rate (soft) for the alpha > particle thing was so low you'd see power hits and other gremlins > first. > > S100 system were prone to bus noise (even with wonderbus) so where a > card was installed could litterally mean fail/flakey/works for the same > card! Bus termination schemes were used to help but the 22 slot bus was > too long and a more modest 18 or 12 slot was always more reliable. > > Dram cards were by and large trouble as they were most sensitive to timing > problems. I always ran static for testing and some systems for that > reason. I never had the opportunity to work with a machine that was IEEE-696 compliant. I'm assuming you did (Danger Will Robinson!)... were compliant boards reliable? Do you know of any attempts to retrofit compliance onto existing S-100 designs? -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:26:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 22, 0 10:53:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/61af9889/attachment-0001.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:35:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: Message-ID: >Pico rant: > > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. Just wait for http://www.macintouch.com/ucita.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 22 14:23:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >>>>> forklift attachment on our tractor. Now thats an image unwelcome to my brain. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 14:58:45 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6D@TEGNTSERVER> > If you read the license of most software you will find that it says You > don't own it and that "you" are licensed to use it. Cars are bought > outright IE: they are property. Software for the most part is "rented" > for lack of a better word. What we need to know, is who (what corporate representative) was the first person to capitulate to the robber barons by being willing to sign a software license that granted only the right to use said software. Once one corporation capitulated, the rest were bound to follow. We could make that person number one in the Computing Hall of Shame. Hell hath no flames hot enough for that person... -dq From elvey at hal.com Thu Jun 22 15:00:12 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006222000.NAA27075@civic.hal.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Does anyone know where I can locate > >blank computer cassette tapes for the > >Commodore, etc.? Music tapes are usually > >too long. > > > >From: "Stephanie Ring" > >sring@uslink.net > > To long? Sure you waste a lot of tape, but any new audio tape is going to > be in better shape than any old Computer Cassettes you might find. I aways > used audio tapes with my VIC20, usually the absolute cheapest I could get > my hands on. IIRC, I usually used something like 60 minute tapes. Hi You want to use the thickest tape you can. Many of the longer play tapes are thin enough to have print thru. Tapes for phone machines are often shorter. If it is a tape that has screws holding it together, you can always remove and splice the end to the hub. Many places have splicing kits. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 14:28:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 22, 0 12:17:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 328 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/27a62ec4/attachment-0001.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jun 22 15:05:58 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes Message-ID: <20000622.150907.-465771.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" writes: > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of ^^^^^ Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From elvey at hal.com Thu Jun 22 15:13:49 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006222013.NAA27098@civic.hal.com> Mike Ford wrote: > >I think your sister has the right answer. Tell her to notify me of the > >tragic event and I'll bring a dumpster over. > > This is amusing I suppose, until the first list members start to die. The > topic deserves serious discussion. > Hi Mike He was serious. Make sure that you make it clear in your will that you consider the disposition of your collection a serious part of handling your estate. One might even include the threat of giving them the choice of getting it done right or all of the estate would go to charity ( including the money!! ). This often helps. Also, it is a good idea to choose an executor that you can trust to deal with things. You can do this before you die as well. It sounds like the sister would be a poor choice. Until the will's conditions are taken care of, it is as though you were still alive and it was your estate to do with as you please ( lawyers always make it sound like the heirs have some say but a will is a will). Dwight From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 22 16:01:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: OT: Tech Support Fun Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000622160148.0b4f9094@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >A woman called the Canon help desk with a problem with her printer. The tech asked her if she was "running it under Windows." The woman responded, "No, my desk is next to the door. But that's a good point. The man sitting in the cubicle next to me is under a window, and his is working fine." >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Tech Support: "OK Bob, let's press the control and escape keys at the same time. That brings up a task list in the middle of the screen. Now type the letter 'P' to bring up the Program Manager." >Customer: "I don't have a 'P'." >Tech Support: "On your keyboard, Bob." >Customer: "What do you mean?" >Tech Support: "'P' on your keyboard, Bob." >Customer: "I'm not going to do that!" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Overheard in a computer shop: >Customer: "I'd like a mouse mat, please." >Salesperson: "Certainly sir, we've got a large variety." >Customer: "But will they be compatible with my computer?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >I once received a fax with a note on the bottom to fax the document back to the sender when I was finished with it, because he needed to keep it. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer in computer shop: "Can you copy the Internet onto this disk for me?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >I work for a local ISP. Frequently we receive phone calls that start something like this: >Customer: "Hi. Is this the Internet?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer: "So that'll get me connected to the Internet, right?" >Tech Support: "Yeah." >Customer: "And that's the latest version of the Internet, right?" >Tech Support: "Uhh...uh...uh...yeah." >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Tech Support: "All right...now double-click on the File Manager icon." >Customer: "That's why I hate this Windows - because of the icons - I'm a Protestant, and I don't believe in icons." >Tech Support: "Well, that's just an industry term sir. I don't believe it was meant to -" Customer: "I don't care about any 'Industry Terms'. I don't believe in icons." >Tech Support: "Well...why don't you click on the 'little picture' of a filing cabinet...is 'little picture' OK?" >Customer: [click] >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer: "My computer crashed!" >Tech Support: "It crashed?" >Customer: "Yeah, it won't let me play my game." >Tech Support: "All right, hit Control-Alt-Delete to reboot." >Customer: "No, it didn't crash - it crashed." >Tech Support: "Huh?" >Customer: "I crashed my game. That's what I said before. I crashed my spaceship and now it doesn't work." >Tech Support: "Click on 'File,' then 'New Game.'" >Customer: [pause]: "Wow! How'd you learn how to do that?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Got a call from a woman said that her laser printer was having problems: the bottom half of her printed sheets were coming out blurry. It seemed strange that the printer was smearing only the bottom half. I walked her through the basics, then went over and printed out a test sheet. It printed fine. I asked her to print a sheet, so she sent a job to the printer. As the paper started coming out, she yanked it out and showed it to me. I told her to wait until the paper came out on its own. Problem solved. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >I had been doing Tech Support for Hewlett-Packard's DeskJet division for about a month when I had a customer call with a problem I just couldn't solve. She could not print yellow. All the other colors would print fine, which truly baffled me because the only true colors are cyan, magenta, and yellow. For instance, green is a combination of cyan and yellow, but green >printed fine. Every color of the rainbow printed fine except for yellow. I had the customer change ink cartridges. I had the customer delete and reinstall the drivers. Nothing worked. I asked my coworkers for help; they offered no new ideas. After over two hours of troubleshooting, I was about to tell the customer to send the printer in to us for repair when she asked >quietly, "Should I try printing on a piece of white paper instead of this yellow paper?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >A man attempting to set up his new printer called the printer's tech support number, complaining about the error message: "Can't find the printer." On the phone, the man said he even held the printer up in front of the screen, but the computer still couldn't find it. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >And another user was all confused about why the cursor always moved in the opposite direction from the movement of the mouse. She also complained that the buttons were difficult to depress. She was very embarrassed when we asked her to rotate the mouse so the tail pointed away from her. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Customer: "Hello? I'm trying to dial in. I installed the software okay, and it dialed fine. I could hear that. Then I could hear the two computers connecting. But then the sound all stopped, so I picked up the phone to see if they were still connected, and I got the message, 'No carrier,' on my screen. What's wrong?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >An unfailingly polite lady called to ask for help with a Windows installation that had gone terribly wrong. >Customer: "I brought my Windows disks from work to install them on my home computer." Training stresses that we are "not the Software Police," so I let the little act of piracy slide. >Tech Support: "Umm-hmm. What happened?" >Customer: "As I put each disk in it turns out they weren't initialized. >Tech Support: "Do you remember the message exactly, ma'am?" >Customer: (proudly) "I wrote it down. 'This is not a Macintosh disk. Would you like to initialize it?" >Tech Support: "Er, what happened next?" >Customer: "After they were initialized, all the disks appeared to be blank. And now I brought them back to work, and I can't read them in the A: drive; the PC wants to format them. And this is our only set of Windows disks for the whole office. Did I do something wrong?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >For a computer programming class, I sat directly across from someone, and our computers were facing away from each other. A few minutes into the class, she got up to leave the room. I reached between our computers and switched the inputs for the keyboards. She came back and started typing and immediately got a distressed look on her face. She called the tutor over and explained that no matter what she typed, nothing would happen. The tutor tried everything. By this time I was hiding behind my monitor and quaking red-faced. I typed, "Leave me alone! They both jumped back as this appeared on their screen. "What the..." the tutor said. I typed, "I said leave me alone!" The kid got real upset. "I didn't do anything to it, I swear!" It was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud. The conversation between them and HAL 2000 went on for an amazing five minutes. > >Me: "Don't touch me!" >Her: "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hit your keys that hard." >Me: "Who do you think you are anyway?!" Etc. > >Finally, I couldn't contain myself any longer, and fell out of my chair laughing. After they had realized what I had done, they both turned beet red. Funny, I never got more than a C- in that class. >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >This guy calls in to complain that he gets an "Access Denied" message every time he logs in. It turned out he was typing his username and password in capital letters. >Tech Support: "Ok, let's try once more, but use lower case letters." >Customer: "Uh, I only have capital letters on my keyboard." >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >Email from a friend: "CanYouFixTheSpaceBarOnMyKeyboard?" >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS > >My friend was on duty in the main lab on a quiet afternoon. He noticed a young woman sitting in front of one of the workstations with her arms crossed across her chest, staring at the screen. After about 15 minutes he noticed That she was still in the same position, only now she was impatiently tapping her foot. He asked if she needed help and she replied: "It's about time! I pressed the F1 button over twenty minutes ago!" > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 14:43:26 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: "Geoff Roberts" "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 23, 1:14) References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 23, 1:14, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Maybe someday I'll replace OutlookExpress but for the time being it > > mostly does what I want. > > No need. Go into Tools. > Pick Options > Pick Read > Pick Fonts > Ensure encoding is set to Western European (Windows) I'm not sure that's quite ideal. I don't have Outlook here to check, but if that's what you normally do, you might be interested to know that *your* headers show: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit which is ridiculous, because "Windows-1252" is a unique Microsoft non-standard character set (meant to be similar to ISO 8859-1, but with a unique symbol order), and it's also an 8-bit character set which can't be represented in 7 bits without using base64, uuencode, quoted-printable, or similar. I'm not complaining, merely informing :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 14:48:25 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Marvin "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 22, 8:18) References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <39522E29.9EBE3C89@rain.org> Message-ID: <10006222048.ZM22849@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22, 8:18, Marvin wrote: > Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > > I see your msgs in a stretched font. Quite different from all the > > others. > > > > In the headers of your msg, we see:- > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined > > > > In the top toolbar when you are writing or replying to a msg. > > It will be set to user-defined. > > Set it to Western European (Windows) and it will revert to ISO-8859-1 > > which seems to be straight ASCII. > > Okay, I just changed it from user-defined to Western. Is this message coming > through okay? FWIW, I've been using Netscape for years with no problems that > *I* am aware of :). Yes. The headers in Marvin's message said "charset=us-ascii". But you ought to realise that ISO-8859-x is not ASCII; the lower 128 characters are the same but the remaining 128 (top bit set) are foreign-language characters and additional symbols -- ASCII is a 7-bit character code while the ISO 8859 ones are all 8-bit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 15:06:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Legal Question In-Reply-To: Owen Robertson "Legal Question" (Jun 22, 12:46) References: <004b01bfdc71$c6114920$d0893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <10006222106.ZM23524@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22, 12:46, Owen Robertson wrote: > All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me > wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M and/or > RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? Legally, strictly, yes. However, I've been told off the record by two senior DEC staff in the UK that if I acquire a machine with the OS and don't use it for commercial purposs, they would turn a blind eye. > but is it essential in running the OS? Does the OS have > any way of checking for one? Nope. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 22 15:02:59 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: "R. D. Davis" "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 22, 12:38) References: Message-ID: <10006222102.ZM23432@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22, 12:38, R. D. Davis wrote: > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. Well, much as I dislike Outlook (depressed or otherwise), it actually is capable of sending plain text. You just need to make sure it's set to generate plain text (not HTML, RTF, or multipart/mixed) in some reasonable character set, for new messages, AND override the use of HTML/RTF/whatnot when replying. Besides, there are plenty of other Windows mailers besides Outlook; it's not a reason to go off the deep end. > However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft > rubbish, so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient > to do anything other than read it. True, in fact the Merrill Lynch survey I saw on CNN a little earlier today showed that less than three-quarters of people using Windows use Microsoft email software. Since only about 2/3 of PCs (in the loosest sense) run Windows, that means only about half use Outlook etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 15:27:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6D@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 22, 2000 03:58:45 PM Message-ID: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> > > If you read the license of most software you will find that it says You > > don't own it and that "you" are licensed to use it. Cars are bought > > outright IE: they are property. Software for the most part is "rented" > > for lack of a better word. > > What we need to know, is who (what corporate representative) was the > first person to capitulate to the robber barons by being willing to sign > a software license that granted only the right to use said software. > > Once one corporation capitulated, the rest were bound to follow. > > We could make that person number one in the Computing Hall of Shame. > > Hell hath no flames hot enough for that person... > > -dq Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented it, or rented time on one. Kindly take your free software whine elsewhere. If you want to write software and give it away that's your business. If someone else wants to write software and sell right to use licenses that's their business. Personally I both sell and give away the software I write, depending on the program. Zane (who is sick and tired about people whining about non-free software) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 22 15:31:28 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > All you PDP owners should be getting your Intel Inside stickers in the mail > soon. I've got some extras. But the folks around me keep putting them on vacuum bell jars, air compressor tanks, toilets, etc. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 15:32:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > You have an Intel box? Eeew. > > > > It's OK. It's running Linux. > > One of _my_ Intel boxen runs ISIS..... Good point I have two running CPM-80! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 15:36:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Thinker Toys (was: KFC (was: Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6C@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > > I never had the opportunity to work with a machine that was IEEE-696 > compliant. I'm assuming you did (Danger Will Robinson!)... were compliant > boards reliable? Do you know of any attempts to retrofit compliance onto > existing S-100 designs? > > -dq lessee... yes, yes! I've worked with 696 complient, no that didn't completely help the bus noise problem. bus termination could be fitted to any bus and it helped. Compupro and others had backplanes that were terminated and much better but it's only part of a total solution. FYI: there is not less than 4 distinct varients of S100 and they are mostly compatable...sorta. It tended to evolve over time with 696 beinng mostly after the fact. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 15:57:54 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Licensed Software (was RE: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622135409.00d8e240@208.226.86.10> Look, if it were a simple issue it wouldn't hang around. It isn't. Generally, if your only experience with software is as an end user you won't understand the issue. There are lots of comparisons (generally involving real property and intellectual property) that make good jokes but lousy talking points. The bottom line is that it is up to the person who creates the software to decide what they want to allow. --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 16:00:45 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Tech Support Fun Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6E@TEGNTSERVER> > >GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS Ok, true story. Ten plus years ago, in what so far was my last position as a full-time programmer, we had a customer who required that we be able to update their system remotely. The vendor who had failed to deliver their materials handling software on time was using Carbon Copy to handle that update & support function. So, suddenly, we needed to get a copy of Carbon Copy. I wasn't in the loop on that, all I knew was that the boss said I'd be getting this package in the mail, and to install it on the PS/2 Model ?? (one of the desktop MCA machines) that had the modem in it. A few days later, the package arrived. As you might expect, they did not go out and buy a new copy. Upon opening the package, I stared for some time at the first page, trying to imagine how it had come to pass that I was seeing what I was seeing. Apparantly, whoever (at the customer cite) had possesion of the Carbon Copy package, delegated the task to someone who was not quite up to it, but who did their best. I tried to imagine the conversation that accompanied the assignment; without a doubt, the manager handed the manual and diskette to the delegate, and said "and be sure to copy the disk." Because I was staring at a photocopy of a floppy disk. Oh, and page two was a photocopy of the backside of the disk, so at least the delegate in question was complete. TRUE STORY! regards, doug quebbeman From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 22 16:02:44 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes In-Reply-To: <20000622.150907.-465771.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: Yes, I expect it is. It's the only Unix portable I've seen. Very blue, very heavy. > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > writes: > > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of > ^^^^^ > Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's > and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. > > JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? > > I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was > marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. > > > Jeff > > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 22 16:02:20 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501bfdc8d$282bc5c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > All you PDP owners should be getting your Intel Inside stickers in the mail > soon. I hope everyone got a chance to see this at some point in their lifetime: http://www.pixhost.com/pixm/mfrieders/h11-name-plates.jpg It essentially a "Digital Inside" nameplate. No Kidding! Its from a sale of a DEC-Heath-H16 on eBay 3 weeks ago. (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=347019265) John A. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 16:12:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Software Licensing (Was: RE: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to t he Herd?) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6F@TEGNTSERVER> > Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any > understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look > at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you > don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented > it, or rented time on one. I have owned a computer continuously since 1976, when I built a SOL (and I helped finish building an IMSAI the next year that was botched by a physics professor). Of the dozen or so computers I own, two are Windows boxen. My physician told me to stop reading the licences, or I'd have a stroke. The first computer I used was a CDC6500 running DualMACE at Purdue in 1974. I checked- Purdue OWNED the computer, they did not RENT it. >From there I went to a CDC6600 running Kronos 2.1 at Indiana University; I had a computer account for each of my classes, and one given me for donating my services as s student consultant. Additionally, I PAID $$$ for a commercial account so that I could print large-format lineprinter posters and sell them. > Kindly take your free software whine elsewhere. If you want to write > software and give it away that's your business. If someone else wants to > write software and sell right to use licenses that's their business. > Personally I both sell and give away the software I write, depending on the > program. I wrote nothing stating that I was looking for free software. How is it that you take not wanting to be ripped of to mean that I want something for free? The problem isn't that I don't understand the computer industry, it's that the computer industry has been taken over by robber barons. It happened during the 1980s; I recall it distinctly. Dang, I know I'm a prima donna, but if all the prima donnas stay off this list, I think it will get might darned quiet. respectfully submitted, -doug quebbeman From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 16:17:25 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Apollo (was Re: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software Distribution Tapes) In-Reply-To: <20000622190858.60580.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622135819.00d89100@208.226.86.10> At 01:08 PM 6/22/00 -0600, Will wrote: >Actually, Domain/OS is one of Apollo's 3 operating systems... Apollo >started back when AT&T wasn't licensing UNIX for commercial use, so they >had to create their own UNIX clone, which was actually better than UNIX. >This was called Aegis, later changed to be called Domain/OS. Later, when >AT&T did start licensing UNIX, Apollo was smart enough to know that even >though Aegis or Domain/OS, depending on what you called it, was better >than UNIX, the AT&T standard was what mattered to people, so they licensed >UNIX, and that became Domain/IX, and shortly afterward, HP bought Apollo >and killed basically everything other than Prism (PA-Risc). Sorry but this is not very close to what actually occurred at all. I worked at Sun (the guys that killed Apollo) from 1986 to 1995 and for part of that time was involved with a group that picked apart Apollo in order to facilitate its demise. Apollo effectively invented the workstation. (yes there were others, PERQs etc not withstanding) but for the mass market Apollo was really it. DEC did their part with the VAXStations, and Sun did its thing with its workstations. Aegis was Apollo's home grown, everything is an object, all written in PASCAL, operating system. One of its chief architects, Paul Leach is over at Microsoft now. It had a lot of features that were waayy before their time, like memory spanning the network and disks that spanned the network etc. Apollo made at least three really dumb decisions: 1) Invent an OS 2) Use Token Ring as their network topology 3) Staying proprietary and ignoring UNIX Apollo had some impressive design wins, the most notable was Mentor Graphics, however as the Sun workstations began catching on they were unable to deal with them. Apollo also had the tendency to "implement from spec" rather than pay any licensing. This attitude got them in trouble because when UNIX became more dominant their response was to implement the POSIX spec rather than license UNIX. This never worked quite right (similarly the DEC POSIX package for VMS was never truly as useful as "real" unix libraries) Their first go at a UNIX compatible OS was DOMAIN. (Distributed Object Memory Accessible Integrated Network (or some such sillynes) anyway then the bit the bullet and licensed UNIX but by then they were where SGI is now, effectively the walking dead. HP bought them and for a brief time was once again the leading supplier of workstations only to lose that title again to Sun. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 22 15:16:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000201bfdc7c$2a3d5060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer > purchased software N users to users = N without more > liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't > own it at the time of sale. You didn't own it, you were just licensing it. Read the fine print. Sure it sucks, but you can either abide by it or scoff at it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 16:22:56 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Prime 2850 for Sale on E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE70@TEGNTSERVER> A complete Prime 2850 system is for sale on E-Bay, starting at one dollar. Reserve price in effect, amount (as always) unknown. Here's a shortcut to the beast: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=364711731 -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 15:42:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: OT: Tech Support Fun In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000622160148.0b4f9094@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 22, 0 04:01:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2619 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/2c63c5f8/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 16:39:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Software Licensing (Was: RE: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to t In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6F@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 22, 2000 05:12:41 PM Message-ID: <200006222139.OAA03321@shell1.aracnet.com> > I wrote nothing stating that I was looking for free software. How is it > that you take not wanting to be ripped of to mean that I want something > for free? OK, maybe I misread the message, but that was basically how I read it. I'm getting so sick of all the freesoftware BS that's taken over Linux that it isn't funny. That seemed to be where you were coming from. > The problem isn't that I don't understand the computer industry, it's > that the computer industry has been taken over by robber barons. It > happened during the 1980s; I recall it distinctly. Well, basically one Robber Baron, aka BG. > Dang, I know I'm a prima donna, but if all the prima donnas stay off > this list, I think it will get might darned quiet. > > respectfully submitted, > -doug quebbeman This list quiet? HAH! Never happen. Zane From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 22 16:17:46 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <20000622112908.Z4176@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Hi! > > > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? > > Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact > > RT-11 does. It is now Freeware. > > Ciao, > > Freddy > > Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it freely accessible. > PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of > UNIX... Hmmm... Then you should try the PUPS archive I think it is called. You get a license for it for free. Ciao, Freddy From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 16:51:30 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible (Again) In-Reply-To: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Based on my experiences with System/36's, 8100's, and other IBM machinery.. > the thing almost certainly has a welded steel frame. I took all the panels Hmmm, so even if it's made lighter, it's still going to be rather bulky. I just remembered how large some system 36s are. > off and the dual 14" disks out of a 5360, and I'll be damned if I didn't > only remove about 250lbs., tops. BTW, be CAREFUL picking up 5360's with a Wouldn't be be lighter with the boards, power supply, etc. removed? ...ok, well, removing the heavy power supply in pieces, that is. > forklift, they are very unbalanced by the humongous transformer on the power How large is this transformer? I'm guessing that it must be much larger, and heavier, than the ones in my 11/34, 11/44, etc. and possibly not easy to extract if the frame is welded together. > supply end, my dad and I went to unload mine, and it started to try to take > a dive off the forklift attachment on our tractor. :-( There must be a better solution... although that did sound like a very good idea. Perhaps it will help if you try strapping the next one you collect onto the forklift. :-) Well, there's always the attachment used to pick up bales of hay... it probably shouldn't slip off that once you spear the S/36 with it. Ok, just kidding, I'm not into computer demolition! ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Thu Jun 22 17:04:13 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <015001bfdc95$d41f92a0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you expect to have your collection survive you? Or don't you care about it? The main point was that there will allways (I hope) be other collectors willing to take on some else's collection there can even be a public distribution/sale or other for people interested. The thing I'm worried about is about my stuff ending in the trash (160 or so machines with peripherals and documentation) and I've specifically told my wife that if I die she should post a note on this very list and ask for help in disposing of it. She does consider my collection as a pile of junk but she also knows that this is not the opinion of everyone. Actually I am thinking of adding something to that nature in my will. I allways tink that I have time to think about it (I'm 34) but you never know... If you worry and value the conservation of your machines you should take the same dispositions and make sure that none is lost. Francois > This is amusing I suppose, until the first list members start to die. The > topic deserves serious discussion. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 22 16:40:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 22, 0 01:27:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000622/e3f71213/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 17:13:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: from "Frederik Meerwaldt" at Jun 22, 2000 11:17:46 PM Message-ID: <200006222213.PAA08130@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting > > Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I > asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it freely > accessible. > > Ciao, > Freddy NO. RT-11 is most definitly NOT FREEWARE!!! Read the *License* that is with the versions of RT-11 that you will find out on the net! You will learn that it is available with the following restrictions: 1. Only for use with Bob Supnik's emulator (actualy DEC owned emulators)! 2. Only V5.3 and earlier! 3. Only for Hobbyist use! AGAIN RT-11 IS NOT FREEWARE!!! Furthermore, claiming such could damage efforts to get a hobbyist license in place that will allow hobbyists to run RT-11 on thier hardware. Note, the existing Hobbyist License, which as I've stated can only be used with Bob Supnik's emulator, also covers some of the other OS's. It also covers layered products. In fact here is the license. READ IT!!! Zane LICENSE AGREEMENT This Agreement, dated ________________, is entered into by Mentec Inc., a Massachusetts Company, located at 55 Technology Drive, Lowell, MA 01851, U.S.A. (MENTEC), and _____________________________________________ having a residence at __________________________________________________________ (CUSTOMER). Whereas, MENTEC owns the rights to the following PDP-11 Operating Systems and associated layered products (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior) (SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY) and is prepared to grant a non-exclusive license to use such SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY for personal, non-commercial purposes; Whereas, CUSTOMER desires to enter into a License Agreement which will allow CUSTOMER to use such software technology at his or her residence for personal, non-commercial purposes; MENTEC and CUSTOMER agree as follows: 1 DEFINITIONS SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY shall mean the binary versions of the PDP-11 Operating Systems (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior), and associated utilities and layered products that run on PDP-11 computers. MENTEC'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS shall mean MENTEC's patent, copyright and trade secret rights in its SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY. EMULATOR shall mean software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation that emulates the operation of a PDP-11 processor and allows PDP-11 programs and operating systems to run on non-PDP-11 systems. 2 LICENSE GRANT MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in conjunction with the EMULATOR. 3 TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER AND ACCEPTANCE 3.1 CUSTOMER is responsible for obtaining copies of SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY and accepts the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY "AS IS". 3.2 MENTEC is under no obligation to supply SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY, documentation, error corrections or updates to the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY if or when they become available, or to provide training, support or consulting for the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY. 4 WARRANTY DISCLAIMER/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MENTEC DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO ANY SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY LICENSED TO CUSTOMER HEREUNDER, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL MENTEC BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE OR DATA, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE, INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY INFRINGEMENT OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF ANY SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY LICENSED HEREUNDER. 5 INDEMNITY CUSTOMER will hold MENTEC harmless against all liabilities, demands, damages, expenses, or losses arising out of use by CUSTOMER of SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY or information furnished under this Agreement. 6 TERM AND TERMINATION 6.1 This Agreement shall be effective until otherwise terminated. Either party may terminate this Agreement at any time upon 30 days written notice. 6.2 If CUSTOMER shall fail to perform or observe any of the terms and conditions to be performed or observed by it under this Agreement, MENTEC may in its sole discretion thereafter elect to terminate this Agreement, and this Agreement and all the obligations owed and rights granted herein to CUSTOMER shall immediately terminate. 6.3 The parties agree that the termination of this Agreement shall not release either party from any other liability which shall have accrued to the other party at the time such termination becomes effective, nor affect in any manner the survival of any right, duty or obligation of either party. 6.4 In the event of any termination of this Agreement for any reason, CUSTOMER shall delete all original and all whole or partial copies and derivatives of the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY from his or her computer system. CUSTOMER further shall cease to use and distribute the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY in all forms immediately upon the date of termination. 7 GENERAL TERMS 7.1 This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 7.2 This Agreement imposes personal obligations on CUSTOMER. CUSTOMER shall not assign any rights under this Agreement not specifically transferable by its terms without the written consent of MENTEC. 7.3 The SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY obtained under this Agreement may be subject to US and other government export control regulations. CUSTOMER assures that it will comply with these regulations whenever it exports or re-exports a controlled product or technical data obtained from MENTEC or any product produced directly from the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY. 7.4 The waiver of a breach hereunder may be effected only by a writing signed by the waiving party and shall not constitute a waiver of any other breach. 7.5 CUSTOMER acknowledges that he has read this Agreement, understands it and agrees to be bound by its terms and further agrees that it is the complete and exclusive statement of the Agreement between the parties which supersedes all communications and understanding between the parties relating to the subject matter of this Agreement. From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 22 17:16:01 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: OT: Tech Support Fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002d01bfdc97$7311c4e0$350810ac@chipware.com> Not exactly tech support but... When I was an intern at the Social Security Administration, we had an evening "operator" who was responsible for doing database dumps to 9 track tape from a Wang VS100 system. I'm not sure whether he had actually managed to graduate from high school or not... Anyway, the tape drive was semi-autoloading with a permanently attached take-up reel. Each dump was to be done to new tapes, straight from the box. One morning, I come in to find 6 tall gray plastic trash cans full of tangles of loose mag tape. Apparently, the last shipment of tapes we got didn't have end markers on them. The tape wound completely onto the take-up reel, error comes up on the console, he goes over, can't figure out how to get it threaded back onto the supply reel so he just pulls it off the take-up reel into a trash can. He did this to 20 tapes before he finally gave up. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 22 17:15:45 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:56 2005 Subject: Tapes Message-ID: <013001bfdc97$6991d2c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 22, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: Re: Tapes > >Too long? Sure you waste a lot of tape, but any new audio tape is going to >be in better shape than any old Computer Cassettes you might find. I aways >used audio tapes with my VIC20, usually the absolute cheapest I could get >my hands on. IIRC, I usually used something like 60 minute tapes. > The shorter the tape length, the better. Modern extended-play tapes use a thinner nylon tape (to fit more tape in the standard cassette), which is more prone to stretching and breaking with repeated rewind/play cycles. Some older answering machines used very short standard cassettes, I'd estimate about C10 length. If you can find a store that still sells those (even a liquidator selling off those awful novelty "celebrity answering machine messages") they might be suitable. They would also be newer than the 15+ year old computer cassette tapes. Another option would be to shop for a cheap disk drive for your system. In my experience old 5.25" floppies in good condition are much easier to find than cassettes. Regards, Mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 17:24:24 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000622222424.1732.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > Aren't all DEC boxes technically Intel now? > No. Compaq, surely? A reference, I think, to Intel making Alpha chips under contract to Compaq. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 22 17:26:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000622222630.1768.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane replied to Allison: > Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any > understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look > at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you > don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented > it, or rented time on one. And in the days before you rented the software for the mainframe from the vendor, you got the software for FREE from the vendor. Allison correctly pointed out that before some point these damn software licenses didn't exist. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 22 17:46:33 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <20000622222630.1768.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 22, 2000 10:26:30 PM Message-ID: <200006222246.PAA14633@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Zane replied to Allison: > > Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any > > understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look > > at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you > > don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented > > it, or rented time on one. > > And in the days before you rented the software for the mainframe from the > vendor, you got the software for FREE from the vendor. Allison correctly > pointed out that before some point these damn software licenses didn't > exist. > Except I wasn't replying to Allison. I know she knows what's going on :^) Zane From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 22 17:46:41 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Software licenses and transfers] > > > Kindly take your free software whine elsewhere. If you want to write > > software and give it away that's your business. If someone else wants to > > This has _NOTHING_ to do with free software. > > Nobody is denying %computer-company's right to be paid for their > software. And for them to charge what the heck they like for their > software. Or that it should be illegal to make copies of that software > (other than for backups, etc) > > But if I go out and buy a book, or a video tape of a movie or a music CD > or similar products, well, no I can't legally make copies of them. That's > reasonable enough. But if I decide I no longer want that book/movie/CD > then I can give it to my friend, I can sell it second-hand, etc. > > If I _rent_ a movie from the local video shop then I have it for a > limited time that's agreed before I buy it. And obviously I can't pass it > on to anyone else. > > Software licenses, though, are often like neither of those. It appears > that I pay a one-off fee to %computer-company which lets _me_ use that > software for as long as I want, but if I no longer want it, I can't > give/sell it to anyone else (note : I am assuming here that I wouldn't be > keeping a copy myself if I did this). This, I think, is the point that > most people have a problem with. And to thicken the plot a bit further, how about software that came bundled with the machine, and was not specifically purchased by the owner? The OEM can give it away as an inducement to purchase his machine, but the purchaser cannot? Please!!! - don > It seems a little silly that if somebody no longer wants their PDP11 + > software, they can give away the hardware but the new owner can't run the > software, even though the previous owner could have goen on running the > machine if he'd wanted to > > > write software and sell right to use licenses that's their business. > > It is theire business, but it doesn't mean I have to like it! > > -tony > > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 22 17:49:11 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Prime 2850 for Sale on E-Bay References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE70@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <395297E7.8E40E41@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > A complete Prime 2850 system is for sale on E-Bay, > starting at one dollar. Reserve price in effect, > amount (as always) unknown. And, as always, on the other side of the country *sighs* -ck -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 22 18:15:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Prime 2850 for Sale on E-Bay Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE71@TEGNTSERVER> > A complete Prime 2850 system is for sale on E-Bay, > starting at one dollar. Reserve price in effect, > amount (as always) unknown. > > Here's a shortcut to the beast: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=364711731 > > -dq BTW, if you go there, look at tge picture carefully... there is what appears to be a 1200 ft reel of tape in a tape seal either lying on the floor under the 2850, or, God forbid, holding up the 2850 in lieu of a missing caster. Probably a Primos release tape. :-( From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Jun 22 18:19:06 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE61@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <39529EEA.B851400C@idirect.com> >Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on > E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the > starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no > backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query > regarding those cards I have). Jerome Fine replies: Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping, you have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else. BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And bring some tools so that you can separate the components. You will find it much easier if you only need to lift one item at a time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape drive alone can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually handle that easily. > It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo > appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking > of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape > drive. If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will be a great find IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially if you need it. > [Snip] > : This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the > : PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this > : is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please > : wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think > : the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do > : from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the > : front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test > : them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so > : it is sold AS-IS. This part is a bit confusing. Normally, after the "...7 8 9", the system says if I remember it correctly: "Starting system", but that can be modified using the boot options on the 11/73 CPU board - which must be a quad M8190 based on the display. If the CPU board works, it is worth $ US 5 just by itself. > Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it? I think that Allison covered the ground. If you need help with RT-11, there are a lot of us here. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jun 22 18:20:35 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Local Computer Rescue Needed Message-ID: <028e01bfdca0$78bb92a0$78701fd1@default> I got a call the other evening from a person wanting unload a number computers here in St. Paul, Here's his list - C64 no monitor with it - 2- TI's 99/4 black ones - Tandy color computer - TRS80 model 3 - 2- Mac Classic's - Apple IIgs with monitor and KB If anyone here in the Twincities wants some of this please email me and I will get you his email address. John Keys From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 22 19:01:09 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <200006150335.UAA18492@eskimo.com> Message-ID: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. I've started to make copies of these HP150 disks, and since I have a minute, I was wondering why my WinPC won't recognize these disks. What I've been doing to get around this problem is to copy each disk to the HD on my 150, and then copy the new files from the 150 to a blank 720k disk, which my Pentium system can see but this is really tedious. What's happening is that my Pentium system doesn't recognize the format of these old SS 3.5 disks, even though they are formatted with MSDOS (FAT 12 I think.) My Pentium will see the 720k disks that I format on the HP but not the old SS disks. Does anyone know why? Are the old disks copy protected? Or is because they're single sided? I'm curious because I would like to find a better way to copy these disks. Thanks Ernest From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 17:59:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <003401bfdc9d$a5609650$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Zane replied to Allison: >> Do you have any understanding of the computer industry? Do you have any >> understanding of computers larger than your Windows box? Do you even look >> at the licenses of any software you have purchased? I'm fairly sure you >> don't remember the days when you didn't even own the computer, you rented >> it, or rented time on one. I didn't write that but I essentially agree. Consider this you buy a book, you own it to dispose of how you wish (sell, give or burn). You don't buy a license to read it or X many friends to read it. It is property. The copyright means you can't make copies of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell or give away without expressed permission. Software is going the route of, you pay for the media, manuals and support(optional) and also for rights to use under specified conditions as a CONTRACT. There lies the difference. the manuals are property (usually) but the software is provided under some stipulation (even freeware!) regarding it's use. >vendor, you got the software for FREE from the vendor. Allison correctly >pointed out that before some point these damn software licenses didn't >exist. The idea of XYZ Co OWNING the software (copyrighted) is quite old and may preceed the 1960s! At one time computers were only rented. DEC was one of the first to alter that by selling machines outright. Allison From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Jun 22 19:31:41 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Cheap parts available for AT&T 6300, AT&T 6300 monitor Message-ID: <000901bfdcaa$66d5c560$c1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Wakeup call! Haven't had any wanting the whole system or the monitor. It's parts time! Does anyone need any spares for their AT&T 6300? First the pictures, then the story: http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300front.jpg http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/ATT6300rear.jpg I stopped in the local Hidden Treasures (actual name) store a couple of weeks ago and noticed this on the shelf, minus keyboard. I've been a regular visitor there for the last several years, and when I pointed out to Terry, the new manager, that this system was kinda useless without the AT&T keyboard, he told me to just take it, as in free, because it was probably going to end up in the dumpster anyway since no one seemed interested in it and this would save him the effort. The power supply fan runs, and little else. No cursor, no boot, no drive activity other than it initializing, no nothing, although the AT&T monitor appears OK since when I turn off the system I get green all over and retrace lines as the power collapses. Same if I unplug the monitor when the system is powered up. The monitor is powered from the 6300 and has a jumper from the PS to the video board, standard 6300. Here's the parts available: AT&T monitor, no screen burn, nice, cord storage in swivel base. AT&T 6300, made in Italy: PC1050 motherboard, markings of 0091-0-5-00 REV P4, AT&T 227692 T 10 CPU3 9/84, BIOS REV 1.21, FCC DVR7NICPU3; 8086-2 CPU, memory chips are MOSTEK MK4564-N-15; OLIVETTI Video PCB, full length, markings of CRT 313M; OLIVETTI Bus converter; 5.25" floppy drive; power supply; etc. This system is in very good to excellent condition. The computer is dusty inside, but even the felt feet are still on it. The CRT case is not yellowed. The story I got was that an elderly lady had donated it to the store. Cost is only 1.2 x shipping (cheapest way, unless specified otherwise)for whatever assemblies you want from it. Please email me off list and let me know what you need. FCFS I'm offering this to the list because I have enough going on and enough systems to restore to keep me busy for the next 10 years. Yes, I can probably find a keyboard and can also likely fix it, but I don't see anything wrong with some systems ending up as parts donors for others. I'll post to the list on the status of this as necessary. For shipping purposes, my zip is 15301. Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 22 20:00:54 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: your email address at hotmail References: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <002401bfdcaf$2d337dc0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've gotten a couple of emails bounced from hotmail. Could you send me a list of useable email addresses, so I can get your auction info to you promptly. Have you gotten in touch with the guy who's got your manuals? regards, Dick From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 22 20:14:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <003401bfdc9d$a5609650$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622175105.00c094e0@208.226.86.10> At 06:59 PM 6/22/00 -0400, Allison wrote: >Consider this you buy a book, you own it to dispose of how you wish >(sell, give or burn). You don't buy a license to read it or X many friends >to read it. It is property. Sigh. Allison has this part of it wrong, and it is a common problem. The book *is* the license. The contents (words etc) are licensed to the particular bits of paper and cover that you are holding in your hand. When you transfer the paper, the words go with it. You are forbidden from copying the words off the paper and putting them on to some other piece of paper. What you *own* in the book case is some newsprint, some wax, and some binder thread *and that is all*. If you *MUST* use the book analogy, (and it has already appeared twice now), understand how it would be implemented in computers: You license the software and it is licensed (bound) to your CPU. You own the CPU and may dispose of it how you wish, however if you give it away or burn it or throw it away, the software goes with it! Intel tried to make this model possible with their serial number scheme but the market rejected it. So software, unlike books, is licensed to _people_. (or corporations) because people and corporations like to be able to change their CPU and not bother with relicensing their software. If you throw away the corporation then the license gets thrown away too, just like if you had thrown away the book. > The copyright means you can't make copies >of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell >or give away without expressed permission. Again, this isn't quite correct. The rights to make copies of a "work" initially rest with the creator of that work. The creator (author what have you) can then choose to grant limited subsets of those rights (or not) to other people. As an author I am the copyright holder, I can assign some or all of those rights to a "publisher" who is allowed to make copies of my work, provided they send me a fee. *EVERYTHING* works this way, everything from books to software to music to DVDs and to ill fated Divx disks. > Software is going the >route of, you pay for the media, manuals and support(optional) and also >for rights to use under specified conditions as a CONTRACT. There >lies the difference. the manuals are property (usually) but the software is >provided under some stipulation (even freeware!) regarding it's use. Manuals still have copyrights, you cannot make copies of them without permission. This is particularly true of manuals that are distributed as PDF files. Generally you only have the write to print one copy for you own personal use! What most people are really upset about (even if they don't understand how intellectual property works) is the *MARGIN* on software. Typically a paperback book has a small margin (the physical manufacturing costs say 25% of the price and the rest is the margin) whereas a software CD costs perhaps 2% of the price or less. Book authors have traditionally sold the rights to publish their works (create copies) in paper form, without stipulating a transfer fee when the book changes owners. They did that not because they were generous, but because there wasn't any way they could figure out how to do it. (The e-book guys can identify change of ownership and guess what, you can't give your ebook to another person without them having to rebuy the book!) Just because you have a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" it only gives you the right to read it, not aloud at some gathering, or to put it on as a school play. Anyway, I don't mean to pick on anyone, it is not unusual for people to believe that by buying a record they somehow "own" the music that is on that record (or CD), they don't. They have only secured the right to listen to it as often as they would like without additional payments to the author. For some really interesting insight into just how intellectual property works, check out the Napster and MP3 cases that have a lot of their material posted on various web sites. --Chuck From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 20:14:11 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <200006222213.PAA08130@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > NO. RT-11 is most definitly NOT FREEWARE!!! Read the *License* that is > with the versions of RT-11 that you will find out on the net! You will > learn that it is available with the following restrictions: > > 1. Only for use with Bob Supnik's emulator (actualy DEC owned > emulators)! This is not a problem. One just has to make sure that one has a system in one's collection running Bob Subnik's emulator attached to one's real PDP-11s. Have the one with the emulator monitoring something on the real PDP-11 systems, or somesuch, then, you ARE using the versions of RT-11 on the real PDP-11s with Bob Supnik's emulator. :-) :-) :-) > AGAIN RT-11 IS NOT FREEWARE!!! Furthermore, claiming such could damage > efforts to get a hobbyist license in place that will allow hobbyists to run > RT-11 on thier hardware. Ok, let's not make a big deal out of people using RT-11 on their systems. If they don't have a copy, someone will probably clone them a copy. No big deal, and DEC didn't care. I was actually told, by someone in customer service at DEC, to go ahead and use it and not worry about the license, a few years back, and, when a very pleasant chap from DEC field service came to my house to investigate a melted mains plug, no questions were asked. > Note, the existing Hobbyist License, which as I've stated can only be used > with Bob Supnik's emulator, also covers some of the other OS's. It also > covers layered products. > MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free > license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy the > SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in > conjunction with the EMULATOR. There, _in conjunction with the EMULATOR_ - it doesn't say to only use it with the emulator, but in conjunction with the emulator. Also, that bit about the license being revocable; that's probably as binding as a contract of ashesion. Let's say you spend a huge amount of time on writing some software to control various things around your house that runs under RT-11; you most likely have a right to continue using your software running under RT-11. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jun 22 20:05:31 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Arium, UNIX, and other strange things. . . Message-ID: <20000622.201856.-3896179.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:02:44 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" writes: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > Yes, I expect it is. It's the only Unix portable I've seen. Very > blue, very heavy. Well you know, there a bunch of odd coincidences that revolve around Arium, American Automation (now American Arium), the Regulus OS, and the SS-50 bus (of all things). It goes like this: American Automation was a maker of ICE's and development stations in the early 1980's. One of their products was called the EZPro-- it was a general development system that could be equipped with a variety of ICE's (I own a processor unit; I never located the 68000 ICE that came with it originally). Anyways, The EZPro was based on the 6802 CPU, and it used the SS=50 bus! It is the only piece of test/development equipment I have ever seen or heard that used this bus. Around 1985, I contacted these guys, and got a full set of prints for my system, and a couple of 8" floppies with the OS, along with the source for the ROMs. They told me that most of their EZ-Pro hardware had been *thrown out* a few *weeks* earlier, that I could have had it, had I asked. Ever seen a grown man cry? They showed me their new product, I can't remember the name, but they mentioned that it still used the ss-50 bus. I remember now that it looked very similar to a product made by . . . Smoke Signal Broadcasting (SSB), which made a 68000 based product called the VAR. This thing ran Regulus, and was supposed to be very good for real-time processing. SSB, if anyone remembers, used to make a very nice line of SS-50 machines (The Chieftain). Fast foreward about ten years, and Arium merges with American Automation to become American Arium. I wonder if Arium based their earlier products on the SSB VAR. Spooky, huh? > > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > > writes: > > > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a > version of > > ^^^^^ > > Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's > > and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. > > > > JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? > > > > I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was > > marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 22 20:41:18 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <39529EEA.B851400C@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping, you > have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else. > BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And Also, it can all be moved in two trips with a mid-sized station-wagon (e.g. - a Gran Torino)... well, possibly one if you really squeezed the stuff in there. If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. > bring some tools so that you can separate the components. At a minimum: assorted screwdrivers, vice grips, nut-drivers, nose-pincher pliers, torx screwdrivers, wire-cutter for emergencies, penknife, pen, notebook, zip-lock bag for screws and nuts, paper and tape to label wires and connectors, a double-bagged paper grocery-store bag to put various odds and ends in and pair of gardening gloves. Note: ask for any tapes, documentation, etc. as soon as possible, not another trip, if possible, as such things tend to get lost or tossed out quickly after the system goes away or gets unplugged. > You will find it much easier if you only need to lift one item at a > time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape drive alone > can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually handle that easily. Several years ago, I disassembled, moved, and reassembled an entire 11/73 rack myself, including the TS05 tape drive, expansion chasis, two 8" SMD drives, etc. Just be careful to lift with the knees and not the back. Of course, it would be a lot easier with two people, and much more pleasant a task with the temperatures in the 50s. :-) > If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will be a great find > IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially > if you need it. Most definitely! :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 22 16:43:51 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <20000623014154.YTHS6272.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:38:22 -0400 (EDT) > From: "R. D. Davis" > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > No need. Go into Tools. > > Pick Options > [...] > > Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. > > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. Got twisted up by nasty bitter pill? See, using machines that is intel-inside doesn't mean automatically that you're branded loser. What you should have done is aim your bitterness at M$ for shoddy apps and breakable NT and loads of codes trying to "break non-M$ s/w" and hidden agrendas in forms of updates and non-compatiable file standards by differen apps versions. Myself using 95a w/ pegasus mail and free agent, netscape. There is so much alteratives apps and OSes besides M$, different machines as well, (classic and non-classics). Be constructive by suggest them to try out different OSes and apps on their machines instead of offending s/w or OSes in use. Wizard From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 20:49:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <001901bfdcb6$e0f2f280$8064c0d0@ajp166> >Sigh. Allison has this part of it wrong, and it is a common problem. > >The book *is* the license. The contents (words etc) are licensed to the >particular bits of paper and cover that you are holding in your hand. When >you transfer the paper, the words go with it. You are forbidden from No, the book is media (I didn't say paper, tape, or ???). >copying the words off the paper and putting them on to some other piece of >paper. What you *own* in the book case is some newsprint, some wax, and >some binder thread *and that is all*. You own media! Bay saying Book it's an implied bound paper media. > You license the software and it is licensed (bound) to your CPU. > You own the CPU and may dispose of it how you wish, however if you > give it away or burn it or throw it away, the software goes with it! > Intel tried to make this model possible with their serial number > scheme but the market rejected it. > >So software, unlike books, is licensed to _people_. (or corporations) >because people and corporations like to be able to change their CPU and not >bother with relicensing their software. If you throw away the corporation >then the license gets thrown away too, just like if you had thrown away the >book. It can be, but, I have an ODBC driver that is "per CPU, unlimited users" that happens to be for a server license. >> The copyright means you can't make copies >>of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell >>or give away without expressed permission. > >Again, this isn't quite correct. The rights to make copies of a "work" >initially rest with the creator of that work. The creator (author what have >you) can then choose to grant limited subsets of those rights (or not) to >other people. As an author I am the copyright holder, I can assign some or >all of those rights to a "publisher" who is allowed to make copies of my >work, provided they send me a fee. *EVERYTHING* works this way, everything >from books to software to music to DVDs and to ill fated Divx disks. I think I said exactly that. The YOU is the holder of the finished product not a LICENSED producer who by expressed permission (contract) can and does produce copies for profit. However My reference also goes to intended use. For example a Encylopedias, they are an information source as reference where wholesale copying is bad but, the contained compendium of knowledge is NOT the property but, the format and package is. >> Software is going the >>route of, you pay for the media, manuals and support(optional) and also >>for rights to use under specified conditions as a CONTRACT. There >>lies the difference. the manuals are property (usually) but the software is >>provided under some stipulation (even freeware!) regarding it's use. > >Manuals still have copyrights, you cannot make copies of them without >permission. This is particularly true of manuals that are distributed as >PDF files. Generally you only have the write to print one copy for you own >personal use! Irrelevent. As I've specified manuals to be as books but distinct from the software itself. It's the distinction between them that was to point being made even though logically they can be identical. >Book authors have traditionally sold the rights to publish their works >(create copies) in paper form, without stipulating a transfer fee when the >book changes owners. They did that not because they were generous, but >because there wasn't any way they could figure out how to do it. (The >e-book guys can identify change of ownership and guess what, you can't give >your ebook to another person without them having to rebuy the book!) You sure? there are such things as licensed copies, copies under NDA and restricted printings. the assumption is you do not retain a copy in both cases. There is the distinct difference. If I give a paper book(tape or other media) away I no longer retain a copy, electronic means allow me to give a COPY and keep the "original" that is a clear copyright violation. There is also the case of I have a music CD, I copy it (or parts) to tape for use in my car where CDs are not useful. This would be format translation and is usually allowed. >Just because you have a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" it only gives you the >right to read it, not aloud at some gathering, or to put it on as a school >play. Correct to a point as profit taking venture. If you used it for schooling or non profit as a out loud reading it is now out side that. >Anyway, I don't mean to pick on anyone, it is not unusual for people to >believe that by buying a record they somehow "own" the music that is on >that record (or CD), they don't. They have only secured the right to listen >to it as often as they would like without additional payments to the Cant find fault in that. Its the exact case. Also no person from the record company or author is allowed to take it from you. They can audit you to see if it's for profit (ASCAP!). DJs for instance! >author. For some really interesting insight into just how intellectual >property works, check out the Napster and MP3 cases that have a lot of >their material posted on various web sites. Can of worms. At the core is who "owns the original work", what that original work is and who is allowed to profit from distribution. The best case of this is I make a recording my arrangement of Bach using pots and PC and sell it on CD. Who owns what? For software, it's worse. I write a version of Basic for 8080, assemble it using MS-MAC, using a Z80 box, under cpm and sell it on a sony microfloppy. Does Darthmoth College get something for the basis of the language? Howabout MS for the use of the MAC asembler used to get a binary? does Sony share as it's their media? Howabout Zilog as it was their cpu design even though it was a Mostek chip? Oh and Intel for their cpu and nemonics? Oh and the company that owned the Z80 box for accounting? What is created?, Who did it, who has a legit share? In any case the license (contract) for RT-11 is specific and any misuse outside that permitted use is a violation subject to legal remedy. Allison From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Thu Jun 22 22:25:52 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: PDP-16 (register transfer modules) Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07E4E24C@ALFEXC5> Does anyone have a PDP-16 (sort of a prototyping machine using register transfer modules) that they'd be willing to part with? I thought I'd made arrangements to snag one from "JohnB", but he appears to have disappeared from the face of the earth. This machine looks intriguing and I'd really like to find one. -- Tony From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 22:41:45 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <007d01bfdbe6$da49e4a0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <3951815E.FB883B31@rain.org> <017001bfdc19$dda90d00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <39522E29.9EBE3C89@rain.org> Message-ID: <001e01bfdcc4$f5fd9280$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin" To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 12:48 AM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > Okay, I just changed it from user-defined to Western. Is this message coming > through okay? No problem now. >FWIW, I've been using Netscape for years with no problems that > *I* am aware of :). It's insidious. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 22:52:33 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: Message-ID: <002e01bfdcc6$77171520$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 2:08 AM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > No need. Go into Tools. > > Pick Options > [...] > > Put a tick in the Box marked Use Default encoding for all incoming messages. > > Why are you sending Luzedoze e-mail to this list? Please either find > a way to send plain ASCII or Er, if you set the format as I have said, it does send it as plain ascii. (Or as near as it can get to it) > delete Luzedoze from your system and > install something more useful that can send messages properly. Pegasus is not too bad. I use Outlook Express here because I like certain features, but it does have a few traps for the unwary. They can be overcome and it's relatively well behaved, (apart from it line wrapping ism's which are a bit of a pain at times. > > That will display them in the default encoding method no matter what format > > the incoming msg uses. > However, you need to remember that not everyone here uses that Microsoft > rubbish, I am quite aware of this thank you. The msg was intended for someone who appears to be using it. It was also intended as gen info for anyone on the list that may be using it and had the same problem. > so you shouldn't be sending e-mail that requires the recipient > to do anything other than read it. I wasn't. It appears Marvin was, but he was unaware of it. That issue is fixed. :^) Complain to Bill Gates about Outlook Express. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 22 23:06:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: PDP-16 (register transfer modules) References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07E4E24C@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <3952E251.C6CBB88@rain.org> "Eros, Anthony" wrote: > > Does anyone have a PDP-16 (sort of a prototyping machine using register > transfer modules) that they'd be willing to part with? Yes, it is an interesting "programmable solid state controller"; I hesitate to call it a computer :). When I worked for Nabisco at the Richmond, VA plant, we had about 25 or so of them to control the mixing of ingredients. With the maintenance module and the flow chart that came with the schematics, it was pretty trivial to troubleshoot these things to the component level. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 23:13:02 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <00c001bfdcc9$53bd10e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 5:13 AM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > which is ridiculous, because "Windows-1252" is a unique Microsoft > non-standard character set (meant to be similar to ISO 8859-1, but with a > unique symbol order), and it's also an 8-bit character set which can't be > represented in 7 bits without using base64, uuencode, quoted-printable, or > similar. > > I'm not complaining, merely informing :-) No problem. :^) Bloody thing. Thanks for that. I'm going to reach into the registry settings or whatever and bludgeon it into submission. It seems to be resetting the charset to whatever I'm replying to, and if I change it, it only changes for the one msg and then reverts to that. (Theoretically, it's supposed to be the ISO set not that one.) I'm going to find out what does this and fix it. I'll let you know how I get on. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 23:14:59 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Legal Question Message-ID: <200006230414.AAA10922@world.std.com> >All this talk about RT-11, RSX-11M,RSTS/E licensing details is making me >wonder. If I acquired a PDP-11 of some kind, and it came with RSX-11M >and/or RT-11 and or/ RSTS/E, would I have to have a license? I know a Legally, yes, you would need a license. This step is accomplished by either buying one yourself or having the prior owner transfer theirs to you (assuming *they* had a license). >license is legally required, but is it essential in running the OS? Does >the OS have any way of checking for one? What is required for running the There is nothing in RT, RSTS or RSX which checks for a license, so it doesn't know you have or don't have one... >OS? I really don't know anything about the PDP-11 family. What is required is a complete distribution... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 23:18:38 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <200006230418.AAA13089@world.std.com> >> Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about >>collecting >Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I >asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it >freely accessible. Saying it is doesn't make it so... it may be available on various sites, but that also doesn't make it legal. If it is the version which came originally from the ftp.digital.com site, then it should be packaged with the license from Mentec. If it does not come with the Mentec license, then it is essentially boot-legged software. >Hmmm... Then you should try the PUPS archive I think it is called. You >get a license for it for free. bzzzt, wrong... and thanks for playing. THe PUPS archive may be able to provide a license for *UNIX* of various flavors, but it does NOT provide one for RT, RSX or RSTS. The only source for a valid license for these software products is the *owner*, which is Mentec! Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 22 23:28:21 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <200006230428.AAA16994@world.std.com> >This is not a problem. One just has to make sure that one has a >system in one's collection running Bob Subnik's emulator attached to >one's real PDP-11s. Have the one with the emulator monitoring >something on the real PDP-11 systems, or somesuch, then, you ARE using >the versions of RT-11 on the real PDP-11s with Bob Supnik's emulator. >:-) :-) :-) Sorry, the current license does NOT impart a right to run the software on *real hardware*. It only imparts a right to use it with the DEC pdp-11 emulator products and Bob Supnik's emulator. This means running it *on* the emulator, not what you mention above. >Ok, let's not make a big deal out of people using RT-11 on their >systems. If they don't have a copy, someone will probably clone them >a copy. No big deal, and DEC didn't care. I was actually told, by >someone in customer service at DEC, to go ahead and use it and not >worry about the license, a few years back, and, when a very pleasant >chap from DEC field service came to my house to investigate a melted >mains plug, no questions were asked. If they said that, they were *wrong*. >There, _in conjunction with the EMULATOR_ - it doesn't say to only use >it with the emulator, but in conjunction with the emulator. Maybe in your mind it means you don't have to run it on the emulator, but now you are properly informed -- it means that you may only run it on the *emulated machine*. >Also, that bit about the license being revocable; that's probably as >binding as a contract of ashesion. Let's say you spend a huge amount >of time on writing some software to control various things around your >house that runs under RT-11; you most likely have a right to continue >using your software running under RT-11. You can continue to use your software, you just can't run it under RT -- regardless of what it is written for, since you don't have a valid license for RT. Please, all this talk of ignoring licenses and the lack of need for them can only serve to hurt to rest of the community of pdp-11 collectors. Mentec is apparently close to allow us all to use the real software on the real hardware... *DON'T SCREW IT UP* Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Jun 22 23:32:20 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? References: <200006222027.NAA25185@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <00d601bfdccc$05dbe740$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 5:57 AM Subject: Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? > Personally I both sell and give away the software I write, depending on the > program. I have no problem with people selling licenses etc. Since by it's nature, it's possible to use it on more than one machine per copy. (Unlike a book, the most common comparison). So a license to use rather than an ownership of the product is not unreasonable. What I find objectionable and (to me) unreasonable, is the requirement to pay ridiculous sums for a new license when a machine changes hands. Ie the original owner is not allowed to even give away his right to use the software to someone else. That's ridiculous. (Some licenses are still like that AFAIK) Hypothetical (well, mostly) Example. Joe Bloggs buys a Ubeaut computer and buys BeautOS to run on it, with several 'embedded' apps that do various things, like networking etc. Uses it for some years. Then falls victim to the Microsoft conspiracy and buys a PC and Win98. The Ubeaut sits in a back room for a year or two, then is sold to another individual to use. The original owner has no use for the O/S (it only runs on a UBeaut) so he gives him the disks/paperwork etc. The new owner calls the Ubeaut company to transfer the license to himself, only to be told he can't do so and must buy a complete new license.. He then discovers that 'embedded products' are also not transferable, and he must buy them as well. When he challenged this he was told that the company does not bind the license to the machine it was bought for (though indeed it checks the hardware and will only install on that machine) but to the original purchaser, who cannot transfer the license to another party, but has it for life. The original owner's license is such that he may surrender it to the company (but not for any recompense) or he may keep it, but may not dispose of it in any other way. I have seen variants of this, some applied to the O/S, some applied only to certain 'layered products' or both. Theoretically, if the machine and the copy of the software on it change hands X times, the company wants X license fees. I feel this is somewhat overdoing it. I'm not going to pick on any particular company here, many have policies like this for some things. Some have been good enough to provide hobbyist licenses for people that just want to tinker, but still think people with a s/h system & s/h software for commercial use should pay new prices for a license they already sold for that machine. > Zane (who is sick and tired about people whining about > non-free software) All software can't be free. Programmers have to eat. I don't have a problem with that. Just my 0.02c worth, you may have a different slant on things.. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jun 23 00:13:12 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Arium Echo (was Re: Free: Apollo DOMAIN/OS Software ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, I'm surprised anybody knows about that box. It was dual-68K (one was a dedicated I/O processor), and ran Regulus, a real-time Unix clone made by a company called Alcyon in San Diego. I think we got it out the door in 1985. I wrote a good chunk of the software for it. We thought it would be cool to have a portable Unix cross-development system. Regulus was nice -- way ahead of it's time, I guess; Linux is just starting to target real-time. Arium is still around, specializing in ICE support for Intel processors: http://www.arium.com/ Cheers, Doug On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > Yes, I expect it is. It's the only Unix portable I've seen. Very blue, > very heavy. > > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:22:05 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > > writes: > > > We have an Arium machine running Aegis Regulus. Is this a version of > > ^^^^^ > > Arium?!!? I wonder if it is the same Arium that made ICE's > > and development stations in the early-to-mid 80's. > > > > JUst curious: That wouldn't be a 680x0 machine, would it? > > > > I remember an OS that ran on 680x0 platforms that was > > marketed at about that time called 'Regulus'. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jun 23 00:17:19 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Arium, UNIX, and other strange things. . . In-Reply-To: <20000622.201856.-3896179.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > Fast foreward about ten years, and Arium merges with American Automation > to become American Arium. I wonder if Arium based their earlier products > on the SSB VAR. No, they never shared any hardware platforms with American Automation. Up till 1985, Arium's stuff was 8085-based, then 68K with the Echo (portable Unix box), and PC-based since then. Cheers, Doug From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 23 02:44:41 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: "Ernest"'s message of "Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:01:09 -0700" References: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200006230744.AAA48622@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Ernest" wrote: > What's happening is that my Pentium system doesn't recognize the format of > these old SS 3.5 disks, even though they are formatted with MSDOS (FAT 12 I > think.) My Pentium will see the 720k disks that I format on the HP but not > the old SS disks. Does anyone know why? No, but Sydex wrote a shareware MS-DOS device driver that used to be available on simtel.net's MS-DOS collection, which supposedly allowed the reading and maybe writing of HP150 stiffies in a PC stiffy drive. Sad to say, I couldn't get it to work on my Toshiba notebook PC (MS-DOS 6.22) for purposes of reading a single-sided HP150 stiffy. You might have better luck. -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 23 02:15:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? In-Reply-To: "Geoff Roberts" "Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection?" (Jun 23, 13:43) References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <00c001bfdcc9$53bd10e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <10006230815.ZM10076@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 23, 13:43, Geoff Roberts wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Turnbull" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 5:13 AM > Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > which is ridiculous, because "Windows-1252" is a unique Microsoft > > non-standard character set (meant to be similar to ISO 8859-1, but > with a > > unique symbol order), and it's also an 8-bit character set which can't > be > > represented in 7 bits without using base64, uuencode, > quoted-printable, or > > similar. > > > > I'm not complaining, merely informing :-) > > No problem. :^) > > Bloody thing. Thanks for that. I'm going to reach into the registry > settings or whatever and bludgeon it into submission. It seems to be > resetting the charset to whatever I'm replying to, and if I change it, > it only changes for the one msg and then reverts to that. > (Theoretically, it's supposed to be the ISO set not that one.) > I'm going to find out what does this and fix it. I'll let you know how > I get on. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for. Best of luck :-) Several months ago, one of our most senior members of staff (who has been around a long time, and is perfectly happy with text mail, Unix, etc, but has to use a PC for various reasons) sent several long messages to 'support' in mixed HTML+ format, which caused some touble for our support mail system. I politely advised him of this and he said he'd fix it. Well, the next mail was still full of cruft, so I pointed out that we don't support Outlook, and could he please stop using it or set it properly. OK, he replied, in plain text. But the next message was in -- guess what! So I politely mailed him back, just to let him know. There followed a long discussion; basically he refused to beleive his mailer (Outlook) was sending crud because he'd reset it, tested it, and couldn't beleive that his computer/OS could non-deterministically change its own settings. We never did get entirely to the bottom of it, but it seems that in some versions of Outlook, certain settings only apply to that session (ie are reset next time you restart), and some settings are accessible in two places, and you have to change both. We still don't support Outlook, in fact we remove it from view in our standard installs of Windows. But it's still there and people still use it, and it's mostl OK so long as it's set up sensibly. The problem is that Microsoft don't really understand standards like TCP/IP, MIME, DNS, ... (or just don't believe in them). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 23 08:06:06 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: FBA [mailto:fauradon@mn.mediaone.net] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 6:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Yo > > Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you > expect to have > your collection survive you? When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/e15f7564/attachment-0001.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 23 08:18:13 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE76@TEGNTSERVER> > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > > Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping, you > > have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else. > > BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And > > Also, it can all be moved in two trips with a mid-sized station-wagon > (e.g. - a Gran Torino)... well, possibly one if you really squeezed > the stuff in there. Well, right now, it's not for certain I'll get it, since John Allain is bidding against me. Hi, John... are you local to Louisville area? I'll be using a pickup truck, and it's a single 42 inch high cabinet, so I think that'll be sufficient. > If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those > rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. Would it be feasible to remove the skins and set it on its side (on a quilt)? > > bring some tools so that you can separate the components. > ..snip.. > > Note: ask for any tapes, documentation, etc. as soon as possible, not > another trip, if possible, as such things tend to get lost or tossed > out quickly after the system goes away or gets unplugged. The system is in the hands of a sort-of-collector, not at its original installed site. The photo shows a bookcase of what appear to be manuals, but he may intend to sell them separately. I'll ask, tho, to be sure. > > You will find it much easier if you only need to lift one item at a > > time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape drive alone > > can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually handle that easily. > > Several years ago, I disassembled, moved, and reassembled an entire > 11/73 rack myself, including the TS05 tape drive, expansion chasis, > two 8" SMD drives, etc. Just be careful to lift with the knees and > not the back. Of course, it would be a lot easier with two people, > and much more pleasant a task with the temperatures in the 50s. :-) Hah, it will likely be in the high 80s or low 90s if I get the dang thing. Fortunately, the truck is being driven by a farm boy, so he's used to lifting that bale, toting that barge... > > If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will be a great find > > IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially > > if you need it. > > Most definitely! :-) I'll at least be transferring the plexiglass tape drive window to the Cipher I have for the Prime. BTW, I asked the seller to check the rear plate of the TS05, thinking it *is* a Cipher F880 and he came back and said it has only a TS05 ID plate. The front bezel is *identical* to the F880 streamer. Do you know yea/nay on this? -dq From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 23 08:33:11 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? Message-ID: <000623093311.26200878@trailing-edge.com> >> If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those >> rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. >Would it be feasible to remove the skins and set it on its side (on >a quilt)? Yes, that's my preferred way for transporting H9642's when they can't be moved standing up. The quilt is there to protect your truck bed, not the rack :-). Again, make sure the side panels don't blow away, there's a pair of VAX 11/750 top panels *somewhere* along the side of the Santa Monica freeway that disappeared once during a haul of mine... >I'll at least be transferring the plexiglass tape drive window >to the Cipher I have for the Prime. BTW, I asked the seller to >check the rear plate of the TS05, thinking it *is* a Cipher F880 >and he came back and said it has only a TS05 ID plate. > >The front bezel is *identical* to the F880 streamer. Do you know >yea/nay on this? Mechanically, they're identical except for the nameplates. There may be slightly different firmware/electronics, but these vary depending on the F880 rev level anyway. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Jun 23 08:51:46 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01bfdd1a$2c7979f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. > Steve Robertson Just be sure to hit the [send] on your email before you do! (All joking aside, I guess the lesson is that this virtual community we have here will be unknown to any of our successors unless we make efforts to document its existence and our memberships in it. Also, for a collection worth more than a few $K, it probably should be documented with items and their values and supporting literarure (Processor magazine?) ) John A. From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 23 09:27:20 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: your email address at hotmail References: <20000622185428.5175.qmail@hotmail.com> <002401bfdcaf$2d337dc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <395373C8.418664AC@ix.netcom.com> i don't have a hotmail account. Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've gotten a couple of emails bounced from hotmail. Could you send me a > list of useable email addresses, so I can get your auction info to you > promptly. Have you gotten in touch with the guy who's got your manuals? > > regards, > > Dick From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 23 09:49:01 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: RSX-11M for Supnik emulator ? Message-ID: Speaking of PDP-11 emulators and licenses ... Is there anywhere I can get an RSX-11M distribution for use with Supnik's emulator? The current Mentec license appears to permit this (at least, for RSX-11M V4.3 and previous, or RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or previous), but the software isn't on the DEC FTP site. --Pat. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Jun 23 10:01:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? References: <005c01bfdc60$bfa9a340$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> <10006222043.ZM22727@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <00c001bfdcc9$53bd10e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <10006230815.ZM10076@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002101bfdd24$970dfa20$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: How do you finance/afford your computer collection? > The problem is that > Microsoft don't really understand standards like TCP/IP, MIME, DNS, ... (or > just don't believe in them). I think that about covers it.....:^) Cheers Geoff From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Jun 23 10:35:20 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> I have to make one point here, then I'll slink back into lurk mode. Using the book analogy would not necessarily mean that your licensed software was legally bound to the *CPU* the way the contents of a book are bound to the paper. Making it legally bound to the CPU would be like making the contents of the book legally bound to the room in which you read it; you sell the house, the book goes with it; you want to sell the book, sell the house. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the software contents legally bound to the original media on which it was delivered? This is how books work, and (I think) how most people expect software licensing to work. Licensing to the CPU was just another way to make sure nobody could every reasonably transfer their license to anyone else. If the book publishers did that, they'd be.. uh... out of the mass market. (How many publishers engrave their work into house walls rather than print onto paper? And how many engravings of novels have you bought from them lately?) Thank God the market rejected it! My point it, software *could* be licensed the way the contents of books are; it need not imply any ill-conceived notions that hinder transferrability, such as binding to a CPU. The holder of the original media could be the legal holder of the license, just as with books. The book analogy could work just fine, and the market has *not* rejected it. Bill. ON Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: ] ] At 06:59 PM 6/22/00 -0400, Allison wrote: ] >Consider this you buy a book, you own it to dispose of how you wish ] >(sell, give or burn). You don't buy a license to read it or X many friends ] >to read it. It is property. ] ] Sigh. Allison has this part of it wrong, and it is a common problem. ] ] The book *is* the license. The contents (words etc) are licensed to the ] particular bits of paper and cover that you are holding in your hand. When ] you transfer the paper, the words go with it. You are forbidden from ] copying the words off the paper and putting them on to some other piece of ] paper. What you *own* in the book case is some newsprint, some wax, and ] some binder thread *and that is all*. ] ] If you *MUST* use the book analogy, (and it has already appeared twice ] now), understand how it would be implemented in computers: ] ] You license the software and it is licensed (bound) to your CPU. ] You own the CPU and may dispose of it how you wish, however if you ] give it away or burn it or throw it away, the software goes with it! ] Intel tried to make this model possible with their serial number ] scheme but the market rejected it. ] ] So software, unlike books, is licensed to _people_. (or corporations) ] because people and corporations like to be able to change their CPU and not ] bother with relicensing their software. If you throw away the corporation ] then the license gets thrown away too, just like if you had thrown away the ] book. ] ... and much more, deleted... From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 23 11:10:23 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <000623121023.262008af@trailing-edge.com> >Wouldn't it make more sense to have the software contents legally >bound to the original media on which it was delivered? This is how >books work, and (I think) how most people expect software licensing >to work. Except that you can't use the software until you *copy* it into your computer. The courts have ruled that it's copying whether you read it into RAM or write it to a hard drive. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 23 11:30:10 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE6E@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <006001bfdd30$514af9a0$4b483cd1@winbook> If anybody has a valid [**NOT** Hotmail] address for Will Jennings, please let me know. He asked me to bid on a couple of eBay items for him and now that he's won on them my communication path has broken down due to Hotmail's claim that they {their server} don't exist. Since it's my goal to reduce the amount of ancient computer hardware I have lying about, I'd really rather not become the owner of the electro-ecletica that he wanted. Dick From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 23 11:37:34 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: HP15 disk format (was: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Ernest wrote: > I've started to make copies of these HP150 disks, and since I have a minute, > I was wondering why my WinPC won't recognize these disks. Because that is NOT one of the "official" MS-DOS disk formats that MICROS~1 supports. MICROS~1 had provision for OEMs to be able to modify certain pieces (IO.SYS) of MS-DOS, particularly in version 2.11, to be able to add their own unique formats. Starting in version 3.20, all variants of MS-DOS support a 720K format, although that is NOT always the same as the 720K format that some OEMs had been using prior to that. > What I've been > doing to get around this problem is to copy each disk to the HD on my 150, > and then copy the new files from the 150 to a blank 720k disk, which my > Pentium system can see but this is really tedious. > > What's happening is that my Pentium system doesn't recognize the format of > these old SS 3.5 disks, even though they are formatted with MSDOS (FAT 12 I > think.) My Pentium will see the 720k disks that I format on the HP but not > the old SS disks. Does anyone know why? Yes. There are literally hundreds of mutually incompatible MS-DOS disk formats (as well as thousands of CP/M ones) > Are the old disks copy protected? No. > Or is because they're single sided? I'm > curious because I would like to find a better way to copy these disks. There are several programs available for transferring files between different disk formats. http://www.xenosoft.com/xcflyer.html But what you are currently doing seems to be working reasonably well. Does your HP support the "phantom B: drive"? Quick experiment: Even with only one physical floppy, ask for a DIR B: Most MS-DOS systems will NOT say "Invalid Drive Specification" to that! Instead, they will prompt you to put the drive B: disk into the drive! The system uses the one physical drive for both A: and B: ! You could simply type COPY A:*.* B: and it will prompt you for disk swaps. WRITE-PROTECT ALL OF YOUR SOURCE DISKS BEFORE YOU START, since sometime you will put the wrong disk into the drive. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 23 11:45:33 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you > > expect to have > > your collection survive you? > When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. > Steve Robertson The executor of my estate has instructions to hold a garage sale, to be announced on this and a few other lists, followed by whatever she wants to do with the stuff. [hint: If YOU provide her with the dumpster, ...] But with the closing of my current office location happening now, there may not be an abnormal amount of stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 23 13:10:41 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why not will it to the Computer Museum History Center? http://www.computerhistory.org hat's what I intend to do with mine. -Mike On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: FBA [mailto:fauradon@mn.mediaone.net] > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 6:04 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Yo > > > > Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you > > expect to have > > your collection survive you? > > When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. > Steve Robertson > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 23 13:25:56 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:57 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> (message from Bill Yakowenko on Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:35:20 -0400 (EDT)) References: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20000623182556.5638.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > My point it, software *could* be licensed the way the contents of > books are; it need not imply any ill-conceived notions that hinder > transferrability, such as binding to a CPU. The holder of the original > media could be the legal holder of the license, just as with books. > The book analogy could work just fine, and the market has *not* > rejected it. And in fact Borland used to do exactly that. Their license explicitly stated that the software was like a book, and that they were happy as long the software was only run on one machine at any given time (just like a book generally can only be read by one person at a time). Wish I had a copy of the license to type in; as commercial software licenses go it was one of the best. They didn't explicitly state it, but I suppose that just as you might tear a book in two so that two people can read different parts of it simultaneously, perhaps you could simultaneously run two portion of the Borland software on two computers. Eric From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 23 13:34:42 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Yik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just go back from checking out a municipal yard sale in North Kingstown. Generally speaking, not much. I did see a TRS-80 model 1, and an early Mac and an Apple II lurking in the piles. Also some early clone XT's and AT's. One possibility is an ADDS Consul 980 terminal. I may go back for that. Looks like early 70's vintage. Also some Datamaxx jobs, but no servers. Odd omission. Mostly junk, but some IBM Selectric II's, and a beautiful Adler. Some Panasonic Electronic typewriters, too, but most stuff was in rough condition. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 23 13:49:33 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE78@TEGNTSERVER> > Why not will it to the Computer Museum History Center? > > http://www.computerhistory.org > > hat's what I intend to do with mine. It's not enough to just will your collection or some part of it to the Computer Museum History Center... unless you also provide for the shipping/transport of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so themselves. Everyone, please bear this in mind. Make sure a few $$$ remain to cover shipping & handling! -dq From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jun 23 13:57:56 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings Message-ID: <20000623.135805.-452223.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Yeah, I'd like to contact him also. . . . ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 23 14:19:04 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook Message-ID: Well, I corresponded with some folks at AMD, and didn't quite get everything I wanted, but this might help somebody. They have approved me making up to 10 copies of the Am2900 databook. My plan is to scan it in and turn it into a PDF file. Therefore, I can only make copies available to 10 people. If you are seriously interested in a copy of this, let me know (John Keys - I assume you'd like a copy, and already have you down for one). If you get a copy of this from me, you may not redistribute it to anyone. You'll also need to be patient, as it may take a week or two for me to get around to doing this. If substantially more than 10 people are interested, I'll go back to them and request further permission, but this was all they felt they could let me do without running my request through legal review. --Pat. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jun 23 14:32:18 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <20000623182556.5638.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jun 23, 2000 06:25:56 pm" Message-ID: <200006231932.MAA13347@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > And in fact Borland used to do exactly that. Their license explicitly > stated that the software was like a book, and that they were happy as long > the software was only run on one machine at any given time (just like a > book generally can only be read by one person at a time). Wish I had a > copy of the license to type in; as commercial software licenses go it was > one of the best. At one time the evil empire use to issue a license card with Windows, which allowed you to install Windows on as many machines as you wanted as long as the user had the card in their possession while using the machine. Personally, I though Borland's method was much better than MS's. Eric From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 23 15:52:38 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000623155238.3b8fbeba@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:06 AM 6/23/00 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: FBA [mailto:fauradon@mn.mediaone.net] >> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 6:04 PM >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Yo >> >> Even though the reply had a funny touch to it how else do you >> expect to have >> your collection survive you? > >When I die, my collection is up for grabs... First one here can have it all. >Steve Robertson That's an idea but I'm afraid that between you and Mike "DogAss" I wouldn't live very long. :-/ Joe From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 23 15:07:31 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Corvus concept Message-ID: I just came across a cardboard paper box that had 11 Corvus concept memory boards in it. Each is about 6" by 6" square. That's all there was. Anyone have an idea what they are? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu box diver = computer scrounger = ancient programmer From mbg at world.std.com Fri Jun 23 15:08:21 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: RSX-11M for Supnik emulator ? Message-ID: <200006232008.QAA18108@world.std.com> >Speaking of PDP-11 emulators and licenses ... >Is there anywhere I can get an RSX-11M distribution for use with Supnik's >emulator? The current Mentec license appears to permit this (at least, >for RSX-11M V4.3 and previous, or RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or previous), but the >software isn't on the DEC FTP site. Back when the Mentec license became available, I took a copy of my V5.3 kit and packaged it up for Bob Supnik so that he could get it up on the DEC ftp site. Unfortunately, by that time there was simply no-one from the RSX or RSTS groups left to do the same for those systems. And now, Bob Supnik is no longer around, so I don't know who to contact about putting stuff up on the site. Hopefully Mentec could be persuaded to have an archive of distributions available (once they actually allow the hobbyist use)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 23 15:17:11 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE79@TEGNTSERVER> Count me in, please... -doug quebbeman > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Barron [mailto:pat@transarc.ibm.com] > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 3:19 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook > > > Well, I corresponded with some folks at AMD, and didn't quite get > everything I wanted, but this might help somebody. > > They have approved me making up to 10 copies of the Am2900 > databook. My > plan is to scan it in and turn it into a PDF file. > Therefore, I can only > make copies available to 10 people. > > If you are seriously interested in a copy of this, let me > know (John Keys - I > assume you'd like a copy, and already have you down for one). > If you get > a copy of this from me, you may not redistribute it to anyone. You'll > also need to be patient, as it may take a week or two for me > to get around > to doing this. > > If substantially more than 10 people are interested, I'll go > back to them > and request further permission, but this was all they felt > they could let > me do without running my request through legal review. > > --Pat. > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 23 15:19:37 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd? In-Reply-To: <000623093311.26200878@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those > >> rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily. It seems to me that a few turns of duct tape around the rack would retain them alright. We used rather similar tape back in the 50's to retain some things on the fusilage surface when flight testing supersonic aircraft. - don > >Would it be feasible to remove the skins and set it on its side (on > >a quilt)? > > Yes, that's my preferred way for transporting H9642's when they can't > be moved standing up. The quilt is there to protect your truck bed, > not the rack :-). Again, make sure the side panels don't blow away, > there's a pair of VAX 11/750 top panels *somewhere* along the side of the Santa > Monica freeway that disappeared once during a haul of mine... > > >I'll at least be transferring the plexiglass tape drive window > >to the Cipher I have for the Prime. BTW, I asked the seller to > >check the rear plate of the TS05, thinking it *is* a Cipher F880 > >and he came back and said it has only a TS05 ID plate. > > > >The front bezel is *identical* to the F880 streamer. Do you know > >yea/nay on this? > > Mechanically, they're identical except for the nameplates. There may > be slightly different firmware/electronics, but these vary depending on the > F880 rev level anyway. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 23 15:26:36 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <000623121023.262008af@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Wouldn't it make more sense to have the software contents legally > >bound to the original media on which it was delivered? This is how > >books work, and (I think) how most people expect software licensing > >to work. > > Except that you can't use the software until you *copy* it into > your computer. The courts have ruled that it's copying whether you read > it into RAM or write it to a hard drive. By the same token, you cannot 'use' the contents of the book until you have 'copied' it into your mind! But doubtless, courts do not see it that way. - don > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 23 16:28:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Yik In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000623162843.3cf7da94@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:34 PM 6/23/00 -0400, Merle wrote: > >I just go back from checking out a municipal yard sale in North >Kingstown. Generally speaking, not much. I did see a TRS-80 model 1, >and an early Mac and an Apple II lurking in the piles. Also some early >clone XT's and AT's. One possibility is an ADDS Consul 980 terminal. I may >go back for that. Looks like early 70's vintage. Also some Datamaxx jobs, >but no servers. Odd omission. > >Mostly junk, but some IBM Selectric II's, and a beautiful Adler. Some >Panasonic Electronic typewriters, too, but most stuff was in rough condition. > > I did somewhat better. I picked up several CDC core memory boards (to help finance my collection!) and an old Tektronix Multi User Developement system (Tektronix 8540 and 8560) with a 68000 CPU pod. I just posted some pictures at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/tek-pod.jpg", "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/tek-8560.jpg", "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/tek-8540.jpg", "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/8560-bk.jpg" and "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/tek-developement/8540-bk.jpg". Sorry the pictures aren't any better but I just got home and unloaded the stuff and I haven't had time to clean it or look at it closely yet. The 8560 uses an 8 inch floppy drive. I have soem disk here that are marked "Tek-DOS", I'm hoping that they're for this system. Does anyone know anything about these? Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 23 16:02:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: DEC CPU bulkhead issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000623134812.00c285e0@208.226.86.10> As some of you may recall, I was wondering about the compatibility between the KA660 (VAX 4000/200 Q-Bus CPU) and the CPU bulkhead for a KA640 (VAXServer 3400 Q-Bus CPU). My issue was that the on-board Ethernet (SGEC) on the KA660 wasn't able to communicate through the AUI port on the bulkhead to the local LAN. (even though the switch was in the correct position and the LED above the AUI connector was green) The bulkhead had labels on it for a KA640 (indicating that the CPU had been replaced) and so my first theory was that the bulkheads were incompatible.) The bulkhead is DEC part number 70-25775-01. And it classifies as an "S-type". To debug this I removed the KA660 and inspected it, the SGEC is soldered in so removing/replacing it wasn't an option. I installed a DESQA ethernet in the backplane and netbooted NetBSD. I wrote a program to put the SGEC is loopback mode and tested it that way, it works fine. I scrounged around this morning and found another bulkhead with the same part number and tried it instead. With this bulkhead the AUI connector works! Yippee. So, thinking that perhaps there is a fuse that is blown (this happened on my DEQNA cab kit once before) I proceeded to disassemble the defective bulkhead. However, there is no evidence of a fuse anywhere. So perhaps there is a fusible link part. Anyway I'm hoping that someone on this list has the print set for the bulkhead and can tell me what might be wrong so that I might fix it. --Chuck From root at techcare.com Fri Jun 23 16:07:38 2000 From: root at techcare.com (Sean Caron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Corvus concept References: Message-ID: <3953D19A.65442FD2@techcare.com> "McFadden, Mike" wrote: > I just came across a cardboard paper box that had 11 Corvus concept memory > boards in it. Each is about 6" by 6" square. That's all there was. Anyone > have an idea what they are? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > box diver = computer scrounger = ancient programmer I would assume they were memory boards for the Corvus Concept, a rather interesting workstation-type computer that was produced around 1984 or so, I believe. It was a pretty neat system. It was 68000 based and I think it could run UNIX as well as a custom operating system made by Corvus (I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head) that was quasi-WYSIWYG.. Kind of a LISA Office System type of thing. There was a word processor, spreadsheet, etc. The system itself had this high-res (bitmapped?) monitor that you could swivel between portrait and landscape mode. I've got a magazine article about them kicking around the house somewhere. I can look for it if you're interested in more information about the systems. --Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jun 23 16:14:32 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Corvus concept In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Jun 23, 2000 03:07:31 pm" Message-ID: <200006232114.QAA04124@caesar.cs.umn.edu> http://www.atari-computer.com/mjaap/computer/english/hc_index.htm -Lawrence LeMay > I just came across a cardboard paper box that had 11 Corvus concept memory > boards in it. Each is about 6" by 6" square. That's all there was. Anyone > have an idea what they are? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > box diver = computer scrounger = ancient programmer > From Wm.King at eng.sun.com Fri Jun 23 16:38:45 2000 From: Wm.King at eng.sun.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: DEC CPU bulkhead issues Message-ID: <3953D8E5.C0DF8026@eng.sun.com> Chuck, Does this have a switch to select between AUI and 10-Base-2? I've recently repaired two systems where the switch was dirty and didn't make a good electrical connection. The symptoms were that the AUI port received, but wouldn't transmit. Maybe that's the problem. Bill -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wrking.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 229 bytes Desc: Card for William King Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/d8c30ac1/wrking-0001.vcf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 13:08:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfdca6$23934880$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at Jun 22, 0 05:01:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/b9f4348d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 16:55:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Yik In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000623162843.3cf7da94@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 23, 0 04:28:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/7c6857b3/attachment-0001.ksh From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 23 17:56:31 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Yo Message-ID: > >When I die, my collection is up for grabs... > > That's an idea but I'm afraid that between you and Mike "DogAss" I > wouldn't live very long. :-/ > > Joe I'm pretty sure your wife would help us load up all that "Junk"... You start feeling sick, just let me know :-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000623/b229ac17/attachment-0001.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jun 23 18:13:10 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook References: Message-ID: <013501bfdd68$9a634ec0$38701fd1@default> Thanks very much I will be waiting to hear from you. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Barron To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: Am2900 Bipolar Microprocessor Databook > Well, I corresponded with some folks at AMD, and didn't quite get > everything I wanted, but this might help somebody. > > They have approved me making up to 10 copies of the Am2900 databook. My > plan is to scan it in and turn it into a PDF file. Therefore, I can only > make copies available to 10 people. > > If you are seriously interested in a copy of this, let me know (John Keys - I > assume you'd like a copy, and already have you down for one). If you get > a copy of this from me, you may not redistribute it to anyone. You'll > also need to be patient, as it may take a week or two for me to get around > to doing this. > > If substantially more than 10 people are interested, I'll go back to them > and request further permission, but this was all they felt they could let > me do without running my request through legal review. > > --Pat. > > > From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Jun 23 18:22:17 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings In-Reply-To: <006001bfdd30$514af9a0$4b483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <000301bfdd69$df4e04c0$92e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Dick Erlacher said something to the effect: -> If anybody has a valid [**NOT** Hotmail] address for Will -> Jennings, please -> let me know. He asked me to bid on a couple of eBay items -> for him and now -> that he's won on them my communication path has broken down -> due to Hotmail's -> claim that they {their server} don't exist. -> -> Since it's my goal to reduce the amount of ancient computer -> hardware I have -> lying about, I'd really rather not become the owner of the -> electro-ecletica -> that he wanted. -> -> Dick -> Don't you fellows learn. This isn't the first time Will has pulled shenanigans like this after he's been kicked off of eBay. BTW, here's the requested email address for Will: ImATallWhiteGuy@aol.com 'til next time, Bill From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 23 18:57:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: paging Will Jennings In-Reply-To: <000301bfdd69$df4e04c0$92e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: In the interest of preventing future headaches for fellow ClassicCmpers, I must say that I have heard several complaints from at least two different people regarding the unreliability of Will Jennings. I myself have experienced a slight amount of flakiness coming from his direction. On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: > -> Dick Erlacher said something to the effect: > > -> If anybody has a valid [**NOT** Hotmail] address for Will > -> Jennings, please > -> let me know. He asked me to bid on a couple of eBay items > -> for him and now > -> that he's won on them my communication path has broken down > -> due to Hotmail's > -> claim that they {their server} don't exist. > -> > -> Since it's my goal to reduce the amount of ancient computer > -> hardware I have > -> lying about, I'd really rather not become the owner of the > -> electro-ecletica > -> that he wanted. > -> > -> Dick > -> > > Don't you fellows learn. This isn't the first time Will has pulled > shenanigans like this after he's been kicked off of eBay. > > BTW, here's the requested email address for Will: > ImATallWhiteGuy@aol.com > > 'til next time, > > Bill > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From retro at retrobits.com Fri Jun 23 22:51:53 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Hello all, I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become useless before too much longer? I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! Thanks in advance, Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Jun 23 23:23:00 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) References: <200006231535.LAA24472@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> <20000623182556.5638.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <395437A4.793094CE@idirect.com> >Eric Smith wrote: > Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > My point it, software *could* be licensed the way the contents of > > books are; it need not imply any ill-conceived notions that hinder > > transferrability, such as binding to a CPU. The holder of the original > > media could be the legal holder of the license, just as with books. > > The book analogy could work just fine, and the market has *not* > > rejected it. > And in fact Borland used to do exactly that. Their license explicitly > stated that the software was like a book, and that they were happy as long > the software was only run on one machine at any given time (just like a > book generally can only be read by one person at a time). Wish I had a > copy of the license to type in; as commercial software licenses go it was > one of the best. Jerome Fine replies: Borland's license agreement was VERY simple. I quote it here from a book on "Turbo C" Copyright 1988. The first paragraph dealt with archival copies. The second paragraph states: [By saying "just like a book," Borland means, for example that this software may be used by any number of people and may be freely moved from one computer location to another so long as there is NO POSSIBILITY of its being used at one location while it's being used at another.] I substituted CAPITALS for bold letters. In general, I very strongly agree that the essence of this license agreement was not only one of the best, but it was also one of the most fair and reasonable. Essentially, I would interpret the [...] to mean that possession of the original media (whether still readable or not) constituted absolute proof that the user could legally use the software on their computer so long as no other copies had been given to anyone else. Not that possession of the original media was required, only that having the original distribution was a clear statement that the user had legal possession of the software and was still allowed to use the software on a computer system so long as no copies had been given to anyone else AND that possession of the original distribution could then be transferred to ANYONE else without Borland being needed to provide permission - and charge a transfer fee. > They didn't explicitly state it, but I suppose that just as you might > tear a book in two so that two people can read different parts of it > simultaneously, perhaps you could simultaneously run two portion of the > Borland software on two computers. Not only that, but I wonder if someone ever tried to expand the interpretation. While I would not be able to do so myself, I have heard of many situations where a single book was used by MANY students when individual copies were not available. Some became adept in reading the book from the left, other from the right and a few could even read the book UPSIDE DOWN. Would that mean that a "shared" (I realize that back in 1988, shared disk drives were probably not generally available - and if they were would probably have cost more than extra distributions of the software) disk drive could have been used at one location connected by "short" cables to many computers? OR as an alternative, it would seem to be very possible to use a server which had the only disk copy and execute the software on each local computer by the many students reading the book from different positions at the same table? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I realize that the following is a bit long, but I would appreciate comments. But aside from such considerations, the general substance of the license was that Borland, even in 1988, was trusting large companies to have purchased sufficient copies of the software. PLUS, once purchased, there was no attempt of any kind to prevent a user from transferring the right to use the software to a different user on either the same hardware - if the computer system was sold - OR on even a completely different, but compatible, computer system so long as the original software was no longer installed and being used on the first computer system. The did not mean that Borland surrendered any rights with respect to the original sale of the original software on the original distribution. The ONLY difference I can see between the Borland concept and the DEC concept was that, at the VERY least, once the original hardware and Borland software possession was transferred, there was no attempt to collect a second fee for the USE of the same software (just as even DEC allowed the hardware possession to be transferred). Whereas if DEC software was involved, somehow it was considered that the same software could be used forever by the same company on the same hardware, but if possession of the "book" was transferred, suddenly a second fee for legal USE was required (i.e. could be squeezed from the second user of the hardware and software) - and especially so if a license transfer could not be arranged due the to lack of documentation which in many cases DEC refused to provide with the original sale. And while most companies did not care when the original software was purchased, problems did occur when possession of the hardware was transferred. Of course, it seems now that the goal for large corporations is to force a payment for every use of the software, i.e. a perpetual rental system. I had thought that this issue was settled when IBM was forced to allow a computer system to be purchased rather than requiring permanent rental. Of course, if the goal associated with charging for each use of some software was to keep the legal use revenue neutral until all pirated use was eliminated and then reduce the cost to legal users since the company was receiving far higher revenue, then I would agree. But I, and probably many others, suspect that the ultimate goal is to increase the cost even to legal users so that a monopoly situation will eventually develop which results in very few companies holding all the control to most of the items which are being distributed and per usage fees being charged for the use of proprietary software on proprietary hardware. PLUS, with distribution being so concentrated, there will be a severe reduction in the ability of some sources to achieve recognition. This already happens in many cases - I suspect that the film industry is only one example. For instance, if Microsoft had gained monopoly control of the internet via its browser and wanted to stop a boycott of its operating systems, all email urging such a boycott could end up being "lost" for some unexplained "reason". No wonder I get the impression that so many hobby users are so .... In most cases, I get the impression that most hobby users follow the Borland model with respect to the use of software in any case - which just means that Mentec/DEC/Compaq don't receive any additional revenue in any case. But the attitude develops (and is possibly encouraged) that it is OK to use software for hobby use even if it was not originally installed on that piece of DEC hardware. I for one, hope that the indications that Mentec seems to be addressing this aspect of hobby use of PDP-11 software will be done soon now, as seems to be the case and will also be reasonable both from the point of view of administration (there really does not need to be any) as well as cost. From my point of view, the hobby use of PDP-11 software under just the Supnik emulator was a valuable first step. Now we need to wait for a reasonable second step. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 23 23:45:58 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: Hi, I have 8? boxes of ten maxell DS/DD disk I will sell for $5 each plus shipping. These are brand new (still shrink-wrapped). Contact me OL if you are interested. clint vaxman@uswest.net On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > Thanks in advance, > > Earl Evans > retro@retrobits.com > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com > > > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 23 23:56:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? I don't know about the *best* place, but DiskDirect has them for $.25 ea in quantity of 10 and $.20 in Quantity of 100. Their site is www.disksdirect.com. > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? Shelf life has been demonstrated to be 29 years and more with good quality diskettes and moderate storage conditions. I think 5.25" drives in legacy machines will be around for some time. > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) Basically, it will not be successful! > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! Don't overlook getting used ones, bulk degaussing, peeling the labels, and starting all over again. - don From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Jun 24 05:56:16 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: Hello Earl On 23-Jun-00, you wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > Thanks in advance, > > Earl Evans > retro@retrobits.com > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com Interesting . . . I've used HD media in my Ozzie 1 and had no problems, but at 80 k per disk wet tissue would probably work too . . . I'm wondering myself where you can get 5.25 media anymore of any variety. I used to get disks out of MEI Micro but that has been years ago (3.5 DSDD). I occasionally use HD disks in my Amiga and haven't had any problems, at 880 k per disk. Might look at going-out-of-business sales at office supplies, etc. Somebody probably has cases of those things sitting around, useless for anything else. I have a similar problem with the large Syquest disks (44, 88, and 200 meg). Can't find them anywhere either . . . Does the lack of a hub reinforcement make a difference? I don't know . . . I know that 8" is still available for a PRICE! Caveat emptor I guess. Or find a 1581 drive that takes 3.5 disks . . . > > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 24 01:23:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? I often find them at thrift stores for pretty cheap (a buck for a box of ten). Many times I find a gaggle of used ones in a bag selling for a buck or so, but I often come across new in-the-box diskettes as well (sometimes still in shrink wrap). You can still probably order them from somewhere but I wouldn't be able to direct you to anywhere specific. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 24 06:18:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <000624071806.27e000b8@trailing-edge.com> >I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > >First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? Occasionally I find a wholesaler going out of business and selling thousands of boxes of 'em, at prices as low as 10 cents a box. But barring such a surplus find, you can buy them brand new from www.buy.com. At the moment you can get Maxell, Imation, and Verbatim at $4.95 a box from them, but I've seen prices as low as $2.95 a box. >Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the >shelf life? The Imation floppies I've gotten from buy.com were produced in the last year or two. So yes, it's still being made. > Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become >useless before too much longer? 5.25" drives, useless soon? I don't think so! I still use 14" removable hard drives! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 24 06:22:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <000624072216.27e000b8@trailing-edge.com> > I know that 8" is still available for a PRICE! That price isn't very high :-). Admittedly, I get them straight from the manufacturer in large lots, but the price is roughly one-fourth what I was paying in the early 80's, and that isn't even taking inflation into account! Tim. From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jun 24 05:32:03 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][ board? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000624063203.007b2a50@mail.wincom.net> Does anyone recognize an Apple ][ board, Interactive Structures Inc, a 34 pin connector, and an AM 25L04PC chip? The only number I could find is 3694 written in ink. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 24 08:20:46 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000622175105.00c094e0@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:14:17PM -0700 References: <003401bfdc9d$a5609650$7164c0d0@ajp166> <4.3.2.7.2.20000622175105.00c094e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000624092046.A13171@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:14:17PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >> The copyright means you can't make copies >>of it (other than limited amounts for reference with attribution) to sell >>or give away without expressed permission. > >Again, this isn't quite correct. The rights to make copies of a "work" >initially rest with the creator of that work. The creator (author what have >you) can then choose to grant limited subsets of those rights (or not) to >other people. I think Allison was talking about the "fair use" principle, which *does* allow you to publish small excerpt of copyrighted works without royalties under particular conditions. Book reviews, etc... This can be a gray area since people can disagree over how big an excerpt has to be before it's too big. You certainly can't publish an entire Stephen King novel, tack the line "I liked it!" on the end, and get away with it. John Wilson D Bit From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Jun 24 08:34:28 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A Message-ID: <3954B8E4.5B82ED3F@idirect.com> I would appreciate some help from anyone who knows about the difference between a: TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. I am able to get a TK50Z-GA working under a SCSI host adapter (CQD-220/TM) on a Qbus system (I set the SCSI ID=4) and I see a standard TK50 tape drive under RT-11. But, I also suspect that the TK50Z-FA is probably broken. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jun 24 10:18:13 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A In-Reply-To: <3954B8E4.5B82ED3F@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000624081813.0096a420@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:34 24-06-2000 -0400, Jerome Fine wrote: >I would appreciate some help from anyone who knows >about the difference between a: > >TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. My understanding: The -FA was designed to work only with a VAXStation 2000 (the 'Lunchbox' systems), while the -GA was designed to work (in theory) with any SCSI-based system. The difference takes the form of a different EPROM on the bridge board in the box, and the presence of DIP switches to set the SCSI ID in the -GA version. I have successfully converted an FA to a GA simply by changing the EPROM. Should you wish to do so, and you have access to EPROM erasing/programming equipment, I would be happy to E-attach you the appropriate image file. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 24 10:34:53 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? References: Message-ID: <008c01bfddf2$a551f860$b7711fd1@default> I passed on 3 Syquest 88's yesterday at $3 each used because I have no need. Again the thrift's are the best places here to find this can of stuff. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 5:56 AM Subject: Re: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? > Hello Earl > > On 23-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives > become > > useless before too much longer? > > > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Earl Evans > > retro@retrobits.com > > > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com > > Interesting . . . I've used HD media in my Ozzie 1 and had no problems, but > at 80 k per disk wet tissue would probably work too . . . > > I'm wondering myself where you can get 5.25 media anymore of any variety. I > used to get disks out of MEI Micro but that has been years ago (3.5 DSDD). > I occasionally use HD disks in my Amiga and haven't had any problems, at 880 > k per disk. Might look at going-out-of-business sales at office supplies, > etc. Somebody probably has cases of those things sitting around, useless > for anything else. > > I have a similar problem with the large Syquest disks (44, 88, and 200 meg). > Can't find them anywhere either . . . > > Does the lack of a hub reinforcement make a difference? I don't know . . . > > I know that 8" is still available for a PRICE! > > Caveat emptor I guess. Or find a 1581 drive that takes 3.5 disks . . . > > > > > > > Regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 24 10:31:13 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? References: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <008b01bfddf2$a45f5b00$b7711fd1@default> I see them all the time here at the thrift's, Goodwill had hundred's not long ago and no one wanted them so they were trashed.I saw 10 boxes yesterday at another thrift all new unopened. If you want me to pick up some email me off line at jrkeys@concentric.net. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 10:51 PM Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? > Hello all, > > I have a couple of questions regarding 5.25 inch, DS/DD disks... > > First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? > > Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the > shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become > useless before too much longer? > > I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD > media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more > complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) > So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can > find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! > > Thanks in advance, > > Earl Evans > retro@retrobits.com > > Enjoy Retrocomputing! > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 24 09:36:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <00b301bfdded$8b02fe00$7264c0d0@ajp166> >First, where is the best place to buy some new ones? I don't know, I have enough to keep me going for years. >Second, does any manufacturer still produce this media, and what is the >shelf life? Basically, what I'm asking here is, will our 5.25 drives become >useless before too much longer? Not likely. I have 5.25 media that is 20+ years and still good. It's likely you have things reversed, the drive may fail first. ;) >I remember a discussion on the group a while back regarding the use of HD >media in DD drives. After reading about two thousand messages more >complicated than quantum mechanics, I gave up trying to figure it out :-) >So now I've resigned myself to seek the newest 5.25 DS/DD disks that I can >find. Any help appreciated! Long live my Commodore 128! NO majik, the darker HD media is for 1.2mb use and the ligher brownish media is for all others. the other half is do not use 96tpi drives to *reliabily* write 48tpi media or the reverse (special projects and emergency cases may be a reasonable exception). If all else and it's possible, upgrade the drive used to a 3.5". Some systems can do this easily some can with some programming work, some cannot easily be modded. Above all else keep media in a cool dry place, avoid direct sunlight. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 24 09:54:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Licenses (was Re: Should I add a "Micro" PDP11/73 to the Herd?) Message-ID: <00b401bfdded$8bc9a960$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Would that mean that a "shared" (I realize that back in 1988, shared disk >drives were probably not generally available - and if they were would probably >have cost more than extra distributions of the software) disk drive could have >been used at one location connected by "short" cables to many computers? Ah but, they were available, LAPLINK, lantastic and ohers were around. It wasn't cheap but the SHARE.EXE was part of dos 3.3 and later. Compared to the costs of large disks then the price was appealing. >OR as an alternative, it would seem to be very possible to use a server >which had the only disk copy and execute the software on each local >computer by the many students reading the book from different positions >at the same table? Overhead projector? Schools used them. >But aside from such considerations, the general substance of the license >was that Borland, even in 1988, was trusting large companies to have >purchased sufficient copies of the software. PLUS, once purchased, there >was no attempt of any kind to prevent a user from transferring the right to >use the software to a different user on either the same hardware - if the >computer system was sold - OR on even a completely different, but >compatible, computer system so long as the original software was no >longer installed and being used on the first computer system. True but you left out one thing. Their total goal was a Plain Engilsh license. I read the DELPHI-5 (current) and it's understandable. Read some of the MS licences or others and time for an asprin. >For instance, if Microsoft had gained monopoly control of the internet via its >browser and wanted to stop a boycott of its operating systems, all email >urging such a boycott could end up being "lost" for some unexplained "reason". They are close with MSN being a backbone and IE being part of the OS. For some here that may remember. Back when, There was ABC TV, ABC FM radio and even ABC AM radio, all one company and network (same for NBC, CBS). The FCC saw fit to break that up as it represented a monopoly on communications. Yet we have MS (OS, APPS, content and Browser), MSN their network, and so on. Think about it. As to Mentec, a simple low cost non commercial license for what ever OS/Apps they currently own copyright to would be nice. Further a package of media, manuals and license for current (or one back versions) non commercial without support for a reasonable price would be attractive. then again I have no idea of the current price of a copy of RT-11 (Docs, media and commercial license) goes for. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 24 10:04:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A Message-ID: <00b501bfdded$8cc5bca0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >I would appreciate some help from anyone who knows >about the difference between a: > >TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. The long and short of it is nearly none and everything. the are the same mechanically, same boards, same drive same for everything save two things... SCSI address and one does not talk modern SCSI software protocal. IE: the difference is firmware on the SCSI to TK50 board. FYI: one is specifically for MV2000 and the other is useable on many later SCSI systems (other than MV2000). What I've forgotten is which is which. Allison From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Jun 24 13:49:22 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Message-ID: <32672228@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000624/659f8fbf/attachment-0001.bin From mrdos at swbell.net Sat Jun 24 14:45:26 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Message-ID: <000f01bfde14$bf782ee0$b3893cd8@compaq> I think that the original idea behind that compartment was that TI would release vocabulary modules that would fit in there, but I could be wrong. I saw a working TI-99 at a thrift store yesterday. It has a power supply, but I didn't get it because I already have one. I'll see if I can pick it up tomorrow. If so, you can have the power supply. -----Original Message----- From: Marion Bates To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 2:03 PM Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Heya, I recently picked up a TI-99/4A at the local thrift store, but couldn't find the power cable. Anyone got a spare or know where I might look online to find one? Also, I found with it the voice synthesis module. Like the Intellivision, it's a pass-through cartridge thing, but there's a flip-up door and some sort of compartment in it -- what the heck is THAT for? Thanks... -- MB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000624/b5908a30/attachment-0001.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 24 14:17:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <011001bfdd8f$894a4130$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at Jun 23, 0 08:51:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000624/75a41b10/attachment-0001.ksh From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Jun 24 21:39:47 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where to get ancient media Message-ID: <3a.6ef3f30.2686caf3@aol.com> Just a note to the group: Maxell still produces 5.25" DS/DD media with a "lifetime" warranty. (Lifetime of what -- me or the diskette???) They are available for $5 per box of ten from MCM Electronics: www.mcmelectronics.com or 1-800-543-4330 As Allison mentioned, the diskettes will probably outlast the drives! Regards, Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 24 22:04:17 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > DD drives or that DD disks can be used in HD drives _as HD disks_ (most > HD drives can also handle DD disks, but only to store the amount of data > that you'd get from a DD drive anyway). One word of caution regarding the use of DD disks in HD drives: it's been my experience that which this may appear to work, problems sometimes arise when one attempts to read the data written in a DD disk by an HD drive. It's only reliable as long as you're using the same drive; on quite a few occasions over the years I've had this happen when attempting this. So, it's safest to write to DD disks with DD drives, although this should be readable by any HD drive. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 24 22:10:04 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <00b301bfdded$8b02fe00$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > If all else and it's possible, upgrade the drive used to a 3.5". Some Not necessarily a good idea. 3.5" floppies aren't as durable as 5-1/4" floppies. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ernestls at home.com Sat Jun 24 23:56:54 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:58 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000623155238.3b8fbeba@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? Just curious, Ernest From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 24 23:09:45 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Jun 25 00:29:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. >It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? > >Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( You could give it a try on your grammophone. ;) Hard to guess what is worth keeping, otherwise people would keep it. I found what I "thought" would be a GREAT RESCUE, a small stack of still sealed brand new RCA CED video discs. No interest. I may give them one last chance on eBay, but I have a long list of stuff on a similar "death row". Of course I will be posting my list a couple places as well. Stay tuned MAJOR clearing out between now and the weekend of 7/8 (7/8 is our once a year garage sale day in Condo Hell). From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jun 25 00:42:32 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Question about TK50Z-?A In-Reply-To: <00b501bfdded$8cc5bca0$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000624224136.00c80780@208.226.86.10> At 11:04 AM 6/24/00 -0400, you wrote: > >TK50Z-GA and a TK50Z-FA. -GA can be made to work on any SCSI-1 bus (I've got two) -FA only works on the MV2000 (AFAIK) --Chuck From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 25 01:23:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer References: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <004401bfde6d$f04f65c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Hi, Ernest: You'll get a lot of answers to this one, but a lot depends on the definition of "better" that you use. I've recently been fiddling with techniques for taking what was, back in 1982, considered a pretty good implementation of the general case of Z80 application, e.g. the Ferguson Big Board, which used the standard Z80, and NOT the Z80-A which ran at 4 MHz instead of the standard Z80's 2.5 MHz. I've got a number of these boards so I can test the various mod's separately, and ultimately intend to use the on-board 20 MHz clock to drive a faster Z80 with the existing peripherals, since they are used relatively seldom, with the exception of the video circuitry, but that doesn't use any of the sadly inadequate Z80 peripheral devices. The Z80 SBC market was driven mainly by two factors, namely memory speed, and device cost. The Z80 was pretty cheap in itself, but its peripherals, which people in general had decided were pretty good, (I wasn't one of them, by the way.) Because of the hype put into the support chips, they were used in place of potentially better chips because they did make the design dirt simple and the supported some features that other devices didn't support, e.g. Z80 mode-2 interrupts. With today's technology you can build a board with all the capabilities of the Ferguson BigBoard, i.e four parallel ports four serial ports, local video and using a parallel keyboard rather than a terminal, using a single device, i.e. an FPGA or CPLD (take your pick)and one memory IC. When you're done, you 'll have a CPU that operates at about 25 MHz, a double/single density FDC, the parallel and serial capabilities and other features of the Ferguson board. I don't know whether the result will be better. At the one-of prices (typically 1000x the advertised price) for Xilinx FPGA's capable of this, the device won't be cheaper and unless you go to pretty high volume, that won't change significantly with other FPGA makers. CPLD's are typically much less costly, costing maybe $350 @Q1 for a device capable of doing the whole job aside from memory. If you roll your own, you can probably improve somewhat on the 25 MHz, going maybe as far as 50, but probably not with a Z80 architecture, and certainly not if you stick with the rather complex logic provided but not needed in the Z80 SIO. Since I was a logic designer back in the early days of the Z80, I have to say we can design better circuits today even when we use the technology available back then. My assertion, of course, is that we can, indeed, make a better computer, regardles of what your definition of "better" happens to be, provided that we know in advance what that target is. This is true because using the newer technology has taught us a lot and because we've had 20+ years' additional experience. If we capitalize on the later packaging technology we can make the devices smaller, and using newer power-supply technology, we can cut down on power consumption by using fewer external supplies and using the newer manufacturing technology, we can reduce overall power consumption. In 1979, we had all the LSI/MSI/SSI devices that were used in the best applications of the early-mid '80's. We also had the small surface mount technology, though not the memory density of the '82-83 timeframe. The "fast" Z80 in 1979 was the 'A' version, while, by 1981, there was the 6 MHz 'B' version. Unfortunately there was no complete support peripheral set until somewhat later. In '82 they came out with an 8 MHz "H" version. This was never supported with peripherals until the CMOS versions came along. Those 1979 models work as well today as they ever did. With I/O limitations imposed on PC's, I'm looking to use my old S-100 boxes once more for the measurement and control systems I build from time to time. Condensed versions of these old timers may come back. . . . Probably not, but who knows. Now, what was it you wanted to "improve? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernest To: Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 10:56 PM Subject: Building a better "old" computer > > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > Just curious, > > Ernest > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 25 01:31:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Where to get ancient media In-Reply-To: <3a.6ef3f30.2686caf3@aol.com> Message-ID: >Just a note to the group: > >Maxell still produces 5.25" DS/DD media with a "lifetime" warranty. >(Lifetime of what -- me or the diskette???) Third possibility, as long as their producing it and have any in stock :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun Jun 25 03:19:05 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: ; from Mike Ford on Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:29:22PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000625011904.C5850@electron.quantum.int> On Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:29:22PM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > >I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. > >It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? > > > >Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( I don't even remember what the music was like on that movie... but I've got some stuff I want to convert to digital format one of these days. I need a good quality A/D converter, better than the typical soundcard. The "professional" ones are too pricey. An old DAT might be OK, maybe even if it's got tape transport problems the A/D would still be useable. I got the Tangerine Dream Phaedra LP, in really good condition, thinking that was a score, and then realized I already had it on CD. Doh! I wonder if the LP sounds any better on a good player. > > Hard to guess what is worth keeping, otherwise people would keep it. I > found what I "thought" would be a GREAT RESCUE, a small stack of still > sealed brand new RCA CED video discs. No interest. I may give them one last > chance on eBay, Huh? those should do OK on ebay I would think. What movies are they? I've got a CED player but I don't think it works. A friend bought it, took it apart, and it wasn't working anymore when he put it back together, so he gave it to me. :-( I'm looking for a laserdisk player, since I got the Star Wars trilogy that way (since it's not out on DVD). -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Jun 25 05:36:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <20000625011904.C5850@electron.quantum.int> References: ; from Mike Ford on Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:29:22PM -0700 Message-ID: >I don't even remember what the music was like on that movie... but I've >got some stuff I want to convert to digital format one of these days. >I need a good quality A/D converter, better than the typical soundcard. >The "professional" ones are too pricey. An old DAT might be OK, maybe >even if it's got tape transport problems the A/D would still be useable. >I got the Tangerine Dream Phaedra LP, in really good condition, thinking >that was a score, and then realized I already had it on CD. Doh! I >wonder if the LP sounds any better on a good player. IMHO you need a rig with "original anyway" pricetag of around a minimum of $5,000 to extract the best the LP has to offer. By rig I mean the turntable, arm, cartridge, and phono preamp, and spending the money is no gaurantee of the performance, just what money spent wisely can acchieve. A really quite good ADC OTOH is maybe $2,000. Here are the results of some fair testing of soundcards. http://www.rockpark.com/soundcards/intro.htm >Huh? those should do OK on ebay I would think. What movies are they? I'll run my full deathlist past the whole group, off the top of my head I remember at least "My Favorite Year". From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Jun 25 11:48:52 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: Hello Ernest On 24-Jun-00, you wrote: > > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > Just curious, > > Ernest IMHO, it should be possible, if they wanted to build one. But the proliferation of wintel boxes proves that the market moved elsewhere. I think VW found that out when they phased out the original Beetle. The new Mexican built Beetles are better than the ones from the 50's and 60's but do you really want one that bad? Or another example is vacuum tubes. The only place they still thrive today is in esoteric audio amplifiers. Look at the prices of them though . . . > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 06:45:13 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: RA81 problem :( Message-ID: I haven't used my MicroVAX II in some time, and one of it's RA81s wont spin up. It starts to spin, for about 1 second, and then cuts out and, after pressing the 'fault button' it leaves the fault light on and the 'B' light flashing. According to the RA81 user manual the cause is 'spin error' (I could probably have told _them_ that ;-). Can anyone give me any advice on whether it is possible to resurrect the HDA? If not, I have another drive which has no fans so I can make a good one out of the two but the one which has gone down contains my only copy of VMS. Is it drag in the bearings which is causing it to cut out whilst the motor is accelerating it? If so is it possible to lubricate them without opening up the HDA? -- Regards Pete From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 07:07:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <014f01bfdea0$2de0e3f0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, >would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the >same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? Yes. Though finding the parts would be hard. >I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what >they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it >better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to >do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? For pre micro processor... there were designs that did thig with transistors and later SSI that were way ahead of the pack so the answer was yes and no also. For the z80 case: Yes and no. Some designs the designer was doing the best they could though the parts were more capable. Many cases the goal was to meet a price so that limits you. There were some very capable designs. But, using the same parts you could have done better then assuming the budget (size, power, $$$$) allowed it. Can you do better now using current parts and reusing old z80s, yes. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 07:21:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <015001bfdea0$2e85fd90$7264c0d0@ajp166> >of "better" that you use. I've recently been fiddling with techniques for >taking what was, back in 1982, considered a pretty good implementation of >the general case of Z80 application, e.g. the Ferguson Big Board, which used >the standard Z80, and NOT the Z80-A which ran at 4 MHz instead of the >standard Z80's 2.5 MHz. I've got a number of these boards so I can test the In 1982 that was a low end example. DECs VT180 was a 4 serial port, 4mhz, no wait states With DD floppy design. It was ment to go in a VT100 so video was not needed. My NS* S100 crate in 1978 was running at 4mhz even. In the z80 world there were those that used Z80 peripherals and live with the limits they imposed and those that went with other parts. What was the limits? Price, they were not cheap and they were SLOW. By 1982 a Z80 not running at at least 4mhz was considered slow and by 1983 that would be 6mhz. Parts existed to do that. >in place of potentially better chips because they did make the design dirt >simple and the supported some features that other devices didn't support, >e.g. Z80 mode-2 interrupts. Mode 2 was supportable without Z80 parts, easy and cheap to do. >the Ferguson BigBoard, i.e four parallel ports four serial ports, local >video and using a parallel keyboard rather than a terminal, using a single >device, i.e. an FPGA or CPLD (take your pick)and one memory IC. When you're >done, you 'll have a CPU that operates at about 25 MHz, a double/single >density FDC, the parallel and serial capabilities and other features of the >Ferguson board. I don't know whether the result will be better. Try a Z180 part at 33mhz, SCC or other all on one chip like the SMC92667 and static ram on a 3x4" board. Takes very little glue to do that. The question goes mroe to price and creative engineering. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 06:31:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) Message-ID: <014b01bfdea0$2aef9060$7264c0d0@ajp166> Well you left out all the caveats. I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives. Allison -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 11:06 PM Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) >On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: >> DD drives or that DD disks can be used in HD drives _as HD disks_ (most >> HD drives can also handle DD disks, but only to store the amount of data >> that you'd get from a DD drive anyway). > >One word of caution regarding the use of DD disks in HD drives: it's >been my experience that which this may appear to work, problems >sometimes arise when one attempts to read the data written in a DD disk >by an HD drive. It's only reliable as long as you're using the same >drive; on quite a few occasions over the years I've had this happen when >attempting this. So, it's safest to write to DD disks with DD drives, >although this should be readable by any HD drive. > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 06:33:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? Message-ID: <014c01bfdea0$2bab8d60$7264c0d0@ajp166> No your wrong. I have an AMPROLB, Kaypro (with Turborom) and a VT180 board set up that way. If you having problems with 3.5" media, stop using recycled AOL disks and trash out the bad drives. Allison -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 11:12 PM Subject: Re: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? >On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: >> If all else and it's possible, upgrade the drive used to a 3.5". Some > >Not necessarily a good idea. 3.5" floppies aren't as durable as 5-1/4" >floppies. > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > From dwduck2000 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 25 08:29:57 2000 From: dwduck2000 at earthlink.net (John Duarte) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Tech Support Fun References: <3.0.1.16.20000622160148.0b4f9094@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000e01bfdea9$7cc52f40$7f151d3f@pavilion> George, that was some good stuff. So I guess I did open it. The One The ONLY, The Biffer From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 08:48:57 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE7F@TEGNTSERVER> > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an excellent "old" new computer. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 08:52:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE80@TEGNTSERVER> > Well you left out all the caveats. > > I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives > are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them > jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this > mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives. Does setting that jumper cause them to write double-tracks, then (as ISTR that the HD drives wrote tracks that were half-width, and someone used to sell a software package that wrote an HD-width track, stepped the head, then wrote an adjacent HD-width track to create pseudo-DD tracks)? Hey, precisely what jumper is that? -doug q From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 25 09:06:58 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer References: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <39561202.4DC7A253@ix.netcom.com> Even better.. Today you could use one of the modern chips (pentium) to emulate the Z80, probably at unheard of speeds, with full access to all the internal registers (after all the pentium would be keeping those registers in memory somewhere..) You could build a machine with a live control panel, ie you can examine and deposit to memory while a program is running. Using original parts we may not be able to make a better computer than then, but using modern parts, perhaps we can make it smaller and faster, even using a Z80 memory is denser (and cheaper) today than then, right? Ernest wrote: > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > Just curious, > > Ernest From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 25 10:39:17 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer References: Message-ID: <395627A5.2345F927@roanoke.infi.net> Can't let the vacuum tube comment pass without tossing in a couple of cents worth of my own. Tubes are indeed alive and well. There are numerous new production tubes available these days [Chinese, Russian and several Middle European plants], as well as MILLIONS of old stock stuff still kicking around. My area of speciality is WW I Navy equipment and it is not a huge problem to find New/Old Stock tubes from the 1918- 1920 period at reasonable [sorta,that is] prices. Lots of activity in restoring old radios, audio gear and vintage test equipment. The "high-end" esoteric audio field is only the lunatic fringe of tube technology. Lots of activity in more moderate priced stuff. Just as many guys find pleasure in restoring and using older tube audio gear as do those playing with old computers. Probably a fair number more actually. Craig Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > Hello Ernest > > On 24-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > > > Based on what the current computer industry knows about building > computers, > > would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the > > same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? > > > > I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with > what > > they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do > it > > better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to > > do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? > > > > Just curious, > > > > Ernest > > IMHO, it should be possible, if they wanted to build one. But the > proliferation of wintel boxes proves that the market moved elsewhere. I > think VW found that out when they phased out the original Beetle. The new > Mexican built Beetles are better than the ones from the 50's and 60's but do > you really want one that bad? > > Or another example is vacuum tubes. The only place they still thrive today > is in esoteric audio amplifiers. Look at the prices of them though . . . > > > > > Regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 25 10:39:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE7F@TEGNTSERVER>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE7F@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000625113918.A15463@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an >excellent "old" new computer. Actually last time I checked, you could only *order* that machine, not buy one, as they didn't/don't exist yet (still debugging the prototype). And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different machine stuck in a familiar-looking box. So it doesn't address the original poster's point of building a better-than-1979 machine using 1979 components. Re that idea, a couple of things leap to mind: - Backplane busses could have been done a lot more carefully, e.g. differential signal pairs, or at the very least O.C. with terminators at both ends (worked well for the Unibus). - Doing fancy timing (e.g. RAS-CAS) using RC delays, one-shots, analog delay lines, lots of gates in series etc. was a Bad Idea. Using a few flip-flops clocked by a fast xtal clock might require an extra chip or two, but once you get it working it will keep on working. - SCSI-1/SCSI-2, IDE, and probably other supposedly "modern" interfaces could have been done with 1979 parts. At the time, the expense of giving each peripheral its own CPU (or microcontroller at least) would have been prohibitive, but if money were no object it would have been nice to have some more open standards catch on, since the market was pretty fragmented for no good reason. Floppies were absolute hell in this regard too. - Things might have been more stable if microcomputers had separated the ideas of "CPU bus" and "peripheral bus" earlier on. For the longest time, the peripheral bus was always just a buffered version of the CPU bus, which led to lots of timing problems and incompatibilities when you changed to a different or faster CPU. But having something that's easy to interface and has simple timing, like what the ISA bus became (after having the same problem for a while), would have been a good thing, as long as it's clear that this bus is for things *other* than main memory and the main system disk drive. It's nice being able to build a fancy slow peripheral (ADC, ROM burner, whatever) just once and use it for 20 years. - Something like PCI plug & play, only greatly simplified, would have been a very nice thing, so that software would always have an easy way to find out the hardware config by just asking. This could just be a small PROM with some kind of radial select mechanism. John Wilson D Bit From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 25 11:08:14 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Find Update Message-ID: <009b01bfdebf$91d776c0$e1721fd1@default> Well finally got all of the stuff off the van and into storage, plus picked up some other goodies at the thrift's in the last couple days. Here the short list minus items not 10 years old or older. 1. Apple RGB monitor model A9M0308 2. Computereyes Video Digitizer B/W for the Mac 3. Box full Apple cards for the Apple II series. 4. Box of early Mac mice and cables 5. HP Thinkjet model 2225D 6. Kodak DataShow in box cat # 809-3346 7. TI Silent 700 Data Terminal with the adapter not tested yet. 8. HP Apollo model 715/50 9. IBM 3196 Display Station Problem Solving Guide 10. Another HP 9144 16 Track model 9144A 11. HPJet Direct cart 12. Epson (HX20) mod for 3M and renamed Myocare Plus Programmer model 6800 with a strange cable made by LEMO. 13. DiskDrive Exerciser by Magnetic Peripherals with the following numbers on it; TB-118A, PN 77833135E, Series code 02. No power supply with it and it looks to have a strange connector. Anyone know about this unit ? Again that's the short list due ages of other items, so it turned out to be a good week for collecting. John Keys From transit at lerctr.org Sun Jun 25 11:11:01 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth In-Reply-To: <32672228@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: On 24 Jun 2000, Marion Bates wrote: > > Also, I found with it the voice synthesis module. Like the Intellivision, it's a > pass-through cartridge thing, but there's a flip-up door and some sort of > compartment in it -- what the heck is THAT for? > TI, at one time, was planning to offer additional speech words through plug-in rom modules. (The basic Speech Synthesizer only has about 250 words in it). TI changed its mind, and offered additional words via the "Terminal Emulator" cartridge. From wanderer at bos.nl Sun Jun 25 13:09:36 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator Message-ID: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl> Hello All, When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock option and then mount it under RSX, it complains, telling me that it is an alignment pack! Is there a way to get around this problem? Using FMT does not help either, a similar message is returned. When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 11:16:00 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER> > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg > >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) > >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an > >excellent "old" new computer. > > Actually last time I checked, you could only *order* that machine, not > buy one, as they didn't/don't exist yet (still debugging the prototype). > And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different > machine stuck in a familiar-looking box. So it doesn't address the > original poster's point of building a better-than-1979 machine using > 1979 components. Point to John: the machine offered for sale is called an IMSAI Series Two, not an IMSAI 8080. However, its arguable that many existing IMSAI 8080s ceased being IMSAI 8080s when the owners stuck in a Cromemco ZPU, a TDL Z-80 CPU board, or somesuch. However, quoting from the main web page: : Delivery is currently 6 to 8 weeks from the date of order. : Please check with us for confirmation of shipping date. : : Assembled IMSAI products are shipped factory assembled : and supplied with a no-hassle two-year warranty on parts : and labor UNLESS specified otherwise. See the warranty : details on our ORDER page. Now, I don't have a kilobuck laying around with which to test these statements. But as to my original statement, clearly, people spending $1200 for an original either have little interest in running the thing, or, at very least, want an "original" more so that they can say it is an "original" over and above its value as a working system. If its value as a working system is more important, they'll consider buying the Series Two. And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer field, and I think I'll have to write up my experience with Processor Technology and the Sol as an example of this (I still have all the "soon" letters I got from them). regards, doug quebbeman From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 10:23:18 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Guy needs help building collection in UK Message-ID: Can anyone in the UK help this guy out? Reply-to: dh8987mary3@netscapeonline.co.uk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:46:50 -0700 From: DAVID HOLDSWORTH Subject: VCF Feedback! i would like to ask if any one in the uk could donate any old computers to my small colection.as i aam dissabled and i love old pc.s computers of any kind .i also collect old radios dating back to 1945 especially valved radios working or not.please help if you can thankss my phone no is 01493 300955 . uk Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:11:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <002201bfdebb$aa77c5d0$7564c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:55 AM Subject: RE: Building a better "old" computer >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an >excellent "old" new computer. First Z280 didn't need bank switch as it had a 24bit MMU. Second if it has Z280 production would be hard as Zilong endof lifed it some 6 years ago. Likely is Z180 or Z380. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:20:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) Message-ID: <002301bfdebb$ab30b590$7564c0d0@ajp166> From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:56 AM Subject: RE: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) >> I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives >> are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them >> jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this >> mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives. ^^^^^^^^^^ I repeat for the impaired 96 TPI. > >Does setting that jumper cause them to write double-tracks, NO. >then (as ISTR that the HD drives wrote tracks that were >half-width, and someone used to sell a software package Yes, thats the ppoint of using 96TPI drives... to get more tracks. >that wrote an HD-width track, stepped the head, then >wrote an adjacent HD-width track to create pseudo-DD >tracks)? You can but, the reliability of the read data sucks to be blunt. I said that you ccan do this in an earlier post if you needed some special project hack to get you by. I don't as a good 48tpi drive does a far better job and swapping it is no big deal. I used 5.25 96tpi two sided double density for one reason easy to get and use storage space. That mode does 720 or 782k depening on the formatting were an older 48tpi drive will do 360k. Where 1.2mb used funky media, data rates and all that are not easily found on NON-PC systems. Back in the old days using DD on a 96tpi drive was called QD. >Hey, precisely what jumper is that? I ave five different versions of the FD55-GF drives and they are all different. So I did a lot of guessing and tried them until it worked. A manual would have helped. I also ahve a few FD55Fs (also 96tpi DD two sided without ability to do the oddball 1.2mb format). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:31:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <002401bfdebb$abfa6e30$7564c0d0@ajp166> >Even better.. Today you could use one of the modern chips (pentium) to emulate >the Z80, probably at unheard of speeds, with full access to all the internal >registers (after all the pentium would be keeping those registers in memory >somewhere..) You could and then you have one of the Z80 emulators. >Using original parts we may not be able to make a better computer than then, but >using modern parts, perhaps we can make it smaller and faster, even using a Z80 >memory is denser (and cheaper) today than then, right? using a standard Z84C010 (cmos 10mhz) and common cache rams I could easily do a z80 1mb 10mhz machine. It's not hard. Use a Z180S00 and 33mhz is possible. With cheap, dense fast static memory most of the old designs get real simple and can go faster. The best example is a proto I've build using a Z84C50 (z80/10mhz with clock + wait state management, 1k ram) in a clone of the amproLB using static ram (eliminates 15 DIPS) making is a fairly bare board. It runs at 8mhz due to limits in the SIO and CTC parts I had. I wanted it to run the same boot and BIOS so I used what I had. If I were to do the latest and greatest I'd go with Z380 as it will run Z80 native and make the IO a z180 slave, then the only limits would eb the how fast can the Z380 go (20mhz is common part and it executes Z80 instructions in about half the clocks). Allison > >Ernest wrote: > >> Based on what the current computer industry knows about building computers, >> would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the >> same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available? >> >> I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with what >> they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do it >> better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to >> do it better now, using the same chips, etc.? >> >> Just curious, >> >> Ernest > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 10:39:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <002501bfdebb$acb64420$7564c0d0@ajp166> >Actually last time I checked, you could only *order* that machine, not >buy one, as they didn't/don't exist yet (still debugging the prototype). >And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different >machine stuck in a familiar-looking box. So it doesn't address the >original poster's point of building a better-than-1979 machine using >1979 components. Amen! >- Backplane busses could have been done a lot more carefully, e.g. > differential signal pairs, or at the very least O.C. with terminators > at both ends (worked well for the Unibus). Actually the S100 was cleaned up a bit and would run nicely at 8mb/s for split or 16mb/s for unified word mode. But multibus and STDbus were already better standards. >- Doing fancy timing (e.g. RAS-CAS) using RC delays, one-shots, analog delay > lines, lots of gates in series etc. was a Bad Idea. Using a few flip-flops > clocked by a fast xtal clock might require an extra chip or two, but once > you get it working it will keep on working. The better boards did that, alone with 4layer etch. Dram and two layers was at best problematic. >- SCSI-1/SCSI-2, IDE, and probably other supposedly "modern" interfaces > could have been done with 1979 parts. At the time, the expense of giving > each peripheral its own CPU (or microcontroller at least) would have been > prohibitive, but if money were no object it would have been nice to have > some more open standards catch on, since the market was pretty fragmented > for no good reason. Floppies were absolute hell in this regard too. Typical system with a HD in the 79-81 timeframe liekly had two CPUs one for the HD alone! Teletek, Konan for example. There wer floppy cards with local cpu too to further unburden the main cpu. >- Things might have been more stable if microcomputers had separated the > ideas of "CPU bus" and "peripheral bus" earlier on. For the longest time, > the peripheral bus was always just a buffered version of the CPU bus, depends on the bus std. Multibus and STDbus for example. > which led to lots of timing problems and incompatibilities when you > changed to a different or faster CPU. But having something that's easy > to interface and has simple timing, like what the ISA bus became (after > having the same problem for a while), would have been a good thing, as ISA was multibus with broken interrupts and no bus ack handshake, same timing and interface otherwise. More interesting formfactor though. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Jun 25 11:44:11 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE84@TEGNTSERVER> > >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg > >of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?) > >processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an > >excellent "old" new computer. > > First Z280 didn't need bank switch as it had a 24bit MMU. Second if > it has Z280 production would be hard as Zilong endof lifed it some 6 > years ago. > > Likely is Z180 or Z380. You're right, it's Z180, I wrote that part of the post before doublechecking the web page, then didn't edit the earlier writing. -dq From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sun Jun 25 12:15:22 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TI-99 power, voice synth Message-ID: <32682846@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: TI, at one time, was planning to offer additional speech words through plug-in rom modules. (The basic Speech Synthesizer only has about 250 words in it). TI changed its mind, and offered additional words via the "Terminal Emulator" cartridge. --- end of quote --- Wow -- I need to take another look. Owen said the same thing yesterday, and like I told him, I can't even see where a plug-in module would make contact with anything but plastic. Weird. Thanks for the info! -- MB From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 25 14:05:49 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo's message of "Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:06:05 -0400" References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> <200006161450.HAA18667@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <394A8291.DBF5C0FC@cornell.edu> <3.0.2.32.20000619000605.006b9ee0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200006251905.MAA49694@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Carlos Murillo wrote: > Well, I made the cable and plugged it into a terminal. The > right voltages appear on the correct lines. However, > the card never asserts DTR or RTS when I turn the computer on. I think that makes sense -- it looks like DTR and RTS are under program control (i.e. it's up to software to set the appropriate control register bits). > I also discovered that the HD in the 7946 is busted > (haven't opened it yet)-the "online" light doesn't come on, > but the "fault" light does. It seems to have trouble > spinning up. So, loading an OS is out of the question > for a while. Is it possible to at least run some tests > and have it output diagnostics to one of the BACI cards? I suspect it depends on what loader ROMs are installed in the computer. There is a loader ROM that supports booting from cartridge tape drives in an attached 264X terminal. In the meantime, I've keyed in the sample program from the manual (at the end of this message). Turning it into executable code and loading that into the 1000E is left as an exercise for the reader, at least 'til I find time to figure out how to do that sort of thing. Others who know are welcome to chime in! > There is a sheet of paper glued to the front panel with instructions > on how to reboot the system; it says to load the S/s register > with ones in bits 15,14,9, and 6, then hit the store, preset, > some other button, then preset again and finally the run button. Unfortunately, most of the 21xx documentation I have here at home right now is for 2100s, not 21MXs (which are a whole lot closer to 1000s), so I'm just guessing as to what that tells the machine to do, but I expect it's instructions for selecting a given loader ROM (and maybe device) and starting the boot. So...I'll try to keep this in mind for the next foray into storage. What I probably need to look for is the 21MX or 1000 E-Series operating and reference manual, instead of the installation and service manual that I have in front of me. --- cut here --- ASMB,A,B,L,T ORG 100B * ****12966 SAMPLE PROGRAM************************* *THE PROGRAM BEGINS BY CLEARING ALL ADDRESSES OF THE *SPECIAL CHARACTER RAM TO ZEROS.THE 12966 THEN IS *ENABLED TO RECEIVE MODE,1200 BAUD.THE USER ENTERS A *MINIMUM OF 64 CHARACTERS FROM THE TERMINAL KEYBOARD *(HP2640 OR SIMILAR TERMINAL). WHEN BUFFER HALF FULL *(64 CHARS.) IS DETECTED,THE CHARS. ARE TRANSFER FROM *THE FIFO BUFFER OF THE 12966 TO THE CPU. WHEN THIS *TRANSFER IS COMPLETE THE CPU HALTS (HLT 01).THE USER *PRESSES 'PRESET' & 'RUN', THE 12966 GOES INTO THE *TRANSMIT MODE. THE CPU BUFFER (64 CHARS.) IS SENT TO *THE 12966 FIFO BUFFER. WHEN THIS TRANSFER IS COMPLETED *THE 12966 TRANSMITS TO THE TERMINAL UNTIL BUFFER EMPTY *STATUS FLAG SETS. THE CPU NOW HALTS (HLT 02),PRESSING *'RUN' RESETARTS THE PROGRAM. * * A EQU 0 B EQU 1 SCT EQU 12B 12966 IS IN SELECT CODE 12B SAVA BSS 1 SAVB BSS 1 COUNT BSS 1 SIZE DEC 64 64 CHARACTERS BHF OCT 1000 CW3 OCT 030023 CW4R OCT 040011 CW4T OCT 140411 CW5 OCT 050077 CW6 OCT 060000 PAT OCT 777 DAB. DEF DAB CLEAR OCT 060400 ORG 1000B DAB BSS 400 * * ORG 200B START LDA CW4T MASTER RESET,INITIALIZE TRANSMIT OTA SCT LDA CW6 CLEAR OUT SPECIAL CHAR RAM R1 OTA SCT INA CPA CLEAR CHECK IF SPECIAL CHAR RAM IS CLEAR RSS YES IT IS,CONTINUE WITH PROGRAM JMP R1 NO IT ISN'T,CONTINUE CLEARING OVER LDA SIZE SETUP AND INITIALIZE CHAR COUNTER CMA,INA 2'S COMP. STA COUNT LDA CW5 LOAD WORD 5,CLEAR FLAGS OTA SCT LDA CW3 LOAD WORD 3,1 STOP BIT,8 DATA BITS OTA SCT ECHO ON,NO PARITY LDA CW4R LOAD WORD 4,RECEIVE MODE,1200 BAUD OTA SCT CHECK STC SCT,C SET CONTROL 12966 SFS SCT CHECK IF STATUS FLAG SET JMP *-1 NO,NONE IS SET,CONTINUE CLC SCT YES,FLAG HAS SET LIA SCT GET STATUS WORD AND BHF CHECK FOR BUFFER HALF FULL SZA,RSS JMP CHECK BHF NOT SET AS YET LDA CW5 BHF SET,CLEAR STATUS FLAGS OTA SCT LDB DAB. SETUP CPU BUFFER ADDRESS STC SCT,C SET CONTROL 12966 T1 LIA SCT GET A CHARACTER FROM FIFO AND PAT MASK OUT UNWANTED BITS STA B,I STORE CHAR INTO CPU BUFFER INB ISZ COUNT INCREMENT COUNT,COUNT=64? JMP T1 NO,GET NEXT CHARACTER HLT 01 YES,CPU BUFFER IS FULL ***PRESS 'PRESET' AND 'RUN' TO PUT 12966 INTO TRANSMIT *MODE. * NOP LDA CW4T SETUP 12966 TO TRANSMIT @1200 BAUD OTA SCT LDA CW5 CLEAR BUFFERS OTA SCT LDA SIZE SETUP CHAR COUNTER CMA,INA 2'S COMP. STA COUNT LDB DAB. SETUP BUFFER ADDRESS STC SCT,C T2 LDA B,I GET A CHARACTER OTA SCT PUT IT IN THE FIFO BUFFER INB ISZ COUNT INCREMENT COUNT,COUNT=64? JMP T2 NO GET NEXT CHAR!!! LDA CW5 YES,LOAD W TO CLEAR BUFF OTA SCT HALF FULL STC SCT,C SET CONTROL,START TRANSMIT SFS SCT IS BUFFER EMPTY? JMP *-1 NO,CONTINUE SENDING HLT 02 YES, IT IS EMPTY,HALT CPU!! JMP START RESTART 12966 END --- cut here --- -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 25 14:50:36 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: "R. D. Davis"'s message of "Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:55:17 -0400 (EDT)" References: Message-ID: <200006251950.MAA50967@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Well, I've made the initial tests... seems that the problem may be > before the regulators and after the fuse. Since I didn't have a 21W, Based on the following: > Hooking up the VOM, I got a reading of about 3.5mV for the 5V supply > and between that and zero for everything else. So, it's not completely > dead, but, close to it. And, yes, the fan is spinning. ...I think you may be right. The flowchart goes on to ask: "Is >= 0.6 Volts measured from A3A6TP1 to A3A1TP1? WARNING!! Use VM with Floating GND". If the answer to this question is no, you're supposed to replace the preregulator board (A3A1) or the control board (A3A5). Else, the next question is whether fuse A3A6F1 is blown or missing, in which case you're supposed to replace the fuse, else replace transistor A3A6Q1. Then you go back and look for +5V CPU on the crossover board again. How to decode some of those numbers: Leading A3 is the power supply. A1 is the preregulator control board, which is a vertical board plugged into the power supply motherboard just behind the terminal block near the front of the 1000E. A5 is the control board; it's the vertical board all the way at the back of the power supply. A6 is the power supply mother board. A6F1 looks like it should be a fuse a little bit behind A1, and A6Q1 looks like it should be the largish transistor closest to that fuse. > > adjustment is the +5V ADJ potentiometer that is visible on the power > > Does adjusting that make a difference with any of the other voltages? I don't know. The next couple of tests that the flowchart takes you through are simply "is " in tolerance at the crossover board?", and if the answer is "no" then you get to replace a transistor on the power supply motherboard, or in one case the power supply motherboard. > What's the difference between M and I/O in the supply v. column? I think M is the supply that goes to the memory bus, and I/O is the supply that goes to the I/O bus. > Something tells me to leave this pot alone at this point. Yep. > As I don't have a set of schematics, can anyone tell me what to check next? > Meanwhile, I guess I'll go poking around and see what voltages I can find > in various spots. As Tony points out, there is stuff in there that can knock you on your hindquarters or worse, and I'm guessing that's why you're supposed to use a voltmeter with a floating ground in one of those tests above. Be careful. That said, sorry to take so long writing back, just haven't had time or space between my ears to sit here with the manuals and try to figure things out from them. The curse of gainful employment strikes again. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 16:08:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <000301bfde61$c87ea440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at Jun 24, 0 09:56:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1346 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/f04eb6dd/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 12:10:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Where to get ancient media In-Reply-To: <3a.6ef3f30.2686caf3@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 24, 0 10:39:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/b988c14c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 13:16:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 24, 0 11:04:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 10476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/df21afd2/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 16:14:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Where can I find 5.25 DS/DD disks? In-Reply-To: <014c01bfdea0$2bab8d60$7264c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Jun 25, 0 07:33:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/8f046197/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 16:38:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006251950.MAA50967@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 25, 0 12:50:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000625/948c8478/attachment-0001.ksh From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Jun 25 17:37:45 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP References: Message-ID: <006801bfdef5$fc5efaa0$d513f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> One of the interesting things (to me) about Tron is that the composer, Wendy Carlos - see www.wendycarlos.com - was formerly known as Walter Carlos prior to gender redesignation procedures. (The whole story of this is laid out in a late 1970s interview in Playboy). She/he originally gained fame for recording "Switched on Bach" in the 1960s - one of the first recordings of classical music on an electronic synthesizer - and later composed the score to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of Tron, Walter had become Wendy. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Classic Computers Mailing List Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 9:09 PM Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP > > I found the soundtrack to Tron on vinyl at a local thrift shop today. > It's in nearly prefect condition. Did I score? > > Too bad I don't have a record player so I can listen to it :( > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ----------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 25 17:22:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <007901bfdef5$214afea0$7564c0d0@ajp166> >to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of >Tron, Walter had become Wendy. Your dates and music are misaligned. the "Walter" was not used during the period and was neither played up or down. It was a itlem of convenience of the record compmanies. However by then it was history. I know as I have all the albums as originals bought when they were originally released and have kept a Yamaha belt drive going for real music. ;) She is one of many talents that took electronics and rather than make Rover howl, did achieve serious music. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 25 18:44:33 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > We went through this shortly before you joined the list ... You've just > prompted me to throw a FAQ together on this. Here goes : Good job, Tony! A few interleaved suggestions (NOT disagreements) for your FAQ: > 5.25" floppy disk Frequently Asked Questions > -------------------------------------------- > 2000 A. R. Duell. Please feel free to distribute this document (on web > sites, ftp sites, mailing lists, etc) provided this notice is intact. > This doecument was written as a response to questions on the classic > computer mailing list regarding the use of various types of 5.25" floppy > disks in various types of drives. It attempts to explain what > combinations work and why. For the moment I am only considering > soft-sectored drives... > > 1) What types of (soft sectored) 5.25" drives are there. > > There are 5 common types : > 48 tpi single sided, double density. These have 40 cylinders (and 40 > tracks). On a PC they'd store 180K bytes "Exact capacity, of course, varied according to certain formatting choices, providing a range from 1600K to 200K. "On some (early) systems particularly those based on the Shugart SA400, only 35 of the tracks were available/used. > 48tpi double sided, double density. These have 40 cylinders (80 tracks > total, one foe each cylinder on each side of the disk). This is the for > common PC 360K drive "Exact capacity, of course, varied according to certain formatting choices, providing a range from 320K to 400K. > 96 tpi, single sided, double density. These have 80 cylinders (and being > single-sided, 80 tracks). These are not common on PCs, but if used there "(not supported by most versions of MS-DOS) > would store 360K. The DEC RX50 is a (double) drive of this type. > > 96 tpi, double sided, double density. Again, they have 80 cylinders (and > thus 160 tracks). On a PC, they'd store 720K, although they're not > commonly found on PCs. "IBM PC-JX appears to be the only IBM model to use them. They were quite common in CP/M and non-IBM-compatible MS-DOS machines. "Exact capacity, of course, varied according to certain formatting choices, providing a range from 640K to 800K. > 96 tpi double density drives are sometimes called 'quad density' units. > > 96 tpi, double sided, high density. This is the PC 1.2Mbyte drive, and is > not commonly used elsewhere. These drives have several differences > compared to the double density version, although the PC controller hides > some of these. "The 1.2M mimics an 8", even to the extent of a 360RPM motor speed, although 8" normally used 77 cylinders and 1.2M uses 80. In some cases, 1.2M 5.25" and 8" drives can be interchanged by making an appropriate cable, however 1.2M often also supports a mode for access of 360K, whereas 8" does not. > 2) What are the real differenced between the various types? > > The difference between single and double sided drives is obvious -- the > double sided drive has an extra head (mounted on top of the disk) and a > switching circuit to select between the 2 heads. In passing at this > point I'll mention that single-sided drives record on the bottom > (non-label side] of the disk and that this is 'side 0' on double sided units > > The differences between 48 tpi and 96 tpi double density drives are again > fairly obvious. The head positioner (mechanism that moves the read/write > head) is designed to move the head only 1/96" per step rather than 1/48". > The actual head in a 96tpi is narrower (radially) than the one in a 48tpi > drive so that it writes a narrower track on the disk (so that adjacent > tracks don't overlap at the closer spacing). > > The high density drive has several differences wrt the 96 tpi double > density unit. Firstly, the spindle motor rotates at 360rpm (at least in > high density mode, see below) rather than the 300rpm that all other > drives rotate at. Also the 'write current' (the electric current passed > through the head coil to write on the disk) is higher in high density > mode so as to be able to write on the special high density disks. These > have a higher coercivity than normal double density disks. > > There is a signal on the interface connector of high density drives (at > least the properly-designed ones) that, when asserted, reduces the write > current to the value used with normal double density disks. In this mode, > the drive will reliably work as a 96 tpi double density unit. In some > drives, asserting this signal will slow the spindle motor down to 300rpm, > in others, it continues to turn at 360rpm and the controller has to > handle a data rate of 6/5 times times the standard 250kbps double > density rate. The IBM PC/AT disk controller is capable of doing this. (300kmps) > 3) What types of disks exist? > > All 5.25" disks that I have ever seen are coated with the magnetic oxide > on both sides. > > A double sided disk means that both sides have been tested and shown to > be reliable for storing data. A single sided disk may be one where the > top side has failed this test (and the bottom side is good) or one which > simply hasn't been tested on both sides. "But the percentage of rejects on decent quality diskettes is low enough that few, if any, manufacturers followed the apocryphal procedure of keeping DS diskettes that failed one side in order to peddle them as single sided. > '80 track' -- 96 tpi -- double density disks do seem to be different from > '40 track' -- 48 tpi ones. I suspect, without proof, that the 96 tpi ones > are lower 'noise' which is important for the narrower tracks used on such > drives. > > The original 5.25" disks were designed to be used in 48tpi drives, since > that's all that there was at the time. Once 96 tpi drives became popular, > many manufacturers starting making all their disks suitable for use in such > drives (it was cheaper for them to have one production line) and sold > them as 'universal' disks, suitable for use in 48 or 96 tpi drives, > single or double sided. > > However, once the IBM PC and PC/AT became the only common computers to > have 5.25" drives, many manufacturers went back to making 48 tpi disks > only, since that was the only double density drive in common use. > Therefore many modern double density (known as '360K disks') are _not_ > reliable in 96tpi drives. > > High density disks are different. Period. The magnetic media has a > different coercivitiy, and it can only be used in the high density drive > _at the high density_. 600 v 300 Oerstedt. > 4) What sorts of blank disks can be used in what drives? > > Double sided disks can always be used in single sided drives. The fact > that the unused side is also perfectly good for storing data doesn't > matter, of course > > 96 tpi double density disks can be used in 48 tpi double density drives. > Again, the disk is 'better' than it needs to be, but that doesn't matter. > > This means that these disks can be used as follows : > disk works in > 96 tpi DS : 96 tpi DS, 96 tpi SS, 48 tpi DS, 48 tpi SS > 96 tpi SS : 96 tpi SS, 48 tpi SS > 48 tpi DS : 48 tpi DS, 48 tpi SS > 48 tpi SS : 48 tpi SS > > For that reason, many manufacturers sold 96 tpi double sided disks as > 'Universal' disks. They could be used in all types of (double density) > drives. > > High density disks are special. They can _only_ be used in high density > drives at the high density format. Similarly, high density drives will > only reliably work in high density mode on such disks. But if the > appropriate signal is asserted, then the high denisty drive behaves like > a 96tpi double sided double density unit, and can use double density disks. > > 5) What combinations may work under some circumstances? > > Single sided disks may work in double sided drives. Firstly, some systems > (many systems?) allow you to format them as single-sided, for which they > are (obviously) suitable. And in many cases the 'other' side of the disk > is perfectly good and the disk can be formatted as double sided. "When the disks were expensive, some people would modify the jacket to make it symmetrical so that the disk could be flipped over to use the other side as an additional single sided disk. Those were sometimes known as "flippies". On PC type systems, that required punching an additional access for the index sensor; on Apple ][ and Commodore, only the write-protect needed to be modified. > 48 tpi disks may be good enough to work in 96tpi drives. My experience > suggests this is not reliable, though. > > 6) What about data interchange? What (already recorded) disks can be read > in what sorts of drives? > > Let's deal with the obvious cases first. A double sided drive can read a > single sided disk. The upper head is simply not used. Similarly, a double > sided drive can write to an already-used single sided disk. > > Another obvious case is that the high density disks can only be used in > high density drives. > > The less obvious case is the 48 tpi versus 96tpi issue. The drives were > designed so that the centre line of alternate 96 tpi cylinders is the same > distance from the spindle as the centre line of each 48 tpi cylinder. > Thus 48 tpi disks can be read in 96 tpi drives if the drive 'double > steps'. Some drives can do this in hardware (there may be a switch marked > 40/80 on the drive casing), some operating systems can handle this. > > Since a high density drive can be 'turned into' a double density drive by > asserting that signal I keep mentioning, a high denisty drive can also > reliably read 48 tpi disks. > > 96 tpi drives writing to 48 tpi disks is a cause of many problems, which > deserves its own section. "Note: remember that "ERASING" a file constitutes a write operation. > 7) What's all this about writing to 48 tpi disks in 96 tpi drives? > > This is perhaps the biggest cause of problems with 5.25" disks. People > write a file to a 48tpi disk using a 96 tpi drive and find that the > result is readable on 96 tpi drives but not on 48 tpi drives. > > Remember that the 96 tpi drive has a narrower head than the 48 tpi drive, > so it writes a narrower track to the disk. > > Suppose we take a totally blank disk and format it on a 48 tpi drive. > This writes 40 tracks on each side of the disk. They may be 'empty' in > the sense that they contain no user data, but they're still recorded. > > Then we write to it on a double-stepping 96 tpi drive. The narrower head > overwrittes the middle band of some tracks, but the edges remain unchanged. > > A 96 tpi drive can read that perfectly well. Its narrow head only 'sees' > the 'new' data down the middle of each track. > > But a 48 tpi drive with its wider head, sees both the old and new data. > The result is a mess that the controller can't decode. So the disk is not > readable on a 48 tpi drive. > > A similar argument shows that the same problem occurs if you take a blank > disk, format it on a double-stepping 96 tpi drive, write some files to it > there, write to it with a 48 tpi drive and then write to it with the > double-stepping 96 tpi drive again. The result is not readable on a 48 tpi > drive. > > In general, if you take a blank disk, format it on a double stepping 96 tpi > drive and write to it there only, the result is readable both 48 tpi and > 96 tpi drives. The narrower tracks generally do provide enough signal for > the wider head on the 48 tpi drive provided there is nothing in the > 'blank' spaces between the tracks. > > The simple rule is : > > * If you ever write to a disk in a 96 tpi drive that has already be * > * written to (including formatting) in a 48 tpi drive then the result * > * may well not be readable in 48 tpi drives. * "Note: blank does NOT mean formatting. The disk must be degaussed, either by bulk erasing, or using a virgin disk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 25 20:01:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 25, 0 04:44:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 13682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/19eb9c37/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 19:28:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can > say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer > field, and I think I'll have to write up my experience with > Processor Technology and the Sol as an example of this (I > still have all the "soon" letters I got from them). If it is vaporware then it's probably safe to assume that it's simply a matter of Todd Fischer having a lack of time as he is doing on the IMSAI revival stuff in his free time. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 19:35:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <006801bfdef5$fc5efaa0$d513f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of > Tron, Walter had become Wendy. The front of the record advertises "Music by Wendy Carlos", which is why I thought this might be a particular score. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Jun 25 20:56:57 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP References: <007901bfdef5$214afea0$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001901bfdf11$d0423060$f5e9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > >to Clockwork Orange (still as Walter). By the time of > >Tron, Walter had become Wendy. > > > Your dates and music are misaligned. the "Walter" > was not used during the period and was neither played > up or down. It was a itlem of convenience of the record > compmanies. However by then it was history. > > I know as I have all the albums as originals bought when > they were originally released and have kept a Yamaha > belt drive going for real music. ;) > Well, you should check your original. If it's from 1971, the year Clockwork was released, then it says "Walter." If it's one of the later re-releases, it may say "Wendy." But, clearly, Wendy was Walter in 1971. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 25 22:13:00 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:16:00PM -0400 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE83@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000625231300.A16395@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:16:00PM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 09:48:57AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >> >You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg [...] >> And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different >Point to John: the machine offered for sale is called an >IMSAI Series Two, not an IMSAI 8080. Yes, I only said the "8080" because you did. >However, quoting from the main web page: > >: Delivery is currently 6 to 8 weeks from the date of order. >: Please check with us for confirmation of shipping date. It's said that for ages. A couple of months ago I sent email to check the actual shipping date, Todd wrote back saying they were still debugging the design but it ought to be ready in the summer. A couple of weeks ago I sent another message asking if the replacement sheet metal for the 8080 is back in stock yet and haven't heard back, so I'm guessing he's busier than ever working on it, if the boxes were actually ready to go then surely they'd update the web page to say so. But they're *still* using a mockup for the photo! Not a good sign. I'm seriously considering buying one of the boxes if I ever hear that they *have* been released and do work. Something this cool deserves to be supported! >And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can >say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer >field, Sure is. This isn't the right way to evoke feelings of nostalgia in customers though! John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 25 22:19:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator In-Reply-To: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl>; from wanderer@bos.nl on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000 References: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl> Message-ID: <20000625231924.B16395@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock >option and then mount it under RSX, it complains, telling me that >it is an alignment pack! Is there a way to get around this problem? >Using FMT does not help either, a similar message is returned. I just put a compressed blank RM03 at: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.zip and: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.dsk.gz The file is about 64 KB either way, and yields the same empty RM03.DSK image file, which has a correct null bad sector list, and serial # = 12345. It works fine with RSTS DSKINT under Bob's emulator, I assume it will make RSX happy too. >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. With what driver? John Wilson D Bit From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun Jun 25 22:41:33 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <007901bfdef5$214afea0$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <200006260340.e5Q3eet19879@grover.winsite.com> > > She is one of many talents that took electronics and > rather than make Rover howl, did achieve serious music. > > > Allison > > You are absolutely correct on that one, Allison. I read an interview with Bob Moog where he was discussing the early days of synths. After "S-OB" was released and just exploded, everybody and their brother had to have a Moog. Problem was, most of what was produced on them was total crap, probably sounding like what I would do if I couldn't sequence the hell out of something. (Ever hear George Harrison's "Electronic Music"? 'Nuff said.......)(And yes, I know that wasn't George. It was really just the synth salesman noodling and demoing the machine, and George released it under his name. If you have an original copy, you can see the other guy's name before George made the record company print over his name on the jacket......) Bob's comment was that it became very apparent that what made "S-OB" the huge hit that it was wasn't his synth, it was Wendy.... It's even more amazing to listen to that album now and think about the technology that didn't exist back then for sequencing and midi...what she did manually was astounding. She and Larry Fast have always been heroes of mine. Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 25 22:50:09 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:38:27 +0100 (BST)" References: Message-ID: <200006260350.UAA63786@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I'm working even more blindly than usual, so could you give me a clue and > at least describe the basic topology of the PSU. I wish. I don't actually have one of these power supplies in front of me right now, just a couple of so-so printed copies of photos showing what it should look like with the top cover off. One photo for the configuration that supports battery backup, one photo for the configuration that doesn't. You can see the latter (which shows what I think rdd has) at http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/1000E-ps.jpeg -- it's about 50KB. Maybe this will help you more than it helps me. What I don't see in the photos is the big transformer-like hunk of iron that I'd expect in a linear power suppply, and the dark spaces don't look big enough to hold one. So I'm thinking it's a switcher. -Frank McConnell From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 23:18:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > -------------- > 5.25" floppy disk Frequently Asked Questions > -------------------------------------------- Great FAQ! Thanks, Tony! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 25 23:21:02 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <200006260340.e5Q3eet19879@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: Is it still possible to get Switched on Bach on CD? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 00:41:50 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on this Motorola computer? Message-ID: <000901bfdf31$397f5160$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> Any information, general to specific, on the Motorola model M68SetDS351 all-in-one, dual 5.25 floppy drive, computer will be greatly appreciated. Yes, this is the one on eBay. I'm trying to decide if it is worth the shipping cost. Here's a picture of the machine: http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/motorola.jpg Thanks, Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From wmsmith at earthlink.net Mon Jun 26 01:25:58 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP References: Message-ID: <003f01bfdf37$6503b3c0$f5e9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Is it still possible to get Switched on Bach on CD? > Yes. Check out the Wendy Carlos site under "discography" - www.wendycarlos.com. -W From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 02:50:37 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on this Motorola computer? Some more details. In-Reply-To: <000901bfdf31$397f5160$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <001401bfdf43$37a004e0$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Any information, general to specific, on the Motorola model -> M68SetDS351 all-in-one, dual 5.25 floppy drive, computer -> will be greatly appreciated. -> -> Yes, this is the one on eBay. I'm trying to decide if it is -> worth the shipping cost. -> -> Here's a picture of the machine: -> -> http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/motorola.jpg I have some more information on this computer: Manufactured 1981. Main board 6800 based, has 6821, 6840, 6850. I know what these IC's are. I built my first computer, a SWTPc M6800 in 1976, and still have it d8^) Thanks, Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 26 07:55:30 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on this Motorola computer? Some more details. In-Reply-To: <001401bfdf43$37a004e0$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> References: <000901bfdf31$397f5160$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000626075530.14872f80@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Bill, I looked at your description and the picture but I've never seen or heard of a Motorola computer like that. That's surprises me since I collect 6800 docs and I have a number of old Motorola computer books. They talk about the Motorloa Exor-ciser and EXOR-set systems and the developement systems but there's no mention of anything like the system that you have. I wonder if it might be some kind of prototype or maybe a rebadged unit? Joe At 03:50 AM 6/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >-> Any information, general to specific, on the Motorola model >-> M68SetDS351 all-in-one, dual 5.25 floppy drive, computer >-> will be greatly appreciated. >-> >-> Yes, this is the one on eBay. I'm trying to decide if it is >-> worth the shipping cost. >-> >-> Here's a picture of the machine: >-> >-> http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/classiccmp/motorola.jpg > > >I have some more information on this computer: > >Manufactured 1981. Main board 6800 based, has 6821, 6840, 6850. > >I know what these IC's are. I built my first computer, a SWTPc M6800 >in 1976, and still have it d8^) > > >Thanks, > >Bill Dawson >whdawson@mlynk.com > ? > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 26 07:33:51 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator Message-ID: <000626083351.26200a58@trailing-edge.com> On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock >... >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. John Wilson asked: >With what driver? Pre-V5.5 versions of RT-11 come with the "DP:" driver, but this doesn't do RM03's, just RP02's and RP03's. It wouldn't suprise me if it got confused when you hooked a RM03 (real or emulated) to a system and tried to access it with the "DP:" driver, but that's "operator error". There are several DECUS-distributed RM03 device drivers for RT-11, and there were also a couple of commercial ones sold by third parties in the 1980's. The most likely DECUS driver is library entry 11-517, "System Device Handler For RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06 and RT-11 V4". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 07:45:09 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: Building a better "old" computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE85@TEGNTSERVER> > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:16:00PM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: [..snip..] > >And if the Series Two is still vaporware, then all I can > >say is that is a _very_ old tradition in the microcomputer > >field, > > Sure is. This isn't the right way to evoke feelings of nostalgia in > customers though! ROFL! -dq From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Jun 26 13:31:23 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:00 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <200006260340.e5Q3eet19879@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: Hello Paul On 25-Jun-00, you wrote: > >> >> She is one of many talents that took electronics and >> rather than make Rover howl, did achieve serious music. >> >> >> Allison >> >> > > You are absolutely correct on that one, Allison. I read an interview > with Bob Moog where he was discussing the early days of synths. > After "S-OB" was released and just exploded, everybody and their > brother had to have a Moog. Problem was, most of what was > produced on them was total crap, probably sounding like what I > would do if I couldn't sequence the hell out of something. (Ever hear > George Harrison's "Electronic Music"? 'Nuff said.......)(And yes, I > know that wasn't George. It was really just the synth salesman > noodling and demoing the machine, and George released it under > his name. If you have an original copy, you can see the other guy's > name before George made the record company print over his name > on the jacket......) > > Bob's comment was that it became very apparent that what made > "S-OB" the huge hit that it was wasn't his synth, it was Wendy.... > > It's even more amazing to listen to that album now and think about > the technology that didn't exist back then for sequencing and > midi...what she did manually was astounding. She and Larry Fast > have always been heroes of mine. > > > > > Paul Braun WD9GCO > Cygnus Productions > nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened to 'crap' . . . . There is a lot of good synth music out there if you look for it, and don't try to compare it to symphonic scores. Morton Subotnick and Tomita were the early leaders, among others. Quite a few of them were on the Nonesuch record label. Back in my vinyl accumulation days, I amasssed quite a selection. My interests there stem from over 40 years' association with Laurens Hammond's invention back in the 30's. which by definition is the one of the earliest known 'synthesizers' with a very user-friendly interface. Too bad they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. One last note: Wendy used 'Walter' to enter a men's world in music back then. Women still don't enjoy parity with men in the music industry, unless they are a country singer. > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand --- Vintage Hammond collector! ghldbrd@ccp.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 26 08:24:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Is it still possible to get Switched on Bach on CD? > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger Yes with added cuts as a boxed set. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 26 08:30:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened > to 'crap' . . . . I don't know, that human pumped synth was pretty neat. ;) > There is a lot of good synth music out there if you look for it, and don't > try to compare it to symphonic scores. Morton Subotnick and Tomita were the > early leaders, among others. Quite a few of them were on the Nonesuch You named a few of mine plus vinyl from the early computer music conferences. > they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. Havent banged on one of those in years, nothing like Taccota&fuege/Dminor to a rock beat on a full bore C3... gave the prof gray hair. Allison From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Jun 26 08:32:56 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <019a01bfdf73$512c3cf0$a652e780@L166> >My interests there stem from over 40 years' association with Laurens >Hammond's invention back in the 30's. which by definition is the one of the >earliest known 'synthesizers' with a very user-friendly interface. Too bad >they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. Let me know if you need any parts or manuals on these. I used to service them and when I sold the business about 20 years ago, I kept the manuals and the parts I carried in my vehicle. I know I still have things like vibrato scanner washers and mercotac's, etc. Dan From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 26 09:18:26 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801bfdf79$65c85d50$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Sellam said: > I found the soundtrack to Tron ... Did I score? Here's a nice lightweight answer. Yes, you did. I can provide you with a CD copy of this to listen to in exchange for the pleasure of getting a listen in myself. John A. From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 26 09:30:51 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened > to 'crap' . . . . Now that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black! From what I recall, the music on the Lawrence Welk show was quite similar what one heard the organ salespeople playing, in shopping-mall music stores, on those horrible types of home organs with all of the built in horrid noises like cha-cha and polka rythms, etc. Did any home organs have computers with floppies, etc. inside them? > One last note: Wendy used 'Walter' to enter a men's world in music back > then. Women still don't enjoy parity with men in the music industry, unless > they are a country singer. Ermm, wasn't she actually a he, who wanted to be a she, before an operation? That's what I heard, anyway. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 11:10:15 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE78@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > It's not enough to just will your collection or some > part of it to the Computer Museum History Center... > unless you also provide for the shipping/transport > of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet > Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so > themselves. The best option for the museum folks is to will them "right of first refusal", giving them the option to take what they want. Most museums are cramped for space (like RCS/RI, for example), and giving them an entire collection often turns into a big headache, if only a small amount of it is to be kept. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From transit at lerctr.org Mon Jun 26 11:12:22 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been likened > > to 'crap' . . . . > > Now that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black! From what I > recall, the music on the Lawrence Welk show was quite similar what one > heard the organ salespeople playing, in shopping-mall music stores, on > those horrible types of home organs with all of the built in horrid > noises like cha-cha and polka rythms, etc. I always wanted one of those, but they were too expensive ($1000 and up). By the time I could afford one, they were pretty much disappeared, replaced by cheap keyboards with built in horrid rhythms... > > Did any home organs have computers with floppies, etc. inside them? > Not until the mid-90's. On the other hand, there was a "Marantz Reproducing Piano" that was like a player piano, but used digital signals on a casette tape rather than the punched paper rolls. http://www.mninter.net/~mfontana/pc2mid/desc.html Some of the Allen Organs had a digital system where the tone quality was determined by an 80-column punched computer card, but these were high-end instruments, not really home organs. (Someone over on the Electronic Organ List hacked this system, and determined just how the cards were supposed to be punched in order to produce a certain sound) > > One last note: Wendy used 'Walter' to enter a men's world in music back > > then. Women still don't enjoy parity with men in the music industry, unless > > they are a country singer. > > Ermm, wasn't she actually a he, who wanted to be a she, before an > operation? That's what I heard, anyway. > Did (s)he get the operation before or after getting into the music business? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 26 11:26:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: Whatever happened to CHAC? Message-ID: <000626122626.26200a7e@trailing-edge.com> Whatever happened to CHAC (The Computer History Association of California)? I haven't heard anything from them, nor seen new issues of their journal, in several years now. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jun 26 11:30:55 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 24, 2000 11:04:17 pm" Message-ID: <200006261630.JAA25675@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > DD drives or that DD disks can be used in HD drives _as HD disks_ (most > > HD drives can also handle DD disks, but only to store the amount of data > > that you'd get from a DD drive anyway). > > One word of caution regarding the use of DD disks in HD drives: it's > been my experience that which this may appear to work, problems > sometimes arise when one attempts to read the data written in a DD disk > by an HD drive. If IBM had only chosen to use a real double density format. (Note that your DS/DD disks say 96 tpi on them.) Most serious buisness CP/M systems of the era had an 80 track double density format, not this 40 track IBM cr*p. What really annoys me is that IBM and MS never rectified the problem, and even after we all had 96 tpi drives, we still couldn't put 720k on a DS/DD disk without special software. (Unless we happened to have one of the few MS-DOS machines that supported the format like Tandy, Victor, and Epson if you wanted to pay the exhorbitant price they charged for a compatible 96 tpi drive.) Having a 5.25 double density format that held nearly the same as a 3.5 double density drive would have greatly sped the acceptance of 3.5 inch drives on IBM compatble machines. Eric From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 11:48:37 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8C@TEGNTSERVER> I guess that's probably an unfair remark, but someone who lurked on that auction until I went to sleep last night beat me by a dollar. I knew that could happen but I was hoping it wouldn't. Thus go the perils of bidding at auctions. So, I want to thank everyone for the very useful suggestions on transporting the unit. It would eventually have been fun to play with, even though my interest in DEC is pretty much limited to the DEC-10, and since DEC had enough trouble keeping them running, no way I'd try if I could even find one. Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone know if that ever came about? -dq From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 26 13:49:23 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator References: <000626083351.26200a58@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3957A5B3.390D@bos.nl> I did indeed use the DP: driver, so that explains why it didn't work. I'll check on the decus CDROM then for the entry. Thanks, Ed CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: > >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock > >... > >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. > > John Wilson asked: > >With what driver? > > Pre-V5.5 versions of RT-11 come with the "DP:" driver, but this > doesn't do RM03's, just RP02's and RP03's. It wouldn't suprise > me if it got confused when you hooked a RM03 (real or emulated) > to a system and tried to access it with the "DP:" driver, but > that's "operator error". > > There are several DECUS-distributed RM03 device drivers for RT-11, > and there were also a couple of commercial ones sold by third parties > in the 1980's. The most likely DECUS driver is library entry 11-517, > "System Device Handler For RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06 and RT-11 V4". > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 26 12:02:53 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfdf90$5ec97950$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > The best option ... is to will them > "right of first refusal" Funny, to me this sounds like a synonym for 'Womens rights'. John A. From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 26 12:05:08 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: Paul Allen's TOAD (was: Re: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8C@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to > put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone > know if that ever came about? Yes; the machine is on-line at xkleten.paulallen.com. It runs TOPS-20 (according to the data I have, TOPS-10 runs on the TOAD, but only on the console - no network logins, and the TOAD doesn't support any serial mux's...). Supposedly, accounts on that machine are/were available for folks interested in PDP-10 stuff, but the e-mail address that was given for requests (xkladmin@xkleten.paulallen.com) seems to lead to /dev/null these days; I've been trying for over a year to get someone to answer my e-mail, without success. I even went so far as to call his PR firm (the only e-mailable contact I could find on his web site); they had no knowledge of the machine, or of the offer to give people accounts, and could only tell me that "if no one is answering your e-mail, then it most likely means that this service is no longer being offered". I know that some folks have accounts and use the machine - I should have sent my request in when the offer was originally posted.... :-( --Pat. From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 26 14:06:27 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: Creating empty RM03 under Bob's emulator References: <39564AE0.3557@bos.nl> <20000625231924.B16395@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3957A9B3.57A@bos.nl> Mounting under RSX did work perfectly, BAD and INI did do what they have to do :=) Thanks, Ed John Wilson wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 06:09:36PM +0000, wanderer wrote: > >When I create an empty RM03 under Bob's emulator witht the badblock > >option and then mount it under RSX, it complains, telling me that > >it is an alignment pack! Is there a way to get around this problem? > >Using FMT does not help either, a similar message is returned. > > I just put a compressed blank RM03 at: > > ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.zip > and: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/empty/rm03.dsk.gz > > The file is about 64 KB either way, and yields the same empty RM03.DSK > image file, which has a correct null bad sector list, and serial # = 12345. > It works fine with RSTS DSKINT under Bob's emulator, I assume it will make > RSX happy too. > > >When using RT-11, INI doesn't do anything, it just hangs. > > With what driver? > > John Wilson > D Bit -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 12:26:48 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:01 2005 Subject: Paul Allen's TOAD (was: Re: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurke r) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8D@TEGNTSERVER> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to > > put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone > > know if that ever came about? > > I know that some folks have accounts and use the machine - > I should have sent my request in when > the offer was originally posted.... :-( Well, it sounds like somebody is keeping the electricity turned on... Gee, I was going to offer Paul my copy of the DEC-10 Commands Manual (this is the heavier paper version, not the "phone book" styled pub) for perpetual access. Now I guess it's E-bay destined... -dq From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Jun 26 12:35:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE8C@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000626102336.00bd8d50@208.226.86.10> At 12:48 PM 6/26/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >I guess that's probably an unfair remark, but someone >who lurked on that auction until I went to sleep last >night beat me by a dollar. I knew that could happen >but I was hoping it wouldn't. Thus go the perils of >bidding at auctions. Actually, I think that hivoltagenut (Chuck Hoaglin) is a DEC reseller and I suspect he bid a lot more than $27. As several of us mentioned the value the 11/73 CPU card alone was worth $25. So your typical dealer type will add up the value of the cards mentioned, bid on it and if they win have the seller strip the cards out into antistatic bags and ship them leaving the rack to be disposed of at its point of origin. The reason it _seems_ like he outbid you by a dollar was that Ebay proxy bidding only made him pay enough to go "one bid increment" past your highest bid. >Speaking of the DEC-10, Paul Allen was going to >put a TOAD online running TOPS-10; does anyone >know if that ever came about? Yes it did. there used to be information on tourist accounts at xkl.com IIRC but I just checked and the web server does not respond anymore. --Chuck From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Jun 26 12:57:47 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurker Message-ID: <20000626.130415.-365663.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:48:37 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman writes: > I guess that's probably an unfair remark, but someone > who lurked on that auction until I went to sleep last > night beat me by a dollar. I knew that could happen > but I was hoping it wouldn't. Thus go the perils of > bidding at auctions. I always bid using a high-powered rifle w/telescopic sight. ;^) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 26 13:32:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > >> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: >> > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been >>likened >> > to 'crap' . . . . >> >> Now that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black! From what I >> recall, the music on the Lawrence Welk show was quite similar what one >> heard the organ salespeople playing, in shopping-mall music stores, on >> those horrible types of home organs with all of the built in horrid >> noises like cha-cha and polka rythms, etc. > >I always wanted one of those, but they were too expensive ($1000 and up). >By the time I could afford one, they were pretty much disappeared, >replaced by cheap keyboards with built in horrid rhythms... GSA outlet in Fullerton has one for I "think" $50. California State Agency for Surplus Property 701 Burning Tree Road Fullerton, CA 92633 714-449-5900 Fax: 714-449-5917 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 12:53:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU In-Reply-To: <200006260350.UAA63786@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 25, 0 08:50:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/644b5d08/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 12:58:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: 5.25" FAQ (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 25, 0 09:18:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/6a917397/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 13:05:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 26, 0 12:10:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/0c48a03b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 13:09:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: <200006261630.JAA25675@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Jun 26, 0 09:30:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000626/d5639bb4/attachment-0001.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Jun 26 14:23:38 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000626152338.A18042@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: >Some of the Allen Organs had a digital system where the tone quality was >determined by an 80-column punched computer card, but these were high-end >instruments, not really home organs. (Someone over on the Electronic >Organ List hacked this system, and determined just how the cards were >supposed to be punched in order to produce a certain sound) Neat! I remember a snazzy tuner that was around in the 80s which used a punch card, that's cool that they were used to encode tone quality too. The tuner had a little circle of LEDs which would appear to "roll" in one direction or the other, depending on which way you needed to go. And the punch card allowed non-equal temperaments, great for harpsichordists who don't feel like doing mean tone the equal-beating way. I wish I remembered what these things were called so I could look for one... What would be *really* neat would be an automatic harpsichord tuner, with some kind of slow high-torque motor to turn the tuning pins. But I'll bet the debugging process would involve breaking a whole lot of strings! John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 26 14:34:37 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: 40 cylinder 3.5" drive (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, looking through old catalogues, I found a reference to a 40 > cylinder 3.5" drive. Has anyone ever seen one of those? Looks like a > chance for the same sort of incompatabilities with the normal 80 cylinder > 3.5" drives as the 5.25" people experience! Epson Geneva PX-8 ~67.5 tpi can be read by double-stepping regular "720K" drive. It probably has the same track width problems, but I've never had a chance to try. also some models of the Tandy drive for the model 100 (I don't know off-hand WHICH models) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 15:07:08 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE97@TEGNTSERVER> Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers of Meyers Computer Services (Jersey Shore, PA)? Here's why I ask... After the many invectives launched here towards E-bay (but prior to my post defending them), I decided to check out haggle.com. Almost right off the bat, I found something I wanted for a great price- a Seagate 11200ND diff SCSI drive. I won the item, and received it on Wednesday. It was Friday before I got around to trying it- and it's DOA. Won't spin up; I can hear what might be the heads trying to unpark, or maybe it's the drive motor trying to start. But negatory. Additionally, three SMD devices appear to have been removed from the drive's interface PCB. Very strange. I sent him e-mail on Friday w/r/t its status as DOA; the description for the item gave it a 2-day DOA warranty. He appears to be very busy; I spoke to a subordinate, who took my info and said he'd contact mr. meyers about it, and I'd be contacted back. All the feedback on haggle for him is glowing; I'm willing to believe he really is a busy guy and that he (or a subordinate) just grabbed a drive off the wrong pile and shipped it to me. An honest mistake. Should I be apprehensive about this? Hey, I'd only be out $15 if I get no resolution, so it's not going to be the end of the world. Just thought I'd ask before I cop an attitude... tia, -doug q From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 26 15:02:19 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: HP-1000E PSU References: Message-ID: <3957B6CB.921A85FD@cornell.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > Bob: As you have one of these supplies in front of you, what is it? I > there a big iron-cored transformer? Is there a medium-sized ferrite-cored > transformer? What about capacitors of a few hundred uF with working > voltages around 200V? > > -tony OK, I'll bite, as I have one of these; I am in a bit of a hurry right now so I won't disassemble the thing entirely -- it has way too many screws and plates. The supply is rated 8A max, 110V, 47.5-66Hz in the rear plate. No large transformers. There is a large EMI filter right at the mains, then the input circuitry features a large coil, two 1150 uF @ 200V caps, one small transformer which I think supplies what seems to be a small control board nearby, then another board with five IOR 4-772 TO-3 transistors; several diodes and something that looks like a bridge (sorry; can't get a good look without disassembling) there is another transistor nearby in the main board, a 2S02429; all of these components seem to be part of the main switcher; later on there are more caps, transistors, SCR's and a multiple-tap xformer (laminated core!). It looks like a two-stage switcher to me. carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 15:10:21 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Museum policies (was: Yo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Certainly in the UK (and I guess this applies worldwide), some museums > have policies which make it difficult for them to sell or give away > potential exhibits. So even though they've already got 10 Commodore 64s, > and even though they know of a collector who wants one, they still can't > give him the one that's just been given to them. Something seems seriously wrong here. If a museum ever gets into a situation like this, they have made a serious error. When an artifact (or anything else, for that matter) is to be donated to a museum, a contract is drawn up and signed by both parties. The museums use a very standardized contract to protect themselves, as many people use museums for personal gain. Like any contract, both parties must agree or nothing happens. Museums will _almost_always_ insist on a contract that lets them do whatever they want with the all or part of the new material - including storage, display, preservation and restoration, trade, sale, and destruction. If they can not get this right, nearly all will simply not accept the donation. This also applies to things willed to them - they need not take them if backed into a corner. I think you may be confusing the issue of selling and trading items that are not part of the museum trust - basically items on temporary or indefinite loan (there really is no "permanent loan"). For example, when the ship restoration people go into the reserve fleet to pull off fittings and equipment for museum ships going thru restoration, the items _can_not_ be sold or destroyed. This is because the items are still government property, even though the Navy doesn't want the stuff! The stuff can be traded, but only for items in the same category from other museums. I can not think of any situation where computer equipment would fall into this category, unless the equipment is crypto related. Also, keep in mind the point of accepting willed donations. Think of the tripping points a museum would have with these transactions. Museums generally do not have the resources to change the terms of wills, so if lots come along, generally they must take all or nothing (unless the term does give the right of first refusal). They _must_ have the right to refuse donations. If this was not the case, museums would be helpless and the power would be abused by anyone trying to get the junk out of an estate. They would have to take stuff that wasn't even worth taking to a flea market or the Goodwill store. Additionally, they would be forced to take things in huge quantities that would quickly swamp their systems. For example, I have in my shop a number of radio boxes for Martin B-10/B-12 bombers - great museum pieces, but does any museum need twenty of the darn things (I certainly don't - anyone want to buy one or more from me)? Of course not, and if I died tomorrow the recipient museum might only take one or two to satisfy their needs. If the museum was forced to take all and keep them - well, hell, I could "donate" all of my scrap metal and half parted and stripped sets, too. > While such policies are obviously necessary, I am also quite sure that > most classic computer collectors would rather their machines went to > people who wanted them (wether museums or private collectors), and were > not simply given to a museum to be stuck in storage. Just keep in mind that in museums, the artifacts are far safer than in private hands. Some museums have poor storage facilities (RCS/RI needs an upgrade - anyone want to donate money or shelving units?), but even the worst that a museum has to offer is far better than what many private collectors do (is that a can of Coke on your PDP-11? Shame if it spilled inside...). Don't damn the museums. Most have to store many items simply because of a lack of manpower and money to preserve and restore them. The simple solution is to ask the museums if _you_ can donate time and resources. Yes, this is a somewhat open invitation - RCS/RI has about 100 waiting projects for every one being worked on, and the ratio is growing. For those located near Providence, RI, come to an open house (3rd Saturday of every month) and see what there is to do. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 26 15:19:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006262019.NAA20060@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > While such policies are obviously necessary, I am also quite sure that > most classic computer collectors would rather their machines went to > people who wanted them (wether museums or private collectors), and were > not simply given to a museum to be stuck in storage. Hi They could always set up a loan program or a lease like program. The idea would be that a private individual could hold an item for an indefinite time. The person would be required to bring the machine back, should the museum need it. Maybe, the person would need to bring the unit back once a year to show that it was still in existence. The museum would get free storage and people would get to explore how these old machines worked. It wouldn't be much for the trophy hunters but for us hackers it would be great. Initially, there would be a lot of these on loan. Over a period of time, theft, fire and general loss, would whittle the number down to a more manageable size. This way, the museum could also maintain a working unit for display and demonstration purposes. There is something to be said for having a pile of C64's. Dwight From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 26 15:53:16 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE97@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000001bfdfb0$8dc77340$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> ...Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers No. ...it's DOA. Won't spin up; ...description for the item gave it a 2-day DOA Sounds clear to me. Insist on some kind of replacement or money-back. The one time I recieved bad HW in an auction I pressed for some sort of ?retribution, the seller offered replacement and gave it, without asking for bad part in return. ...three SMD devices appear to have been removed Sure they're not just board options that weren't placed? DOA even with perfect a looking thing would be still be DOA AFAIK. John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 26 15:58:30 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > [ 5.25" 80 cylinder 96 tpi drives on IBM PCs] > > without special software. (Unless we happened to have one of the few MS-DOS > > machines that supported the format like Tandy, Victor, and Epson if you wanted > > to pay the exhorbitant price they charged for a compatible 96 tpi drive.) > Why couldn't you simply set it up as a 720K (3.5") drive on _any_ PC? PC-DOS and MS-DOS from version 3.20 on fully support 720K; It doesn't matter whether it is 5.25 or 3.5; the computer can't tell them apart. If you are putting the 5.25" 720K drive in an AT, set the CMOS for 3.5" 720K. On many/most you will need to add a line to CONFIG.SYS of either DRIVER.SYS (which creates an additional drive letter), or DRIVPARM (which changes parameters for existing drive). ("/D:1 /F:2" to use drive B: as 720K) DRIVPARM is documented in MS-DOS. It is present, but not documented in PC-DOS (3.20 and above). Here's a puzzle for you: DRIVPARM in either PC-DOS or MS-DOS 3.20 will work on most compatibles. But on real IBM machines, DRIVPARM fails and gives an 'unrecognized..." in the processing of CONFIG.SYS. The problem with using DRIVPARM appears to be an incompatibility with the IBM BIOS, NOT an issue of which version of the OS! To format a diskette, use options: /T:80 /N:9 Note that those are used by FORMAT merely to select from its existing choices, those do NOT actually set the values of the variables (/T:70 will NOT make a 70 track format, etc.) > Considering the 96tpi DD 5.25" disk and the 3.5" DD disk, they have the > same number of cylinders (80), the same number of heads (2), the same > number of sectors/track (9), the same rotational speed (300 rpm) ,etc. So > why isn't the capacity _exactly_ the same? It is. The computer can't tell them apart. Prior to DOS 3.20 (particularly in 2.11), many OEMs started using 5.25" 720K drives and 3.5" 720K drives. But because it was not sanctioned by IBM, there was no standardization, and there were many mutually incompatible formats. Starting with 3.20, the format is standardized. Support for 1.4M started with version 3.30. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 16:20:51 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE98@TEGNTSERVER> > ...three SMD devices appear to have been removed > > Sure they're not just board options that > weren't placed? Pads for unplaced devices have a decidedly different appearance (in my experience) than what I see here. Usually, the pads are shiny with solder, a remnant I assume of wave soldering or some other similar manufacturing technology. For a given device, a few lead pads will be shiny, some *black*, and some kinda look lke they've been pulled up off the board. Sombody had a steady hand, I'll say that for sure. Either that, or these chips blew themselves off the board. I wish I had a photomicroscope so I could take a picture- you'd see what I mean. As I said in my post, I'm assuming he gets lots of these, and he just grabbed this one off the wrong pile. -dq From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 26 16:54:04 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <009801bfdfb9$0c5e1760$c8721fd1@default> Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me know. John Keys From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 26 17:08:28 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <026801bfdfbb$0ef3cb80$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, June 26, 2000 4:01 PM Subject: Do I look Rich ? >Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) >but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens >when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me >know. >John Keys > Did you tell him that computers are an investment that don't normally appreciate from their original purchase price (with the possible exception of Apple Is and Altairs)? Tell him I'll sell him an equally collectible Amiga 1000 for a very reasonable $2500. Seriously though, if anyone on-list want an original A1000 in its original box, with original keyboard but a replacement mouse (copies of Kickstart and WB 1.2 included, no manuals) I have one available. I'll take Amiga or Atari ST software (or most anything else Amiga-related) in trade. Cheers, Mark. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 17:32:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE99@TEGNTSERVER> > Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) > but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens > when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me > know. John- You just need to polish up your social engineering skills. ;-) I got a Prime 2455 for shipping costs only; the owner wanted... ...drum roll, please... ten thousand american dollars for this wonderful little machine. The process did entail one $25 phone call to Arizona, and a few shorter/cheaper ones, listening to his anxiety over marrying off the first of his daughters (late, at age 29), and such. But it paid off. -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 26 17:37:32 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9A@TEGNTSERVER> > Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers > of Meyers Computer Services (Jersey Shore, PA)? Ok, I called him, he called me back, VERY busy guy, good intentions, is sending me another unit. He tested this one to make sure it at least spins up (it was strange that while the auction ad made no mention of whether the drive had or had not been tested, that they still offered a 2-day DOA warranty). For my part, I'd decided that if a second unit is bad, hey, it was only $15.00, so no real harm done. But getting a working one means a lot, so I'm hoping this one will be good. At any rate, I feel safe saying that this guy runs a good business, and I'll probably buy from him again, should the opportunity arise, whether the second unit works or not. -doug q From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Jun 26 17:49:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: ; from Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000626154906.C26186@electron.quantum.int> On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:12:22AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Did any home organs have computers with floppies, etc. inside them? > > > Not until the mid-90's. On the other hand, there was a "Marantz > Reproducing Piano" that was like a player piano, but used digital signals > on a casette tape rather than the punched paper rolls. > http://www.mninter.net/~mfontana/pc2mid/desc.html I saw another organ like that once, Gulbransen maybe. > > Some of the Allen Organs had a digital system where the tone quality was > determined by an 80-column punched computer card, but these were high-end > instruments, not really home organs. (Someone over on the Electronic > Organ List hacked this system, and determined just how the cards were > supposed to be punched in order to produce a certain sound) Yep, a church I used to go to had one of those. It was quite a nice- sounding organ; big too, with two large manuals and 3 octaves or so of pedals. The cards were just for new add-on sounds (and I'm sure they made plenty of extra money from them); it had a large complement of built-in sounds selected by the typical flip-switches. The cards were made of plastic for durability. I think they must've used an optical matrix to read the entire card at once, because you didn't have to feed it in at any particular speed; just stick it in a slot and take it back out again. I suspect it must've used an advanced form of FM synthesis; the amount of data to define a sound that way would be about right for a punch card. But it sounded way better than say a Yamaha DX7. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 26 18:05:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE97@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers >price- a Seagate 11200ND diff SCSI drive. I won >the item, and received it on Wednesday. > >It was Friday before I got around to trying it- >and it's DOA. Won't spin up; I can hear what might >be the heads trying to unpark, or maybe it's the >drive motor trying to start. But negatory. >Should I be apprehensive about this? Hey, I'd >only be out $15 if I get no resolution, so it's >not going to be the end of the world. > >Just thought I'd ask before I cop an attitude... A few thoughts on this; 1) Don't make public posts questioning a vendors integrity prior to making a good effort to settle the issue privately. This will include waiting more than two business days for a reply. 2) DOA happens on old drives, so do a dozen other end user mess ups that keep them from spinning up or working. The drive could be fine, and you just have a wimpy power supply or a jumper set wrong. 3) Look at the ad terms carefully, not wishfully. Does it say 100% tested, or just no DOA? If the latter it may be he has a stack of "mostly" good drives and no desire to test them before shipping at $15 each. From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 26 18:12:28 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: 40 cylinder 3.5" drive (was: DD disks and HD drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidentally, looking through old catalogues, I found a reference to a 40 > > cylinder 3.5" drive. Has anyone ever seen one of those? Looks like a > > chance for the same sort of incompatabilities with the normal 80 cylinder > > 3.5" drives as the 5.25" people experience! > > Epson Geneva PX-8 > ~67.5 tpi > can be read by double-stepping regular "720K" drive. It probably has the > same track width problems, but I've never had a chance to try. MicroSolutions apparently neglected to read the spec, as UniForm gags at reading a disk from a PF-10 drive. Interestingly, while the spec in the manual spells out 16 - 256 byte sectors per track, Sydex' 22Disk formats to 9 - 512 byte sectors per track. The Geneva accepts it alright. I lack a format program for the Geneva, so I am unable to compare whether they changed spec or what. - don > also some models of the Tandy drive for the model 100 (I don't know > off-hand WHICH models) > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 26 18:18:42 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9A@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Has anyone done business with Richard Meyers > > of Meyers Computer Services (Jersey Shore, PA)? > > Ok, I called him, he called me back, VERY busy > guy, good intentions, is sending me another unit. > > He tested this one to make sure it at least spins > up (it was strange that while the auction ad made > no mention of whether the drive had or had not been > tested, that they still offered a 2-day DOA warranty). I think that on low priced items that some/many(?) vendors do a rather cursory test and assume that the law of averages is on their side for the rest of the functions. In the long run, it probably pays off for them. I know some swapmeet vendors here who guarantee parts in just that way. Some may not even test drives that far. But they will stand behind the DOA thing. - don > For my part, I'd decided that if a second unit is > bad, hey, it was only $15.00, so no real harm done. > > But getting a working one means a lot, so I'm > hoping this one will be good. > > At any rate, I feel safe saying that this guy > runs a good business, and I'll probably buy > from him again, should the opportunity arise, > whether the second unit works or not. > > -doug q > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 00:34:57 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? In-Reply-To: <026801bfdfbb$0ef3cb80$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Hello Mark On 26-Jun-00, you wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: John R. Keys Jr. > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, June 26, 2000 4:01 PM > Subject: Do I look Rich ? > > >> Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) >> but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens >> when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me >> know. >> John Keys >> > > > Did you tell him that computers are an investment that don't normally > appreciate from their original purchase price (with the possible exception > of Apple Is and Altairs)? Tell him I'll sell him an equally collectible > Amiga 1000 for a very reasonable $2500. > > Seriously though, if anyone on-list want an original A1000 in its original > box, with original keyboard but a replacement mouse (copies of Kickstart > and WB 1.2 included, no manuals) I have one available. I'll take Amiga or > Atari ST software (or most anything else Amiga-related) in trade. > > Cheers, > Mark. Sorry, Mark, I already have one, to which I just added a Sidecar. I think I have now enough stuff to make a full-blown Amiga 1000 system with period components. Give me his email addy and I'll ask $15,000 and see what he thinks!!!! I'll need to get some pics taken when I dig it out of the closet. What ever happened to caveat emptor? Is it now caveat vendum? > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 19:58:14 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfdfd2$c6173880$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > It's not enough to just will your collection or some -> > part of it to the Computer Museum History Center... -> > unless you also provide for the shipping/transport -> > of your bequest from wherever it is to the Moffet -> > Field operation, as they lack the funds to do so -> > themselves. -> -> The best option for the museum folks is to will them "right of first -> refusal", giving them the option to take what they want. -> Most museums are cramped for space (like RCS/RI, for example), and giving -> them an entire collection often turns into a big headache, if only a small -> amount of it is to be kept. Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would being passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education programs, etc. I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians) /preservationists) accordingly. Bill whdwson@mlynk.com From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Jun 26 21:03:24 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200006270202.e5R22Pq01395@grover.winsite.com> Allison typed forth and the following was the result: > > Well to a lot of people used to Lawrence Welk, synth music has been > > likened to 'crap' . . . . > > I don't know, that human pumped synth was pretty neat. ;) > > > There is a lot of good synth music out there if you look for it, and > > don't try to compare it to symphonic scores. Morton Subotnick and > > Tomita were the early leaders, among others. Quite a few of them were > > on the Nonesuch > > You named a few of mine plus vinyl from the early computer music > conferences. > > > they are so danged heavy. I have three of them: B3, M3 and X77. > > Havent banged on one of those in years, nothing like Taccota&fuege/Dminor > to a rock beat on a full bore C3... gave the prof gray hair. > > Allison > And to my ears, there's nothing like a full-bore Hammond being driven by Jon Lord from Deep Purple. Nobody, but nobody gets that angry, hulking, growling sound from an organ like Lord. Speaking of Tomita....on his "Bermuda Triangle" album (mine is on blue vinyl......) he included an encoded message that required someone with a Tarbell cassette interface to read. I never had the necessary equipment, and it's always bugged me as to what the message was. Has anyone here ever decoded it? I'm not familiar with Subotnick. What is his style? Is it more like Carlos, Tomita, or Fast? Or, something completely different? Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 26 20:34:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> >And to my ears, there's nothing like a full-bore Hammond being driven by Jon Lord from Deep Purple. Nobody, but nobody gets that angry, hulking, growling sound from an organ like Lord. Before I quit I tried to get that sound... no idea how he did that. Speaking of Tomita....on his "Bermuda Triangle" album (mine is on blue vinyl......) he included an encoded message that required Majorly cool color. someone with a Tarbell cassette interface to read. I never had the necessary equipment, and it's always bugged me as to what the message was. Has anyone here ever decoded it? I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. I'm not familiar with Subotnick. What is his style? Is it more like Carlos, Tomita, or Fast? Or, something completely different? Little of all, different than all. We should talk in terms of how old computers were used for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We always seem to have one and often they are as interesting as any even if they are OT. Allison Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 21:43:43 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: > I'm not familiar with Subotnick. What is his style? Is it more like > Carlos, Tomita, or Fast? Or, something completely different? > > > Little of all, different than all. He fooled around with early FM boxes. He also (on a few albums, anyway) mixed in real instrumentation. > We should talk in terms of how old computers were used > for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We > always seem to have one and often they are as interesting > as any even if they are OT. Well, the problem seems to be that all* of the old analog synth guys had no clue when it came to digital electronics and computers. Mr. Moog once said something like "if you threw five pounds of shit in a box and it made a sound, it sold". If you looks at how MIDI is done, or the circuits in some of the old samplers and drum machines, you will see what I mean! Makes you want to knaw your thumbs off. *Roger Powell of Utopia/Todd Rundgren fame seems to have a clue, as he stopped making music to work for SGI. I think he used to write for Byte every so often. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 21:51:52 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <000001bfdfd2$c6173880$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would being > passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they > didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the > highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum > support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education programs, etc. RCS/RI does this alreay (and also because we are moving away from the micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers turned out to be a big jerk... On the flip side, we at RCS/RI can not devote tons of time to selling stuff at auction, so lots of what we get does end up not being sold, but given away and so forth. > I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same > direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at > this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are > aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made > there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians) > /preservationists) accordingly. It is actually happening without the need to "structure ourselves". It happens with all new fields of collectables. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jlewczyk at his.com Mon Jun 26 22:13:40 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Apple Profile Hard Drive info wanted In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002301bfdfe5$b1575a20$013da8c0@Corellian> I'm restoring a Lisa 2 and just got a Profile drive. Does anyone have the schematics for the drive? Its got a DB-25 female connector on the back to hook up to the Lisa's "parallel" DB-25 on the back. I don't have the original cable and I'm thinking of trying an old 6 foot PC cable (all 25 signals in it) Male-to-Male DB-25 to hook it up. Any reasons why this won't work? John jlewczyk@his.com From transit at lerctr.org Mon Jun 26 22:13:09 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: [...] Hammond Organs, Subotnick, etc. > > We should talk in terms of how old computers were used > for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We > always seem to have one and often they are as interesting > as any even if they are OT. There is an electronic organ mailing list, if anyone's interested, let me know....There are also some synth lists (including a build-your-own synth list) floating around out there. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 26 22:16:37 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > RCS/RI does this alreay (and also because we are moving away from the > micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers > turned out to be a big jerk... I should point out that the jerk was _not_ the guy that won the Lisa (a delivery attempt was scrubbed due to miscommunication). Sorry about any "confusion". Just don't want to step on the wrong toes. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Jun 26 23:31:48 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bfdff0$9bd5fa20$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > Sounds like a great way to raise funds for the museums would be -> > passed up this way. The museum could always auction off what they -> > didn't need, on site or on the Web, offer on lists like this one to the -> > highest bidder, etc. Funds raised this way could then go for museum -> > support, other acquisitions, expansion, public education -> >programs, etc. -> -> RCS/RI does this already (and also because we are moving away from the -> micro and workstation arena). Too bad one of our first Ebay customers -> turned out to be a big jerk... Sorry to hear one of the first deals went bad. Or was that comment a dig at someone we know? How have the other auctions been doing? -> On the flip side, we at RCS/RI can not devote tons of time to selling -> stuff at auction, so lots of what we get does end up not being sold, but -> given away and so forth. Perhaps someone hired to perform this task would pay for their salary and more? Maybe someone hired on a commission basis? -> > I think the vintage computer field is slowly heading in the same -> > direction as the antique/vintage radio arena, which is fairly mature at -> > this point. The parallels are significant and I'm sure many of you are -> > aware of this. We can all learn by the mistakes and achievements made -> > there and structure ourselves (vintage computer collectors/historians) -> > /preservationists) accordingly. -> It is actually happening without the need to "structure ourselves". It -> happens with all new fields of collectibles. Perhaps I should have used the word "pattern"? Yes, similar things occur with most collectibles and their followers. Clubs, newsletters, meets, conventions, suppliers, etc. I think though that as far as logistics go, we have much more in common with the antique radio collectors than with collectors of Beanie Babies. The point I am trying to make is that all we have to do is observe where the Antique Radio Collector field is today and how it got there. We are following the same path. We can take shortcuts and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is not a fad, vintage computers are not Star Wars figures. Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues, and non-profit status would be a great boost to this collecting field. We are already having the equivalent of the AWA regional meets with the VCF, there are contests, and there are some clubs. However, I'm not aware of any _major_ Vintage Computer Newsletters (virtual or otherwise), and I don't feel discussion groups are in the same category. By newsletter, I mean something with articles focused on specific hardware, software, restoration techniques help columns and wanted to buy/sell area. I know there are those that dread this hobby or whatever you want to call it heading in an organized direction, with the attendant increase of publicity and collectors. Why do I think this way? I see two types of vintage computer collectors, the true historical preservationists and the collectors. Collectors see organization and all that comes with it as a threat to their ability to find those rare pieces (find it first) and increased competition (pay as little as possible for it). Why else all the complaining about eBay and the prices? Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our computer technology for posterity. If an organized association greatly furthers this cause than I believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not limiting "we" to mean just those on this list, but also those on the many other vintage/classic hardware and software lists as well. This can only help but further our cause of historical preservation. Comments? Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 00:10:12 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <000501bfdff0$9bd5fa20$62e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > Sorry to hear one of the first deals went bad. Or was that comment a > dig at someone we know? How have the other auctions been doing? No one on this list, I think - I pointed the deal out because a -1 feedback is a black eye. Anyway, some email problems killed communications for a few days after the auction ended, so this jerk concluded that we killed the deal off and put up more fibre. Six days is a very short time to jump to a conclusion, but this guy did and gave us bad feedback. We are doing well with the auctions - mostly non-vintage stuff like ethernet things and fibre. We have a few cool things coming up soon, like a Apples III and IIGS (Woz edition), a Commodore PET of some sort, probably some old workstation stuff, maybe a few other bits a pieces. And fibre...lots of fibre. > Perhaps someone hired to perform this task would pay for their salary > and more? > Maybe someone hired on a commission basis? If we had five figures of things to move, that would be an idea, but for our volume it is not reasonable. > we have much more in common with the antique radio collectors than with > collectors of Beanie Babies. The point I am trying to make is that all > we have to do is observe where the Antique Radio Collector field is > today > and how it got there. We are following the same path. We can take > shortcuts > and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is not a fad, vintage > computers > are not Star Wars figures. Even Star Wars figure and Beanie Baby collecting has gone thru the same motions - it really is just a natural evolution. > However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues, and > non-profit > status would be a great boost to this collecting field. It is a great idea, but I think we do not have critical mass. We also don't have someone that is willing to be the editor of a newsletter. > However, I'm not aware of > any > _major_ Vintage Computer Newsletters (virtual or otherwise) CHAC had a good one, but it seems that organization is in a holding pattern. > goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our computer > technology > for posterity. If an organized association greatly furthers this cause > than I > believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not limiting > "we" to mean > just those on this list, but also those on the many other > vintage/classic hardware > and software lists as well. I am a proponent of the museum system (uhh...obviously, I guess), so I tend to preach in that direction: I think that the best way to grow the hobby into something serious is to form regional organizations. RCS/RI is one of them - we grew out of a few guys in Providence, RI, that were interested in older systems. We have grown a little in number, but we have collected a whole big bunch of machines, software, and documentation. Most of what we have was only saved because we were able to pull together as a group, sharing expenses to get or ship the equipment, and to pay for the rent for our space. The machines are basically community owned, so if a member leaves for any reason, the collection remains basically intact (there are a few machines in the collection that are privately owned). We have long term plans - things like newsletters, shows, a real exhibition hall, etc.. I think we will actually hit some our goals as well, as we do have a number of dedicated people. I would urge just about everyone on this list to look into joining or forming a group. The rewards are great. Rhode Island, that little state tucked away on the East, has two groups, RCS/RI and RICM. The West Coast has the Computer History Center (I bet they wouldn't mind a few volunteers). I am quite suprised that the DC area is lacking any group, as it seems to be a hotbed of vintage computing. The same strikes me about the Midwest (Chicago) as well. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 26 23:12:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: <003701bfdfd7$efff4570$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > >And to my ears, there's nothing like a full-bore Hammond being > driven by Jon Lord from Deep Purple. Nobody, but nobody gets that > angry, hulking, growling sound from an organ like Lord. > > Before I quit I tried to get that sound... no idea how he did that. Maybe he ran it through a distortion pedal? (just a stupid thought :) > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Mon Jun 26 17:08:57 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Do I look Rich ? Message-ID: <000001bfe033$1997b5b0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> But you also had quite a few freebies after the article. So I guess that it was mostly positive. And you probably had a good laugh when you read that guys e-mail. Let's do pizza or something Francois PS: Yeah you must be rich, You were in the paper:) >Had a guy e-mail me that wanted to sell a Osborne (do not which model) >but he wanted $3,500 and was not sure if it worked. That's what happens >when you get your name in the paper. If anyone else wants it let me >know. >John Keys > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 27 07:28:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. > The other two were KB (Kilobaud) and IA (interface age). Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 07:28:50 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Tarbell Casette Interface 4 Sale (Was: RE: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9C@TEGNTSERVER> > Speaking of Tomita....on his "Bermuda Triangle" album (mine is on > blue vinyl......) he included an encoded message that required > > Majorly cool color. > > someone with a Tarbell cassette interface to read. I never had the > necessary equipment, and it's always bugged me as to what the > message was. Has anyone here ever decoded it? I'm not sure who I'm replying to, as someone's quoting mechanism is working even worse than Outlook's.... But what a coincidence that I'm planning to put a Tarbell Casette Interface up on E-Bay today. My reserve price will be $100, and while it does not include documentation, and I have not tested it, I am including a 1983 Tarbell Electronics catalog (ok, big woo). I thought I'd post here in case someone didn't want to fight the traffic; plus it'd save me a few bucks for the posting. -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 07:43:47 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9D@TEGNTSERVER> > A few thoughts on this; > > 1) Don't make public posts questioning a vendors integrity prior to making > a good effort to settle the issue privately. This will include waiting more > than two business days for a reply. I went back and carefully read what I posted; a strict deconstruction of your phrase "questioning a vendor's integrity" does not seem to apply to what I said. I thought the tone of my post was respectful if somewhat apprehensive. I did not question his integrity; I merely related my experience and queried others as to theirs. And as to waiting two business days, let me say this. We all tend to expect instant results from anything involving a computer, forgetting that a human component is still in the loop that doesn't respond at the speed of light. However, I use delivery and read receipts on all my mail, and if I at least get a receipt back, then I know I'm most likely "in the queue". Failure to receive same leaves me wondering if my message was even received. Not all ISPs and mailers support receipts, I know; as to the ISP problem, scripts can provide the equivalent function. For mailers, all that's required is to switch to a different mailer. If anyone finds the receipts distasteful, they can decline to use them, but they risk what almost happened in this case. To summarize, had I gotten a receipt, I'd have waited as patiently as is possible for me, but I'd have waited. > 2) DOA happens on old drives, so do a dozen other end user mess ups that > keep them from spinning up or working. The drive could be fine, and you > just have a wimpy power supply or a jumper set wrong. Bzzt. Sorry, nope. The power supply is driving two diff SCSI drives that are full-height 5.25 inch units (HP 97548's, I believe). No way a wimpy 3.5 half-height drive is sucking more juice. > 3) Look at the ad terms carefully, not wishfully. Does it say 100% tested, > or just no DOA? If the latter it may be he has a stack of "mostly" good > drives and no desire to test them before shipping at $15 each. It said "just not DOA", and the drive was just plain DOA. regards, -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 07:45:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9E@TEGNTSERVER> > > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. Jim Warren's Interface Age magazine (successor to the journal of the Southern California Computer Society's SCCS Interface)...? -doug q From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 13:49:12 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Sidecar (was: Re: Do I look Rich ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26-Jun-00, you wrote: > > > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: >> >> Sorry, Mark, I already have one, to which I just added a Sidecar. I think I > > Did you ever get the Sidecar to work? Did a bench test w/o the amiga, and didn't see any smoke (good sign?). I heard the HD make its expected noises, so at this point in time, I think the PC part works. Might have a prob in the shared memory part going to the Amiga. I have to clear out an area on the bench to set up everything. > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 08:08:18 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Interface Age? (was: Re: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > > > > I ment to. The cut FYI from playing with other "floppy roms" > > has to be very clean and right on pitch. IA or was it byte did > > a few of them as tryouts. Marginally successful. > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. IA = Interface Age? (An early computer magazine, from the late 70's and early 80's) I do remember the "Floppy Roms" ('soundsheets' or really thin 45-rpm records that could be bound into a magazine. Remember those free records that came on cereal boxes? Same sort of thing, but without the cardboard backing) From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 27 08:58:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Computer controlled pipe organs (was: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: > > [...] Hammond Organs, Subotnick, etc. > > > > We should talk in terms of how old computers were used > > for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We > > always seem to have one and often they are as interesting > > as any even if they are OT. Well, then let's get a discussion going about the uses of older computers with music, from real-time synthesis performed by computers to computers controlling synthesizers. I always thought it would be fun to have a large old pipe organ controlled by a hulking minicomputer with blinking lights, paying Bach's Fuge in D-minor, and, also controlled by the same system, special-effects lighting, a few fair-sized jacob's ladders and tesla coils... with all the circuitry external to the computer used for switching done by vacuum-tube circuitry, not SCRs, transistors, etc. :-) Does anyone know of any Wurlitzers controlled by computers or retrofitted to be controlled by computers? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 27 09:19:02 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Pipe organ controlled computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bfe042$a56646b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I thought I'd enter into the record an early classicmp experience. I got a chance to see the workings of a piece of office equipment, a memorywriter caller an "AutoTypist" being tossed by G.E. in 1980. It was a desk with an adapted typewriter on top (missing on this one) and a player piano roll underneath. The differences between this and the piano were probably neglible, when you looked at how the 'memory' part worked, paper rolls, air compressor, pressure pickup, mini bellows actuators. I never researched the history but I think the nameplate is saved somewhere if someone wanted to locate the (remnants of the) company. John A. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 16:05:05 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Computer controlled pipe organs (was: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello R. On 27-Jun-00, you wrote: >> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, allisonp wrote: >> >> [...] Hammond Organs, Subotnick, etc. >>> >>> We should talk in terms of how old computers were used >>> for music or declare this the official off topic thread. We >>> always seem to have one and often they are as interesting >>> as any even if they are OT. > > Well, then let's get a discussion going about the uses of older > computers with music, from real-time synthesis performed by computers > to computers controlling synthesizers. I always thought it would be > fun to have a large old pipe organ controlled by a hulking > minicomputer with blinking lights, paying Bach's Fuge in D-minor, and, > also controlled by the same system, special-effects lighting, a few > fair-sized jacob's ladders and tesla coils... with all the circuitry > external to the computer used for switching done by vacuum-tube > circuitry, not SCRs, transistors, etc. :-) Does anyone know of any > Wurlitzers controlled by computers or retrofitted to be controlled by > computers? > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 The only thing I know of, is a kit to retrofit Hammonds for midi, send only. So you can tie a keyboard in with your Hammond, but a computer can't play. Are you trying to replace my job with a button? GRRROOOWWWWLLLLLL!!?!? > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 27 10:11:29 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:02 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:31:48 -0400 "Bill Dawson" writes: > Perhaps I should have used the word "pattern"? Yes, similar things > occur with most collectibles and their followers. Clubs, newsletters, > meets, conventions, suppliers, etc. I think though that as far as > logistics go, we have much more in common with the antique radio > collectors than with collectors of Beanie Babies. Yeah, Beanie Baby prices are actually starting to go *down*. :^/ > The point I am trying to make is that all we have to do is observe > where the Antique Radio Collector field is today and how it got there. > We are following the same path. God forbid. I'm glad I have little or no interest in 'Vintage' radio-- I'd never be able to afford it. > We can take shortcuts and avoid pitfalls. Vintage computer collecting is > not a fad, No quite, but damn near > Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put > on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even afford the air fare. I know I can't. > However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues, and > non-profit status would be a great boost to this collecting field. Yeah, it's gonna give prices a real boost, alright. Tell me how you think any kind of 'boost' is going to help, huh? I can see it now: I'm at a local surplus place, and I pick out Widget (or a part for one, more likely), and ask for a price. The guys says "Uhhh, well, those are *collectable* now, you know. $50.". Never mind the fact that I got one like it the year before for $10. > I know there are those that dread this hobby or whatever you want to > call it heading in an organized direction, with the attendant increase of > publicity and collectors. Why do I think this way? I see two types of > vintage computer collectors, the true historical preservationists and > the collectors. Isn't it odd, how "True historical preservationists" always seem to have the *deepest* pockets? > Collectors see organization and all that comes with it as a threat to > their ability to find those rare pieces (find it first) and increased > competition (pay as little as possible for it). Oh, okay, so I'm a 'collector' because I don't have thousands of dollars to throw at this. I see. I don't know about you, but I got into this because, at long last, I found a truly interesting hobby I could actually *afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as possible'. That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . . I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's. I was priced out of numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand idly by, to watch this happen again. > Why else all the complaining about eBay and the prices? Because alot of us won't be able to participate if the prices get too high, or are you so wealthy that this is too difficult for you to comprehend?!?! > Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our > computer technology for posterity. Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few. > If an organized association greatly furthers this cause than I > believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not > limiting "we" to mean just those on this list, but also those on > the many other vintage/classic hardware and software lists as well. > This can only help but further our cause of historical preservation. And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' can have it. This hobby is about people, as much as it is about technology (old and new). If you're going to squeeze out a group of its people, you may as well forget the group of technology that will get squeezed out with them, for the ones who are in charge won't care. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 27 10:48:18 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? URL for the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=359971659 Bill From louiss at gate.net Tue Jun 27 10:51:21 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Apple Profile Hard Drive info wanted In-Reply-To: <002301bfdfe5$b1575a20$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <200006271551.LAA13498@shuswap.gate.net> The straight through cable will work. Apple usually used straight through ribbon cables. If the drive doesn't work, describe the symptoms. Louis On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:13:40 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >I'm restoring a Lisa 2 and just got a Profile drive. Does anyone have the >schematics for the drive? > >Its got a DB-25 female connector on the back to hook up to the Lisa's >"parallel" DB-25 on the back. I don't have the original cable and I'm >thinking of trying an old 6 foot PC cable (all 25 signals in it) >Male-to-Male DB-25 to hook it up. Any reasons why this won't work? > >John > >jlewczyk@his.com > > From pat at transarc.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 11:14:57 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. > > There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? Doesn't appear to be anything special about it - chalk it up to "temporary eBay insanity", I guess ... But hey, if anyone wants to pay me $700 for my TRS-80 Model 1 in exactly the same configuration, send me a note.... ;-) --Pat. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 17:06:49 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: Hello Bill On 27-Jun-00, you wrote: > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. > > There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? It is the same reason we pay a dollar for drinks at our fast food outlets, and two dollars a gallon at the pumps. Too much money, too little schmarts. > > URL for the auction: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=359971659 > > Bill > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 11:23:47 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. > > There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? I think a lot of the bidding wars are just psychological. "I gotta win at any price", when, if they'd just back down and look around a little more, they'd find the exact same thing at 1/10th the price. There are also a lot of newbies who think most of the 80's home computers are collectors items that are going to substantially appreciate in value. (For the most part, they won't.) When I'm on E-bay, or whatever, I have my own idea of what a fair price is (certainly not a bare TRS-80 Model 1 for $700 bucks). From PasserM at umkc.edu Tue Jun 27 11:43:25 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735114@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I saw that one too--it had to be the description! --Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 10:48 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? URL for the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=359971659 Bill From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 11:55:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000627095400.02b01910@208.226.86.10> At 11:48 AM 6/27/00 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion >box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for >$700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. Badly done shill bidding? Perhaps the 0 feedback guy is an ebay streaker, you know one of those folks who bids outrageously and then vanishes. --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 11:48:53 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo References: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3958DAF5.4D2C6407@rain.org> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > /most of rant deleted > Isn't it odd, how "True historical preservationists" always seem to > have the *deepest* pockets? Isn't it also odd how the people with these "deep pockets" also seem to get a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and see what it means. > *afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as > possible'. > That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . . > > I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's. I was priced out of > numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand > idly by, to watch this happen again. Take a look at my prior comment. A book you might want to look at (but probably won't) is "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason. > > Why else all the complaining about eBay and the prices? > > Because alot of us won't be able to participate if the prices get > too high, or are you so wealthy that this is too difficult for you > to comprehend?!?! See comment #1. > > Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our > > computer technology for posterity. > > Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a > worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are > going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few. See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people that get things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would not want someone without the ability to manage having any control over my collection. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 11:52:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? References: <000701bfe04f$1ce0b570$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <3958DBD9.CCFF19F6@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion > box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for > $700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. First, some people have more money than time. Second, the person who wrote the ad did a nice job (except for the time to download the damn thing.) I've noticed that the people who spend the time to really describe something get higher bids; an increase in bidder confidence? From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 27 11:53:16 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bfe058$30d87820$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Earn $150 an hour in WWW development! This may be proof of the appeal of a good looking web page. Fourteen photos, different fonts & layout, snazzy descriptios. Could that add up to all those hundreds? Probably not for every case but its my guess for this one. (I hope it wasn't just that BS Microsoft picture) John A. From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 27 12:40:03 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735114@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: <200006271740.KAA25582@civic.hal.com> "Passer, Michael" wrote: > I saw that one too--it had to be the description! > Hi Did anyone ask the bidders why they went so high? There may be a valid reason. Looking at the other bidders history, the next higher bidder was a regular buyer. The winning bid was by someone that has made no other purchases. He could have been a fake and wanted to see how high things would go. I would be quite interested to see how the sale goes through. The buyer has also resently changed his handle. Makes one wonder? Dwight From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 27 13:15:27 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:48:53 -0700 Marvin writes: > Isn't it also odd how the people with these "deep pockets" also seem > to get > a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and > see what > it means. Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go: So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of a such as noble endeavor such as ours? So your saying: "Sorry, if you can't pay, you don't deserve to play". What a crock of shit. Accomplish what!?! All it means to me is, is that some guys can delude themselves into thinking that if they pour money into something, they can call it a hobby. They haven't go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well, what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff. Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're kidding yourself. > See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people > that get > things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would > not want > someone without the ability to manage having any control over my > collection. Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't know that something existed before. Yeah, we're going to pass this all on, right? Yeah, when we're all dead, and there no one around to tell the story . . . Now as a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's ass about your collection. What you do with it is *your* business. What I *do* care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something else to do, because the prices are out of sight. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From PasserM at umkc.edu Tue Jun 27 13:28:12 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773511C@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> The highest unsuccessful bid was also for $700 by someone with a feedback rating of 232. He didn't succeed because the winner had placed his $700 bid the day before. There were four bids for >$600, and one for $250. (from http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=359971659) I do think it was the well-written description and all the pictures that pushed the price up into the stratosphere. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dwight Elvey Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 12:40 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: $700 TRS-80??? "Passer, Michael" wrote: > I saw that one too--it had to be the description! > Hi Did anyone ask the bidders why they went so high? There may be a valid reason. Looking at the other bidders history, the next higher bidder was a regular buyer. The winning bid was by someone that has made no other purchases. He could have been a fake and wanted to see how high things would go. I would be quite interested to see how the sale goes through. The buyer has also resently changed his handle. Makes one wonder? Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 27 13:35:56 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <000627143556.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> >I do think it was the well-written description and >all the pictures that pushed the price up into the >stratosphere. Very true. I remember trying to give some stuff (a bunch of 42" racks, old 14" disk drives, etc.) away five or so years ago, and nobody was interested. But then I attached a price and got several folks to show up to take it away. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 13:24:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Jun 27, 0 10:11:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4513 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/0669647f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 13:29:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: <3958DAF5.4D2C6407@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 27, 0 09:48:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/b6446223/attachment-0001.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 13:40:31 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > > Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put > > on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. > > I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even > afford the air fare. I know I can't. So what? At least some people can afford to go. For a lucky few, it might just be a short trip in the car. Better a few than none... > Yeah, it's gonna give prices a real boost, alright. Tell me how > you think any kind of 'boost' is going to help, huh? How about real museums? How about speadiung knowledge - informing the public and each other about the history? How about saving hardware and software that is out of the reach af any individual? How about professional recognition? How about security for our collections? > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > can have it. Jeff, take your stinking attitude and get out of town. Please. The one thing that hurts retrocomputing more than anything else is someone like you. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bill at chipware.com Tue Jun 27 13:52:54 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773511C@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: <000801bfe068$e6b51170$350810ac@chipware.com> Ok, Ok. I just wanted to be sure that it didn't have some unusual feature that I should go home and check my TRS-80s for. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 14:13:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA8@TEGNTSERVER> Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking up a working computer to end up with parts he can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. FWIW, I was going to steal one part- the plexiglass door of the TS05 tape drive- to put in place of a broken one on a Cipher. The broken Cipher door works, even broken, and will still work when glued back together- it will just look like sh*t. How- ever, I would have either preserved the system in all other ways, or even tried restoring it. Well, souless b*st*rds are prolifigate, and some are circling overhead like vultures. The only good note: I'll get the TS05 for US$5.00. I doubt I'll take the rack. Perhaps someday I'll need a part from the TS05 (assuming it *IS* really a Cipher streamer inside). Oh well. Hi ho. -doug quebbeman From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 14:15:42 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the collecting cost issue again. This was one of Jeff's salvos: >What I *do* >care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue >computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something >else to do, because the prices are out of sight. This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based machines). These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are also available for free in quite a few places. You can approach this particular class of machine as the point where computers ceased being glorified "toys" and actually started being able to do real work. If the IBM PC made it "acceptable" for mainstream business to give its employees one computer each, it was the PC/AT that cemented this relationship and made it possible to do work. This was the "start" of the "Millions of standards" bifurcation in the computer industry, as up to this point computers were "99%" PC compatible because everything was the same on them. PC/AT introduced us to an I/O slot that could support a larger memory map and that lead to a host of new video controllers (several examples could be collected from the "famous" ones like the Orchid series and Hercules series, to the "infamous" ones.) Analog monitors came about to support these cards and the very first "multisync" monitor was introduced. [it impressed the heck out of me, even if it did make big clicking noises as it tryed to swap in different components.] There is research to be done, knowledge to recover, and artifacts to collect. All at very low prices. Then there is the understanding of Computation, as Richard Feynman and others understood it, things like the Babbage difference engine and the Eniac. Often you can re-create this sort of thing from scratch as a hobby for less than it would cost to acquire an original artifact. People still by Digi-Comp 1's at Garage Sales for $1 even when they go for >$300 on Ebay and elsewhere. You can make your own Digi-Comp 1 out of plastic from plans on the Net for about $50. Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well recognized while others remain anonymous. If you want one of those machines then you are now going to have to compete with this group of people to acquire one. New ones aren't being made (except for IMSAI's :-) so the supply is fixed/dwindling. You can compete with your feet by tracking nice pieces down (this is essentially what Antique Dealers have done forever) or with your wallet. You can complain about how your feet are tired and your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 27 14:32:30 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <000627153230.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > can have it. Do we need 'true historical preservationists'? Maybe. Does that mean that the priorities of the 'true preservationists' will be the same as those who actually worked with the systems or still use the systems? Of course not. In fact, the priorities will probably be vastly different between the two groups, and this is all the better reason for both groups to co-exist, probably with at least a bit of animosity towards each other. How do priorities differ, even among "hobby" preservationists? Several ways: 1. Some insist on a pristine as-shipped-from-the-manufacturer system, with no third-party peripherals or software, and others realize that in real life there were very few such configurations and instead preserve the systems as they were actually installed, with third-party peripherals and software abounding. 2. Some only care about CPU's, and will travel hundreds or thousands of miles to pick up the CPU box, and leave the peripherals (necessary to boot the OS!) behind. Others put more emphasis on getting a few complete working systems rather than a bunch of CPU boxes that can't ever be booted. 3. Some haul away hardware, and leave a mountain of magtapes behind with the operating system, etc. Others haul away hardware and tapes and disks but leave the books behind. Others just want the books, others just want the tapes. I've seen every single one of the above characteristics exhibited by "amateur" collectors, and every single one of the above possibilities exhibited by "professional" collectors. Personally, I fall into the "put any old hardware together that makes a system work, don't care whether it's original or third party, get complete systems with peripherals, and spend lots of time archiving the software" category. Every person on this list probably falls into a different category. I may not agree with everyone's priorities, but in some sense a wide range of priorities from a wide range of people is a *probably* a good thing. Tim. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 14:53:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Internat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA9@TEGNTSERVER> > Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go: > So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of > a such as noble endeavor such as ours? Jeff, I'm using your quote as a starting point, please don't think I'm picking on you. Well, somewhere between rich and poor (I tend to count myself the latter), there must be middle ground. My current focus is on Primes, and I'm playing fast-and- loose with my bills (as well as selling things I'd rather keep) to try to get this system to a certain point where I'll feel comfortable with. However, had I managed to save that MicroPDP-11/73 from the Jaws of Greed, I would likely have simply held on to it until I could find a better home for it. Strictly speaking, I'd say that's collecting and not preservationist. But at least I'd have kept it from the landfill. Ideally, the poor collectors amongst us can do lots of that. But I think it's incumbent upon us to be ready to give up posession to someone who can do the item more justice than we can. I think a phrase commonly stated about relationships might be applicable here. Rephrased: If you love something, let it go. I'm letting go of at least one of two unfinished SOL motherboards very, very soon (but my original working SOL I will keep). As to the rich: by virtue of your economic power, you might easily fall into the trap of compulsive acquisition. Fewer constraints hold you back, and so the ID runs wild. Had the Evil Lurker been restoring a personal system with the parts he was looking for, it would not have bothered me a wit. I'd like to take solace in knowing there's a good chance someone restoring a system will see the parts he has for sale, and buy them. But I'm afraid they'll just enter a nonterminating speculative loop. So, to the rich, let me say this: try to be aware of what's going on around you, and if you see you're trying to acquire something that some poor guy is also going for, remember, this may be his only chance, and you'll likely have another. And to the poor guys (like me), I say: be willing to give something up to someone who can actually get it going sooner than the 20 years it might take you due to your more limited financial resources. Just my tuppence' worth... regards, -doug q From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 13:56:02 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > I would urge just about everyone on this list to look into joining or > forming a group. The rewards are great. Rhode Island, that little state > tucked away on the East, has two groups, RCS/RI and RICM. The West Coast > has the Computer History Center (I bet they wouldn't mind a few > volunteers). I am quite suprised that the DC area is lacking any group, as > it seems to be a hotbed of vintage computing. The same strikes me about > the Midwest (Chicago) as well. I totally concur. More people should band together in their regions to form computer history centers. In the very least get clubs going where you meet at least once a month to swap hints & tips and work on machines together. We have an informal "club" here in the Bay Area where we meet monthly at the offices of Stan Sieler. Stan picks a rough theme and we all bring machines to work on. We swap stuff, bring information and parts that others need, etc. It's a lot of fun. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 13:58:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: TRON Movie Soundtrack LP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Damn, I can't remember the name of the magazine but it wasn't Byte and I'm > > having trouble figuring out what IA is, but at any rate I have those > > issues with the floppy ROMs still intact. > > The other two were KB (Kilobaud) and IA (interface age). You were right the first time around. It is Interface Age. I found the issues with the floppy ROMs today. I also came across a good run of KC but didn't look through them. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 15:01:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Now, alas, there's no way I could afford a valve radio at the prices they > sell for over here. A common battery portable, useless to most people > because the batteries are impossible to obtain, sells for \pounds 50.00. > Anything Bakelite is going to sell for over \pounds 100.00. Computers or radio - why all this thinking that they are all expensive? Certainly there are scores of free computers (good ones, too) available all of the time. Do what I do - TRADE. You need to build up some trading stock, but that is not hard nor is it expensive. Then start the swaps. You might also start selling stuff at hamfest (rallies) - it always suprises me what little bit of junk I manage to sell, most of which I have no money in. Now this won't make so much money that you can retire (well, maybe if your really good), but a good day at a hamfest might make that radio or computer you have been eyeing look VERY affordable. For example, I have a lot of junk. And I mean a lot of junk. It basically consists of parts pulled out of whatever freebies I get that are not worth keeping, minus the parts I keep for my own projects. The junk gets thrown into big grey bins and hauled to the hamfest. The pricing is simple - the _buyer_ names the price and I take it. Most people are very fair, and on a good day, I can make a nice lump of cash on just the junk out of the bins. With that money, a $100 radio or computer part is not an impossible dream. In fact it can be quite painless. > I've actually heard it said that the person who pays more for an item is > the person who most wants it, and who will best look after it. To which > there is only one sane answer : Rubbish. I have seen a lot of collections around the country, many of quite notable "deep pocket" collectors, and I can conclude that these "big guns" do treat their collections better than the norm. Just an observation. And before someone puts words in my mouth - this does _not_ mean that that the all (or even most) "normal" collectors treat their things poorly. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:01:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE9D@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > loop that doesn't respond at the speed of light. However, I > use delivery and read receipts on all my mail, and if I at > least get a receipt back, then I know I'm most likely "in > the queue". Failure to receive same leaves me wondering if > my message was even received. Not all ISPs and mailers support I'd be more worried if my message was received but then not replied to. I'd feel more comfortable if I didn't get a receipt yet. That would imply the person is too busy to even check e-mail yet. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 27 15:06:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Internat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) Message-ID: <000627160652.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> >Had the Evil Lurker been restoring a personal system >with the parts he was looking for, it would not have >bothered me a wit. On the gripping hand, I know of some "collectors" (as in they acquire large amounts of stuff without looking for commercial gain) who will, for example, rip all the boards out of a working VAX 8650 but leave the chassis behind, because they have no way of hauling the chassis cabinets nor a place to put them. As far as I can tell, nobody wins here, because a working 8650 was turned into a pile of nearly-worthless parts that will simply sit in the basement for a couple of decades. Does this stop the offenders? Of course not! Tim. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 15:13:59 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA8@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627125942.00bc2f00@208.226.86.10> At 03:13 PM 6/27/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on >the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris >Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking >up a working computer to end up with parts he >can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He >wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the >seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. I'm sorry but I can't agree with the sentiment here. Chris and people like him are very valuable to this community, they will often have parts in their warehouses that can bring a new acquistion back to life after a long period of dormancy. This is one of the other aspects of Ebay that hasn't really been debated to death, which is that the people who make their living selling replacement/refurbished/used parts to keep older computers alive "discovered" Ebay not so long ago and suddenly the price of piece parts went up. I know of at least half a dozen folks who are DEC resellers (some even reading this list) that recognize an "ebay" bargain as such and act on it. Let's take for example Mitch Miller from Keyways, he sells DEC stuff (www.keyways.com) and he buys stuff on Ebay. Now Mitch quotes the price of an M8043 (last time I asked) at $125. I watched him buy four for $50 on Ebay. That is a really good deal for him. (Not so good for me) However, I do know that if I absolutely had to have one I could call up Mitch and he would send me one at some high price. Money == Time. However, knowing that this is true (resellers haunting ebay) I knew that "your" 11/73 would not be yours for less than about $75 (value of the parts in side of it) Although why he wanted the backplane I can't figure. On an unrelated note, I've got a 5' tall DEC rack (black and tan, door in the back) available for "free" FOB Sunnyvale California. Like most things, while it is in great shape it probably isn't worth the cost of shipping it unless you _really, really_ need an official DEC rack. It was half of a DEC Channel Server and has a coax patch panel inside of it. (which you can have or leave behind, your choice, but if you take the coax patch panel you must also take the rack, themz the rulez) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 27 15:15:54 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA8@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 27, 2000 03:13:41 PM Message-ID: <200006272015.NAA05039@shell1.aracnet.com> > Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on > the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris > Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking > up a working computer to end up with parts he > can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He > wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the > seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. Grow up! I don't know who he is, but I've a feeling he's someone trying to keep systems doing real work in operating order. You bid to low on a piece of valuable equipment, and you lost. Live with it. Especially since you were apparently told you were bidding low! You do realize that PDP-11's are more than just cool toys don't you? There are people/companies whose livelyhood depends on these systems and their continueing to run. The only thing I can see that the buyer did wrong was leaving the powersupply! At least from what you've said I assume he left it. If he went so far as to get the backplane he really should have taken that. Zane From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:14:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.101130.-432967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > Sellam and many others on this list have put forth great effort to put > > on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon. > > I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even > afford the air fare. I know I can't. C'mon. You gotta look for those super-saver airfare deals. Check out www.cheaptickets.com and www.bestfares.com for cheap airline specials. You can usually find roundtrip flights across the country for $198 or less. VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 at the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose (you'll want to land in SJO). Formal announcement coming soon. > Oh, okay, so I'm a 'collector' because I don't have thousands of dollars > to throw at this. I see. I don't know about you, but I got into this > because, at long last, I found a truly interesting hobby I could actually > *afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as > possible'. > That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . . Yeah, I have to agre with this sentiment. This "hobby" is about as official as you can get. It's definitely arrived. We don't need high prices established in order to make it any more legitimate. > I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's. I was priced out of > numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand > idly by, to watch this happen again. Preach on, Brother Jeff! ;) > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate' > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > can have it. There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian. > This hobby is about people, as much as it is about technology > (old and new). If you're going to squeeze out a group of its > people, you may as well forget the group of technology that > will get squeezed out with them, for the ones who are in charge > won't care. Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are responsbile for uncovering the history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 15:20:48 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Internat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) In-Reply-To: <000627160652.26200a6d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > On the gripping hand, I know of some "collectors" (as > in they acquire large amounts of stuff without looking for > commercial gain) who will, for example, rip all the boards out of > a working VAX 8650 but leave the chassis behind, because they have > no way of hauling the chassis cabinets nor a place to put them. As > far as I can tell, nobody wins here, because a working 8650 was turned > into a pile of nearly-worthless parts that will simply sit in the basement > for a couple of decades. Does this stop the offenders? Of course not! What if the machines are to be scrapped in a hurry, and no one can take the whole thing? I would think that gutting the things is the best option. A few parts are better than nothing... I have done this - specifically with a VAX-11/750 and 4D/380. These were advertised on this list in the very early days, but I was apparently the only one that could even get close to the machines. Needless to say, I couldn't take the machines as a whole, so the cards were pulled. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:41:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Heck, I couldn't even afford to get to VCF-Europe, let alone the States. > But if there's ever a VCF-UK, I'll be there. Somehow. I'll even volunteer > to bring some machines and give a talk. Philip Belben expressed an interest in organizing VCF-UK. I'm holding him up to it. I told him if he doesn't I was going to scan those pictures I have of him in a compromising position and spread them around the internet :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 13:46:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Jun 27, 0 01:15:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4237 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/d7f61ad4/attachment-0001.ksh From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 15:52:29 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue > computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that > are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based > machines). Anything else? (I've stuck mostly with 8-bit machines from the 80's...Apples, Commodores, etc. and generally pay about $25 on average per cpu..and, as far as I can tell, prices on these machines are falling. (Often, though, I've gotten stuff like this for free, just haul it away before it hits the trash can) Of course, there are anomalies, like the $700 TRS-80 we discussed earlier. (But that predates E-bay...check out some back issues of "Computer Shopper" from the early 90's, and try to find all the Timex Sinclairs someone was trying to foist off for $500+) [...] > > Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers > > Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on > antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in > this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well > recognized while others remain anonymous. Those are the usual suspects, Imsai, Altair, Apple I. But of course, there are a number of less well known machines: the SWTPC, the single boards like the KIM and AIM... An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes and parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same with collecting synthesizers. People will tack on "ARP Moog" to a description of some no-name keyboard and expect the world to be impressed... From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 15:53:25 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? References: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <39591445.89170BC8@rain.org> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:48:53 -0700 Marvin writes: > > Isn't it also odd how the people with these "deep pockets" also seem > > to get > > a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and > > see what > > it means. > > Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go: > So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of > a such as noble endeavor such as ours? Oh come on, do we have to play the "I have to use small words so you will understand" game? I hope not, but your "let's go" has nothing to do with what I said. "Worthy" is not the issue; getting something done *is* the issue. > So your saying: "Sorry, if you can't pay, you don't deserve to play". > What a crock of shit. Accomplish what!?! All it means to me is, > is that some guys can delude themselves into thinking that if they > pour money into something, they can call it a hobby. They haven't > go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well, > what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff. > > Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're > kidding yourself. See comment #1; don't put words in my mouth. As far as "paying", there have been *many* discussion on this list that most of this stuff is available free or very close to free for anyone willing to do the research. And for a few others, I also realize that where we live makes it easier or harder to acquire this stuff. Your statement about appreciation can be turned around to say that you cannot appreciate what it takes to make *and keep* money; both your and my statements have grains of truth in them. > > See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people > > that get > > things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would > > not want > > someone without the ability to manage having any control over my > > collection. > > Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing > cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell > that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell > that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't > know that something existed before. Yeah, we're going to pass > this all on, right? Yeah, when we're all dead, and there no > one around to tell the story . . . See comment #1. What I am saying is that if someone can't manage the resources they already have access to, then expecting others to subsidize the lack of management skills is more than a bit naive. > Now as a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's ass about your > collection. What you do with it is *your* business. What I *do* > care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue > computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something > else to do, because the prices are out of sight. , It also matters not at all to me what you think or do. At the point you leave the "poor me" attitude behind, and start looking at why your situation exists (whatever that might be), then you will *begin* to be able to do something about it (assuming you even want to.) Your complaints about prices are reflective of your attitudes and they don't seem to be particularly productive. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 27 14:53:38 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the collecting cost issue > again. This was one of Jeff's salvos: > > >What I *do* > >care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue > >computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something > >else to do, because the prices are out of sight. > > This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue > computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that > are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based > machines). > > These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are > also available for free in quite a few places. Other ideas: * create an archive of software...you can find disks for all types of computers at thrift stores and flea markets; generally a buck or less a piece; a software archive is a very important element in this hobby, since not many people seem to be archiving software on a large scale * create a classic computer book library...you can find them in hoards at thrift stores, library book sales, and of course used book stores (although used book store prices tend to be a little high usually); such a library will be an indespensible resource for your local computer collector community; don't forget computer manuals and software manuals as well * create an ephemera archive: t-shirts, buttons, posters, etc; this would basically be a material culture archive, which may bring you big bucks later on when a researcher or someone writing a book wants to borrow your collection to get some photos All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the machines). > You can complain about how your feet are tired and > your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. I like that :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:00:23 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yeah, I have to agre with this sentiment. This "hobby" is about as > official as you can get. It's definitely arrived. We don't need high > prices established in order to make it any more legitimate. How will the formation of an official group make prices go up? Please explain, as I don't see any connection. If anything, most official organizations _do_not_allow_ commercial dealing (generally outlawed from the museums and journals). Prices are independent, under some other influence. > There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall > there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with > computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the > sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into > researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian. There is certainly room for amateurs. I have no history degree, but I am welcome in several historical organizations. > Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are responsbile for uncovering the > history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee > they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being > the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual > collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario. I must disagree here - machines in the hands of museums is better. Museums are starting to recognize the history of computers, so many of the horror stories we hear about computers being mistreated (or vaporizing!) at museums are turning into just stories. Museums offer far greater security for the artifacts. It takes a great deal to destroy a museum and its contents. On the other hand, the death or sickness of one person can destroy a whole private collection. This happens all of the time - someone dies and the house is cleared out. For all of the talk about including parts of wills that can deal with these types of disasters - how many of us have _actually_ gone about doing it? In fact, I would like anyone on this list to email me privately with an answer if they have, and I will tally the results. I will keep individual answers confidential. Also, keep in mind that museums are public. Private collections are not. While there are some private collections that do a great job of showing off to the public, there are at least ten times that number that are very closed and effectively hidden. What good do those collections do for the advancement of knowledge? Not a whole lot. Certainly there are people on this list with very rare, significant machines, software, and docs, but they are not accessable in any way. Some won't even admit that they even have the artifacts. I would also bet that not a whole lot of private collectors would even entertain the thought of having a stranger view or study an artifact. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Jun 27 14:51:27 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) References: Message-ID: <015901bfe071$153b5740$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I'm not shure but couldn't this be circumvented with "driver.sys" It will take a few bytes of memory more than DRIVPARM but it should work on any IBM-compatibe system including the ones from big blue itself . Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:58 PM Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) > The problem with using DRIVPARM appears to be an incompatibility with the > IBM BIOS, NOT an issue of which version of the OS! > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:08:59 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAB@TEGNTSERVER> > At 03:13 PM 6/27/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on > >the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris > >Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking > >up a working computer to end up with parts he > >can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He > >wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the > >seller would have said NO, but that was not to be. > > I'm sorry but I can't agree with the sentiment here. I appear to have been guilty of projecting, in this case, reading into your previous remarks what I was feeling. Sorry. I'm desparately looking for parts, but I'd sooner cut off a limb than rob them from a working system until _every_ effort has been made to find a good home for that system. This one appeared to be lacking an OS (or anything for it to reside on) but I see that as minor compared to systems with disfunctional stuff in the backplace. But I gotta admit, I'm making way too much noise over a doggone PDP-11 when they aren't my forte to begin with. At least I get the tape drive. regards, -doug q From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 27 16:10:11 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <20000627.161019.-287727.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:40:31 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli writes: > So what? At least some people can afford to go. For a lucky few, it > might just be a short trip in the car. Better a few than none... If you can afford it, go. My point is that despite organized efforts, not everyone will have access (for various reasons). This isn't the promoter's fault; it's usually a matter of geography. > How about real museums? Nice, but individual ownership is a much more valuable experience (to the individual). Not possible once these systems become 'Museum Pieces'. > How about speadiung knowledge - informing the public and each > other about the history? We have forums like this one. But I guess you'll *need* an 'official' organization now: It's becomming apparent that only certain opinions are now considered 'acceptable'. > How about saving hardware and software that is out of the reach > af any individual? Groups of caring individuals have always worked together towards this end. In the past, the money wasn't a motivation. I don't know if this will reman the case in the future. > How about professional recognition? I always figured that the real {hobbyists | enthusiasts} weren't (by definition) 'professionals'. The original developers? Write one a letter, thanking them for their contribution. I did. How about security for our collections? Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked. > > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a > 'legitimate' > > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > > can have it. > > Jeff, take your stinking attitude and get out of town. Please. The > one thing that hurts retrocomputing more than anything else is someone > like you. You know, I could get really angry at this last remark, but it just makes me sad. (Retro)computing was a 'joy' thing. It was so awesome because just about anyone could experience it. It was really something special because it's only major cost was the time and effort you put into it. What really mattered was what came from the heart, really. What really matters now, is what comes from the wallet. I guess it really wasn't so special afterall. Bye. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:12:55 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Query about Meyers Computer Services of Jersey Shore, PA Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAC@TEGNTSERVER> > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > loop that doesn't respond at the speed of light. However, I > > use delivery and read receipts on all my mail, and if I at > > least get a receipt back, then I know I'm most likely "in > > the queue". Failure to receive same leaves me wondering if > > my message was even received. Not all ISPs and mailers support > > I'd be more worried if my message was received but then not replied to. > I'd feel more comfortable if I didn't get a receipt yet. That would imply > the person is too busy to even check e-mail yet. Hmmm, I'd say it would imply the person really isn't very technologically sophisticated... "Does that little envelope mean I've got mail, or that I should write some?" -dq From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 27 16:13:18 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <200006272113.OAA25861@civic.hal.com> Hi While I am a fixer upper type, I can afford reasonable prices for some of the items I've collected. There are a few things that I'd like to have but still think are out of my price range. Even though I don't collect for profit ( I couldn't think of parting with one of my babies ), I like to see that some of the items have enough value that they will not be considered so much junk to toss out. While eBay does cause the prices to inflate, it has also helped to preserve items that would have otherwise been treated as junk. Other than personal enjoyment, if these things didn't have value, they would have been tossed with old TV guides and no one would have any. What I'm trying to say is that it is a double edged sword. I don't think that the prices are anywhere as inflated as beany babies ( with the exception of the occasional gold plated TRS-80 ). Those that want the hobby to be more popular will have to realize that the limited resource will be more expensive. The comparison to old radios is a correct one. It is how it will be so long as there is demand. You can lament the change but it will still happen. I will pay what I think is a fair price. If that means that someone less fortunate than I won't get the item, I'm sorry. This is just the way life is. You can alway start a revolt and have a communist system. That way everyone will be equally poor. Misery loves company. Rule #1 Life isn't fair and never will be. A person just needs to understand that rule and how they can do the best they can. It sets limits. We don't have to like them. Some times we can even change them but they will always be there in one form or another. Dwight From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:16:33 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAD@TEGNTSERVER> > You do realize that PDP-11's are more than just cool toys don't you? There > are people/companies whose livelyhood depends on these systems and their > continueing to run. Nah, running a CAT scanner is just child's play. And AFAIC, I don't really want to play with a PDP-11; I just didn't want to see an otherwise complete system that was two components away from total restoration ripped to shreds! > The only thing I can see that the buyer did wrong was leaving the > powersupply! At least from what you've said I assume he left > it. If he went so far as to get the backplane he really should have > taken that. He's taking about a third, and leaving two thirds. The rack is staying behind too. But I guess DEC racks grow on trees. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 16:22:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Inte rnat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAE@TEGNTSERVER> > What if the machines are to be scrapped in a hurry, and no one can take > the whole thing? I would think that gutting the things is the best > option. A few parts are better than nothing... > > I have done this - specifically with a VAX-11/750 and 4D/380. These were > advertised on this list in the very early days, but I was apparently the > only one that could even get close to the machines. Needless to say, I > couldn't take the machines as a whole, so the cards were pulled. If that's the only choice- landfill or reduction to parts- sure, reduce it to parts. Sometimes, there's middle ground... -dq From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 27 16:22:43 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006272122.OAA25874@civic.hal.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall > there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with > computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the > sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into > researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian. Hi I would qualify this with the statement that the information needs to be passed on. This means that sharing what you've learned and documenting what you've got is as important as squirreling away a old machine. > Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are responsbile for uncovering the > history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee > they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being > the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual > collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario. Agreed. Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 16:34:33 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: References: <20000627.131608.-477383.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627143255.00d60b20@208.226.86.10> At 07:46 PM 6/27/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were >ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in. Sounds a bit like the joke, "What that place? Nobody goes there anymore, its too crowded!" --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 16:35:15 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: References: Message-ID: <39591E13.91D73040@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a > > > worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are > > > going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few. > > > > See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people that get > > things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would not want > > someone without the ability to manage having any control over my collection. > > > > Are you somehow suggesting that because I have almost no income and > little money that I am somehow clueless and not fit to own or work on > classic computers? > > Because if so, I take that as a very personal insult. I have no idea how you read "clueless ..." into "ability to manage". What I said was a statement of fact, and certainly not an insult to you or anyone else. My frame of reference in all of this is managing a large collection such as what a museum might have on display, or an organization such as the IVCA. We all have different talents and interests, and a good technical background does not necessarily imply good management skills. My collection at this point numbers conservatively in the many, many thousands of manuals, docs, etc. as well as close to a thousand computers, monitors, printers, and peripherals. Some of the stuff (Polymorphic software) is irreplacable. I am acutely aware of the need for management and organizational skills (which I do not have, and have no particular desire to acquire) needed to do something with the collection. I might add (and this is also *not* an insult) that your situation, and mine, is a result of our choices in life. Money is certainly not a driving force in my life, and people who have been to my house understand that :). > I see no correlation _at all_ between the amount of money a person > happens to have and their interest in computer restoration. Or their > knowledge of electronics/computing/engineering/etc. Or their ability to > keep a collection together and look after it. This thread started because Jeff was complaining about the rising prices of acquiring this stuff, and how this would lead to not being able to be a part of this hobby. My comment was basically that the people who had money to but this stuff had (for the most part) already demonstrated an ability to manage their resouces (money) wisely in a way to make them increase (or at least not decrease.) *Those* are the people able to organize a successful organization. One example here on the list is Sellam; he didn't just talk about a computer show but went ahead and started something. And Sellam has been one of the people on this list saying that the machines are still available for free or very little (at least in parts of the US.) Another thought re participation, the people without organizational skills generally end up working for someone that has them. Hence the participation can still be there, just not the control. I would disagree with your statement that there is no correlation between a persons resources and an ability to keep a collection together and look after it. It needs to be added that I am talking in the context of the original thread; that of an IVCA. Would you (or Jeff) really feel comfortable trying to manage such an organization? Everything I have seen from you to date indicates that you are extremely competent from a technical standpoint, and would most likely be bored to death with the details of running such an organization. However without skills such as yours, a collection would be nothing more than a stagnant display or pile of boxes. There is a place for anyone who wants to be a part. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jun 27 16:37:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:03 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627143456.00e6f780@208.226.86.10> At 05:00 PM 6/27/00 -0400, William wrote: >How will the formation of an official group make prices go up? Please >explain, as I don't see any connection. I'm presuming that the theory here is that when an "official" organization erupts they start to create visibility for the activity they are promoting (they almost have to to survive) and this gets more people interested and then the demand goes up so prices rise. --Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:38:18 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <20000627.161019.-287727.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > Nice, but individual ownership is a much more valuable experience > (to the individual). Not possible once these systems become > 'Museum Pieces'. Not true. Nearly every museum will welcome volunteers with open arms, and as long as the artifcats are not abused, they can be worked on and used. Just about anyone on this list is welcome at RCS/RI to play with any of our machines. Once we know people well enough, machines can be taken home on a loan basis. In this we are not some odd organization - many museums work exactly in this fashion. And the price is zero. > We have forums like this one. But I guess you'll *need* an > 'official' organization now: It's becomming apparent that only > certain opinions are now considered 'acceptable'. The official organizations don't publish opinions, but research. Check out the *Analytical Engines* from CHAC - real research that really has no place on a forum like this (too long and heavy, basically), but is really valuable. > Groups of caring individuals have always worked together towards > this end. In the past, the money wasn't a motivation. I don't > know if this will reman the case in the future. Here I am talking about big systems. Most people just don't have the resources to even go get them, but in a museum resources can be pooled. > I always figured that the real {hobbyists | enthusiasts} weren't > (by definition) 'professionals'. The original developers? Write > one a letter, thanking them for their contribution. I did. Many companies and organizations often look down on (or even ignore) amateur historians, no matter how profound the work. With even a silly thing like credentials that really are not worth much (really, what is "RCS/RI" worth?), many people's views can be changed. > Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked. Not just physical (theft) security, but the well being of the artifacts. A door won't stop a heart attack. > You know, I could get really angry at this last remark, but it just > makes me sad. (Retro)computing was a 'joy' thing. It was so > awesome because just about anyone could experience it. It was > really something special because it's only major cost was the time > and effort you put into it. Well, things really have not changed that much. You can still play with old computers - good old computers - for a song. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 27 16:42:48 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate References: Message-ID: <39591FD8.19729503@rain.org> "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > > An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai > Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes and > parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same with > collecting synthesizers. People will tack on "ARP Moog" to a description > of some no-name keyboard and expect the world to be impressed... It is not amazing that it happens, but it would be truly amazing if it did not. Knowledgeable Ebay (and other such auctions) put what they consider to be keywords in the description that will attract those people using the search engine. Just common sense. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:46:47 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627143456.00e6f780@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: > I'm presuming that the theory here is that when an "official" organization > erupts they start to create visibility for the activity they are promoting > (they almost have to to survive) and this gets more people interested and > then the demand goes up so prices rise. That seems to be the wrong way round. The people are getting interested, prices are rising, and a few people want to start an organization to perhaps regulate it. Such an organization could "preach" that many of these old computers are far more common that people realize, and perhaps so many won't be fooled. For example, page one of the official journal might have an article about how ALL old Macs have signatures inside them. Or even section of classified ads for FREE COMPUTERS. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 27 16:50:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 2000 12:53:38 PM Message-ID: <200006272150.OAA25322@shell1.aracnet.com> Sellam wrote: > All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so > since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I > would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the > machines). The Software and Manuals ARE the most important! Without those two items a system is nothing but a lifeless hunk of metal, silicon, and plastic. It took me almost a year after getting my first PDP-11 before I could actually do anything with it. Why? Because I needed manuals and software. This is probably why about the only thing I'm still collecting is Documentation. Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 16:50:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <39591FD8.19729503@rain.org> Message-ID: > It is not amazing that it happens, but it would be truly amazing if it did > not. Knowledgeable Ebay (and other such auctions) put what they consider to > be keywords in the description that will attract those people using the > search engine. Just common sense. Yes, simply because very few people actually browse categories anymore because of the huge increase of new items. Searches are just about essential. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 27 15:49:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? Message-ID: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 11:55 AM Subject: $700 TRS-80??? >Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion >box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for >$700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. Stupidity. >There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in >the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and >no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? buy the cheap one. ;) Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 27 16:55:04 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo References: Message-ID: <395922B8.EC9504CF@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were > ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in. For some value of "ruined". I somehow doubt that the people who were dumping money in perceived it as a ruining proposition. > And I don't want classic computing to go the same way. I doubt anyone wants the hobby "ruined", but if the influx of money is synonymous with "ruined" then it's utterly unclear that there's anything that you can do or say to affect the situation. > > go it. The only way to really appreciate what we do here (well, > > what *I* do anyway) is to get your "hands dirty" with this stuff. > > Yep!. At least for me there's no interest at all in having a shelf of > perfectly working old computers and paying a person to look after them > and run them for me. I want to get inside the machines myself. I want to > stare at 'scope screens and assembly listings. I want to fix the darn > thing and enjoy the experience of it working again for the first time in > perhaps 10 years or more. I could read this statement as an incredibly arrogant one. The implication is that if one has money to pour into a hobby that they are unwilling or unable to pick the machines apart or derive pleasure from the same activities that you do. I unfamiliar with any evidence to support such a supposition, nor the implication that the poor hacker is inherently more capable. > > > > Maybe you can pay someone to do the work for you, but you're > > kidding yourself. > > Only one slight problem. If you price the true enthusiasts out of the > hobby then who are you going to get to fix the machines. You seem to believe that the two communities are mutually exclusive. They're not. > The person who wasn't rich enough to afford a service contract is the > person who learnt to fix the machine himself. And who can fix similar > machines now if only he works on them for a few months. > > The person who couldn't afford the ready-written commercial software is > the person who wrote his own. And who can still program in the languages > used by classic computers. Ah, maybe I'm getting it. The premise is that people with money have always had money and thus would never have learned these skills? This doesn't seem to admit the possibility of people having acquired their money because they *have* these very skills. YMMV, and I have a sense that perhaps it did. [snip] > > Oh, okay, so you're saying that if we can't pay the increasing > > cost of admission, we're deadbeats, is that it?!?! Try to tell > > Seems like it :-( > > > that to the retired folks who have fixed incomes. Try to tell > > Try telling it to the unemployed hardware hacker who's figured out how to > fix things that the manufacturer claimed could only be repaired at their > factory with special equipment. If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said hacker is unemployed save by choice. > > that to schoolkids who now equate computer=Wintel, and don't > > 14 years ago I realised that unless something was done than all sorts of > computers, many quite common, and operating practices, were going to be > lost for ever. I met programmers who had no idea how data could be stored > as holes in a strip of paper. Electronic designers who thought there was > something magic about how a CPU worked and that it was more than just a > collection of gates and flip-flops. The more things change the more they stay the same. Contemporary synthesis tools are useless for speeds much above 300MHz, so we're back to building custom blocks out of transistors with precharge. Does every designer understand this stuff? No. Does every designer need to? No. Does everyone need to know about paper tape, punch cards and chipstore? No. Will this knowledge vanish if all us hobby types fell off the planet? No, unless we've started burning books again and I didn't get the memo. > And you're trying to tell me that because I'm not rich I did the wrong > thing? Get real! That was hardly what Marvin was saying. More people have discovered this hobby, which increases demand. Increased demand increase prices *in markets where cash is exchanged*. There's more than one way to make a market in this stuff, and there are still ample opportunities to haul off stuff for free. Personally, I'm thrilled that I can haul off the stuff that I care about for a tiny fraction of what it would have cost me just ten years ago. I'm stuck with the unpleasant feeling that some people are bitching because they've discovered that their private hobby isn't private, that other people have more cash than they do, and that as a consequence they can no longer pick stuff up for fire sale prices the way that they used to. That's tough, but it's nothing more than basic economics. As for ePay -- all it really does is make the market more efficient. If somebody wants to pay $700 for a TRS80 that's his choice -- but if a small army of people want to pay that much then there's not much to do but accept that as a reasonable price for same. Whining about it won't make it go away. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 27 17:04:24 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby Message-ID: <20000627220424.20205.qmail@hotmail.com> Well I can't be silent on this one... I'm broke as all hell, but I don't care.. I should probably be in college right now but I'd rather spend 3K to get a bunch of Interdata's and Perkin-Elmers... my other car is taken apart and I ought to spend money on fixing it but I don't.. Sure, maybe these aren't "good" choices, but whats important is that they ARE choices, I CHOSE to spend my money in such a way, and I live with it. But I work, I pay my bills, and hey, I could easily go to college if I'd get off my ass and work at it.. If you want to just to sit around and bitch about how poor you are, go for it, you won't get my sympathy. I know its entirely in my own power to determine how much money I have/make, so I don't complain.. If you're complaining, you probably don't understand that.. Besides, you could have loads of money if you spent the time you spend bitching working instead... Just my 2K worth... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 27 23:01:33 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Sellam On 27-Jun-00, you wrote: > Other ideas: > > * create an archive of software...you can find disks for all types of > computers at thrift stores and flea markets; generally a buck or less a > piece; a software archive is a very important element in this hobby, > since not many people seem to be archiving software on a large scale > > * create a classic computer book library...you can find them in hoards at > thrift stores, library book sales, and of course used book stores > (although used book store prices tend to be a little high usually); such > a library will be an indespensible resource for your local computer > collector community; don't forget computer manuals and software manuals > as well > > * create an ephemera archive: t-shirts, buttons, posters, etc; this would > basically be a material culture archive, which may bring you big bucks > later on when a researcher or someone writing a book wants to borrow > your collection to get some photos > > All of these things can still be found cheaply and will probably remain so > since they are not as glamourous as the machines themselves (although I > would argue that software and manuals are MORE important than the > machines). > >> You can complain about how your feet are tired and >> your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. > > I like that :) > > Sellam I second that motion. I have a raft of books on my VIC-20 and c64 worth their weight in gold, but do you think I could get anything at a garage sale for them . . . hardly. Maybe ebay (laughter heard in the background). I think therein lies an idea worh pursuing. Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 16:09:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 0 12:14:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/260e42ff/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 16:28:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 0 12:41:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/2d248b66/attachment-0001.ksh From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 18:12:59 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I am mildly fed up with this idea that 'amateur' means 'second grade' or > 'poor quality' or... It doesn't. Period. To say that it does is > essentially claiming that money==quality, something that I will never > agree with. Remember, Amateurs built the Ark! Professionals built the Titanic... From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 27 18:13:53 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? In-Reply-To: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:49:33PM -0400 References: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000627181353.G3512@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:49:33PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > Stupidity. > >There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in > >the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and > >no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? > buy the cheap one. ;) > Allison Anybody else see the MicroVAX II with VMS 4.x and a set of orange-wall manuals a guy (lance@swcp.com) is trying to sell for $1400? 1/10th of that would be more reasonable, I would think... Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 17:25:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 27, 0 12:53:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1654 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/6154df68/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 17:44:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 27, 0 05:00:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/f408c9db/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 18:16:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <200006272150.OAA25322@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 27, 0 02:50:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1596 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/1a53922a/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 17:57:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: <39591E13.91D73040@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 27, 0 02:35:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/e2886756/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 18:30:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: <395922B8.EC9504CF@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Jun 27, 0 02:55:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/9e67aaa4/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 27 18:07:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 27, 0 05:38:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2042 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/2395edac/attachment-0001.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 18:42:44 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAF@TEGNTSERVER> > > Try telling it to the unemployed hardware hacker who's figured out how to > > fix things that the manufacturer claimed could only be repaired at their > > factory with special equipment. > > If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker > can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said > hacker is unemployed save by choice. With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the balance of one's employment skills and personality. For example, it's far more important to my employer that I wear a crisp shirt and tie each day than that I know trend or technology (unless I hadn't said so before, I'm a programmer working as a system administrator; long story behind why). YMMV, etc. -doug q From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Jun 27 18:46:21 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: IMHO, it's arrogant to think that ANY old computers (other than a few very rare exceptions) are all that "valuable". If all the TRS-80s, ALTAIRS, SWTPs, all the documentation, and software, etc... were to disappear tomorrow, life as we know it would not change. The reason that I collect is that I enjoy tinkering with and restoring old machines. It has nothing to do with monitary gain, historical preservation, mentoring children about the "old ways", or saving the world from the loss of some irreplacable techno-saur. With the exception of "monitary gain" all the other reasons above are BS! Frankly I do have enough money to buy almost any computer I want and I do buy from E-Bay. I also buy from garage sales, flee markets, thrift stores, and other collectors. I have driven as much as 800 miles to pick up a system that I particularily wanted but, I have NEVER paid too much. I've always paid EXACTLY what I was willing to pay. The good thing about forums like Ebay is that they give you the opportunity to set the price that you are wiling to pay. If someone else is willing to pay more, so be it. Sure I've been disapppointed because I didn't get a system that I was bidding on but, so what. By the same token, I found a system that is the only surviving member of it's species for $50. Is it irreplacable? Sure it's irreplacable because there aren't any more. Would it really matter if I tossed it in the trash? Maybe to a few people on this list but other than that... not really. Before anyone goes on another rant about throwing a machine in the trash, let's take a poll: Assuming I was to offer it for free, who on this list (other than captain napalm who's only 10 miles away) would drive to South Florida to pick it up? Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000627/1ead84c2/attachment-0001.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 27 18:56:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB2@TEGNTSERVER> > Not true. Nearly every museum will welcome volunteers with open arms, and > as long as the artifcats are not abused, they can be worked on and used. > Just about anyone on this list is welcome at RCS/RI to play with any of > our machines. Once we know people well enough, machines can be taken home > on a loan basis. In this we are not some odd organization - many museums > work exactly in this fashion. And the price is zero. Bill- While it really helps to have "live" organizational skills, I think a group of organizationally-challenged folk could do wonders if they had a roadmap to follow, and from the sounds of it, you & Merle & Co. have put together something special. Have you considered writing up either your experiences in putting the RCS/RI together, or even better, something closer to a step-by-step guide to finding the interested local parties and what to look for in terms of facilities (lots of space & separately derived 3-phase power systems are obvious; other things are less so). It may never happen here in the Louisville area (whatever critical mass of interest is required may or may not be present), but I'd like to try getting it started. We have a Museum of Science and Technology, but it's all mass-public stuff, IMAX Theatre, etc. -doug q From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 27 17:51:17 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEA9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: This is such a crock, if you want a cheap computer do the same thing you did before eBay, turn over a LOT of rocks. Just about everybody on this lists that is actively looking, ie making phone calls, driving places, etc., is still finding a LOT of computers. From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 27 19:10:46 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Preserve those old machines (was: Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked. > > Not just physical (theft) security, but the well being of the artifacts. > A door won't stop a heart attack. I know we've discussed wills and such in the past week or so, but this reminds me of something else: The shortwave and ham radio enthusiasts have what is called a "Committee to Preserve Radio Verifications". This group has stickers to put on QSL-card albums so that the collection is not discarded, but is (hopefully) sent to the Committee for preservation (at the Library of American Broadcasting at the University of Maryland) http://www181.pair.com/otsw/cprv2.html http://www.lib.umd.edu/UMCP/LAB/QSL.html Perhaps something similar could be done with our old machines and documentation? From foxnhare at jps.net Tue Jun 27 19:35:24 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo References: <200006272343.SAA32013@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <39594844.CF65F843@jps.net> Obviously you are looking in the wrong places if the price of equipment is too high for you nor are you looking at the "big picture"... Sure, I use eBay, but only for stuff that's cheap, if it is too expensive I look for things other people don't know about or haven't thought of collecting yet. (My BASIC games book collection is doing nicely, thank you.) If I can't get stuff on eBay cheap, then I scour the thrift stores, yard sales, newsgroups, shows like VCF, etc. If computer X is too expensive, I wait, heck, in 5 years I'll probably get one, I'm in no rush... (thats how I got most of my computers cheap, either buy it new in stores or wait a few years till it's lifespan brings it to Salvation Army...) Also if you have the webspace available - do justice to your favorite collection and help others, this is not only a status symbol for the collector but also let's visitors know that if they clean out their closet of classic stuff/info, there is a place they can send it to who will appreciate it and use it to assist others. (yes, I have received a few contributions and am very appreciative.) But of course if you fall into the "beanie babie" - collect for investment croud, that advice is a moot point. There are alot of aspects to a computer collection, not just the machines; there is the software, cables, controllers, peripherals, manuals, books, magazines, ads, stickers, buttons, etc... (in fact some of the software, manuals books and magazines are probably more rewarding to find than some of the computers...) > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:34:33 -0700 > From: Chuck McManis > Subject: Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer > Association? Was: Yo > > At 07:46 PM 6/27/00 +0100, Tony wrote: > >I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were > >ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in. > > Sounds a bit like the joke, "What that place? Nobody goes there > anymore, > its too crowded!" > > - --Chuck -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 27 19:46:09 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: References: Message-ID: <39594AD1.B09F88A3@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I could read this statement as an incredibly arrogant one. The implication > > That was not my intention. Fair enough :-) [snip] > This may vary in different countries, but certainly in the UK, > engineers/physicists/mathematical programmers/electronics designers, etc > are not, in general, well paid. There are exceptions, of course, but I > would think that people who were the most clueful at repairing old > computers would often have a lower salary than some other groups of > people. You're absolutly right; I forgot that my corner of the world isn't the *only* corner of the world, and I'll be the first to admit that in my little corner salaries are utterly whacked in comparison with skill sets -- but not universally so. In my case I've on collecting those machines that I worked with growing up (although the PR1MEs are an exception to that rule). As a consequence of the things that I learned working with those machines I have a comparatively successful career which allows me the luxury of throwing money at my hobby -- although that usual translates as paying somebody a chunk of change to haul something hundreds or thousands of miles as opposed to actually purchasing the stuff. [snip] > Well, certainly over here, being good at electronics/engineering/etc is > _not_ a way to get a well-paid job :-( As I said, head space on my part. Over here being *good* isn't even a requirement -- all you need is the ability to spell "engineer". > > If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker > > One of the first things I learnt when I started collecting was to never > believe the 'trained engineers only' warnings, and certainly not to > believe something couldn't be repaired just because the manual said it > couldn't ;-) That was kinda my point, but my argument was flawed from a societal standpoint. Someone with the mental horsepower not to be put off by such silly warnings would generally have all sorts of options open to them in the Valley. > > can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said > > hacker is unemployed save by choice. > > You are implying that there are jobs for people who can fix 1960's > calculators with homemade special tools? Or who can make parts for 8" > disk drives themselves? Yes, but not repairing 60's calculators or fabricating parts for 8" drives. My point is that someone who can perform the level of analysis and engineering required to do these things is a *real* engineer, as opposed to the people who are because they've got a piece of paper that says so. > Where??? At any given time there's usually between 17K and 22K unfilled engineering positions in the valley. Even factoring out all the support and grunt positions my guess is that there are more than just a few staff engineering (or above) positions that could benefit from the skills we're talking about here. [snip] > Nobody is saying that _everyone_ has to understand this. Just that some > people should be aware that it once existed, and could possibly be useful > again. No argument there. Far too many things get re-invented because people have no knowlege of prior art -- but it could be argued that we're describing the need for senior staff positions (which are *very* hard to find -- everyone wants you to be a VP instead) and better education. The latter in particular; maybe it's just me, but it seems like most newly minted master's I see these days are barely qualified to operate the coffee maker. [snip] > > Will this knowledge vanish if all us hobby types fell off the planet? No, > > unless we've started burning books again and I didn't get the memo. > > A lot of things are _not_ documented in books. There is a big difference > (IMHO) between the idealised CPUs that you find in text books and actual, > real world ones. And those differences are the interesting part IMHO. > Anyone can design a CPU, but can you define an 'efficient' one (where > efficiency can mean a lot of different things). I certainly agree with the latter -- the ability to do effective design isn't found in a book, but rather in experience. Nothing scares me more than walking into a CPU lab and finding a copy of one of Patterson's books on every engineer's desk as if it were a bible. Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 27 19:48:47 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?Was: Yo References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <39594B6F.17CF4310@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary > from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment > has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the > balance of one's employment skills and personality. That's a fair observation, and one that I conceded to Tony as well. I was thinking in terms of *my* situation, where too much attention to appearance and too little on productive work cause Chris to not bother to show up for work because I'll trip over several other interesting things to do as I'm carrying my stuff to the car. It was silly of me. Sorry about that. Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 27 20:04:27 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: <015901bfe071$153b5740$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: > > The problem with using DRIVPARM appears to be an incompatibility with the > > IBM BIOS, NOT an issue of which version of the OS! On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Sipke de Wal wrote: > I'm not shure but couldn't this be circumvented with "driver.sys" > It will take a few bytes of memory more than DRIVPARM but > it should work on any IBM-compatibe system including the ones from > big blue itself . Yes, DRIVER.SYS will work. But it loads an entirely unnecessary device driver into the scarce 640K real estate. It also puts the drive at a different letter. While most people will not run out of drive letters, some demented software (including certain MICROS~1 OS installs) refuses to accept any but A: and B: for the floppy letters! By running a BIOS other than IBM's, it is possible to use DRIVPARM to merely set the drive parameters to their correct values. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From passerm at umkc.edu Tue Jun 27 19:53:28 2000 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? Message-ID: <001f01bfe09b$572bbc60$0200a8c0@swbell.net> Does anyone out there have a boot disk, software and/or documentation for the Wang Professional Computer? I liberated one of these from a local thrift store for the grand sum of $2.97 (keyboard, monitor, and computer/drives all individually priced @ 99c). It appears to be in working order--startup diagnostics and the keyboard work fine. The monochrome display is one of the nicest ones I've seen. An interesting note is that the startup ROM contains an option to boot the machine from the serial port! Thanks for anything anyone might be able to spare-- I am, of course, willing to pay shipping plus a reasonable amount for the time involved, particularly if someone copies me a boot disk. Mike Passer passerm@umkc.edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 27 20:12:49 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: <39591445.89170BC8@rain.org> Message-ID: I remember when NOBODY wanted Edsels. I remember when NOBODY wanted VWs from the 50's, PARTICULARLY those ones with the split rear window, semaphore turn signals, hand crank, etc. There are still some analogous niches. Nobody seems to be collecting monitors. printers? Too bulky? Nobody seems to be collecting modems. Who wants some PCJrs? Morrow MD2? Amiga 1000? [local pickup only. Sorry, for the price, I'm not willing to ship.] -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Jun 27 20:15:11 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? References: <003801bfe07a$ddf3d640$7264c0d0@ajp166> <20000627181353.G3512@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3959519F.7D36D4F@arrl.net> Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody else see the MicroVAX II with VMS 4.x and a set of > orange-wall manuals a guy (lance@swcp.com) is trying to > sell for $1400? > > 1/10th of that would be more reasonable, I would think... Even that is too high, there are many available for the taking, though not necessarily with all the extras you described. You just need to keep yours eyes open. Example ... I've got a MVII in a BA-123 (diskless) free to anyone in the Houston area. I just need to dig it out from the pile of shipping cartons piled on / around it. First request gets it. Someone commented on being suspicious of an eBay seller for changing his ID. Not always a cause for concern. I'll be changing mine after completion of some pending buys, simply because ...... I'm tired of my old *handle*......... Nick From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 27 20:16:58 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The original TRS-80 Level 1, 4K, with monitor and cassette was $599. The level 2 WAS $700, wasn't it? I sold off the ones that I had for less than that, but they had numerous after-market mods. Hmmm. If you can successfully sell MOdel 1s for $700, that could finance a serious collection From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 27 22:05:34 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > The reason that I collect is that I enjoy tinkering with and restoring old > machines. It has nothing to do with monitary gain, historical preservation, > mentoring children about the "old ways", or saving the world from the loss > of some irreplacable techno-saur. With the exception of "monitary gain" all > the other reasons above are BS! Same here. Granted, I'd like to see this equipment preserved in the long term, but, tinkering and restoring the systems, and making modifications as needed to make them more useful, are why I "collect" computers. If, in order to make a computer work again, if I have to modify something, use different parts, etc. I will, as my goal is a working system, not a museum piece. > Frankly I do have enough money to buy almost any computer I want and I do > buy from E-Bay. I also buy from garage sales, flee markets, thrift stores, Same here. Getting a cheap or free toy to play with is all part of the fun, even though more expensive ones are affordable. If all systems became expensive, I'd stop collecting, simply because it would no longer be fun, and I wouldn't want to patronize price-gougers. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 27 22:12:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > But you're forgetting one important fact. We (or at least I) collect and > restore classic computers because we _enjoy_ them. I have no interest > whatsoever in collecting t-shirts, posters, etc. You can't clip a logic > analyser onto a poster. I agree; I'm not interetsted in marketing rubbish pertaining to computers; such things do not contribute to my enjoyment of classic computers. > As I've said many times before, I am interested in computers _because > they're electronic circuits_. They're something to attack with logic > analysers and 'scopes. Not something to sit of the shelf. Not something > to 'preserve'. Something to investigate. Well said! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 27 23:05:55 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000628000555.00961c30@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: [snip] >You can't clip a logic analyser onto a poster. Sure you can! However, I can pretty much guarantee you'll end up with a "logic 0" every time... ;-) >And while I collect books (boy, do I collect books), I have little >interest in yet another 'learn Commodore 64 BASIC' (or similar) book. >Technical manuals, sure -- I buy just about any that I come across. >Databooks, ditto. But not 3rd party user manuals. On that we certainly agree. >And when you've seen the insides of one 286 PC/AT clone you've pretty >much seen them all. Hear, Hear! I *refuse* to collect IBM PC's of any type (well, *damn near* any type -- I might take in a Tandy 2000, but that would be about it.) Despite Micros~1's protestations, Win9x/ME==DOS==boring. In my town, there's prolly 20 or fewer folks that could even figure out how to boot VMS on my DEC, let alone log in... (installation did require some help from you folks - and I thank you again for that). Most folks that are PeeCee based are like "Howcomewhyfor nuthin' happens when I press F1?" It doesn't occur to most folks nowadays to try something new/different (read: the HELP command). Now to get DECWindows up... so I can see the documentation on how to get DECWindows up... I guess I'm feeling recursive tonite. ;-) Honestly, I have no desire for an altair/imsai/apple 1, so as long as those are "fashionable" and little else, I won't shed a tear over it. If, however, the state of affordable collecting is reduced to '286's, I'll just keep my 30 or so machines to myself and become a "compu-hermit." I'll want no part of it anymore. Re: the "amateur vs. professional" debate: To most folks nowadays, the term "professional" means "you have a degree from a well-heeled university" to prove you actually know what you're doing (which in my eyes isn't proof at all...). No Ph.D. == amateur. There is *no* degree in Classic Computing History, so by this definition we're *all* amateurs... Just my $0.00000002 (and that's what it's worth...) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 23:09:09 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I must disagree with both of you... Museums provide one function -- that > of conserving machines and ensuring that they will still be around in the > future. No, museums do more. They preserve the hardware (and software and docs and all of the related physical stuff), as we all know, but they also preserve the culture. In fact, in many cases, museums are more interested in the culture behind an artifact than the artifact itself. For example, tribal masks are interesting artifacts, made of exotic woods, and they can tell all sorts of things about the artists and tools at the time it was made - but the real value is the knowledge of how the masks were used, who used them, why and when they were used, and so forth. In fact archaeology is almost _all_ culture study - artifacts are just clues. > Hobbyists provide a different function (IMHO) -- they carry on > using the machines, ensuring that the operational knowledge is preserved > a little longer. They may also pull them apart, modify them and restore > them, and in so doing recreate some of the design information for the > machine. This is something the museums are starting to do, now that they are starting to take the things seriously. For example, on one of the submarine museums, a project is afoot to restore the stable element back to operation. The main point of the project is not to show a working Arma gyro system, but to preserve the methods (some would say magic) involved with balancing the beasts from the few old men that can still do it. The artifact will likely last for thousands of years if treated well, but those old codgers are will be lucky to last another twenty. > All museums that I have ever been in contact with would certainly -- and > with good reason -- refuse to let me do the sort of things to their > artefacts that I routinely do to my own machines. Like adding chips, > sticking wire-wrapped (and reversable) modifications on the backs of > boards. Like taking them _totally_ to bits and desoldering chips, etc. Am > I ruining classic computers? Perhaps. But if I didn't do things like that > then I'd not be able to share repair methods, etc, with other collectors > and enthusiasts -- and yes, museums. Well, yes, the museums would kick you out in a jiffy. The whole idea of an artifact is to "freeze" it at some point in time, and keep it there. It is far from a perfect world, and all sorts of things want to change the artifact, destroying the "historical fabric" (official term). Museums want to keep this fabric as intact as possible, but also may want to restore the artifacts. It is a fine line - the well being of the artifact vs. the value to the public. That is one of the reasons museum tend to be very slow and careful. Even little changes rip the fabric, and it _can_not_ be repaired. Museums and scholars learned the hard way how to treat artifacts. Much has been lost because of little (or sometimes big, in the case with Egyptology) changes have built up into big changes, and documentation can only go so far. Even mods that are reversable really are not. Changes can be tiny, but they add up. Now I don't think for even a second that I am going to change everyone into "restoration cops", but it is something people should consider. Some of us have very unique machines, some with a great deal of history behind them, but it could all be lost forever. > Both functions are highly valuable. I refuse to say which is more > valuable (that depends on who you are and what you're interested in). But > there's certainly a place for both groups in the world. As I said, there is simply no way everyone will start acting like a curator. In fact, I may very well get flamed for even suggesting such a thing. Private collections will always exist, and a great deal of knowledge will be kept private. The key is to get the museums and private collectors to exist peacefully and exchange the knowledge (actually easier than it sounds - this list being a good example). > My experience is that museums are great if you want to see what the > museum thinks that the average member of the public would (a) want to see > and (b) would understand. But if you want to go way beyond that then > you're not going to get very far. Maybe the UK is different (I though the British were the kings of museums?), but most US museums are quite happy to let the public research the holdings. There may be a little bit of processing (paperwork and so forth) to go thru, to make sure you are not a Bozo ready to walk away with some artifacts, but it can be done. Credentials help a great deal - thus the idea of an "official" retrocomputing organization has a great deal of merit. > Hmmm... Some of us do ensure that anything we discover about our machines > is at least 'backed up' to one other collector, if not made public on a > list like that one. And the things we discover are _not_ the sort of > thing you're going to find out just by looking at a machine. Who says that museums are just for looking anyway? The point of collecting the artifacts is so they can be studied in detail. > While most of us have machines that we don't mention publically, you can > bet that if you start asking questions about them you'll get answers > which at least imply they've _seen_ the machine in quite close detail. That is great, and I thank everyone that does participate, but no doubt there are many that don't. Just recently I was thru a round of semi-academic talk on another list about the RDF (radio direction finding) set Amelia Earhart used, and why she managed to get lost. Well, a friend and I had some documentation about the Bendix system used, so we shared it. Another guy I know actually _has_ one of these radios (a very rare variant - the only one I know of), but he said nothing - added nothing to the discussion. For our purposes, the radio in his collection might as well have been a potted plant. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 27 23:10:39 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Temporary Departure Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000627211039.0099e800@pop.sttl.uswest.net> I'll be off-list for a while due to an upcoming vacation. Back soon! 73 de WD6EOS -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 27 23:17:08 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > Have you considered writing up either your experiences in > putting the RCS/RI together, or even better, something > closer to a step-by-step guide to finding the interested > local parties and what to look for in terms of facilities > (lots of space & separately derived 3-phase power systems > are obvious; other things are less so). Yes, that is an excellent idea. There are a great deal of details that need to be dealt with that are not part of private collecting. I will bring it up at the next open house. It could make a good joint RCS/RICM project. I should point out that the "main man" at RCS/RI is actually Mike Umbricht, not myself. He is really resposible for most of what has transpired. That's why he is the president. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 27 23:17:43 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby, was Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:12:49PM -0700 References: <39591445.89170BC8@rain.org> Message-ID: <20000627231743.T3512@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:12:49PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > There are still some analogous niches. Nobody seems to be collecting > monitors. printers? Too bulky? Nobody seems to be collecting modems. > Who wants some PCJrs? > Morrow MD2? > Amiga 1000? > [local pickup only. Sorry, for the price, I'm not willing to ship.] I've got an A1000 with keyboard (no mouse, sorry) in Austin, Texas free for the pickup, along with three 19" rackmount drive trays (complete with slide rails) from a 4/690MP; along with the trays go six 2.1gig Seagate 5.25" FH differential SCSI HDs (and all cables) and six 1.2gig 5.25" FH IPI drives. I've also got six 1200 watt power supplies for a 4/6[7,9]0MP. If anybody in the area wants any of this, let me know. I need to clean out the garage for the arrival of more DEC stuff in a couple of weeks. Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 27 23:53:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? In-Reply-To: <001f01bfe09b$572bbc60$0200a8c0@swbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Michael Passer wrote: > Does anyone out there have a boot disk, software > and/or documentation for the Wang Professional > Computer? Yep, but you probably want more than just one disk. The system comes as a three disk set, there is one for IBM emulation if you have that card, a printer installation disk, etc. Write me off list, and we'll see what can be done. - don > I liberated one of these from a local thrift store > for the grand sum of $2.97 (keyboard, monitor, > and computer/drives all individually priced @ 99c). > It appears to be in working order--startup > diagnostics and the keyboard work fine. The > monochrome display is one of the nicest ones > I've seen. > > An interesting note is that the startup ROM contains > an option to boot the machine from the serial port! > > Thanks for anything anyone might be able to spare-- > I am, of course, willing to pay shipping plus a > reasonable amount for the time involved, particularly > if someone copies me a boot disk. > > Mike Passer > passerm@umkc.edu > > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:40:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said > > hacker is unemployed save by choice. > > You are implying that there are jobs for people who can fix 1960's > calculators with homemade special tools? Or who can make parts for 8" > disk drives themselves? Where??? Tony, I've got to get this off my chest. I've seen you time and time again whine about not being able to get a job with your skills. In the past I've talked to you privately about how easy it would be for someone with your incredible skill and knowledge to get a very well-paying job just about any damn place he chooses, but you come up with all sorts of reasons why you can't. The only conclusion I can come to is that you don't want a job. The blind, deaf or crippled would kill for your skills. What's your excuse? If you're looking for sympathy from anyone here, you're not going to get it. Write a resume, make some copies, send it out and stop complaining. The recognition you want and deserve is out in the world, not here on this list while you sit cramped up behind a computer screen. Stop being selfish and contribute your talents to society (other than what you contribute so graciously to this list). Sorry to air this publicly, but I think what you need is a good kick in the ass. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:42:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > But you're forgetting one important fact. We (or at least I) collect and > restore classic computers because we _enjoy_ them. I have no interest > whatsoever in collecting t-shirts, posters, etc. You can't clip a logic > analyser onto a poster. Sure, but someone else might. The idea is to propose alternative focii of collecting that are equally important to the greater good in this hobby we all share. > Which is why none of the above suggestions has any interest at all _for me_. Fine, leave all the extraneous books, posters, pins and t-shirts to someone else ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:46:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary > from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment > has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the > balance of one's employment skills and personality. For example, > it's far more important to my employer that I wear a crisp shirt > and tie each day than that I know trend or technology > (unless I hadn't said so before, I'm a programmer working as a > system administrator; long story behind why). YMMV, etc. Well, someone was talking about choices earlier, and that's what we're dealing with here. You can choose to be socially retarded and not be able to maintain a job, or you can choose to start your own business and not have to worry about answering to a boss, or you can choose to stay at home and complain on an internet mailing list about how you can't afford your own hobby. Anyway, this is off-topic. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:49:25 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > The reason that I collect is that I enjoy tinkering with and restoring old > machines. It has nothing to do with monitary gain, historical preservation, > mentoring children about the "old ways", or saving the world from the loss > of some irreplacable techno-saur. With the exception of "monitary gain" all > the other reasons above are BS! Says you. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 00:55:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai > Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes > and parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same > with Well, the prices staying low must be a new thing. There's a reason they put "Altair IMSAI" on their ads, that being that lots of people would fall for it for lack of an understanding of recent computer history (i.e. suckers). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From passerm at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 05:59:00 2000 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? References: Message-ID: <008601bfe0ef$dd8bde80$0200a8c0@swbell.net> Great! The machine does have a mono IBM emulation card, along with a 128K board and a graphics board (PM002-B). It's a floppy based system Please let me know what I can give you for a set of disks and where to send it. Thank you for answering my call for help! --Mike From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Jun 28 06:37:43 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:04 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Heck, I couldn't even afford to get to VCF-Europe, let alone the States. > > But if there's ever a VCF-UK, I'll be there. Somehow. I'll even volunteer > > to bring some machines and give a talk. Count me in, too. I'm sure I could put together a few machines for a display, and talk on some appropriate topic. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 07:32:06 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735122@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I apologize--that reply was meant to go off list. I will remember not to reply to messages before having had coffee in the future! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 05:57:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo Message-ID: <011101bfe0f9$43948a70$7264c0d0@ajp166> several messages: >> If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker >> can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said >> hacker is unemployed save by choice. > >With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary >from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment >has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the >balance of one's employment skills and personality. For example, I'd agree, I looked for two years in the other H-1B capital eastern MA, and no one was interested in me. I saw who they were hiring, and they were young, male and going cheap. Emplyment right now is a game, everyone is looking for a few and the wnat list if bizzare. The best example, a local comms firm wanted techs (not engineers) that had a minimum of BS in Math and 2 years DSP experience! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 05:48:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground Message-ID: <011001bfe0f9$42d58030$7264c0d0@ajp166> From: Mike Ford >This is such a crock, if you want a cheap computer do the same thing you >did before eBay, turn over a LOT of rocks. Just about everybody on this >lists that is actively looking, ie making phone calls, driving places, >etc., is still finding a LOT of computers. Amen! In the last year for free and not actively sought... Coleco Adam from the trash Zenith Xt laptop "here you want it, or the trash" Hyndai 286LT laptop in the trash, works! 486dx/66 system even 4x cdrom complete, if I didn't take it guess what... the trash. and other odds and ends. Granted the PC stuff is mostly for giving away as I don't need it all. There is stuff to be found the trick is to catch it before it's landfill in many cases. Maybe it's me but far to much good hardware is going landfill. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 06:05:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <011201bfe0f9$443b2ab0$7264c0d0@ajp166> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >The original TRS-80 Level 1, 4K, with monitor and cassette was $599. The >level 2 WAS $700, wasn't it? Initially then it was dropped in price. I thik the 4k/L1 went down to $399 and the 16k/LII was $599 later on. Either way there were some 300-400 thousand of them sold! In the first year of sales the total sold was 250,000! Rare, hardly. What would be rare is a completely stock system with a real working early model expansion interface!!! Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 28 08:58:03 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> This might be a topic better posted in the alt.folklore.computers USENET group, but let me try here first. This is from memory, and it's not as reliable as I'd like it to be. IIRC, OS/2 was not Microsoft's first attempt to create a multitasking operating system. They were working on, and I believe mostly finished, a DOS 4.0 that was multitasking. This was not the PC-DOS 4.0 for IBM, nor was it the MS-DOS 4.0 that we finally saw here in the states. This multitasking DOS 4.0 (from Microsoft, not a third party) was supplied with a computer that was old only in either the UK or more widely in Europe. It seems that the first letter of the computer manufacturer was an 'A', so the machine could have been an Apricot, an Amstrad, an Acorn, or lord knows. I read about this machine either in Byte during the late 80s or in a BIX conference (I MISS BIX!). I've searched the web for references to this multitasking MS-DOS 4, and have found nothing. Does anyone else remember this? Was the Byte article reviewing a sample of a product that never shipped? Did anyone get their hands on one? Does anyone have it? -doug q From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Jun 28 09:12:33 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:58:03 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > This multitasking DOS 4.0 (from Microsoft, not a third party) > was supplied with a computer that was old only in either the > UK or more widely in Europe. It seems that the first letter > of the computer manufacturer was an 'A', so the machine could > have been an Apricot, an Amstrad, an Acorn, or lord knows. I remember this! Only vaguely, though. It was indeed a multi-tasking version of MS-DOS, supplied by Microsoft to a UK computer company. I doubt that Amstrad or Acorn would have done something like this, so Apricot is the most likely 'A'. However, I get a (vague) notion that it may have been an ICL product. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 09:24:05 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: $700 TRS-80??? References: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773511C@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: <20000628141905.991.qmail@hotmail.com> The most aggregious overcharge I'd seen on ebay was someone selling a Mac SE (I think, could have been a 512k or Plus) for $300 because it had the signatures on the back of the inside of the case. True, the later SE's didn't, but I picked up three that do for $1 each from a thrift store, and there are LOTS more where those came from. The worst part was three people actually bid on it. Hey, anybody wanna buy a mac? ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Passer, Michael" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: RE: $700 TRS-80??? > The highest unsuccessful bid was also for $700 by > someone with a feedback rating of 232. He didn't > succeed because the winner had placed his $700 bid > the day before. > > There were four bids for >$600, and one for $250. > > (from http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=359971659) > > I do think it was the well-written description and > all the pictures that pushed the price up into the > stratosphere. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dwight Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 12:40 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: $700 TRS-80??? > > > "Passer, Michael" wrote: > > I saw that one too--it had to be the description! > > > > > Hi > Did anyone ask the bidders why they went so high? > There may be a valid reason. Looking at the other bidders > history, the next higher bidder was a regular buyer. > The winning bid was by someone that has made no other > purchases. He could have been a fake and wanted to see > how high things would go. I would be quite interested > to see how the sale goes through. The buyer has also > resently changed his handle. Makes one wonder? > Dwight > From at258 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 09:36:27 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? In-Reply-To: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735122@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> Message-ID: If Don can't get the Wang PC disks for you, I can look around and try to find something. I believe iut runs dos 2.01. On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Passer, Michael wrote: > I apologize--that reply was meant to go off list. I > will remember not to reply to messages before having > had coffee in the future! > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jun 28 09:49:22 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: MicroPDP11/73 chassis in Kansas City Message-ID: I still have a floor mount style MicroPDP11/73 chassis in Kansas City. I used the machine several time but mainly it sat in the garage next to the microvax2000 and PDP 11/23+. When I ran out of space because of 2 new Microvax II's and extra disk drives I decided to sell it to somebody on this list. I sold the boards and the purchaser didn't want the chassis because of the weight and size. You all can fight over it, $10 plus you pay shipping I'll provide packing and transport to the FedEx pickup for free. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 10:06:52 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Message-ID: <20000628150652.8746.qmail@hotmail.com> Just wondering, how rare is a model 12? I don't care about monetary value, this is a curiosity thing. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed Jun 28 11:07:15 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" Message-ID: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Howdy all, Another free for all question: How much time do you devote searching for old machines? How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? I've found lately that when I'm done with the rounds (that is when I can do the rounds) I usually don't have time to do the play and the machine often end up on a shelf (or floor or table or....) until I finaly free myself up. Also as the collection grows I have less time to spend with each machine and some don't get out anymore (C64, C128, ADAM etc...). It seems that the longer the setup time the less likely the machine is going to be used. I used to try to get one representative of each group easilly accessible but it is now impossible. What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? Francois From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed Jun 28 11:29:26 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Wang Professional-boot disk or docs? Message-ID: <004d01bfe11e$1f854780$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> How can you find your computer without having had coffee? Francois >I apologize--that reply was meant to go off list. I >will remember not to reply to messages before having >had coffee in the future! > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Jun 28 11:31:19 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <000401bfe11e$4ab3d070$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Francois said: > Another free for all question: > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? Insight! Sucat, His eyes Opened!!! This seems like a pretty insightful question. You make me feel like a guy with thirty kids who spends all his time looking for loose women. The drift is that it's way too much time of the former and not enough of the latter. Thanks for pointing this out. John A. From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 11:35:29 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C07735127@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I find that I don't spend enough time playing with the machines, but, then, I don't spend enough time searching, either :>. Seriously, I am in a similar situation, with every shelf available to me covered with computers and peripherals. I think from time to time about "thinning the herd" and choosing machines to specialize in--right about then, I come across something I know nothing about and get it! And thinning would require me to choose machines with which to part, which isn't easy. I _should_ start offering some items to the list soon! I do feel guilty for not firing up a variety of machines more often! --Mike From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 10:41:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" Message-ID: <000201bfe11b$dba12180$7764c0d0@ajp166> >What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? >Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? > >Francois Good point! I've generally stopped adding as I've reached space saturation and run out of possible time to operate the machines I dearly wanted. Yes, My old NS* is not getting enough time these days. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 12:18:14 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000627115034.00c70730@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <003501bfe124$d8c62600$0400c0a8@winbook> GIVE THIS GUY A BREAK! He's recycling, doncha know? I see lots of computer hardware in the dumpster, and that's not being recycled. Why is a working computer nobody wants enough to pay for it better than a box of parts they will pay for? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:15 PM Subject: The cost of collecting debate > Recently Jeff and Marvin have been debating the collecting cost issue > again. This was one of Jeff's salvos: > > >What I *do* > >care about though, are the poor stiffs who would like to pursue > >computing as a hobby, but will instead have to find something > >else to do, because the prices are out of sight. > > This is both true and a fiction at the same time. If you want to pursue > computer collecting as a hobby there are many underrepresented areas that > are still cheap. For example, PC/AT class computers. (aka 80286 based > machines). > > These typically sell for in the $1 - $15 range at most places, they are > also available for free in quite a few places. > > You can approach this particular class of machine as the point where > computers ceased being glorified "toys" and actually started being able to > do real work. If the IBM PC made it "acceptable" for mainstream business to > give its employees one computer each, it was the PC/AT that cemented this > relationship and made it possible to do work. > > This was the "start" of the "Millions of standards" bifurcation in the > computer industry, as up to this point computers were "99%" PC compatible > because everything was the same on them. PC/AT introduced us to an I/O slot > that could support a larger memory map and that lead to a host of new video > controllers (several examples could be collected from the "famous" ones > like the Orchid series and Hercules series, to the "infamous" ones.) Analog > monitors came about to support these cards and the very first "multisync" > monitor was introduced. [it impressed the heck out of me, even if it did > make big clicking noises as it tryed to swap in different components.] > > There is research to be done, knowledge to recover, and artifacts to > collect. All at very low prices. > > Then there is the understanding of Computation, as Richard Feynman and > others understood it, things like the Babbage difference engine and the > Eniac. Often you can re-create this sort of thing from scratch as a hobby > for less than it would cost to acquire an original artifact. People still > by Digi-Comp 1's at Garage Sales for $1 even when they go for >$300 on Ebay > and elsewhere. You can make your own Digi-Comp 1 out of plastic from plans > on the Net for about $50. > > Now there are "Investment Grade" Computers > > Ok, so the segment of the population that spends its disposable income on > antique trinkets has come to appreciate "old" computers. As is typical in > this type of scenario some machines become desirable because they are well > recognized while others remain anonymous. If you want one of those machines > then you are now going to have to compete with this group of people to > acquire one. New ones aren't being made (except for IMSAI's :-) so the > supply is fixed/dwindling. You can compete with your feet by tracking nice > pieces down (this is essentially what Antique Dealers have done forever) > or with your wallet. You can complain about how your feet are tired and > your wallet is empty, but it won't change anything. > > --Chuck > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 12:22:25 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEAD@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <004d01bfe125$6e41aa60$0400c0a8@winbook> It's true the DEC racks don't grow on trees, but their scrap value doesn't pay for shipping and storage. Ask anybody who's got them. Likewise, the PSU's cost a lot to move and store, but seldom bring benefit proportional to the effort. What's wrong with letting this guy have what he wants? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 3:16 PM Subject: RE: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts > > You do realize that PDP-11's are more than just cool toys don't you? > There > > are people/companies whose livelyhood depends on these systems and their > > continueing to run. > > Nah, running a CAT scanner is just child's play. > > And AFAIC, I don't really want to play with a PDP-11; I just > didn't want to see an otherwise complete system that was two > components away from total restoration ripped to shreds! > > > The only thing I can see that the buyer did wrong was leaving the > > powersupply! At least from what you've said I assume he left > > it. If he went so far as to get the backplane he really should have > > taken that. > > He's taking about a third, and leaving two thirds. > > The rack is staying behind too. But I guess DEC racks > grow on trees. > > -dq > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 12:32:11 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby References: <20000627220424.20205.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Will, my boy, It's absolutely for certain you'll regret that you're not in college for the rest of your life. That's true even if you eventually do go back and get a degree. The experience will be different and you've no way to reclaim it. Since you've little or no chance of getting most of these old machines you gather up and running, it's unlikely you'll learn much from them. Unless it's your goal eventually to become a scrap dealer, I'd say you're making what's probably the biggest and most far-reaching mistake you could possibly make. Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. Of course, I've just learned that my elder son isn't planning to return to Harvard next fall, (at least he learned enough while there to let my last check to him clear) and I don't know how well my younger son is doing at GA Tech. I know my sons, both of them, to be sometime goof-offs. Perhaps that how people will view your resume as well. If I were in your place, I'd be doing whatever it takes to get on track to make that graduation from college happen at the "usual" time, no matter what it takes. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 4:04 PM Subject: Price of our hobby > Well I can't be silent on this one... I'm broke as all hell, but I don't > care.. I should probably be in college right now but I'd rather spend 3K to > get a bunch of Interdata's and Perkin-Elmers... my other car is taken apart > and I ought to spend money on fixing it but I don't.. Sure, maybe these > aren't "good" choices, but whats important is that they ARE choices, I CHOSE > to spend my money in such a way, and I live with it. But I work, I pay my > bills, and hey, I could easily go to college if I'd get off my ass and work > at it.. If you want to just to sit around and bitch about how poor you are, > go for it, you won't get my sympathy. I know its entirely in my own power to > determine how much money I have/make, so I don't complain.. If you're > complaining, you probably don't understand that.. Besides, you could have > loads of money if you spent the time you spend bitching working instead... > Just my 2K worth... > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 28 12:51:26 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Evil Lurker Won, Gets His Parts Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEBB@TEGNTSERVER> > It's true the DEC racks don't grow on trees, but their scrap value doesn't > pay for shipping and storage. Ask anybody who's got them. Likewise, the > PSU's cost a lot to move and store, but seldom bring benefit proportional to > the effort. > > What's wrong with letting this guy have what he wants? See, I'm not a DEC guy, so I really don't know how rare a MicroPDP-11/73 is (and how different they are or aren't from a regular PDP-11). On the assumption that they don't make them anymore and thus are kinda rare, I thought it worthwhile to preserve/restore a nearly complete and almost operational system. And let me tell you how clean this thing was. Since the guy didn't want anything heavy, I picked up the TS05 tape drive out of the rack last night. The plexiglass tape door had not a scratch on it, nor did the rest of the unit. And no discoloration anywhere either. It had been used at the University of Louisville Medical School, and they took awesome care of it. I just thought it an ideal machine to save. After I looked at it even more carefully at home, I almost couldn't bring myself to remove the plexiglass door to replace the broken one on my Cipher F880. My Cipher isn't in nearly as good a shape. The two units aren't identical; while the TS05 is a Cipher F880, it doesn't support the 3200bpi density mine does. But I'll bet dollars to donuts that the mechanical assemblies are the same, so now I've got an excellent source of spares to keep my drive working. Now if i can just find a Prime 2301 Tape Controller... -doug q From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Jun 28 13:00:53 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Richard, Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the richest man in the world? -Mike Cheponis On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Will, my boy, It's absolutely for certain you'll regret that you're not in > college for the rest of your life. That's true even if you eventually do go > back and get a degree. The experience will be different and you've no way > to reclaim it. Since you've little or no chance of getting most of these > old machines you gather up and running, it's unlikely you'll learn much from > them. Unless it's your goal eventually to become a scrap dealer, I'd say > you're making what's probably the biggest and most far-reaching mistake you > could possibly make. > > Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you > graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll > wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have > no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or > in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. > > Of course, I've just learned that my elder son isn't planning to return to > Harvard next fall, (at least he learned enough while there to let my last > check to him clear) and I don't know how well my younger son is doing at GA > Tech. I know my sons, both of them, to be sometime goof-offs. > Perhaps that how people will view your resume as well. If I were in your > place, I'd be doing whatever it takes to get on track to make that > graduation from college happen at the "usual" time, no matter what it takes. > > Dick From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 12:15:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you > graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll > wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have > no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or > in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. That's such an old-school frame of mind, Dick. The world doesn't work like that anymore. Old style thinking like that went out of fashion with the 80s. This is the year 2000. Dinosaurs are extinct. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Jun 28 13:41:25 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: OT: College Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0773512B@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> I'll be first in line to say college is a good thing, and worth the time, money, and effort expended to obtain a degree. Doing so right after high school is the path of least resistance--it _is_ harder when you're older (from experience). That said, any employer who ignores you because the time between your high school and college graduations is not the "standard interval" without so much as asking about it is doing him or herself (and his or her company) a disservice. There are pursuits other than rehab or prison that could have filled that time--such as having served in the Peace Corps, the military, or a real-world job--that might just have made a person who waited to go to college appreciate the opportunity laid before them. A person who did such a thing may well be a better candidate for it. While there is no shortage of the kind of people who will not take a second look at those whose resumes don't fit the mold, there are also plenty of others less closed minded who would likely be more satisfying to work for. --Mike From elvey at hal.com Wed Jun 28 13:59:50 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006281859.LAA01324@civic.hal.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: > Richard, > > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > richest man in the world? > > -Mike Cheponis Hi You do have to be smart enough to learn how to steal without breaking serious laws. You have to learn how to turn on friends. You need to be really lucky. But, most of all, you have to be driven. For Will While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal references, I'd have a hard time getting past HR. One still needs the knowledge that you'd get from college. I have taken many extension courses as well as read and understood many upper college level books. I've never stopped learning, even though I left college in the middle. Although, I have a better excuse than most, I was, also, tired of the entire school thing. Find a way to stay in school. One other piece of advice. Don't listen to counselors. They wouldn't be doing the job there doing if they really knew what they were doing. Decide what you want from college and go for it. Dwight From red at bears.org Wed Jun 28 14:07:27 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Mike Cheponis wrote: > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > richest man in the world? I have to add my two cents to this. Yes, some companies will demand degrees and expect to see a candidate with 100% conventional background. In the tech sector, at least, these companies don't seem to be in the norm and where they do exist, are the LEAST interesting companies to work for. After I graduated from high school, I went straight into uni. I managed to complete my high school obligations with minimal effort and still graduate at the top 2% of my class---needless to say, this didn't translate into a highly successful career at the University of Washington. I attended UW for two years and dropped out without achieving Junior status. Today I am 23 years old and have hit the top of my profession (UNIX systems administration). In terms of technical knowledge, I outrank nearly all of my co-workers, many of whom are 15 years or more my senior. I have worked in numerous diverse environments, including several 'highly respected' companies such as Amazon.com, the Boeing Corporation, and Geoworks. Not once has my lack of a degree affected my ability to find a job. In fact, I am very up-front about my short-lived and extremely unglamourous engagement at uni. Yes, I am tooting my own horn here (quite loudly) but if I don't toot it, I'm afraid the fact that a successful career can be built on things other than advanced degrees may slip by unnoticed. Will I go back to school? Yes. Will it be to get a technical degree? Probably not. Divinity or theology are looking like likely candidates. ok r. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 28 14:54:58 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in the public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public domain), but also of user-group collections of software for these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc. I've asked around at a couple of prominent computer museums, but they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they archive and index the original software, like they've never considered it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject at all. I've heard of the Hercules emulator project, but I don't know what software they have archived so far, or what efforts they are currently making. If someone could point me towards an index of their software archives I'd appreciate it. I consider myself to be an expert at archiving DEC-related software, and often am involved in all sorts of projects in that sphere that benefit everyone from hobbyists to those with legal cases, but I know little to nothing about what archives of old IBM stuff are available. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 28 14:49:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: <000201bfe11b$dba12180$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: Lets say I have before me three things; a nifty vintage machine with some software that looks interesting, a large dumpster with a couple enticing cables hanging out, and a auction with all the people grousing the lack of late model Wintel boxes due to all the pallets of vintage computers. What do I do? I can hear the trash truck coming in the distance, the guy with the vintage machine and software is leaving as soon as he finishes a cheeseburger, and the auction starts in 5 minutes and I haven't registered yet. The answer is, I don't know what I would do, it would depend on what was really going on. The dumpster calls to me at a basic level the others can't reach, but I am a thinking being able to intellectually decide my path. Most likely I wander over and peek in the dumpster while I think about the other two choices, and how unfair the world is. ;) Back in the Wednesday night reality of my garage with no cars, most likely I split my time between testing/fixing some hardware and sorting out boxes of new stuff. I don't have much interest in running any software on less than the best platform I have to run it on. From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Wed Jun 28 15:10:40 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F78EAF@ALFEXC5> Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there anything on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. When I was in high school, we had one, but it didn't work. It didn't have any documentation either. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jun 28 15:17:35 2000 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000628161602.0099b100@popmail.voicenet.com> At 09:58 AM 6/28/00 -0400, you wrote: >OS/2 was not Microsoft's first attempt to create a >multitasking operating system. They were working on, and >I believe mostly finished, a DOS 4.0 that was multitasking. There was indeed a multi-tasking version of DOS 4.0 that was developed jointly by IBM and Microsoft. The lead engineers were however from IBM in Hursley. Never was released as far as I know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 28 15:15:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Ivory towers ubber alles In-Reply-To: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <20000627220424.20205.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Will, my boy, It's absolutely for certain you'll regret that you're not in >college for the rest of your life. That's true even if you eventually do go >back and get a degree. The experience will be different and you've no way >to reclaim it. Since you've little or no chance of getting most of these >old machines you gather up and running, it's unlikely you'll learn much from >them. Unless it's your goal eventually to become a scrap dealer, I'd say >you're making what's probably the biggest and most far-reaching mistake you >could possibly make. Sometimes college doesn't work out, and knowing when it ISN"T time for you to be there is good. I quit school after 5 years (note I didn't say five focused single track years), got married and worked for 3 years, then went back part time and ground out the quickest degree I could (BSCS instead of physics) in a little over a year. Some of us, and my guess is that this list is a collecting point, don't fit well as corporate pegs. If I ever get the desire to have all my square edges ground off and start kissing some moron's butt for a paycheck I will be very surprised. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jun 28 15:53:00 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: from Mike Cheponis at "Jun 28, 2000 11:00:53 am" Message-ID: <200006282053.NAA29538@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > richest man in the world? Dropped out. Yeah, that's the ticket. I'm sure inapproaprate commercial use of government and university property didn't have anything to do with him "dropping out." Eric From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jun 28 15:54:01 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Choose Dumpster #1, Dumpster #2, Dumpster #3 Message-ID: For me something about dumpsters seems to have a siren call like mermaids luring ships on the rocks. My son laughs every time I'm driving down the street and all of a sudden announce, "is that a full dumpster over there?" My feeling is that when somebody puts stuff in the dumpster they are "saying it has no value", I just want to prove them wrong. Having the "eye" to find the value in the trash, to recognize "good stuff". I'm like an archeologist walking through an area looking at rocks hoping to find the fossil missing link. The auction location scenario is a contest to see who can discern the "true" value of stuff and convince everyone else to drop out. The vintage machine and software that may be for sale seem to be more of a "known" commodity. Maybe it's the adventure, the thrill of discovery, the agony of lifting trash to find the pearl. I haven't had a breakdown yet but it could be caused if I had to choose between 3 dumpsters being approached by a single trash truck. Wait a minute it could be worse, 3 dumpsters each being approached by a trash truck. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 28 15:57:45 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: "FBA" "Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing"" (Jun 28, 11:07) References: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 11:07, FBA wrote: > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? Very little, now. I used to, but I've run out of room (I hid a scanner and an SGI monitor in my wife's wardrobe recently). Every so often, someone says "I hear you collect..." and before you know it, there's another one. They seem to come in little bursts, too -- nothing interesting for months, then two or three in a week from different sources. > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? Not nearly enough :-) A few months ago, I reached the state in the garage that there literally was no room to get *to* almost anything, far less *into* it. Six weeks ago was the point at which it all got moved out, and the conversion/extension work began. By this weekend, I'll be putting in the new network cable and starting painting in the new computer room. The walls have been lined and plastered (makes the room smaller, but deals with the condensation issues), new ceiling, it's all rewired (175 metres of cable in the power circuits alone), purpose-built workbenches (still to be built, though), raised computer floor, floor boxes for power and network, floor-to-ceiling shelves in one corner to hold and run about 20 small machines and their peripherals, space for two DEC racks and a couple of BA23's. Of course, not everything that went out will fit back in, but most will, and will be usable. Though it might be a while before I finish all the benches and stuff, and then I better move the scanner and monitor before I do much else, or The Boss might renege on her promise to pay for half of it! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bill at chipware.com Wed Jun 28 16:22:06 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Peter Turnbull wrote: > Six weeks ago was the point at which it all got moved out, > and the conversion/extension work began. By this weekend, > I'll be putting in the new network cable and starting painting > in the new computer room. The walls have been lined and > plastered (makes the room smaller, but deals with the > condensation issues), new ceiling, it's all rewired (175 metres > of cable in the power circuits alone), purpose-built workbenches > (still to be built, though), raised computer floor, floor boxes > for power and network, floor-to-ceiling shelves in one corner to > hold and run about 20 small machines and their peripherals, space > for two DEC racks and a couple of BA23's. Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient time/money/space? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 28 14:06:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 27, 0 11:12:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/13260cfc/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 28 14:18:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000628000555.00961c30@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 28, 0 00:05:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/e8d33527/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 28 15:51:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 28, 0 00:09:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000628/cab58737/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 15:29:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I've asked around at a couple of prominent computer museums, but > they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they > archive and index the original software, like they've never considered > it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the > wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject > at all. Assumptions like these don't take into account lack of staff or lack of funding for such projects. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 15:35:02 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: College Message-ID: <005801bfe141$3c340830$7764c0d0@ajp166> From: Passer, Michael To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:48 PM Subject: OT: College >degree. Doing so right after high school is the path of >least resistance--it _is_ harder when you're older (from >experience). However when older it can be a more directed activity. >have filled that time--such as having served in the Peace >Corps, the military, or a real-world job--that might just >have made a person who waited to go to college appreciate >the opportunity laid before them. A person who did such a >thing may well be a better candidate for it. Big time. >While there is no shortage of the kind of people >who will not take a second look at those whose resumes >don't fit the mold, there are also plenty of others less >closed minded who would likely be more satisfying to >work for. so very true. Those are the people willing to offer challenges that both benefit the business and the people. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 15:40:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby Message-ID: <005901bfe141$3cecf7f0$7764c0d0@ajp166> From: r. 'bear' stricklin >I have to add my two cents to this. Yes, some companies will demand >degrees and expect to see a candidate with 100% conventional >background. In the tech sector, at least, these companies don't seem to be >in the norm and where they do exist, are the LEAST interesting companies >to work for. Over an extended period I encounterd a lot of old guard companies that fit that mold or worse have sterotypes on the brain. >Today I am 23 years old and have hit the top of my profession (UNIX >systems administration). In terms of technical knowledge, I outrank nearly It will make difference when your 47 and looking. >Not once has my lack of a degree affected my ability to find a job. In >fact, I am very up-front about my short-lived and extremely unglamourous >engagement at uni. With 30 years behind me and 6 major companies I can say at one time It didn't either for me. Then as athey say, I got old. >Yes, I am tooting my own horn here (quite loudly) but if I don't toot it, >I'm afraid the fact that a successful career can be built on things other >than advanced degrees may slip by unnoticed. Much truth to that, but some day it will come to you or someone with same expereince and he'll have the degree... >Will I go back to school? Yes. Will it be to get a technical degree? >Probably not. Divinity or theology are looking like likely candidates. Same here. I've visited from time to time for various courses but if I go for the degree electronics or computer will not be the focus either. Allison From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 28 15:31:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F78EAF@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Eros, Anthony wrote: > Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there anything > on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable > price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. Yes, you scored. I have all the docs for it but a couple volumes are out on loan. Contact me privately so we can work out arrangements for copying. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 28 16:56:12 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000628175612.26200c86@trailing-edge.com> >> I've asked around at a couple of prominent computer museums, but >> they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they >> archive and index the original software, like they've never considered >> it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the >> wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject >> at all. >Assumptions like these don't take into account lack of staff or lack of >funding for such projects. I'm sure that's a good part of it. Another part of it is that I get the sense that most of the curators don't trust anyone else with what software they do have (whether it be punched cards or paper tape) and they'd rather just let it sit and rot away rather than do something to archive it. I'm not exactly a newbie to the field of archiving software and data - for example, the DECUS PDP-10 and PDP-11 software collections I maintain represent several thousand input tapes and floppies covering the last five decades, and Mentec will shortly be issuing CD's containing DEC PDP-11 OS archives I've archived over the years - but I get the feeling that I'm not "a member of the club" when it comes to dealing with museums and other archives. Maybe my technical background (physics, math, and computers) puts me at a severe disadvantage compared to folks who are trained to be museum curators or librarians. Whatever the reason, so far most of my offers to volunteer my equipment and time to archive the old software is simply ignored. Sometimes I get a polite letter back, but never do I get the impression that there's some coherent plan to usefully archive the old software. In some cases I'm told that archiving is flat out impossible for technical reasons (I once had a heated debate with a SI curator who insisted that 8" floppies couldn't be read or written anymore.) Or maybe I feel too strongly that all the stuff should be archived, and my strong feelings immediately put me in the "crackpot" category as far as museum curators are concerned. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Jun 28 17:09:13 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay Message-ID: Someone just listed an 11/44 on eBay today; the URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=369721415 System seems to include no disk or tape other than "dual tape drives" (e.g., dual TU58's ...). It has no bids right now, so I couldn't even make a guess at what the reserve is. I'd bid on it myself, if I had a reasonable way to get it to the East Coast .... --Pat. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Jun 28 17:26:36 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com>; from Bill Sudbrink on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400 References: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? I'm already doing it to an extent. I have a 10x20 room in the middle of my house. It used to be a patio, and my house is C-shaped and built with block, so that means this room had block walls on 3 sides already. I put 4 racks across the 4th side, which fills up about half of that side. Then I built about 4 feet of 4-inch-thick block wall, reinforced with rebar and concrete, and then a door opening, and then 18" of 8-inch block. Long-term I'm working on an air-powered sci-fi-style sliding steel door (more about that at the bottom of http://gw.kb7pwd.ampr.org/~ecloud/journal/991205.html). The half-width block is to make room for the door to slide into when it opens. The floor is 12" slate tile. There are cable trays hanging from the ceiling (steel studs hanging from bailing wire work well enough; I couldn't find anything else that more closely resembled a cable tray at Home Depot.) There's a projector to project TV or computer video on one of the 10' end walls (the entire wall). One rack is dedicated for A/V stuff, one for PC's, one has a 4-track open reel tape deck and one is mostly empty at the moment. (But the last two are not full-height either; I need to get a matched set of full-height racks some day. I will probably inherit my dad's eventually.) The all-block walls mean I can crank up the sound on a movie without any of it being audible outside the house; and they also will provide security when I get all the steel doors done. There is the one sliding door in progress, then I need to replace the french doors on the opposite wall with steel ones, then build some sliding doors behind the racks. And I may end up doing some roof work too; the adjacent roof over the next converted patio behind this one leaks because it is too close to horizontal, and it will be difficult to get it to slope any more without raising the roofs above both rooms higher. This room is not quite ideal; it could be bigger. But it has the potential to be the most secure and soundproof. I have lots of junk spread throughout the rest of the house anyway. I'm not married so can get away with that. Also if I was building from scratch, I think I would do the raised-floor thing. Maybe use aluminum diamondplate squares. (or not... I do walk around barefoot in there a lot) It would also let me do more of the sci-fi decorating, like maybe some backlit glass-block sections at the doorways, or something like that. In this house the floors are concrete and all at the same height, so I'd rather keep it that way rather than having to step up into the computer room. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From transit at lerctr.org Wed Jun 28 18:02:56 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: So far, I've mostly stuck with micros (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc.) But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie like me to: a. ship b. get it running c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, etc.) d. keep it running (does it require specialized maintenance) My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. So, should I jump into the fray? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 18:08:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 28, 2000 03:54:58 PM Message-ID: <200006282308.QAA01283@shell1.aracnet.com> > I've heard of the Hercules emulator project, but I don't know what > software they have archived so far, or what efforts they are currently > making. If someone could point me towards an index of their software > archives I'd appreciate it. I played with Hercules briefly a while back when I had some free time (free time? what's that). Anyway, here are some links, I don't think they've got any kind of a list of available software though. http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360/ http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/ Links to the software archives: http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/hercfaq.html BTW, I didn't know what I was doing, but the emulator seems to be very cool, and very well done. I was able to get OS/360 booted on it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 17:36:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at Jun 28, 2000 06:09:13 PM Message-ID: <200006282236.PAA28604@shell1.aracnet.com> > Someone just listed an 11/44 on eBay today; the URL is > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=369721415 > > System seems to include no disk or tape other than "dual tape drives" > (e.g., dual TU58's ...). It has no bids right now, so I couldn't even > make a guess at what the reserve is. > > I'd bid on it myself, if I had a reasonable way to get it to the East > Coast .... > > --Pat. Reading the 'description', I'm left wondering if it contains any cards! Or if it's just an empty chassis! Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 28 18:15:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <200006282308.QAA01283@shell1.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200006282308.QAA01283@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000628231549.16535.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > I was able to get OS/360 booted on it. Surely you mean IPL'd, don't you? :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 18:42:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" at Jun 28, 2000 06:02:56 PM Message-ID: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> Um, I suppose I'm fairly 'into' VAXen, and I definitly like messing with VMS. I've one thing to say about this system. *I* wouldn't touch it! Getting the stuff to get it up and running would likely be a real pain (although I do have a system console for one). If you want to mess with VAXen then get a 3100 series MicroVAX or VAXstation, or a 4000 series VAXstation. If you're more interested in VMS, then you might also consider an Alpha. Then once you've got one system up you can consider getting other systems such as Q-Bus VAXen, or maybe a big VAXen. > So far, I've mostly stuck with micros (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc.) > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > like me to: > a. ship Probably have to be crated. > b. get it running Nightmarish I suspect > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > etc.) VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can be found at the following page. http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ But if you insist on being sick and twisted http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ http://www.netbsd.com Hardware? Just about anywhere. > d. keep it running (does it require specialized maintenance) Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. > My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple > of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, > halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. > > So, should I jump into the fray? YES!!! But, not with this system. Personally I think probably your best system to start with would be a VAXstation 4000 of some sort. A personal VAX with 24MB is quite nice, a personal Alpha with about 112MB is quite nice (the amount of RAM is probably the biggest thing to consider). 1-2GB of Disk space and a CD-ROM would also be recommended. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 28 18:51:20 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:05 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Re: Getting into VAXing (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14682.36728.954365.733207@phaduka.neurotica.com> Zane. You wimp. An 8350 is a fairly friendly BIbus system. Nothing weird about it. It's perhaps not the best "first" VAX, but it's certainly not as daunting as something like an 11/780 or an 8800. There's certainly more to VAX life than the desktop machines. If this guy is motivated, and the machine is in reasonably good shape, and maybe with a little help from us, I'll bet he can get this machine up & running with only a little bit of sweat. -Dave McGuire On June 28, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Um, I suppose I'm fairly 'into' VAXen, and I definitly like messing with > VMS. I've one thing to say about this system. *I* wouldn't touch it! > Getting the stuff to get it up and running would likely be a real pain > (although I do have a system console for one). > > If you want to mess with VAXen then get a 3100 series MicroVAX or > VAXstation, or a 4000 series VAXstation. If you're more interested in VMS, > then you might also consider an Alpha. Then once you've got one system up > you can consider getting other systems such as Q-Bus VAXen, or maybe a big > VAXen. > > > > So far, I've mostly stuck with micros (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc.) > > > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > > like me to: > > a. ship > > Probably have to be crated. > > > b. get it running > > Nightmarish I suspect > > > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > > etc.) > > VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can > be found at the following page. > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > > But if you insist on being sick and twisted > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > http://www.netbsd.com > > Hardware? Just about anywhere. > > > d. keep it running (does it require specialized maintenance) > > Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've > found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM > Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model > probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. > > > My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple > > of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, > > halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. > > > > So, should I jump into the fray? > > YES!!! But, not with this system. Personally I think probably your best > system to start with would be a VAXstation 4000 of some sort. A personal > VAX with 24MB is quite nice, a personal Alpha with about 112MB is quite > nice (the amount of RAM is probably the biggest thing to consider). 1-2GB > of Disk space and a CD-ROM would also be recommended. > > Zane > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 28 18:52:21 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: "Bill Sudbrink" "Your dream computer room." (Jun 28, 17:22) References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <10006290052.ZM3424@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 17:22, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Peter Turnbull wrote: > > Six weeks ago was the point at which it all got moved out, > > and the conversion/extension work began. By this weekend, > Well, I can temper that a little, maybe :-) Firstly, it's smaller than it sounds, and secondly, this is the culmination of 10 years saving to do it: when we moved here 10 years ago, it was obvious that the garage was designed to be extended to the house, joining the car port and leaving the latter as the garage (it would then be fully enclosed). However, the week we got the keys, I was made redundant, and all plans/dreams were put on hold. After a while I went back to uni to finish my degree[1], and it wasn't at all clear that we'd stay in York when I graduated. I got a job on a 2-year contract as a sysadmin at the uni, still no security, and meanwhile my wife was doing a weekly commute to work in Edinburgh (200 miles away) because she had too good a job to give up. So we continued to save any spare money, and last year my job was made permanent (with a raise) at about the same time my wife landed a good job in Yorkshire. We spent quite a while chewing over plans before we decided to call the builder, organise a loan, and the garage plus small extension is now (nearly) a computer room-cum-workshop and a utility room (for the washing machine, freezer, etc). A lot was done "on the cheap". I got the flooring from someone who reclaims such things from old buildings; a friend was buying a large quantity and I got mine extra cheap -- but I had to spend a weekend with a blowtorch removing the old glue from the supports, wire brushing them, and a day getting them cut down to size and so on. Another day sorting out good panels from bad (on top of 7' stacks) and moving them 25 miles (and they're heavy!). I got the modular shelf supports as surplus, from another building project, along with locks and door fittings I wanted. I got a lot of network cable and fittings cheaply, over a period of time. I got a patch panel free, a while ago, for example. A local kitchen unit supplier has a 50%-or-more-off sale -- guess where I got the cupboard units. My 5" metalworking vice was a "found object" several years ago. [1] Actually, to start again from scratch. First time around, I went to University straight from school, realised partway through 1st year I'd made a bad course choice, and gave up. Anyway, it was so many decades ago that it counted for zero credit. > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? Much what I'm doing now, but bigger, of course :-) The new room is 2.7 metres (9') by 4.6m (15'). One side is computer space, the other side will have my drill, miniature lathe, electronics bench, workbench and vise, etc. Only about 1/2 - 2/3 of my collection of micros will fit and be usable, and there's no room for the PCB developing tanks I acquired, nor for my photographic tanks and enlarger. Nearly all the DEC equipment will fit in the two racks. Honest. OK, maybe something will have to go on top. What did that brochure say the maximum floor loading was? I'd make it two rooms, each about 10' x 15', one for computers, the other for electronics/photo/mechanics. Or maybe the PCB and photo stuff should be separate again, away from the dust. Lots of power sockets in both; let's say one twin socket per linear foot of wall. Surge and RFI suppressors, of course, and separate circuits for computers/electronics/tools. RCD on the tools but maybe not the minis. Network connections (or rather, structured wiring, since some will be used for serial or control lines) everywhere, even beside the lathe (maybe I'll use those stepper motors one day). One bench with a built-in light box. Floor-to-ceiling shelves, fully adjustable, in units 600mm wide (2') and 700mm deep for all the micros. And their monitors! I'd want about 4 of those units (I will have 2). Make them strong (the brackets in mine are rated for a 67kg load). Space to walk all round the 19" racks (I'll have about 20" behind mine, accessible from one side only). A place to put the microfiche reader where I can use it with moderate comfort (it used to be on top of a 5' high shelf unit!). Desk space for a few favourite machines, and a trolley with 'scope, BBC Micro, terminal and printer, and of course make sure there's space to wheel it around to where it's needed. Plenty of bookshelves - I have a full set of RSX manuals, two sets of RT11, one Solaris, lots of other Unix, Acorn, programming, and networking stuff, and shelfloads of data books. I just had to turn down a couple of shelfloads of SGI manuals because I have no room left :-( Leave some wall space for a noticeboard and/or whiteboard. Air conditioning would be nice, but I've settled for a large(ish) extractor fan. No budget left! Heating is, of course, largely by minicomputer :-) though now there is a small central heating radiator and we have a portable dehumidifier which I used to use to keep the workshop air dry (cheaper than heating, and saves a lot of tools from condensation/damp damage). Good lighting -- I'd go for those fluorescent fittings with the aluminium diffuser grids built in if I could afford it (they're about 70 UKP a throw). Ah well, next time around ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jpdavis at gorge.net Wed Jun 28 18:53:52 2000 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <395A9010.7D5A2EDC@gorge.net> A classic dinosaur pen, Raised flooring, Central Air, Glass enclosure. Jim Davis From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 18:56:51 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400 References: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000628185651.E10437@mrbill.net> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? I bought my current house with the intention of using part of it as a "machine room". It has a 2-car garage, thats been "retrofitted" with fake wood paneling, a "finished" ceiling, etc, and some really cheap carpet. I'm going to redo the floor with composition vinyl tile (like what they have in the halls of high schools, etc), and have the electrics beefed-up a bit. No computer flooring, but I'm going to bolt a couple of racks directly to the concrete floor, and put in a BIG window AC unit, so I can comfortably work out there in the middle of the summer here in Texas (its been 95+F here for the past 2-3 weeks..) Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 19:02:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay Message-ID: <20000629000209.7945.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, it says "do not assme item includes anything other than what is shown in the pictures" and the pictures clearly show the cardcage full of cards, so I wouldn't worry too much. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 19:01:05 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:02:56PM -0500 References: <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: <20000628190104.F10437@mrbill.net> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:02:56PM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > My only experience with VAXen was at a terminal in college and at a couple > of jobs. The machine itself was always kept in its own, airconditioned, > halon-fire-extinguisher equipped, raised floor room. > So, should I jump into the fray? I'd recommend starting with a machine such as a VAXstation 3100 or 4000-VLC, and then working to older bigger hardware from there... I've currently got a VS3100 and a 4000-VLC (master.decvax.org). I'd kill to have a 11/7x0 machine (I've got plenty of room for it), but have yet not been able to find one available within a reasonable distance (and have yet to find *any* DEC hardware available in Austin...) Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 15:50:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <000201bfe156$cf791800$6d64c0d0@ajp166> From: Bill Sudbrink >spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal >"fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient >time/money/space? Wooha, now there a blue sky idea. Simple though, 1000sqft with net power drops from the ceiling, floor would not be raised but work benches for smaller systems plus a rolling work bench for doing repair work. One wall would be manuals and spares. Oh yes, Air conditioning for the bigger boxen and me too. Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 28 19:11:49 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 28, 2000 04:42:02 PM Message-ID: <200006290011.SAA11071@calico.litterbox.com> > > > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > > like me to: > > a. ship > > Probably have to be crated. > > > b. get it running > > Nightmarish I suspect > > > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > > etc.) > > VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can > be found at the following page. > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > > Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've > found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM > Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model > probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. The 8350 isn't all that bad. I ran one when I worked for the university lo these many years ago. Reasonably quick, as I recall it used 110 instead of 220 power, and so on. Some caviets: 1. Unless this machine comes with a SCSI card or you can get one for it inexpensively, I wouldn't bother. The drives that it was designed for are huge, slow, not very big datawise, and noisy. 2. It can NOT netboot, at least not as a VMScluster leaf node. I tend to agree with Zane's recommendation for starting with a vaxstation or microvax 3100. The 8350 wouldn't be my first choice for a beginner's machine. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 19:21:05 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Available: RL02K-DC disk pack Message-ID: <20000628192105.G10437@mrbill.net> Anybody have a use for an RL02K-DC disk pack? In original box, even. I had intended to make it into a clock, but the shock meter isnt red yet, and it would be a sin to destory a still-usable piece of no-longer-made media... Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 28 19:21:37 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <395A9691.C03068A6@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? In line according to increasing amounts of time/space/money: First by a long ways, BIG, at least a 10,000 square feet minimum building with fire protection and climate control to provide for a display area and the rest of the items. Second, a fire proof, climate controlled area to provide a reasonable degree of protection for documentation/software. Third, plenty of power to take care of any big iron. Forth, a WELL equipped tech area for working/playing with the computers. Fifth, plenty of shelving for storage of computers/peripherals/etc. not on display. Sixth, a classroom with a program to encourage young people to learn more than just how to turn on a computer and think they are then a genius. Seventh, an aggresive program to solicit cooperation of industry, user groups, etc. in documenting the history of computers. Eighth, an auditorium where talks on computer related subjects could be given. Those are the things off the top of my head. The number and scope of this list could be increased almost effortlessly :). From retro at retrobits.com Wed Jun 28 19:31:11 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" References: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: <009f01bfe161$5d846be0$0201640a@colossus> ----- Original Message ----- From: "FBA" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:07 AM Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? Well, I've taken to spending a few hours every other weekend or so hitting the local thrift stores. Sometimes it is slim pickings, while at other times it really pays off, like the TRS-80 Model I L2 I picked up at Goodwill for $4, then fixed with a $3 fuse (thanks to folks on this list). > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? I've been trying to fit in more time playing with the C128. How many hours a week, I can't precisely say. But I probably spend as much time playing per week as I do looking, if not more. I have a "vintage" desk in my house devoted mostly to the C128. However, since my collection is primarily Commodore, I can use the monitor (1080) and disk drive (1571) with most any of my machines, including VIC-20, C64, C16, +4 (just purchased, currently en-route to my house) and C128. I hooked up a 1541 (using a variant of the XE1541 cable) to my Linux box and use software that lets me copy files from the Internet to Commodore-format disks. I can even get CP/M software over to the C128 using a two-step procedure. It's a blast playing with 15+ year-old software again! > What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? See above. > Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? Well, I feel a little bad about the VIC-20, and I'm going to spend some more time with it. Why, you might ask? Well, it's such an incredibly simple contraption, you can know almost everything there is to know about it. That's appealing to me. I'd like to really put it through it's paces. I'm looking for a 8K or 16K RAM upgrade though...3.5K is a little slim, even for a determined hobbyist! - Earl Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 19:36:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <14682.36728.954365.733207@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 28, 2000 07:51:20 PM Message-ID: <200006290036.RAA14293@shell1.aracnet.com> > Zane. You wimp. An 8350 is a fairly friendly BIbus system. Yep, in this case feel free to call me a wimp. I've seen pieces of a 8350, I really don't want to mess with something that big, and slow unless it's a 11/780. Still you've got to remember my primary interest is VMS, not the hardware under it, though I do like playing with the hardware. Also, space is currently my primary concern, I don't have any. > Nothing weird about it. It's perhaps not the best "first" VAX, but > it's certainly not as daunting as something like an 11/780 or an > 8800. There's certainly more to VAX life than the desktop machines. Sure there is more to VAX life than desktops, and I've got some, BUT I wouldn't recommend one to anyone as a first VAX. Besides having that desktop can help get the BIG VAX up and running. Shoot, my first two VAXen were a VAXstation II/RC and MicroVAX II. I sure wouldn't recommend either as first systems unless they're picked up for free. If they're still running on MFM disks, you'll probably have a real headache getting the system running. I love Q-Bus systems, but don't think they should be a first system. It's to easy to pick up a VAXstation 3100 dirt cheap, or free now. > If this guy is motivated, and the machine is in reasonably good > shape, and maybe with a little help from us, I'll bet he can get this > machine up & running with only a little bit of sweat. > > -Dave McGuire Um... I saw this on eBay yesterday, and as I read it, it's basically just the CPU. I'm sorry, I do not consider this a good first system. I maintain that the best first system is either a 3100 or 4000 series system. BTW, what's the power and cooling requirements for one of these puppies? You really need to consider that, and the fact it's apparently in a 40" Rack! Remember shipping was one of his concerns . Zane From ryan at inc.net Wed Jun 28 19:43:38 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing References: <200006290011.SAA11071@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <395A9BBA.D8916E94@inc.net> I realize that VMS is the one true OS for VAXen... But let's say I was in a mood to run a *BSD... what's a good, neat looking, older, classic VAX that at least has ethernet and scsi easily available and supported? R Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > > > But I noticed someone auctioning a VAX 8350 for about $50 over on Ebay, > > > and I wondered, would it be relatively straightforward for a VAX newbie > > > like me to: > > > a. ship > > > > Probably have to be crated. > > > > > b. get it running > > > > Nightmarish I suspect > > > > > c. find software (Unix, Vms, etc) and hardware (disk drives, tape drives, > > > etc.) > > > > VMS is the *ONE* True OS!!! Info on the truely great Hobbyist licenses can > > be found at the following page. > > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > > > > Probably pretty easy. While I've not messed with this particular model I've > > found the VAXen I've got to be very reliable. Except the ones using old MFM > > Hard drives (and that's a hard drive issue). I do suspect this model > > probably requires a climet controlled computer room, but really don't know. > > The 8350 isn't all that bad. I ran one when I worked for the university lo > these many years ago. Reasonably quick, as I recall it used 110 instead of 220 > power, and so on. Some caviets: 1. Unless this machine comes with a SCSI > card or you can get one for it inexpensively, I wouldn't bother. The drives > that it was designed for are huge, slow, not very big datawise, and noisy. > 2. It can NOT netboot, at least not as a VMScluster leaf node. I tend to > agree with Zane's recommendation for starting with a vaxstation or microvax > 3100. The 8350 wouldn't be my first choice for a beginner's machine. > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 19:38:18 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: College References: <200006281859.LAA01324@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001501bfe162$54d8c440$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, going to college opens the doors so you don't have to become adept at "breaking-and-entering" though that may still be necessary over the long run. Nowadays, the information you take from your classes is generally obsolete before final exams, but the techniques in acquiring and applying it are not. Moreover, the degree shows that you were, at least, responsible enough to stick with it and attend enough classes and do enough of the work to graduate. It shows you can finish something, while graduate school shows that you can finish something pretty sizeable without having your hand held. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:59 PM Subject: OT: College > Mike Cheponis wrote: > > Richard, > > > > Wasn't there this nerdy guy who started at Harvard but dropped out after > > a short while to start a company with one of his buddies, and is now the > > richest man in the world? > > > > -Mike Cheponis > > Hi > You do have to be smart enough to learn how to steal without > breaking serious laws. You have to learn how to turn on friends. > You need to be really lucky. But, most of all, you have to be > driven. > > For Will > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > references, I'd have a hard time getting past HR. One still > needs the knowledge that you'd get from college. I have taken > many extension courses as well as read and understood many > upper college level books. I've never stopped learning, even > though I left college in the middle. Although, I have a better > excuse than most, I was, also, tired of the entire > school thing. > Find a way to stay in school. > One other piece of advice. Don't listen to counselors. They > wouldn't be doing the job there doing if they really knew what > they were doing. Decide what you want from college and go for it. > Dwight > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 19:40:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20000629000209.7945.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Will Jennings" at Jun 28, 2000 06:02:09 PM Message-ID: <200006290040.RAA14711@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Well, it says "do not assme item includes anything other than what is shown > in the pictures" and the pictures clearly show the cardcage full of cards, > so I wouldn't worry too much. Doh! You're right! I'm obviously needing my eyes checked. I only saw the top picture. Strange... Hmm, wonder what cards are in it..... Zane From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Jun 28 19:35:02 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Time spent Looking VS time spent "Playing" In-Reply-To: <003001bfe11b$049dcbc0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Message-ID: Hi Francois, On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, FBA wrote: > Howdy all, > > Another free for all question: > How much time do you devote searching for old machines? Bout 15 minutes a day to search EBay, and another hour perusuing auction sites. > How much time "Playing" (fixing, using etc...) these machines? > All weekend during cold weather, very little during the summer. > I've found lately that when I'm done with the rounds (that is when I can do > the rounds) I usually don't have time to do the play and the machine often > end up on a shelf (or floor or table or....) until I finaly free myself up. > Also as the collection grows I have less time to spend with each machine and > some don't get out anymore (C64, C128, ADAM etc...). It seems that the > longer the setup time the less likely the machine is going to be used. > I used to try to get one representative of each group easilly accessible but > it is now impossible. > What do you do? How do you manage your "quality" time with your machines? > Do you feel guilty for neglecting that old (insert machine name here)? > > Francois > I feel guilty about the stack of VS3100's and DS3100's that I need to test, document, clean up, and sell. I want to build two boxes with a variety of parts to test NetBSD ports on, and unload the rest. I feel guilty about the stack of documentation I have that needs to be scanned, buffed, PDFed, and posted to the website I need to build. I feel guilty about the home repair and improvement that isn't getting done. I feel guilty about not getting out and meeting more people (female), and not getting in better shape (not round). If I had kids or pets I'd feel guilty about not spending enough quality time with them. I don't feel guilty about doing any of the above things whilst my computers sit idle. Clint From richard at idcomm.com Wed Jun 28 19:43:11 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: College References: <005801bfe141$3c340830$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <003101bfe163$07b24a00$0400c0a8@winbook> True, fer shurr . . . BUT . . . ask anyone who's looked for work in this labor market, when they say people are being cold-called by headhunters and the like . . . ask someone who fits the conventional model, even 20 years hence, and then ask someone who doesn't, for whatever reason, military, family, winning the lotto, making a million-selling record, etc, and see who gets the jobs and who doesn't. It's hard enough getting people to read a resume' without having to wade through lots of difficult-to understand material in it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: College > From: Passer, Michael > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:48 PM > Subject: OT: College > > > >degree. Doing so right after high school is the path of > >least resistance--it _is_ harder when you're older (from > >experience). > > > However when older it can be a more directed activity. > > >have filled that time--such as having served in the Peace > >Corps, the military, or a real-world job--that might just > >have made a person who waited to go to college appreciate > >the opportunity laid before them. A person who did such a > >thing may well be a better candidate for it. > > > Big time. > > >While there is no shortage of the kind of people > >who will not take a second look at those whose resumes > >don't fit the mold, there are also plenty of others less > >closed minded who would likely be more satisfying to > >work for. > > > so very true. Those are the people willing to offer challenges > that both benefit the business and the people. > > Allison > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 28 19:45:09 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Re: Getting into VAXing (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <14682.36728.954365.733207@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200006290036.RAA14293@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14682.39957.64687.293219@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 28, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Yep, in this case feel free to call me a wimp. I've seen pieces of a 8350, > I really don't want to mess with something that big, and slow unless it's > a 11/780. 11/780s definitely have personality. > Um... I saw this on eBay yesterday, and as I read it, it's basically just > the CPU. I'm sorry, I do not consider this a good first system. I > maintain that the best first system is either a 3100 or 4000 series system. Call me adventurous... ;) > BTW, what's the power and cooling requirements for one of these puppies? Not too bad, actually, as long as you don't try to run RA-series disks on it. > You really need to consider that, and the fact it's apparently in a 40" > Rack! Remember shipping was one of his concerns . True...But the 8350 is a 10.5" chassis that can be re-racked to coexist with other hardware. I really like the BA32 chassis. :-) -Dave McGuire From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 28 19:43:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: "Shawn T. Rutledge" "Re: Your dream computer room." (Jun 28, 15:26) References: <10006282157.ZM3210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com> <20000628152635.B2164@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: <10006290143.ZM3512@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 15:26, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > I'm already doing it to an extent. I have a 10x20 room in the middle > of my house. Sounds pretty cool... > This room is not quite ideal; it could be bigger. I've had some sort of workshop or hobby room in every house I've lived in, and I've noticed there seem to be only two sizes: too small, and not big enough. > away with that. Also if I was building from scratch, I think I would > do the raised-floor thing. Maybe use aluminum diamondplate squares. > (or not... I do walk around barefoot in there a lot) Don't, it's cold and noisy, and actually less strong than most computer flooring. I had the choice of carpet-tiled floor panels or vinyl. If you could get linoleum instead of vinyl, that's even better (more expensive, though). I went for vinyl because it's easier to sweep than a carpet (in a workshop, where there's sawdust and metal swarf) and much easier to lift vinyl-covered panels (the panel lifter is a suction device like the ones glass workers use for large sheets of glass) than carpet (velcro-backed lifters work on some types, but most use metal teeth to bite into the carpet tile). I was also put off by experience at work: the hardware techs tell me that the failure rate on PSUs and fans has risen three-fold since we moved from a building with a vinyl-surfaced flooring to one with carpet (more dust). However, carpet is much better acoustically. > In this house the floors are concrete and all at the same height, so > I'd rather keep it that way rather than having to step up into the > computer room. It doesn't cost much to have a layer of concrete screeding added. The utility room which occupies the part of the garage I didn't get, plus the extension, is 4" concrete screed on top of 2" expanded polystyrene insulation/damp-proofing, to make the two floors the same level. If it's not practical to raise the floor elsewhere, you might consider excavating the middle room a few inches. Damp isn't a big issue unless the level would be below the water table; in my room, there was an extra damp-proof layer added (basically thick polythene sheet) bonded into the existing damp-proof course in the original brick walls (and the interior layer, which is 4"x2" timber framing with glass fibre fill, set 2" back from the brickwork, sits on top of that, one layer of the sheeting continuing up the inside of the brickwork for a couple of feet). There's a 5" step up to our new utility room; that's very little really, but I'm going to build a small ramp so I can trundle a rack or the trolley in and out (I sometimes take stuff to University Open Days and suchlike). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed Jun 28 20:00:10 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer exhibit [Was: Re: Your dream computer room] Message-ID: <01eb01bfe165$603e37e0$0200a8c0@marvin> I've always envisioned at least four rooms for my museum: 1) a static display hall, with a variety of shelves extending out from the walls, holding a variety of micros with monitors/TVs. The computers would be running random demos (e.g. the Juggler or the Boing ball, for Amigaphiles) or programs. The aim is to provoke a "Wow!" reaction at the sheer variety of shapes, sizes, and colours of cases, monitors, and graphics. 2) A "period" gallery, where examples of important computers are shown in their natural habitat. e.g. a TI-99/4A with cassette recorder and wired remote controllers would be connected to a TV in a recreation of an early 80s rec. room, complete with red carpet, photoprinted wood panelling, Farrah Fawcett poster, and battered 60's Formica and steel furniture. 3) A "hands-on" arcade or exhibit, where relatively "expendable" common computers (e.g. C-64, TI-99/4A, Atari 800XL) are set up with a variety of games carts and business software (complete with tape drives, disk drives, dot matrix printers, etc) so people can experience what it was like to actually use these machines. 4) A restoration gallery, where people can see old computers on the workbench, and restoration/repair techniques. Displays on the walls could show exploded or cutaway views of disk drives, joysticks, printers, etc. and explain the technology thay was used in these machines. Then, there would be the vault, with retina and handprint scanner, that only lets me in to play with my favourite machines. If there's anyone in Western Canada who would like to collaborate on building such a museum (or just dream about it) please contact me off-list. I'd like to get a ClassicComp club for Western Canada off the ground, and maybe even plan for VCF North in ? 2002 ?. Cheers, Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 20:14:21 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <395A9BBA.D8916E94@inc.net> from "Ryan K. Brooks" at Jun 28, 2000 07:43:38 PM Message-ID: <200006290114.SAA18211@shell1.aracnet.com> > I realize that VMS is the one true OS for VAXen... But let's say I was in a mood to > run a *BSD... what's a good, neat looking, older, classic VAX that at least has > ethernet and scsi easily available and supported? > > R Hmmm, a good, neat looking VAX??? That's a rough requirement when coupled with easily available SCSI. Easily available SCSI basically means a 3100 or 4000 series. However, I'll be the first to say that they're not very atractive. The following page might help you some with your decission: http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html The one column will tell you which models have built in SCSI. If you can get a MicroVAX 3200/3300/3400/3500/3600/3700/3800/3900 with a SCSI interface in a BA213 Pedistal (or the other pedistal, but not the BA23 or BA123) then you'd probably have a really cool looking system (at least I think they're cool looking). Having said this, of the Q-Bus systems my favorite chassis is the BA123, but it basically looks like a big box. You know... the VAXstation 4000/VLC is now listed as supporting NetBSD as of V1.5, and it's a neat *little* box. It's very limited, and you can only stuff 24MB of RAM and a 1" high 3.5" Hard Drive in it, but it's got SCSI and Ethernet, and is reasonably fast. I got one recently for a portable VMS box, and rather like it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 20:18:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <14682.39957.64687.293219@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 28, 2000 08:45:09 PM Message-ID: <200006290118.SAA18670@shell1.aracnet.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 28, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Not too bad, actually, as long as you don't try to run RA-series > disks on it. Depends on the RA-series disks I'd think. I'm running RA72's and RA73's on my MicroVAX 3. I've also got some RA92's, that I'd probably use if I had someplace to set them up. I'd rather not run RA60's or RA8x's :^) The add on eBay mentioned that the seller would toss in a RA92. Zane From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 28 20:29:09 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <20000628185651.E10437@mrbill.net> References: <001001bfe146$e8e53900$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:22:06PM -0400 Message-ID: <395A6015.30381.1F23C22@localhost> On 28 Jun 2000, at 18:56, Bill Bradford wrote: > No computer flooring, but I'm going to bolt a couple of racks directly > to the concrete floor, and put in a BIG window AC unit, so I can > comfortably work out there in the middle of the summer here in Texas > (its been 95+F here for the past 2-3 weeks..) Oh, that's right, it's summer in Texas now. And I thought it was hot in Houston because I had so many computers running at once. :-) I always wanted a two story room where the second story was a balconey running along all four walls with a spiral stair case in one corner. The downstairs would have all my systems set up to play with and the upstairs part would be lined with bookshelves for manuels, books, etc. That's the basic idea anyway. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 28 20:34:35 2000 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer exhibit [Was: Re: Your dream computer room] References: <01eb01bfe165$603e37e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <00bf01bfe16a$2f280c80$a33c7c18@lawrence.ks.us> Hmm almost like my basement. 100 systems and counting. 16 up and running at any one time. it's not beautiful, but it is functional. I really need to get it cleaned up for company some day. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Gregory" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:00 PM Subject: Your dream computer exhibit [Was: Re: Your dream computer room] > I've always envisioned at least four rooms for my museum: > > 1) a static display hall, with a variety of shelves extending out from the > walls, holding a variety of micros with monitors/TVs. The computers would > be running random demos (e.g. the Juggler or the Boing ball, for > Amigaphiles) or programs. The aim is to provoke a "Wow!" reaction at the > sheer variety of shapes, sizes, and colours of cases, monitors, and > graphics. > > 2) A "period" gallery, where examples of important computers are shown in > their natural habitat. e.g. a TI-99/4A with cassette recorder and wired > remote controllers would be connected to a TV in a recreation of an early > 80s rec. room, complete with red carpet, photoprinted wood panelling, > Farrah Fawcett poster, and battered 60's Formica and steel furniture. > > 3) A "hands-on" arcade or exhibit, where relatively "expendable" common > computers (e.g. C-64, TI-99/4A, Atari 800XL) are set up with a variety of > games carts and business software (complete with tape drives, disk drives, > dot matrix printers, etc) so people can experience what it was like to > actually use these machines. > > 4) A restoration gallery, where people can see old computers on the > workbench, and restoration/repair techniques. Displays on the walls could > show exploded or cutaway views of disk drives, joysticks, printers, etc. > and explain the technology thay was used in these machines. > > Then, there would be the vault, with retina and handprint scanner, that > only lets me in to play with my favourite machines. > > If there's anyone in Western Canada who would like to collaborate on > building such a museum (or just dream about it) please contact me off-list. > I'd like to get a ClassicComp club for Western Canada off the ground, and > maybe even plan for VCF North in ? 2002 ?. > > Cheers, > Mark From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 20:42:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing Message-ID: <20000629014246.25985.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Zane. You wimp. An 8350 is a fairly friendly BIbus system. > > Yep, in this case feel free to call me a wimp. I've seen pieces of a 8350, > I really don't want to mess with something that big, and slow unless it's > a 11/780. The 8350 CPU is 10.5" tall, 3' deep and fits in a standard 19" rack. You typically see them in a 42" rack because the bottom is filled with room for cables and I/O bulkheads. I have an 8300 - same thing but with slower CPUs. Yes... CPUs... the 8200/8250 is a single CPU box (slow/fast), the 8300/8350s are slow and fast dual boxes. You can expand an 82x0 to an 83x0 as long as the firmware/microcode is the same on both CPU boards. This can be done in the field (which is how my 8200 was bumped up to an 8300) Fun little box. My employer paid $12,000 for mine in 1989. I got to haul it away for free five years later (w/RA-81, etc.) At the moment it has an MBA ESDI<->SDI box on it with 2.4Gb of 5.25" disks in a tray that's half the size and 1/8th the weight of the RA-81. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 20:43:35 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628155458.26200c5f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in the > public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system > software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public > domain), but also of user-group collections of software for > these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous > generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc. I might think could be out of luck. It seems that most IBM software (except for S/34, 36, and 38 stuff) goes away very quickly. I have a feeling IBM itself has something to do with this. If RCS/RI ever come across any, we will let you know. Likewise, if the few 3348 disk cartridges I have (REAL WInchesters!) still have good data, you can have that S/3 stuff (CCP01 and stuff), if it is in the public domain. Also, lets face it - IBM just doesn't have the prestige that DEC stuff does in the hacker world. I bet many IBM tapes and such were thrown away by the hackers themselves. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 20:43:47 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Available: RL02K-DC disk pack Message-ID: <20000629014347.1209.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody have a use for an RL02K-DC disk pack? In original box, even. > > I had intended to make it into a clock, but the shock meter isnt red > yet, and it would be a sin to destory a still-usable piece of > no-longer-made media... What's on it? I have enough blanks, but sometimes you can find interesting things on used packs, especially if it was a former distribution pack (I have at least one RSX-11 pack set) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From ryan at inc.net Wed Jun 28 20:51:11 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing References: <200006290114.SAA18211@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <395AAB8F.BC6BA5E7@inc.net> > > > Hmmm, a good, neat looking VAX??? That's a rough requirement when coupled > with easily available SCSI. Easily available SCSI basically means a 3100 or > 4000 series. However, I'll be the first to say that they're not very > atractive. > > The following page might help you some with your decission: > http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html Thanks for the link. I'm reading it now. To elaborate, I'm not saying I require that it has built in SCSI, but I want to be able to at least find & buy a SCSI interface for it. As long as I can get it in to my basement, and I can get it on my LAN and powered up, and NetBSD installed, I'll be happy. The weirder the h/w the better :-). Still pissed about getting kicked off the VAX Cluster at college, years ago I suppose, -R From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 20:46:05 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We can discuss this for ever and never agree on who's right!. Cats vs. Dogs, Chicken vs Egg. OK, I think this thread has pretty much run its course (maybe a little too much), so lets get on with other things. > I hope my comments are not being taken as flames -- this is not my > intention at all (although I am somewhat tired at the moment and probably > shouldn't be posting...). No flame. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 28 21:01:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <395AAB8F.BC6BA5E7@inc.net> from "Ryan K. Brooks" at Jun 28, 2000 08:51:11 PM Message-ID: <200006290201.TAA22576@shell1.aracnet.com> > Thanks for the link. I'm reading it now. > > To elaborate, I'm not saying I require that it has built in SCSI, but I want to be able > to at least find & buy a SCSI interface for it. > > As long as I can get it in to my basement, and I can get it on my LAN and powered up, and > NetBSD installed, I'll be happy. The weirder the h/w the better :-). > > Still pissed about getting kicked off the VAX Cluster at college, years ago I suppose, Well, any Q-Bus system can have a SCSI interface, BUT they're likely to cost in the $300-1000 range, unless you're lucky enough to get one with the system. BTW, that $1400 MicroVAX II with a SCSI interface on eBay is WAY overpriced. Zane From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 28 21:05:43 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000628220543.26200ce2@trailing-edge.com> William Doznelli wrote: >Tim Shoppa wrote: >> Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in the >> public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system >> software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public >> domain), but also of user-group collections of software for >> these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous >> generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc. >I might think could be out of luck. It seems that most IBM software >(except for S/34, 36, and 38 stuff) goes away very quickly. I have a >feeling IBM itself has something to do with this. There must've been an (or several) IBM "Big Iron" users groups at one point. Didn't they have a library of public-domain software they shared? I *do* realize that the entire IBM "Big Iron" philosophy is very different than, say, the DEC minicomputer or CP/M microcomputer philosophies, but still it's hard for me to imagine that there were *Zero* user group software libraries. >If RCS/RI ever come across any, we will let you know. Wasn't there supposed to be a RCS/RI trip to rescue a lot of old "big iron" stuff from a former IBM field service type? Did he have any OS distributions or field-service diagnostics among that stuff? Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 28 19:52:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <003101bfe167$77e5c050$6d64c0d0@ajp166> From: Tony Duell >Anyway, the IBM Incompatibles that I've got include : >Sanyo MBC555 >DEC Rainbow >HP150 >HP110+ >Sirius (Victor 9000) >IBM PCjr (sort-of. It'll boot standard PC-DOS, but quite a lot of standard >software won't run). >FTS-88 (I've never seen MS-DOS for it, only CP/M 86, but it's an 8088 box). You forgot the Vaxmate a 286 box that was mildly PC. >> Honestly, I have no desire for an altair/imsai/apple 1, so as long as those >> are "fashionable" and little else, I won't shed a tear over it. If, > >I, too, have little desire to own any of those. I have the altair, what junk. I do have a buch of other first machines of the SBC fame. Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 21:52:18 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Since we're on the topic of collections, I have this question: How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you make to stay in their good graces? Myself, I have the aforementioned 2-car garage, plus we have an "agreement" that for any "big" item, I have to get rid of an equivalent amount of stuff, whether it be modern or old. My SO just about throttled me when I mentioned "yeah, I picked up a couple more machines over the weekend" when I picked her up at the airport after a weekend trip a couple of years ago. She didnt quite think that the 35+ Sun SS1s, 3/80s, 3/50s, 3/60s, keyboards, and monitors, in piles in the living room, were a "couple" like I did. 8-) Of course, I lived in a 1/1 apartment at the time, so she was placated when I sold off most of the systems and bought her a leather jacket instead. Bill ("No, honey, please ignore the semi trailer and the forklift backing up to the garage...") -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 28 22:17:00 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: <000628220543.26200ce2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Wasn't there supposed to be a RCS/RI trip to rescue a lot of old "big iron" > stuff from a former IBM field service type? Did he have any OS distributions > or field-service diagnostics among that stuff? RSC/RI and RICM fetched a lot of consoles, modems, terminals, and the like, plus lots of parts, and about 800 pounds of docs. But no software. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 28 22:32:55 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <395A7D17.17208.26392C9@localhost> On 28 Jun 2000, at 21:52, Bill Bradford wrote: > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? Mine is pretty cool with it. At first she thought it was a bit crazy but now she even helps find systems I may be interested in and sometimes suggests we go out on the weekend looking for systems. She even sort of liked the idea of having something like a PDP-11 around, thought it was neat. Of course this is the woman who wanted, and got, a stand up Centipede's video game for her birthday about 10 - 15 years ago. I use to think her "lack of flak" over my collection was due to me making an extra effort to do special things for her but she tells me that she learned long ago to pick her battles and when it comes to the computers, that was one battle she decided it wasn't worth fighting. And all my work with computers over the years has paid the bills so she figures it was worth it. Of course, I still think doing something special for her in return now and then helps too. ;-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Jun 28 23:27:41 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: A good question. I get to procure my computer hardware with minimal complaints, and she gets to accquire garden/house decorations with minimal complaints from me, subject to the sensible limits of our budget. This gets quite difficult for me since my appreciation of household decorations diminishes are their price increases. This phenomenon does not carry over as readily to computer gadgetry. Lately there has been a bit of an imbalance as the price some of the items on my wish list have inflated to the point where I don't purchase them... As for time, if I feel my quality time usage is out of balance I agree readily to proposals for alternate quality time. This often seems to involve trips to the inlaws. If my seven year old wants to read a story or go to the park generally I am there whether I have dedicated lots of time to my hobby or not. I review these techniques frequently since my implementation is sometimes less than perfect. Paul On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Bill Bradford wrote: > Since we're on the topic of collections, I have this question: > > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? > From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 28 23:33:07 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: MORE dec stuff available! Message-ID: <20000628233306.P10437@mrbill.net> I'm lucky enough to be the recipient of a large collection of PDP-11 and VAX stuff from an awesome guy in Houston, and I just finished unloading Haul #1 (with at least four more to go) from my truck, where its been for a week due to being busy with other things. Some of this is available to good homes (on a trade-for-other-stuff basis), but first, I have to brag, and everyone loves pictures: VMS 4.x "Orange Wall": ---------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/orange-wall.jpg PDP 11/02 in BA11-VA chassis: ----------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-front.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-front-logo-closeup.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-back.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-back-closeup-1.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/pdp-back-closeup-2.jpg Dual Zenith RX-01 compatible 8" floppy drives (attached to PDP-11): ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/eight-inch-floppys-front.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/eight-inch-floppys-switches.jpg Now, the stuff that I need to ID and is available for trade for other PDP/DEC/VAX stuff: A power supply and card cage/backplane: --------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/backplane-and-powersupply.jpg (labels on the power supply:) http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-label-1.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-label-2.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-label-3.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/ps-plate.jpg A really big-ass ventilation fan, and DEC box it came in: --------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/spareparts-fan.jpg A front panel/bulkhead/key switch of some kind; I dunno if this goes with the 11/02 above: --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/frontpanel-switches.jpg http://www.pdp11.org/pics/frontpanel-switches-pcb.jpg Finally, a box of five TU-58 DECtape IIs: ----------------------------------------- http://www.pdp11.org/pics/spareparts-dectapes.jpg Two of the DECtapes are labeled: BE-t493F-DE 000MUB2580 HSC50 OFFLINE TAPE V390 copr(C) 1983,89 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. The other three are still new in shrinkwrap. If anybody has a use for the card cage, power supply, backplane, fan, front switchpanel, or DECtapes, please let me know. Since I was given this stuff, I dont want to sell it - but I would like to trade it for other DEC stuff. Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Jun 28 23:51:13 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: MORE dec stuff available! In-Reply-To: <20000628233306.P10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <395A8F71.6197.2AB45F2@localhost> Cool stuff. Congrats.... hey, wait a second... Houston? Hey leave the PDP-11 & VAX stuff in Houston!! There's enough stuff up in Austin! Now I'm going to have to come up there and "raid" Austin. :-) On 28 Jun 2000, at 23:33, Bill Bradford wrote: > I'm lucky enough to be the recipient of a large collection of PDP-11 > and VAX stuff from an awesome guy in Houston, and I just finished ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From phil at ultimate.com Thu Jun 29 00:28:49 2000 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Paul Allen's TOAD (was: Re: MicroPDP-11/73 Goes to Evil Lurke r) Message-ID: <200006290528.BAA13543@ultimate.com> > Commands Manual (this is the heavier paper version, not the "phone > book" styled pub) Let me know when you put it up for auction. I've always wanted one! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 28 23:36:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >Since we're on the topic of collections, I have this question: > >How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if >you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you >make to stay in their good graces? Uneasy truce has a nice ring to it. Thoroughly disgusted, but recognizes this is clearly a sickness, phase, etc. that defies rational treatment. Major thinning of my collection hovers like a big wasp, with big pieces starting to go very soon. Seriously, major major clearance list for my garage coming soon. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 29 02:34:04 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: Bill Bradford "the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse" (Jun 28, 21:52) References: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <10006290834.ZM3882@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 21:52, Bill Bradford wrote: > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? Concessions? She took the rest of the garage and all of the extension :-) We have a deal: I don't ask her to mend my computers, and she doesn't ask me to help in the garden or the allotment she recently took on :-) Well that was the original deal, but occasionally I do help -- if there are paving slabs to move, or wood to be sawn. Liz is into gardening and computers rather like I'm into computers and gardening, so the utility room is also a garden store. I like to sit in the garden and she likes the convenience of email. So apart from the SGI Indigo on her desk, computers are restricted to the computer room (garage) and my office, and the network (especially Internet access for the web and email), printers and tech support will be available whenever required. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 06:46:19 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC2@TEGNTSERVER> [..snip..] > Anyway, the IBM Incompatibles that I've got include : > Sirius (Victor 9000) ??? I remember Victor going through lots of trouble before it disappeared; did it in fact get revived for a while as Sirius? Or was Sirius another company, buying V9000s and rebadging them? A Victor 9000 is one of the few PC-alikes I intend on adding to my collection; a Tandy 2000 would be another. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 06:50:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC3@TEGNTSERVER> > > > Ok. Let's start a fun thread for a change. Who among us didn't > spend some time with paper and crayon as a child designing the ideal > "fort"? What kind of computer shop would you build given sufficient > time/money/space? My erstwhile "partner" in embedded systems projects during the early 90s had rented space from an electrical repair firm; the building was a former post office. He had about a room of about 500 sq. ft., with 3-phase power and a raised floor. This would be my ideal; most ideal about it is that it would be somewhere other than inside my home. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 07:36:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC8@TEGNTSERVER> > There must've been an (or several) IBM "Big Iron" users groups at > one point. Didn't they have a library of public-domain software they > shared? Yes... IIRC, wasn't it called S.H.A.R.E.? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 07:42:39 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Without getting the entire "Preserve vs. Restore" argument started again, has anyone ever found a way to restore the original beige color to plastic skins that have discolored due to long exposure to UV? I'm assuming what's happening is more than just the lighter elements of the plastic evaporating, but rather that some kind of chemical change is taking place that likely can't be reversed. I would think paint to not be a solution; at least not for me, as it always takes better hand/eye coordination than I can manage. How about dyes? Has anyone tried some kind of analine dye to restore beige plastic? Dyes spread more evenly and I think can even penetrate perhaps a few microns. thanks, -doug quebbeman From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 29 08:06:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? Message-ID: <000629090634.26200cd2@trailing-edge.com> >> There must've been an (or several) IBM "Big Iron" users groups at >> one point. Didn't they have a library of public-domain software they >> shared? >Yes... IIRC, wasn't it called S.H.A.R.E.? Yes, SHARE still exists, but its online archives only extend back to 1997 and you have to fork over $250.00 and have an IBM mainframe and be approved by their membership committee just to view the archives. See http://www.share.org/ for more information... It's also unfortunate that SHARE's bylaws prohibit anyone other than SHARE from distributing their collected software. I was looking for public-domain OS/360 stuff, but maybe William's right: It just doesn't exist, and if it does exist, they don't want you to find it! Tim. From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 29 08:29:41 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <200006291329.JAA12272@world.std.com> My SO and I have two condos... we live at one and my computers lived at the other. We had an agreement that if anything new came in, something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little while. Well, we now have a storage area (10x20) and much of my collection has moved to storage (we're hoping to sell both condos and get a house -- *with a garage and/or basement* for my collection). Now that I have the storage place, I can get a little more stuff without having to let something go... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 08:35:13 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Univac browsers (Letterman 28-June-2000) In-Reply-To: <000629090634.26200cd2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000301bfe1ce$db32b7f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Just a tidbit. David Letterman, who likes joking on just about everything, especially his not exactly being with the times, started talking last night about the computer he just started playing with just recently. 'I got a Univac (pause) Gotta get on a stepladder to use it.' From vaxman at uswest.net Thu Jun 29 08:39:16 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: Hi Doug, I aways run plastic parts through the dishwasher first. It performed miracles on my Apple ]['s. Second, try soaking a throw-away (broken) in bleach. Fill up a laundry tub with water, dump in a gallon or more of bleach, and let it soak. The cheap plastic jobs at local home repair stores (Home Depot, Eagle, Lowes, etc) work well, and don't really need plumbing connections. If that doesn't work, I'm interested in knowing your luck with dying the items. The laundry tub would work well for that too :) clint On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Without getting the entire "Preserve vs. Restore" argument > started again, has anyone ever found a way to restore the > original beige color to plastic skins that have discolored > due to long exposure to UV? > > I'm assuming what's happening is more than just the lighter > elements of the plastic evaporating, but rather that some > kind of chemical change is taking place that likely can't > be reversed. > > I would think paint to not be a solution; at least not for > me, as it always takes better hand/eye coordination than I > can manage. > > How about dyes? Has anyone tried some kind of analine dye > to restore beige plastic? Dyes spread more evenly and I > think can even penetrate perhaps a few microns. > > thanks, > -doug quebbeman > > > > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 29 08:49:29 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:06 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse References: <20000628215218.L10437@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <395B53E9.2039EBF4@mainecoon.com> Bill Bradford wrote: > How does your significant other/spouse deal with your hobby, if > you have one (a SO, not a hobby), and what "concessions" do you > make to stay in their good graces? Jen is of the opinion that, considering the universe of other possible vices and weaknesses that I could have selected from, this one, while perhaps a bit peculiar, is better than most. She's also suffered through my other hobbies -- cars, aviation, brewing and glass audio -- so she's already had a chance to perfect setting limits. I also don't fence her off from these activities but rather allow her to get involved to whatever level she chooses. Consequently she's become a pilot in her own right, is always there on brew day and while she's not going to be wiring up 211s anytime soon she enjoys the sound of glass and is always there to tell me how much she likes -- or dislikes -- my latest dabblings in analog. Her rules are few but hard: - This stuff has to remain confined to designated areas, which translates as rented storage, the garage and my office. Nothing can be stacked outside and the garage has to, in general, remain functional for at least one car. It is, however, possible to get a day pass to use the kitchen or the wash rack area in back in order to clean stuff. - It's a hobby, which means that it generally has to live somewhere below home and yard maintenance tasks in the priority scheme. - I'm allowed to spend significant sums in support of this (and other) hobbies, but it's factored into the overall scheme of things. If I get a new machine, she gets a new dress for her collection of Victorian clothing. If I get a new piece of test equipment she gets something for *her* lab (yesterday it was a power tree limber for her silvaculture lab). And before I buy that 5000 sq ft shop building down the road we have to tack on the new addition and buy an airplane. - I have to stay focused, especially since the trip she took with me to Marvin's place (Marvin has a collection to die for, but Jen made it clear that if mine ever became that large that she'd have me committed). All in all she's incredibly supportive of all the weird things that I do. I think part of her would prefer it if I hadn't selected *another* hobby which involves big, heavy, hard-to-move things, but it gives her fodder for when she wants to give me a good natured hard time ;-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 09:38:34 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <000701bfe1d7$cc0f3470$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Just did this recently. Used Ajax Chlorine Scouring powder, without any scouring per se. Had a severly discolored VT240, realy unpresentable, sort of dark sunburned yellow. I fingerpainted on a paste of the Ajax, made pasty so it wouldn't drip anywhere it shouldn't and rubbed and waited. Add a little water if its too dry. Sponge off with a damp paper towel (again, so that water will not run out). The first sponging took off what appeared to be paint really thick plasticy stuff, with a lot of the color in it. Repeat sponging until no residue (3-4 passes). Took it down from "gross" to "slightly aged". Colors as remembered: Before: R 240 G 200 B 0 After: R 255 G 230 B 160 John A. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 29 10:34:41 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <20000629153441.68894.qmail@hotmail.com> Well... It would be an entire building, I like Marvin's 10,000 sq ft. minimum, as for the fire protection, I'd for sure want halon or something similar, i.e. NO water! A raised floor of course, but with twice the normal height under the floor. Also, a basement area containing some massive transformers (so I could get 440 volt power), and diesel generators in the event of power failure. There would also be room for a water cooling system, in the event I ever get lucky enough to own an IBM 3033 or other water-cooled machine. Central air is a must, I'd require it to be a positive air flow environent, meeting mil specs. Definetly climate-controlled, I like the fireproof room for docs and software idea, also a seperate room for spare boards and misc stuff. It would have to have an area for disk pack storage too. Another seperate workshop-type room, with logic analyzer, scope, etc. Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. Hell, why not my own substation? Also, a loading dock at semi height would be good, and there would be a nice long sloped ramp too. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 29 10:55:39 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <20000629153441.68894.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds like that off-shore drilling platform we have been hearing about I've made a start on mine. I just bought a house on a community airstrip and it has a 1200 sq ft hangar. I don't have a plane yet so here is the plan. 1. Move collection into the hangar. - DONE 2. Move into the house - This weekend 3. Start planning for remodel to include second story over garage and hangar. - Planning 4. Organize collection in hangar. Take inventory for the first time. 5. Weed out stuff that doesn't fit with collection. Offer orphans to this group for cost of shipping . (No big iron here) 6. Remodel (Start purging exccess inventory) 7. Move Collection into allocated area of remodel. 8. Start shopping for airplane now that computers have a new home. Probably a 10 year plan but at least the collection is dry and protected. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Well... > It would be an entire building, I like Marvin's 10,000 sq ft. minimum, as > for the fire protection, I'd for sure want halon or something similar, i.e. > NO water! A raised floor of course, but with twice the normal height under > the floor. Also, a basement area containing some massive transformers (so I > could get 440 volt power), and diesel generators in the event of power > failure. There would also be room for a water cooling system, in the event I > ever get lucky enough to own an IBM 3033 or other water-cooled machine. > Central air is a must, I'd require it to be a positive air flow environent, > meeting mil specs. Definetly climate-controlled, I like the fireproof room > for docs and software idea, also a seperate room for spare boards and misc > stuff. It would have to have an area for disk pack storage too. Another > seperate workshop-type room, with logic analyzer, scope, etc. Also, multiple > humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. Hell, why not my own substation? > Also, a loading dock at semi height would be good, and there would be a nice > long sloped ramp too. > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 11:06:23 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAECE@TEGNTSERVER> > Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. > Hell, why not my own substation? Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to have all the electricity you need plus generate your own fuel for future use! Hey, the original post did say "Dream", didn't it? 8D From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 29 11:25:32 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAECE@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: OK... If you want to dream.... Lets put it on the moon so all that stuff is easier to lug around. Oh .. Serious dreams... that is different. I think I see two classes of rooms here with their own unique requirements. 1. Microcomputer room.... No special power, floor, or environmental requirments 2. Big Iron room. Raised floor, 220Volt power, Big Aircon, and somebody real generous to pay the power bill. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. > > Hell, why not my own substation? > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > own fuel for future use! > > Hey, the original post did say "Dream", didn't it? > > 8D > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 29 11:35:22 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > Without getting the entire "Preserve vs. Restore" argument > started again, has anyone ever found a way to restore the > original beige color to plastic skins that have discolored > due to long exposure to UV? It can not be restored. On the Boatanchors list some time ago, there was a very detail post about why plastics yellow. > I'm assuming what's happening is more than just the lighter > elements of the plastic evaporating, but rather that some > kind of chemical change is taking place that likely can't > be reversed. Correct. Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too aggressive). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Jun 29 11:40:53 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: > We had an agreement that if anything new came in, > something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little > while. I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old "stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/1fdc52d9/attachment-0001.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 11:58:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <000701bfe1d7$cc0f3470$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >Had a severly discolored VT240, realy unpresentable, >sort of dark sunburned yellow. I fingerpainted on a >paste of the Ajax, made pasty so it wouldn't drip >anywhere it shouldn't and rubbed and waited. Add a >little water if its too dry. Sponge off with a damp >paper towel (again, so that water will not run out). >The first sponging took off what appeared to be paint >really thick plasticy stuff, with a lot of the color >in it. Repeat sponging until no residue (3-4 passes). >Took it down from "gross" to "slightly aged". I'm not sure what the colours you pasted on at the end looked like, but this sounds more like Nicotine discolouration from being around a cigarette smoker. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 12:14:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED2@TEGNTSERVER> ROFL!!! -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steverob@hotoffice.com] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:41 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse > We had an agreement that if anything new came in, > something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little > while. I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old "stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Steve Robertson From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 12:24:23 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: A-1 Rating for Meyers Computer Services Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED3@TEGNTSERVER> Meyers Computer Services is an A-1 operation, so I can heartily recommend them if you ever want to do business with them. You may recall my post about a drive I bought on haggle. The drive in question arrived sans three SMD chips from the interface PCB, and would not spin up. The replacement arrived very quickly even though I told them to save money and go slow-boat-to-China with it. The replacement has the chips that were missing from the first one. I haven't tried it yet, but I already told them no big deal if it doesn't work. There are apparently a ton of these flooding the surplus market right now, and I've got another coming from another source (for less than this one cost), so I'm as happy as a pig in shiwhroishafowehfofhaew;fhawef -doug q From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 29 12:50:09 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: Message-ID: <20000629174505.1162.qmail@hotmail.com> A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are cooler than a raised floor :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rachor" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:25 PM Subject: RE: Your dream computer room. > OK... If you want to dream.... > Lets put it on the moon so all that stuff is easier to lug around. > > Oh .. Serious dreams... that is different. > > I think I see two classes of rooms here with their own unique > requirements. > > 1. Microcomputer room.... No special power, floor, or environmental > requirments > > 2. Big Iron room. Raised floor, 220Volt power, Big Aircon, and somebody > real generous to pay the power bill. > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Also, multiple humongous 3-phase UPS's, just in case. > > > Hell, why not my own substation? > > > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > > own fuel for future use! > > > > Hey, the original post did say "Dream", didn't it? > > > > 8D > > > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 12:46:54 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701bfe1f2$05dedc90$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Zane > I'm not sure what the colours you pasted... This is a one line web page you can create and view locally. > ...looked like, but this sounds more like Nicotine > discolouration from being around a cigarette smoker. Possibly. It did smell a hell of alot like paint when it came off, but showed no dropletting patterns (was as even as the original finish), tended to be on the top surfaces (as if from Sun or a precipitation) didn't look smoky or carbon-like, didn't smell like cigarette Smoke at least. Does this sound like Nicotine? My guess if it wasn't sunburn is perhaps a fine oil from some kind of manufacturing, it really bound on to that plastic. John A. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 29 12:53:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED2@TEGNTSERVER> (message from Douglas Quebbeman on Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:14:20 -0400) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000629175300.26272.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old > "stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Live alone? How can you bear not to be surrounded by old computers? :-) From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 29 12:56:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <20000629174505.1162.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A > big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are > cooler than a raised floor :) You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 29 13:12:24 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Old house had overhead wire without the raceway... We spent some bucks on the house house and Buried Cat 5, telephone, and Video within most walls of the structure. The bet is on to see how long it takes to need more wire strung. I'm hoping this is measured in months or years and not days or weeks. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A > > big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are > > cooler than a raised floor :) > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From transit at lerctr.org Thu Jun 29 13:20:55 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Acquiring, playing with, and living with classic computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, let's see: Right now I have the following * Dining room table (Computer Lab): A Mac LC II, a Mac LC III, an Amiga 2000, a Commodore 128D, and a Coco 3. All work * Studio (bedroom table): An Apple IIe (connected to an AlphaSyntauri synthesizer), an Amiga 1000 with 2 Mb memory expansion, and a TI99/4A, with Corcomp disk drive/rs232/32k expansion. All work. * Electronics lab (bedroom desk): An Atari 800 (works, but dodgy keyboard), a Commodore 128 (works), and a Coco2 (works). Also a TRS80 Model 100 (works) * Storage (closet): An Apple IIe (works, just no really good place to put it), 2 Dell 486s (both work), a BBC Model B (I think it works, but may have been damaged in a flood, haven't tested it), a Leading Edge Model D (works), a no-name 286 (works) and a no-name 8088 PC (no longer boots from the hard drive). Also some odd bits here and there (a Matell Aquarius, a Spectravideo 128, and a NEC something-or-other... don't know if any of those work) Most of this stuff I got from the local swap meets (TRW in Redondo Beach and the like). Occasionally I'll get lucky at a thrift shop, but not often (mostly broken 286's they want too much for) I've bought stuff on Ebay and usenet, although shipping (especially CPU's and heavy stuff) is expensive and can be problematic. I tend to prefer using them for small peripherals and software items. I don't really spend all that much...maybe up to $20/cpu at a swap meet, Ebay, etc. A lot of stuff I've even got for free, or just for shipping costs. Time to play with all this stuff: Is not in abundance. I have a long commute and very little home time, which must be divided among other pursuits (music, ham radio, etc.) So right now, I'm more in acquisition mode, looking for peripherals and software for these machines. Currently, I am unmarried and live alone, so no need to worry about what other people might think. My folks thought I was wierd for collecting all these old machines....but now they collect old Macs! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 13:22:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED5@TEGNTSERVER> > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass > > room dividers. A big control room like in wargames. And > > I think overhead wiring raceways are cooler than a raised floor :) > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? Oh, they're great if you like your cables getting sliced up as you pull them through; pulling the raceway tops off (the alternative) is no fun either. -dq From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 13:23:46 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001c01bfe1f7$29916770$350810ac@chipware.com> Here's something I dreamed up a while ago: A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain driven circular elevator. I got the idea from some pictures of a car parking facility. The shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart which could then take it to a workstation where it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of clearance between shelves and the whole system being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, demo or work on. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 29 13:28:41 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: RE: Your dream computer room. (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED5@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <14683.38233.544796.553439@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 29, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass > > > room dividers. A big control room like in wargames. And > > > I think overhead wiring raceways are cooler than a raised floor :) > > > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > Oh, they're great if you like your cables getting sliced > up as you pull them through; pulling the raceway tops off > (the alternative) is no fun either. I work with them every day and don't have such problems. I rather like 'em. The ones I use are made by Newton...might wanna check 'em out. -Dave McGuire From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 13:47:39 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED7@TEGNTSERVER> > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > some pictures of a car parking facility. The > shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart > which could then take it to a workstation where > it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of > clearance between shelves and the whole system > being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) > so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, > demo or work on. Sounds just like a White Data Systems Vertical Carousel... never got to work with one of those, but I wrote lots of code to move the WDS Horizontal Carousels back in the 80s... -doug q From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 29 13:54:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: References: <20000629174505.1162.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000629114020.027e3d50@208.226.86.10> Pretty topical subject, and much nicer than some. :-) I live in California and one of the things builders never seem to do here is build basements. Sure, there is the occasional one, but they are quite rare. Given the astronomical price of housing (we have some new houses being built at the end of our street) they _still_ don't put in a basement but have "zero lot line" setbacks where the house basically fills the lot. Weird. Anyway, my "dream" room starts with me putting in a full basement. One of the questions I haven't answered yet is if setback rules apply to underground structures (can I build a basement the size of my lot and then cover it up and put the house on top of it?) I know I could dig a basement that had the same outline as the outside of the house. That's probably close to 1400 sq'. I would divide this into three rooms (actually four if you count the replaced garage that would be twice as deep as the current garage making it a "four car" garage rather than a three car garage. There would be a library with "folding" stacks (to hold lots of books), an office to hold workstations and terminals (hopefully a bit more quiet than having a PDP-8/E howling at you :-) and a Machine room with the new 'semi' raised floor (4" height) +------------+-------------------+ | | | | | | | | Library | | M | | | A | | | C +------- ---------+ | H | Garage/Shop area | I | N | E | | +------ ----------+ | R | | | O | | | O | Office | | M | | | | | +------------+-------------------+ The driveway would slope down so it would be easy to get big iron "in" to this arrangement :-) [I'd love to get rid of it dear but I can't see how to get it out now :-)] --Chuck From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 29 12:39:26 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <200006290036.RAA14293@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Hi! > > Shoot, my first two VAXen were a VAXstation II/RC and MicroVAX II. I sure My first VAX was a MicroVAX II, and I would recommend it as the first machine. Well, my config just worked and I had nothing to fix, so that's an advantage, too, of course. But I was (and still am) pretty happy with this machine. > wouldn't recommend either as first systems unless they're picked up for > free. If they're still running on MFM disks, you'll probably have a real > headache getting the system running. I love Q-Bus systems, but don't think What's so bad with MFM disks? My MVII is running 4x RD54, and it works just fine! > Um... I saw this on eBay yesterday, and as I read it, it's basically just > the CPU. I'm sorry, I do not consider this a good first system. I If you have to build around with the system, or you have to fix it first, than it's probably not a good choice. Bye, Freddy From Meerwaldt at t-online.de Thu Jun 29 13:46:46 2000 From: Meerwaldt at t-online.de (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! > 2. Big Iron room. Raised floor, 220Volt power, Big Aircon, and somebody > real generous to pay the power bill. The thing with the power bill is a very important point. Just think you have your whole 1200 sq ft full with machines and they're running all the time. You will be in a nice surprise at the end of the year. Bye, Freddy From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 13:54:19 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED8@TEGNTSERVER> > > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > > > Oh, they're great if you like your cables getting sliced > > up as you pull them through; pulling the raceway tops off > > (the alternative) is no fun either. > > I work with them every day and don't have such problems. I rather > like 'em. The ones I use are made by Newton...might wanna check 'em > out. Ho Ho Ho! Last time I pulled cable (raceways amongst others) was in college... somebody else gets all the fun now. Not that I mind work, Hell, I love it, I can watch it all day! -dq From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 14:03:58 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01bfe1fc$c7c1ac70$350810ac@chipware.com> > The thing with the power bill is a very important point. > Just think you have your whole 1200 sq ft full with machines and they're > running all the time. You will be in a nice surprise at the end of the > year. Most US utilities bill on a monthly basis. Still, when I started this thread, I intended a "money is no object", "you've just won the lottery", "blue sky" attitude. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 12:32:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <200006282342.QAA07055@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 28, 0 04:42:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/1d50367c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 13:01:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 28, 0 09:43:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 948 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/3efb0841/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 13:18:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC2@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 29, 0 07:46:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1852 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/89373717/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 13:22:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAECE@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 29, 0 12:06:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/1a587829/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 12:57:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <003101bfe167$77e5c050$6d64c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Jun 28, 0 08:52:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/d2512300/attachment-0001.ksh From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Jun 29 14:21:17 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > The other is the 11/730. Small, slow, but there are only 2 ASICs (Memory > ECC gate arrays IIRC). The rest is AMD bit-slice, PALs, and simple chips. > Would the 11/725 also be a good/equivalent choice? My (possibly flawed) understanding is that the 725 is basically a 730 squeezed into a BA123-style "end-table" box (about the size of a Perq T2 or so). --Pat. From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 14:26:11 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAED7@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <001e01bfe1ff$e1d49a20$350810ac@chipware.com> > > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > > some pictures of a car parking facility. The > > shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart > > which could then take it to a workstation where > > it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of > > clearance between shelves and the whole system > > being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) > > so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, > > demo or work on. > > Sounds just like a White Data Systems Vertical > Carousel... never got to work with one of those, > but I wrote lots of code to move the WDS Horizontal > Carousels back in the 80s... Sigh... Never imagine that you've had an original idea. Well, when I get rich, I won't have to build it from scratch. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 14:42:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> > 8088 CPU clocked at 5MHz > > 128k DRAM on the motherboard > > 4 expansion slots, 50 pins each > > 3 6522 VIAs on the motherboard, for system control functions, the > Printer/GPIB port and the user port > > Sound I/O using a 6852 and a CODEC chip > > A strange video system. There's 2K*16 bits of video RAM, with a 6845 CRT > controller to address it. The output of that partially provides the video > attributes (intensified, etc). But 11 bits are fed to the address lines > of the main DRAM array. This DRAM acts as the character generator and > stores the bitmap patters for the characters. Note that as there are > 2000 characters on an 80*24 screen and 11 bits gives 2048 different > values, it's possible to have a different 'character' displayed at each > screen location, thus allowing a bitmapped display. FWIW, the UK Apricot > computer has a similar video system IIRC, the Victor 9000 was designed by Chuck Peddle, the architect of the 6502 (or maybe it was the 6500) processor. This might account for the Motorola/Mostek chip usage. > 2 full-height 5.25" floppy drives on the front. These are Tandon > mechanims without their logic boards. They're linked to a controller > board that uses essentially the same GCR encoder/decoder as the Commodore > 8050, etc. The drives are variable speed units (!) with an 8048 on the > floppy controller board to control the speed. Thes means the machine > manages to get 500K on a single-sided 80 track floppy disk Not only were they GCR recorded (and I'll probably get this backwards), the drives were run in a Constant Linear Velocity mode, rather than the Constant Angular Velocity mode used by most drives. IIRC, the Mac 400k drives, were also CLV , but weren't GCR. IIRC, later models used some more compatible scheme; speaking of compatibilty, there were two variants of Microsoft BASIC available, one which was either generic or Victor-specific, and another that was IBM compatible. > Software control of the brightness and contrast of the (monochrome) > monitor using 3-bit resistor ladder DACs hung off the system VIA. > > Does that sound like a Victor 9000? Oh, yeah, that's it. The thing I remember most is that the Developer's kit the owner had came with PMATE: Phoenix-Mike Aronson's Text Editor. I pirated it, then when I went to my next fulltime job, they had the CP/M version, which was configurable (using PMATE macros) for different video systems or terminals, so I was able to combine the parts to get a version working on a PC when I went to the _next_ job. Which I used for about 6 months, then I bought a licensed copy, which I still use as my preferred editor to this day. For those that are unfamiliar with PMATE, it's more or less TECO with an incremental redisplay grafted on to it. In other words, EMACS without the LISP. Not quite, but a reasonable comparison. Anybody know anything abut Mike Aronson? Nobody at Phoenix can tell me *anything* about PMATE, and it would be nice to have the source code so I could fix some bugs. -doug q From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 29 14:00:08 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEC9@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: Bleach seems to have "some" effect, but nothing I have tried, and I have tried a long list, has "removed" a yellow sun stain. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 29 14:54:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001c01bfe1f7$29916770$350810ac@chipware.com> References: Message-ID: Generally a couple good outlets (AC and 10bt), some banquet tables, a standing bench height work surface, and a rolling cart make a good start. I don't think I am really going to be happy until I have pallet racks and a forklift though. A typical "industrial" unit, 20x50, with A/C office in front, warehouse in back, with maybe a small fenced "yard" for a truck. The basic problem I have is congestion, buying a load of stuff, and its temporary storage and sorting area spills over into my "working" area until I can't do any testing until moving something, which needs to be moved back. Eventually it reaches a crisis, like now, where my efficiency is reduced to about zip due to all the shifting around. At present our 1850 sq ft condo has; Great garage, full two car sized with a 14 foot ceiling. Just above the garage door and extending completely across the front is a "shelf" about 6 foot deep with 4 to 5 feet open above it (22x6x4.5= 594 ft3). Thats for all my bulky, but not too heavy stuff (the shelf could take a load, but like heck I am going to carry it all up a ladder). 18" deep, 6 and 8 foot RapidRack shelves line the right wall (using the orientation of a parked car). At the nose end are the big shelves, 24"x96"x108", 42"x48"x96", and 36"x48"x72" with one shelf as a standing bench and the shelf above it 12" deep for some test monitors etc. About 75 computers and the bulk of all my misc and parts, with maybe a dozen 20 inch monitors. Poor house, zero computers in master bedroom, or any of the bathrooms. Huge livingroom, maybe 30 computers and 8 monitors in various corners and couches. Kitchen table, 3 on top, 5 under, various compact macs "around". LOTS of books, thousands in the library on shelves, but hundreds in various bags, boxes, and piles. My office is more buried in paper than hardware, but it has a bit of hardware in it too. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 15:06:40 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing Message-ID: <20000629200640.23880.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pat Barron wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The other is the 11/730. Small, slow, but there are only 2 ASICs (Memory > > ECC gate arrays IIRC). The rest is AMD bit-slice, PALs, and simple chips. > > > > Would the 11/725 also be a good/equivalent choice? My (possibly flawed) > understanding is that the 725 is basically a 730 squeezed into a > BA123-style "end-table" box (about the size of a Perq T2 or so). Right... identical CPU, no provisions for external expansion (but you _can_ squeeze a Unibus cable out it if you're careful), RC25 disks - fun but a pain - one motor with two disks; one removable, one fixed, 25Mb each. I used to have an RC25 cart with VMS 5.0 on it, so I know it fits, but I lost it and the machine when the business it was resting at closed with so little warning that I couldn't get it out. :-P The 11/725 case is a bit larger than a BA-123, but the aspect ratio is similar. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 29 15:12:58 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. References: Message-ID: <20000629200753.58736.qmail@hotmail.com> Yes I do. Daily. Maybe you're thinking of a different kind, these are open-air raceways, more like a trussle, they are suspended from the ceiling by about a foot, you can see each cable, and we keep them color-coded so you know which one is going where. It's nice, and looks like something from a villan's lair in a bond movie. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: Re: Your dream computer room. > > A couple of big APC Silicon UPSes, room air conditioner > > (http://www.coolestspot.com/ is REALLY neat) Darkened glass room dividers. A > > big control room like in wargames. And I think overhead wiring raceways are > > cooler than a raised floor :) > > You never worked with overhead raceways, did you? > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 15:14:20 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Frederik Meerwaldt" at Jun 29, 2000 07:39:26 PM Message-ID: <200006292014.NAA24073@shell1.aracnet.com> > What's so bad with MFM disks? My MVII is running 4x RD54, and it works > just fine! It's been my experience that most of the machines of that era that turn up have RD53's, not RD54's. Yes, I know there are a couple people on this list that will probably say that RD53's aren't that bad, but I've got to disagree, especially for a started machine. Plus if the machine has SCSI, it's easier to get a CD-ROM hooked up so the person starting can use the Hobbyist CD. Just for the record. Yes, I hate MFM drives, the the only DEC system I still use them on is a Pro380. My PDP-11/73 is most definitely SCSI! When I've got the space to set up a couple more MVII class systems they'll either be running with SCSI or ESDI. The MV3 is running with RA72's and RA73's. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 15:16:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 29, 2000 06:32:54 PM Message-ID: <200006292016.NAA24335@shell1.aracnet.com> > For a hardware hacker like me, there are only 2 types of VAXen to run at > home. The first is the 11/780 (or 11/785, 11/782) if you've got the > space. It's all chips that I can understand. But they're too large to > fit in my machine room at the moment. > > The other is the 11/730. Small, slow, but there are only 2 ASICs (Memory > ECC gate arrays IIRC). The rest is AMD bit-slice, PALs, and simple chips. > > -tony I'd think a 11/725 would be right up your alley then :^) Isn't it just a tiny 11/730? Except for the reliablity of the VAX-11/725 it looks like a very cool little machine (OK, so it's slow, hardly has any RAM, and can't run a modern OS). Zane From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Jun 29 15:24:44 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Can some HP people help this guy? Message-ID: <395B6A3C.21902.1634D79@localhost> This came in to me but I can't really help him at the moment. I know some of you HP collectors might be able to help. Contact him at the address below. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:55:06 -0400 From: "Richard Rochester" My company has been using an HP9836 to do calculations for a gear shaver sharpening machine. It can no longer be booted up because the main 5.25 drive will no longer read the disk. Do you know of any sources for these machines or parts? We were thinking that we might even be able to rig an external drive that would enable the machine to boot up. I'd appreciate any information you have on the subject. Thanks. Rich Rochester rrochester@getragusa.com ------- End of forwarded message ------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 29 15:24:56 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> (message from Douglas Quebbeman on Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:42:20 -0400) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <20000629202456.28135.qmail@brouhaha.com> > IIRC, the Victor 9000 was designed by Chuck Peddle, the > architect of the 6502 (or maybe it was the 6500) processor. > This might account for the Motorola/Mostek chip usage. Mostek? Where does Mostek come into it? Perhaps you're thinking of MOS Technology, which is *entirely* different. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 14:29:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <001c01bfe1f7$29916770$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > some pictures of a car parking facility. The > shelf at the I/O position could slide onto a cart > which could then take it to a workstation where > it would lock in. I figure about 2 feet of > clearance between shelves and the whole system > being about 50 feet tall (or down into the floor) > so you could have 50 systems easily ready to use, > demo or work on. Such contraptions are already in use in filing systems. I have one machine that stores a few hundred 8" floppy disks in the same manner (that Fred Cisin forced me to take :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 29 15:44:42 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") > is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too > aggressive). Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an artist who's into painting computers? :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 29 15:55:13 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bfe20c$53891180$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/countdown/video/chan12.jpg From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 29 15:55:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDF@TEGNTSERVER> > > IIRC, the Victor 9000 was designed by Chuck Peddle, the > > architect of the 6502 (or maybe it was the 6500) processor. > > This might account for the Motorola/Mostek chip usage. > > Mostek? Where does Mostek come into it? > > Perhaps you're thinking of MOS Technology, which is *entirely* > different. Yup, that's a brain fart that's plagued me since the 80s. -dq From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 29 16:01:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 29, 2000 04:44:42 PM Message-ID: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") > > is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too > > aggressive). > > Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were > sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black > backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, > unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my > collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an > artist who's into painting computers? :-) You know.... I don't know if you're jokeing or not, but.... That could be pretty cool :^) Maybe not for something like my PDP-11/44 mind you (although I kind of like that idea), but it would definitly be a cool idea for a large PC tower case :^) Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 29 16:08:39 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Setasi PEP70/HC43/HC45 cabling Message-ID: <20000629210839.28672.qmail@brouhaha.com> Does anyone here know anything about the Setasi PEP70 memory system for the PDP-11/70? I posted the question below to the PDP-11 list, and got no reply. :-( Eric Can anyone describe the correct cabling between the PEP70, HC43, and HC45 cards (Setasi's memory and cache-replacement cards for the PDP-11/70)? There are four connectors on the PEP70, and two each on the HC43 and HC45. It appears that the topmost PEP70 connector should be cabled to the second from the top on the HC45, and the second PEP70 to the topmost on the HC45. But I have no idea how the two cables between the PEP70 and HC43 should be wired. There would seem to be only two possibilities, but I am loathe to risk damaging anything by using trial and error. Thanks! Eric From r.stek at snet.net Thu Jun 29 16:18:13 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:23 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Your dream computer room. > > > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > > own fuel for future use! > > ... and control it with a ZX81. > There was a little know ZX-81 accessory for this purpose developed in England as an ASIC. It was known as the "fission chip." Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 16:17:52 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:07 2005 Subject: Dibs... In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <001f01bfe20f$7c0655c0$350810ac@chipware.com> I call dibs on ASCI White (when it's decommissioned) :) From bill at chipware.com Thu Jun 29 16:28:46 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001bfe211$0227d6f0$350810ac@chipware.com> > > > Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and > > > install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to > > > have all the electricity you need plus generate your > > > own fuel for future use! > > > > ... and control it with a ZX81. > > > There was a little know ZX-81 accessory for this purpose developed in > England as an ASIC. It was known as the "fission chip." Always delivered wrapped in today's copy of The Times. From r.stek at snet.net Thu Jun 29 16:39:37 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: I don't often make great finds around Hartford, but a local HS had a tag sale, and for $20 I came away with: 2 Mac Plus w/ 2 "long" and 3 "short" keyboards, 1 numeric keypad (less the ')' key), all working 3 matching 20 MB SCSI drives, also working 5 mice for same 1 Mac LC 3 Apple Keyboard II (1 cable, 2 kb's missing 1 key each, and only 1 ADB cord) 1 "limited Edition Woz" IIGS, working 2 Mac 12" RGB Displays, working 1 Apple composite color monitor for the IIGS, working 1 Apple IIe 2 Echo IIb boards & speakers 3 3.5" Apple drives, condition unknown 3 5" Apple drives, condition unknown 2 Heath-Zenith 8088's, from which I scavenged the 2 ST-225 drives (working), 1 working HD controller, 2 5" floppies condition unknown, 2 floppy controllers (ditto), I/O boards, AST combo board, the CPU's and memory chips. AND 1 IBM PC Portable - one of the floppies was not working, so I replaced it with a HD and WD controller from one of the Zeniths - works great! If I had half the space some of you describe, I could have had 20-30 IIe's, monitors, printers, and some 286 PC's. Of course, if I did that I would also have a second ex-wife! Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 29 16:54:36 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Price of our hobby In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:15:47AM -0700 References: <005501bfe126$cc181380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000629145436.A1637@loomcom.com> On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:15:47AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Employers will look at WHEN you graduated form high school, and WHEN you > > graduated from college, and if it's not the standard interval, they'll > > wonder why. They'll wonder why, and hire someone else about whom they have > > no questions to wonder about. They'll wonder whether you were in prison or > > in rehab. They'll wonder why you were different from the norm. > > That's such an old-school frame of mind, Dick. The world doesn't work > like that anymore. Old style thinking like that went out of fashion with > the 80s. > > This is the year 2000. Dinosaurs are extinct. I have to agree. As one who was VERY recently in the job market (as a Java programmer), I was stunned by how much has changed since I entered the working world. Basically, if you're warm, don't drool, and know how to pronounce "Serializable", you will be accepted graciously somewhere -- probably not at your dream job, and definitely not at as high a salary as someone who knows how describe the difference between a static inner class and an anonymous inner class, but you'll at least get a decent entry-level software development job somewhere, making good money. People are DESPERATE for manpower. You can wear jeans to your interview. You can have long hair. You can (as I did) drop out of college without fear of retribution. You can (as I did) have majored in something completely unrelated to computers. You don't even need references, really -- especially since a lot of companies are afraid to give references anymore (there have been lawsuits. If you give a good reference for a bad employee, the company that hired him might sue you. If you give a bad reference, regardless of whether the employee is good or bad, the employee might sue you. Sigh.) As long as you actually know what you're doing, you'll get a job. If you follow through, do your job well and demonstrate that you're intelligent, you'll work your way up to a senior level position in five years. Yes, five years is "Senior" here. It's really that scary. I don't suspect it'll stay this way forever, of course, but for now it's frighteningly simple to get into a computer job in Silicon Valley. I don't know how it is elsewhere in the country, but I suspect it's at least similar. > Sellam -Seth From dpp1 at prodigy.net Thu Jun 29 17:01:12 2000 From: dpp1 at prodigy.net (Dennis Phillips) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Dibs... References: <001f01bfe20f$7c0655c0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <001601bfe215$8b4f8be0$7426ff3f@oemcomputer> Can anyone please tell me how to get off this mail list? Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:17 PM Subject: Dibs... > I call dibs on ASCI White (when it's decommissioned) :) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 16:54:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at Jun 29, 0 03:21:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/867c6229/attachment-0001.ksh From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Jun 29 22:52:42 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <002001bfe211$0227d6f0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: Hello Bill On 29-Jun-00, you wrote: >>>> Will, don't stop there... why not go all the way and >>>> install a fast breeder reactor, so you'll be able to >>>> have all the electricity you need plus generate your >>>> own fuel for future use! >>> >>> ... and control it with a ZX81. >>> >> There was a little know ZX-81 accessory for this purpose developed in >> England as an ASIC. It was known as the "fission chip." > > Always delivered wrapped in today's copy of The Times. Ewwwwwww another bad pun > > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From james at megaeasy.com Thu Jun 29 17:00:58 2000 From: james at megaeasy.com (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000629170033.00cca5f0@mail.texoma.net> One ex-wife is all any of probably can afford. At 04:39 PM 06/29/2000, you wrote: >I don't often make great finds around Hartford, but a local HS had a tag >sale, and for $20 I came away with: > >2 Mac Plus w/ 2 "long" and 3 "short" keyboards, 1 numeric keypad (less the >')' key), all working >3 matching 20 MB SCSI drives, also working >5 mice for same >1 Mac LC >3 Apple Keyboard II (1 cable, 2 kb's missing 1 key each, and only 1 ADB >cord) >1 "limited Edition Woz" IIGS, working >2 Mac 12" RGB Displays, working >1 Apple composite color monitor for the IIGS, working >1 Apple IIe >2 Echo IIb boards & speakers >3 3.5" Apple drives, condition unknown >3 5" Apple drives, condition unknown >2 Heath-Zenith 8088's, from which I scavenged the 2 ST-225 drives (working), >1 working HD controller, 2 5" floppies condition unknown, 2 floppy >controllers (ditto), I/O boards, AST combo board, the CPU's and memory >chips. > AND >1 IBM PC Portable - one of the floppies was not working, so I replaced it >with a HD and WD controller from one of the Zeniths - works great! > >If I had half the space some of you describe, I could have had 20-30 IIe's, >monitors, printers, and some 286 PC's. Of course, if I did that I would >also have a second ex-wife! > >Bob Stek >Saver of Lost SOLs > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 29 17:12:37 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. - disk storage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > Such contraptions are already in use in filing systems. I have one > machine that stores a few hundred 8" floppy disks in the same manner (that > Fred Cisin forced me to take :) Sorry, folks, I only had the one. It was a giant contraption made by Diebold (they make cabinets for banks, ATM machines, etc.) BTW, Urban Ore (the retail outlet of the Berkeley dump) has a 4 drawer fireproof file cabinet with three drawers configured for 5.25" floppies; but the top drawer is mangled (by somebody without appropriate skills opening it without a key) Did anyone mention the essential item of a good truck loading dock? Rail siding? Cargo landing strip? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 29 17:34:42 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Re: Getting into VAXing (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <14683.52994.534613.972618@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 29, Tony Duell wrote: > It's essentially the same CPU, packed into a different case, and with an > RC25 disk drive. I am told the latter is a nightmare which headcrashes if > you look at it wrongly, but anyway..... At a former place of employment, there was a legend of one of those blasted RC25 drives crashing because someone farted. Apparently, the guy was sitting on one of those notorious un-padded wooden chairs which was on the raised floor right next to the machine (an 11/725) containing the drive. He ate lunch at the Mexican restaurant across the street. Apparently his output produced just enough vibration at just the right frequency to cause the head to hit the media during a spinup. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 17:02:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDA@TEGNTSERVER> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Jun 29, 0 03:42:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/9e634cc0/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 17:12:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Can some HP people help this guy? (HP9836) In-Reply-To: <395B6A3C.21902.1634D79@localhost> from "David Williams" at Jun 29, 0 03:24:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1625 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000629/c605056c/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 29 17:20:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing Message-ID: <004001bfe21b$578c4c70$6e64c0d0@ajp166> For the original topic... For those getting into VAX based machines a smaller VAX like a VS2000, VS3100 or maybe a complete MicroVax-II, MV-III, 11/730 or even 11/750 is a good starting point and an easy admission. Once you're comfortable and DECified with that then something more massive or complex to get going is reasonable. Also from a perfomance standpoint the smaller VAXen can be impressive. I can hear the crowd... 11/730 or 750s are physically larger but if complete they are otherwise ver manageable for power and cooling. Also unlike the larger 78x and 85xx series the 730s and 750s are fairly common, well known and can often be had for the effort of moving it. Allison From dpp1 at prodigy.net Thu Jun 29 18:39:35 2000 From: dpp1 at prodigy.net (Dennis Phillips) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. - disk storage References: Message-ID: <002001bfe223$4951e5e0$2a27ff3f@oemcomputer> Can someone tell me how to get off of this mail list? thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 3:12 PM Subject: RE: Your dream computer room. - disk storage > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > A vertical storage system with 3 foot deep by > > > 4 foot wide "shelves" mounted on a kind of chain > > > driven circular elevator. I got the idea from > > Such contraptions are already in use in filing systems. I have one > > machine that stores a few hundred 8" floppy disks in the same manner (that > > Fred Cisin forced me to take :) > > Sorry, folks, I only had the one. It was a giant contraption made by > Diebold (they make cabinets for banks, ATM machines, etc.) > > BTW, Urban Ore (the retail outlet of the Berkeley dump) has a 4 drawer > fireproof file cabinet with three drawers configured for 5.25" floppies; > but the top drawer is mangled (by somebody without appropriate skills > opening it without a key) > > > Did anyone mention the essential item of a good truck loading dock? > Rail siding? > Cargo landing strip? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 29 19:29:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: <14683.52994.534613.972618@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Getting into VAXing (Tony Duell) Message-ID: >On June 29, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's essentially the same CPU, packed into a different case, and with an >> RC25 disk drive. I am told the latter is a nightmare which headcrashes if >> you look at it wrongly, but anyway..... > > At a former place of employment, there was a legend of one of those >blasted RC25 drives crashing because someone farted. Yeah yeah, and then theres the poor kid who pulled his dads finger just before the earthquake... From ss at allegro.com Thu Jun 29 19:32:52 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: <200006281859.LAA01324@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <395B8844.7631.AD18AC8@localhost> Re: > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal ... > Find a way to stay in school. Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! One non-college grad here said he finds that after about 5 years of experience, most places don't care that he didn't have a degree. (He also said that the places that cared the most were the ones he least wanted to work at: large companies.) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 19:04:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. - disk storage In-Reply-To: <002001bfe223$4951e5e0$2a27ff3f@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Dennis Phillips wrote: > Can someone tell me how to get off of this mail list? For the mailing list savvy impaired (whatever): Send a message to and in the body of the message put: unsubscribe classiccmp Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 19:07:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: <395B8844.7631.AD18AC8@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > ... > > Find a way to stay in school. > > Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), > and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have > college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! Aw, this is all hooey. If you do go to college, study cool stuff like philosophy, literature, the physical sciences, psychology, math... And of course party a lot and chase after your prefered sex. If you're intelligent enough, everything else will fall into place. If not, well, I guess get a degree then ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From vaxman at uswest.net Thu Jun 29 20:12:34 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting into VAXing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >On June 29, Tony Duell wrote: > >> It's essentially the same CPU, packed into a different case, and with an > >> RC25 disk drive. I am told the latter is a nightmare which headcrashes if > >> you look at it wrongly, but anyway..... > > > > At a former place of employment, there was a legend of one of those > >blasted RC25 drives crashing because someone farted. > > Yeah yeah, and then theres the poor kid who pulled his dads finger just > before the earthquake... > A buddy of mine was in the clean room of a disk drive manufacture (to remain nameless). Being the joker he is, he farted next to the particle counter that kept track of the general level of cleanliness of the room HDAs were being manufactured. It took several hours to convince management not to shut the line down and completely clean the room (basically you have to wipe EVERY surface, item, tool in the room with a cleaning solution and lint free cloths). I still don't trust XT-2190s. clint From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 29 21:21:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Archives of OS/360-ish public domain software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The problem with (1970's) IBM machines as against similar vintage DEC > machines is that the IBM machines have a lot less 'hacker' documentation > available. For some IBM systems it can even be hard to get the binary > opcode list, something that DEC have been known to stick in the > advertising flyer. > > DEC machines generally had at least schematics and a technical manual > available. And most of the components were off-the-shelf. This, alas, > doesn't apply to IBM machines. Certainly many of the old IBMs could be hacked with (if the shop would let 'em - probably more of an issue!). The only machine I can think of that was really a mystery back then was the S/38, because it was so high level (S/38s somewhat mutated into the AS/400 family). Lots of information - enough to do some darn cool hacks - was commonly available for the S/360 and S/370, S/3, S/32,34,36, and S/1 (basically most of the biggies of the 70s and 80s). Hardware and maintenance docs for the old systems used to be very locked up, but not anymore. Many of the machines that are popping up these days have the set of Big Blue Binders with them, as apparently IBM is not taking them back anymore (or is not too careful about it). Once the rhyme and reason is solved behind the organization of the maintenance libraries, the machines get described in minute detail - actually far better than DEC docs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 29 21:33:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > You know.... I don't know if you're jokeing or not, but.... That could be > pretty cool :^) Maybe not for something like my PDP-11/44 mind you > (although I kind of like that idea), but it would definitly be a cool idea > for a large PC tower case :^) Actually, I was serious. :-) ...after all, my PDP-8/e is already has a black case. I sort of hate to paint my 11/73's rack or the front panels of my 11/44 or RL02s, however, can't we somehow coat these things with something removeable that we can paint? :-) After all all those flourescent mythical designs on black backgrounds in a room with black lighting would look neat with the blinking lights on front panels. Has anyone here done anything like this? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ss at allegro.com Thu Jun 29 21:36:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 Message-ID: <395BA548.10263.6B4878@localhost> Hi, I got my Lexmark Lexbook MB10 going finally (had to determine the polarity of the A/C input). A couple of pictures are at: http://www.allegro.com/people/sieler/lexbook/ I mention this only because there seems to be no other information on the web about this machine. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 29 22:09:51 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: <200006300309.XAA14774@world.std.com> >> We had an agreement that if anything new came in, >> something had to go out. This has limited my collecting for a little >> while. >I had the same agreement... Some new "stuff" came in so, I tossed the old >"stuff" out. Now I live alone :-) Whoops... :-) Megan From elvey at hal.com Thu Jun 29 23:45:45 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: OT: College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > Re: > > > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > > ... > > > Find a way to stay in school. > > > > Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), > > and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have > > college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! > > Aw, this is all hooey. If you do go to college, study cool stuff like > philosophy, literature, the physical sciences, psychology, math... And of > course party a lot and chase after your prefered sex. Hi I guess I'd have to put more emphasis of taking courses that you thought mattered over getting the degree. I don't know if I'd choose the same things that Sellam would choose but then he isn't me and I'm not him. I think he would still choose the right things because he felt they were right and not because some idiot consoler thought they were right. I should have noted that although I take extension courses, I don't take them for credit. I'm not there for a A or a C. I'm there for the understanding that I feel will make me better able to deal with the things I come across. I know when I am making progress or not, the grade doesn't. That is why it is important to realize that the things that are right for Sellam may not be right for me. I wouldn't tell him what was right for him but I might show him the path that I found. The point is, don't stay in college for the degree. It does have some value but if that is the only reason you are staying there, it isn't a good enough reason. It may get you a job, that you may not have even been interviewed for otherwise but you are not likely to stay at that job for long. One of two things will happen. You will either realize that isn't what you wanted or your employer will realize that you were not what they wanted. Don't stay in college because I told you so. I just think that you are missing the real reason for being there. I just suggest that you look for that reason before you make other judgments. If you treat college like a chance to look into those thing that you feel will expand yourself, you can't loose. The rewords of learning go way beyond monetary gains. Find what knowledge you are looking for in college and take course towards that goal. If you happen to get a degree along the way, OK fine. If not, you still have the knowledge. Just an opinion and most have one. Dwight From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 29 23:15:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 In-Reply-To: <395BA548.10263.6B4878@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > I got my Lexmark Lexbook MB10 going finally (had to > determine the polarity of the A/C input). A couple > of pictures are at: > http://www.allegro.com/people/sieler/lexbook/ > > I mention this only because there seems to be no other > information on the web about this machine. Stan, are you sure this runs on an 8088, as your web page says? That's way behind the times for 1994. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Jun 30 02:04:56 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: TU58-K DECTAPE IIs available Message-ID: <20000630020456.J10437@mrbill.net> I've got a box of five TU58-K DECTAPE IIs available, if someone has a need for them and has something to swap in return (I'm not lookin for much) let me know. Bill -- +-------------------\ /-----------------+ | Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org | | mrbill@mrbill.net | www.decvax.org | | Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org | +-------------------/ \-----------------+ From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 30 03:36:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: College References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <004b01bfe26e$54be49a0$0400c0a8@winbook> >From what I get from various colleagues, there are plenty of applications to process every week for these not-too-clever personnel types to process. Any way they can cut their workload, from, say 250 resumes per week to 25 will work just fine. One way is to toss the ones that have something that jumps out at you, like gaps in employment ("well, gee, I won the lottery and took a long trip . . .") unconventional timing in things like when you went to school, lots of changes in school, major, employment, location, etc, all get the paperwork out of the pile. They claim they can't get qualified people . . . What's really going on is that they can't get qualified people to work for peanuts. They look at a resume that's out of the ordinary in some non-desirable way, they become afraid to take a risk. You may be really good, but they're afraid to go out on a limb. It's easier to hire some fellow from Bangladesh who'll live in a 1 BR apartment with 5 others and write 1000 lines of bug-free C++ a week for $35K per year. Nope . . . better to make the ol' resume' look like it's right down the middle. If you do go into the Peace Corps, you'd best leave that off the resume', else the personnel guy will be too intimidated to confront you about salary, etc. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:45 PM Subject: OT: College > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > > > Re: > > > > While I work as a non-degreed engineer, without personal > > > ... > > > > Find a way to stay in school. > > > > > > Agreed. While I'd hire Dwight in an instant (if we were hiring), > > > and while we have at least 2/5 of our programmers who don't have > > > college degrees, I'd say: get that degree! > > > > Aw, this is all hooey. If you do go to college, study cool stuff like > > philosophy, literature, the physical sciences, psychology, math... And of > > course party a lot and chase after your prefered sex. > > Hi > I guess I'd have to put more emphasis of taking courses that > you thought mattered over getting the degree. I don't know if > I'd choose the same things that Sellam would choose but then > he isn't me and I'm not him. I think he would still choose the > right things because he felt they were right and not because some > idiot consoler thought they were right. > I should have noted that although I take extension courses, I > don't take them for credit. I'm not there for a A or a C. I'm > there for the understanding that I feel will make me better able > to deal with the things I come across. I know when I am making > progress or not, the grade doesn't. That is why it is important > to realize that the things that are right for Sellam may not > be right for me. I wouldn't tell him what was right for him > but I might show him the path that I found. > The point is, don't stay in college for the degree. It does > have some value but if that is the only reason you are staying > there, it isn't a good enough reason. It may get you a job, > that you may not have even been interviewed for otherwise but you are > not likely to stay at that job for long. One of two things will happen. > You will either realize that isn't what you wanted or your employer > will realize that you were not what they wanted. > Don't stay in college because I told you so. I just think that > you are missing the real reason for being there. I just suggest > that you look for that reason before you make other judgments. > If you treat college like a chance to look into those thing that > you feel will expand yourself, you can't loose. The rewords > of learning go way beyond monetary gains. > Find what knowledge you are looking for in college and take course > towards that goal. If you happen to get a degree along the way, > OK fine. If not, you still have the knowledge. > Just an opinion and most have one. > Dwight > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 04:26:06 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <004b01bfe26e$54be49a0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: Foo with all this sideways thinking on college, not college, etc. How do you get a "good" job, not just money, but something you like etc.? Why throw around a lot of resume's, then act like a fish and hope you get caught by a nice fisherman. Turn the experience around and find places YOU want to work at, then find a way to work there. The hard part is figuring out which is the good place, getting the job more a matter of determination and effort. I've been working for about 35 years, and I still don't have a good picture of what I want to do when I grow up. I do have a good idea of what the company would be like though. Number one factor is the person in charge, do they do their job, ie manage and let you engineer? From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:05:18 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:22:35 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > ... and control it with a ZX81. > > [I believe that one of the suggested possible uses of the ZX81 (or maybe > the ZX80) in the early adverts _was_ controlling a > nuclear power station. Yes, I remember that ad. > Fortunately, none were ever used for this.] Are you *sure* about that, Tony? You see, I've heard that the Compukit UK101 (clone of the Ohio Scientific Superboard) was very popular at Oldbury nuclear power station because it was cheap enough to buy without getting lots of paperwork signed. So, at least some UK101s were being bought by engineers at Oldbury, but what they used them for, well, who knows? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:08:40 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: The cost of collecting debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:18:41 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > The machine sold in the UK as the 'Sirius' seems to be the same machine s > the US Victor 9000 (although I've never seen the latter). As far as I know, they are the same machine, different badge. ... > 3 6522 VIAs on the motherboard, for system control functions, the > Printer/GPIB port and the user port > Sound I/O using a 6852 and a CODEC chip > A strange video system. There's 2K*16 bits of video RAM, with a 6845 CRT The Sirius was designed by Chuck Peddle, who also designed the PET and the 6502. One of the early demo programs showed a bit-mapped image of him on the screen of the Sirius. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:11:30 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:54:54 -0700 Mike Ford wrote: > Generally a couple good outlets (AC and 10bt) Do you mean 10-base-T? Telephone wire? Surely not! Any proper machine room needs lots of thick yellow EtherHose and vampire taps! :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 05:16:59 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of Discolored Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:44:42 -0400 (EDT) "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were > sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black > backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, > unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my > collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an > artist who's into painting computers? :-) I'm no artist, but I often paint my computers black. Nothing really rare/classic, you understand, unless you count an Atari ST (also added some INMOS transputer links to that one). Ordinary beige PC cases and disk drives are much improved by the addition of some black paint, Allen bolts, keyswitches, flashing lights (Ethernet Tx/Rx), and a reset button with a clear plastic flip-top protective cover. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 05:42:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Do you mean 10-base-T? Telephone wire? > >Surely not! Any proper machine room needs lots of thick >yellow EtherHose and vampire taps! :-) Let me know if you need some, I've got them new in the box. OTOH feel free to stop by and let my wife bonk you with a frying pan (she did enough install work to be very good at picking the wire splinters out of her fingers and the coax). No charge for bonking on the head lessons, minor costs for actual vampire taps. BTW I may end up with thin coax, just more practical in this case and I have plenty. Any reasonable link to a backup/restore server is fine. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 30 07:17:15 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: RE: Your dream computer room." (Jun 30, 11:11) References: Message-ID: <10006301317.ZM5044@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 30, 11:11, John Honniball wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:54:54 -0700 Mike Ford > wrote: > > Generally a couple good outlets (AC and 10bt) > > Do you mean 10-base-T? Telephone wire? > > Surely not! Any proper machine room needs lots of thick > yellow EtherHose and vampire taps! :-) The new cables and fittings in mine are a mixture of Cat 5e and Cat 6, but I'm keeping the proper yellow stuff and the blue drops. I suspect the microVax would be offended otherwise :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 30 08:42:21 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, John Honniball wrote: > I remember this! Only vaguely, though. It was indeed a > multi-tasking version of MS-DOS, supplied by Microsoft to a > UK computer company. Interestingly, Microsoft bought^H^H^H^H^H^H hired the chap who wrote Wendin DOS. I wonder if there's a connection. Has anyone else here used WendinDOS, that multi-tasking MS-DOS-like software - that also could pretend to be VMS or UNIX - what allowed one to attach multiple terminals to an 8088 PC? Also, does anyone remember playing with VMiX (another multi-tasking, multi-process, program that one ran from MS-DOS)? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 30 09:28:06 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Subject: the other side of the equation - your SO/spouse Message-ID: Maybe I am lucky or my SO is special but we have come to an equilibrium. She has a few pieces of sailing and tennis equipment scattered around the property and I have lots of computer stuff. Last week she was looking for the lawn swings and looked in the attic of the garage. Her first question was "Where did all of that stuff come from?" Luckily I could "honestly" answer that many of the boxes were empty waiting to ship stuff. I seem to collect really good quality computer/medical equipment shipping boxes. It's much easier to send somebody a computer if it's packed right. She has never looked in the little travel trailer which we haven't used in years. Currently full of cables and old tape stuff. I can always point to her tennis racquet stringing machine in the rec room and sails hanging in the garage. I firmly believe and we have discussed this that a computer hobby is a lot cheaper than all of the people around here who go to the gambling boats, football/baseball games, golf, or out at the bars every night. Besides I'm usually not drinking, loosing money, or chasing women just out in the garage fiddling with the computers. The skills from this hobby also means that I can usually fix a dead phone, rewire broken mixer cord, replace furnace fan motor, fix plumbing, fiddle with electrical/electronic devices, take a VCR apart and sometimes even get it back together and working. I have an old house which means all these skills are survival skills. I also get called by neighbors to look at their computers and this nets me a few old machines/components. Mike My thoughts right now, nobody else's. mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 30 09:39:58 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room Message-ID: I'd like a detached small building with the following. 1. a raised tile floor, 2. anachoic tile on the walls and ceiling, kind of like egg shell foam which absorbs noise. 3. 4 plex power boxes under every other tile 4. Non fluorescent lighting 5. air-conditioning through the floor 6. 1 window overlooking the lake 7. Separate shop area 8. Separate storage area with steel shelves accessible from front and back 9. Loading dock area 10. workbench with power strip along entire front edge 11. Small van to haul/pickup stuff When I was growing up on the farm we had outbuildings for everything. Chicken coop, granery, tool shed, pump house, shop, garage, dog house, and a barn. Seemed to keep stuff located somewhat together. Mike Dreaming not working mmcfadden@cmh.edu From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jun 29 23:23:24 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000629212324.006c3364@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:01 PM 6/29/00 -0700, Zane Healy wrote: >R. D. Davis wrote: >> On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: >> > Probably the best solution (and if you think about it, the most "proper") >> > is to cover it with a very light coat of paint (something not too >> > aggressive). >> >> Ok, something subtle like the way that doodlebugs (VW Beetles) were >> sometimes decorated in the 1960s and 1970s? Also, how about black >> backgrounds with flourescent dragons, faeries, crystal-balls, trees, >> unicorns, streams, waterfalls, horses, etc. painted on them? Hmmm, my >> collection would look rather neat that way. Does anyone know an >> artist who's into painting computers? :-) > >You know.... I don't know if you're jokeing or not, but.... That could be >pretty cool :^) Maybe not for something like my PDP-11/44 mind you >(although I kind of like that idea), but it would definitly be a cool idea >for a large PC tower case :^) Keeping in mind, that (at least in the past) if you paid IBM enough, you could get a mainframe done in just about any color scheme that you wanted. I have to think that the wildest one that I personally experienced, was at a Ralston Purina (feed) plant. And yes, as you might guess (or fear) the entire system was painted in red and white checkerboard. -jim From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Jun 30 09:56:46 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My advice for getting a good job (especially if you have a "non-traditional" background, as I do - I don't have a degree either): Network, network, network. Get aquainted with people in the industry you want to work in - lots of people. Make yourself, and your skills, known. I've only had a few jobs since I bailed out of school. In each of my jobs, the manager hiring for the position had already knew who I was, and had decided they wanted me before I even interviewed, and before they ever saw a resume. In each case, the interview was just to make sure I wasn't a total loon, and the resume was just a formality (I never even sent a resume in here - though I was hired 10 years ago [before we were aquired by the large corporation whose globally recognizable three-letter name appears in my email header...] and don't think they could get away with that level of "informality" these days). I know several people who've gotten all their jobs this way, too. --Pat. From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 30 10:32:27 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting a good job References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <395CBD8B.16F28E51@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > I've been working for about 35 years, and I still don't have a good picture > of what I want to do when I grow up. I do have a good idea of what the > company would be like though. Number one factor is the person in charge, do > they do their job, ie manage and let you engineer? And I thought I was the only one with the "Peter Pan" Syndrome :). Couldn't agree more with your description! IMNSHO,the only reason for college is to open doors. When college and advanced degrees are the keys for a chosen field, it is foolish not to complete a degree. I have thought many times about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher paying job but not much more. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 11:01:38 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEEA@TEGNTSERVER> > Keeping in mind, that (at least in the past) if you paid IBM enough, you > could get a mainframe done in just about any color scheme that you wanted. > > I have to think that the wildest one that I personally experienced, was at > a Ralston Purina (feed) plant. And yes, as you might guess (or fear) the > entire system was painted in red and white checkerboard. Most 370s I'd seen had been either the standard blue or the (older?) burnt sienna, but at IU Kokomo (or was it Fort Wayne?) they had a 370/25 that was canary yellow. Talk about putting your eyes out! -dq From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 30 11:05:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Pat Barron wrote: > My advice for getting a good job (especially if you have a > "non-traditional" background, as I do - I don't have a degree either): > Network, network, network. Get aquainted with people in the industry you > want to work in - lots of people. Make yourself, and your skills, known. I would say my expereince agrees. > I've only had a few jobs since I bailed out of school. In each of my > jobs, the manager hiring for the position had already knew who I was, and > had decided they wanted me before I even interviewed, and before they > ever saw a resume. In each case, the interview was just to make sure I > wasn't a total loon, and the resume was just a formality (I never even ;-) This is exactly what 30 years of work history has been about for me. Often the new employer and I were 'aquainted' in some way, my current position was a direct result of my collecting activity. I'd also say the best jobs I've had/have more or less found me. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 30 10:53:01 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: vax (fwd) Message-ID: I think this guy may have fool's gold syndrome but if someone would like to help him out then please do. Reply-to: m.mcneely@prodigy.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:21:56 -0400 From: m.mcneely Subject: vax i have a vax 4000/300 and codex 6745 i just unplugged from the wall in a major retail store im demolishing it was installed new in 90 i dont know anything about servers but i know it must be worth something it looks new it has 3 dec300servers in it, and plenty of other things [hubs routers monitors and key boards] that i dont know anything about what im looking for is {whats it worth} it was working when i unplugged it it still has the two floppies in the drive and i have all the cables that were hooked to it if you would like i can send pics i'd be willing to pay someone a commition for selling it for me thanks in advance Rick M.McNeely@prodigy.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 12:29:19 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEEA@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > Most 370s I'd seen had been either the standard blue or the > (older?) burnt sienna, but at IU Kokomo (or was it Fort Wayne?) > they had a 370/25 that was canary yellow. Talk about putting > your eyes out! Yellow was a standard color, but I don't think it was picked much. Blue, of course, was the default, but IBM also offered red (orange-ish), white, yellow, and (I think) black and green. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 30 13:14:45 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEB6@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <395CFFB5.29946.6C8649CE@localhost> > This might be a topic better posted in the alt.folklore.computers > USENET group, but let me try here first. This is from memory, and > it's not as reliable as I'd like it to be. > IIRC, OS/2 was not Microsoft's first attempt to create a > multitasking operating system. They were working on, and > I believe mostly finished, a DOS 4.0 that was multitasking. > This was not the PC-DOS 4.0 for IBM, nor was it the MS-DOS > 4.0 that we finally saw here in the states. > This multitasking DOS 4.0 (from Microsoft, not a third party) > was supplied with a computer that was old only in either the > UK or more widely in Europe. It seems that the first letter > of the computer manufacturer was an 'A', so the machine could > have been an Apricot, an Amstrad, an Acorn, or lord knows. > I read about this machine either in Byte during the late 80s > or in a BIX conference (I MISS BIX!). I've searched the web > for references to this multitasking MS-DOS 4, and have found > nothing. > Does anyone else remember this? Was the Byte article reviewing > a sample of a product that never shipped? Did anyone get their > hands on one? Does anyone have it? Well, I never heared about the version you are refering to, but DOS was basicly starting from 2.0 able to do task switching. All Informations necersary where contained within a series of structures with a single root. The only missing thing was a table of task pointers to switch between - and a service to store and restore the screen content. There have been several products offering this service. And with DOS 4 MS supplied the infamous shell, capable of doing this. You could load several applications and switch via a hot key combination. Windows is still today (at least Win9x) based on this very same mechanism for context switching. Also the functions for 'background' applications/drivers where designed to support application switching. The famous TSR mechanism was not only ment to steal some memory for crude interrupt handlers, but also for true serviceprovider tasks within the OS ... well, I guess most programmers never realized the potential offered and kept limited to a simple one programm state of mind. All this was already available starting with DOS 2.x, just it has never been 'official' until DOS 4.x Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 30 13:18:53 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: 720K on PC (was: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <395D00AD.22610.6C8A1379@localhost> > > Considering the 96tpi DD 5.25" disk and the 3.5" DD disk, they have the > > same number of cylinders (80), the same number of heads (2), the same > > number of sectors/track (9), the same rotational speed (300 rpm) ,etc. So > > why isn't the capacity _exactly_ the same? > It is. The computer can't tell them apart. > Prior to DOS 3.20 (particularly in 2.11), many OEMs started using > 5.25" 720K drives and 3.5" 720K drives. But because it was not sanctioned > by IBM, there was no standardization, and there were many mutually > incompatible formats. Starting with 3.20, the format is standardized. Thats the core issue: IBM didn't use 720K prior to DOS 3.2 - DOS itself was able to support almost any format you may think of, and many manufacturers did. In case of DOS, IBM was only one of many, and not the sole supplier of everything. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 30 13:25:04 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Dibs... In-Reply-To: <001f01bfe20f$7c0655c0$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEDF@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <395D0220.23234.6C8FBC34@localhost> > I call dibs on ASCI White (when it's decommissioned) :) Granted :)) H. P.S.: I'll go for the Hitachi SR8000 F1 (#4 at the top500) installed at LRZ in Munich :) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 30 13:25:39 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) Message-ID: <20000630182539.81687.qmail@hotmail.com> In my IBM experience, I can personally confirm the existence of the following colors: Black (The modern standard) Blue (I have a 3262 line printer this color) Gray/grey <- this is what I think is the standard color, though the standard color depends on what line of machines we're talking about.. (My S/36 (5360), both 8100's (8140 and 8150), both 8809 MTD's, and all of my 8101 and 8102 disk drives are this color. Red (I've seen a 3380 this color) Yellow (I have a 3262 line printer in this color, yuck-o) I'm not saying that there might not be other colors, I'm just confirming that these colors do exist. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Fri Jun 30 13:39:34 2000 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Xerox DayBreak Message-ID: Hi. I have a Xerox DayBreak workstation lying on a corner back home and I'd really much liked to do something with it. I have already posted emails to this list about this subject, but since so much time passed since then I resolved to re-post to see I get something new. The issues I'd like to solve are: 1. decent interface of the display output to some monitor -- I worked on a small circuit to convert the ECL levels and separate syncs into a composite video output, for a mono monitor, using discrete components, but the image was sort of fuzzy. Are there any ideas on doing these the right way (if any)? 2. interfacing the keyboard/mouse connector to a PC's serial port -- I managed to build a decent interface for this (using a MAX232), but now the problem is protocol: anyone knows the protocol for sending key presses/releases signals? I believe they have something from 1 to 3 bytes. I have a set of PDF of scanned Xerox manuals (TechRef and IOP) including some schematics (awesome work! congrats for the one who scanned them and put them on the web!). But they don't specify the keyboard protocol. On the other hand, I also got PDF's of the MESA manuals, but they describe teh keyboard interface at the API level (no luck there either). Any help on these issues is very welcome! Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 13:41:10 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: The Original MS-DOS 4.0 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEED@TEGNTSERVER> > Well, I never heared about the version you are refering to, but > DOS was basicly starting from 2.0 able to do task switching. > All Informations necersary where contained within a series of > structures with a single root. The only missing thing was a > table of task pointers to switch between - and a service to > store and restore the screen content. There have been several > products offering this service. And with DOS 4 MS supplied the > infamous shell, capable of doing this. You could load several > applications and switch via a hot key combination. Windows is > still today (at least Win9x) based on this very same mechanism > for context switching. Also the functions for 'background' > applications/drivers where designed to support application > switching. The famous TSR mechanism was not only ment to steal > some memory for crude interrupt handlers, but also for true > serviceprovider tasks within the OS ... well, I guess most > programmers never realized the potential offered and kept > limited to a simple one programm state of mind. > > All this was already available starting with DOS 2.x, just > it has never been 'official' until DOS 4.x I'd have to differ with you a bit on this. A co-worker and I spent 6 months writing a DOS 2.0-compatible file system for our own application which contained its own home-rolled multitasker; we had to write the file system because the DOS file system calls were (and through at least 3.3) were not serially-reentrant. Even then, the performance was so poor (we had just moved to deploying on iAPX286 machines) that we ditched the full-task model and created what we today would call "threads", although we simply called them lightweight processes back then. The context switching you're referring to revolves around switching some data structures, such as the file handle table; but you have to wait until a file system call is done before you can swap to the next task. Not useful when (like us) you're developing real-time software. As an aside, this was for the last firm for which I worked as a programmer; I left in '90, and dropped in for a visit in '95; at that time, they told me the system I'd designed was running in a DOS box under the Alpha-release of Win95 and was beating a comparable application running on a VAX. I felt very good that day... -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 13:48:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:08 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEEE@TEGNTSERVER> > Gray/grey <- this is what I think is the standard color, My Model 711 Card Reader and Model 716 Line Printer (my first foolish acquisitions, gotten in the 70's and mostly disposed of in the 80's) were gray as you say. -dq From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 30 14:03:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: (mmcfadden@cmh.edu) References: Message-ID: <20000630190316.7104.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike wrote: > 3. 4 plex power boxes under every other tile Way insufficient, if you're talking about "normal" NEMA 5-15R or 5-20R receptacles. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Jun 30 14:21:44 2000 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000629212324.006c3364@agora.rdrop.com> References: <200006292101.OAA30673@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000630151951.009d4b90@popmail.voicenet.com> At 09:23 PM 6/29/00 -0700, you wrote: >I have to think that the wildest one that I personally experienced, was at >a Ralston Purina (feed) plant. And yes, as you might guess (or fear) the >entire system was painted in red and white checkerboard. I had some personal experience with that sale. IBM at first said no, just the standard colors. Ralston Purina said we'll buy at Control Data, they'll give us what we want. IBM gave them checkered covers but it did take some levels of approval. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 14:22:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Paint JObs (was Re: Restoration of Discolored Plastic) In-Reply-To: <20000630182539.81687.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > In my IBM experience, I can personally confirm the existence of the > following colors: OK, I forgot grey. Anyway, these five or six colors were the standards for IBMs in the late 1960s thru the 80s. Certainly IBM charged a premium for straying outside the bounds. Also, it appears that the old IBM stuff did get repainted, probably when the stuff came off lease and was to be sent to another customer. My 3340N1 is blue now but used to be yellow. Others have also run into repainted panels. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 14:29:29 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: <20000630190316.7104.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Way insufficient, if you're talking about "normal" NEMA 5-15R > or 5-20R receptacles. I would tend to agree - not for density of outlets, but for the kinds of outlets. Most larger machines generally have some sort of locking plugs (L5s and L6s). So better include those. Of course we all know that REAL machines don't plug in... One nice way of doing things is to have the boxes tethered to armored flexible conduit (not BX, but sort of a plastic coated Greenfield), so the box can move to the machine, and not the other way around. It is quite legal. RCS/RI is installing dual voltage locking receptacles (L14-30Rs), so that most machines can be plugged in anywhere. Damn expensive, though. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 15:09:05 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEF0@TEGNTSERVER> > One nice way of doing things is to have the boxes tethered to armored > flexible conduit (not BX, but sort of a plastic coated Greenfield), so > the box can move to the machine, and not the other way around. It is > quite legal. > > RCS/RI is installing dual voltage locking receptacles (L14-30Rs), so that > most machines can be plugged in anywhere. Damn expensive, though. Bill, make sure you include tidbits like these in the museum how-to. -doug q, who's running the Prime from a custom 30-amp 5-20R quad terminated extension cord From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 14:39:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <395CBD8B.16F28E51@rain.org> References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: >about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the >question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would >merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and >motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise >having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher >paying job but not much more. I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" reasonable to the boss. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 30 15:33:38 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Getting a good job Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAEF1@TEGNTSERVER> > >about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the > >question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would > >merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and > >motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise > >having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher > >paying job but not much more. > > I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the > ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" > reasonable to the boss. My first embedded systems project (the Olicon MVP-035 Radiographic Viewer) had a PhD in C.S. working for six months on the project- all he had to show at the end of it was flowcharts. In six weeks the engineer and I had an operational prototype (needless to say we ditched his flowcharts). -dq From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 30 16:10:46 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Getting a good job References: <200006300445.VAA07815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <002301bfe2d7$ac094d40$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I'd be sure the prospective boss has a sense of humor and doesn't have a PhD himself. My take on what a PhD tells your prosepective employer, though yours may, at least to some extent, be quite correct as well, is that the holder of the PhD has on at least one occasion completed (that word comes up a lot!) a pretty major piece of work as specified by his supervisors, with a minimum of intervention from above, availing himself of whatever resources were needed and producing the desired result within the allocated time. There are a lot of perfectly competent engineers who could not do that, under any circumstances, and for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's not directly taught in school, though you have to do some of the necessary things in order to graduate. The first thing, of course is to define and adequately limit the scope of the work that's chosen. The second is to plan out the task and stick to the schedule. There are numerous tasks that are a part of this work that have parallels in the corporate environment. The folks who advance the quickest are the ones who best know how to "get the job done" even if it means doing things they don't already know how to do. Those are the guys who've had the experience described above as the task of getting the PhD. Having the PhD doesn't guarantee you can do it, (personnel people frequently wish they had a guarantee) but it does show everybody you've done it once. I see employers today looking at a bachelor's degree as proof that you showed up pretty consistently over a nominall 4-year period. That's a major concern to employers nowadays. Having the bachelor's degree doesn't guarantee you know or can do a given thing, but it is more likely in the case of a graduate than in one who's not graduated, yet. The same is true of a master's degree, though that's often taken to mean one has addtional course work making him more of an expert in the discipline in which he got the MS. Perhaps that's true, but I'm convinced it's more assurance that the MS-holder has gotten through a fairly large piece of work, as opposed to a bunch of small ones. Does that sound far off what you see where you sit? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 1:39 PM Subject: Re: Getting a good job > >about going back to pick up a PhD, but each time, I could not answer the > >question "why". With what *I* enjoy doing, having the advanced degree would > >merely end up as an expensive hobby/pursuit. Anyone with imagination and > >motivation will do well regardless of their *formal* education; likewise > >having a degree without those qualities will probably provide a higher > >paying job but not much more. > > I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the > ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" > reasonable to the boss. > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 30 16:37:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: DEC CPU bulkhead issues In-Reply-To: <3953D8E5.C0DF8026@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000630143639.00d75460@208.226.86.10> At 02:38 PM 6/23/00 -0700, Bill King wrote: > Does this have a switch to select between AUI and 10-Base-2? I've >recently repaired two systems where the switch was dirty and didn't make >a good electrical connection. The symptoms were that the AUI port >received, but wouldn't transmit. Maybe that's the problem. Exact-a-mundo! I took it apart and cleaned out the switch (combination of carbon-tet and compressed air) and voila! It works again. Thanks Bill! --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 30 17:03:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:29:29 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000630220349.8795.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Of course we all know that REAL machines don't plug in... Maybe if you're talking Sage-class systems. (No, not the 68K P-system Sage.) All of the really big iron I've worked with still had plugs. Some were big-honkin' three-phase-Y 416V 50A/phase twist-lock plugs, but they were still plugs. From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Jun 30 17:12:58 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F79339@ALFEXC5> Sellam - I'm going to be out of town on a family vacation for the next 10 days or so. I'll drop you a note when I return to see if we can hook up on the Minivac doc. Thanks again! -- Tony > ---------- > From: Sellam Ismail[SMTP:foo@siconic.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:31 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Minivac 601 documentation? > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Eros, Anthony wrote: > > > Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there > anything > > on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable > > price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. > > Yes, you scored. I have all the docs for it but a couple volumes are out > on loan. Contact me privately so we can work out arrangements for > copying. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 > San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Jun 30 17:36:49 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Minivac 601 documentation? Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07F79344@ALFEXC5> Accidently forwarded to the entire list again. Sigh... > ---------- > From: Eros, Anthony > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 6:12 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Minivac 601 documentation? > > Sellam - > > I'm going to be out of town on a family vacation for the next 10 days or > so. > I'll drop you a note when I return to see if we can hook up on the Minivac > doc. > > Thanks again! > > -- Tony > > > ---------- > > From: Sellam Ismail[SMTP:foo@siconic.com] > > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:31 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Minivac 601 documentation? > > > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Eros, Anthony wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have any documentation for the Minivac 601? Is there > > anything > > > on-line? I bought one via eBay (I thought $41 was a pretty reasonable > > > price,) but it didn't come with any of the jumpers or books. > > > > Yes, you scored. I have all the docs for it but a couple volumes are > out > > on loan. Contact me privately so we can work out arrangements for > > copying. > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > > Danger > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 > > San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jun 30 18:42:45 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Jun 30, 2000 12:39:34 pm" Message-ID: <200006302342.QAA01384@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the > ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" > reasonable to the boss. That's funny, cause here we see the primary skill of a PhD as taking an impossible task and managing to get two monkeys and an engineer who should never have been given a degree to complete it on time, on budget, and without additional assistance. We also expect that a PhD should be able to perform any task that might require a mechanical, electrical, software or civil engineer, an MBA, economist, lawyer or priest. They better have learned more in that extra 4+ years of school than they did in the 16 previous. Of course, that doesn't mean most engineers should have a PhD (or that they could get one if they wanted one.) It just means that there are problems I can drop in the lap of a typical PhD that would take a week to explain to the typical programmer. It's a different skill set, and should be treated as such. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 18:12:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: <10006301317.ZM5044@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 30, 0 12:17:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 348 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000701/4f5bb609/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 18:16:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <395CBD8B.16F28E51@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 30, 0 08:32:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 722 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000701/ff44c877/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 18:34:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Xerox DayBreak In-Reply-To: from "Rodrigo Ventura" at Jun 30, 0 07:39:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000701/c06c7f17/attachment-0001.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jun 30 19:38:46 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Getting a good job References: <200006302342.QAA01384@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <395D3D96.F73CB95@mainecoon.com> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > We also expect that a PhD should be able to perform any task that might > require a mechanical, electrical, software or civil engineer, an MBA, > economist, lawyer or priest. They better have learned more in that extra 4+ > years of school than they did in the 16 previous. If you amend that to "...learned more about a very specific topic in that extra 4+ years..." then I'd agree. The principle problem with Ph.D.s is that their knowledge base tends to be as narrow as any other new grads; the only distinction being that they have significantly more depth in one very specific area. Worse, during the past four years that they've been focused on that area they've typically been in the "simplifying assumptions" world that's so prevalent in academia; the difficulty being that more often than not they simplify the problem into oblivion and consequently have little useful to offer when it comes to delivering product. I've had more than one occasion where such people were literally reduced to tears in design meetings as a consequence of being crucified by some staff engineer. > Of course, that doesn't mean most engineers should have a PhD (or that they > could get one if they wanted one.) It just means that there are problems > I can drop in the lap of a typical PhD that would take a week to explain to > the typical programmer. "...drop in the lap of a typical PhD who is familiar with the problem area..." Certainly anytime someone already has the proper frame of reference it takes less time for them to spin up; this was useful to me once when I needed formal correctness proofs of optimizations being performed by a code generator for a parallel processor. I went to Rice, got myself someone whose Ph.D. was in that very field and had them generate the (dis)proofs. When they were done we tried to find other things for them to do, but they were only marginally more effective than our new crop of four-year grads. The person in question is now making use of their Ph.D. by teaching undergraduate CS courses. > It's a different skill set, and should be treated as such. I don't see any evidence that the skill set is particularly different; I haven't noticed that holding a Ph.D. makes one any more adept at solving problems or even particularly good at operating the coffee maker. All the Ph.D. represents is an additional four years of training in an environment that is skewed from the one found in industry; the only place where this would be an advantage is if they were to remain in that academic environment -- which many (eventually) do. Of course, my bias is actually broader than this. Given the choice between someone with four years of experience and someone with no experience and an advanced degree I'll generally pick the guy with real world experience. Given the choice between two people with new four year degrees, one with a 4.0, the other with a 2.9 because they were working in the field in order to put themselves through school I'll generally take the guy with the 2.9. It's all about what you can do and how well it fits with my needs. Everything else is meaningless. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Jun 30 19:19:39 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Fw: X-32 boards Message-ID: <053401bfe2f3$1702c110$a652e780@L166> The following is from a PDP11/Mass Spec customer of mine. If anyone has any ideas for him feel free to contact either of us. I will just forward anything to him if it gets posted to me or the list. With a little direction he can run diagnostics and has available an electronics shop and decent test equipment like scopes. I don't know if they have things like logic analyzers however. ( I did not need one the one time I was on site) It even meets the 10 year rule.:) Dan ---------------- We have an X-32 computer (CPU/3), a German unix machine from 1989. This computer operates a Bruker AMX-500 NMR spectrometer. The computer is functional except that Fourier transform calculations frequently give a massive "transmitter" spike that is NOT hardware related. Although we normally do all repairs through Bruker, the director of our facility does not want to repair this problem because the computer will be replaced within a year and the instrument is functional. However, for a frequent user (me), this problem is extremely frustrating and time-consuming. The problem is almost certainly one of the three following X-32 boards: CPU board H2297 ECL 12 Memory 16MB H2271 ECL 02 Array Processor H2231 ECL 06 If anyone can help with this problem, please contact me by email. Thank you. Bill Wilson Research Scientist Bill Wilson billw@rice.edu Rice University, Dept. of Biochemistry MS140 6100 Main St, Houston, TX 77005-1892 http://www.bioc.rice.edu/~billw/ Tel: 713-348-4914 Fax: 713-348-5154 From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Fri Jun 30 20:10:37 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: IBM 6091 monitors Message-ID: <20000630201037.A3748@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I pulled 2 IBM 6091 19" monitors out of the trash. I think they were used on their power pc computers. I need info on this monitor, such as resolution, refresh rate and what are the white and black bnc connectors for. Any help is appreciated. john -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 20:40:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Getting a good job In-Reply-To: <200006302342.QAA01384@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: from Mike Ford at "Jun 30, 2000 12:39:34 pm" Message-ID: >> I love pointing out to employers that the primary skill of a Phd is the >> ability to stretch a simple project out to two years, and make it "seem" >> reasonable to the boss. > >That's funny, cause here we see the primary skill of a PhD as taking an >impossible task and managing to get two monkeys and an engineer who should Interesting point of view. I personally see no correllation with a Phd, and the skill sets you describe. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 30 21:20:59 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room In-Reply-To: <20000630220349.8795.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > All of the really big iron I've worked with still had plugs. Some > were big-honkin' three-phase-Y 416V 50A/phase twist-lock plugs, but > they were still plugs. Bigger, BIGGER! Medium sized mainframe and above. A Convex I have in the shop has a cord, but its about the size of my wrist, and terminates in a standard (large) electrical junction box. Apparently it was easier to pull out the whole box instead of just cutting the cord. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 30 21:57:37 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Jul 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > It is a well-known fact to all network hardware types that ethernet > electrons get very confused if forced to go down cable that's not yellow ;-) Have they released new vesrions of the Eddy Electron film, so that it now covers ethernet networking and proper network cabling? If not, I'd be inclined to suspect that this and other newer information hasn't been well enough proven to warrant the creation of a new movie. After all, we know that the Eddy Electron film is the one true source of authoritative introductory information about what electrons do, right? Everyone here did see this classic in their 10th grade high-school (or whatever the equivalent of the first year of high school is in other countries) electronics class, right? ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 22:10:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: IBM 6091 monitors In-Reply-To: <20000630201037.A3748@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: >Hello - > >I pulled 2 IBM 6091 19" monitors out of the trash. I think they were >used on their power pc computers. I need info on this monitor, such >as resolution, refresh rate and what are the white and black bnc >connectors for. >From the griffin web site, and my guess is refresh is 75 hz, black and white are H and V sync. IBM 6091-019 Specifications Monitor Specifications Screen Attributes 19" Aperture grill 17.75" viewable image .31 mm dot pitch Input Signal Video Signal : Analog H Frequency : 63.36/81.32 KHz V Frequency : 60/67/77 Hz Sync Signal : Green Compatibility Mac Adapter : None PC Adapter : Input Connector 3 or 5 BNC Maximum Resolution Maximum : 1024x1024 & 1280x1024 Macintosh : Flicker free : Power Use Power Supply : Consumption : maximum Video Bandwidth 100 Mhz User Controls Analog controls BR, CT, CV, VE From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 30 22:12:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: Your dream computer room. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >After all, we know that the Eddy Electron film is the one true source Aren't there some "holes" in that old theory? From bmahoney2001 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 30 23:14:54 2000 From: bmahoney2001 at sympatico.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:55:09 2005 Subject: IBM 6091 monitors References: <20000630201037.A3748@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <395D703D.6D82E4E@sympatico.ca> IBM has one of the largest sites on the net, and 'for sure' the information you need is there. Don't search from the main page, go to support and then search. I have never yet not found what I needed. You have to go in with the attitude that the what you're looking for is there, you just have to find it. Kind of like my basement. Brian John Ott wrote: > Hello - > > I pulled 2 IBM 6091 19" monitors out of the trash. I think they were > used on their power pc computers. I need info on this monitor, such > as resolution, refresh rate and what are the white and black bnc > connectors for. > > Any help is appreciated. > > john > > -- > > ************************************************************************ > * * * > * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * > * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * > * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * > * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * > * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * > * * * > ************************************************************************ -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ (_8^(I)