From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:42:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 02:47:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6d3ef3e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:46:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <007801bfcb4c$e98ba7a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 31, 0 06:04:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6b5f69a6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:42:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 02:47:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6d3ef3e1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:46:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <007801bfcb4c$e98ba7a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 31, 0 06:04:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/6b5f69a6/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 00:37:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Updated Dilog contact information Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> >Delivered-To: cmcmanis@mcmanis.com >From: Jack Olson >To: "'cmcmanis@mcmanis.com'" >Subject: FW: DLI MOVE >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:27:09 -0700 > > > >---------- >From: Jack Olsen >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 11:35 AM >To: Jack Olsen >Subject: DLI MOVE > > >WHAT'S HAPPENING >AT DLI/DILOG? > > >If you've tried to reach us in the last couple of months, you probably >sense that there is something going on. Well you're right. The facility >that we have been occupying in Irvine for the last eight years was sold to >a church. So we had to relocate. > >We found the perfect site only 3 miles away in the city of Tustin and >proceeded to make what was supposed to be a seamless move to our >new digs the first week in March. Well, it wasn't so seamless. The first >problem was that even though we are close to the old place, the new one >was in a different area code, so we had to change telephone and fax >numbers. > >OK, the telephone company will take care of referrals from the old to >the new number. However, a good amount of our communications with >our customers was via email. Now you have to understand our internal >network and connections. We have a Novel system for file, print, email >and Internet access. the Novel is connected to a Linux firewall Internet >gateway. The Linux accesses the Internet every 15 minutes during the >day to retrieve and send email for the company, then delivers it to our >desk with Microsoft exchange. Nice working system. > >No problem. Just disconnect the parts at the old place, and reconnect at >the new, plug into the wall and run. Right? - - Wrong. The Novel >systems disk decided that it didn't like the climate at it's new home and >proceeded to show its displeasure with a series of strange metal against >metal sounds. No problem, we have a Libra library backup system and >are fully backed up. Put on the new disk and restore the Novel system. >Well, the Libra is one of the first ever made and has been chugging >away everyday since we originally installed it. The DAT drive went on >strike and had to be replaced. Once that was done we found out how >important it is to remember where one packs the backup tape set. > >OK its now late March, the Novel server is up and running, but the >building Ethernet wiring is not correct. Emails are being received >sporadically. Bob gets the building wiring squared away and all is >looking well when we receive a registered letter from Concentric, our >Internet service provider telling us that they are discontinuing our dial- >up account on Apr. 24. > >Time to enter the 21st century - we proceed to order an enhanced DSL >service. They can't install until May 1. Call Concentric and see if they >will stretch our disconnect date until then. Officially they cannot agree >to do this. Unofficially it is done - Thank You Concentric. On May 1, >our DSL is installed - but we are given the wrong network connection >card to the Linux system. Got the correct card - DSL works - WOW - >real time mail delivery. > >So now we're here in our new facility with a fully operational LAN and >Internet. > >If you had some trouble reaching us, we apologize. We are here for you >and are now fully accessible via phone - at our new number, fax - at our >new number, or email and web page at the same number. > >Phone 714-508-1040, fax 714-508-1050, >email info@dilog.com, www.dilog.com. > >So remember, same great products for Qbus and Unibus, - > >Same support, - > >New digs. - > >Give us a call. > >Sincerely, > >The DLI crew > From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 00:05:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:19 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Responding to an older message... On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > However, I've just thought of a better example : I once saw a card for an > Apple ][ containing a 1771 and associated components (and probably a > ROM). It linked to an external box containing 2 8" drives. The official > purpose was to allow an Apple with a Z80 Softcard to read standard SSSD > CP/M disks. But I am _sure_ it could have been used from Apple DOS given > the right software. > > Which means the archive format would have to allow for : > > Apple ][, 16 sector 5.25" GCR-encoded disk > and > Apple ][, 26 sector, 8", FM encoded disk. > > It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should > be able to handle _anything_. In any case, I would think that 256 > sub-formats for each machine would be plenty, which means this adds _1 > byte_ to the archive size. Not really a problem IMHO. I suppose a sub-format byte wouldn't hurt. What I don't like about it is that it will require that someone be maintaining a database of all the sub-formats. But I guess since we have a machine identifier and this will have to be maintained as well, a sub-format byte is not too demanding. Of course, there will have to be a central person who is responsible for receiving input for new machine and sub-format types, updating the database with the new computer types and sub-format types, and disseminating this from a website. This is something that can be hosted from the VCF server. The header could also include a text description entered in by the archiver that could describe anything special about the archive. In fact, I envision the archiving program having a section where the archiver inputs his/her name and e-mail address, which will get encoded along with the archive. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 00:30:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's the next iteration of our standard in progress. I've decided to split the header into two separate ones--a Disk Descriptor Header and a Track Descriptor Header--as the discussion has been moving us towards. Desk Descriptor Header 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) 4. Encoding type (1 byte) 5. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] Optional: 6. Archiver Name (24 bytes) 7. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) 8. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) 9. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) A. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) Maximum size: 598 bytes [1] If applicable A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall description of the track: Track Descriptor Header 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Size: 12 bytes [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-7 are ignored. [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. As we can see, so far the addition of the headers adds no significant size to the archive. Comments? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 02:37:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: "Mark Gregory" "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 17:27) References: <01d901bfcb57$d4f9d7c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <10006010837.ZM13597@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 17:27, Mark Gregory wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > >Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* > >lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? > If you want increase your data storage capacity, you could colour code the > string, too. > > Everything old is new again ... we've just re-invented the Inca quipu, a > few centuries on. I know. Aside from jibes at those who so vehemently insist that there should be one particular form of archive, I'm not sure anyone really knows how to read quipus, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 03:13:10 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 22:05) References: Message-ID: <10006010913.ZM13626@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 22:05, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Responding to an older message... > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: [...] > > Which means the archive format would have to allow for : [...] > > It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should > > be able to handle _anything_. Wel, I agree with that, so far as it's possible. > I suppose a sub-format byte wouldn't hurt. What I don't like about it is > that it will require that someone be maintaining a database of all the > sub-formats. But I guess since we have a machine identifier and this will > have to be maintained as well, a sub-format byte is not too demanding. > Of course, there will have to be a central person who is responsible for > receiving input for new machine and sub-format types, updating the > database with the new computer types and sub-format types, and > disseminating this from a website. That's part of the reason I think an encoded format is a bad idea. Hans' suggestion of a tagged format using XML (or something else) is much better. It allows for decoding without referring to a central archive, and it's much more flexible and extensible. Sure, it takes more space, but is that a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly later mail): { Disk Descriptor Header, containing: Host computer type string "Hard"/"soft" sector flag Number of tracks (1 byte) Disk drive RPM ... { Track Descriptor Header, containing: Track number (with fraction) Track format "logical"/"raw" Track size in bytes Sectors in this track (1 byte) Offset to next Track Descriptor Header ... { Sector header descriptor, containing: Sector header format FM/MFM/GCR/... Sector data format FM/MFM/GCR/... [1] Sector number as encoded on the original disk Track number as encoded on original disk Head number as encoded on original disk Physical sector number Sector size ... { sector data (binary, hex-coded, whatever) } { Sector header descriptor } { sector data } } } The nesting tagging allows you to specify things like RX02 floppies, where the headers are FM but the data is MFM. It also allows you to specify different sector sizes on different tracks, or data written in the headers that doesn't match physical track/sector/side on the original. It also means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same time, or someone rolled their own. I've seen too many data formats where the decoding information was unavailable, or was hard to get, or was "location unknown at this time", or the prospective user simply didn't now where to look. If the information is in the archive itself, anyone can work out what do do with it, any time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 04:24:46 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: New Vintage Computer Festival Website! Message-ID: The new Vintage Computer Festival website is now up. http://www.vintage.org Yes, there are still some broken links (none of the foreign language links work for instance...translators needed) but these will be fixed shortly. I invite anyone and everyone to submit articles for publication on the VCF website on any topic having to do with vintage computers and computer history. A link to the article will appear on the home page guaranteeing you exposure. Much thanks goes to Hans Franke for developing the new design! VCF 4.0 dates should be announced within a week or so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 04:44:32 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010837.ZM13597@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I know. Aside from jibes at those who so vehemently insist that there > should be one particular form of archive, I'm not sure anyone really knows > how to read quipus, though. Actually, I do. I did a paper on the Quipu for a history course I took in Peru in the summer of '99 and it's been a low-bandwidth pet research project of mine ever since. I gave a talk based on my Quipu paper at VCF Europa and exhibited the Quipu I constructed while in Peru. The quipu structure was decoded during the first quarter of this century by Leland Locke. His book _The Ancient Quipu_ (1923) explains how the data on the Quipu is encoded. A husband & wife team, Marcia & Robert Ascher, published _Code of the Quipu_ in 1981 which expands on Locke's work. Numbers are encoded on the strings in decimal (base 10) format. No knots represent zero (that the Inca's understood the concept of zero is significant). The color of the strings was also significant, most likely representing categories of data. The problem is that no one knows just what the numbers represent on the quipus known to exist since the context has long been lost and the dumb Conquistadors basically destroyed any evidence of the Inca civilization that might have shed some light on it. I could go into way more detail but right now I am extremely tired so if anyone is truly interested I will be happy to explain more, and also shoot you a copy of the paper I did which is a good overview. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 07:18:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Papertape and Mylar variant Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD7B@TEGNTSERVER> > > Right-o... teletypes with the reader/punch used rolls of paper tape. > > I have a copy of DEC Monopoly on papertape that I punched myself, as > > well as a copy of Intel's INTERP-80 (8080a simulator) and a > Star Trek > > game called BIGMES (from an HP 2000). > > What machine did INTERP-80 run on? Was it written in BASIC? No, it was written in Fortan-IV. I ported it from its original generic source code to run on the CDC6600 under Kronos 2.1, a DEC-10 running TOPS-10, and lastly, a Prime P400 running Primos. > I'm currently writing a simulation of the hardware that HP 2000 TSB ran > on (a pair of HP 21xx minicomputers with a pair of bidirectional parallel > interfaces between them). I've typed in most of the source code to > 2000C' from a printed listing, and have written an assembler in Perl. I must say, that's pretty cool. I used to have some other HP2000 programs, but the only one I found the other day was a listing that I'd printed on a Silent 700 terminal. Environmental effects have darkened the thermal paper to make it nearly unreadable. A bit of squinting for a day or two might surmount that problem. > I'd be interested in getting copies of those paper tapes, and anything > else you might have that could be run on a 2000. Naturally I'm willing > to pay copying and postage costs. As I consider the paper tapes priceless, you'd have to be willing to put up a serious chunk of change in escrow in case anything happened to them. Better that you wait for me stage them to a newer format. > I'll make accounts on the simulated 2000 available once it's running. If you need BASIC programs to run on your simulator, keep a close watch on E-Bay for books of BASIC games. I saw David Ahl's book 101 BAsic Games the other day; that's for DEC-10 BASIC, but I recall there were some books on HP BASIC back way back when, so one of those books will doubtlessly surface. Another resource for HP 2000 programs would be old issues of Creative Computing (another wonderful magazine killed by the evil Ziff-Davis empire). Good luck; I'll file your message to me in my hobby folder so that I'll have your e-mail address, and once I finally get BIGMES on disk, I'll let you know. -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 08:24:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric/Posting Machine (Was RE: Atari 800 keyboard s) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD7E@TEGNTSERVER> > How much do you want for it, and where is it? It sounds neat. I dunno... lemme think about it. Shipping is likely to be expensive! -dq From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 1 08:32:50 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <02c201bfcb7b$b1a59ce0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: I'm going to try to put up a picture on our site as soon as I can put together some text to go with it. I understand they were very popular with the phone companies. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Yes, I have the additional software you mentioned. > Almost think the machine was ahead of it's time, very swank looking, to well > made (like a tank) and to expensive. Such is often life of good > ideas/creations. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 9:10 PM > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > As I recall, ours has special software, a word processor, a comm > > programme, and something else - a database? We also have Multiplan and > > perhaps Lotus floating around. I think it is one of the nicest of the > > early portables. > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying > case. > > > Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, > Multiplan > > > & Rbase. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's > boot8ing, > > > > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > > > > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works > fine, > > > > even has the carrying case. > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Merle - > > > > > > > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little > > > creation. > > > > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no > image? > > > What > > > > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine > on? > > > > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > > > To: > > > > > Cc: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice > > > little > > > > > > machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS > machine > > > > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it > was > > > > > designed > > > > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in > > > about > > > > > 1983 > > > > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company > called > > > > > Comterm. > > > > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no > > > image > > > > > is > > > > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service > info > > > > > and/or > > > > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 1 09:01:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD84@TEGNTSERVER> > I'm one of the people who still does use paper tape for backup. Not for Any chance you have a spare reader you'd be willing to load? I'd be willing to put up a security desposit for its safe return... -dq p.s. Oh, it's 8-level paper tape, not 5-level (just making sure)... From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 1 09:57:59 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Vax-11 Instruction Set Videos References: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <393679F7.77B16644@rain.org> This is a set of thirteen 3/4" tapes that cover the Vax-11 Instruction Set. They are titled: Instruction Formats & Addressing Modes Lesson 1, Lessons 2 & 3 Integer, Logical, & Branch Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 & 4 Floating Point Instructions Variable Bit Field Instructions Stack & Address Instructions Procedure & Subroutine Instructions Character String Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, lessons 3 & 4 Special Instructions Decimal String Instructions Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 - 5 I am selling these for John as he is doing what I should be doing: emptying the house :).Again, these are on 3/4" tape, NOT VHS. $300 for the set + shipping for about 27 pounds or so. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 12:35:39 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Track Descriptor Header > > 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] > 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] > 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) Insert "Sector Interleave" (will 1 byte suffice = 2 4-bit values?) > 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) > 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) > 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) > 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Special raw disk bytes such as synchronization bytes (as on the Apple ][) will have to be denoted in some fashion. But how? There were anywhere from 8 to 16 8-bit sync bytes (having the value 255) found at the beginning of each track and before each sector that contained two additional zero bits at the end (so they looked like 1111111100). How will these get stored? Perhaps a map could be included with raw track data to specify sync bytes. The map would be a series of bits, each bit corresponding to a byte in the raw track image, a 1 bit meaning the byte is a sync byte and a 0 meaning normal. The bits can be packed into bytes so that a track of 5,472 bytes (roughly the theoretical size of a raw 16-sector Apple ][ disk track) would take 684 additional bytes. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 13:10:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010913.ZM13626@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That's part of the reason I think an encoded format is a bad idea. Hans' > suggestion of a tagged format using XML (or something else) is much better. > It allows for decoding without referring to a central archive, and it's > much more flexible and extensible. Sure, it takes more space, but is that But a lot more volumnious. But this is just my prejudice speaking. Even though I find HTML useful, I hate it. > a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the > sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd > envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly > later mail): I don't like the idea of storing the actual sector data as text though. A single floppy disk could turn into a megabyte or more. I guess in this day and age it doesn't matter much anymore but when I was growing up you had to make every byte count, and I know more than 95% of us here can relate to that. > The nesting tagging allows you to specify things like RX02 floppies, where > the headers are FM but the data is MFM. It also allows you to specify Weird. This is something new to me. But do we really need a markup language to describe this? Instead we can add a Sector Descriptor Header (we were heading in this direction anyway) and have a byte to describe the sector header format and the sector data format for each sector. > different sector sizes on different tracks, or data written in the headers > that doesn't match physical track/sector/side on the original. It also > means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise > inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of > inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same > time, or someone rolled their own. I agree with that. Human readability is definitely a compelling advantage as is the elimination of the need for a centralized database of system descriptions. Well, this is certainly something to consider. A hard-coded format or a markup format? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 13:12:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more thing I forgot to add... On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Track Descriptor Header > > > > 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] > > 1. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] > > 2. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) > > Insert "Sector Interleave" (will 1 byte suffice = 2 4-bit values?) > > > 4. Sectors in this track (1 byte) > > 5. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) > > 6. Bits per byte (1 byte) > > 7. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 15:34:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they were actually recorded. Also, re having a field that denotes the source machine, this seems dangerous. What if the disk has dual directories and is supposed to work on more than one dir structure? What if it's a generic format that works on lots of different machines (like FAT or RT-11, these disks have become de facto interchange standards and often exist w/o ever touching the machines for whom that's a native format)? Also, even if there is a source architecture specifier, I'd rather see this as a short ASCII string rather than a magic number, so that we won't need a central authority to assign the numbers, in most cases it's obvious what short string uniquely identifies the architecture (like with SCSI vendor and device IDs). In any case, this is more information than *real* floppies have! All you (i.e. the computer) need to know in any given instance, is whether this disk is in *your* format, and you'll find that out when you try to read it. Just like a real floppy. The complexity seems to be rapidly getting out of hand, and I wonder whether this is solving problems that don't really come up that often? Having something which treats floppies as a black box, like Teledisk, is handy in some circumstances, but I already dislike Teledisk because it gets you in the silly situation of being unable to reproduce the disk even on the machine for which it is intended. In this regard, an open standard is a big step up from Teledisk, but now that means that in order to reproduce a floppy on its native machine, you have to grab the spec and write a big disk copier utility for that machine, which knows how to parse text tags (please tell me I misunderstood that part) and double-check header formats to make sure they're really vanilla. All instead of simply writing the contiguous binary data out in the native format. I think a nice compromise might be to represent each floppy disk with two files, one of which contains all the data as a straight binary image in whatever's the most sensible order for that machine, which would be convenient for use on the original machine (not to mention emulators), and the other one contains all the fancy headers and sector descriptors, with pointers into the binary image. That would make the images easy to move to/from real disks on the original machine, they'd be easy to manipulate with file system utilities (or something like the Linux loopback device), and you could use the same descriptor file with an arbitrary number of binary image files so there'd be less work involved in cooking up the image files, and they'd use a lot less disk space. The only down side I can think of is how to make sure the matching descriptor file and image file don't get separated from one another. John Wilson D Bit From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Jun 1 15:33:32 2000 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Hi All, One the nice things about this list is the variety of first hand experience that can be called upon to clear up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. Up for review: 1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything about the people that helped design these computers? 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under UV light for an extended period until the memory cells were still light sensitive but would no long hold a charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. 3. This has probably been discussed here before, but .... I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took. 4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair 8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. (Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to get married at the end of April.) Comments welcome, I would like to deallocate the space for the ones that have no real basis in fact. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 15:04:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 10:05:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/97da7e24/attachment.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 1 15:59:33 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells >were still light sensitive but would no long hold a >charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, >you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into >memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had >heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I can't speak for the EPROM legend, having never heard it, but I do know some folks that did this with DRAM. Basically, they took the top off a ceramic DRAM (IIRC, it was a 16Kx1; this was some time ago) and arranged for an image to be focussed on the DRAM. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 1 16:05:48 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Doug Coward To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 2:41 PM Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? >Hi All, > One the nice things about this list is the variety of >first hand experience that can be called upon to clear >up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging >around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. > >Up for review: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? I've never heard of the Mindset PC, but the Amiga story is very nicely told at The Amiga Interactive Guide, at www.amiga.emugaming.com . Follow the Features link, and see "Amiga History" and "The Amiga Corporation 1982-84". Although a team of designers was involved, the person generally credited as "the father of the Amiga" is the late Jay Miner, who came from Atari Corp. via Xymos. From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:08:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of the diskette and vice versa. > Also, re having a field that denotes the source machine, this seems > dangerous. What if the disk has dual directories and is supposed to > work on more than one dir structure? What if it's a generic format > that works on lots of different machines (like FAT or RT-11, these > disks have become de facto interchange standards and often exist w/o > ever touching the machines for whom that's a native format)? Also, Then the machine descriptor would reflect the actual machine that the software was designed to run on. Providing I understand what you are saying, I don't see a problem here. > even if there is a source architecture specifier, I'd rather see this > as a short ASCII string rather than a magic number, so that we won't > need a central authority to assign the numbers, in most cases it's I don't like that because it allows for too much variation in the naming convention. I suppose we can include a database of pre-defined Computer Type strings in the archive creation software but still allow the archiver to type in his/her own to allow for new computers. The Computer Typer strings can be contained in a textfile that can be updated regularly and downloaded from the homepage for the project. > obvious what short string uniquely identifies the architecture (like > with SCSI vendor and device IDs). That works because each SCSI vendor creates one string that they use. If we have multiple people creating their own strings for computer names then it gets messy. Something to ponder though... > In any case, this is more information than *real* floppies have! All you > (i.e. the computer) need to know in any given instance, is whether this disk > is in *your* format, and you'll find that out when you try to read it. Just > like a real floppy. This is not just for the computer's sake but for the humans who are archiving it as well. We need to know what this disk is (hmmm, need to add a Title string) rather than have to make silly guesses. Besides, diskettes DO have this information, generally on the label :) > The complexity seems to be rapidly getting out of hand, and I wonder > whether this is solving problems that don't really come up that often? I don't think it's getting out of hand at all. I see a clear end to the current design process. I'd hate to make a "standard" that doesn't address all the various needs of every different floppy format and then end up having to extend the standard later or not have it adopted due to it's limited usefulness. We have the ability right now to think, argue, recommend, specify and commit and so we might as well try to do it as rightly as possible. > Having something which treats floppies as a black box, like Teledisk, is > handy in some circumstances, but I already dislike Teledisk because it gets > you in the silly situation of being unable to reproduce the disk even on > the machine for which it is intended. In this regard, an open standard is Well, we are trying to create an archive standard that does allow a physical disk to be re-created from an archive. > a big step up from Teledisk, but now that means that in order to reproduce > a floppy on its native machine, you have to grab the spec and write a big > disk copier utility for that machine, which knows how to parse text tags > (please tell me I misunderstood that part) and double-check header formats > to make sure they're really vanilla. All instead of simply writing the > contiguous binary data out in the native format. What I envision is that the software component on the target machine will only require the following abilities: a) read floppy in logical or raw format b) write floppy in logical or raw format c) send/receive archive data over a serial or parallel port I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard turns into a big messy markup language. Once this standard is close to complete I intend to develop either a Linux or DOS-based demo archival application as well as the utility software for the Apple ][ to evaluate the workability of the standard before it is committed to. > I think a nice compromise might be to represent each floppy disk with > two files, one of which contains all the data as a straight binary > image in whatever's the most sensible order for that machine, which > would be convenient for use on the original machine (not to mention > emulators), and the other one contains all the fancy headers and > sector descriptors, with pointers into the binary image. That would This is a circular specification. What you need in order to create a "no-nonsense" archive IS the standard we are attempting to define, because every machine will invariably have some wacky formats that won't allow a sensible, straight-forward archive to be made. This needs to be taken into account. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 1 16:13:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000601160727.02531a60@pc> At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, Doug Coward wrote: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? If you have a list of people who worked on Mindset, I'm sure we can compare it to the more-well-known list of people who worked on the Amiga. Did you ever see this rumor in print? Or where did it come from? >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells I remember RAM chip-based cameras, not EPROM. I remember a magazine project for the Apple II. Early Byte, maybe? >4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, >that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just >a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair >8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. This is well-documented... or at least Ed Roberts has maintained this alibi over the years. Supposedly they shipped the first unit to R-E for the cover shot, but it never made it. Cynics say it wasn't ready. I, too, wonder why you'd send a "real" unit for a beauty shot, when the empty case would do the same. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 1 16:04:20 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000601155529.01f27c90@pc> At 12:42 AM 6/1/00 -2300, Tony Duell wrote: >Try to use the laser scanner block from a >laser printer for this, together with a suitable detector). You could >probably enlarge an area from the film, print it onto photographic paper and >scan it with a normal flatbed scanner. Hmm, a few messages back I was wondering if today's low-price LED laser printers had a dense linear array of LEDs that exposed the drum, and that this array could be used to print a matrix to the film. I've mentioned http://www.paperdisk.com/ before, perhaps some would like to revisit this technology. The problem is, laser-print melted plastic "ink" sticks to itself, and to paper, and suffers when the enclosing medium is out-gassing volatiles... I like the ideas about digitizing the stream of raw disk data. I imagine it would be possible to perform some software-based analysis and repair, rendering previously scrogged disks readable. Or perhaps the forensic-style recovery of erased data, reading and averaging adjacent off-center track information. I seem to remember a PDP guy on this list who recovers reel tape data this way, digitizing the raw tracks and processing with software, as opposed to relying on antique hardware methods for decoding the stream. I wish this technology existed for other media, too. I have several hours of out-of-alignment video from a camcorder whose capstans were drifting over the course of months and years. The precious video of my young kids is now unreadable except at random when the position of the heads happens to float into the alignment of when that segment was recorded. - John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 16:19:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >Up for review: >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything >about the people that helped design these computers? I believe that would be Jay Miner. >2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to >build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under >UV light for an extended period until the memory cells >were still light sensitive but would no long hold a >charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, >you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into >memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had >heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. Nope, but you could remove the cover off a Dynamic RAM and do this. It was the basis for the "cyclops" camera. I have a couple of RAMs I did this to (they still work too!) The theory is that the photons knock the charge off the capacitors turning 1 bits into zero bits. The way it was used most effectively was to write all ones, then scan it about 16 times recording the bit pattern each time. Bright light turned bits to zero immediately, less light took longer. The resulting 16 scans could be converted into a 4 bit grey scale image. Check back issues in Byte for the Steve Ciarcia article on this, and later the "OPTICRam" which was a commercialized version. >3. This has probably been discussed here before, but .... >I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy >diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside >edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is >is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first >form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took. Eric Smith has all the skinny on this one. >4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, >that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just >a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair >8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. >(Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it > might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single > sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to > get married at the end of April.) My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus delayed first shipments. --Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 1 16:20:08 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3936D388.CBE7EAF2@mainecoon.com> Doug Coward wrote: > Up for review: > 1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > about the people that helped design these computers? Urg. Kinda. Around 1982 at Atari Corporate Research we had a project to develop a laptop computer designed for games which was 68K based with custom video and audio hardware. Most of this stuff never saw the light of day, but the sound hardware sticks in my mind as something that made it to the point of being a functional prototype. After Atari went nova the rumor was that many of the refugees of the audio effort ended up at Amiga and that many of the video guys ended up at Mindset. I certainly recognized a few of the names on the inside of the A1000 we used to develop the Hurricane as being refugees from Atari, as well as one guy who was a refugee from BTI (of the BTI 5000 and dreaded 8000 fame). -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Jun 1 16:20:51 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:20 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Doug Coward wrote: > Hi All, > One the nice things about this list is the variety of > first hand experience that can be called upon to clear > up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging > around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer. [snip] > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. In the very early 80's. Steve Ciarcia (Micromint) designed an Apple II 'camera' that used this concept... it had a the chip behind a common c-mount TV lens, an interface board, and software to manage the image, do simple dithering, print the images, etc. The one I owned is now on it's way to Hans Franke... so he might be able to report on it if he gets it up and running. Cheers John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 15:48:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Jun 1, 0 01:33:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/02d155ce/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:32:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601213210.11615.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > No, the trick (as used in SOS, and in the Lisa I/O card ROM) is to > do 1:1 interleave *without8 a track buffer. They directly denibblize > as they're reading the bits from the disk. Sellam Ismail wrote: > I didn't think the ][ was fast enough to do that? That's why I called it a "trick". After all, everyone knows that a 1 MHz 6502 isn't fast enough to do disk control in software at all! :-) Woz's design is a classic example of "thinking outside the box". IIRC, he was quoted somewhere as saying that he didn't previously have any knowledge of the design of disk controllers, so he just designed what he thought would be necessary. Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips as some of them. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 1 16:32:42 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000601173242.20200db6@trailing-edge.com> >I like the ideas about digitizing the stream of raw disk data. >I imagine it would be possible to perform some software-based >analysis and repair, rendering previously scrogged disks readable. >Or perhaps the forensic-style recovery of erased data, reading >and averaging adjacent off-center track information. > >I seem to remember a PDP guy on this list who recovers reel tape >data this way, digitizing the raw tracks and processing with >software, as opposed to relying on antique hardware methods for >decoding the stream. That would've been me, I think :-). It really is straightforward to do today - a PC, a few hundred dollars of investment for the A/D hardware and cabling, an old 9-track or 7-track drive that you can set up to spool forward at a constant rate, and you've got the hardware side done. The analysis software is where the real magic occurs - look up "PRML" in a good engineering or math bookstore and you'll be on the right path. Incorporating the data from non-flaky channels to recover the data in the flaky channel is easy for 1/2" magtapes because of the existence of both longitudinal and horizontal parity bits. The same techniques work for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppies, too. You don't have the luxury of parity channels there, but PRML techniques put you way ahead of traditional data separators. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:34:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: Current iteration: Desk Descriptor Header 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) 4. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] Optional: 5. Archiver Name (24 bytes) 6. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) 7. Disk Title (64 bytes) 8. Publisher (if applicable) (24 bytes) 9. Year of Publication (2 bytes) A. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) B. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) C. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) ***Does it make sense to have separate fields as specified #7-9 or should we rely upon the archivist to include that data in the description? I think so since this is important information that should be forced to be included with the archive. Maximum size: 685 bytes [1] If applicable Note: Encoding type moved to Track Descriptor Header A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall description of the track: Track Descriptor Header 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] 2. Disk Side (1 byte) 3. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] 4. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) 6. Encoding type (1 byte) 7. Sectors in this track (1 byte) 8. Interleave (1 byte) 9. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) A. Bits per byte (1 byte) B. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) Size: 15 bytes [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-9 are ignored. [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. I can start to see where the flexibility afforded by a markup language makes sense. I just can't figure out why I am still resisting it though. So, are we on the right track? The wrong track? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 15:36:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > Although a team of designers was involved, the person generally credited as > "the father of the Amiga" is the late Jay Miner, who came from Atari Corp. > via Xymos. When did Jay Miner pass away? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:38:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> (dcoward@pressstart.com) References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <20000601213800.11665.qmail@brouhaha.com> > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I don't think that would work. I've cooked EPROMs for months without any change in their functioning. More likely, you could marginally program all the bits, or program them solidly then erase until they're marginal. Then outside light would move them across the threshold. However, this would be *extremely* sensitive to temperature and supply voltage. I doubt it could be made even slightly practical. On the other hand, if you pop the top off an old DRAM (made before they started adding opaque passivation layers), they make a servicable imaging element, if you don't mind the gaps between the quadrants (which would also be found in EPROMs). There were actually some products that used this technique, and Micron sold DRAMs packaged for this purpose. From transit at lerctr.org Thu Jun 1 16:39:22 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > From: Doug Coward > > > >Up for review: > >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > >about the people that helped design these computers? > > > I've never heard of the Mindset PC, http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art24.htm From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 16:39:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601213950.11699.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. Sellam Ismail wrote: > I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of > the diskette and vice versa. I have no idea what you mean by that. The Apple ][ disk format has no concept of "side". There's no field in the address mark for a side designation. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jun 1 16:44:01 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> from Doug Coward at "Jun 1, 2000 01:33:32 pm" Message-ID: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > 4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age, > that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just > a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair > 8800 where filled until April 1, 1975. > (Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it > might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single > sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to > get married at the end of April.) > The original Altair prototype was lost while being shipped to Popular Electronics. Thus, the picture on the front cover of the magazine was indeed an empty case. The article contains pictures of the prototype which were taken before it was shipped. Those photos show a computer with no bus, instead the boards were connected using ribbon cable. Ed Roberts came up with a new design for the replacement, which included a bus with room for additional cards, and a 'powerful' 8-amp power supply, installed in an 'Optima' cabinet. Source: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer. -Lawrence LeMay From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 16:56:54 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin>; from mgregory@vantageresearch.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 03:05:48PM -0600 References: <00ce01bfcc0d$356c62c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <20000601175654.A23311@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 03:05:48PM -0600, Mark Gregory wrote: >I've never heard of the Mindset PC, It was a wicked cool 80186-based PC, just barely PC-compatible enough to get your hopes up but that's about where it ended. It had really snazzy (for the time) graphics and sound hardware, weird keyboard (IIRC the power switch was on it and actually sent scan codes rather than controling the PS directly), and a timer which among other things could be programmed to turn the machine on and off. Came out around '84 I think, and disappeared pretty quickly. I remember seeing an ACP ad selling the bare boxes off for $200 a couple of years later, still kicking myself for not buying one. John Wilson D Bit From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jun 1 16:56:41 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Up for review: > >1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed > >the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not > >designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything > >about the people that helped design these computers? > > I believe that would be Jay Miner. You're saying Jay Miner worked on the Mindset? Both the Mindset and the Amiga were released in 1984, right? It seems unlikely that they were designed by the same guy(s). I've never heard this particular bit of folklore, though. > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was > the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS > was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus > delayed first shipments. Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that is second-hand. Cheers, Doug From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:03:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601213210.11615.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > After all, everyone knows that a 1 MHz 6502 isn't fast enough to do disk > control in software at all! :-) Woz's design is a classic example of > "thinking outside the box". IIRC, he was quoted somewhere as saying > that he didn't previously have any knowledge of the design of disk > controllers, so he just designed what he thought would be necessary. But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, > any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's > design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips > as some of them. 6 to be exact. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:08:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601213950.11699.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I know that's true on the Apple ][. Side "1" is actually the backside of > > the diskette and vice versa. > > I have no idea what you mean by that. The Apple ][ disk format has no > concept of "side". There's no field in the address mark for a side > designation. Of course not. But because of the head orientation on Apple disk drives, the backside of the disk is what actually holds the "side 1" data. Say for instance you had a bad sector on a "one-sided" diskette caused by a physical defect and you looked at the front surface of the disk through the head notch looking for the defect. You wouldn't see it. You'd have to flip the disk over to see the defect. But of course, you knew this :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 16:14:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art24.htm Nice little summary article. >From that: "Aquarius Mattel When Mattel demonstrated this computer at a trade show in 1983, employees had to conceal one of the keys with masking tape. For some bizarre reason known only to Matte l engineers, the Aquarius had a convenient key that instantly rebooted the computer and wiped out all your data." It was called the RESET key and I hated it. They at least designed a little ridge around it so it was harder to accidentally press. However, I remember you could do a CTRL-C or some other control key sequence and "undo" the RESET (basially it would cancel the reset and put you back where you just were). When you first turned the Aquarius on, you had a little intro screen that said whatever, something like "Mattel Aquarius" ... "Press any key to continue". When you pressed a key it initialized BASIC and plopped you into a prompt. Pressing the RESET key apparently didn't erase the memory but just took you to the initial startup screen, so it was made possible to back out of a RESET using the control key sequence. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Jun 1 17:19:57 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <014a01bfcc17$881bca60$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Tech Rumors/Legends? > >When did Jay Miner pass away? > June 20, 1994. For a full bio, see http://www.jms.org/jay-miner.html Mark. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 1 17:25:30 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601141358.02315740@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601152223.00ca8660@208.226.86.10> At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote: > > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was > > the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS > > was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus > > delayed first shipments. > >Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The >only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that >is second-hand. Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while. --Chuck From stan at netcom.com Thu Jun 1 17:22:19 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> Hello all, I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: APPLE COMPUTER INC. 820-0510-A c1993 It also has a chip on it with the label: 341S0021 c 1983-93 Apple ^ | |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm beginning to think it's not. Any clues are greatly appreciated! Thanks, Stan From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 17:28:44 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:08:47PM -0700 References: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:08:47PM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Then the machine descriptor would reflect the actual machine that the >software was designed to run on. Who says it's software? What if it's a data disk? Or a totally unknown one? Or something that's portable (e.g. an interpreted language). It just seems like it could cause trouble if the image were hard-wired to claim it's from one particular place. Especially if they get tagged incorrectly, then utilities which *could* read the disk will refuse, and ones which *can't* will screw themselves up trying because they believe the header. >I'd hate to make a "standard" that doesn't >address all the various needs of every different floppy format and then >end up having to extend the standard later or not have it adopted due to >it's limited usefulness. The opposite extreme is to not have it adopted because it's too complex to be practical. It's definitely a good thing to anticipate future needs, but I wouldn't get too hung up with the notion that this format will be all things to all people. There will always be a few oddballs out there which won't fit the framework, whatever it is. >We have the ability right now to think, argue, >recommend, specify and commit and so we might as well try to do it as >rightly as possible. Absolutely, that's why I jumped in. I've written a bunch of floppy utilities, and picturing extending any of them to work with verbose tagged free-form text files with redundant header descriptors and lots of magic numbers, is giving me a headache. One aspect of doing it right, is doing it so that it can be implemented cleanly. >I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern >host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want >the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard >turns into a big messy markup language. Careful, this is a *very* common pitfall these days. "I'll just assume that everyone in the world has access to the same modern hardware and software that I do." This was my point about Teledisk (especially since it's a bit flakey even on a real PC). If I have a Pro/350 and I want to write a DECmate II disk, there's no technical reason why I can't do it (the low-level format is the same so it's trivial), so why create an artificial limitation by depending on a big complicated C program which doesn't run on the Pro? >This is a circular specification. What you need in order to create a >"no-nonsense" archive IS the standard we are attempting to define, because >every machine will invariably have some wacky formats that won't allow a >sensible, straight-forward archive to be made. This needs to be taken >into account. IMHO, that's *their* problem. If a disk format is so weird that there isn't even any way to decide what would come first in a binary snapshot, then *that* format should have a big tangled mass of header descriptors etc. But that doesn't mean that *every* format needs to have a hairy wad of descriptors intermingled with the data. As an analogy, I *really* like the Kermit file transfer protocol. It's designed to be a very good compromise between capability and ease of implementation. There are lots of possible bells and whistles but most of the time you can get away without them. It has a few basic assumptions which don't hold true for *all* systems (files are a linear sequence of 8-bit bytes, filenames can be represented in ASCII, the serial line can pass any ASCII printing character through), but they fit the vast majority of real systems. It works around most of the common problems in file transfer, but it's simple enough that you can write a basic native Kermit implementation for almost any architecture in a few days. John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 17:39:45 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601223945.12214.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam Ismail writes: > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages that did it. I wrote: >> Once the Intel 8271, WD 1771, and similar FDC chips became available, >> any idiot could "design a disk controller". But if you compare Woz's >> design with other pre-FDC-chip designs, Woz's has 1/10 as many chips >> as some of them. Sellam wrote: > 6 to be exact. 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really part of the disk controller. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 17:41:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601224154.12243.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Of course not. But because of the head orientation on Apple disk drives, > the backside of the disk is what actually holds the "side 1" data. Aside from the fact that there *isn't* a side 1, that's not different than any other 5.25-inch single-side drive. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:42:44 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... Message-ID: <20000601224244.73262.qmail@hotmail.com> FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 1 17:49:09 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! (Stan Perkins) References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> Message-ID: <14646.59493.115107.152332@phaduka.neurotica.com> Sounds like a video frame grabber to me... -Dave McGuire On June 1, Stan Perkins wrote: > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Stan From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:51:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Rumor/Legend #3 Message-ID: <20000601225145.68626.qmail@hotmail.com> Welllll... as for the whacked out missing-corner looking disks, I can confirm this... I have an ancient Memorex 651 floppy disk drive, and this thing is circa 1973-74.. And those are the disks it uses... it CANNOT use "normal" disks. FYI, there are at least two types of those disks, FD IV and FD V, not sure what the diff is but I will look it up in the manual later tonight. I have around 40 or so of those weird disks... They are also notable (IMHO) for being freakishly colored... Indeed, you can easily tell FD IV's and FD V's apart by the fact that FD IV disks are icky 70's orange, while FD V disks are a funky dark blue sort of color. I actually have 3 other clone disks from Information Terminals (the chicken company!) too, but I couldn't tell ya if they're FD IV or FD V clones.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:58:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: "Doug Coward" "Tech Rumors/Legends?" (Jun 1, 13:33) References: <4.1.20000601114640.00c25540@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <10006012358.ZM14067@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 13:33, Doug Coward wrote: > 2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to > build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under > UV light for an extended period until the memory cells > were still light sensitive but would no long hold a > charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window, > you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into > memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had > heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it. I've not heard of an EPROM used this way, but DRAMs certainly have been. It's possible, with care, to remove the metal lid from some ceramic-packaged DRAMs and add a lens. The memory cells are light sensitive; the more light, the faster the charge leaks away, so the scheme is to write 1's into all locations, pause, then read them back. Unfortunately, on most DRAMs, the relationship between logical address and physical location in the array is not simply "add 256 for the next row", so some decoding is necessary. However, at least one DRAM does have such a simple mapping, and was sold for the purpose. I'm sure it was described in one of Steve Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar articles in Byte, around 1982, but I can't find it amongst my reprints. Anyone? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:35:55 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 1, 11:10) References: Message-ID: <10006012335.ZM14057@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 11:10, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > But a lot more volumnious. But this is just my prejudice speaking. Even > though I find HTML useful, I hate it. It needn't be a whole lot more voluminous. The tags should be concise, there's no need to write an essay for each part. Keywords might be a good idea. Tags would be omitted if irrelevant (as many would be for a "raw" archive, or for a common format with no "funnies"). So a disk descriptor might look something like this: {Apple ][<00>soft<00>trks:<40><00>rpm:<15><255><00>{trk:<00><00>logical<00> length:<12><34><00>sectors:<10>{sector:<00><00>{sync{bytes:<16><00>value:<255><00>}{header:GCR<00>trk:<00><00>sec:<00><00>physsec:<00><00>head:<00><00>size:<00><01><00>}{data:< ---256 binary bytes---- >crc:<00>}}sector: [repeat as reqd] }}{track: [repeat as reqd] }} I can't remember some details like the size of a DOS 3.3 track or what the sync bytes are so that's just an stylistic example. The opening "{" marks the start of an object and is matched by a closing "}"; braces are nested because objects are nested. Variable-length strings like "Apple ][" are terminated by some agreed control character (I used ASCII NUL, <00>). Numeric values are stored in binary (actually it might make more sense to store them in ASCII where they follow a string description, but probably not for a block of sector data). So "rpm" is stored as a 2-byte representation of 360. Hmm, we'd need to decide if it's little-endian or big-endian -- or add another tag! > > a problem? The tags don't all need to be ASCII text, things like the > > sector size could be integers, and field lengths could be limited. I'd > > envisage something like nested objects (borrowing from Sellam's slightly > > later mail): > > I don't like the idea of storing the actual sector data as text though. I hadn't meant to imply that; I mean you could hexify it if you wanted, but I don't see any need. Actually one of the things I was thinking of earlier today, was Acorn's "DrawFile" format, which uses similar objects, but the data is still binary (it's a computer program that reads the data, not a human). If a human really did need to read it, you could always use a hex editor. > I guess in this > day and age it doesn't matter much anymore but when I was growing up you > had to make every byte count, and I know more than 95% of us here can > relate to that. Yup, I was too, but I think here the benefits greatly outweigh the disadvantage of extra storage requirement. We want this to be as useful as possible, and the easier it is to use for unexpected formats (to create *and* to read), the more it will get used. > > It also > > means that if the database is lost, damaged, incomplete or otherwise > > inaccesible, an archive can still be understood, and there's no chance of > > inconsistency because two people tried to add new formats at about the same > > time, or someone rolled their own. > > I agree with that. Human readability is definitely a compelling advantage > as is the elimination of the need for a centralized database of system > descriptions. It would still be good to have a central repository. At the very least, it would allow those who know where to look, to see what has already been dealt with, and save a lot of design effort if the format they want is already there. It would be the place to store the explanation of the tag system. Plus, the bigger it gets, the more it will encourage others to archive their treasures, too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 1 17:44:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:27 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: John Wilson "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 1, 16:34) References: <20000601163418.A23116@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <10006012344.ZM14061@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 16:34, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:12:11AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Insert "Disk Side (Head)" (1 byte) > > Hard or soft head number? I feel sure I ran into a format (Commodore?) where > the sector headers had the opposite head numbers to the side on which they > were actually recorded. This is also true on some Acorn disks, and I'm sure I've run across it elsewhere, where the "head" value encoded in each sector header is always "0", because the second side is treated as tracks 80-159 instead of each cylinder being two tracks distinguished by head number. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:57:43 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 Message-ID: <20000601225743.65115.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, if you seek to install VMS 5.2, then you have no problem... simply kindly ask me for the use of my VMS 5.2 RL02 stand-alone backup cartridge, never used, was sealed in the box when I got it... And no, the shock meter was NOT red ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:58:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <20000601225809.16350.qmail@hotmail.com> >Nice little summary article. > >From that: > >"Aquarius > >Mattel > >When Mattel demonstrated this computer at a trade show >in 1983, employees >had to conceal one of the keys with >masking tape. For some bizarre reason >known only to >Matte l engineers, the Aquarius had a convenient key >that >instantly rebooted the computer and wiped out all >your data." > >It was called the RESET key and I hated it. They at >least designed a >little ridge around it so it was harder >to accidentally press. However, I >remember you could do >a CTRL-C or some other control key sequence and >"undo" >the RESET (basially it would cancel the reset and put >you back >where you just were). > >When you first turned the Aquarius on, you had a little >intro screen that >said whatever, something like "Mattel >Aquarius" ... "Press any key to >continue". When you >pressed a key it initialized BASIC and plopped you >into a prompt. > >Pressing the RESET key apparently didn't erase the >memory but just took >you to the initial startup screen, >so it was made possible to back out of >a RESET using the >control key sequence. > >Sellam International Man >of Intrigue and >Danger >--------------------------------------------------------->---------------------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for >details! One thing I'm surprised that did not make it onto that list it the Macintosh Portable (it probably was #21 or thereabouts). If the DG/1 required Superman to pick it up, I don't want to know who they would have required to pick it up! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:00:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Who says it's software? What if it's a data disk? Or a totally > unknown one? Or something that's portable (e.g. an interpreted > language). It just seems like it could cause trouble if the image > were hard-wired to claim it's from one particular place. Especially > if they get tagged incorrectly, then utilities which *could* read the > disk will refuse, and ones which *can't* will screw themselves up > trying because they believe the header. In that case perhaps we can have generic group meta codes, such as "CP/M", etc. > The opposite extreme is to not have it adopted because it's too complex to > be practical. It's definitely a good thing to anticipate future needs, but > I wouldn't get too hung up with the notion that this format will be all > things to all people. There will always be a few oddballs out there which > won't fit the framework, whatever it is. Yes, but in it's current iteration it is not very complex at all. Detailed, yes. Complex, no. It's being designed to allow a very simple, straight foward archive to be created in the case of no special considerations (i.e. a "standard" floppy disk) while still being powerful enough to allow a very bizarre format to be described as well. I think the balance is being achieved. > Absolutely, that's why I jumped in. I've written a bunch of floppy > utilities, and picturing extending any of them to work with verbose tagged > free-form text files with redundant header descriptors and lots of magic > numbers, is giving me a headache. One aspect of doing it right, is doing > it so that it can be implemented cleanly. Agreed. > >I envision all the post- and pre-processing will be done on a more modern > >host, such as a standard PC running Linux or whatnot. I would never want > >the processing done on the target machine, especially if this standard > >turns into a big messy markup language. > > Careful, this is a *very* common pitfall these days. "I'll just assume > that everyone in the world has access to the same modern hardware and > software that I do." I don't imagine anyone will be attempting to create a multi-gigabyte archive on a Sinclair ZX80. The point is this archive will be carried forward onto ever more powerful computers, and limiting it to be feasible on technology that has long been passed by makes no sense to me. Linux will run on a 386, a 68K Mac, an Atari ST, and the Amiga. I'm satisfied with that. > This was my point about Teledisk (especially since it's a bit flakey even > on a real PC). If I have a Pro/350 and I want to write a DECmate II disk, > there's no technical reason why I can't do it (the low-level format is the > same so it's trivial), so why create an artificial limitation by depending > on a big complicated C program which doesn't run on the Pro? Take the specification and write an archive application that will run on the Pro/350. As stated above, the standard as it is being defined is not difficult to implement. And as I mentioned before, I'm considering writing a DOS application to implement the standrad once it's near completion. The point is I don't see this as a legitimate concern. The standard is not currently constructed to require a computer with gobs of memory, even if it does evolve into a markup language. > IMHO, that's *their* problem. If a disk format is so weird that there isn't > even any way to decide what would come first in a binary snapshot, then *that* > format should have a big tangled mass of header descriptors etc. But that > doesn't mean that *every* format needs to have a hairy wad of descriptors > intermingled with the data. I agree, and the way I am seeing the standard evolve will not require massive headers for standard formatted disks. It may not look like it now but that is what is in the back of my mind as we move forward with this. We're still really in the gathering phase so don't get frustrated just yet. As statedin so many words before, the standard will be designed intelligently enough to archive a standard diskette in a simple, straight forward manner, but also allow the complexity to archive a completely non-standard diskette. > As an analogy, I *really* like the Kermit file transfer protocol. It's > designed to be a very good compromise between capability and ease of > implementation. There are lots of possible bells and whistles but > most of the time you can get away without them. It has a few basic > assumptions which don't hold true for *all* systems (files are a > linear sequence of 8-bit bytes, filenames can be represented in ASCII, > the serial line can pass any ASCII printing character through), but > they fit the vast majority of real systems. It works around most of > the common problems in file transfer, but it's simple enough that you > can write a basic native Kermit implementation for almost any > architecture in a few days. We'll try to develop this standard in the same spirit. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:02:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601223945.12214.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam Ismail writes: > > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > > If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages > that did it. I'll take your word for it. > Sellam wrote: > > 6 to be exact. > > 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really > part of the disk controller. Oh well, I usually get the number wrong no matter how many times I look at a ][ controller. At any rate, it's amazing. I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 1 18:07:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> from "Stan Perkins" at Jun 01, 2000 03:22:19 PM Message-ID: <200006012307.QAA26576@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots. > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones on there. > Any clues are greatly appreciated! Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a 68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93 http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris or a Quadra. Zane From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 17:17:00 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC Message-ID: Here's something I pondered the other day: Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? ^^^^ Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell under the designation of "AppleSoft". Something tells me Eric may know this. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 18:23:59 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com><14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20000531190346.16843.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3936F08E.A4B31B91@cheta.net> I run Netscape Communicator 4.7 on my 25mhz single-processor SparcStation 330 and don't think performance is horrible. It takes about 90 seconds to launch Netscape but only four seconds to launch subsequent copies. For an 11 year-old machine it is excellent! I say this in response to your comment about the relative nature of the term 'acceptable performance'. My AMD k63-400 running OS/2 Warp 4 takes less than a second to launch Netscape 4.61 from scratch..... Jason McBrien wrote: > I've got several machines I use for different purposes. I've got a 700MHz > Athlon with Windoze 'cause Unreal Tournament just sucks on a DECStation 5000 > :) But the DEC makes a really nice webserver, and the SPARCStation 10 can > run Netscape SuiteSpot servers OK but I wouldn't want to run Communicator on > it. > (Netscape is comparatively slow on my Ultra 10 at work) A place for > everything and everything in it's place. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: Finds > > > On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to > > > give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my > opinions > > > of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) > > > > > > Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. > > > > While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation > > of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of > > us fight very hard to keep it alive. > > > > But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely > > subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for > > Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe > > that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the > > only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of > > high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than > > one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. > > > > Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, > > and more power to you! > > > > > > -Dave McGuire > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:35:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 1, 0 02:03:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/da280158/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:38:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 1, 0 02:08:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 961 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/ce763b76/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Jun 1 18:52:18 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> My two cents, in decreasing order of sanity. Maybe it's a little far from the original goal*, but for the cost of a few extra bytes in track/sector numbers, the same format might handle the contents of hard disks. And there's probably a lot fewer "whacko" formatting concerns with those than with floppies - 99.44% of the time, just getting a big pile of sectors might be as much as you'd need. AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. And machines that used hard disks didn't generally fixate on the number of tracks or sectors. (How much of that is true? Discussion?) My reaction to XML et al is generally negative too, and also not for any good reason that I could put my finger on. Maybe it seems like it would be work to parse, and I like to imagine my poor old 8-bitters being able to make use of the images themselves, not just the recipients of an end-product that was produced by a modern machine that digested the image. As I said, it's not entirely a rational concern; those old 8-bitters could do it just as well as any modern machine, given enough time and storage and programming... Maybe that's it, coding up an XML parser for a CoCo seems like it would be much more work than having some byte-by-byte record definition. So maybe you XML supporters need to hit that point a little harder. Speaking of which, maybe some compressed representation of repeated identical sectors could be good. If a floppy was 10% full, and the remaining sectors were full of some "empty" byte pattern, It would be nice if those "empty" sectors didn't take up space in the image. Of course, the image could just omit sectors, but then you'd need intelligence to decide which sectors to omit; almost as bad as needing to know which files to keep. The only way to be safe is to get it all, and maybe take advantage of patterns in the data to compress it a bit. Then again, if I care about image size, I suppose I could always use any standard compression utility on the image. And then I'd want to get decompression going on the TRS-80... Okay, I think it's time to stop babbling. Bill. * I'm _not_ going to make any bad puns about being on the wrong track. :-) On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:34:55, Sellam Ismail wrote: ] Current iteration: ] ] Desk Descriptor Header ] ] 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) ] 2. Hard/soft sector flag (1 byte) ] 3. Number of tracks (1 byte) ] 4. Disk drive RPM (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] ] ] Optional: ] ] 5. Archiver Name (24 bytes) ] 6. Archiver E-mail Address (48 bytes) ] 7. Disk Title (64 bytes) ] 8. Publisher (if applicable) (24 bytes) ] 9. Year of Publication (2 bytes) ] A. Archive Description (256-512 bytes) ] B. Archive Date (4 bytes: 2 bytes = year, 1 byte = month, 1 byte = day) ] C. Archive Time (3 bytes: hour, minute, second) ] ] ***Does it make sense to have separate fields as specified #7-9 or should ] we rely upon the archivist to include that data in the description? I ] think so since this is important information that should be forced to be ] included with the archive. ] ] Maximum size: 685 bytes ] ] [1] If applicable ] ] Note: Encoding type moved to Track Descriptor Header ] ] ] A Track Descriptor Header will precede each track and give an overall ] description of the track: ] ] Track Descriptor Header ] ] 1. Track number (2 bytes: 1 for whole number, 1 for fraction) [1] ] 2. Disk Side (1 byte) ] 3. Track format (logical or raw; host computer specific) (1 byte) [2] ] 4. Track size in bytes (2 bytes) [3] ] 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) (1 byte) ] 6. Encoding type (1 byte) ] 7. Sectors in this track (1 byte) ] 8. Interleave (1 byte) ] 9. Bytes per sector (2 bytes) ] A. Bits per byte (1 byte) ] B. Offset to next Track Descriptor Header (2 bytes) ] ] Size: 15 bytes ] ] [1] Fraction allows for specifying half- or quarter-track. ] [2] If the track is in "raw" format then fields 3-9 are ignored. ] [3] The total size in bytes of the raw track image. ] ] ] I can start to see where the flexibility afforded by a markup language ] makes sense. I just can't figure out why I am still resisting it though. ] ] So, are we on the right track? The wrong track? ] ] Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ] Looking for a six in a pile of nines... ] ] Coming soon: VCF 4.0! ] VCF East: Planning in Progress ] See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 18:58:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000601235835.15224.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Now, which of those you consider to be part of the disk controller I > don't know... Arguably the boot PROM isn't part of the disk controller; it is still perfectly capable of controlling disks without it. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 19:13:26 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu>; from yakowenk@cs.unc.edu on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400 References: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20000601201326.A23652@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- >protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. I've never seen anything like that in person either, but I've heard of PDP-11 software (for an MRI machine I think?) which did do copy protection using bad sectors on a DP: (-emulating) hard disk. Weird... John Wilson D Bit From jlewczyk at his.com Thu Jun 1 19:54:49 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. Can anybody help? [ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] Thanks, John - jlewczyk@his.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 1 20:03:47 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> (jlewczyk@his.com) References: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <20000602010347.10673.qmail@brouhaha.com> "John Lewczyk" asks about the 8530: > A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know > how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff > on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. > [ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] http://www.amd.com/products/npd/techdocs/techdocs.html Near the bottom of the page is a technical manual covering the 8530H and 85C30, and a data sheet and errata sheet on the 85C30. Note that the 85C30 has some additional features that were not available in the NMOS/HMOS part; these should be called out in the docs. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:45:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601182844.B23311@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 1, 0 06:28:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/88cccad7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 1 18:48:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006012335.ZM14057@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 1, 0 10:35:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/0b502409/attachment.ksh From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 20:13:09 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Copy Protection was Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <200006012352.TAA14234@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> <20000601201326.A23652@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39370A25.22E0BCC6@cheta.net> Oh God. The Atari 8-bit was probably king of disk copy protection and the means to break/duplicate that protection. There were long sectors, short sectors , fuzzy sectors, long tracks, short tracks, error sectors, holes in the disk burned by a laser, phantom sectors, crc error sectors, and only HE knows how many others. Some sectors gave different errors at different times, some only appeared at certain times. It was an unbelievably complex, babylon back then. There were hardware mods such as the Happy and the Archiver chipset replacements which would duplicate these difficult disks, software such as the 'black patch' which would remove the protection by patching the maker's code. It was a bloody war. I guess we won for about ten years but protection is back on cd's and we are expected to be willing to buy crippled cd writers which will obey the protection marks. Yea right. Hey Bob Puff! Are you listening? I bet you can come up with a circuit to defeat the code embedded in these drives if anyone can. Directly in answer to the below quote, I have run into software on hard disk that could not be moved from it's spot, or 'ghosted' to another drive. I think this hard drive-based protection scheme went out when operating systems no longer allowed primitive disk access (OS/2, Unix, Windos NT, etcetera). John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 07:52:18PM -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > >AFAIK, nobody wrote quarter-tracks on hard disks, or tried to copy- > >protect software by making bad sectors, or any similarly-goofy stuff. > > I've never seen anything like that in person either, but I've heard > of PDP-11 software (for an MRI machine I think?) which did do copy > protection using bad sectors on a DP: (-emulating) hard disk. Weird... > > John Wilson > D Bit From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Jun 1 20:19:55 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC References: Message-ID: <39370BBB.DF8F90B6@cheta.net> Maybe Microsoft wrote it but I thought that Shepherdson Microsystems had a hand in Apple's Basic as well as writing ProDos. I will poke around for that info. A few months ago I ran across a website which gave a lot of the history of Shepherdson (later Optimized Systems Software). Sellam Ismail wrote: > Here's something I pondered the other day: > > Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > ^^^^ > Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? > I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell > under the designation of "AppleSoft". > > Something tells me Eric may know this. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 1 20:24:17 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian>; from jlewczyk@his.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 08:54:49PM -0400 References: <000401bfcc2d$2743e9a0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <20000601212417.A23802@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 08:54:49PM -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know >how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff >on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. Really? Last time I cared (a few months ago) I had no trouble finding it on Zilog's web site. IIRC they had a single unified doc for all of their SCC chips, and you had to download the chapters as individual PDFs. I've got 'em (about 1.3 MB total), as well as the AMD Am85C30 and Am85C30A PDFs, if you want them just tell me how to send them (email, FTP, etc.). John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Thu Jun 1 22:03:39 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Apple ][ floppy controller/6502 doesn't decode the bytes at the floppy rotation speed. The 6502 copies the encoded bytes (de-serialized by the controller) into memory, then decodes them after the sector has been read. The sector interleave guarantees enough time to decode the data before the next sector is available to be read. I agree, it is an interesting piece of code... clint On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Sellam Ismail writes: > > > But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something > > > tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > > > > If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages > > that did it. > > I'll take your word for it. > > > Sellam wrote: > > > 6 to be exact. > > > > 7 to be exact, if you don't count the boot PROM, which isn't really > > part of the disk controller. > > Oh well, I usually get the number wrong no matter how many times I look at > a ][ controller. At any rate, it's amazing. > > I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one > of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > From jruschme at mac.com Thu Jun 1 22:43:25 2000 From: jruschme at mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <200006020104.UAA18144@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > From: Stan Perkins > Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: If it's what I think, it's actually a PPC 601 PDS (processor direct slot) card. > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) Not that old... but none the less... > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. Sounds like the AV card for the 1st-generation (NUBUS) PowerMacs (6100/7100/8100). > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. More likely, someone removed it from an AV 6100 to install the DOS card. Interesting find, though... > Any clues are greatly appreciated! You're welcome. <<>> From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 1 17:21:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> >Sellam Ismail writes: >> But can you dedcode 6&2 encoded bytes in realtime on a 6502? Something >> tells me it's not fast enough to do this. > >If you're clever enough, you can do it. I previously cited several packages >that did it. Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. Allison From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Jun 1 23:14:27 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: <20000601224244.73262.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a schematic somewhere? Also, why was this considered such an engineering achievement? Thanks! -mac On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of > his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... > > Will J From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 1 23:19:19 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601152223.00ca8660@208.226.86.10> References: Message-ID: <200006020416.e524GHO20790@grover.winsite.com> I also got this from not only Bob Cringely when I read his book and interviewed him , but also when I interviewed Forrest Mims, who was one of the co-founders of MITS and has also written a boatload of magazine articles and ton of project books for Radio Shack. Forrest also said that his first impression of the Microsoft Children was that they were loud and spoiled and complained a lot. Doesn't sound like much has changed...... The Altair on the cover of the Jan 75 PE is a mockup....just a case with the front panel that was cobbled together in a hurry after the original was lost so that they would have something to photograph. BTW....how many of us have that issue? I have both Jan and Feb, and also the Altair 6800 issue. Tried several years ago at Comdex to get Billy G to sign one of the later ones that offered MITS BASIC, but the man has more layers of "people" who treat him like God than the President does..... Date sent: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:25:30 -0700 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org From: Chuck McManis Subject: Re: Tech Rumors/Legends? Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics > > > was the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was > > > returned. MITS was forced to recreate large portions of the design > > > from scratch and thus delayed first shipments. > > > >Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The > >only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that > >is second-hand. > > Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer > club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a > Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member > with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article > to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and > was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while. > > --Chuck > > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 1 20:34:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip Message-ID: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> >A search of the web yielded lots of links, but no datasheet. I want to know >how to program it and its electrical characteristics. You know, the stuff >on a datasheet. Zilog's web site doesn't have it. 8530 is the Zilog SCC chip, as is the 8030. The differ only in bus interface. The 8530 is the non multiplexed bus part. It's a dual channel serial device with DMA and interrupt logic for Z80 series cpus. Programming of the functions are similar to Z80 SIO and related parts in a general way. It's a nontrivial device to use. Contact Zilog for data or check their page under SCC. >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. Allison From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu Jun 1 23:38:38 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... Message-ID: <20000602043954.WXCN2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Mike Cheponis > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:14 AM > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > schematic somewhere? If you want to see a nice picture, see eBay auction 341188950 (ends June 3). From dastar at siconic.com Thu Jun 1 23:37:11 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <200006020342.UAA07836@siconic.com> I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. I'd also like to get a hold of the box the whistle came in. I'm also looking for the October 1971 issue of Esquire magazine that featured the article with John Draper talking about the "blue box". If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me directly at . Thanks! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Jun 2 00:49:04 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000a01bfcc56$42874bc0$013da8c0@Corellian> > 8530 is the Zilog SCC chip, as is the 8030. The differ only in bus interface. > The 8530 is the non multiplexed bus part. > > It's a dual channel serial device with DMA and interrupt logic for Z80 > series cpus. Programming of the functions are similar to Z80 SIO > and related parts in a general way. It's a nontrivial device to use. > >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other > devices. ] > > > You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. Yep. I see the chip on the Lisa IO board and my Mac Logic boards! John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Jun 2 00:43:43 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip Message-ID: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >[ Its the chip used in the Apple Lisa and Mac and LOTS of other devices. ] > > You sure of this?? It's not really friendly to the 68k buses. > > Allison I'm sure. It's in the Mac from day one, in Sun workstations since at least the Sun3 era (and still in one form or another in various sun4c boxes) and in every 68K-based product Software Results made after the Unibus products (the original boards used the COM5025 like the DEC DPV11? DUV11?) I will admit that it is not friendly to the MC68K bus. We used one or two dedicated PALs to handle the interfacing. Additionally, we had an 8Mhz CPU (10Mhz for the VAXBI model), but back when the Z8530 was new, 4Mhz parts were available and later some 6Mhz, but 8Mhz parts didn't come along until way later, long after our designs were done. There's lots of notes in the COMBOARD source code about not wacking on the Z8530 too fast. Eventually, we developed a kind of serial driver to handle swabbing registers, but the first products just used macros to always space out the time between telling the Z8530 which internal register to select and reading/writing that register. Personally, I think it's a cool chip, much cooler than the 8250/16450/16550 family. In addition to an async console for debugging, we pumped 3780, HASP and SNA traffic over them up to 128Kbps (our fastest modem eliminator speed). We only ever sold products for use at 56Kbps (64Kbps in Europe). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From mrdos at swbell.net Fri Jun 2 01:02:35 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: HP 7000 - What is it? Message-ID: <004b01bfcc58$27252f80$54703ed8@compaq> Does anyone know anything about a HP 7000 Series computer? I don't know a lot about old HP systems. Do y'all think it's worth getting? Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/35468385/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 01:01:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000602060118.12861.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The Apple ][ floppy controller/6502 doesn't decode the bytes at the > floppy rotation speed. The 6502 copies the encoded bytes (de-serialized > by the controller) into memory, then decodes them after the sector > has been read. The sector interleave guarantees enough time to decode > the data before the next sector is available to be read. The whole point of this thread is that it *IS* possible for cleverly written code to do 1:1 interleave without the bounce buffer. > I agree, it is an interesting piece of code... It's even *more* interesting. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 01:02:44 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <20000602060244.21738.qmail@hotmail.com> >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal >whistles that >could produce the 2600Hz tone. If you >know the story of John Draper >(a.k.a. Cap'n Crunch) then >you know what I'm talking about. > >I'd also like to get a hold of the box the whistle came >in. I'm also >looking for the October 1971 issue of >Esquire magazine that featured the >article with John >Draper talking about the "blue box". > >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, >please e-mail me >directly at . > >Thanks! > >Sellam International Man >of Intrigue and >Danger >--------------------------------------------------------->---------------------- >Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for >details! I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. Best of luck either way. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 01:04:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <006f01bfcc25$a8319060$7764c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000602060449.12908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years > earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board > either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. Yes. But the part that makes Woz's design interesting is that he did it *without* an FDC, and it only ended up as seven TTL chips *total* (eight if you include the boot PROM). With an FDC chip, there's certainly a range of design styles available; I've seen simple and reasonably elegant designs, and gross disgusting kludges. But the most elegant FDC-based design is still not even in the same class as Woz's design. Note that I'm not claiming that Woz's method would be the right thing to do today. But at the time he did it, it was awesome. From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 2 01:10:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... References: Message-ID: <003101bfcc59$3d11de00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Tony Duell listed them earlier today. There's a schematic in the patent, IIRC. You can always look that up. This particular design was a noteworthy engineering achievement because of two factors. (1) Apple was able to replace the more costly logic board on the drive with one of their own making, which saved a sizeable share of the then still quite costly Shugart SA400 drives, and (2) this scheme which used the local processor to do a lot of the work, including controlling the stepping of the head, also provided DOUBLE DENSITY, which, if one used the usual approach, i.e. a FDC LSI of one sort or another, would cost about $80 at the time, and that was just for the one IC. It required a fair amount of support, a minimum of five or six additional IC's to provide head-load timing, drive and receive the cable, extract clock from the incoming bit stream, and perform the write precompensation. In the technology of the time, it was not uncommon to see a dozen IC's involved. Some systems even provided a DMAC to ensure they tansferred the data quickly enough. In short is was better because it was way cheaper than the conventional design. It worked rather well, too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:14 PM Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > schematic somewhere? > > Also, why was this considered such an engineering achievement? > > Thanks! -mac > > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > > > FYI, Woz even talked about how he thought that his 6-chip design was one of > > his most brilliant ideas, in an interview in Byte in 1984... > > > > Will J > From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 00:20:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: <20000602060244.21738.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for > them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other > phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" > from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some > free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work > for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. C'mon, give me a break. I don't even think the youngest of fools can be that naive :) No, this is purely for historical reasons. I'm developing an exhibit around the now legendary (and now very useless) "blue box". Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 2 03:14:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) References: Message-ID: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2, 0:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > {Apple ][<00>soft<00>trks:<40><00>rpm:<15><255><00>{trk:<00><00>logical<00> > > length:<12><34><00>sectors:<10>{sector:<00><00>{sync{bytes:<16><00>value:<255><00>}{header:GCR<00>trk:<00><00>sec:<00><00>physsec:<00><00>head:<00><00>size:<00><01><00>}{data:< > > ---256 binary bytes---- >crc:<00>}}sector: [repeat as reqd] > > }}{track: [repeat as reqd] }} > > Actually, that seems to give you the worst of all worlds.... > > The 'tags' are in ascii, so they're long, hard to search for, etc. And > yet the data is in binary, so the file is not printable. You can't cat it > to the screen to read the header information. No, but you can easily see it in any sensible editor (my definition of "sensible" has always included the ability to show binary or at least control characters :-))... > I must admit that I find files containing printable text information > mixed up with binary data to be _very_ annoying unless there's a good > reason for doing it. > > If you must use some kind of markup language, at least encode the data as > strings of hex digits, or base-64 encoding or something like that. I don't have any objection to that, in fact I'm inclined to agree, but I felt others don't want to take up more space than necessary. If encoded, I'd go for base64. It's the most efficient of the common schemes (hex, uuencoded, base64), has none of the ambiguities of uuencode (there are some very broken uu..code implementations around, because it's not fully specified), and if anyone does want to read it manually, a decoder is only a few lines of . On the other hand, hex has some advantages: easy to read, very easy to {en,de}code, and it would be more appropriate, perhaps, for binary values in tags (assuming the values weren't just written in ASCII in the first place). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 2 07:18:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Personally, I think it's a cool chip, much cooler than the 8250/16450/16550 Hate 8250 and friends. I'd use S2681 before using an 8250. I do use a lot of 8251s (of part for async). The NEC D7201, Z80-SIO and the SCC however are majorly nice, though complex chips to use. All are fast. I consider the use of the 8250 and clones on PCs to a be a significant limitor of good comm performance. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 2 07:18:33 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle Message-ID: <36.6ae4465.26690019@aol.com> In a message dated 6/2/00 2:31:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > > I'm sorry I can't help you find one. But I hope that you are looking for > > them only for their collectable value. I think that AT&T, and any other > > phone company, has probably long since removed this nice little "feature" > > from the computers that run the lines. So if you're looking to make some > > free phone calls, I don't think it will work. But then again, I don't work > > > for a phone company, so I could be completely wrong on this. > > C'mon, give me a break. I don't even think the youngest of fools can be > that naive :) > > No, this is purely for historical reasons. I'm developing an exhibit > around the now legendary (and now very useless) "blue box". > > Sellam back then, the telco used electromechanical systems which were easy to hack and get away with. nowadays, it's electronic with much more automation and security so its harder to cover one's tracks. i think red boxes still work, but some COCOTs have been modifed to prevent this. DB Young hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 2 07:26:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000602060449.12908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Allison wrote: > > Cant speak for the 6502, but NS* did it with minimal hardware a few years > > earlier and it was a respected design. Not a whole lot of ttl on the board > > either considering it was S100, Boot prom and FDC. > > Yes. But the part that makes Woz's design interesting is that he did > it *without* an FDC, and it only ended up as seven TTL chips *total* > (eight if you include the boot PROM). Well the NS* controller does NOT use an FDC. IF you kick out the bus interface (apple for the most part has none) and the fact that apple used a tweeked disk drive too the NS* controller is really simple with the core being less than 8 or so chips. Of course back in '77 current ttl s100 interfaces usually added 5-7 chips to any IO design. > With an FDC chip, there's certainly a range of design styles available; > I've seen simple and reasonably elegant designs, and gross disgusting > kludges. But the most elegant FDC-based design is still not even in > the same class as Woz's design. I don't know, I"d done a few 765 designs (especially 37c65) that were low on parts and programatically one heck of a lot lighter on the cpu and memory. Though the best one was my first as that was only 11 chips for the whole S100 board and did all FDC standards for 8", 5.25" and 3.5" (excluding off data rate 1.2mb). Stll use that one. > Note that I'm not claiming that Woz's method would be the right thing > to do today. But at the time he did it, it was awesome. Yep, it was cheap. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 2 07:31:17 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD8D@TEGNTSERVER> > I don't think that would work. I've cooked EPROMs for months > without any change in their functioning. So did a partner of mine.... using a homemade eraser made from a UV sterilizer unit taken from a scrapped dialysis machine. It was an Intel eprom, a 2732 or 2764, ceramic case, quartz window. The embedded system we were developing was an auto- mated knife sharpener (not to be a consumer product). During debugging, we had the prototype out of the case. Things were working fine and it was time for the first install into the van (which would drive from restaurant to restaurant doing the knife sharpening thing). Put unit in case, fire up, no operation. Take unit out of case, fire it up, everything works. We looked for warping of the PC board, kinking of cables, and all sort of things that coould glitch the unit out. Nada. Finally, thinking that we were only going to see how the case was screwing with the PC board from inside the assembled unit, we cut an access panel in the aluminum, and shined a flashlight inside. It happened to hit the EPROM window and voila! the unit starts running. After a long call with Intel engineers, it was determined that too much UV could fry the EPROM such that it would only function correctly when light was shining onto the substrate through the window! An EPROM that was afraid of the dark. To get the prototype out the door, we built it a night-lite, and everything was fine. -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 2 07:33:10 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD8E@TEGNTSERVER> Sounds like a cache card for a PowerPC-based Mac. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Perkins [mailto:stan@netcom.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:22 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the > list! > > > Hello all, > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > 820-0510-A c1993 > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > 341S0021 > c 1983-93 Apple > ^ > | > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat > pack chips, > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F > connector (like > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors > labeled "S > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > beginning to think it's not. > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Stan > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jun 2 07:52:12 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? Message-ID: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ divide with them. ------- From owad at applefritter.com Fri Jun 2 08:55:16 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC Message-ID: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > ^^^^ >Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? >I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell >under the designation of "AppleSoft". "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. As in the Apple T-Shirt of fame bearing the dialog box: __________________________________________________ | | | Sorry the AppleSoft engineer "unknown" | | has unexpectedly quit | | | | [Who Cares] [Do Something] | | \ | |__________________________________________________| Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 2 10:26:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? Message-ID: <000602112652.20200edb@trailing-edge.com> Daniel Seagraves wrote, in his classic style of leaving the body of the message devoid of any any actual context as to what he's asking about and requiring a reference to the Subject line: >Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. A *very* popular book for introducing this subject to students these days is _Computer Arithmetic: Algorithms and Hardware Designs_, by Behrooz Parhami. It's a pedantic, general purpose introduction, with an emphasis on conveying a true understanding of the subject through how the bits are actually banged about. An even more pedantic introduction is Donald Knuth's _The Art of Computer Programming, Vol 1: Fundamental Algorithms_. It's probably not so good as a introduction if you're really unfamiliar with the subject already, but it's a true classic in the field, and anyone who has worked in the field goes back to it every so often for some deep insight. For example, I just browsed through it a couple days ago for some grokking of how negative number base arithmetic works. Neat feature: no sign bit necessary! Another good reference, if you've already got some experience with computer architecture books and want to leverage this knowledge, is the IEEE Tutorial titled simply _Computer Arithmetic_ and edited by Earl E. Swartzlander. There's also Kai Hwang's _Computer Arithmetic: Principles, Architecture, and Design_ and Israel Koren's _Computer Arithmetic Algorithms_. I suspect that you just want a cheat-sheet for a few specific applications, in which case there's probably a Schaum's outline paperback that will get you by but without conveying any real understanding about how it works or why it works the way it does. I'm sure your local library has some similar workbook-style textbooks. Perhaps intermediate between the dumbed-down level of Schaum's Outlines and the high-and-lofty ivory tower view of Knuth would be a good numerical analysis text intended for scientists who have to learn the basics of how computers do arithmetic, and how this differs from traditional school-book arithmetic. _Numerical Recipes_ doesn't quite fit the bill, but when I was an undergrad I took several numerical analysis courses and all the textbooks had good, but terse, introductions to computer arithmetic, both fixed and floating-point. Again, I'm sure your local library has some good books. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:16:49 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <20000602161649.87779.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm, if someone writes a way to do all the archiving, I'd be happy to provide my 4381 for some serious processing power ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 2 11:21:16 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:28 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: If you want to archive old 16mm or 8mm movies then VHS is not the way to go. My wife's uncle has made movies of family functions for the last 50 years. I have watched them, lots of 16mm film loading and rewinding involved. He transferred them to VHS about 5 years ago. We did keep the originals. We have had lengthy discussions of how to preserve them for the next 50 years. The 5 year old VHS copies are convenient to view but we can now start to see the loss of crispness due to data bleed-through. There is also a loss of color fidelity. We have discussed CD-ROM and other digital media. Our goal is to keep them for another 100 years and then let the next generation worry about them. It's amazing to see the progression of the development of our lake community in the movies, members of our family have lived here for 72 years. Boats have changed a lot. We keep coming back to analog photographic film, partly because of cost, mainly because of stability. I am investigating how to save/archive photographs from our community that span from 1928, no lake and no water, until now. Saving the photos is easy, recording who is in them is the hard part. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. I helped the community computerized our records about 8 years ago. Up until then we used bound paper ledgers. For historical reasons the ledgers are invaluable because each page reflects then entire history of a lot/home from the original plat until today. We have evolved from DBASE, to Peachtree databases, to Access databases. A computer database is no help to try to figure out why the sewer line was run through my yard and not on the sewer easement in 1960. Written notes in the ledger help me to understand that the rock was in the way and that hand digging was easier through my yard. Now if you want to know why one house is constructed over the water and not on shore that is another story. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Mike Slow day in computer land. From dastar at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 11:26:16 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane Message-ID: <200006021532.IAA08513@siconic.com> I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate bridge and an airplane flying over it: http://www.siconic.com/crap/ascii_bridge.jpg It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. It's yellowed with age because it had been hanging on the wall of the person who originally printed it for I believe a couple decades or so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Jun 2 17:26:39 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L Message-ID: Hello, Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Jun 2 11:48:09 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>; from DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 05:52:12AM -0700 References: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20000602124809.A25127@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 05:52:12AM -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. I'll assume you mean integer math. ADD -- I hope I get this right: For each bit, you have the two input bits, plus one sum output, and also one carry in and one carry out. For the LSB, carry in is zero. The sum output is the XOR of all three inputs (A, B, Cin), i.e. a change in any input will toggle it. The Cout bit is set any time 2 or more of the three inputs are set, so whatever that works out to (the OR of the three possible ANDs would do it, but maybe there's an easier way). SUB: This is done by adding, with one of the inputs (hmm, is "subtrahend" the word???) negated. Two's complement negation is done by complementing all the bits and then adding one. And you can add the one by playing with the Cin bit to the LSB (my mind is going blank, I can't think whether it has to be 1 or 0, the sense of the carry is inverted when subtracting in this way). MUL: This is unsigned, for signed you have to take the absolute value and then negate the result if the XOR of the input sign bits is 1. It works exactly like multiplication by hand, except that you do it in binary, which means you're just multiplying by 0 or 1 so the whole multiplication table can be summed up with the AND operation: - init sum to 0 - cycle through all the bits in A (doesn't matter which order), and for each bit that's a 1, add in B shifted left by that number of places. So really, just AND all the bits of B with that bit, shift it left to the same position, and add it to the sum. - you're done DIV: Once again this is unsigned, signed DIV instructions typically do funny things with the sign of the remainder so check that carefully. Again it works just like long division by hand, only in binary. So instead of wondering how many times the divisor (?) goes into the dividend (?), you just wonder whether it goes in at *all*, since you know the answer for each bit will just be 0 or 1. So you can do it with a comparator and a subtractor, or you can always subtract and decide whether to keep the result depending on whether it borrowed: - init remainder to 0 - for all bits in the dividend, shift one bit left, filling the LSB with a 0 and shifting the bit out of the MSB into the LSB of the remainder (you lose the MSB but it's always 0) - if the remainder is .GE. the divisor, subtract the divisor from the remainder and change the LSB of the (shifted) dividend from 0 to 1 (i.e. INC it) When you're done, the remainder is correct, and what was the dividend is now the quotient. You could have assembled the quotient in its own register (since you're generating it one bit at a time), but those LSBs of the dividend are never used again so this is a cute way to do it all with one shift, and leads to a very short routine in PDP-11 code (11 instructions IIRC). Floating point */+- is exactly the same, but you have to worry about adding and removing leading 1s (in formats that do that), chopping vs. rounding of the LSB, and fixing the exponents to match. MUL and DIV are actually the easiest, since all you have to do is add or sub the exponents and then do the integer * or / operation on the mantissa, you can normalize it again in just one or two shifts. With + and - you have to worry about shifting to align the binary points before you start, and if the exponents are different by more than the size of the mantissa there will be no overlap at all so you have to ignore one or the other argument, depending on the FPU's rounding rules. Once you align the points, do the + or -, and now you have to worry about shifting left to re-normalize. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 2 12:06:38 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, > >Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do >anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. > >Kind regards >-- >Gary Hildebrand > > >ghldbrd@ccp.com | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 2 12:08:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, > >Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do >anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. Well, I've used a Exabyte 8500 on my Amiga 3000, so I would think a 8505XL should work. However, a RZ24L is a low profile 245MB DEC Hard Drive, not a Tape Drive! That's one confused sounding system! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 2 13:27:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602112422.00db91d0@208.226.86.10> At 04:26 PM 6/2/00 -0600, you wrote: >Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back >as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is >a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. This leads to only a couple of possible conclusions: 1) you have a hard disk and the tape drive with the same SCSI ID the disk answered the INQUIRY command, the tape is confused because it keeps getting disk type commands. 2) Someone has told the tape drive it is a disk because they were originally trying to whack the code pages of an RZ24L to make it talk 512 byte (vs 576) byte sectors but they got their SCSI IDs (or bus ids) wrong and rewrote the code page of the tape drive instead. Weird in either case! --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 2 14:56:42 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000602145436.01fa2460@pc> Regarding recording data on analog 35mm film, below is a recent excerpt from a microscopy mailing list, where people were discussing the use of film to record detail, as opposed to CCD imaging techniques: > To begin to answer Jeremy's question directly, we need to know > how much detail a Technical Pan negative can record. The figures > depend on processing technique and the test object luminance and > contrast, but the modulation transfer function figures published by > Kodak indicate that a spatial frequency in excess of 200 cycles per > mm is easily recordable. For a test object with contrast 100:1 they > quote 320 line pairs per mm. The CCD pixel spacing required to > achieve this feat would be 640 pixels per mm. That equates to a > requirement for 15360 x 23040 pixels to match the resolving power > of a 24x36mm Technical Pan exposure. That's 0.35 Giga pixels in > round numbers. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 15:31:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >If you want to archive old 16mm or 8mm movies then VHS is not the way to go. >My wife's uncle has made movies of family functions for the last 50 years. >I have watched them, lots of 16mm film loading and rewinding involved. He You seem to have in abundance the most critical ingredient, INTEREST. Well maybe its more commitment, but for many preservation projects people want to do it, but it isn't a holy grail search. Time and money may flow unevenly, and most often squabbles on the details results in a single person having the project dumped on them. When I do our "family" project, its going to be film to CDR, followed by a survey of all who get the CDR of who is in what pictures. I will "try" to preserve as much of the original film sources as I can, but each time something happens (mouse, bug, temp, humidity) a lot of damage can occur. As each year goes by the likelyhood of someone wanting to go back to the original film keeps getting smaller and smaller. I worry if I don't have it done soon, nobody will be alive that wants to see it, or has any clue to who is who. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 15:55:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! In-Reply-To: <3936E21B.10DB9397@netcom.com> References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >Hello all, > >I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > >APPLE COMPUTER INC. >820-0510-A c1993 Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066 Apple part# 820-0510-A Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac 61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a camcorder or VCR for editing and playback. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 2 15:23:21 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane In-Reply-To: <200006021532.IAA08513@siconic.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate >bridge and an airplane flying over it: >It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is >roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the largest file: FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. - John From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 15:07:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <39370BBB.DF8F90B6@cheta.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Technoid Mutant wrote: > Maybe Microsoft wrote it but I thought that Shepherdson Microsystems > had a hand in Apple's Basic as well as writing ProDos. > > I will poke around for that info. A few months ago I ran across a > website which gave a lot of the history of Shepherdson (later > Optimized Systems Software). Here it is: http://www.laughton.com/Apple/Apple.html It's a nice little historyon Apple DOS. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 2 17:12:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: <200006020342.UAA07836@siconic.com> Message-ID: >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could >produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. >Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me >directly at . http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346814958 Bid is $19 so far. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 2 16:18:05 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane" (Jun 2, 15:23) References: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> Message-ID: <10006022218.ZM15040@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2, 15:23, John Foust wrote: > I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from > someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the > largest file: > > FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > > where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be > glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > > By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and > the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. I'd like copies of these, if you can make them available... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcruse at acm.org Fri Jun 2 16:34:20 2000 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane References: <4.3.0.20000602151600.02636580@pc> Message-ID: <3938285C.74ED85B3@acm.org> Hi John, I'd like to get copies of any or all of those if you have them handy, Thanks, Mike John Foust wrote: > At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate > >bridge and an airplane flying over it: > >It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is > >roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. > > I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from > someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the > largest file: > > FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > > where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be > glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > > By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and > the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. > > - John From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 15:37:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >I'm looking for one of the original Cap'n Crunch cereal whistles that could > >produce the 2600Hz tone. If you know the story of John Draper (a.k.a. > >Cap'n Crunch) then you know what I'm talking about. > > >If anyone has any idea where I might find these items, please e-mail me > >directly at . > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346814958 > > Bid is $19 so far. I already looked on eBay but I have no idea if those are THE whistle I'm looking for. I've gotten a couple clues so far: 1) it was "saucer" shaped 2) it had three holes (you plugged the third to get 2600hz) The one shown in the auction above does not fit the description I'm going off of. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 17:27:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> (message from Tom Owad on Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:55:16 -0400) References: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000602222722.20820.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? >> ^^^^ >> Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? >> I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell >> under the designation of "AppleSoft". > "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. Not until *many* years later. In 1977 it was only the name of the BASIC interpreter (as distinct from "Integer BASIC"). From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 2 17:40:09 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: <20000602043954.WXCN2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: I have a schematic from one of the reference manuals... Ping me in a week if I don't get it to you by then (I have a short memory)... clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > ---------- > > From: Mike Cheponis > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Woz and his 6 chips... > > Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:14 AM > > > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there > a > > schematic somewhere? > > If you want to see a nice picture, see eBay auction 341188950 (ends June > 3). > > > From gaz_k at lineone.net Thu Jun 1 17:34:06 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Tech Rumors/Legends? References: Message-ID: <00c601bfcce6$70d95960$5c53063e@gaz> Sellam Ismail > When did Jay Miner pass away? 1994. If he had lived he would have been 68 today. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Jun 2 17:59:50 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A point to ponder: Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized documentation. How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, Chaucer, etc). The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. clint From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 18:23:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> > If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they > possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, > encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), > or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, > ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? No problem, they'll just refer to the PDF files documenting those standards. :-) More seriously, though: Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the next generation of optical drives? However, the CD-Audio format, upon which CD-ROM is based, was deliberately designed to be so simple that an audio player didn't necessarily need to contain a microprocessor (standalone or embedded). As far as I know, all commercial players have contained at least one microprocessor, because by 1983 it was actually cheaper to build players with them than without. I bring this up to address the hypothetical situation that 50 years from now there are not any commonly available CD-ROM drives. I firmly believe that a small team of graduate students, armed with the relevant technical specifications, could design and construct a working CD-ROM drive in under two years. > Will they even understand English (or a > close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English > (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, > Chaucer, etc). Longterm, this is a much more significant problem. However, it is relatively pointless to worry about whether they'll be able to read CD-ROMs if they would be unable to interpret the contents anyhow. > The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough > information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the > archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't > degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. Unfortunately, there is so little commercial value to doing this, that there is basically no chance of it being done for more than a trivial amount of information. From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 2 18:24:53 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You may wish to check out http://www.longnow.org/ -Mike On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > A point to ponder: > > Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian > hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just > undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. > > I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized > documentation. > > How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch > floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are > stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. > > In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or > paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? > > If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they > possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, > encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), > or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, > ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a > close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English > (Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, > Chaucer, etc). > > The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough > information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the > archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't > degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. > > clint > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 2 18:27:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 2 Jun 2000 23:23:40 -0000) References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > is all but impossible to read now. Of course, this view overlooks the fact that 7-track tape drives were large, expensive and typically not owned by individuals, whereas there are millions of CD-ROM drives owned by individuals now. This suggests that even if CD-ROM were to be obsoleted tomorrow, that it probably still won't be that hard to turn up a working or repairable drive 30 years from now. Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are still some around, but they aren't commonplace. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:39:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <20000602054343.19455.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 1, 0 10:43:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/e203f3b8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:28:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: <00a101bfcc34$34e74280$7764c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Jun 1, 0 09:34:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 271 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/15748fd2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:48:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 2, 0 08:14:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/5221fdc8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 13:33:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 1, 0 09:14:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000602/0fdff95d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 18:03:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 2, 0 05:52:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 12479 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/57000504/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 2 18:07:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: <000602112652.20200edb@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 2, 0 11:26:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/20d106de/attachment.ksh From stan at netcom.com Fri Jun 2 19:51:52 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for thelist! References: <200006012144.QAA07791@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <393856A8.B01F07DB@netcom.com> Thanks to Mike and all of the others who helped me out with this! It's a 24-bit accelerated video card, and now I have to see if it works in my Mac 7100/66. Regards, Stan Perkins Mike Ford wrote: > > >Hello all, > > > >I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > > >APPLE COMPUTER INC. > >820-0510-A c1993 > > Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066 > > Apple part# 820-0510-A > Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac > 61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and > video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a > camcorder or VCR for editing and playback. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 2 20:28:05 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM > drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the > next generation of optical drives? I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. These people will be the audio types that will want to be able to hear many of the pieces of music being recorded today. Remember, many of artists that will be viewed as gods in ten years are nobodies today, but recording on CDs. There will be plenty of people that will want to get early recordings, and will keep the technology alive. There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex than these, but they are well documented, and there will be spares for a very long time. And, as Eric states, it would be very possible for someone with enough resources (academic, for example) to produce a reader. I would venture to say that a well educated skilled tinker could make one. Older precision tools are getting quite easy to obtain these days, and it was those very tools that made the first players. As for 7 track tapes, well, speak up, Tim. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 2 20:33:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of > finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are > still some around, but they aren't commonplace. Look in the right place, the special interest groups dedicated to them, and you will find more than you will ever need. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 2 21:28:21 2000 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Can someome explain how arithmetic works? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:52:12 -0700 . <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: In message <13552198944.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>, "Daniel A. Seagraves" writes : >Need this for my emulator, and nobody can explain to me how it works, and >I can't find any documentation that's useful to me. Specifically, I need stuff >like "you shift left and then check the last bit" etc. etc. Basically, I have >a bunch of ones and zeroes and I have to know how to add/subtract/multiply/ >divide with them. There are several answers possible depending on what level of emulation you're looking to do. If the purpose of the emulator is for developing software on one platform before running it on another, an instruction level functional simulation is good because it's fast. For this, just turn the 1s and 0s into native integers and operate on them.[1] For a bit-level emulation, there are several good references for how this can be and sometimes is done. For example Patterson and Hennessy's books are quite good. I've taught out of their Computer Organization and Design: The Hardware/Software Interface and quite like it. If you can't find such a reference, I'll e-mail you the TeX source to a chapter I wrote years ago for my introductory courses. Finally, if you want to do a gate level emulation of a particular machine, then you'll want to get the schematics of the machine and find out exactly how its designers did it. [1] I used to work with digital signal processor (DSP) chips quite a lot. When Analog Devices entered the market with their ADSP-2100, we were interested in it. So I wrote some code to implement a standard voice compression algorithm. Now the test vectors for this represented 2 seconds of real time. The Analog Devices simulator which we ported to BSD Unix ended up taking about 1 week to run this 2 seconds on our VAX 11/750. It did the simulation at a very low level. While it was running, I started developing a new simulator using our simulator-compiler. When it was finished, it ran the 2 second simulation in about 2-3 hours. It simulated the machine at the instruction level. The amusing part of the story is that we were moving from one office to another at about that time. I was beginning to wonder as the move approached whether the first simulation was going to finish in time for us to shut the machine down and move it to the other building. It did BTW and IIRC it had about a day to spare. Brian L. Stuart From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Jun 2 21:53:58 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Zilog 8530 Serial chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "right answer" (as told to me by a genius h/w type) was to use a single PAL and a Z8030 - you actually would win by having address lines for all of the chips registers; you had to demux the AD wires, tho. -Mike On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Z8530] > > I will admit that it is not friendly to the MC68K bus. We used one or two > > dedicated PALs to handle the interfacing. Additionally, we had an 8Mhz CPU > > It's not that unfriendly. The PERQ 3a uses half a dozen TTL chips to > fiddle with the 60800 bus signals and turn them into the Z8530 read and > write signals. And one output of a PAL as the address decoder. That's > hardly 'unfriendly'... > > -tony > > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 2 22:19:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L References: Message-ID: <000901bfcd0a$83f67f40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> IF you have a cleaning tape, stick it in there! There's a flash code that it produces when it wants a cleaning tape and it won't do anything when it wants one other than spit out whatever tape you put in there other than a SONY or Exabyte cleaning tape. The drive is VERY fussy about what kind of tapes it accepts. I'd bet it won't accept any of your old handycam cartridges, and, in fact, there are some brands of "data-grade" tapes it will never accept. I don't remember which ones they are, however, since I haven't got any. If you happen to figure out how it senses what kind of tape it has, please let me know. This is still a mystery to me that I'd like to solve. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: classcomp mailing list Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 4:26 PM Subject: Exabyte 8505XL tape drive or is it a DEC RZ24L > Hello, > > Finally got a tape for this thing and it is DOA -- doesn't seem to do > anything. The lower green LED on the tape drive flashes slow then fast. > > Interesting thing though -- when I interrogated the SCSI buss, it came back > as a DEC RZ24L. thought you DEC fans might know what that is, and if it is > a proprietary model that I can't use on my Amiga. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:06:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > I bring this up to address the hypothetical situation that 50 years from > now there are not any commonly available CD-ROM drives. I firmly believe > that a small team of graduate students, armed with the relevant technical > specifications, could design and construct a working CD-ROM drive in > under two years. One can still go into thrift stores and pretty regularly find audio players from the 50s and 60s. I would imagine CD players would be just as easy if not more so to find 50 years from now. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:12:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are > keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want > to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison > cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm > film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex See: The Dead Media Project http://www.wps.com/dead-media/index.html Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 2 22:29:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: ASCII art & scanning techniques discussion on Community Memory Message-ID: One of the Community Memory archives is sprinkled with messages about ASCII art scanning techniques, among other interesting topics: http://memex.org/cm-archive4.html Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Fri Jun 2 23:46:51 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from McFadden, Mike on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:21:16AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000602214650.A4084@electron.quantum.int> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:21:16AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > color fidelity. We have discussed CD-ROM and other digital media. Our goal Doing the transfer from film to digital is no small matter either. I think what the world needs is a "universal film scanner" - a device with a linear CCD and powered rollers to feed the film through, regardless of the spacing of the frames, sprocket holes, size of the film, etc. If you digitize the entire film strip, software could be used to detect the frame boundaries later and even correct for spacing inconsistences which cause the picture to jump around when viewed on a conventional projector. I really want to find or build a scanner like that some day. So far the film scanners I have seen appear to support only the common sizes, and they don't scan arbitrary lengths of film either. > databases, to Access databases. A computer database is no help to try to Access is a kind of "evolving"? Now there's an unstable data storage system if I ever saw one. Especially if (as I suspect) MS keeps changing the file format with every new version like they do with their other Office products. Most likely you'd need the same vintage PC up and running with the same vintage software in order to read the database a few years from now. But I don't know what database system is the most change- resistant. Maybe SQL will continue to exist for a very long time yet, so you could archive the database as a sequence of SQL statements to create the tables and insert the data; that way it's independent of the on-disk format. > figure out why the sewer line was run through my yard and not on the sewer > easement in 1960. Written notes in the ledger help me to understand that the > rock was in the way and that hand digging was easier through my yard. Now > if you want to know why one house is constructed over the water and not on > shore that is another story. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Yep. The world needs a good knowledgebase system too, and more than anything that's the problem I'd like to solve. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jun 3 00:18:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. Is there any way to make it work otherwise? --Chuck From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 3 00:50:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:28:05PM -0400 References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000603015002.A26430@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:28:05PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never >go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from >now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, >there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. I'm not sure the group will be so small -- 74 minutes is already on the high side for an album, I really don't think *any* band would be happy if all their fans expected them to cough up 6 hours of new songs every couple of years! We can already get much higher data density than what's possible with CDs, but for regular pop music purposes there's no real need to improve on CDs. They're physically small enough that they're too easy to lose (I don't know what the heck the minidisk folks are thinking, those things look even more likely to roll under a car seat where you'll never find them), and they hold about as much as would reasonably fit on an LP or cassette anyway. Of course, consumers are sheep so I'm sure audio CDs will be flushed in favor of something else sooner or later, but it will probably be for no good reason. John Wilson D Bit From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jun 3 05:09:36 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> At 04:59 PM 6/2/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >A point to ponder: > >Have you ever wondered why languages 'disappear'? For example Egyptian >hieroglyphs. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, they were just >undecipherable pictures on the walls of graves. > >I fear the same problem is rapidly arriving with regards to computerized >documentation. > >How many (normal) people have access to 9-track tapes, eight inch >floppies, or even 5.25 inch floppies. All records that are >stored in these formats are effectively lost to them. > >In 100 years is anyone going to even recognize a 9-track tape? Or >paper tape? Or possibly even floppy diskettes? > >If an archeolgist digs up a CD-ROM in 500 years, how are they >possibly going to decode the information stored on it. It is scrambled, >encoded, ECCed, and stirred some more. Is it read from ID to OD (yes), >or from OD to ID. Are they going to know what Red book, Yellow book, >ISO 9660, or Joliet mean? Will they even understand English (or a >close enough descendant)? Most Americans barely understand English >(Kings English) as it was spoken 400 years ago (Shakespeare, >Chaucer, etc). > >The point is, any form of long term archival must include enough >information to allow an intelligent ignorant person to decode the >archive. This information must be recorded in a fashion that doesn't >degrade with time, and can be interpreted in the future. > >clint Last year some of our local V.I.P'S buried a "time capsule" to be dug up in a hundred years, and which included a VHS tape. While there are hundred year old Edison cylinders around and the equipment to play them on, I doubt they will have much luck with that VHS tape. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 07:14:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@uhura.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000603081457.2240025f@uhura.trailing-edge.com> Sellam wrote: >On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: >> There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are >> keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want >> to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison >> cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm >> film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex >See: > >The Dead Media Project >http://www.wps.com/dead-media/index.html I've looked at their pages, and tried to figure out what they do. They seem to just write about dead media, and they don't actually do anything with it. Is that true? To paraphrase some comedian whose name I forgot, isn't that a lot like writing about dancing but never going dancing? Tim. From CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 08:35:17 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at uhura.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@uhura.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <000603093517.2240025f@uhura.trailing-edge.com> >Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I >put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works >fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it >up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I >know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally >connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. >Is there any way to make it work otherwise? Am I correct, that you don't have a "Power Controller"? A DEC Power Controller is a metal box with one line cord in and many jacks for plugging in accessories, and a contactor (big relay) inside for switching many of the jacks on/off under remote control of the 3-pin plugs/cables. Without a Power Controller, you have no contactor, and no way of remotely switching things on and off. With such a small system, you can probably go to Radio Shack and get one of their power controllers, that works by sensing current draw to one of your boxes and turns the rest on when that one comes on. No, it's not as fancy or as configurable as a DEC power controller, and Radio Shack certainly doesn't have any versions that do 3-Phase at 60 Amps per phase, but it ought to work fine for a small system like yours. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From gaz_k at lineone.net Sat Jun 3 05:28:22 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Internet Radio References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000603015002.A26430@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000601bfcd6a$1a24a5a0$483263c3@gaz> Yesterday I found an old LW/MW radio in a second-hand shop that was labelled an 'Internet Radio' on the box. The radio itself has 'Internet 10' printed on the front and was produced by a company based in Kent, England. From the design it seems to be late 1950s/ early 1960s. Obviously it has nothing to do with the current definition of the Internet but it is still interesting to note the origins of the name and what it was associated with. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From allain at panix.com Sat Jun 3 09:49:25 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Looking for Cap'n Crunch 2600Hz whistle References: <000501bfcccc$9154c630$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <003f01bfcd6a$efb7f0a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I'm also looking > for the October 1971 issue of Esquire magazine that featured the article > with John Draper talking about the "blue box". I know it said email directly but this topic is a little too interesting to do that with. The article mentioned is in Esquire, October 1971. It can be viewed at http://www.webcrunchers.com/crunch/esq-art.html John D. was recently featured in the New York Times: 26-March-2000 which was a near full page covering none other than the Homebrew Computer Club's 25th anniversary. Immensely on-topic, I believe! The books "Digital Deli" and "Hackers" are good references also. The former features an article on John D. written by Steve Wozniak. John A. From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 10:32:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? Yep... build a power controller. :-) For info. about power controllers, look through the archives for the Vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroup from around November, 1995... not sure if they're still on deja-news or not, but I found some articles that I saved from back then containing a thread on power controllers from when the plug on my 871C melted (BTW, DEC actually sent someone to my house to check out the burnt plug... they apparently take (or took) things such as their equipment smouldering rather seriously, even if it's old and used as a hobby by someone with no service contract). A word of caution: it's a good idea to check the plugs, that is the type that are attached to the cable by screws, on power cables every so often to make sure that the screws are tight and the connection is good in order to avoid the fragrance of acrid smoke filling your house. Here's what an 871C looks like, so you have some idea of what one does; thanks to ARD for corrections and reminding me not to use tabs in ASCII drawings. * purple DPDT switch red +-----sw1a--+-sw1b-------------------------------------------------+ | | +-----------------------------------------+ | | orange| c | | | | D1a | +--------------------------------+ +--C4-+ | | | c | | | | | | | - + D2a | | 1 3 1 T1 1| a c | | | +-C2--------|----+ | R2---? ?--+ +------@!!@----D4--+ | | | | | | VR1 | | 2@!!@2| | | | green +-----------|------+ +----?----+--+ | J1-3-@!!@-+------|-----|-|---J2/3-1 | | +-----+6 | a c 2 | | 3@!!@3 a c | | | black chasis 1 +-|o |---+--D3-----+ | | J1-4-@!!@----D5--+ | | |+J2/3-2 gnd. | | | | | (unused) | | | brown +--C3---R1+--| RY1 |-------+ | +--|------------------------+ +-|-J2/3-3 | +---| |---+ | | | | | | +-----+ | +-----|----------------------------+ | J1-1 J1-2--+ | +--------------------------+-----------+ For the diodes, D1 - D5, a=anode, c=cathode MOV1 - GE V150LA10A C1 - 0.1 uF, 270VAC, 1KVDC C2 - 10 uF, 50VDC (electrolytic) C3 - .022 uF, 270VAC, 1KVDC C4 - RVX2247, 50V (.0047uF?) L1 - numbered as 1S00077, appears to be neon light, with built in resistor R1 - 1K ohms, 5 percent tol. R2 - 560 ohms, 5 percent tol. RY1 - reed relay VR1 - 8V regulator, National Semiconductor 932 736 08A (possibly 7808 type) DISCLAIMER: Use the above schematic at your own risk; it's intended as a rough guideline only, for troubleshooting purposes, for those who haven't peeked inside theirs to trace the schematic out yet; don't use this as a reliable guide for repairing or building a power controller! I can't guarantee that no mistakes were made when tracing it out, and if you rely upon it, there's no gurantee that it won't destroy you or your equipment. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 3 10:18:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? Message-ID: <001c01bfcd6f$814ffc70$7064c0d0@ajp166> >up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I >know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally >connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. >Is there any way to make it work otherwise? No, you need a 871A power distribution or similar. Lacking that a box with a small DC power, relay and outlets will do as those connectors are simply switches on the BA11 (verify with meter). That why ba-11 has a switch on the front and also on the back. Allison From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jun 3 13:09:16 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:29 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 Message-ID: I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance someplace). Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that made the thing user programmable, for example? Is anybody aware of a pre-1979 programable handheld? I suppose something like the HP-65 is a candidate, but an alpha-numeric keyboard and display would be more compelling. Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense at somebody calling it the first PDA? (No, I'm not selling one on eBay. There is one for sale there now -- it's overpriced, though. These things aren't exactly rare.) Thanks, Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 12:41:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 2, 0 08:06:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/be7e1048/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 14:14:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 3, 0 11:32:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8058 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/3cf0ee84/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 13:40:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jun 3, 0 06:09:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3822 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/2af742e2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 3 12:51:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jun 2, 0 10:18:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2195 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000603/1658ce08/attachment.ksh From mfhoneycutt at earthlink.net Sat Jun 3 16:50:27 2000 From: mfhoneycutt at earthlink.net (Mark Honeycutt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane Message-ID: <00cd01bfcda5$bbe97380$6402a8c0@laptop.home.net> John, I would really like a copy of any ASCII art files you might have, especially if they are the ones with the embedded overstrike control codes for a Dataproducts band printer. We used to have some files for our Wang system that used a DP printer.. they were really great. They went out the door when the systems were retired about 12 years ago. I now have a MicroVAX II and the DEC version of the B200 DP band printer, so I should be able to run off some good copies on greenbar paper (back side, of course) of any files I can locate. This has been an interest of mine back to the early 70's when a few punch card decks would get passed around that you could run on the IBM that would generate some pretty fair posters for dorm room walls. Thanks to you and the list, Mark Honeycutt mfhoneycutt@earthlink.net -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 3:45 PM Subject: Re: ASCII Art Golden Gate Bridge & Plane >At 09:26 AM 6/2/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>I took a photo of an ASCII art poster I have featuring the Golden Gate >>bridge and an airplane flying over it: >>It's made of up roughly 7 x 8 squares of wide carriage printer paper and is >>roughly 9 feet wide by 7 feet high. > >I think this is on an RSX ASCII collection tape I got from >someone or somewhere. In the "readme" FILENN.IDX, it's the >largest file: > >FILE14.LST 12,405 * Golden Gate Bridge > >where 12,405 records translated to 1,659,857 bytes. I'd be >glad to send a zipped version to anyone who wants it. > >By comparison, the popular Moon picture is 950,283 bytes, and >the Einstein is 348,400 bytes. > >- John > From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 3 16:10:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Doug Salot wrote: > I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held > "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also > sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance > someplace). The earliest copyright date I've found on the literature accompanying the plug-in carthridges is 1976 (or 1975...can't remember for sure). > Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that > made the thing user programmable, for example? I have the following language modules: English-Spanish English-French English-German English-Arabic English-Italian And the Calculator module. I've heard before that there was also a Computer module but this is entirely uncomfirmed. > Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense > at somebody calling it the first PDA? I've always considered it such. I'll expect a full report at VCF 4.0 :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:00:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> References: Message-ID: > Last year some of our local V.I.P'S buried a "time capsule" to be >dug up >in a hundred years, and which included a VHS tape. While there are hundred >year old Edison cylinders around and the equipment to play them on, I doubt >they will have much luck with that VHS tape. My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:11:07 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <001c01bfcd6f$814ffc70$7064c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: One of the AC power controllers I see in many small minis is the Paluzzi (sic) anyway they are not uncommon around here 10 miles from the factory in Santa Ana, anything interesting that can be done with one? I really like the idea of computer, or remote controlled AC power management. I have some Sophisticate Circuits PowerKeys, and have been thinking about some kind of serious power control for my HiFi system (lots of juice, and it must be very sweet). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Jun 3 18:16:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held >"computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also >sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance >someplace). My Lexicomm was made in Taiwan around 1995, the only older small handhelds I know of are MTS (something like that) and are actually "terminals" used for taking inventory via some small backed up memory. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 3 17:45:33 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000603224533.84840.qmail@hotmail.com> Maybe this is just a sign of how much I mess with computers/don't clean my car, but I've been known to discover 9-track tapes that slid down there in transport a long time back under my seat... Not to mention that there are assorted IBM System/36 parts under my passenger seat as we speak... The last time I cleaned my car, I found an Apollo Pascal manual I didn't even know I owned, heh.. So I dunno, for me, media would have to be around 36-48 inches across to not disappear sometimes.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 3 18:22:38 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:00:43PM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20000603060936.007b5610@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <20000603192238.A28198@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:00:43PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has >LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. I know the feeling ... in December I phoned my old grade school to find out what the plan was for digging up the time capsule we buried around 1974 or so, to be opened in the year 2000, and it was long gone. Evidently they'd expanded the school building and dug up that area at some point. They're pretty sure someone found the time capsule during the excavation and put it safely in a storage shed, but the shed later burned down (there's a housing project next door so everything gets vandalized sooner or later). Way to go! It wasn't a very well-thought-out plan to begin with, we should have specified "*summer* 2000", because on Jan. 1 the ground would have been frozen anyway. John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 19:51:35 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Woz and his 6 chips... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have dumps of the proms too... Still looking for them though. clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ladies & Gents, now I -gotta- know: What were those 6 chips, and is there a > > schematic somewhere? > > I posted the list of chips (actually, all 8 chips on the disk interface > card) yesterday. There's a schematic in the back of the Apple ][ DOS > manual. But be warned that much of the cleverness is hidden inside 2 > PROMs (one contains the disk bootstrap software, the other, together with > a latch, forms a state machine to decode the pulses off the disk). So a > schematic doesn't tell you that much. > > -tony > > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 20:09:19 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with most of what you are saying with one key point: How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their children will collect them? I believe the number of people interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! CDs are already on the way out. They have been replaced by MP3 players which store the same number of minutes of music on a much smaller flash memory chip. DataPlay.com has announced a US Quarter (.75 inch?) diameter rewritable disc player and media (hope they fail, they didn't offer me a job!). In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, but probably not in working condition. CDs have a limited lifetime, (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. The information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable format until your grad students build a reader. clint On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > Some archivists suggest that it may not be possible to read CD-ROMs > > 30 years from now, because they may have been replaced by something > > else by then, just as the 7-track tape that was common 30 years ago > > is all but impossible to read now. Right now, most or all DVD-ROM > > drives can read CD-ROMs, but will that necessarily be the case for the > > next generation of optical drives? > > I think the CD-Audio (and thus CD-ROM, pretty much) standard will never > go away completely, simply because it is so entrenched. Ten years from > now, when technology leaves the 600 some odd megabyte CD in the dust, > there will be a small, but almost religious, group keeping them alive. > These people will be the audio types that will want to be able to hear > many of the pieces of music being recorded today. Remember, many of > artists that will be viewed as gods in ten years are nobodies today, but > recording on CDs. There will be plenty of people that will want to get > early recordings, and will keep the technology alive. > > There is evidence of this already. There are lots of people today that are > keeping "record players" alive simply because many of the things they want > to hear are only available on vinyl. The same is true with Edison > cylinders, 78s, 16' transcription disks , 2 inch Quad video, slow 16 mm > film, and scores of other dead media. Yes, CD-ROMS are far more complex > than these, but they are well documented, and there will be spares for a > very long time. And, as Eric states, it would be very possible for someone > with enough resources (academic, for example) to produce a reader. I would > venture to say that a well educated skilled tinker could make one. Older > precision tools are getting quite easy to obtain these days, and it was > those very tools that made the first players. > > As for 7 track tapes, well, speak up, Tim. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 3 20:11:56 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, I have a few extra DEC power controllers, with the outlets and the 3 plug do-hickey's. Contact me OL if you want one (or two)... clint PS anybody can contact me if they want one... standard 1.2 * shipping On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? > > --Chuck > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 3 20:51:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:00:43 -0800) References: Message-ID: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> > My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has > LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they remember but the capsules are no longer present? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 3 20:57:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000604015729.31971.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > CDs have a limited lifetime, > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. I can't let that one pass! :-) I have some 17-year-old CDs, and they still play just fine. Aside from physical damage due to mishandling, the main failure mode is oxidation of the aluminum layer, which results from oxygen leaking through the lacquer on the label side of the disk, or the lacquer being defective. The *shortest* projected CD (not CD-R) lifetime which I've seen in quoted in a technical paper, assuming that the CD is manufatured properly, kept in a reasonably controlled environment, and not physically damaged, was 70 years. This was based on accelerated aging. Kodak's white paper on their CD-R media documents their accelerated aging study which leads them to project *conservatively* a 100 year lifetime. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 3 21:00:00 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their > children will collect them? Lots more than you think! Of course, many more will start collecting when they get older. > I believe the number of people > interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will > decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! No, not at all. The multi-billion dollar antiques market say "no". A certain number of people will always like the past and support it. > In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's > aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, > but probably not in working condition. A few will work, and that's what counts. > CDs have a limited lifetime, > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs that use them) with a far less stable tracking mechanism,but they track and play just fine. The bit about CDs dying prematuring is a bunch of balloon juice. While by no means a great archival solution, they are remarkably stable when treated properly. > CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. That is a fault of the users. CDs are actually very easy to keep scratch-free, but it does take some discipline (like using the jewel boxes that way they were designed). > The > information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten > years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, > group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable > format until your grad students build a reader. The 'small, religious groups' are also remarkably long-lived, and actually have professional associations and such. They know the problems with old media, and are actually doing work on it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 3 21:08:36 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jun 4, 0 01:51:16 am" Message-ID: <200006040208.TAA15032@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has ::> LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. :: ::Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they ::remember but the capsules are no longer present? Probably the former. It's all the smog in Corona and every other flippin' place in the Inland Empire that does it. (disgruntled San Bernardino resident who wants to go back home to San Diego) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 3 21:09:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000603220916.20200fd1@trailing-edge.com> >Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first >generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well >today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a >old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs >that use them) I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, but that counts, right?) For old-music-CD's, who here remembers the "Preemphasis" bit? I've got a player that indicates that status on the display, though the only CD I have that uses it is a special test disk. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:25:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > How many KIDS today are collecting LPs? And how many of their Well, most kids today appaently don't really have any idea what music is (even though they listen to what they somehow believe to be music), so that's a good question. (<- a sign that RDD's getting old?) > children will collect them? I believe the number of people > interested in old stuff (78 RPMs, LPs, CDs, etc...) will > decrease exponentially to one, and when he dies, thats IT! In all seriousness, at least some of them will, that is, those who appreciate a wide range of music. I tend to listen to anything from classical to rock (up to the 1980's, that is, before most of it turned to noise), county, celtic, etc... even some old Frank Sinatra, Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass, Doris Day, various artists on 78 RPM records, etc. After all, music that some people grew up listening to as a child, if they enjoyed it, they'll want to keep it, which probably means keeping the media it's on, particularly if there's enough of it to make converting it, or buying new copies if available, a nuisance. Besides, after listening to both the CD and LP versions of some music, there were cases where the LP. even when not in perfect condition, sounded much better - less harsh... of course, the opposite holds true as well in some cases. > CDs are already on the way out. They have been replaced by MP3 > players which store the same number of minutes of music on a > much smaller flash memory chip. DataPlay.com has announced a > US Quarter (.75 inch?) diameter rewritable disc player and media This change is idiotic; like someone else (John Wilson?) said, it's already easy enough to lose a CD compared to an LP, and a much smaller disc would be even worse. Will they eliminate the liner notes, or just supply a magnifying glass for them? When one purchases a record or CD, one expects to be able to listen to it for many decades, and to keep changing formats in a way that will make other formats obsolete isn't good. At least, for many years, turntables could play 16, 33-1/3, 45 and 78 RPM records. > In 100 years, CDs and players will be antiques, like Edison's > aluminum foil recording system. They will be on display in museums, > but probably not in working condition. CDs have a limited lifetime, Yes, Edison's recording system was at least better designed so that it would last longer. > (10 years IIRC), before they degrade to the point of being unreadable. Wow, you mean someone else besides me is saying that "CD-Rot" is a real possibility? > CDs that are being used degrade much faster due to scratches. The > information stored on the discs won't be interesting enough in ten > years to copy to alternate media except for a 'small, almost religious, > group'. When they die off, the information is trapped in a unusable > format until your grad students build a reader. One would think that society, if it was sensible, would be trying to replace them with a more durable format, but then, we live in a wasteful throw-away society. For example, look at the morons trying to convert books from paper to "e-books;" why the men with white coats and nets are chasing after the proponents of e-books, I just don't understand. The company I used to work for, that puts many well-known scientific and medical journals on the WWW, wasn't at all interested in ways of preserving the data, and ignored my ideas for ways that they could work with libraries, etc. to not only preserve, but ensure that the data wasn't changed over time after publication... one of their clients would request changes to the content of material already published, and they'd comply! So short-sighted; blasted bizdroids. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:37:30 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <000603220916.20200fd1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > but that counts, right?) Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 21:54:36 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > At one time the DEC power controllers (they're not really sequencers) > were easy enough to find at radio rallies, etc. They're pretty generic Of course, one could find inexpensive test equipment (e.g. < $15 for tektronix 'scopes and HP frequency counters), interesting and inexpensive computers, etc. at hamfests... it was so much fun before the people who just want to collect, and not play with, computers began calling themselves "computer collectors" and started snapping stuff up quickly and then only letting it go at high prices. > (there are no Unibus or Qbus versions :-)), so something like an 861 or > an 871 would work fine. Have these units now attracted E-overpay prices? Thus far, I've not seen any on E-bilk. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 3 22:19:06 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000602232733.21285.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000602232340.21251.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> At 11:27 PM 6/2/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Perhaps in 30 years the CD-ROM problem will be more akin to that of >finding working 8-track players or 78 RPM turntables today. There are >still some around, but they aren't commonplace. It would be interesting to compare the number of 78 RPM records ever made to the number of data CD made, for example. As for finding CD-ROM readers, I'm sure the surplus places will have pristine in-shrink-wrap ones on the shelf, in the same way you can still buy surplus from WW II. - John From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 3 23:34:54 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > finding CD-ROM readers, I'm sure the surplus places will have > pristine in-shrink-wrap ones on the shelf, in the same way > you can still buy surplus from WW II. That's not to say the odds are as good of them working as WWII surplus still working. A radio from that era was a far more durable piece of equipment (aside from the chance of tube (valve) breakage from improper handling and capacitors, or condensors as they called them back then, going bad) than a CD-ROM drive with all it's miniaturization and parts that probably won't handle years and years of thermal fluctuations very well and thin plastic parts that may become brittle and break, etc. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 01:55:44 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <200006040655.CAA18537@world.std.com> >Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using >a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest >you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. I'm interested... I have a couple of Casio CZ-101s that I would love to drive using the pdp-11. Allison modified a DLV11-J for me years ago so that I could control some devices... but as I am moving my entire collection to storage (my partner and I are looking into getting a house with a garage and basement so I can have a real museum), I'm not sure where it is right now. Also, years ago I built a device with several of the TI Sound Generation Controllers on it, controlled by a DL11-C. I had some software which played the music files produced by the music compliler written at Stanford. I still have the device, though I've misplaced the schematics for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Jun 4 02:44:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000604015116.31913.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:00:43 -0800) Message-ID: >> My wife's home town is Corona, California, its claim to fame is that it has >> LOST the last three time capsules it buried someplace. > >Does that mean that they don't remember where they buried, or that they >remember but the capsules are no longer present? Full story at, snip below. http://www.oglethorpe.edu/itcs/wanted.htm THE NINE MOST WANTED TIME CAPSULES 3. Corona, California, Time Capsules. The City of Corona seems to have misplaced a series of 17 time capsules dating back to the 1930s. Efforts to recover the capsules in 1986 were in vain. "We just tore up a lot of concrete around the civic center, "said the chairman of the town's centennial committee. A Los Angeles Times reporter has called Corona "the individual record holder in the fumbled time capsule category." From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Jun 4 04:51:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: AppleSoft BASIC In-Reply-To: <200006021357.GAA22548@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jun 02, 2000 09:55:16 AM Message-ID: <200006040951.CAA07002@eskimo.com> > > >Why is AppleSoft BASIC called "AppleSoft" BASIC? > > ^^^^ > >Does this have something to do with the fact that Microsoft designed it? > >I can't think offhand of any other Apple software product that fell > >under the designation of "AppleSoft". > > "AppleSoft"" was Apple's software division. As Eric said, that was a bit of revisionism (or at least sweeping history under the carpet). My cynicism makes me suspect it was doen knowingly and shamelessly, but I have no proof. And speaking of revisionism: Apple has reabsorbed Claris (the relationship between Apple and Claris is surely a fascinating story in itself) and ClarisWorks is now called Appleworks. Never mind that the original AppleWorks runs on the ][ and //gs (and AFAIK before that, the III, and bought from another company too). Even "Claris" is an in-joke. The dogcow (another in-joke) is named Clarus. I'm sure that's not a coincidence. -- Derek From flo at rdel.co.uk Sun Jun 4 07:14:15 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <393A4817.B222F43E@rdel.co.uk> Could anyone help me out by looking up some programming information for a DEC LQP02 or LQP03, please? I'm working from an LN03 manual that happens to mention that the following control sequences exist on letter-quality printers, but it doesn't give details. I'd like to know how to invoke: DECFIL (Right Justification) DECFPP (Positioning) DECPSPP (Print Specified Printwheel Position) DECPTS (Printwheel Table Select) DECSS (Set Space Size) DECUND (Programmable Underline Character) While I'm on the subject, I see that the Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84 entry for the LQP02 says that it prints "32 char/s (letter-quality, Shannon text)". Does "Shannon text" mean anything to anyone? Cheers, Paul From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 4 09:13:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <000604101346.20200efd@trailing-edge.com> >While I'm on the subject, I see that the Terminals and Printers Handbook >1983-84 entry for the LQP02 says that it prints "32 char/s >(letter-quality, Shannon text)". Does "Shannon text" mean anything to >anyone? Maybe this just shows that I'm too much of a crypto geek, but anyway: "Shannon text" means that the letters are distributed in a way typical for English-language plain text. i.e. the typical ETAOIN... distribution. Depending on the context, it may also imply a "typical" distribution of word lengths too. This actually matters for chain printers (where you can choose a subset of letters that go on the print chain and get better performance), but it's not such a big deal for dot-matrix or laser printers which tend to print at the same speed (until something overheats, at least) no matter what. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From transit at lerctr.org Sun Jun 4 09:55:49 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Computer music (was: Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > > but that counts, right?) > > Hey, that's all the more on-topic here, as (s)he performed music using > a PDP-11! Is anyone else here (John W., does this still interest > you?) interested in using PDP-11s for music/sound synthesis. > I don't know about PDP's, but when I was at UCSB, a "computer music" class was offered, using "Csound" software running on VAXen. In 84-85, they used part of one the Computer Science Department's machines (a VAX 11/780 running Unix). Csound required its own disk drive, to keep the sound from being chopped up by other processes goin on in that machine. It also had its own version of Unix commands (for example, instead of mv or rm, you'd say mvsf or rmsf, again because of the specific demands of the csound software). About a year later, the Music Department got its own VAX. They switched to individual Suun workstations a year or two after I had left in 1987. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 08:52:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <00d001bfce31$597f0840$7064c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Williams To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:21 AM Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers >Could anyone help me out by looking up some programming information for >a DEC LQP02 or LQP03, please? I'm working from an LN03 manual that >happens to mention that the following control sequences exist on >letter-quality printers, but it doesn't give details. Because the LQP 02/03 use different sequences from the later LA series dotmatrix printer that can do them. You will need manuals for LQP02 and 03 for a detailed descritption as by time the ln03 was sold those old LQPs were gone. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 10:30:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000603215823.0299def0@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 3, 0 10:19:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/776f6ae7/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 09:35:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Computer music (was: Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000001bfce3e$53a2b6d0$7864c0d0@ajp166> >I don't know about PDP's, but when I was at UCSB, a "computer Sounds like I need to drag out my Gigolo package which is a soundboard and some fo the software for Qbus. It would work for microvax but I dont have any drivers for that. The basic board is a pair of AY-mumble sounds chips from GI. What I need now (or to do) is a composition to performance compiler that would allow editing input and running it for the ear. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 4 09:47:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Programming DEC LQP02/LQP03 printers Message-ID: <000101bfce3e$547289f0$7864c0d0@ajp166> >This actually matters for chain printers (where you can choose a subset >of letters that go on the print chain and get better performance), but it's >not such a big deal for dot-matrix or laser printers which tend to print >at the same speed (until something overheats, at least) no matter what. LQP02/3 being daisy wheel and obeying the rules of inerta and acceleration are like band printers in that some sequences will print slower (less than max speed). The is especially true if the carriage positioning commands are used. So speed specs used a standard text and line width so that comparison could be made. Allison Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Jun 4 12:27:25 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Available FT: DEC PDP boards Message-ID: <20000604122725.I25040@mrbill.net> (I first posted this a while back, and was talking with someone about a trade, but I havent heard from him in almost two weeks now... Dave,if you're still interested, please get in touch with me ASAP) I've got the following assortment of PDP-11 boards and CPUs that have been sitting around for a few months; I'd like to see them go to a good home. Trades preferred; I'm looking for a small VAX to play with VMS on (MicroVAX 3100 or so), or other DEC parts (TKZ30, RRD42 cdrom drive, any VT3xx/VT4xx terminals...). Will consider any offers; I hate to have these lying around unused. Marked on handle: Other markings/desc: ----------------------------------------------- M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) I've got some other cards as well, but this is all I can find for now. If anybody's interested in these, please let me know. Bill (maintainer of www.pdp11.org / www.decvax.org) -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 4 13:25:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server Message-ID: Greetings, Would any list members happen to be familiar with a terminal server sold by BlackBox that was oroginally manufactured by Racal-Datacomm, model No. BTS-100? A while back, I obtained one of these, but I can't seem to get it to work by connecting a terminal to the console port; I've tried data rates between 300 and 19,200, and nothing; also tried a few other ports. Something tells me that the best thing to do is reset the server to the default settings, but I'm not sure how to do this; no reset switch inside, but there is is a jumper inside that I'm going to try changing next. Any ideas for sources of documentation? The manufacturer and black box consider it ancient and can't help. Also, is anyone her familiar with the apparently not-so-rare defect in Emulex Performance 4000 terminal servers that causes a short circuit? I'm told by Emulex that they have an idea what the problem is, as a certain something is known to go bad in these units, but they refuse to tell me as I'm not an authorized repair center. Short of unsoldering surface mount ICs, I've disconnected and removed everything that I can find to disconnect and remove, and the short on the circuit board remains. The PSU seems ok when I apply other loads to it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun Jun 4 14:59:29 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue and Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 References: Message-ID: <001101bfce5f$65d5f940$aac6fea9@franois> Adding to the list: > I have the following language modules: > > English-Spanish > English-French > English-German > English-Arabic > English-Italian English-Portugese (LK-3110) Electronic Notepad (LK-3500) Information Module: Winter olympics / Olympic records (LK-0280) Calculator (LK-3900) Francois From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 14:54:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 4, 0 02:25:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/3c3a833c/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 15:48:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That's not to say the odds are as good of them working as WWII surplus > still working. A radio from that era was a far more durable piece of > equipment (aside from the chance of tube (valve) breakage from > improper handling and capacitors, or condensors as they called them > back then, going bad) than a CD-ROM drive with all it's > miniaturization and parts that probably won't handle years and years > of thermal fluctuations very well and thin plastic parts that may > become brittle and break, etc. ????? While the military radios back then certainly were built tobe more durable, they do not age well at all.Simply put, materials just were not very good back then - ask any chemist or metalurgist (sp?). The plastics are horrid, the rubbers are just as bad. Paper has a huge acid content, and metals often are laced with impurities. In contrast, modern plastics and rubbers are incredibly stable, the acid content in paper has gone down, and metals are more pure. Many of these changes can be traced back to the space industry, so these meterials have quite a few years of "real world testing" under their belt, and are coming out champs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 16:05:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 04:48:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2477 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/968e7f4b/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 16:52:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yes, the plastics made 60 years ago were poor. But they weren't used for > everything from cabinets to gears to chassis to bearings to... Those > parts were made of metal back then. And yes, there have been impurity > problems with metals (the well-know 'pot metal' for example). But a brass > gear, as used in clocks for the last 400 years, and as used in the tuning > drives of WW2 radios will outlast the cheap plastic gears in a modern > unit. Period. Question mark, followed by exclamation mark. Look up "season cracking". And find me a Hallicrafters S-meter in one piece. If its brass that has any impurities in it, internal (and external) stresses will crack it. Gears are fairly immune if they have been cut from free machining brass, but stamped gears are time bombs. If the brass was cold worked, it pretty much has a death sentence, with the day of execution determined by the quality of the metal. The point is that today's brass (and other metals) is far better than yesterday's, and will outlast it greatly. Season cracking is a restoration nightmare, as there really is nothing that can stop or repair it. Anyway, comparing poor quality brass to excellent stability plastic gearing is an apples to oranges comparison. > Point is, consumer-grade equipment is not > built like that. That's not the issue. If anything, I am in 100 percent agreement. > It uses the cheapest possible materials, even when > they're not really suitable. Or perhaps you could explain why my 1972 > Philips N1500 VCR (almost entirely metal inside) is still going strong > with only 1 set of new belts and a repair to a loading pulley, whereas a 5 > year old machine has already got through 4 sets of idlers, pinch rollers, > belts and a head drum. Of course a 1972 VCR will be built well! Back then, they cost lots of money, and Philips would lose favor in the market if they did build them cheaply. > The other issue is repairability. I don't expect to be able to pick up a > WW2 unit, untouched since the day it was made, turn it on, and use it. > But I know that I could _repair_ a unit made back then. Yes, capacitors > will have broken down. Rubber-insulated wire will need replacing. But > that's not a particularly difficult problem to solve. Well, this is also not the issue, and I pretty much agree here as we... > Now try the same thing with a CD ROM drive in 50 years time. I don't > expect it to work after 50 years, sure. But just try fixing it. It's a > lot harder (some would say impossible) than a WW2 radio. The 50 year old CD-ROM will likely need far less in the repair department, because most (all?) of the parts will be just as good as the day they were born. Remember, we are talking about dealing with unused (or little used) equipment, not readers that have spent a few years in the computers of teenagers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 4 17:30:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 05:52:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5854 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000604/dd548e98/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 4 18:08:05 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000604230805.22748.qmail@hotmail.com> Don't forget the fact that LP's and 7 inches (45's) are still being pressed today... I ought to know, since I buy some of em... I have about 80 something records of all types, and about 50-60 of them were pressed in the last 5-7 years. Now if only they made blank recordable 8-tracks still, I want to record some music from CD on 8 track so I can listen to it in my car.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mark_k at iname.com Sun Jun 4 19:58:27 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs Message-ID: Hi, This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining classic stuff, so... Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into another device. I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), and heating until the solder melts? It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too long. In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I hope is high enough. Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the pads). -- Mark From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 4 19:12:39 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Racal/Blackbox BTS-100 term. server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000604201239.0144e2fc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:54 PM 6/4/00 +0100, you wrote: >If all else fails you could desolder and lift the power pin on each IC. >And then check the resistance between the lifted power pin and ground. >Hopefully you'll find the shorted IC fairly quickly. > >-tony This is the sort of situation where an HP 547A current tracer becomes very handy. No desoldering needed. It may be necessary to feed the board from an alternate, current-limited supply. carlos. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jun 4 20:19:59 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000604181812.029544e0@208.226.86.10> You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift it off. --Chuck At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ From cube1 at home.com Sun Jun 4 17:54:48 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:30 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000602221548.00b481e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000604171225.05d51600@cirithi> On my older systems you also needed "loopback" plugs at each end (at least I have that on my 11/20, where one of the two connectors on the 11/20 has a plug connecting pins 2 and 3, and at the far end is a plug connecting pins 1 and 2. I just did a little test. I checked my Microvax, a BA23. It puts 555 ohms between pins 1 and 3. Also, if I short pins 1 and 3 on the BA11K holding my 11/34, (or an H720 power supply), it turns it on. So, maybe you can try anyway -- probably would not hurt to try running the 3 wire cable between the BA23 (my MicroVAX BA23's have nothing in pin 2, by the way) and the BA11 (top connector). As an initial test, you could plug your BA11 in, and connect pin 1 to pin 3 and see if it turns it on. Of course, you would not get the "Ground for Off" automatic shutdown capability, but it looks like the BA23 wasn't set up for that anyway, at least on mine. Jay At 06:51 PM 6/3/00 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > > Ok, I'm cobbling together a PDP-11 and I ran out of slots on my BA11 so I > > put a bus extender into it and plugged that into a BA23. The system works > > fine (thank you micronotes!) but I'd like to figure out how I could set it > > up so that powering up the 11 powered up both the BA11 and the BA23. Now I > > know the little 3 plug do-hickey (I think it is a mate-n-lock) normally > > connects to a power sequencer in the rack, but I don't have one of those. > > Is there any way to make it work otherwise? > >At one time the DEC power controllers (they're not really sequencers) >were easy enough to find at radio rallies, etc. They're pretty generic >(there are no Unibus or Qbus versions :-)), so something like an 861 or >an 871 would work fine. Have these units now attracted E-overpay prices? > >The other possibility is to make your own power controller. They're not >that complex. The 3 pins on the connector are : > >Ground >Ground-for-off >Ground-for-on > >The 'truth table' is : >Ground-for-off Ground-for-on Power controller relay >Floating Floating Off >Floating Grounded On >Grounded Floating Off >Grounded Grounded Off > >Oh yes, these signals can be at up to 24V, and the supply is sourced by >the power controller. > >Conventionally, in the CPU box, a contact on the power switch, or a >transistor in the PSU, is connected between Ground and Ground-for-on. >Turning on the CPU grounds Ground-for-on and turns on the power >controller relay. This then powers up the rest of the system. >Overheat-protection switches are wired between Ground and Ground-for-off. >If any one of those trips, it turns off every power controller in the system. > >A few mounting boxes (the BA11-K is the most common one) have their own >built-in mini-power-controller for just that box. If you string the >3-wire cables between them, set the toggle switch on the back to >'remote' and plug them all into the mains then turning on the CPU will >turn on the other boxes. But most mounting boxes don't work like this :-( > >I notice Bob Davis has posted some schematics of a power controller, so I'll >comment further there. > >-tony --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 4 21:14:20 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But plastic gears, at least the plastic gears found in consumer-grade > stuff will crack as well due to said external forces. Modern plastics _do_not_ suffer from mechanical and dimensional stability. They will not just "go bad" due to age, like older plastics and brasses. > Perhaps I've been very lucky, but it all my years of repairing machinery > I have _never_ found a metal gear/pulley/etc that's suffered in this way. > Stripped teeth, sure. Wear due to lack of lubrication, sure. But not > stress-induced cracks. You've been lucky. Also, keep in mind that many of these cracks can not be seen, and do lead to teeth being easily stripped. > Yes, but the problem is that the gears in modern units are not made of > 'today's brass'. Or 'yesterday's brass'. They are made of today's > plastic, often a cheap-n-nasty plastic. A plastic that cracks if you look > at it wrongly, if it gets one drop of oil on it, or whatever. No! As stated before, modern plastics are not cheap-and-nasty. In 50 years they will be the same as they are today. If gears are used improperly, maybe beyond their capabilities (too thin, poorly formed teeth), that's a design issue, and they will wear out. So will the finest brass gears. But my last point about using a found CD-ROM 50 years from now in fairly _unused_ condition is important, as any wear inducing design flaws will not have been given to chance to work their evil. > Yes, that is the issue. We're considering what will be available in 50 > years time (or whatever). And most consumer-grade stuff simply won't be. Certainly it will, it small caches (or singles) found in warehouses, estate sales, hackers that never threw the stuff away, etc.. No, they probably won't be so common that they could be found in days in any city, but they will be far from unobtainable. > Perhaps you can name a single CD-ROM drive that's built with 'today's > brass' and 'today's stable plastics'. And which comes with as much > internal data as you find in 60-year-old Hallicrafters/RCA/etc repair > manuals. If the things work (or most of them - hell, even if the survival rate is just 10 percent in 50 years), no repair manuals will be needed. If you get a bum unit with no manual, go to the next one and see if it works. You will get a good one. > Again you're missing the point. I don't doubt that an expensive unit > today would last even longer than the 28 years that my N1500 has gone. > But there simply aren't any such units about (Every VCR I have looked in > recently has had a much poorer build quality than that N1500). There may > be a few 'professional models that will last, but from what I've seen of > other equipment, I doubt that. You have to compare the N1500 to today's high end and professional models, and not the regular stuff. Your N1500 was far from "commercial grade made for the masses". > It very much is the issue if you want a workign unit in 50 years time. > Nobody realistically expects to take a 50-year-old unit off the shelf and > turn it on. We expect to have to do minor repairs. And why will all 50 year old CD-ROMs go automatically bad? Will it be because of the materials of the chassis changing? Well, no, not really. Will it be because of the chips going bad? Well, some will, but certainly not all (no fineline geometries here). Will it be because of corrosion? Well, certainly some, but many will be found in a stable environment. Will the lubrication go bad? No, modern lubricants are very stable (easy to change, anyway). Will the motor go bad? Probably not - motor technolgy is quite mature. So exactly what do you think is the aspect that will damn all CD-ROMs to a broken state 50 years from now? > Well, while it may take a lot less time to change one ASIC than to recap > an old radio, I doubt it's going to be as easy to get the parts. If they are not bad, why replace? Why assume that every chip will have gone bad? > You seem to think that old brass gears in the tuning drive of said old > radio might well develop stress cracks. You're probably right. But > cutting gears is well within the capability of a well-equipped home > workshop. Makeing undocumented ASICs certainly isn't. There will be plenty of donors. > Seriously, what has that got to do with it? Running the unit may cause > wear on mechanical bits, but surely it shouldn't start a process that > causes the unit to die, any sooner than it would have done, when powered off > and packed away. If it does, then why doesn't the factory burn-in test > start this decay process? The decay due to time alone is getting _very_ minimal, thanks to the modern materials. Use is the thing that will kill these units, far faster than time alone. "No use" results in "very little decay". "Daily use" results in "quick fatigue". William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Jun 4 17:21:40 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006050221.e552LUc27637@admin.cgocable.net> > From: Mark > To: classiccmp > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:58:27 +0000 > Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Hi, > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? Get a old heavy alumium baking pan and start cooking on electric or gas. Heat on high starting with piece of solder wire dabbling the pan till solder melts and balls up then turn low bit towards medium. Wait for few minutes, then tap the chips you want to take till it is free and pick them up with tweezers or needle long nose pliers. I often find the melting point of solder is hot enough even on low on any stoves. Warning: It will smell if heat is too high. For those dual SOJ or gull wing (not the quad SOJ/gullwing kind), I take two 40W solder irons (grounded) and melt excessive solder acts as heat capacity to keep solder molten and keep moving both solder together. Till chip is loose then pinch the chip with the solder iron tips quickly lift up and let it drop on the metal or cardboard. Clean leads up with fresh blob of solder dragged across them by holding the chip vertical using gravity and surface torison do the work. I do that same for installing all SOJ and gull wing pitch of .025 by tacking two leads down to hold it in place and solder excessively then drag the blob, solder will want to leave the leads and try to run off at the last pin but you can prevent it when moving the solder tip carefully. > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. All cooking of any types are hot enough, over 500F on high without water load. Heated metals that are glowing red and orange ia over 1000F and bit more. Because of this glow the water has very high specific heat capacity and that takes so much heat to bring it to boil quickly and keep it there. Oh yes can melt cheap aluminum spun thin pots with a stove. I had this happen few times. Without warning too. Look at burned buses and airplaces, aluminum melted because fire is hot enough. > -- Mark Wizard From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 4 22:50:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <001801bfcea1$2d4de780$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The blowtorch has served me well in this context. When a board is not important to you and the components are, it's possible to do that with a propane torch of the inexpensive variety. It's important that they put out considerable heat, however. I've found my Weller butane torch to be not terribly useful in this regard. You can use a typical butane torch of the type you normally use to solder copper plumbing to heat the component leads, and quickly if that's possible. I often char the board but if you make the traces come off along with the IC, you're probably overdoing it. Normally, I heat the board from the component side in the case of surface mounted parts, knocking it against the table. Unless you really want to make yourself sick, this is best done outdoors. Afterward, in fact, immediately afterward, it's advisable to toss your clothing worn during this process into the laundry. A shower will relieve the pungent odor, somewhat garlic-like that you'll put out for the rest of the time before your next ablution. My luck has been remarkably good using this technique, but there have been occasions when it wasn't so good. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark To: classiccmp Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:58 PM Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs > Hi, > > This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining > classic stuff, so... > > > Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board > undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into > another device. > > I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the > board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off > when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? > > It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. > Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on > the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too > long. > > In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. > > > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. > > Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? > > > > I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount > components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the > pads). > > > -- Mark > From richard at idcomm.com Sun Jun 4 22:52:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: <4.3.1.2.20000604181812.029544e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <002601bfcea1$8683bbe0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The solder wick method can work, but one is tempted to lift up on the pins to pop the part loose, which will deform them forever. If you're better at it than I am, you might succeed with that method. The gull-wing parts I've used after using this extraction method have always been a source of trouble, needing special care to solder them into a new application. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that > is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a > very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the > pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift it > off. > --Chuck > > > At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: > >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sun Jun 4 22:11:05 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > The thing about WW2 surplus is that most of it uses standard components > that are still either easy to find today or easy to make using relatively > simple tools. For example just about the only bits in my AR88 receiver > that I couldn't go out and buy would be the transformers. And it's not > that difficult to rewind a transformer at home. The ex-military technical > manuals are very complete, and are not hard to find reprints of. This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jun 4 23:20:48 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 04, 2000 08:11:05 PM Message-ID: <200006050420.WAA28120@calico.litterbox.com> > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as > child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet receiver. *sigh* You're making me want to get my 1940 philco working again. I need to replace the filter caps, at least. It hums. Also need to clean the tuner. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 00:01:51 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Yes and no. The HF ("shortwave") radio equipment was nothing new to the amateur radio people. The tubes were all standard parts, manuals were very complete, and the stuff was cheap enough that a few experiments could go wrong. VHF radio was a bit different, but quite a few guys went on and got the stuff to mostly work. Anything with microwaves generally left the hams scratching their heads and giving up. Radar components and UHF radios used tubes seldom or never seen in the public sector (I have a magnetron actually marked "secret" - in 1943 that was _very_ secure). Waveguides and tuned stubs just "look like" they shouldn't work. The TV guided glide bomb stuff had dozens more tubes than anything seen by the hams. Most of the manuals for these systems were classified and never were released. There were, however, enough people that did play with these new technologies, and did things they only dreamed about before the war. As for standard parts, the (few) Germans had the best deal. Their surplus (after the war, although technically/politically it was Allied property) used very standardized parts, almost to the point of being wasteful. It meant, however, that a German ham could cobble up something easily, and true to the German tradition, the radios (and radars) were extremely well engineered. The American hams also had it good - quality surplus at dirt cheap prices, much of it never used. The U.S. tube system was very standardized, and most hams could get things to work quite easily with no real worries about parts. The British were next on the ladder - once again, lots of cheap surplus, but not quite as nice as the German or U.S. stuff. The government tube system certainly led to headaches (it is complex, to say the least), but British hams were no slouches adapting things to work, or finding what they needed. The Japanese...well...less said the better. Even the Japanese fighter and bomber pilots preffered _not_ to have the radios in their planes. > Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as > child's play because of the unfathomable progress of technology. I think so. Most importantly, they will have tools that are fantasy today. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 00:09:33 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006050420.WAA28120@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made > from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go > together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet > receiver. The really are no WW2 civilian radios (very few were made). People had to do with what they had before the war, until the surplus floodgate opened in 1946. Hams were shut down during the war - some even "persuaded" to sell or donate their receivers to the government (in 1941, U.S. military electronics was a crying shame). Nearly all TV development stopped and turned over to the government. In general - a bad time to be a hacker. You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 5 00:33:06 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: <002601bfcea1$8683bbe0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: The classic way of removing SOJ parts is to use two soldering irons and a big blob of solder on both rows of pins. The solder blobs heat all the pins simultaneously and the chip can be slid right off. Also, you'll be removing the chip without damage -and- you can easily clean up the PC pads to install a new chip. It's a great Silicon Valley hack I've see here performed many times. -Mike On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The solder wick method can work, but one is tempted to lift up on the pins > to pop the part loose, which will deform them forever. If you're better at > it than I am, you might succeed with that method. The gull-wing parts I've > used after using this extraction method have always been a source of > trouble, needing special care to solder them into a new application. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck McManis > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:19 PM > Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > > > > You use solder wick. You lay it over the pins, you wick up the solder that > > is holding them down. Alternatively you use a suction grabber device and a > > very small torch or hot air gun. (the latter is preferred). Attach the > > pickup to the top of the chip, then blow the hot air gun on it, and lift > it > > off. > > --Chuck > > > > > > At 12:58 AM 6/5/00 +0000, you wrote: > > >Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically > SOJ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 5 00:57:15 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 05, 2000 01:09:33 AM Message-ID: <200006050557.XAA28505@calico.litterbox.com> > > > What little I've read on the subject, ww2 vintage civilian radios were made > > from what amount to tube sets (very like chipsets) of 5 tubes designed to go > > together with a minimum of other components to make a reasonably good superhet > > receiver. > > The really are no WW2 civilian radios (very few were made). People had to > do with what they had before the war, until the surplus floodgate opened > in 1946. Hams were shut down during the war - some even "persuaded" to > sell or donate their receivers to the government (in 1941, U.S. military > electronics was a crying shame). Nearly all TV development stopped and > turned over to the government. > > In general - a bad time to be a hacker. > > You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were > made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. Yup, that's what I'm thinking of. I've dealt with two tube radios, one of which is now gone, sadly. One was a 4 tube 1945 sears radio, and one is my 1940 philco, which I *think* is a 5 tube unit that gets AM and shortwave. Last time I had it working I was getting the BBC in London with it, and a few other big powerful shortwave stations on the other side of the atlantic. I've since been given a quite powerful modern receiver and it's just not as much fun. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 5 04:10:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Nixdorf LK-3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <393B8AB0.5937.1F4678DC@localhost> > I'm trying to find some info about the LK-3000, an early hand-held > "computer". I think it was made by Nixdorf around 1979, but it was also > sold under other labels (I think I've got a "Lexicon" labeled instance > someplace). Although everybody honores Nixdorf, the LK 3000 is only an OEM Produkt, and Lexicon (whoever this is, no data) is the original designer/manufacturer. Also for the Dates, the Lexicon LK debuted in late 1978, While the Nixdorf version has first been seen (in Germany) around late 1979 (I checked some old magazines). > Can anybody tell me what modules were available? Was there a module that > made the thing user programmable, for example? Lots of language modules, mainly English<->xxx and German<->xxx (More English than German Modules have been availabel - I have to take a look at some lists back home. Also two special informational Modules for the Olympics (English), and a statistics package. I have an unfinished project floating around to document the LK 3000... > Is anybody aware of a pre-1979 programable handheld? I suppose something > like the HP-65 is a candidate, but an alpha-numeric keyboard and display > would be more compelling. AFAIR there has been something from Casio ... I'll have to check. > Assuming the LK-3000 isn't user programmable, would anybody take offense > at somebody calling it the first PDA? Jep, I would, a PDA is a bit more than a fixed (ROM) programmable device. Also there have been other 'translator' type thingies. > (No, I'm not selling one on eBay. There is one for sale there now -- it's > overpriced, though. These things aren't exactly rare.) :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wrm at ccii.co.za Mon Jun 5 10:04:46 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Woz and his (give or take) six chips Message-ID: <200006051504.NAA13312@ccii.co.za> Mike Cheponis needs to know... http://www.retro.co.za/apple/ W From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 5 07:42:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: my hack is a bit cleaner... Two weller or ungar elements with various sized screw on blocks of copper that have been shaped for the job of heating both sides at once mounted in a handle that is adjustable. Workes well for boards being repaird. for non working board and salvage parts I tourch them off directly or use some tooled copper to heat specific parts. Years of stripping salvage for choice transistors and what not gained me good practice. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 5 07:53:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006050557.XAA28505@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > > You are thinking of the "all American five" - sets of tubes that were > > made for each other. They were mostly used after 1945. Basic lineup for the common 5 tube Am reciever that was of average performance. Over the years I've delt with dozens of recivers and not a few transmitters many of which are post WWII and pre transistor and I've found them pretty standardized in and well built or very cheap depending on intended market. Common problems were failed paper caps, Electrolytics dried up and rubber insulation dead from time and heat. All of which were easy to fix. The occasional mechanical problem was often dried/dead grease or abuse to tuning mechs often easily repaired. The best tube set I'd had was a RBO-2 shipboard AM (550-1600, 3-15mhz) rack mount tube unit that weighed about 40-50 pounds and built like a tank. Gave it way working before a move as a very useable ham RX for AM. Other military stuff like the ARC series command sets and BC series were often well built though they did have problems with them in the tropics. By time I was playing with them I'd found them useful but the circuits were to say the least not state of the art for their time and reflected mass production in a hurry. They however were valuable sources of parts for tuners and the like. I'd still buy a command set now for restore or parts. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 5 08:04:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD97@TEGNTSERVER> > >Don't tell tell any of my CD's that! I have quite a few oldies - first > >generation pressings from the mid-1980s - and they work just as well > >today as they did when pressed. To add to that, my CD player is also a > >old type (remember the Index feature on CDs? I've only run across two CDs > >that use them) > > I've got several CD's that uses the Index feature, but they're all > Bach CD's. (OK, one of them is Wendy Carlos playing, > but that counts, right?) > > For old-music-CD's, who here remembers the "Preemphasis" bit? I've got > a player that indicates that status on the display, though the only CD > I have that uses it is a special test disk. Here's another one for those with long memories. Who remembers subcode graphics? I have one audio CD that contains subcode graphics that I've never been able to view (they're encoded in something like the Euro Teletext format). Anyone know how to read and display subcode graphics? -doug q From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 09:09:26 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved Message-ID: I saved a DEC rainbow from the landfill this morning. I have the system, the monitor but no keyboard. Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly some software for it? thanks! Since I don't have a keyboard, I don't konw if there is anything on the hard drive. -Bob From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 5 09:37:38 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > This makes me wonder. How standard were the "standard" components of > radios back during WWII times? Did hackers of that era also see valves > and the other components that radios were being made with as very exotic > or specialized? Maybe hackers 50 years from now will look at ASICs as looking through some hobbyist magazines of that era and earlier, as well as talking to people who were hobbyists back then, could provide the answer... this would be interesting to discuss with the older hobbyists found at hamfests. I guess at one point finding things like enameled wire and cat's whiskers (no, these didn't come from cats) was more difficult than it is now, although at one point, it was easier than it is now, I understand. Has anyone else found that from a hobbyists perepective, modern digital electronics, with all the blasted surface mount chips and ASICS, etc., is less fun than building circuits with tubes and transistors? Of course, even finding tubes and the right transistors was a pain back in the 1970's, and one couldn't get parts one needed from some electronics distributors, who were often the only one that one could get certain components from, without "creating" a company name and title to give to the sales idiots who wouldn't even talk to, or sell, a hobbyist parts. Of course, now, with the Internet, finding parts is much easier than it was back when local electonics stores (e.g., within a couple of miles, there were at least two other places besides Radio Shack to get parts: LaFayette (typically a worse selection than Radio Shack) and an independent place called Everything Electronic that had bins of surplus items in addition to a parts counter and things like car radios. Mail order through companies listed in electroncis catalogs still seemed to be the best way to find things that were difficult to find, and they were less expensive. Just my 2-cents worth. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Jun 5 09:46:12 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Internet Radio In-Reply-To: <000601bfcd6a$1a24a5a0$483263c3@gaz> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:28:22 +0100 Gareth Knight wrote: > Yesterday I found an old LW/MW radio in a second-hand shop that was labelled > an 'Internet Radio' on the box. I found one a few months ago in a car boot sale in Bristol, England. > The radio itself has 'Internet 10' printed > on the front and was produced by a company based in Kent, England. From the > design it seems to be late 1950s/ early 1960s. I have an advert for "Internet Radio (Products) Ltd." pinned to the wall here. They were at 100-102 Beckenham Road, Beckenham, Kent BR3 4RH. The Model J70 radio is shown, MW/LW, battery operated, UKP 4.72, post and packing included. The ad was in Practical Wireless in about 1973. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 10:07:35 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Other military stuff like the ARC series command sets and BC series were > often well built though they did have problems with them in the tropics. The Command Sets (RAT, RAV, ARA/ATA, SCR-274N, and AN/ARC-5 for the model number fanatics) never really had a problem in the Tropics. None of them ever needed MFP ("Moisure and Fungus Proofing - an arsenic laced varnish sprayed over the chassis much like a conformal coating). The sets that did need MFP badly because the jungle started growing in the radios in a matter of days were the Marine Corps sets - TBO, TBW, TBX, TBY, SCR-300 (BC-1000, as commonly known). Incidently, the Command Sets (named as they were designed for plane to plane short range command communications) were THE king hacker raw material for years after the war - way into the 1960s. There were thousands of ways to convert them, and no doubt all of them were tried. Many classic computer hackers learned the ropes ripping into these old radios. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From richard at idcomm.com Mon Jun 5 10:19:08 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <000901bfcf01$663c2d80$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The thing I've noticed over the past few years is that there are more and more really small parts that could be of use once you've relegated your subject board to the rubbish heap. Space is always a problem in small circuits and I've dealt with that to large extent by using the small components that are on many of today's dense boards. Keeping them from getting too hot is fairly important, though I've had pretty good yields. Once I've determined I'll sacrifice a board for its components, I put a cookie sheet with about 3.8" of water in it on the table on my patio. Then, I start by heating the back side of any through-hole components I want to salvage, often using a tool to remove them from the board. Then, I go after the front-side surface-mounted parts, not heating them directly, but heating the space between them, i.e. heating the pads where they're soldered to the board. Once those are thoroughly heated, (usually with light charring and blistering in the case of multilayered boards) I rap the board's component side against the edge of the table, causing the loose components to fall into the water in the cookie sheet. I don't know how well this works for cooling the larger parts, but I've had pretty good luck all around. I find it much more difficult to find out the values of the passives that end up in the cookie sheet, which are pretty handy for sticking a "fix" on the back of an IC, but it surely doesn't hurt them, and it keeps them from bouncing all over the place. After I'm done, there are very few bent pins and all I have to do is pour the water through a sieve to get the teensy little passives, SOT's etc. Then I can spend endless hours picking out these SO parts and trying to figure out what's what. It's not much fun, but it beats watching TV. Dick > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 5 12:41:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly >some software for it? No idea on the software, but all you need for a keyboard is a LK201, and I believe a LK401 should work. Since you've got the monitor sounds like you've already got the hard part to get. The LK201 is the keyboard that was used on VT200's, VT300's, Rainbow's, Dec Professionals, and DECmate's. As well as some VAXstations. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 5 13:19:24 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD97@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000605131819.029183c0@pc> At 09:04 AM 6/5/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >Here's another one for those with long memories. Who remembers >subcode graphics? I have one audio CD that contains subcode >graphics that I've never been able to view (they're encoded in >something like the Euro Teletext format). >Anyone know how to read and display subcode graphics? You mean CD+G? Most karaoke players handle it. I also remember that Commodore's CD-32 handled it, so I would guess there's Amiga-based CD-32 emulation software that'll handle it, too. - John From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 13:23:33 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? thanks! -Bob > >Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly > >some software for it? > >No idea on the software, but all you need for a keyboard is a LK201, and I >believe a LK401 should work. Since you've got the monitor sounds like >you've already got the hard part to get. > >The LK201 is the keyboard that was used on VT200's, VT300's, Rainbow's, Dec >Professionals, and DECmate's. As well as some VAXstations. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jun 5 13:55:36 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!) In-Reply-To: <10006020914.ZM14617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) Message-ID: <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> I've been of for the hollydays, so now some comments. I'd still favour a XML defined markup for this. Someone (John ?) said cutting edge .. why ? XML itself is nothing, it's only aset of rules to describe markup languages. In fact, XML is just a simplified (and bastardised) SGML, posibly to promote the idea. Nobody has to know anything about XML (although it helps) to use one of these Languages. Like one can do well formed HTML without knowing about XML, a Data Image Markup Language can be used without XML - But defining it in XML will give a huge advantage in tool usage. There are plenty of libraries and tool collections to handle markup languages with a XML based definition. These tools are to help development and not restrict. There is no need to build a XML parser for an Apple ][ or a TRS (Or a CoCo - Hi Bill:), unless someone likes to. The target systems don't need any knowledge about XML either - they need to dechipher the markup language. Read: they have to know that identifies the start of the description of track zero of said disk. Of course the usage of a parser framework may reduce programming, but there's no _must_ to do so. The same is true for a system writing an image file - it doesn't need to know XML - if the programm produces a well formed output (and that's a basic must for every format) all will work fine. XML changes nothing at first - like any other general standard. The benefit is in the long term when people are able to build advanced tools based on this standards without knowing about every specific single usage - My most favoured example is still the ordinary screw and bolt. Standardizeing this simple thing has allowed toolmakers to produce a wide variety of tools handeling them , from simple manual wrenches over prneumatic or electric to 100% robotic devices ... and these tools work (almost) in every situation ... we don't need a special wrench for Atari screws or Commodore ... Of course I prefer the metric screw system, but when looking closer it could be different, maybe better in some aspects for different situations ... but that's no real issue, the fact of having one system offers more benefit than anything else. BTW: Did I already mention that I _personaly_ think XML is a poor design ? And If I sound like a old XML freak, I'm not, until some 8 Month ago I did ignore XML (and I did even fight it), then I had to define some markup and tried XML ... no big deal (exept the real crapy standard document) - and an instant gain thru independant structure checking and problem reporting, without writing my own tools to check everything. Well, back to our theme: Pete, I realy agree to your idea about a sensible editor, just we are living in a real world, where real software is to be used. And since this is supposed to be an open standard, a sensible editior can't be assumed... Even if we would try, I doubt that such a thing is available on every obscure home computer system. Even chances for a simple text editor can be bad. So including binary as default is a bad idea - I would even go further and restrict all markup specific parts for only using the characters A-Z, 0-9 and some well defined (read only the absolute necersary minimum) characters. Remember, not every Computer system offers lower case or ASCII at all (This is also the reason why my definition did only include uper case tags, while XML encurages lower case). I can't stretch this fact far enough: Don't assume that binary data transfer is possible between two systems - as soon as you do, you will exclude possible usages. A format to be choosen shouls at least allow to transport the neto data in non binary form - a better way would be to allow different encodings, so _neutral_ converters may change the data representation without interpreting the content. Example: to save disk space data chunks (sektors) are stored binary - but since the encoding is just another parameter of the data tag, it may be convertetd to a base64 encoding _without_ interpreting the content other than converting the encoding. This may be done by a third party tool (remember about the advantages of standards for tool variety?) After all, we are talking about puting _yesterdays_ data on _todays_ storage (and not the other way around). Let'S just assume we would need three times - oh, well lets say four times the space to encode so an Apple Disk will need a whooping 600 kb ... Boy, we are talking about 2000s storage, thats the year then 40 gig drives droped below 250 USD including taxes. The equivalent of 10 Gig markup coded data, or about 70,000 Apple disks (143 k each). Somehow I doubt that someone will ever collect that amount. And even Windows is now able to compress data on the fly. This may reduce it close to the original size, maybe even less (in our example we store now something like a quater million of disks on one 250 Dollar IDE drive...) As far as I see this call, it's to define a format for more than just a specific system or format - so reducing it to a hard coded thing with just a few numbers would turn away most possible usage. Even further, restricting it to floppy disk like structures would render it non usable. Of course I may describe a CBM disk written on a 4040 drive - but what about the same data stored on tape drives ? Also, looking on Sallams definition even some floppy structures are excluded - where is variable speed, where are possible tracks of more than 64k, and how to encode spiral tracks (no, I'm not talking about Apple copy protection schemes, but rather flopy drives writing only one big track, like on a CD - In fact, medias like these micro drives (as used by some sharp machines) are in more danger than some Apple disk ... you still get enough drives and disks to replicate them. The same is true for other once common medias, which fall in similar categories. just remember the Sinclair micro drives. Maybe never common in the US, but for shure on the Island and within Europe. Defining only a standard for FD data means closing the eyes about all the fast fading data storage history. One may define one ore maybe two standars, but soon you'll loose - and the forgotten medias will loose. If there'S some effort to invest, it should be spend on a standard to cover as many as possible medias, and it should be extensible to add missing medias on the fly. A format to be choosen should be able of the 10 following things (with no special order): - Be able to handle all kinds of stuff from Card Storages and paper tapes, over real tapes and audio cassettes, spiral floppies and micro drives to FDs, HDs and CDs... and what ever is coming (althoug I belive that the number of new concepts is shrinking). - Define an abstract view (like tracks and sectors) - Allow the addition of physical descriptions when needed - (Possibly) Allow the definition of 'hardwaredependant' structures (ALthough this now crosses into the path of emulator definitions) - Expandable in several ways (including content encoding) - Transportable between machines, codes and OSes - Allow robust encoding - Able to be integrated into other definitions (like being integrated in a storage situation description) - simple encodable / simple decodable - Allow the encoding of multiple media within a single transfer unit (aka file). (Especialy nuber 8 and 10 is important when going to do more than just storing a disk image) I still think a XML based markup language is a good choice. I would suggest a multiple level design: - Level one is a language to describe the logical content of a media. - Level two would define 'physical' descriptions, like disk encoding etc. - Level three defines a storage landscape In the end these 3 levels should be interoperating. For example: One would encode the logical content of a disk using the Level 1 tags. A top level tag (like 'MEDIA' may include a reference to a Level 2 description telling that the disk is MFM encoded but Track 0 side 0 is FM. This will be good for 99,99% of all encoded data disks - but for special situations, like a copy protection scheme, where track 17 is also FM the reevant tags will cary override informations to tell the difference. Level 3 may be used to define a situation where a computer has 4 disk drives and tells which media (disks) are mounted in which drive. Or define a set of medias belonging to one situation (like puting all 23 OS/2 2.0 disks into one image). Anyway, I'm geting tired ... Gruss H. P.S.: still nobody to decode my disk example ? -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 5 14:15:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? > >thanks! > >-Bob Not a helpfull answer, but just about anywhere you find DEC hardware. I'm just dumbfounded the system had a monitor, but not the keyboard. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 5 14:11:43 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion Message-ID: <012d01bfcf21$e30095c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Hi Leo, bad news, I'm afraid. When I went back to my local thrift shop on the weekend, the Hyperion that had been there for a few weeks was gone. I asked the clerk if she knew whether it had sold or been dumpstered, but she had no clue. A quick check of the dumpster didn't turn up anything either : v ( Still, I'll keep my eyes open. They do seem to turn up every now and again around here. They must have been popular with the oilpatch guys, who were on the road a lot. Regards, Mark Gregory From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 5 14:31:29 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found it at the curb on garbage day....the cpu case..and the monitor was nearby...but no keyboard to be found. -Bob > >Cool...any idea where I might find an LK201? > > > >thanks! > > > >-Bob > >Not a helpfull answer, but just about anywhere you find DEC hardware. I'm >just dumbfounded the system had a monitor, but not the keyboard. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From owad at applefritter.com Mon Jun 5 14:48:40 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Fwd: HX-20 Message-ID: <200006051951.MAA03233@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Can anybody help her out? Respond to CTI@ncentral.com, not me. Tom ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 6/5/00 7:08 AM Received: 6/5/00 2:20 PM From: Kimberly Bauer, CTI@ncentral.com To: owad@applefritter.com Tom, Browsed your information and thought maybe you could direct us to a parts center for HX-20. In need of the optional mini cassette recorder. Please reply to: Kim Bauer Contact Technologies, Inc CTI@ncentral.com ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From lbutzel at home.com Mon Jun 5 13:01:30 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: <012d01bfcf21$e30095c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <003501bfcf18$13fee5a0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Mark - Thanks for tracking after the Hyperion. I will keep you posted of any progress I make. Regards Leo ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gregory To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > Hi Leo, > > bad news, I'm afraid. When I went back to my local thrift shop on the > weekend, the Hyperion that had been there for a few weeks was gone. I asked > the clerk if she knew whether it had sold or been dumpstered, but she had > no clue. A quick check of the dumpster didn't turn up anything either : v > ( > > Still, I'll keep my eyes open. They do seem to turn up every now and again > around here. They must have been popular with the oilpatch guys, who were > on the road a lot. > > Regards, > > Mark Gregory > > From emu at ecubics.com Mon Jun 5 15:44:37 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved References: Message-ID: <00b101bfcf2e$e4017810$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: Bob Brown > I saved a DEC rainbow from the landfill this morning. > > I have the system, the monitor but no keyboard. > > Any idea where I can get a keyboard and possibly > some software for it? plaese have a look at: ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/rainbow/ cheers, emanuel From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 5 17:45:19 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2, 0:48) <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> Message-ID: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> Will 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' please contact me, this is about the paid but never received ebay item. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 5 16:15:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!) In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard (ACHTUNG very long!)" (Jun 5, 20:55) References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (Jun 2 0:48) <393C13C8.6040.187D97A@localhost> Message-ID: <10006052215.ZM1486@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 5, 20:55, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, back to our theme: > Pete, I realy agree to your idea about a sensible editor, just > we are living in a real world, where real software is to be used. > And since this is supposed to be an open standard, a sensible > editior can't be assumed... Even if we would try, I doubt that > such a thing is available on every obscure home computer system. > Even chances for a simple text editor can be bad. So including > binary as default is a bad idea :-) I only included it because there appeared to some strong opposition to "wasted" bytes. What I did was bolt tags onto the binary, deliberately producing what Tony accurately described as the worst of both worlds. Actually, if you look at the examples, the ASCII form in the tags, at least, typically takes just about the same space as the binary would, so there's absolutely no reason to use anything but ASCII. > - I would even go further and > restrict all markup specific parts for only using the characters > A-Z, 0-9 and some well defined (read only the absolute necersary > minimum) characters. Thereby avoiding 99.9% of the problems raised by incompatible character set representations. Agreed. > Let'S just assume we would need three times - oh, well lets > say four times the space to encode so an Apple Disk will > need a whooping 600 kb That's only a thousand on a CD ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Jun 5 16:18:16 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: New Find! Rolm 1602... Does anyone have any info/pointers/etc...? Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E5D@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Hi! I just picked up a Rolm 1602 system at a local hamfest. It looks like an interesting toy (and a way to expand my horizons beyond the Sun/SGI/Dec arena. It even has a front panel interface :-) The unit seems to be in pretty decent shape (apparently it did not go through "Military" (i.e. sledgehammer) decommissioning, as the party I bought it from indicated that he obtained it from a NASA surplus auction). Unfortunately, there were no docs whatsoever with this critter. I seem to vaguely remember that some of the Rolm systems were just repackaged and beefed-up Data General Novas, but I could be wrong. Can anyone provide me with info/pointers/tech docs on this critter? I've done a web search and a dejanews search, but haven't had any luck. I even checked through some of the classiccmp archives, since I remembered seeing something on a Rolm system here a few months back, but I was unable to locate anything. Some of the things I'd like to know (or find pointers to): Hardware interface pinouts/docs: i.e. where do I connect an ASCII terminal... (There is no obvious serial connector, i.e. DB25, etc. All the connectors are some sort of mil-std twist-lock jobs) Does this critter have a disk interface of some sort, etc. Power requirements and pinouts: The previous owner had an AC line cord attached to a connector on the back, but I don't necessarily trust that he knew what he was doing. Is this really capable of running at 117V@60Hz, or did it need something oddball like 400Hz? Instruction set documentation: So I can play with the front panel :-) Software: i.e. Did this thing have a simple executive program of some sort? I downloaded Bob Supnik's Nova emulator in the hope that it might provide me with some hints as to Nova architecture, but there wasn't much documentation there. Will a Rolm 1602 run DG Nova code? If so, is there an archive of DG Nova software somewhere? The back of this critter uses a bunch of what looks like mil-std twist-lock connectors. Does anyone know an (affordable) source for these? I'm going to try pulling it apart tonight (It appears to be held together by about 17,000 screws :-). Any info would be greatly appreciated.... -Thanks in advance... -al- -acorda@geocities.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:04:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000604171225.05d51600@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Jun 4, 0 05:54:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/1ca15f17/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:35:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 0 01:01:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/d5ecee5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:10:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at Jun 5, 0 00:58:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/0fcff52c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:24:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 0 10:14:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/bf133d67/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 13:31:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 4, 0 08:11:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2071 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/d8298c4d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 16:28:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved In-Reply-To: from "Bob Brown" at Jun 5, 0 09:09:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000605/fefbd529/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jun 5 16:57:35 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: New Find! Rolm 1602... Does anyone have any info/pointers/etc...? References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E5D@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <393C224F.A8E20815@mainecoon.com> Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > The unit seems to be in pretty decent shape (apparently it did not > go through "Military" (i.e. sledgehammer) decommissioning, > as the party I bought it from indicated that he obtained it from a > NASA surplus auction). Unfortunately, there were no docs > whatsoever with this critter. I seem to vaguely remember that > some of the Rolm systems were just repackaged and beefed-up > Data General Novas, but I could be wrong. Yep, you're wrong :-) With the exception of one model (of which a grand total of three were built) ROLM never did "punches"; the machines were always of their design and frequently had architectural extensions. The 16XX series are post-nova 800 with stack support, but in an utterly different and incompatable fashion from that found in the Nova 3. I don't recall if it had 64K extended mode a la Keronix and DCC, but I wouldn't be surprised. A consequence of this is that not all Nova code will run on the 16XX; just as DG reclaimed some meaningless instruction codings (which could be used as NOPs) to implement the Eclipse instruction set, ROLM claimed some for their extensions. The exposure to problems, however, is probably quite small -- less for an early machine like the 1602 as opposed to the later 1666B. [snip] > Some of the things I'd like to know (or find pointers to): > > Hardware interface pinouts/docs: > i.e. where do I connect an ASCII > terminal... (There is no obvious serial connector, > i.e. DB25, etc. All the connectors are some > sort of mil-std twist-lock jobs) Yep, and not all of them are fixed-function. J1-12 on one machine might well be something utterly different on another. I'm not positive where the basic I/O stuff comes out, but I may be able to find one of my fellow ROLM alumini who does. > Does this critter have a disk interface of > some sort, etc. It might -- or might not. It depends on the application that the machine was used in; a nontrivial number of the 16XXs were employed in diskless applications running a purely memory-resident operating system. A very large number of these were used in the GLCM/SLCM erector and launch control systems. If the machine *does* have a disk interface it's likely to be a diabloesque interface to one of ROLMs semi-proprietary drives. > Power requirements and pinouts: > The previous owner had an AC line cord > attached to a connector on the back, > but I don't necessarily trust that he knew what > he was doing. Is this really capable of running > at 117V@60Hz, or did it need something oddball > like 400Hz? It depends on how it was optioned. Most will accept a fairly wide frequency range on input. Unlike some other manufacturers, ROLM built a single machine for all branches of the service. This in turn caused some other problems; hardware capable of withstanding the Navy's sledgehammer test was usually on the heavy side as far as the air force was concerned and the Navy really didn't care if the machines operated to 60,000ft... > Instruction set documentation: > So I can play with the front panel :-) I'll see what can be dredged up. It's been a *very* long time. > Software: > i.e. Did this thing have a simple executive program of some > sort? Not in the sense of something in ROM. ROLM software for the thing included ARTS ("advanced real time system") and some memory-resident thing whose name escapes me. Much of the latter stuff was written in a C-like language called MSL, which tried to dodge around the problems inherent in byte pointers on the Nova. > I downloaded Bob Supnik's Nova emulator in the hope that > it might provide me with some hints as to Nova architecture, > but there wasn't much documentation there. Will a Rolm 1602 run > DG Nova code? If so, is there an archive of DG Nova > software somewhere? It should run most Nova code; it will be things like MMAP controls that might break. As for a Nova archive -- not that I know of, although it's on my to-do list. > The back of this critter uses a bunch of what looks like mil-std > twist-lock connectors. Does anyone know an (affordable) > source for these? I'm going to try pulling it apart tonight > (It appears to be held together by about 17,000 screws :-). And you'll find about 17,000 more inside. Each board has a sealed metal cover; if you peel that off you'll find the chips mounted so they straddle metal rails. In order to meet fungus and salt-spray (and to a lesser extent, altitude) Mil Specs the cases are gasketed and some were pressurized with dry N2 -- so obviously blow through cooling won't work. The metal frames and the metal lids comprise the so-called "thermal frame" which conducts heat to the sides of the ATR chassis, where in most machines they attached blow-through heat exchangers. Boy, I haven't thought about this stuff since 1984, so I may be off on some of it... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 5 17:17:41 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006052217.PAA08145@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is > one of those gas-powered soldering irons (the ones that run on butane > lighter fuel) with a hot air blower tip. Run it round the IC, and you'll > find that the solder melts and the chip will come off easily enough. > > I have heard of the paint-stripper type of hot air gun being used for > this, with a suitable small-diameter nozzle. But I've never tried that. Hi I've used the shrink tubing guns and they work OK. These are a little more controlled than a blow torch. For a large boards of dual inline IC's, I've use peanut oil. It has a high enough temperature that it can melt solder, with a frying pan. I use some long tweezer. To keep them cool I use a fan ( Don't put them in water. A drop of water in the oil will be explosive. ). When done, I wash the parts in dish soap. Regardless of which you use, make sure to wear eye protection!!! Dwight From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 5 20:33:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark" at Jun 5, 0 00:58:27 am Message-ID: >Be aware that most manufacturers do not recomend reusing desoldered >surface-mount devices. That said, it seems to be possible to remove and Not exactly in their best interest to tell you go ahead and reuse the old parts. >The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is Doesn't anybody have a solder pot? Thats what pretty much all the scrappers I know use to remove parts. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 5 19:52:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 5, 0 05:33:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/5de530bf/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 20:32:54 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:31 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But by 1945 the cavity magnetron was documented to some extent (probably > enough to make one if you understood Maxwell's Equations ;-)) in the ARRL > handbook. FWIW, this book was published _before_ the war ended. That is because the Japanese and Germans had them - no longer a secret. The Japanese actually were quite far advanced in the art of the magnetron. For that matter, SCR-268 radars (first generation U.S. searchlight and gun control radars) were being sold as surplu before the war ended, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 20:45:32 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't dispute that there are modern plastics that are very stable and > have a long life. But I doubt that they're used in consumer-grade CD-ROM > drives or VCRs. They are, simply because the formulations have changed across the board. You can't getthe bad plastics anymore, they just are long since out of production. > Some are. Some aren't. In my experience, the ones used in consumer-grade > stuff are not the latest plastics. They are neither stable nor > long-life. Period. Well, I made my point, and am not going to continue beating a dead horse. > Well, it was a consumer-grade unit. And how much did it cost? Probably a good week's pay... > Plastic gears cracking and falling off. You think this is a non-problem, > I've seen it happen far too often to trust it won't. Other plastic parts > will fail due to stress. Adjustments (turntable height -> focus) will be > lost. No comment anymore. > Chips failing due to : > Thermal stresses cracking bondout wires (this happens in powered-down > equipment) > Contamination getting into the device/dopant migration (not common, but > certainly possible after 50 years) > Bit Rot. The microcontrollers may well use OTP EPROM or E2PROM program > memeory. We worry about bit-rot in our classic computers. It's a > problem in other devices as well Uhhh...integrated circuit technology has progressed as well, and we are not talking about cutting-edge fineline traces on the dies. > Electrolytic capacitors, particularly SMD ones failing. This is a major > problem in modern-ish camcorders, BTW. The problem is not replacing the > capacitors (which are easy to get, well-understood, and thus could be > made in 50 years time). It's that they leak a corrosive electrolyte which > will make a right mess of the multi-layer PCB. Seen it happen. Seen it > happen in modern devices. And capacitor technology... > No, not every device will fail, sure. But I think rather more will fail > than you might think. And they will not be easily repairable. I've made my point a few times over now, and this will be my last word on the matter - and I don't want this to sound like a flame, but man, you have to get a little faith in what mankind can actually accomplish. That "world of tomorrow" and "technology marches on" stuff may actually mean something... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 5 21:15:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000606021530.22259.qmail@brouhaha.com> > William Donzelli wrote: > I've made my point a few times over now, and this will be my last word on > the matter - and I don't want this to sound like a flame, but man, you > have to get a little faith in what mankind can actually accomplish. That > "world of tomorrow" and "technology marches on" stuff may actually mean > something... "Technology marches on" means new products are better than old ones. For some definition of "better". However, the appropriate definition of "better" almost *never* includes the product actually lasting longer. In high tech gear, this is because longevity is simply not an issue. The manufacturer that sold you a 4x CD-ROM drive a few years ago knew that: 1) you had no way to know how long it would last 2) 4x CD-ROM drives would be obsolete soon and noone would care about them 3) he wanted you to buy his forthcoming 12x CD-ROM drive To the manufacturer, it's a net *loss* if the drive lasts a long time. The countering factor is that the manufacture does NOT want the drive to fail while it's in the warranty period, because that will cost them money, and they don't want too many to fail within a few years, because their reputation would be damaged. So their motivation is to build the products with the least expensive parts that can be expected to last for about five years. To the extent that making a product that will be robust for five years, the manufacturer will use quality materials and parts. But if a gear that will last five years costs $0.0012, and a gear that will last twenty years costs $0.0013, guess which one will be used? You might say that the miniscule difference doesn't justify the cheaper part, even when they buy millions of them. But consider that not only are they buying millions of that part, but millions of all the other parts in the drive as well. If they save a tiny amount of money on each part in each unit, the savings add up to a non-trivial number. From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jun 5 21:37:00 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Amiga Dev. stuff avail in SoCal Message-ID: I have been contacted by a person who was an Amiga developer and who wishes a rather large stash of Amiga Stuff to disappear from his garage, thus precluding the onset of domestic disharmony. And, as conscientious collectors, it behooves us to maintain harmonious domesticity, if in our power to do so... Please contact Don Jenkins at wa6ogh@msn.com for more info. I am posting this for Don, so please contact him directly. Cheers John From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Jun 5 21:45:48 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) References: Message-ID: <393C65DC.1A4EBE58@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > I still maintain that the less than 256 byte Disk ][ boot ROM code is one > of the most amazing pieces of code ever written for a computing device. Jerome Fine replies: I am not sure if we are considering the same thing, but the single block (512 bytes) of code for the secondary MSCP boot program on a PDP-11 (the primary MSCP boot program being the code in the BOOT ROM which is much less than 256 bytes - actually one that can be entered by hand using ODT is only 110 bytes) which is on block zero on the hard disk drive of a PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would be required. I don't think it is possible to fit the rest of the code, data and buffers into just the remaining 128 words even when just one controller or host adapter is allowed and still manage to utilize many hard disk drives each with a maximum total of 8 GBytes - obviously not all physical partitions could be booted from one 64 entry mapping table since even just one 8 GByte drive has 256 physical partitions (as mentioned by Tim Shoppa - how do you even keep track of what is on all 256 partitions, let alone use them all? - envy!!!). But at least with a 64 entry mapping table in the boot block, all 64 partitions mapped for data use can also be booted from inside RT-11 using DUP if they have the necessary system files on those partitions. The problem is to squeeze an extra 56 entries into the mapping table so that DUP can boot all 64 possible partitions (D00: => D77:). >From what I can understand of what the MSCP boot requires, it is not possible to do the rest using just the other 128 words for code and data (buffers can occupy the same space as the mapping table). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Jun 5 22:38:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:07:35AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:07:35AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Incidently, the Command Sets (named as they were designed for >plane to plane short range command communications) were THE king hacker >raw material for years after the war - way into the 1960s. There were >thousands of ways to convert them, and no doubt all of them were tried. Geez, now you're making me want to shelve my existing 37 projects and go playing with radios. I was in my garage last week, sorting out boxes from old moves, and found that cute little spline-shaft knob from an ARC-5 of some sort that I used to have, I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. I have a dim recollection of building my own power supply for it out of an aluminum project box, since I didn't have the official power supply, and I had to drill out some banana jacks to fit the weird mica-insulated connector on the ARC-5 since the prongs were a bit thicker. But I don't think I ever got it actually working... John Wilson D Bit From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 5 21:55:26 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Altos 1000 (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help Yuval out? Reply-to: yuval@iapl.net.au ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:05:09 +1000 From: Yuval Avrahami - IAPL To: "'vcf@vintage.org'" Subject: Altos 1000 hello, I am desperately looking for a manual for the Altos 1000. Will you be able to refer me to a source where I can find the manual? thanks and regards, Yuval Avrahami, CCA Consultant INFOTECH Associates Pty Ltd (ANC 081 288 539) 3/7a, Gibbes Street, Chatswood NSW 2067 Sydney, Australia Phone +612 9882 1022, Facsimile +612 9882 1134 Mobile (0408) 691 566 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 5 22:02:15 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) In-Reply-To: <393C65DC.1A4EBE58@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping > table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word > table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 > available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for > boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would > be required. I don't think it is possible to fit HA! The Woz's boot code generates the requisite table on the fly! ;) (but it sounds like we're talking about a different kind of table :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 5 23:16:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Geez, now you're making me want to shelve my existing 37 projects and go > playing with radios. I was in my garage last week, sorting out boxes from > old moves, and found that cute little spline-shaft knob from an ARC-5 of some > sort that I used to have, #6743? Rare piece... > I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. If you find it, look at the snapslides. IBM made them. > I have a dim > recollection of building my own power supply for it out of an aluminum project > box, since I didn't have the official power supply, and I had to drill out some > banana jacks to fit the weird mica-insulated connector on the ARC-5 since the > prongs were a bit thicker. But I don't think I ever got it actually working... Real men use the original dynamotors. And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found with thier mouths filled with cement. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From richard at idcomm.com Mon Jun 5 23:43:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs References: Message-ID: <002101bfcf71$c30c98e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It does better for the PCB if you use hot air, but it takes longer, and that's longer for the heat to get to the inards of the IC, which, if you're not inclined to save the PCB, is a good thing to avoid. BTW, with ceramic parts, the water thing I mentioned in an earlier transimission may not be as good an idea. I've torched many a plastic part successfully, however. The hot air approach left me trying to aid the process mechanically, resulting in a hellish task getting the j-leads properly aligned for future socketing. Gull-wing parts seem to fare somewhat better, though at .025" pin pitch it gets a mite difficult finding just the right amount of deflections so they don't have to be nursed when resoldering them. The manufacturers are probably not concerned about the 100 or so parts all of us together will cost them in sales in a year as much as they're concerned about the frustrated phone calls to their rep's or FAE's wondering why the parts don't work the way they should. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Removing surface-mounted ICs > > > > >Be aware that most manufacturers do not recomend reusing desoldered > > >surface-mount devices. That said, it seems to be possible to remove and > > > > Not exactly in their best interest to tell you go ahead and reuse the old > > parts. > > True, but I've never seen a similar comment in a databook or service > manual for pin-through-hole parts. But it's in just about every > databook/service manual/etc for SMD ones. > > > > > >The best tool to use is a hot air blower. About the best sort of those is > > > > Doesn't anybody have a solder pot? Thats what pretty much all the scrappers > > I know use to remove parts. > > I must admit that I've never been in the position of caring more about > the component than the PCB. Every time I've wanted to remove an SMD part, > it's been essential to preserve the (probably irreplaceable) PCB. > > Many times I've managed to separate them without damaging either part > using the hot air tool, though. > > -tony > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 6 00:32:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:16:50AM -0400 References: <20000605233823.A210@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:16:50AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >#6743? Rare piece... Dunno the #, but I think I paid about $2-$3 to Fair Radio for the knob, in the early 80s, they had plenty of command set accessories. I wonder what they have left, they're certainly still in business, although their prices have gone up bigtime. >> I hope I find the ARC-5 itself next. > >If you find it, look at the snapslides. IBM made them. Are those the nasty latches that hold the top on? Because ... >And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found with >thier mouths filled with cement. Then I guess I'm going to hell! The top was all screwed up on mine when I got it, the slides were mangled horribly, so I drilled them all out and put in pretty (I thought) brass thumbnuts instead, and drilled some vent holes while I was at it for some reason. In my defense, this was almost 20 years ago and they were hardly rare at the time! I think I paid $10 or less for the rig, which I found in the local want ads. On the plus side, I have a BC-223-AX transmitter which my grandfather supposedly schlepped back from somewhere (I don't buy the story, for his war I'd expect spark coils and coherers!!!), which appears to be brand new (still has the packing cardboard over the row of tubes), the only things that have happened to it are a bent connector, and the tuning card(s) seem to have walked off since I got it (hmm, I think I know which ex-roommate to suspect!!!). Don't know anything about it though, BC means signal corps right? It has the same annoying latches, only bigger and a lot harder to move... John Wilson D Bit From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 02:50:18 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' In-Reply-To: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> Message-ID: <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net> Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. The last I heard from him was on May 6th. We were discussing the purchase of a Vector Graphic system he owns which he posted as available on this list on April 26th. AFAIR, I haven't seen any posts here on the list from him in quite a while. I hope he hasn't joined the list of "silent keyboards". Bill -> Will 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' please contact me, this -> is about the paid but never received ebay item. -> -> Ed -> -- From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Jun 6 09:25:49 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <20000606.092804.-268915.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:16:50 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli writes: > Real men use the original dynamotors. Here, here. Vibra-paks are for wussies :^). > And these days, those hams that modify Command Sets are often found > with thier mouths filled with cement. It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. I do recall an article from '73 magazine in the early 50's, that told you how to chop up an ARC-5 transmitter to turn it into a VFO. IIRC, you chop the chassis off at the oscillator coils. . . . :^) Jeff Kaneko KH6JJN ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 6 10:48:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Dunno the #, but I think I paid about $2-$3 to Fair Radio for the knob, in > the early 80s, they had plenty of command set accessories. I wonder what > they have left, they're certainly still in business, although their prices > have gone up bigtime. Fair still has lots of things.Basically, 99 percent of what they have is not in the catalog, simply because of the small quantities - either because they never had many of part X to begin with, or they have reduced the inventory so much that it is not worth putting in the catalog. I frequent Fair (back in a few weeks!), and I am always finding weird individual things, and boxes of stuff that were mainstays of catalogs past. They do get computer stuff from tim to time, but it gets scrapped out fast, I think. Last time I was there, they had quite a few plotters (IBM and HP) and some HP 1000 (or 2000) minicomputers with odd labels, as they were part of some sort of HP oddball gizmo tester. Fair also has quite a few boards full of old transistors, for those of us that have minis from the 1960s. Now that I have a list of part numbers needed for the RCS/RI Packard Bell, I look for spares. > Are those the nasty latches that hold the top on? Because ... Yes. Nasty they are. > Then I guess I'm going to hell! No, just a nighttime visit from Vito and Tony. > On the plus side, I have a BC-223-AX transmitter which my grandfather > supposedly schlepped back from somewhere Probably Buffalo Radio Supply... > Don't know anything about it though, BC means signal corps right? Yes ("Basic Component"). BC-223-AX was part os SCR-245. A big 10 Watts of AM. It is a ground radio set, not aircraft. If you ever want to get rid of it, contact me. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Tue Jun 6 11:35:04 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > But by 1945 the cavity magnetron was documented to some extent (probably > > enough to make one if you understood Maxwell's Equations ;-)) in the ARRL > > handbook. FWIW, this book was published _before_ the war ended. > > That is because the Japanese and Germans had them - no longer a > secret. The Japanese actually were quite far advanced in the art of the > magnetron. Hi Actually the thing that made allied radar better than German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, only that it did make a large difference in how effective the radar was. Dwight From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 12:14:35 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Although some PDP11/10s seem to use the older system I'll describe below. My PDP-11/03 systems were apparently sold as some sort of laboratory equipment package by a company called Applied Color Systems (ACS); they were full of some sort of metallic-looking dust (I think they came from a cosmetics company before being donated to the the university where I got them, which didn't want the equipment), and came with a non-DEC power controller: an Applied Color Systems C1035 power controller which is of a rather simple design, although it contains parts from well-known manufacturers: AMF/Potter & Brumfield relay, Gould circuit breaker, Tignal Transformer Co. 12VAC transformer and sockets made to federal spec. WC-596, whatever that is; heavy solid steel case as well. I wonder if they're "badge engineered." There are six switched outlets, two unswitched outlets, a 20A circuit breaker, two 120VAC plastic three-pin (two of which are used) connectors for fans and one plastic three-pin connector (two of which are used) that when shorted completes the circuit for the relay coil and switches the 6 outlets on. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jun 6 12:57:30 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' In-Reply-To: <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net>; from whdawson@mlynk.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:50:18AM -0400 References: <393C2D7F.3383@bos.nl> <000101bfcf8b$dc00b1a0$2be3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <20000606125730.W25040@mrbill.net> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:50:18AM -0400, Bill Dawson wrote: > Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and > his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. The last I heard > from him was on May 6th. We were discussing the purchase of a Vector > Graphic system he owns which he posted as available on this list on April > 26th. AFAIR, I haven't seen any posts here on the list from him in quite a > while. I hope he hasn't joined the list of "silent keyboards". > Bill Last I heard from him was May 2nd, he said that he and his wife were moving into a new home and he would contact me soon.. no replies to my mails to him since then.... I'm waiting on a PDP-11/35 from him for PDP11.ORG. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From technoid at cheta.net Tue Jun 6 12:57:16 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP Message-ID: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. Much of it was used by the Air Force for Missile testing etcetera. Here is a partial list: 1ea Harris 600 - fully outfitted mini. Model H600-2 Serial # 252 1ea Dec H7204 expansion chassis with several cards 16ea DEC Vax 4000 minis with 40mb ram, hard drives were pulled by Boeing and scrapped but CPB has lots of scsi hard disks. CPU is KA46. Model is V546K-AD Monitors for the DEC 4000 machines are VR-19HA (Sony GDM1961) 1ea DEC RL02 disk unit in rack 1ea DEC TA78-BF R-B1 Rack-mount tape unit in rack 3ea RA-81 disk units in 19" rack 3ea HP7920 hdd 1ea HP1000 mini with 7970 tape unit in rack 1ea hdd7906 (HP disk) in rack You can contact Ed Kirby of CPB at EDCPB@email.com Hope you found something you wanted! From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 6 13:22:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > Hi > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, I suspect and others may comment that like many technologies it was not a single point event like having the magnetron but also the perpiheral technologies like selsyn motors, and video(wideband) amplifier design skills to complete the package. Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge to do the needed signal processing and presentation took longer to develop. It's the subtleties of the reflected signal that has information of greater interest beyond simple range. Extracting that and presenting it in human useable form is far from trivial. Allison From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 6 12:26:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, > only that it did make a large difference in how effective > the radar was. There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is the one thing that won the war. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 13:28:28 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, that is the issue. We're considering what will be available in 50 > years time (or whatever). And most consumer-grade stuff simply won't be. > Yes, we could make stuff today that will last 50 years or more, but we > don't :-(. Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers above them who've convinced sheep-minded (no offense to sheep intended) consumers that they need a constant supply of things that are new and that the changes in products and capabilities have to be so fast-paced. Didn't cars reach optimum levels of comfort and luxury in the 1970's (ok, emissions were high, but think of all the pollution that results from manufacturing new cars); it's one thing to replace a car when it's failed structurally and repairing a badly rusted frame isn't an option... however, if heavier frames, etc. were used in the first place, that wouldn't be a problem. Now some builders are designing houses to be throw-away units, designed to last abotu 30 to 50 years... and with all that "smart-house" rubbish (who wants all that nonsense in a house?), I give some of them 10 years before people consider them obsolete or before everything stops working. Is super-high resolution for televisions that much of a necesity? I find a 20 year old Zenith System III still more than adequate... same for a 1973 color RCA, which presently needs a repair - the colors in the picture of the old RCA looked much better than those of the new TVs I see in stores! Is there any significant advantage of a new refridgerator to a 30 year old one? Etc... If the world would keep the population under control and people would stop multiplying like rabbits, and big-business would stop trying to convert so many 3rd world countries to nations which use more energy and more consumer products, if so many people didn't drive so far to work every day, and if so much energy wasn't wasted in the transportation and manufacture of new products, energy efficiency would not be of much importance, land "development" thats destroying the countryside and beautiful woodlands would stop, we wouldn't need to keep building new highways, etc. Of course, large highways also have military and police purposes as well, but that's not well publicized by our esteemed and intelligent (sarcasm intended) politicians. Is not the the cycle of constant growth, deemed necessary by greedy businesses and governments seeking more revenue, nothing more than insanity? Business expansion often requires more people who need more houses and cars, more highways, more land, who have more babies who will need more schools, then more jobs, then the cycle of lunacy continues until we're all living like cockroaches in overcrowded cities depending upon more man-made chemicals for food since there won't be enough farmland. ...and to think that many humans consider themselves intelligent than other creatures; strange. The solution seems so simple: make things that will last a long time and are repairable and teach consumers not to be influenced by marketing and that it's usually more sensible to get things repaired than to buy new things when they don't have a good reason to need something new (e.g. - they actually need something with different features (not just want to play with new featues as toys for their own entertainment) or what they have is irrepairable, etc.). Giving the above further thought, perhaps part of what's led to this problem of a "throw away" society has been the proliferation of con-artists in the repair field, from car mechanics (including the repair departments of car dealers) to TV repairmen to home repair contractors; far too many of them lie about things, overcharge consumers for unnecessary repairs, perform poor-quality work, etc... and they typically use their BBB (Better Business Bureau) memberships to lure gullible consumers into their traps. When one counters them on what they're doing wrong, they can have a tendency to turn rather nasty and damage one's property. Hence, the average consumers may prefer to just buy something new rather then be cheated multiple times by repair goons and be inconvenienced by a sometimes unreasonably long wait for the repair. Of course, if more people knew how to repair thigns themselves, or at least understood the concept of how things worked before having someone else repair them, the problem could be eliminated. Ok, simple solution, right? Not really, as most people who are intelligent don't want to get involved in politics, so we get a much higher percentage of imbecillic, and sometimes murderous, greedy bastards, higher than the level found in society as a whole, in elected offices, from local government officials to heads of state (e.g. - look at what's inhabiting the nuthouse^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HWhitehouse in Washington DC). > manuals. Because that's about the only thing that will last for 50 years. I'll bet that in 50 years, there will be significantly many more 70 to 100 year old pieces of electronic equipment in working, or repairable, condition than pieces of 50 year old equipment, and that the majority of 50 year old equipment still existing at that time will be, for the most part, useless, irrepairable, scrap. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 6 13:42:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: >I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. >Much of it was used by the Air Force for Missile testing etcetera. Here >is a partial list: > > >1ea Harris 600 - fully outfitted mini. Model H600-2 Serial # 252 Man am I glad I'm on the west coast, and a long way away from this puppy! How many Racks? Two? I'm not sure this is the same model I got my start on, but it's the first time I've seen an old Harris Mini mentioned. Anyone know what model Harris the "SNAP-2" systems were? BTW, the best version of Zork I've ever played was on a Harris. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 6 13:05:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 0 09:45:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/9983d881/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jun 6 13:50:52 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> This morning I've been somewhat lucky... Walking into a Wertstoffhof (basicly a sub of the city waste department where people deposit big stuff for recycleing - Ethan may describe it), I peeked into the computer container to have a look at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and 20 Marks later it visited my car .... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 6 14:12:28 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADA7@TEGNTSERVER> > Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers I hate to be such a bleedin' mindless dittohead, but Mr. Davis, I agree with each and every point you made in this lengthy missive. Right on! -dq From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 14:51:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > This morning I've been somewhat lucky... Indeed! :-) > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... Is this a Commodore PET? Back around 1981 when I was beginning college, the computer lab (in the same building with the card punch machines and non-full-screen terminals for an IBM 4381) was a room full of Commodore PET computers and one TRS-80. Oddly, the only thing I noticed students doing with the PETs was: playing card games. They appeared to be interesting machines. Good luck with your new find! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jun 6 15:00:57 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: References: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: <393D7499.6388.12E900E@localhost> > > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... > Is this a Commodore PET? Back around 1981 when I was beginning > college, the computer lab (in the same building with the card punch > machines and non-full-screen terminals for an IBM 4381) was a room > full of Commodore PET computers and one TRS-80. Oddly, the only thing > I noticed students doing with the PETs was: playing card games. They > appeared to be interesting machines. Over here the stuff was named CBM 4032 (it's a big screen model, so it's for shure a late one ~1984), but as I had to learn, our friends across the pond name almost any Commo PET... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 15:08:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Compu-Das (Random Factors) S-100 A/D converter board Message-ID: While checking out the contents of some 8" floppies on my PDP-11/73, I spotted a couple of circuit boards sitting on top of my LA-120 (that reminds me, I've got to get another box of greenbar... hopefully Office Depot still stocks it; can you believe that I've had quite a few co-workers who had no idea what greenbar paper is?). One of these boards is an S-100 bus board, a Compu-Das model 696-33 made by Random Factors, Inc. of Durango, Colorado. The board is partially populated by chips (it came out of a repackaged Dynabyte 5200 system made by a company Computermotor Corp.), two of which are a Burr Brown ADC76KG A/D converter, and another Burr Brown chip: an SHC80KP (not sure what this one is), in addition to various TTL logic. What's interesting about this circuit board is that the chips are all socketed in little copper sockets made into the blue circuit board, and, apparently, to add D/A functionality to this board as well, one just plugs in some (or all?) of the missing chips. Does anyone know anything about this board? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 6 15:14:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4014 HV PSU Message-ID: A while back, when I turned on the power to my Tektronix 4014 terminal, nothing appeared on the screen, but I smelled an acrid odor. Upon closer examination, the smell came from the terminal's HV PSU board around the HV transformer for the CRT circuitry. Is this a common problem with these terminals? I'm hoping that the CRT hasn't shorted out, but I haven't had a chance to check that yet. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 6 16:02:02 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 6, 2000 01:14:35 pm" Message-ID: <200006062102.RAA07722@bg-tc-ppp555.monmouth.com> > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] Although some PDP11/10s seem to use the older system I'll describe below. > > My PDP-11/03 systems were apparently sold as some sort of laboratory > equipment package by a company called Applied Color Systems (ACS); > they were full of some sort of metallic-looking dust (I think they > came from a cosmetics company before being donated to the the > university where I got them, which didn't want the equipment), and > came with a non-DEC power controller: an Applied Color Systems C1035 > power controller which is of a rather simple design, although it > contains parts from well-known manufacturers: AMF/Potter & Brumfield > relay, Gould circuit breaker, Tignal Transformer Co. 12VAC transformer > and sockets made to federal spec. WC-596, whatever that is; heavy > solid steel case as well. I wonder if they're "badge engineered." > ACS was a company that (IIRC) used to make PDP11/03 and 11/23 based systems for paint color matching (I think). They were based near Princeton, NJ and their excess stuff often made it to the Trenton computer festival. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 6 15:49:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: DEC power control? How do it know? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 6, 0 01:14:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000606/6ec1ad46/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 6 17:23:17 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New finds: Harris, DEC, HP In-Reply-To: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> (message from technoid on Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:57:16 -0400) References: <393D3B7B.93D1A3BA@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000606222317.2213.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I visited the Computer Parts Barn yesterday and found some neat stuff. Where is that? From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 18:10:56 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001bfd00c$7819b980$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> Tony said: -> For the time, I don't dispute that you can make mechanisms that -> will work correctly for many years out of modern plastics. I do doubt -> that's what happens in consumer devices. Because all the evidence I see -> (the units that pass over my workbench) says exactly the opposite. What can be done and what is being done are two different things. This is the crux of the matter. The plastics used in consumer devices are junk, and many times the implementation is done with little thought to durability, only cost. I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic manufacturing plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are excellent. However, there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic pellets and blend in additives to reduce cost. FWIW, the plastic used in automotive interior panels here in the US are almost 50% talc (ground soapstone). Why? Because talc is cheaper than plastic. Ever notice the white or lightly tinted stuff that comes off the interior plastics after a vehicle is a few years old? That is the talc. Notice how brittle the plastic becomes? Again, the talc. Bill From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Jun 6 18:12:12 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADA7@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <002101bfd00c$a57115e0$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 3:12 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history -> -> -> > Blame the marketing idiots and those Dogbert-brained money-grubbers -> -> I hate to be such a bleedin' mindless dittohead, but Mr. Davis, I -> agree with each and every point you made in this lengthy missive. -> -> Right on! Ditto ! Bill From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 6 19:16:18 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> >This is the crux of the matter. The plastics used in consumer devices are >junk, and many times the implementation is done with little thought to >durability, only cost. Sometimes plastics are used in very interesting ways. I remember one Sony Walkman-style tape transport from the 1980's, where there were *zero* metal screws in it. The entire assembly was snap-together plastic. Cheap? Absolutely! But design-wise, very interesting. Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 6 17:34:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history Message-ID: <005601bfd01d$52e9db70$7464c0d0@ajp166> From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago >about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is >the one thing that won the war. At a different time the said same history channel said it was the VT fuse... I suspect a broader view would say many things did have significance to the outcome and duration of the war. No one development was alone in winning the war. Allison From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 6 20:11:31 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history References: <000d01bfcfe6$71ea4730$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00bd01bfd01d$5140e660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ..it was not a single point event like having the magnetron > but also the perpiheral technologies like selsyn motors, > and video(wideband) amplifier design skills to complete the > package.... > > Allison BTW I have some GE SelSyn motors in the garage that a good friend gave me. A few would be FSOT or even just go for postage to interested parties on the list. eMail if interested. John A. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 6 21:13:46 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: ne Message-ID: <20000607021346.59801.qmail@hotmail.com> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 6 21:14:46 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> I have online documentation for most things DEC *software* I have now, and most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have nearly zero documentation for the hardware... So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few results. I did find a really interesting page here: http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem to help me. Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my MicroVAX is: I finally got several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually *run*! ;-) However, I've tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* (oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there any DOS/Linux utils to read/write to a MV formatted floppy?) Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer upgrade which also includes PostScript. I'll stick my 'scope on the darned thing if I have to (which I will if I can't get any info on this thing by the weekend) but just a reference page with pinouts would be great! I'll even make a deal: I'll *make* a webpage with info on this thing (including pinouts) if someone has the tech references... Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my MicroVAX programming in BASIC soon... See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 6 21:21:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000607022109.83118.qmail@hotmail.com> I am putting out a call once again to anybody who has any DOS software (and I mean anything at all: Word processors, games, scientific programs, etc.) that will work on a Sharp PC-7000 lunchbox portable. I think it has 384K, or so, of memory, but programs that run in 256K should be enough for the job. I also runs DOS Ver. 3.2 I *do not* want to have to sell or scrap this somewhat rare (well, for a PC, anyway) machine because I have no software for it aside from the boot disk. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 6 20:26:00 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Paging 'John B' alias 'danielbradatanu' References: <000701bfcfbd$0a226ca0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00cb01bfd01f$5743fbe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Has _anyone_ heard from John? He hasn't replied to my last three emails and > his eBay activity stopped around the first week of May. > > Bill I bought from (them) 13&23-March and recieved both items on 4-May. There were some problems with a core memory board that was shipped in a (padded) envelope and arrived crushed. They replaced the whole item. General positive feeling though they ahould be encouraged to wrap things better. Note that the 5 1/2 week span is a long one. Communications were from one "Heather" B. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 6 21:47:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 06, 2000 10:14:46 PM Message-ID: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> > I have online documentation for most things DEC *software* I have now, and > most of the time, I can even figure out how to install it! However, I have > nearly zero documentation for the hardware... > > So I've been hunting (fairly hard) for the last few days trying to find > documentation on the hardware on the World Wide Waste-o-time... with few > results. I did find a really interesting page here: > > http://www.digital.com/lists/QB_archive_HD.html > > but most of the MicroVAX links are dead, and the few that work don't seem > to help me. To put it mildly the Compaqazation of the DEC Websites is more than a little irritating. They went from being fairly nice and easy to use, to a nightmare. Here is a trick. Go to the OpenVMS web page and figure out how to search the site, tell it you want to search all sites. Not sure that's the exact trick I use (it seems to change every time), but I have fairly good luck along those lines. > Ontopically, the main problem I'm having with my MicroVAX is: I finally got > several pieces of software installed, not the least of which is BASIC. I Smile, and point your browser at the following: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html It has manuals for the latest version of BASIC, which will unfortunatly be newer than what you have. > even have the licenses entered, so it'll actually *run*! ;-) However, I've > tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run > the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" I just gave up in disgust and put the following in my login.com $ set term /dev=vt100/insert I'm sure someone has a better solution, but at any given time I might be accessing my cluster from a VT420, DECterm, NiftyTelnet on a Mac, or an xterm and Unix Telnet. You might want to skip the /insert, I like that behavior. > type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 > installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation > will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until > I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really > quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not sure the above trick will work for you. > (oh, and one other quick thing on the MV: Are there any DOS/Linux utils to > read/write to a MV formatted floppy?) Maybe. ISTR, something about reading ODS-2 disks on Linux. Though I've no idea what format VMS uses for floppies, I've never bothered to mess with them. > Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece Which model is it? Is it a straight Model 300, or is it a 300L, 300X, or 300LX? If it's the 300LX, I might be able to help answer quesitons *IF* I can figure out where my manual is. > of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* > about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more > than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. > Is the printer port serial or parallel, and depending upon which, what type > of cable do I need to hook it to either an: Epson Photo 700 (yes, I know > I'll be limited to text only -- that's o.k.) or an Epson EPL-7000 laser > which has both parallel and serial, and from what I was told, a 3Meg buffer > upgrade which also includes PostScript. How about a Ethernet-to-Localtalk converter with DCPSplus and Appletalk running on the OpenVMS box? That is how I print to my HP 5MP printer. In fact the OpenVMS system is acting as the print server for the OpenVMS Cluster, Unix Boxes, and Windows. The Mac's just print direct to the printer. ISTR that you've got a complete set of VAX CD's so this could be an option for you. > Anywho, thanks a lot, especially if it get's my MicroVAX programming in > BASIC soon... BTW, I've got some of the ancient DECUS BASIC programs on my FTP site that I've updated to work with OpenVMS. Right now I'm working at learning how to write DCL programs though. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 6 21:52:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:48:26AM -0400 References: <20000606013237.A407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:48:26AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: [... Fair Radio Sales ...] >They do get computer stuff from tim to time, but it gets scrapped out >fast, I think. I'm still kicking myself for not buying some 4040 (or was it 4004) CPU chips, they had them for a couple of bucks, long ago... >BC-223-AX was part os SCR-245. A big 10 Watts of AM. It is a ground radio >set, not aircraft. Any idea if there are tuning units available to bring it into a ham band? The one that's in there (TU-17 I think???) is for 2-3 MHz, so it missed both of the obvious choices. Not like we have enough trees for a decent 80 m wire antenna, but some day we'll move... Speaking of crazy surplus places, does anyone know if John J. Meshna is still in business? They were in Lynn, MA. They used to be the same kind of deal, they had a catalog full of weird stuff, but then lots of *really* random crap in ones and twos that you could find by poking around in the clutter at their shop. John Wilson D Bit From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 6 22:17:16 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: Hi David! I had offered you some software but didn't have your address and the dog ate my e-mail . . . Please send me your address. Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd send me $3.20 for postage. Most of the programs I can send you have no documentation, not even a readme, so you're going to have to poke and hope . . . Stay in touch, Glen Goodwin ACME Enterprises 5511 W. Colonial Drive Orlando, FL 32808 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 6 22:22:21 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Oops Message-ID: <60.3d1c82c.266f19ed@aol.com> Sorry, meant to send that privately. Glen 0/0 From retro at retrobits.com Tue Jun 6 22:29:52 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find References: <393D642C.11719.EE6897@localhost> Message-ID: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can bet I'll be going home with it :-) - Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" > at the usual scraped 2/386es, just to see a > 4032-32N PET laying on top .... 10 seconds and > 20 Marks later it visited my car .... > > Gruss > H. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 6 22:02:55 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? > Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can > bet I'll be going home with it :-) Schools (grade through high) had a lot of these at one point or another. Try poking around the schools in your extended area and see if any leads turn up. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Jun 7 01:17:50 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mark, I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly short time after opening (couple days IIRC). That being said, you can pick up a small propane torch at most hardware stores. Any typical propane or MAPP type torch will do. Or you can use a dremel (or equivalent) to carve enough of the board away to unsolder one pad at a time (very slow, but the only way to remove plastic shrouded connectors without destroying them). Finally, I have access to a hot air desoldering station at work, and can desolder them for you. Contact me OL for this option. clint vaxman@uswest.net On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > This isn't strictly on-topic, but I guess it could be applied to maintaining > classic stuff, so... > > > Can anyone recommend a way of removing surface-mounted ICs (specifically SOJ > package DRAM chips) from a board? It's not critical to keep the board > undamaged, but the chips must be kept intact since I want to solder them into > another device. > > I read of a technique involving turning the board upside-down and heating the > board area opposite the ICs in question with a blowtorch. The ICs drop off > when the solder melts. I don't have a blowtorch, but do have a gas stove. > > Heating the board over the stove will probably not be a good idea, since the > ICs would need to be lifted off when the solder melts. Since I want to > recover several chips, they are likely to get too hot doing it this way. > > > I do have an electric grill. The element is at the top of the oven. What about > putting the board component side down in the oven (near the heating element), > and heating until the solder melts? > > It will be important to get the temperature profile right here, I think. > Putting the board straight into a hot oven might not be a good idea, but on > the other hand having it in the oven as it warms up from cold may be too > long. > > In a way, doing this would be similar to IR reflow soldering. > > > What is a typical melting temperature for solder used on surface-mount > components? The oven control goes up to 260 Celsius (from memory), which I > hope is high enough. > > Has anyone else attempted something like this? Do you have any advice? > > > > I guess the same technique could also be used for soldering surface-mount > components (with board component side up, and solder paste applied to the > pads). > > > -- Mark > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 7 03:24:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: References: <015d01bfd030$a6c0bd00$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <393E22C6.3770.3D6F043@localhost> Date sent: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:02:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Sellam Ismail To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New find Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > > Wow! That's great, Hans. Congratulations. If I see a PET 4032 (or 2001? > > Am I dreaming?) laying around over here for that amount of money, you can > > bet I'll be going home with it :-) It's only a 12" (Big) Version (See http://www.i-m.de/home/compmuseum/commodore/4032.jpg ) > Schools (grade through high) had a lot of these at one point or another. > Try poking around the schools in your extended area and see if any leads > turn up. Gone since years over here Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Jun 7 08:36:09 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:32 2005 Subject: MSCP Boot Block Code Size for PDP-11 (Was: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard) References: Message-ID: <393E4FC9.4C09390F@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > >On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > > PDP-11 for RT-11 is also a squeeze. And while including the mapping > > table for eight RT-11 partitions made life difficult (only a 16 word > > table was used), I challenge anyone to manage to add the other 56 > > available partitions and make all 64 RT-11 partitions allowable for > > boot purposes since it would seem that a 128 word mapping table would > > be required. I don't think it is possible to fit > HA! The Woz's boot code generates the requisite table on the fly! ;) > (but it sounds like we're talking about a different kind of table :) Jerome Fine replies: In RT-11, the MSCP mapping table is used to specify which physical partition is to be used for each logical DUn: unit. The RT-11 command is: "SET DUn: PORT=p,UNIT=u,PART=m" where the PORT stands for which controller the drive is connected to, the UNIT is the physical unit number of the drive and the partition is the physical number of the 32 MByte portion of the drive. Since there is an almost infinite number of different possibilities if you consider all possible combinations for each entry (actually only 4 * 256 * 256 = 262144), it is somewhat difficult to have the mapping table be done on the fly. And even if only one controller is allowed, there are still 65536 possibilities for each entry. With an 8 entry mapping table, that is a lot of combinations. When 64 entries are used, the boot block gets sort of crowded. Whenever the SET command is used to change an entry in the primary table, the boot block entry must also be changed. Now, while a hardware boot from EPROM does not allow a non-zero partition (or at least the version DEC wrote never does), once RT-11 has been booted on any device, it becomes possible to use the RT-11 software to help the boot process along, while under a hardware boot, the allowable combinations are: "SET DUn: PORT=0,UNIT=n,PART=0" since the PDP-11 boot code does not know anything about partitions and the logical unit number must match the physical unit number for everything to work correctly. However, at present, the standard DEC distribution for MSCP software holds only an 8 entry mapping table in the boot block even though the primary mapping table can hold up to 64 entries. But, I suspect that it is entirely possible to extend the mapping table in the boot block to hold 64 entries and thereby allow RT-11 to perform a software boot of all 64 possible partitions specified in the primary mapping table. As pointed out in both of our notes, the challenge is to squeeze the needed code and data into a very limited number of bytes. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 10:54:06 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > However, I've >tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I haven't a clue how to run >the line editor, and the screen editor abends with a "terminal unknown" >type of error. Well, there's always TECO... $ teco:==$sys$system:teco32.exe teco $ make:==$sys$system:teco32.exe make $ mung:==$sys$system:teco32.exe mung Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor anymore! See ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/ for documentation. Which reminds me. Several years ago I found a slick version of TECO called "Video TECO" which I used for some time under Ultrix. I've since lost the tarball and have not been able to find it on the net (I still have a printout of the manual somewhere). Anyone else use it and know where I can snag a copy? I don't know what line editor they're shipping with VMS these days (my spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray), but the best thing to do with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. >Offtopically, the DEC 3000 model 300 has *got* to be the hardest DEC piece >of equipment to find info for... I can't seem to find anything *at all* >about the hardware other than processor speed, which the 'puter is more >than kind enough to tell me during the boot-up process. I don't know much about them beyond them being the low-end TURBOchannel Alpha box. I mainly dealt with Flaming-Os and SandWipers, and never played with the 300. IIRC, the 300 has a 12.5MHz TURBOchannel. >Is the printer port serial or parallel, It'll be serial. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 10:53:03 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home Message-ID: This person has a DEC VAXstation II GPX that needs a new home. Please contact the original sender directly. They are located in Bellingham, WA. Phone: 360 733 8111 Reply-to: mbennett@aerotechsports.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:41:04 -0700 From: Mike Bennett To: vcf@vintage.org We have a DEC Vaxstation II GPX with a 19 inch VR290 DA monitor. It have Keyboard and mouse. We have since abondoned the unit for smaller faster systems. We are looking to sell or donate the the equipment to any intersested party. We would appreciate ant assistance you might be able to provide. Best regards, Mike Bennett Preident Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Jun 7 12:06:16 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000601bfd0a2$b205ff00$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Roger said: > However, I've tried EDIT with every /SWITCH I can see, and I > haven't a clue how to run the line editor, and the screen > editor abends with a "terminal unknown" I assume you know the help set term tree of information. Also, I expect you tried vt100 first? VT100 worked with every SIO PeCee emulator I've heard of and most Unix telnets. John A. (away from Home) From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jun 7 12:32:01 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700 References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > type of error. FYI: I have the 2Meg 8-plane Graphics card, and VMS 7.1 > > installed... VMS seems not to understand what type of terminal emulation > > will work with the card, and I've monkeyed with the SET TERMINAL jazz until > > I'm blue in the face (and you thought I was ugly before! ;-). A really > > quick pointer there would be *fantastic!* > > Wait a minute.... You've got a graphics card, which indicates you're not > using a terminal, yet you're not using DECwindows? In that case I'm not > sure the above trick will work for you. It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the hobbyist setup. 1) Install a hobbyist license for DWMOTIF 2) Increase GBLPAGES and GBLSECTIONS system parameters appropriately, if needed, and do $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN GETDATR REBOOT 3) Install MOTIF from the hobbyist CD with this command: $ PRODUCT INSTALL DWMOTIF /SOURCE=DKB400:[KITS.DWMOTIF_VAX125_KIT] 4) Reboot and you'll be brought to the DECwindows login screen. You can run a DECterm and get apropriate terminal behavior. (This is all assuming that you installed DECwindows support when you installed the VMS operating system, of course :) The other good thing to do at this point is to repeat the above procedure for DEC TCP/IP. Once you've installed a UCX license and installed the TCP/IP software, you can set it all up using the command $ @TCPIP$CONFIG.COM (I think... I'm not actually near my VAX right now) and be able to telnet into your VAX from another system. There's documentation a-plenty at: http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet. -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:36:29 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! References: <200006012307.QAA26576@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000607173134.2639.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm guessing it's a video I/O board for a Quadra 630ish machine. These were squat and narrow boxes, like 2 LC's stacked on top of one and other. You could drop in a MPEG decoder card, a ethernet or modem card, a TV Tuner card, or a Video capture card. These were super propriatary and the board won't work in any other machine. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list! > > > > Hello all, > > > > I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled: > > > > APPLE COMPUTER INC. > > 820-0510-A c1993 > > Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI > board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots. > > > > > > It also has a chip on it with the label: > > > > 341S0021 > > c 1983-93 Apple > > ^ > > | > > |-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-) > > > > Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips, > > from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple > > labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba > > TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like > > the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S > > IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each. > > > > It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm > > beginning to think it's not. > > I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones on > there. > > > Any clues are greatly appreciated! > > Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other > boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a > 68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93 > http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris > or a Quadra. > > Zane > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:39:51 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home References: Message-ID: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:53 AM Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > This person has a DEC VAXstation II GPX that needs a new home. Please > contact the original sender directly. > > They are located in Bellingham, WA. Phone: 360 733 8111 > > Reply-to: mbennett@aerotechsports.com > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:41:04 -0700 > From: Mike Bennett > To: vcf@vintage.org > > We have a DEC Vaxstation II GPX with a 19 inch VR290 DA monitor. It > have Keyboard and mouse. We have since abondoned the unit for smaller > faster systems. We are looking to sell or donate the the equipment to any > intersested party. We would appreciate ant assistance you might be able to > provide. > > > Best regards, > > Mike Bennett > Preident > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 7 12:33:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <000606201618.20201169@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jun 6, 0 08:16:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/341884a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 7 12:44:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Jun 7, 0 00:17:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1198 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/a8d78f6e/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 7 12:59:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist > distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the > procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the > hobbyist setup. The hobbiest is the same save for included app on the CDrom. Your fixes work but the need to do that was likely due to wrong installation options having been selected. I did it based on the 5.4 kits I knew from DEC and the DECwindows server and all installed as expected. FYI the most common problem is not having the licenses (all) at first install and having to go back and run LMF or VMSinstal to add. Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 7 13:01:55 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) References: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <393E8E13.DCF6C966@mainecoon.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) > The coolest thing I've > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > DUMPSTER. *sighs* -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 12:22:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000607173453.10486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? Fie! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 13:59:36 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB4@TEGNTSERVER> > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? > > Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is > in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) Speaking of which, I see no one bid on this one: : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay auction site. : : The URL to the item on E-Bay is: : : http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=333251248 : : The page includes photos of the unit, and if you are an E-bay : registered user, you can contact the seller to ask questions. FWIW, it's still in E-Bay's database, and the photos still download. -doug q From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 7 14:26:09 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needsa home) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB4@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <393EA1D1.5DFDB84D@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? > > > > Huh? How come all the unused Floating Point Systems stuff is > > in the midwest and all the Sequents are in Florida? :-) > > Speaking of which, I see no one bid on this one: > > : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 > : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay auction site. Thing of beauty, isn't it? The only reason I didn't bid on it is because I have enough problems moving big stuff up and down the west coast; the thought of moving stuff east and west is just a little too much for me to cope with just now :-( -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 7 14:40:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <20000607194009.89778.qmail@hotmail.com> There's no bids on it because its not worth $300... they make no mention of having any software or docs, which would make it damn hard to use.. Not to mention that they don't say what the hell kind of computer it has an interface for on it... could be set up for a lot for a lot of different things.. and it's also a huge beast of a thing to ship. That things been on ebay like 3 or 4 times now Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 7 15:55:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: HUMOR: New Microsoft Messages Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000607155557.26b79d6a@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >New Microsoft error messages: > > In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft > error messages with their own Japanese haiku poetry, each only 17 > syllables, 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, five in > the third. > ------------------------ > Your file was so big. > It might be very useful. > But now it is gone. > ------------------------ > The Web site you seek > Can not be located but > Countless more exist. > ------------------------ > Chaos reigns within. > Reflect, repent, and reboot. > Order shall return. > ------------------------ > ABORTED effort: > Close all that you have worked on. > You ask far too much. > ------------------------ > Windows NT crashed. > I am the Blue Screen of Death. > No one hears your screams. > ------------------------ > Yesterday it worked. > Today it is not working. > Windows is like that. > ------------------------ > First snow, then silence. > This thousand dollar screen dies > So beautifully. > ------------------------ > With searching comes loss > And the presence of absence: > "My Novel" not found. > ------------------------ > The Tao that is seen > Is not the true Tao--until > You bring fresh toner. > ------------------------ > Stay the patient course. > Of little worth is your ire. > The network is down. > ------------------------ > A crash reduces > Your expensive computer > To a simple stone. > ------------------------ > Three things are certain: > Death, taxes, and lost data. > Guess which has occurred. > ------------------------ > You step in the stream, > But the water has moved on. > This page is not here. > ------------------------ > Out of memory. > We wish to hold the whole sky, > But we never will. > ------------------------ > Having been erased, > The document you're seeking > Must now be retyped. > ------------------------ > Serious error. > All shortcuts have disappeared. > Screen. Mind. Both are blank. > .... . ... .. . . > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\NewMicro.htm" > From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 7 14:14:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: VCF Link Contest Message-ID: I'm running a contest on the VCF website right now. If you add a link to your website pointing to the VCF and you garner the most referals between now and VCF 4.0, you'll win $50! Check out http://www.vintage.org/contests/link.html for complete details. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 15:21:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB8@TEGNTSERVER> > > : At any rate, the system is a Floating Point Systems model 164 > > : vector processor. It is currently for sale on the E-Bay > auction site. > > Thing of beauty, isn't it? The only reason I didn't bid on it is > because I have enough problems moving big stuff up and down the > west coast; the thought of moving stuff east and west is just > a little too much for me to cope with just now :-( It really is nice looking. And I understand; that Prime 2455 cost me a kilobuck to transport from Phoenix to the Louisville (KY) area, and that kilobuck really needed to go into fixing the Quattro. BTW, I answered my own question about the Xyplex- I kinda figured it was some kind of terminal server. How's that coming? -doug q From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Jun 7 15:44:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: ; from rivie@teraglobal.com on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600 References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: >Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor >anymore! Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs. >I don't know what line editor they're shipping with VMS these days (my >spine knows EDT, so I don't usually stray), EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type CHANGE that is. I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: 1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you this IIRC). 2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. 3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) 4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! Are there more? >but the best thing to do >with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC >line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from >the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. Boy it's been a while, I remember thinking SOS was very much like the TRS-80 Model II EDTASM. Close enough! I feel sure I've asked this before and probably been answered but, if SOS is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-) John Wilson D Bit From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 7 15:44:02 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: HUMOR: New Microsoft Messages Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADB9@TEGNTSERVER> > >New Microsoft error messages: > > In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft > > error messages with their own Japanese haiku poetry, each only 17 > > syllables, 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, five in > > the third. > > ------------------------ > > Your file was so big. > > It might be very useful. > > But now it is gone. Well, unlike the other stuff Intel and Microsoft stole from the Multics operating system, at least they got this one right. -dq From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 16:26:57 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <20000607164427.A4246@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: John Wilson wrote: >On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:54:06AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: > >Oh no! Someone's taken over www.teco.com and it's not about the editor > >anymore! > >Can't get it to come up, is it the folks that make the clips and brackets >for tying lumber together? I got a kick out of sticking TECO clips all over >the roof when I rebuilt my garage... "TE CO" also seems to be a common >failure mode for TEXACO gas station signs. No. It's TECO INTERNATIONAL, "a group of companies with over 70 years of experience serving the worldwide primary glass manufacturing industry. The TECO (TM) group provides the industry with glass-melting furnaces, batch plants, and complete plants for the production of all types of glass..." It also says "...TECO (TM) [is a] registered tradmark of Toledo Engineering Co., Inc." >EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type CHANGE that is. >I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: > >1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing > like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you > this IIRC). >2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. >3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) >4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! I've never done any real work with modes 2 and 4. I'm only in mode 2 long enough to say CHANGE. And you've completely ignored the possibility of running mode 3 on a VT52... >I feel sure I've asked this before and probably been answered but, if SOS >is Son Of Stopgap, just how bad was the original Stopgap Editor? :-) I once heard rumors, but I've completely forgotten them so that now I can just spread rumors that there once were rumors about Stopgap. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jun 7 16:34:39 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: VCF Link Contest Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802885@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> I've got some automated test tools available that could make this a shoe in. Naw... I wouldn't do that. :-) Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 3:15 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: VCF Link Contest > > > > I'm running a contest on the VCF website right now. If you > add a link to > your website pointing to the VCF and you garner the most > referals between > now and VCF 4.0, you'll win $50! > > Check out http://www.vintage.org/contests/link.html for > complete details. > > Sellam International Man of > Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000607/0d4fb1c5/attachment.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Jun 7 19:05:24 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Need DEC MMJ stuffs Message-ID: <20000607190524.H29500@mrbill.net> Anybody know where I can get a quantity (<10) of DEC MMJ-to-MMJ cables (for hooking a VT320/420 to a MicroVAX / VAXstation) and some MMJ-to-DB25F / DB25M adapters? I tried contacting Tim Shoppa, but his zShops stuff wont let me order the adapters and he hasnt responded to multiple emails.... Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Jun 7 19:39:28 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Need DEC MMJ stuffs In-Reply-To: <20000607190524.H29500@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000607173506.01cc5510@208.226.86.10> How many and how long do they need to be? As I mentioned earlier I picked up one of the Ideal Industries crimpers at Fry's (part #30-497). Since that message I've actually built two cables, one 40' to run between my noisy VAX and the quiet upstairs where the VT340 is, and one "null modem" one to connect the console of a uV3100 to a VLC. Doing the DE9 or DB9 stuff is pretty easy if you make MMJ to RJ-12 cables. --Chuck (not a shop, but willing to help out if I can.) At 07:05 PM 6/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody know where I can get a quantity (<10) of >DEC MMJ-to-MMJ cables (for hooking a VT320/420 to a MicroVAX / >VAXstation) and some MMJ-to-DB25F / DB25M adapters? > >I tried contacting Tim Shoppa, but his zShops stuff wont let >me order the adapters and he hasnt responded to multiple emails.... From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 7 22:22:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? That's what I was wondering. A car being too small is no excuse. Superglue yourself to the 370s, and demand that the refuse-truck driver pick it (and you) up and take it (and you) to your house or you won't unglue yourself! Some things just call for drastic measures. ;-) ...and don't forget to offer to pay the driver a nice tip for his time. If that fails, just tell him his truck will go {k.*.a.*.b.*.0.*.0.*.m} if he doesn't cooperate, after all, you are on a mission of computer preservation, which, as we all know, may call for drastic measures (oh, yeah... don't worry, I'm sure the members of this group might consider helping with the legal fees if the wrong people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) Seriously, did you not contact someone about allowing you to have this hauled to your house, where you could have at least kept it outdoors in shipping pallets and covered with a tarp, as well as the wrap, until someone could have rescued it? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 00:32:06 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: <20000607103200.A838@loomcom.com> References: <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:47:43PM -0700 <3.0.1.32.20000606221446.017ce420@mail.30below.com> <200006070247.TAA20805@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: If this is a dupe I appologize. My ISP's email freaked out big time just before I went into work, and it doesn't look like this made it out (if I read the bounce right). Figured I'd resend it since the list of links is useful. >It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist >distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the >procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the >hobbyist setup. Actually I suspect in his case he's installed the Commerical 7.1 kit, but the only real difference is the layout on the CD. However, you bring up an excellent point, I'd forgotten what a royal pain it is to get DECwindows running on a VAX as compared to on an Alpha. I've only installed DECwindows on one of my VAXen, and don't haven't even bothered with it on most of my Alpha's. On the Alpha you simply do the install, and then install and load the license PAKs. IIRC, I actually had to break out the manual to get it loaded on the VAX, how embarassing :^) >There's documentation a-plenty at: > > http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ > >It hasn't been badly twisted by The Q yet. > >-Seth Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much longer, as I've noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works. The frustrating thing is they've started putting up the doc's for individual software at different URL's, for example start here: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ (actually this looks like the second most useful besides the actual doc site, all kinds of good links). and find links to docs at: http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/basic/basic_index.html http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/c/c_index.html http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/ada/documentation.html http://www.digital.com/fortran/docs/ http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/pascal/documentation.html For a non-Y2k compliant web page see: :^) http://www.openvms.digital.com/commercial/cplus/cplus_index.html Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 05:29:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Where the cool stuff is (was: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home) In-Reply-To: <393E8E13.DCF6C966@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <393F91A5.4873.96FF7BB@localhost> > > The coolest thing I've > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > DUMPSTER. > *sighs* Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. That's the stuff i'm realy missing over here (BTW, I got my /390 compatible mini system two weeks ago - thanks to John Z.) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Jun 8 07:44:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADC0@TEGNTSERVER> > EDT *is* a line editor, until you (or your init file) type > CHANGE that is. I count four different editors hiding inside EDT: > > 1. Original non-keypad change mode (from EDT V1), annoying modal thing > like "vi" but of course totally different (SET CHANGE NOKEYPAD gets you > this IIRC). > 2. Line mode, when you haven't typed CHANGE yet. > 3. CHANGE mode on a VT100 etc. (what we're all used to) > 4. CHANGE mode on a hardcopy terminal. Bizarre! > > Are there more? > > >but the best thing to do > >with SOS (other than not use it) is pretend it's the old Micro$oft BASIC > >line editor. At least, that's how _I_ learned to use it, having come from > >the TRS-80 Model I and found myself dropped on a VAX. > > Boy it's been a while, I remember thinking SOS was very much > like the TRS-80 Model II EDTASM. Close enough! Other way around; SOS was first (on DEC-10). I got so accustomed to it that I copied Alan Miller's 8080 version into an extension of the old Processor Technology Software #1 (also known as SCS- Self Contained System), and later implemented it in PL/1 as part of a custom command environment for the primos operating system at revisions 17 and 18 (Prime later added its own command-line editing). I have the 8080 code for what I called 'SCSNEW' (it has a ram-based file system, cassette I/O, hooks into SOLOS for P-Tech SOL owners), code to drive an IMSAI UCRI tape board, debugger, and god-knows-what else I dumped into it and forgot about. The source was set up for Intel's Mac80 cross-assembler. You'd need to make a few changes to it for other assemblers. If anyone's interested in it, let me know... -doug q From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Jun 8 09:24:02 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Removing soldered components Message-ID: At my last job I had the luck to have access to a real/live solder sucker component remover. I found it on the top shelf of the electronics lab and fired it up. The rig was a small vacuum pump with a long hose attached to it, allowing the heated air to cool somewhat, with a glass tip. The glass tip was filled with some kind of mesh filter where the solder that was removed could cling. These little solder filters were replaceable. This glass tip was attached to a soldering iron. The vacuum pump was controlled by a foot switch. It took some trial and error to use the system. It takes some eye-hand coordination to operate this system. Don't try after 1-2 beers. I also need longer arms because my vision is extending. Works well for small number of components, not very production oriented. The whole system is probably still in the lab and hasn't been used since I left. "Solder sucker component remover" (TM) Mike "I'm waiting for all of my current memory to disappear and them I can live in the past." From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 09:40:24 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea Message-ID: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> This is what happens to you when you study biochemistry all week. I had a perverted idea of building a DOS emulator on a C64 -- i.e., have the C64 emulate the 8086 in software, either in real time or some sort of JIT compilation method. How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? Just a perverted idea, like I said. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "Garbage in -- gospel out" ------------------------------------------------- From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 09:35:51 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: [seth wrote:] > >It sounds like he's just installed the standard OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist > >distribution. I've never installed "Real" VMS, so I'm not sure what the > >procedure to get DECwindows running on it is, but this works for the > >hobbyist setup. Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has been castrated by the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or TK70s? I don't need DECwindows, BTW. ...that is, if I can get my TK70 working. One of the TK70's lights blinks briefly when the system is powered on, then nothing, and I can't insert a tape into the drive. > Actually I suspect that URL might not be around much longer, as I've > noticed that http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ now works. How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have by buying DEC when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC. It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 10:15:30 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I >would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, >maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? You could execute from disk, requiring just enough memory to hold a disk sector. I.e., instead of reading memory by indexing into an array like: Instruction = Memory[ IP ]; do something like: Block = IP >> 7; /* 128-byte sector, anyone? */ Offset = IP & 0x7f; read( File, Block ); Instruction = Memory[ Offset ]; -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 10:20:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k or 33k alone. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 10:25:00 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> > I had a perverted idea of building a DOS emulator on a C64 -- i.e., have > the C64 emulate the 8086 in software, either in real time or some sort of > JIT compilation method. :)) > How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? If you'd like to boot DOS 2.11 (my recomendation) 128 K is sufficient for DOS and most tools. It should be possible to strip it down to run in as little as ~96 k, but below 64 K not even a complete boot is possible. DOS 1.X is able to run in 64 K, although it will be hard to find programs still able to run - after the introduction of DOS 2.0 everybody switched for the new file I/O (Unix style, without FCBs). CP/M 86 may be an alternativ way to go - way faster boot :) Also, based on my experiance of a 8080 emulator I did on the KIM in 1979, it will be hard to get a decent performance... I think the effective speed on a C64 will be something like or below a 0.1 MHz 8086 (my 8080 emulation archived an equivalent of a 0.10-0.25 MHz 8080), depending on the instruction mix of course Say, wouldn't a Software CP/M system more aprobiate for a first step ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 11:17:20 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Jun 8, 0 11:20:32 am" Message-ID: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? :: ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k ::or 33k alone. That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively instead. Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Jun 8 11:54:03 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91AC@MAIL10> Cameron: There are several sources for this info. Look for Ralf Brown. He made an "interrupt list" which is just a list of *all* interrupts. Mike Podanofsky wrote RxDOS, a DOS clone for the book "Dissecting DOS" from Addison-Wellsley. His company is API Software in New Hampshire. Try http://www.freedos.org/files/distributions/rxdos/ for a code distribution. The documentation and comments are excellent. -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:17 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Perverted DOS idea ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? :: ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k ::or 33k alone. That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively instead. Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 11:56:26 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <002001bfd00c$7819b980$3ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic manufacturing > plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are excellent. > However, > there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic pellets and blend > in > additives to reduce cost. This is a trick as old as the hills (and one of the reasons the old plastics fell apart quickly). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 11:58:34 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606.092804.-268915.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 > transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. > > TORCH! Unbeliever! Tune into the vintage military radio nets on 80m. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 12:14:00 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000608170903.59641.qmail@hotmail.com> Check out the freedos project, they've got src for their open source, GPL'd command.com available. http://www.freedos.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Perverted DOS idea > ::> How little memory could you run something like, say, DOS 3.3 in? All I > ::> would be supporting is a basic command set like COMMAND.COM, EDLIN, DEBUG, > ::> maybe XCOPY, etc. And are the INTs documented anywhere? > :: > ::I'd guess 128k and certainly in 256k. the Command.com itself is some 27k > ::or 33k alone. > > That was the thing I was worried about. Maybe I'll write Command.com natively > instead. > > Someone suggested emulation from disk, and that's exactly how I was thinking > of doing it. > > Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores > but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:11:09 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > Actually the thing that made allied radar better than > German during the war wasn't so much the magnetron, > that as mentioned had been copied. It was the rotating > beam on the screen. I don't know why they didn't have this, > only that it did make a large difference in how effective > the radar was. Welll...I don't know about that. In the old days, most radarmen looked atthe old-fashioned A-scope just as much as the PPI-scope. Because the radar receivers were in general bad, noisy things, the gain tended to be set at a sweet spot, so there was a lot, but not too much, noise (false echos, sea return, general junk) on the PPI-scope. It really was just a broad overview, so the radarman could make fast choices as to what to examine out of the mess. The A-scope (or R-scope, if fancy) was then used to verify the echo, get the range, and interrogate with IFF. Azimuth was read from a compass repeater, generally built into the console. The Germans lost the radar war because they grew cocky. In 1940 they had the best, and thought that best would be good for many years. By 1942, they were proven wrong, and had to make up for a couple of years of stalled developement. They never had a prayer of catching up. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 12:12:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: The more I like my VAX, the more I hate Compaq... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R. D. Davis wrote: >Alas, real VAX/VMS no longer exists, it's name has been castrated by >the marketing goons to sound like yet another bizdroidish name... the >thought of seeing the string "OpenVMS" on my VT240 is nowhere near as >much fun as seeing "VAX/VMS." Does anyone know where I can get a VAX/VMS was a name that *had* to go in the early 90's. Think about it, if you had your way we'd have VAX/VMS and AXP/VMS, which would create confusion, where there doesn't need to be any. Besides OpenVMS is as Open as just about any other OS out there. >complete V5.4 or so VAX/VMS distribution on TK50s or TK70s? I don't >need DECwindows, BTW. Best answer, get lucky and find a set. I wish the Hobbyist VAX V1 CD was still available for people, it had V5.5 - 6.1 on it. It also had all kinds of excellent software on it. Of course it was missing the layered products the V2 CD has. For the most part I agree on DECwindows, though I like having one system that can run it, and I normally just bring it up on my PowerMac using eXodus. There are a couple DECwindows apps I like to use. Still NiftyTelnet on my Mac can easily bring up a ton of terminal windows, so if that's all I need, that's the route I use. >How did Compaq expect to do as well as they could have by buying DEC >when they destroyed DEC? When I think of Compaq, I think of those >poorly designed IBM type toy PC kludges, not nicely designed hardware >that's useful and fun to play with as I did when I thought of DEC. >It's obvious that the microsoft virus has infected the brains of those >who run Compaq, and who've run DEC into the ground. Compaq has done a lot of bad, but they've also done a lot of good. Sure it's wierd seeing a row of Compaq Rack's standing where some *old* DEC gear used to stand, but inside those racks is some beautiful OpenVMS hardware! To bad it belongs to another group and I can't touch it! Compaq might not be doing a lot to advertise OpenVMS, but they're apparently doing more than DEC had in recent years. Besides this new Hobbyist program that we all love, came about after Compaq got ahold of the company. Compaq does have a lot of junky toy PC's, but they've also got some pretty amazing x86 boxes. Of course they're running a horrible OS. What is disturbing about Compaq is that they continue to push Windows and for the most part ignore the OS's that they own. Of course it you like VMS and want to see it successful, how about doing something about it like writing some software, or telling people how great it is. It's in desparate need of apps, and most people don't even know it is still around. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 12:12:48 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores >but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. There's a file floating about the net somewhere called "the interrupt list". It's a comprehensive list of the ints used by PC software. I have a very old copy saved somewhere; let me know if you can't find it. Warning; it's huge. Barring that, "Undocumented DOS" and "Dissecting DOS" are the ones on my bookshelf. "Dissecting DOS" presents the source code for a DOS clone in C. I'm not seeing "Undocumented DOS" at fatbrain, though. "Dissecting DOS" is at http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=020162687X Looks like there are other interesting books as well, although I don't know that I would buy them without getting a chance to look at them first: "Caldera DR-DOS Complete" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=1889492035 includes a CD-ROM that I would assume probably includes the source code for the DR-DOS kernel. That's the sort of assumption I'd like to check out by looking at the book before I plunk down my hard-earned cash, though. On the other hand, I already have the source to the DR-DOS kernel lying about... Caldera _used_ to have almost all of the DR-DOS documentation online. I'm not finding much now (I'm sure glad I downloaded a copy of it while it was available; now if I can just figure out where I saved it...); there's a page at http://www.drdos.com/, but all it offers is a download of a DOSEMU disk image for use under Linux. "FreeDOS Kernel" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=0879304367 looks to be a competitor to "Dissecting DOS". "Uninterrupted Interrupts" http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=0201409666 appears to be a hardcopy of the famed "interrupt list". -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 12:13:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals Message-ID: An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the old Macintoshes consume less electicity. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 12:13:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just tune around 3880khz(they move up or down a little maybe 3-4khz), every night there is at least a handful of old buzzards in there. Allison On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > It's just as well, he wouldn't be able to make much use of his ARC-5 > > transmitter on the air in un-modified condition. > > > > > > TORCH! > > Unbeliever! > > Tune into the vintage military radio nets on 80m. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:20:23 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge > to do the needed signal processing and presentation took > longer to develop. It's the subtleties of the reflected signal > that has information of greater interest beyond simple range. I must disagree, as the old A, B, and C-scopes (and derivatives) were present and used on nearly all radars until 1948 or so. The radarman did the signal processing in his head, mostly by looking at the (nearly*) raw video coming off the receiver. By the late 1950s, however, the signal processing did start to get complex (one of these days I have to rescue a vacuum tube based vector display from a guy. Hundreds of tubes.). *downconverted, of course, and maybe some anti-jam stuff thrown in (basically controlls to play with the AGC constants). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark.champion at am.sony.com Thu Jun 8 12:20:22 2000 From: mark.champion at am.sony.com (Mark Champion) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:33 2005 Subject: H89 Computer For Sale - $10? References: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> Message-ID: <008001bfd16d$d4bd9d20$4721892b@stg.sel.sony.com> I'm selling my H89 computer. I built it but never used it much. Consequently, it is really in mint condition. I've placed it on EBay with a starting bid of $10. Here's a picture and more info if anyone is interested. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=352955051 The computer is located in Seattle. Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 12:24:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Old Macs = cheap terminals (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14655.54973.245101.329782@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, R. D. Davis wrote: > An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty > of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple > Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than > terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals > running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such > as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the > old Macintoshes consume less electicity. I second this. There are several VERY high-quality terminal emulators available for Macs. That same Mac can also sit on the ethernet for lan access as well (for the later NuBus machines, that is)... -Dave McGuire From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 12:26:13 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I'm still kicking myself for not buying some 4040 (or was it 4004) CPU > chips, they had them for a couple of bucks, long ago... Yes, but now that everyone and his brother has them on Ebay, the value has dropped. Of course I have spend time looking for the boards as well, but I have not found them. And every time I am there, Phil shows me a new room that I have never been in (its a trip)! > Any idea if there are tuning units available to bring it into a ham band? > The one that's in there (TU-17 I think???) is for 2-3 MHz, so it missed > both of the obvious choices. TU-18-A covers the 80m band. Send your shipping address. And promise me you will never modify it or the transmitter. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 8 12:56:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: ClassicHam (was Re: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608105246.00d3b730@208.226.86.10> I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge represented on this group, but would like to respectfully suggest that once a conversation is off topic for both the group *and* the subject line under which it was started, that should be a very loud signal to the participants to take it elsewhere. At least change the subject line folks! Thanks, --Chuck At 01:20 PM 6/8/00 -0400, it was written: > > Radar is old, many years prewar but the knowledge > >I must disagree, as the old A, B, and C-scopes (and derivatives) were >present and used on nearly all radars until 1948 or so. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 8 12:47:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 7, 0 11:22:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000608/30e5e0aa/attachment.ksh From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 13:03:44 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals References: Message-ID: <20000608175846.90860.qmail@hotmail.com> You can get Mac SE's used for under $10 usually. These can have ethernet cards installed, makes a great terminal with datacomet or bettertelnet. I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals > > An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty > of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple > Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than > terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals > running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such > as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the > old Macintoshes consume less electicity. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:26:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200 References: <200006081440.HAA12326@oa.ptloma.edu> <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost> Message-ID: <20000608142648.A6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >If you'd like to boot DOS 2.11 (my recomendation) 128 K is sufficient >for DOS and most tools. It should be possible to strip it down to run >in as little as ~96 k, but below 64 K not even a complete boot is possible. > >DOS 1.X is able to run in 64 K, although it will be hard to find programs >still able to run - after the introduction of DOS 2.0 everybody switched >for the new file I/O (Unix style, without FCBs). FWIW, PC-DOS V2.0 runs OK in 64 KB. You can't fit much else in there with it, but it does come up OK. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:31:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu>; from ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:20AM -0700 References: <200006081617.JAA12392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000608143105.B6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:20AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores >but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list (which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation is accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll probably want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech Ref manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're still in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute some native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 13:33:00 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: R. D. Davis write: >An idea for who use classic computers: since we usually require plenty >of terminals to attach to our classic computers, those compact Apple >Macs, such as the 512K or SE, found in more plentiful supply than >terminals at hamfests, have one very good use: use them as terminals >running terminal emulation software. While other microcomptuers such >as IBM type toy PCs are also useful as terminals for computers, the >old Macintoshes consume less electicity. I wanted to do this bad for my Linux PC back in the '92-93 timeframe, before Linux was really able to run X-Windows. I wanted one because it was so nice and small, but in those days they were still out of my price range (especially since at that time I was a PC user). These days I use VT420's whenever possible since I can plug one terminal into two computers without any extra hardware. OTOH, I regularly use my G4 PowerMac as a Terminal :^) It makes a great X-Terminal using eXodus, using 100Mbit switched ethernet X-Windows/DECwindows is nice and fast :^) Plus NiftyTelnet is one of my favorite terminal emulators. I also like monitors with dual inputs, and Digital KVM switches :^) Still if I didn't have a good supply of DEC terminals I'd probably be using Compact Mac's. Another good solution for the terminally challenged is *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a terminal when nothing else is handy, and I'm currently looking for a more modern laptop with colour to use as an X-terminal. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Jun 8 13:41:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:26:13PM -0400 References: <20000606225222.A2709@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000608144159.C6268@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:26:13PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >Of course I have spend time looking for the boards as well, but I have >not found them. And every time I am there, Phil shows me a new room that >I have never been in (its a trip)! Too bad it's not really on the way anywhere, I'd love to drop on them some time but it's not worth ~14 hours each way! Ohio sure has a lot of wide open spaces... >TU-18-A covers the 80m band. Send your shipping address. And promise me you >will never modify it or the transmitter. Wow! Well let me know how much you want for it, but before I commit to the deal, do you know where I can find documentation on the BC-223? I have nothing at all on it, so I don't know what it takes to feed one, and I don't want to swear I'll never modify anything until I know how dependent it is on external stuff that I'll never have (there are a couple of big gnarly multi-pin connectors on the side so I'm wondering if there's a control box or what -- even though there seem to be enough switches and knobs for everything I can think of already on the front panel). Boy I really wish I hadn't forgotten my Cantenna at an old apartment, well if it's only 10 W then I should be able to solder up a bunch of 2W carbon comp resistors and that will be good enough to play with it before sicking it on the airwaves. I can only imagine what the output impedance wants to be, with the big ceramic separate outputs. Somewhere I still have most of a roll of honest-to-god ladderline, but I don't know if a full-wave loop would fit in my yard (guessing that the impedance is a bunch higher than 50 ohms). Thanks!!! John Wilson KC1P/2 D Bit From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 13:38:59 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Legal help for computer rescuers] > > people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you > > a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) > > Is that what's known as a 'file transfer protocol'? So, that's what FTP originally meant! :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 8 13:45:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: <20000608175846.90860.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Message-ID: >I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss >linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) Hey! I like that idea! I've got a SE/30 with a SCSI-Ethernet adapter, I'd not thought of turning it into a Sniffer, and I've been wanting to build one for when I want to see what's going on with my network. I'd never even thought of using a Mac for that, I'd been planning on getting an older PC laptop for that. Actually if I were to use a Mac, I'd probably go with my PowerBook 540c that I don't use much any more. GACK!!!! $995.00 Suggested Retail price?!?!? I don't suppose you know of any *affordable* sniffer's for the Mac? It looks like a beauty, and even does DECnet (so it does everything I'd need from the looks of it), but that's way to much for hobbyist use. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 14:15:43 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals References: Message-ID: <20000608191057.63093.qmail@hotmail.com> Try to snag an older version. I picked up Etherpeek 3.0 for $50 from a used software store on-line. Works fine, or you can do linux/MacBSD and get a sniffer for free. No pretty X interface though. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals > >I've got an SE/30 I use as a packet sniffer with Etherpeek. Or just toss > >linux on one (The SE/30, SE's won't run linux) > > Hey! I like that idea! I've got a SE/30 with a SCSI-Ethernet adapter, I'd > not thought of turning it into a Sniffer, and I've been wanting to build > one for when I want to see what's going on with my network. I'd never even > thought of using a Mac for that, I'd been planning on getting an older PC > laptop for that. Actually if I were to use a Mac, I'd probably go with my > PowerBook 540c that I don't use much any more. > > > GACK!!!! $995.00 Suggested Retail price?!?!? I don't suppose you know of > any *affordable* sniffer's for the Mac? It looks like a beauty, and even > does DECnet (so it does everything I'd need from the looks of it), but > that's way to much for hobbyist use. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 14:19:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old Macs = cheap terminals In-Reply-To: Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals (Jason McBrien) References: <20000608191057.63093.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14655.61873.696148.784695@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, Jason McBrien wrote: > Try to snag an older version. I picked up Etherpeek 3.0 for $50 from a used > software store on-line. Works fine, or you can do linux/MacBSD and get a > sniffer for free. No pretty X interface though. I seem to remember having seen a gorgeous GUI-fied Unix packet sniffer package from Curtin University in Australia. PacketMan or something? -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 14:23:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: <20000608144159.C6268@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Boy I really wish I hadn't forgotten my Cantenna at an old apartment, well > if it's only 10 W then I should be able to solder up a bunch of 2W carbon > comp resistors and that will be good enough to play with it before sicking That would work, use series parallel combo of 100ohm 2W (8 of them) to get 50, put them in a paint can of mineral oil and it will take at least 30-40W and work to 30+mhz if assembled using or copper strips. > be, with the big ceramic separate outputs. Somewhere I still have most of > a roll of honest-to-god ladderline, but I don't know if a full-wave loop > would fit in my yard (guessing that the impedance is a bunch higher than > 50 ohms). Most common mods are to go from balanced to coax. Ladder line feeding a 60ft end fed zepp or marconi will do well. At that power level you have to make sure the modulation is good and very clean or you loose inteligbility. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 14:53:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <20000608195359.2203.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Another good solution for the terminally challenged is > *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only > real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a > terminal when nothing else is handy... I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the Kermit-ly challenged, modern versions contain an IP stack; just add packet driver; that's how my Commodore Colt is on my network). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jun 8 14:55:27 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Z-Fest In-Reply-To: <20000608142648.A6268@dbit.dbit.com> References: <393FD6EC.1383.A7E91E6@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:25:00PM +0200 Message-ID: <3940164F.14505.B762FAC@localhost> Since it's only one month away, a small reminder for the anual Z-Fest 2000 on Saturday, Sunday 8th and 9th of July in Gueglingen (near Heilbronn, Germany). Two days of fun, among die hard CP/M nerds. From old 8-Bit stuff to brand new _superpowered_ Z280 systems in a cosy seting. http://www.zfest.de/ Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Jun 8 14:53:10 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfd183$2cab2d80$36e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > I happen to have intimate knowledge of what goes on in plastic -> manufacturing -> > plants and plastic molding facilities. The _raw_ plastics are -> excellent. -> > However, -> > there are many plastic suppliers who take the raw plastic -> pellets and blend -> > in -> > additives to reduce cost. -> -> This is a trick as old as the hills (and one of the reasons the old -> plastics fell apart quickly). And the new plastics will also, since this practice is still widely in use today. Even the dyes used to color plastics degrade its performance over time. Bill From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 15:25:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted DOS idea In-Reply-To: <20000608143105.B6268@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Jun 8, 0 02:31:05 pm" Message-ID: <200006082025.NAA08734@oa.ptloma.edu> ::>Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of bookstores ::>but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. :: ::People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list ::(which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), ::but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation is ::accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll probably ::want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech Ref ::manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at ::very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're still ::in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute some ::native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. Well, it would be a sullied implementation. I'm thinking of having a native 6502 IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (and probably COMMAND.COM), so the INTs would need to be simulated by that: hence the list :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge ------- From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 15:30:20 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home References: Message-ID: <20000608202523.80042.qmail@hotmail.com> I. It would not have fit in my garage much less my house. II. My dedicated 220V Line is being taxed enough as it is. III. I was alone and far far from home. IV. As I approached the dumpster the manager of the property disposition started chasing me with a broom. V. I've already rescued a Data General Nova 3 which is much more fascinating to play with. BLINKENLIGHTS!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Sellam Ismail > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home > > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > How come all the cool stuff is on the west coast? The coolest thing I've > > > seen in the midwest is two, still shrinkwrapped IBM 370 mainframes IN A > > > DUMPSTER. One of those economy sized dumpsters you use to throw away houses > > > with. Alas, my sunbird won't quite hold one... > > > > WHAT!? And you made no attempt to rescue them? > > That's what I was wondering. A car being too small is no excuse. > Superglue yourself to the 370s, and demand that the refuse-truck > driver pick it (and you) up and take it (and you) to your house or you > won't unglue yourself! Some things just call for drastic > measures. ;-) ...and don't forget to offer to pay the driver a nice > tip for his time. If that fails, just tell him his truck will go > {k.*.a.*.b.*.0.*.0.*.m} if he doesn't cooperate, after all, you are on > a mission of computer preservation, which, as we all know, may call > for drastic measures (oh, yeah... don't worry, I'm sure the members of > this group might consider helping with the legal fees if the wrong > people take what you say too seriously. ...or we'll at least send you > a cake with plans for a making file hidden in it. Won't we? :-) :-) :-) > > Seriously, did you not contact someone about allowing you to have this > hauled to your house, where you could have at least kept it outdoors > in shipping pallets and covered with a tarp, as well as the wrap, > until someone could have rescued it? > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 16:07:05 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation II GPX needs a home In-Reply-To: <20000608202523.80042.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Jason McBrien wrote: > I. It would not have fit in my garage much less my house. No problem. Put in in the front or back yard in a make-shift shelter and just use it in the winter, attaching ducts and fans to your house to save on your heating bill (if you heat via natural gas, oil, coal or wood). :-) > II. My dedicated 220V Line is being taxed enough as it is. No problem. A call yo your utility company can get you more power. :-) > III. I was alone and far far from home. No problem. That's what office movers are for. Better yet, pretend to be a property owner and call a refuse company to "empty" the dumpster... that is, into a waiting truck a few miles away. > IV. As I approached the dumpster the manager of the property disposition > started chasing me with a broom. No problem. Just use an RL02 cartridge as a shield. :-) ..or grab the broom away from him and pretend you're insane, while offering him a bribe. > V. I've already rescued a Data General Nova 3 which is much more fascinating > to play with. BLINKENLIGHTS!!! Ok, I can't argue with that. ...Although you can add blinkenlights to the IBM system, as there's plenty of sheet metal there to drill holes for light sockets into. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Thu Jun 8 16:44:19 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel up to the PC running Sim. Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of getting something like this to work? -- Tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 8 16:50:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> from "Eros, Anthony" at Jun 8, 0 04:44:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000608/5eaffd2b/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 17:22:56 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <004101bfd198$18f1d7c0$0400c0a8@winbook> This may be workable if the PDP-11 simulator runs under DOS or LINUX. If it runs under Windows, the OS will interfere with your attempts to talk directly to I/O. If you have a version for LINUX, you'll need one of the EPP port drivers, but that's what I'd recommend you attempt first. EPP uses the parallel printer port to mux and steer data into your target application. You must understand what it does, and how slowly, ( it's more or less rate-limited to about a 4 MB/sec transfer rate, but that's an asymptote.) If you find a way to make it work, and it works quite straightforwardly under DOS, then you write addresses and commands to one location mapped into the parallel data port, 0x37C, and data to 0x37C. The hardware will generate strobes to facilitate such transfers, so you don't have to wiggle the strobes with software. It has a Data Strobe and an Address strobe, provides for an interrupt if you want one, and various other features, none of which require you use them. Though this form of bus-isolated I/O is very tempting, it's a good idea to keep in mind that the IC in which the printer port lives is normally a high-pin-count device soldered to the motherboard. If you break it, you have to use an off-motherboard circuit to provide the printer port, as well as whatever other peripherals are lost along with it. That, these days, can include lots of functions you'd rather not lose. It's a good idea to isolate your circuitry from the motherboard with series resistors, or even picofuses, and provide adequate buffering to make it safe to use. If you know enough about the PC and the way the simulator runs on it, you need merely drive your indicators in a way that reflects the status of the simulated PDP-n, hving patched your code into the simulator's primary dispatch loop. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eros, Anthony To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:44 PM Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > up to the PC running Sim. > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > getting something like this to work? > > -- Tony > From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 17:31:07 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Perverted Mac-OS idea (was: Perverted DOS idea) Message-ID: <20000608223108.87999.qmail@hotmail.com> >::>Where can I find a list of INTs DOS uses? I checked a couple of >bookstores >::>but most of them aren't too helpful with low-level DOS. >:: >::People have already pointed you at Ralf Brown's wonderful interrupt list >::(which BTW is available in webified form at http://ctyme.com/rbrown.htm), >::but just to point out the obvious: it doesn't matter! If your emulation >is >::accurate enough to be useful, DOS will take care of itself. You'll >probably >::want to provide your own BIOS though, and for that the IBM PC or AT Tech >Ref >::manuals are wonderful. Computer Reset used to have NOS tech ref books at >::very good prices, don't know if that's still true or even if they're >still >::in business. Anyway, obviously the BIOS is your chance to substitute >some >::native I/O w/o having to muck with DOS itself. > >Well, it would be a sullied implementation. I'm thinking of having a native >6502 IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (and probably COMMAND.COM), so the INTs would >need >to be simulated by that: hence the list :-) > >-- >----------------------------- personal page: >http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu >-- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge >------- No way! You wouldn't want to ruin a Commodore 64 with that crap! Hell, while you guys are at it, why don't you try to port Mac-OS, or worse yet, MS Windows, to the Commodore 64. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 17:31:36 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <004701bfd199$4f4e5b80$0400c0a8@winbook> There are plug-in boards that provide an extra SPP/EPP/ECP port, which is safer than simply using the motherboard-resident one. That would be less trouble if you were to break it than would be the one on the motherboard. The EPP port is more desirable, IMHO, simply because it isolates your "hobby-project" from the inards of the computer. It also provides a handy connector, and a simple protocol by which to provide yourself with up to 256 I/O ports in either direction, without having to open the box except to plug in the parallel port card. If one happened to come with a DLL with which you can write WINDOWS code for your port, so much the better! One rather important aspect, of course, is that the printer port can really drive the properly terminated cable, while a "normal" MOS LSI for parallel I/O, e.g. 8255, 6821, etc, can't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > getting something like this to work? > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. > > The hardware shouldn't be too bad. The 11/45 frontpanel board is just the > lights, switches, and lamp drivers IIRC. So you'd need to provide : > > Power supplies (+5V for the logic and +15V for the lamps IIRC). > Input ports on the PC to take inputs from the switches > Output ports on the PC to drive the lamps. > > You could either build your own I/O port cards using (say) the 8255 > chip, or buy them ready made ($$$ since they don't sell in the quantities > of most PC bits), or with a bit (OK, a lot) of logic, hang the whole > thing off a printer port. > > Then you have to modify the simulator to talk to these I/O ports. Just a > Simple Matter of Programming (tm). Eeek! > > -tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 16:49:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <002001bfd193$79422940$7364c0d0@ajp166> >I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local >box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with >Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no >flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. Allison From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 17:45:33 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smarty.smart.net Thu Jun 8 17:50:14 2000 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200006082250.SAA23491@smarty.smart.net> I found this on comp.sys.3b1 in case anyone can save it: ------- start of forwarded message ------- Path: news.smart.net!outfeed2.news.cais.net!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news4.mco.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> From: Average Torvaldsian Organization: Happy enough without any, thanks for asking... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.37 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.att,comp.sys.3b1 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.231.1 X-Trace: news4.mco 960142535 216.78.231.1 (Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT Xref: news.smart.net comp.sys.att:2874 comp.sys.3b1:1794 I have a 3B2/600 to give to whomever wants it. It belonged to the local AT&T group here in Orlando FL (as an asset tag), and is apparently the only survivor of three that fed Usenet into the Central Florida area. It works fine, boots without problem, and includes a console terminal, keyboard, user books, and a number of tapes. One of those is said to be a bootable tape with a complete backup. Sixteen megs ram, two 120 meg SCSI drives, 5.25" floppy and tape drives. It does not have an net card, though: that died and was removed before I got it, nor does it have any disks. I don't have any time to devote to the poor thing, it looks all forlorn sitting in the corner, and I'd really like to see it go to someone who has the time to get the thing running. Obviously, due to the size and weight, I can not ship it, but it is here to be picked up in east Orange County, Fla, pretty much anytime. If you are close by in a surrounding county, I would be willing to bring it to you. If interested, or and we'll arrange pickup/drop off. Max. (ps: during the last week of June and first week of July, I will be in the Davenport (Scott County) area of Iowa, and if someone in the surrounding area is interested in it, let me know, as I'd also be willing to bring it for delivery.) -- All parts should go together without forcing... By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925. ------- end of forwarded message ------- -- -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Jun 8 17:55:31 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> How many people on this list have fantasized for even a moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all the lights & switches accurate and active? P.S. a PIC is a pretty good way to get 32-1 signals in and out over an SIO line. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jun 8 18:17:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10> >Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any >computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and >switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack >panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of >the PDP-11s of incomplete design? Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. The address lines are present, just wire those up to lights. Various signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build the switch register to deposit directly into memory. Decoding an address for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? Displaying registers would be difficult to do "on the fly" however you could probably force the CPU to execute a MOV Rx, #DISPLY fairly easily. On a tangentially related subject there was a recent series of articles in Circuit Cellar Ink on building your own CPU in an FPGA (see www.fpgacpu.org) and it included a VGA interface (which they displayed characters on) clearly however if you were using it as God intended you would create a virtual front panel :-) --Chuck From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Jun 8 18:21:18 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I haven't had -that- particular fantasy, but another one... ... creating copies of certain "classic" machines. If you were able to buy, say, an original Nova in a box that for all the detail you wanted was the same as the original, and inside had the same chips on the same size PC board, would that be cool? Sure, you're have to use materials you could get today to do it, but accurately done, it might be interesting. I'm -not- saying building up clones of certain rare old computers and trying to pass them off as originals, but rather, trying to make clones that are undistinguishable from the original. Maybe it's nuts, but, as Tony recently said, we're all nuts on this list! ;-) -Mike p.s. To those who posted pointers to the "6-chip" Woz diskette interface, thanks! Nice stuff. On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > P.S. a PIC is a pretty good way to get 32-1 signals in and > out over an SIO line. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 18:34:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <20000608233422.605.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and > have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard jack, but there isn't one on an XT laptop; I was just going to wire one in). There are parameters you can tell the PE3 to use when connecting the driver, but I'd have to look them up; I haven't actually used a parallel port adapter since I was at McMurdo. > What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, > linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. AFAIK, there will never be any newer drivers because Xircom isn't forthcoming with their internals details. I tried for a long time to get info out of them so I could adapt a PE3 to the Amiga, but they formally rejected my written propsal because they didn't want to be in anything but the DOS market. Since then, they've been more flexible, so the newer PCMCIA Xircom NICs work, but I have this CE-10BT that only works under older stuff (fortunately, I do happen to have a PCMCIA NIC or two that _is_ supported under Linux; my CE3B-100BTX the only thing I have for the laptop that will go 100Mbps and isn't Cardbus). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 8 18:39:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> (John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com) References: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000608233931.29538.qmail@brouhaha.com> > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? And active? How would they be active? I don't even know what most of them do, but they generally control hardware that isn't going to be useful except in an actual Apollo mission or equivalent. Certainly I have no reason to want to be able to control a secondary coolant loop pump or SPS gimbal motors, for instance. As it happens, I have an "Apollo 13 Controls and Displays" poster less then three feet from where I'm sitting. See http://www.papertrainer.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 19:27:01 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you ask. > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:06:42 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: DEC Hinote supervisor password Message-ID: <200006090106.VAA26433@world.std.com> I know this is on the more contemporary side of the 10 year rule, but could someone contact me off-list who knows how to reset or override the supervisor password on a DEC Hinote (not ultra, not 2000)? Thanks in advance... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 20:16:00 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (Richard Erlacher) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> PC replaces Cray...film at 11. Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of computing. -Dave McGuire On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R. D. Davis > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to > do > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front > panel > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance > of > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you > ask. > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > -- > > R. D. Davis > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > 410-744-4900 > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 20:16:04 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > the lights & switches accurate and active? No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize about having my money wasted. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Jun 8 20:20:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Blinkenlights and Simulation In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07C19AB2@ALFEXC5> from "Eros, Anthony" at "Jun 8, 2000 04:44:19 pm" Message-ID: <200006090120.VAA12711@bg-tc-ppp745.monmouth.com> > Here's a question for the group. I have a PC running Bob Supnik's PDP-11 > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to do > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front panel > up to the PC running Sim. > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance of > getting something like this to work? > > -- Tony > > What I'd love to see is the 11/45 front panel added to the Sim under X11 so it would have an emulated panel like the Mac and Doug Jones' PDP8e emulator. Any Unix/C/X11 programmers out there? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rdd at smart.net Thu Jun 8 20:30:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? Whether I've "worked" with computers as a hobby at home, for clients, or for employers, I've always felt as though they were toys to play with and to experiment with. Of course, I did make sure that my employers didn't see me in the computer rooms with screwdrivers, etc. as I took things apart to examine them, although I did get in big trouble when a former supervisor, who told me that there were no programming languages installed on the company's VAX, discovered a bunch of assembly code in with my files... I sure proved her wrong! :-) ...of course I hacked a game of adventure in DCL there as well, I showed here again that there was indeed a programming language on the VAX, and that wasn't exactly appreciated when discovered either, oddly. Ah well... some employers can be rather strange. I don't have to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 8 20:51:11 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400 References: <000501bfd19c$a6801b20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize > about having my money wasted. Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. -Seth From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 20:50:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > computing. > > -Dave McGuire > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: R. D. Davis > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd like to > > do > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the front > > panel > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest chance > > of > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what you > > ask. > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then the > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > -- > > > R. D. Davis > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Thu Jun 8 20:54:48 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <001f01bfd1b5$b355e5a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Unfortunately, though the behemoths of yesteryear still do what was then asked of them, what's evolved more than anything else is what people (oh, yes ... the people have changed a mite, too) ask of them. Since they CAN play this week's fantasy game, they do, and since they can show detailed pictures of the smut, gore, or whatever else someone's into, they do that, too. The CRAY and VAX machines didn't do that as well. That's not to say they couldn't, but, since nobody would pay what they'd have had to, they didn't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements and > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, > that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that > most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. > > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? > Whether I've "worked" with computers as a hobby at home, for clients, > or for employers, I've always felt as though they were toys to play > with and to experiment with. Of course, I did make sure that my > employers didn't see me in the computer rooms with screwdrivers, > etc. as I took things apart to examine them, although I did get in big > trouble when a former supervisor, who told me that there were no > programming languages installed on the company's VAX, discovered a > bunch of assembly code in with my files... I sure proved her wrong! > :-) ...of course I hacked a game of adventure in DCL there as well, I > showed here again that there was indeed a programming language on the > VAX, and that wasn't exactly appreciated when discovered either, > oddly. Ah well... some employers can be rather strange. I don't have > to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I > found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard > shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the > building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next > break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to > go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) > > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 20:31:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, sjm wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize > > about having my money wasted. > > Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. The Sethinator! Touche! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:51:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <007f01bfd1b5$f98cc020$7364c0d0@ajp166> >Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. > >The address lines are present, just wire those up to lights. Various Nope! they are address/data multiplexed... you have to latch the address and data to display it. >signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build nope, it will bus timout on you. >the switch register to deposit directly into memory. Decoding an address >for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as Yes it would. >well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? Displaying >registers would be difficult to do "on the fly" however you could probably >force the CPU to execute a MOV Rx, #DISPLY fairly easily. Software loop on an interrupt would write to static latches to do that. >Circuit Cellar Ink on building your own CPU in an FPGA (see >www.fpgacpu.org) and it included a VGA interface (which they displayed >characters on) clearly however if you were using it as God intended you >would create a virtual front panel :-) interesting. The reason for frontpannels in the first place was more diagnostic in nature and to start them up. When ram and rom got cheaper along with mass storage the whole point of the frontpannel becomes passe`. My 8f would be hard to use without it as it has no rom and it's a maintenance tool. From the other side, it would be pointless on the 11/73 as the rom monitor is much more useful than any front pannel. The ALTAIR was the machine that made having a frontpannel when rom would do clear for me. It was a lot of hardware to do what a simple rom card could do better. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 20:41:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) Message-ID: <007e01bfd1b5$f789eb40$7364c0d0@ajp166> >At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- >directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer >models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 Ah ha, I wondered. >can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard >jack, but there isn't one on an XT laptop; I was just going to wire >one in). There are parameters you can tell the PE3 to use when connecting I know, remember I said I have a few. I'll have to try one on the XT laptop. Allison From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 21:05:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Australian Totalisator Message-ID: Here is a great website that documents a until now unknown (to me at least) tabulating system invented in Australia in around 1913 used at horse tracks. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~bconlon/ It is a pretty amazing history. It extends into the digital computer age and goes into some detail about the use of PDP 11's which eventually replaced the mechanical and then electromechanical design. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jun 8 22:15:07 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:34 2005 Subject: Fixin' der Tandy 2 floppydrivenspiegelthingengruppebochs Message-ID: <200006090315.UAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> Good news und bat news. I got a nice Tandy 200 package today, unit, power supplies, manuals and even some Club 100 disks in the original hard case. Very nice and the machine, after a little of fiddling and a cold start, is running well. That's the good news. The bad news, alas, is the 3.5" RS-232 floppy that came with it. (Yes, RS-232 floppy drive; hopefully someone has seen one of these.) It will not power up on either the power supply (original power supply, btw, which works with the M200 just fine), or new batteries. All it does is flash its low battery light briefly, spin for about a second, and shut off. I took a look at the board but couldn't see anything physically shot. Anyone have experience with these drives? What are my options? Part of getting this thing was so that I would have a floppy to save on, and maybe even get my 8201A to talk to it :-) Thanks in advance. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. -- Kehlog Albran ----------- From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:09:11 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of which I didn't have. Wordstar Ver. 3 Spellstar Correctstar Mailmerge The Speller Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) Polyplot Statistix Ver. 2.0 Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) 1988 Subscriber's disk Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) 100/150 System Demo 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) 150 Computer Tutor 150 MS Basic 150 Application Master 150 MS Pascal 150 System Work disk 150 Application Work disk 100 series MS Fortran These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my FTP site soon. Ernest From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 8 22:09:09 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000608185110.A2382@loomcom.com> References: ; from rdd@smart.net on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400 Message-ID: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Date sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:51:11 -0700 From: sjm To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:04PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote: > > > How many people on this list have fantasized for even a > > > moment building an Apollo spaceflight simulator with all > > > the lights & switches accurate and active? > > > > No. Such space flights amount to little more than a massive waste of > > taxpayer money, and take place just to appease those who are into > > science fiction, or who make money from it, and I don't fantasize about > > having my money wasted. > > Yeah! Just like that damn pesky ARPAnet. > > -Seth > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could look like a tremendous waste of money and time. The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! We have everything we need, right here." I've been following the space program for as long as I can remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:10:40 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200006082250.SAA23491@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: <000101bfd1c0$4ada26c0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> There are a couple of these at REPC in Seattle also, if anyone is interested. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of R. D. Davis Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:50 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... (fwd) I found this on comp.sys.3b1 in case anyone can save it: ------- start of forwarded message ------- Path: news.smart.net!outfeed2.news.cais.net!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1. bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news4.m co.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <393A683B.F0D3731C@bellsouth.net> From: Average Torvaldsian Organization: Happy enough without any, thanks for asking... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.37 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.att,comp.sys.3b1 Subject: 3B2/600 Free to Whomever wants it... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.231.1 X-Trace: news4.mco 960142535 216.78.231.1 (Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:35 EDT Xref: news.smart.net comp.sys.att:2874 comp.sys.3b1:1794 I have a 3B2/600 to give to whomever wants it. It belonged to the local AT&T group here in Orlando FL (as an asset tag), and is apparently the only survivor of three that fed Usenet into the Central Florida area. It works fine, boots without problem, and includes a console terminal, keyboard, user books, and a number of tapes. One of those is said to be a bootable tape with a complete backup. Sixteen megs ram, two 120 meg SCSI drives, 5.25" floppy and tape drives. It does not have an net card, though: that died and was removed before I got it, nor does it have any disks. I don't have any time to devote to the poor thing, it looks all forlorn sitting in the corner, and I'd really like to see it go to someone who has the time to get the thing running. Obviously, due to the size and weight, I can not ship it, but it is here to be picked up in east Orange County, Fla, pretty much anytime. If you are close by in a surrounding county, I would be willing to bring it to you. If interested, or and we'll arrange pickup/drop off. Max. (ps: during the last week of June and first week of July, I will be in the Davenport (Scott County) area of Iowa, and if someone in the surrounding area is interested in it, let me know, as I'd also be willing to bring it for delivery.) -- All parts should go together without forcing... By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925. ------- end of forwarded message ------- -- -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ernestls at home.com Thu Jun 8 22:18:00 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights (pack o' wild dogs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bfd1c1$5125fa80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I don't have to wonder what that employer would have done if they found out that I found a stray dog outside during my break (I was working the graveyard shift at the time, about a decade ago), and took it back into the building, let it sleep on the couch in the waiting room during my next break, and roam around the computer room until it was time for me to go home. I found the dog's owner for it the next day. :-) :-) :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 I used to work for as a network admin for a snowboard company outside of Seattle, and dogs were allowed in the office. Every morning, there would be a pack of wild dogs making the rounds, desk to desk, begging for food, etc.. We had 22 dogs in the office at one time, on certain days, and they put on quite a show. It was fun but I'll bet that you won't see it happening soon at the offices downtown. Ernest From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 22:33:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (R. D. Davis) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 8, R. D. Davis wrote: > It's not only bizarre, it's apparently someone's idea of a sick joke, > that the most boring and poorly designed systems are the ones that > most people depend on these days which have replaced the VAXen, etc. A sick joke, indeed. > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? This is a good point. While I will slap anyone who walks into my computer room (containing about twenty machines, no PCs, well over a terabyte of disk storage, one Cray...some "classic" machines, some not) and calls anything a "toy"...I enjoy working with these systems so much that I can honestly call it "fun". As much fun as retrocomputing on the older PDP and VAX systems, as a matter of fact. So is it really that offensive to call them "toys"? Maybe not. One must not forget, however, that there *are* PDPs, VAXen, and Crays that are *not* so old. The PC marketeers would have everyone believe that anything that isn't a PC is old technology. That simply isn't the case. There are new (current technology) PDP11 systems (Mentec), there are new (albeit based on older technology) VAXen, and there are certainly new Crays. It's a stretch, but it seems that preserving "classic" computers is almost an exercise in preserving anything that's not a current Windoze box. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 8 22:34:31 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (Richard Erlacher) References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <14656.26055.814976.217001@phaduka.neurotica.com> For a lot of things, maybe...but lots of computational tasks simply aren't well suited to running on a thousand tiny buzzing Intel processors. -Dave McGuire On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at > 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave McGuire > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > > computing. > > > > -Dave McGuire > > > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements > and > > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: R. D. Davis > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd > like to > > > do > > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the > front > > > panel > > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest > chance > > > of > > > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what > you > > > ask. > > > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then > the > > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > R. D. Davis > > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jun 8 22:41:18 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Q-bus (was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights) Message-ID: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >Interesting idea, a Q-bus front panel. > > > >signals are there as well. A DMA cycle can take forever so you could build > > nope, it will bus timout on you. Boy did we find that out the hard way. The Software Results Q-Board was built back in the days of the MicroVAX-I and MicroPDP-11. The designers picked some time (by tapping off of a stage on a divide-by-N counter) to timeout while waiting for a DMA cycle. It was well outside the Q-bus spec of the day. This board worked in MicroVAX-II and -III designs with no complaint. Eventually, someone wanted to stick a Q-Board in a VAX 4000 with a TLZ04 interface. By the time this machine came out, the Q-bus was no longer implemented in the way it once was. Certain cards were no longer "in spec". The upshot of this was that the TLZ04 interface could grab the bus longer than the Q-Board would wait. The fix was to redesign the bus timeout circuit (a cut and a jump and a new PAL) because DEC sure wasn't going to change their interface to work in an older Qbus box. It took us quite a while to find this one because our board didn't change and there were no problems in 99% of the VAX 4000s out there. It was a piggy controller. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From foo at siconic.com Thu Jun 8 21:43:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > We have everything we need, right here." Bad example :) > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Yeah! ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jun 8 23:21:36 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. > > Yeah! I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we going to find a place to ship Trent Lott? From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 00:16:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could > look like a tremendous waste of money and time. Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Is the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have originated without government intervention and become just as popular? > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets everywhere. :-) :-) :-) > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > We have everything we need, right here." Hmmm... interesting to think about. > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. You may be surprised that I agree with you: there are other reasons besides that. For example, the space program also exists so that large corporations can make billions of dollars in profits and use some of those profits to grant favors to the politicians who helped them make the profits extorted from taxpayers. More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a relatively small number of carefully selected people and other creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point in that? However, at the rate things are going, we'll probably cause our own extinction because of overpopulation and the resulting damage to the environment, long before we can find another planet to destroy. > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their abilities have been put to better use for society? > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. Yes, but I wonder how much of this is actually necessary, and if it really does do much to improve the quality of people's lives. After all, the technology used in building comfortable houses to live in has been stable for many years. The automobile hasn't really improved much since the 1970s. The field of medicine would probably have done just as well, and perhaps better, if the money was spent on it, and, who knows, those horrid HMOs may never have even come to exist. Have the foods we eat improved as a result of the space program? Have people become kinder and more civil to one another as a result of the space program? Has the space program had any positive influence on spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that can also slice the one who created it. Perhaps it's been useful for the strategic defense initiative, but, that's been delayed and our most trustworthy and esteemed (<-sarcasm intended) president has crawled on his hands and knees to Russia asking for their permission for us to implement it! Perhaps he's so used to crawling on his hands and knees submitting to Hillary that he just can't help this, but that's no excuse, is it? I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking something, I'd very much like to know about it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 00:35:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we going to find > a place to ship Trent Lott? ROFL! :-) Hopefully it will be a place where he can't continue to protect horse abusers... I understand he's all for the protection of the torture, called soring, that some Tennessee Walker horses endure in order for their walk to be "ehnanced." Maybe it will be to some planet where they'll apply those chemical irritants to Lott's lower limbs to teach him how to walk so as to better entertain the aliens. ObClassiccmp: ------------- Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their houses in the winter in place of a furnace? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 9 00:51:19 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14656.34263.394797.149187@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 9, R. D. Davis wrote: > ObClassiccmp: > ------------- > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? I haven't run a heater in winter for quite some time. I have a small electric/ceramic heater in the bedroom because it's difficult to move the heat that far away from the machine room. But I only need that on the coldest of days. None of those are really my "classic" machines but I figured it'd fit. :) -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 9 02:08:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their >houses in the winter in place of a furnace? Well, the room in the house with all the computers (well, except the ones living in the garage) has the heating blocked off, and often has the window open in the middle of the Winter. It also happens to be the room that has the Airconditioner which gets used during the spring, summer and fall. The rest of the house is usually pretty chilly by comparison. Zane OTOH, most of that heat comes from 1 21" monitor, and the real problem is the design of this house. Even without the computer equipment on this room is considerably hotter than the rest of the house. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 02:06:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) It's OK, R.D. You can take your foot out of your mouth now. > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. Ok, stop there. No? Sigh... > On the other hand, the Internet is a great wasy for some people to > wasts vast sums of time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the > government to spy on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been > set up. Is the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well > designed feature disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, > isn't it likely that some other, perhaps more secure, form of > communication may have originated without government intervention and > become just as popular? Remember what I was saying about your foot? > More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may > become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the > survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt > that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a > relatively small number of carefully selected people and other > creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the > majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point > in that? The problem is not the sheer number of people on this planet, but the percentage of those that are complete and utter morons. > Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and > abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their > abilities have been put to better use for society? Yeah! We could use a LOT more creative ways to kill and maim people. Nukes just didn't go far enough, eh? > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > something, I'd very much like to know about it. Dude, one word: TANG! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 02:07:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather drool spit) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > ObClassiccmp: > ------------- > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? TANG! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 9 03:23:13 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights" (Jun 9, 0:08) References: Message-ID: <10006090923.ZM1528@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 9, 0:08, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On June 9, R. D. Davis wrote: > >Do any computer preservationists seriously use their systems to heat their > >houses in the winter in place of a furnace? > > Well, the room in the house with all the computers (well, except the ones > living in the garage) has the heating blocked off, Same with my office/computer room; there are two machines and an old (and therefore relatively power-hungry) hub that are on 24/7. It's a small room and has the heating off and the two adjacent rooms have the heating turned way down. There's usually a machine in the garage on 24/7 in the winter; if ever it's not on, there's a heater and/or dehumidifier there to protect the tools and 'puters. > OTOH, most of that heat comes from 1 21" monitor, and the real problem is > the design of this house. Even without the computer equipment on this room > is considerably hotter than the rest of the house. Funny how that happens, isn't it? Mine's the same: upper floor, centre room, just at the top of the stairs, seems to collect all the heat from downstairs -- and has a 20" Sony GDM1961/VRT-19HA. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 9 04:05:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals) In-Reply-To: <002001bfd193$79422940$7364c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3940CF6C.24629.E4947AC@localhost> > >I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a > >local > >box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with > >Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no > >flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the > Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and > have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. > What I'd like to find is a driver for that that works under win95, nt4, > linux or Minix. the ones I have are dos, win3.x and maybe OS/2 V??. Exactly what Julian Stacey did at VCFe for his NS32032 system. AFAIR he's always using old DOS laptops as terminals for his unix boxes. Gruss H. BTW: Herbert Kramer has put up some Lomos of VCFe 1.0 http://home.germany.net/101-246057/vcfe/vcfe.html -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From at258 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 07:29:31 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. > > Ok, stop there. No? Sigh... Yeah, the quality of the tool is over rated. > The problem is not the sheer number of people on this planet, but the percentage of those that are complete and utter morons. Dude, it's both. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 9 08:08:44 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802A07@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@smart.net] > Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 1:35 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > I think the space programme is invaluable. How else are we > going to find > > a place to ship Trent Lott? I for one, was glad when Congressman John Glenn went back into space. Although, I was a bit disappointed when he returned. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/0b64e7c9/attachment.html From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jun 9 08:13:24 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6802A08@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > > Do any computer preservationists seriously use their > systems to heat their > > houses in the winter in place of a furnace? > I live in South Florida... Even a PC will keep my house warm. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/4cb24fef/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 08:09:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > > Is it not true, however, that all computers are toys, and that PDP's, > > VAXen and Crays could have been considered toys when they were new? Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. Yes I have some machines that may qualify. Most may qualify as they are no longer used for revenue (often). However, at their time they were serious machines built to do serious work for the most part. So the closest thing I have to a toy is my trs80 (mod1). The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. PCs I have a hard time takething them seriously despite their enormous processing power. They arent built for the most part like a serviceable and relaible tool. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 08:30:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD3@TEGNTSERVER> > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > Dude, one word: TANG! I dittoed a Davis rant the other day, today I gotta nix one. Sellam, let me second your motion with- Teflon! -doug q From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Fri Jun 9 08:41:12 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com>; from ernestls@home.com on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700 References: <000001bfd1c0$1667f160$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <20000609084112.A948@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - What is the address of your ftp site? john On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700, Ernest wrote: > > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > > Wordstar Ver. 3 > Spellstar > Correctstar > Mailmerge > The Speller > Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) > Polyplot > Statistix Ver. 2.0 > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) > 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) > 1988 Subscriber's disk > Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) > Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) > Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 > Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) > Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) > 100/150 System Demo > 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) > 150 Computer Tutor > 150 MS Basic > 150 Application Master > 150 MS Pascal > 150 System Work disk > 150 Application Work disk > 100 series MS Fortran > > These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my > FTP site soon. > > Ernest > > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 08:41:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD4@TEGNTSERVER> > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. I don't personally equate NASA with the space program. Yes, NASA runs the only real space program we have. But while R. D. Davis seems to decry them both, and many others are jumping in to defend both, let me offer an alternative view. For the most part, I have always supported manned space flight. And once upon a time working at NASA was my dream. But over the years, and particularly in the way that they acquired and then deliberately destroyed the Delta Clipper project and prototype (yes I have read the NASA reports in full and I still conclude the engineer who failed to check the landing strut because the instructions he got did not specify to do so most likely did so deliberately and on directions from higher-ups), I have come to see NASA as a bloated bureaucracy that would be best put to sleep. But I would still replace NASA with something that would carry on manned spaceflight. As for individuals, so also for society, that [a] mans reach should exceed his grasp. respectfully submitted, doug quebbeman From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 9 08:48:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <200006090309.e5939X513907@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000609083417.0193fe30@pc> At 01:16 AM 6/9/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space >age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the >space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets >everywhere. :-) :-) :-) I knew Tang would be mentioned early in this thread. I may have been born in 1963, but by what stretch is Tang considered an invention, never mind a significant one? I'd find it hard to believe that Kool Aid is more recent than Tang, never mind no doubt dozens of other flavored powders. So Tang had the sugar built-in? They couldn't have been the first to try that. Tang has some sort of extra vitamins in it? That's a big invention? (As an aside, these "freeze-dried ice cream" globs they sell at NASA are horrid. Grandma and Grandpa brought some back for the kids, and even they wouldn't touch them. Tang? Tang? How come no one is talking about the awful freeze-dried ice cream?) Velcro was invented by a fellow in Japan, as I recall - "velvet closure" and burdock seeds were the name and the inspiration. As for integrated circuits, etc. no doubt space funding might've paid for the R&D and motivation for companies to improve and shrink their products, but what - they didn't think there would be a giant worldwide market for smaller and cheaper radios, lower battery consumption, better transistors, etc? They wouldn't have done it on their own, eventually, or perhaps even at the same speed, as quickly as they could figure it out? - John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Jun 9 09:01:55 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <20000609140155.14161.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > > > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > > > Dude, one word: TANG! > > I dittoed a Davis rant the other day, today I gotta nix one. > > Sellam, let me second your motion with- Teflon! I wasn't going to chime in, but now that we are benignly listing 1960s technology brought to the fore by the space race, WD-40. The contractor who was producing it for NASA discovered its potential when employees were taking the product for use at home. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Jun 9 10:14:00 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: OT: Re: In defense of NASA In-Reply-To: <200006090535.AAA01605@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: R. D. et al, (* Disclaimer: I'm full time on a NASA project, the IMAGE mission, though my direct employer is Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, Texas, who does a lot of commercial space work as well as NASA. My views are mine alone, however, and do not represent company policy nor that of NASA. *) ... so you know which side my bread's buttered on, and by the way if you are a taxpayer, I thank you very much for your support and hope you feel that you get your money's worth out of IMAGE (http://pluto.space.swri.edu/IMAGE/) (you can see data on some of the links referenced there). I've worked hard to make it so. > Has the space program had any positive influence on >spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Yes. Remember the photo of the Earth, taken by the returning Apollo mission? Or Earthrise over the moon? That's a perspective that could never have been achieved without manned spaceflight. (I say manned, because no machine would have been programmed to look in the right direction at the right time, and notice the incredible aesthetic impact of that image, and capture it.) Its value is of course subjective - but there's a generation grown now that *knows*, because they've seen it, that Earth is just a big blue marble and not the entire universe. For better or worse, it's a finite planet. Is the ozone hole a big deal? Maybe, maybe not; but we would never have known about it - because we would never have noticed it - without the *global* data that could only be provided by satellite observations. What about global warming? We might have picked that up in 10 or 15 years from temperature measurements at land stations, or maybe not. In any case, it would have taken more years for global climate modelers to convince everyone else that the land data they had, plus limited sea-surface measurements from ships, really did amount to a significant change. Global sea-surface temperature measurements, collected by satellites, provided that insight to us about a quarter of a century earlier than we would otherwise have had it. Same notation for El Nino. Whether we take advantage of the data we have, and do smart things with it, is an open question, but we would not even have the options, in those cases, without spaceflight. There are similar arguments for land-use patterns, deforestation, pollution (airborne and water-borne) plumes, etc etc etc. Not that the data *could* not be collected without spacecraft - but that it would have been a lot harder and more expensive and in most cases *would* not have been done. We know our terrestrial problems better because of space activities. Communications satellites carry WWF, so maybe I shouldn't bring those up, .... oh heck yes I should. Living in North America, I can watch NHK news live broadcasts from Japan (for example). Is that a cultural benefit? You bet. I can see, and hear (and heck, maybe one day even understand) what's being thought and done about problems I don't even have (earthquakes? volcanoes? not in Texas), half a big blue marble away. Cultures I would never know existed are as close as a twist of a knob. Sure, some of that could be done with undersea lines - but not as soon and not as cheaply as with a satellite link. As for the Columbus argument ... I'm always nervous about that one. For me as a born Texan, descended of Germand and English settlers, heck yeah it was great that Isabella hocked her jewelry to pay for that expedition. As a Spaniard, I'd probably be a bit less enthusiastic; I mean looking at Spain now, it didn't do them much good in the long term. As a native American, I'd be pretty bummed about it - why didn't the silly Europeans stay over there and pave Europe? Depends on your perspective. But what I do think Spain bought for Columbus' trip, and was cheap at the price, and what I think NASA has bought for us and was *incredibly* cheap at the price, is potential. We know we *can* build solar power satellites and beam microwave energy to Earth to supply electricity for our classic computers :-) without contributing (as much) to global warming. We know we can put long-term facilities in low Earth orbit for medical reasons or biomedical research or crystallography or whatever. We know we can put people on the Moon and bring them home intact. We know we can go to Mars and colonize it, if we choose to. Those options are expensive, and some of them may not be worth it - it's a choice we have to make. But the fact that we *have* the choice is worth a lot to us as a nation, or as a species. - Mark From rivie at teraglobal.com Fri Jun 9 10:49:05 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Q-bus (was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights) In-Reply-To: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20000609034118.4438.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yeah, well, don't get me started about Qbus timeouts. I designed the Firefox Qbus adapter. It was an evil hideous hack, primarily because of Qbus timeouts. There were actually two Qbus adapters sold by DEC: their internally designed "tape adapter" (the FTAM) and my Qbus adapter (the FQAM). The FTAM supported only the TQK70 tape controller, and that was only because the TQK70 waits about 20 microseconds before timing out a transaction. I have an RQDX3 that was modified to work with the FTAM, but DEC didn't want to deliver that as a product and they certainly didn't want to modify _everything_ to work with the FTAM. The difficulty with the Firefox is twofold: it uses write-back caches and the cache has no invalid state. Since it uses write-back caches, a cache which contains a copy of data newer than that stored in memory intervenes in a transaction to supply the data. This is great, except it's really slow; to get the data out of a cache, the module supplying the data has to do a DMA request on its internal bus to get the data. This wouldn't necessarily be a problem except for the bit about not having an invalid state: once data gets into a cache, it's extraordinarily difficult to get it back out again. The Firefox is built around CVAX CPUs, so the internal bus used on all of the modules is the CVAX pin-bus. When it became time to design the Qbus adapter, the designer thought "Aha! All I have to do is slap a CQBIC (CVAX to Qbus adapter IC) down on the board next to the FBIC (Firefox bus interface chip) and wire them together!" Nope. A really annoying thing about the CQBIC is that it does not have an actual real scatter-gather map; it just has essentially a translation lookaside buffer. This means that it's possible the FTAM has to do the following in response to a QBus DMA read: - Evict whatever's in the FBIC's internal cache. - Fetch the scatter/gather map entry, which is probably in somebody's cache because it was just loaded with a mapping. - Fetch the word that needs to be supplied for the Qbus read, which is probably in somebody's cache because a program just wrote it into the DMA buffer. This can take an extraordinarily long amount of time on a write-back cache bus without an invalid state. Lord help you if you have to wait for someone else's transaction to another cache to finish before you can start yours. Did I forget to mention that the Firefox bus has a fair arbitration scheme to prevent bus hogging? That makes it even longer. I've seen it take 12 microseconds for the FBIC to cough up data! By the time I got involved, they had already tried the obvious hack of modding the FBIC to allow the QBus to have absolute priority in the bus arbitration. That was nice because it helped me out. To tame the Firefox bus, the FQAM had two key items: a complete on-board scatter/gather map and a bogus transaction generator to keep everyone else off the bus while QBus DMA was going on. The bogus transaction generator was started whenever a QBus device requested the bus. It kept the bus busy with short transactions so the FQAM could guarantee that it wouldn't have to wait for someone else's outrageously long transaction to complete before it could start its own transaction. It did, however, mean that nothing else happened in the system while the QBus was granted to a DMA device even if the DMA device wasn't doing anything with the bus. In addition to shutting down the entire bus during DMA, the FQAM itself was slow; I was only ever able to get about 250KB/s through the thing. The heart of the FQAM was a microcoded state machine built from registered PROMs. To compile the microcode, I wrote a bunch of macros for MACRO32 that turned it into my own personal microcode language. It took my poor little MicroVAX 2000 half an hour to assemble my microcode, which wound up being about 512 words. Try to explain the power of a true macro assembler to a Unix person and they just look at you funny. Anyway, AFAIK I'm the only person outside of DEC that ever designed to the Firefox bus and I did two of them: the FQAM and MasPar's front-end interface (MasPar got a really good deal from DEC on Firefoxes, but it didn't take them long to move to using the DECstation 5000 as the front end). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 10:55:20 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. Sounds like a computer to me. > Yes I have some machines that may qualify. Most may qualify as they > are no longer used for revenue (often). However, at their time they were > serious machines built to do serious work for the most part. So the > closest thing I have to a toy is my trs80 (mod1). Serious humbug. They were built as expensive toys to play with. Now then, pay careful attention: that doesn't mean that those treating them as toys are careless with their work, they're just having fun and most likely doing much better quality work as a result of their enjoyment of their work. When work ceases to be fun, that's when the bad mistakes, etc. occur due to boredom and an "I don't give a damn, I just want a paycheck for showing up here each day." attitude sets in, when the fun becomes finding creative ways of avoiding actually doing much of any work, annoying certain annoying cow-prkers, etc., as there must be some sort of motivation for at least showing up at work, where fun is the motivation. > The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 > or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. Why should he not think of that machine tool as a toy, esp. if he enjoys his work and is good at it? Heck, he probably even has a pet name for the machine. No chauvenism intended, just a psychological curiosity: Do I sense that men and women sometimes tend to think of work in the computer field differently, with many women having a dreadfully serious outlook on their work and men treating it more as something that's supposed to be fun and games? Maybe this has something to do with many men growing as boys playing with erector sets, heathkits, building forts, and having soldering irons, hammers, screwdrivers, etc. in their hands while they were still learning to read. Then, after growing up, we still consider such things, whether a little PC, an IBM mainframe, or even a multinational corporation, to be toys to play with. > PCs I have a hard time takething them seriously despite their enormous > processing power. They arent built for the most part like a serviceable > and relaible tool. Well said. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 10:57:50 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) More properly, it was not ARPAnet, but the NSFnet. While the ARPAnet laid all of the groundwork, it did not survive to become the "Internet" today. The NSFnet did survive, especially the switch to commercialization in the early-mid 1990s. > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, > the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of > time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy > on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Why pick on the AOLers (and the rest of the masses that have jumped on the net since 1992)? If anything, they (or rather the commercialization) has been a big benefit. If the NSFnet stayed a non-profit network, unlike today, we would see the following: * Today's network would be a ploddingly slow set of saturated T1s and T3s. T5s would have been out of the question, as would SONET. The NSFnet just couldn't afford an upgrade like those. Competeing backbones just would not be what they are today. * Dialup access would be unavailable to nearly all people, either because POPs were too far away or the extreme price. $19.95/month unlimited access would be a fantasy. * Modem technology would probably be stuck at 33.6 kbps, as there would not be any huge incentive for the race to 56K. The same holds true for router technology. These three points are all pretty important - in fact if just one of the three were true, the net would be a great deal less of a tool. So what's wrong with AOLers and AOL? Not much. Sure some a clueless, but then some of the smartest people in the world use it. AOL doesn't choke the network, as they mostly use their own stuff. Many very interesting web pages full of useful content have now sprung up because John Q. Public can sign up with AOL with any knowledge of supergeeky Unix and modem stuff. There is lots of garbage as well, but the key to not letting it bother you is simply not to view it. > Is > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > disguised as a flaw? No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix security is just not that good. > Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely > that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have > originated without government intervention and become just as popular? In the 1970s, there were other networks that ran around the U.S and Europe, but these were all very closed systems. Some were private ventures, most were academic. They were mostly, however, a mess. Some still exist, but completely out of the public eye. If the NSFnet never existed, most people would not even know what the word "network" means. > The automobile hasn't really improved > much since the 1970s. Whatever. > Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and > it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly > been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged > sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that > can also slice the one who created it. A large portion - probably a majority - of the technologies that we use in our computers was in some major way influenced by military developement. Even though military technology tends to be roughly ten years ahead of the commercial technology at any given time, the effects are felt in time (usually about ten years). Yes, it may seem unethical that Uncle Sam is dumping tons of money into equipment that is basically used to kill people, but that same technology will benefit people in a very large, peaceful way in time. WIlliam Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Jun 9 11:43:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> > > Is > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > disguised as a flaw? > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > security is just not that good. This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security has not improved. First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was that it would provide information sharing between a small number of trusted and trusting sites. However, from my own personal experience, I have never succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the second time. regards, -doug quebbeman From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Jun 9 11:44:32 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Decwriter III's in Kansas City Message-ID: I have two Decwriter III's that were taken out of service in January. They were working when turned off. They are not light weight. I will send them to anyone who wants them for $10 each plus shipping. The $10 is to find a box/pallet and haul them to the shipping office. Anybody can have them for free if they want to pick them up. The other option is I donate them to the computer surplus. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mark_k at iname.com Fri Jun 9 13:14:50 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs Message-ID: Hi, Thanks for the several helpful replies on this topic. On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 Clint Wolff wrote: > I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will > result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. > Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. > Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are > shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. > The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly > short time after opening (couple days IIRC). Ah, I have read about that. IC manufacturers often specify a procedure to use when chips which may have absorbed water are to be used. This involves baking at low temperature for a while. Assuming that (for the purposes of removing absorbed water) one plastic IC package is the same as the next, at which temperature and for how long should this baking be done? The lowest setting on my oven is 70 degrees C. If that is low enough -- I guess it should be as most ICs are specified for operation to 75 C or so -- I may try putting the board in there for 12 or 24 hours, before turning the temperature up to melt the solder. -- Mark From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 11:20:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000609083417.0193fe30@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, John Foust wrote: > As for integrated circuits, etc. no doubt space funding might've > paid for the R&D and motivation for companies to improve and > shrink their products, but what - they didn't think there would > be a giant worldwide market for smaller and cheaper radios, lower > battery consumption, better transistors, etc? They wouldn't have > done it on their own, eventually, or perhaps even at the same speed, > as quickly as they could figure it out? Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted from this was computers. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 12:29:15 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <001901bfd1a9$6e9993a0$0400c0a8@winbook><14656.17744.24747.916237@phaduka.neurotica.com><001501bfd1b5$14866120$0400c0a8@winbook> <14656.26055.814976.217001@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001901bfd238$3cdd4980$0400c0a8@winbook> It wasn't my intention to suggest that it's practically a reality to replace a CRAY with a bunch of PC's, but rather to point out that PC's are what people think of today as a computer. Twenty years ago they'd have thought of a behemoth, but the popular vision of a computer now looks more like your desktop system. What's more, taking the SETI-at-home notion as an example, it is possible to do SOME of those tasks on a bunch of PC's with their Intel processors. Of course, the CRAY may do it closer to real-time, but it seldom can do that either. How far off real-time it is probably doesn't matter as much as one might think once we're decoupled from real time continuous processing. Doing it in realtime (whatever "doing-it" means) often requires computers executing exaflops, which we don't seem to have, ...yet..., though it is achievable by segmenting the data and processing it separately on thousands of machines. There's lots of latency, but with enough machines participating in the process, "it" can, theoretically be accomplished on a continuous basis. I was being facetious in the original comment, but it is, in fact, true that the popular vision of "computer" has changed over the past two decades. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > For a lot of things, maybe...but lots of computational tasks simply > aren't well suited to running on a thousand tiny buzzing Intel processors. > > -Dave McGuire > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Well . . . you're right, but it might read, "300 PC's replace CRAY - film at > > 11." That's in place of the popular Cheers or Frasier reruns . . . > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dave McGuire > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 7:16 PM > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > PC replaces Cray...film at 11. > > > > > > Not quite yet, I'm afraid. The PC isn't the end-all, be-all of > > > computing. > > > > > > -Dave McGuire > > > > > > On June 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Careful, now . . . due to the passage of time and the change of the > > > > "climate" the PDP's, Vaxen, Cray's, etc, that are sitting in basements > > and > > > > garages are the toys now, and the former toys, the PC's, are the "real" > > > > computers. Bizzarre, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: R. D. Davis > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > simulator and a PDP-11/45 front panel with no CPU boards. I'd > > like to > > > > do > > > > > > > sort of a faux PDP-11/45 with this setup by somehow wiring the > > front > > > > panel > > > > > > > up to the PC running Sim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I completely out of my mind, or is there even the remotest > > chance > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > We're all out of our minds on this list ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I think that adding blinking lights, and switches, to any > > > > > computer is a good idea, and, as my PDP-11s don't have lights and > > > > > switches, I think it's time to add them... by creating a separate rack > > > > > panel, of course. Has anyone here added lights and switches to one of > > > > > the PDP-11s of incomplete design? > > > > > > > > > > > It's _possible_. It's probably less work to find a set of 11/45 CPU > > > > > > boards and get them working, but it's still _possible_ to do what > > you > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > The idea of finding a set of PDP-11 boards is a better idea, as then > > the > > > > > front panel could be used with non-toy computer equipment. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > R. D. Davis > > > > > rdd@perqlogic.com > > > > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > > > > > 410-744-4900 > > > > > > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 12:41:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon observed in conjunction with an accident. I certainly hope you're joking! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > from this was computers. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 9 13:51:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Old laptops as cheap terminals In-Reply-To: <20000608233422.605.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- allisonp wrote: >> Don't you need a bidirectional port for the PE3? I have a few of them and >> have never tried them on xtclass boxen for that reason. > >At least the older Xircom adapters can work in nybble-mode with a uni- >directional port. I just didn't think they'd break it with the newer >models. I want a PE3, not PE2 because of power consumption - the PE3 >can be powered off of a parasitic cable (typically from the keyboard I have a few of these PE3 10bt adapters, headed for eBay, but I will let anybody on the list buy one directly for $10 and shipping ($4 in US). Your choice of ONE power source, AC adapter, or serial cheater cord. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Jun 9 13:57:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADD4@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: >But I would still replace NASA with something that would carry >on manned spaceflight. As for individuals, so also for society, >that [a] mans reach should exceed his grasp. NASA should get out of the commercial side of the space business, PERIOD. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 13:19:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Toy: an object for exercise, diversion or amusement. > > Sounds like a computer to me. ;) could be. > Serious humbug. They were built as expensive toys to play with. Now > then, pay careful attention: that doesn't mean that those treating Well, I know people that play hard and work hard and both are the same thing. Me for one. Electronics is hobby, serious study and what I do to pay the bills. I enjoy it. > enjoyment of their work. When work ceases to be fun, that's when the > bad mistakes, etc. occur due to boredom and an "I don't give a damn, I ;) Ah ha! True. > > The counter to that is: the guy running his machine tool with an old PDP-8 > > or Z80 box... Is he using a toy? I think not. > > Why should he not think of that machine tool as a toy, esp. if he > enjoys his work and is good at it? Heck, he probably even has a pet > name for the machine. it is that persons perogative. generally toys are associated with recreation though. Still, an NC mill is a fine toy. > Do I sense that men and women sometimes tend to think of work in the > computer field differently, with many women having a dreadfully Not the women I know. Then again I hang in different circles where a job is more than a means to an end. > with many men growing as boys playing with erector sets, heathkits, > building forts, and having soldering irons, hammers, screwdrivers, > etc. in their hands while they were still learning to read. Then, > after growing up, we still consider such things, whether a little PC, > an IBM mainframe, or even a multinational corporation, to be toys to > play with. With two brothers into all that I got to play and do as a result. However to your last line... I build with wood too as that was my fathers influence. When my toys can impact on others (running a multinational) it's time to play seriously and hard. To borrow a line success is _fun_, for lack of a better word. I find it disappointing there are not more women in high Tech fields. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 13:27:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > security is just not that good. > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > has not improved. But it has. The content however has become dangerous to the end users. With all the viruses the internet as a backbone has not burped, whole groups of end nodes and local networks have suffered however due to poor security on their part. In the end don't blame the highway for the dead cow on the median. > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > second time. A huge amount of stuff happend between now and then. if it didn't we'd still depend on UUCP batches running at 3am over modems to route mail. I say that as one that used internet back when it took overnight to get mail from MA to CA. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jun 9 16:51:26 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: Fixin' der Tandy 2 floppydrivenspiegelthingengruppebochs In-Reply-To: <200006090315.UAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000609175126.00c26e00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: >Good news und bat news. > >I got a nice Tandy 200 package today, unit, power supplies, manuals and even >some Club 100 disks in the original hard case. Very nice and the machine, >after a little of fiddling and a cold start, is running well. That's the good >news. Sehr Gute News. ;-) >The bad news, alas, is the 3.5" RS-232 floppy that came with it. (Yes, >RS-232 floppy drive; hopefully someone has seen one of these.) It will >not power up on either the power supply (original power supply, btw, which >works with the M200 just fine), or new batteries. All it does is flash its >low battery light briefly, spin for about a second, and shut off. I took >a look at the board but couldn't see anything physically shot. How do you know it's turning off? The blinkenlight is to let you know of 1) low battery, and 2) drive activity. It's normal for the blinkenlight to turn off after a successful powerup, so it sounds like it's working correctly. Impotent question #1: Did you receive the special hookemupper cable that came with the drive? This is *super* important, as a standard RS232 will not work - the cable has internal electronics (read: transistors & stuff) to change the voltage levels to/from the drive. Do not wire up a straight cable between any computer & the drive - you will fry the electronics in the drive! Impotent question #2: Is it a Portable disk drive (PDD), or a Portable disk drive 2 (PDD2)? Big difference, in storage space (100K vs. 200K) and startup procedures. Impotent question #3: Did you get a boot disk with the drive? If so, IIRC this is how you get the poor excuse for a DOS into the laptop with a PDD2 (all I've ever owned.): Hook up the cable between computer & floppy drive. Insert the boot floppy into the drive, but do not turn it on yet. Turn on the computer. Go into basic and issue this command: RUN "COM:98N1DNN" ^ If the above command doesn't work, change that D to an E and try again. Turn on the floppy drive. That should start the software download from the boot floppy to the computer. If you don't have a PDD2, read the instructions if you got them, if not, go to http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html. There's a *ton* of info for the Model 100/102/200 series there, and the owner of Club 100, Rick Hanson, has got to be one of the nicest people on the planet. There is also a listserver dedicated to the Model 100/102/200 machines, and to subscribe, send a blank email to: m100-subscribe@list.30below.com and you will receive a confirmation message. Reply to that confirmation message, and you're subscribed! There's actually been a fair amount of activity on there lately, and with over 150 subscribers to the list, there's one heckuva lotsa brains there to pick! (I administer the list, that's why it's a ) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 9 17:09:44 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:35 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > > > Absolutely. If you only take a narrow view of life, the internet could > > look like a tremendous waste of money and time. > > Well, the ARPANET did have a big flaw in it didn't it, I mean, they > spent all that money, and look what still happened: the invasion of > the AOLers (no offense to any AOL users here, I'm talking about the > onslaught that nearly crippled Usenet several years ago that was like > an infinite influx of first semester students who'd just gotten their > usernames and passwords in CS101). ;-) > > In all seriousness, the internet, like many other things, is a double > edged sword. It allows us to communicate more easily, and is > extremely useful; it's a wonderful research tool. On the other hand, > the Internet is a great wasy for some people to wasts vast sums of > time, and, look at how easy it makes things for the government to spy > on vast numbers of citizens due to the way it's been set up. Is > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > disguised as a flaw? Had the ARPANET never existed, isn't it likely Possibly, but the same criticism can be made of radio, telephone, fax, and most other modes of electronic communication. It is all monitored. > that some other, perhaps more secure, form of communication may have > originated without government intervention and become just as popular? > > > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. > > Yes, I remember as a child, there was that new orange powdered space > age drink mix called Tang, which was marketed as a spinoff of the > space program, the drink of the astronauts, available in supermarkets > everywhere. :-) :-) :-) > > > If you take the previous poster's comments back several hundred > > years, the Spanish could have said, "Why should the Queen spend > > our money on that Columbus guy? He's just some obnoxious > > "explorer" who only wants to satisfy his curiosity. What a waste! > > We have everything we need, right here." > > Hmmm... interesting to think about. > > > I've been following the space program for as long as I can > > remember, and it always irritates me when someone says that the > > only reason we're doing it is to make some sci-fi geeks happy. > > You may be surprised that I agree with you: there are other reasons > besides that. For example, the space program also exists so that > large corporations can make billions of dollars in profits and use > some of those profits to grant favors to the politicians who helped > them make the profits extorted from taxpayers. > > More seriously, I know that there will come a day when the earth may > become uninhabitable, and space exploration may be our only key to the > survival of creatures living on earth. However, I seriously doubt > that everyone would be able to leave, and imagine that only a > relatively small number of carefully selected people and other > creatures would get to leave and possibly survive, leaving the May we presume boarding 'two by two'? > majority of the earth's inhabitants here to perish. What's the point > in that? > > However, at the rate things are going, we'll probably cause our own > extinction because of overpopulation and the resulting damage to the > environment, long before we can find another planet to destroy. > > > Most of the people in the space industry, I would venture to guess, > > are probably not sci-fi nuts but damn good engineers and scientists > > Unquestionably true, and I have a lot of respect for the skills and > abilities of such engineers and scientists; however, could not their > abilities have been put to better use for society? > > > who are gaining a lot of valuable research from NASA and the like. > > Yes, but I wonder how much of this is actually necessary, and if it > really does do much to improve the quality of people's lives. After > all, the technology used in building comfortable houses to live in has > been stable for many years. The automobile hasn't really improved > much since the 1970s. The field of medicine would probably have done > just as well, and perhaps better, if the money was spent on it, and, > who knows, those horrid HMOs may never have even come to exist. Have > the foods we eat improved as a result of the space program? Have > people become kinder and more civil to one another as a result of the > space program? Has the space program had any positive influence on > spirituality and humanity's relationship with Nature? Blame it on the Soviets and the rich kid (with the rich father) from Boston ;-P - don > Yes, I can see how some of the technolgy has benefitted the U.S. and > it's allies throughout the free world militarily, and has possibly > been beneficial in that respect, but, again, perhaps a double edged > sword, not always used for peaceful, or defensive means, a sword that > can also slice the one who created it. Perhaps it's been useful for > the strategic defense initiative, but, that's been delayed and our > most trustworthy and esteemed (<-sarcasm intended) president has > crawled on his hands and knees to Russia asking for their permission > for us to implement it! Perhaps he's so used to crawling on his hands > and knees submitting to Hillary that he just can't help this, but > that's no excuse, is it? > > I look foward to your answers, and if I'm wrong or am overlooking > something, I'd very much like to know about it. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jun 9 17:45:30 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Ahoi Dick, > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > from this was computers. > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > observed in conjunction with an accident. Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep around. > I certainly hope you're joking! He is :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:07:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <004701bfd199$4f4e5b80$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 8, 0 04:31:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/3767c19b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:09:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 8, 0 06:45:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/8ae51266/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:15:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Jun 8, 0 04:21:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/24df7746/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:23:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <14656.25965.524587.197572@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 8, 0 11:33:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1303 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/a374be8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:29:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Jun 9, 0 09:09:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/ad9efd3e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 9 17:34:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609140155.14161.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 9, 0 07:01:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000609/8991324d/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 18:12:06 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> References: <004b01bfd239$f4ee73e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609160612.0243a4d0@208.226.86.10> At 12:45 AM 6/10/00 +0200, Hans wrote: >Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. >None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, >it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. If you want to be blunt, the absolute best "engine" for developing new technologies is a good old fashioned war. One school of thought would argue that the "space race" was simply the cover story for developing better missile technology and other armaments. However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a space program (regardless of the motivations for pursuing space). By and large "mainstream" entities (ie business, banking, etc) do not "develop" technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of computers, fax machines (which were in vented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't change their ways. --Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 9 18:10:56 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > even a good penetrating oil. It was actually originally a repeller, mostly made of Stoddard solvent. The original idea was to use WD-40 to clean out surfaces of machining oils, water, general crud, etc. so a lubricant can be introduced to fresh metal. In fact, one of the things it is good for is getting rid of lubrication! Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" both jobs. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From red at bears.org Fri Jun 9 18:18:53 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" > both jobs. It's slippery, right? -gurgle-. IME the only thing WD40 is useful for, is, as you've said, flushing gunk out of a mechanical device, which it does without hesitation or prejudice. ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 9 18:19:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I personnally think you should need a license (granted based on a test on > cluefulness) to buy WD-40 :-)... > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > even a good penetrating oil. Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). From foo at siconic.com Fri Jun 9 17:32:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > > from this was computers. > > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > > observed in conjunction with an accident. > > Seriously, I doubt that any usefull development has been done by accident. > None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, > it's plain old hard work to do it - and this will have happened anyway. > Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge > about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have > been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, > we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep > around. > > > I certainly hope you're joking! > > He is :) No, I'm not. As usual, I have no idea what Dick was blathering about. But, the point is that WWII and the Space Race brought about unprecedented advancements in many fields of technology, not the least of which was computing technology. This is moronically obvious and I am not making any sort of astute observation here. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 18:50:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: WD-40 uses In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609164948.00bf4d90@208.226.86.10> At 11:19 PM 6/9/00 +0000, Eric wrote: >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). Its an excellent gun preservative. Used on the metal parts it repels moisture and oils preventing oxidation of the metals. --Chuck From transit at lerctr.org Fri Jun 9 19:12:34 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: WD-40 (was: Re: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't know why people think it's a lubricant, but it isn't. It's not > > even a good penetrating oil. > > It was actually originally a repeller, mostly made of Stoddard solvent. > The original idea was to use WD-40 to clean out surfaces of machining > oils, water, general crud, etc. so a lubricant can be introduced to fresh > metal. In fact, one of the things it is good for is getting rid of > lubrication! > > Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" > both jobs. And don't forget the urban legends crowd, who insist that WD-40 can treat arthritis (!) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 20:12:18 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> Great brag today. Two ROM 03 Apple IIgses with 1MB RAM, keyboards, two sets of two each of 5.25" and 3.5" UniDisks and a nice composite monitor. But that's not the interesting part. The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But I shan't complain too much :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 20:13:52 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Tandy 2 drive oops Message-ID: <200006100113.SAA07402@oa.ptloma.edu> Roger, I think you sent me an answer about the Tandy 2 floppy drive, but in my haste I deleted it by accident. Could you resend it? I'm terribly sorry about that. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 20:15:01 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <39418FAA.25757.1589DAE@localhost> Message-ID: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Without getting into detail, which would require I refresh my memory about a number of these examples, I'd point out that EPOXY is one that came about by accident, although there are many others. I'd be surprised to find that someone set out to build a semiconductor, knowing that the physical chemistry of the substances involved, and that people, though they knew in advance that such things could be done, simply hadn't bothered for one reason or another. Likewise, I recently saw a PBS program that went into some detail about the invention of RADAR. That certainly wasn't planned out in advance. Nobel (according to another PBS program) didn't set about to invent Nitrogycerin, nor, knowing about nitrogycerine, did he set out to invent nitrocellulose, And, of course, there's the Post-It. That certainly was an accident, resulting from a spill, according to the inventor, who was interviewed on an NPR program. I'd be really surprised to learn that someone sat down one day saying, "I'm going to invent CMOS devices now!" I'd be really pleased, in fact, to know even one significant invention that was produced by a typical over-organized and micro-managed NASA engineering team of the sort I remember from back in the Apollo days. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > Ahoi Dick, > > > > Yeah, things like the Space Race and WWII did nothing for rapid > > > technological evolution and development, the least of which benefitted > > > from this was computers. > > So many of these major discoveries were made purely by accident. Accidents > > which might not have happened if Engineers and Scientists hadn't had the > > freedom, and the funding, to take time with this or that strange phenomenon > > observed in conjunction with an accident. > > Seriously, I doubt that any useful development was done by accident. > None of these technologies have been invented because of the space race, > it's plain old hard work to do it - and this would have happened anyway. It's true that it requires great deal of effort to turn any invention into something useful. By definition, however, it's really difficult to find even one case wherein someone set about to invent new technology knowing that he could do it. The vast sums of money have to be justfied by the promise of some well defined result. Invention is, by definition, not well defined in advance of its occurrence. > Of course the space exploration did bring a vast amount of new knowledge > about nature and the universe, but no new technology that wouldn't have > been developed at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro space exploration, > we just should be smart enough to see marketing schemes when they creep > around. > Fuel cell technology, not of tremendous interest in many places outside the space-flight realm, certainly was an outgrowth of the space effort that would still be undeveloped but for the need for it presented by space exploration and satellite communication. However, if there had been no space exploration effort afoot, low-power semiconductor technology would probably not yet have evolved. My own experience in the electronics engineering field certainly has shown me more examples of a technology developed elsewhere and a potential entrepeneur looking at it with the question, "How can I captialize on this to make some money?" It's not until someone finds an answer to this question that most of us even learn of a new technology. Exceptions abound, of course, over the course of the space exploration effort, where the government, anxious to justify its vast expenditures, has publicized newly developed technology intended for application in the military or in space, but for which undeveloped potential in the commercial world exists. The military is somewhat more judicious about what it publicizes, but the same principles apply. > > > I certainly hope you're joking! > > He is :) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From ernestls at home.com Fri Jun 9 20:53:20 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: New HP150 software finds. In-Reply-To: <20000609084112.A948@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <000001bfd27e$a8658140$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> It isn't actually officially open yet but I'm hoping to have it all ready by next weekend. I'm trying to tie it into a web page that I'm making. I'll post it here as soon as it's open, so look for a notification by next weekend. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Ott Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 6:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New HP150 software finds. Hello - What is the address of your ftp site? john On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:09:11PM -0700, Ernest wrote: > > I picked a big stack of HP150 single sided software disks today, most of > which I didn't have. > > Wordstar Ver. 3 > Spellstar > Correctstar > Mailmerge > The Speller > Interex CSL/150 (no idea what this is?) > Polyplot > Statistix Ver. 2.0 > Sidewinder Ver. 2.1 (no idea what this is?) > 1987 Portable Paper Subscriber's disk (for 100/110 maybe?) > 1988 Subscriber's disk > Crosstalk (is this for 100 to 150 communication?) > Norton Utilities Ver. 4.0 (for portables and 150) > Turbo Pascal Ver. 2.0 > Read HP150 (ss/ds) for IBM PC (this could be interesting) > Compuserve HP Forum Programs (?) > 100/150 System Demo > 150 System Master (DOS 2.01) > 150 Computer Tutor > 150 MS Basic > 150 Application Master > 150 MS Pascal > 150 System Work disk > 150 Application Work disk > 100 series MS Fortran > > These all look to be original disks. Copies of these will be going onto my > FTP site soon. > > Ernest > > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 9 21:06:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 09, 2000 06:12:18 PM Message-ID: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Great brag today. Two ROM 03 Apple IIgses with 1MB RAM, keyboards, two > sets of two each of 5.25" and 3.5" UniDisks and a nice composite monitor. But > that's not the interesting part. > > The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System > 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file > server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon > Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) > > How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building > the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but > obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT > come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network > boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. I *think* it's part of the basic Apple //GS 'System 6' software. Geez, been so long since I've messed with mine that I can't even remember what the OS is called for sure. Anyway last I heard you could still get the disk images for the last OS release of an Apple FTP server, the trick is finding out where. > By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB > mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But > I shan't complain too much :-) Ouch, you should have shopped around! Of course I'm the fool who has been threatening to buy a spare brand new Apple Extended Keyboard II, and a couple spare ADB II Mice. They work great on my G4 with a USB-to-ADB converter, and since ADB is gone, it might be a good idea to pick up a couple new spares while I still can. Zane From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 21:28:29 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <002901bfd283$911b56e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's probably exactly the way you suggest, Tony, but I'd say you ay be overlooking the most obvious way to do this sort of thing, i.e. use volatile programmable logic. I doubt any patent will be violated if you use an old schematic as the model for an implementation that couldn't have existed in the timeframe within which a patent might have been valid. A patent applies to the implementation of the items that are claimed as original or innovative. It will be your implementation that is innovative if you do it this way. Another point worth considering is the relative risk of being sued. If you build a single copy of your implementation, even if it is on a standard FPGA board sold for many purposes, it is a unique effort, yielding a unique product, no longer really the same board built by the manufacturer, yet it will be able to execute, and quite precisely if your implementation is good, the instructions the original one did. However, if there were any money in this implementation, someone would be building it and you'd have THEM to worry about, not the original maker. If one's dreaming of making a bundle supplying an old war-horse that died years back, even at a 50-fold preformance increase, it's not likely to be worth the filing fees. If you don't like how it works, you can fiddle with it to your heart's delight, without any resoldering or cut and paste. Now, there is, actually a risk you might not be able to preserve pinouts, so what I'd recommend is to build a board with your FPGA (one is normally better than two or more, since many pins of I/O are lost if you try to use small devices where a larger one is indicated) surrounded with dual row pin-fields over which you can interconnect the signal paths with longer jumpers if need be in subsequent revisions or other architectures. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > I haven't had -that- particular fantasy, but another one... > > > > ... creating copies of certain "classic" machines. If you were able to buy, > > say, an original Nova in a box that for all the detail you wanted was the > > same as the original, and inside had the same chips on the same size PC board, > > would that be cool? Sure, you're have to use materials you could get today > > to do it, but accurately done, it might be interesting. > > Yes, I've thought about this too.... > > Technically, it's not that hard, if you allow 'minor' changes in the > chips -- using 74HCT chips in place of plain 74xx (and making other > necessary changes), for example. Or using larger, more modern SRAM chips > to replace ones that are hard to find and expensive now. > > Legally there are at least 2 problems. Firstly, the design is probably > still covered by some form of copyright (IANAL). Most schematics of these > old computers have notices on them preventing them from being used to > make copies of the machine. My guess is that some manufacturers might > well give the permision, though. > > The second problem is that these old machines may well not meet modern > standard for RFI emissions, etc. Which (at least in the UK) matters even > if you're only making a 1-off :-( > > > > > > I'm -not- saying building up clones of certain rare old computers and trying > > to pass them off as originals, but rather, trying to make clones that are > > undistinguishable from the original. > > I would want to make some change that made it impossible to pass it off > as the original. Perhaps putting the text 'Copy created by ' > in an inside layer of the PCB, so it could be seen if the board were held > up to the light, but couldn't be removed without destroying the board. I > have no interest in making fakes, I have every interest in playing with > machines that I otherwise wouldn't be able to see. > > -tony > From richard at idcomm.com Fri Jun 9 21:48:56 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <003301bfd286$6d211b00$0400c0a8@winbook> You'll have to sell me on this one, Tony. blinking the lights in sync with a simulator via EPP is dirt-simple and very fast. I2C requires either hardware or time-consuming software to generate, and generating and debugging the software will consume a lot of time too. Further, it requires lots of specialized ( I haven't got any of those parts here . . .) hardware at the receiving end, and I have lots of parts . . . The EPP is infinitely extensible, i.e. it's possible, though unrealistic, to build a system with 64K 64K-bit ports all controlled by a single PC from its parallel port. The thing thats beautiful about that is that it's possible to build the system as wide, or deep, as you like without using any different hardware at the PC end. More below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > There are plug-in boards that provide an extra SPP/EPP/ECP port, which is > > safer than simply using the motherboard-resident one. That would be less > > trouble if you were to break it than would be the one on the motherboard. > > > > The EPP port is more desirable, IMHO, simply because it isolates your > > "hobby-project" from the inards of the computer. It also provides a handy > > connector, and a simple protocol by which to provide yourself with up to 256 > > I/O ports in either direction, without having to open the box except to plug > > The other possibility (which is _very_ easy, and fast enough for > human-readable lamps and switches) is to bit-bang I2C over a couple of > lines of the printer port (you need 1 input (data in) and 2 outputs (data > out and clock out) -- you don't need the clock input for most common > devices). Then hang a few PCF8584 and PCF8584A chips off it (each is a > single 8 bit I/O port, and you can have 8 of _each_ on a single I2C bus). > > > > in the parallel port card. If one happened to come with a DLL with which > > you can write WINDOWS code for your port, so much the better! > > Well, if you _must_ use that so-called OS, I suppose so... Personally, > I'd rather have a linux system, a copy of gcc and a bit-level definition > of the registers on the card.... > You don't need a bit-level definition beyond the standard, since all EPP ports are defined/characterized in IEEE standard 1284. There are dozens of sites that provide details and code examples on the web. > > > > One rather important aspect, of course, is that the printer port can really > > drive the properly terminated cable, while a "normal" MOS LSI for parallel > > That is, alas, not always the case. A lot of printer ports have pretty > poor drive characteristics. Maybe some modern ones (particularly > high-speed/EPP/etc ones) are better. > I think you may be misinformed, here, Tony. The original port (LSTTL) was CERTAINLY able to drive a cable of up to 20' length, though it wasn't recommended. The extremely popular 82C11 that occupies about two thirds of the pre-IEEE-STD-1284 port boards I have lying about, drives harder than the original TTL version after which it is patterned. The TTL used by the original PC was probably the least hefty driver set ever used on the PC printer port. > > > I/O, e.g. 8255, 6821, etc, can't. > > Yes, but for this application (driving an 11/45 panel) you need to drive > normal TTL loads not that fast. > I'm not familiar with the 11/45 FP. Does it have receivers that can get by with the less-than half milliamp source and little more than a single milliamp sink current of these devices ( one port may drive 2 mA . . . ??) I don't know how well the 6821 or 8255 like driving cables. I've never tried it because they always were buffered in applications I've studied. In fact, I've found the buffers normally work more conveniently than the LSI's they serve, so I normally do things with TTL/CMOS logic and leave out the fancy LSI's unless there's a specific requirement (in writing) for them. > > -tony > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 9 22:53:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the hard drive? Joe From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 21:57:23 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > A totally mad project that somewhere on the to-be-hacked pile is to > modify the 8085 console system on an 11/44. Hang blickenlights and > switches off that processor (which would mean hardware mods to the MFM > card, but I have the prints...) and modify the console firmware to look > at them, and to edit PDP11 memory, etc, from them. And to still use the > serial port as the normal console terminal port. That sounds like great fun; a PDP-11/44 to PDP-11/44t conversion project! Does anyone know of any sources for some colorful, and well-made, switches that would look like they belong on an older computer's front panel? For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or vice versa? Front panel analog meters for monitoring the PSU voltage levels would be useful as well. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jun 9 22:13:57 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Jun 9, 0 07:06:36 pm" Message-ID: <200006100313.UAA10028@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I *think* it's part of the basic Apple //GS 'System 6' software. Geez, been ::so long since I've messed with mine that I can't even remember what the OS ::is called for sure. Anyway last I heard you could still get the disk images ::for the last OS release of an Apple FTP server, the trick is finding out ::where. Yeah, I heard a rumour that Apple offered GS/OS there, but I don't have any way of transferring the software (unless an Apple II meister out there would like to explain how ...) Can today's Macs format ProDOS volumes still? If not, does anyone have GS/OS on disk, or willing to make copies? I would gladly reimburse any inconvenience or we could come to an equitable understanding ... :-) By the way, about upgrading the SE/30. I want to upgrade the thing to System 7.x but NOT if it will mean I can no longer run AppleShare File Server. Can I download a System 7 friendly ASFS anywhere? This poor thing doesn't even have MultiFinder. I do know that Apple has System 7 for download, and I should hope a 68K version of ASFS ... ? ::Ouch, you should have shopped around! Of course I'm the fool who has been ::threatening to buy a spare brand new Apple Extended Keyboard II, and a ::couple spare ADB II Mice. They work great on my G4 with a USB-to-ADB ::converter, and since ADB is gone, it might be a good idea to pick up a ::couple new spares while I still can. That was why I got stuck on the price. CompUkeSA has plenty of USB stuff but only one ADB model of mouse in the whole freaking store. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 9 19:59:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA:was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <004c01bfd281$cd47c470$7764c0d0@ajp166> >> Somehow, probably with the help of marketing people, WD-40 could "do" >> both jobs. It does contain some very light oil. Not the best lube though, then again mousemilk isn't either and I have both for those times when... WD40, like LPS-5, 3in1, LMO (light machine oil) and various lubricants on my shelf are like the assortment of hammers I have. Some are brass dead blows, plastic, wood, claw and ballpeen all for specific uses. When used for the right purpose the right to is a great help. WD40 is like screwdrivers as they get used for hammers, prybars and whatnot all to the great consternation of the machinest sorts that know and appreciate tools. Allison From rdd at smart.net Fri Jun 9 22:27:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > hard drive? Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, didn't you? Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result in filesystem damage. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jun 9 22:48:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000609204719.0323c8e0@208.226.86.10> >For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone >have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or >vice versa? Actually in my PDP-8/x the use of white LEDs seems like it will be a win. --Chuck From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jun 9 23:25:57 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe Rigdon wrote: > > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > > hard drive? R.D. Davis replied: > Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, > didn't you? A familiar refrain ;>) > Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if > the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and > if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result > in filesystem damage. Granted, this is correct on both counts: the ps needs tested before it's applied to the system, and the heads probably need to be parked before the system is moved. If I understand Mr. Davis correctly, he's suggesting that the ps be tested and possibly repaired or replaced, then the system should be booted and the heads parked, all before taking the system home. Try doing this in a surplus store. Hmm, and what happens if the ps is okay but the system won't come up? Still can't move it until you park those heads . . . Personally, I just throw caution to the winds, handle the item as carefully as possible (it's probably been kicked around for years) and take it home so I can try to figure out what it is that I'm now the Proud Owner of ;>) Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 00:06:39 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Try doing this in a surplus store. Hmm, and what happens if the ps is okay > but the system won't come up? Still can't move it until you park those heads > . . . > > Personally, I just throw caution to the winds, handle the item as carefully > as possible (it's probably been kicked around for years) and take it home so > I can try to figure out what it is that I'm now the Proud Owner of ;>) Yes, if any damage was done to J.R.'s system, it quite possibly occured as a result of those who handled the system, perhaps carelessly, before he got it. Of course, carrying tools and a VOM to surplus store, thrift shop, hamfest (radio rally), etc. could be rather useful. The problem is that the person rescuing the equipment will most likely run into equipment from time to time with disk heads that she or he won't know how to park, and won't have the time to learn how to park them, if the equipment is to be saved. A bit of a catch-22. That said... Has anyone considered, or written, a head-parking FAQ for classic computers, listing drives that need to have their heads parked, and ways of doing this for various types of systems? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rivie at teraglobal.com Sat Jun 10 00:24:42 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > > By the way, total cost was $0.00 ;-) (Well, I did have to buy an ADB > > mouse for the Mac, which was missing too. $40?! Highway robbery. But > > I shan't complain too much :-) > >Ouch, you should have shopped around! Yeah, no kidding. The local university here has been disposing of old Mac stuff like you wouldn't believe. I came across a pile of LCIIs at the surplus store for $5 each and every one of them has enough RAM to run NetBSD as well as an Ethernet card. They also had a big box of ADB keyboards and mice for $5 each. Needless to say, I spent more money than I intended to (2 ea keyboard and mouse, an LCII with 10M RAM, and an LCIII ($15) with 20M RAM). While there are Apple knowledgeable folks paying attention, I also recently picked up a PowerBook 145. It's a really, really nice machine even though it doesn't have much RAM (4MB) or hard disk (40MB). I'm running 7.0.1 on it (7.5.3 used too much of both the RAM and the hard disk) and have been pleasantly surprised to find lots of software that runs on 7.0.1 (vi and lynx alone mean I can be productive doing documentation for some of my projects. Minix runs great, too), but I'd really like to stick a larger hard disk in the beast. The difficulty is that it uses a whacky 30 pin connector. Any hope of my finding a larger hard disk that'll work? I've not been an Apple person until recently so I don't know what was available for these machines. I have found a company that sells NiMH batteries for the beast, which will really help. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From mrdos at swbell.net Sat Jun 10 00:31:19 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Availible Message-ID: <001101bfd29d$1c68ec80$0a723ed8@compaq> There is an IBM System/38 with Tape Drive and 4 Disk Drives available in San Francisco California. If you are interested contact Rbatist@aol.com . If you get it, tell me all about it 'cause I REALLY wanted this one, but there isn't enough time to arrange for shipping. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000610/0c1d2096/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 00:33:45 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Without getting into detail, which would require I refresh my memory about a > number of these examples, I'd point out that EPOXY is one that came about by > accident, although there are many others. I'd be surprised to find that > someone set out to build a semiconductor, knowing that the physical > chemistry of the substances involved, and that people, though they knew in > advance that such things could be done, simply hadn't bothered for one > reason or another. Likewise, I recently saw a PBS program that went into > some detail about the invention of RADAR. That certainly wasn't planned out > in advance. Nobel (according to another PBS program) didn't set about to > invent Nitrogycerin, nor, knowing about nitrogycerine, did he set out to > invent nitrocellulose, And, of course, there's the Post-It. That certainly > was an accident, resulting from a spill, according to the inventor, who was > interviewed on an NPR program. And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. - don ________O/_______ O\ From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 00:50:39 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: > I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive > are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? > Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the > hard drive? Joe, I will send you a copy of Command.COM for the TI Professional Computer. Be advised, however, that those machines gag on off-the-shelf DOS versions. TI's was a bit off the beaten path. - don From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 01:06:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: References: <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> <200006100206.TAA00499@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >While there are Apple knowledgeable folks paying attention, I also >recently picked up a PowerBook 145. It's a really, really nice machine >even though it doesn't have much RAM (4MB) or hard disk (40MB). I'm >running 7.0.1 on it (7.5.3 used too much of both the RAM and the >hard disk) and have been pleasantly surprised to find lots of software >that runs on 7.0.1 (vi and lynx alone mean I can be productive doing >documentation for some of my projects. Minix runs great, too), but I'd >really like to stick a larger hard disk in the beast. The difficulty >is that it uses a whacky 30 pin connector. Any hope of my finding a >larger hard disk that'll work? I've not been an Apple person until >recently so I don't know what was available for these machines. I have >found a company that sells NiMH batteries for the beast, which will >really help. > >Roger Ivie You might want to check out the following site. http://www.powerbookguy.com/ I've not done business with him, but he's been around for several years. He carries various old systems and bits. Personally I'd upgrade to System 7.1, but not higher. If you can find a copy of MS Word 5.1 it should give you a good Word Processor. Another site to check out would be http://lowendmac.com/index.shtml I love old Mac's, they're user friendly :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 00:11:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, > didn't you? Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if It's a damn PC! > the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and > if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result > in filesystem damage. Gee, really? Lighten up, R.D. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 00:14:44 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > carelessly, before he got it. Of course, carrying tools and a VOM to > surplus store, thrift shop, hamfest (radio rally), etc. could be > rather useful. The problem is that the person rescuing the equipment Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. > That said... Has anyone considered, or written, a head-parking FAQ for > classic computers, listing drives that need to have their heads > parked, and ways of doing this for various types of systems? No, we're waiting for you to write it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Jun 10 01:16:49 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > - don Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich carbon? carlos. From ernestls at home.com Sat Jun 10 01:40:13 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006100112.SAA08368@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000201bfd2a6$bba637e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- The interesting part is the Mac SE/30 that came with them. It runs System 6 (cough) and AppleShare File Server. It looks like this was the file server for the IIgs systems, since the disk is full of AppleWorks, Oregon Trail and ProDOS boot images. :-) Very nice catch. You know, you can hook that SE/30 into an NT network, onto which you can download files from the net, and copy to your IIgs' via the AppleTalk network. The joys of networking still make me giddy sometimes. NT has an AppleTalk protocol option that works very well. If you don't have an NT network at home, take it to work and see if you're NT admin will help you out. If he's anything like me, he would enjoy the challenge but I wouldn't mention it to the company heads. There's usually some sort of beer payments involved so go prepared, and not with Coors or Miller (barf!) How do I get the IIgses to speak AppleTalk? I have the parts for building the network, and I know IIgs systems can do it (I've seen it), but obviously I need some additional software which unfortunately did NOT come with the package. This might be stretching it, but can they network boot? The IIgs Control Panel (CTRL-OPTION-RESET) yielded nothing too helpful. You're right, you do need some additional software, and information on how to do it. Fortunately, there are more knowledgeable people than me to get directions from on comp.sys.apple2. Rubywand in particular is very knowledgeable and friendly. Ernest From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Jun 10 07:26:12 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:13 PM > > Yeah, I heard a rumour that Apple offered GS/OS there, but I don't have > any way of transferring the software (unless an Apple II meister out there > would like to explain how ...) Can today's Macs format ProDOS volumes still? > If not, does anyone have GS/OS on disk, or willing to make copies? I would > gladly reimburse any inconvenience or we could come to an equitable > understanding ... :-) The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks well. GS/OS v6 (the latest) needs more memory than just the 1MB Apple memory card. If your IIgs only has about 1MB then do not bother with GS/OS. The previous owner may have been using them as IIe's (ProDOS 8) as I do with my IIgs. I can copy the disks for you, but you will have to send me a box of DS/DD disks as I do not wish to lose any of my little hoard. > By the way, about upgrading the SE/30. I want to upgrade the thing to > System 7.x but NOT if it will mean I can no longer run AppleShare File > Server. Can I download a System 7 friendly ASFS anywhere? This poor > thing doesn't even have MultiFinder. I do know that Apple has System 7 > for download, and I should hope a 68K version of ASFS ... ? I *think* that ASFS v2 can only run on System 6 while ASFS v3 can run on System 7. Both may take over the entire machine so using the Mac normally may be impossible. Make a backup before experimenting! My answer to the Apple II/Macintosh/MS-DOS data transfer problem is a Macintosh LC II with an Apple IIe card running System 7.1 and the extension that lets me read and write Apple II and MS-DOS disks. The extension cannot handle Win9x long file names but I do no need that. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 08:41:31 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > > > The space program, while costing the taxpayers a sizable amount > > of money, has produced huge quantities of spinoff projects and > > technologies that have definitely benefitted mankind. > > Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > Tang was developed by General Foods in the 1960's. It was an 'also ran' product until chosen by nasa as an alternative to plan water during space missions. NASA and the space race has developed technologies such as artificial satelites, which gives us 100's of TV channels, cell phones, and pagers... The bastards!!! clint PS all spelling errors are due to staying up too late to play Drakan (on my wizzy new Pentium III - 600!!! with an antique (1 year old design) motherboard :) From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 09:33:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <002301bfd279$4db449c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <001101bfd2e8$e23a9940$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I don't know about how much sulphur is required, but quite a bit of carbon-black is required to make the stuff sufficiently rigid and durable to resist abrasion sufficiently for use in tires. Of course, that's not all it takes, but the process was set in motion by accident, and that was Don's point. The Latex laced with carbon-black, and perhaps a bit of sulphur, after lots of refinement, remained the preferred material for truck tires long after the discovery of synthetic (styrene-butadiene) rubbers suitable for normal automobile tires. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:16 AM Subject: Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally > >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we > >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > > > - don > > Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required > for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich > carbon? > > carlos. > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 08:20:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <00bb01bfd2e2$029bf3c0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. I thought it was sulphur. Carbon black was added for light/uv resistance. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 08:24:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <00bc01bfd2e2$04b759b0$7764c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > >>For the blinkenlights, my least favorite choice is LEDs; does anyone >>have a reason for a preference of Ne2 bulbs over incandescent bulbs or >>vice versa? NE2 bulbs need 75-90v db supply to run. If your to use them use NE2H as they are brighter. >Actually in my PDP-8/x the use of white LEDs seems like it will be a win. Almost... White leds are biased toward blue white and incandesent lamps were white biased toward red. Also with incandesant the color of the lens cap was a factor. for examaple it could be red, amber, green even blue. Allison From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 09:46:46 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. > Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many > shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a bad idea when shopping for a car either. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 10:29:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 Message-ID: Greetings, Can certain list members who aren't sending standard ASCII text kindly fix their e-mail software so that they stop sending messagse that could possibly cause problems for some people using older systems? Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep from going out of use? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 10 10:35:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 04:17:15PM -0700 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608161201.00ce2330@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000610113525.A10041@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Decoding an address >for the switch register in the top 4K would be pretty straightforward as >well. Does anyone know if there is a defined location for it? 17777570 John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Jun 10 10:40:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:36 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000 References: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). WD40 seems to work OK for lube while honing cylinders in car engines. But it doesn't have to hang around long for that... Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. John Wilson D Bit From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 10:34:15 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADDC@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Is > > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > > disguised as a flaw? > > > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > security is just not that good. > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > has not improved. > > First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as > Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what > a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was > that it would provide information sharing between a small > number of trusted and trusting sites. > Yes, the ARPAnet (funded by DARPA - DEFENSE Advanced Research blah blah) was the prototype for a distributed communications system built to survive a nuclear attack. MILnet was built based on this prototype, and is in use today. It is mostly secure because there are only a few, tightly controlled, gateways to the Internet. NSFnet was the publically funded arm developed to facilitate communication between universities and a few corporations. For the most part individuals that had access to the Internet were college upperclassmen, who had a real reason to have access. My first experience was in the mid-80's, when more lowerclassmen were being granted access. This brought about the proliferation of ftp sites with pictures of nekked women, and the threat from NSF to disconnect any site (they could do that, and make it stick) engaged in such a frivolous waste of bandwidth. There still wasn't a great need for security because the only people having access were college educated individuals without a great design to destroy. Hacking into remote computers was done for the challenge and to discover new stuff. Then AOL came along :) With the selling of backbone connections by AT&T and others, and the proliferation of internet connections that NSF didn't control, NSFnet was soon overwhelmed and absorbed by the Internet. We now have an anarchy of competing ISPs tied into the Internet, and low cost access available to any monkey with a keyboard. There is now a real need to protect the backbone against malicious hackers, but no real way to do it. > However, from my own personal experience, I have never > succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > second time. > > regards, > -doug quebbeman > > From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Jun 10 10:42:40 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Removing surface-mounted ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks for the several helpful replies on this topic. > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 Clint Wolff wrote: > > I would recommend against putting the board in an oven. This will > > result in the entire IC getting too hot, and possibly breaking. > > Modern plastic package absorb a small amount of water from the air. > > Heating the part may result in a small steam explosion. ICs are > > shipped from the factory in sealed bags with some desiccant inside. > > The label on the outside says to solder them down within a fairly > > short time after opening (couple days IIRC). > > Ah, I have read about that. > > IC manufacturers often specify a procedure to use when chips which may have > absorbed water are to be used. This involves baking at low temperature for a > while. > > Assuming that (for the purposes of removing absorbed water) one plastic IC > package is the same as the next, at which temperature and for how long should > this baking be done? > > The lowest setting on my oven is 70 degrees C. If that is low enough -- I > guess it should be as most ICs are specified for operation to 75 C or so -- I > may try putting the board in there for 12 or 24 hours, before turning the > temperature up to melt the solder. > > > -- Mark > Hi Mark, I don't know. I would be concerned about heating the entire chip up to a high enough temperature to melt the solder. You are almost certainly going to damage it. Most ICs are specified with specific temperature profiles to avoid damage, and they are only above the melting point of solder for a few seconds, followed by a fairly lengthy cooldown period. You need to quickly melt the solder, remove the IC, and let it cool down slowly. I don't think this is possibly in an oven. clint PS the offer stills stands to use the hot air equipment at my workplace. I regularly remove 208 pin SQFPs and occasionally reinstall them :) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 11:01:43 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at "Jun 10, 0 08:26:12 am" Message-ID: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> ::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). ::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). ::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks ::well. Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but I can get some. ::GS/OS v6 (the latest) needs more memory than just the 1MB Apple memory ::card. If your IIgs only has about 1MB then do not bother with GS/OS. The ::previous owner may have been using them as IIe's (ProDOS 8) as I do with my ::IIgs. Can ProDOS speak AppleTalk? That's the main reason for my interest in GS/OS. If ProDOS can access an AppleTalk server, then I don't really care about GS/OS. How much memory does v6 require? ::I *think* that ASFS v2 can only run on System 6 while ASFS v3 can run on ::System 7. Both may take over the entire machine so using the Mac normally ::may be impossible. Make a backup before experimenting! This is ASFS v2. Where can I get v3? (Yup, it does take over the whole machine :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but the doorjambs need dusting." ------------- From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 11:01:24 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one > riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course > there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd > be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few > months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent > ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. Have you tried a spray can of white lithium grease? It's not permanent, but it may last a while longer on your house's door hinge than WD40. Note: there appear to be two varieties, the thin stuff that doesn't last long on car door hinges, that's now sold by some auto parts stores, and the heavy thick stuff that one sprays on car door and hood hinges, etc. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 10 11:19:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) References: Message-ID: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 10, R. D. Davis wrote: > Can certain list members who aren't sending standard ASCII text kindly > fix their e-mail software so that they stop sending messagse that > could possibly cause problems for some people using older systems? > > Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in > computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages > instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to > be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, > then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very > much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain > old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep > from going out of use? I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or "non-windows" issue. -Dave McGuire From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 10 11:30:29 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Vax-11 Instruction Set Videos References: <4.3.1.2.20000531223645.02c59c30@208.226.86.10> <393679F7.77B16644@rain.org> Message-ID: <39426D25.F88A2800@rain.org> So far, there has been no interest. One last chance before I put them out on Ebay; anyone interested? If so, make what you consider a reasonable offer. My current plan is to put them on Ebay Sunday or Monday evening. Thanks. > This is a set of thirteen 3/4" tapes that cover the Vax-11 Instruction Set. > They are titled: > > Instruction Formats & Addressing Modes > Lesson 1, Lessons 2 & 3 > Integer, Logical, & Branch Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 & 4 > Floating Point Instructions > Variable Bit Field Instructions > Stack & Address Instructions > Procedure & Subroutine Instructions > Character String Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, lessons 3 & 4 > Special Instructions > Decimal String Instructions > Lessons 1 & 2, Lessons 3 - 5 > > I am selling these for John as he is doing what I should be doing: emptying > the house :).Again, these are on 3/4" tape, NOT VHS. $300 for the set + > shipping for about 27 pounds or so. From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 10:31:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > Yeah! Like Tang and Velcro! > > Tang was developed by General Foods in the 1960's. It was an > 'also ran' product until chosen by nasa as an alternative to > plan water during space missions. Ok, so both of my examples have been shot down. So I'll propse two alternates: Food in a squeeze tube and suction toilets!! Two obviously very useful inventions. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 11:34:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002901bfd2f9$c2c763c0$0400c0a8@winbook> You can use WD40. However, you need to add some Molybdenum Disulfide, which is one of those compounds they put in grease in order to make it slippery. The WD40 will evaporate, or whatever it does, leaving the moly-disulfide behind to do the job. You'll have to buy about a pound at some industrial supply house, and it will cost about the 5% if what a 1-ounce bottle at one of the rare suppliers (I couldn't find one when I last bought a pound) that do have it would cost. Moly-disulfide is a dry powder, and a 1-pound quantity would be a hundred lifetime supplies. Once you have it, you'll find that it works for LOTS of lube applications. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:19:16PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > >Part of it is probably that people who would *like* to be clueful about > >such things don't know what is should actually be used for (if anything). > > WD40 seems to work OK for lube while honing cylinders in car engines. > But it doesn't have to hang around long for that... > > Can anyone suggest a spray lube that *is* a good permanent lube? The one > riveted hinge on the back door to my house squeaks a lot, and of course > there's no hole to dribble real live oil in (if I had designed it, there'd > be a grease nipple, but no one ever asks me!). WD40 fixes it for a few > months at a stretch, but the NON-riveted hinges have been totally silent > ever since I packed them with wheel bearing grease, years ago. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 11:40:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 11:40:20 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <002f01bfd2fa$92571220$0400c0a8@winbook> A lot of the security problems would go away if they took the few individuals they actually catch abusing their net use privilege and dipped them, slowly, into a hot solder-pot during half-time of a major televised sporting event. If they dip a few extra guys, it's OK, since we're overpopulated by 10000% anyway. An apology would suffice and think of what it would do for the ratings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:34 AM Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Is > > > > the lack of security on the Internet possibly a well designed feature > > > > disguised as a flaw? > > > > > > No, it is because much of it is Unix oriented. And Unix > > > security is just not that good. > > > > This isn't quite right, but does explain why Internet security > > has not improved. > > > > First and foremost, like most other ARPA projects (such as > > Multics), the ARPAnet was meant to be a prototype for what > > a network could be. One of the base-level assumptions was > > that it would provide information sharing between a small > > number of trusted and trusting sites. > > > > Yes, the ARPAnet (funded by DARPA - DEFENSE Advanced > Research blah blah) was the prototype for a distributed > communications system built to survive a nuclear attack. > MILnet was built based on this prototype, and is in use > today. It is mostly secure because there are only a few, > tightly controlled, gateways to the Internet. > > NSFnet was the publically funded arm developed to facilitate > communication between universities and a few corporations. > For the most part individuals that had access to the Internet > were college upperclassmen, who had a real reason to have > access. My first experience was in the mid-80's, when > more lowerclassmen were being granted access. This > brought about the proliferation of ftp sites with pictures > of nekked women, and the threat from NSF to disconnect > any site (they could do that, and make it stick) engaged > in such a frivolous waste of bandwidth. There still wasn't > a great need for security because the only people having > access were college educated individuals without a great > design to destroy. Hacking into remote computers was done > for the challenge and to discover new stuff. > > Then AOL came along :) With the selling of backbone > connections by AT&T and others, and the proliferation of > internet connections that NSF didn't control, NSFnet was > soon overwhelmed and absorbed by the Internet. We now > have an anarchy of competing ISPs tied into the Internet, > and low cost access available to any monkey with a keyboard. > There is now a real need to protect the backbone against > malicious hackers, but no real way to do it. > > > However, from my own personal experience, I have never > > succeeded in creating a prototype of a system to show to > > management that management didn't say "a few more tweaks > > and we're done". Although prototypes, both Multics and > > ARPAnet were rushed into production because no one wanted > > to take the time to stop and do it over again, better the > > second time. > > > > regards, > > -doug quebbeman > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Jun 10 10:54:01 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Or rather annoying to the surplus shop owner, thrift shop manager, etc. > > Sure it's reasonable to want to make sure what you're buying, but not many > > shops are going to put up with you disassembling their goods in the store. > > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > bad idea when shopping for a car either. R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being forcibly escorted out of the store. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 12:09:36 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 10, 0 12:40:10 pm" Message-ID: <200006101709.KAA07198@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy ::drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've ::seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal ::floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the ::SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. For the record, this one here is one FD, one HD, and so have all the SE/30s that I've seen. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The world only beats a path to your door when you're in the bathroom. ------ From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Jun 10 12:18:42 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <20000610172026.YJCD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > Date: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:01 PM > > Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to > another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do > the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but > I can get some. The SE/30 can handle 800K disks with no problems (unless someone changed the drive...). You will need Disk Copy 4.2 to create the disks. > Can ProDOS speak AppleTalk? That's the main reason for my interest in > GS/OS. If ProDOS can access an AppleTalk server, then I don't really care > about GS/OS. How much memory does v6 require? I have an Apple II Workstation Card that will let my Apple IIe, using ProDOS 8, talk to ASFS. It is possible, but I have not done it yet myself. Someday I will set up an AppleShare server for my Apple IIs but I simply have not done it yet. > This is ASFS v2. Where can I get v3? (Yup, it does take over the whole > machine :-) See the following site for information on ASFS v3: http://lowendmac.com/tech/appleshare3.shtml. I do not know where to get it. I just missed it once on Usenet; by the time I contacted the owner it was already gone. It had version 2 and 3 with all the disks and manuals, too. For more help, try Usenet at comp.sys.apple2. That's where I learned most of what I know about networking Apple IIs. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Jun 10 12:39:09 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: R.D. Davis wrote: > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > bad idea when shopping for a car either. Sellam Ismail replied: < R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being forcibly escorted out of the store. > Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally, store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something. You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though. Glen 0/0 From g at kurico.com Sat Jun 10 12:53:28 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: References: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <39423A48.4968.4E3D731@localhost> > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. Pretty uncommon. The hd normally lives where the bottom floppy would go, so if yours is dual floppy + hd, then I'd think that the hd is third party and mounted towards the back of the unit under the crt? George From red at bears.org Sat Jun 10 13:32:20 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000610172026.YJCD2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > The SE/30 can handle 800K disks with no problems (unless someone changed > the drive...). You will need Disk Copy 4.2 to create the disks. I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write the older GCR-type disks. I forget now the list of which Macs can and cannot do this, but ISTR the SE/30 was very close to being the last, if not itself the last. I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. ok r. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 10 11:40:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <003501bfd304$2e536350$7764c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to >do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or >"non-windows" issue. It's not that either. It's lazy or just plain lack of knowledge. outlook express and be told to use plain text (not rtf or html) and far as I know I'm doing just that from a NT4 system. It annoying to me as a NT/OE user as RTF and html will alter termprorary settings for fonts and all when I don't want that all due to someone who does not know. Allison From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 10 13:48:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000610021649.011e3074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 10:33 PM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > >And don't overlook one Charles Goodyear. If he had not accidentally > >dropped a sample of latex laced with carbon black on a hot stove, we > >might still be on wooden wheels with iron treads. > > > > - don > > Am I missing something? Isn't S+heat what is actually required > for latex vulcanization? Or was that a particularly sulphur-rich > carbon? > > carlos. Nope, I was! - don From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 14:39:52 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at "Jun 10, 0 02:32:20 pm" Message-ID: <200006101939.MAA10102@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from ::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this on the Apple FTP site? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. ------------------ From rdd at smart.net Sat Jun 10 14:49:25 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > "non-windows" issue. Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system issue. Thanks for the explanation. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From vonhagen at vonhagen.org Sat Jun 10 15:04:36 2000 From: vonhagen at vonhagen.org (William von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer and "Smart Shopping" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000610153840.00e0e880@vonhagen.org> I'll have to add my voice to the geek chorus here ;-) Buying random hardware out of a mountain of spares at a hamfest is one thing, but getting a used S-100 FOOBAR at the local Red, White, and Blue is another. No store owner with any notion of what liability means is going to let some random come in and start attaching probes to a motherboard even if the store owner should happen to understand the difference between AC, DC, and Metallica ;-), let alone to a power supply or monitor. I've definitely bought used systems over the years that I've said "I should have looked" when I got them home and found blown caps, melted wires, skunked power supplies, and even dead rodents inside. Once I get them home, I always open them up before powering them on. You hopefully only experience the "OhNo" second once in your collecting career (the first second after you turn something on, it smokes, and you think "Oh no.") My general philosophy for such things is "parts is parts." I've frequently bought pieces of systems or docs and software for systems I didn't even own - eventually, when I find another one or the rest of one, I'll be that much closer to a working system. It'd be nice to be able to always know what you're buying. When I bought my wife our first Jaguar (er, the car, not the game system), how was I to know that one of the gas tanks was rusty and they were both welded inside the body? I wasn't happy then, but now it seems funny. Much like buying our first house - the owners had all of these hardcore born-again signs all through the house. Would they lie about things? Absolutely. Was I irritated then? Definitely. Do I still care now? Definitely not. As I read back over this, maybe I'm just advertising the fact that I'm not a smart shopper. Having confessed, does anyone have any 1980s vintage workstations they're looking to get rid of? I would still give my eyeteeth for a WCW or Hitec workstation, and could always use more NBI U!s or ISIs. Any condition is OK (and I think you see that I mean that!). I'll be glad to pay shipping from almost anywhere. Bill t 01:39 PM 6/10/00 -0400, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: >R.D. Davis wrote: > > > I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something > > before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect > > sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some > > random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a > > bad idea when shopping for a car either. > >Sellam Ismail replied: > >< R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer > electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and > meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being > forcibly escorted out of the store. > > >Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to >perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd >assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them >to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally, >store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make >sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something. > >You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though. > >Glen >0/0 From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 10 15:09:20 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question Message-ID: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Hi, I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, but there's a missing button battery of some kind. Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery I should use (the circular battery)? thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 15:43:08 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at "Jun 10, 0 03:49:25 pm" Message-ID: <200006102043.NAA12732@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to ::> do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or ::> "non-windows" issue. :: ::Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system ::issue. Thanks for the explanation. iN THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISCUSSION, i SUBMIT THAT ALL MAIL SHOULD ACTUALLY BE IN petascii, AS BEFITS A CLASSIC COMPUTING FORUM. tHIS PARTICULAR MESSAGE SHOULD HOPEFULLY SET AN EXAMPLE. -- --------------------------- PERSONAL PAGE: HTTP://WWW.ARMORY.COM/%7eSPECTRE/ -- cAMERON kAISER * pOINT lOMA nAZARENE uNIVERSITY * CKAISER@PTLOMA.EDU -- i DO NOT FEAR COMPUTERS. i FEAR THE LACK OF THEM. -- iSAAC aSIMOV ---------- From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 10 15:44:26 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: GRiDCase 3 price question. Message-ID: <20000610204426.24289.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anybody know what the asking price for a GRiDCase 3 is? I would love to ad this to my collection one of these days. A bit of trivia: If anybody has seen the *long* version of the movie "Aliens" , the computers that the marines use to control the motion controlled smart guns are GRiDCases, I'm not sure which model. My guess is that they are GRiDCase 3's. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 15:45:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006101601.JAA15040@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <20000610123851.XEOA2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at "Jun 10, 0 08:26:12 am" Message-ID: >::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). >::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). >::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks >::well. > >Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to >another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do >the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but >I can get some. I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lbutzel at home.com Sat Jun 10 15:52:18 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question References: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Stan - I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the backup power source. Leo Butzel Seattle,WA lbutzel@home.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stan Sieler To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:09 PM Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question > Hi, > > I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, > no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see > that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, > but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > > Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery > I should use (the circular battery)? > > thanks! > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 16:06:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: >> I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly examining something >> before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect >> sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some >> random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a >> bad idea when shopping for a car either. > >R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer >electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and >meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being >forcibly escorted out of the store. Lets face it, he's got to be in a different reality than the rest of us! I know of exactly one 'dealer' who this kind of behavior is acceptable with, of course in his case, he's likely to be the one tearing the stuff open to see what's in it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Jun 10 16:26:41 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <200006102043.NAA12732@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jun 10, 2000 01:43:08 pm" Message-ID: <200006102126.QAA05294@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > ::> I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > ::> do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > ::> "non-windows" issue. > :: > ::Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > ::issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > iN THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISCUSSION, i SUBMIT THAT ALL MAIL SHOULD > ACTUALLY BE IN petascii, AS BEFITS A CLASSIC COMPUTING FORUM. > tHIS PARTICULAR MESSAGE SHOULD HOPEFULLY SET AN EXAMPLE. > I ^C^A^N^N^O^T ^U^N^D^E^R^S^T^A^N^D ^W^H^A^T ^Y^O^U ^A^R^E ^T^R^Y^I^N^G ^T^O ^S^A^Y. C^A^N ^Y^O^U ^R^E^S^E^N^D ^T^H^E ^M^E^S^S^A^G^E ^U^S^I^N^G ^P^R^O^P^E^R C^O^N^T^R^O^L D^A^T^A C^O^R^P^O^R^A^T^I^O^N (CDC) ASCII? T^H^A^N^K ^Y^O^U. L^A^W^R^E^N^C^E L^EM^A^Y !RUTGERS!UMN-CS!LEMAY From ss at allegro.com Sat Jun 10 16:56:54 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <39425736.28479.F81314C@localhost> Hi, > I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the > backup power source. thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From richard at idcomm.com Sat Jun 10 17:00:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 References: Message-ID: <001901bfd327$3dad0e00$0400c0a8@winbook> That reduces almost trivially to a convenience versus self-flagellation issue. After years of fiddling with pine and the like, whichever happened to be on the system to which I had shell access, I'm glad there's a convenient way to utilize the net. Without getting into the Windows versus "other" debate, I must say it's a simple matter of using what's easy and convenient as opposed to something not so easy and not so convenient. Neither one does exactly what I want it to do, but one is close enough while the other isn't. Apparently lots of others feel the same way, though I imagine most Windows users have no other experience on the net. I'd say it's easy enough for most folks to turn off the fancier-than-plain-old-text mode and resort to simple text transmission. Occasionally, however, since I do communicate with people who like to use HTML, I sometimes forget and leave the mode in whichever state it was when I answered the previous mail. Perhaps others have made that mistake as well. The inconvenience of being incompatible with the HTML when I'm using a CP/M system (which I certainly don't do on the net) is a price one pays for using an old dog that can't seem to learn new tricks. Almost any 15-year-old long obsolete SUN box can do it. If I want to use my old 8-bitter to do this, inconvenient or not, it's my choice, don't you think? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 > On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 10 17:01:15 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) References: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14658.47787.664656.260982@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 10, R. D. Davis wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. Well, pretty much, yes. -Dave McGuire From bwit at pobox.com Sat Jun 10 17:03:42 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000610170317.00a8d260@mail.ruffboy.com> DL2032 lithium. At 01:09 PM 6/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, >no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see >that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, >but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > >Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery >I should use (the circular battery)? > >thanks! > > >Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com >www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Withers Do or do not, there is no try. bwit@pobox.com Yoda. http://www.ruffboy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- Version 3.1 http://www.geekcode.com GCS d- s: a+ C++ UO++ P L++ E--- W++ N++ o-- w++ O M V- PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5 X++ r* tv+ b++ DI++ D--- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++ ----- END GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- From owad at applefritter.com Sat Jun 10 19:04:28 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006110007.RAA18262@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from >::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. > >Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this >on the Apple FTP site? ftp://ftp.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English- North_American/Macintosh/Utilities/Disk_Copy/Disk_Copy_4.2.sea.hqx Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From lkinzer at sciti.com Sat Jun 10 21:21:20 2000 From: lkinzer at sciti.com (Lowell Kinzer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question In-Reply-To: <002601bfd31d$c4b56dc0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> References: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000610182056.00b00390@popmail.ltsp.com> Stan, The technical specifications for the various Newton models are still available on the Apple web site. The Newton support page starts here: http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n26179 Best regards, Lowell Kinzer lkinzer@sciti.com At 12:52 PM 6/10/00, Leo Butzel wrote: >Stan - > >I have a messagePad 130. It takes a Panasonic CR2032 or equiv. for the >backup power source. > >Leo Butzel >Seattle,WA >lbutzel@home.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Stan Sieler >To: >Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:09 PM >Subject: Netwon Message Pad battery question > > > > Hi, > > > > I just picked up a Newton Message Pad (with no manuals, > > no A/C adapter, nada), and it has no batteries. I can see > > that it takes 4 AAA batteries for the main power, > > but there's a missing button battery of some kind. > > > > Can anyone please tell me what kind of backup battery > > I should use (the circular battery)? > > > > thanks! > > > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 20:34:42 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110007.RAA18262@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from Tom Owad at "Jun 10, 0 08:04:28 pm" Message-ID: <200006110134.SAA05910@oa.ptloma.edu> Thanks, Tom and especially John L., who sent me the actual file. Will it work on System 6? I'm going to commandeer my friend's Mac tomorrow and do all the file and disk work. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Room service? Send up a bigger room. -- Groucho Marx ----------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jun 10 20:39:09 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 10, 0 01:45:58 pm" Message-ID: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> ::>::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX or MacBin). ::>::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if they can at all). ::>::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle the 1.44MB disks ::>::well. ::> ::>Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to ::>another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be able to do ::>the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD disks here, but ::>I can get some. :: ::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will the extension work on System 6? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From red at bears.org Sat Jun 10 20:44:43 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006101939.MAA10102@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::I personally used my SE/30 to generate the required GS/OS disks from > ::Apple's Disk Copy images, so it does work. > > Okay, I'll give it a shot. Where can I get Disk Copy 4.2 from? Is this > on the Apple FTP site? Yes, though 4.2 is several revisions behind. If Apple's FTP site doesn't have 4.2 availble, and the current software won't do the job (it at least runs on an SE/30), let me know and I may have a copy archived somewhere. ok r. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 10 20:57:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 10, 0 01:45:58 pm" Message-ID: >::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine to do it. > >I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to >format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will >the extension work on System 6? Um, let me change that statement to I've used mine running System 7.1 to do it. I guess that could make a difference.... :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Jun 10 22:17:06 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <200006110139.SAA12616@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000b01bfd353$85434d70$013da8c0@Corellian> You don't format the disk before you make a copy with Diskcopy. Diskcopy accepts what is known as an "image file". After loading the image file, you can insert a floppy and it will make a disk copy from that image, in whatever "format" the image was. After starting Diskcopy, if you insert a foreign diskette (such as when I put a LisaTest diskette into the drive), the Mac may complain that it is not a Macintosh disk, but you can select to "mount" it anyway. In any case, you can copy that disk, or make a copy onto it, or make a hard drive file image from from it. The Mac "superdrive" should handle both 800K and 1.44 diskettes (although I've only used Diskcopy to make a copy of an image on an external 800K drive just to be safe). This was all done on a Mac IIsi with 16mb and running system 7.5. John jlewczyk@his.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AppleTalk on the hoof > > > ::>::The software on Apple's FTP site is all in Mac format (.HQX > or MacBin). > ::>::Modern Macs have a hard time creating GCR 800K disks (if > they can at all). > ::>::Apple has gone to the cheaper MFM-only drives which handle > the 1.44MB disks > ::>::well. > ::> > ::>Think the SE/30 itself could handle it? If I downloaded the software to > ::>another Mac and took the disks over to the SE/30, would it be > able to do > ::>the ProDOS transfer? It is old enough :-) I don't have DD > disks here, but > ::>I can get some. > :: > ::I *know* the SE/30 should be able to handle it. I've used mine > to do it. > > I tried formatting a DD disk on it, but it only gave me the option to > format as Mac one- or two-sided. Am I missing an extension? If I am, will > the extension work on System 6? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Jun 11 00:23:27 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: FW: Last chance for tapes In-Reply-To: <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: For those of us that have QIC tape drives, this fellow has a bunch of DC6525 tapes, most of them still in their shrink wrap. Please contact him directly if interested. -=-=- -=-=- In article <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net>, you say... > Subject: Last chance for tapes > From: Jack LaBrecque > Reply-To: JITB@postoffice.worldnet.att.net > Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr, comp.sys.att, comp.periphs.scsi > > SONY QD6525N (Same as DC6525 from 3M) & 3M DDS-90 4mm. I have 50-100 of > each. Most are brand new and still in wrappers. Make me an offer or > they go to the dump. > > -- > Semper Fi > > Jack L > JITB's Home Page: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ > JITB's USMC Page: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/usmc/usmc.htm > PFC Edward A. Peterson: > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ed/pete.htm > > -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (http://www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin [a-t] bluefeathertech {d=o=t} com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Jun 11 10:51:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof Message-ID: <200006111551.IAA11828@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, thanks to a clever guy on c.s.a2, I got the IIgs to network boot. It involved going into the Control Panel, setting slot 2 to AppleTalk, and setting the startup slot to AppleTalk. It magically found Steve, the Mac, and was able to connect and boot ProDOS 8. BASIC.SYSTEM came up without a hitch, and I was able to use the Mac as a fileshare without problem. Neat! Thanks for all the help, folks! It had some trouble booting GS/OS from the Mac, however. It showed the "Welcome to the IIgs" box, and got about half-way through (at the bottom, an AppleTalk share icon eventually showed up), but then abruptly bombed out and dropped back to the AppleShare client. GS/OS then wouldn't come up at all until I rebooted the machine. Corrupt copy or not enough memory? Someone on c.s.a2 said it should at least boot with 1MB, even if it couldn't run much. Later today I'm going to build those GS/OS disks and see if starting it up from the floppy drive makes any difference. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words - From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 11 12:03:06 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news Message-ID: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Well just got back from my two weeks in Houston and had a few great finds and a little bad luck. The good news is I found a number of good finds, here's a short list as some of the items are not 10 years old yet. 1. Royal TA model F1 computer, ext. floppy drive, and user's manual all for $6 2. Amiga 1040 3. Percom ext. floppy drive unit 4. 15 - Mac keyboards, no cables but they were free for the taking. 5. Team concepts printer 6. NEC MultiSpin 6X cdrom reader 7. Socrates mousesystem with tablet and mouse 8. Epson Equity LT-286e laptop not working but was also free. 9. Scan-It by digital media labs for the Mac, $8 bucks at flea market 10. Sega 3D adapter 11. Many manuals and books 12. HP 98720A 13. Amiga 1000 14. Suncom animation station computergraphics sensor pad 15. Atrai printer adapter for the 800 The list is much longer but the other items do not meet the 10 year rule. The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. John Keys From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 11 12:36:33 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: Good News/Bad news (John R. Keys Jr.) References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com> On June 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. Wow, that *sucks*. Sounds like somebody needs some broken fingers. Sorry to hear that, man. -Dave McGuire From retro at retrobits.com Sun Jun 11 13:00:40 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> John, Congrats on the good finds! Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step up to the loss. My humble opinion. - Earl > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > John Keys > From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Jun 10 19:59:46 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 References: Message-ID: <026e01bfd3d5$eee8eb40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Even with windows I hate the non-ascii layout Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:49 PM Subject: Re: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 > On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > > "non-windows" issue. > > Hmmm, so this is an operating systems vs. a pseudo operating system > issue. Thanks for the explanation. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > From dann at greycat.com Sun Jun 11 13:22:24 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:36:33PM -0400 References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <14659.52769.215100.984950@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000611112224.A9086@greycat.com> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:36:33PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > Wow, that *sucks*. Sounds like somebody needs some broken fingers. > Sorry to hear that, man. Indeed! IANAL, but that strikes me as an extremely actionable offense: "I paid for it." They accepted it, There are implied contracts here. If that had happened to me, I would have left a smoking crater, figuratively speaking, where that store used to be. Some things shouldn't be tolerated. I'd consult a lawyer. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:02:47 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:37 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <3943E257.B1E88EE3@roanoke.infi.net> Sounds like the store DID "step up to the loss", they cut the price on another piece [amount unspecified] to compensate for the vandalism to the System/36......Let's not beat a dead horse here! Nice find BTW. Craig Earl Evans wrote: > > John, > > Congrats on the good finds! > > Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. > I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously > wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It > might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible > (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The > "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this > way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) > probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. > > A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If > not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. > > Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership > needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all > the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your > responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. > > I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step > up to the loss. My humble opinion. > > - Earl > > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > John Keys > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:20:06 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA Message-ID: <3943E666.BDCE51CF@roanoke.infi.net> I'm hoping that someone knows something about some of this stuff and/or can use some of it. Not free but really reasonable IF you can come to Roanoke, VA and load it up. HP 3000 Series III mainframe [a couple of racks worth, but some vandal hauled ALL the cards to a recycler prior to my finding it] HP 3000 system 30 cute little R2D2 sized mainframe [no cards] HP Tape Drives 7970 several variations HP disk drives, big and heavy 7920's & 25's HP keyboards & terminals 2640,2645, maybe some 2649's non HP stuff: CDC PA5N1 harddrives--also heavy! Bunch of NCR minis running VRX or VRX/E, also got a couple of controlers and a PS or two from the same series pile of TRS-80 series III Not cheap but lots of them: HP 1000 E&F series minis HP 21MX series minis HP "A" series minis This is a serious size pile--probably 2-3 tons of stuff in really good condition. My storage runneth over. Craig From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Jun 11 14:24:04 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA Message-ID: <3943E754.EB5669B5@roanoke.infi.net> Forgot to include the URL for some pix of this junk. http://mh106.infi.net/~ip500/HPcomputers/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 11 16:29:47 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news References: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> <001f01bfd3ce$f49e4500$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <001301bfd3ec$2c154fc0$59711fd1@default> No there was no warning before I left it and the manger told me this kind of thing happens alot there and they try not to let people leave items there. Had I been told this I would have had the lock it up the cage they keep the high dollar items in. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Good News/Bad news > > John, > > Congrats on the good finds! > > Regarding the System/36, the store's reaction just doesn't seem right to me. > I'm glad they found a way to kind of make it up to you, but it obviously > wasn't your fault that someone trashed the machine in your absence. It > might not have been their fault either, but usually stores are responsible > (whether they like it or not) for the mechandise on their premises. The > "AS-IS" is irrelevant, because you bought it "AS-WAS". Think of it this > way...if someone had trashed it BEFORE you bought it, you (or anyone else) > probably wouldn't have paid the $50 for it. > > A question: Did they tell you that you were leaving it at your own risk? If > not, then it seems that they were implicitly agreeing to the loss. > > Another example...you put a down payment on a new car, and the dealership > needs you to pick it up the next day. In the meantime, a vandal breaks all > the windows (on the dealer's lot), and scratches up the paint. Your > responsibility? Somehow I don't think so. > > I'm not an expert in these matters, but I believe that the store should step > up to the loss. My humble opinion. > > - Earl > > > The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a > > thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick > > it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok > > and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by > > taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. > > I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but > > they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I > > purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac > > 145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to > > settle my problem. I have never had anything like this happen before. > > John Keys > > > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 11 18:12:50 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Good News/Bad news In-Reply-To: <02e201bfd3c6$ea93bfc0$55701fd1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000611191250.0110abc4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:03 PM 6/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >The bad news is I found a System/36 model 5362 (complete) for $50 at a >thrift in Houston and I paid the folks for it and asked if I could pick >it up the next day as I would need a truck to carry it. They said ok >and when I came back to pick it up someone had trashed the machine by >taking out 5 cards and breaking them up on the floor next to the unit. >I asked the store manager to adjusted the price I had paid for it but >they said I had purchased it "AS IS" and said it was not trashed when I >purchased it the day before. They did agree to lower the price on a Mac >145B powerbook that I found sitting on the shelf there as a way to >settle my problem. I bet that the store manager has an idea about who could have done this. Most likely, someone asked about the item after you left, he was told that the item was taken and decided that you would not have it either. Unfortunately, there are many people like that. carlos. From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Jun 11 18:25:34 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Big pile of HP stuff--Roanoke, VA In-Reply-To: <3943E754.EB5669B5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000611192534.006c2408@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Wow, this brings back memories... the HP3000 series III was the first computer I ever touched; I was 13 at the time. My first BASIC program was the quadratic formula. I had to learn to use IF the first time that b^2-4ac turned out to be negative, something that I had not considered :-) . carlos. At 03:24 PM 6/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >Forgot to include the URL for some pix of this junk. >http://mh106.infi.net/~ip500/HPcomputers/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 11 18:41:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000611234157.31223.qmail@brouhaha.com> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > the older GCR-type disks. Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems whatsoever. As does my SE/30. From rdd at smart.net Sun Jun 11 18:55:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor or keyboard for it? Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? BTW, Does anyone have any stories of favorite PDP-8 or Decmate hacks, and, has anyone here used a DECmate for any music or sound synthesis applications? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Jun 11 20:58:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 07:55:58PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000611215824.A13332@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 07:55:58PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? I doubt it, with the standard slushware anyway. Maybe if you wrote your own. >Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? More or less -- the DECmate 2/3/3+ port of OS/8 is called OS/278. You can get raw disk images from ftp.dbit.com, under pub/pdp8/images/block. These are raw images in PDP-11 sector order, not Teledisk images, they can be written using PUTR.COM on a PC, or using whatever's handy on a Pro or MicroPDP-11 or MicroVAX. John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 11 20:18:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: <013701bfd417$14f8f6e0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? Running wps278, no! that software talks to the console at the default console device addresses. >Since it's in the PDP-8 family, can it run OS/8? Yes, specifically OS278 version. Again the tube and keyboard are required. Why? the default console is devices 03/04 and those ahve been assigned via hardware to the CRT/keyboard with slushware support. Slushware is the code loaded into the alternate memory (Control pannel ram) to do "special tasks". To run it to say the printer or comm port you have to use OS278 and write a new console driver and bind the two. To do that you'd need a PDP-8 or a PDP-8 emulator. >BTW, Does anyone have any stories of favorite PDP-8 or Decmate hacks, >and, has anyone here used a DECmate for any music or sound synthesis >applications? In theory a DECmate could do music... the problem is interfacing it as there is no "bus" to grab that is easily available. the problem is one of the fully integrated system and trying to add/interface to it beyond the available design. It could be done but it would not be easy. It would be good to go to the PDP-8 FAQ and read the treatise on why a DECMATE is not a PDP-8, (almost does count!). Allison From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Jun 12 00:03:50 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 Message-ID: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Hey teen gang, Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can avoid it. (P.S. - Plus, technically I'm kinda grey on whether the license I have represents a "legitimate transfer of right to use" or not. But since Ultrix is officially a deader-than-dead end-of-lifed "These aren't the droids you're looking for; why don't you talk to our nice Tru64 salespeople?" type of software, I don't really care :) I just want to install the damn thing on a DECstation 5000/200) (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of mortal men.) (P.P.P.S ...Or women.) -Seth From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 01:28:45 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 In-Reply-To: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com>; from sethm@loomcom.com on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 10:03:50PM -0700 References: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20000612012845.R29500@mrbill.net> On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 10:03:50PM -0700, sjm wrote: > Hey teen gang, > Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like > to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, > and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can > avoid it. > (P.S. - Plus, technically I'm kinda grey on whether the license I > have represents a "legitimate transfer of right to use" or not. > But since Ultrix is officially a deader-than-dead end-of-lifed > "These aren't the droids you're looking for; why don't you talk to > our nice Tru64 salespeople?" type of software, I don't really care :) > I just want to install the damn thing on a DECstation 5000/200) > (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. > But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of > mortal men.) > (P.P.P.S ...Or women.) > -Seth I've got a complete set of Ultrix 4.4 for DECstation (RISC) on TK50 tape, if anybody's interested in swapping VAX/VMS stuff for it.... Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 02:25:25 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? Message-ID: <20000612022525.U29500@mrbill.net> Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Mon Jun 12 12:39:10 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? Message-ID: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> In my experience great care is necessary with TK50 tapes.We bought a bunch original DEC tapes recently, but it was necessary to clean heads before reading every time. Wim ---------- > From: Bill Bradford > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: source for cheap TK50s? > Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 12:25 AM > > Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon Jun 12 06:41:17 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? References: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Sounds like the oxide is crapped out and starting to come off [on your heads!]. I ran across the same thing with a big box of HP cassettes--only about 6 out of 50 or so were even remotely usable [and they had been stored in the original storage boxes in reasonable environmental conditions for the last 20 years]. Doesn't bode well for the future of tape media. Craig W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > > In my experience great care is necessary with TK50 tapes.We bought a bunch > original DEC tapes recently, but it was necessary to clean heads before > reading every time. > > Wim > > ---------- > > From: Bill Bradford > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: source for cheap TK50s? > > Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 12:25 AM > > > > Anybody know a source for cheap TK50 tapes? I dont mind used... > > > > Bill > > > > -- > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ > > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > > +--------------------+-------------------+ From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Jun 12 07:47:39 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Nostalgic Technophile/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: HP Sales literature available for postage. References: <4.3.0.20000324095136.0200b7a0@pc> Message-ID: <005201bfd46c$6b8e2f20$5081b7d1@kstumpf> I have copies of both internal and customer sales material about HP printers and other HP gear from the late 1980s and early 1990s. It weighs about 10lb. Please reply directly to me. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile - Unusual Systems www.nostalgictechnophile.com - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 08:39:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADEA@TEGNTSERVER> Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke maybe 2 or 3? -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Lane [mailto:kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 1:23 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: FW: Last chance for tapes > > > For those of us that have QIC tape drives, this fellow > has a bunch > of DC6525 tapes, most of them still in their shrink wrap. > > Please contact him directly if interested. > > -=-=- -=-=- > > In article <3942FDF3.2D13@worldnet.att.net>, you say... > > > Subject: Last chance for tapes > > From: Jack LaBrecque > > Reply-To: JITB@postoffice.worldnet.att.net > > Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr, comp.sys.att, comp.periphs.scsi > > > > SONY QD6525N (Same as DC6525 from 3M) & 3M DDS-90 4mm. I > have 50-100 of > > each. Most are brand new and still in wrappers. Make me > an offer or > > they go to the dump. > > > > -- > > Semper Fi > > > > Jack L > > JITB's Home Page: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ > > JITB's USMC Page: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/usmc/usmc.htm > > PFC Edward A. Peterson: > > http://home.att.net/~jitb/ed/pete.htm > > > > > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies (http://www.bluefeathertech.com) > kyrrin [a-t] bluefeathertech {d=o=t} com > "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be > superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk) > From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Jun 12 08:41:03 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Is it possible to use a DECmate III from a terminal if one has no monitor >or keyboard for it? That depends on what you mean by "possible". The DECmate II and (I presume, although I've not played with one) the III use Harris I/O support chips. The first thing you need to do to these chips after power-on is to configure their address. Consequently, there's a table of IOTs executed by the processor straight out of reset to get the job done. It should be possible to switch the addresses configured for the console port and the printer port in that table. The effect would be that the printer port would now be the console port and the terminal emulation in the slushware would now run the printer port. No, I've not tried this. Furthermore, every time I mention the possibility some pretty knowledgeable folks usually tell me it won't work. I don't see why it won't work. BTW, does anyone have a good archive of Lasner's rantings? We really need a good Lasner rantings archive somewhere on the net. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Jun 12 08:58:52 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Reading old floppies In-Reply-To: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> References: <20000612102915.C7D9F36C0F@pandora.worldonline.nl> <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: mann@pa.dec.com (Tim Mann) To: trs80@cs.ubc.ca cc: m.krause@tu-harburg.de, jens@siliconsonic.de, norb@kcbbs.gen.nz, kim@breeze.org Subject: Reading old floppies with Catweasel Here's something that should be of interest to folks who have old TRS-80 disks they'd like to read but are having trouble doing it with modern hardware. Actually, it could be of interest to folks with disks from obscure old CP/M systems and the like too. A small company in Germany makes a specialized PC ISA card that, with the proper software, allows any kind of floppy disk to be read (and maybe written, too). The company is called Individual Computers, and the card is called the Catweasel ISA. There are also Amiga versions. See the following URLs for information on the card and how to order one: http://www.jschoenfeld.com/, and http://members.tripod.com/~apd2/catweasl.htm. Catweasel cards were in short supply for a while, and I had some trouble getting a working unit, but I have one now. I've just written a program for it that can copy any TRS-80 disk (in fact, any disk written by a WD177x/179x floppy disk controller, or by any PC floppy disk controller) to the DMK format that's used by David Keil's TRS-80 emulator for MS-DOS and by my TRS-80 emulator (xtrs) for Unix. The program auto-detects FM (single density) vs. MFM (double or high density) encoding, even on disks that have some sectors of each on the same track, like dual-boot Model I/III disks. My program (called cw2dmk, at least for now) works both on Linux and on MS-DOS or Windows 95/98, and I'll be releasing it in source code form after I've cleaned it up a little more. It's partly based on the Catweasel driver for Linux (see http://www.tu-harburg.de/~semk2104/cwfloppy/) written by Michael Krause. His driver works only with MS-DOS and Amiga formats, and only in double or high density, but it's nice because it lets Linux treat the disks as having real file systems on them that the kernel supports. My program only lets you make a disk image that works with an emulator. The original driver is GPL'ed, so my program will be too. I've already used the program to copy about 50 single density and "copy protected" TRS-80 disks that I got from Kim Watt to DMK format, and they all seem to work on xtrs. Even weird stuff like original TRSDOS 2.x single density disks with FA data address marks on the directory (which even PC's that can otherwise handle single density don't seem to be able to read), and games that do a WD17xx Read Track command and look for specific data in the gaps as part of their copy protection, were easy to read and the images work on xtrs. I haven't tried the images on David Keil's emulator yet, but I don't expect problems -- maybe a few minor ones with games that do especially strange things with the floppy disk controller. I did have to fix a couple of minor emulation inaccuracies (well, bugs) in xtrs to make a couple of the games boot. 8" disks should even work, though I haven't plugged in my 8" drive yet. I had no problems reading a 5.25" high density (1.2MB) disk, which looks identical to 8" double density at the controller interface, so I think true 8" will probably work on the first try. The program seems to work well already, but there are two things I'd still like to add: (1) Automatically detecting the type of drive you're using and guessing the number of tracks (35, 40, or 80) and number of sides on the media -- right now you have to tell the program this using command-line options, and (2) Writing the older .DSK (or JV3) format that Matthew Reed and Jeff Vavasour's TRS-80 emulators require, when the disk is not so "protected" that it can't be represented in that format. Those shouldn't be too hard once I get my next burst of energy. I'm hoping a few other TRS-80 folks will buy Catweasel cards now that this program is available. I don't get a commission or anything. :-) If you do (or are thinking about it) and want a copy of cw2dmk before I get around to putting it up on my Web page, let me know. Tim Mann tim.mann@compaq.com http://www.tim-mann.org Compaq Computer Corporation, Systems Research Center, Palo Alto, CA Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Jun 12 09:09:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADEA@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000612070925.00970890@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:39 12-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: >Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke >maybe 2 or 3? Contact the author of the original message and ask. I merely forwarded what I found on Usenet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 09:26:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The DECmate II and (I presume, although I've not played with one) the III > use Harris I/O support chips. The first thing you need to do to these > chips after power-on is to configure their address. Consequently, there's > a table of IOTs executed by the processor straight out of reset to get > the job done. It should be possible to switch the addresses configured True. > for the console port and the printer port in that table. The effect would > be that the printer port would now be the console port and the terminal > emulation in the slushware would now run the printer port. Will not work. > No, I've not tried this. Furthermore, every time I mention the possibility > some pretty knowledgeable folks usually tell me it won't work. I don't > see why it won't work. Simple, the slushware does the port to 5027based video and keycodes to ascii translations and terminal emulation. You would not want that inbetween a nominal serial port and the system while using a terminal. To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console requests are mapped to another port. the problem is that the 03/04 ports do not support the full set of standard IOTs for TTY and interrupts. the rest of the ports are even less like standard PDP-8 IO so you would at a minimum be designing a full set of slushware and IOTs. That is the crux of the Lasner ravings as to why a DECmate is not a PDP-8. It is a system that is largely pdp-8 in character because of a micro that executes most PDP-8 opcodes. However there is a holw class of PDP-8 things a decmate can't due to lack of buss access and the ability to interface to real PDP-8 peripherals (not easy to do threy cycle databreak using the CMOS CPU as a coopertive element). check UU.SE and also www.dbit.com the nickles directory. Allison From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Jun 12 09:47:36 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Last chance for tapes References: <3.0.5.32.20000612070925.00970890@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Message-ID: <3944F808.D65FAE40@arrl.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > At 09:39 12-06-2000 -0400, you wrote: > > >Would it be possible to get just a few of these? LIke > >maybe 2 or 3? > > Contact the author of the original message and ask. I merely forwarded > what I found on Usenet. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies I've tried to contact the guy but no response. Someone may have already bought the lot. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Jun 12 09:55:43 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Hi: I'm not particularly good at C, so I'm trying to learn more as I add tape image support to Claus Guiloi's Altair Emulator. Anyway, I have a "C pointers" question regarding copying the tape bits to the emulator memory. Here's some pseudo code... //delcared in i8080.c MEMSIZE is virtual memory size in bytes uchar Mem [MEMSIZE]; BOOL ReadTape (PSTR pstrFileName) PSTR pstrBuffer ; //buffer for fread command // make sure the file exists //allocate memory to fit tape image length and load file //determine file type (BIN or HEX) //if BIN, make sure that the image fits into the emulator memory size if (iLength > MEMSIZE){ OkMessage (hWnd, "Program too big to fit in memory!", szTitleName) ; return FALSE; } // for binary, so get load address from user and copy to memory array addr=MsgBox("Enter load address"); //obviously wrong. but it's only pseudo code // make sure that (load address + file size) <=65535 // copy binary image to the emulator memory for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; return 0; This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? Thanks again for the help. Rich From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 10:03:09 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> > However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in > the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a > space program (regardless of the motivations for pursuing space). By and > large "mainstream" entities (ie business, banking, etc) do not "develop" > technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of computers, fax machines (which > were in vented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some > other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't > change their ways. I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote location predated the deployment of electricity. -dq From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 10:13:31 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 12 10:17:15 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Finds in Pittsburgh, PA Message-ID: For anyone local (or who can get here relatively easily) and would be interested in this .... I stopped by the Goodwill Computer Store over the weekend, and saw that they have a bunch (maybe two dozen) SPARCstation IPC's and IPX's, for which they are asking $25.00/each. The people in the store didn't know anything about their configurations (as they said, "We're pretty clueless about those boxes"....), so I don't know if they come with any memory or disk, and I didn't bother trying to open any of them up. Some appear to have graphics accelerators, though (based on looking at occupied Sbus slots on the back of the machine). There are also a couple of SPARCstation 1+ and SPARCstation 2 machines, in about the same price range, plus a about half a dozen HP/Apollo Series 700 machines for which they are asking $37.50. None of these machines appear to include any keyboards or mice. There are a few Sun monitors on the shelf, but they are being sold separately. To the best of my knowledge, the store does not ship, so you'd have to physically visit there to make a purchase. I don't know who you'd talk to there if you wanted to work out a "special deal" of some kind (e.g., purchasing several machines at once, for a lower price), since the day-to-day store staff do not have the authority to renegotiate prices. --Pat. From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 10:18:58 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com> > // copy binary image to the emulator memory > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > return 0; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented > by an array > of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. > My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? You could potentially get weird behavior that way. Some compilers do strange things converting signed to unsigned values. Try this instead: Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); or even: Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; for clarity. Note, I tend to go overboard with parens, I've seen a number of compilers and other programs which didn't do operator precedence correctly. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Jun 12 10:29:19 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Fax machines [WAS: Re: In defense of NASA ...] Message-ID: <00bb01bfd482$fac03240$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights >> This is true of computers, fax machines (which >> were invented in the 1700's BTW), and telecommunications. Without some >> other force driving the creation of technology, mainstream folks don't >> change their ways. > >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >location predated the deployment of electricity. > >-dq > Unless there is "prior art" that I'm unaware of, Doug is off by a century. See http://www.thg.org.uk/articles.htm#FACSIMILE for a brief history of the development of fax technology. Cheers, Mark. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Jun 12 10:37:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <20000612153722.16642.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > However, I will strongly disagree with anyone who believes we would be in > > the same place technologically as we are today if there had _not_ been a > > space program...large "mainstream" entities... do not "develop" > > technology, they "adopt" it. This is true of... fax machines > > (which were in vented in the 1700's BTW) > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. Think of Volta and his electric piles. Electricity generated by moving wires past magnets was a later development, but there was battery power in the 18th C. ISTR the device required an engraved copper plate for sending and synchronized pendula, one on each end of the transmission. I think the receiving paper was treated in some way to change color when exposed to an electric current. It wasn't very efficient, but to be able to transmit an image over a distance at all was quite a feat for its day. The practical application had to wait until the development of a national communications infrastructure. One of my favorite quotes from the telecommunications industry was a fellow who was chided for his enthusiasm about the new telephones. After all, we had the telegraph - who really needs to speak person-to-person all that badly. His (paraphrased) response: "The telephone is a wonderful device. I think at some point, every city will have one." -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 11:06:48 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) References: Message-ID: <20000612160153.41348.qmail@hotmail.com> They used to make internal hard drives for the Mac Plus that attached to the upper frame, to the side of the CRT. Someone probably kludged one into a SE case, not wanting to forego the all important second FD. I remember launching MacPaint on my Fatmac and having to swap out system disks ten or twelve times before I could doodle. Thank god for that external 400k drive, who would need more space? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:40 PM Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) > > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From ebrens at dds.nl Mon Jun 12 11:10:16 2000 From: ebrens at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com>; from bill@chipware.com on Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:18:58AM -0400 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> <000d01bfd481$87ff2be0$350810ac@chipware.com> Message-ID: <20000612181016.A18863@stronghold.xs4all.nl> On Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:18:58AM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > things converting signed to unsigned values. Try this instead: > > Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); > > or even: > > Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; This is not correct, the pstrBuffer element you are referring to is not a pointer but an uchar. The correct line should be: Mem[addr+i] = (uchar) *(pstrBuffer+i); Good luck, Erik. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 12 11:24:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Finds in Pittsburgh, PA References: Message-ID: <39450EA7.A9E72157@rain.org> Pat Barron wrote: > > For anyone local (or who can get here relatively easily) and would be > interested in this .... > > I stopped by the Goodwill Computer Store over the weekend, and saw that > they have a bunch (maybe two dozen) SPARCstation IPC's and IPX's, for Is this the store in Southside? If so and I lived near Pittsburgh, I would make both it and the regular Goodwill store a few doors down regular stops! > purchasing several machines at once, for a lower price), since the > day-to-day store staff do not have the authority to renegotiate prices. Again, if we are talking about the same store, they did renegotiate prices when I was there. Of course, I did buy more than $1 or two worth of stuff "). From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 12 11:46:26 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) Did you want the number of iterations to be iLength, or iLength +1 (what you have there)? > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; Did you want to add i to the pointer and retrieve what the resulting pointer points to, or did you want to retrieve what the pointer points to, and then add i to that value? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Jun 12 12:26:33 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Fax Machines In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000612102544.0260c6d0@208.226.86.10> At 11:03 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >location predated the deployment of electricity. Get a copy of "The Secret Life of Machines", the FAX Machine episode. Really cool stuff. --Chuck From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Jun 12 18:14:44 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc Message-ID: Hello, A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From bwit at pobox.com Mon Jun 12 12:32:16 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> At 10:55 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: [snip] > >// copy binary image to the emulator memory >for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > return 0; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array >of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. >My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? > Hi Rich, A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); return(0); Regards, Bob From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 12:32:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF2@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > -dq You can't possibly be serious. Electricity was deployed in the late 1890s and by 1928 fairly widely. Allison From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 12:36:35 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <20000612181016.A18863@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000e01bfd494$c176f430$350810ac@chipware.com> > > Mem[i+addr] = *((uchar *)(pstrBuffer+i)); > > > > or even: > > > > Mem[i+addr] = ((uchar *)pstrBuffer)[i]; > > This is not correct, the pstrBuffer element you are referring to is not a > pointer but an uchar. What? In the context of his example, pstrBuffer is a pointer to a signed character. The trick is to cast that pointer to be a pointer to an unsigned character. Then you can dereference the pointer using either the asterix or the array index. > The correct line should be: > > Mem[addr+i] = (uchar) *(pstrBuffer+i); This will result in exactly the same potentially ambiguous behavior as his original example. The compiler will probably deref the pointer into a signed int with the twos complement sign bit extended into the higher bits. Then the fun begins. If it takes the signed int and (logically) converts it into an unsigned int and then tries to convert that to an unsigned char, you potentially wind up with a significant overflow. The behavior at this point is not well defined. You might get the desired answer, you might not. Depends on who implemented the compiler, what the target architecture is, etc. From bill at chipware.com Mon Jun 12 12:46:19 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfd496$1da3a4f0$350810ac@chipware.com> > A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: > > memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); Or, if it's binary, why not read directly into Mem and skip the extra buffer all together. Something like: fread (Mem + addr, 1, iLength, pFile); From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Jun 12 12:48:58 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01bfd496$7d5ddeb0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old > style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I > don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick > adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. > -- Gary Hildebrand I don't have the pinouts but can reverse engineer a cable I have for a Sony 14" VGA/multiscan ca.1988. The monitor has a db 15 female connector in the back, plus the appropriate cable, sounds like what you have. John A. (away from Home) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 12 12:50:13 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: adapting a Mac/sony monitor to a pc In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Jun 12, 2000 05:14:44 PM Message-ID: <200006121750.LAA30491@calico.litterbox.com> Any good mac dealer should have adapters to do this. Do be aware that older mac monitors are often fixed frequency, so make sure the config your friend is using is right for the monitor. > > Hello, > > A friend of mine picked up a nice sony 17" (Mac) monitor, and it has the old > style DB15 connector. He wants to use it as a VGA monitor on his PC and I > don't know offhand what the pinouts are, on either end. I can make a quick > adapter to see if it works okay or not for him. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Mon Jun 12 12:12:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. > Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. As far as I know, the first facsimile machine was invented in around 1826 (there was a nice little article about it in the back of Success magazine [of all places] over a year ago). Napolean supposedly deployed them all around Europe so that he could distribute intelligence and battle plans fast and efficiently. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 13:19:41 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bain's machine was dated 1842, commercial service began at Paris, 1863. I think NYU law school has some interesting bits on the early fax service. On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > > > It may have been the very early 1800s, but such machines do exist. > > Pentelegraph (sp?) is one of them. > > As far as I know, the first facsimile machine was invented in around 1826 > (there was a nice little article about it in the back of Success magazine > [of all places] over a year ago). > > Napolean supposedly deployed them all around Europe so that he could > distribute intelligence and battle plans fast and efficiently. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Jun 12 13:18:39 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Simple, the slushware does the port to 5027based video and keycodes to >ascii translations and terminal emulation. You would not want that >inbetween a nominal serial port and the system while using a terminal. > >To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console >requests are mapped to another port. Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 12 13:21:25 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) Message-ID: I have a mac plus in my collection that has something called a Hyperdrive installed in it. It's a controller card and MFM hard drive that fits behind the crt and everything actually just fits. Mine amazingly still works. Unless it was a special configuration, there was no such thing as a dual floppy SE with a hard drive. In a message dated Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:10:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Jason McBrien" writes: << They used to make internal hard drives for the Mac Plus that attached to the upper frame, to the side of the CRT. Someone probably kludged one into a SE case, not wanting to forego the all important second FD. I remember launching MacPaint on my Fatmac and having to swap out system disks ten or twelve times before I could doodle. Thank god for that external 400k drive, who would need more space? ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:40 PM Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) > > Speaking of MAC SEs, how common was it to find an SE with two floppy > drives and an internal hard drive? All of the information that I've > seen on the 'net shows that it's typical to have either two internal > floppies, or one internal floppy and one internal hard drive, but the > SE I bought a couple of weeks ago has both. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > >> From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 14:14:23 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: Fax Machines References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000612102544.0260c6d0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000612190928.85285.qmail@hotmail.com> Do you know where to get these? I've only seen TSLOM on the Discovery channel, and they haven't played them in years. Nothing comes up on any internet searches, either. Damn BBC. While I'm at it, anyone remember an old Live from Off Center PBS show that featured a single, half hour long Rube Goldberg contraption? It was in a dark wharehouse and they taped it as some sort of performance art peice. It rocked, and I can't find any info on it. Thanks! -Jason McBrien ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: Fax Machines > At 11:03 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > >in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > >location predated the deployment of electricity. > > Get a copy of "The Secret Life of Machines", the FAX Machine episode. > Really cool stuff. > --Chuck > > From red at bears.org Mon Jun 12 14:37:25 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000611234157.31223.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 11 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > > the older GCR-type disks. > > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs wouldn't either. I'll have to see if I can remember where I read that and refresh my memory. ok r. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 12 14:34:55 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E91BA@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at Jun 12, 2000 10:55:43 AM Message-ID: <200006121934.PAA07647@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Cini, Richard once stated: > > Hi: > > I'm not particularly good at C, so I'm trying to learn more as I add > tape image support to Claus Guiloi's Altair Emulator. > > Anyway, I have a "C pointers" question regarding copying the tape > bits to the emulator memory. Here's some pseudo code... > > //delcared in i8080.c MEMSIZE is virtual memory size in bytes [ snipped --- NOTE: ``//'' is NOT a valid ANSI C comment delimeter, but some C compilers will accept it] I would be inclined to do the following: #include #include #define MAXSIZE 65536L #ifndef FALSE # define FALSE 0 #endif #ifndef TRUE # define TRUE !FALSE #endif typedef size_t i8080addr; int ReadTape (char *filename,void *dest,size_t maxsize); i8080addr AskLoadAddress (void); unsigned char Mem [MEMSIZE]; /* code ... */ loadaddr = AskLoadAddress(); if (loadaddr >= MAXSIZE) /* too large of an address */ return(FALSE); rc = ReadTape(filename,Mem+loadaddr,MAXSIZE - loadaddr); if (rc == FALSE) return(rc); /* rest of code */ Basically, read the file directly into the 8080 virtual memory space. Saves moving it around afterwards. But for your original question reguarding: > uchar Mem [MEMSIZE]; > PSTR pstrBuffer ; //buffer for fread command > // copy binary image to the emulator memory > for (i = 0; i <= iLength; i++) > Mem[i+addr] = (uchar) *pstrBuffer+i; > > This is the important code. The Altair's memory is represented by an array > of type uchar and pstrBuffer is the file buffer used int he fread command. > My question is whether I'm doing the assignment right? The right hand side looks suspicious so I might make it read: for (i = 0 ; i < iLength ; i++) Mem[i + addr] = (uchar) (*(pstrBuffer + i)); Arrays are zero based, so an array that is 10 elements long uses indicies from 0 to 9, so your original code would write one too many bytes (and may or may not crash the program, depending upon the system). -spc (Have C compiler, will program) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Jun 12 14:42:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF5@TEGNTSERVER> Ok, at least three people have questioned my remark, so I'd like to restate it. I was going to let it pass, but here goes. An article in an old issue of Radio Electronics, which was a construction article using surplus equipment, made the remark that fax'es weren't a new invention (new meaning 50's-60's) but that Toshiba had built and sold them in Japan since 1928. I posted this remark as a reply to someone who said that the facsimile machine had been invented in the 1700s. I found this difficult to believe as I would have thought that an electrical infrastructure would have been a necessary requirement. I was corrected on this. For anyone who misread my message and got instead that I thought electricity had been deployed after 1928 needs to go back to school and learn English all over again. Of course, if we were talking about Arkansas, I do believe the fax machine is older than Arkansas having electricty. Any Black Oak fans out there? :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 1:33 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > > > > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > > location predated the deployment of electricity. > > > > -dq > > You can't possibly be serious. Electricity was deployed in > the late 1890s > and by 1928 fairly widely. > > Allison > > From bwit at pobox.com Mon Jun 12 14:58:34 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair emulator code & C pointers In-Reply-To: <000f01bfd496$1da3a4f0$350810ac@chipware.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000612123216.008fb970@ruffboy.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000612145834.008f7cc0@ruffboy.com> At 01:46 PM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote: >> A possibly faster way to implement this loop is: >> >> memcpy(Mem + addr, pstrBuffer, iLength); > >Or, if it's binary, why not read directly into Mem and >skip the extra buffer all together. Something like: > >fread (Mem + addr, 1, iLength, pFile); > I agree. I was going to suggest that but the original code didn't show reading the data in so I didn't know if additional checks were being made to insure it was valid before placing it in "memory". Regards, Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:05:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <003301bfd286$6d211b00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 9, 0 08:48:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/700681e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:09:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 9, 0 10:57:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 812 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/bfe2705f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:45:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 9, 0 07:10:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 793 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/8042437f/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 12 15:04:40 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series Message-ID: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Well, today I walked by the auto labs in mech engr and found that they had finally finished dismantling this very old combustion/emissions test rig, and the HP1000 computer that ran the whole show had not been hauled away yet. Somebody had laid a claim on it two weeks ago, but since it's so long already and they haven't showed up, the person who handled the decomissioning gave it to me. I have not been able to open the front panel latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know what's in the front card cage; all I know is that there are seven cards, four at the botton and three at the top. In the back cage there are three jumper cards, two 12821A disk interfaces,one "time base generator card", and four cards marked "BACI 12966A" where most of the control I/O was apparently done. There are two big cards below the main card cage, but I haven't got to them yet. I also got several cables; two of them obviously connected the disk interface cards to an HPIB device (an HP 7946 tape drive also came in the lot), while others went to the test rig, and yet another seemed to go to a PC being used as a terminal. Unfortunately, I don't know where the cables were originally connected, as somebody had already pulled all cables off the computer. The machine is very, very dirty; not surprising considering where it came from (a car shop). The fans are full of oil-impregnated dust. I don't plan to power it up until I know more about it. They tell me that it was still functional about three years ago. Apparently nobody has touched it since. So, does anybody have any info on the power supply of this thing so I can test it before applying power to the cards? And, where did the console go in this machine? Best regards, carlos. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:14:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <94.57feac8.26731d55@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 10, 0 00:25:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2049 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/6095fa59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:47:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000609231916.21798.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 9, 0 11:19:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 959 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/b26a8944/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:21:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 10, 0 01:06:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/77d50e12/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 12:56:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <002901bfd283$911b56e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jun 9, 0 08:28:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/4f79177c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:50:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20000610114059.B10041@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Jun 10, 0 11:40:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1081 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/1ea56928/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:55:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 10, 0 08:54:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/f28e256c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 13:57:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Mac SE computers (was Re: AppleTalk) In-Reply-To: <200006101709.KAA07198@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 10, 0 10:09:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/336fe992/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 14:05:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 10, 0 01:39:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/f4ac2817/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 15:15:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization > table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that > goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? Stag is yet another company that no longer keeps any documentation around for their products that are more than a few years old. :-( Is it me, or is is strange, and ridiculous, that many computer and electronic equipment manufacturers don't even keep documentation around, not even for historical purposes, for more than a few years? It would make perfect sense for most companies in the computer and electronics field to replace all the "Inc."s with "Sales Corporation", since all they're obviously interested in is sales, not product quality or durability. ...well, they do talk about complying with that ISO9xxx "quality" lunacy, but we all know that's nothing more than a marketing gimmick to drive up prices and drive yet another stake in the coffin of individuality in the name of conformity. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 12 15:21:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Jun 12, 2000 03:37:25 PM Message-ID: <200006122021.NAA18724@shell1.aracnet.com> > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. PowerMac's just plain have problems with floppies. Last October I needed to read all my Mac floppies in and make disk images. I set up a 68k based Mac to do it, the speed difference is amazing. One would think the PowerMac would always be faster than a 68k Mac, but when it comes to reading or writing floppies you're best off using a 68k Mac if you've got any amount to do! Of course the reason I was making the disk images is so I could put them on CD-R, as my G4/450 didn't come with a floppy. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 12 15:34:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 12, 2000 08:05:39 PM Message-ID: <200006122034.NAA23861@shell1.aracnet.com> > > < R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer > > electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and > > meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being > > forcibly escorted out of the store. > > > > > Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to > > As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have, indeed, dismantled > consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of > the shop). Tony, Here in the country of stupid lawsuits and 'Super Stores' you'd probably be kicked out of the store for just suggesting it! In fact I got kicked out of a Bookstore on Saturday, they wouldn't let me even buy the books I had in my hand, all because someone had driven a car into the doorframe of the one entrance. Shoot in someplaces around here you'd be pushing your luck if you wanted to open the box to make sure all the pieces were in there. Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 16:23:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Fax Machines In-Reply-To: <20000612190928.85285.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Do you know where to get these? I've only seen TSLOM on the Discovery > channel, and they haven't played them in years. Nothing comes up on any > internet searches, either. Damn BBC. http://www.islandnet.com/~ianc/med/slom.html > While I'm at it, anyone remember an old Live from Off Center PBS show that > featured a single, half hour long Rube Goldberg contraption? It was in a > dark wharehouse and they taped it as some sort of performance art peice. It > rocked, and I can't find any info on it. Thanks! I remember that, and I wish I knew how to get a copy. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mrdos at swbell.net Mon Jun 12 16:46:14 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus Message-ID: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus property to the public? Thanks, Owen From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 16:49:03 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know if the UK stuff is different, but the WD40 I've seen seems > to leave a waxy deposit (probably just very thick oils/greases) on the > metal. I think it is just the old lubricant residue. > I don't know if this comes from the WD40, or if it's due to some > reaction between the WD40 and the old lubricant, or what, but it makes a > right mess of small mechnaisms, and it's non-trivial to get rid of. When I rebuild radio dynamotors, I always repack the bearings with synthetic lubricants. The time consuming job of the operation is getting the old crap out of the bearings. WD-40 works like a charm, but yes, I run into the residue, and I would rather not use a whole can of the stuff for each bearing! Acetone works well to get the rest of the stuff out. I put a little acetone in small cup and dip the bearings. The gunk comes right out and floats on the surface. It is indeed waxy. Be careful around plastics, of course. And for those that think this is Off Topic, remember that those of us with card readers and punches will have to go thru the motor rebuild process sooner or later (preferrably sooner). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 16:45:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006122034.NAA23861@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 12, 0 01:34:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/80845350/attachment.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Jun 12 16:57:09 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <39451665.20656.6BF7FF@localhost> I've never heard of that before. I know that UH, UT and Rice hold auctions to sell off old computers from time to time. One auction at Rice is open to people in the University first and what's left over is then offered to the public. Don't know for sure about any places in D/FW. David On 12 Jun 2000, at 16:46, Owen Robertson wrote: > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about > surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are > required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal > Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of > anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in > the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus > property to the public? > > Thanks, > Owen > > ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Jun 12 17:06:21 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Owen Robertson wrote: > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about surplus > property, and they said that all Texas Universities are required to turn > their old computers over to the Texas Criminal Justice (or something like > that) Department. Has anyone else heard of anything like this, or know why > they have to do this? Does anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any > Universities that sell surplus property to the public? My guess would be, that any such requirement would be on public (state-funded) universities only. I can't imagine any way a state would be able to, for all intents and purposes, seize the property of a private university. So, you might try finding schools that aren't state-funded, and see if you can buy surplus from them. Another snag you might run into is the problem with funding agencies. When I was at Carnegie-Mellon, I worked on a DoD-sponsored research project. We never surplussed *anything*, and we never threw anything away (at least, in the 2.5 years that I was there). The reason was, that our funding agency (who had paid for all of our hardware) required that, if we wanted to surplus something, we had to first go through a process to put it on a list to offer it to other government agencies. Only after the equipment had been on this list for several months, with no interest from any other agencies, could we dispose of it. We were told at the time that the estimated time from deciding to surplus something, until we were actually permitted to do so (assuming that it was not snapped up by another agency in the meantime), was at least 12 months. --Pat. From g at kurico.com Mon Jun 12 17:38:56 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Texas Universites Surplus In-Reply-To: <000301bfd4b7$a2c534c0$cb893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <39452030.32417.1035EA8A@localhost> Unfortunately this is true. All Texas public universities are required to let the convicts bang on any excess computer inventory (something to do with rehab programs to teach them how to repair computers). The sad thing is that _anything_ marked as a computer goes there, including things that they'd have no idea what to do with (i.e. anything other than a pc). I'm in the process of trying to find out what happens on the back end to stuff that they don't use (I hear they go to state contracted scrappers :( ). This all started towards the latter part of last year. I lucked out and was able to pick up an Intel iPSC because the things were marked as "power supply cabinets". Truely a sad state of affairs, I saw a Connections Machines and several RS/6000's at A&M destined to become a weapon for a prisoner. George > I just called a local (Fort Worth, Texas) University, asking about > surplus property, and they said that all Texas Universities are > required to turn their old computers over to the Texas Criminal > Justice (or something like that) Department. Has anyone else heard of > anything like this, or know why they have to do this? Does anyone in > the Dallas/Fort Worth area know of any Universities that sell surplus > property to the public? > > Thanks, > Owen > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 19:03:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 12, 0 05:49:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2026 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/32d9b276/attachment.ksh From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 12 19:27:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... Message-ID: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> If anybody ever asked me what cars could be compared to classic computers, this is what I'd pick out: System: TI-99/4A Car equivalent: DMC Delorean Reason: It looks like a Delorean, & is about as flawed. System: Original Apple Macintosh Car equivalent: Any Saturn Reason: Way back when, Apple wanted to make you think that you were the wise consumer. Saturn does the same. System: Altair 8800 Car equivalent: Ford Model "T" Reason: If you can't figure this one out, hang up your mouse on the way out. System: Commodore 64 Car equivalent: 1957 Chevy Reason: Name anybody who didn't have one of these when they were out! (both the car or the system, that is) System: Apple /// Car equivalent: Yugo Reason: None required. System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! System: IBM PC Jr. Car equivalent: Edsel Reason: See "Apple ///" System: Apple Macintosh II Car equivalent: Mack Truck Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. System: Commodore Amiga Car equivalent: Any Lexus Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise with its comparison. System: Apple LISA Car equivalent: Rolls Royce Reason: Self-explanitory. Got anything to add? I'd like to see what you guys can come up with? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From elvey at hal.com Mon Jun 12 19:31:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200006130031.RAA11737@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I normally soak ball races, etc in petrol (best) or paraffin (safer, but Hi For us yanks, paraffin is what we call kerosene, not the stuff we make candles from. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 19:56:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Jun 13, 0 00:27:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/06e03caf/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Mon Jun 12 20:06:44 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, no... The Delorean was supposed to be fast. The TI-99/4a was about > the slowest home computer ever. The Delorean was supposed to be fast, but wasn't. Sounds right to me! (: ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 12 20:03:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: <200006130031.RAA11737@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jun 12, 0 05:31:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/e1984db8/attachment.ksh From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Jun 12 20:26:50 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: wiring for MMJ cable to connect VT320 to VAX VLC Message-ID: <20000612202650.A29500@mrbill.net> I need to connect a VT320 to a VAXstation 4000-VLC; anybody know the correct wiring scheme (straight-thru, twisted, null-modem?) for the MMJ cable to do so? I dont have a MMJ cable handy so I'm gonna multilate a normal phone cable and some normal RJ11 heads.... bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 16:28:10 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: nearly classic digital DECpc XL 466dx2 In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200006130131.VAA13322@smtp13.bellglobal.com> From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 21:00:09 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > System: Apple /// > Car equivalent: Yugo > Reason: None required. Actually, an IBM type PC running MS-Windows (particularly the new cheap PC hardware) is more like a Yugo: cheap, poorly designed, an accident waiting to happen. > System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 > Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT > Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! Ford made more powerful cars than the mustang in the lats 1960's, such as the Shelby cobra and other cars with the 425 horsepower big-block engines in them. > System: IBM PC Jr. > Car equivalent: Edsel > Reason: See "Apple ///" The Edsel wasn't popular, but it was well designed; a very nice car and ahead of its time. Comparing this beautiful car to a PC Jr. is most unfair. > System: Apple Macintosh II > Car equivalent: Mack Truck > Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. An IBM 7090 is closer to a Mack truck... or, perhaps a Peterbilt. > System: Commodore Amiga > Car equivalent: Any Lexus > Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise > with its comparison. I wouldn't pay 50-cents for a Lexus, and if I won one as a prize, I'd sell it to someone gullible and buy a used Ford F250 truck. > System: Apple LISA > Car equivalent: Rolls Royce > Reason: Self-explanitory. A Rolls Royce (well, some of the older ones anyuway) is a thing of beauty. A PDP-11/70 with it's blinking lights, or a PERQ workstation which is far superior to that overrated LISA thing. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Jun 12 20:58:11 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series (more) References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <39459533.41387530@cornell.edu> Ok, the power supply is fine. I put back together everything and turned the thing on; the "pwr fail" led was lit ("uh oh" was going through my mind), but then I hit the "halt" and some other buttons in the front panel and that light went away. All buttons seem to be responsive. I really need to know where to plug a serial console to this thing... Tomorrow I'll try connecting the combination hd/tape drive that came with it. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 18:26:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Using DECmate III from terminal Message-ID: <007101bfd4d5$cda505d0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >>To do thiswould require modding the slushware so that a normal console >>requests are mapped to another port. > >Which is exactly what my suggestion to modify the address intialization >table in the ROM does. Yeah, you need to have an EPROM burner, but that >goes back to what the definition of "possible" is. Well read on. I did say that the existant trapping ports 03/04 (603x and 604x) that corospond to nominal PDP-8 console are also incomplete and cannot fall into the interrupt skip chain as a nominal TTY (m-series) module would. Sure revised slushware can fix some ills but, not all. Add to that the printer and COM ports are using devices that are also off the PDP-8 track. It really ends up that despite slushware the hardware is enough odd that standard PDP-8 code (aka OS/8 and programming handbook examples) do not work or have to be modifed from the source code side like OS/278 was. Impossible, no. Reasonable, I don't think so. I've played with the 6100 and 6120 enough to know it's just enough different from PDP-8 that it does make a difference with IO and most peripherals. Still, it's usability and perfomance as a hybrid is nothing to ignore. For those interested in programming the PDP-8 like 6120 it's a great platform to see how a simple machine is anything but. For my $.02 finding a tube (vr201 or any monochrome monitor) and a DEC keyboard are not that bug a challenge as they were widely used on rainbow, pro and terminals. Making the cable used is also not that hard. If there was any hack at all that is worth adding it's the real reset button I have on mine. Saves power cycling. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 12 18:14:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <007001bfd4d5$ccd532b0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >For anyone who misread my message and got instead that >I thought electricity had been deployed after 1928 >needs to go back to school and learn English all over >again. >> > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 >> > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote >> > location predated the deployment of electricity. >> > >> > -dq ;) In these days of the PC retrorevionist history of computers who knew? It's the comma splice, that did it! Because of how you constructed the sentence, the date, "1928" was juxtaposed between toshiba and deployment of electricity. I hope my grammer was suitably twisted. Seriously it really wasn't clear enough that there were two distinct though realted ideas there. Allison From west at tseinc.com Mon Jun 12 21:38:17 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <000901bfd4e0$6ee49460$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... > I have not been able to open the front panel > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > what's in the front card cage; Memory subsystem. > all I know is that there > are seven cards, four at the botton and three at the top. > In the back cage there are three jumper cards Jumper cards continue the interrupt priority chain in the backplane. If your OS is interrupt driven, you need the jumpers for open slots. If your OS isn't interrupt driven, you don't need these. > two 12821A disk > interfaces Disk interface, HP-IB variety ISTR >one "time base generator card" This card provides timing to the OS or any program that wants timed intervals. > and four > cards marked "BACI 12966A" where most of the control > I/O was apparently done. BACI boards are serial cards. > There are two big cards > below the main card cage, but I haven't got to them > yet. Motherboard and the one below that if I understand you right is firmware. > I also got several cables; two of them obviously > connected the disk interface cards to an HPIB > device (an HP 7946 tape drive also came in the lot), > while others went to the test rig, and yet another > seemed to go to a PC being used as a terminal. > Unfortunately, I don't know where the cables were > originally connected, as somebody had already pulled > all cables off the computer. Most typically in this system, the OS was genned for each card in a certain slot. If the card positions have been changed the OS generally won't boot. If you moved the cards, you have to regen the OS. Most likely the system console was the baci board that was lowest in the backplane, as this one would have the highest priority. If it was running RTE, ISTR there is way to boot the system that tells it that the configuration has changed and where the console and disk are. If this matches your situation, drop me an email and I'll look it up for you. > So, does anybody have any info on the power supply of this > thing so I can test it before applying power to the > cards? And, where did the console go in this machine? I have a fair amount of info on the E series, as do others on the list. Let me know if you need anything... Jay West From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:00:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > System : IBM PC + clones > Car : Ford > Reason : You find them everywhere. They do the job, but nothing particularly > nice about them. Tony, didn't you mean to say Chevy instead of Ford? Actually, when equipped with MS-Windows, a Yugo is a better comparison. As the owner of an older Mercury, a Ford product, I can in no way compare this to an IBM type PC; likewise for another Ford I drive on occasion: large, solidly built (was like a tank when new, about 26 years ago), reliable, smooth-riding, etc. I'm guessing that as a comparison, you're going by the small Fords sold in England, which can't compare to, let's say, a 1972 Mercury Grand Marquis, or a late model Crown Victoria, etc. > System : Fast Pentium-based PC-clone > Car : Turbocharged Ford with go-faster stripes, etc > Reason : It goes like the clappers, but underneath it's still the same > old machine. Nothing 'interesting' about it. See above. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:14:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have, indeed, dismantled > consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of > the shop). If the average consumer these days was reasonably intelligent, stores would be forced to have models on display that were open, or disassembled, so that one could see the insides, etc. I recall when stores typically had things like washing machine models on display with cases that were partially clear so that one could see the insides. At one Radio Shack, the cover was removed from a tuner that was on display. It wasn't at all unusual to see demo models on display in stores that were either partially disassembled or had see-through panels in them. I also recall seeing ads in magazines that showed the insides of things, in rather good detail, from consumer appliances like vacuum cleaners to hi-fi equipment, and had lines pointing to certain components, etc. These days, I guess the safest solution is to buy something, disassemble it thoroughly at home, then put it back together carefully and return it if you don't like what you discovered. If you had to break any "warranty void if opened" seals, and someone at the store notices this, just use that as the excuse for returning it, that someone (you don't have to say it was you!) tampered with it, and you don't want to risk buying another one from that store. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 22:31:27 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > choose, right?). Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my partner and I) assume full liability. A real-life story: Previously, we owned a trophy/awards/engraving shop. One day Mrs. Mom and her three children came in looking for a ten-dollar trophy. While I was taking her order, Junior (about ten years old) knocked a $300 crystal figurine off of a shelf, onto the floor, smashing it to bits. I asked the child to leave it alone, but as I was fetching a broom Mom told Junior to "clean up that mess" and he grabbed a handful of glass, severely cutting himself. End result: lawsuit filed, insurance carrier settled out of court, insurance company jacked up our premiums, and we're out a $300 piece of crystal. I couldn't complain, because that was the cheapest way out of the situation. So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in *my store*! Glen 0/0 From rdd at smart.net Mon Jun 12 22:42:50 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Craig Smith wrote: > Sounds like the oxide is crapped out and starting to come off [on your > heads!]. I ran across the same thing with a big box of HP > cassettes--only about 6 out of 50 or so were even remotely usable [and > they had been stored in the original storage boxes in reasonable > environmental conditions for the last 20 years]. Doesn't bode well for > the future of tape media. Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the safest solution. ...but storage of data onto multiple hard drives and backed up regularly onto two different types of modern media (e.g. 4mm and 8mm cartridges), and changing to a new type of media before what was being used becomes obsolete, is the safest bet. Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of deteriorating media that we need to use with our older computer systems. At this point, fortunately, many forms of media, although becoming expensive, such as 8" floppies, are still available. Has compaq stopped the manufacture of many forms of DEC media that were available in the recent past? Interestingly, I've been able to read DC300 cartridges from around 1982, yet, I've had a copy of one tape, copied onto a relatively new DC300XL cartriodge, go bad: the tape stuck together and then was torn apart. :-( -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 22:44:18 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: Hey Tony: > At some surplus shops, the owner was quite happy for me to pull cases > from machines, like PCs, before buying one to see what cards were in it. > But not to dismantle it any further. The owner provided the tools as well. The UK must be a paradise compared to the states. If I let customers use my tools I would never get any work done, due to a lack of tools! More than once someone's taken CD-ROM software, leaving the empty jewel case behind. Once someone even stole a mouse from a system we had on display . . . reached around the back and unplugged it . . . please do me a favor and advise me as to emigration requirements . . . ;>) Glen 0/0 From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 18:50:06 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: DECpc XL 466dx2 - almost classic. In-Reply-To: <000901bfd4e0$6ee49460$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <200006130352.XAA07225@smtp13.bellglobal.com> Excuse for the blank email. That is very strange because did send out this mesage already typed. Sigh! Got pentium 90 processor card or Alpha card for it? Model: 775ww Thanks! Can trade the IBM 90 XP parts for this one. Wizard From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jun 12 23:00:31 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act Message-ID: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> Hey Tony: > ARD : 'If any part is missing or damaged then I intend to return it here > and now for a cash refund under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act. This is really off-topic for the list so feel free to reply directly to my e-mail address -- I'd like to know your (and the group's) opinion: What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. Please advise. Glen 0/0 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Jun 12 23:20:33 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport Message-ID: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> This is semi-OT, since the IIsi has two years to go before it's on topic :-) For a Commodore nut, I sure seem to be doing a steady traffic in Apples. >From the same place I got the SE/30 and the IIgs ROM 3, I also picked up a IIsi. After some cursing because it was set up with At UnEase, I rigged a boot disk, trashed AE and started poking around. It's an '030 with 5MB RAM running System 7.1. I'm finally seeing value in the tuition I pay to Loma Linda University, since I basically went to the System Folder on all their System 7 Macs and grabbed all the extensions and control panels. Surprisingly, at least to me (the systems in question were 7.5 or later), this seemed to work EXCEPT for OpenTransport. PC Exchange purrs like a kitten and I'm able to handle ProDOS and DOS like a pro. (By the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be bootable?) But the IIsi simply refuses to mount OT. I downloaded 1.0.8 from the Apple support site and tried that, but it simply said it could not be installed on this particular model and gave no further explanation. The readme asserts that it will run on '030s and 7.1, though, for all the versions available from asu.info.apple.com. However, they appear to be updates, not installs (except for 1.0.8, the 1.1.x versions say that 1.1 must be installed already). Simply copying the libraries and the Shared Library Manager into the Extensions folder doesn't work. It just ignores them, and when I try to start the TCP/IP or AppleTalk control panels, it whines that OT is not running. Copying fresh ones from the "uninstallable" install disk doesn't do any good either. Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 23:25:14 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> Message-ID: > What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a > catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 12 23:29:08 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I normally soak ball races, etc in petrol (best) or paraffin (safer, but > not so good) to get the old lubricant out. The main ingredient of WD-40, Stoddard solvent, is a form of paraffin (kerosene). > I never run an 'unknown' motor or mechanical device without checking the > lubrication and probably replacing it. I remember the comment in the BRPE > service manual 'running this punch for 10 seconds without lubrication > will ruin it' or words to that effect. Oil/grease are a lot cheaper than > mechancial parts! The grease and oil on some of these punches/readers is creeping up on 40 years old. It just isn't any good anymore, even if it "looks OK". Most fans, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 00:04:51 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:39 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > System: Apple /// > > Car equivalent: Yugo > > Reason: None required. > > Actually, an IBM type PC running MS-Windows (particularly the new > cheap PC hardware) is more like a Yugo: cheap, poorly designed, an > accident waiting to happen. > > > System: Apple Macintosh SE/30 > > Car equivalent: 1967 Ford Mustang GT > > Reason: The computer could haul, & so could the car! > > Ford made more powerful cars than the mustang in the lats 1960's, such > as the Shelby cobra and other cars with the 425 horsepower big-block > engines in them. > > > System: IBM PC Jr. > > Car equivalent: Edsel > > Reason: See "Apple ///" > > The Edsel wasn't popular, but it was well designed; a very nice car > and ahead of its time. Comparing this beautiful car to a PC Jr. is > most unfair. A Mercury in a horse collar! - don > > System: Apple Macintosh II > > Car equivalent: Mack Truck > > Reason: Large computer, large truck, 'nuff said. > > An IBM 7090 is closer to a Mack truck... or, perhaps a Peterbilt. > > > System: Commodore Amiga > > Car equivalent: Any Lexus > > Reason: The Amiga had featues found on computers costing much more, likewise > > with its comparison. > > I wouldn't pay 50-cents for a Lexus, and if I won one as a prize, I'd > sell it to someone gullible and buy a used Ford F250 truck. > > > System: Apple LISA > > Car equivalent: Rolls Royce > > Reason: Self-explanitory. > > A Rolls Royce (well, some of the older ones anyuway) is a thing of beauty. > A PDP-11/70 with it's blinking lights, or a PERQ workstation which is > far superior to that overrated LISA thing. > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 > > From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 00:13:38 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > > choose, right?). > > Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent > enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the > States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for > insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work > -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my > partner and I) assume full liability. > > A real-life story: Previously, we owned a trophy/awards/engraving shop. One > day Mrs. Mom and her three children came in looking for a ten-dollar trophy. > While I was taking her order, Junior (about ten years old) knocked a $300 > crystal figurine off of a shelf, onto the floor, smashing it to bits. I > asked the child to leave it alone, but as I was fetching a broom Mom told > Junior to "clean up that mess" and he grabbed a handful of glass, severely > cutting himself. > > End result: lawsuit filed, insurance carrier settled out of court, insurance > company jacked up our premiums, and we're out a $300 piece of crystal. I > couldn't complain, because that was the cheapest way out of the situation. If a few, or more, insurance companies would not cop out on such cases - the mother was clearly culpable - this kind of crap would not go on! - don > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > *my store*! > > Glen > 0/0 > From paulrsm at ameritech.net Tue Jun 13 00:14:03 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport Message-ID: <20000613051709.QNSW2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport > Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:20 AM > > (By the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be bootable?) The boot sector, PRODOS, and a system program, usually BASIC.SYSTEM. Be careful transferring files from the Mac to ProDOS. Often the Mac will create a forked file which ProDOS 8 cannot handle. I use a program to make them ProDOS 8 compatible before the transfer. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 00:17:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: References: <3944CC5D.1E7D73EA@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: >Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps >periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the >safest solution. ...but storage of data onto multiple hard drives and >backed up regularly onto two different types of modern media (e.g. 4mm >and 8mm cartridges), and changing to a new type of media before what >was being used becomes obsolete, is the safest bet. 4mm and 8mm are nothing but *SHORT TERM* storage. Plus, while it's not big problem with 8mm from what I've seen, with 4mm you'd best know what model drive that 4mm was written on! DLT's might cost an arm and a leg, but they're worth it if you're archiving data, and even they need to be refreshed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:44:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000613054400.15062.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. In that regard, the IIci is only barely a '90s Mac. IIRC it came out +/- three months of when the SE/30 did. But I think all 68k-based Macs except very early and perhaps very late ones could handle 800K. Certainly all of the Quadras and Centrises that I've used had no problem with it, but I didn't ever have occasion to use the last few 68K models. Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:48:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000613054840.15093.qmail@brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > IIRC an EPP port gives you 8 data lines, which is no way enough to talk > to an 11/45 front panel (there are 18 data/address input switches, 18 EPP gets you eight data signals, a R/W* line, an address strobe, and a data strobe. It's equivalent to a multiplexed-address-and-data peripheral bus. So you can hang basically as many I/O signals off it as you're willing to wire up. There's even a signal that can be used as an interrupt input. The nice part is that the "SuperIO" sort of chipsets do all the handshaking for you, so if you want to write a 0x32 to EPP device register 0x2a, all you have to do is two write cycles. No bit-banging of the control lines or handshake inputs required. It's pretty handy. The only annoying part is the need for the EPP device to generate a transfer acknowledge signal. I would have been slightly happier if they spec'd a standard default cycle time, and required the peripheral to assert a wait signal if it couldn't complete the transfer that quickly. That would allow for very simple devices with less logic. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 00:52:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series In-Reply-To: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> (message from Carlos Murillo on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:04:40 -0400) References: <39454258.16D304DB@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20000613055231.15127.qmail@brouhaha.com> Carlos wrote about an HP 1000 E-series: > I have not been able to open the front panel > latch because I do not have the key, so I don't know > what's in the front card cage; One of the screws behind the front panel "flange", when removed, will cause the panel latch assembly to fall to the bottom of the machine, and the front panel to flop open. It is then a simple matter to remove the lock and take it to a locksmith to either get a key made or get it rekeyed. It's also very easy to reassemble. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 01:05:06 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (rdd@smart.net) References: Message-ID: <20000613060506.15231.qmail@brouhaha.com> R. D. Davis wrote: > Not at all... for long-term storage of those important files, perhaps > periodic backups to good-quality magtape (1/2" reel to reel) is the > safest solution. If you're looking for long-term archival storage, 1/2" magtape is NOT it. Even of tapes written to good quality media (e.g., the 3M Blackwatch 700 someone here praised a while back), I've found some that were written only seven years ago and stored in a suitably climate- controlled area that can't be read now. And others on cheap tape stored in a garage for 25 years that read fine. The longevity of the media is far too unpredictable. IMHO, the only thing that makes sense today is to write archives to CD-R (with a gold reflective layer, not the shoddy silver stuff), and plan to recopy it to newer (and possibly more modern) media within 20 years. Kodak did a study of their CD-R media (the white paper is available on their web site somewhere), and with accelerated aging tests found that they could *conservatively* rate their media for 100 year data retention. They did point out, however, that accelerated aging does not necessarily accurately model all failure mechansims. However, it should still be quite reasonable to expect a substantial portion of that, so even someone as paranoid about it as I am should still be able to expect 10-20 years. I also wouldn't trust any old cheapo CD-R media even if it does have a gold reflective layer. The name brand stuff is *significantly* better in terms of error rates. I'd probably write at least two different copies of any valuable data on two different name brands of CD-R media, and then verify them is several CD-ROM drives. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 01:11:11 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (rdd@smart.net) References: Message-ID: <20000613061111.15301.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote (about CD-R longevity): > However, it should still be quite > reasonable to expect a substantial portion of that, so even someone as > paranoid about it as I am should still be able to expect 10-20 years. I forgot to mention that since CD-R (used as CD-ROM format for data storage) has three levels of error correction, and any failure mechanisms are unlikely to result in an abrupt failure (yesterday the media was fine, and today it won't read at all), you can also assess the quality of the archive discs at any time. Of course, normally CD-ROM drives don't tell you about corrected errors, but the better ones have ways to issue SCSI (or ATAPI) commands to get this sort of information. So rather than blindly setting some future date to recopy the discs, you could check up on them every few years, and watch the correctable error counts. The error correction consists of three layers of very robust cross-interleaved Reed-Solomon codes, so it takes a very large number of closely positioned errors that would be individually correctable before you get an uncorrectable error. From richard at idcomm.com Tue Jun 13 01:28:00 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Wirin' up blinkenlights References: <20000613054840.15093.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <003401bfd500$86cd9700$56483cd1@winbook> Being somewhat more specific, the EPP gives you an Address Strobe, a Data Strobe, a Wait, an interupt, and eight data lines. It also gives you a Write line (indeed a R/w*) but what's important is that your software doesn't have to manipulate these strobes, since the hardware does it automatically. As a consequence, the timing is always as fast as your hardware can do the job, provided you've hooked up the handshakes properly. As with many standards, this one doesn't tell you what, exactly, that might be, and that's where you are right again. However, it's intended, if you can believe the many write-up's that make this claim, that it's capable of ISA bus speeds. That, in short, means two clock ticks at 8 MHz per transfer, if the sync between the handshake lines, strobe and wait, happens just so, else it will probably take three ticks. I've never seen one that fast, and I've only managed to build an interface that moves that fast when I have access to the bus clock, which ABSOLUTELY should be verboten, as the interface is supposed to work without that. If you're not concerned that the sync be exactly the same all the time, you can use a local oscillator of some harmonic of 8 MHz and use a counter to generate the signals you use synchronously with that, always temporally spaced the same amount due to the value that's loaded into the counter whenever a signal from the PC changes state. That will keep you at a minimal phase shift from what's going on in the machine MOST of the time. Now and then there will be a frame slip due to the difference in the oscillator rates, but that will be just about the same as if you had a PLL running, except the jitter will be much larger but much less frequent. Not all systems will like this approach as well as others, but if you're into synchronous state machines and want purely deterministic results, or as nearly so as you can have, then this is a, not THE, way to get there. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:48 PM Subject: Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > IIRC an EPP port gives you 8 data lines, which is no way enough to talk > > to an 11/45 front panel (there are 18 data/address input switches, 18 > > EPP gets you eight data signals, a R/W* line, an address strobe, and > a data strobe. It's equivalent to a multiplexed-address-and-data > peripheral bus. So you can hang basically as many I/O signals off it > as you're willing to wire up. > > There's even a signal that can be used as an interrupt input. > > The nice part is that the "SuperIO" sort of chipsets do all the handshaking > for you, so if you want to write a 0x32 to EPP device register 0x2a, all > you have to do is two write cycles. No bit-banging of the control lines > or handshake inputs required. > > It's pretty handy. The only annoying part is the need for the EPP device > to generate a transfer acknowledge signal. I would have been slightly > happier if they spec'd a standard default cycle time, and required the > peripheral to assert a wait signal if it couldn't complete the transfer > that quickly. That would allow for very simple devices with less logic. > From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 02:03:35 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query References: Message-ID: <3945DCC7.5A84D189@rdel.co.uk> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I > could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? I've got the documentation for this. A few years ago I converted some of it to PostScript so I could runoff more copies. I don't think I completed it, but I'll dig out what I've got and scan the rest. You can go a long way by just having the summary of all the SET commands, which change the device type, I/O formats, etc. Actually, now I think about it, the _real_ reason for converting it to PostScript was just to show off the 14-segment LED font I created. The diagrams originally appeared to be hand drawn. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 03:48:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and so changes the price. If the price is "fixed" and you "can" test, then you are wise to go ahead and test it. Bit of advice, NEVER plug something in before making at least some check for loose parts inside. I do the same thing right back to them though, make an offer on a pallet as it sits, then if they decide they want to peek in each box to make sure I don't get a goodie, I tell them fine, but I am looking too, and my offer may drop significantly, or I may only want a few of the systems. Another thing I point out all the time is that I "would have offered a lot more" but somebody damaged the case parts opening up the units. Most of the time I am better off buying items as "assumed" non working. OTOH I don't think I will EVER buy another hard drive "AS-IS" unless I am REAL sure it isn't tested bad goods. Any fairly dollar dense item like a hard drive being offered as-is, should be assumed "tested bad". That said, I keep a blade/phillips two ended screwdriver in my shirt pocket, ALL THE TIME (wife doesn't care for it a bit), and regularly take a "kit" with me in a double shoe box sized plastic tub (two pairs of gloves, leather and rubber, wet wipes, full set of screwdrivers including a BIG one, notebook, pen, long nose pliers, a couple of those jackknife type sets of Torx and allen keys, and three or four nut drivers in sizes too small for anything else. That is not so much my inspection kit (pocket screwdriver does that job) as my field tear it apart kit, dumpster divers tools also included are a couple cables (nothing hooks things like a RJ11 or DB9 when fishing). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:11:50 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <39423E00.1928.F1EB327@localhost> Message-ID: Passing this on, email them not me. ;) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1672647-156-960668504-mikeford=socal.rr.com@returns.onelist.com To: acs.list@jmug.org, abandonedcomputers@egroups.com From: "Dorothy J. Rowe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com; contact abandonedcomputers-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:23:05 -0700 Reply-To: abandonedcomputers@egroups.com Subject: [abandonedcomputers] what can I do with this old computer...? > I saw your posting on the helpline at an obsolete computer site... I >have an old Heath / Zenith 150 system that I built and would now like to >move out of my attic to make space. Its an original IBM PC clone that >runs with a NEC V20 chip at all of 8 MHZ. I also have all the original >documentation, software, modem, printer, etc... What can I do with >it ? I live in the L. A. area. thanx Alan Can anyone help here? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:07:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000613060506.15231.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (rdd@smart.net) Message-ID: >IMHO, the only thing that makes sense today is to write archives to CD-R >(with a gold reflective layer, not the shoddy silver stuff), and plan >to recopy it to newer (and possibly more modern) media within 20 years. Key point is to have a REAL plan with funds etc. earmarked on the 10 and 20 year plans for the data. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 03:57:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport In-Reply-To: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for >this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid >it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. Do it anyway, putting a Mac OS together bitwise is an exercise in unnecessary pain. OTOH you don't "really" need OT, just visits Jags FTP and get the old mac on the internet setup. http://www.jagshouse.com/classic.html From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 03:14:31 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. References: Message-ID: <3945ED67.AFB41ADD@rdel.co.uk> Mike Ford wrote: > > Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, > many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item > basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes > into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and > so changes the price. That'd be Schrodinger's Store? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 04:37:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data/video/movies/photos/oral history In-Reply-To: References: <200006061635.JAA25736@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: >There was a great documentary on The History Channel a few nights ago >about the role radar played in WWII, and made a compelling case that it is >the one thing that won the war. Seems like "most" of the history specials do that, which makes me think it was actually a much more chancy thing then many assume in hindsight. So many "pivotal" points, big mistakes, great strokes of luck, wise descisions, amazing that schools manage to make history suck, when it is SUCH a good story. A few pivotal points off the top of my head. Attack on Pearl Harbor, including fumbled declaration of war. Invasion of Soviet Union. Manhatten project, actually dropping bombs on Japan. Hitlers poor relations and distrust of military leadership. US stopping at Berlin and waiting for Soviets. Failure to adequately take advantage of submarines, V2, and jet technology. Chamberlines policy of appeasement. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 05:53:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <3945ED67.AFB41ADD@rdel.co.uk> References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> >> Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, >> many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item >> basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes >> into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and >> so changes the price. > >That'd be Schrodinger's Store? So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Jun 13 07:33:05 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Stag PP28 documentation query References: <3945DCC7.5A84D189@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <39462A01.D9F96D50@rdel.co.uk> Paul Williams wrote: > > "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > > > Speaking of EPROM burning, would anyone here happen to know where I > > could obtain documentation for a Stag model PP28 EPROM burner? > > I've got the documentation for this. Whoops. Having just been home and checked, I find that my programmer is a PP39. However, if you think the documentation for _that_ might be useful, let me know. From at258 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 07:49:57 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe it's called an implied warranty of merchantabilty, i.e. the item sold will perform the task for which it was designed. A washing machine will wash clothes, but may not mix peanut butter cookies. Bill, want to buy a large lot of partially mixed cookie dough? On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > > What is this "Sale of Goods Act?" (I knew the UK paradise had to come with a > > catch) Here in Florida a merchant doesn't have to give a refund, period. > > I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a > "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what > was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. > > If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home > and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor > and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 13 07:53:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm no lawyer, but I think there is something in the states called a > "Warranty of Merchantabilty". If something purchased clearly is not what > was claimed as sold, it can be "forcibly" returned. It's "Fitness for merchatability" and goes to product being saleable or as advertized is saleable condition. It has also been applied to product safety. > If a Florida dealer sells you a non-working computer, but you get it home > and you find it does not work because it is missing major parts (processor > and supply, for example), the dealer _has_ to take it back. Only if advertized as complete. Thrifts and other seconds hand businesses are bound differently and caveat emptor certainly applies. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 13 07:57:48 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF7@TEGNTSERVER> To anyone in the group considering this machine... I have the service manuals w/schematics for it (as well as a working example), so don't let fear of it being an oddball machine deter you from rescuing it. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ford [mailto:mikeford@socal.rr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 5:12 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Zenith 150 in Los Angeles > > > Passing this on, email them not me. ;) > > > X-eGroups-Return: > sentto-1672647-156-960668504-mikeford=socal.rr.com@returns.onelist.com > To: acs.list@jmug.org, abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > From: "Dorothy J. Rowe" > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com; contact > abandonedcomputers-owner@egroups.com > Delivered-To: mailing list abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > Precedence: bulk > List-Unsubscribe: > Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:23:05 -0700 > Reply-To: abandonedcomputers@egroups.com > Subject: [abandonedcomputers] what can I do with this old computer...? > > > I saw your posting on the helpline at an obsolete > computer site... I > >have an old Heath / Zenith 150 system that I built and would > now like to > >move out of my attic to make space. Its an original IBM PC > clone that > >runs with a NEC V20 chip at all of 8 MHZ. I also have all > the original > >documentation, software, modem, printer, etc... What > can I do with > >it ? I live in the L. A. area. thanx Alan > > Can anyone help here? > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Jun 13 08:14:16 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlights Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BADF8@TEGNTSERVER> > >> > I was aware that Toshiba was building facsimile machines in 1928 > >> > in Japan, but I didn't know the ability to send an image to a remote > >> > location predated the deployment of electricity. > >> > > >> > -dq > > ;) In these days of the PC retrorevionist history of computers who knew? > > It's the comma splice, that did it! Because of how you constructed the > sentence, the date, "1928" was juxtaposed between toshiba and > deployment of electricity. I hope my grammer was suitably twisted. > > Seriously it really wasn't clear enough that there were two distinct > though realted ideas there. If I read my sentence (quoted above) out of the context of the thread wherein the date 1700s had previously been stated, I'd see how that interpretation could occur. But in-context, I still don't see it. At any rate, it was an honest mistake, and multiple people made it, so I guess we should move on. Following rules of parallel construction isn't easy in hypertext! -dq From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 13 08:35:15 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <20000613002709.83682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000001bfd53c$36005a10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> This was very amusing thanks. I once overheard some internal guys (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. Maybe you heard this one? After the success of the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" John A. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 13 09:32:49 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000609225344.24e75966@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000613093249.2677b43e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Here we go again! At 11:27 PM 6/9/00 -0400, RD wrote: >On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Joe wrote: >> I picked up one of these today but some of the files on the hard drive >> are messed up. Can someone send me the Command.Com file for MS-DOS 2.11A? >> Also how do you get one of these to boot from the floppy drive and not the >> hard drive? > >Firstly, you did test the power supply before powering the system up, >didn't you? No, as a mattter of fact I didn't! Not that it's any of your business but the only thing that I really wanted was a card out of the computer. After I pulled the card, I proceeded to power everything up with no problems. The hard drive worked fine and a quick CHKDSK revealed no obvious problems. I used it for several hours with no problems but then tried to use TI's File Manager program that was installed on it and it wiped out part of the operating system. The only reason that I decided to bother with the computer is that it's a nice clean one and included the original monitor and keyboard so I thought I'd try to find it a home. But even if the power supply went up in smoke and the hard drive torn itself to ribbons it was still a good deal for me since the card is worth far more than the rest of the computer. > Also, before moving the system, did you check to see if >the hard disk was the type that needed to have it's heads parked, and >if so, park them, before moving the system? Not doing that can result >in filesystem damage. No shit, Sherlock! Read my comments above about why I bought it. Also please explain how you intend to power up a system and park the heads without moving it and with no power available within 500 feet. Oops, I forgot, you insist on checking the power supply first. How do you plan on opening it and testing the power supply without moving it? Again with no available AC power. Let me make a couple of things clear. First, Most of the stuff that I get is considered scrap. If I don't take it then it gets smashed and loaded on a container ship headed to China. That's not just speculation, I've helped to load and ship them. We've shipped three 40,000 pound loads in the last two weeks. So anything that I take at least gets a second chance at survival even if I don't follow every possible precaution about testing it. Second, the places that I get this stuff from have no AC power availble where the equipment is located. I can take the stuff or leave it but it's impossible to power it up and park the heads or test the power supply first. Here's a list of just SOME of the stuff that I've picked up in the last two weeks: SIX Cromemco Z2-D S-100 systems with dual floppy drives and hard drives, HP 9825B (loaded), FIVE various HP 9825 interfaces, HP 1000 A600 computer, HP 1000 E series computer, TWO HP 9895 dual 8" floppy drives, TWO HP 9885 single 8" floppy drives, two HP 987? printers, HP 7906 fixed drive, TWO HP 6940 Multiprogrammers (loaded) and a HP ?? Multiprogrammer Interface, TI Professional computer in like new condition with original monitor and keyboard and a National Instruments HP-IB card, and last night, a IBM AT with an 8" floppy drive controller card. That's in addition to OVER 320 memory SIMMS, numerous cards, keyboards and other bits and pieces. Does that sound like the kind of stuff that should be left as scrap because I can't test it first? Joe From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 13 09:38:08 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. References: Message-ID: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Mike Ford wrote: > >Mike Ford wrote: > >> > >> Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, > >> many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item > >> basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes > >> into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and > >> so changes the price. > > > >That'd be Schrodinger's Store? > > So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all > transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the > weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat > pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, > who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work > that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a > pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay > by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed) trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working ones at the "As is" price! Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors anyway) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 13 12:01:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: >> So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all >> transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the >> weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat >> pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss, >> who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work >> that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a >> pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay >> by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store. > >This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed) >trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own >apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working >ones at the "As is" price! > >Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now >Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors >anyway) Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake easy for a basically honest person to make. OTOH Apple II drives are pretty hard to break, how did you test them? Could it have just been incompatibility? Thats the second risk, customer tests your stuff pronounces it bad, but later on it turns out they (generic they, not you) didn't know beans and the stuff is just fine (which of course you find out after customer B buys it for parts and retests later). From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 12:18:22 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 09:01 13-06-2000 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, >don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake I don't know that it was a mistake, per se. Got a little story I'd like to share along the same lines. Back about 1994, a year or so after my mate and I first moved to Washington, I was in serious BASSW (Bay Area Surplus Store Withdrawal). To make matters worse, it was late fall, season-wise, and I was having serious trouble adapting to WA state's lower sunny-day count (translation: I was depressed and grouchy). So, I grabbed up the phone book and went digging. A new entry came to light: Specifically, the PC-FIXX Clearance Center, purveyor of Used Parts and Other Goodies. I already knew about PC-FIXX by reputation -- they specialized in repair and upgrade of PCs and, in some rare cases, "other" systems. I went up and had a look. They had a nice as-is alley, though most of the prices were inflated, but I still found my first EISA SCSI adapter for $5. The variety of stuff they had was pretty amazing, and I could tell that they were still in their "we-just-opened" chaos phase. The place went downhill from there, sadly. Prices went up, and selection went down. Then, about a year later, a miracle hit. The entire used-parts division was sold to two fellows, Mark Dabek and Steve Hess, who promptly renamed it RE-PC and rejuvenated the entire store. I continued to visit, and I kept asking about (and sometimes even finding) exotic hardware that practically no one else wanted -- EISA stuff, Sun systems, etc. My visits got to be so regular that not only did the owners and staff get to know me, and I them, but they started drawing on my knowledge and skills. Finally, when they started getting big loads of retired Sun stuff from a local service place, they became overwhelmed because of a lack of experience with SCSI hardware. I stepped in with an offer of help (I was well set up to test SCSI stuff at the time) which was gratefully and quickly accepted. I ended up testing over 100 drives over time, disk and tape alike. To this day, I have friends at both stores (Seattle and Tukwila), and I can say with confidence that I've known the owners for years. And what did I get out of all this? Excellent deals on some of those same drives, good friends, an OK to do a detailed inspection on anything I'm thinking of buying, good contacts in the other computer surplus areas (minis and such), and even a job when I most needed it after a layoff (yes, I actually worked for them for about five months). And all that just because I chose, at one depressed moment, not to give up on a place that was going downhill at the time. I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to reach out, even if you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once thought I was). So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're hunting for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:25:32 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport References: <200006130420.VAA04248@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20000613172038.56952.qmail@hotmail.com> 5MB is pretty tight to run 7.5 + Open Transport. I've got a Quadra 650 with 8MB DRAM, System 7.5.5, and Open Transport 1.1.2 (The most stable configuration) and the system takes up about 3.5MB, stripped down. I'd stick with classic networking and MacTCP 1.0.6 (Latest version I belive) If you could find a bit more RAM, kick the disk cache up to 768k. This won't really increase disk performance that much (System 7 disk cache sucks) but it will boost video speed, which uses DRAM as VRAM, and setting disk cache to 768k forces the video system to use the faster memory on SIMMs than the really slow on-board 1MB of DRAM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:20 AM Subject: Semi-OT: Mac IIsi and Open Transport > This is semi-OT, since the IIsi has two years to go before it's on topic :-) > > For a Commodore nut, I sure seem to be doing a steady traffic in Apples. > From the same place I got the SE/30 and the IIgs ROM 3, I also picked up a > IIsi. After some cursing because it was set up with At UnEase, I rigged a > boot disk, trashed AE and started poking around. > > It's an '030 with 5MB RAM running System 7.1. I'm finally seeing value in > the tuition I pay to Loma Linda University, since I basically went to the > System Folder on all their System 7 Macs and grabbed all the extensions and > control panels. Surprisingly, at least to me (the systems in question were > 7.5 or later), this seemed to work EXCEPT for OpenTransport. PC Exchange > purrs like a kitten and I'm able to handle ProDOS and DOS like a pro. (By > the way, what files does ProDOS 8 need to have on the disk for it to be > bootable?) But the IIsi simply refuses to mount OT. > > I downloaded 1.0.8 from the Apple support site and tried that, but it simply > said it could not be installed on this particular model and gave no further > explanation. The readme asserts that it will run on '030s and 7.1, though, > for all the versions available from asu.info.apple.com. However, they appear > to be updates, not installs (except for 1.0.8, the 1.1.x versions say that > 1.1 must be installed already). > > Simply copying the libraries and the Shared Library Manager into the > Extensions folder doesn't work. It just ignores them, and when I try to > start the TCP/IP or AppleTalk control panels, it whines that OT is not > running. Copying fresh ones from the "uninstallable" install disk doesn't > do any good either. > > Any suggestions? I'm really hoping to avoid having to make the monster (for > this poor thing) download of 7.5+ from the Apple support site if I can avoid > it. I don't mind System 7.1 at all, really. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- > From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 13 12:34:51 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just as valid today as it was then... VAXOLOGY There is a computer named VAX, Which is totally loaded with hacks, But the real piece of crap Is the overflow trap, Which an old-PC register lacks. It's got byte-string instructions galore, But the packed decimal format is poor, And the halfword length means That it isn't worth beans, Just like the 360's of yore. Oh, the branch mnemonics are losing, And the right to left numbers confusing, But the thing that's a pain, An efficiency drain, Is the miniscule page size they're using. Well, they give you lots of good stuff, And the address space size is enough, But you can't do an "exch", And it makes you say "bletch", When you see all the RSX cruft. (There's a bunch of other funny songs and stuff there, but I'll let you guys figure out how to get them...:-) From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:40:33 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Finds Message-ID: <20000613173538.93924.qmail@hotmail.com> Went to Chicago to visit relatives over the weekend but couldn't find any decent used computer stores. Maybe they are in the suburbs? Highlight of the trip was I stayed in a hotel, room 1337. ph33r hax0rs! Went to the local salvation army and picked up an Atari 850 peripherial expansion box, a Disney Sound Sources paralell port sound box (Funny) a few assorted cables, and most importantly, a book on various expansion bussees circa 1983. Covers S-100, Tandy, Multibus, TI/99, Apple II./III. Interesting stuff, and cool pictures of wacky niche machines (The Heathkit LSI-11 Computer, The KIM-1) Happy Hunting! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 12:41:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "RE: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 9:35) References: <000001bfd53c$36005a10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > This was very amusing thanks. > > I once overheard some internal guys > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 12:46:11 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: On Haggle: H19 Terminal W/Graphics option Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613104611.00962a90@pop.sttl.uswest.net> I just placed a low-hours H19 terminal, equipped with a Northwest Digital Systems "Graphics Plus" option (Tek 4010 emulation), up on Haggle (I refuse to deal with E-pay!) for those who may be interested in such. It's at: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202337688 Thanks for looking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Jun 13 12:51:12 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000701bfd55f$f764a1c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> >An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > Pete Well, they were salesmen making the statement . John A. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Jun 13 13:31:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jun 13, 2000 05:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <200006131831.NAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > > This was very amusing thanks. > > > > I once overheard some internal guys > > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > The Indy series had CPU upgrades available several times during its lifespan. We replaced CPU's in our Indys at least twice, becuase SGI gave us a great bargain on the upgrade price. I know the first time we upgraded was shortly after we purchased the units, so I wouldnt be surprised if the original CPU was extremely slow. -Lawrence LeMay From mark_k at iname.com Tue Jun 13 14:37:57 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Mac 800K floppy support (was Re: AppleTalk on the hoof) Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure it's just a ROM limitation, as the SE/30 uses the exact > > > same floppy drive as the later IIci and others which can't read or write > > > the older GCR-type disks. > > > > Huh? My IIci reads and writes 400K and 800K GCR disks with no problems > > whatsoever. As does my SE/30. > > Huh, indeed. I must have misremembered the list. PowerMacs certainly won't > do it, and I was pretty sure that most, if not all, of the '90s Macs > wouldn't either. I don't know where you got this misinformation from, but Power Macs do support 800K floppies (apart from recent models which don't have a floppy drive and perhaps the G3 models). Every Mac previous to the Power Macs also supports 800K floppies (apart from the very earliest ones which only had 400K drives). See the "Power Macintosh 7600 Series: Technical Specifications" at http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n19545 Other Technical Specifications documents on the TIL site for other Power Mac series computers also contain this text: * Internal Apple SuperDrive floppy disk drive -- Accepts high-density 1.4MB disks and 800K disks -- Reads, writes, and formats Macintosh, Windows, MS-DOS, OS/2, and ProDOS disks Also see http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n19545 This has a brief explanation on why access to 800K floppies is slower under newer Mac models. -- Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:37:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 12, 0 11:14:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/5413af8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:45:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <33.65e4227.2677050f@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 12, 0 11:31:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2165 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/70ffe08b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:55:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <99.60ec076.26770bdf@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 13, 0 00:00:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/ec6962b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 12:32:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: OT: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 12, 0 11:00:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/94cd0f4f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:00:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: OT Ranting (blather blather blather) Re: In defense of NASA: was Re: Wirin' up blinkenlightsr In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 13, 0 00:29:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/15fcdc11/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:12:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Jun 13, 0 00:48:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/e7a24c59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 13:32:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000613093249.2677b43e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 13, 0 09:32:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/ce82485d/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 13:45:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt > >The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just >as valid today as it was then... Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) Besides I've got to object to the following: > But you can't do an "exch", > And it makes you say "bletch", >When you see all the RSX cruft. $ exch EXCHANGE> exi $ Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 13 13:57:46 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: DG MicroNova Available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000613115746.009745c0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> Ran across a fellow a while back who had a DG MicroNova available. Don't know if he's still got it, but you can try: arnies@ix.netcom.com Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 13 13:55:19 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: New find: HP 1000 E series References: <3.0.2.32.20000613092456.00f1f040@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <39468397.1C17C375@cornell.edu> "Jay West" wrote: > > > In the back cage there are three jumper cards > > Jumper cards continue the interrupt priority chain in the backplane. If your > OS is interrupt driven, you need the jumpers for open slots. If your OS > isn't interrupt driven, you don't need these. hmmm.... then it is possible that some cards are missing because there are intermediate empty slots; here's the back cage configuration: Slot # card description ----------------------- 25 -empty- 24 BACI 12966A 23 Jumper 22 Jumper 21 BACI 12966A 20 BACI 12966A 17 BACI 12966A (note: no slots are labeled 19 or 18) 16 Jumper 15 Jumper 14 -empty- 13 -empty- 12 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB; why a second one?) 11 DISK INTFC 12821A (HPIB) 10 TIMEBASE GEN I was able to open the front panel (thanks, Eric) and found the following there: Slot # card description ----------------------- DCPC D.C.P.C. | Ribbon connector from front fingerpad to bckpln 111 MEMORY PROTECT 22-7931 112 MEM 22-2127 113 -empty- 114 -empty- . . . . 120 -empty- 121 256KW HSM 12749M | these three cards have their left front fingerpads 122 256KW HSM 12749M | joined by ribbon cable. Right front fingerpads 123 MEM CNTLR 2102E | not connected. And yes, the big board underneath everything is the mainboard with not a piggyback but a "piggytummy" smaller board attached to it. > Most typically in this system, the OS was genned for each card in a certain > slot. If the card positions have been changed the OS generally won't boot. > If you moved the cards, you have to regen the OS. Most likely the system > console was the baci board that was lowest in the backplane, as this one > would have the highest priority. If it was running RTE, ISTR there is way to > boot the system that tells it that the configuration has changed and where > the console and disk are. If this matches your situation, drop me an email > and I'll look it up for you. I did not move the cards around, but again, maybe some cards are missing. I don't know what OS the system was running. I guess that the first thing that I have to do now that I tested the power supply and verified that the machine (seems to) turn on, is to build a serial console cable for this. I have several cables that will fit the BACI boards, but the connectors at the other end have been cut off. Does anybody have the pin out for the finger pads in the front of the BACI boards? -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From red at bears.org Tue Jun 13 14:01:00 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: <20000613054400.15062.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 13 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > But I think all 68k-based Macs except very early and perhaps very late ones > could handle 800K. Certainly all of the Quadras and Centrises that I've used > had no problem with it, but I didn't ever have occasion to use the last > few 68K models. I wonder if it's specifically the 400k disks that there is a problem with? You wrote that your IIci worked fine with 400k disks, which is still more than I had thought, but I wonder if a Quadra would handle a 400k disk. My Mac collection jumps from a IIsi to a PM8500, with nothing in between, so I can't try it myself. ok r. From red at bears.org Tue Jun 13 14:07:55 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:40 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. Perhaps slightly more than a story. To bring the cost down on the Indy, they were available with or without secondary cache. All R4000 Indigos have secondary cache (1 MB of it, IIRC), and this resulted in the older R4000 Indigo being noticeably quicker than most of the least expensive Indys. Certainly the Indy was available in configurations which are a good deal quicker than the fastest Indigo (150 MHz R4400), though there are operations for which the Indigo's Elan graphics are quicker than the Indy's top-of-the-line XZ graphics... ok r. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 14:16:44 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: [snip] > But this works both ways... > > I go to your shop and buy a large/heavy . You refuse to let me > dismantle it and remove the PSU so that I can carry it out to my car in 2 > sections. As a result I injure myself. I then turn round and sue you > because you refused to let me move it in the way that I considered safe. > And if I can find a mention in the service manual that it's recomended to > remove the PSU before attempting to lift the machine then I think I'd be > almost certain to win. Uh, no, at least not in the US if the shop owner has half a brain. Even if you walk in off the street there's a notion of an FOB point; up to that point the seller is responsible for the item (including moving it) regardless of if title has changed hands and after which there is no responsibility. However, if I define FOB as being the place where it sits or I hand it to you I *do not* automatically grant you permission to do what you please with it on my premises, nor do I incur any liability for refusing to allow you to do so. For example, if I sell you a television you can't demand to drive a forklift into my shop to collect it, nor can you sit down and start taking it to bits. If you do, I tell you to leave. If you don't leave, it goes from civil to criminal and the cops haul you off. In short, purchasing something from me doesn't convey to you additional rights on my property, nor does my refusal to grant you those rights cause me to incur liability. [snip] > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets Act. [snip] > > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > > *my store*! > > Remind me that if I ever shop in your store and buy something that I > can't easily lift then _you're_ carrying it out to my car. You'd better make that clear before we close the deal, because otherwise I'm under no obligation to do so. > Once it's > there, not in your shop, then I'll take it to bits... Perfectly reasonable :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 14:50:55 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: See later remarks. > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I'd always have a toolkit with me to lock heads on a machine that I'd > > > purchased (after I've paid for it then it's mine to take to bits as I > > > choose, right?). > > > > Sure, but not in my store! How can I possibly know if you're competent > > enough not to get zapped? I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the > > States a lot of people are litigation-crazy. I pay a *fortune* for > > insurance, but the policy states that *no* customer can do any kind of work > > -- even using a word processor -- in my store. If we allow this, then we (my > > partner and I) assume full liability. > > But this works both ways... > > I go to your shop and buy a large/heavy . You refuse to let me > dismantle it and remove the PSU so that I can carry it out to my car in 2 > sections. As a result I injure myself. I then turn round and sue you > because you refused to let me move it in the way that I considered safe. > And if I can find a mention in the service manual that it's recomended to > remove the PSU before attempting to lift the machine then I think I'd be > almost certain to win. > > I even suspect I could win if, by you refusing to let me dismantle the > machine and lock heads, etc, then damage was caused to _my_ machine. It > doesn't matter that you sold it 'as is' -- as soon as you sold it it's > mine, and you probably can't stop me from treating it in a way to > preserve it. > > Note, I don't expect to be able to power things up. Plugging an unknown > machine into the mains is dangerous for the machine, for the person > handling it, and maybe for other people around it. I would fully > understand why shops would prevent this. > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > which is probably why surplus shops over here are often happy to let > customers take machines apart once they've bought them. It is my understanding that 'contingency fee' lawsuits are not permitted in the UK. If I am correct, that alone would account for a diminished number of suits. Funny how less worth while some things become when you have to put up your own money! - don > > So, yes, it's yours to dismantle, test, or smash to holy hell. But not in > > *my store*! > > Remind me that if I ever shop in your store and buy something that I > can't easily lift then _you're_ carrying it out to my car. Once it's > there, not in your shop, then I'll take it to bits... > > -tony > > From transit at lerctr.org Tue Jun 13 15:01:06 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) > > Besides I've got to object to the following: > > > But you can't do an "exch", > > And it makes you say "bletch", > >When you see all the RSX cruft. > > $ exch > EXCHANGE> exi > $ > > Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. Never used it, strictly Unix and VMS here ... From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 14:03:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > > Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the > top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets > Act. Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in the world as a result. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 13 15:43:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 13, 2000 12:03:27 PM Message-ID: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > > > Fortunately, in the UK we don't have that many daft liability lawsuits, > > > > Yes, this perversion of English tort law that we have is a bit over the > > top. Still, I'd rather live with that than with the UK Official Secrets > > Act. > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > the world as a result. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US take away our freedom! Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when the Revolution comes"? Zane From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jun 13 15:56:46 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Jun 13, 2000 01:43:55 PM Message-ID: <200006132056.OAA04293@calico.litterbox.com> > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? > > Zane *heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus Cybernetics company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first up against the wall when the revolution comes. Killing all the lawyers comes from Shakespeare. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Jun 13 16:05:38 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: <10006131841.ZM5503@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jun 13, 2000 05:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <20000613210553Z433869-15171+322@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > On Jun 13, 9:35, John Allain wrote: > > This was very amusing thanks. > > > > I once overheard some internal guys > > (another company, BTW) talking about SGI desktops. > > Maybe you heard this one? After the success of > > the SGI blue tower "Indigo" they came out with a > > desktop "Indy". It was noticeably slower, though > > making it: "The Indy, an Indigo without the go" > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > There is a good deal of truth to it. The original Indy was sold without a secondary cache, which resulted in a very slow machine. Even though it had a faster processor than the Indigo, it quite often ran much slower. The original Indy was designed to be a low end workstation to pull people into the SGI line. It was designed to go head-to-head with the low end Sun workstations. This was later discovered to be a mistake, and secondary cache and faster processors were later added. The Indy continued to evolve long after the original Indigo disappeared from SGI price books. A fairer comparison would be to the Indigo II, which evolved at basically the same pace as the Indy. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 13 16:18:01 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. Message-ID: >Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now >Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors >anyway) Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the deal, an education, don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake easy for a basically honest person to make. OTOH Apple II drives are pretty hard to break, --- I still have a broken one, can I fix it myself? the only thing I know is when I put a diskette in and try to read it it goes rattttatt and gets an error... :^( ---- how did you test them? ----- I connected them to my apple II and put in a known good diskette, swapping the diskette to the other drive to verify it was still known good... :^) ----- Could it have just been incompatibility? Thats the second risk, customer tests your stuff pronounces it bad, but later on it turns out they (generic they, not you) didn't know beans and the stuff is just fine (which of course you find out after customer B buys it for parts and retests later). From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 13 22:16:21 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Hello healyzh@aracnet.com On 13-Jun-00, you wrote: I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > take away our freedom! > > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? > > Zane Yes, we are made safer against our own mistakes (and stupidity), or are we? Nothing replaces good old common sense. Thre are many quotes about the legal profession, but Wm Shakespeare said it best: "First, let's kill all the lawyers" > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 6184 St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184 816-662-2612 or ghldbrd@ccp.com From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 15:27:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." It was Benjamin Franklin, and I know what you're talking about, but this is the totally wrong context. > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > take away our freedom! Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom from being sued when you cause injury? If we're going to talk about "freedom", let's at least put it in the proper context. > Isn't there another quote, this one in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > the Revolution comes"? Until you actually need one... I'm not defending them, I'm just being realistic. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Jun 13 16:30:41 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <017a01bfd57e$9fed7c40$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer > >*heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus Cybernetics >company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first up against the >wall when the revolution comes. Although I believe a later edition of the Guide that fell through a temporal vortex described the Marketing Department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as "a bunch of mindless jerks who _were_ the first up against the wall when the revolution came". Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? Mark "Ford Prefect" Gregory From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 16:36:47 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 13, 2000 11:45:41 am" Message-ID: <200006132136.RAA04190@bg-tc-ppp766.monmouth.com> > >from: http://www.abc.se/~jp/articles/computer/music/vax-song.txt > > > >The following made the rounds when the VAX was introduced...it is just > >as valid today as it was then... > > Hey Now! Some of us on this list are a bit fanatical about our VAXen! :^) > > Besides I've got to object to the following: > > > But you can't do an "exch", > > And it makes you say "bletch", > >When you see all the RSX cruft. > > $ exch > EXCHANGE> exi > $ > > Besides, what's wrong with RSX? It strikes me as a perfectly decent OS. > > Zane Well, it gave Dave Cutler a start in the OS business... Otherwise he'd still be at DuPont and Microsoft wouldn't have stolen WinNT. Perhaps then KL's would've been upgraded to faster hardware and the VAX/VMS OS would've never occurred. (I really like VAX/VMS though)... Perhaps there would've been the 11/68... the Jupiter machine... The 11/74... Bill Gates would've just been a Basic seller. Nah... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 15:14:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Jun 13, 0 12:16:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/fd438af9/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 13 17:05:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Minc-11 Front Panel Plates References: Message-ID: <3946B035.51B4B5D@rain.org> In trying to figure out exactly why I have these things, I couldn't come up with a good reason. There are three Minc-11 brackets and the front panel covers/plates available. If there is no interest here, I'll stick them on ebay Thursday. But until then, free to whoever needs them. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 13 17:09:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946B103.DE6E8978@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > > take away our freedom! > > Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately > deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom > from being sued when you cause injury? The word "legitimately" is being used far too freely! The other side of that "freedom to sue" is the damage it does to the "freedom to innovate." I have heard far too many people say they wouldn't support or get involved in X activity because of the possibility of lawsuits. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 17:16:53 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Let me see if I understand this : > > If I buy something from you, dismantle it (of my own free will) in your > shop and injure myself then I can sue you (and would probably win). If the practical definition of "win" is "obtain a financial settlement without admission of guilt on my part" then the answer is yes. It is generally far less expensive for an insurance company to simply write you a check and jack up my premiums than it is to litigate, even if they eventually prevail. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 17:16:12 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: "r. 'bear' stricklin" "Re: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 15:07) References: Message-ID: <10006132316.ZM6285@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 15:07, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > It's a nice story, but unfortunately, only a story. I should know: I have > > three Indigos and two Indys of my own, and manage about a hundred more at > > work. An (blue) Indy is faster than an (purple) Indigo. > > Perhaps slightly more than a story. To bring the cost down on the Indy, > they were available with or without secondary cache. All R4000 Indigos > have secondary cache (1 MB of it, IIRC), and this resulted in the older > R4000 Indigo being noticeably quicker than most of the least expensive > Indys. Only the very first Indys; SGI very quickly (a few months) moved from R4000 to 4400 and then 4600, which are the same speed as, or slightly faster than, the R4K Indigo. But yes, I'd forgotten about the original R4000PC Indy, and that would account for the story. > Certainly the Indy was available in configurations which are a good deal > quicker than the fastest Indigo (150 MHz R4400), though there are > operations for which the Indigo's Elan graphics are quicker than the > Indy's top-of-the-line XZ graphics... That's certainly true, so I'm glad that one of mine is an XS24 and another is an Elan, although the R5K might make a difference even then, or so I hear on comp.sys.sgi. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 13 17:25:42 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: If classic computers were cars... In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay "Re: If classic computers were cars..." (Jun 13, 13:31) References: <200006131831.NAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <10006132325.ZM6291@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 13:31, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The Indy series had CPU upgrades available several times during its lifespan. > We replaced CPU's in our Indys at least twice, becuase SGI gave us a great > bargain on the upgrade price. I know the first time we upgraded was > shortly after we purchased the units, so I wouldnt be surprised if the > original CPU was extremely slow. Yes, I think the first upgrade was very soon after the launch. Ours all came with 4400's or 4600's. Anyway, if you still have any R5000's going spare, I can find homes for a couple.... :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 13 17:50:01 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX poem I found lying around In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000613185001.A17968@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> But you can't do an "exch", [...] >$ exch >EXCHANGE> exi No, not *that* EXCH!!! John Wilson D Bit From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 13 17:45:47 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3946889C.33F9E798@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:03 PM 6/13/00 -0700, you wrote: >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in >the world as a result. > >Sellam Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that a country where such a belief is widespread is the most unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. The only safety in the US arising from its legal system is the job safety of lawyers. Sorry for the VERY OT post, but this one I had to reply to. carlos. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Jun 13 17:55:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 03:16:53PM -0700 References: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000613185531.B17968@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 03:16:53PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: >It is >generally far less expensive for an insurance company to simply >write you a check and jack up my premiums than it is to litigate, >even if they eventually prevail. It's cheaper in each individual case, but a big loss in the long run. They've really dug their own graves (and everyone else's too) by making frivolous lawsuits worthwhile for the lying scum who file them. They shouldn't have been so short-sighted when it started happening, and now it's too late. So now we're stuck with a lot of vendors who have this "pay me and then screw off" mentality. It's sickening. John Wilson D Bit From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 13 18:25:31 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <200006132043.NAA12259@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000613192531.009f0e10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that healyzh@aracnet.com may have mentioned these words: [snip] >> Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a >> rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in >> the world as a result. >> >> Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > >I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes >something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a >little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > >I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US >take away our freedom! IIRC, that would be Ben Franklin, and I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. In the U.S. right now, people who break the law have *more* civil rights than those who don't... that's a sorry state of affairs. I think the lawsuit that cracked me up the most was the woman tried suing a pharmaceutical company that made contraceptive jelly - due to the word "jelly" she was putting it on her toast in the morning and was totally stunned when she got pregnant. - She was suing the company for all the associated costs the child would incur (medical, clothing, food, etc.) over an 18-year period.... ...All because she was too stupid to read the damn directions. Dunno if she ever won, but personally (and I must add an IMHO) a little more Darwinism in cases like this could only be a good thing... Regards, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From foo at siconic.com Tue Jun 13 17:31:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > >the world as a result. > > Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, > you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. > > Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are > showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that > keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that > a country where such a belief is widespread is the most > unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead > of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. Carlos, have you ever even been out of the United States? Especially to third world countries? You'd know what I mean if you have. What you say has merit, however, you can't always expect other humans to be looking out for your well being. Especially when profit is involved. To take but one example, do you think cars would be as safe as they are today if manufacturers were not held liable for poor designs? Just something to think about. I'm not arguing this either way. I'm just reminding everyone that rarely is there ever a simple answer to these sorts of things. (There was a really funny skit on the old Saturday Night Live where Dan Akroyd would play this cheezy guy who owned a toy manufacturing company that produced such toys as Syringes in a Bag, and other toys containing razor blades, broken glass, etc.) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:39:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:07:01 -0800) References: (rdd@smart.net) Message-ID: <20000613233955.24218.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Key point is to have a REAL plan with funds etc. earmarked on the 10 and 20 > year plans for the data. Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. This subject came up on comp.arch recently, and I posted a message stating that if they aren't going to plan for data retention, I don't see why they should waste my tax dollars to collect the data in the first place. I was expecting to get flamed for that, but apparently no one must have strongly disagreed. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:45:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: AppleTalk on the hoof In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <20000613234518.24279.qmail@brouhaha.com> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > I wonder if it's specifically the 400k disks that there is a problem > with? You wrote that your IIci worked fine with 400k disks, which is still > more than I had thought, but I wonder if a Quadra would handle a 400k > disk. My Mac collection jumps from a IIsi to a PM8500, with nothing in > between, so I can't try it myself. AFAIK, all Macs that can deal with 800K can deal with 400K, at least as far as the physical format goes. Recent versions of system software have dropped support for the MFS file system. Normally 400K disks had MFS and 800K had HFS, although it was possible to force other combinations. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 18:47:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000613234746.24320.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony writes: > Let me see if I understand this : > > If I buy something from you, dismantle it (of my own free will) in your > shop and injure myself then I can sue you (and would probably win). > > If I buy something from you and you insist that I move it in a way that I > don't consider safe and that the manufacturer doesn't consider safe, and > injure myself, then I can't sue you. No, you can sue in the second case also. (Well, you can almost *always* sue. The real question is can you win.) From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 13 18:50:05 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds in Northern Michigan... In-Reply-To: <20000613185531.B17968@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> <3946B2D5.B887C58A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000613195005.009c4100@mail.30below.com> Went to the local garage sales this weekend, and actually got a couple rescues: 1) a Commie 1541-II disk drive. With data cable, no PS. No price, so I asked the lady what she wanted. She says $5.00. I get this really, really pained look on my face, she says $2.00... I now have one eye closed with a look of Ooooooh... still too much. She says $1.00 -- I hand over a buck and say "Thanks." Hate to say it, tho-- If she'd have stayed at $5.00, the drive would've stayed, too. (I think she knew that...) 2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this area: I found a copy of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386, with all docs, slightly beat up box but otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I say: "Will ya take 50 cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) Anywho, that'll give you an idea of the slim pickin's around my area... Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for $300.00 (firm). Happy Hunting, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 13 19:02:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Ohmygosh... A *few* finds in Northern Michigan... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000613195005.009c4100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > 2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this area: I found a copy > of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386, with all docs, slightly beat up > box but otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I say: "Will ya take 50 > cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) I have a CCdos 386 kit (release 3)and I've run it. DRI was on the right track and it was quite a bit better than MS-DOS. > Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for $300.00 (firm). I bet the reason there are a lot of them around is the price! Here thats a decent 486DX/66(or faster) that can run winders complete with tube. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 13 18:43:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 13, 0 12:03:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/2cea2091/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 19:47:41 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: run sys$system:exchange In-Reply-To: <20000613185001.A17968@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Jun 13, 2000 06:50:01 pm" Message-ID: <200006140047.UAA04499@bg-tc-ppp705.monmouth.com> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:45:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> But you can't do an "exch", > [...] > >$ exch > >EXCHANGE> exi > > No, not *that* EXCH!!! > > John Wilson > D Bit Bring back... $ MCR FLX FLX> (I once wrote a couple of hundred lines of menuing DCL to build the Vax 11/7x0 diagnostic disks from the VAXPAX tape (or disk directory) -- this was done during the 11/780 maintenance class while being introduced to commands like copy, dir, etc ... (DEC "trained" me on the Vax after three years doing Vax work and standby in NJ). The instructor wanted it submitted to diagnostic engineering -- I went back to NJ to finish the work off and get it cleaned up -- only to find Filex was replaced with Exchange (no... not MS Exchange -- DEC got screwed with that one later...) and my work was headed for oblivion. Oh well... I still want to type MCR SYE... to see an error log and MCR AUTHORIZE. Too bad I can't run VMS 3.6 on a VaxStation 3100. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Jun 13 19:51:15 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic In-Reply-To: <017a01bfd57e$9fed7c40$0200a8c0@marvin> from Mark Gregory at "Jun 13, 2000 03:30:41 pm" Message-ID: <200006140051.UAA04599@bg-tc-ppp705.monmouth.com> > Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? > > Mark "Ford Prefect" Gregory > Perhaps they should be Penril Sensitive Sunglasses. What ever happened to that old Modem vendor? I know Racal Vadic is still kind of around... in other businesses. Racal Interlan/Micom Interlan is kind of gone. Boy have a large number of the "biggies" bit the dust over the last 15 years. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Jun 13 20:02:27 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer References: Message-ID: <3946D9A3.EE7FCA9D@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > > rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > > the world as a result. > > Yes, but there's safety and safety, and I am not at all convinced that > all safety is a Good Thing. I think most of us here would agree with you. The notion that safety can be legislated or that massive awards will somehow result in "better" corporate behavior is silly. All that happens is that innovation is stifled. Aerospace is a great place to see the effects of this. In the '50s and 60's the US fielded new aircraft technology at a (comparatively) staggering rate; today we're so risk adverse that it takes decades to crank out a new design, and those designs are hardly the latest-and-greatest technology. Both of the JSF candidates have accurately been described as "ten year old technology". It's sad, really. There were a few references to the Hitchhiker's Guide in this thread, but I'd offer that they're haven't been the best choices. I nominate "When they start putting instructions on toothpicks it's time to leave the planet". -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 20:28:18 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000613233955.24218.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also decaying and partially unreadable. Basically, that is baloney. My Aunt, some sort of economic/urban planning big shot in a way I don't understand, says that it is untrue. In fact, she uses the old data from time to time. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Jun 13 20:44:13 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: <20000614014414Z434024-15170+557@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons > > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they > > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. > > Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people > also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also > decaying and partially unreadable. > The NASA one is definitely true. I was at a NASA workshop sometime around 1990 where this was discussed. One of the problems we discussed was actually using the data before it became unreadable. At that point it was estimated that only 5% of the data collected by NASA was ever read. There were several reasons stated for this: 1) NASA is very conservative in data collection, they always collected more data than they need. The main reason for this is the cost of sending out a probe, you don't want to miss something important and have send another one. 2) There is a considerable time delay in programming a probe. The probes can be programmed after launch, but due to the distances involved (and slow transmission rates), it can take a considerable length of time to send a new program. At that time (1990), the probes were programmed several weeks in advance. Again, if you see something interesting coming for the probe, there is no time to reprogram it, so you had better collect everything. 3) The volume of data was far too large for anyone to look at. NASA was looking for better ways to visualize the data, so more could be examined before it was lost. This is the main reason why I was at the workshop. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 20:45:30 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <20000613234746.24320.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > No, you can sue in the second case also. (Well, you can almost *always* > sue. The real question is can you win.) Very good point. In fact, it is the fault of the media and the public's tendency to overreact that has caused all of this lawsuit madness. Basically, it is not nearly as bad as everyone thinks. While at a horrid document scanning job once a few years back, I tackled a job that involved thousands of personal injury cases. The nature of the job had me reading (or skimming, really) the OCR'd results. Anyway, the first thing that struck me is that a huge number of cases are thrown out of court almost instantly. The second thing is that for the cases that won, damages tend to be the medical expenses and a small amount extra. In those thousands, I only saw _one_ case that resulted in a seven figure settlement, and _very_ few that were in the six figures. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 13 20:48:52 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:28:18 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000614014852.25506.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people > also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also > decaying and partially unreadable. In the case of NASA, I think it's true because some of the people I've heard it from are NASA employees. This doesn't constitute "proof", necessarily, but it seems somewhat credible. NASA collects one hell of a lot more data than the Census Bureau. In fact, they probably collect MANY hell of a lot mores. They still have data on 7-track tape. Well, actually they probably don't. But they do have the tapes. From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 13 22:39:39 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: Good Lord, Joe, where do you store it all??? Joe Rigdon wrote: > Here's a list of just SOME of the stuff that I've picked up in the last > two weeks: SIX Cromemco Z2-D S-100 systems with dual floppy drives and > hard drives, HP 9825B (loaded), FIVE various HP 9825 interfaces, HP 1000 > A600 computer, HP 1000 E series computer, TWO HP 9895 dual 8" floppy > drives, TWO HP 9885 single 8" floppy drives, two HP 987? printers, HP 7906 > fixed drive, TWO HP 6940 Multiprogrammers (loaded) and a HP ?? > Multiprogrammer Interface, TI Professional computer in like new condition > with original monitor and keyboard and a National Instruments HP-IB card, > and last night, a IBM AT with an 8" floppy drive controller card. That's > in addition to OVER 320 memory SIMMS, numerous cards, keyboards and other > bits and pieces. Does that sound like the kind of stuff that should be > left as scrap because I can't test it first? > > Joe From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 22:44:01 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Uh, no, at least not in the US if the shop owner has half a brain. Even > > if you walk in off the street there's a notion of an FOB point; up to > > that point the seller is responsible for the item (including moving it) > > regardless of if title has changed hands and after which there is no > > responsibility. However, if I define FOB as being the place where it > > sits or I hand it to you I *do not* automatically grant you permission > > to do what you please with it on my premises, nor do I incur any liability > > for refusing to allow you to do so. That certainly can't be true for all shops over here. > The USA is even more screwed up than I thought! Yes, in some ways it is, alas - it's not the same country that I remember growing up in a couple of decades ago, where people had more freedom of speech (no such thing as that political correctness lunacy) and didn't feel like they were living in a police state where spineless idiots were willing to trade freedom for safety, etc. Of course, one must remember that during the big wars (WWI and WWII), this nation's government was allowed to turn into a monster collecting more and more taxes and imposing more and more control over the lives of individuals; actually, the beginnings of that I recon were actually around the time of the Civil War. Who benefitted the most from WWII, if you think about it? Certain large multinational corporations in the U.S., Japan and Germany, etc., at the expense of lives and money stolen from taxpayers which went into their profits. Because politics here is such a screwed-up mess, it's typically the idiots with screwed-up brains who want to get involved in it, and with the help of the newspapers, and TV and radio news, more and more of which are owned by huge corporations, the idiot-puppets get elected, and, hence, the country gets more and more screwed up. Back when I was in grade school, and in some college classes as well, we were often taught, in history classes, etc. about the falls of ancient Greece and Rome, and how such things a corruption in government, etc. could cause the same thing here. Apparently few others were paying attention; people get so obsessed with little pet issues, that they don't look at the whole picture when they go to vote - plus, most people are apparently like sheep - they only want to vote for the candidate that they think is popular and will win, so, the polls (that some people believe the results of) also influence elections. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 22:48:53 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Yes, we are made safer against our own mistakes (and stupidity), or are we? > Nothing replaces good old common sense. > > Thre are many quotes about the legal profession, but Wm Shakespeare said it > best: > > "First, let's kill all the lawyers" Interestingly, consider how many of our "honorable" (snort) politicians are lawyers - quite a few of them! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 13 22:56:41 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Who benefitted the most from WWII, > if you think about it? The Jews and Chinese? > Because politics here is such a screwed-up mess, it's typically the [pointless rant snipped] How 'bout them old computers? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 13 23:01:54 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 12:03 PM 6/13/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a > >rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in > >the world as a result. > > > >Sellam > > Rather untrue by almost any metric of "safe". For starters, > you are in the country where no one is safe from idiotic lawsuits :-(. > > Second, if you actually believe such a statement, what you are > showing is that you now believe that it is the courts that > keep you safe, rather than yourself. I submit to you that > a country where such a belief is widespread is the most > unsafe, since people expect others to worry about safety instead > of taking the responsibility of worrying about safety themselves. > > The only safety in the US arising from its legal system is > the job safety of lawyers. Quite true. Job opportunities/security for lawyers is a self fulfilling prophecy. The simple fact that one exists requires another (or more) for 'self defense', ad infinitum! - don > Sorry for the VERY OT post, but this one I had to reply to. > > carlos. > > From rdd at smart.net Tue Jun 13 23:05:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, I'm going to be partially in agreement with Sellam Ismail on something! On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a saying that goes > > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier freedom for a > > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." > > It was Benjamin Franklin, and I know what you're talking about, but this > is the totally wrong context. > > > I'm responsible for my own safety, and all the stupid lawsuits in the US > > take away our freedom! > > Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately > deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom > from being sued when you cause injury? I agree; however, I think that with the help of some bad court decisions and certain pea-brained politicians, people are misusing this freedom. The problem is that there are laws that allow for liability where no reasonable person would think there should be an issue of liability. E.g., if someone injures themselves through their own stupidity, they shouldn't be able to sue someone else, such as the person on whose property the injury occured, whether the injured party is a child or not. E.g. if I claim to be knowledgeable about electonics, and get an electic shock from testing a power supply in someone's store, whom I didn't ask for information about how to do this safely from, or get misleading information about this from, then how can it be reasonable to put the responsibility on that other person? People need to accept responsibility for their own actions - that's what is reasonable. > > that goes something like, "Lawyers, the first ones up against the Wall when > > the Revolution comes"? > > Until you actually need one... Very true; there are some good ones out there who protect us when we need them, and to label them all as money-grubbing sheisters is not only unfair, but dangerous, as, while some of them are politicians, and some cause problems, some of them also help protect us from the damages caused by politicians, etc. Like any other group of people, they're all different; some good, some bad, some intelligent, some a few chips short of a working CPU. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Jun 13 23:15:43 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act Message-ID: <33.66a42fb.267860ef@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > In the UK, if you buy something from a shop then it has to be 'of > merchantable quality' -- it has to do the job that a reasonable person > would expect that sort of product to do (a computer has to compute, a TV > set has to receive currently-broadcast programmes, a packet of %food has > to be edible, etc). Also, if you ask a shop owner for a product to do a > particular job ('I want a computer to run this word processor package', > 'I want a glue to stick metal') then the product he sells you has to do > that job. Yes but . . . suppose a customer comes in with a software package which has the "System Requirements" listed in the documentation. Customer takes the system, finds out software won't run, even though the stated requirements are met, and returns the system. We replace the system, and the software still won't go. Then we discover that the software is buggy, or finicky. Does the merchant still owe the customer a refund, even though there is no real fault in the hardware? This happened to me, and it wasn't any fun . . . > You can sell a defective item if you point out the defects before sale > 'This computer is an ex-demonstration model, missing box, instructions > and mouse'. In that case I can't complain later that the mouse is > missing. But if, say, the floppy drive doesn't work then I have a right > to a refund. A refund? Or replacement of the defective drive, under warranty?? Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:40:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20000613184547.006c79e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >Carlos, have you ever even been out of the United States? Especially to >third world countries? You'd know what I mean if you have. Much of what is good here comes from a free press and the right to bear arms. And yes, I have been to the UK, and survived. ;) Canada was a bit scary, and Mexico a walk on coals. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:07:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> References: <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: > I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to reach out, >even if >you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once >thought I was). > > So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're >hunting >for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a >good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never >know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal. The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every place and every owner will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull, respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today setting up a test system for monitors, and then testing monitors (between digging in every pile I could reach), and generally I get very good treatment from them. This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself though, its more like ploughing the snow off the roads. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:50:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: source for cheap TK50s? In-Reply-To: <20000614014414Z434024-15170+557@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: from William Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: >> > Yes. VERY IMPORTANT! Yet almost noone bothers to do it. NASA has tons >> > (literally) of data that is decaying into worthlessness, because they >> > didn't have viable plans for long-term retention. >> >> Is this really true or just another legend? I ask because many people >> also say that the old data the Census Bereau keeps in digital form is also >> decaying and partially unreadable. >> > >The NASA one is definitely true. I was at a NASA workshop >sometime around 1990 where this was discussed. One of the >problems we discussed was actually using the data before it >became unreadable. At that point it was estimated that only >5% of the data collected by NASA was ever read. There were >several reasons stated for this: > >1) NASA is very conservative in data collection, they always > collected more data than they need. The main reason for > this is the cost of sending out a probe, you don't want > to miss something important and have send another one. This is a foggy memory from the a trip to Houston, but isn't a lot of older data just printed text on paper? From kenn at bluetree.ie Wed Jun 14 05:39:43 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: VAX 6540 (?) available in Cork, Ireland Message-ID: I just heard about this: > It's a 6540 I think. About 4ft wide, 3ft deep and 6ft high. 3-phase > power, plus tape unit, console, etc. BIG motherfucker. You'd need > to find transport... If you're interested, I'll give you this guy's email address off-list. Later, Kenn From djg at drs-esg.com Wed Jun 14 06:48:36 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Part datasheets Message-ID: <200006141148.HAA22355@drs-esg.com> From djg at drs-esg.com Wed Jun 14 06:49:29 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: Part datasheets try 2 Message-ID: <200006141149.HAA22364@drs-esg.com> The former pay IHS Caps datasheet service is now available for free from http://www.freetradezone.com. It has a good collection of datasheets for obsolete components not available from manufacturer sites. You do have to register and enter a company name. I used the pay CD based system when my work had it but have not done much with the online version. David Gesswein From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:19:53 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:41 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE04@TEGNTSERVER> > I forget the actual words, and who said it, but there is a > saying that goes > something like this. "Those who are willing to trade thier > freedom for a > little safety deserve neither freedom OR safety." Ben Franklin: The man who would trade a bit of liberty for a bit of security deserves neither liberty nor security Probably still not exactly correct, it may have been "a little" instead of "a bit". Only certain source I can think of is the musical "1776" and they probably mangled the original line to make it more stage-worthy. -doug q (who would trade all the security he has for more liberty) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:20:27 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE05@TEGNTSERVER> > *heh* I think it was the marketing department at the Cirrus > Cybernetics > company who were a bunch of mindless jerks who would be first > up against the > wall when the revolution comes. > > Killing all the lawyers comes from Shakespeare. Richard III From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:23:33 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE06@TEGNTSERVER> > Although I believe a later edition of the Guide that fell through a > temporal vortex described the Marketing Department of the Sirius > Cybernetics Corporation as "a bunch of mindless jerks who > _were_ the first > up against the wall when the revolution came". > > Now where did I leave my Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? Right next to your SEP field generator.... :-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 07:32:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE07@TEGNTSERVER> > What ever happened to that old Modem vendor? > I know Racal Vadic is still kind of around... in other businesses. > Racal Interlan/Micom Interlan is kind of gone. > > Boy have a large number of the "biggies" bit the dust over the last 15 > years. Did Anderson-Jacobsen survive beyond the acoustic coupler days? I have an old unit that could go up to 600 baud using Bell 103a standards, although it was difficult to find anyone who would support 600 baud using Bell 103a; 600 baud was usually Bell 202? (whatever the standard was for 1200 baud). -dq From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 14 08:03:33 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Fwd: RT-11 capable systems in Ann Arbor, MI Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000614080246.00b86690@pc> >X-Sender: jfmjfm@srvr5.engin.umich.edu (Unverified) >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:14:36 -0400 >To: microscopy@sparc5.microscopy.com >From: "John F. Mansfield" > >Subject: Surplus Equipment going cheap (not free). > >I have the following surplus equipment that is destined for the >recycle dumpster if no-one is interested. > >1. Two Tracor TN5500 XEDS systems. > a. One system has a 30Meg hard disk drive, two 5.25 Syquest >removable hard disks (both failed) and two floppy disks one 5.25" and >one 8". There are actually two 5.25" disks and two 8" disks in a >separate subsystem, but the hard ware only supports two floppies at >one time and so we have one of each set up. A standard Tracor >keyboard with keypad and monitor is supplied. The system does not >have a printer. We modified it so it would run without a printer and >if we need print out we have a couple of switch boxes that directs >the print out to a Mac (PC can be substituted). We also have the HP >plot software and this is directed to a program on the Mac that can >then send the plot to a laser printer or can save it for pasting into >word processing documents. >The system has the imaging package that will allow the computer to >control the microscope (it is setup for a JEOL 2000FX) and record >STEM and SEM images and XEDS maps. The software includes SMTF and >SQMTF. The system has an almost new refurbished light element >detector (detects down to C). System also has a license for RT-11, >the DEC operating system and it can run an FTP server for removal of >spectra and images to a remote computer. Make an offer. > > b. The second system is floppy based and also has imaging >which is setup for an SEM whose manufacturer evades my memory, but if >anyone is interested I will obviously find out for you. This system >has a Be window XEDS detector with it. Make an offer. > >2. Liquid nitrogen cold stage for JEOL 2000 FX Gatan double tilt (old >model 613 upgraded to double tilt). Sample airlock pumps dewar jacket. >Make an offer. > >3. A Perkin Elmer 5400 data acquisition computer (6809 chip running IDRIS). > >I also have a Be window XEDS detector that is non functional that >fits the high angle port of a JEOL 2000FX > >In each case the buyer pays shipping. > >-- > >Dr. John Mansfield CPhys MInstP >North Campus Electron Microbeam Analysis Laboratory >417 SRB, University of Michigan >2455 Hayward, Ann Arbor MI 48109-2143 >Phone: (734) 936-3352 FAX (734) 763-2282 >Cellular Phone: (734) 358-7555 >(Leaving a phone message at 936-3352 is preferable to 358-7555) >Email: jfmjfm@engin.umich.edu >URL: http://emalwww.engin.umich.edu/people/jfmjfm/jfmjfm.html >Location: Lat. 42? 16' 48" Long. 83? 43' 48" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jun 14 10:02:32 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Looking inside before you buy etc. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000613101822.009502d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net> <39464750.83DB3DD6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000614080232.0098e100@pop.sttl.uswest.net> At 01:07 14-06-2000 -0800, you wrote: >The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every place and every owner >will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on >different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull, >respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to >time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today Couldn't have said it better. I still have a good working relationship with some of the folks at Weird Stuff, despite the physical distance, as does a friend of mine who's local to them. >This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself though, its more >like ploughing the snow off the roads. The effort is usually worth it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 14 10:49:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: To get back On Topic In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE07@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Did Anderson-Jacobsen survive beyond the acoustic coupler days? Very much so. I've got many AJ modems in my collection, going up to 2400 bps. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 14 12:30:03 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > Much of what is good here comes from a free press and the right to bear arms. Well, we did have a free press at one point in time, however, with even small local town newspapers being gobbled up by big city newspapers that are owned by large media conglomerates that are well intertwined with large multinational corporations and the influential corruption addicts and other goings on in Washington, D.C., competent reporting is generally intermixed with carefully contrived propaganda, created for the purpose of playing with people's minds in order to move us closer towards a totalitatian one world government. If the minds of so many people weren't so focused on what I call "distractionist topics," which are frequently in the news and topics of debate between politicians, such as education funding, abortion, various political sex scandals, race-related issues, politically correct pettiness, etc., which serve as detractions from other issues with further reaching implications, such as the dangers of increasing federal government, as well as state and local government - often under the influence of the federal government, control over our day to day lives, there would probably be a strong revolt. An interesting quotation: [We] should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when corruption in this as in the country from which we derive our origin will have seized the heads of government and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic and will be alike influenced by the same causes. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIII, 1782. ME 2:164 What too many people overlook is the main reason for the right to bear arms. It's not so just for protection from criminals, but for our own protection against a government that restricts our freedom; I'm sure that many of you, hopefully, are familiar with the writings of Thomas Jefferson pertaining to this, such as the following: What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, freedom in the world. Thoughts? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 12:28:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: *Way* OT: Sale of Goods Act In-Reply-To: <33.66a42fb.267860ef@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 14, 0 00:15:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2654 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/38fc30ad/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Wed Jun 14 12:52:07 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what > role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, > freedom in the world. Thoughts? Dude, it's egregiously off-topic. This is not the libertarian list, it is the classic computer list. Give it a rest. ok r. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 13:21:56 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation Message-ID: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> Despite the fact that every term program under the sun seems to support Tek 4014/5, I cannot find a description of the control sequences anywhere (just a reference to the termcap entry, but I want the *graphics* control sequences, not the terminal ones). Does anyone know where I might find a listing of them? Until then, I'll use GNUplot ;-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Eat healthy, stay fit, DIE ANYWAY! ----------------------------------------- From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jun 14 12:49:02 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO References: fromWilliam Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" Message-ID: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, Anybody knows, if they still are available ? If yes, where ? cheers, emanuel From ss at allegro.com Wed Jun 14 13:38:45 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 power suppply question Message-ID: <39476EC5.31003.EAC2824@localhost> Hi, I recently found a Lexmark "Lexbook MB10" ... with no docs, no power supply. The back of the computer says the power supply should be 12 V DC, but has no mention of the polarity! Does anyone have this oddball computer, and can they tell me the polarity of the adapter, please? BTW, this Lexbook looks like IBM's answer to the HP Omnibook 425. In web searching, I found several references to other Lexbook models (including the SE10), but none to the MB10. Lexmark's web site was an example of corporate stonewalling (not quite the word I want): since it's obsolete, they have no information on it, and don't even admit (via their search engine) that it might have once existed! Altavista found a single Lexmark.com web page about "Y2K compliance" ...which basically says: hey, it's obsolete, we didn't test it, buy something newer. thanks, Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jun 14 13:53:51 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 References: <20000611220350.A2812@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00ff01bfd631$e31e2b50$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: sjm To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 23:03 Subject: Looking for Ultrix 4.4 > Hey teen gang, ? ;-) > Does anyone have an Ultrix 4.4 (RISC) distribution CD-ROM they'd like > to part with, or make a copy of? I have a license but no media, > and I'd prefer not to try to deal with the Compaq Empire if I can > avoid it. There is no way i know of, to still get a Ultrix. BTW, the last one was 4.5. > (P.P.S. - Yes, I know NetBSD is better, and supports DECstations. > But I want Ultrix for reasons far beyond the understanding of > mortal men.) Anyway, look for the Y2K CD also. THIS one is harder to find. And with 4.4 or 4.5, you can't even adjust your date today ... cheers, emanuel From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 14 14:07:21 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO In-Reply-To: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> (emu@ecubics.com) References: fromWilliam Donzelli at "Jun 13, 2000 09:28:18 pm" <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <20000614190721.1659.qmail@brouhaha.com> "emanuel stiebler" asks: > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? Anchor Electronics in Santa Clara, CA. NOT the one in Biloxi, MS. I haven't found a web page for them. Check with directory assistance. In general you may have better luck searching for the 82C55, which is still being made. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Jun 14 14:15:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAE0F@TEGNTSERVER> I'd be shocked if you can't get them from Radio Shack. -dq p.s. I got at least one laying around but they're OOP (out of production) I think I'll have to hang onto it. > -----Original Message----- > From: emanuel stiebler [mailto:emu@ecubics.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:49 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: 8255 PIO > > > Hi, > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? > > cheers, > emanuel > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 14 14:40:37 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO Message-ID: <000614154037.202016dd@trailing-edge.com> >Anybody knows, if they still are available ? >If yes, where ? Anyplace that sells older Intel chips certainly has them. Jameco, in particular, has both the "regular" and CMOS versions, and with a choice of speed grades: 52724 8255 IC,MPU,8255(D71055C NEC) 3.95 3.59 _____ 52732 8255A-5 IC,MPU,8255A-5(8255AC-2 NEC) 4.95 4.49 _____ 52417 82C55A IC,MPU,82C55A (MB89255A) 3.95 3.59 _____ 52425 82C55A-5 IC,MPU,82C55A-5 3.95 3.59 _____ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 14 14:41:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: 8255 PIO In-Reply-To: <00d401bfd62f$1aceca30$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi, > Anybody knows, if they still are available ? > If yes, where ? Yes, and JDR for one. Many others I'm sure, it was used as a XT keyboard interface so there are XT baord you can likely just unplug it from. How many do you need? FYI: the 8255-5 is the same part (faster with a bit more drive). Allison From foo at siconic.com Wed Jun 14 13:45:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Totally and entirely off-topic Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what > role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, > freedom in the world. Thoughts? Please. This is as far off the topic of classic computers as you can get, no matter how you try to spin it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rdd at smart.net Wed Jun 14 14:54:35 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Despite the fact that every term program under the sun seems to support > Tek 4014/5, I cannot find a description of the control sequences anywhere > (just a reference to the termcap entry, but I want the *graphics* control > sequences, not the terminal ones). Does anyone know where I might find a > listing of them? Yes. :-) I just dug up my Tektronix 4114 Display Terminal Operator's Manual and found the following beginning on page C-4: List of Escape Sequences; each escape sequence is listed alongside it's corresponding command and setup command. For example: Ec(I)(A) Set-GIN-Cursor None . . . Ec(L)(X) Set-Dialog-Area-Position DAPOSITION Is that what you're looking for? If so, e-mail me your snail-mail address and I'll send you photocopies of these escape sequences. BTW, Does anyone on this list have, or know where I can obtain, service data for my Tektronix model 4014 terminal? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jun 14 14:59:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 In-Reply-To: <14658.27253.784664.110034@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: ASCII e-mail vs iso-8859-1 (R. D. Davis) Message-ID: <3948002A.7403.1A8011BD@localhost> > > Doesn't it seem a little strange that people who are interested in > > computer preservation are sending iso-8859-1 character set messages > > instead of normal ASCII to a mailing list where others are likely to > > be using older systems to read their e-mail? Once ASCII goes away, > > then we've all got problems that would make our older systems very > > much incompatible with everything else and less useful. Is not plain > > old ASCII one standard that we should value and do our best to keep > > from going out of use? > I agree 100%. Though I must point out that it has nothing at all to > do with "older" or "newer" systems...it's primarily a "windows" or > "non-windows" issue. Well, not exactly - Windows IS NOT using 8859-1 - and I woundn't considere the usage of 8859 as something to harm classic system users nor users of non win sytems - in fact, 8859 is only in use among Unix stuff, and 8859 is probably the most 'classic friendly' way of an extended 8-Bit coding since it leaves the 'high bit set' control codes (80-9F) unasigned. 8859 is eventualy one of the few standards where still people with real knowledge have been involved and tried to create the least harmfull solution. And to avoide some misconceptions, RTF, HTML, or whatever fancy formating has _nothing_ to do with 8859 (the code is not responsible for beeing used by some other stuff :). 8859-x is todays ASCII. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 15:04:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: <200006141821.LAA06260@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 14, 0 11:21:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2021 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/7c0decbc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 14 15:10:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 14, 0 03:54:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000614/d2e001e5/attachment.ksh From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jun 14 15:19:15 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: OT Vast amounts of NASA data in weird formats (Long) Message-ID: Now that the subject line somewhat matches the topic. NASA and other unnamed government agencies collect "LOTS" of data. They have lots of tapes, some ASCII card images on tape, and other raw formats. Now when a project is winding down do you think anyone "cares"/spends money to transfer any data into newer formats. The original software that was written probably handles the data and works OK. I understand that lots of LANDSAT data has cloud cover obscuring it. Do you save even the "apparently" worthless stuff? The first thing any engineer/programmer tries is to pack the data onto the tape as efficiently as possible. 12 bit pixels get stored 2 pixels in every 3 bytes. Everybody used different methods to handle uneven numbers of pixels, including padding, and truncation. How do you decide how the data was stored. I'm sure the paper that documents the data format is detached from the physical tape. The short answer is that when data is collected no one has any idea of what eventually may be done with the data. They only expend as much time, energy, and money as the initial project seems to justify. I will try and find my copy of a GAO report that I purchased on the magnitude of the data storage/retention problem. They had pictures of doors in the data vault being held open by stacks of tapes. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu Data Hound extraordinary, I'm burying my floppy disks for posterity. Maybe we should use gold floppy disks will not oxidize and absorb moisture in any short term interval. From ss at allegro.com Wed Jun 14 15:26:13 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Lexmark Lexbook MB10 power suppply question In-Reply-To: <39476EC5.31003.EAC2824@localhost> Message-ID: <394787F5.4041.F0E9092@localhost> Re: > I recently found a Lexmark "Lexbook MB10" ... with > Lexmark's web site was an example of corporate stonewalling I'd posted a note to several addresses within lexmark.com, asking for information about the Lexbook MB10 last night. Today, I got an email from someone there, offering me a free adapter! Unfortunately, it was an adapter for a Lexbook SE10 (aka ThinkPad 500), which appears to be a different computer (and, one using different voltage :( A ThinkPad 500 is 7.23" deep, my MB10 is 6.5" deep (and has only a 9 pin serial, and 25 pin parallel connector on the back). Oh well... Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 14 16:14:21 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 14, 2000 09:04:35 PM Message-ID: <200006142114.OAA04639@shell1.aracnet.com> OK, for all I know everyone that is interested in such stuff already knows about this. However, I just ran across this, and it sounds like something of interest to some of the list members (basically because it's apparently software for 6809 SWTP boxes). Remember I've no idea what this stuff is. Zane http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/index.html "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive UniFLEX'09 for SWTP & Gimix - Plus ALL Products Ever Developed! The UniFLEX'09 Archive represents ALL known products that were developed / or adapted by Technical Systems Consultants, Inc. (TSC), from late in 1979 through to 1989 when, at that time, the Company and UniFLEX O/S were sold to an "investor." The 6809 versions were NOT part of that fateful episode - so, they were put away in a storage room and eventually lost. " From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jun 14 16:38:18 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:42 2005 Subject: Tek 4014/5 emulation In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 14, 0 09:04:35 pm" Message-ID: <200006142138.OAA06344@oa.ptloma.edu> ::OK, to get it into graphics mode you send it a GS (Group Separator, 0x1d) ::character. The first vector drawn after entering graphics mode will be ::dark (not displayed, a move rather than a draw)_unless_ the GS is ::immediately followed by a BEL (Bell, 0x07) character. If it is, then the ::first vector is drawn. All subsequent ve