From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:36:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:22:32 2005 Subject: Any stories of Dayton? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020520163831.0111f910@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520150135.04bffa30@enigma> <20020520183013.42902.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101023615.4aaf06e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:38 PM 5/20/02 -0400, Roger wrote: >Rumor has it that Dan Veeneman may have mentioned these words: >>At 11:30 AM 5/20/02 -0700, Loboyko Steve wrote: > >>>I went, and I was somewhat disappointed. > >[snip] > >>Classic computer hardware, especially the less-common stuff, >>was scarce this year. > >[snip] > >>Bought: > >[snippage of purchased {purloned??? ;-) } stuff...] > >So what you're trying to say is, you got there first, and bought everything >CC-ish out??? ;-) I keep telling you guys that you MUST get there early!!!!! If you wait till opening time to get there then you won't find much, If you're one of those that waits to after lunch to show up then you're wasting your time! If you really want to find stuff, Register as a dealer and go in when they open for dealer setup. I FREQUENTLY leave home at 3AM to be near the front of the dealer line waiting to get in. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:55:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:22:33 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <001801c20046$0db6f500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101025515.4c47fe04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:33 PM 5/20/02 -0600, Dick wrote: >Well ... people who REALLY want to see an old-time (REAL) machine can always >go to a local junk yard and see the rusting hulks in the yard. They hang >around a long time because it's so unprofitable to disassemble the racks, >since there are mixes of plastics, aluminum, and steel, which means labor's >required to make 'em useful. They're not terribly exciting to watch, since >they don't show much evidence of the stuff going on inside. I make a point of looking at the back of as many PCs as possible. I find lots of intersting stuff just by looking for unusual connectors. I picked up a dual head Number Nine video card, HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards in the past week by doing that. Speaking of rusting hulks, Mike was here and spotted two OLD!!!! Bendix computers at one place that we visited. He's going to try buy them. I don't know what they are but they have paper tape readers and a programmers panels on them. Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 03:01:44 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:22:33 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101030144.4aaf62d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:44 PM 5/20/02 -0600, you wrote: >Is the classic computer sources finally drying up to become E-bay >collector items only so most people can't see a real machine anymore? Tell me, how much time did you honestly spend out looking for classic computers within the last week???? I don't mean time spend browsing E-bay or looking at messages on CC list or news-groups. I mean time outside in a scrap yard or some place similar. I don't know you so I can't say how you operate but it's been my experience that most people that complain about not being able to find anything aren't really looking. FWIW I spent 1/2 day one day and about an hour another and found three good PCs; one is a rack mount and besides being usefull for trade it has a loaded Number Nine dual head video card, another had a HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards and the last one is a good working 333 MHz PII with quite decent peripherals. I also picked up a Pentium powered laptop made by DEC, a TRS model 4P with manuals, a nice bench top power supply, a tote bin full of mil-spec wire and quite a few smaller goodies. Joe PS one of the places that we visted had two AS-400s and (I think!) a system 36. None of us were interested in them so I didn't look closely at them. They had two Bendix computers that Mike wants but that's another message. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:36:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:02:01 2005 Subject: Any stories of Dayton? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020520163831.0111f910@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520150135.04bffa30@enigma> <20020520183013.42902.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101023615.4aaf06e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:38 PM 5/20/02 -0400, Roger wrote: >Rumor has it that Dan Veeneman may have mentioned these words: >>At 11:30 AM 5/20/02 -0700, Loboyko Steve wrote: > >>>I went, and I was somewhat disappointed. > >[snip] > >>Classic computer hardware, especially the less-common stuff, >>was scarce this year. > >[snip] > >>Bought: > >[snippage of purchased {purloned??? ;-) } stuff...] > >So what you're trying to say is, you got there first, and bought everything >CC-ish out??? ;-) I keep telling you guys that you MUST get there early!!!!! If you wait till opening time to get there then you won't find much, If you're one of those that waits to after lunch to show up then you're wasting your time! If you really want to find stuff, Register as a dealer and go in when they open for dealer setup. I FREQUENTLY leave home at 3AM to be near the front of the dealer line waiting to get in. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:55:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:02:05 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <001801c20046$0db6f500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101025515.4c47fe04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:33 PM 5/20/02 -0600, Dick wrote: >Well ... people who REALLY want to see an old-time (REAL) machine can always >go to a local junk yard and see the rusting hulks in the yard. They hang >around a long time because it's so unprofitable to disassemble the racks, >since there are mixes of plastics, aluminum, and steel, which means labor's >required to make 'em useful. They're not terribly exciting to watch, since >they don't show much evidence of the stuff going on inside. I make a point of looking at the back of as many PCs as possible. I find lots of intersting stuff just by looking for unusual connectors. I picked up a dual head Number Nine video card, HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards in the past week by doing that. Speaking of rusting hulks, Mike was here and spotted two OLD!!!! Bendix computers at one place that we visited. He's going to try buy them. I don't know what they are but they have paper tape readers and a programmers panels on them. Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 03:01:44 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:02:05 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101030144.4aaf62d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:44 PM 5/20/02 -0600, you wrote: >Is the classic computer sources finally drying up to become E-bay >collector items only so most people can't see a real machine anymore? Tell me, how much time did you honestly spend out looking for classic computers within the last week???? I don't mean time spend browsing E-bay or looking at messages on CC list or news-groups. I mean time outside in a scrap yard or some place similar. I don't know you so I can't say how you operate but it's been my experience that most people that complain about not being able to find anything aren't really looking. FWIW I spent 1/2 day one day and about an hour another and found three good PCs; one is a rack mount and besides being usefull for trade it has a loaded Number Nine dual head video card, another had a HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards and the last one is a good working 333 MHz PII with quite decent peripherals. I also picked up a Pentium powered laptop made by DEC, a TRS model 4P with manuals, a nice bench top power supply, a tote bin full of mil-spec wire and quite a few smaller goodies. Joe PS one of the places that we visted had two AS-400s and (I think!) a system 36. None of us were interested in them so I didn't look closely at them. They had two Bendix computers that Mike wants but that's another message. From donm at cts.com Thu Jan 1 01:09:27 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: MPI-52 as replacement for SA400? In-Reply-To: <34b9fbc9.75972282@hoser> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > Is the SA-400 the standard Northstar floppy drive? I've been running > a Northstar floppy controller in my IMSAI, using just a couple of > plain old IBM-XT floppy drives. I was clued in by someone else on > this list that they would work, and they seem to be fine; even > handling the original hard-sectored diskettes! I was under the > impression that the sectoring was at least in part determined by the > drive, but have been told (and have seen for myself) that this is not > so; it's determined by the controller. Hope this helps! You are correct, Bill. I have substituted a half-high 720k 5.25" drive for the full high 100tpi drive on a 16-hard-sector Vector Graphics quite successfully. > On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:37:37 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > > > > >I've got a Northstar Horizon that I'm starting to restore. The Northstar > >manual indicates that the Northstar disk controller wants to talk to one > >or two SA400s, which sounds about right considering the time period. > > > >Problem is the only SA400s, or similar, that I have are in my SWTPC 6800 > >and I don't want to pull them. I know that the SWTPC will accept an > >MPI-51 as a replacement for an SA400 (but not an SA400 on a controller > >that expects to see MPI-51s since they have a slightly higher step rate). > > > >Could I use an MPI-52, and under what conditions, as a replacement for > >the SA400s that the Northstar wants to see? If so, why? If not, why not? > > > >Thanks... > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > > -Bill Richman > bill_r@inetnebr.com > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. > When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. > When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. > Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." > -www.paranoia.com > - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 01:42:38 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <940ee144.34aae63f@aol.com> Message-ID: > a)I am curious to know what that sed command line _was_ cat filename | sed s/"text to replace"/"replacement text"/g > outfile You can also do sed s/"text to replace"/"replacement text"/g < infile > outfile In my case it was under 40 characters to replace every instance of 1995 with 1997 in a 25mb file. > b)I appreciate Linux's usefulness for networks (I did mention TCP/IP stacks, > remember :), but I see no use in it for anything else. i.e. stuff like word > processing. Since that is the most common computer function today, I would > think Linux would have some utility for it, but all there is is stuff like vi > and EMACS. Why can't Linux folks settle with some MS Word-style program? > First, I don't consider word processing to be a meaningful test of an OS's usefulness. Word processing is probably the most wasteful way ever invented to use personal computers. Sure it's easy but I can word process just as quickly and easily on my old Mac SE as I can on a new 95 box. Second, there are applications...I believe WordPerfect is available for Linux as well as many other WSIWYG programs. I don't use them on my Linux box because I prefer to have it do useful things. Third, I think you need to pick up a copy of Linux Journal as it has listings for commercial software etc. Fourth, let's not underestimate the value of what you call 'TCP/IP Stack' operations. We're not talking about a replacement for Trumpet Winsock here...we're talking about being able to do EVERYTHING that thousands of dollars worth of commercial software can do, do it better and FASTER...for FREE. The financial value of that alone is incalculable when you realize how much of the Internet simply would not have been implemented had it not been for Linux (and other free unix-based OSs). > But wait! I DID try installing a small text editor to run under X. It needed > MOTIF, but said it would run with LessTIF. So, I copy over LessTIF and it > doesn't compile. Neither does the little notepad program, for that matter. All of this software you mention, or equivalents, is readily available on sunsite.unc.edu or other Linux archives in binary form. > That was the end of my last try at Linux, a few months ago. I have a Slackware > Linux CD with Kernels up to 1.3.12. I now have T-1 access, though, so if you > can suggest a system which COULD BE A VIABLE REPLACEMENT FOR MacOS OR WINDOWS, Linux isn't a replacement for MacOS or Windows...it goes FAR BEYOND the capabilities of either. Certainly you can use it for word processing, using the WordPerfect etc mentioned above, but Linux boxes are serious business machines that can represent thousands of dollars in revenues to a business that uses it. It's like saying a Cray could never be useful because you can't run Microsoft Word on it. I don't think it's reasonable to make Word the be-all end-all basis for judging a machine. Keep in mind that there's a trade-off between flexibility and ease-of-use. Linux will never be as easy to install as Windows 95. It isn't intended for that purpose. It's far too powerful and flexible for that and assumes that the user wants to go beyond mere word processing. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 1 01:12:23 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01bd1684$9b600fa0$LocalHost@hotze> >First, I don't consider word processing to be a meaningful test of an >OS'susefulness. Word processing is probably the most wasteful >way ever invented to use personal computers. Sure it's easy but I >can word process just as quickly and easily on my old Mac SE as I >can on a new 95 box. It IS NOT a test of usefulness, but still, it's one of the reasons that has made PC computing popular. Besides, there ARE WORD PROCESSORS AVAIBLE FOR LINUX! Just because billg won't make a word processor for a x86 OS that isn't his doesn't mean that the OS isn't useful. >Second, there are applications...I believe WordPerfect is available for >Linux as well as many other WSIWYG programs. I don't use them on my >Linux box because I prefer to have it do useful things. Yep. Visit their site, and you can download a trial. Also, you can download a beta for the Java version. >Third, I think you need to pick up a copy of Linux Journal as it has >listings for commercial software etc. Where can I get one of those? >Fourth, let's not underestimate the value of what you call 'TCP/IP Stack' >operations. We're not talking about a replacement for Trumpet Winsock >here...we're talking about being able to do EVERYTHING that thousands of >dollars worth of commercial software can do, do it better and >FASTER...for FREE. The financial value of that alone is incalculable >when you realize how much of the Internet simply would not have been >implemented had it not been for Linux (and other free unix-based OSs). It IS an advanced system. That's what happens when you get 500 expert programmers together working cooperatively as their hobby. >> That was the end of my last try at Linux, a few months ago. I have a Slackware >> Linux CD with Kernels up to 1.3.12. I now have T-1 access, though, so if you >> can suggest a system which COULD BE A VIABLE REPLACEMENT FOR MacOS OR WINDOWS, Try OS/2 Warp. But there arn't too many commercial apps. I guess that it's most useful to preven hacking, as no one owns a copy. ;-) >Linux isn't a replacement for MacOS or Windows...it goes FAR BEYOND the >capabilities of either. Certainly you can use it for word processing, >using the WordPerfect etc mentioned above, but Linux boxes are serious >business machines that can represent thousands of dollars in revenues to >a business that uses it. Exactly. PC's also became popular because they could do ANYTHING. But my uses and yours probably are different. I use word processing, (I can type faster than I handwrite), but I also use e-mail, the 'Net, my browser, 3D software, and many other things. >It's like saying a Cray could never be useful because you can't run Microsoft Word on >it. I don't think it's reasonable to make Word the be-all end-all basis for judging a >machine. Exactly. It's one example of a word processor. It's not a standard, just another popular app. If you're going to measue word processing, just look at what the avaible editors CAN DO. >Keep in mind that there's a trade-off between flexibility and >ease-of-use. Linux will never be as easy to install as Windows 95. It >isn't intended for that purpose. It's far too powerful and flexible for >that and assumes that the user wants to go beyond mere word processing. No, it won't. But that doesn't mean that it can't get easy. (Or just not hard) Linux will be here for awhile, and so we've got to live withit. From cgregory at lrbcg.com Thu Jan 1 11:04:50 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 Message-ID: <01bd16d7$5f3aa320$c227a2ce@cliffgre> Anyone have a source for manuals/software for a CBM 8032 /8050 floppy drive? Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 1 11:07:50 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: More adds to collection Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980101110750.006ca4e8@pop3.concentric.net> Happy New Year to All Yesterday I picked up a few more item including this short list, a Sanyo model DM8012CX monitor that works; a LaserWriter II $15; two Kodak Diconix 150 Plus printers for free; LattisNet Model 102 power module and four model 505 transceivers for $15; Mac IIsi shell for free; and few other items. Messages to the those of you that asked about a few things, yes the HP is a model 9114; I will be trading or selling some of the travelmates; I will be getting the Mac KB for the person that asked on Friday I hope. That's it for now Keep Computing. John From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jan 1 11:37:04 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: <940ee144.34aae63f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980101093704.0071eaa4@ferrari.sfu.ca> Read http://www.netaction.org/articles/freesoft.html for a discussion of the importance of free software such as Linux to the infrastructure of the net. Free software and open standards drive creativity and foster a collaborative approach that benefits all. The fastest way to fix bugs in new software is to release the source code to the community. Hmmm, funny MS hasn't done this with Win 95 or NT... Lots of folks got their first computing experience in the PC era, and being victims of media and advertising hype decry free software as substandard. The opposite is true. When substandard software has all the hype and the gigabucks behind it, it unfortunately develops a market force that is all but impossible to stop. Where's Beta rather than VHS these days anyway? Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jan 1 12:04:08 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: Old Zenith luggable In-Reply-To: groberts@mitre.org's message of Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:17:51 -0500 References: <3.0.3.32.19971229061751.0071fc9c@mail90> Message-ID: <199801011804.KAA03586@daemonweed.reanimators.org> groberts@mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) wrote: > i have recently been given an old Zenith laptop model ZFL-181-92. batteries > discharged or dead. no power supply. i would like information if anyone > can help me on what type of power supply to use. the label on the bottom > of the systems says: DC 12 V, Plug-in power supply Model 150-272. Sorry, I don't know the power-supply polarity, but maybe this will give you another thing to look for. I am thinking that HP badge-engineered this model of Zenith as the Vectra Portable CS. The place I worked at the time bought two or three of them to replace a couple of HP 110s that were three or four years old and becoming a data-interchange hassle (different stiffy format, had to get the 9114A and hook it up, Lotus 1A on the 110 vs. 2.x on the desktops (HP Vectra and Vectra ES), those sorts of things). My admittedly dim memories of those fit with the pop-up dual 720KB stiffy drive, and I think there was also a bar graph LCD "fuel gauge" to tell you how much oomph was left in the battery. As I recall it was very IBM-compatible, but then just about anything was compared to the 110s. -Frank McConnell From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 12:22:53 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980101093704.0071eaa4@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > The opposite is true. When substandard software has all the hype and the > gigabucks behind it, it unfortunately develops a market force that is all > but impossible to stop. Where's Beta rather than VHS these days anyway? Well, where I work we have quite a few beta machines! Until this past year, it was the BetaSP machines that did most of the work. (They're still used, but most of the work is done on hard drive now.) It's interesting how the 'mass market' decided VHS was better, yet the professional/broadcast industry stayed with the truly better system. You can see the same thing happen in the computer industry as well. (just to keep this on topic.) > Kevin ttyl srw From pjoules at enterprise.net Thu Jan 1 04:59:31 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <01bd1627$28760240$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Hotze wrote: > > I haven't personally tried it, but a Japanese company had some XT clone > laptops (OK, luggables) which ran Windows 3.x (Maybe it was 3.0, or > 3.1, there's not to awful much of a difference in my mind). Any Windows 3.x is going to be *very* slow on an XT. There is (IMHO) a tremendous difference between 3.0 and 3.1 not just the maintenance release that the version number suggests. As to 3.1 running (walking ;-) on an XT most of them are ruled out because there is no support for CGA, Hercules or MDA, I can't recall off the top of my head if it even supported EGA but I think it did. From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 1 12:47:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971231144857.007cd900@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, John Higginbotham wrote: > It was nice to be able to run a program off one floppy, and never worrying > about running out of memory, even if you only had 128k/256k. But, memory > prices got cheaper, shoot, everything got cheaper, and now we need a > supercomputer just to run a word processor like Word 97. I can understand > utilizing more system resources for new and better (not to mention useful) > features, but it looks to me like people these days are just throwing in > options because they can. That is one special aspect of this hobby. We can marvel at the technical brilliance of machines made just 10 years ago that were a fraction of the speed and had a fraction of the memory and storage of today's computers yet provided the same functionality. This is a realization that only those who lived through that era of computing or those who enjoy this hobby can share. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 1 12:51:57 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Zeus334 wrote: > Er....one question here. I've tried Linux many times, as well as Minix. From > all of my attempts, I have come to the following conclusion: Linux is not for > doing USEFUL things. The express purpose of Linux is to provide something for > people to recompile. After all, you HAVEN'T seen people doing something on > Linux besides recompiling the kernel and configuring TCP/IP stacks, HAVE YOU? Oh come now! You're being silly and you know it. I have a friend who runs a very successful ISP (~1000 customers) entirely on Linux (well, I think he has a SparcServer for news or something). Linux is a better operating system than 95% of the available commercial PC offerings. How useful it is depends on how good you put it to use. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From scottk5 at ibm.net Thu Jan 1 15:55:32 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <01bd1627$28760240$LocalHost@hotze> <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Message-ID: <34AC10D4.27EC@ibm.net> Regarding interesting OS's that run on XT's: Amstrad shipped a little GUI with it's PC1512's and 1640's called GEM. It requires two 360K drives and 640K, I think. Cliff Lawson has it in a file area off of his Amstrad web page http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/info.htm It's very similar looking to GEOS for the c64. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 1 12:57:17 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Wirehead Prime wrote: > In 1993 I started an ISP around $500, a 386 box cobbled together from > friends' spare junk and Linux...today that ISP is statewide, owns all its > hardware, has no debts and pays me twice the median income in my state, I > own my home and have the leisure time in the evenings to correct folks' > misconceptions about the usefulness of Linux. Why? Because of Linux, > it's flexibility, it's cost (FREE) and it's reliability. Need any more be said? PS. Very commendable, Anthony! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 14:20:11 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Er....one question here. I've tried Linux many times, as well as Minix. From > > all of my attempts, I have come to the following conclusion: Linux is not for > > doing USEFUL things. The express purpose of Linux is to provide something for > > people to recompile. After all, you HAVEN'T seen people doing something on > > Linux besides recompiling the kernel and configuring TCP/IP stacks, HAVE YOU? > > Oh come now! You're being silly and you know it. I have a friend who > runs a very successful ISP (~1000 customers) entirely on Linux (well, I > think he has a SparcServer for news or something). Linux is a better > operating system than 95% of the available commercial PC offerings. How > useful it is depends on how good you put it to use. Sam I think your response is more level-headed than mine was. I tend to get a bit emotional on New Years Eve. Ah well... At any rate, I'm always amused by the 1 in a 100 phone call from a Linux customer who wants to connect to my ISP. "Yeah, I installed this Slackware CD and I'd like to dial in with Linux...how do I do it?" which always sounds to me a bit like "Yeah, I'm sittin' up here in this here Space Shuttle...how do I light this baby up?" because they've skipped over so many steps, before calling me, that I don't even know where to begin. "Do you know how to edit text?" "Well I was looking for EDIT but it's not here..." "Well, you'll need to use something like vi or EMACS." "What?" "You'll need to edit a script to do the dialing and ppp connection." "Can't I just do it in the control panel?" "There is no control panel." "Ok type vi..." "I did it said ' bash: VI: command not found'" "ummmm....it should be there..." because I can't see their screen It just becomes such a total nightmare that I don't even know how to begin. These folks have gotten so used to total hand-holding from software vendors that it is virtually impossible for them to shift paradigm into an environment that is pre-emptive multi-tasking/multi-user with different access levels etc etc etc and where the way you learn about the system is to find ways to answer your own questions, read HOWTO files and read books that don't have the specific name of your OS on the cover. Linux isn't a replacement for 95, NT or Macintosh...it's a STEP UP to a higher level of computing, which necessitates that the user take a step up in their techniques for learning about the system. Unfortunately, I fear that the 'blackbox computing' market has bred it out of most people. Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 13:18:12 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Message-ID: Windows 3.0 would run on an XT with CGA and 640k RAM. I know because I did it. Unfortunately, I threw out my box and docs years ago. (Still have the disks, though.) Windows 3.1: The box says it needs a 286+ (386sx recommended), 640k+256k extended, EGA/VGA/SVGA/XGA/8514A/Hercules. I know because I'm looking at the box as I type. > tremendous difference between 3.0 and 3.1 not just the maintenance New features in 3.1 (from the Getting Started book): Truetype fonts OLE New File Manager Drag and Drop Online Tutorial Printing Enhancements New Multimedia Features (media player, sound recorder, wave/MIDI in control panel) Additional Features and Enhancements (4 pages including improved MS-DOS app support, Network enhancements, new desktop features-including screen savers, other minor stuff) Performance Improvements (progman uses less memory, winfile is faster, dos app in a box better on a 386, printing faster/more efficient, Disk caching more integrated.) From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 13:25:48 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > "You'll need to edit a script to do the dialing and ppp connection." > "Can't I just do it in the control panel?" > "There is no control panel." Well, I know a lot of old Slackware believers dislike RedHat, but RedHat does have a GUI control panel from which you can configure the ppp connection (among other things.) Maybe you should recomment RedHat to those people. > "Ok type vi..." > "I did it said ' bash: VI: command not found'" > "ummmm....it should be there..." because I can't see their screen Then again, maybe you should recommend Win95. > Wirehead - Anthony Clifton ttyl srw From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 14:44:38 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Reminiscing WAS Re: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > In 1993 I started an ISP around $500, a 386 box cobbled together from > > friends' spare junk and Linux...today that ISP is statewide, owns all its > > hardware, has no debts and pays me twice the median income in my state, I > > own my home and have the leisure time in the evenings to correct folks' > > misconceptions about the usefulness of Linux. Why? Because of Linux, > > it's flexibility, it's cost (FREE) and it's reliability. > > PS. Very commendable, Anthony! Thanks Sam. For your amusement I'll tell you the ORIGINAL plan! It's not on the website at http://www.retrocomputing.com. In 1991 and 1992 I started to formulate the idea, which I had not previously read anywhere (although I wasn't the first to think of it), that Internet access could be provided to the masses and that money could be made from this. Problem was...networking hardware and multi-user systems were VERY expensive...who could afford 5 figures for a DecStation or something similar? But older Vaxen (780s, 750s and so on) were starting to show up 'Free to a good home'. So our plan was to drive across country, to New Hampshire if I recall, to pick up a 780, another 780 still in boxes, and an PDP-11/70. These would be driven back in a U-Haul and placed in a back room someplace with adequate power. We felt we could make it work because we'd cobbled together an 11/34A from a bizarre array of parts...it had RL02s, it had RK07s (which are a BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*tch to carry up three flights of stairs), it had a TU-11(?), with a MacIIx or fx for a terminal. =-) It ran some flavor of RSTS and we had all sorts of fun putting a modem on it and telling our college buddies about this "Defense Department mainframe we'd hacked into at such and such a phone number" and then playing with their minds when they dialed into it. Around that time I saw a friend's machine running some early flavor of FreeBSD or NetBSD or SomethingBSD I decided that it could be done on Intel boxes. All my friends...including the guy who built the 11/34A with me...laughed at the idea. Well here I am today and the guy who helped with the 11/34 is running a competing ISP up to its EARS in debt because he did everything with off-the-shelf workstations. Frankly, I think he was just humoring me on the 'pick up the 11/780s' idea and wanted to see if I'd actually suffer through the experience. Speaking of the 11/34, the guy whose apartment we built it in later decided he didn't want it anymore so another friend and I went over and salvaged what we could as he hauled it down to the dumpster (had a falling out over that) and the controller for the tape drive got left in my friend's car (HE'S STILL a friend) but he didn't realize it until later. Later he sees it and takes it into his dorm room but doesn't have a safe place to put it so he lifts up one of the false ceiling tiles and sets it up there, which I didn't know until AFTER he'd vacated the room, graduated and moved home. So....if anyone needs a controller for a TU-11(?) I know where one is if you want to do a little breaking and entering...OR...try explaining to what will be a very confused-looking college student why you need to go into their room and look in the ceiling. =-) [BTW, for those doing the math I spent a few EXTRA years in college when I realized that teaching physics to high school students is not terribly lucrative nor will the state education folks back you up if you get sued for breaking up a fight between students...IE having to knock a student down to keep someone from getting killed. That happened to another teacher while I was doing my student teaching. The very next semester I switched to Computer Science. I'm 29 now.] [I graduated, finally, in May '94. The friend I mentioned didn't graduate until the following year. But in Fall '94 he walks into a Comp Sci class first day and the prof starts telling this story about how the previous spring he'd finally graduated the last student who was at (Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa) who was there before the University had Macintoshes. The prof was my advisor and he was talking about me. =) In fact, I recall when there was only an 11/780 and VT102s and some fungo work-alike with a horrible keyboard. I still have one of those VT102s.] Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 1 13:39:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801011939.AA07110@world.std.com> <> I haven't personally tried it, but a Japanese company had some XT clo <> laptops (OK, luggables) which ran Windows 3.x (Maybe it was 3.0, or <> 3.1, there's not to awful much of a difference in my mind). 3.0 still had support for 808x(xt class) machines. I know as it have 3.0. 3.1 besides enhancements and structureal improvements dropped support for 8086 though it runs on 286 and above. < Message-ID: Help! =-) I need to acquire a Northstar boot disk (CP/M) for a Horizon with an MDS-AD3 controller. It's also got a Disk Jockey IID/B. I have all the documentation for the machine just no boot disks. BTW, this is not the crusty one mentioned on http://www.retrocomputing.com. It's another one I purchased complete. Although, having a working one as a template gives me better feelings about trying to resurrect the crusty Northstar. We'll see. Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 14:21:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34AC10D4.27EC@ibm.net> References: <01bd1627$28760240$LocalHost@hotze> <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Message-ID: >Regarding interesting OS's that run on XT's: > >Amstrad shipped a little GUI with it's PC1512's and 1640's called GEM. It >requires two >360K drives and 640K, I think. Cliff Lawson has it in a file area off of >his Amstrad web >page > >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/info.htm > >It's very similar looking to GEOS for the c64. > >Kirk Scott >scottk5@ibm.net If you're talking about the GEM I think you're talking about. Wasn't it licensed from Digital Research? GEM is also the basis for the 16 & 32-bit Atari's. I just can't remember at this point if the PC version ran on DOS, or if it required CP/M to run. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 14:16:14 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Scott Walde wrote: >Well, I know a lot of old Slackware believers dislike RedHat, but RedHat >does have a GUI control panel from which you can configure the ppp >connection (among other things.) Maybe you should recomment RedHat to >those people. Wow, I'm one of those old Slackware believers, I only switched to it after SLS was seriously dead and outdated, before that I was doing it prior to any distribution, just using the Boot/Root disks that were available at the time, and downloading the pieces. Having said that, I think the next time I decide to set up a new version of Linux I'll take RedHat for a spin. Just because I've used the Slackware distribution for the last 3-4 years doesn't mean I like to do things the hard way, it's more like inertia (i.e. I'm used to installing it, and can do it without thinking). What I really like is how easy X-Windows has become to configure. I remember the nightmare I had setting up Xega, back when that was the only way to run X if you didn't have an ET4000 based video card! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 15:32:17 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Northstar Boot Disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW, if availability of hard-sectored media is the issue, I will arrange to provide some. I'm sure I can dig up something appropriate. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > Help! =-) > > I need to acquire a Northstar boot disk (CP/M) for a Horizon with an > MDS-AD3 controller. It's also got a Disk Jockey IID/B. I have all the > documentation for the machine just no boot disks. > > BTW, this is not the crusty one mentioned on http://www.retrocomputing.com. > It's another one I purchased complete. Although, having a working one as > a template gives me better feelings about trying to resurrect the crusty > Northstar. We'll see. > > Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 15:40:23 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Wow, I'm one of those old Slackware believers, I only switched to it after > SLS was seriously dead and outdated, before that I was doing it prior to > I've still got an old Slackware install (3 year old install) with kernel 1.1.59 running a mail server, domain name server (about 100 domains) and routing a couple megabits of traffic from one ethernet board to another. Slackware is just a rock-solid product. > Having said that, I think the next time I decide to set up a new version of > Linux I'll take RedHat for a spin. Just because I've used the Slackware > distribution for the last 3-4 years doesn't mean I like to do things the > You might consider Caldera Network Desktop. It's easy to install, they have telephone tech support (which is nice if you're trying to figure out why X won't work with this or that video card) and at $99-$129 the price really isn't too bad for what you get. Plus it comes with Netscape and RealAudio these days and can do so much out of the box, it's quite fun. > What I really like is how easy X-Windows has become to configure. I > remember the nightmare I had setting up Xega, back when that was the only > way to run X if you didn't have an ET4000 based video card! The nicest video card is some Trident unit with 1m of ram...a buddy is going to give me a nice SVGA card of some sort, which he says will make X fun and pleasant for me. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: BTW, Linux is a GREAT environment for running emulators. You can find some by going to http://www.retrocomputing.com/software.html. Ok, it's shameless self-promotion but it's not like I'm making money off it. =-) From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 14:50:22 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Regarding interesting OS's that run on XT's: > >If you're talking about the GEM I think you're talking about. Wasn't it >licensed from Digital Research? GEM is also the basis for the 16 & 32-bit >Atari's. I just can't remember at this point if the PC version ran on DOS, >or if it required CP/M to run. The GEM I have runs on DOS. (I also have a copy of GEM for the Tandy2000, but my T2000 doesn't have enough RAM to run it.) Yes, it was Digital Research. Back in my Desktop Publishing days, I ran Ventura Publisher under runtime GEM on top of DOS. I also seriously looked at GEMDraw, but rather picked a new drawing package that ran on Windows 2.11 called CorelDraw :-) Little did I know that years later Corel would buy Ventura Publisher. ttyl srw From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jan 1 15:18:45 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B Message-ID: <01bd16fa$d7f2f1a0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 1 17:22:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Old Zenith luggable In-Reply-To: <199801011804.KAA03586@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.3.32.19971229061751.0071fc9c@mail90> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980101172201.0fff6f32@intellistar.net> At 10:04 AM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >groberts@mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) wrote: >> i have recently been given an old Zenith laptop model ZFL-181-92. batteries >> discharged or dead. no power supply. i would like information if anyone >> can help me on what type of power supply to use. the label on the bottom >> of the systems says: DC 12 V, Plug-in power supply Model 150-272. > >Sorry, I don't know the power-supply polarity, but maybe this will give >you another thing to look for. I used to have one. I THINK the center contact was +. This is this opposite of most coaxial connectors. I'm sure the charger was 12VDC. It should be easy to open the battery pack and see what the polarity is. Voltage isn't critical with NiCads as long as the charge rate is kept down to C/10 rate or less. I know of HPs that charge a three cell NICad pack ( 3.6 V) at 16 volts with no problems. > >I am thinking that HP badge-engineered this model of Zenith as the >Vectra Portable CS. The place I worked at the time bought two or >three of them to replace a couple of HP 110s that were three or four >years old and becoming a data-interchange hassle (different stiffy >format, had to get the 9114A and hook it up, Lotus 1A on the 110 >vs. 2.x on the desktops (HP Vectra and Vectra ES), those sorts of >things). My admittedly dim memories of those fit with the pop-up dual >720KB stiffy drive, and I think there was also a bar graph LCD "fuel >gauge" to tell you how much oomph was left in the battery. > >As I recall it was very IBM-compatible, but then just about anything >was compared to the 110s. > Zenith prided itself on being totally IBM compatable. They used to have a team that did nothing but resolve incompatability problems. I remember reading how they found one SW package that looked for the letters I B M in the BIOS and wouldn't run it they weren't there. They even found a fix for that. >-Frank McConnell > From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 1 17:02:25 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801012302.SAA20887@server1.netpath.net> At 02:39 PM 1/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > >3.0 supports all, so does 3.1. The way I remember it is this way: CGA, EGA, and Herc are supported by 3.0 and below, but if you want to run them on 3.1/3.11, you need to download the drivers from microsoft. (Either that, or I had some screwed up install disks). I figure they were think "Who'd want to install 3.1/3.11 on something so slow???" - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 1 17:40:24 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-01 18:07:53 EST, you write: << CGA, EGA, and Herc are supported by 3.0 and below, but if you want to run them on 3.1/3.11, you need to download the drivers from microsoft. (Either that, or I had some screwed up install disks). I figure they were think "Who'd want to install 3.1/3.11 on something so slow???" >> actually, the drivers are present for ega on 3.1 version. just run \windows\setup and change to ega. i tried it just for kicks one time, and didnt notice much difference except for the splash screen. dialog boxes and program manager looked almost identical. david From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 1 19:07:45 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B In-Reply-To: <01bd16fa$d7f2f1a0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980101190745.0093f770@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Bill Girnius head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a >stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted? I'm quite sure that there is a boot disk that's needed as well, but I could never get my Jr's to spew out video very well... :-( HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From wpe at interserv.com Thu Jan 1 18:27:43 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems References: Message-ID: <34AC347E.D8F84AF3@interserv.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, John Higginbotham wrote: > > > It was nice to be able to run a program off one floppy, and never worrying > > about running out of memory, even if you only had 128k/256k. FWIW, I've got a DEC PDT-11 (Haven't touched it in years, due to space constraints) that didn't have enough memory to load BASIC off floppy.. (no clue off'a the top of my head what it's memory size is...) Gawd, I gotta get that thing out, hitch it up to a terminal, and see iff'n it'll still boot... Happy New Year to all the subscribers to the list! Will From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 1 18:40:19 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801020040.TAA25063@server1.netpath.net> Yeah. EGA is pretty much the same as standard VGA (where windows is concerned). The colors (to me) look alot richer and more vibrant on an EGA. Maybe they just ditched the CGA/Herc drivers then. At 06:40 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote: >actually, the drivers are present for ega on 3.1 version. just run >\windows\setup and change to ega. i tried it just for kicks one time, and >didnt notice much difference except for the splash screen. dialog boxes and >program manager looked almost identical. > >david > - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 1 19:16:28 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801020116.AA27165@world.std.com> A side note: Anyone looking for info/downloads of different OS'es might want to take a look at: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/bridges/oses.html They have a rather exhaustive list of some real odd-balls... Les From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 1 19:31:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801020131.AA04701@world.std.com> Message-ID: I'm looking for a Unibus SCSI controller for the PDP-11/84 that I'm retrieving next week so I can run small modern drives on it instead of the power sucking RA-8x series drives it currently has. Anyone out there with one? If not, and you hear of one, let me know. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Jan 1 18:06:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: More adds to collection In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980101110750.006ca4e8@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <199801020501.AAA20282@mail.cgocable.net> Oh shucks, no personal reply email address, So... Asking price on each Travelmates 2k "as is" of your offering? Thanks! It's great portable for weight + size of display but poor on cpu. But that would be wonderful WP only portable. Jason D. > Happy New Year to All > Yesterday I picked up a few more item including this short list, a Sanyo > model DM8012CX monitor that works; a LaserWriter II $15; two Kodak Diconix > 150 Plus printers for free; LattisNet Model 102 power module and four model > 505 transceivers for $15; Mac IIsi shell for free; and few other items. > Messages to the those of you that asked about a few things, yes the HP is a > model 9114; I will be trading or selling some of the travelmates; I will be > getting the Mac KB for the person that asked on Friday I hope. That's it > for now Keep Computing. John > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 1 23:37:34 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Unibus SCSI controller for PDP-11/84 In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 1, 98 11:48:47 pm Message-ID: <9801020537.AA02383@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 738 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980101/6fea7b6a/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 1 23:55:56 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Unibus SCSI controller for PDP-11/84 In-Reply-To: <9801020537.AA02383@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 1, 98 09:37:34 pm Message-ID: <9801020555.AA02414@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980101/c38d37a4/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 20:50:49 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801020125.UAA179058@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: >A side note: >Anyone looking for info/downloads of different OS'es might >want to take a look at: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/bridges/oses.html > >They have a rather exhaustive list of some real odd-balls... > >Les Thank You for this info! After just a quick look I've found info I've been wondering where I could find it, but haven't found the time to look. This looks to be a great page! Lot of stuff not there, but still a great page. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 20:42:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I've still got an old Slackware install (3 year old install) with kernel >1.1.59 running a mail server, domain name server (about 100 domains) and >routing a couple megabits of traffic from one ethernet board to another. >Slackware is just a rock-solid product. I'm definitely not saying it isn't rock-solid. The copy running my server is about two years old, although the kernal was upgraded to 2.0.x so I could run netatalk since I initially wanted to use it as an Appletalk server. Still does that, but does a lot of other stuff also now, of course it's just for personal use. I use it to tie my various old computers together and transfer software I've gotten off of the Internet to them. >You might consider Caldera Network Desktop. It's easy to install, they >have telephone tech support (which is nice if you're trying to figure out >why X won't work with this or that video card) and at $99-$129 the price >really isn't too bad for what you get. Plus it comes with Netscape and >RealAudio these days and can do so much out of the box, it's quite fun. I've seriously considered Caldera. Although I can't be bothered with phone support, and I do my surfing from a Macintosh. I like it's looks because of the X-Windows desktop that comes with it. I think it's called LookingGlass and is a commercial product. I've used it before, and it's about the best I've used for X-Windows. I've always found the support from the newsgroups to be excellent, although I've not had to do that for several years. >The nicest video card is some Trident unit with 1m of ram...a buddy is >going to give me a nice SVGA card of some sort, which he says will make X >fun and pleasant for me. I've actually got a Trident with 512k in the server, it's run X in 256 colours since late '92 or early '93, but isn't fun. The Pentium 133 I use for Linux has a 2Mb Diamand {something} 2000, and is quite nice. The only reason I own that card though is because it was cheap, and OPENSTEP supports it (I built the system to run OPENSTEP). If you are running X you want a good card, X in 16million colours is beautiful! If you want something really wild try the enlightenment window manager, but be forwarned it wants a fast system. X also really wants the system to have more than 16Mb of RAM. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From scottk5 at ibm.net Fri Jan 2 02:00:48 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <199801020606.GAA49730@out4.ibm.net> A friend of mine dumped a small, meant-to-be-rack-mounted box that is marked as a Hewlett Packard 9000 220, (model 9920-A). It has several cards inside including a composite video car, a color output card, and one meant for the keyboard. I tried to find out something about it but haven't gotten very far, there were a few references to the auxiliary cards in articles posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware. It appears to be a 286 workstation maybe, and will boot, but I can't make out the prompts, since it won't sync on the only composite monitor I have with BNC input. Can anyone shed some light on this thing and what cann be done with it? Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Fri Jan 2 00:09:30 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: MAI ? Message-ID: <01bd1744$fd032a60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have acquired a system marked "MAI Basic Four Information System", Model 4105, Tustin California. It's not working. CPU is a Z80 and it has 2 5 1/4" floppy drives. It's sort of sleek looking and the keyboard clips to the front, but there's no way it could be described a luggable. There are no handles and its much heavier than an Osborne 1 or Compaq. Does anyone have any background on this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980102/74673488/attachment.html From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 2 00:29:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: MAI ? In-Reply-To: <01bd1744$fd032a60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Olminkhof wrote: > I have acquired a system marked "MAI Basic Four Information System", > Model 4105, Tustin California. It's not working. > CPU is a Z80 and it has 2 5 1/4" floppy drives. It's sort of sleek > looking and the keyboard clips to the front, but there's no way it could > be described a luggable. There are no handles and its much heavier than > an Osborne 1 or Compaq. I have a similar system but don't know much about it. I was told it is a multi-user CP/M system. Don't have much more information. I acquired it several months ago and shelved it until I have time to play. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 2 00:51:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801020606.GAA49730@out4.ibm.net> Message-ID: >A friend of mine dumped a small, meant-to-be-rack-mounted box that is >marked as a Hewlett Packard 9000 220, (model 9920-A). It has several cards >inside including a composite video car, a color output card, and one >meant for the keyboard. I tried to find out something about it but haven't >gotten very far, there were a few references to the auxiliary cards in >articles posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware. It appears to be a 286 workstation >maybe, and will boot, but I can't make out the prompts, since it won't sync >on the only composite monitor I have with BNC input. > >Can anyone shed some light on this thing and what cann be done with it? HP 9000's are PA-RISC based UNIX workstations running HP-UX. It probably wants an HP monitor. I've seen Sun keyboards used on them, but am not sure if a special mod is required for this. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 03:30:03 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801020606.GAA49730@out4.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102033003.62f7e7b6@intellistar.net> Kirk, I have one sitting in my dining room! It's one of the HP 9000 200 series computers (9826 aka 9000 216, 9836 aka 9000 236, 9000/220, etc). They were replaced with the 9000 300 series and those have been replaced in turn. They date to the early '80s and use a 10 Mhz 68000 CPU. Like most HPs, the hardware and software are both unique to them. Languages for them included disk based BASIC, Pascal and something called HPL. HP offered a lot of different cards for them including BASIC and Pascal in ROM (both very rare), 16 bit parallel intrfaces called GPIO (General Purpose I/O), several different HP-IB interfaces, RS-232 interfaces and lots of LAN type cards. Memory boards were available in 64K, 256K, 1 Meg and 4 Meg sizes. 256 K are by far the most common. When it boots, it will list the installed memory and devices. In case, you haven't guessed everything is interfaced via HP-IB. HP-IB allows several buses per system and up to 32 devices per bus. Each item on a bus has a "select code" between 1 and 32. When the system boots you will see things like "98622 at 12". That means that it found a HP 98622 board at address 12 on the internal HP-IB bus. The 98622 is a GPIO board. Look at the covers on the back. You'll see the part numbers on them and usually they will have the select code marked on them as well. There are two columns of eight expansion slots on the back. BUT you will only see four metal covers in each column! Some cards do not have a metal plate and some do. You may remove a plate with it's attached card and find another card under the same plate but not attached to it. ( I hope that makes sense.) Memory boards do not have metal covers. Interface boards do. Video: Yeap, typical HP, it uses a non-standard video output. I doubt you'll find a monitor that will work on it except the proper HP one. If you send me the part number from the video card I'll tell you which monitors will work with it. More about HP-IB: There sould be a connector for an external HP-IB bus on the back. It will probably be on the same card as the keyboard connection. It will look like a Centronics connector (the same type as a parallel printer uses) except it will only use 24 pins. And before I get flamed, yes I know it's actually an Amphenol connector but in the computer industry they're known as Centronics connectors because that's what Centronics used and they made most of the early printers. These systems did not have any internal disk drives, they were all external and were connected via HP-IB, as were the printers. (You could connect a serial printer to a RS-232 port, but I've never seen it done.) The keyboard interface is also non-standard. There are two different HP key baords that can be used on it but I don't have the numbers handy. If you decide to get rid of it, I'd like to have it. I have a 9000 /220, two 9826s and a 9836. Joe Joe At 02:00 AM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >A friend of mine dumped a small, meant-to-be-rack-mounted box that is >marked as a Hewlett Packard 9000 220, (model 9920-A). It has several cards >inside including a composite video car, a color output card, and one >meant for the keyboard. I tried to find out something about it but haven't >gotten very far, there were a few references to the auxiliary cards in >articles posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware. It appears to be a 286 workstation >maybe, and will boot, but I can't make out the prompts, since it won't sync >on the only composite monitor I have with BNC input. > >Can anyone shed some light on this thing and what cann be done with it? > >Kirk Scott >scottk5@ibm.net > > > > > >Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 2 02:58:04 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01bd175c$8a413040$LocalHost@hotze> >Uh, PC's can do _anything_? Kewl. Set up an IBM PC with 64K RAM, 1 35-track >SSDD Floppy drive, run a multi-user, multi-tasking operating system on it, >and still have enough RAM/Floppy room left over to actually do something >*useful*. Lemme know when it's done. My CoCo in the next room is set up to >do just that. I'm calling anything that's smaller than a mini a PC. >Oh, and BTW: I can do *everything* you listed above on my Atari 1040STf... >albeit not as quickly as my Cyrix box (but there *is* a reason why I >overclocked it!! ;-) but anything possible on today's Pentium machines can >be done right now by machines at least 10 years old... sometimes better! Yep. By the way, what's the best way to overclock a Cyrix? >>No, it won't. But that doesn't mean that it can't get easy. (Or just not >>hard) Linux will be here for awhile, and so we've got to live withit. > >Linux isn't hard. My first install with _no_ Linux experience took just >over an hour to install... and when I was done, (with only the initial >kernal boot) it was useful. My latest Win95 install took me almost 6 hours >to get it working somewhat -- ButtPlug-n-play chose the wrong Ethernet >cards -- but after 3 reboots the wrong drivers (I tried putting in the >right drivers -- NT doesn't even mind being helped along, but 95 whacked >the right ones and reinstalled the wrong ones) started working marginally. >Two more reboots to get the SCSI card working with the scanner, A reboot to >get the screen at the correct resolution / color depth, and 2 more reboots >after software installs that required it. You made a couple mistakes... there arn't MS salesmen here, so don't say PLUG AND PLAY, it's Plug & Pray. What version of Linux is that? >Granted, Linux isn't an ooey-gooey with pretty pictures, and as such one >might require 1/2 a brain to use it -- my personal opinion -- good. Keep >all the idio-er-users with a brainless box... Yes, but ease of use is important to some. > >"Uh, my daughter just downloaded our entire computer onto a disk. How do I >get it back and boot it?" Duh..... >Not to sound like a shit-fer-brains, but my holiday is better spent talking >to you guys & gals than spending 6 hours on the phone talking to a lady who >specifically told me "I don't want to learn anything about my new computer >-- I just want to get on the Internet." -- My boss specifically forbade me >to answer those types of calls anyway ('cause I usually like to be helpful >to newbies) and I don't get my regular work done. Tell 'em what I do: (The other day, I e-mailed a friend who was new to the 'Net, then they replied via e-mail and asked what my e-mail address was.) Then refer them to the convinetly located Online Help, made by someone who had a little to much of whatever they had an overstock of at the bar and now have a shortage of, then designed the manual, found on all MS-OSes. >Yep, Win95 is the NOS for her! (NOS stands for Non-Operating System). But I >digress... Well, it would help if she actually thought. I mean, don't you guies include a manual, like my ISP, that specifically tells you WHERE TO CLICK AND WHEN? ;-) > > >Sorry for the rambling, Have yourselves a joyous and prosperous '98, and >keep those geezers computing!!!! :-) We will.... and don't foget, that means that there are less than 365 days for Windows 98 to be late again. ;-) BTW, does anyone have a spare 14.4 modem? (For x86, preferably NOT a Winmodem) Tim D. Hotze From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Jan 2 06:25:51 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980101093704.0071eaa4@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <940ee144.34aae63f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980102072551.00b1d1e4@mail.wincom.net> At 09:37 AM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >Read http://www.netaction.org/articles/freesoft.html for a discussion of >the importance of free software such as Linux to the infrastructure of the >net. > >Free software and open standards drive creativity and foster a >collaborative approach that benefits all. > >The fastest way to fix bugs in new software is to release the source code >to the community. Hmmm, funny MS hasn't done this with Win 95 or NT... > >Lots of folks got their first computing experience in the PC era, and being >victims of media and advertising hype decry free software as substandard. >The opposite is true. When substandard software has all the hype and the >gigabucks behind it, it unfortunately develops a market force that is all >but impossible to stop. Where's Beta rather than VHS these days anyway? > >Kevin > > > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > What killed Beta, in my opinion, was the mechanical inferiority of the early machines. The added drag of the tape being wrapped around the drum made it nearly impossible to rewind a tape to the beginning. I have three old Beta decks that suffered from this ailment, but my two later models are great. Cheers Charlie Fox From scottk5 at ibm.net Fri Jan 2 09:24:14 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <199801021330.NAA37702@out5.ibm.net> On 1998-01-02 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to scottk5@ibm.net >Kirk, >I have one sitting in my dining room! It's one of the HP 9000 200 >series computers (9826 aka 9000 216, 9836 aka 9000 236, 9000/220, >etc). (Much really helpful information snipped here...) Video: Yeap, typical HP, it uses a >non-standard video output. I doubt you'll find a monitor that will >work on it except the proper HP one. If you send me the part >number from the video card I'll tell you which monitors will work >with it. There are two video output cards; a 98204A, marked composite video; and a 98627A, marked color output. The only monitor I have with RGB and sync BNC ports is a 19" Taxan 980, wonder if that will work? More about HP-IB: There sould be a connector for an >external HP-IB bus on the back. It will probably be on the same >card as the keyboard connection. It will look like a Centronics >connector (the same type as a parallel printer uses) except it will >only use 24 pins. Yes, it's there, but is the keyboard connector the RG-45 looking one? There is also another BNC connector on the same card. >If you decide to get rid of it, I'd like to have it. Thanks a lot for the info, and if I start to think I'm in way over my head with this thing I'll give you first dibs on it. Now I'm wondering what my friend Rick did with the rest of it?!?!?!? Thanks again, Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From brian at jhu.edu Fri Jan 2 08:51:11 1998 From: brian at jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Unibus SCSI controller for PDP-11/84 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > I'm looking for a Unibus SCSI controller for the PDP-11/84 that I'm > retrieving next week so I can run small modern drives on it instead of > the power sucking RA-8x series drives it currently has. Have you considered switching to RA-7x types instead? They've got that handy 5.25" form factor and can be gotten for much less than the $500-$600 that dealers seem to want for a SCSI controller. I'm thinking about trying to use them to replace some RA-81s I have on a Microvax II, and to add some more storage to an 11/84 that's currently running off of RL02s. -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Library Network Guy Johns Hopkins University brian@musicbox.mse.jhu.edu From SouthPork at aol.com Fri Jan 2 09:19:04 1998 From: SouthPork at aol.com (SouthPork) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PC Jr. owner Message-ID: <32071a75.34ad056a@aol.com> I have two PC Jr. that I no longer use, but refuse to just throw away. Also, I have 15+ orig software probrams for the jr. Can you put me in contact with others who might want some for the stuff. I collect Macintohs Classic's and would like to trade. If you want I can sent a list of the software and equipment I have. Thanks, Tom -- SouthPork@aol.com From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jan 2 10:20:38 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PC Jr. owner Message-ID: <01bd179a$5cf4ee40$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I have 3 of these units now, I had no idea they were so common. But I am interested in purchaseing all your software/carts. -----Original Message----- From: SouthPork To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 9:20 AM Subject: PC Jr. owner >I have two PC Jr. that I no longer use, but refuse to just throw away. Also, I >have 15+ orig software probrams for the jr. Can you put me in contact with >others who might want some for the stuff. I collect Macintohs Classic's and >would like to trade. If you want I can sent a list of the software and >equipment I have. > >Thanks, > >Tom >-- SouthPork@aol.com > From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 11:28:06 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <221511bc.34ad23a9@aol.com> I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if there was a PC version or port for DOS? From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jan 2 11:39:28 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy"'s message of Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:51:55 -0800 References: Message-ID: <199801021739.JAA18088@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > HP 9000's are PA-RISC based UNIX workstations running HP-UX. Um, no. Well, if you buy a new one you will get a PA-RISC CPU but that is not historically true. You need to look at the series number to figure out what the CPU is: 500 - FOCUS (HP-proprietary 32-bit stack machine) 200 - 680[01]0 300 - 680[1234]0 (I think the 310 was the only 68010-based series 300) 800 - PA-RISC 400 - 68040 700 - PA-RISC I think these days there is also a Series 600 that is PA-RISC and a "T500" that is PA-RISC. Some of these also have HP 9xxx numbers besides the "9000 Series xxx" designation. If you go back and look at how they were originally sold, the "HP 9000" was briefly just the FOCUS-based systems, which eventually became the HP 9000 Series 520, 530, 540, and 550, and I think I have seen references to the 9000 Series 520 as the "HP 9020". The HP 9000 Series 226 and 236 were originally sold as the HP 9826 and HP 9836; I believe there was some sort of upgrade involved for the 9836 that made it capable of running HP-UX (in addition to the original BASIC, Pascal, and HPL). -Frank McConnell From cgregory at lrbcg.com Fri Jan 2 11:58:18 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <01bd17a8$0183c780$cb27a2ce@cliffgre> I'm sure it was ported to many platforms. I have a copy (1982) made for the Atari 800XL. Even still has the original price sticker on the box, $179.95 (wow). Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 1:35 PM Subject: Visicalc > >Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1] by LRBCG.COM with smtp > id ANCDCBAG ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:35:32 -0500 >Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id JAA27586; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:31:49 -0800 >Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id JAA29210 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:31:45 -0800 >Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) > by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id JAA32074 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:31:45 -0800 >Message-Id: <221511bc.34ad23a9@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:28:06 EST >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Zeus334 >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Visicalc >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if >there was a PC version or port for DOS? > From TOwad at aol.com Fri Jan 2 12:04:15 1998 From: TOwad at aol.com (T Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <1184192e.34ad2c22@aol.com> Are you still interested in selling Visicalc for the Apple II and the other stuff? I'm interested. Sincerely, Tom >I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if >there was a PC version or port for DOS? From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jan 2 12:12:54 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: More on the Documentation Haul Message-ID: <13321046317.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have finally gone through most of this... VAX/VMS manuals (Boy, do I need those!) A lot of PDP-11 diagnostics on punched paper tape (I have a mylar pt reader, will that do for reading these?) XXDP on 9-track tape. A DOS/BATCH distrib tape and some manuals. Loads of RSTS/E manuals and sales stuff. DEC catalogs. Copies of RSTS PROFESSIONAL magazine. (!) Some very detailed PDP-8 manuals (As in they include schematics) The PDP-8 User's Guide User's Guide to the DECsystem-10. The PDP-10 refrence manual. The latter has some wonderful panel pictures, I'll scan those... Some other 10 miscellaneous. Manuals and a bootdisk for my Rainbow! Now all I need's they keyboard an monitor... According to the disk it's CP/M 8.0 A few scratch magtapes and RX02. Some TK50 cartridges. A card reader/punch for Unibus. More as I go through it... Oh yea! There's a VAX/VMS magtape distribution in here, version 4.6 ------- From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 12:14:40 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: Well, I think that I will learn it and use it a bit first. I will say when I am done with the tutorial :) How much would people pay for it, anyway? It is in almost perfect condition, with the reference card, and all that. In a message dated 98-01-02 13:07:22 EST, you write: << Are you still interested in selling Visicalc for the Apple II and the other stuff? I'm interested. Sincerely, Tom >I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if >there was a PC version or port for DOS? >> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 14:24:24 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801021739.JAA18088@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Zane H. Healy"'s message of Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:51:55 -0800> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102142424.60e7f9a8@intellistar.net> At 09:39 AM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> HP 9000's are PA-RISC based UNIX workstations running HP-UX. > >Um, no. Well, if you buy a new one you will get a PA-RISC CPU but >that is not historically true. You need to look at the series number >to figure out what the CPU is: > >500 - FOCUS (HP-proprietary 32-bit stack machine) >200 - 680[01]0 >300 - 680[1234]0 (I think the 310 was the only 68010-based series 300) >800 - PA-RISC >400 - 68040 >700 - PA-RISC > >I think these days there is also a Series 600 that is PA-RISC and >a "T500" that is PA-RISC. > >Some of these also have HP 9xxx numbers besides the "9000 Series xxx" >designation. If you go back and look at how they were originally >sold, the "HP 9000" was briefly just the FOCUS-based systems, which >eventually became the HP 9000 Series 520, 530, 540, and 550, and I >think I have seen references to the 9000 Series 520 as the "HP 9020". >The HP 9000 Series 226 and 236 were originally sold as the HP 9826 and >HP 9836; I believe there was some sort of upgrade involved for the >9836 that made it capable of running HP-UX (in addition to the >original BASIC, Pascal, and HPL). > >-Frank McConnell Frank knows his HPs! I know the 200 series pretty well but he's got all of them down pat. I went and dug out my 1987 HP catalog. Here's what I found: The 9820 (9000 220) U and T models and the 9836 (9000 236) U, CT, T and CT models all use a 68010 CPU running at 12.5 MHz. All other models use a 68000 CPU running at 10 MHz. "The 220 is a modular rack mountable system with separate monitors, keyboards and disk drives." and "It is compatable with BASIC 3.0, Pascal 3.0, SRM and single or multi-user HP-UX." <<< This last sentence applies to all of the 9000 200 series. The 220 also runs HPL even though they don't state that here. SRM is Shared Resource Manager. Note: unlike the other computers in this family, the 220 does not have a 98xx number. The 9000 216 (aka 9816) has a built in monitor (~ 6") and two expansion slots and a detachable keyboard and a built-in HP_IB and RS-232 intefaces are built in. The 9000 226 (aka 9826) has a built-in monitor (~ 6"), attached keyboard and (I think) 8 expansion slots. The 9000 236 (aka 9836) has a separate but matching monitor (~ 14") , a fixed keyboard and six expansion slots. I will scan some of the catalog pictures and post them to my website. You can look at them at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp220.jpg" after I get them posted later today. Pictures of the other 200 series computers will be available as "hp9816.jpg", "hp9826.jpg" and "hp9836.jpg". FWIW the 9000 Vectra series computers (or some of them anyway) used 80286 CPUs and were MS-DOS compatable. NOW My turn. Does anyone know exactly what a 9000 217 model is? I found one but I've neverheard of it before and it's not in any of my catalogs. Joe From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 13:02:21 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Catalogs Message-ID: <23c3442b.34ad39bf@aol.com> I dug up a few more 1984 catalogs, and would like to find out about some stuff in them (I think I have a destination for the catalogs themselves, so don't ask me about buying them) One is a Misco 1985 catalog, which is just general office stuff. Not much in that. The other is an Advanced Computer Products (19)84/85. This one has some computers that I have never seen before. If anyone has a clue about them... *A $500 NEC PC-8200, a very small 16K thing *A $1400 Sanyo MBC 1150 Z-80 based thing *An Epson PX-8 portable for $995 *A macintosh ad saying that it is a 32-bit computer. What gives? *A Sanyo 25" color monitor for $719 *$45 parallel cables *Rockwell International AIM65, looks more like a huge desktop calculator From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 2 14:48:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Classifieds2000 apology Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980102124546.3c976d60@ricochet.net> At 11:38 PM 12/31/97, you wrote: >You should have read the ad. It says "WANTED TO BUY AN IMSAI COMPUTER WITH >OR WITH OUT MANUALS. ALSO ALTAIRS, PROLOG, KIMS, SBC-80-10 BY INTEL YEARS >1975-1982 DECS, JUPER-II BY WAVE MATE. I WILL PAY UP TO 200+ FOR CSOME I should have actually read the ad. I'm *really* sorry to have wasted everone's time with this. >Classifieds2000 is a waste of time IMO. I'm beginning to think so too. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 2 14:48:39 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980102124559.2a5f647a@ricochet.net> At 12:21 PM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >If you're talking about the GEM I think you're talking about. Wasn't it >licensed from Digital Research? GEM is also the basis for the 16 & 32-bit >Atari's. I just can't remember at this point if the PC version ran on DOS, >or if it required CP/M to run. GEM is DR's product, and it did (does) run on the Atari ST & Falcon. Ran on the PC over DOS, iirc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 2 14:48:51 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980102124614.2a5f38ca@ricochet.net> At 07:40 PM 1/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >Yeah. EGA is pretty much the same as standard VGA (where windows is >concerned). The colors (to me) look alot richer and more vibrant on an EGA. >Maybe they just ditched the CGA/Herc drivers then. 3.1 (and 3.11?) had support for Hercules Mono. Which, iirc, wasn't such a bad standard at 720xsomething (better than std VGA?) Of course, you didn't get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all those boring old black and white movies! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Jan 2 14:53:44 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01IRWJHWAAW290NKJD@cc.usu.edu> > (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all > those boring old black and white movies! 8^) True story. When my sone was about 5, he had very interesting taste in TV shows. It went something like this: - If it is animated, watch it. - If it is live-action in color, change the channel. - If it is live-action in B&W, watch it for a while to see if it's funny. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jan 2 14:01:41 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801022105.NAA14650@mx3.u.washington.edu> >When I first ran winders it was on a 386/16 with 4mb of ram > it seemed fast enough to do a lot of useful work. > > > Allison Well, yeah. But, that was when a Winders program came on a couple of floppies, before the code -- and graphics -- bloat. A program, then, did less and had less junk (toolbars and suchlike). Still, some things _have_ improved in speed. My Corel Draw 3 on my laptop handles text in a rather leisurely fashion, wheras Corel Draw 7 is quite snappy. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jan 2 14:27:16 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <199801022105.NAA01691@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I > finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if > there was a PC version or port for DOS? Sure was. -- I've got one (no manuals, tho'). I messed with it a little...works sorta like early Lotus. IIRC, there was one for the PCjr, too. manney@nwohio.com From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 15:16:47 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: > True story. > > When my sone was about 5, he had very interesting taste in TV shows. It > went something like this: > > - If it is animated, watch it. We all love Windows 95 :) > - If it is live-action in color, change the channel. We all love Windows 95 :) > - If it is live-action in B&W, watch it for a while to see if it's funny. Not that strange. Remember that Charlie Chaplin, The Three Stooges, and MS-DOS 1.0 are the three all-time comedy classics! > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jan 2 15:39:16 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <199801022105.NAA01691@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I have VisiCalc for the Tandy series of computers... with all the manuals. CORD ############################################################################## # Cord G. Coslor -- P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE # # (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 # # Classic computer software and hardware collector # # Autograph collector # ############################################################################## #The##/ ___ /#/ ___ /##/ ___ /#/ /##/ /#/_ __/#/ /#/ /#/ _____## #####/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /##/ /##/__/#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /####### ####/ ___ /#/ _ __/##/ /#######/ ___ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ _____/### ###/ /##/ /#/ /#\ \###/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /######### ##/__/##/__/#/_/###\_\#/________/#/__/##/__/#/______/#/_______/#/________/#### ############################################################################## On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > > > > I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I > > finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering > if > > there was a PC version or port for DOS? > > Sure was. -- I've got one (no manuals, tho'). I messed with it a > little...works sorta like early Lotus. > > IIRC, there was one for the PCjr, too. > > manney@nwohio.com > > From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 16:06:40 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-02 16:38:35 EST, you write: << >When I first ran winders it was on a 386/16 with 4mb of ram > it seemed fast enough to do a lot of useful work. > > > Allison Well, yeah. But, that was when a Winders program came on a couple of floppies, before the code -- and graphics -- bloat. A program, then, did less and had less junk (toolbars and suchlike). Still, some things _have_ improved in speed. My Corel Draw 3 on my laptop handles text in a rather leisurely fashion, wheras Corel Draw 7 is quite snappy. manney@nwohio.com >> Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was unfortunately what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which was first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased out. MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong here, I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jan 2 16:33:32 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Fri, 02 Jan 1998 14:24:24 References: <3.0.1.16.19980102142424.60e7f9a8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801022233.OAA26947@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > Frank knows his HPs! I know the 200 series pretty well but he's got all > of them down pat. I've been doing stuff with HPs for over 20 years now (mostly with 3000s and HP PCs), and some of it stuck. But I've never worked with Series 200s so don't know that much about them, just what I've picked up here and there. And I still think I have a lot to learn. Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP 3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too -- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. Somewhere along the way I decided I wanted a windowing environment that could handle HP terminal emulation on my desk, and after fooling around a bit with PCs I saw some guy up in Berkeley trying to be rid of a 9000 Series 320. So I bought it, and it was good. That sat there 'til early 1994 when I got retreaded into a Windows device driver kind of guy. Now I guess it's part of my collection -- it sits in the storage closet. > FWIW the 9000 Vectra series computers (or some of them anyway) used > 80286 CPUs and were MS-DOS compatable. 9000 Vectra? My recollection of the Vectra family is that it's all IBM-compatibles (well, mostly, I remember the earliest Vectras and they were about 99% if you allowed for the HP-isms that snuck in, like the HP-HIL interface for the keyboard and mouse, the HP keyboard with the f1-f8 keys across the top, and the funky HP Multimode MDA/CGA display adapter) and never was a part of the 9000 family. Though I think I remember something about a coprocessor card (set?) you could stick in ISA slot(s) to run Rocky Mountain BASIC. Of course HP would have sold that in/for Vectra boxes. > NOW My turn. Does anyone know exactly what a 9000 217 model is? I found > one but I've neverheard of it before and it's not in any of my catalogs. Every once in a while I see a flavor of 9000/200 that is built into or around an HP 2382 terminal housing: small, beige skin, brown bezel around 9" monochrome CRT. I think some of the ones I've seen were hooked up to 91[23]x disk drives, and can't remember whether the processor was in a similarly-sized box or in the terminal. Could that be it? I think the HP Integral PC was also the HP 9000/207 though I don't know if it was ever sold under that name. -Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Jan 2 17:03:37 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: MAI ? Message-ID: <003101bd17d3$aea48dc0$54987c0a@office1> I think that MAI produced an accounting system "solution" for businesses consisting of a multi-user computer system and proprietary accounting software. I remember running into them occasionally during field audits of some of our clients. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 19:13:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Classifieds2000 apology In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980102124546.3c976d60@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102191318.451753e4@intellistar.net> At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 11:38 PM 12/31/97, you wrote: >>You should have read the ad. It says "WANTED TO BUY AN IMSAI COMPUTER WITH >>OR WITH OUT MANUALS. ALSO ALTAIRS, PROLOG, KIMS, SBC-80-10 BY INTEL YEARS >>1975-1982 DECS, JUPER-II BY WAVE MATE. I WILL PAY UP TO 200+ FOR CSOME > >I should have actually read the ad. I'm *really* sorry to have wasted >everone's time with this. Roger, I didn't mean to be critical. You had good intentions. > >>Classifieds2000 is a waste of time IMO. > >I'm beginning to think so too. Did you see the ad on there for the KayPro 4 on there for $10,000 ! Honest! I'm not making this up! Gee, my Altair must be worth millions! I wish! Joe > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 2 17:20:00 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980102152000.00722084@agora.rdrop.com> Let's start the new year off with an interesting one, eh? Since it seems that there are as many people out there looking for Altairs as are looking for PDP-8's, and the original PDP-8 ('straight' 8) is the one major model of the line that seems to keep eluding me, I'm offering the following: --- One electronically restored and functional MITS Altair 8800 (the original, not the later 'a' or 'b' series), 16k of static memory, MITS serial card, complete documentation set, and a set of MITS (Microsoft) Altair BASIC paper tapes (4k, 8k, 12k version) and other paper tape based utilities. (NOTE: memory is non-MITS, docs may be mix of original and reprints) In trade for: One Digital Equipment Corporpation PDP-8 (original, not later 'i', 'e', etc... series), with 4k or more of core, and serial (teletype) control. Any additional options welcome. Desktop configuration desired, but rackmount configuration perfectly acceptable. Documentation and engineering prints desired as is any original software (diags, languages, etc.), but lack of same does not disqualify. Functional unit desired, but non-functional units will be considered as long as they are complete (all cards, modules, etc.) and have no unusual physical damage. Shipping/delivery arrangements for both units to be discussed separately. Location of unit may be a consideration. (my location: Beaverton Oregon) Any takers? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 2 17:32:45 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980102153245.0378d0f8@agora.rdrop.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980102/47fcbcfd/attachment.bin From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Jan 2 18:41:27 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980102152000.00722084@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Well dernit =-) I just worked out a deal so that I'll be retrieving *3* PDP-8/Is in the next two weeks, weather permitting. Yes, that's right...*3* of them. =-) And possibly an 11/34A (wee hoo) and some other gear as well as documentation. Also a Linc, which I'm ashamed to admit I'm much less familiar with though I have seen mention of it on some of the other web pages. (I'll be researching that!) Ummmmm...yeah...the uh 'I' WAS the Straight 8! Yeah that's the ticket! Wanna trade, Jim? =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > Since it seems that there are as many people out there looking for Altairs > as are looking for PDP-8's, and the original PDP-8 ('straight' 8) is the > one major model of the line that seems to keep eluding me, I'm offering the > following: > > --- > > One electronically restored and functional MITS Altair 8800 (the original, > not the later 'a' or 'b' series), 16k of static memory, MITS serial card, > complete documentation set, and a set of MITS (Microsoft) Altair BASIC > paper tapes (4k, 8k, 12k version) and other paper tape based utilities. > (NOTE: memory is non-MITS, docs may be mix of original and reprints) > > In trade for: > > One Digital Equipment Corporpation PDP-8 (original, not later 'i', 'e', > etc... series), with 4k or more of core, and serial (teletype) control. > Any additional options welcome. Desktop configuration desired, but > rackmount configuration perfectly acceptable. Documentation and > engineering prints desired as is any original software (diags, languages, > etc.), but lack of same does not disqualify. Functional unit desired, but > non-functional units will be considered as long as they are complete (all > cards, modules, etc.) and have no unusual physical damage. From bcw at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 2 17:45:42 1998 From: bcw at u.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980102153245.0378d0f8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Holy Cow! I have $19,800 worth of Apples!!! ;) Happy new year everyone. ------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw@u.washington.edu (mail may come from alternate addresses) Classic Computers List Operator/Owner http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, James Willing wrote: > Here is one that I got today from someone offering "Rare Apple Computers > and Hardware". Seems that the prices are about as far disconnected from > reality as his web page. It's there, but has no content other than a > splash screen. (sheesh!) > > > -jim > > > >>>> > > > > Apple III - 500.00 > > Apple Lisa 2/10 w/original keyboard, mouse - 2500.00 > > Apple IIc - 300.00 > > Apple Lisa Office System Manuals - 300.00 > > Apple IIc Flat Panel Display w/manual - 500.00 > > Apple Monitor III - 60.00 > > Apple Macintosh 512K - 200.00 > > Apple Color Monitor IIc - 100.00 > > > > If interested mail me back and Thank You. > > > > Evan Casteel > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Evan Casteel Computers > > <www.televar.com/~ecasteel > > <ecasteel@televar.com > > <ecasteel@hotmail.com > > > > <<<<<<<< > > > The above quoted content has no affiliation with, nor is endorsed in any > way by me or the Computer Garage. > > > > > --- > > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 19:42:03 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <199801022105.NAA01691@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102194203.44274c20@intellistar.net> At 03:27 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >> I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >> finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering >if >> there was a PC version or port for DOS? > >Sure was. -- I've got one (no manuals, tho'). I messed with it a >little...works sorta like early Lotus. Actually I think VisiCalc WAS the early version of Lotus 123. I don't remember all the names but VisiCalc was originally developed by some guy as a school project. One of the other students liked it and bought the rights to it for something like $100 and formed Lotus Developement Corp (I think that's the right name). It was first marketed as VisiCalc and was virtually unchanged from the original project software except for being ported to different systems. Later the name was changed to Lotus 123 and the product was further developed. Another case of the inventor ending up sweeping floors and a promoter becoming rich with someone else's idea. (Tesla >> George Westinghouse) (Henry >> Oliver Winchester) etc etc. Joe > >IIRC, there was one for the PCjr, too. > >manney@nwohio.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 20:24:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801022233.OAA26947@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102202402.4427bc1c@intellistar.net> At 02:33 PM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> Frank knows his HPs! I know the 200 series pretty well but he's got all >> of them down pat. > >I've been doing stuff with HPs for over 20 years now (mostly with >3000s and HP PCs), and some of it stuck. But I've never worked with >Series 200s so don't know that much about them, just what I've picked >up here and there. And I still think I have a lot to learn. Don't we all! I swear it seems like the more I learn, the more questions I have! > >Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little >company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP >3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a >product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, >WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too >-- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it >be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. > Sounds familar. I went from Pershing II missiles with RADAR guidance to a 5 foot long anti-aircraft racket with active IR quidance. No one could see any difference in them ether (specially my bosses). >Somewhere along the way I decided I wanted a windowing environment >that could handle HP terminal emulation on my desk, and after fooling >around a bit with PCs I saw some guy up in Berkeley trying to be rid >of a 9000 Series 320. So I bought it, and it was good. That sat >there 'til early 1994 when I got retreaded into a Windows device >driver kind of guy. Now I guess it's part of my collection -- it sits >in the storage closet. We'll have to compare collections. > >> FWIW the 9000 Vectra series computers (or some of them anyway) used >> 80286 CPUs and were MS-DOS compatable. > >9000 Vectra? My recollection of the Vectra family is that it's all >IBM-compatibles (well, mostly, I remember the earliest Vectras and >they were about 99% if you allowed for the HP-isms that snuck in, like >the HP-HIL interface for the keyboard and mouse, the HP keyboard with >the f1-f8 keys across the top, and the funky HP Multimode MDA/CGA That's them. >display adapter) and never was a part of the 9000 family. > Well that's what the 1987 HP catalog says. Granted they're as different as day and night. >Though I think I remember something about a coprocessor card (set?) you >could stick in ISA slot(s) to run Rocky Mountain BASIC. Of course HP >would have sold that in/for Vectra boxes. THAT sounds interesting! I like to get one of those boards. > >> NOW My turn. Does anyone know exactly what a 9000 217 model is? I found >> one but I've neverheard of it before and it's not in any of my catalogs. > >Every once in a while I see a flavor of 9000/200 that is built into or >around an HP 2382 terminal housing: small, beige skin, brown bezel around >9" monochrome CRT. I think some of the ones I've seen were hooked up >to 91[23]x disk drives, and can't remember whether the processor was in >a similarly-sized box or in the terminal. Could that be it? That sounds more like the 9000 216 aka 9816. Look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg" and see if that looks like what you're thinking of. This was a box about the size of a 9133 disk drive and had 8? expansion slots in the back and no attached monitor or keybaord. it said 9000 217 on the front top corner. BTW Do you know where I can get a keyboard for a 9816? Do you know if any of the other keyboards will work on it? I have a bunch of HP-HIL keyboards and they use that same style connector. I'm not sure if it's the same size or number of contacts though. I do know that the 9816 keyboard has one latch on top and the HIL keybaord has two latchs, one on each side. > >I think the HP Integral PC was also the HP 9000/207 though I don't know >if it was ever sold under that name. I have heard it called a 9807, ONCE. It's also shown as a 9807 in the '87 catalog. The IPC is one of my favorites! I have two of them and lots of software. If you run across any IPCs or accessories or software, I'M INTERESTED! > >-Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) > Joe > From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jan 2 18:45:25 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030057.QAA22338@mx4.u.washington.edu> > Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was unfortunately > what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which was > first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased out. I've used MSW on XT's (even a PC), and I don't remember its being all that slow. What were you doing? Editing War & Peace? > MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong here, > I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) I think they're pretty quick (faster than the IBM XT, anyway!) From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 2 14:34:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801030057.QAA22338@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199801030130.UAA21977@mail.cgocable.net> > > Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was > unfortunately > > what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a > > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which > was > > first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased > out. Have you forgotten to turn on the turbo function? Some clones defaults to 4.77mhz instead of 8mhz especially if it has no turbo switch and have faster cpu in it. > I've used MSW on XT's (even a PC), and I don't remember its being all that > slow. What were you doing? Editing War & Peace? > > > MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong > here, > > I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) (!!) It pauses a bit on first key press when starting off right after startup. If you're working from floppy, that is expected to have lot of pauses but very little if any if working from HD. I'm heavy user and know more of works than most s/w I've is works 2.0 for my primary WP work banging away reams of college paper as late as couple of years ago on that Luddite and on former 486, and I still have that s/w sitting on my P5's HD! It's cool to fit whole thing on one 1.44 floppy. This works 2.0 is best example of user interface without interrupting your train of thought and look as you go...And no playing games of guessing buried in GUI menus, waiting for fancy features to load in on demand. And keep that hands on that keyboard is BIG plus especially without fuction keys and mouse. And another good example was News Xpress had same user interface but the next version totally lost it, using windows crap. :( That is one another big reason I'm looking at linux ongoing basis. Right now I do not wish to break off win95 yet as I have not yet explored all the linux and it's s/w. Right now, thinking what is best way to intergate the linux into my main P5 using lilo and whole 1GB hd as home for linux in my 3hd/cdrom configuration. Oh about the works, one thing for certain, M/S did not begat this original works code. I've the lotus smartsuite 96 now, not used yet because I'm out of college for various reasons. Ugh, what a bloatware! 150+mb full install. Oh well. No problem to pass on suggestions on choice of linux like Slackware Walunt, or such that was put together properly but not so pricey as Red Hat and it's imcompatiable installer format. Jason D. > I think they're pretty quick (faster than the IBM XT, anyway!) PS: Leading edge pc's are pretty well built despite it's looks and even late case models, that ones that is 5" tall desktop we're able to upgrade them with standard 486 and pentiums in them. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 2 19:57:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030157.AA19327@world.std.com> <> > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, w I have a Leading Edge model D here in active use. Nice machine and locked (no turbo) to 4.77mhz. Mine has had a hard disk controller added and a souped up floppy controller to do 1.44 3.5". That and a V20 it's stock and runs well. Save fpr I'm using it for other things I've had Win3.0 running on it and it's not that bad considering. Currently it has Wordperfect works on it and it's very useful for text work. Allison From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 20:48:45 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: Another thing: I saw a copy of Lotus 123 for the Rainbow 100. Anyone want that? In a message dated 98-01-02 19:06:16 EST, you write: << Actually I think VisiCalc WAS the early version of Lotus 123. I don't remember all the names but VisiCalc was originally developed by some guy as a school project. One of the other students liked it and bought the rights to it for something like $100 and formed Lotus Developement Corp (I think that's the right name). It was first marketed as VisiCalc and was virtually unchanged from the original project software except for being ported to different systems. Later the name was changed to Lotus 123 and the product was further developed. Another case of the inventor ending up sweeping floors and a promoter becoming rich with someone else's idea. (Tesla >> George Westinghouse) (Henry >> Oliver Winchester) etc etc. >> From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 20:50:58 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <2cef377d.34ada795@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-02 20:03:36 EST, you write: << > Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was unfortunately > what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which was > first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased out. I've used MSW on XT's (even a PC), and I don't remember its being all that slow. What were you doing? Editing War & Peace? > MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong here, > I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) I think they're pretty quick (faster than the IBM XT, anyway!) >> Actually, It took a few minutes for works even to start up! We were editing one-page documents. The Leading Edge Model D I have had two experiences with. In one case it was ENIAC-speed (clock? oh, yeah, it's 3:30!) and the other it was 286-speed. From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Jan 2 20:54:17 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: DECmate III / RX50 question Message-ID: <000201bd17f2$e648d820$54987c0a@office1> Two quick questions: 1. What is a disk substitution for a DEC RX-50 diskette? 2. How can you get a DECmate terminal working as a regular "dumb" terminal in stead of a word processor? TIA! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 2 21:18:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) They used to do that with older games that were originally in 4-color CGA, going back and redoing them in VGA 256 color. Just a few though. Space Quest springs to mind... - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 2 21:34:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Classifieds2000 apology Message-ID: <199801030334.WAA05722@server1.netpath.net> At 07:13 PM 1/2/98, you wrote: > Did you see the ad on there for the KayPro 4 on there for $10,000 ! >Honest! I'm not making this up! Gee, my Altair must be worth millions! >I wish! Some yahoo on www.haggle.com had an Apple Lisa listed for $15,000.00. People collect these old machines, but not for the money, for the nostalgia mostly. At least that's how it is in my case, although I do use some of my machines on a daily basis. (Mostly for playing my collection of ancient games that just seem to run like greased electrons on my Cyrix 200 system. :) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 2 21:34:52 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! Message-ID: <199801030334.WAA05736@server1.netpath.net> At 03:32 PM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >Here is one that I got today from someone offering "Rare Apple Computers and Hardware". Seems that the prices are about as far disconnected from reality as his web page. It's there, but has no content other than a splash screen. >Apple Macintosh 512K - 200.00 I feel so stupid... I sold a Mac 512ke for $40 about 3 months ago. Man, I better go update my prices... I'm sitting on a fortune!!!! - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 2 21:38:41 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: <34ADB2C1.A911AE87@cnct.com> Zeus334 wrote: > Er....one question here. I've tried Linux many times, as well as Minix. From > all of my attempts, I have come to the following conclusion: Linux is not for > doing USEFUL things. The express purpose of Linux is to provide something for > people to recompile. After all, you HAVEN'T seen people doing something on > Linux besides recompiling the kernel and configuring TCP/IP stacks, HAVE YOU? 'scuse me son, but this AST system I use for day-to-day stuff is only allowed to boot Microslough on the (rare) occasions I feel like playing a game. Otherwise it (this week) is normally running Caldera OpenLinux with the RedHat CDE and Netscape 4.03 to talk to the world through a DIP/Slirp connection to my ISP. Correct, I've recompiled the kernel, to leave out a bunch of device drivers I didn't need and to add (as modules) a few that come in handy -- like the one that runs my Zip drive. It may seem strange to a Windows user, but vi is my main editor (fifteen years now), because I don't care for the unnecessary 90% of the features in modern word processors -- I edit, then I set things up for output later, without the distraction of all of the crap at the top of the screen with MS Word in _any_ release since Word for DOS 1.0. And I use that same vi editor on my AT&T 7300, my Tandy 6000 and (courtesy of MKS) on all of my DOS boxen. Oh, and on my Sun and on my OS-9 Level II Color Computer III (under the name TRS-Edit) and probably one or two other machines out of sight elsewhere in the house. For those interested, the MKS toolkit for MS-DOS worked from day one on the Tandy 2000 with its 80186. And while I haven't tested it myself, I am told by a reliable source that it runs on the DEC Rainbow under MS-DOS. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 2 16:45:19 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <199801030341.WAA14740@mail.cgocable.net> > At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all > >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) > > They used to do that with older games that were originally in 4-color CGA, > going back and redoing them in VGA 256 color. Just a few though. Space Quest > springs to mind... Hee hee...I just got space quest collection series for christmas. Yup, that was there are 2 types of original sq1 and sq1 vga versions. But remember, this first one did not have sound built in and the sound blaster card did not exist at that time! I enjoy playing these type of games. Oh, coloring those b/w shows and movies ruined it because quality and appearance looked offish to me. The original NTSC b/w is what is original format designed for TV's in old days and it looked better due to greater bandwith. Color info crowds out the actual video at expense of detail. Again 525 lines in NTSC standard is not enough for color but remember that was very acceptable and superb for b/w applicatons. To prove this, my brother is pretty good hobby photographer preferring b/w and we're stunned by how much detail and "seems sharper" in those photos. Even finest color photos through created with thousands of dollars worth of equipment did not equal to this one. IMHO Jason D. > > > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > > > > From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Fri Jan 2 21:41:23 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980102153245.0378d0f8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: >Here is one that I got today from someone offering "Rare Apple Computers >and Hardware". Seems that the prices are about as far disconnected from >reality as his web page. It's there, but has no content other than a >splash screen. (sheesh!) >>Apple IIc - 300.00 A friend got one from GoodWill for $15. >>Apple Macintosh 512K - 200.00 I got a nice one for $15, and a few semi-working ones for free. What are these, clearance prices from when these models were discontinued? Geez... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 2 22:38:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: Message-ID: <34ADC0E3.5064D086@cnct.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > Second, there are applications...I believe WordPerfect is available for > Linux as well as many other WSIWYG programs. I don't use them on my > Linux box because I prefer to have it do useful things. WordPerfect 6 is available for Linux -- in some incarnations it has been packaged with Caldera's higher-end configuration. Beyond that, I can't say, as I hate WordPerfect alsost as much as I hate Word. > > Third, I think you need to pick up a copy of Linux Journal as it has > listings for commercial software etc. A very useful magazine. I've been getting it since about the third issue. > > That was the end of my last try at Linux, a few months ago. I have a Slackware > > Linux CD with Kernels up to 1.3.12. I now have T-1 access, though, so if you > > can suggest a system which COULD BE A VIABLE REPLACEMENT FOR MacOS OR WINDOWS, My (pick your service) 386/25 server is the only one I've still got running that old a kernel -- it's stable and I see no need to change that one. Everything else is at kernel 2.0.x. > Linux isn't a replacement for MacOS or Windows...it goes FAR BEYOND the > capabilities of either. Certainly you can use it for word processing, > using the WordPerfect etc mentioned above, but Linux boxes are serious > business machines that can represent thousands of dollars in revenues to > a business that uses it. Linux _is_ a replacement for MacOS or Windows. It provides utility that Apple and Micro$oft can't approach. And it doesn't crash anywhere near as often -- that 386/25 hasn't been rebooted since except when the local power company can't deal with the weather, since I haven't been allowed to budget a UPS by she-who-must-be-obeyed. > Keep in mind that there's a trade-off between flexibility and > ease-of-use. Linux will never be as easy to install as Windows 95. It > isn't intended for that purpose. It's far too powerful and flexible for > that and assumes that the user wants to go beyond mere word processing. Like the old quote about Unix in general -- Linux is just as user friendly as any other OS, it's just not as promiscuous about who it's friendly with. This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups supply corrals for that gunfight. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From KFergason at aol.com Fri Jan 2 22:28:40 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <4ef0113.34adbe7a@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-02 17:36:09 EST, you write: << Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP 3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too -- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. >> Oh cool. from 89-92, I managed 2 500's, a 540 and a 560. I don't remember the exact differences between the two. but, they were great. we had the wollongong software on them. my favorite was the 400 Mb had disk that looked and sounded like a dishwasher. Kelly From william at ans.net Fri Jan 2 23:40:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well dernit =-) I just worked out a deal so that I'll be retrieving > *3* PDP-8/Is in the next two weeks, weather permitting. Yes, that's > right...*3* of them. =-) Three more saved from the brink... > Also a Linc, which I'm ashamed to > admit I'm much less familiar with though I have seen mention of it on > some of the other web pages. (I'll be researching that!) A LINC!!???!?!?! If it is an honest to goodness original LINC (made by DEC or someone else), get that before the PDP-8/Is! They are incredibly rare. A bit later DEC merged a LINC with a Straight-8 to make a LINC-8, also a very rare machine (I know of three survivors of a little over a hundred made, all around 1967). Those in turn begat the PDP-12s, esentially PDP-8/Is merged with LINCs. Or it could be a LINC that is something completely different... Keep us informed! William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 2 23:47:54 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc References: <3.0.1.16.19980102194203.44274c20@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34ADD10A.C1574EF2@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > Actually I think VisiCalc WAS the early version of Lotus 123. I don't > remember all the names but VisiCalc was originally developed by some guy as > a school project. One of the other students liked it and bought the rights > to it for something like $100 and formed Lotus Developement Corp (I think > that's the right name). It was first marketed as VisiCalc and was > virtually unchanged from the original project software except for being > ported to different systems. Later the name was changed to Lotus 123 and > the product was further developed. Another case of the inventor ending up > sweeping floors and a promoter becoming rich with someone else's idea. > (Tesla >> George Westinghouse) (Henry >> Oliver Winchester) etc etc. Actually Lotus (and SuperCalc for CP/M) were look/feel clones of VisiCalc. VisiCalc was originally written in Apple _Integer_ BASIC and then later converted to 6502 assembly. More than Xerox, it's responsible for the existence of the Mac: if not for VisiCalc, Apple would have been bankrupted out of the computer business by 1981, but the very existence of VisiCalc sold a shitload of Apples. And by concatenation, VisiCalc is responsible for Windows. VisiCalc versus Lotus was the first look/feel copyright battle, long before Apple sued Microsoft over concepts they got from Xerox. The winner was VisiCalc, but fat lot of good it did. Eventually, Lotus bought all rights to VisiCalc and buried it. SuperCalc (despite the best efforts of Computer Associates) is long dead, and nowadays about all desktop spreadsheeting (by other than us Unix junkies) in done with Micro$oft Exc(rement)ell. And I say this as a guy who learned on the TRS-80 version of VisiCalc but whose preferred spreadsheet program is (Micro$oft) MultiPlan, which still works fine on a Z-80 and a MC68010. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jan 2 23:47:21 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. Message-ID: <01bd180b$0f9d0ee0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Most of the tandy printers where serial. Does the DMP have a DIN cable, a D cable or a Centronics cable. Most had a serial DIN cable and you would have to make a custom cable that went from a PC"s serial port to the DIN on the printer. If it's a D connector you should be able to use a straight through serial cable. Getting it to talk, will be the next interesting part. Im not sure how they communicated, but you might be able to get at least text out of it. Let me know how it comes out. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Deschamps To: Multiple recipients of list COCO Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 4:45 PM Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the manual, >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the manual. >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and which >driver did you use in Windows? > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to a >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, which >part number >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? > >Many thanks!!! > From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jan 2 23:49:38 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B Message-ID: <01bd180b$61089060$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Hey guess what, very odd. If you have the cart's in and you boot to a normal plain old DOS disk, just type 123 and it Loads!! YES! Don't know how the heck it does it, but it does work. -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 01, 1998 5:59 PM Subject: Re: PCjr Lotus carts A and B >;-) Bill Girnius head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >>I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a >>stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted? > >I'm quite sure that there is a boot disk that's needed as well, but I could >never get my Jr's to spew out video very well... :-( > >HTH, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, >Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* >zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > From pvhp at forte.com Fri Jan 2 23:51:17 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <9801030551.AA16114@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu, fmc@reanimators.org Subj: Re: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Frank McConnell wrote: >I've been doing stuff with HPs for over 20 years now (mostly with >3000s and HP PCs), and some of it stuck. But I've never worked with >Series 200s so don't know that much about them, just what I've picked >up here and there. And I still think I have a lot to learn. > >Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little >company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP >3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a >product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, >WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too >-- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it >be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. >-Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) > I am brimming with curiosity about the MPE OS: What is it like? Having tried to glean some info from the HP web site I can only surmise that the target market is mid to large businesses and might be comparable to IBM AS/400 or Mainframe type computing environments. Am I right? If that is the case I am curious: does MPE run with ASCII or EBCDIC character sets? Does MPE support a UNIX like environment - even as an option? What is the shell like? What is the C compiler like? Editors? In short - what is MPE like? How long has it been on the market? Sorry, but I have never personally known anyone/anyplace that runs MPE, until I came across a UC campus with a web site that several MPE freeware packages available. However, from that (as well as any possible newsgroups) it is difficult to determine what the OS is like for the user/admin/programmer and I would appreciate some info. Thanks very much to anyone who can respond. Peter Prymmer From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 2 23:53:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34ADC0E3.5064D086@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: >This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. >Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an Well, Linux does run on 10+ year old systems, so on that basis this might be an OK subject. For example, my Amiga 2000's are over ten years old I believe, and with the proper accelerator they can run Linux. In fact with the proper accelerator Linux will scream on them! Same with my VAXstation (if I ever get my hands on a Hard Drive for it), I don't think it will run Linux, but it will run it's cousin OpenBSD (well at least one of those BSDish variants, who can keep track of them). An original IBM PC is capable of running Linux in the form of ELKS I believe. This is probably more the way in which we should be looking at Linux, instead of argueing it's merits (yes, I know I'm one of those argueing). >item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars >between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups >supply corrals for that gunfight. This on the otherhand is definitly not a correct topic for the mailing list, and yes, I think this fact is mentioned in the FAQ. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 00:00:45 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Game Speeds (was Re: Classifieds2000 apology) In-Reply-To: <199801030334.WAA05722@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: >At least that's how it is in my case, although I do use some of my machines >on a daily basis. (Mostly for playing my collection of ancient games that >just seem to run like greased electrons on my Cyrix 200 system. :) Heh, heh. Want real fun, try playing the original DOS version of Falcon on that Cyrix. Talk about poor programming, on a 286 it was pretty much unplayable, which brought about Falcon AT. On a 386sx/16 you were dead from crashing before you knew you had started playing! I remember Wing Commander on that same 386sx/16 was pretty awsome, but way to fast for me at least on my 486DX/33 when I got it. On the otherhand, something like Master of Orion just gets better with faster systems! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 3 01:06:48 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Three more saved from the brink... > > > Also a Linc, which I'm ashamed to > > admit I'm much less familiar with though I have seen mention of it on > > some of the other web pages. (I'll be researching that!) > > A LINC!!???!?!?! > Like I said....I'd heard of it...didn't realize that only 40 some were actually ever built. I *WILL* be grabbing that for certain! =-) It sounds like I can grab 3 - PDP-8/i 1 - PDP-11/34A 1 - Linc or Linc-8 (wasn't clear which) > If it is an honest to goodness original LINC (made by DEC or someone > else), get that before the PDP-8/Is! They are incredibly rare. A bit later > DEC merged a LINC with a Straight-8 to make a LINC-8, also a very rare > machine (I know of three survivors of a little over a hundred made, all > around 1967). Those in turn begat the PDP-12s, esentially PDP-8/Is merged > with LINCs. I'll be grabbing it but I don't want to act TOO excited about it to the guy I'm getting it from. He offered it all to me for free. I think I'll take him a bottle of champagne to share with his wife or something. =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 3 01:11:40 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. > >Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an > > Well, Linux does run on 10+ year old systems, so on that basis this might > be an OK subject. For example, my Amiga 2000's are over ten years old I > believe, and with the proper accelerator they can run Linux. In fact with > it's merits (yes, I know I'm one of those argueing). > > >item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars > >between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups > >supply corrals for that gunfight. > > This on the otherhand is definitly not a correct topic for the mailing > list, and yes, I think this fact is mentioned in the FAQ. Well, I'm not sure that Wind-blows is really an appropriate topic either but I see people talking about it all the time. I doubt it will 'piss' Bill off since we're talking about how Linux can be used to 'resurrect' ancient and obsolete hardware like 386sx's and so on. Although it's not Altairs, I think it is in the spirit of what we're all about. Heck, every day I wonder why there isn't a Linux PDP-11 port. =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 00:11:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34ADD68D.B5B6DD9E@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all > >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) > > They used to do that with older games that were originally in 4-color CGA, > going back and redoing them in VGA 256 color. Just a few though. Space Quest > springs to mind... And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've never been good at arcade games). -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 3 00:13:57 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:24:02 References: <3.0.1.16.19980102202402.4427bc1c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801030613.WAA10985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote (after me): > >Every once in a while I see a flavor of 9000/200 that is built into or > >around an HP 2382 terminal housing: small, beige skin, brown bezel around > >9" monochrome CRT. > > That sounds more like the 9000 216 aka 9816. Look at > "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg" and see if that looks like > what you're thinking of. Yep, that is what I was thinking of. > This was a box about the size of a 9133 disk > drive and had 8? expansion slots in the back and no attached monitor or > keybaord. it said 9000 217 on the front top corner. Hmm. I'm going to have to pull my old /320 out to look at it, but that was about the same cross-section, only deeper than the 9133. The CPU plugs into the bottom slot (and has a special connector), then there are several DIO slots above it. > BTW Do you know where I can get a keyboard for a 9816? Do you know if any > of the other keyboards will work on it? I have a bunch of HP-HIL keyboards > and they use that same style connector. I'm not sure if it's the same size > or number of contacts though. I do know that the 9816 keyboard has one > latch on top and the HIL keybaord has two latchs, one on each side. The 9816 keyboard in your picture looks something like the small/standard 2382 keyboard, except the 2382 keyboard has wider function keys across the top row (typical HP terminal) and doesn't have the knob. The 2382 keyboard had a similar modular connector and was not HP-HIL. I don't think I'd chance it. You might want to ask on comp.sys.hp.{hardware,misc} and see if anyone there knows. [Integral PC] > I have heard it called a 9807, ONCE. It's also shown as a 9807 in the > '87 catalog. The IPC is one of my favorites! I have two of them and lots > of software. If you run across any IPCs or accessories or software, I'M > INTERESTED! Yep, they are fun boxes. Unfortunately the only spare bit I have for one right now is a 256KB RAM card. Hmm, what would I like to find? Technical BASIC. I gather it installs into the ROM cartridge in the back of the machine. Mine just seems to have the System V version of HP-UX for the IPC. -Frank McConnell From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 00:32:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. References: <01bd180b$0f9d0ee0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <34ADDB85.6564786D@cnct.com> Bill Girnius wrote: > > Most of the tandy printers where serial. Does the DMP have a DIN cable, a No, _most_ Tandy printers were parallel. The computers theirselves had custom connectors, the other end was a Centronics-34. > D cable or a Centronics cable. Most had a serial DIN cable and you would > have to make a custom cable that went from a PC"s serial port to the DIN on > the printer. If it's a D connector you should be able to use a straight > through serial cable. Getting it to talk, will be the next interesting > part. Im not sure how they communicated, but you might be able to get at > least text out of it. Let me know how it comes out. The DIN cable was strictly for the Color Computer line. Even the printer which was almost the Siamese twin to the first Color Computers, the LP-VII, had the parallel port. And any PC comcrapable will talk to them. The only "problem" is that early Tandy printers accept a carriage return as both a carriage return and a line feed -- as the computers use that internally in text files. Tandy's later printers took a command (later a physical switch setting) so that PCs wouldn't double-space by sending both codes. All of the "DMP" printers accept this code, as do the daisy wheels starting with the DWP-IIB. Tandy supplied a device driver for their PC comcrapables to prevent the machines (and it works on other PC clones) to make PCs not send the unnecessary line-feed. > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Deschamps > To: Multiple recipients of list COCO > Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 4:45 PM > Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. > > >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel > >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the manual, > >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the manual. > >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and which > >driver did you use in Windows? > > > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to a > >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, which > >part number > >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? I don't recall the catalog number, but it's in the current catalog. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From dwalterm at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 00:59:01 1998 From: dwalterm at ix.netcom.com (Don Walterman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Sinclair Spectrum +3 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980103015901.007a54f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> I am just starting to use this 1985 Z80 computer and wonder if anyone else has one. It has a built in 3" (not 3.5") drive. Its the last of the Sinclair computers. It also runs CP/M 3.0. I'd be interested if anyone knows about a UK company called Spectre Communications that made a plug in RS232 board and comunication package for it. Don Walterman From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 01:11:37 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030711.CAA13308@server1.netpath.net> At 01:11 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on >the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux >fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've >never been good at arcade games). The best to me back then weren't the arcade games. I mean you have to admit it's a little hard to conceptualize something in a 128x48 grid. Nope, the games that did it for me back then were the text parsing adventure games (infocom, etc.) Although there were some games that never die, and I still play (Anyone remember Space War?) and of course Combat on the Atari 2600. I've got a CD full of abandonware games that I have slowly put together from websites that seem to go down as fast as they come up. There are ancient games on that CD that I have never played. Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm are they? - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 3 01:52:43 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: pvhp@forte.com's message of Fri, 2 Jan 98 21:51:17 PST References: <9801030551.AA16114@forte.com> Message-ID: <199801030752.XAA13970@daemonweed.reanimators.org> pvhp@forte.com (Peter Prymmer) wrote: > I am brimming with curiosity about the MPE OS: What is it like? ObAdvocacy: K00L3R THAN L1NUX!!!! It's stable like a rock, and doesn't need a lot of maintenance. You want a system that can stay up for a year? Choose MPE. > Having tried to glean some info from the HP web site I can only > surmise that the target market is mid to large businesses and > might be comparable to IBM AS/400 or Mainframe type computing > environments. Am I right? Yep, pretty much. Historically, 3000s have been aimed at transaction-processing environments. There have been efforts to push 3000s into office automation roles but they really didn't stick, both because PCs got cheap and because 3000s (particularly the classics) really didn't do interactive character terminal I/O very well. > If that is the case I am curious: does MPE run with ASCII or EBCDIC > character sets? ASCII. But there's some presumption (in many applications, including some of the configuration tools) that you will be using an HP terminal that supports block mode, which (approximately) lets the application use the terminal's memory as a buffer for a form, so that the user can do his editing in the terminal then transmit the completed form to the 3000 in a fast block transfer. > Does MPE support a UNIX like environment - even as an option? If you're running MPE/iX, yes. :RUN SH.HPBIN.SYS and you will get a $ prompt. > What is the shell like? The MPE command interpreter...well, I can't speak for the MPE/iX CI. I haven't used it enough. The classic MPE CI is not really like a Unix shell -- there are a bunch of internal commands that look like they do their own filename globbing depending on whether they handle filesets or not, there aren't really pipes (instead there are "message files" which are sort of record-structured FIFOs with disc-file backing store). > What is the C compiler like? For MPE/iX, it's available and seems to be a somewhat modern C compiler for PA-RISC 1.0. GCC has also been ported to MPE/iX. At Wollongong, we used a third-party C compiler that sometimes made me wish SPL supported structure/record declarations. It was a slow compiler, and it had a really conservative approach to addressing modes...though I managed to find ways around some of its conservatism. > Editors? Well, you get EDIT/3000, which is a line-oriented editor that is suitable for use on all manner of terminals, even the printing ones. I believe someone ported MicroEMACS to MPE/iX a while back, and you definitely get vi with it. There are also several third-party editors, some in the Interex contributed software library (e.g. QUAD, which includes a pseudo-screen editing mode) and some commercial (e.g. Robelle's QEDIT, which lots of 3000 folks swear by). > How long has it been on the market? 25 years. -Frank McConnell From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 02:07:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <199801030711.CAA13308@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34ADF1B1.CC3AD1D@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 01:11 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on > >the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux > >fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've > >never been good at arcade games). > > The best to me back then weren't the arcade games. I mean you have to admit > it's a little hard to conceptualize something in a 128x48 grid. Nope, the > games that did it for me back then were the text parsing adventure games > (infocom, etc.) Although there were some games that never die, and I still > play (Anyone remember Space War?) and of course Combat on the Atari 2600. > I've got a CD full of abandonware games that I have slowly put together from > websites that seem to go down as fast as they come up. There are ancient > games on that CD that I have never played. That 128x48 monochrome grid let stuff move like a bat out of Chicago. Amazing how smoothly low-res graphics animates when you're distracted and trying not to get killed. Spacewar was my favorite game ever (though Missile Command came close a year or two later). My running partner and me used to hog that machine at the Saint James Infirmary in Sunnyvale for hours back in '78-'79, sending somebody over to grab us a fresh pitcher every once in a while. And yes, I love the old text adventures. Brains, not reflexes. These days, the closest you can get is when Altavista changes its search engine syntax _again_ and you've got to find out how to track down some actual information. So of _course_ my Linux box has the interpreters for Infocom and Scott Adams adventures at full power. Plus Rogue, Nethack, old Hack, Omega, and a gagload of other old "travel to strange lands, meet strange creatures, and kill or be killed by them". I'll admit I enjoy the first level of Doom (the only level I've been on -- no reflexes, I dies easy), especially since the novels came out co-written by my old friend Brad Lineaweaver. > > Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software > cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's > computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt > todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be > freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase > productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm > are they? > Activision was selling the Infocom library within the last year -- they might still be doing so. A CD with all of the old clues (like the postcards from "Planetfall" and the comic book from "Leather Goddesses of Phobos") as graphics, except for the scratch'n'sniff bits. I'll admit that the Big-5 arcade stuff was never ported by the boys in Van Nuys -- but they do run well through the emulators on WinDoze and Unix systems. And unless the author (or corporate copyright holder) actually releases the product, there's nothing we can ethically do to hurry the process. I'm that weird sort of libertarian who considers intellectual property rights to be even more sacred than geographic property rights. Accept what is freely given -- but don't get pushy. You are always free to write your own version. And then sell it. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 01:58:58 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34ADD68D.B5B6DD9E@cnct.com> References: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: >And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on >the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux >fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've >never been good at arcade games). Omega Race on either the Vic-20 or Commodore 64! Without a doubt the greatest arcade game ever! I to suck at video games, but I'm amazed by how much better I'm able to do now with a C-64 running Omega Race (I've not been able to get another copy for the Vic) and a pair of Atari game paddles! Those game paddles seem to make all the difference. Sorry, I refuse to believe I've actually gotten better at the game after taking a 10+ year break :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 09:03:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: HP 85 printer belt PN Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103090339.44971004@intellistar.net> I don't remember who asked for the part number for the HP 85 printer drive belt but I finally dug out my service manual and found the numbers. There are two belts in the printer. One drives the carriage and is PN 1500-0529. The other drives the paper advance and is PN 1500-0572. If one is bad you should go ahead and replace both. During the week you can call HP's automated ordering line at 1-800-227-8164 and order them if they're still available. Let me know if these are still available and what they cost. If you can't get them, let me know and I'll open up one of my 85s and measure the belts and to to match them up with something from Small Parts Inc or one of the other companies. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 09:41:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103094131.2af7fa4e@intellistar.net> At 01:06 AM 1/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >> >> A LINC!!???!?!?! >> > >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > >PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep >THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D > > That's even better, that way it will be all packed and ready. Just tell us where your basement is :-) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 09:54:08 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff Now HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <199801030613.WAA10985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103095408.2af7c244@intellistar.net> > >[Integral PC] > > >Yep, they are fun boxes. Unfortunately the only spare bit I have for one >right now is a 256KB RAM card. > >Hmm, what would I like to find? Technical BASIC. I gather it installs into >the ROM cartridge in the back of the machine. Mine just seems to have the >System V version of HP-UX for the IPC. Yeap, it plugs into the socket under the panel on the back. I have one Tech BASIC ROM, also have TWO! System Engineering ROMs (Unix in a ROM) and even have a Service ROM. I also have Tech BASIC on disk. Now you just need to find an Integral! BTW I found a HP 7912 at a surplus store. It's about 18" wide and 2 foot deep and three foot tall. I *think* it's a 600+ Meg hard drive with a built-in tape drive. Do you know for sure? I need a couple of external hard drives if you know where I can find one. I'd rather have something like a 9133, 7959 etc instead of a monster like the 7912! > >-Frank McConnell > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 10:01:51 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801030711.CAA13308@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103100151.2af7b79c@intellistar.net> At 02:11 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software >cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's >computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt >todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be >freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase >productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm >are they? > > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? Joe From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 08:45:13 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems Message-ID: <199801031445.JAA04475@server1.netpath.net> At 10:01 AM 1/3/98, you wrote: > While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy >old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless >with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all >sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if >we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? They care because they can keep a xerox copy of those manuals around to sell to us for the unholy figure of $35-$50 if someone ever actually asks them for one. (Not naming names, but one company that does this rhymes with Sandy.) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 10:53:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801031445.JAA04475@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103105346.46875eae@intellistar.net> At 09:45 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:01 AM 1/3/98, you wrote: > >> While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy >>old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless >>with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all >>sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if >>we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? > >They care because they can keep a xerox copy of those manuals around to sell >to us for the unholy figure of $35-$50 if someone ever actually asks them >for one. (Not naming names, but one company that does this rhymes with Sandy.) > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net At least "sandy" will sell you one. Try to get one from HP. I had to argue with them to try and convince them that they ever built a 9825. The people on their parts ordering line know absoulutely nothing about their company's products. If they do have one, try to get it for $35-$50! More likely $180! Joe > > > From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Jan 3 09:51:04 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <57c9a27.34ae5e6a@aol.com> Actually, the ELKS webpage mentions that it should be technically possible and not-too-difficult to port ELKS to PDP-11 In a message dated 98-01-03 01:08:46 EST, you write: << > >This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. > >Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an > > Well, Linux does run on 10+ year old systems, so on that basis this might > be an OK subject. For example, my Amiga 2000's are over ten years old I > believe, and with the proper accelerator they can run Linux. In fact with > it's merits (yes, I know I'm one of those argueing). > > >item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars > >between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups > >supply corrals for that gunfight. > > This on the otherhand is definitly not a correct topic for the mailing > list, and yes, I think this fact is mentioned in the FAQ. Well, I'm not sure that Wind-blows is really an appropriate topic either but I see people talking about it all the time. I doubt it will 'piss' Bill off since we're talking about how Linux can be used to 'resurrect' ancient and obsolete hardware like 386sx's and so on. Although it's not Altairs, I think it is in the spirit of what we're all about. Heck, every day I wonder why there isn't a Linux PDP-11 port. =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton >> From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jan 3 10:07:06 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Emulator mailing list? In-Reply-To: <199801030613.WAA10985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Does any one know of classic computer or gameconsole emulator e-mail mailing list? I was subscribed to one, that discussed MAME to a large extent, but have since been unsubscribed and I can't seem to get back. Please send me any details if you know of such list servs. Thanks, CORD ############################################################################## # Cord G. Coslor -- P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE # # (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 # # Classic computer software and hardware collector # # Autograph collector # ############################################################################## #The##/ ___ /#/ ___ /##/ ___ /#/ /##/ /#/_ __/#/ /#/ /#/ _____## #####/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /##/ /##/__/#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /####### ####/ ___ /#/ _ __/##/ /#######/ ___ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ _____/### ###/ /##/ /#/ /#\ \###/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /######### ##/__/##/__/#/_/###\_\#/________/#/__/##/__/#/______/#/_______/#/________/#### ############################################################################## From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jan 3 10:26:13 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Sinclair Spectrum +3 References: <3.0.5.32.19980103015901.007a54f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <34AE66A5.7E5B@ndirect.co.uk> Don Walterman wrote: > > I am just starting to use this 1985 Z80 computer and wonder if > anyone else has one. It has a built in 3" (not 3.5") drive. > Its the last of the Sinclair computers. It also runs CP/M 3.0. > I'd be interested if anyone knows about a UK company called > Spectre Communications that made a plug in RS232 board and > comunication package for it. > > Don Walterman I think that ALL the Spectrum satellite manufacturers went with their belly up a long time ago..... enrico From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 11:26:12 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <57c9a27.34ae5e6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Zeus334 wrote: > > Actually, the ELKS webpage mentions that it should be technically possible and > not-too-difficult to port ELKS to PDP-11 V7 and BSD ran fine on the PDP-11. All it will take to port ELKS will be somebody with access to PDP-11 hardware, a working Linux system, and too much time on their hands. To quote a movie from twenty years back, "we're just the kind of (expletive deleted)s to do it. Oh, it will take more knowledge of PDP hardware than I have, so let me respond to my other email and see if we can get Allison a functional Linux system. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 3 11:29:48 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 3, 98 12:26:12 pm Message-ID: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/a7d7cdd4/attachment.ksh From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 3 12:37:00 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980103094131.2af7fa4e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > >> A LINC!!???!?!?! > > > >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > > > >PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep > >THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D > > > > > That's even better, that way it will be all packed and ready. Just tell > us where your basement is :-) > Well you'd have to get past The Attack Cats of Lurking Evil, The Pet Rats of Flailing Vengence and The Death Bunny. After that you'd have to navigate the basement without having a giant bookshelf or computer topple over on you, crushing you. After that you'd have to carry the equipment upstairs avoiding the Doorknob of Bruised Hips, The Furniture of Hunger that feeds on unwary shins and finally Steps Into The Abyss at the front porch which never seem to be where you remembered them. =-) Indiana Jones and the Computer Room of Doom Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Jan 3 12:29:01 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Ultrix/RISC 4.3 or NetBSD anyone? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103102901.00e39560@mail.wizards.net> At the risk of asking a loaded question... Thanks to Jim Willing, I've become the proud(?) owner of my first DECStation 3100. As a RISC box, I'm given to understand it will only run Ultrix and NetBSD (is there a Linux port for it?) With that in mind... does anyone happen to have: * An Ultrix 4.3/RISC or higher CD that they can loan me long enough to install? * Suggestions for where to obtain NetBSD on bootable CD-ROM? * A guide for creating a bootable CD-ROM using NetBSD files downloaded from the 'net? (I have a Yamaha CD writer). Thanks in advance. Thanks again to Jim. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 3 12:42:53 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff Now HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:54:08 References: <3.0.1.16.19980103095408.2af7c244@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801031842.KAA06993@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > Yeap, it plugs into the socket under the panel on the back. I have one > Tech BASIC ROM, also have TWO! System Engineering ROMs (Unix in a ROM) and > even have a Service ROM. I also have Tech BASIC on disk. Now you just need > to find an Integral! Very cool! Where did you find those ROMs? I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do something with it. Back when they were new I looked at buying one, and that seemed to be how you were expected to do things: if you actually wanted to wrangle code in C you needed the hard disk. Kind of made me wonder why they made it portable. Also I could never get a straight answer on whether the HP terminal windows were capable of block-mode (like I needed to talk to the 3000). > BTW I found a HP 7912 at a surplus store. It's about 18" wide and 2 foot > deep and three foot tall. I *think* it's a 600+ Meg hard drive with a > built-in tape drive. Do you know for sure? I need a couple of external > hard drives if you know where I can find one. I'd rather have something > like a 9133, 7959 etc instead of a monster like the 7912! 7912...I'm rusty on these, but it's nowhere near 600MB. I'm thinking more like 60 or 130MB. -Frank McConnell From dlw at neosoft.com Sat Jan 3 07:07:27 1998 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Looking for info In-Reply-To: References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801031904.NAA01177@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Anyone have any info an a Tek 6130? Also, anything on a DS200MC terminal server? I don't know if these are classic or modern. Thanks. From weese at mind.net Sat Jan 3 14:05:28 1998 From: weese at mind.net (Lynn & Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <199801032007.MAA09206@one.mind.net> > Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go 1%, & God went the other 99. So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... Regards, ---mikey From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Jan 3 14:38:48 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <31f6f0ed.34aea1dc@aol.com> Um, I'm not sure what you just said, but: a) I'm sure this has nothing to do with old computers, unless God stands for Graphic Output Device :) b)I think you mean that if one tries to disprove Jesus, they automatically God's followers, but,once again, I'm not sure Original Message: << > Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go 1%, & God went the other 99. So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... Regards, ---mikey >> From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 15:52:40 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Ultrix/RISC 4.3 or NetBSD anyone? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980103102901.00e39560@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: > Thanks to Jim Willing, I've become the proud(?) owner of my first >DECStation 3100. As a RISC box, I'm given to understand it will only run >Ultrix and NetBSD (is there a Linux port for it?) Should run VMS, unless it's not the 3100 I'm thinking of, and that's actually not to hard to get and only costs about $30 to get it. First get a free membership with DECUS (a simple matter of signing up), then order the Hobbiest VMS CD (requires DECUS membership and ~$30 shipping and handling). So far I've done the first part, I really need to get the CD ordered. But then I also need to get my VAXstation II/RC a new Hard Drive prior to worring about that. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 3 16:17:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032217.AA24056@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34AEB90B.F9B964D4@enterprise.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > > Thanks to Jim Willing, I've become the proud(?) owner of my first > DECStation 3100. Please ignore my prevoius ramblings. For some reason I read 'DECStation 3100' as 'VAXStation 3100' until the moment after I had clicked on Send :-( Apologies Pete From Jjcn.Garrett at btinternet.com Sat Jan 3 16:07:53 1998 From: Jjcn.Garrett at btinternet.com (Judy Garrett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 manual needed Message-ID: I am the owner of a Kaypro 10 computer kindly left to me by a deceased friend, unfortunately I have no manual which restricts my use of the computer. can you help me please? Dave From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 16:50:34 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA21913@mxu2.u.washington.edu> > Actually, It took a few minutes for works even to start up! We were editing > one-page documents. The Leading Edge Model D I have had two experiences with. > In one case it was ENIAC-speed (clock? oh, yeah, it's 3:30!) and the other it > was 286-speed. It should _fly_ on a 286. Were you running off the world's slowest HDD? (Actually, this is probably moot. As I understand you, the compooter isn't around anymore?) Anyway, mine's pretty quick. From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 16:46:09 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Old S/W (wasRe: operating systems) Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA16078@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > This works 2.0 is best example of user interface without interrupting > your train of thought and look as you go...And no playing games of > guessing buried in GUI menus, waiting for fancy features to load in > on demand. ...except that it doesn't work _exactly_ as the Win keystrokes do (I don't remember just what). > And keep that hands on that keyboard is BIG plus > especially without fuction keys and mouse. Yeah, I like that, too. The only time I use a mouse (mostly) is in drawing programs and #@$#%$ MS Schedule Plus, with which I have to use the mouse to dial a number. Stupid! > And another good example > was News Xpress had same user interface but the next version totally > lost it, using windows crap. :( That is one another big reason I'm > looking at linux ongoing basis. I have MSW 2 on my laptop, as I'm developing a spreadsheet app for a customer (old church with a non-Windows 386). It's legal to load multiple versions if you own the program. manney From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:01:50 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA19563@mx5.u.washington.edu> I note that you *N*X users mention recompiling the kernel. Is that something peculiar to the UNIX/LINUX world? Is it done by the average user? I presume (from "context clues", as my fourth grade son's homework puts it) that it provides a smaller/faster/more crashproof installation. I've always run CP/M and Bill's M$-DO$ and have no experience with UNIX. Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? manney From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:13:07 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA02132@mx4.u.washington.edu> I don't know RS stuff all that well. I'm assuming yours is a parallel printer. > >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel > >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the manual, > >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the manual. Many radio Schlock printers will work with some PC's and not others. I get the best luck with the newer motherboards (486/Pentium). > >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and which > >driver did you use in Windows? Use the "Generic" driver > > > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to a > >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, which > >part number > >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? Weren't the COCO's serial? If the DMP-100's parallel, she won't work. btw, I do have several RS "edge card" parallel cables (a la Tandy 1000) if anyone wants. Given the recent prices mentioned for Lisas and Apples, maybe I should ask $100 each for 'em! manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:20:30 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032332.PAA06715@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software > cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's > computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt > todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be > freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase > productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm > are they? Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out again. Copyrights are what? 37 years? As someone who produces intellectual property (Photos and -- occasionally -- software), I appreciate copyright protection. Can't tell you why the self appointed software cops go after 'em...maybe because they're easy? manney From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:23:50 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032332.PAA16538@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy > old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless > with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all > sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if > we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? I'll agree there. Manuals' copyrights should expire after the software is no longer supported. manney From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 17:37:24 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Interesting Floppy Controller Message-ID: Normally I wouldn't do something like this, but I suspect I'm not the only one that will find this of interest. I'm posting some of the data because the web page is almost impossibly slow! Well looking for new Amiga web pages I found a most interesting Web page about the "Catweasel Advanced Floppy Controller". It can be found at http://www.rat.de/apd/catweasl.htm basically there are two flavors, one for a standard IBM PC, and one for the Amiga. Since it's primarily for use with the Amiga the Amiga version is more advanced, but even the PC version is most interesting. I've seen these for sale by some of the Amiga companies, but I didn't realise the wide variety of formats supported. Now I'm seriously thinking about getting one for my PC and one for my Amiga! Zane Here is a list of the formats the Web page lists. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Catweasel uses standard 3.5inch and 5.25 inch floppy drives and reads the following formats: These File-systems are supported: - CBM 1541 (DOS 2A) - CBM 1571 (DOS 2A), single-sided & double-sided - Amiga OFS - Amiga OFS localised - Amiga FFS - Amiga FFS localised - PC FAT12 - PC FAT16 - PC VFAT12 - PC VFAT16 via disk-image file (and therefore also sector by sector) - CBM 1541, 5.25" single-sided 170 KB - CBM 1571, 5.25" single-sided 170 KB - CBM 1571, 5.25" double-sided 341 KB - CBM 1581, 3.5" double-sided 800 KB - Amiga, 3.5", double-sided 880 KB - Amiga, 3.5", double-sided 1760 KB - Amiga, 5.25", double-sided 880 KB - Amiga, 5.25", double-sided 1760 KB - Atari ST, 3.5", double-sided 720 KB - Atari ST, 3.5", double-sided 800 KB - Atari ST, 3.5", double-sided 1440 KB - IBM PC, 3.5", double-sided 720 KB - IBM PC, 3.5", double-sided 1440 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 360 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 720 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 800 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 1200 KB - Catweasel-Extra, 3.5", double-sided 1160 KB - Catweasel-Extra, 3.5", double-sided 2380 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", single-sided 400 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", double-sided 720 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", double-sided 800 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", double-sided 1440 KB - Apple IIe, 5.25", single-sided 140 KB (sector access only) Sinclair QL (soon:) Atari 800XL (amiga catweasel can, read-only in the moment) (not yet) Armstrad 3" (please send us a drive and some floppies) (not yet) 8 inch Floppy (please send us a drive and floppies) (not yet) Any other Shugart floppy (please send us a drive and floppies) Currently only the Amiga version can write (most of them) to disk. The PC-ISA Catweasel will be able to write in the future... only a software update is needed!! It won't be too long now! The software for the PC-ISA Version can handle 4 controllers (8 Floppy Drives!) and uses no DMA and no IRQ! | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 19:38:21 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103193821.3507109e@intellistar.net> Geez!!! What a waste! A good friend of mine was the project manager in building the shuttle launch complex at VAFB. You wouldn't believe the cost and time this took! It was built many years after the one at KSC had been built and many plans were lost and had to be redrawn EXACTLY! like the site at KSC. Same with much of the machinery, almost all was out of production and new tooling had to be built (at unlimited expense) to manufacture you guessed it, EXACTLY!, the same parts. This place cost like it was built of solid gold! AND NEVER USED! Makes me sick to think about it. Joe At 09:29 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >Like many folks on this list, I regularly look over descriptions >of government surplus auctions for good stuff. Occasionally I >find something which is too large for even me. For instance, if >anyone wants to buy a chunk of a space shuttle launch complex, they should >check out: > > http://www.gsa.gov/pbs/pr/disposal/21ee.htm > >Shipping is FOB Vandenberg AFB :-) > >Tim. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 19:42:05 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980103094131.2af7fa4e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103194205.35074a26@intellistar.net> At 12:37 PM 1/3/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >> >> A LINC!!???!?!?! >> > >> >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton >> > >> >PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep >> >THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D >> > >> > >> That's even better, that way it will be all packed and ready. Just tell >> us where your basement is :-) >> >Well you'd have to get past The Attack Cats of Lurking Evil, The Pet Rats >of Flailing Vengence and The Death Bunny. After that you'd have to >navigate the basement without having a giant bookshelf or computer topple >over on you, crushing you. After that you'd have to carry the equipment >upstairs avoiding the Doorknob of Bruised Hips, The Furniture of Hunger >that feeds on unwary shins and finally Steps Into The Abyss at the front >porch which never seem to be where you remembered them. =-) No problem. Sounds just like my house only we have Killer Parakeets as well! > >Indiana Jones and the Computer Room of Doom > >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 15:47:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 2, 98 09:53:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/54f75784/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 15:43:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. In-Reply-To: <01bd180b$0f9d0ee0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> from "Bill Girnius" at Jan 2, 98 11:47:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/258ad3d3/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Jan 3 18:12:42 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980103161242.00735964@ferrari.sfu.ca> There'd be a bit of a problem fitting this into the basement. Maybe I could erect it in the backyard... Kevin At 09:29 AM 98/01/03 -0800, you wrote: >Like many folks on this list, I regularly look over descriptions >of government surplus auctions for good stuff. Occasionally I >find something which is too large for even me. For instance, if >anyone wants to buy a chunk of a space shuttle launch complex, they should >check out: > > http://www.gsa.gov/pbs/pr/disposal/21ee.htm > >Shipping is FOB Vandenberg AFB :-) > >Tim. > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:13:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff Now HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <199801031842.KAA06993@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.1.16.19980103095408.2af7c244@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103201354.35072fb2@intellistar.net> At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> Yeap, it plugs into the socket under the panel on the back. I have one >> Tech BASIC ROM, also have TWO! System Engineering ROMs (Unix in a ROM) and >> even have a Service ROM. I also have Tech BASIC on disk. Now you just need >> to find an Integral! > >Very cool! Where did you find those ROMs? I was looking for a memory board and put some ads on the net. One guy responded and said that he had a complete system. He had bought it new and only used it for a short time before realizing that the whole world was going to the IBM PC ( ca 1985). He put it all away and didn't get it out again till I bought it. He wasn't kidding that it was complete. I got every package of software that HP sold for it, all of the service manuals (four different ones!), the service ROM, BASIC ROM, two SE ROMs, RS-232 board, 9133, memory boards, etc. Turns out that one of his friends worked for HP when HP quit supporting the IPC and he grabbed a lot of stuff that HP was going to throw out. The seals on the boxes had never been broken on most of the stuff. A guy here in town has a IPC that his company bought for him YEARS ago and he was traveling all over the world building hydro-electric dams. He gave me his old travel case for the IPC. I didn't even know that they made one. You wouldn't believe some of the places his IPC has been to! He took it into places where they had never even seen an electric light bulb! > >I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- >just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix >utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do >something with it. > >Back when they were new I looked at buying one, and that seemed to be >how you were expected to do things: if you actually wanted to wrangle >code in C you needed the hard disk. Kind of made me wonder why they >made it portable. At least it didn't require a 7912 !!! I found the 7912 specs in a catalog. It's 65 Megs and the size of a small washing machine! BTW I have HP 2602 printer that would go real well with YOUR IPC. Make you a helluva deal on it. Also I could never get a straight answer on whether >the HP terminal windows were capable of block-mode (like I needed to >talk to the 3000). I'm pretty sure it does. HP was very big on block mode terminals. I have HP Term if you need it. > >> BTW I found a HP 7912 at a surplus store. It's about 18" wide and 2 foot >> deep and three foot tall. I *think* it's a 600+ Meg hard drive with a >> built-in tape drive. Do you know for sure? I need a couple of external >> hard drives if you know where I can find one. I'd rather have something >> like a 9133, 7959 etc instead of a monster like the 7912! > >7912...I'm rusty on these, but it's nowhere near 600MB. I'm thinking >more like 60 or 130MB. It's 65! I should get it and tear it down just to figure out why it has so little capacity to be so big! > >-Frank McConnell > BTW I'm building a website. I'm putting the IPC on tonight, should be up shortly. It should be at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/integral.htm". ALSO I have instructions on how to upgrade the IPC 256K mem boards to 1 Meg if you want them. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:17:40 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980103161242.00735964@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103201740.350755d2@intellistar.net> Cool idea. That should have enough room to store all those old computers. ITOH maybe you could find someone that collects old rockets. At 04:12 PM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >There'd be a bit of a problem fitting this into the basement. Maybe I could >erect it in the backyard... > >Kevin > > >At 09:29 AM 98/01/03 -0800, you wrote: >>Like many folks on this list, I regularly look over descriptions >>of government surplus auctions for good stuff. Occasionally I >>find something which is too large for even me. For instance, if >>anyone wants to buy a chunk of a space shuttle launch complex, they should >>check out: >> >> http://www.gsa.gov/pbs/pr/disposal/21ee.htm >> >>Shipping is FOB Vandenberg AFB :-) >> >>Tim. >> >> > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 18:25:07 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <199801032319.PAA19563@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >I note that you *N*X users mention recompiling the kernel. Is that >something peculiar to the UNIX/LINUX world? Is it done by the average user? I think most or at least some commercial UNIX versions have you link the Kernal to get the device drivers loaded that you'll need, although they are starting to get away from this need. Most commercial versions don't include the source so you can't do a total recompile. Recompiling the Kernal has been a part of Linux from the very beginning, a lot of versions of the Kernal have only been available as source. Actual Linux distributions do include "Generic" precompiled Kernals. >I presume (from "context clues", as my fourth grade son's homework puts it) >that it provides a smaller/faster/more crashproof installation. Smaller because it doesn't have all the garbage you don't need, although mine always end up bigger than they need to, because I include a lot of extra filesystems that I "might" want, but never do. Faster because you can have it optimized for the specific processor you are running (i.e. 486 or Pentium). I don't know about more crashproof, but you can get it so that it supports hardware that you've got in your system that isn't supported by the generic kernals, but that drivers exist for. >I've always run CP/M and Bill's M$-DO$ and have no experience with UNIX. >Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program >much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? A much better and more stable OS is what you would get. However, if it isn't something you are interested in doing, the fact that it's better isn't a compelling enough reason to try it. As an example at home my primary machine is a Macintosh, I know that my Pentium running Linux is more stable, and runs a better OS. But I am far more productive on my Macintosh, and the Applications that I want to run are available on the Mac. Oh, and I was running Linux for several years prior to buying my first Mac. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 18:27:33 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801032332.PAA06715@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out >again. I played a demo of the new Frogger on my Playstation, it's NOTHING like the original! Give me the original any day, it was all on the screen at one time! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:22:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n In-Reply-To: <199801032319.PAA02132@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103202212.35077184@intellistar.net> At 06:13 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Weren't the COCO's serial? If the DMP-100's parallel, she won't work. > Yeap, at least the first two CoCO model were serial only. >Given the recent prices mentioned for Lisas and Apples, maybe I should ask >$100 each for 'em! > >manney@nwohio.com Whew! Good thing I got that 9831 when I did! > > From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Jan 3 18:30:13 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <2cf1880d.34aed818@aol.com> > As an example at home my primary machine is a Macintosh, I know that my > Pentium running Linux is more stable, and runs a better OS. But I am far > more productive on my Macintosh, and the Applications that I want to run >are available on the Mac. Which IS what I meant at the beginning that started this whole little discussion! Linux is trying to compete with Windows 95 and MacOS, but is not designed around getting documents typed, and stuff like that, so the average user would be awfully unproductive, and the "power user" would spend years tweaking their shell script and recompiling the kernel to run vi perfectly, which can't even do fonts! From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 3 18:34:53 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n In-Reply-To: <199801032319.PAA02132@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > I don't know RS stuff all that well. I'm assuming yours is a parallel > printer. > > > >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel > > >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the > manual, > > >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the > manual. > Many radio Schlock printers will work with some PC's and not others. I get > the best luck with the newer motherboards (486/Pentium). One of the problems with using a RS printer on a PC is that the RS units all (most?) add a linefeed in the printer firmware. If you do not know the escape sequence to disable it everything comes out doublespaced. And not all of their escape sequences were the same. - don > > >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and > which > > >driver did you use in Windows? > Use the "Generic" driver > > > > > > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to > a > > >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, > which > > >part number > > >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? > Weren't the COCO's serial? If the DMP-100's parallel, she won't work. > > btw, I do have several RS "edge card" parallel cables (a la Tandy 1000) if > anyone wants. > > Given the recent prices mentioned for Lisas and Apples, maybe I should ask > $100 each for 'em! > > manney@nwohio.com > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 18:38:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 2, 98 09:53:54 pm Message-ID: >But Linux itself is not yet 10 years old (AFAIK). So IMHO it should not Correct, the first version 0.10 was released in either October or November of '91, and the first widely available version 0.12 was released in January of '92. After that it jumped to 0.95 (the first version to support logging in, the first 3 just dumped you in as root). The jump from 0.12 to 0.95 was something Linus later realized was a mistake as the kernal wasn't as far along as he realized, and resulted in some very convoluted version numbers. IIRC it finally reached 1.0 in November of '93. Since 1.0 the version numbers have made a LOT more sense :^) I'm honestly amazed that it's over six years old, it doesn't seem that long! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 18:45:55 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <199801032319.PAA19563@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34AEDBC3.6D10AB83@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > I note that you *N*X users mention recompiling the kernel. Is that > something peculiar to the UNIX/LINUX world? Is it done by the average user? > > I presume (from "context clues", as my fourth grade son's homework puts it) > that it provides a smaller/faster/more crashproof installation. > > I've always run CP/M and Bill's M$-DO$ and have no experience with UNIX. > Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program > much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? The main reason Linux users like to customize and recompile the kernel is the same reason dogs lick their balls: because we _can_. Nobody outside of Redmond ever sees Micro$oft source code. And a source license for "real" Unix is priced far beyond the means of mortal men. It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely have some results on-topic for this mailing list. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:48:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 manual needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103204811.3d5fdc5c@intellistar.net> At 10:07 PM 1/3/98 -0000, you wrote: >I am the owner of a Kaypro 10 computer kindly left to me by a deceased >friend, unfortunately I have no manual which restricts my use of the >computer. can you help me please? > >Dave > Check with "David Williams - Computer Packrat, dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw". I sent him a pile of KayPro manuals. I think they were for a model 10 and there were a lot of duplicates. Joe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 3 19:23:47 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <34AEDBC3.6D10AB83@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 3, 98 07:45:55 pm Message-ID: <9801040123.AA04854@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1712 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/95464f0a/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 21:23:45 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <199801032007.MAA09206@one.mind.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103212345.2407d7d2@intellistar.net> At 12:05 PM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >> Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, >> that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. > > >Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor >misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them >were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying >to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) > >And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a >little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. >So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out >there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go >1%, & God went the other 99. > >So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the >teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can >live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly >have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. > >Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... > >Regards, > >---mikey Yeap, very nice, but how does that connect to Visicalc? Joe From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 19:31:01 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <2cf1880d.34aed818@aol.com> Message-ID: >> As an example at home my primary machine is a Macintosh, I know that my >> Pentium running Linux is more stable, and runs a better OS. But I am far >> more productive on my Macintosh, and the Applications that I want to run > >are available on the Mac. >Which IS what I meant at the beginning that started this whole little >discussion! Linux is trying to compete with Windows 95 and MacOS, but is not >designed around getting documents typed, and stuff like that, so the average >user would be awfully unproductive, and the "power user" would spend years >tweaking their shell script and recompiling the kernel to run vi perfectly, >which can't even do fonts! Actually it's because I'm a "Power Graphics User" that I got the Mac. The Graphics apps on the Mac have had far more time to mature than on the PC or UNIX (many of them actually date back more than ten years, i.e. the period of computing we should be discussing), that is why I'm more productive. I will say though that a Photoshop clone is now available for Linux, for free, that really surprised me when a friend showed it to me the other day! So Linux is fast catching up in even this area The rest of what I do, I could do with Linux, and to a certain extent do (some of it REQUIRES Linux). That's my point, the average user can get everything they need from Linux, and not end up paying Microsoft a small fortune. There are several WYSIWYG Word Processors available for Linux, and all the other programs that the "average" user needs. By using Linux the "average" user could save hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Using Linux I was able to produce documents that printed out that looked far nicer than anything I've used on Windows or Macs with the exception of Adobe Pagemaker or QuarkXpress. Your arguments were initially true back in '92 and maybe '93, but since then are totally false. I'm not saying Linux is for everyone, but it's ease of use is increasing while Windows is decreasing. Oh, and as a UNIX "power user" I tweak my scripts so I can go have fun and let the computer run, knowing it will page me if there is something that requires my attention. Let's face it, every OS has it's advantages. With Windows95 it's the number of programs available (don't mistake numbers for quality). With the Mac, ease of use. With Linux, Power, and freely available. The Amiga is just plain cool! The Atari ST provides a graphical OS in ROM so you don't waste space storing it on disk. The Apple IIe is actually a good computer for the "Average" user, especially since your argument seems to be that all they need is word processing. The IIe through IIgs give you good hardware at what is now a very reasonable price, you can even use it for going online. Many people still use Commodore 64's or TI-99/4A's and the ilk, even going so far in some cases as to surf the web. The point here is, just because YOU don't like something you shouldn't condemn it as being of no use to the Average person. After all a lot of people using these old computers are 'average' people that either don't see the need for a better system because it does what they want, or else they can't afford better. Still it would appear you would condemn them because they don't fit your narrow view of the 'average' user. Personally I'd say that the 'average user' is someone that uses a computer to accomplish some task that they wish to do, and it's up to them to decide how they will do it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From red at bears.org Sat Jan 3 19:24:32 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Searching for Apollo Parts Message-ID: Hullo; I'm trying to finish restoring my Apollo DN5500, but I can't seem to track down the parts I need. Maybe somebody here can help... I need the following for sure: Apollo P/N 012600-01 -- 760 MB ESDI disk (Maxtor XT-8760E) 011778 -- 60 MB SCSI QIC drive (Archive 2060S) SR10.3.5 or 10.4 tapeset (not the 10.4.1 RAI like I've got already). These would also be useful but are not needed: Apollo P/N 12173 -- 8 plane 1280x1024 video board 7550 -- 3 button DOMAIN mouse If you could help me out, I'd appreciate it greatly. This Apollo has been sitting around half-working for too long. Oh, and on an unrelated tangent, I could also use a Mac SE/30 motherboard, which has similarly eluded me. (: Thanks. ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 3 19:30:24 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: New additions: H89A Message-ID: i picked this machine up for free: here's what i got. the H89A in good condition. possible power problem. clean, and in great cosmetic shape. even got the original dust cover for it! external 5.25 floppy drive. about 50 disks with cpm, wordstar, dbase, and several other apps. the best part is the extensive documentation. i have *ALL* the construction manuals,schematics, bios listings, software reference guides, and original disks in their packaging. even had some 8 inch cpm disks included! the person that gave me this machine wants to join the list. if someone can email me directly with what i need to tell him to subscribe, let me know please. david From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jan 3 16:10:48 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Looking for info In-Reply-To: <199801031904.NAA01177@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103141048.00764204@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:07 PM 1/3/98 +0000, David Williams wrote: >Anyone have any info an a Tek 6130? Would have to check the model number to be sure, but that sounds like a unit I reciently accepted into my collection. What type of info are you looking for? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sat Jan 3 19:50:15 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01bd18b3$1a2b4d60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 4 January 1998 11:46 Subject: Re: UNIX questions? >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. >-- >Ward Griffiths They already HAVE released the source code for OpenDOS. While it is far beyond me to do anything with it, I found it very well commented and interesting. I was amazed at the number of "fixes" for specific hardware. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 19:17:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <34AEDBC3.6D10AB83@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 3, 98 07:45:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980104/4324dbb4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 19:37:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <2cf1880d.34aed818@aol.com> from "Zeus334" at Jan 3, 98 07:30:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3878 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980104/fd6edcdd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 19:44:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980103202212.35077184@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 3, 98 08:22:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980104/00917dd6/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 3 20:01:42 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: Gee, and I thought this was a classic computer mailing list. silly me... In a message dated 98-01-03 15:42:53 EST, somebody went WAY off topic and said: << Um, I'm not sure what you just said, but: a) I'm sure this has nothing to do with old computers, unless God stands for Graphic Output Device :) b)I think you mean that if one tries to disprove Jesus, they automatically God's followers, but,once again, I'm not sure Original Message: << > Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go 1%, & God went the other 99. So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... Regards, ---mikey >> >> From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 20:38:04 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801040238.VAA30521@server1.netpath.net> At 06:01 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program >much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? Headaches one day, major breakthroughs the next, a trip to the crazy house a few weeks later... I'm a user, and I can honestly say I can quit any time I want! - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 20:38:06 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> At 06:20 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out >again. Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old copy of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the internet or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version? I've seen screen shots of this new game... It's alot different, majorly different than the older versions. Alot of 3d stuff going on in there. Now say someone finds that copy of frogger on the internet and downloads it to play on his XT. How does this affect the sale of the new version? You could technically say it does, because if this XT user really wanted the new version of frogger, he'd have a major upgrade path ahead of him, maybe as much as 20 times as the new frogger game costs. >Copyrights are what? 37 years? As someone who produces intellectual >property (Photos and -- occasionally -- software), I appreciate copyright >protection. Sure, I have no problem with recent software protection, but in this case, the game isn't even being sold in it's original form anymore, running on computers that aren't made anymore. Maybe if software companies would take these old titles and put them up on the internet, maybe take online orders for them and charge a very low cost for the games, maybe around $1.00, people might just buy them instead of making "illegal" copies of them. But they don't. Most companies don't even offer support for software that old. I've had that happen numerous times when I'd try to contact a company to get a replacement disk for one that went bad. No dice. Some of the people answering the phone didn't even know they had published the game. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 20:52:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Laser 128 Message-ID: I'm looking for some information on a Laser 128. I've had one for several months now, and have known that it was an Apple clone. Unfortunatly it has a mouse, but no Power Supply. However, a couple days ago I got a second one, this time with no mouse, but it has the Power Supply and an external floppy drive and monitor cable. So I just plugged it into one of my little Apple IIc monitors since one was handy, and I'm happy to say it works. Even boots DOS 3.3 (will it run ProDOS?). One slight problem, the keyboard makes no sense, when I hit a key, something else comes up. Is this because I don't have their version of the OS, or is there a problem with the computer, or what? Any ideas? While I'm at it, will the little IIc green monitors display anything other than 40 columns? Looking at the manuals it looks like I should be able to get my IIc to display 80 columns on it, but I've not been able to. IIRC I have been able to get my Franklin Ace 1200 to run CP/M on one in 80 columns. I'm aware of the 40/80 column button on the IIc, but I've tried two different IIc's with no luck. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Sat Jan 3 22:10:24 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Searching for Apollo Parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You might want to try comp.sys.apollo, and there are several web pages dealing with Apollo systems. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 3 22:19:19 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Great doc find Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103221919.006cace4@pop3.concentric.net> Awhile back there was talk here about getting the documentation for the classic machines as while as the machines themself. I picked up a IBM Guide to Operations manual 6025113 Dated 1981,1982 and listed as the First Edition. In the back was a clear plastic bag with a casette tape for Diagnostic's number 6081562 version 1.02 new and unopened. The book cost me 50 cents at the Goodwill. Also got a AMIGA monitor I believe a 1080 for $15 at Goodwill. I also won the bid on a very large bo full of computers, parts, TV's, microwaves, and other items for 35.00 will list later after I sort it all out. Keep computing !!! John From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 23:12:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <01bd18b3$1a2b4d60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <34AF1A53.5DA4A4AE@cnct.com> Olminkhof wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, 4 January 1998 11:46 > Subject: Re: UNIX questions? > > >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. >Ward Griffiths > > They already HAVE released the source code for OpenDOS. While it is far > beyond me to do anything with it, I found it very well commented and > interesting. I was amazed at the number of "fixes" for specific hardware. You're right -- they _have_. It wasn't there a couple of weeks ago when I was printing out all of the manuals (which are the best that I've ever seen outside of the Linux Documentation Project -- they make the manuals that used to come with MS-DOS look like crap). Well, that takes care of my lunch hour Monday while I dump it from the T-1 to a Zip disk. Have to remember to grab a sandwich at Blimpy's at Newark Penn Station in the morning. Yes, I know a Zip disk has a lot more space than will be needed -- but for some reason I've taken to isolating my archives to avoid confusion. All of my material from Tim Mann's TRS-80 site is on one, all of my AT&T Unix PC material is on another, and so on for the Color Computer, the ST, the Mod 100 etc. Eventually, I'll wind up burning a couple of CDs -- since somebody was kind enough to find an excuse for one at work. Pity that it's attached to an NT box, since I'd prefer to use proper Unix filenames -- but maybe I can sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Htalk my boss into letting me hook it up to one of my RS/6000s for a couple of hours. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 23:22:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <199801040238.VAA30521@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34AF1CAA.7A5F41A6@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 06:01 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program > >much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? > > Headaches one day, major breakthroughs the next, a trip to the crazy house a > few weeks later... I'm a user, and I can honestly say I can quit any time I > want! Yeah, right. I've been telling myself that for fifteen years since Xenix showed up for the TRS-80 Model 16. Of course, I didn't start on the hard stuff until Linus Torvalds gave me a free sample of source code. "He gives the kids free samples, because he knows full well, that today's young innocent faces, will be tomorrow's clientele." Tom Lehrer, "The Old Dope Peddler" -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 23:34:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: Message-ID: <34AF1F60.B2DB4039@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > > source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > > You mean they haven't? I'm sure I downloaded some CP/M source code from > the 'Unofficial CP/M web site' a couple of months back. AFAIK, while this > was the 'Unofficial' site, Caldera know about it and approve > > This source may well be incomplete, but I believe the explanation that > the missing bits have been lost and will be made available if they are found. > > > have some results on-topic for this mailing list. The URL? (I'd do a search, but I've got the OpenDOS source downloading just this minute, and this modem isn't that fast). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Jan 4 00:46:12 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: [Long] Tandy Trivia, Pin 18, and a Fest! In-Reply-To: <34AF1A53.5DA4A4AE@cnct.com> References: <01bd18b3$1a2b4d60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104004612.00a4c330@mail.northernway.net> First, I'd like to mention that every year in Elgin, Illinois, USA (near Chicago) there is still a CoCoFest being held!!! Here's some info requested from Mike Knudsen (e-mail: mknudsen@lucent.com (I'm pretty sure this is it -- he just changed.)) about the fest: ------------------ We at Glenside Coco Club really want to hear from you on five different aspects: 1. Who's coming to the Fest on April 18/19 at Elgin, IL 2. Who's coming to our CocoFeast/Banquet/Family Dinner. This is really important. So far we count 24 fer-sures, or up to 31 with "maybes" added in. We need close to 50. The dinner is a "go" at this time, but please help our confidence here. And advise us re #5 below. 3. VENDORS! Who wants to commit verbally to taking a table, or half of one? Not only do we need your fee, but we need to reassure our guests that there will be some stuff to see and buy! 4. SPEAKERS! Who'd like to give a one-hour talk? Any Coco-related subject you like -- history, or a chance to plug your own product, be as infomercial as you like. Also how about a Keynote Speaker? Volunteers? 5. Do you want a Keynote Speaker? At the Dinner? SOme folks prefer *not* to sit thru a speech after dinner, but if we get a speaker he will be exciting to listen to. The Coco Greats are not dull, that's fer sure. ------------------ He's an officer in the GCCC (Glenside Color Computer Club) -- methinks the prez, but I'm not sure. He's one of main folks behind the shindig. Anyway, if yer interested, contact him when he gets back from vacation, which should be around January 8, 98. (yea, so this mail msg. isn't Y2K compliant -- what're ya gonna do about it, eh punk???? ;^> ) Oh, please tell him "Merch" sent ya -- I'd like to see if I generated any extra attendance with this msg. Thanks! ================== Tandy trivia: Tandy's numbering scheme was rather strange, as the CoCo I used the Roman numeral form, the CoCo2 & 3 used Arabic. However, standard Tandy nomenclature for the Models series was: Model I, Model II, Model III, but just as IV would have shortened the end, they changed to Arabic there with the 4. That's the way I've always seen it, tho. Any other thoughts? =================== On the printer thingy -- IIRC the pin that needs to be changed on a standard Centronics to an IBM (does that stand for Idiot Blows Money??? ;-) cable is Pin 18 -- tho I cannot remember what to do with it. However, do this: Go to DejaNews's web site (http://www.dejanews.com/) and search the newsgroup comp.sys.tandy for "printer" and "pin 18" and see what comes up -- they recently had a discussion here about that very topic. =================== Anyway, I hope anyone interested in CoCo's has a chance to attend the Fest (I'll see you there - it'll be my First!!! :-) and I hope this information helps anyone out there with printer woes. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jan 4 00:18:26 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 References: <199801020802.AAA13914@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34AF29B3.4312@goldrush.com> >From: "Cliff Gregory" >Subject: CBM 8032 >Anyone have a source for manuals/software for a CBM 8032 /8050 floppy >drive? >Cliff Gregory >cgregory@lrbcg.com First try might be the PET archives at: http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/ After that I can offer you this: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/petfaq.html http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/diskbasics.html http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/loadingbasics.html Lastly check out the Commodore information on Jim Brain's Commodore site (Caboom), which includes a PET www message SIG: http://www.jbrain.com/caboom/ ================================ Once you find software on-line - One of the real bummers is that the 8032 does not have an RS-232 port for easy communication (read: file transfer via null-modem) nor is the 8050 drive compatible with any other Commodore disk drive (like the 4040/2031 is compatible with the 1541 thus making it easy to get software to a 4040 by doing a null-modem to a 64 and writing with a 1541). Though I am not saying it is impossible; the PET does have a parallel user port which is VERY easy to program. With a bit of coding knowledge a few parts and soldering you could whip up a PET-to-Whatever connector and the appropriate software for transferring files. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From pvhp at forte.com Sun Jan 4 03:17:06 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <9801040917.AA02924@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: UNIX questions? Tony Duell wrote: >Ob classic-computer-OS. I agree with some other messages on this list - a >Linux/minix port to the PDP11 would be very nice. The PDP11 is just about >unique in that it's a popular classic computer with _no_ freely >distributable OS (in fact, unless you have the license transferred, you >can't even legally run what it was running before you got it). Now that >CP/M is jsut about free for home use, as is LDOS (for the TRS-80), OS8, >Linux, Minix (for educational use), etc, it appears that the PDP11 is the >machine that's left out of all this. I am not sure if things were different for the DEC OSes for the PDP-11 but for VMS (VAX & AXP) one can legally run the OS and attendant utilities (DECnet & the DCL shell) with transfer of ownership. To be legal you have to purchase new license PAKs and/or new distributions for any of the layered products which includes all the interesting compilers, DBses etc. BTW to Bruce Lane regarding BSDs: A web page discussing flavors and ports at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/BSD-info/BSD.html seems to be inaccesible at this time. For money you could try Ultrix as in: http://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/DECinfo/.2/SPD/26.40.32.txt - and I thought digital was no longer selling ultrix products (?) Peter Prymmer From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Jan 4 09:40:44 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01bd1927$1efda440$LocalHost@hotze> Yeah, BTW, how old are the RS/6K's? -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 04, 1998 8:13 AM Subject: Re: UNIX questions? >Olminkhof wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ward Donald Griffiths III >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> Date: Sunday, 4 January 1998 11:46 >> Subject: Re: UNIX questions? >> >> >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the >> >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely >> >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. >>Ward Griffiths >> >> They already HAVE released the source code for OpenDOS. While it is far >> beyond me to do anything with it, I found it very well commented and >> interesting. I was amazed at the number of "fixes" for specific hardware. > >You're right -- they _have_. It wasn't there a couple of weeks ago >when I was printing out all of the manuals (which are the best that >I've ever seen outside of the Linux Documentation Project -- they make >the manuals that used to come with MS-DOS look like crap). Well, that >takes care of my lunch hour Monday while I dump it from the T-1 to a >Zip disk. Have to remember to grab a sandwich at Blimpy's at Newark >Penn Station in the morning. > >Yes, I know a Zip disk has a lot more space than will be needed -- but >for some reason I've taken to isolating my archives to avoid confusion. >All of my material from Tim Mann's TRS-80 site is on one, all of my >AT&T Unix PC material is on another, and so on for the Color Computer, >the ST, the Mod 100 etc. Eventually, I'll wind up burning a couple of >CDs -- since somebody was kind enough to find an excuse for one at work. >Pity that it's attached to an NT box, since I'd prefer to use proper >Unix filenames -- but maybe I can sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Htalk my boss into >letting me hook it up to one of my RS/6000s for a couple of hours. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 4 11:20:58 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980104112058.00b89d70@pc> John Higginbotham wrote: >Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software >cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's >computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt >todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be >freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase >productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm >are they? So let me get this straight: on one hand, you're saying there's a bunch of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about learning or enjoyment? I think this list proves there is some small level of demand for old stuff... and certainly game makers like Microsoft and Atari have done well by selling relatively inexpensive pre-made collections of either the exact old games or updated emulations. I'm stunned by the amount of software that has been collected and redistributed (largely illegally) for the very good software-based emulators for old computers. Many of these emulators have become commercial products, again proving there's a bit of profit left in old software. On the other hand, I agree with some of your sentiment - it would be nice if there was a more formalized, established and accepted method that antique computer collectors could secure the rights to redistribute software that the owners have in fact abandoned. For example, I've tried to track down the rights to the Terak computer, as described on my web page. Terak was sold to CalComp, then a Sanders company, which was later assimilated by Lockheed-Martin. Try to wind your way through that bureaucracy to find the long-time employee who *might* be able to track down those assets - if you could convince them of the good intent of your interest, and that they should take time out of their day to help you. Similarly, I tried to clarify the rights to UCSD Pascal's p-code system. The UCSD licensing agency has stated that the license is non-exclusive, but in reality they have only one licensee, Cabot Systems in the UK, who are actively trying to sell the P-System as an alternative to Java for set-top boxes and embedded applications. Ken Bowles, author of a well-known early book on Pascal and one of the original designers of the P-System, believes that at least the early versions should be public domain because they were developed by the university with government funds, or something like that. You can see the problem: as soon as you *ask* about the obscure software and claim there's hundreds of people interested in using it, someone sees dollar signs and doesn't want to simply give it away. Non-profit collectors feel they're a "good cause" and that they'd take really good care of the stuff, but there are collectors and publishers out there who do seek to make a profit. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Jan 4 14:14:40 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Software Piracy [again] and In-Reply-To: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> ;-) John Higginbotham head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Sure, I have no problem with recent software protection, but in this case, >the game isn't even being sold in it's original form anymore, running on >computers that aren't made anymore. Maybe if software companies would take >these old titles and put them up on the internet, maybe take online orders >for them and charge a very low cost for the games, maybe around $1.00, >people might just buy them instead of making "illegal" copies of them. But >they don't. One does sell outdated software for (well, usually) a smaller than normal fee. Tandy. They still sell software that runs on the original CoCo1 like Mega-bug and the like on cassette and disk for as low as $2.50 or so. They still have a small amount of cartridge software for sale! Now here's a stupid question: Where's that $2.50 or so go? Well, Tandy really doesn't make a profit on that. It helps pay the wages for the people who do the cassette/disk copy // PROM burn, and the rest? Tandy still sends checks (albeit small ones) to the authors of this 15-year-old software when it's sold. If you don't believe me, just hop onto news://bit.listserve.coco and ask Steve Bjork. He wrote many programs for Tandy, including Arkanoid for the CoCo2 and 3, I think Mega-Bug, and many others that are still for sale all over the country. When you pirate that software, you are stealing directly from a person that I have conversed with many times in the listserve, and will be meeting face-to-face in April. My advice: Most of the original authors (of Tandy software, at least) seem to be on or around the Internet -- try finding them and see if they will give permission to change the licensing of their software to shareware / freeware. Chris Burke of Burke & Burke (they made software, hardware interfaces, RAM upgrades and whatnot for the CoCo2/3) 4 or 5 months ago changed the licensing to all of his software to inexpensive shareware, and released the source code to several programs... because someone actually had the initiative to track him down, and ask him. He had no idea folks still wanted the stuff! > Most companies don't even offer support for software that old. >I've had that happen numerous times when I'd try to contact a company to get >a replacement disk for one that went bad. No dice. Some of the people >answering the phone didn't even know they had published the game. My advice: Be persistant -- and know the law. No matter what the EULA states, you can: Make backup copies _for yourself_ of any software that you own -- from any source. If a ROM went bad in your Tandy 200, I can legally burn you a copy of from a good ROM in my 200 and send it to you -- provided you can prove you still own it. (either by shipping me the device, or a friend of mine asked his lawyer about this, and a picture of you with your 200 would absolve me of any wrongdoing - aka proof. If it wasn't your 200, that wouldn't be my fault.) If you can find someone else with a copy of that software, you can legally copy it provided you still own the software you're copying. Make more than one copy for yourself for more than one computer you may own -- provided that you do not use more than one copy of that program *at the same time*. I can copy my OS-9 disks for my multiple CoCos without problem -- until I boot OS-9 on *more than one* CoCo at the same time if I only have one legal license for the software. As long as I shut down OS-9 on one system before booting the next, it's legal. (This is how it was explained to me by a person who spoke with his lawyer on this matter -- please accept this with a grain or two of salt.) Oh, there is still some professional CoCo3 devlopment going on -- there are 2 new games here, with a 3rd on the way. Want info on one of the proggies? http://people.delphi.com/medialink/ For Digger II: Return of the Saint (and Guido's World Coming Soon). There's also a Pac-Man clone out that is supposed to look, feel and smell like the original arcade game, tho I don't have a URL handy. Anyway, I hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 4 08:25:47 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Software Piracy [again] and In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> References: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <199801041919.OAA29695@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Roger! The terrific discussion of legealese stuff and s/w ownship, I'm now starting to buy s/w now that I know why and I have now resisted more and more to copying requests, telling them to buy theirs or buy used s/w. Good info you have there. > [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I > saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons > -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I > still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] Hee hee, would startle me to see scribbles on face of the monitors because wasn't used to seeing like that. :) Why not take the tube out (Gently!) to free that anti-glare mesh and clean up everything with strong cleaning alcohol? It will dissolve the wax. What's DVI? Jaosn D. > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 4 13:57:10 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: CoCo Software (was Re: Software Piracy [again] and ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> References: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: >One does sell outdated software for (well, usually) a smaller than normal >fee. Tandy. They still sell software that runs on the original CoCo1 like >Mega-bug and the like on cassette and disk for as low as $2.50 or so. They >still have a small amount of cartridge software for sale! Here is a stupid CoCo question, how does one go about buying this software from them? I'm assuming the typical Tandy Sales drone will go, "Huh, nope, we don't have any such product" (note this is just an assumption on my part, I've been dealing with to many idiot computer salespeople lately). So far all my hunting for Tandy stuff has resulted in a CoCo, a CoCo2 and a grand total of two cartridges (found separate from the computers). I do have a cassette deck and cable, but only because I bought them new for use with my WP-2 a few years back when Tandy discontinued them. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From pjoules at enterprise.net Sun Jan 4 13:52:58 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <199801032217.AA24234@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34AFE89A.55D44541@enterprise.net> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I have the 11/23 or 11/73 to pick from (with 30meg of disk). > I have a pdp11 C compiler (decus C) running under RT-11. > I can copy elks sources to the 11 > > ELKS is only an embedded kernel. Oops. > If you download the latest elks kernel source - 0.0.67 at the moment but 0.0.68 is due out anytime, along with elkscmd.tar.gz you will have an almost complete Linux subset for the 8086 with which you can then work. The acronym ELKS is 'Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset' but the project is, at present, to develop a workable linus for the 8086/8 processors capable of running on a minimum of a twin 360k floppy system with 512k. Regards Pete From bcw at u.washington.edu Sun Jan 4 14:58:10 1998 From: bcw at u.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Laser 128 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One slight problem, the keyboard makes no sense, when I hit a key, > something else comes up. Is this because I don't have their version of the > OS, or is there a problem with the computer, or what? Any ideas? I've found this generally occurs when the ribbon cable connecting the keyboard to the motherboard is slightly loose/misaligned. The cable connects right under the keyboard, which lifts up when you take the case off. ------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw@u.washington.edu (mail may come from alternate addresses) Classic Computers List Operator/Owner http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Jan 4 16:02:58 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: DVI, IDE, and general CoCo madness In-Reply-To: <199801041919.OAA29695@mail.cgocable.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104160258.00abf690@mail.northernway.net> ;-) jpero@cgo.wave.ca head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Good info you have there. Thanks -- I've lurked thru a lot of piracy flame wars on other newsgroups and listservers and learned a lot -- once I dug thru the egos and low blows many of these folks resort to to get their point across. >> [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I >> saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons >> -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I >> still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] > >Hee hee, would startle me to see scribbles on face of the monitors >because wasn't used to seeing like that. :) Why not take the tube >out (Gently!) to free that anti-glare mesh and clean up everything >with strong cleaning alcohol? It will dissolve the wax. What's DVI? First: The DVI stands for a Disk-Video interface for a Tandy non-MS-DOS laptop (you know - the good ones! :-) which enables you to use up to 2 40track SSDD floppies storing 184K and the use of a monochrome 80x25 monitor w/VT-100 compatibility. (Don't remember for sure on the VT-100 -- if not, I do know that it's VT-52 compatible because the built-in LCD's are mostly VT-52 compatible already.) Second: having been a candlemaker for the last 7 years experience tells me that most alcohols (including ethanol, methanol, and isopropyl) don't dissolve wax very well. The only thing I've found to dissolve wax easily is called Naptha -- one of the main components of dry-cleaning fluid & lighter fluid (you know, for the Zippos) and can be had at your local hardware store -- I paid $2.99 for a quart I believe. Also, I've found Amway's LOC (stands for Liquid Organic Cleaner) cleans up crayons better than most cleaners, tho it's still not a complete solution for crayons & candles. The only reason the Apple /// monitor isn't back in tip-top shape yet, is that I don't have a bootable disk or cable for my DVI to hook to my Tandy 200 -- so at present it's not usable (Tho I still use my 200 all the time!). When I complete my docking station setup for my laptop, I'll put some time into the monitor and get 'er working good again. Oh, and what have I been doing today? I've just refurbished a keyboard on an old CoCo 1 that I bought at an auction several years ago and haven't had a chance to get to -- looked like cheese sauce was blurped onto the keyboard (blech). Also upgraded it from 4K (original) to 64K (yes, both memory pages work -- the original CoCo1's could only handle 32K without a few extra wires added.) Reseated all the chips, burned an Extended ROM and am getting ready to set it up in my bedroom and hook up my Plug-n-Power controller to it so I can control a lot of stuff around the house (better & cheaper than IBM's solution!). Oh, I took pictures during the disassembly and will be scanning them in and writing an article on CoCo keyboard remanufacture which hopefully will be posted in 3 areas: my web page, a CoCo/MM1 magazine called _the world of 68' micros_ that Frank Swygert at Farna Systems publishes, and also in the GCCC (that's Glenside Color Computer Club -- they're still active!) newsletter. Oh, and if anyone's interested in an IDE interface for their CoCo, I'd get a hold of Carl Boll () real quick -- they have the prototype working well now and are ready to finalize the OS-9 drivers & whatnot - then they're ordering the boards made. There will only be one run of boards, so once they're gone, they're gone. Looks like 125 or so will be made, but if you contact him soon (and there'll be a $15 deposit per board) he'll add you in before time runs out. Well, there's been too many "Oh,"'s already, so I'll end this message before it becomes a novel. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 4 16:55:13 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980104174915.006904ac@netpath.net> At 11:20 AM 1/4/98 -0600, you wrote: >of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think >the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because >there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about >learning or enjoyment? If you can find any message where I said that, I'd be happy to argue against it, but I don't think I would type that in so many words. Software companies SHOULD be able to sell these old games, but they can never expect to get the original price out of them. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:04:28 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801042330.PAA18513@mx3.u.washington.edu> > >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out > >again. > > I played a demo of the new Frogger on my Playstation, it's NOTHING like the > original! Give me the original any day, it was all on the screen at one > time! > > Zane I don't mean that the new one is better, just that it doesn't seem to have died. I loved the original one, too (on an Atari 400, as I recall.) manney From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:09:42 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n Message-ID: <199801042330.PAA22568@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > One of the problems with using a RS printer on a PC is that the RS units > all (most?) add a linefeed in the printer firmware. If you do not know > the escape sequence to disable it everything comes out doublespaced. And > not all of their escape sequences were the same. > - don I've never had a problem with that...they usually print the info on the back. My problem is the the early DMP dot matrix series (before 134, I think) will not respond to many PC parallel ports. I've heard that Radio Schlock has a cable to fix that, but they said no. Anyway, these early DMP's respond to most modern motherboards. Don't know why. manney From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:24:27 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801042331.PAA26572@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Which I use depends on the job I want to > do, how I want to do it, etc. Nobody restricts you to only having one > computer. Wives? From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:29:54 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801042331.PAA03850@mx5.u.washington.edu> > >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out > >again. > > Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old copy > of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the internet > or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version? Well, I meant...Frogger is an axample of why "they" don't just throw game concepts out the window. Frogger seems to have been resurrected. You're right -- the new one is different, and most young users would prefer the new version (I LIKED the old one, though! Anyone have Frogger for the PC for sale?) From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 4 19:01:49 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <199801042331.PAA26572@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > Which I use depends on the job I want to > > do, how I want to do it, etc. Nobody restricts you to only having one > > computer. > > Wives? > No no no. My wife, who is not at all into computers (still seems to pick up stuff fast and I don't have to tell her how to do something more than once usually), LOVES my hobby of collecting computers. She realizes and has said that my hobby is what makes me so employable so she knows we and our children (when we have them) will never go hungry. It also allowed us to buy our home, the finished basement of which has been allocated (at her suggestion) to my computer hobby. This way I don't have junk all over the house, I have an area where I can set things up and be assured she won't go around switching things off or moving them and guarantees that I'll be at home instead of out galavanting about at bars or sports games like other husbands. Plus, she knows I won't give her a hard time about collecting Barbies, books and pets...because she's so understanding about my hobby. On the other hand, all my girlfriends up to meeting my wife HATED my computers (in my apartment so I don't know what business it was of theirs anyway), hated me spending time on them and thought they were useless junk. My wife saw my computers and saw stability (aside from loving me and me loving her and all the things that make a good marriage possible), someone who wouldn't cheat on her or beat her (not that she'd ever experienced that mind you but smart women don't pick certain kinds of guys) and someone who, if he lost his job, wouldn't be happy lying around the house (IE would look for a job) and would be able to find SOME job under almost any economic circumstances. I really don't understand the wife hating the computers routine. You'd think, like my wife, they'd understand that a computer hobby can be a great contribution to the stability of the family, the employability of the husband and the education of any children. (Not to say, mind you, that my wife isn't gainfully employed. She's had the same job for 13 years, is a supervisor and has complete seniority. She enjoys working and we couldn't get by without her income but she knows, if the chips were down and she lost her job, I could get a job [if forced to do so because I like my current job even if it isn't the highest pay in the world] that would earn enough for both of us to live on. On the other hand, there's nothing I'd love more than cleaning out some hams basement of old computers and having the wife standing at the top of the stairs saying, "Honey, why don't you give him that old Altair that's been collecting dust for 20 years. If you do, I'll make that special pot roast for you." etc etc. =-D Hasn't happened yet but it was how I laid my hands on gobs of Xerox 820 parts and the crusty Northstar chassis. The husband hates it of course but it makes me wish more wives were involved in their husbands' businesses. "Honey, why don't you clean out that back room and give this young man all those old computers for free so you can have a new office with a pool table?" ;-D Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From Zeus334 at aol.com Sun Jan 4 18:05:22 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <40c749f8.34b023c5@aol.com> Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours: Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!) Why dogs lick their balls Atheism What makes a good marriage Copyrights Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program for something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 4 18:17:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801050017.AA17495@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, John Rollins wrote: > You might want to try comp.sys.apollo, This is mostly where I've been focusing my efforts already. /: The web pages I've found so far are not selling parts. ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sun Jan 4 18:37:12 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems (frogger...) In-Reply-To: <199801042331.PAA03850@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > > >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it > out > > >again. > > > > Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old > copy > > of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the > internet > > or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version? > > Well, I meant...Frogger is an axample of why "they" don't just throw game > concepts out the window. Frogger seems to have been resurrected. You're > right -- the new one is different, and most young users would prefer the > new version (I LIKED the old one, though! Anyone have Frogger for the PC > for sale?) > > You know, I probably have 20 different versions of Frogger... for the TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, Vic, CoCo, and on and on... anyway, I _don't_ have an original 'licensed' version for the PC. Many, many remakes for the PC and every other computer in the world, but not a Sega licensed version. Could someone let me know when it was released and if they really do have a copy for sale? I'd really like to get the 'original PC version'! Thanks, CORD COSLOR From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 4 18:37:58 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <40c749f8.34b023c5@aol.com> Message-ID: >Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours: >Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!) >Why dogs lick their balls >Atheism >What makes a good marriage >Copyrights > >Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program for >something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff >displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice http://www.newdealinc.com/ Unfortunatly with their newest version it looks like they've changed the name, and dropped support of 8086/88 processors :^( This is the updated version of Geoworks. If you contact them, they might have copies of the previous version still that will run on the PC XT. I've not tried this, I just bookmarked it because I like software that gives old computers new lives. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 4 18:43:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Laser 128 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> One slight problem, the keyboard makes no sense, when I hit a key, >> something else comes up. Is this because I don't have their version of the >> OS, or is there a problem with the computer, or what? Any ideas? > >I've found this generally occurs when the ribbon cable connecting >the keyboard to the motherboard is slightly loose/misaligned. The >cable connects right under the keyboard, which lifts up when you >take the case off. I'm embarrased to say that it was a switch on the back of the computer that needed to be flipped. One of the other list members pointed this out, as well as letting me know why I wasn't getting 80 columns on my IIc. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Jan 4 20:09:54 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: FS: Coleco Adam, Franklin Ace, Lanier somethingorother Message-ID: <199801050209.VAA11275@webern.cs.unc.edu> Saw these things in a second-hand store in Las Vegas the other day: Coleco Adam Franklin Ace 1200 Lanier (it had two 5.25" floppy drives, two LEDs, and two rocker switches on its front panel) CoCo 2 Although I was awfully tempted, I ended up deciding they wouldn't fit in my luggage, so they are probably still there, at the "Faith Lutheran" thrift store, at 707 N. Rancho. Let the race begin! Bill. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 4 22:56:17 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Wives? In-Reply-To: <199801042331.PAA26572@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980104225617.4917ab5c@intellistar.net> At 03:24 PM 1/4/98 -0500, you wrote: > Which I use depends on the job I want to >> do, how I want to do it, etc. Nobody restricts you to only having one >> computer. > >Wives? > > OK to have more than one of those too, just not at the same time! From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 4 21:29:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Wives? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980104222624.006c5b6c@netpath.net> At 10:56 PM 1/4/98, you wrote: >>Wives? > > OK to have more than one of those too, just not at the same time! Unless you live in Utah... -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 4 21:42:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <199801050342.AA27479@world.std.com> The idea of using linux as a free OS on aging 386 boxen or as a platform for getting a unix running on older classic platforms has merit. There is one little bug... I've never seen a running linux box nor have I been successful in getting one going. After loading 75 floppies becuase the CDrom I have is not supported I'm more than annoyed and have not found a resource to assist beyond suggesting I'd be better off running microspooge. The latter is insulting and demeaning. On the other hand if someone can prove that working slakware v3.0 really exists I can be swayed. Allison From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 4 23:22:49 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050342.AA27479@world.std.com> Message-ID: Allison (and everyone else reading), I struggled with my first Linux installs in 1994. There were no manuals nor any people to help me. I had to get a system up and running to get into business as an ISP so expediency was more important than optimum configuration. I came up with the following recommendations to get a system up quickly and without hassle: 1. 386 or 486 box with AMI (American Megatrends) BIOS. I've had some luck with Phoenix and other BIOS's over the years but I've found AMI to be the most consistent in terms of getting a box operational. 2. RAM is relatively unimportant BUT if you do not have more than 4 megs you will need to go through a procedure to turn on your swap space BEFORE running the install or it will crash and die. mkswap /dev/hdaX Y where X is swap partition number as shown in fdisk and Y is the size of X in blocks swapon /dev/hdaX 3. Do NOT try doing the Linux running out of an MS-DOS directory on your first install. I've NEVER done this nor do I suspect it's that pleasant plus it makes me feel stupid to run Linux out of DOS. :-/ Get a drive, partition using LINUX FDISK (NOT DOS FDISK) and use it all for Linux. 4. Use IDE hard drives until you know enough about doing installs. Then you can use SCSI more effectively. 5. If your BIOS can deal with the drive, Linux can too...with CERTAIN exceptions...on some BIOSs you're given the choice of using Normal, Large or LBA for block addressing. Sometimes you have to try different settings to get a Linux install to go. Linux may complain if it thinks the drive has more than 1024 cylinders but the complaint can, essentially, be ignored these days. This is experience speaking. 6. Be prepared to turn off caches...internal and external in the BIOS. Sometimes, especially on newer kernels like Slackware 3.0, you can't get the boot floppy to go because it'll crash out and give you stack dump type information. Try turning off first the external cache and then the internal cache if that doesn't work. Not all caches are created equal. 7. Create TWO partitions with fdisk...the sequence looks like this... do a 'p' to print out the partition list do 'd's to delete all existing partitions do 'n' to create new partition then 'p' to make it primary then '1' to make it the first primary partition, set the starting block at 0 or 1 and the ending block a couple hundred blocks from the last block do 'n' to create another new partition then 'p' to make it primary then '2' to make it the secondary primarty partitition, set the starting block to the next block from the last block of the first partition and the last block to the last block available then do a 't' and select '2' for the partition number and '82' for the type...you can do an 'l' to get a list of types...you want to set it to Linux swap...Linux filesystem or whatever is the default. Partition 1 should be left at the default type and partition 2 should be Linux Swap. Do another 'p' to make sure it looks cool. It may complain about the drive if it has more than 1024 cylinders. Ignore it. Do a 'w' to save the changes, power down and power up with the floppy and do your install. 8. If it's formatting the partitions and freaks out complaining that it can't write inodes or superblocks and gives you a long list of these complaints...and you have a drive over 2 gigs in size try creating 3 partitions...the first two of equal size totalling most of the drive and the last being your swap. Or try a different block addressibility type in the BIOS. 9. There are usually different boot disk types...IDE only, IDE/SCSI, SCSI only. Make sure you use the IDE only. It's the easiest. 10. If you want to install off cdrom and the install won't recognize the drive...wait for the boot prompt when you boot up and type install hdX=cdrom where X is a,b,c or d which correspond to what you're used to as Drive C:, D:, E: or F: If it's an IDE-ATAPI type CD-ROM, it should work. Finally, if someone REALLY REALLY wants to load Linux on a system and is willing to follow my instructions, be patient with me, realize that I have a family to support and will send me some trinket in return (S-100 cards, Shugart SA-400 drives, etc all work) AND are willing to call ME long-distance I can probably help you out. Email is probably easier. The main problem with Linux isn't with Linux...it's with the umpteen zillion cheapo motherboards, peripheral cards and hard drives manufactured for intel-oriented PCs. I've loaded Linux at least a 100 times since 1994 but I do it a pretty low-tech way. Alot of times I'll just load Slackware 2.0 if I don't care about X much. Alot of times I'll just load up Caldera because it's easy. The only way I've NEVER done it is on an MS-DOS drive out of a dos directory. I won't even attempt that. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > There is one little bug... I've never seen a running linux box nor > have I been successful in getting one going. After loading 75 floppies > becuase the CDrom I have is not supported I'm more than annoyed and > have not found a resource to assist beyond suggesting I'd be better > off running microspooge. The latter is insulting and demeaning. On > the other hand if someone can prove that working slakware v3.0 really > exists I can be swayed. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 4 22:39:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> <1. 386 or 486 box with AMI (American Megatrends) BIOS. I've had some Exactly a AMI 386 is what I have. <2. RAM is relatively unimportant BUT if you do not have more than 4 me Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: Try FreeBSD. It's much more professionally oriented, and more stable. No "kernel of the week" problems. I run both but vastly prefer FreeBSD. It's rock-solid and high performance. I suggest 2.2.5, the latest release. Kevin At 10:42 PM 98/01/04 -0500, you wrote: > >The idea of using linux as a free OS on aging 386 boxen or as a platform >for getting a unix running on older classic platforms has merit. > >There is one little bug... I've never seen a running linux box nor >have I been successful in getting one going. After loading 75 floppies >becuase the CDrom I have is not supported I'm more than annoyed and >have not found a resource to assist beyond suggesting I'd be better >off running microspooge. The latter is insulting and demeaning. On >the other hand if someone can prove that working slakware v3.0 really >exists I can be swayed. > > >Allison > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 00:08:31 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> Message-ID: > <6. Be prepared to turn off caches...internal and external in the BIOS. > > I'm not getting stackdumps. I'm getting all mannor of boot errors > related to the filesystem mountability or RW/RO status. > > Not a problem I get fully through the setup. > Ok, at some point it wants to do a LILO install...LILO is the boot loader. Where are you having it put the boot loader? Even though it's a pain if you ever want to reformat the drive for MS-DOS, I usually put the boot loader in the MBR (Master Boot Record). But this would cause it not to boot at all...not to fail when it tries to moutn the drive. What it will do is see the drive as a piece of hardware, then it will mount it read only and do an fsck (file system check), then it will mount it read write. You'll see the following messages or something like them interspersed with other messages: date something kernel: hda: Manufacturer, Size & Cache, CHS=cyl/heads/sectors, MaxMult=something then date something kernel: partition check: date something kernel: hda: hda1 hda2 date something kernel: VFS: mounted root (ext2 filesystem) readonly. date something kernel: Adding Swap: 16000K swap-space (maybe a diff number) and then some other messages talking about fsck etc etc... and then it'll finally mount it read-write... Can you tell me exactly what the error messages are? I know it's a pain because it scrolls by kinda quick but I need to know exactly what it's saying to give you a good idea what's going on and why. One thing I could do...I'd have to clean some personal stuff off it...is send you a little 40 meg drive that has Slackware 2.0 on it that I really don't use much anymore. If it'll boot that then it's not your hardware...it's either the formatting of the hard drive or the drive itself. Sometimes just because they'll do MS-DOS ok doesn't mean they'll do linux ok. It's rare but it happens. Send me a private email if you want to do this. I've left this public because I thought it might be of use to others. Yeah yeah I know it's linux not cp/m blah blah blah. Except that one of the coolest things to do with Linux is to run emulators for other machines. I've got a whole bunch on my website at http://www.retrocomputing.com/software.html. And I'm working on getting Douglas Jones' PDP-8 emulator to work so that'll work on Linux soon too. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 00:13:22 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: > Try FreeBSD. It's much more professionally oriented, and more stable. No > "kernel of the week" problems. I run both but vastly prefer FreeBSD. It's > rock-solid and high performance. I suggest 2.2.5, the latest release. Hey! Give me a chance to see if I can help him get Linux going first. His problem has to be some little teeny dumb thing that, once fixed, will seem silly. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 00:18:07 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: For sale or trade: Old PC Memory Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Got an old AT that needs some additional RAM? Have I got the thing for you: 1 BocaRam AT with 128k but only partially populated 6 Intel AT boards each populated with 2 megs of dip RAM These are as-is untested. I'll sell them for a few bucks plus shipping or trade them for fun hardware like Apple peripheral cards, S-100 boards of ANY kind, Shugart floppy drives 5 1/4" or 8", 6800 series chips (6800, 6810, 6820, etc) or anything you think might interest me. Look at http://www.retrocomputing.com to see the kinds of things that interest me. Ooo wait. Are posts like this permitted? I hope so. If not, I'll never do it again. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 4 19:15:40 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801050609.BAA20160@mail.cgocable.net> > <1. 386 or 486 box with AMI (American Megatrends) BIOS. I've had some > > Exactly a AMI 386 is what I have. Shrugs, and good to see you do have that 128k cache. What about 387? > <2. RAM is relatively unimportant BUT if you do not have more than 4 me > > 8meg of ram Not bad! snip snip snip! > I'm not getting stackdumps. I'm getting all mannor of boot errors > related to the filesystem mountability or RW/RO status. Looks like something on your hd subsystem not being configured right. Especially jumpers? That is why I demand manuals to go with 'em if the price is expensive on rare or hard to get used parts. My advice: Motherboards, some cards always get the manuals, because usually once in a while caught mistakes there by former users. If not, deal is dead. Snip snip...! > CDrom is not installed, if it were it's a phillips cm205 (unsupported) > and not IDE-atapi. the CDrom is in another box (486powered) and the > floppies were made from there. I think linux supports this one, CM 206? Cheaper to dig up both panasonic 2x with it's controller card or the mitsumi 1x or 2x with controller. I've of both done successfully. Snip! > > Humm sa400? I may have one in the pile fairly unused. Ouch... :) > The problem is nothing works as advertized for a vanilla install. Hee hee... I have always get problems and we always figure out or fix all the problems. Successful on first cut is rare unless one collects all the hardware that met the listed requirements and know the all the dma, i/o and irq addresses with careful planning of all things to prevent conflicts. > This box is as vanilla as they come. > > AMI 386DX/33, 128k cache, 8mb ram, connor 420mb IDE, 3.5" 1.44 floppy, > serial mouse on com1: modem at com2:, DECPA(DE100) NI, TRIDENT 512k > SVGA. Runs dos/win3.1 real well(just to prove the hardware works). The chipset # of this Trident? It's supported btw but not exactly barn-burner frame buffer performance. Tseng ET4k chips also supported but very fast unless X acceleration then you would want one that has ET4k/w32i if you're still on ISA bus. > It's taken a year to scrounge up all the parts to create this system. Wow! Suggest: net queries on individual or some parts in batch will make things go faster and inexpensively. > Allison From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 5 00:22:18 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: >PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't >get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" > >Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. Heh, you know my answer for the BSD people, which BSD? Let's see; FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, 386BSD, BSD/OS, BSD Lite, I don't know what else is there. Personally I've got a Hard Drive with OPENSTEP, that's the only BSD system I'm currently running. At least Linux development is pretty much controlled chaos, BSD on the other had seems to be to simply be chaos. Yes, I know that there are quite a few different Linux distributions, but they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. Linux has two types of kernals, production and development. If you want stable use production, if you want "Bleeding Edge" use development. My Linux fileserver has been running for over 15 months with the same software install, without a crash. Seriously the question you need to ask yourself when deciding which to use is if you want a UNIX System V based system, or a BSD 4.3/4.4 based system. If you want SysV go with Linux, if you want BSD then chose your poison, personally I'd recommend FreeBSD for the Intel architecture, OpenBSD for anything else. Realistically the two are basically the same, on the topic of documentation is about the only real difference. You can find a ton of books specific to Linux, as far as I know the only BSD 4.4 specific books are the Berkley docs that Linux printed. I find OpenBSD of intrest because it's purpose is to be multiplatform, however, I think the total USENET traffic for it is less than comp.os.linux.announce I've got to agree with the comment that Linux is great for running emulators. I'm still looking for a PDP-11 of my own, but in the mean time I can play with the PDP-11 emulator under Linux and run stuff like RT-11 or Version 5 UNIX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 5 00:27:01 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: FS: Coleco Adam, Franklin Ace, Lanier somethingorother In-Reply-To: <199801050209.VAA11275@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Saw these things in a second-hand store in Las Vegas the other day: > > Coleco Adam > > Franklin Ace 1200 > > Lanier > (it had two 5.25" floppy drives, two LEDs, and two > rocker switches on its front panel) The Lanier unit is a dedicated word processor based on a Z-80. They came in several flavors - soft sector disks, hard sector disks, and both floppy and hard drive. I do not know if there was ever a CP/M version ported to the machine or not. Lanier is now a part of Harris Corp. and they , like many large companies, were no too helpful in my queries. - don > CoCo 2 > > Although I was awfully tempted, I ended up deciding they wouldn't fit > in my luggage, so they are probably still there, at the "Faith Lutheran" > thrift store, at 707 N. Rancho. > > Let the race begin! > > Bill. > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 06:50:36 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <01bd19d8$851de080$LocalHost@hotze> Well, if anyone wants it I can ship my FreeBSD 2.2.5 CD which I got a part of a misorder. Because I got it for free, I'll charge whatever shipping costs. Actually, I just am finishing installing my first Linux (Unix too!) system on my 200MHz "Demon" (for Linux), but I need to contact the tech support guies because they orginazied the CD so @%^# poorly. It's Debian, and the install was slicker than ANY other OS that I've installed, from billg's DOS 2.0 to Windows 95. Also, I feel like I've got the POWER pre-installed, not something that you need to spend about 5 or 6 months looking for. Plus my Debian package came with browsers, server software (Apache included, along with the Cern servers, NCSA servers, etc.), and almost any X-Window look you can imagine, from the NeXT style to Mac to Win 95. Well, if I ever get to an area of the planet with unlimited access time measured in items smaller than tens of thousands of bucks for a modem, I think that I'll see what I can do. Well, contact me if you want FreeBSD (anyone), Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Linux???? is it real >>PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't >>get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" >> >>Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. > >Heh, you know my answer for the BSD people, which BSD? Let's see; FreeBSD, >OpenBSD, NetBSD, 386BSD, BSD/OS, BSD Lite, I don't know what else is there. >Personally I've got a Hard Drive with OPENSTEP, that's the only BSD system >I'm currently running. At least Linux development is pretty much >controlled chaos, BSD on the other had seems to be to simply be chaos. >Yes, I know that there are quite a few different Linux distributions, but >they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. > >Linux has two types of kernals, production and development. If you want >stable use production, if you want "Bleeding Edge" use development. My >Linux fileserver has been running for over 15 months with the same software >install, without a crash. > >Seriously the question you need to ask yourself when deciding which to use >is if you want a UNIX System V based system, or a BSD 4.3/4.4 based system. >If you want SysV go with Linux, if you want BSD then chose your poison, >personally I'd recommend FreeBSD for the Intel architecture, OpenBSD for >anything else. > >Realistically the two are basically the same, on the topic of documentation >is about the only real difference. You can find a ton of books specific to >Linux, as far as I know the only BSD 4.4 specific books are the Berkley >docs that Linux printed. > >I find OpenBSD of intrest because it's purpose is to be multiplatform, >however, I think the total USENET traffic for it is less than >comp.os.linux.announce > >I've got to agree with the comment that Linux is great for running >emulators. I'm still looking for a PDP-11 of my own, but in the mean time >I can play with the PDP-11 emulator under Linux and run stuff like RT-11 or >Version 5 UNIX. > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > From william at ans.net Mon Jan 5 06:58:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep > THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D OK, but how do I "extract" one from your basement? William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Jan 5 07:14:07 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Big "B", update Message-ID: For the sake of those reader not too thrilled about the current Linux and x86 threads (zzzzz...), I offer the following update... I received a bit mopre information about the units, and either they are all pieces of a single Burroughs machine, or several individual machines. What is not clear is what model they are. I hope to get more information soon. The current owners have the things half buried in surplus junk (probably good stuff, too!), so I may need to prod them along. Does anyone on this list have any sort of data on Burroughs machines? I would like to get some sort of summary on the different models before taking any possible plunges into the "real big iron" world. William Donzelli william@ans.net From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 08:51:30 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Oh my goodness! I was an ORIGINAL LINC!!!! In-Reply-To: <01bd19d8$851de080$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: I got an email from the gentleman. Turns out it wasn't a LINC-8 at all. It was an ORIGINAL LINC in GOOD condition!!!!! About knocked me off my chair reading that. What actually knocked me off my chair, however, was that he intended to keep that. DARNIT! But he said I could have everything else. Hey, beggars can't be choosers. I told him if he changed his mind, I'd have a whole 15' truck there. Maybe his wife will come out and convince him to let it go. Only time will tell. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: I'm wondering if he's not looking for cash for the LINC. I'll explore that with him when I pick up the PDP-8s. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 09:54:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105095402.4877d994@intellistar.net> At 12:08 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Send me a private email if you want to do this. I've left this public >because I thought it might be of use to others. > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > No! Leave it public. I'm curious about Linux and I'm following this. It's better than the day time soap operas! Joe > From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 08:22:41 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: WTB or Trade: GRiD 1535EXP External 3.5" disk drive Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980105092241.007d29f0@netpath.net> The subject says it all. If anyone has this or any GRiD portable equipment, let me know. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 5 09:43:26 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jan 5 10:27:12 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 11:44:48 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic > computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! I've never had anyone contact me. If they did, I'd ask them if I could buy some of their old computers by the pound. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 5 10:39:05 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 and other things Message-ID: <9800058840.AA884047610@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Once you find software on-line - One of the real bummers is that the > 8032 does not have an RS-232 port for easy communication (read: file > transfer via null-modem) nor is the 8050 drive compatible with any other > Commodore disk drive (like the 4040/2031 is compatible with the 1541 thus > making it easy to get software to a 4040 by doing a null-modem to a 64 > and writing with a 1541). I thought the 8050 was compatible with the 1571. Am I mistaken? I know it's not compatible with the 8252 (or whatever it's called - the double sided 8050 that's also built into the 8296D) which is silly and v. annoying. > Though I am not saying it is impossible; the PET does have a parallel > user port which is VERY easy to program. With a bit of coding knowledge > a few parts and soldering you could whip up a PET-to-Whatever connector > and the appropriate software for transferring files. Absolutely. I have a couple of amusing tales about this. In 1983-84, a friend, M J Richards, and I (aged 15 and 16 respectively at the time) developed an adventure game for the BBC micro. But we started by typing in all the text on an 8032, followed by compression and encryption. We then wanted to squirt this module across to the Beeb. Alas, MJR's Beeb only had OS version 0.10, which didn't support input on the serial port. Also alas, the 8032SK uses IEEE-488 (GPIB) style connectors for the user port and we didn't have any. In the end, we used the cassette motor output on the PET and the analogue input on the BBC. Data rate was 30 baud as I recall! Later we wanted to produce a full program listing from a disassembler program on the BBC. By then, 8032 had returned to Dad's office, and the only printer we had left was a Teletype ASR33. Alas again! The BBC serial port didn't support 110 baud. PET to the rescue again - I had an old ROM 8K machine. A few wires and a transistor later, I had an interface - PET received data at 4800 baud on one pin of the user port and transmitted it (via the transistor) to the Teletype on another pin. Finally, we wanted to port the software to other machines. Acorn Electron port was easy - it actually runs on the BBC micro if you try hard enough - but Commodore 64 port was more difficult. I cannot remember if I had upgraded my PET to 32K by then - I think probably not - but we somehow got it across the same 4800 baud link and onto tape, whence it was loaded onto a 64. On my list of things to do now is finish the PET port of the game... I'd be interested to hear from anyone who actually played the game - it was licensed to a software house called Alligata who sold it as "Xanadu Cottage" - about 400 copies were sold, I think (BBC model B only). Also, if anyone wants a copy for their BBC B / Electron / C= 64, please get in touch. There are still slight bugs in the tape routines for saved positions, afaik, but otherwise it runs well. Finally, who would like to see / play / beta-test a PET version? And what model(s) of PET do you have? Terms for software distribution will be shareware - if you want to pay for the game, a suitable donation to a charity caring for Hodgkins' Disease (of which MJR later died) is requested. Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 5 10:49:14 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 printer belt PN Message-ID: <9800058840.AA884048151@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Joe wrote: > I don't remember who asked for the part number for the HP 85 printer drive > belt but I finally dug out my service manual and found the numbers. There > are two belts in the printer. One drives the carriage and is PN 1500-0529. > The other drives the paper advance and is PN 1500-0572. If one is bad you > should go ahead and replace both. During the week you can call HP's > automated ordering line at 1-800-227-8164 and order them if they're still > available. Let me know if these are still available and what they cost. If > you can't get them, let me know and I'll open up one of my 85s and measure > the belts and to to match them up with something from Small Parts Inc or > one of the other companies. Thanks, Joe. Someone posted HP part numbers a while back, and my colleague is going to try the HP order line in this country first. Meanwhile, I have extracted the belts from my own HP-85 and measured them - FWIW they are 175T80 and 78T80 (according to the markings on the belts) - 0.080 inch tooth spacing, 78 teeth for the paper feed and 175 teeth for the print head. My colleague says that if he manages to buy some new ones, he will get me a spare set as well... Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 13:24:40 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105132440.52476cf8@intellistar.net> At 07:43 AM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > Zane No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 5 08:48:26 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980105084826.00bd9940@pc> John Higginbotham wrote: >At 11:20 AM 1/4/98 -0600, John Foust wrote: >>of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think >>the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because >>there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about >>learning or enjoyment? > >If you can find any message where I said that, I'd be happy to argue >against it, but I don't think I would type that in so many words. Software >companies SHOULD be able to sell these old games, but they can never expect >to get the original price out of them. It was the text in surrounding by in your January 4 message: > >Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software >cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's >computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt >todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be >freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase >productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm >are they? > I'll restate what you said, as I saw it. One, there are self-appointed software cops - you mean people who defend copyright, even of old software? Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's machines and OSes. Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's software market. Doing what? Four, you say the ten-year-rule "should" apply to games, making them (who sez?) be PD/freeware. Five, that games don't increase productivity and that "collecting" them (pirating them?) doesn't cause harm. And in your reply, you say that even if the developers sell their old games, they shouldn't expect to get the old retail price, so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is still something. My point is that people want to play games as much as use anything else when it comes to old software. They want to recreate their experience of years ago. Emulation and re-creation can be very handy! I'm surprised there aren't non-MS products that streamline the gotcha's out of running DOS, Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.x software under Win95/NT. Or maybe there is and I haven't heard of it. I'd love to get a copy of Brief that wouldn't hog so much CPU in DOS emulation under WinNT. I'm still running my 1986 copy. Is that archaic? Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish there was a better mechanism that authors of extinct software could use to allow new life for their old software. Sort of a national park or conservatory for old software would be nifty. If it resulted in payments back to the registered authors, I bet it could work. You'd need to find volunteers altruistic enough to donate their efforts in order to be able to send other people checks. The checks might be small or non-existent - perhaps the authors understand that the price charged would just fund the charity set up to distribute the software. It would be a strange sort of charity, sort of like the Old Actor's Home, except the charity cases might be Time-Warner or the programmer who was a millionaire at 15 with his Commodore 64 games, who's now pushing 30 and running his own 200+ person company. In terms of effort, the hard part will be tracking down the proper owners of all that old software. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 12:07:05 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980105084826.00bd9940@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980105130705.007db720@netpath.net> At 08:48 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: >Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't >sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's >machines and OSes. Try loading up Buck Rogers and the Planet of Zoom! on a Cyrix 200 and see how well it plays. Same goes for Frogger. :) They run blindingly fast, making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, but most of those only run right on 486s. Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's >software market. Doing what? Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect today's game market at all. It's a whole different ballpark out there these days. >so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is >still something. But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least $10.00 a piece, and you would have to come up with a cheap way to make sure the games ran at original speed on all systems, another few bucks for R&D right there, so you'll probably end up spending $50.00 for a compilation CD with maybe 10 games on it, and nothing else. (Can you say "Roberta Williams Sierra Compilation"?) Why not release the games as shareware, with no set ammount defined? People could pay what the game is worth to them. I think Maxis did that with the original SimCity. >Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish Oh, not at all. I expected alot more flak from people when I started this thread, but was suprised at how well the members of the list are taking it. (so far) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 07:24:11 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199801051818.NAA19362@mail.cgocable.net> Hi all! > >PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't > >get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" > > Arg...that kinda hurts. :) > >Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. > Multiple BSD's left me w/ my head spinning....awk! Snip! that's better. > they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. Yes to a point, Redhat uses RPM to assist installation, others (mostly) uses standard slackware installation/setup format. I'm not sure if redhat makes of the s/w from other places other than redhat especially with that installation or loading them onto hd. Good info... snip! > Realistically the two are basically the same, on the topic of documentation > is about the only real difference. You can find a ton of books specific to > Linux, as far as I know the only BSD 4.4 specific books are the Berkley > docs that Linux printed. > > I find OpenBSD of intrest because it's purpose is to be multiplatform, > however, I think the total USENET traffic for it is less than > comp.os.linux.announce > > I've got to agree with the comment that Linux is great for running > emulators. I'm still looking for a PDP-11 of my own, but in the mean time > I can play with the PDP-11 emulator under Linux and run stuff like RT-11 or > Version 5 UNIX. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jan 5 12:22:11 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Classic items up for bid. Message-ID: Just wanted to let you all know I have a few odd and ends up on e-bay right. An old TRS-80 stringy floppy drive, some TRS-80 manuals, etc. Just check for the seller coslor@bobcat.peru.edu for the complete listing of what's up there now. The stringy floppy drive comes with 11 floppy 'wafers' and the auction on that will end tonight! Just wanted to let you all know -- for whateevr it's worth?? :-) CORD ############################################################################## # Cord G. Coslor -- P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE # # (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 # # Classic computer software and hardware collector # # Autograph collector # ############################################################################## #The##/ ___ /#/ ___ /##/ ___ /#/ /##/ /#/_ __/#/ /#/ /#/ _____## #####/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /##/ /##/__/#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /####### ####/ ___ /#/ _ __/##/ /#######/ ___ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ _____/### ###/ /##/ /#/ /#\ \###/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /######### ##/__/##/__/#/_/###\_\#/________/#/__/##/__/#/______/#/_______/#/________/#### ############################################################################## From william at ans.net Mon Jan 5 12:29:06 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: More free paper Message-ID: This time it is an "HM-6100 Pocket Reference Card" from Harris Semiconductor. It is a simple one sheet affair (folded improperly, unfortunately), describing Harris's implementation of the one chip PDP-8. As with other offers, interested parties should give me a reason why they need the thing, and I will shoot it out (postage is basically nothing) to the winner. No "first come first serve" here. Also as with other offers, I can be bribed with some equally small bit of computer paper from the mini and mainframe world. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 11:18:26 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd19fd$efb552a0$LocalHost@hotze> BTW, where is that Linux emulator page? -----Original Message----- From: Wirehead Prime To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:39 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > > >> Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >> computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >> collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > >I've never had anyone contact me. If they did, I'd ask them if I could >buy some of their old computers by the pound. =-) > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 14:34:53 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <01bd19fd$efb552a0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: http://www.retrocomputing.com/software.html It's far from complete yet and needs to be redone significantly. But thar it be. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Hotze wrote: > BTW, where is that Linux emulator page? > -----Original Message----- > From: Wirehead Prime > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:39 PM > Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > > > > > > > >> Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic > >> computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > >> collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > > >I've never had anyone contact me. If they did, I'd ask them if I could > >buy some of their old computers by the pound. =-) > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > > From rws at ais.net Mon Jan 5 15:22:45 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic > computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! Funny you should mention that. Some "Debbie" asked me about advice on junking AT's, specifically for platinum in the hard drives. She said she was sure they were worth more for precious metal content than as a working computer. (I indicated my disagreement.) Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From Zeus334 at aol.com Mon Jan 5 15:51:48 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <25045102.34b155f7@aol.com> > At 08:48 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't > >sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's > >machines and OSes. > > Try loading up Buck Rogers and the Planet of Zoom! on a Cyrix 200 and see > how well it plays. Same goes for Frogger. :) They run blindingly fast, > making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, > but most of those only run right on 486s. There is a PC-based game I got on a shareware CD that came with my Pentium-75 called "Galactic Food Fight". It is blindingly fast as well. It's shareware, so if anyone wants a copy.... > Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's > >software market. Doing what? > > Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to > get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect > today's game market at all. It's a whole different ballpark out there these > days. I'm sorry, but if people say it's ok to pirate old games, even more people than now will start to say, "Well, this game is not that new", and pirate IT. Now, I have nothing against software piracy on a simple basis: either I get the program for free, and the compay loses 50 bucks, or I don't get the program at all, which means that the company is still 50 bucks short. However, my 14.4 modem helps me keep my morals straight :) > >so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is > >still something. > > But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least > $10.00 a piece, and you would have to come up with a cheap way to make sure > the games ran at original speed on all systems, another few bucks for R&D > right there, so you'll probably end up spending $50.00 for a compilation CD > with maybe 10 games on it, and nothing else. (Can you say "Roberta Williams > Sierra Compilation"?) > > Why not release the games as shareware, with no set ammount defined? People > could pay what the game is worth to them. I think Maxis did that with the > original SimCity. How many people do you suppose would buy the original frogger? Even for $5? Even if someone put a rack of frogger diskettes for free out in CompUSA or something, how many would take it? > >Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish > > Oh, not at all. I expected alot more flak from people when I started this > thread, but was suprised at how well the members of the list are taking it. > (so far) > > > - John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 17:46:13 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: guilty of piracy? (Was operating systems) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980105184605.006b5f04@netpath.net> At 04:51 PM 1/5/98 EST, you wrote: >I'm sorry, but if people say it's ok to pirate old games, even more people >than now will start to say, "Well, this game is not that new", and pirate IT. >Now, I have nothing against software piracy on a simple basis: either I get >the program for free, and the compay loses 50 bucks, or I don't get the >program at all, which means that the company is still 50 bucks short. However, >my 14.4 modem helps me keep my morals straight :) I guess we should just take this on a case by case basis. Most home pirates never get caught. The "software cops" always go after the bigtime distributors, people who make the copies and distribute them to others. I don't think it really matters, because people are gonna do what they want to do no matter what (Like me). >How many people do you suppose would buy the original frogger? Even for $5? >Even if someone put a rack of frogger diskettes for free out in CompUSA or >something, how many would take it? I sure as heck would. I never pass up on anything free. I would also pay $5 for the original Frogger if I had an XT or 286 sitting at home. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jan 5 18:24:03 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Source for drive filters Message-ID: <00a101bd1a39$cb1d6040$54987c0a@office1> Just curoius...where does one purchase new filters for DEC RK05 drives? I have three new ones, so I'm not in any immediate need. But, I'd just like to establish a source. Also, since I don't have the maintenance manual yet, what's the hours in service between filter changes? FYI...I contacted Dialight, the manufacturer of the LED replacement lamps for the RK05 drives. The lamps are still manufactured, but they're a "custom" part. Minimum order of each color is 90 at $2.47 each. If anyone is interested, let me know. The sales rep at Dialight is researching the specs on it since she is not familiar with what makes the part custom. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Last week-end, I got an original Atari 2600 brown console, in the original box. Haven't tried it yet... Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 20:35:41 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Altair Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Hi, I just picked up an Altair 8800a. It has a North Star disk drive controller in it. I think it uses a Shugart Sa400 drive. Does anyone know if it uses a hard sectored or soft sectored disk? Where can I find a SA 400? I know they were very common in the old computers. I have access to a lot of old computers (old Tandys, Commodores and other stranger things.) Can anyone tell me which ones migh t have a SA 400 drive? Yes, Yes, I know you're all going to be PO'd that I would use one of those old machines for parts, but I've offered them to people over and over and no one is interested unless I PAY them to take them. Joe From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 20:55:55 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801060111.RAA05904@mx5.u.washington.edu> > Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours: > Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!) > Why dogs lick their balls > Atheism > What makes a good marriage > Copyrights You forgot pot roasts > > Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program for > something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff > displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice Yes. I have Geoworks with no manual, but a third party "how to" book. E-mail me privately. manney@nwohio.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 5 19:46:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980105132440.52476cf8@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: >At 07:43 AM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! >> >> Zane > > No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he >wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? I wouldn't doubt it. Here is what she had to say, with my original answer, I guess I should have added that I was also trying to save them from individuals like she was talking about. Initially I just thought she was fronting for someone that dealt in classic computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides considering the fact that some of the systems I've got, like the Atari TT030 go for several hundred dollars. >Hi, Zane. > >> >Seems u have a lot of equipment, any surplus that you might give away? I >> >could get a good price for u, if you are interested. >> >> Um, No. It's a hobby, and an attempt to preserve a part of our history >> that is steadily finding it's way into our landfills. > >My local dealer supply old comps or household appliance to iron, alloy >or plastic mills. They melt them down and supply these to manufacturers. > >It's recycling. > >486-and-above systems get refurbished... > >Regards, >Crystal. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:06 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105180940.0e872806@ricochet.net> At 10:45 PM 1/2/98 +0000, you wrote: >> >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all >> >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) >> >Oh, coloring those b/w shows and movies ruined it because quality and >appearance looked offish to me. The original NTSC b/w is what is >original format designed for TV's in old days and it looked better Just for the record... That was a *joke* about colorizing movies! It should be illegal, punishable by drawing & quarterign. Movies made in b&w (well, good ones, anyway) made use of the b&w; colorizing kills a lot of what the director worked so hard for. Just did't want anyone thinking I actually *liked* colorized movies... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:21 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105180951.0e873e8e@ricochet.net> At 09:51 PM 1/2/98 PST, you wrote: >I am brimming with curiosity about the MPE OS: What is it like? > Frank is probably better off answering this than I, but... MPE is a great OS. Been around since the mid-70's, I believe. The HP3000 series of computers is (I think) somewhat comparable to the DEC PDP series. Two things you simply shouldn't be without on a 3000: Qedit and MPEX. Qedit is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS. Lots of third party support, very popular in the business side of things (accounting depts., etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:30 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181005.56a754f6@ricochet.net> At 11:52 PM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >some of the configuration tools) that you will be using an HP terminal >that supports block mode, which (approximately) lets the application Different commands from vt100 block mode of course. Most terminal emulators *don't* include HP terminal emulation. (I've got Walker Richer & Quinn's Reflections, so who cares. Though, there was a program back in the late 80's for the Atari ST that featured HP emulation; wish I'd bought a copy then!) >> What is the shell like? > >The MPE command interpreter...well, I can't speak for the MPE/iX CI. >I haven't used it enough. MPE/iX (newer version for the new CPU models) is pretty much the same as good old MPE, but with some of the extensions MPEX thought up tacked on. >Well, you get EDIT/3000, which is a line-oriented editor that is >suitable for use on all manner of terminals, even the printing ones. Actually, EDIT/3000 isn't suitable for much at all. 8^) Much like MS-DOS's EDLIN. >(e.g. Robelle's QEDIT, which lots of 3000 folks swear by). Some of us actually say our daily prayers to the Robelle Gods. Probably my favorite aspect of MPE is file equations. You can define a name and point it to just about anything, adding on a lot of control and options and stuff. For example, you could say: File Fred = Barney07.bed.rock;rec=-80,,f,ascii;disc=10000 which would mean that whenever you referenced fred (or *fred sometimes) the computer would actually use the file Barney07 in the Bed group of the Rock account (the file structure is a little wierd) and it would have an 80-byte, fixed length, ASCII (not binary) record and a limit of 10000 records in the file. You can also point to printers: File laser;dev=141,1,3 which would mean that "laser" would refer to the device on port 141, have an output priority of 1 (very low) and have 3 copies. (Note: I may have my syntax a little fouled up; that's why I use the online help a lot.) You can even reference yourself: File Me=$StdList;rec=-132,,f,ascii;nocctl which means Me is my stdlist (my screen) which has a 132 byte record (fixed-length, ascii) and doesn't use carriage control. Of course, if you're feeling really non-productive, you can do: File Output = $null 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:46 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- >just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix >utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do >something with it. Are you saying that there is no internal hard drive int the IPC? Wierd. Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:50 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181026.0e8740f0@ricochet.net> At 12:05 PM 1/3/98 -0800, Lynn & Mike wrote: >> Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, >> that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. > >Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor [...] >have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. This is *definitely* not the list for this nonsense. (Still, I'll note that if you believe that stuff, you shouldn't believe in computers, let alone use them. If you want to continue this off-list, feel free to drop me a private note.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:13:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were developed? The ones I can think of include: MFM (early 80's?) RLL (late 80's?) SCSI (late 70's?) ESDI (?) IDE any others? Thanks... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:13:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wives and hobbies (was: UNIX questions?) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181124.0e87584c@ricochet.net> First off, this goes for husbands too, since I'm sure there are women on this list (but I don't pay much attention to irrelevancies like that). At 07:01 PM 1/4/98 -0600, you wrote: >No no no. My wife, who is not at all into computers (still seems to pick >up stuff fast and I don't have to tell her how to do something more than >once usually), LOVES my hobby of collecting computers. [...] >Plus, she knows I won't give her a hard time about collecting Barbies, >books and pets...because she's so understanding about my hobby. Here's a tip: even cheaper than finding an SO with a hobby (I know what Barbies and books can go for!) find a *good*, dedicated teacher. You'll have evenings and weekends all to yourself while he/she does homework, does lesson plans, etc. Of course, there are downsides -- like getting up at 6am to drive her to school to drop off the 12page substitute teacher plans she stayed up all night doing (and to do an hours' worth of work) when she's too sick too go to school. 8^) Of course, if you want understanding *and* free time, find a teacher who collects something. That gets expensive though. (Donald Duck stuff can be even more expensive than Barbies, and there's more of it!) 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 21:25:37 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he > >wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? > computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ > get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems > that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jan 5 20:29:32 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 5, 98 08:13:35 pm Message-ID: <9801060229.AA08867@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980105/56368846/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 15:41:11 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801060237.VAA03555@mail.cgocable.net> Comments... > First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" > ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. > > Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were > developed? The ones I can think of include: > > MFM (early 80's?) > RLL (late 80's?) > SCSI (late 70's?) > ESDI (?) > IDE If you're working at interfacing... MFM and RLL is not a interface, ST506/512 is. This MFM/RLL is format and encoding type. FM was started then leads to MFM way way back around mid 70's I think, RLL was first developed by IBM and started widespread use in mid 80's but not so numerous as MFM was. SASI was around 70's roughly and begeat SCSI in early 80's. ESDI is the answer to dinky, slow MFM for upping the performance and capacity, reliablity and autoconfigure by Maxtor. MFM controllers was made by WD for AT's and later this is later born as IDE chip based on that and I still see this same chip in their WD's drives in current production. WDC42C22A I think. Compaq was first to suggest IDE idea and got WDC and Conner together in around 1985 then Conner started shipping their IDE hd's in around 1986 because I *DO* have that 1987 date on one OLD IDE conner hd. Also CDC / IMPRIMIS used this IDE on several of their 5.25" drives as well about that time. ATAPI is very late introduction to computing world in mid '90's based on IDE. Jaosn D. > > any others? Thanks... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From Zeus334 at aol.com Mon Jan 5 20:38:34 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <980105213834_-1502224976@mrin39.mx> On the subject of scrapping systems, I found too late that an IBM Convertible had gone to the trash. I didn't get to use it, and I only now found the original notepad-address book-etc. program on the IBM ftp site. I once had a computer store in the neighborhood that threw away dozens of machines (empty PC cases, mostly) each day. That moved away :( I often am forced to leave machines where they are, just because I can't have dozens of 386's and 286's in my apartment, but it's a shame. If they were lighter, I would give them to people. Now, I have a relative in NJ who says that his company throws away 486s. So much for affirmative action. One last thing. I keep seeing people mention how they get dozens of CoCos for free, find them in shops for $5, etc. Look, I have never even SEEN a CoCo, and I live in Boston, MA, where I thought there were lots of computers. I would love to run an enhanced CoCo. The worst thing is, back when that computer store was still here, I didn't know what to take. Maybe they were throwing away PDP-11s and Alphas and Crays, I will never know. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 17:55:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050342.AA27479@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 4, 98 10:42:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1638 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980105/d4f1d076/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 18:03:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 5, 98 00:08:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/136a9912/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 22:51:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105225146.605f65fa@intellistar.net> At 08:12 PM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >>I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- >>just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix >>utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do >>something with it. > >Are you saying that there is no internal hard drive int the IPC? You got it! > Wierd. You have to remember, this was built when most PCs were still using audio cassette players for storage. > >Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone >come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great >to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks! yes, it ould be great. I'm sure HP builds one. They build every imagineable interface. Probably not too small though. They use the same philosphy about size that Dr. Frankenstein did when he built his monster! I added the Integral to my website. See it at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/integral.htm" Joe > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 22:08:10 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181026.0e8740f0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > >> Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > >> that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. > > > >Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor > [...] > >have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. > > This is *definitely* not the list for this nonsense. My grandfather used to say, "You can always find the hypocrites on Sunday morning. They're sittin' in the FRONT row." Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 21:02:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 5, 98 08:13:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/d68f4003/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 23:08:52 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <980105213834_-1502224976@mrin39.mx> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105230852.63cf6d42@intellistar.net> At 09:38 PM 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >On the subject of scrapping systems, I found too late that an IBM Convertible >had gone to the trash. I didn't get to use it, and I only now found the >original notepad-address book-etc. program on the IBM ftp site. I once had a >computer store in the neighborhood that threw away dozens of machines (empty >PC cases, mostly) each day. That moved away :( I often am forced to leave >machines where they are, just because I can't have dozens of 386's and 286's >in my apartment, but it's a shame. If they were lighter, I would give them to >people. Now, I have a relative in NJ who says that his company throws away >486s. So much for affirmative action. One last thing. I keep seeing people >mention how they get dozens of CoCos for free, find them in shops for $5, >etc. Look, I have never even SEEN a CoCo, and I live in Boston, MA, where I >thought there were lots of computers. I would love to run an enhanced CoCo. >The worst thing is, back when that computer store was still here, I didn't >know what to take. Maybe they were throwing away PDP-11s and Alphas and >Crays, I will never know. > I wish I could find PDPs etc. All I find is CoCos, Tandys, RS, Timexs, etc. Send me your address privately and how much you're willing to spent and the next time I find some I'll check with you to see if you want them. There is a trift store here that had PILES of Cocos along with manuals, games, etc. They're in the process of moving and won't reopen till February. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 20:53:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 5, 98 08:12:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1011 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/0441c2d8/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jan 5 20:50:28 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <782f232d.34b19bf7@aol.com> Didnt ESDI come out when the IBM PS/2 announced? In a message dated 98-01-05 21:31:57 EST, you write: << > MFM (early 80's?) Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. > RLL (late 80's?) I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) > SCSI (late 70's?) The first official-type "SCSI specification" was proposed by an ANSI committee in 1984. It was almost backwards-compatible with SASI (Shugart Associates System|Storage Interface) which had been kicking around since 1978 or 1979. > ESDI (?) Mid-80's > IDE aka "ATA", clostely related to the announcement of the IBM AT... which would put it around 1985 or shortly afterwards? This wasn't really a new standard; the IDE bus interface looks exactly like a WD1002 hooked up to a MFM drive! > any others? The SA4000 and SA1000 interfaces date from the late 70's. And let's not forget the granddaddy of them all, SMD! (CDC, 1975 or so?) And SMD's immediate descendant, the MASSBUS... Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) >> From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 16:36:07 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <782f232d.34b19bf7@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801060332.WAA15405@mail.cgocable.net> > Didnt ESDI come out when the IBM PS/2 announced? > > SUPERDAVE, IBM didn't do it, ESDI came out first by Maxtor at least 4 years before IBM used it in their PS/2 70 servers. If there was prior to this in other IBM machines, dunno. Jason D. From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jan 5 21:33:39 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801051818.NAA19362@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Hi all! > > > they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. > Yes to a point, Redhat uses RPM to assist installation, others > (mostly) uses standard slackware installation/setup format. > I'm not sure if redhat makes of the s/w from other places other than > redhat especially with that installation or loading them onto hd. Ummm... RedHat, Caldera, and Debian can all use RPMS. Packages that aren't RPMed are usually .tar.gz or .tgz and can be installed by RTFMing. Remember, it's still possible to install windoze software that _doesn't_ use the install wizard. ttyl srw From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Jan 5 21:37:42 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> Just pry a floppy drive out of an old IBM XT. They plug right in and work, assuming you have the same North Star controller I have in my IMSAI. Herb Johnson ("Dr. S-100") explained this to me some time ago. I tried it, and it works. As he told me, the sectoring is determined by the controller, not by the drive. (One thing, though: you don't "just pick up" and Altair 8800a. You make burnt offerings of Microsoft Stock certificates, and burn incense in front of the first issue of Byte magazine, and maybe if the gods smile upon you, you are granted an Altair 8800a. You _don't_ "just pick one up". If you aren't going to treat it with the proper respect, send it to me! :-) On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 20:35:41, you wrote: >Hi, I just picked up an Altair 8800a. It has a North Star disk drive >controller in it. I think it uses a Shugart Sa400 drive. Does anyone know >if it uses a hard sectored or soft sectored disk? Where can I find a SA >400? I know they were very common in the old computers. I have access to a >lot of old computers (old Tandys, Commodores and other stranger things.) >Can anyone tell me which ones migh t have a SA 400 drive? Yes, Yes, I know >you're all going to be PO'd that I would use one of those old machines for >parts, but I've offered them to people over and over and no one is >interested unless I PAY them to take them. > > > Joe -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 21:38:44 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1a54$97e53d40$LocalHost@hotze> That's TERRIBLE. I mean 486 parts can even get SOLD AS-IS for a decent sum of money. The whole system goes for a couple hundred. So if they're going to scrap 'em.... but anyway, lots of schools, non-profit orginazations, etc. would love to have decent 386's, and 486's would be better. Sure, you can't play Quake on 'em, but a 386 was designed with 10 years of x86 software in mind. And, as history has proven, it is easy to destroy, as the Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, and Greeks did, but it is so hard to CREATE and PRESERVE. That's why we must try to save these things. Eventually, when your or my XT is one of the last 60-75, we probably won't be alive, but the future genereations will love seeing a working one. Well, there's my $0.02 on this. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 4:51 AM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** >>At 07:43 AM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >>>Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >>>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >>>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! >>> >>> Zane >> >> No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he >>wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? > >I wouldn't doubt it. Here is what she had to say, with my original answer, >I guess I should have added that I was also trying to save them from >individuals like she was talking about. > >Initially I just thought she was fronting for someone that dealt in classic >computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ >get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems >that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides >considering the fact that some of the systems I've got, like the Atari >TT030 go for several hundred dollars. > >>Hi, Zane. >> >>> >Seems u have a lot of equipment, any surplus that you might give away? I >>> >could get a good price for u, if you are interested. >>> >>> Um, No. It's a hobby, and an attempt to preserve a part of our history >>> that is steadily finding it's way into our landfills. >> >>My local dealer supply old comps or household appliance to iron, alloy >>or plastic mills. They melt them down and supply these to manufacturers. >> >>It's recycling. >> >>486-and-above systems get refurbished... >> >>Regards, >>Crystal. > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 21:39:10 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01bd1a54$a654eb00$LocalHost@hotze> OK... I've got a Cyrix 200, so give me your games. ;-) (Implying that you give me the listences, without them "installed" on any other machine) Or, if you've got some sharware.... -----Original Message----- From: John Higginbotham To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 9:08 PM Subject: Re: operating systems >At 08:48 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: > >>Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't >>sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's >>machines and OSes. > >Try loading up Buck Rogers and the Planet of Zoom! on a Cyrix 200 and see >how well it plays. Same goes for Frogger. :) They run blindingly fast, >making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, >but most of those only run right on 486s. > > Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's >>software market. Doing what? > >Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to >get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect >today's game market at all. It's a whole different ballpark out there these >days. > >>so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is >>still something. > >But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least >$10.00 a piece, and you would have to come up with a cheap way to make sure >the games ran at original speed on all systems, another few bucks for R&D >right there, so you'll probably end up spending $50.00 for a compilation CD >with maybe 10 games on it, and nothing else. (Can you say "Roberta Williams >Sierra Compilation"?) > >Why not release the games as shareware, with no set ammount defined? People >could pay what the game is worth to them. I think Maxis did that with the >original SimCity. > >>Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish > >Oh, not at all. I expected alot more flak from people when I started this >thread, but was suprised at how well the members of the list are taking it. >(so far) > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 23:44:06 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105234406.52072600@intellistar.net> Tony said: > If anyone has this spec, I'll consider building this interface. Done! I have some specs. if it's not enough I'll get the rest by hook or crook! I could use a hard drive in my Integrals! Joe At 02:53 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >> Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone >> come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great >> to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks! > >This gets discussed by PERQ-fanatics from time to time (PERQs use strange >hard drives - SA4000s, Micropolis 1200s, ST506 interface things that are >no longer available). I've got a few schematics sort-of sketched out >(microcontroller + buffer RAM + ROM + GPIB chip + SCSI chip, for example >(or maybe I'd bit-bang the interfaces using parallel port chips).), but >I've not figured out how to write the control software yet. > >In fact what's really holding me back is that I don't have a >specification of the CS/80 or amigo command sets (the commands that HP >used for their drives, and which are sort-of a de-facto standard). If >anyone has this spec, I'll consider building this interface. > > > >> Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > >-tony > > From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Mon Jan 5 21:52:54 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980106145254.007d4e40@isd.canberra.edu.au> At 21:25 5/01/98 -0600, Anthony Clifton wrote: > >> Anything other than 486+ >> get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems >> that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. > >You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd >rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably >efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a >landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away >under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them >scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Actually, here in Canberra (which is the capital of Australia, *not* Sydney or Melbourne (off topic, but one of my pet peeves, sorry)), I'd much prefer they go to landfill. You see, at our local landfills there is a company called Revolve that has scavenging rights, and rescues all this stuff. I've picked up a Tandy CoCo 3 with box, manuals and some software, a Commodore 64 with Datasette, music keyboard overlay, manuals, software and box, a Commodore 128, a Commodore 1541-II and 1571 floppy drive,a BBC Model B with floppy drive, an Atari 1024STfm with monitor, a Amstrad CPC464 with monitor and an Apple IIe with disk drive, all for about $5 to $10 each. All of them except the Atari ST worked fine at first switch-on (the ST still doesn't work - I suspect a memory fault). I also managed to pick up four Vectrex cartridges for $2. It's now got to the point that people often drop their stuff off directly at Revolve rather than dumping it at the landfill (especially now the local government has instituted a fee to dump stuff at the landfill). Of course, the only problem is that since all the stuff is stored outside you have to get to it before the rain hits... Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| |Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | | University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| | scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jan 5 22:03:20 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801060237.VAA03555@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Jan 5, 98 09:41:11 pm Message-ID: <9801060403.AA09136@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980105/edaf77eb/attachment.ksh From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 22:04:41 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980105230349.006e5cd8@netpath.net> The biggest chunk of my collection are games that I no longer have boxes for, etc. Let alone original disks or license agreements. Heck, I think even most of the companies are out of business by now. Anyone remember Datasoft? Epyx? At 06:39 AM 1/6/98 +0300, you wrote: >OK... I've got a Cyrix 200, so give me your games. ;-) (Implying that you >give me the listences, without them "installed" on any other machine) Or, >if you've got some sharware.... -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 23:21:39 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <01bd1a54$97e53d40$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: > And, as history has proven, it is easy to destroy, as the Romans, > Egyptians, Sumerians, and Greeks did, but it is so hard to CREATE and > PRESERVE. That's why we must try to save these things. Eventually, when Uhhhhhhh....hmmmmmmm...never mind, it'd be off topic. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 6 00:13:22 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980106001322.5fd73876@intellistar.net> At 03:37 AM 1/6/98 GMT, you wrote: You _don't_ "just pick one up". If you >aren't going to treat it with the proper respect, send it to me! :-) Oh forgive me Great Altair in the sky, father of all computers. I will burn ten PS2s in atonement. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 6 00:19:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980106145254.007d4e40@isd.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980106001954.5207294c@intellistar.net> Great news. Not just for the computers but for all the other itms that can be used. Reusing is a lot more efficient than recycling. There's a surplus store near here that people drop a lot of old stuff off at. The store owner leaves it out front and it's free to anyone that wants it. That's how I got my IBM 5100. $0.00 FREE ! ( I won't make the mistake of saying that I picked it up :-) At 02:52 PM 1/6/98 +1100, you wrote: >At 21:25 5/01/98 -0600, Anthony Clifton wrote: > >> >>> Anything other than 486+ >>> get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems >>> that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. >> >>You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd >>rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably >>efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a >>landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away >>under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them >>scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... > >Actually, here in Canberra (which is the capital of Australia, *not* Sydney >or Melbourne (off topic, but one of my pet peeves, sorry)), I'd much prefer >they go to landfill. You see, at our local landfills there is a company >called Revolve that has scavenging rights, and rescues all this stuff. >I've picked up a Tandy CoCo 3 with box, manuals and some software, a >Commodore 64 with Datasette, music keyboard overlay, manuals, software and >box, a Commodore 128, a Commodore 1541-II and 1571 floppy drive,a BBC Model >B with floppy drive, an Atari 1024STfm with monitor, a Amstrad CPC464 with >monitor and an Apple IIe with disk drive, all for about $5 to $10 each. >All of them except the Atari ST worked fine at first switch-on (the ST >still doesn't work - I suspect a memory fault). I also managed to pick up >four Vectrex cartridges for $2. It's now got to the point that people >often drop their stuff off directly at Revolve rather than dumping it at >the landfill (especially now the local government has instituted a fee to >dump stuff at the landfill). > >Of course, the only problem is that since all the stuff is stored outside >you have to get to it before the rain hits... > >Regards, > >| Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| >|Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | >| University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| >| scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | > > From pvhp at forte.com Mon Jan 5 22:58:16 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Tony Duell wrote: !> MFM (early 80's?) !> RLL (late 80's?) !> SCSI (late 70's?) !> ESDI (?) !> IDE !> !> any others? Thanks... ! !I can't help with dates, but there are a lot of others : ! !SASI (forerunner of SCSI) !SMD !HPIB :-) (Seriously, HP did make large-ish hard disks with an HPIB interface) !Massbus (?) ! !And the custom ones : !Shugart SA4000 (one 50 wire cable) !Shugart SA1000 (50 wire control cable, that could be shared with 8" floppy !drives, and a 20/26 wire data cable) !DEC : R80 (almost SMD, but different enough to give you headaches!), !RK05, RL01, RK06, etc... Doubtless other manufactures had similar custom !interfaves !Diablo 30 (almost the same as RK05, but not quite) !Micropolis 1200 (either the raw 50 wire interface, or the formatted one. !There was a standard Micropolis controller for the latter) Well - now that the discussion has turned to disk drives and such I would like to ask in general (not necessarily to Tony in particular): where might I be able to find either an ESDI or a SCSI controller for the Q22 bus in a MicroVAX II? Shop names and addresses in the Bay area would be especially helpful but I am perfectly happy to look elsewhere (even DEC). Alas, the recently mentioned organization with a web page at http://www.dda.org/dda.html apparently does not list any hardware (not even if you "subscribe"(?)). Thanks to the efforts of a member of this list I am now the extremely happy owner of a uVAX II with three RD53 bootable drives (Ultrix 1.2, 2.1, && VMS 5.4 - the latter (c) 1990 and not strictly classic software :=}). At any rate, I would like to up the disk capacity of the machine by a fair amount and install a decent C compiler (Under VMS I am currently limited to DCL and MACRO as the only programming languages - oddly I have both FORTRAN and PASCAL verbs in my DCLTABLES but no such images under SYS$SYSROOT.) A big thanks to this list for information already provided as well as that anticipated. Peter Prymmer From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 5 23:03:11 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" > ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. > > Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were > developed? The ones I can think of include: > > MFM (early 80's?) | You are confusing interfaces with recording schemes. > RLL (late 80's?) | These are actually recording schemes usually on a > SCSI (late 70's?) \ an ST-506 interface. RLL is also used with > ESDI (?) \other interfaces including ESDI, SCSI, and IDE. > IDE - don > > any others? Thanks... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Jan 5 23:04:03 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980106001322.5fd73876@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980106001322.5fd73876@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34c4bb36.89711117@hoser> Now you're catching on... ;-) On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:13:22, you wrote: >At 03:37 AM 1/6/98 GMT, you wrote: You _don't_ "just pick one up". If you >>aren't going to treat it with the proper respect, send it to me! :-) > > Oh forgive me Great Altair in the sky, father of all computers. I will >burn ten PS2s in atonement. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From KFergason at aol.com Mon Jan 5 22:43:26 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: old Bernoulli stuff Message-ID: does anyone need some old Bernoulli 8in 20MB Flexible Disk Cartridges? I got about 45 of them, plus a cleaning kit. The company was gonna toss 'em. Let me know if you are interested. Kelly KFergason@aol.com From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 5 23:29:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > > >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. > > http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. And I tried filling it in as "utah" as well, knowing the approximate geography of Caldera. I'd post that private, but now that I _know_ that the OpenDOS kernel source is at the caldera.com site (and is only marginally within our charter), the CP/M source location becomes crucial to maintaining my self-respect in this forum. Or something like that. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 6 00:01:03 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> References: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34b6c856.20060752@mail.swbell.net> On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:29:50 -0500, you said: >Roger Ivie wrote: >> http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ >My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. I just tried it, and it works (for me, that is) as is. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 6 00:05:42 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <9801040917.AA02924@forte.com> References: <9801040917.AA02924@forte.com> Message-ID: <34b7c974.20346856@mail.swbell.net> On Sun, 4 Jan 98 01:17:06 PST, you said: >A web page discussing flavors and ports >at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/BSD-info/BSD.html seems to be inaccesible >at this time. I just checked it; it's there. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:13:35 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <980105213834_-1502224976@mrin39.mx> Message-ID: >mention how they get dozens of CoCos for free, find them in shops for $5, >etc. Look, I have never even SEEN a CoCo, and I live in Boston, MA, where I >thought there were lots of computers. I would love to run an enhanced CoCo. It's all in where you are, I've only seen two CoCo's, and I've got them both. Around here I can rarely find anything as cheap as $5. In fact amazingly enough the only two systems that come to mind are a TI-99/4A and a Mac Colour Classic, both from the same store at different times! (I really need to go there more often) | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:21:06 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <01bd1a54$97e53d40$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <199801060617.BAA29650@mail.cgocable.net> > That's TERRIBLE. I mean 486 parts can even get SOLD AS-IS for a decent sum > of money. The whole system goes for a couple hundred. So if they're going > to scrap 'em.... but anyway, lots of schools, non-profit orginazations, etc. > would love to have decent 386's, and 486's would be better. Sure, you can't > play Quake on 'em, but a 386 was designed with 10 years of x86 software in > mind. Yepper! I would beat up that one because of several things also real nice to donate those to schools, etc and including me looking for some parts to fix some other items. AS IS at that price? No way! Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:21:06 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: <199801051818.NAA19362@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199801060617.BAA29643@mail.cgocable.net> > On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Ummm... RedHat, Caldera, and Debian can all use RPMS. Packages that > aren't RPMed are usually .tar.gz or .tgz and can be installed by RTFMing. Thanks, just wondering... :) But when I use the program to manage all s/w much like the win95's feature, will this kind still work? > Remember, it's still possible to install windoze software that _doesn't_ > use the install wizard. > > ttyl > srw Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:21:07 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 5, 98 00:08:31 am Message-ID: <199801060617.BAA29647@mail.cgocable.net> > When I tried Linux for the first time, I got all sorts of strange > problems - fdisk would ignore the keyboard - sometimes, I'd get odd > output, etc. It turned out (after a lot of looking at schematics, then at > the logic analyser, then at the schematic again) that my memory board had > a subtle timing problem (caused, in part, by the fact that it was a > 2-sided board with no ground plane, and the ground was bouncing all over > the place). MS-DOS programs (even ones that used extended memory) never > noticed this. Memory diagnostics, left running overnight, never found it. > But Linux did. So check your memory... > > Also, Linux sometimes uses hardware in ways that MS-DOS doesn't. I've had > a cheap clone keyboard fail to work with Linux as it didn't correctly > implement a couple of the commands in the IBM Techref. I doubt this is > the problem, thought. > > -tony See? Many generics unless it's decent ones for a generics is not worth the trouble most of time. I wonder if you could just make another memory board with fewer memory chips to keep things shorter and compact? Good ones I would think of is 256K x 16bit DRAM's, still available for about 7 cdn each. And downright quick at 70 to 60ns. Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:23:17 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" >ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. > >Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were >developed? The ones I can think of include: > >MFM (early 80's?) >RLL (late 80's?) >SCSI (late 70's?) >ESDI (?) >IDE > >any others? Thanks... DMA/ACSI Some of the models of the Atari ST series had a port to connect ACSI hard drives, in fact I think all of them except the Falcon had a port for this, from what I understand it was pretty hidious. Sounds simular to the HD's originally used on the Macintosh 128/512 that connected to the external floppy contector (no idea what it was, probably MFM). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:32:17 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >Just pry a floppy drive out of an old IBM XT. They plug right in and >work, assuming you have the same North Star controller I have in my >IMSAI. Herb Johnson ("Dr. S-100") explained this to me some time ago. >I tried it, and it works. As he told me, the sectoring is determined So does this mean I could plug one of these drives into the Pertec Floppy controller I've got, looking at the manual I think it's a FD2411 controller dating to about 1977. I gather that it expects to find a Model FD200 Flexible Disk Drive. If not any other ideas on where I could get one of these drives? Might be easier than getting the controller for the pair of 8" drives I've not been able to identify. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:35:29 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801060631.BAA01489@mail.cgocable.net> > > DMA/ACSI > Some of the models of the Atari ST series had a port to connect ACSI hard > drives, in fact I think all of them except the Falcon had a port for this, > from what I understand it was pretty hidious. > > Sounds simular to the HD's originally used on the Macintosh 128/512 that > connected to the external floppy contector (no idea what it was, probably > MFM). > > Zane Zane!? Spits out water! What? I have seen exactly like that, uses driver on an bootable mac disk to talk to that hd via serial port. ZZZZZZ.....what? program loading done? hummpth... once again Click, tap tap click to do someting...yawn!.... waiting form some thing to exhange stuff around between two. :) Better have Mac+ not that serial method! :) Jason D. > From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 6 00:33:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** References: Message-ID: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > > No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he > > >wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? > > computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ > > get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems > > that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides > > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Within a century or so, archeologists will be going through the landfills where something might be salvageable. Something melted down and made into into a (kind to the earth) candleholder isn't. Q: How many evironmentalists does it take to replace a light bulb? A: None. Darkness is part of nature. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:38:14 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105180940.0e872806@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801060634.BAA01783@mail.cgocable.net> > Just for the record... That was a *joke* about colorizing movies! It > should be illegal, punishable by drawing & quarterign. Movies made in b&w > (well, good ones, anyway) made use of the b&w; colorizing kills a lot of > what the director worked so hard for. > > Just did't want anyone thinking I actually *liked* colorized movies... 8^) I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality. Jason D. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:52:19 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199801060648.BAA03464@mail.cgocable.net> Eyes glazes over thinking what it looks like 1k years later in landfills. Badly yellowed board and plastic, crumbling at a touch, all traces gone, thin parts eaten away, thick layer rust covering seized up drives, riddled with rustout holes in cases, blackened glass. Hard and darkened as soapstone that once was solder joints. Mass of green strings with bits of faded colored platic material hanging on in rags was former wires. Some crushed byond understanding, holding up a part, "what this?" And there's the thing,...ow! bitten by still charged tube! :) lots of rotted, more-less bodies of chips with legs all eaten away rattling around... Ah! I have seen the plastic rot (dulling on the plastic chips), anyone have seen this? Jason D. > Within a century or so, archeologists will be going through the > landfills where something might be salvageable. Something melted > down and made into into a (kind to the earth) candleholder isn't. > > Q: How many evironmentalists does it take to replace a light bulb? > A: None. Darkness is part of nature. > -- > Ward Griffiths > Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? > WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:51:44 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801060631.BAA01489@mail.cgocable.net> References: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >> >> DMA/ACSI >> Some of the models of the Atari ST series had a port to connect ACSI hard >> drives, in fact I think all of them except the Falcon had a port for this, >> from what I understand it was pretty hidious. >> >> Sounds simular to the HD's originally used on the Macintosh 128/512 that >> connected to the external floppy contector (no idea what it was, probably >> MFM). >> >> Zane >Zane!? > >Spits out water! What? I have seen exactly like that, uses driver >on an bootable mac disk to talk to that hd via serial port. >ZZZZZZ.....what? program loading done? hummpth... once again >Click, tap tap click to do someting...yawn!.... >waiting form some thing to exhange stuff around between two. :) > >Better have Mac+ not that serial method! :) Ack, an old Mac accessing the HD over serial? That's even uglier than what I'm refering to, that sounds worse than going off of Floppies. The HD I'm talking about is a 20Mb disk that connects through the floppy connecter and as such the Mac can boot off of the HD. I'm possitive that it was intended for the Mac 128 and 512 since the Mac Plus has SCSI, but the one time I've had one it was attached to a Mac Plus. Unfortunatly I no longer have it, I got it last year when I was putting together a pair of Mac Plus systems for my cousins 18 month old twins (they really love those computer :^). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 6 01:39:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> <34b6c856.20060752@mail.swbell.net> Message-ID: <34B1DFB9.238A9F0A@cnct.com> Barry Peterson wrote: > > On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:29:50 -0500, you (gram@cnct.com) said: > > >Roger Ivie wrote: > >> http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ > > >My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. > > I just tried it, and it works (for me, that is) as is. > _______________ > > Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net > Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, > Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. It worked this time. Must have been down for a couple of hours. Even my own users complain when that happens. Must be why I hate them (the users -- not these folks, by the gods,no). But I thought I'd explored every link from the Caldera pages. (And just now checking, I find this one. One of my two remaining brain cells may be dropping bits.) -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From pvhp at forte.com Tue Jan 6 02:21:06 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <9801060821.AA02069@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: UNIX questions? Barry Peterson wrote: !On Sun, 4 Jan 98 01:17:06 PST, you said: ! ! ! !>A web page discussing flavors and ports !>at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/BSD-info/BSD.html seems to be inaccesible !>at this time.=20 ! !I just checked it; it's there. Thanks for the reminder, I can see it now too. Bruce Lane had a question about netbooting BSD on a DEC 3100 MIPs machine. I thought that I had squirreled away some info on it - but it turns out to be pertinent to VAX not MIPs. If it is of any use to anyone herein was the posting to the linux-vax list from this past Oct 6: !=================== begin include 8< ======================= Sender: linux-vax@ise.canberra.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: Brian Chase To: pvhp@forte.com Subject: VAXstation Netboot HOWTO Update. X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Linux Vax Port List I've made some minor content modifications to the VAXstation Netboot HOWTO. More are on the way as hopefully the IRIX, Solaris, and NeXTSTEP sections are completed. I've reworked the HOWTO using the Linux Documentation Project's SGML-tools. So now the HOWTO comes in a slighly different plain text flavor and a super-nifty HTML version. http://www.carpediem.com/~brianc/projects/vaxen/VAXstation-netboot-HOWTO http://www.carpediem.com/~brianc/projects/vaxen/VAXstation-netboot-HOWTO.html -brian. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian D. Chase Systems Coordinator brian.chase@carpediem.com -- Compression, Inc. - 13765 Alton Pkwy, Suite B - Irvine, CA 92618, USA -- !====================== end include ======================== Peter Prymmer From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 04:37:04 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980106053519.0068ab80@netpath.net> For the longest time, when I was very young, I thought those movies were made in black and white because everything WAS black and white. Crazy, huh? At 01:38 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what >colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 6 06:57:51 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <9800068841.AA884120678@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > they go to landfill. You see, at our local landfills there is a company > called Revolve that has scavenging rights, and rescues all this stuff. > I've picked up a Tandy CoCo 3 with box, manuals and some software, a > Commodore 64 with Datasette, music keyboard overlay, manuals, software and > box, a Commodore 128, a Commodore 1541-II and 1571 floppy drive,a BBC Model > B with floppy drive, an Atari 1024STfm with monitor, a Amstrad CPC464 with > monitor and an Apple IIe with disk drive, all for about $5 to $10 each. > All of them except the Atari ST worked fine at first switch-on (the ST > still doesn't work - I suspect a memory fault). I also managed to pick > up four Vectrex cartridges for $2. It's now got to the point that > people often drop their stuff off directly at Revolve rather than > dumping it at the landfill (especially now the local government has > instituted a fee to dump stuff at the landfill). > > Of course, the only problem is that since all the stuff is stored outside > you have to get to it before the rain hits... You lucky beggar! I wish there was something like that around here (central England)! Rain is not as bad as many people think. The water is (fairly) pure, and things often only need drying. When I upgraded my Commodore 8296 to an 8296D, the parts came from a machine in the skip at work - some of them I had to dig out of the snow... Philip. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 6 07:50:33 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> Message-ID: <13322047134.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [About the method of acquiring an 8800a] Is there any way I can modify this so as to get a KA-10? :-) ------- From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Jan 6 08:43:24 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801060648.BAA03464@mail.cgocable.net> References: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980106094324.00b35ac0@mail.wincom.net> At 01:52 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >Eyes glazes over thinking what it looks like 1k years later in >landfills. Badly yellowed board and plastic, crumbling at a touch, >all traces gone, thin parts eaten away, thick layer rust covering >seized up drives, riddled with rustout holes in cases, blackened >glass. Hard and darkened as soapstone that once was solder joints. >Mass of green strings with bits of faded colored platic material >hanging on in rags was former wires. Some crushed byond >understanding, holding up a part, "what this?" And there's the >thing,...ow! bitten by still charged tube! :) lots of rotted, >more-less bodies of chips with legs all eaten away rattling around... > >Ah! > >I have seen the plastic rot (dulling on the plastic chips), anyone >have seen this? > >Jason D. > > I once had a Philips tape recorder brought into my shop for repairs that had been buried in a back yard. (?) Even after a short period of time it was a very sick machine. Also,(off topic, please forgive me, Bill) the mind boggles at the thought of the civic officials who bury vhs tapes in time capsules, to be dug up in a hundred years!!! Regards Charlie Fox From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 6 09:12:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> <>landfills. Badly yellowed board and plastic, crumbling at a touch, <>all traces gone, thin parts eaten away, thick layer rust covering <>seized up drives, riddled with rustout holes in cases, blackened <>glass. Hard and darkened as soapstone that once was solder joints. <>Mass of green strings with bits of faded colored platic material Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of preservation. Some cases there were newspapers in the middle of the stack that were as fresh as printed in appearance. Yet in another layer old papers were completely composted. I'd suspect that old technology would be found the same way, some just oxidized piles and others completly intact. Allison From william at ans.net Tue Jan 6 10:13:50 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Message-ID: > > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! Yes, that was completely tactless on their part. Maybe if they collect something like Hummels, perhaps you should have offered to grind them up to make spackle. > > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd > > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably > > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a > > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away > > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them > > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... I agree here, and for the most part, the majority of computers end up being recycled, either in the U.S. or abroad. I have nothing against the scrappers, other than those that flat out refuse to deal with the collectors. It is VERY efficient (something like 98% by mass get recycled now - CRTs and some photocopier parts are the only stumbling blocks), and frankly, one can make a good living at it. What one can not make a good living at is refurbishing them - they just get devalued too fast. Lets face it, we can not save it all. True, we should try to get the goodies into the collector's hands so they survive. Often in makes more sense to try to resell a system than to scrap it (like the TT030). For the most part, however, computers (and other electronics) probably should be scrapped. For example, one place I deal with in Kansas City (and now Chicago) has a roomful of IBM Series/1 minicomputers all humming away. Eventually, they will get decommissioned. If I were a scrapper and won the bid for them (sometimes the bid just means picking them up!), I would keep one for myself, one sripped down for spares, and offer any others to members on the list (or the collecting community in general). If those latter ones do not move, they would get scrapped. This applies to just about anything, PeeCees, VT100s, ES/9000s, C64s, etc. - with the exception of the special machines (_old_ machines, prototypes, high demand collectables, etc.). Obviously, the day I scrap a S/360 will never come. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 6 05:49:39 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the > 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of > preservation. Some cases there were newspapers in the middle of the stack > that were as fresh as printed in appearance. Yet in another layer old > papers were completely composted. I'd suspect that old technology would > be found the same way, some just oxidized piles and others completly > intact. Yes, I have heard about this on Discovery Channel. And they dug up that landfill at New York and found was just grey sludge at the bottom. But most of stuff they found was still readable and bit discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. Jason D. > > Allison > > > From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 10:59:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980106115948.007c9d20@netpath.net> At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration? - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jan 6 11:05:31 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01IS1WISHX4Y9AMF2S@cc.usu.edu> > Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > > >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > > >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. > http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ > > My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. And I tried filling it in as > "utah" as well, knowing the approximate geography of Caldera. This is the unofficial CP/M site; it's not run by Caldera, but by someone who was willing to argue with Caldera long enough to get permission to put the stuff up. It's being hosted by a machine at University of Texas at Arlington: UTA. Here's what my machine gives me when i nslookup cdl.uta.edu: Name: dave.uta.edu Address: 129.107.2.554 Aliases: cdl.uta.edu > I'd post > that private, but now that I _know_ that the OpenDOS kernel source is at > the caldera.com site (and is only marginally within our charter), the > CP/M source location becomes crucial to maintaining my self-respect in > this forum. Or something like that. IIRC, the CP/M 2.2 sources are available _somewhere_ on the caldera site, but they're password protected and you have to find the right form to submit to get the password, etc. The unofficial site includes source to CP/M 2.2, 3.0, and 68K... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 6 06:17:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980106115948.007c9d20@netpath.net> References: <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199801061713.MAA02669@mail.cgocable.net> > At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: > > >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... > >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. > > What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer > capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average > conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration? Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened! The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it again, it's ruined. Jason D. > > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > > > From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 11:33:30 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801061713.MAA02669@mail.cgocable.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980106115948.007c9d20@netpath.net> <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980106123330.007c6aa0@netpath.net> At 12:17 PM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty >easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened! >The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a >favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it >again, it's ruined. What happened? Water get through a scratch and the aluminum started corroding? Never dropped one in a lake, but my Warcraft II cd took a dip in the toilet one day. I'm still wondering how it got on top of the toilet in the first place... - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 6 11:27:50 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980106112750.00b73890@pc> John Higginbotham wrote: > They run blindingly fast, >making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, >but most of those only run right on 486s. Again, there must be a market for better emulation / slowdown software. There should be a way to put the Pentium in an 8008 compatibility mode. :-) >>Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's software market. Doing what? > >Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to >get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect >today's game market at all. Yes, the sales of old software might be a very small fraction of mainstream games, so small as to have no effect - but I don't like to play fast-and-loose with self-created and self-serving notions of "it's not hurting anyone" when it comes to intellectual property issues. >But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least >$10.00 a piece, Maybe the net and micropayments will help. Or in this case, a web site with do-it-yourself downloading of $10 bundles of 20 old games might satify both the developers and the funding of the site. Shareware is a *sure* way to gather no cash, especially with a dusty product like this. Being afflicted with entrepreneur's disease, I've toyed with the idea of this as a business: collecting up the distribution rights for old software, bundling them on CD, adding emulators, and selling for reasonable prices, etc. to recreate the old computer experience. As they say, they're not making any more "retro." :-) The hard parts would be finding the rightful owners, forging acceptable contracts with each, and without giving them the impression that millions are to be made. Or in some cases, if the companies that owned the products are truly *gone*, to be willing to take the risk they wouldn't sue you if you assumed you could distribute. Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s... as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc. It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with 8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 12:51:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980106112750.00b73890@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980106135131.007db430@netpath.net> At 11:27 AM 1/6/98 -0600, you wrote: >Again, there must be a market for better emulation / slowdown software. >There should be a way to put the Pentium in an 8008 compatibility mode. :-) The games would run fine, if they weren't clock dependent. There are a handful of programmers that actually had the forethought to think of those blazing fast 386 and 486 systems of the future. :) >Maybe the net and micropayments will help. Or in this case, a web site >with do-it-yourself downloading of $10 bundles of 20 old games might >satify both the developers and the funding of the site. Shareware is >a *sure* way to gather no cash, especially with a dusty product like this. I thought about that too, but I'm not sure it would catch on. >Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s... >as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational >apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc. >It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with >8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall. I bet there's some sort of surplus/tax writeoff thingamajig at work here... - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 6 12:51:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801061851.AA28435@world.std.com> I have a Heathkit H-8 computer in working order with documentation, software, terminal (H-19), disk drives that I no longer use. I'd like to find someone who can make good use of this equipment. It would be helpful if you can handle shipping costs but everything is negotiable. If you are interested, please send email or call 408-881-3489. --Bill Hall From red at bears.org Tue Jan 6 15:15:23 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801060631.BAA01489@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Spits out water! What? I have seen exactly like that, uses driver > on an bootable mac disk to talk to that hd via serial port. > ZZZZZZ.....what? program loading done? hummpth... once again > Click, tap tap click to do someting...yawn!.... > waiting form some thing to exhange stuff around between two. :) Speaking of the Apple HD20, an external 20 meg hard disk for the Mac 512k. Since the machine it was designed to be used with does not sport a SCSI bus, it plugs into the floppy port. According to Apple, it is supported on the 512k, 512ke, Plus, and SE. Since these are the machines that support the 400k floppy drive, I suspect that it would also work on the 128k barring any memory shortages, although I haven't been able to test this yet. Apple can't decide whether or not it's supported: here it is, there it isn't. It cost over $1000 new in 1986 (although I believe it was introduced sometime in 1985). Inside is a 3.5" HH Rodime 552 disk, which actually has an Apple Disk Drive interface right on it. I had expected some sort of conversion circuitry (like the old Sun ESDI->SCSI boards), but there isn't. (400k) Average seek: 415 ms Rotational: 394, 429, 472, 525, 590 RPM Burst transfer: 489.6 Kbits/sec (serial) (HD20) Average seek: 85 ms Rotational: 2744 RPM Burst transfer: 500 Kbits/sec (serial) It looks like the 500kbits/sec is a limitation of the floppy interface and not of any device on it. Anyway, since the 512k only knows how to boot from the internal floppy, and speaks only MFS (the original, flat Mac File System---the folders are purely ornamental! Stupid trivia bit: folders on MFS disks have one extra pixel) on a 400k disk drive, Apple got creative with their solution: The Apple HD20 INIT (introduced with System Software 1.1) patches the ROM to allow the use of HFS (a 20 meg flat file system would be a horrible mess), the HD20, and the 800k disk drive. Insert the boot disk with 1.1 and the HD20 INIT, the Mac boots half-way, spits out the disk, and continues from the HD20. Kind of neat. On the Plus (and presumably 512ke), which speaks HFS and 800k disk drive natively, you can boot right off the HD20. But the Plus has SCSI, so this is trivial. ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 6 17:30:42 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <13322047134.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980106173042.460f7074@intellistar.net> At 05:50 AM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >[About the method of acquiring an 8800a] > >Is there any way I can modify this so as to get a KA-10? >:-) Well the previous owner has about 29 more old cars out there. No telling what I'll find. Keep your fingers crossed. Joe > >------- > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 6 16:43:43 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> from "Peter Prymmer" at Jan 5, 98 08:58:16 pm Message-ID: <9801062243.AA10914@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/65618abc/attachment.ksh From Zeus334 at aol.com Tue Jan 6 17:05:29 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: DECWriter II Message-ID: <8c913ff0.34b2b8bb@aol.com> I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I miss? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 6 17:36:38 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: DECWriter II In-Reply-To: <8c913ff0.34b2b8bb@aol.com> from "Zeus334" at Jan 6, 98 06:05:29 pm Message-ID: <9801062336.AA11272@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/47671437/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Tue Jan 6 18:41:44 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: DECWriter II In-Reply-To: <8c913ff0.34b2b8bb@aol.com> Message-ID: > I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing > bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security > camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I > couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I > miss? Do not fret over its loss, there are still hundreds (thousands?) still in active duty. Every MCI site I have been to has at least a few floating around, sometimes connected to the IBM S/88s. William Donzelli william@ans.net From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 6 19:15:47 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Big "B", update Message-ID: <199801070115.UAA16185@webern.cs.unc.edu> There is an awesome B205 page at the University of Virginia, plus a pretty cool B5000 page nearby. Here's the URL: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/images/manuals It looks like they scanned in the original manuals for these beasties, instead of just retyping them. Seeing the originals really adds to the presentation, IMHO. And the B205 was _so_ cool - magnetic drum as main memory! Those were the days. Cheers, Bill. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 19:35:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: H-8 Computer needs loving home In-Reply-To: <34B28B22.E83C7A90@mlmassoc.com> Message-ID: >I have a Heathkit H-8 computer in working order with documentation, >software, terminal (H-19), disk drives that I no longer use. I'd like >to find someone who can make good use of this equipment. > >It would be helpful if you can handle shipping costs but everything is >negotiable. > >If you are interested, please send email or call 408-881-3489. If still available I'm interested. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 6 19:42:02 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801070142.UAA16263@webern.cs.unc.edu> ] You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd ] rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably ] efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a ] landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away ] under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them ] scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Imagine this, fifty years from now, a web of nanotech bots climbing through and mapping a landfill, finding antique treasures, maybe getting enough chemical data to reconstruct the things before decay set in... I'd vote for the landfill over the slag heap any day. Of course, my basement, when I get one, will be the best option. ] Anthony Clifton - Wirehead Bill. Until it fills up. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 18:40:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <9801060403.AA09136@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 5, 98 08:03:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/54386250/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 6 20:07:28 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: S-bug and DELABS? Message-ID: <199801070207.VAA16293@webern.cs.unc.edu> Anybody got manuals or hints for the S-BUG and DELABS monitor ROMs? I scored a SwTPC 69/A today that has both of these, but I only sorta remember S-BUG from way-back-when, and have never even heard of DELABS. To jiggle your memories, here are some of the S-BUG commands that I remember/figured-out today: ^A - set accumulator A ^B - " " B etc. for other registers G - go to address in PC R - show registers S - show stack D - boot from disk (?) E - examine memory P - punch (motorola S19 format memory dump) As for the DELABS ROM, it seems to be involved with the EPROM burner. I suspect it can read & write EPROMs, and maybe up/download binaries over one of the serial ports. But I've only figured out a few of its commands: D - memory hex dump F - fill memory I suppose I'll end up disassembling them both eventually, but hints could make the job much easier, and maybe unnecessary. Thanks! Bill. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 18:20:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980105234406.52072600@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 5, 98 11:44:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 796 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/0093e549/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 19:11:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: DECWriter II In-Reply-To: <9801062336.AA11272@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 6, 98 03:36:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1533 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/be668ff6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 18:44:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> from "Peter Prymmer" at Jan 5, 98 08:58:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 918 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/072a172c/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 20:28:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: H-8 Computer needs loving home In-Reply-To: References: <34B28B22.E83C7A90@mlmassoc.com> Message-ID: Argh, how embarassing, sorry about sending that to the list. Guess I'll quite laughing when people do that :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 06:53:51 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1aa2$233a7660$LocalHost@hotze> Oops... well, scratch that. but the Romans DID conquer, the Eqyptians DID kill, the Sumerians did a few things, and the Greeks... well, let's just say that they didn't really mind war. OK? -----Original Message----- From: Wirehead Prime To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:14 AM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > > >> And, as history has proven, it is easy to destroy, as the Romans, >> Egyptians, Sumerians, and Greeks did, but it is so hard to CREATE and >> PRESERVE. That's why we must try to save these things. Eventually, when > >Uhhhhhhh....hmmmmmmm...never mind, it'd be off topic. > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 07:39:38 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <01bd1aa8$8957c320$LocalHost@hotze> >>Ummm... RedHat, Caldera, and Debian can all use RPMS. Packages that >> aren't RPMed are usually .tar.gz or .tgz and can be installed by RTFMing. >Thanks, just wondering... :) But when I use the program to manage >all s/w much like the win95's feature, will this kind still work? I don't know about the others, but pre-install Debian has a program that lets you choose filesystem types. There are also options on dselect. (Debian's version of RPM. It's a lot simplier, but still more powerful than NT will be for sometime to come.) Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 06:57:18 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1aa2$9e6b53e0$LocalHost@hotze> Sure. I've seen 486/33DX systems with 4MB of RAM and Windows 3.1 go for around $275. So 386's don't sell for that... but still... and you could sell high-end 486's for much more than that. Heck, AMD even made the X5, a 586 compatible processor for 486/DX4 motherboards that works at 133MHz. Those go for around $500. -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 9:18 AM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > That's TERRIBLE. I mean 486 parts can even get SOLD AS-IS for a decent sum > of money. The whole system goes for a couple hundred. So if they're going > to scrap 'em.... but anyway, lots of schools, non-profit orginazations, etc. > would love to have decent 386's, and 486's would be better. Sure, you can't > play Quake on 'em, but a 386 was designed with 10 years of x86 software in > mind. Yepper! I would beat up that one because of several things also real nice to donate those to schools, etc and including me looking for some parts to fix some other items. AS IS at that price? No way! Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 21:03:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: References: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> from "Peter Prymmer" at Jan 5, 98 08:58:16 pm Message-ID: >This is going to annoy certain people, but... > >A few years ago a UK surplus company had a few Emulex SCSI cards for the >Qbus (with the ability to add the extra address lines by plugging in a >TTL chip, which was also supplied), boxed, with user manual, for \pounds >10.00 each (about $15). I bought a couple for myself, and mentioned it >to a friend who was a VAX sysadmin. I then went back and bought their >entire stock (12 more cards IIRC). They were then passed on to people who >were seriously using MicroVAXen... > >I still have my 2 cards, but I'm not selling them yet. > >> Peter Prymmer > >-tony You Sir, are a cruel and heartless man! I would love to have SCSI for my system, so I could get it up and running, but can't afford a few hundred dollars for the controller. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wpe at interserv.com Tue Jan 6 21:12:22 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: DECWriter II References: Message-ID: <34B2F295.A162921D@interserv.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing > > > bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security > > > camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I > > > couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I > > > miss? > > > > A nice hardcopy terminal, apparently with a stand. > > Nice? I personally don't care for the things... > > It's a 7 pin dot matrix printer with all the electronics in the stand (2 > main boards - PSU/motor drivers/head drivers and control logic. I suppose > it's useable, but I'll keep my KSR43 and DECwriter 100, thanks... > > There's an interesting design 'feature' in the LA36 (DECwriter 2). > There's no carriage end-stop switch. What happens is that the carriage > hits the end stop, stalls the motor, and no pulses come from the shaft > encoder on the motor. The control logic detects this and switches off the > motor. > > Now, what tends to happen is the plastic keyway in the carriage belt > sprocket fails. The control logic returns the head to the LHS, but the > motor keeps turning, slipping in the sprocket. It keeps on running into a > much heavier load than normal, until the motor overheats, the insulation > burns off, and the fuse fails. > > I had one where the carriage motor drew 4A with no load (it's normally << > 1A). I had to rewind the motor - one afternoon of my time was a lot less > than what DEC charged for a new motor! I think I still have that motor > somewhere... > > > > > Tim. > > > > -tony FWIW, I remember the LA-36.... We used the LA-120 (the next generation?) as our "standard" console in our datacenter (DECsysten-10's, DECsystem-20's, VAXen).. I used to HATE the LA-100's that used to ship with the vaxen as factory supplied console terminals. I remember after one certain VAX was installed, I asked my supervisor if I should swap out the LA-100 with a spare LA-120. Words to the effect were "why?"... I stated that I felt that the thing would last about a week... "Nawh, leave it, It'll be fine" (rough quote)... Well, two nights later, the third shift operator came in, just as I was getting ready to leave. In his zeal to strip a line printer, he managed to "hip check" the LA-100 that was sitting on a wooden box (actually a support we used to elevate the LA-120 consoles so we could comfortably use them in a standing position) that was serving as it's stand. The resulting impact with the floor, immediately rendered the LA-100, for all intents, and purposes, useless. I don't know if, now, VAXen tend to crash when their console terminal "goes south" for any length of time, but, back then (days of VMS 4.), after about two minutes or so, you had a hung system... Never moved a LA-120 so fast in my life... Oh, my boss heard what happened. When asked "when they fix th' 100, you want me to swap it back?", the answer was a brief "Nope!". I actually have one of those "evil" LA-100's.. Glad I overcame my dislike for th' thing.. Will . From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 21:19:56 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980106221930.006c1c9c@netpath.net> At 03:57 PM 1/6/98 +0300, you wrote: >586 compatible processor for 486/DX4 motherboards that works at 133MHz. >Those go for around $500. I had one of those. Had it overclocked to 160mhz, beat the pants of a P100. I think I paid $150 for the board and chip about a year and a half ago. I wonder what that'll look like next to the systems 10 years from now? -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 6 21:58:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil References: <3.0.32.19980106053519.0068ab80@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34B2FD60.B65BCAFC@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > For the longest time, when I was very young, I thought those movies were > made in black and white because everything WAS black and white. Crazy, huh? > > At 01:38 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: > > >I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what > >colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality. Not seeing it on a color set until age 15 or 16 (call it 1971), I never understood the significance of "The Wizard of OZ" (which scared the crap out of me as a kid, that nonsense about parents tragging their brats out of "Return to OZ" in '85 because of the seeing a kid threatened with electroshock left those kids with an expectation of something horrible about to happen that their parents denied the resolution of -- hopefully, those kids have since seen it on TV and resolved the trauma their parents gave them, it's a lot less scary than the first sound [and color] OZ movie). OBclassic, in "Return to OZ (more than ten years ago) we did have an AI. Mechanical, reminded of my long-lost DigiComp One that I could never quite interface to my Mr. Machine. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 6 22:02:03 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: DECWriter II Message-ID: <199801070402.AA09734@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34B30547.9E7F987B@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The same set of books describes the train descriptor system used on the > London Underground. It consisted of a drum with 4 rows of pins on it. > Each pin could be in or out. The drum rotated past a 'write' device that > set the pins to one of 16 states corresponding to 16 different types of > trains. A 'read' device consisting of contacts/switches rotated inside > the drum, detecting the postitions of the pins in a given column. It was > an electromechanical version of the classic circular buffer with read and > write pointers... If anyone's in London and wants to see this device, > there's one in the London Transport Museum, BTW. An excuse to visit England at last. (Wales, Scotland and Ireland have been my only reason to consider crossing the Atlantic -- the "roots" gig -- haven't done it yet anyway.) I know damned well there's nothing like that over in the New York Subway Museum in Brooklyn. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From weese at mind.net Tue Jan 6 22:39:37 1998 From: weese at mind.net (Lynn & Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Visicalc -- NOT -- I beg your pardon Message-ID: <199801070454.UAA10641@one.mind.net> Apologies to all. On 1/3/98 at 12:05pm I attempted to send a private note to Ward Donald Griffiths III, concerning his signature...... but it was posted publicly instead. It was an accident. I believe that any group needs to limit the discussion pretty strictly to the stated topic only, as I've seen how it can get too far afield on other groups. For the record, I hit the "reply to author" button, & it replied to everybody. I'll try my best to be more careful in the future. Most of the people in the group simply ignored it, possibly the most appropriate thing to do. About six (not many out of 200 total) reminded me that the subject was classic computers, with varying degrees of civility -- nuff sed. The absolute standout First Prize response was from Uncle Roger, with such a bizzare comment that I am left speechless -- thanx Unc -- I will be driving down to SF when you least expect it, & deliver your new big heavy bible up side yo head. Just kidding. ---mikey From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 6 22:58:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> At 05:46 PM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >>It's recycling. Don't get pissed off. Look at it as an opportunity. They're in business to make money; they don't care about preserving history or any goody-two-shoes thing like that. So offer 'em 5 cents/pound more than the melters if you get first crack at older systems. And, contrary to what the media seems to think, continued used is actually better than recycling something. (Which is why I drive a 38 year old car rather than a brand new, *recyclable* one that doesn't get any better gas mileage.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 6 23:22:13 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Software Piracy [again] and In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote: > [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I > saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons > -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I > still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] Use a citrus-based spray cleaner on this (I use a product called "Touch of Orange" that I bought from a Home&Garden show). It literally melts oil-based substances right off the srufaces while leaving the object un-marred in any way, and as a bonus leaves a nice orange scent in the air. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 23:29:12 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS Message-ID: I've gotten back to looking into getting the my VAXstation up and running. This has gotten me to thinking, how many MIPS is a VUP? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 23:41:19 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Update: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Well, I've now exchanged four messages with her, and it's obvious that she's the dealer. In the third message she was wondering how she could sell old computers, so I gave her some advice, including to find out what the average price seems to be, and to undercut it otherwise she'll find herself sitting on useless stock :^) Tonites message was asking me if I was intending to collect legacy mainframes and mini's. Talk about a jump, such things hadn't even been mentioned, the closest thing on my webpage is a VAXstation. It's enough to make me glad I've been more or less polite instead of flaming her! Needless to say I sent her a message tonite letting her know that I'm interested, and if it's something I don't want (probably due to where it is) that I'd pass the information onto people that will be interested. Who knows what started out as an insult, might turn out to be an interesting source. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 23:50:56 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Update: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980107004457.006f1af8@netpath.net> Where is she located exactly? At 09:41 PM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >Needless to say I sent her a message tonite letting her know that I'm >interested, and if it's something I don't want (probably due to where it >is) that I'd pass the information onto people that will be interested. > >Who knows what started out as an insult, might turn out to be an >interesting source. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jan 6 23:56:17 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Looking for info In-Reply-To: "David Williams"'s message of Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:07:27 +0000 References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> <199801031904.NAA01177@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: <199801070556.VAA14166@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "David Williams" wrote: > Also, anything on a DS200MC terminal server? Assuming you mean a DECserver 200/MC, I was using these in 1988, so I'd guess that they're acceptable for discussion on this list, or will be soon enough. As you wrote, it's a terminal server. Eight RS-232 ports with enough modem control to support most asynchronous communications needs, and an Ethernet port for connection to your LAN. As I recall there is enough firmware in the thing to request an executable image via DEC's MOP protocol, pick one responding host to download it from, and once that image is downloaded (via MOP) and running, to do terminal and printer service via DEC's LAT protocol. They do not do TCP/IP-suite protocols, though later models of DECserver may. Hence you can plug terminals, modems, printers, or computers into the RS-232 ports, and set them up so that either they connect to other computers via LAT, or so that other computers (or other terminal server ports) can connect via LAT to "services" associated with the ports. Generally speaking, they're not real useful outside DEC environments, but are very useful there. -Frank McConnell From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 00:07:52 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: I've got a line on a Tektronix 6132 workstations, and I'm wondering what exactly it is. According to the current owner it runs Berkeley UNIX ver 4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet unused for the last 8 years, so who knows if it's working. He also referred to it as a UTek workstation. I didn't even know Tek made any computers, and web searches bring up zilch. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 00:10:19 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Update: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980107004457.006f1af8@netpath.net> Message-ID: >Where is she located exactly? This I'm hoping to find out in the next message, if I don't, and if she does in fact have some interesting systems for sale, you can bet that will be my first question :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 7 00:18:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Visicalc -- NOT -- I beg your pardon In-Reply-To: <199801070454.UAA10641@one.mind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Lynn & Mike wrote: > On 1/3/98 at 12:05pm I attempted to send a private note to > Ward Donald Griffiths III, concerning his signature...... > but it was posted publicly instead. > > It was an accident. I believe that any group needs to limit > the discussion pretty strictly to the stated topic only, as > I've seen how it can get too far afield on other groups. The ironic thing about a message like this is that it perpetuates the off-topic noise. For those who commit this transgression in the future, please keep this in mind: assume that most of us understand (as we have all invariably done it) and we accept your assumed subsequent apology in advance, and leave it at that. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 7 00:20:37 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com's message of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:12:45 -0500 References: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801070620.WAA15101@daemonweed.reanimators.org> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) writes: > Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the > 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of > preservation. It occurs to me that 100-200 years ago we did not have certain modern conveniences, like the heavy tractors with big metal spiky rollers and/or wheels that I've seen in use at landfills. I'd guess the object is to flatten the refuse layer out by crushing it. -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 7 00:36:12 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: Tony Duell's message of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:53:50 +0000 (GMT) References: Message-ID: <199801070636.WAA15431@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Tony Duell wrote: > In fact what's really holding me back is that I don't have a > specification of the CS/80 or amigo command sets (the commands that HP > used for their drives, and which are sort-of a de-facto standard). If > anyone has this spec, I'll consider building this interface. Well, Tony, once upon a time I think I was thinking about sending you some chunks of the 7941/7945 service manual that describe some portion of the CS/80 protocol used by those devices. I vaguely recall it was enough of a subset that we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't help, but if you still think it would be useful send me your postal address and I will make a trip to the copy shop. Also it is my understanding that the "hp300" flavors of NetBSD and OpenBSD contain working code to talk to CS/80 devices. It may be in the 4.4-Lite BSD release, I think that is where I remember seeing it first. The CS/80 command-set reference is one of those manuals that HP Direct refused to sell me. I had the part number, and the HP Direct folks told me that it had been withdrawn from offer. Maybe I should give that another shot; it's been some years ago now. ... More vague memories: not all HP-IB discs talk CS/80. There was also a "subset" or "simple" protocol, SS/80. Was that "Amigo"? I can't remember. I think it is the protocol used by the 91xx discs, and those are what the Integral seems to recognize. -Frank McConnell From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 7 00:50:53 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B In-Reply-To: <01bd180b$61089060$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> from "Bill Girnius" at Jan 2, 98 11:49:38 pm Message-ID: <199801070650.BAA00757@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Girnius once stated: > > Hey guess what, very odd. If you have the cart's in and you boot to a normal > plain old DOS disk, just type 123 and it Loads!! YES! Don't know how the > heck it does it, but it does work. The cartridges for the IBM PCjr can contain either a standalone program, BIOS extentions, MS-DOS programs or tokenized BASIC programs. Each cartrige can contain upto 64K of ROM (typically 32K by 8) so there is 128K of memory space addressable through the cartridges, at address D0000 - EFFFF. The format for a stand alone or BIOS extention cartridge is: offset contents 0 $55 1 $AA 2 length of cartridge / 512 3 - 5 JMP to init code (called via far call) 6 $00 ... data last 2 locations CRC The format for the MS-DOS command cartridges 0 $55 1 $AA 2 length 3 - 5 JMP to init code 6 length of command name 7 ... n command n , n+1 16b offset to routine when 'name' is typed n+2 length of next command ($00 if end of table) n+3 , n+4 16b offset to routine ... data last 2 locations CRC The format for tokenized BASIC program cartridge (cartridge chip selects must address $D0000 as the BASIC cartridge itself is at $E0000) 0 $55 1 $AA 2 length 3 $CB 4 $AA 5 $55 6 $00 7 $FF if unprotected BASIC program $FE if protected 8 start of tokenized BASIC code n $FF padding to next 2048 byte boundary last 2 addresses CRC My feeling is that the code for the MS-DOS cartridges are run directly out of ROM, but that's all the information I have about the IBM PCjr cartridges (from the IBM PCjr Technical reference manual, 2-107 through 2-118) -spc (Thought it was a neat idea then, still does now ... ) From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Wed Jan 7 02:17:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: A Couple Acquisitions: Paper Tape & Bernoulli Drive In-Reply-To: <199801070650.BAA00757@armigeron.com> Message-ID: I was at the Rockwell Surplus outlet in Cedar Rapids today (Tuesday) and picked up a paper tape reader/punch that connects via RS-232. Highly nifty! Only $10! I'll have a closer look at it tomorrow. I also picked up a Bernoulli box (that takes the 8" cartridges) and some cartridges and can't recall who had the cartridges they were offering to a good home. If whoever you are reads this, please send me an email. That was $10 as well. I'll post more details about the paper tape machine later. I was just blown away by it. It appears to be in excellent shape. So now I can convert paper tapes for folks who don't have a reader or punch paper tapes for those who don't have a punch. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: Also acquired the money tonight to rent the truck for the PDP-8/I retrieval mission. It will be Saturday so I should have lots of cool descriptions next week! From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 22:08:48 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1b21$f508b060$LocalHost@hotze> Yes, actually, there are a couple of companies that do that. (Only recycle computers) They take PC's or Macs. They're currently mostly only used by corporate managers trying to find a green way to get rid of their Windows 3.1 machines, but they get paid a little in return. They're trying to become more home-orginized, but the word needs to get out. They report that 2% of the weight of a 3 year old computer is dust!!! As for what happens with landfills, I've heard that studies show that it's the plastic. (I'd guess that it like forms a bubble covering the newspapers, etc. blocking out all air, etc.) That would make it near-perfect preservation, even into tripple or, even quad digit numbers. Near the bottom, there's more air. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:16 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** >> > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >> > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > >Yes, that was completely tactless on their part. Maybe if they collect >something like Hummels, perhaps you should have offered to grind them up >to make spackle. > >> > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd >> > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably >> > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a >> > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away >> > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them >> > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... > >I agree here, and for the most part, the majority of computers end up >being recycled, either in the U.S. or abroad. > >I have nothing against the scrappers, other than those that flat out >refuse to deal with the collectors. It is VERY efficient (something like >98% by mass get recycled now - CRTs and some photocopier parts are the >only stumbling blocks), and frankly, one can make a good living at it. >What one can not make a good living at is refurbishing them - they just >get devalued too fast. > >Lets face it, we can not save it all. True, we should try to get the >goodies into the collector's hands so they survive. Often in makes more >sense to try to resell a system than to scrap it (like the TT030). For the >most part, however, computers (and other electronics) probably should be >scrapped. For example, one place I deal with in Kansas City (and now >Chicago) has a roomful of IBM Series/1 minicomputers all humming away. >Eventually, they will get decommissioned. If I were a scrapper and won the >bid for them (sometimes the bid just means picking them up!), I would keep >one for myself, one sripped down for spares, and offer any others to >members on the list (or the collecting community in general). If those >latter ones do not move, they would get scrapped. This applies to just >about anything, PeeCees, VT100s, ES/9000s, C64s, etc. - with the exception >of the special machines (_old_ machines, prototypes, high demand >collectables, etc.). Obviously, the day I scrap a S/360 will never come. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 22:14:07 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** CD-Decomposition Message-ID: <01bd1b22$b26d7dc0$LocalHost@hotze> What did you expect? I mean, it was in the lake, with moving water all around it, fish, plants, and lord knows what else brushing aginst it, and so forht. The perfect form of data preservation is probably punched tape, or, ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent. -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 8:15 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: > > >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... > >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. > > What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer > capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average > conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration? Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened! The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it again, it's ruined. Jason D. > > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > > > From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 7 04:23:30 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** CD-Decomposition Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980107052322.006c1e80@netpath.net> At 07:14 AM 1/7/98 +0300, you wrote: >ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that >read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course >that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent. How about something in a cartridge format? Alot of Video game carts these days are topping 8mb. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 7 04:34:57 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <9800078841.AA884198448@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > What happened? Water get through a scratch and the aluminum started > corroding? Never dropped one in a lake, but my Warcraft II cd took a dip > in the toilet one day. I'm still wondering how it got on top of the toilet > in the first place... I think there are plenty of mechanisms, not all well understood. Example: Thermal cycling (repeated warming and cooling) causes mechanical stresses. These grow microscopic cracks at imperfections / scratches / impurities in the plastic until there is a path for corroding chemicals (like water) to get in at the aluminium. Some CDs now use a gold layer instead of an aluminium one. I don't know how much longer these last. The above mechanism can be combated by keeping the discs in a temperature-controlled environment (a lake I would have thought would not be too bad for that but obviously it was...) - but mechanical stresses still occur when spinning up and down. Just my 2d worth. Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 7 06:57:48 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <199801071257.AA26198@world.std.com> In a message dated 98-01-07 02:11:50 EST, you write: << I also picked up a Bernoulli box (that takes the 8" cartridges) and some cartridges and can't recall who had the cartridges they were offering to a good home. If whoever you are reads this, please send me an email. That was $10 as well. >> Ah, that was me. I have 45 of the little beggers. Willing to let them go for cost of shipping + soda money. Let me know how many you want. Kelly KFergason@aol.com From william at ans.net Wed Jan 7 08:38:16 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Big "B", update In-Reply-To: <199801070115.UAA16185@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: > There is an awesome B205 page at the University of Virginia, plus > a pretty cool B5000 page nearby. Here's the URL: > > http://www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/images/manuals Be warned - the pages contain some mighty large images! Skip using the classic modems for this one, guys, better have at least a T1. > It looks like they scanned in the original manuals for these beasties, > instead of just retyping them. Seeing the originals really adds to > the presentation, IMHO. And the B205 was _so_ cool - magnetic drum > as main memory! Those were the days. I still have no idea what the machine(s) is that I am inquiring about. I would really doubt it would be a super goodie like a B205 or B5000, but sometimes these oldies show up (like the IBM 7094 I recently missed, or the LINC that has just been found). William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 09:37:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: <199801071257.AA26198@world.std.com> Message-ID: ><4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet >< > >Look inside it may be a DEC PDP-11 series machine in differnt garb. > >Allison Ack, don't get my hopes up! Sounds like I'll have to arrange to pick this beast up sooner than expected :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 7 10:59:30 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <9800078842.AA884221478@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>>><4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet >>>>< >>> >>Look inside it may be a DEC PDP-11 series machine in differnt garb. >> >>Allison > >Ack, don't get my hopes up! Sounds like I'll have to arrange to pick this >beast up sooner than expected :^) Um. I'm not familiar with the Tek 6000 series at all, although the description "Workstation" makes me suspect that it's not a PDP. (That is purely a guess - I shall be happy to be proven wrong) In the late 1970s and early '80s Tek made the 4050 series. These were almost workstations - personal machines built around a vector storage CRT. The 4051 (earliest) seems to have used a 6800 micro as its CPU. This was replaced in the 4052 and 4054 by a bitslice machine which appeared to be a 25 MHz 6800-alike with some extra instructions. Fun machines. I have a 4052, BTW. Recent web searches, researching a talk I was giving on these machines, did indeed bring up practically nothing - all I discovered was that the Dutch computer museum also has a 4052, Hans Pufal's list mentions them, and that a company I had once met in a quite different context started life making software for these machines. Otherwise, no results from any search engine I tried. (The Tektronix site has narry a mention) So, when you do get hold of this, please tell us all about it. Philip. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 7 13:32:57 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Visicalc -- NOT -- I beg your pardon Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980107112837.4d075fa4@ricochet.net> At 08:39 PM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >The absolute >standout First Prize response was from Uncle Roger, with such >a bizzare comment that I am left speechless -- thanx Unc -- I Woohoo! I won! Yippee! What do I get? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From engine at chac.org Wed Jan 7 13:56:48 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980107115648.01119440@pop.batnet.com> At 22:58 1/6/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >And, contrary to what the media seems to think, continued used is actually >better than recycling something. (Which is why I drive a 38 year old car >rather than a brand new, *recyclable* one.... That isn't a car. It's an armored personnel carrier. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 09:25:59 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980107112837.4d075fa4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801072021.PAA19385@mail.cgocable.net> Hi all, BOY! I nearly bought the door stop for bad deal! As a prudent protection, I insisted on opening the old box, I found only stock configuration: 60mb hd, 2mb ram. Not 80mb and 4mb as previously stated by the store owner. Easy as pie to open it. :) And, to add to this, I wished that has late model using type 2 motherboard, this one uses type 1 motherboard, it's huge and loaded with PAL's, little ones, medium ones and rare large chipsets. I suspect the battery is dead because seller says it's configuration error "162" I know the basic codes pretty well. Which is preferable: Hock the offer to half of that $40 as agreed on to "whip" for being liar? I can't see him bec he's away for his doc appt til Friday. What I was lusting at owning a piece of a PS/2 machine for years but I would love to find a PS/2 motherboard -Axx series for a expensive song or with a 486 platform attached -oooh. If anyone could suggest or know of one that does have suitable hi performance older PS/2 alterative to this one would be nice. To anyone on this list, Wish list for model 70: -Type 3 motherboard -SCSI MCA controller adapter (I've a fast scsi II 540mb hd) -Ethernet card selectable BNC/10base2 TP. -P70 or P75. This nice P75 has SCSI as standard (cooler!) and known to be upgraded to either DX2 or DX4 (hurrah) with voltage adapter but it requires fancy footwork in soldering work either way. And I do like the plasma display due to my vision. I'm curious have anyone ever beaten the "16mb" limit on these series? Side note for other interests to other collectors while I was there, saw Zenith LP series with 286 daughterboard (can be upgrade to 386sx 16 and it has own copro socket). One Mac IIcx - what good about this one? I used to work on similar configuration of that model when I was at college doing homework. Comments please. Thanks and keep your aluminum platters spinning! Jason D. PS: When I was at a high school using their 30's also as tech assistent taking care bunch of large sites loaded with older models. PS/2 machines ranging from 25/30, 50, 55SX (perfect machine but would be even better machine if IBM soldered in an 25mhz cpu there), 50/50Z 70, and 80. That was about 3 years during summer beginning '89 or '90. This is where I started to like these PS/2 for it's good memories so I wished to have one as fun machine. :) From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 7 15:18:51 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Could someone please help this guy out? Message-ID: Can someone please help this man? Please send your replies to: COCarlson@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:13:00 EST From: COCarlson To: vcf@siconic.com Subject: help I need a command interpreter (command.com?) for a Kaypro XT. I had backed up the files and was then removing files in preparation for giving this computer to a grandchild. I accidentally deleted the system files. I have them backed up, but I can't get to the "restore" option until I can boot the computer. Actually, a Low density "system" diskette would be great. COCarlson@aol.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 7 15:56:39 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980106221930.006c1c9c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <13322397770.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Overclocking] I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... ------- From KFergason at aol.com Wed Jan 7 16:14:19 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write: << I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... >> A friend of mine once told me that they used to replace the 1mhz? crystal on Kim-1 boards with an 8mhz crystal. Man, that 6502 was real fast for a while. :-) From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 16:27:12 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <67dd18fc.34b40142@aol.com> How fast did it run? In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write: << [Overclocking] I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... ------- >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 16:26:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 6, 98 09:29:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/2602c6b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 16:35:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <199801070636.WAA15431@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jan 6, 98 10:36:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1785 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/c6b48c7d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 16:57:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: <9800078842.AA884221478@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 7, 98 04:59:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/1f5af15d/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 7 17:32:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801072332.AA19900@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801072341.SAA02361@mail.cgocable.net> Hi everyone! > > > I find this a good story. ;-) The fastest 8088 ever made was 10mhz if > you squint it may hit 12. As far as putting a 386 in a 8088 > socket...there is the matter of the 100 or so extra pins. Hehe, that would make it into dumbest jokes tv commerical. :) Allison, and everyone, there were 12mhz 8088 cpu plugged into little mini xt motherboards. And crappy quality 2 layer to boot too. :( I prefer 4 or more layers. Jason D. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 7 17:58:14 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <67dd18fc.34b40142@aol.com> Message-ID: <13322419902.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [How fast did it run?] It DIDN'T! :) ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 7 18:02:46 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801072332.AA19900@world.std.com> Message-ID: <13322420727.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I didn't put the 386 in the XT socket. I just pulled the clock xtal from the 386 and put in in the XT. It wasn't a real IBM PC, it was a clone. ------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 7 18:30:23 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <79eb2727.34b41e20@aol.com> uh, right! and would you mind telling the audience how you crammed a square 386 chip into the xt's dip socket??? In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write: << [Overclocking] I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... ------- >> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 7 18:22:21 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <70549624.34b41c40@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-07 15:26:19 EST, you write: << One Mac IIcx - what good about this one? I used to work on similar configuration of that model when I was at college doing homework. Comments please. >> I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have not been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card which is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for it, but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the cx is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which is 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a special dongle. RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i bought from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg, 200 400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own. david. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 7 20:44:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: References: <199801070636.WAA15431@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980107204402.4777cf22@intellistar.net> > >> More vague memories: not all HP-IB discs talk CS/80. There was also >> a "subset" or "simple" protocol, SS/80. Was that "Amigo"? I can't > Yes, I'm certain that it was. I have to get my references out and send to you Tony. >I think so. It's mentioned in passing in the HP150 techref (which I have) >with no real details... > >> remember. I think it is the protocol used by the 91xx discs, and >> those are what the Integral seems to recognize. Right again. > >Indeed. It's what a lot of smaller HP's seem to use. Does anyone know if >it is a 'subset' of CS/80 or something entirely different? SS//80 is a suset of CS/80. I think Amiga was an early version. Again, I must check my references to be sure. I will do that tomorrow. > >> >> -Frank McConnell >> >> > >-tony > > Joe From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 18:47:47 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <5caeaa37.34b42234@aol.com> I like the IIcis. They're cute little things. Pretty fast, too. The only problem, and I'm wondering if anyone could help me, is this. My experience with them was in a Macintosh Lab at a school. They have been used there for ~7 years. They have two problems. One is that the monitors power up intermittently, probably due to the transformer. Ideas? The other is the disk drives. They were all blown out with compressed air, but still didn't start working correctly. Ideas? > a better deal would be the IIci model which is > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > special dongle. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 7 19:10:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801080110.AA09628@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980107210906.46b7b5fa@intellistar.net> was: Re: I don't believe this **** SHOULD BE First Liar doesn't have a chance! At 06:32 PM 1/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >I find this a good story. ;-) The fastest 8088 ever made was 10mhz if >you squint it may hit 12. As far as putting a 386 in a 8088 >socket...there is the matter of the 100 or so extra pins. > >Oh, if the 25 mhz clock was input to the 8284A then the cpu clock would >be 8.333mhz... almost believable save for the rest of the logic on the xt >board would not generally run that fast without adding waitstates. > >Allison > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 14:20:41 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <70549624.34b41c40@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801080116.UAA24786@mail.cgocable.net> Hi! > I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have not > been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card which > is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for it, > but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the cx > is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which is > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > special dongle. I noticed after I surfed the net, and I do remember it had no video card. BUMMER! If it was IIci, I would grab it. > RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i bought > from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg, 200 > 400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength > machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own. David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what about this? :) My book does not list this Model 77. Jason D. > david. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 14:20:41 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] In-Reply-To: <5caeaa37.34b42234@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801080116.UAA24791@mail.cgocable.net> Hi! Snip! Problems at "lab"? This is very labour heavy work and expensive if you're managing them at that lab. Pull the floppy drives, take the ejector framework with floppy guides, clean them free of gunk and oil lightly with very heavy weight oil, oil lightly on that ejector motor. Clean the heads with alcohol, brush out the gut of the floppy, clean the seating surface where the matal part of floppy rests on it and floppy guides, posts, dirt/grime get carried to there by those fingers. Monitors, have them serviced by monitor depot and have capacitors changed out, soldering work and I would personally prefer to rebuild those power supplies out of these IIci's. Capacitors are cheap, about 10 to 20 dollars for each PSU. About the same for monitors. This will help lot. Otherwise, replace them with newer Mac clones. Cheaper in long run and less headache especially if they're at school lab still used? Also these clones uses regular 15pin monitors that was used for PC's. Sorry if you meant that you gotten some IIci's from there? > > a better deal would be the IIci model which is > > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > > special dongle. I agree. I just finished looking at the info as provided by apple's site. So I will leave this IIcx alone. I thought of putting linux on that when linux version get to full version release for that 68k type. Jason D. From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Wed Jan 7 19:50:40 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Anyone help this fellow? Message-ID: <34bc30a0.1296854818@mail.wizards.net> Found on Usenet. Please respond directly to him if you can help. -=-=- -=-=- Path: Supernews70!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: Dale Toney Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 Subject: Looking for a PDP-11 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:07:10 -0500 Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <34B3E06E.2120EDF9@blueridge.net> Reply-To: dale@blueridge.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 15767@205.152.121.8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Xref: Supernews70 vmsnet.pdp-11:9088 Hi, I am in North Carolina and looking for a used pdp-11 to buy. I broke my teeth in on pdp-11's and vax/vms, and would like to find one to tinker with. Any help in locating one would be appreciated. thanks, -- Dale mailto:dale@blueridge.net -=-=- -=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin2 {at} wiz d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 19:44:30 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <2f08bbc6.34b42f81@aol.com> Well, we have 10 IIcis, 10 Powermac 5400/180s (slow as molasses) 1 clone, 2 quadras. They are all used, the IIcis are limited in usefullness, because of the lack of FDD functionality In a message dated 98-01-07 20:18:49 EST, you write: << This will help lot. Otherwise, replace them with newer Mac clones. Cheaper in long run and less headache especially if they're at school lab still used? Also these clones uses regular 15pin monitors that was used for PC's. >> From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 19:51:36 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: References: <9800078842.AA884221478@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 7, 98 04:59:30 pm Message-ID: >I've seen a few Tektronix workstations, and they seem to be based (in >general) on 68k CPUs, often the 68020. It took some _SERIOUS_ manipulating of the web engines today during lunch, but I finally found something out. It seems there were three distinct 'families' running Tektronix UTek (UNIX). The first, which it sounds like I'll be getting, had a rather obscure processor I've heard of before, something like a '32k'. The second family is what you're talking about, and the third used the 88k processors (about 1989), and was supposed to be quite nice. Can't wait to get it, hopefully it's got some doc's, because there is nothing on the net. Only one "Collection" web page mentions anything close. Apparently he spent part of his lunch checking out my web page, because I got a message he sent from work offering me an IBM XT and a ancient Compaq. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 20:00:46 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Updated: Update: I don't believe... In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Rat's turns out she apparently isn't a dealer, and doesn't have any mini's or main's :^( Sounds like she's interested in getting one though. Somehow I doubt she's interested in preserving it, more likely realizes it will fetch a higher price with the scrap dealers >:^( What a waste of my time that's been, sometimes I think I'm too nice for my own good. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 19:56:06 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980107115648.01119440@pop.batnet.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >At 22:58 1/6/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >>And, contrary to what the media seems to think, continued used is actually >>better than recycling something. (Which is why I drive a 38 year old car >>rather than a brand new, *recyclable* one.... > >That isn't a car. It's an armored personnel carrier. > >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org Yeh, but those old cars, or in my case, old Pickups can hold a lot more computers than the new ones :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wpe at interserv.com Wed Jan 7 20:14:20 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** References: <3.0.32.19980106221930.006c1c9c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34B4367B.C669DB8A@interserv.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > At 03:57 PM 1/6/98 +0300, you wrote: > > >586 compatible processor for 486/DX4 motherboards that works at 133MHz. > >Those go for around $500. > > I had one of those. Had it overclocked to 160mhz, beat the pants of a P100. > I think I paid $150 for the board and chip about a year and a half ago. I > wonder what that'll look like next to the systems 10 years from now? > > -John Higginbotham- > -limbo.netpath.net- Hmmmm... I bought a Cyrix 586 processor, plus motherboard (133 Mhz) 'bout a year and a half ago, and paid US 125$ at a computer show in Marlboro Ma. It's what I currently am using... Sorry this is kinda' off topic.... Will From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 15:24:58 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] In-Reply-To: <2f08bbc6.34b42f81@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801080220.VAA10288@mail.cgocable.net> > Well, we have 10 IIcis, 10 Powermac 5400/180s (slow as molasses) 1 clone, 2 > quadras. They are all used, the IIcis are limited in usefullness, because of > the lack of FDD functionality Hi Zeus334, What exactly is the problem with your old IIci's especially this FDD? R/W problems or eject problems? etc? Oh, does my suggestions were helpful so far? Those old 1.44 drives are HIGH ticket because of it's demand for older machines and Apple have a horrible policy. Reason for this high price and hard to find spare ones: 1. Apple grants authoriztion to repair depots and tells them to always send broken stuff no matter what and they get discount on other available replacement parts. For broken parts their policy is grind 'em up. And ratio between apples and PC's are about 1:10. So, combined with this, rare unwanted parts and junk, demand from remaining users who still use theirs drive prices up. 2. so few places operate unauthorized reseller or repairs for apples. I was scared stiff when I found 1.44 drives for older ones cost over 100 each even it's used! What do you think of one mac clone you have in your lab? Jason D. > In a message dated 98-01-07 20:18:49 EST, you write: > > << This will help lot. Otherwise, replace them with newer Mac clones. > Cheaper in long run and less headache especially if they're at > school lab still used? Also these clones uses regular 15pin monitors > that was used for PC's. > >> > > From william at ans.net Wed Jan 7 20:32:52 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Updated: Update: I don't believe... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Rat's turns out she apparently isn't a dealer, and doesn't have any mini's > or main's :^( Sounds like she's interested in getting one though. Somehow > I doubt she's interested in preserving it, more likely realizes it will > fetch a higher price with the scrap dealers >:^( It might be a good idea to keep her business in the back of your mind, and perhaps bother her every so often (after all, she bothered you). If she ever gets any 20+ year old mainframes, I think a few of us would probably give her scrap value for it (a small S/360 is worth several hundred dollars, and it would be immediate cash - no labor to rip it apart!). Speaking of mainframes, I might have a pair of eyes to check out the Burroughs stuff in a week or so! William Donzelli william@ans.net From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jan 6 16:22:22 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this H Message-ID: <199801080300.TAA24808@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Qedit > is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS. Yeah, but they want something like $90 for it! I found another, that's free (even has spell check). Will send to anyone on request. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jan 6 16:15:51 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <199801080300.TAA02286@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > > MFM (early 80's?) > > Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. > > > RLL (late 80's?) > > I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is different. RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example. Actually, some (if not all) IDE's use variations of RLL encoding. From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Wed Jan 7 21:29:07 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980108142907.007b25d0@isd.canberra.edu.au> At 17:15 6/01/98 -0500, PG Manney wrote: >> > MFM (early 80's?) >> >> Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. >> >> > RLL (late 80's?) >> >> I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) > >Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is >different. > >RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards >temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example. The problem, however, as I understand it, wasn't the ST-506/412 interface itself, it was the fact that most of the drives that used this interface used stepper motors to move the R/W heads. The high-end voice-coil drives that used the ST-506/412 interface were *far* more reliable, and usually didn't have any problems using RLL encoding. Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| |Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | | University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| | scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 17:01:43 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980108142907.007b25d0@isd.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <199801080357.WAA02270@mail.cgocable.net> > At 17:15 6/01/98 -0500, PG Manney wrote: > > >> > MFM (early 80's?) > >> > >> Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. > >> > >> > RLL (late 80's?) > >> > >> I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) > > > >Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is > >different. > > > >RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards > >temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example. > > The problem, however, as I understand it, wasn't the ST-506/412 interface > itself, it was the fact that most of the drives that used this interface > used stepper motors to move the R/W heads. The high-end voice-coil drives > that used the > ST-506/412 interface were *far* more reliable, and usually didn't have any > problems using RLL encoding. Based on my experience... 95% true, but using RLL on stepper is fine but the main problem was when the maker produced drives to work with RLL used faster stepper design (makers tends to pack with lastest on next generation and leave the older alone instead of improving it more to pack more info instead of increassing performance which is perferable.) and that also include fast stepper type seeking on MFM drives as well. That's where you see the trouble. Noisy stepper ones tends to wear out than those ones that does quietly and slowly. That is why the slow quiet stepping drives like ST225's lasted so long that platter wore more smoother and got stuck or lasted longer anyway! :) Voice coil is best way to up the performance and pack more info. I can't attach "reliablity" to anything, only maker can do to assure this requires careful design and choosing right ideas and applications, making sure it's not cut on the corners and careful QC in production yields reliablity. Does not need cost like that just careful job and do the job right once. Jason D. > > Regards, > > | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| > |Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | > | University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| > | scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | > > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 22:11:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! Functionally are they any different from a standard 64? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From adam at merlin.net.au Tue Jan 6 22:20:01 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <199801080420.OAA02158@arthur.merlin.net.au> >I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see >one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few >months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 >or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! I'm assuming you mean the different case design - over here (South Australia) they seem to be as common as the old breadbox sort, but I suspect that in numbers they are slightly less than the older designs. I have three of them, and I only wanted the one. As far as I know there are no functional changes, although Commodore had a history of working out ways to make systems cheaper, so there may be a difference internally. I did find one old C64 in a third-party case which looked very much like the C64c, though. Interestingly enough it was made here - I would have picked it up, but I shy away from collecting computers based on the different cases, as there are too many to collect just based on the different systems themselves, and space is limited. Adam. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 7 23:10:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS References: Message-ID: <34B45FB8.A1B0669@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I've gotten back to looking into getting the my VAXstation up and running. > > This has gotten me to thinking, how many MIPS is a VUP? > > What's a MIPS, or more particularly, what's an 'Instruction'. > > AFAIK, the VUP was defined by the VAX 11/780 being exactly 1 VUP. Now, > the 11/780 executed about 0.5 million (VAX) instructions per second, but > I've heard it said that because the VAX instruction set was so CISC, a > VAX instruction was worth 2 of anybody elses ;-), so 1 VUP ~= 1 MIPS. With the current battle between RISC and CISC, MIPS now really is "Meaningless Information Provided by Salesman". Technically, by the current philosophy, an 8080 is a CISC processor. Go figure. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jan 7 21:43:28 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <01bd1be7$95288d20$LocalHost@hotze> Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. It's a company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model 55SX as $249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could probably say that you collect classics and that that price is way out of whack, but that might not work.... Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 4:18 AM Subject: Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Hi! > I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have not > been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card which > is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for it, > but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the cx > is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which is > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > special dongle. I noticed after I surfed the net, and I do remember it had no video card. BUMMER! If it was IIci, I would grab it. > RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i bought > from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg, 200 > 400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength > machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own. David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what about this? :) My book does not list this Model 77. Jason D. > david. From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Thu Jan 8 03:59:31 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <01bd1c1c$1d68a060$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. It's a >company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is >http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model 55SX as >$249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could probably say that you >collect classics and that that price is way out of whack, but that might not >work.... >Tim D. Hotze I suspect that here in Sydney, Australia the price of PS/2's is about to tumble to insignificance. It seems a lot of corporations bought whole networks of them in the early 90's and they are at the end of their usefulness when they move away from DOS/Win3.1 I have recently seen model 70 boxes advertised for $A30 and actually acquired a model 76 box for $A70, with 8Mb and 200Mb SCSI. (thats about $US20 and $US45) From cgregory at lrbcg.com Thu Jan 8 06:14:51 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <01bd1c2f$055466e0$c627a2ce@cliffgre> I have them all, i.e., 64, 64C, and a 64 in a 64C look alike case. Although not as common as the classic 64, the 64C is not at all rare. I found a complete one with a matching 1541C drive at a thrift the other day for $5. Among the Commodore community the consensus is that although functionally the same, some of the chips in the 64C had been upgraded (if I remember correctly, specificly the sound chips among others), and it is therefore more desirable than the standard 64. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 1:36 AM Subject: Re: C-64c, How common? > >Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1] by LRBCG.COM with smtp > id ABCEAFBJ ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:36:04 -0500 >Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id VAA13060; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:23 -0800 >Received: from mx5.u.washington.edu (mx5.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.6]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id VAA41218 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:20 -0800 >Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) > by mx5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id VAA05257 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:19 -0800 >Received: from navix.net (xyp99p14.ltec.net [205.242.158.24]) > by iac12.navix.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27937 > for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:20:40 -0600 >Message-Id: <33EC0CF9.CA43793D@navix.net> >Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:23:54 -0700 >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Cord Coslor >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Re: C-64c, How common? >References: <199801080420.OAA02158@arthur.merlin.net.au> >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >I have a C64c, although I haven't found them to be very common. This unit may >be for sell as well if anyone is looking for one. Also, I too found a C64 in a >third party case that looked just like the c-64... and it also was made in >Australia. I can get this for anyone that might want this unit as well. Let me >know. > >CORD COSLOR > >adam@merlin.net.au wrote: > >> >I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see >> >one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few >> >months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 >> >or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! >> >> I'm assuming you mean the different case design - over here (South >> Australia) they seem to be as common as the old breadbox sort, but I >> suspect that in numbers they are slightly less than the older designs. I >> have three of them, and I only wanted the one. As far as I know there are >> no functional changes, although Commodore had a history of working out >> ways to make systems cheaper, so there may be a difference internally. >> >> I did find one old C64 in a third-party case which looked very much like >> the C64c, though. Interestingly enough it was made here - I would have >> picked it up, but I shy away from collecting computers based on the >> different cases, as there are too many to collect just based on the >> different systems themselves, and space is limited. >> >> Adam. > > > > From scottk5 at ibm.net Thu Jan 8 09:13:23 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <199801081319.NAA20782@out2.ibm.net> One of the best sources for used parts for PS/2's I've found is Skip Paret in Florida. (skip@bcp.mhs.compuserve.com) His company is Business Computer Products: phone: (voice) 904-760-9300 (fax). Also since I collect PS/2's I have found the newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware to be an excellent source of parts and info. There you will also find that amazing German, Peter Wendt, quite possibly the world's greatest living authority on PS/2's! And there is also quite a stash of them downstairs, mostly Model 25's, 30's. 55's, 50Z's, 70's, and 80's. A lot of the auxiliary parts from model 80's will work on the 70's. so if there is something in particular you need, please let me know. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net On 1998-01-08 Tim said: >Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. >It's a company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is >http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model >55SX as $249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could >probably say that you collect classics and that that price is way >out of whack, but that might not work.... >Tim D. Hotze Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jan 8 07:37:34 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <79eb2727.34b41e20@aol.com> Message-ID: <13322569056.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I did this with the clock chip, not the CPU. The CPU wouldn't have fit! ------- From rcini at email.msn.com Thu Jan 8 07:52:59 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? Message-ID: <0e1b44654130818UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> I know that this is a little off-topic, but here it goes. I'm reading the book "The Soul of a New Machine", a book about the development of DG's Eclipse minicomputers (great book, BTW). In there, they talk about a "microcoder," one who is responsible for developing the microcode for the processor. Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded ROM for the instruction fetch unit of the microprocessor. Since I haven't been formally schooled in computer science or microprocessor design, I'd like to understand (in 500 words or less ) how microcode works, i.e., how is it implemented and how does the microprocessor access it. I know that this is probably a topic that is worthy of volumes of paper, but the Reader's Digest version will do! Thanks. Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 07:57:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS Message-ID: <199801081357.AA25900@world.std.com> <95% true, but using RLL on stepper is fine but the main problem was The Baltimore County Public Schools have 100's of old (286 & earlier) PC that need a disposal outlet. We are looking for companies that buy old machines for resale in third-world countries. Any info that you have that will help us to identifiy companies in this business will be greatly appreciated. Larry Mathison (410) 887-7838, LMATHISON@BCPS.ORG. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 08:59:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? Message-ID: <199801081459.AA21545@world.std.com> < Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded RO ) how microcode works, i.e., how is i It would be interesting to attempt to graph the MIPS/VUP/MIPS/Whetstones/etc. of ancient and contemporary computers, using some approximation of comparable units. It would be fun to recognize that, say, one of my old computers was just as fast as an IBM AT, but was available five years before. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 8 09:11:55 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale January 10 and 11, 733 SE 9th Ave. (Upstairs), Portland, OR 97214 with : "Chieftan S50, S100, Morrow, Altos, Nec, XORI, Kaypro, Xerox, Mindset, OSM Zeus, DEC computers, 11/73, 11/44, Vax 11/730, HSC50, RA60, TU 81 Plus, RA 81s, 486 & 386 PCs" etc. and lots more radio / TV / electronics, see for more info. - John From Bill_von_Hagen at transarc.com Thu Jan 8 09:12:10 1998 From: Bill_von_Hagen at transarc.com (Bill_von_Hagen@transarc.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix Workstations Message-ID: Tektronix made a number of interesting UN*X workstations (their flavor was called UTek) in the early/mid eighties, finally hanging it up around 1990 after releasing a Motorola 88K-based machine called the XD88 series. Earlier Tek workstations were the Magnolia, the 4XXX series, the 613X series, and the 6205. The 6205 and 6130 were based on the National Semiconductor 32032 processor - the 6130 was a desk-top that actually made it to market. The 6205 was a floor-standing "tower" version that was faster and more expandable, but which never sriously made it to the commercial market, as far as I know. The 43XX and 44XX boxes were very cool, too - these ran UTek or Smalltalk. As with all Tek products, all of these systems had fantastic graphics for their time. I have various of these machines (6205, 6132, etc.). I can probably copy some docs for you if you'd like. Let me know. Bill The following is some info about these that I collected from someone who worked at Tektronix during the time: The Magnolia was a proof-of-concept design, built in small quantities for internal use only. It had two 68000 processors, one for general use, and one for display only. It was a floor-standing cube about 18" per side. I believe it ran BSD Unix and used VME cards. My guess is there were some 20-50 built. My understanding is that the design was not easily "productized," meaning EL approval, inexpensive, etc. It had some custom hybrid ICs in it that apparently cost a mint to make. The Magnolia people and the 6000-line people were at war over processors and OS's. The 6000 line eventually lost -- the Magnolia people eventually produced the 4000-line, which were based on Motorola processors and an awful UNIX clone called Uniflex. Once the 6000-line died, it became politically possible to port UTek to the 4000-line boxes, and their names changed. Here's a quick run-down (somewhat chronological): Magnolia -- Tek-internal-only, integrated bitmap display, dual 68000, BSD Unix, VME?. 6205 -- only a few sold, Futurebus, NS32032, integrated display subsystem never really worked. 6130 -- NS32032 desk-top, not expandable, integrated display subsystem never really worked terribly well, usually used with a serial console. 4404 -- 68000, all-in-one with integrated 15" monochrome display, Uniflex OS. 4406 -- 68202, all-in-one with integrated 19", 4-bit gray display, Uniflex OS. Extremely sharp, but short-lived, internally produced CRT -- I'd be amazed if any of these are still working. The displays regulary started getting dim about a month after the warranty expired. 4407 -- same as 4406, but with a Hitachi color monitor. 4404+ -- internal-only, the 4404 with a 68010 daughtercard and MMU so it can run UTek. 4315 -- 4404 package with a 68020 processor, UTek. 4316 -- 4406 with minor changes, running UTek. Same dismal CRT. 4317 -- 4407 with minor changes, running UTek. It's been a while, some of these numbers might be off by a digit or so... From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 8 09:37:41 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801080300.TAA02286@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 6, 98 05:15:51 pm Message-ID: <9801081537.AA14455@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980108/1cf1fa0a/attachment.ksh From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 09:08:02 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199801081545.JAA06950@onyx.southwind.net> > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:51:36 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tektronix 6132 workstations > >I've seen a few Tektronix workstations, and they seem to be based (in > >general) on 68k CPUs, often the 68020. > > It took some _SERIOUS_ manipulating of the web engines today during lunch, > but I finally found something out. > > It seems there were three distinct 'families' running Tektronix UTek > (UNIX). The first, which it sounds like I'll be getting, had a rather > obscure processor I've heard of before, something like a '32k'. The second ^^^^^ Do you mean a National Semi 32000 class cpu? Kewl. Boy, those were hot, hot, hot when they hit the market in the early 80's. National did everything right on this one: Full object code compatibility between the 8,16 and 32 bit versions of the device; truly orthogonal instruction set, and so on. Mondo cool. It also was THE FIRST true 32-bit cpu on the market (according to an EDN magazine article). Did I say National did everything right? Yes. Well, depends on how you look at it. You couldn't run dos or CP/M on it. This, I suppose, was it's fatal 'flaw' (although I am of the opinion that that such compatibility would be a major DEFECT, but never mind). That and National didn't market the device very well, although it was used in alot of embedded applications. I wonder how much further it would have gone, had the free Unices we have today been available back then . . . . Zane, I have the NS-32000 programmers guide somewhere in my library if you're interested. Jeff From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 8 10:35:39 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-07 20:19:54 EST, you write: << David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what about this? :) My book does not list this Model 77. >> as far as the ps2 models i own go, my brother gave me the two model 30s. the place where he used to work at had round filed them, so he rescued them for me. the 8086 model was complete with a 4869 floppy drive and 8503 monitor! works great and had data on it dated up to 1991. the model 77 is a premium class ps2 machine announed in 1993 or 1994 i think so doesnt really apply to discussion here although it has mca architecture with is 10 years old. mine is a 9577-ouf which is a 486sx 33. full scsi, 2.88 floppy. 2-400 meg scsi drives and 16 meg which is max i think. i found a mca scsi adaptor at a radio rally for $1. tests ok, but its not a caching controller. this ps2 could support as many scsi drives as there are drive letters to support them, btw. david From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 10:43:17 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <199801081643.AA04475@world.std.com> From: Kimberley Weathers Subject: IBM Magnetic cards I work at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, in their archives. I found these cards are shaped like a punch card, but look like a floppy diskette without the cover. They're from about 1976, and I can't find anyone, not even at IBM, to read them. Any ideas? I know that after all this they may not even work, but it's worth a try, because this looks like important info. Any suggestions? Thank you, Kimberley Weathers kweather@bcm.tmc.edu __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jan 8 10:58:25 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? Message-ID: <01IS4OR4G6IQ9BVO4V@cc.usu.edu> > Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded ROM >for the instruction fetch unit of the microprocessor. Since I haven't been >formally schooled in computer science or microprocessor design, I'd like to >understand (in 500 words or less ) how microcode works, i.e., how is it >implemented and how does the microprocessor access it. The problem is that doing it right takes a picture... A computer is built from (among other things) a whole grundle of state machines. A state machine is a circuit that, at each clock cycle, uses some number of inputs and its current state and uses them to generate some number of outputs. The current state is a set of outputs that are fed back into the machine; that is, they are outputs that become inputs to the "next state generator", the logic which figures out what the outputs should be at the next clock. The next state generator is a complex piece of logic, especially for a machine with a lot of states; the next state generator for a state machine with, say, 256 states has 8 inputs just for the state variables! Designing the next state generator for a state machine as complex as the control unit of a CPU is very difficult and error-prone. Microcode is simply a technique which replaces the logic of the next state generator with a ROM. The inputs (including the current state) are fed into the address of the ROM and the data from the ROM are taken to be the outputs for the next state. Instead of implementing the logic by tossing around gates, you implement the logic by building a lookup table in the microcode ROM. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jan 8 11:06:20 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <01IS4P5BY7Q09BVO4V@cc.usu.edu> ><32-bit cpu on the market (according to an EDN magazine article). > >Look at that one and then look at VAX... the similarity is very strong. I don't know; I didn't see it. To me, a processor architecture is hung off the register structure and how the registers are used. When I read the introductory chapters of the NS32 book, I got all excited, but when I actually waded through the description of the machine I felt let down. The thing about the VAX is that the entire machine is built around the general purpose register set. Things that are special in other architectures (immediate values, pushing and popping the stack) are simply side effects of everyday addressing modes on the VAX. You can pop things from the stack because you can pop them from any register; MOV R0,(R1)+ works just as well as MOV R0,(SP)+. Immediate values are fundamentally popping things from the PC: MOV R0,(PC)+. The NS32K required special address modes for these operations because SP and PC weren't general purpose registers. I'm also not impressed by folks who claim that a 68000 is a whole lot like a PDP-11 for the same reason... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From lfb107 at psu.edu Thu Jan 8 11:12:12 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <199801081715.MAA50244@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> At 11:23 PM 8/8/97 -0700, Cord Coslor wrote: >I have a C64c, although I haven't found them to be very common. This unit may >be for sell as well if anyone is looking for one. Also, I too found a C64 in a >third party case that looked just like the c-64... and it also was made in >Australia. I can get this for anyone that might want this unit as well. Let me >know. > >CORD COSLOR I have heard that there were about 1 million of these produced with about 3 different subtle kinds made. (Different LED's, new vs old style keyboards, etc.) Of course, compared to the 9+ million 64's produced I guess that means that 64c's are *relatively* uncommon. Les From william at ans.net Thu Jan 8 11:39:20 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS In-Reply-To: <199801081357.AA25900@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The > problem with RISC is that compilers have to work hard to use the full > capability of the cpu. This may have been the problem with early RISC machines, but not so much anymore. Today's compilers are far better than those just 10 years ago (believe it or not, a modern compiler, if given good code, can generate executables just about as nice as the average assembly programmer can), and most of the RISC machines are getting CISCy. > next. The 8088 also does this albeit weakly. With the RISC machines also > doing super pipining the number of clock cycles became less meaningful > and the "MIPS" did as well. Adding things like caches complicates this > more as a cache flush or processor lock can really tie things up for long > periods of time affecting performance. Or vector computation (Crays, big Cybers, VIS and MMX (lame vectors)). They really add problems in the MIPs arena. William Donzelli william@ans.net From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 12:10:56 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108100638.2a5ff33e@ricochet.net> At 03:25 PM 1/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >Which is preferable: Hock the offer to half of that $40 as agreed >on to "whip" for being liar? I can't see him bec he's away for his >doc appt til Friday. $40 imo is a pretty good price for a PS/2 70 lunchbox (if that's what it is). Even with 2/60. I've got 8/60 in mine, and it works okay. Doublespaced, iirc, with Win3.1 loaded. Memory is available, though not always cheap. I don't know much about the motherboard specifics though. >One Mac IIcx - what good about this one? The IIcx is a 68030 (I think!) but doesn't include the onboard video of the similar but slightly later IIci. It was introduced in 1989 at $4669 and discontinued in 1991 at $4699 (according to "The Mac Bathroom Reader".) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 8 12:11:32 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <01bd1c60$d9a131e0$LocalHost@hotze> The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools have MMX machines. -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence T. Mathison To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 5:40 PM Subject: OLD PC's >The Baltimore County Public Schools have 100's of old (286 & earlier) PC >that need a disposal outlet. We are looking for companies that buy old >machines for resale in third-world countries. Any info that you have >that will help us to identifiy companies in this business will be >greatly appreciated. Larry Mathison (410) 887-7838, >LMATHISON@BCPS.ORG. > > From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 8 12:28:51 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: OLD PC's In-Reply-To: <01bd1c60$d9a131e0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108132851.007e2b60@netpath.net> At 09:11 PM 1/8/98 +0300, you wrote: >The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools >have MMX machines. I think the inner city schools would have a better use for these machines, or maybe special afterschool programs, or even donating them to under priveledged kids locally. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From red at bears.org Thu Jan 8 12:51:12 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, John Foust wrote: > I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale I plan on going down from Seattle on Saturday morning. Anybody else going? ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 12:03:41 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: <199801081643.AA04475@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801081917.NAA01000@onyx.southwind.net> > > > The problem was it was late and only the slow ones with no second source. Yeah. The 32332 was a real ripper CPU, but by the time it was available, Intel already had a firm grip on the marketplace . . . > > The lack of OS support, lack of a perceived need for 32bits, late entry > into the market, poor marketing and the 808x and 68k being both well > embedded in the market were factors that could not be missed. Isn't it odd how the 'Need for Speed' wasn't such a make-or-break issue back then? Yeah, National was the new kid on the block, and the product didn't have the backing of important hardware and software manufacturers (as the PowerPC did, much later). Still, I remember there was a version of UNIX for it; and at least a few hacks bought/made an add-in cpu board to go into the PC (it used ms-dos as a disk/IO server). Those were the days . . . Jeff From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 12:16:24 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: FW: IBM Magnetic cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980108084127.0108c730@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <199801081918.NAA01025@onyx.southwind.net> > From: Kimberley Weathers > Subject: IBM Magnetic cards > > I work at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, in their archives. I > found these cards are shaped like a punch card, but look like a floppy > diskette without the cover. They're from about 1976, and I can't find > anyone, not even at IBM, to read them. Any ideas? I know that after all > this they may not even work, but it's worth a try, because this looks like > important info. Any suggestions? > > Thank you, > > Kimberley Weathers > kweather@bcm.tmc.edu > I remember these. There were two kinds of machines that I recall use this media. The first, I know little about; that's the IBM word processors based on the Selectric typewriter mechanism. These beasts were what looked like an IBM selectric with a THICK umbilical to a 2 1/2 foot high cabinet that sat next to your desk. These had a cardreader, that would move the card in and out as it read the tracks. The other one, I worked on for a awhile, was a similar word processor manufactured by Redactron Corp, of Yaphank NY (or NJ?). The 'Redactor' used these MAG cards at first, then changed to cassette tape. They were later bought out by Burroughs, in their abortive attempt to enter the word processor business. They were thoroughly clobbered by the likes of NBI and Lanier, who were both subsequently killed in the ensuing PeeCee 'revolution' (revulsion?). I haven't seen a mag card reader of any 'stripe' in many years. Sorry for the long (and largely irrelevent) reply. That's what happens when you revive a long-dead memory: It tends to assume a life of its own. Jeff From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 13:55:08 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> Message-ID: <199801082045.OAA08030@onyx.southwind.net> R. Stricklin wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, John Foust wrote: > > > I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale > > I plan on going down from Seattle on Saturday morning. Anybody else going? > > ok > -r > -- > r e d @ b e a r s . o r g > ============================= > [ urs longa | vita brevis ] > > Grrrrrrr! I would give a certain part of my anatomy to go to this one! But I'm stuck here in this technological wasteland of the midwest. There's a box there I would grab, sight unseen. Oh well. I am indeed envious. Jeff From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 18:23:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS In-Reply-To: <199801081357.AA25900@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 8, 98 08:57:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 977 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980109/f77d3254/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 18:52:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? In-Reply-To: <0e1b44654130818UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 8, 98 08:52:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5340 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980109/0e014d19/attachment.ksh From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Jan 8 18:47:00 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> I just picked up a RCA Ascii keyboard. Does anyone have the pinout for it's connector? --------------------------------------------- I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? From arco at sta.es Wed Jan 7 03:00:54 1998 From: arco at sta.es (arco) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV Arco Electronica S.A. es una empresa espa=F1ola dedicada a la Message-ID: automatizaci=F3n de procesos industriales. Desde hace varios a=F1os estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. = =20 Actualmente tenemos una delegaci=F3n en BRASIL, pero no tenemos informaci=F3n si ustedes disponen de servicio t=E9cnico en Brasil. Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, as=ED como los servicios t=E9cnic= os de Iberoam=E9rica. =20 Agradeciendo la atenci=F3n prestada: Jose Manuel Soria V=E1zquez ---------------------------------------------- Finds: Just before Christmas I found the following cassette software in ziplock bags with the manual: Extended Basic by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20 Resident Assembler by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20 Text Editor by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20 a terminal program (I forget the name) by Dynasty Computer for the= SMART-Alec. --------------------------------------------- I want to approach a company about getting permission to copy their manuals and system software to distribute to other collectors. I think that it would go smoother if I already had a contract drawn up before hand. A generic agreement. Does anyone have experience with this? Or are there any Lawyer/Collectors out there? I'm looking for real experience. If a document like this doesn't exist, it should. We need to do all can towards tracking down who owns the rights to the software that keeps our machines running and getting their permission to copy it for others. --------------------------------------------- Fun Fact: The PMC101 "MicroMate" CP/M 3.0 System disk comes with a utility called CONVERT which allows the user to configure any of the floppy drives attached to the system (up to 4) to read and write disks of a number of different CP/M formats. The disks must already be formated. This utility makes it easy to transfer files between these formats: COMPUTER SIDES DENSITY =20 PMC-101 2 Double =20 PMC-101 1 Double =20 Omikron 1 Single =20 Kaypro II 1 Double =20 Osborne 1 Single =20 Osborne 1 Double =20 HP-125 2 Double =20 Xerox 820 II 1 Single =20 Xerox 820 II 1 Double =20 Dec 1 Double =20 IBM PC (CP/M) 1 Double =20 Zenith Z-37 1 Double =20 MicroDecision 1 Double MicroDecision 2 Double InterSystems 2 Double InterSystems 1 Double Televideo 802 2 Double Cromemco 1 Single =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com =20 Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. =20 Sunnyvale,CA=20 Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery =20 http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 8 20:01:02 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Seeking info on a PA63 unit Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108180102.00723278@agora.rdrop.com> Ok, here's an odd one... In a recent stack of items that I picked up, I came across a chassis with a status indicator panel suggesting that it was some type of reader/punch controller, and an id tag reading "Model PA63". It is obviously a DEC unit, but I've never seen any information on such a thing that I can recall. A more or less DEC standard looking wire wrapped backplane, standard 19 inch chassis about 6 inchec tall, and three fans. No power supply, but a large cable off of the backplane that looks like it was intended to connect to an external supply. Status displays for reader and punch data and status, and a reader and punch 'unit select' display. I keep thinking that if it turns out to be interesting, I might want to restore it and install it on one of my systems. But, I'll need some info and a set of prints to make any headway. Anyone familiar with this beast? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:12:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180830.3c578d4a@ricochet.net> At 07:47 PM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote: >I like the IIcis. They're cute little things. Pretty fast, too. The only The IIci is probably my favorite classic mac (other than the portable, perhaps). Great case, compact and easy to work on. Built-in video too. >years. They have two problems. One is that the monitors power up >intermittently, probably due to the transformer. Ideas? The other is the disk The monitor is separate, kinda irrelevant to the CPU. If the monitor is bad, just get a new monitor. (they can, as someone mentioned, run a VGA monitor with the right adapter.) >drives. They were all blown out with compressed air, but still didn't start >working correctly. Ideas? I assume you mean the floppy drives. Again, they can be replaced, although mac floppy drives aren't cheap. Depending on your exact situation, you can often get away without a working floppy. (If you mean the hard drive, that's even easier; it's a standard 3.5" scsi drive.) The IIci can run a CD-ROM drive, connect to the internet, and do just about anything you'd like. Rachel's got 3 (I think) of them in her classroom, plus one at home (her first computer, now her niece's). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:12:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180834.3c574a92@ricochet.net> At 08:20 PM 1/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >I agree. I just finished looking at the info as provided by apple's >site. So I will leave this IIcx alone. I thought of putting linux >on that when linux version get to full version release for that 68k >type. A IIcx for C$25 isn't that bad, assuming it has a decent size hard drive (80mb+) and some ram (4mb+). If it comes with a keyboard and mouse as well, and/or video card, you're doing pretty good. I would definitely pick one up at that price for Rachel's classroom. (The IIci is a little nicer, but a IIcx is very acceptable.) Note, if anyone (especially in the SF bay area) comes across mac stuff cheap that they're not interested in (especially monitors!) I'm always looking to get more computers into her classroom. (In case I haven't mentioned her before, my girlfriend (Rachel) is a 1st grade teacher in Daly City. We've put 10 or 11 macs in her school (8 in her class) so far, mostly based on my scrounging (or buying) parts and refurbing them.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:12:55 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: HP3000 editor (was: Frank knows his stuff) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180844.3c57eacc@ricochet.net> At 05:22 PM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote: > Qedit >> is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS. > >Yeah, but they want something like $90 for it! I found another, that's free >(even has spell check). Will send to anyone on request. If Qedit for the HP3000 is only $90, you'd be well off to purchase it! Especially if you're planning on any kind of development. On the other hand, I believe there is a PC editor with the same name (unrelated and not as good.) (Best Windows editor I've seen is Programmer's File Editor -- $0, and the guy wouldn't take money when I wanted to send him some! This is off topic, email me for details.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:13:22 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: archiving history (was: Tektronix Workstations) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180914.42b74bf6@ricochet.net> At 10:12 AM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Tektronix made a number of interesting UN*X workstations (their flavor [...snip-o-rama...] >The following is some info about these that I collected from someone >who worked at Tektronix during the time: [...snipitty-doo-dah...] >The Magnolia was a proof-of-concept design, built in small quantities for [...snipola...] >Here's a quick run-down (somewhat chronological): [...schnippy...] This is the kind of info that I really believe should be archived on the web for all eternity. I don't own a tektronix ws now, so although interesting, it's not something I really want to clutter up my email folders with. However, I might just get one next week. In which case, I'd really want this info. But, I wouldn't want to bother Bill for it again (and again and again...). If it were on a web page somewhere, a search in Alta Vista (or whichever search engine one used) would turn it up. So, I would like to *really* encourage people who have this sort of info to put it on the web. Of course, it's all fine and dandy for me to say that (especially when I have yet to get *my* collection online!) when I know you all have more important things to do and more important stuff to fill your webspace with. So, I'll offer to host and html-ize any stuff like this anyone wants to send me. Just dump it (any kind of: history, folklore, specs, special commands, secret codes, easter eggs, power supply voltages, etc.) in an e-mail and send it to me at and I'll get it on-line. (It won't necessarily be beautiful, but it will be useable.) Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:13:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180925.51973182@ricochet.net> At 09:11 PM 1/8/98 +0300, you wrote: >The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools >have MMX machines. Perhaps, but is that: a) Schools for dependents of US citizens working for US companies in Bahrain, b) local schools in an wealthy country (i.e., the government is wealthy even if the citizenry isn't) c) only the schools located in the major cities? In the philippines, it ain't true. Heck, my girlfriend's sister-in-law's family doesn't even have a telephone. There is a company here in San Francisco that ships hundreds (if not thousands) of older PC's and such overseas *everyday*. They're huge, and it's really an amazing operation. And yes, they occassionally get some classic computers worth saving. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 8 20:16:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> Message-ID: >with : "Chieftan S50, S100, Morrow, Altos, Nec, XORI, Kaypro, Xerox, >Mindset, OSM Zeus, DEC computers, 11/73, 11/44, Vax 11/730, HSC50, >RA60, TU 81 Plus, RA 81s, 486 & 386 PCs" etc. and lots more Anyone got any idea on what they are going to want for this kind of stuff? I need some S-100 boards, and would absolutely love to get my hands on some DEC systems. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From pvhp at forte.com Thu Jan 8 20:17:56 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: YA UN*X for DEC MIPS Message-ID: <9801090217.AA10105@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: YA UN*X for DEC MIPS It seems there is/may-be yet another unix workalike for DEC MIPS machines. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:22:31 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Classic Macs mailing list? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108181821.57ff1fb2@ricochet.net> At 09:26 AM 12/1/97 -0600, you wrote: > I'm interested in the classic Macs mailing list (I have a Plus). >Where do I sign up? Okay, so I'm inefficient and disorganized... 8^) I was going through some old mail and realized I never forwarded the info about the classic macs list. So, here it is: ----------------------------------------- To subscribe to Classic Macs, send e-mail to . In the body of the message write subscribe classics You will be added within a day. _______________________________________________________ If you are new to the list, please take time to visit the Classic Macs archives. Many, many common questions have been asked already and you may find what you seek in previous posts. This will save the list members much time in not having to pore over frequently asked and answered questions many times. The Classic Macs Archives are found at: http://www.zws.com/classicmacs/ Thanks to Lewin A.R.W. Edwards for maintaining and hosting the archives. _______________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 8 20:22:42 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS References: <3.0.1.32.19980108090623.00b96a80@pc> Message-ID: <34B589F2.9F9BBAE3@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > > It would be interesting to attempt to graph the MIPS/VUP/MIPS/Whetstones/etc. > of ancient and contemporary computers, using some approximation of > comparable units. It would be fun to recognize that, say, one of > my old computers was just as fast as an IBM AT, but was available > five years before. Part of that was demonstrable _then_, albeit subjectively. Format a standard Tandon or whatever 20 MB disk from the bare oxide on an AT and on a TRS-80 Model 4. The results will surprise you. (With an XT the difference was much more ludicrous. I'm told the same applies with a Color Computer, but hooking up a hard drive is damned near the only thing I've never done with one. (The inflatable party doll Program Pak interface is _still_ in Beta test.) 8-)} -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Jan 8 20:21:43 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> References: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <34e888d6.338958636@hoser> On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:47:00 -0800, you wrote: > I just picked up a RCA Ascii keyboard. Does anyone have the pinout >for it's connector? Is it one of the little membrane keyboards with a metal enclosure and a DB-25 connector on the back? I've got a couple of those; I don't remember if I've got docs or not, but I opened one up and it didn't look too hard to figure out. >--------------------------------------------- >I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but >I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? >>From arco@sta.es Wed Jan 07 10:43:27 1998 >X-Sender: arco@sta.es >Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:00:54 +0100 >To: "Doug Coward" >From: arco >Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV > Arco Electronica S.A. es una empresa espa?ola dedicada a la >automatizaci?n de procesos industriales. > Desde hace varios a?os estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. > Actualmente tenemos una delegaci?n en BRASIL, pero no tenemos >informaci?n si ustedes disponen de servicio t?cnico en Brasil. > Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, as? como los servicios t?cnicos >de Iberoam?rica. > > Agradeciendo la atenci?n prestada: > Jose Manuel Soria V?zquez >---------------------------------------------- I ran this through Alta-Vista's online translator (at http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate), and this is what came out. Not sure why it translated "Alto" as "stop" in the body, but not the subject line. Anyway, it's readable. That translator has come in handy - it also does web pages. In English: Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV Arco Electronica S.A. is a Spanish company dedicated to the automatization of industrial processes. For several years we have been installing terminal of STOPS IV. At the moment we have a delegation in BRAZIL, but we do not have information if you have technical service in Brazil. We requested indicate to us if they have it, as well as the technical services of Ibero-America. Appreciating the lent attention: Jose Manuel Soria Va'zquez -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 20:26:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS Message-ID: <199801090226.AA12888@world.std.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: CherylGW Subject: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:26:09 EST Size: 4962 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980108/3f61cbfd/attachment.mht From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 8 21:02:38 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108210238.006bcb7c@pop3.concentric.net> I see them from time to time here in the TwinCities. I do not buy them anymore, I have 6. They have shape like the C128 and the same color and run all the old cartridges. At 08:11 PM 1/7/98 -0800, you wrote: >I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see >one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few >months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 >or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! > >Functionally are they any different from a standard 64? > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 8 22:28:57 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> Message-ID: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, will emerson wrote: > > From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 8 21:20:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: CoCo Software (was Re: Software Piracy [again] and ) References: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34B5977D.2B50D165@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >One does sell outdated software for (well, usually) a smaller than normal > >fee. Tandy. They still sell software that runs on the original CoCo1 like > >Mega-bug and the like on cassette and disk for as low as $2.50 or so. They > >still have a small amount of cartridge software for sale! > > Here is a stupid CoCo question, how does one go about buying this software > from them? I'm assuming the typical Tandy Sales drone will go, "Huh, nope, > we don't have any such product" (note this is just an assumption on my > part, I've been dealing with to many idiot computer salespeople lately). In every Radio Shack company store (I don't know about the remaining few franchise stores), there's a set of binders _on display_ for special order products, mostly electronics garbage.. One of them includes software for old computers, Color Computer, Tandy 6000, early semi-PC-compatibles, etc It surprised the hell out of me to find it, but it's in every store I've visited lately. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 20:46:26 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Geoworks Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA04019@mx5.u.washington.edu> Zeus334@aol.com, who are you? My mail bounced back. I have both Geoworks and Geos. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 20:50:02 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA27694@mx4.u.washington.edu> > I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see > one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few > months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 > or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! > > Functionally are they any different from a standard 64? No. I have 3 of 'em. (Nyaah Nyaah! :) Ya want one? manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 21:33:06 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: archiving history (was: Tektronix Workstations Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA27234@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > So, I'll offer to host and html-ize any stuff like this anyone wants to send > me. Just dump it (any kind of: history, folklore, specs, special commands, > secret codes, easter eggs, power supply voltages, etc.) in an e-mail and > send it to me at and I'll get it on-line. (It won't > necessarily be beautiful, but it will be useable.) Great idea. The manuals may survive, but the folklore that's batted about this -- and other discussion groups -- is as ephemeral as it is precious. My grandkids are (i hope) gonna want to know what it felt like to sit at a keyboard, to write a program, to swap out a drive... From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 21:15:37 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA27698@mx4.u.washington.edu> I have a couple of junk Model 30's if anyone... My vote goes to the Model 25 as the most horrid computer PC of all time. Unexpandable, impossible to work on. Ick! manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 21:26:34 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: FW: IBM Magnetic cards Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA05458@mx3.u.washington.edu> > I haven't seen a mag card reader of any 'stripe' in many years. Several HP calculators used 'em for awhile. The HP-41C had a motorized reader, while the -75 and (later) the 71B of fond memory used hand-pulled strips. I bought my 71 in '87, iirc. Hey -- I just realized -- it's a classic! Makes me feel OLD. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 8 22:01:43 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-08 22:43:53 EST, you write: << I have a couple of junk Model 30's if anyone... My vote goes to the Model 25 as the most horrid computer PC of all time. Unexpandable, impossible to work on. Ick! >> actually, i think its kind of neat in a strange way. all in one form factor, like a compact mac. in fact, the IBM Eduquests are built the same way. the only bad part is expandability and if the monitor or power supply dies, you're finished. david From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 22:28:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <199801090428.AA28598@world.std.com> < My vote goes to the Model 25 as the most horrid computer PC of all time < Unexpandable, impossible to work on. Ick! >> < References: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <34b5a974.453570@mail.swbell.net> On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:47:00 -0800, you said: >Fun Fact: >The PMC101 "MicroMate" CP/M 3.0 System disk comes with a >utility called CONVERT which allows the user to configure any >of the floppy drives attached to the system (up to 4) to read and >write disks of a number of different CP/M formats. The disks >must already be formated. This utility makes it easy to transfer >files between these formats: If I remember correctly, Kaypro CP/M 2.2 allows lots of "foreign" reads/writes/(?)formats(?) but the disks/docs are harder to get to than the computer... _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 23:00:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: linux Message-ID: <199801090500.AA19006@world.std.com> To quote the good doctor "it lives". Finally I've gotten linux (slakware V3) to install on the 386, I finally stripped the disk of the semifunctional version that wouldn't boot and installed it fresh and it seems to run properly. More importantly it boots properly on power up. Right now X-win is not installed as 8meg is all it's got. One annoying thing is the autoprobe for CDrom, it's slow. Generally the speed is good. What has me fully baffeled is there is now clue what I've done different since the last three times. Now the next task is getting SLIP or PPP going so that it can access the internet. Then I want to get x-windows and it's related tools going. I also have to get an IP stack going on the dosbox to share files. Any experts out there? Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 9 00:56:47 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: FW: IBM Magnetic cards In-Reply-To: <199801090341.TAA05458@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980109005647.4a1f565e@intellistar.net> At 10:26 PM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> I haven't seen a mag card reader of any 'stripe' in many years. > >Several HP calculators used 'em for awhile. The HP-41C had a motorized >reader, while the -75 and (later) the 71B of fond memory used hand-pulled >strips. I bought my 71 in '87, iirc. > >Hey -- I just realized -- it's a classic! Makes me feel OLD. > > Speaking of cards. I need some mag cards for my HP 9100. They're about 2 x 3 inches in size and where also used in several of HPs big desktop calculators. Does anyone have any of those that they're willing to part with? Joe From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 8 22:18:16 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <01bd1cb5$9c363b20$LocalHost@hotze> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 5:10 AM Subject: Re: OLD PC's >At 09:11 PM 1/8/98 +0300, you wrote: >>The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools >>have MMX machines. > >Perhaps, but is that: > >a) Schools for dependents of US citizens working for US > companies in Bahrain, No, there's only one of those. (It's a DoDDs school) They've got 286's in classrooms, 386's in science labs, 486's in 3 computer labs, and Pentiums in the library and a new computer lab. They're trying to replace the 486's, so that they move the 486's in the classrooms, but the new Pentiums will have to run Windows 3.1, as that's what they're doing now. >b) local schools in an wealthy country (i.e., the government > is wealthy even if the citizenry isn't) No, the government is relatively wealthy, but the local schools mostly have 386's and 486's. I haven't visited many, so don't bind me by that. >c) only the schools located in the major cities? Major cities? Here? (Ask Zane) ;-) >In the philippines, it ain't true. Heck, my girlfriend's sister-in-law's >family doesn't even have a telephone. Yep. But there are lots of immigrants from the Philippines here, but the thing is, I'd think taht they're better back home. I mean, here, they get paid around $150 a month for 12hrs a day, and 7 days a week. And to think that they call it third world... (should be eighth or so...) :-( >There is a company here in San Francisco that ships hundreds (if not >thousands) of older PC's and such overseas *everyday*. They're huge, and >it's really an amazing operation. And yes, they occassionally get some >classic computers worth saving. Yes, or, what they could do at the school is give them to student's who can't afford computers. WP 5.1 will run on a 286, you can get Windows 3.1 out of 'em, they'll run almost all DOS software. (Well, except for games, etc.) And, when finished with an early Epson dot-matrix, they make machines that are good for doing reports, PrintShop, etc. Tim D. Hotze From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Jan 8 23:05:32 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: SwTPC web page Message-ID: <199801090505.AAA21745@webern.cs.unc.edu> Well, it isn't impressive yet, but there isn't much point to keeping it hidden either. So, here's the URL for my beginnings of a web page for SwTPC - Soutwest Technical Products Corp: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/swtpc Hope you like it. Bill. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 8 22:51:19 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6130 Engineering Workstation In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980108181821.57ff1fb2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: In a word, I've got it. No documentation, yet. The gentleman that I got it from wasn't expecting me to pick it up until Saturday, but my plans got changed, so I called him up and arranged to pick it up tonite. He's going to try to find the Documentation and will get back with me, it turns out he's only a couple miles away, so it's no biggy. I'm told it's a 6132, but the nameplate say's 6130, so how knows? The main computer is about the size of a old PC, but turned sideways. It also has a very large expansion unit the size of some computers that apparently houses a second SCSI Hard Drive (although I'm doubtful there is a HD in it anymore), and what appears to be a QIC-150 (doubt it's that big) tape drive. There is a shielded SCSI cable like what's normally used inside a computer. It has one empty card slot, and a 1Mb card in another slot. There is also a terminal with it, a "Ann Arbor XL Series" that connects via a Serial line. Does anyone have any idea what kind of terminal this is? It's very wierd, it's the only ASCII terminal that I've seen which is a portrait-mode terminal! Is this some kind of VT-100 compatible or something? The only thing I've ever seen that even comes close is some of the old Macintosh monitors. It will probably take me a while to get it ready to power up. It looks like the first thing I'd better do is give it a VERY good cleaning. The terminal and keyboard are nice and clean. The computer is pretty dirty. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From starling at umr.edu Thu Jan 8 23:16:59 1998 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: linux In-Reply-To: <199801090500.AA19006@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 9, 98 00:00:25 am Message-ID: <199801090516.XAA18600@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I really hate to reply to the whole mailing list about this, but I have no e-mail address for Allison. (Grrr... if the mail server would leave intact the original headers or something...) Sorry for the off-topic message... :( > One annoying thing is the autoprobe for CDrom, it's > slow. Generally the speed is good. chmod 644 /etc/rc.d/rc.cdrom That should prevent it from probing for the CDROM, since you don't have one. > I also have to get an IP stack going on the dosbox to share files. Any > experts out there? I can answer a question or two on linux, but I'm no expert on DOS IP stacks. Here at school, we use the Clarkson University (CUTCP) package for DOS IP needs, but I don't think it has any server capabilities. But I'd be interested if you found a program that did such a thing in DOS. chris starling starling@umr.edu From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Thu Jan 8 23:27:38 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980108210238.006bcb7c@pop3.concentric.net> References: Message-ID: >I see them from time to time here in the TwinCities. I do not buy them >anymore, I have 6. They have shape like the C128 and the same color and >run all the old cartridges. OK, I don't know much about C64's or other Commodore machines(although I have had a chance to look at a C16, several C64's and a few C128's). From what you say, it sounds like the 64c is in the low-profile case(to me it looked like a shortened C128 case). Is this correct? I've seen several of those, and I think I saw a C64(might have been something else) that looked like those chunky wedge-shaped IBM keyboards, like they used with the DisplayWriter or older terminals. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 23:44:30 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108214005.3b574aa8@ricochet.net> At 01:51 PM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale > >I plan on going down from Seattle on Saturday morning. Anybody else going? I can't make it (a bit far from San Francisco), but I'd be happy provide you with a shopping list. 8^) (Actually, it's pretty simple: any portable computers smaller large-laptop-size or smaller, $10 or less. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 23:44:27 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108214000.3b574210@ricochet.net> At 01:28 PM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >I think the inner city schools would have a better use for these machines, >or maybe special afterschool programs, or even donating them to under >priveledged kids locally. a lot of local programs certainly have *need* for them, but they would probably see more *use* overseas. The problem with older (and certainly very viable and useful) equipment in this country is getting it into operation, maintaining it, and putting it to work with software other than what one buys at CompUSA. I'd be happy to discuss this further (I am somewhat involved in this sort of thing myself) but I think it best kept to private e-mail (or the various newsgroups/mailing lists about the subject.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 23:44:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: translating... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108214008.3b574702@ricochet.net> At 04:47 PM 1/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but >I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? I can't read spanish, but I can pass on this URL: which lets you enter either a bunch of text or a URL and it will translate it for you. Pretty neat, although far from perfect. Can at least get you an idea of what that german/spanish/french classic computer page is talking about. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 9 01:06:51 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS to microcode In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 9, 98 00:23:49 am Message-ID: <199801090706.CAA12812@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > Someone said: > take many clock cycles. RISC by definition is at most two clock cycles > to execute a given instruction. Generally RISC machines can perform Tony Duell then replied: > I'm not that well up in modern processor design, but I've never heard of > that definition. In fact the ARM becomes CISC by it, I think (?). Then Allison J Parent replied: > That was part of the mid 80s def, but by no means an exclusive item. There really isn't a single concensus as to what RISC really means, other than Reduced Instruction Set Computer (and CISC - Complex Instruction Set Computer) although there typically are conventions. The RISC concept came out of R&D by IBM (notably. I think Stanford was also doing research into this). They were studying the instructions used by compilers and noted that typical compilers only used the simpler instructions and addressing modes, since compilers then weren't sophisticated enough to use the more complex instructions (or it was harder to map the complex instructions into what the compiler was compiling). IBM reasoned that it would be better to make a CPU with only those instructions commonly used, with simple addressing modes. This would make the CPU easier to build and test. And a simpler design is easier to speed up. IBM produced the RS (I think - memory is going) line of computers which were the first commercial available system based upon the RISC ideal. Note that it didn't have some of the traits to later come out of RISC like pipelines or fixed length instructions. Later on, any complexity lost to instructions was later gained by pipelining, caching, branch prediction and other esoteric stuff. Tony: > Anyway, what's a clock cycle? The PERQ executes one microcycle per clock > input cycle _but_ there's a few dozen other timing signals that fly about > the CPU board that are produced by feeding the master clock into a delay > line and combining the outputs from the taps of said delay line. An > alternative design would have been to use a much faster master clock and > divide it down using counters/shift registers. Are you saying that (had > the microcycle == 1 instruction cycle) the first would have been RISC but > the second CISC, where the 2 machines would execute the same instruction > set at the same real speed. If so, the terms RISC and CISC are totally bogus. Well, most RISC computers are hardpressed to execute an instruction in a single clock cycle. For instance, a RISC CPU may take four cycles to execute a single instruction, say, fetch, decode, execution and store. But by using a pipeline, these four stages (for example) can be overlapped so that at any given cycle, there are four instructions in various parts of being executed. Like I said, the criteria of RISC and CISC are rather arbitrary, but the convention is that you have a simple regular instruction set and only one or two addressing modes (with most operations being between registers). Allison: > The ARM used more clocks but not many. The early defininition was simply > Reduced Instruction Set and raw speed to make up for it. A PDP-8 would > qualify in many respects as it has about the smallest useful instruction > set going. It's biggest feature is the lack of complexity that allowed > CPUs like the ARM and MIPS to be very fast as they were very simple > compared to say the 386, the result was the amount of silicon required > was less and production costs are lower. Some side effects of the smaller > die(fewer transistors) were improved testability, lower power and less > heat with attendant higher relibility. Most smaller RISC chips are 10s > of thousands of transistors compared to millions in most of the CISC > designs. Most people would consider the VAX to be the most CISCish of CPUs, but with 16 general purpose registers and a very regular instruction format (about the most regular format I've ever encountered, even including RISC) I would almost consider the VAX to be RISCish in nature (although some instructions like CRC might be a bit much 8-) I would give the Most CISCish Award to either the Intel 80286 or the Intel 432. The 80386 is byzantine, but they did (to an extent) regularize the instruction set. -spc (Likes VAX assembly ... ) From rws at ais.net Fri Jan 9 02:22:11 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: Since nobody else has translated this yet and posted it for the curious, this is what it says (give or take; I haven't used Spanish in a while): On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Doug Coward wrote: > I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but > I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? > From: arco > Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV > Arco Electronica S.A. es una empresa española dedicada a la > automatización de procesos industriales. > Desde hace varios años estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. > Actualmente tenemos una delegación en BRASIL, pero no tenemos > información si ustedes disponen de servicio técnico en Brasil. > Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, así como los servicios técnicos > de Iberoamérica. > > Agradeciendo la atención prestada: > Jose Manuel Soria Vázquez Arco Electronics Inc. is a Spanish company dedicated to the automation of industrial processes. For several years we have been installing ALTOS IV terminals. Actually we have a subsidiary in Brazil, but we do not have information on whether you arrange technical service in Brazil. We ask that you tell us if you have it, like the technical services in Spanish America. Thanking you for quick attention, Jose M. Soria V. (Feel free to correct my translation) Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Fri Jan 9 05:55:37 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Big "B", update References: Message-ID: <34B61038.5130@digiweb.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Does anyone on this list have any sort of data on Burroughs machines? I > would like to get some sort of summary on the different models before > taking any possible plunges into the "real big iron" world. Actually B had a quite reasonable naming strategy : B xyzz e.g B 4720 x was the architecture : 1 "minicomputer", bit addressable memory 2,3,4 COBOL oriented mainframe, decimal arithmetic 5,6,7 Mainframe large systems, stack based 48 bit words y was the generation usually starting at 5 going to 9, again the larger the number the more powerful the system zz was the model number In all cases the larger numbers indicate larger and more powerful systems. They also had the B700 B800 B900 series of minicomputers and the B80 and B90 micro computer series. This description is quite rough and ready, but the numbering was quite logical in its time. Hope this helps, once you get a system name I can provide more information. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Fri Jan 9 10:02:57 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: archiving history (was: Tektronix Workstations) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980108180914.42b74bf6@ricochet.net>; from Uncle Roger on Thu, Jan 08, 1998 at 08:13:22PM -0600 References: <1.5.4.16.19980108180914.42b74bf6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <19980109100257.37239@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu> On Thu, Jan 08, 1998 at 08:13:22PM -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: > This is the kind of info that I really believe should be archived on the web > for all eternity. It is being archived. I've found Kevan Heydon's archive of this mailing list to be quite a valuable resource - especially when I acquire something that I know has been covered before. The URL for the threaded HTML-ized version of this archive is http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/classiccmp/ There is also a text archive available from the classiccmp web (or ftp?) site. Be warned: the individual text files are several megabytes each. As far as eternity goes, I've copied the flat text archives to a "classic" computing CD-R for personal use, along with disk images and ROM dumps for some of the machines in my collection. It's not good enough for eternity, but I'm hoping for well over 10 years. -- Scott Ware NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource 303 East Chicago Avenue, Ward 8-264, Chicago, IL 60611 (312)503-0813 Finger for PGP public key From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 9 12:08:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] In-Reply-To: References: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980109120850.35776d48@intellistar.net> At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. > >=-) > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public service commisions not by the FCC. Joe > >On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, will emerson wrote: > >> >> > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Jan 9 12:33:55 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: SwTPC web page In-Reply-To: <199801090505.AAA21745@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: Bill, I like the page. You can see inside and outside shots of my 6800 at http://www.retrocomputing.com/micros/swtpc.html. In addition, I'm working on getting the SWTPC working again (I HAD it working darnit) after a couple chips went *poof*. My plan is to hang it off the back of a terminal server (which I ALSO HAD WORKING darnit) so people can come in and use it via telnet. Fortunately, I have the Motorola 6800 development system to use as a comparison system for buss signals etc while I'm fixing the SWTPC. Eric Chomko is sending me some schematics which should help me repair it. At any rate, it's really not bad and I'll make sure I put a link from my SWTPC page to your pages. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Well, it isn't impressive yet, but there isn't much point to keeping > it hidden either. So, here's the URL for my beginnings of a web page > for SwTPC - Soutwest Technical Products Corp: > > http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/swtpc > > Hope you like it. > > Bill. > From engine at chac.org Fri Jan 9 15:29:09 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Clock (off topic) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980109132909.01016d50@pop.batnet.com> Between Christmas and New Year's I was cleaning out my mother's house and found a Texas Instruments TI-71, complete with its docs and warranty card. This is a small, line-powered digital clock. Still works fine. What interests me here is that I recall hearing an unsupported contention, years ago, that this was the _first_ commodity digital clock that used seven-segment displays instead of flippers. Can anyone confirm or deny? Tony, you probably know this one. TIA, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 9 19:45:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980109194518.4e57ed1c@intellistar.net> Found this in a news-group. Joe My company needs the space and wants to give away an IBM System/36, immediately! We need it out of here ASAP. Runs great! You haul. Call Rick at 505-982-5573 or email: rogick@roadrunner.com The equipment is as follows: IBM System/36 Model 5360 IBM 4234 Dot Band Printer 6 IBM 3197 Color Workstations Motorola Codex 2205 Modem Dual Tape Backup by Fathom Technologies About 6 5250 Emulation Cards (Short Length) Everything works great! From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jan 9 18:44:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <19980110004439.5143.qmail@hotmail.com> >Received: from host (server@lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id PAA19170; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:49:56 -0800 >Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id PAA13830 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:49:34 -0800 >Received: from star1.intellistar.net (star1.intellistar.net [206.105.64.2]) > by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id PAA11635 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:49:32 -0800 >Received: from lizard ([206.105.68.14]) by star1.intellistar.net > (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-41809U2500L250S0) > with SMTP id AAA12 for ; > Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:49:26 -0500 >Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980109194518.4e57ed1c@intellistar.net> >Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 19:45:18 >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Joe >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Free IBM system 36 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >X-Sender: rigdonj@intellistar.net >X-Priority: 1 (Highest) >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >Found this in a news-group. > > Joe > >My company needs the space and wants to give away an IBM System/36, >immediately! We need it out of here ASAP. Runs great! You haul. Call Rick >at 505-982-5573 or email: rogick@roadrunner.com > >The equipment is as follows: > IBM System/36 Model 5360 > IBM 4234 Dot Band Printer > 6 IBM 3197 Color Workstations > Motorola Codex 2205 Modem > Dual Tape Backup by Fathom Technologies > About 6 5250 Emulation Cards (Short Length) >Everything works great! OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 9 18:51:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE" at Jan 8, 98 11:01:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980110/441f2526/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 9 20:32:40 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: <19980110004439.5143.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 9 21:35:20 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] References: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> <3.0.1.16.19980109120850.35776d48@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34B6EC78.A62DD2D6@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. > > > >=-) > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the > telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public > service commisions not by the FCC. Sorry to say, it _does_ affect us (though yes, it's off-topic, but most of us communicate through Internet links). The FedGov has a couple of taxes on local phone bills for many years. And unless you've forgotten the CDA, they want control over the Net, with special tools to decode any messages someone wants private. Classic computers will not work with those standards, of course. Yes, even if you aren't libertarian. (I know damned well that there are one or two socialists on this list), we can be affected -- we can be forbidden to communicate. And there are at _least_ two attempts in progress to "reword" the CDA so that it takes away just as much freedom but doesn't hit the federal judicial hot buttons. Seems outrageous? The First Amendment covers everything. Presently. transmitting Nobel's (the guy who funded the Prize) formula for explosives is being watched by our "masters". Some of us collect computers that may have been in government hands before the general policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- remember guns (my next love after computers as computers are my next love after science fiction)? Oh, it's platonic. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 9 22:14:34 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] Message-ID: <01bd1d7e$4242c9c0$LocalHost@hotze> Well, it's not going to affect all of us. I don't see how the government can even claim to control the Internet. (Watch how I so cleverly tangle classics into this. ;-) ) The Internet is like space: Something which is relatively (accesibly) new. With Space, an agreement was made saying how it belonged to all nations. (That's my understading) Now, ever since the first TCP was made on a PDP-11/?? (sorry, memory's a bit bad) The 'Net has been rapidly growing. It's truely international. Here, we've got examples. People from US-Europe-Asia-Austrilia are collecting classics. Now, is it legal for the (US) government to censor a message say going from Tony-Riccardo (In Italy) I mean, it might not even go through a US server. The Internet should be out of any government's controls. We should just have an open standard. Governments should be able to VOTE, on an equal basis of that with companies, etc. And then there are those "encryption standards" last summer.... wiped out any chance of brain activity in DC, outside of businesses.... Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] >Joe wrote: >> >> At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. >> > >> >=-) >> > >> >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> >> One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the >> telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public >> service commisions not by the FCC. > >Sorry to say, it _does_ affect us (though yes, it's off-topic, but most >of us communicate through Internet links). The FedGov has a couple of >taxes on local phone bills for many years. And unless you've forgotten >the CDA, they want control over the Net, with special tools to decode >any messages someone wants private. Classic computers will not work >with those standards, of course. Yes, even if you aren't libertarian. >(I know damned well that there are one or two socialists on this list), >we can be affected -- we can be forbidden to communicate. And there >are at _least_ two attempts in progress to "reword" the CDA so that it >takes away just as much freedom but doesn't hit the federal judicial >hot buttons. > >Seems outrageous? The First Amendment covers everything. Presently. >transmitting Nobel's (the guy who funded the Prize) formula for >explosives is being watched by our "masters". Some of us collect >computers that may have been in government hands before the general >policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came >into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- >remember guns (my next love after computers as computers are my next >love after science fiction)? Oh, it's platonic. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 10 00:37:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <34B6EC78.A62DD2D6@cnct.com> References: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> <3.0.1.16.19980109120850.35776d48@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980110003738.0a17591e@intellistar.net> Ward, I agree with everything that you said, but regulating speech and information is not the same as setting telephone rates. That's what this tread was about. Yes, the Feds do tax telephone service, bu they do not set or limit the rates. That is still controlled by the governing agencies in the individual state governments. And FWIW I'm also into guns and pyro (Fireworks) so I know *VERY* well how the Feds watch and control (notice I didn't say regulate) communictions in there areas. >policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came Actually they drop them in acid. It's a lot more thorough than a chainsaw. Did you see the message that I posted a few weeks ago trying to find a new home for a mint IBM XT minus the hard drive? THAT's what became of it's hard drive. But even that is preferrable to the previous approach. They used to drop the entire computer into acid! That's what happened the first twelve computers in the world. They were built during WW II and used to decode German codes. After the war they were completely destroyed. Most people are completely unaware that they ever existed. >into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- Hi performance cars also. The Feds are determined to save us from ourselves. Joe At 10:35 PM 1/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. >> > >> >=-) >> > >> >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> >> One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the >> telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public >> service commisions not by the FCC. > >Sorry to say, it _does_ affect us (though yes, it's off-topic, but most >of us communicate through Internet links). The FedGov has a couple of >taxes on local phone bills for many years. And unless you've forgotten >the CDA, they want control over the Net, with special tools to decode >any messages someone wants private. Classic computers will not work >with those standards, of course. Yes, even if you aren't libertarian. >(I know damned well that there are one or two socialists on this list), >we can be affected -- we can be forbidden to communicate. And there >are at _least_ two attempts in progress to "reword" the CDA so that it >takes away just as much freedom but doesn't hit the federal judicial >hot buttons. > >Seems outrageous? The First Amendment covers everything. Presently. >transmitting Nobel's (the guy who funded the Prize) formula for >explosives is being watched by our "masters". Some of us collect >computers that may have been in government hands before the general >policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came >into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- >remember guns (my next love after computers as computers are my next >love after science fiction)? Oh, it's platonic. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. > From william at ans.net Fri Jan 9 23:15:48 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, panic, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980110003738.0a17591e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Actually they drop them in acid. It's a lot more thorough than a > chainsaw. Did you see the message that I posted a few weeks ago trying to > find a new home for a mint IBM XT minus the hard drive? THAT's what became > of it's hard drive. But even that is preferrable to the previous approach. Not all government computers get thier drives removed. Of course, just about any NSA or drives relating to contractor R&D programs get destroyed, but many do not. Look at some of the surplus catalogs the GSA puts out - some of the lots are just hard drives. > They used to drop the entire computer into acid! That's what happened the > first twelve computers in the world. They were built during WW II and used > to decode German codes. After the war they were completely destroyed. Most > people are completely unaware that they ever existed. The only machines that really get destroyed are crypto and high-end weapons systems computers. Obviously with the above mentioned machines, they were destroyed because the government did not other countries knowing just how ahead the U.S. was in cryptography. After all, even allies spy on each other. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jan 9 23:18:31 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, panic, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <01bd1d7e$4242c9c0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: > Well, it's not going to affect all of us. I don't see how the government > can even claim to control the Internet. (Watch how I so cleverly tangle > classics into this. ;-) ) I think this happened in 1993 or so, when the NSFnet turned into ANSnet. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jan 9 23:29:13 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- > >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? > > Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of > use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, > and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? And they never break. Or crash. Oh, and yes, if someone has a cheap EL or J series, talk to me! William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 9 23:59:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 References: Message-ID: <34B70E2D.F3835998@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- > >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? > > Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of > use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, > and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? There's some TRS-80 and maybe Apple users around here that might consider theirselves power users when they can do in under 64k what a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least 640K (or lately, 32Mb). And I suspect that anytime Allison has even 4K at hand, she kicks some butt. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 00:41:33 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: <34B70E2D.F3835998@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: Ward Griffiths wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- >> >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? >> >> Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of >> use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, >> and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? > >There's some TRS-80 and maybe Apple users around here that might >consider theirselves power users when they can do in under 64k what >a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least >640K (or lately, 32Mb). And I suspect that anytime Allison has even >4K at hand, she kicks some butt. I stand corrected :^) What can I say, I am operating under the assumption that from the way he wrote it the original poster is using "power user" to mean someone with the latest in IBM PC clone hardware running the travisty known as Windows95. Oh, and of late it seems to be more like 64Mb is the minimum to do anything with a PC suffering the Winbloat. I totally agree that these can't handle stuff that any decently configured computer with less than 64k could do. Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to a Win95 system running Word97. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Jan 10 01:28:50 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: IBM Rescue Needed -- New Mexico Message-ID: <34b922d7.1489933611@mail.wizards.net> Heads up to any CLASSICCMP members in the Santa Fe area or nearby: Found this on Usenet from a fellow looking to clear out a System/36. If you can help, please contact the original author directly. Best of luck! -=-=- -=-=- Path: Supernews70!Supernews60!supernews.com!news.he.net!news.dra.com!nntp.mainstreet.net!feeder.swcp.com!fugu!SantaFe!not-for-mail From: rogick@roadrunner.com (Rick Byrne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc Subject: Free IBM System/36 and Peripherals Date: 9 Jan 1998 16:17:45 GMT Organization: NMML Lines: 14 Message-ID: <695ij9$rpg$8@santaclara.santafe.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial182.roadrunner.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 Xref: Supernews70 comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:92489 My company needs the space and wants to give away an IBM System/36, immediately! We need it out of here ASAP. Runs great! You haul. Equipment is located in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Call Rick at 505-982-5573 or email: rogick@roadrunner.com The equipment is as follows: IBM System/36 Model 5360 IBM 4234 Dot Band Printer 6 IBM 3197 Color Workstations Motorola Codex 2205 Modem Dual Tape Backup by Fathom Technologies About 6 5250 Emulation Cards (Short Length) Everything works great! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin2 {at} wiz d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jan 10 09:58:11 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free System/36 Message-ID: <19980110155811.2792.qmail@hotmail.com> actually, what i meant by the power-user comment was a person who is not afraid to use a black-and-white command prompt if it can help him/her do something. So, would a System/36 be good for me? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jan 10 10:03:48 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Paperclip (Was: Re: Free IBM system 36) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to > a Win95 system running Word97. Sure, but did wordstar have a cute paperclip to tell you where you wanted to go today? Speaking of paperclip... I may have found the ROMs for both Paperclip and Visicalc on the PET computers. Does anyone know what EPROM would fit the ROM sockets in a PET? I've tried crossing the numbers on the ROMs and can't learn anything. Does anyone have a schematic of a PET mainboard? > Zane ttfn srw From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 10 10:08:27 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <199801101608.AA05699@world.std.com> <>640K (or lately, 32Mb). And I suspect that anytime Allison has even <>4K at hand, she kicks some butt. As someone who has (and still does) develope hardware and software, Thank You! <"power user" t The original term is apple/mac in origin and was someone that knew the guts and made their system situp and bark(sometimes literally!). . Code bloat has become fantastic. Peter the folloing messages may be of interest to you. < ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- < < < ----- Transcript of session follows ----- <553 lyndale-486.-. config error: mail loops back to me (MX problem?) <554 ... Local configuration error The rest of the crowd may be interested in this. > a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least > 640K (or lately, 32Mb). 96MB is what I just put into mine. Corel 7 _flies_! ...but, it's hard to unlearn habits. I still find myself deleting <1K text files to "save space". I don't program much anymore, but if I did, I suspect I'd still be trying to squeeze a few bytes out here and there. With memory and HDD's so cheap, tho', and the intense pressure in the software market, it's simply not economically feasible to shave bytes. Also, a lot of the bloat is not only in features ("PIM outputs next year's schedule in HTML for easy posting to the web -- now with finite element analysis of paperclips!"), but things such as clipart, which gets stuck on the hard drive, for convenience...even MSWorks comes with clipart, for Pete's sake. Everything comes with 20 fonts (reminds me of an English restaurant: everything with chips) and a tutorial. From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 10 12:53:39 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <199801102010.MAA09352@mx5.u.washington.edu> > Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to > a Win95 system running Word97. ...but try wordstar on a Win95 system! (Actually, I still sell a few 386 systems as dedicated, cheap systems for word processing.) From msf at redhat.com Sat Jan 10 14:25:16 1998 From: msf at redhat.com (Michael Fulbright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: VAX11 programming book Message-ID: I saw a Boox by Tom somebody (sorry, forgot last name) on Vax-11 programming and assembly language at Barnes&Noble for $6. Its a big hard cover book. It was in the discount stack, if anyone is interested I'd get it and ship it at cost. You might want to check your local B&N and see if they can order it at that cost too. Michael Fulbright msf@redhat.com From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sat Jan 10 15:27:05 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Clock (off topic) Message-ID: <199801102127.WAA29175@mbox.queen.it> At 13:29 09/01/98 -0800, Kip Crosby wrote: >Between Christmas and New Year's I was cleaning out my mother's house and >found a Texas Instruments TI-71, complete with its docs and warranty card. >This is a small, line-powered digital clock. Still works fine. > >What interests me here is that I recall hearing an unsupported contention, >years ago, that this was the _first_ commodity digital clock that used >seven-segment displays instead of flippers. Can anyone confirm or deny? Yes, more or less the "nostalgic taste" is more or less the same with all the '70 's innovations. I recall my first electronic watch: it was one of those black TI with red plastic display. Because of it's strong energy consumption, I had to replace the cells every year. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From rws at ais.net Sat Jan 10 17:45:59 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? Message-ID: Hi everybody. First off, let me ask- does anyone else have a Model II? I've been working on mine recently and I can't get it to work. When I got it the CRT was loose and rattling around the case and the power and reset switches were broken apart. I got these things sorted out and powered it up to get a screen filled with hash. It seems to roll around the screen and no characters are visible, just hash. I put a test clip on the Z80 and found very little activity. The only pin toggling is the clock. All of the address, data, and most of the control bus lines and either low or (apparently) tri-stated. I checked the BUSRQ* line to see if maybe something was asking for the bus and it was high. The BUSAK* output is low, however. Shorting NMI* to ground has no effect whatsoever. After it's been on for a while, turned off and right back on again, the screen remains blank. I changed out the Z80 for a known good one with no effect. I happened to note, however, that the computer generates lots of TVI, and the pattern changes during reset. If anyone has any suggestions, they would be most welcome. Also, if anyone has any schematics for this thing, that would help too. (Alternatively, if you know that a certain part is the same as the Model I, III, or 4, let me know as I have the schematics and working examples of these.) Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 10 20:08:53 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: <199801102010.MAA24369@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980110200853.490f7a78@intellistar.net> At 01:49 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >> a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least >> 640K (or lately, 32Mb). > >96MB is what I just put into mine. Corel 7 _flies_! > >...but, it's hard to unlearn habits. I still find myself deleting <1K text >files to "save space". I don't program much anymore, but if I did, I >suspect I'd still be trying to squeeze a few bytes out here and there. > How right you are! I just bought some old 1976-77 copies of byte magazine today and was looking at the prices. Wow, $195 for an 8K memory board! It's no wonder we strived so hard to shave bytes! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 10 20:22:37 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Rescued two old systems today. Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980110202237.45e722ba@intellistar.net> I went to a hamfest today and picked up two systems that "AREN'T GOING BACK HOME". One is a Rubicon II and the other is a Tandy 6000 HD. The Rubicon uses 2 floppy drives and I think runs CPM. The Tandy is running Xenix (sp?) and has a 8 inch floppy drive and 15Mb hard drive. Can anyone tell me anything about these? How rare? When they were made? If they have any value? etc. Joe From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 18:43:51 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: VAXstation 2000 question Message-ID: OK, the question of the moment is how do I connect a console to a VAXstation 2000? Is it the plug with arrows pointing in opposite directions or do I need a special cable? I'm assuming for a terminal I can just use a laptop running a comm package that does VT100 emulation. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 10 19:58:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: linux Message-ID: <199801110158.AA07101@world.std.com> Pete, Have to send this on list as your address bounces. from "Richard W. Schauer" at Jan 10, 98 05:45:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/aefb258d/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 10 20:51:58 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Anyone ever heard of an Amigo? Message-ID: I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting design for its time. The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M master disks with it as well. It powers up and on the screen it says: V.10 BOOT Insert system diskette in lower drive. I can hear the drive spinning as if its trying to boot from the disk but none of the system disks I have seem to work. Perhaps they are bad, or the drive heads need cleaning. What I really want to know is if anyone has ever seen or worked with one of these, and if you've got any information on it. Thanks! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 10 21:33:42 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Anyone ever heard of an Amigo? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is > something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting > design for its time. > > The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was > simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with > integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard > on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm > assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT > keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to > the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got > a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies > with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M > master disks with it as well. > > It powers up and on the screen it says: > > V.10 BOOT Insert system diskette in lower drive. > > I can hear the drive spinning as if its trying to boot from the disk but > none of the system disks I have seem to work. Perhaps they are bad, or > the drive heads need cleaning. Sam, if you are ever able to 'proof' one of your system disks, I would love to have a copy to add to the archive. I have been after one of those suckers for years! - don > What I really want to know is if anyone has ever seen or worked with one > of these, and if you've got any information on it. > > Thanks! > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 21:54:47 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. Message-ID: I got back from the Portland sale, pretty cool. Seems like most of the people there were Hams, with some possible camara buffs. Most people looking at the computers were interested in stuff for modern systems. There were at least four other people there into the classics though. I went a bit crazy, and ended up with the following: PDP-11/44: Rack 1: 2 RL02's and what appears to be the connections for terminals Rack 2: CPU, dual floppies (8" I think), those funny little tape drives I've heard mentioned, and a Battery Backup I'm questioning the identity of these two, it's how they were labled, but they don't have a DEC nameplate. PDP-11/23: 8" disk and 20Mb HD PDP-11/23: 5.25" disk and 20Mb HD Kaypro II: I'm hoping the floppies are in good shape, I've really been wanting to get one of these. VAXstation 2000 S-100 bus cards: ~6 floppy controllers, ~1 I/O controller, a lot of RAM cards Q-Bus cards: ESDI floppy controller (YES!!!), 2 8Mb RAM cards, a whole pile that looked interesting and I honestly don't have any idea what they are. I think at least a couple are for a MircoPDP-11, and I'm wondering if one isn't a CPU for the MicroPDP-11. I'll probably have questions on what some of these are later, thankfully a couple days ago I found a pretty good Excel Spreadsheet on the net that will hopefully help me to identify them! A shrinkwraped copy of CP/M for the Rainbow 100, one of the manuals and another expansion unit for the Tek workstation I picked up a couple days ago, and maybe one or two other minor items I can't think of now. What can I say I'm pooped, I got my Dad to go, so I could use his Suburban, but I didn't think about how little he can lift nowdays. If it wasn't for Jim Willing, and the guy selling the stuff helping I don't think I'd have gotten the Rack with the 11/40 CPU in the truck. Unfortunately we couldn't figure out how to get the CPU out of the rack :^( I've gotten everything except the 11/40 out of his truck, that's going to have to wait. Unfortuntaly it's starting to snow, so it's probably going to wait until next weekend. No idea if anything works, I'm going to start playing tonite after I get done taking a break. As for the place having the sale, it was incredible, piles of old computers, tons of S-100 bus cards and computers. O-Scopes, ham junk, old camera equipment, etc., etc., etc. Of course to my thinking the prime stuff was was the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 11/730, with those around it was hard to see anything else. I'd have liked to get the VAX, but in all honesty now that I've got the /44 I think I'll stick to MicroVaxes, they're easier to move. I passed up a couple of Bell & Howell Apples (the black ones), they were trashed and didn't have the floppies, I'd have loved them for my Apple collection, but they were to far gone. I really should have picked up a VT220 or one of the other terminals that they had. They had a lot of Televideo stuff, but I didn't recognize what it was. BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rainbow or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboards in sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but the weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( Well, that's it for now, I want to start checking stuff out! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From red at bears.org Sat Jan 10 22:13:44 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > PDP-11/44: > Rack 1: 2 RL02's and what appears to be the connections for terminals > Rack 2: CPU, dual floppies (8" I think), those funny little tape That was you? I stood there for a minute, watching you as you were trying to get the CPU box out of the rack and thinking, "Damn, just a little too late." (: > S-100 bus cards: ~6 floppy controllers, ~1 I/O controller, a lot of RAM cards S-100 was before my time, and so I really don 't know much, but I squirrelled away a SCSI card, Motorola 68k processor card, am '8 i/o' card, a winchester controller, and a couple of cards with multiple Z80s on in case I should hear from anybody here who wants them. They're marked $5 each and I plan on going back down again tomorrow, this time with my father, if anybody wants to holler at me to grab any of these cards. > Q-Bus cards: ESDI floppy controller (YES!!!), 2 8Mb RAM cards, a whole pile I skipped some with 50 pin headers, not knowing whether they were the mythical SCSI cards some people here are anguishing over.. if someone wants to send me some identifying mark to check for, I'll grab them. > figure out how to get the CPU out of the rack :^( (: > BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rainbow > or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboards in > sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but the > weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( I'd wondered about that myself. BTW, if you'd checked the stickers, you'd have seen the Rainbows (had a Rainbow 100 Plus, too) included keyboards and monitors for the $20 asking price. All in all, the pricing was not outstanding one way or the other. Not low, not exorbitant. What you might expect from someone trying to run a more-or-less successful business. I wish more of you all could have gotten to go. The stuff I was seeing was great stuff, but stuff I only recognise by name. If I actually knew what I was doing, I don't think I'd have hesitated to pick up a lot of the stuff there, knowing someone would want it. It was that good. (: Cromemco System 1, 2, and 3s, an Apollo DSP80, Vector 3s and 4s, one or two Tek bits, logs of Xerox and Televideo stuff, several S100 systems, and a 'Zorba CPM' (some sort of Kaypro clone, apparently). All was in good, if not excellent physical condition. When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro 2000, and DG One I saw. (: ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 22:39:39 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >That was you? I stood there for a minute, watching you as you were trying >to get the CPU box out of the rack and thinking, "Damn, just a little too >late." (: At about that point I'd have just about sold it to you! I'm not looking forward to getting it out of the truck! I've got bum knees thanks to the military, and am feeling it tonight! >I skipped some with 50 pin headers, not knowing whether they were the >mythical SCSI cards some people here are anguishing over.. if someone >wants to send me some identifying mark to check for, I'll grab them. I think these were all 40 pin (yes, I was standing around counting a lot of pins). I'd hate to think there were some there and I missed them, as I really need on. Actually I'm hoping I've got one in the pile I did get, but I know I didn't. Still an ESDI controller is better than what I had! >I'd wondered about that myself. BTW, if you'd checked the stickers, you'd >have seen the Rainbows (had a Rainbow 100 Plus, too) included keyboards >and monitors for the $20 asking price. Arghhh, where the *bleep* were the monitors and keyboards? It's a good thing I didn't see that, we were full! >When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro ^^^^^^^ Oh, great, make me kick myself! I was going to pick up the HP and forgot it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From msf at redhat.com Sat Jan 10 22:39:34 1998 From: msf at redhat.com (Michael Fulbright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rainbow > > or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboards in > > sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but the > > weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( > > I'd wondered about that myself. BTW, if you'd checked the stickers, you'd > have seen the Rainbows (had a Rainbow 100 Plus, too) included keyboards > and monitors for the $20 asking price. > I used on of these as a freshman in college 'way back' in 1985. It was based on the PDP-11 architecture. I can't remember exactly how it differed from, say, a PDP 11/34. I programmed both from Fortran, and I recall messing with .OVL files or something to get around the 64k text size. Oh man, that seems a long time ago. BTW, I really want a PDP 11 myself. I figure all interesting things in the history of computer were done on PDP 11's. As I understand C, Unix, and even Bill Gates himself wrote Basic for the PDP 11. I'm just overwhelmed by the size and what I would have to do to keep it going. I'll stick to collecting 8 bit machines for now. Anyone know where to get old Ohio Scientific machines? Michael Fulbright msf@redhat.com From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Jan 10 23:18:43 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work! Help! Message-ID: <000301bd1e50$87eb3e80$54987c0a@office1> This weekend, I decided to replace the rotting foam in my RK05 drives. BTW, self-adhesive weather striping seems to fit well. Home Depot carries one in white (3/8" square) that works for the disk pack air intake. There is also a black one, 7/16" x 3/4" that works for the foam between the blower motor and the card cage. Anyway, I digress. When I finished replacing the foam, I made sure that I vacuumed up any foam particles. I powered-up my 11/34a, and now neither drive gives me an "On Cylinder" light. AFAIR, inserting a disk pack and pressing "load" would produce a distinctive hum, indicating that the spindle motor is starting. Now, I get no hum. Looking inside, I don't see the spindle running. Also, for the first time, one drive popped its circuit breaker. It's almost like both spindles are stuck. They're not, though; I checked (While looking into the spindle motor and spinning the disk spindle I can see the motor fan move.) I did not disconnect any wires during this process. Any clues? BTW, what's the little red switch on the power supply board for? Thanks for the help, again. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 23:48:02 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified Message-ID: Some how I don't think that the two PDP-11's that were supposed to be /23's are, but at least they do appear to be PDP-11's. So my question is what is a M9192? The list I have shows it as being a "DUAL HEIGHT CPU BRD", which is "real" informative! According to the list I've got the 23's CPU's have different numbers. They both have 256KW of 18-bit memory. This brings up an interesting question, how many bytes are there in in a Word when you're talking PDP-11's? Since it's 18 my guess would be 2 with parity bits. While I'm asking I've got some other cards that I can't identify, I think that they're for PDP's and not VAX's. Does anyone recognize any of these, or have a good place on the net for me to look? SCD-RQD11/EC -- this one had 6 connectors for ribbon cables M8059-KP -- I believe it's 64k, is it for PDP? M3104 DHV11 -- It's got two ribbon connectors, by guess is it's for adding other terminals. I seem to have a pair. Distributed Logic Corp. DQ342 -- no idea, two ribbon connectors Plessey P/N 70590-100A -- looks to be a RAM board Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shield at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Jan 11 00:02:05 1998 From: shield at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (shield@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Hayes modem installation Message-ID: <199801110602.XAA23592@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> I was wondering if anyone knew how to install a Hayes 9600 modem into an XT (Ogivar Tech.). There are a MASSIVE 21 megs in the hard drive, and a 5.25 " drive. This is just a learning computer for a friend who will buy up if this one can work. I'm on a non-graphical internet account and the XT has a program already loaded on it to dial out, but the modem isn't being recognized. All I've done is physically put it into the slot ( it fits perfectly inside) and I haven't touched any switches or the autoexec.bat at all. I have no idea it those things are what I'd need to do anyway. Could someone help me out? Keep the information in English, not tech-ese, I'm still learning too! Thank you! From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 00:53:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > Cromemco System 1, 2, and 3s, an Apollo DSP80, Vector 3s and 4s, one or > two Tek bits, logs of Xerox and Televideo stuff, several S100 systems, and > a 'Zorba CPM' (some sort of Kaypro clone, apparently). All was in good, if > not excellent physical condition. > > When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro > 2000, and DG One I saw. (: Geez, pick up a Cromemco System 1, the Apollo and a Vector. Also, the Zorba and one of the Xerox machines. That's some cool stuff. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From red at bears.org Sun Jan 11 01:03:12 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Geez, pick up a Cromemco System 1, the Apollo and a Vector. Also, the > Zorba and one of the Xerox machines. That's some cool stuff. It's all kind of out of my interest range, though. If it were all super cheap, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I already feel guilty at the space my still-small collection takes, and with the Zorba marked at $150 (the only one of those machines that was marked), you'll forgive my hesitance. /: ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 01:12:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Geez, pick up a Cromemco System 1, the Apollo and a Vector. Also, the > > Zorba and one of the Xerox machines. That's some cool stuff. > > It's all kind of out of my interest range, though. If it were all super > cheap, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I already feel guilty at the space my > still-small collection takes, and with the Zorba marked at $150 (the only > one of those machines that was marked), you'll forgive my hesitance. /: Oh. Well in that case I'd definitely skip the Zorba. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From rws at ais.net Sun Jan 11 02:31:55 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: ........ > What is the reset pin doing at the Z80? And what is the WAIT* pin doing. > I wonder if the CPU is either stuck in the reset state, or in a wait > state. RESET* is low for about 500 ms after power-on, then goes high. WAIT* is always high. > I'm pretty sure that if the CPU is halted, it continues to produce > refresh addresses, so you'd see some activity on the address lines and on > RFSH*. Can't hurt to check, though. RFSH* is at a solid 1.4v, and doesn't move with a pull-up. > I assume the clock input is going high enough - from memory a TTL output > needs a pull-up to drive a Z80. CLOCK is swinging from 0.2 to 4.8v at 4MHz. > You really need to be able to distinguish 'Low' from 'Tristate'. If > you're using a 'scope, then pull the input to the Vcc (+5V) line through > a resistor equal to the 'scopes input impedance (1M for most 'scopes, 10M > if you're using a *10 probe) so that the trace floats at 2.5V and > indicates highs and lows. Very few logic analysers (the HP LogicDart is > an exception) have high/low/undefined inputs, alas. Well, I did almost as you said. I had a 47k resistor laying handy on the bench, so I used it. Part of the address bus is low (0.2 or 0.3v), part is tri-stated. Data bus lines D0-D2 and D7 are at a firm 1.4v. D3 is tri-stated and can be pulled to 5v. D4-D6 are low and pull-up to 1.4v. Now, here's where it gets interesting. NMI* had an irregular pulse train coming into it- at the same time the display was flickering. I shut off and turned on again, and the display was blank and NMI* was high. INT*, WAIT*, BUSRQ*, and RESET* are high, BUSAK* is low, and HALT*, MREQ*, IORQ*, RD*, WR*, M1*, and RFSH* are all at a solid 1.4v. (???) > Do you have a schematic of the gate-array version of the M4 CPU board? > I've got an M4 here with said board, and it's the only part of the system > that's not covered in the M3 Techref (which I also have), so I am looking > for a copy/scanned in version of the diagram. > > I would buy a Model 4 technical manual, but Tandy in the UK are totally > clueless and assured me that there was no such machine as a 'TRS-80' :-) I have a 6-page schematic for the CPU, and it shows 4 PAL's. It is dated 23 Feb 1983. Contact me privately and we'll work out how to get it from here to there. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 02:37:36 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Console Cables Message-ID: OK, pardon my myriad of questions tonite, but I'm learning something totally foriegn here. I've done some hunting, and it appears that I was right, the pair of small PDP-11's aren't 23's their 73's. I wan't to see if I can get them to boot, however, I'm wondering how I should connect the terminal. Do I use a straight serial cable 9600 8-N-1, null modem cable, or what. I'm already getting the impression that I'm going to end up building a cable for the VAXstation 2000. Based on what I've been able to find out on that. Hopefully the snow tonite isn't to bad, I don't think I've got any spare connectors laying around right now. Probably a good thing, I'd be tempted to build the cable right now :^) Is this the correct penout for the VS2000 console cable? 2<->3, 3<->2, 7<->7 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From adam at merlin.net.au Sat Jan 10 05:34:30 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Anyone ever heard of an Amigo? Message-ID: <199801111034.VAA29426@arthur.merlin.net.au> >I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is >something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting >design for its time. > >The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was >simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with >integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard >on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm >assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT >keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to >the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got >a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies >with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M >master disks with it as well. I have something called an Amigo, made (although the name is hard to read) by Surwave. Mind you, it could well be a Surwave made by Amigo. :) It also has the z80 and the 6502 on the mother board, but it is not an all-in-one unit. Indeed, it looks a bit like the Aplle ][. I have done what research that I could, and so far have learnt that it was a Korean Apple ][ clone, that could run cp/m or Apple software. They were made in the very early eighties, and were imported into Australia via a person who still resides in Adelaide. I have tracked down some information about him, but have yet to find the person himself. They were quite popular here, but few survived - mine didn't, as it won't show anything on the screen. I am considering getting it repaired, but I don't know enough to do it myself. Anyway, I imagine that your computer is another model by the same people - try an Apple boot disk and see what happens. :) If you want I can continue to try and track down the importer. I know he stopped importing computers and went into the computer embroidery business, which does give me something to work with, anyway. I had given up as I had covered almost everyone I could find who had anything to do with old Apples, but there are still a couple of loose leads. I'm sure he would know about any other systems made by the company. Adam. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 06:48:30 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? Message-ID: <01bd1e8f$37f06560$3868420c@magnum> Hi all, Is there an official name for all various computer packages? What I trying to find is how to call a computer that is just a keyboard that you plug on the TV (a la C64)versus a computer that has everything attached (TRS 80 mod 4) versus a PC style where components are separate. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/a4b50ff4/attachment.html From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 06:51:54 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: What are the firsts? first video game first TV video game first personal computer (I think I know that one) first portable computer first laptop first GUI first OS etc... It would be interesting to compile a list of first with their date of appearance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/8700e117/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 09:53:27 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111095327.39cf8212@intellistar.net> At 11:13 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: > >When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro >2000, and DG One I saw. (: > > What were they wanting for the HP IPC? If you don't want it, I'll take it off your hands. BE SURE to look around for any external HP disk drives! Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 10:53:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111105312.480fef7c@intellistar.net> At 06:51 AM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: >What are the firsts? >first video game >first TV video game >first personal computer (I think I know that one) >first portable computer >first laptop >first GUI >first OS >etc... >It would be interesting to compile a list of first with their date of appearance. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. Wow, those questions should stir up a hornet's nest! I'll in my two cents worth. Personal Computer: IBM called the 5100 a personal computer and also a portable computer. I think they called it a personal computer since it did not normally support any remote terminals and only supported one user at a time. the 5100 was IBM's first "personal computer" but I don't know if it came before or after PCs from other manufacturers. Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected glass screen and there was no protective case for it, the keyboard or the rear connectors. Even the early KayPros and Compaqs were much more portable than a 5100! To me at least, it's very questionable wheather or not the 5100 should be considered a "Portable Computer". The HP 85 was built similarly but at least HP provided a case as an option. Joe From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Jan 11 10:01:11 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: XT Parts Message-ID: <01bd1eaa$232f06c0$LocalHost@hotze> Hello. From what I've heard, XT's practally line the streets in some places. But, not here. :-( But, I've got most of an XT here. If anyone has some spare parts, that they're willing to donate/sell, than that would be great. What I need: a HDD, as after testing the one that came with mine on 2 machines, it doesn't work. It sounds bad, too. Preferably, one that's a 10MB, like the origional IBM. I don't have any SW, so it would be handy if you could just take one out. But, if not, I can try other things. A Controller, one that can handle Big Blue's origional 360K A second one, that can handle the above hard drive. (May not be needed) A video card. I need to figure out what's wrong with my XT monitor, as it doesn't seem to be working. But, I could just use my CGA. And, yes, I'm sure that I need all these. I've tried every part, and none of them work. I tested my monitor on a friends CGA graphics card (but set to mono), and the picture was CLEAR. I'm willing to pay for these, as they'd make my first working classic. And, I know that beggers can't be choosers. From mhyde at kconline.com Sun Jan 11 05:06:46 1998 From: mhyde at kconline.com (adam hyde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: wanted for tandy 1400 Message-ID: <34B8A7A7.E148B0E4@kconline.com> i need an adapter and hard disk for a tandy 1400 laptop From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 11 10:11:26 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: DEC Pro 350 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980111101126.00b4c450@pc> I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet. Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 10:31:05 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. Message-ID: <199801111631.AA21708@world.std.com> <> > BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rai <> > or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboar <> > sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but th <> > weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( The PRO350 is a member of the PDP-11 family. The processor is the F-11, that's the same one as the 11/23 and they could carry up to 1meg of ram. The bus physically is unique to the pro but it is similar to q-bus in signals and timing. As to options: RX50 floppy RD50/51/52 hard disks(rd51 10meg was common) various memory options APUs for 8088 or z80s eithernet interface Color graphics Operating system was POS and was a modified version of RSX and is a multitasking os. RT-11 was also available. Many programming languages were available. Venix is available on the net for this box. Speed, the PRO350 was slightly faster than the 11/23 though the disk interfaces were slower. It did make a good workstation. Versions, There was a PRO380 which used the J-11 (11/73 11/83) processor which was faster and also the design carried more memory. Same box. I have one and they are neat small machines. You need a monitor and keyboard to make it complete. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 10:31:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified Message-ID: <199801111631.AA21754@world.std.com> You missed calculators and there are rough catagories: First eletronic calc first pocket calc HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain. First programable calc Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 adam@merlin.net.au wrote: > >I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is > >something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting > >design for its time. > > I have something called an Amigo, made (although the name is hard to > read) by Surwave. Mind you, it could well be a Surwave made by Amigo. :) > It also has the z80 and the 6502 on the mother board, but it is not an > all-in-one unit. Indeed, it looks a bit like the Aplle ][. I have done > Anyway, I imagine that your computer is another model by the same people > - try an Apple boot disk and see what happens. :) Adam, what you are describing is of course an Apple clone. What I've got here is a straight CP/M machine. Thanks to Hans Pufal's Comprehensive Computer Catalogue (http://www.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc) I've tracked down the date of manufacture as November 1982. And I forgot to mention the name of the manufacturer was on the motherboard (as well as on Hans' page). It's Ontel. I actually got two motherboards with this. One is a revision A and the other (the one actually installed) is revision F. This is cool because I have a stash of spare parts I guess. Still can't get it to boot but I guess I'll put it away with the others until my sabbatical. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jan 11 11:15:25 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 10, 98 09:48:02 pm Message-ID: <9801111715.AA19671@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/9f792cf2/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 11:16:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? In-Reply-To: <01bd1e8f$37f06560$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > Hi all, Is there an official name for all various computer packages? > What I trying to find is how to call a computer that is just a keyboard > that you plug on the TV (a la C64)versus a computer that has everything > attached (TRS 80 mod 4) versus a PC style where components are separate. For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU a "console". Basically, anything with an integrated CPU, keyboard and video output I call a console. I don't tend to think of things like the Apple ][ as "consoles" because they didn't use a TV as their monitor by default, which the above systems generally did (there goes my Apple ][ bias again). But really, the Apple ][ fits my description of "console". The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would be "computers" because they have all the basic adjuncts to define an entire computer in the most generic sense of the word (CPU, keyboard, display, storage). Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, disk drives, perhaps a mouse... Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people prefer to refer to them as "mini's". Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 11:31:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: No debates necessary on some of these as there were definite firsts. For instance: > first video game "Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan Bushnell. > first TV video game The Odyssey. Came out in 1972. It used wafer carthridges for games that weren't actually ROMs but actually just "patches" to re-configure the console to throw different sprites onto the screen. > first personal computer (I think I know that one) This is harder to define. The question really is, who's definition of "personal" are we referring to? Everyone's got their own. Some people consider certain mainframes to have been "personal computers" because you could actually sit down at the main console and have the computer all to yourself. If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few months. > first portable computer Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a PDP-8 across a bridge some years ago. She got funny looks, but she "ported" her computer elsewhere. However, I believe this one goes to the IBM 5100. However, did I hear grumblings of something portable pre-dating even the 5100? Like something from HP in the early 70s? > first laptop Unless you had a huge lap, the only computer that could comfortably fit there was, I believe, the Epson HX-20. It had a keyboard, display and storage integrated into one unit which is the same size and weight as some notebook computers today. > first GUI Correct my details if I'm wrong but I believe the OS was dubbed "Smalltalk" and was developed by Xerox at the Palo Alto Research Center in 1972. Steve Jobs got his Lisa inspiration from his visit to PARC in, I believe, 1979? > first OS Now this is another tough one. First you need to define "operating system". But I won't even speculate a guess here because there are people far more knowledgeable than I of the time period when the first "OS" would have been created. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 13:40:44 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111631.AA21877@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111134044.3a1fcb16@intellistar.net> At 11:31 AM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you >man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20 >years to things like old surplus missle computers, homebrewed systems and >PDP-8s and the like. Prior to the IBM abortion pc meant personally owned >and was not based on what it was but who owned it. Personally owned >computers was a new thing starting in the late 60s to early 70s. Around >72-73 it was possible to buy a used PDP-8 or CM2000 for a few thousand >dollars. I know in December of 72 I almost bought a Cincinati Millicron >CM2000 for the offered price of $2000(big bucks then) with 8k of core, >serial line card and 6port muxed serial card. > I don't think a Cincinati Millicron would hardly be considered a "Personal Computer" no matter what the number of owners. > >Define portable as I'd seen totables in the late 70s. One very nice one >was an expanded EVK68 board in a classy wood case with a small crt and >keyboard. > >One that comes to mind was the HP(5100?) complete packaged system with >tape for storage and basic and GPIB for external interface. The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had BASIC or APL or both! > Joe From pvhp at forte.com Sun Jan 11 11:52:52 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9801111752.AA23563@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Firsts Allison J Parent wrote: >You missed calculators and there are rough catagories: > >First eletronic calc > >first pocket calc > >HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain. > >First programable calc Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 (which is not a great book: much content was apparently largely dictated by the PR departments of a few Silicon Valley companies and thrown together much as a newspaper article would be. It nontheless contains some interesting photos and bibliographic references and I think was the result of a rushed editorial deadline (why would a publisher rush a history book?)). > >This is real old likely in the late 40s early 50s and was likely a >machine monitor system to load/save programs. Even the PDP-1 had an OS >to timeshare multiple users. You may have to be more specific as to tthe >type or style of OS as there are several and the appearance of each >corosponds to emerging concepts in computing. There are references to the operation of the IBM/Harvard Mark I (programming loops were constructed by literally looping the input tape back on itself e.g.) It could be argued that such an early machine was not a stored program computer hence could not even support an OS. If however one does not limit oneself to only software notions of OS then the "Start" button could be considered to be an OS - implemented in hardware. I personally don't know much about the early Sperry Rand or Manchester->Ferranti computers (first commercial computers) since so much of the widely available literary records are dominated by IBM's history, but certainly by the time of the IBM 705 (mid 50's) there were OSes. Few of the early ones were time-sharing and many were not even "full-duplex". Peter Prymmer From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 13:51:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? In-Reply-To: References: <01bd1e8f$37f06560$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111135102.47f7070c@intellistar.net> At 09:16 AM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > >> Hi all, Is there an official name for all various computer packages? >> What I trying to find is how to call a computer that is just a keyboard >> that you plug on the TV (a la C64)versus a computer that has everything >> attached (TRS 80 mod 4) versus a PC style where components are separate. > >For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU >a "console". Basically, anything with an integrated CPU, keyboard and >video output I call a console. I don't tend to think of things like the >Apple ][ as "consoles" because they didn't use a TV as their monitor by >default, which the above systems generally did (there goes my Apple ][ >bias again). But really, the Apple ][ fits my description of "console". > >The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would >be "computers" because they have all the basic adjuncts to define an >entire computer in the most generic sense of the word (CPU, keyboard, >display, storage). > >Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a >system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, >disk drives, perhaps a mouse... What would you call a HP Integral? It has screen, printer, keyboard (detachable but stores on the unit), disk drive, CPU, memory, etc in one unit. But also has a HP-IB cable connection and can be connected to upto 14 peripherals including printers, instruments, more floppy or hard drives, etc. I don't think you can clearly differentiate some of these machines. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 13:58:49 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> At 09:31 AM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > >> Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: > >No debates necessary on some of these as there were definite firsts. For >instance: > >> first video game > >"Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may >correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan >Bushnell. > >> first TV video game > >The Odyssey. Came out in 1972. It used wafer carthridges for games that >weren't actually ROMs but actually just "patches" to re-configure the >console to throw different sprites onto the screen. > >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) > >This is harder to define. The question really is, who's definition of >"personal" are we referring to? Everyone's got their own. Some people >consider certain mainframes to have been "personal computers" because you >could actually sit down at the main console and have the computer all to >yourself. > >If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video >output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed >at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your >own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ >was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few >months. I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was released in 1975. Joe> From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:32:06 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111631.AA21877@world.std.com> Message-ID: > If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you > man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20 > years to things like old surplus missle computers, homebrewed systems and > PDP-8s and the like. Prior to the IBM abortion pc meant personally owned > and was not based on what it was but who owned it. Personally owned > computers was a new thing starting in the late 60s to early 70s. Around > 72-73 it was possible to buy a used PDP-8 or CM2000 for a few thousand > dollars. I know in December of 72 I almost bought a Cincinati Millicron > CM2000 for the offered price of $2000(big bucks then) with 8k of core, > serial line card and 6port muxed serial card. The PDP-8/s (a weird, low-cost, serial version of the PDP-8) was the first machine that really could be owned by anyone with the cash ($10,000, according to the announcement ad in Scientific American). DEC had one at each sales office for cash and carry sales. I would not be suprised if at least a few engineers that made it big in 1960s military contracting purchased some on a whim. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:39:41 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > first video game > > "Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may > correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan > Bushnell. Spacewar for the PDP-1 is the granddaddy. Still runs, once a year (hopefully, if the West Coast computer museum keeps up the tradition). Then I suppose there were probably simulations run for the SAGE system in the 1950s, but they probably were not fun and do not count. > If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video > output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed > at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your > own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ > was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few > months. When did the Sphere-1s start shipping? My boards have 1975 dates on them. The Sphere-1s were also integrated systems, with a standard setup having the 6800 CPU board, a video board, 16K RAM, and a serial interface board. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 12:57:26 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? Message-ID: <01bd1ec2$c2713650$d169420c@magnum> But then where would the mac (toaster style) fit? Computer or system? I am not sure the term computer to differenciate the box styles is adequate since they are all basically "Computers" I guess what I'm trying to find is a term to differenciate the packaging of computers. Also consoles is used for video games that plugs on the TV and would cause confusion. System is a pretty broad designation that can describe a lost of things. Am I getting picky or what? Maybe we need to invent some terms a la jargon in order to differentiate the various types of packaging. >For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU >a "console". Basically, anything with an integrated CPU, keyboard and >video output I call a console. I don't tend to think of things like the >Apple ][ as "consoles" because they didn't use a TV as their monitor by >default, which the above systems generally did (there goes my Apple ][ >bias again). But really, the Apple ][ fits my description of "console". > >The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would >be "computers" because they have all the basic adjuncts to define an >entire computer in the most generic sense of the word (CPU, keyboard, >display, storage). > >Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a >system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, >disk drives, perhaps a mouse... > >Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people >prefer to refer to them as "mini's". > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:44:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9801111752.AA23563@forte.com> Message-ID: > >First programable calc > > Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to > the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel > 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit > shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to > Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: > A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 Wang's first (or quite near their first) product was an all electronic calculator, introduced in the late 1960s. They are big, but could be lugged around. The best part about them is the core memory! No microprocessors here (in fact, it may be discrete transistors - I better open the thing up a check). William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 12:53:03 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: >> first portable computer > >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a >PDP-8 across a bridge some years ago. She got funny looks, but she >"ported" her computer elsewhere. However, I believe this one goes to the >IBM 5100. However, did I hear grumblings of something portable pre-dating >even the 5100? Like something from HP in the early 70s? Well, if you believe the Smithsonian's "Museum of American History" and I believe DEC's advertising this goes to one of the PDP's, I don't remember which one. I don't think it was a -8 or -11, and it's been over four years since I was last to the museum so my memory isn't the best. They showed the computer being in the back of a convertible IIRC, and actually had the computer there at the musuem. Big sucker. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 13:07:31 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1ec4$2a851530$d169420c@magnum> I meant by the original posting to try to gather a list of firsts. Any definitions of first are acceptable and if they can be extended to familly of hardware, software, packaging gimmicks etc. is OK. What I found interesting in the question is more in the order of finding out how long an idea has been out there and how many categories can be found. I see a lot of questions about defining such and such term I guess it is more fun to find out what YOU understand by the words OS, Personal computer, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Francois Auradon To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 6:18 AM Subject: Firsts Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: What are the firsts? first video game first TV video game first personal computer (I think I know that one) first portable computer first laptop first GUI first OS etc... It would be interesting to compile a list of first with their date of appearance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/2df42098/attachment.html From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:53:02 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111095327.39cf8212@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge > you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold. That is because they are, at least to the test engineering world. These people spend large amounts for just about everything ($500 power supplies, $3000 signal generators, etc.), so a $20 cable is nothing to them. The dealers know they can get a large amount for HPIB cables, so they do. William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 12:55:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified In-Reply-To: <9801111715.AA19671@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 10, 98 09:48:02 pm Message-ID: >2. I think you have a M8192, not a M9192. A M8192 is a KDJ11A, the >OEM/upgrade version of the PDP-11/73 CPU. I goofed on this one, it is the M8192. It makes sense that its an OEM version, since these were OEM'd by SMS so they really aren't true PDP-11/73's I guess, but I'm hoping they will be easier to get up and running than the /44. >It seems you've already found Ron Copley's "field guide", but the >real definitive answer for DEC boards is a 4000-page list of options >I have on my desk at work :-) No, I haven't. But now that I know it exists I've got it, took me a few minutes searching and I've got it. I found was what was supposed to be a stock list for one of the resellers, and this is what I had been using. It's a very complete list, and had all the DEC MicroVAX stuff that I've got on it I believe, but it's lacking on the PDP-11 cards. I found the list at http://www.minicomputer.com/ >> Distributed Logic Corp. DQ342 -- no idea, two ribbon connectors > >What size ribbon connectors? If a 34-pin and a 20-pin, it's probably >a MFM hard drive controller. But Dilog made lots and lots of stuff >over the years, and I can never keep the numbers straight, so you may >have to describe the board a bit more before I recognize it. It's a 34-pin and a 10-pin. If it's a MFM controller doesn't sound like it's much use to me at this point. Especially if the ESDI controller will work. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 12:58:40 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: DEC Pro 350 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980111101126.00b4c450@pc> Message-ID: >I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it >fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet. >Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though. Ah, what does it take to get it talking to Mac's and Amiga's? I'm assuming if this can be done for the DEC Pro 350, I can do something simular with the 11/73 or a VAX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:57:03 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd1ec4$2a851530$d169420c@magnum> Message-ID: > I meant by the original posting to try to gather a list of firsts. So what? It is fun! Anyway, it has turned this list back on course (for a while there I was really getting sick of the off topic posts like Linux, PeeCees, God, etc.). Thank You. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 13:16:42 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1ec5$730d8b60$d169420c@magnum> >You missed calculators and there are rough catagories: > >First eletronic calc > >first pocket calc > >HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain. > >First programable calc Good point here thank you. By the way the list was not exhaustive pleas feel free to add anything and everything you want. > > > >If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you >man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20 What I meant by personal computer was computers mass produced for the home market. But the rest is still good. What was the first computer to enter the home (coming from the industry)? > >Define portable as I'd seen totables in the late 70s. One very nice one >was an expanded EVK68 board in a classy wood case with a small crt and >keyboard. My interpretation of portable is a computer that is meant to be moved from place to place fairly easilly: that means integrated monitor, disk drive (or tape player), a carrying handle (or two). > >One that comes to mind was the HP(5100?) complete packaged system with >tape for storage and basic and GPIB for external interface. > > >Not sure but it wasnt a dos based for sure. Tandy trs100 or the similar >NEC, Epson, and others. > > >Xerox PARC smalltalk > > >This is real old likely in the late 40s early 50s and was likely a >machine monitor system to load/save programs. Even the PDP-1 had an OS >to timeshare multiple users. You may have to be more specific as to tthe >type or style of OS as there are several and the appearance of each >corosponds to emerging concepts in computing. > >Allison > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 13:37:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801111937.AA05890@world.std.com> < I don't think a Cincinati Millicron would hardly be considered a <"Personal Computer" no matter what the number of owners. That specific machine was about the same size as a PDP-8e and about 60 pounds. For that era that was very compact and light. But personal it was as at that time it resided in my bedroom while I was trying to write some simple code via asr33/ptape. < The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 11, 98 10:55:57 am Message-ID: <9801111950.AA18441@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/be6392b8/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 13:51:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801111951.AA13298@world.std.com> <> own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ] <> was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few <> months. < <> >First programable calc <> <> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goe <> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the in <> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bi No, this was not the first by a long means. I vaguely remember a desktop HP job that was years earlier. There were designs that were RTL and utililogic and even earlier designs that were about the size of a desk drawer that were both totally electronic and to some extent programable. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 13:51:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801111951.AA13467@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 11, 98 02:51:16 pm Message-ID: <9801111955.AA19990@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/bfae48ab/attachment.ksh From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 14:31:30 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1ecf$e646dff0$0100007f@magnum> >> > first video game >> >> "Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may >> correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan >> Bushnell. > >Spacewar for the PDP-1 is the granddaddy. Still runs, once a year >(hopefully, if the West Coast computer museum keeps up the tradition). Wouldn't that be the first computer game? I am not familliar with the PDP-1 but it sounds like a computer name. > From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 11 14:57:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <01bd1ec5$730d8b60$d169420c@magnum> Message-ID: <34B9321E.658FFAE4@cnct.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > What I meant by personal computer was computers mass produced for the home > market. But the rest is still good. What was the first computer to enter the > home (coming from the industry)? The Pet and the Apple II were advertisted from the beginning of 1977 on as home systems. Few units went there for quite a while, so the TRS-80 (later called Model One) was the first in quantity. Then again, I had a Digicomp I, the first "toy" computer. It was definitely not aimed at the business market back in the mid 19660's. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jan 11 14:57:50 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6130 Engineering Workstation In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy"'s message of Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:51:19 -0800 References: Message-ID: <199801112057.MAA17628@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > There is also a terminal with it, a "Ann Arbor XL Series" that connects via > a Serial line. Does anyone have any idea what kind of terminal this is? > It's very wierd, it's the only ASCII terminal that I've seen which is a > portrait-mode terminal! Is this some kind of VT-100 compatible or > something? The only thing I've ever seen that even comes close is some of > the old Macintosh monitors. It's probably a flavor of the Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal. I remember them as being in somewhat widespread use by Unix folks in the early-to-mid 1980s, their major feature being the number of lines of source you could fit on the screen. They pretty much fell out of favor across the mid-1980s with the proliferation of bit-mapped displays. -Frank McConnell From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 03:58:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <9801111752.AA23563@forte.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111035818.434fb73a@intellistar.net> At 01:44 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >First programable calc >> >> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to >> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel >> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit >> shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to >> Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: >> A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 > >Wang's first (or quite near their first) product was an all electronic >calculator, introduced in the late 1960s. They are big, but could be >lugged around. The best part about them is the core memory! No >microprocessors here (in fact, it may be discrete transistors - I better >open the thing up a check). > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > HP's first calculator, the 9100a, was introduced in 1967 or 68. It had no ICs, used core memories, and used logic gates made of diodes and resistors. It did have transistors but they were mainly used as amplifiers for the core memory. I guess it still qualifies as "solid state".) It was fully proggramable and used RPN. I have a 9100B with a 1969 date code. I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from about 1966. Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 04:02:37 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980111095327.39cf8212@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111040237.434ffc72@intellistar.net> At 01:53 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge >> you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold. > >That is because they are, at least to the test engineering world. These >people spend large amounts for just about everything ($500 power supplies, >$3000 signal generators, etc.), so a $20 cable is nothing to them. The >dealers know they can get a large amount for HPIB cables, so they do. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net $20 HA! Some of the dealers want $50+ plus for used ones around here. OTOH I have been given bunches of them and there are tons of them available. I just meant to warn him not to let them stick it to him for a cable or let the price of the cable stand in the way of buying the HP IPC. Joe > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 11:11:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111105312.480fef7c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 11, 98 10:53:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/fc64a88d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 10:53:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work! Help! In-Reply-To: <000301bd1e50$87eb3e80$54987c0a@office1> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 11, 98 00:18:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/579849c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 11:03:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? In-Reply-To: from "Richard W. Schauer" at Jan 11, 98 02:31:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/6d3c58c8/attachment.ksh From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 11 16:21:44 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Hayes modem installation Message-ID: <199801112229.OAA18464@mx4.u.washington.edu> > I was wondering if anyone knew how to install a Hayes 9600 modem into > an XT (Ogivar Tech.). This is slightly off-topic, so e-mail me privately and I'll tell you. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 11 15:53:50 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: XT Parts Message-ID: <199801112229.OAA03810@mx5.u.washington.edu> > What I need: > a HDD, as after testing the one that came with mine on 2 machines, it Who are you? I have lotsa XT stuff. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 11 16:14:26 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? Message-ID: <199801112229.OAA18465@mx4.u.washington.edu> I deal a _lot_ with new users, so my answers are a bit different. I use precise, non-standard (but descriptive) terminology. My goal is to employ labels such that non-users can understand instantly what I mean. > For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU > a "console". I call 'em a "keyboard", as that is what they look like. > The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would > be "computers" Me too. More precisely, "old-style computer" > > Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a > system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, > disk drives, perhaps a mouse... I call the -- Monitor => Screen Case => System box I always stress that the 3 1/2" is called a "floppy ", because a surprising number of people think that they are "hard drives". I also see them commonly called "tapes" (and installing a program is commonly called "programming") > > Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people > prefer to refer to them as "mini's". I just call them computers -- newbies generally don't know the difference. (Besides, if you gave up your old stuff and all got PC's with Win95, you would have _real_ computers and get _real_ work done....snicker snicker.) (Quick! Now, I gotta change my e-mail address, lest I be buried under tons of irate e-mail...) manney@nwohio.com From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 16:38:03 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) > > I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was > released in 1975. Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) > Joe> ttfn srw From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 16:43:24 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> first portable computer > > > >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a > > Well, if you believe the Smithsonian's "Museum of American History" and I > believe DEC's advertising this goes to one of the PDP's, I don't remember > which one. I don't think it was a -8 or -11, and it's been over four years > since I was last to the museum so my memory isn't the best. They showed > the computer being in the back of a convertible IIRC, and actually had the > computer there at the musuem. Big sucker. Wasn't there a DEC ad showing a PDP-8 fitting in the trunk (boot, or is that a hood or bonnet?) of a VW bug? Would that qualify it as portable? > Zane ttyl srw From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 16:49:02 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111951.AA13467@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > first successful market venture Apple-II june-77 IIRC, that was April 77 (at the west coast computer faire.) You might also want to add the PET 2001 to this list... also April 77 at the WCCF. > Allison ttfn srw From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 06:21:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111951.AA13355@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111062101.3b07f670@intellistar.net> At 02:51 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > ><> >First programable calc ><> ><> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goe ><> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the in ><> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bi > >No, this was not the first by a long means. I vaguely remember a desktop >HP job that was years earlier. Take a look at the picture at "http://www.teleport.com/~dgh/hpmuseum.html" and see if you can spot it. Also look at some of the pictures of the HP 98xx calculators on that are linked to that page. > >There were designs that were RTL and utililogic Sounds like the HP 9100. Look at one on my website at "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\hp9100.htm" and even earlier designs >that were about the size of a desk drawer Sounds like one of the HP 9800 series.. that were both totally >electronic and to some extent programable. > >Allison > > Joe From cdenham at tgis.co.uk Sun Jan 11 17:22:43 1998 From: cdenham at tgis.co.uk (Christopher Denham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34b952d9.13571571@mail.tgis.co.uk> On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:03:28 +0000 (GMT), you wrote: >> >> On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> ........ >> > What is the reset pin doing at the Z80? And what is the WAIT* pin doing. >> > I wonder if the CPU is either stuck in the reset state, or in a wait >> > state. >> >> RESET* is low for about 500 ms after power-on, then goes high. WAIT* is >> always high. >> >> > I'm pretty sure that if the CPU is halted, it continues to produce >> > refresh addresses, so you'd see some activity on the address lines and on >> > RFSH*. Can't hurt to check, though. >> >> RFSH* is at a solid 1.4v, and doesn't move with a pull-up. > >Wait a second... It's at a constant, DC 1.4V? Are you sure? > >You're not missing a power line, are you? I suppose a low supply rail on >chips driven by this signal could cause some strange happenings. Check >all the outputs from the power supply with a 'scope. Apart from that, I >am confused. There's no way a TTL output should be stuck at that voltage. > > >> part is tri-stated. Data bus lines D0-D2 and D7 are at a firm 1.4v. D3 >> is tri-stated and can be pulled to 5v. D4-D6 are low and pull-up to 1.4v. > >Kersqueeble... What on earth is going on here. > >> Now, here's where it gets interesting. NMI* had an irregular pulse train >> coming into it- at the same time the display was flickering. I shut off > >There may well be an interrupt from the display system to the CPU - a >sort of poor-mans heartbeat for the real time clock. > > >> and turned on again, and the display was blank and NMI* was high. INT*, >> WAIT*, BUSRQ*, and RESET* are high, BUSAK* is low, and HALT*, MREQ*, >> IORQ*, RD*, WR*, M1*, and RFSH* are all at a solid 1.4v. (???) > >That 1.4V worries me. What about the buffers on these signals? Are they >getting the 5V power? > >> >> > Do you have a schematic of the gate-array version of the M4 CPU board? >> > I've got an M4 here with said board, and it's the only part of the system >> > that's not covered in the M3 Techref (which I also have), so I am looking >> > for a copy/scanned in version of the diagram. >> > >> > I would buy a Model 4 technical manual, but Tandy in the UK are totally >> > clueless and assured me that there was no such machine as a 'TRS-80' :-) >> >> I have a 6-page schematic for the CPU, and it shows 4 PAL's. It is dated >> 23 Feb 1983. Contact me privately and we'll work out how to get it from >> here to there. > >Alas, I think that's the older version of the CPU board. Is there a 6845 >on it? Later versions, like the one in my machine, have a custom Tandy 40 >pin gate array alongside the CPU which contains most of the video >circuitry, etc. > >On the other hand, it's a lot better than nothing, so if you could make a >copy of it, we can come to some arrangement about getting it to me. > > >> >> Richard Schauer >> rws@ais.net > I have a TRS-80 MODEL II TECHNICAL REFERENCE HANDBOOK Catalog Number 26-4921 dated 1980 and a flatbed scanner so any pages you would like to see i could email them to you direct ......... Cheers Chris Denham cdenham@tgis.co.uk From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 17:45:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801112345.AA20284@world.std.com> < I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from References: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> At 04:38 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) >> >> I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was >> released in 1975. > >Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' >to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. Joe > >> Joe> > >ttfn >srw > > From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 18:07:08 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' > >to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) > > I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til > January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it > was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. The Altair article was in the Popular Electronics January 1975 issue. The cover headline is "World's First Minicomputer Kit to Rival Commercial Models... "ALTAIR 8800" SAVE OVER $1000" > Joe ttyl srw From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 18:30:15 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: DM11 Maintenance Jumper Message-ID: OK, I just found a very simple DEC part called M974 DM11 Maintenance Jumper. What is it? William Donzelli william@ans.net From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 11 19:50:11 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I now have in my possession three PDP-8/Is (only around 4000 were produced) from Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri! They are in reasonably crusty condition, having been stored in a garage for 10 years or more, but appear to be all there. One has no peripherals, one has a DecTape drive and another has the high-speed paper tape reader. The machine with the DecTape, which is apparently a Posibus machine, has a custom interface built out of DEC Building Blocks modules...ALOT of them and is very nifty. I expect restoration to occupy months or years but is, nevertheless, quite probable. In addition, I received a PDP-11/34 without programmers console (just the plain boot switch console) with an RK05f and an RK05j. It is tremendously heavy and my assistant and I were nearly (quite literally) crushed in our attempts to get it on the truck. Our spotter did not inform of us a dip in the concrete and it tipped backward on us with only our spotter giving us the necessary force, at the last moment, to lift it back up. It was highly unpleasant. I received several boxes of flip-chips, manuals (LOTS of manuals), tech sheets, blank paper tape still in the box and other items that I haven't had an opportunity to explore. The boxes were stored in a basement so there's a fair amount of water damage and a LOVELY musty odor (woo hoo). =-) I also received an Teletype ASR-33, for which I have manuals fortunately, in fairly crustated condition. Someone left a tape in the mechanism and, through the years of being stored in a basement, it has become yellowed, brittle and has adhered to the unit. Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the external hard drive, which apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. I'll have pictures and information on the website at http://www.retrocomputing.com as soon as I get them unloaded and situated. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 18:43:51 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But what about the LINC? Did you see it? William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Jan 11 19:13:31 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: How does Microcode work?? Message-ID: <000f01bd1ef7$77359e80$54987c0a@office1> Tony, Allison, Roger: Thanks for the quick tutorial on microcode. I knew that it was an involved topic worthy of many hundreds of pages of text, but you did a great job of giving me a thumbnail of the topic. Tony, thanks for the book refs. I'll try to track some of them down. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jan 11 19:45:05 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: DM11 Maintenance Jumper In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 11, 98 07:30:15 pm Message-ID: <9801120145.AA20449@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/2b24f2c4/attachment.ksh From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 11 21:22:53 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980111221853.006c70c4@netpath.net> Talk about coincidence, after this thread popped up, and me never having laid eyes on a C-64c, I found one in a local thrift shop. Bought the whole thing, included a 1541 floppy, all cables, a whole box of software, and a Magnovox RGB color monitor, which I now have hooked up to my Atari Jag. I never noticed before how much sharper those RGB monitors are compared to TVs. Well, I plan on playing with the C-64c for a while, but when I tire of it, I'll be selling it, sans monitor. Anyone be interested? At 09:02 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >I see them from time to time here in the TwinCities. I do not buy them >anymore, I have 6. They have shape like the C128 and the same color and >run all the old cartridges. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 21:40:34 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SMS 1000 aka PDP-11/73 Message-ID: OK, I've powered on both of the systems with the PDP-11/73 processor boards in it. I now know that they are apparently "SMS 1000" machines, but I've been able to find nothing on it on the net, except for a web page that has a picture of one in a 'tower' case http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/collection/manufacturer-sms/1000.html Mine is in a rack mount case though. It has 5 buttons and a small alphanumeric LED display that gives some system info when the system is powering up. I'm quite honestly not sure how to proceed. I've connected a laptop running TELIX for VT100 emulation. This gave me some trouble initially, but it started working once I added a "Null Modem" adapter I had (trust me you don't want to see the console cable I put together with three adapters). The display and buttons are layed out like this. +-----------------------------+ | DISPLAY | +-----------------------------+ +------+------+------+------+ | MENU | < | > | * | +--+---+---+--+---+--+---+--+ | RE | RUN | WRT | | START | HALT | PROT | +-------+------+------+ On the one with the 5.25" floppy I get the following when it comes up. SMS 1000 BOOTSTRAP 256KW MEMORY 11/73 CPU BOOTABLE DEVICES: DEVICE DEVICE UNIT NAME TYPE NUMBERS DU DSA 0-15 MU TK50 0 MS TS 0 ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER: AUTO - BOOT BOOTING FROM DEVICE 0 ***THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM *** 000034 @ On the one with the 8" I get HELLO MIKE BOOTSTRAP 256KW MEMORY 11/73 CPU BOOTABLE DEVICES: DEVICE DEVICE UNIT NAME TYPE NUMBERS DU DSA 0-15 MU TK50 0 MS TS 0 ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER: AUTO - BOOT BOOTING FROM DEVICE 1 BOOT-U-CI/O error 000724 @ I played around and they both appear to default to the correct device numbers for Hard Drives. It gives me a *** DEVICE NOT IN SYSTEM *** if I try to access MU0 or MS0. Well, MU0 is no surprise, I know it doesn't have a TK50 in it, but I've no idea what the TS is, or how I would, or if I could boot from floppy. The 'C' in BOOT-U-CI/O error is actually a wierd c like character with a little squiggely under it. I'm assuming the first simply doesn't have an OS, and that the second has some sort of hardware problem, most likely a dead Hard Drive. I've tried to ensure that all the connections on both are good. I've learned that typing in 173000G at the @ prompt will get me back to the "ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER:" and that I can then specify a device instead of letting it go with it's own choice. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can do at this point? I'm guessing not much until I can scrounge an OS from somewhere. Is it possible to attach the RL02's from the /44 and see if I can boot off of those? What kind of a card does it take to interface with a RL02? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 21:51:44 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the >external hard drive, which >apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. This sounds like the Lisa 2/5, better open it up and see about removing the battery if it is, hope it doesn't have any problems from a leaky battery. I got mine just before the battery totally destroyed the boards, and I was able to clean up the mess. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jan 11 23:59:58 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com's message of Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:37:12 -0500 References: <199801111937.AA05890@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801120559.VAA04631@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Allison wrote: > < The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had > > The HP system predated it but, I may have the number wrong. It was > programmed in industrial BASIC. Allison, I'm really having trouble figuring out what you're thinking of. Even as far forward as 1975, the only HP systems I can think of that ran BASIC were minis. The 2100 and 2114 would have been the smallest of these, and both are boxes that really want to be in 19" racks but can be made to sit on tabletops and can be carried (I am certain that the 2100 has handles and think the 2114 does too). If carrying one doesn't convince you that it wants to be in a 19" rack or at least left sit I don't know what will. The closest thing I can think of is the HP 85, which is a fairly small and lightweight complete system, with keyboard, display, printer, and cartridge tape in the box. It was also "portable" in that you could get matching luggage for it. Next closest might be some of the 98xx calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. But all of this is late 1970s-1980 stuff. Maybe I'm just having a brain lapse? -Frank McConnell From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 11 23:38:27 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111213827.033cdca8@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:43 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >> first portable computer >> > >> >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a >> >> Well, if you believe the Smithsonian's "Museum of American History" and I >> believe DEC's advertising this goes to one of the PDP's, I don't remember >> which one. I don't think it was a -8 or -11, and it's been over four years >> since I was last to the museum so my memory isn't the best. They showed >> the computer being in the back of a convertible IIRC, and actually had the >> computer there at the musuem. Big sucker. > >Wasn't there a DEC ad showing a PDP-8 fitting in the trunk (boot, or is >that a hood or bonnet?) of a VW bug? Would that qualify it as portable? Don't know about that one, but the PDP-8/i was available in a (rarely seen) 'pedistal' configuration that would have been fairly easy to move around, and the PDP-8/e/f/m came in a 'desktop' configuration that even had handles on the side. (the 'major' qualification for something to be considered 'portable'). At about 90 pounds for the complete (core, no disks) configuration, it could be moved with minimal pain by two people... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 11 23:44:21 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111214421.033cc2e0@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:52 AM 1/11/98, you wrote: >At 04:38 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: >>> I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was >>> released in 1975. >> >>Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' >>to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) > > I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til >January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it >was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. Close, the Altair 8800 was introduced as the cover project in the January 1975 issue of Popular Electroncs. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 02:46:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112004221.2eef219c@ricochet.net> A busy weekend, actually. 1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: Atari Portfolio Radio Shack Model 100 Epson HX-20 NEC PC-8401a GRiD GRiDCase 3 NEC PC-8201A Apple Mac Portable Hewlett-Packard LS/12 Data General DG One Altima 2 IBM PC Radio Amstrad PPC640 Osborne 01 Compaq Portable 386 GRiD GRiDPad 1910 Hewlett-Packard 75D Amstrad PenPad PDA600 Panasonic Sr. Partner 2) Got them developed 3) bought a Land Rover (actually, 2) 4) wrote a system to automatically generate web pages for each of my computers based on simple data files. It uses 4 data files: Text, Resources, misc. Data, and Image list. There are a handful of template files used to build the actual web page. So all I have to do is come up with some text about the computer and lists of related links, images and specs to generate the web page. So, expect me to be asking about some of my systems in the near future. And, if anyone is interested in using this program, let me know. It's written in QBasic for DOS (Is that 10 years old?) but could probably be ported to just about anything. (In fact, I'll bet Perl or Cobol would be even better for some things.) You can see a sample of the layout it generates at . Note, the pics aren't there. I'd love to get any feedback anyone cares to offer. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From pcoad at wco.com Mon Jan 12 03:17:20 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SDK-85 manual wanted (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help this guy? Please respond directly to him. Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:12:00 +0100 From: Haering Martin To: Paul E Coad Subject: AW: Re: MCS-85 manual wanted Hello Paul, thank you very much for your quick respose. You're right, I'm german and I can see the problem with shipping. But I think we would find a solution there. But let me first tell you that my problem has changed now. I looked for the MCS-85 manual on my loft and - under a thick layer dust - i found it there. But instantly my next problem arised: I'm looking now for the SDK-85 manual. Even though the System Development Kit is described in the MCS-85 book, I need more detailed information to operate my old SDK board. Can you help me with this matter, too. I can see on several web pages, that some of your universities still use the MCS-85 and ask for the SDK manual for the lessons, but I can't get the manual itself over the net or any source to buy it. Now my question is: Do you have the SDK-85 manual for sale yourself or can you tell me a source or seller to get it? Thank you for your support in advance Martin ---------- From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 08:23:40 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes I did. It's an actual customer built LINC. It's in two or three pieces currently but he wanted to keep it. I tried but couldn't talk him out of it. Don't blame him. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > But what about the LINC? Did you see it? > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 20:21:21 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801120559.VAA04631@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <199801111937.AA05890@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111202121.457fb51c@intellistar.net> At 09:59 PM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >Allison wrote: >> < The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had >> > >> The HP system predated it but, I may have the number wrong. It was >> programmed in industrial BASIC. > >Allison, I'm really having trouble figuring out what you're thinking of. > >Even as far forward as 1975, the only HP systems I can think of that >ran BASIC were minis. The 2100 and 2114 would have been the smallest >of these, and both are boxes that really want to be in 19" racks but >can be made to sit on tabletops and can be carried (I am certain that >the 2100 has handles and think the 2114 does too). If carrying one >doesn't convince you that it wants to be in a 19" rack or at least >left sit I don't know what will. > >The closest thing I can think of is the HP 85, which is a fairly small >and lightweight complete system, with keyboard, display, printer, and >cartridge tape in the box. It was also "portable" in that you could >get matching luggage for it. Next closest might be some of the 98xx >calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like >calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. But all of this is late 1970s-1980 >stuff. He's got to be thinking of the HP 9800 series. I'm not sure when they first came out (1971, I think) but the HP Journal had an article about the 9810, 9820 and 9830 in the Dec. 1972 edition, I'm sitting here looking at a copy. I guess you could call them a PC but they're more like overgrown calculators. One line LED displays, etc. HP even called them calculators. You can go to "http://www.teleport.com/~dgh/hpmuseum.html" and find pictures and articles about them. The programming language is different in the different models but mainly they are a mix of HPL ( HP's version of APL, but without the strange characters) and BASIC. Joe > >Maybe I'm just having a brain lapse? > >-Frank McConnell > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 20:27:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980111214421.033cc2e0@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111202702.42577c52@intellistar.net> At 09:44 PM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 06:52 AM 1/11/98, you wrote: >>At 04:38 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: >>>> I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It >was >>>> released in 1975. >>> >>>Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' >>>to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) >> >> I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til >>January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it >>was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. > >Close, the Altair 8800 was introduced as the cover project in the January >1975 issue of Popular Electroncs. > >-jim OK maybe it was 1975. I have the magazine packed away and quit drooling over it years ago. I think the IBM still gets the nod since in was in full production and delivery while the Altair was still delivering incomplete bags of parts and even those were months behind. In fact, most Altair "kits" were delivered in installments spread over almost a year. You got parts for one section at a time. I DO have that ad handy. I should scan it and post it. Joe > >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 08:12:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121412.AA05850@world.std.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it >>fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet. >>Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though. > >Ah, what does it take to get it talking to Mac's and Amiga's? I'm assuming >if this can be done for the DEC Pro 350, I can do something simular with >the 11/73 or a VAX. Well, it takes DECnet networking software. For a while, my company made and sold a version of DECnet for the Amiga, a licensed port of the Mac DECnet called TSSnet from Thursby Software . I don't even have a copy any more, and I've long forgotten how to use it. You might be able to find a used copy. Don't even bother to ask Thursby for an Amiga version. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 22:09:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980112004221.2eef219c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111220911.2e47c346@intellistar.net> At 02:46 AM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >A busy weekend, actually. > >1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: > Atari Portfolio > Radio Shack Model 100 > Epson HX-20 > NEC PC-8401a > GRiD GRiDCase 3 > NEC PC-8201A > Apple Mac Portable > Hewlett-Packard LS/12 > Data General DG One > Altima 2 > IBM PC Radio > Amstrad PPC640 > Osborne 01 > Compaq Portable 386 > GRiD GRiDPad 1910 > Hewlett-Packard 75D > Amstrad PenPad PDA600 > Panasonic Sr. Partner Roger, I have a bunch of HP 75Ds. I also have the manuals for them. Let me know if you need any info about them. What is a HP LS/12 ? I've never heard of it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 22:24:34 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SDK-85 manual wanted (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111222434.2e47d5b6@intellistar.net> Hi, I don't have a SDK-85 but there is a section about it in the MCS80/85 Family User's manual. The part number for the SDK-85 User's Manual is 9800451. The manual says that you can order manuals from any Intel sales representative or directly from Intel. Let me know if you need their address. I have a MCS 80/85 with a lot of software and hardware including an EPROM burner, several ICE and four 8" floppy drives and a BIG pile of manuals if anyone is interested in it. It's located in Orlando, Florida. I hdon't have a list of what all is there but if you're looking for something specific, ask and I'll look for it. Joe At 01:17 AM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Can anyone help this guy? Please respond directly to him. > >Thanks, > >--pec >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:12:00 +0100 >From: Haering Martin >To: Paul E Coad >Subject: AW: Re: MCS-85 manual wanted > >Hello Paul, > >thank you very much for your quick respose. >You're right, I'm german and I can see the problem with shipping. But I >think we would find a solution there. >But let me first tell you that my problem has changed now. I looked for >the MCS-85 manual on my loft and - under a thick layer dust - i found it >there. But instantly my next problem arised: I'm looking now for the >SDK-85 manual. Even though the System Development Kit is described in >the MCS-85 book, I need more detailed information to operate my old SDK >board. >Can you help me with this matter, too. I can see on several web pages, >that some of your universities still use the MCS-85 and ask for the SDK >manual for the lessons, but I can't get the manual itself over the net >or any source to buy it. >Now my question is: Do you have the SDK-85 manual for sale yourself or >can you tell me a source or seller to get it? > >Thank you for your support in advance > >Martin > > ---------- > > From kevan at heydon.org Mon Jan 12 09:34:28 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (kevan@heydon.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SMS 1000 aka PDP-11/73 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199801121534.PAA27198@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > OK, I've powered on both of the systems with the PDP-11/73 processor boards > in it. I now know that they are apparently "SMS 1000" machines, but I've > been able to find nothing on it on the net, except for a web page that has > a picture of one in a 'tower' case > http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/collection/manufacturer-sms/1000.html > Mine is in a rack mount case though. That is my machine that I rescued from a skip. Hence the loose side panel caused by it being thrown into the skip. I do have some manuals for it if you are interested. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/collection/ From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 10:54:07 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801121412.AA05931@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The PDP-8i was pretty big and heavy. The 8e smaller and lighter but the When we loaded the 8is into the truck on Saturday, we left them upright (to keep cables from flopping around on the floor) and tied them off to the rails inside the truck. I tied off the two nice machines with the front panels and my assistant tied off the parts machine missing its front panel. I should have checked his knots. We went over to pick up an 11/34 (oh my GOD is it heavy! We were nearly killed.) and at a corner the one he tied off must have slipped out of his ropes (the guy was in the Army, you'd think he'd know how to tie a knot) and ******BOOOOOMMMMM******!!!! I thought someone was firing artillery. Unfortunately, I had to pull through the intersection to pull over and stop so when I took off....***wwwwwwhhhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrr BOOOOMMMMMMM*** as it must have rolled backwards and slammed into the door. *I* retied it after that! Never let someone who doesn't care about your computer collecting hobby do anything that might affect the safety of your items. They don't care and think of it as just junk so they won't think about what they're doing or try to protect your collectible. At any rate, I inspected it and it appears none the worse for the wear. But 8/is ARE heavy. You walk up to the machine and see the little normal size front panel and think "that's not so bad" but then you look inside and realize that that black door BENEATH the front panel is the actual computer. OOPS! > tiny one was the 8m as it didn't have as many slots nor the heavier power > supply needed to power it, it was shorter in depth. The 8m was in the 50 > pound range as I remember. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 11:03:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the > >external hard drive, which > >apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. > > This sounds like the Lisa 2/5, better open it up and see about removing the > battery if it is, hope it doesn't have any problems from a leaky battery. > I got mine just before the battery totally destroyed the boards, and I was > able to clean up the mess. Actually, it was sitting next to me on the seat in the truck and, at a stoplight, I opened it up. The batteries look ok so I'll replace them immediately. Anthony From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 09:56:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121556.AA09444@world.std.com> < He's got to be thinking of the HP 9800 series. I'm not sure when the I gotta get that sex change. It happens it's MS Allison and I don't have the problem of the wife objecting. Anyhow 9800 series it was most likely as when I'd seen it it was not new and I was doing 8008 design when that part was $180 each! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 09:56:22 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121556.AA09558@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111230802.464fd44e@intellistar.net> Allison, At 09:12 AM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > ><1975 issue of Popular Electroncs. > >Back in those days the January 1975 issues was recieved by mid december at >the latest. I know as the cover of my issue has the last of MITS numbers >and a $1300 total and a mailing date in december 1974. > What do you mean "the last of MITS numbers and a $1300 total" ? >Also the machine on the cover bore only a resemblance to the production >machine as it was a proto. That's my point. The IBM was already being produced at that point and being delivered shortly thereafter. Altair was still using the prototype machine and just starting to sell bags of parts as "kits". Joe > >ALlison > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 12 10:49:27 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Free System/36 Message-ID: <9800128846.AA884652716@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > actually, what i meant by the power-user comment was a person who is > not afraid to use a black-and-white command prompt if it can help > him/her do something. So, would a System/36 be good for me? If you don't mind learning OCL (the minicomputer version of JCL) and typing all the // commands at the command line of a text only terminal (probably green rather than black and white :-) ) then yes, give it a go. But first find out what size it is. There were desktops (5364), desk side (5362) and huge monsters (5360) plus some others (odd numbers) (after my time). The 5360 had a version of my favourite diskette drive, but I have spouted at length on this list about this in previous posts... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 12 10:52:52 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Paperclip (Was: Re: Free IBM system 36) Message-ID: <9800128846.AA884652889@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Speaking of paperclip... I may have found the ROMs for both Paperclip and > Visicalc on the PET computers. Does anyone know what EPROM would fit the > ROM sockets in a PET? I've tried crossing the numbers on the ROMs and > can't learn anything. Does anyone have a schematic of a PET mainboard? 2732 on practically all PETs. Early ones (ROM=6540) had no spare sockets Early ones (ROM=2316) also had no spare sockets, but could take 2716 chips in place of the system ROMs Late ones (Model = 8296) had some sockets that could take 28-pin 2764s, but I think all the spare sockets were 24 pin for 2332 and 2732. HTH Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 12 11:02:19 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800128846.AA884653426@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to >>> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel >>> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit >>> shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to >>> Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: >>> A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) We've also had some strange definitions of Personal Computer flying around here. One I don't like, but am going to comment on anyway, is the "system, terminal and video circuitry all in one box" definition. I don't think it quite makes it, but personal loyalty compels me to put in a word for the Tektronix 4051. This was announced in November 1975 (I think - have to look this up). I've never seen one but I get the impression the prototype was a Tek graphics terminal with a 6800 development system stuck in the bottom of the case... Anyway, Tek 4051 was intended as single user, one-to-a-desk graphics micro, so I claim it is a "personal computer". And if you're interested in portability, a carrying case was an option you could buy. When did 6800 start shipping anyway? Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 12:35:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121835.AA27487@world.std.com> <>the latest. I know as the cover of my issue has the last of MITS number <>and a $1300 total and a mailing date in december 1974. <> < What do you mean "the last of MITS numbers and a $1300 total" ? No not quite, it was the first of the line if anything and early on to boot as I had it in my hands by January 15! Last was supposed to be list. < That's my point. The IBM was already being produced at that point and I have my 11/23 (The DEQNA isn't in it yet, it has RT-11 v5.04 on it, I kermitted over the distribution, followed the directions in in readme.txt, and did @sysgen. Then I had to go to class. (The 23 is at school) I came back an hour later to the . prompt (No error messages) So, I followed the rest of the directions, put everything on the DU0: (10MB EDSI drive on a QD21) and modifed BOS11 for my config (Commented the QNA driver, added RX02 lines as per the example in some other config), renmaed it to BOS1 and built that. No errors. Put that on the DU0: Now, I do RUN BOS1 and it sits there. Doesn't halt, just sits. It's been sitting 20 minutes, what did I do wrong? Oh, and I fudged, the drive is 120MB. I'm using MM to send mail, so I can't go change it. RT-11 seems to work just fine, btw. I boot from rt11XM normally, but to load fuzzball I did BOOT RT11SJ, then ran it. Not enough memory to do it under XM. Anything else I'm supposed to do? ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 12 02:01:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800128846.AA884653426@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980112020146.2ddf648c@intellistar.net> Phillip said: > >Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the >AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all >solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented >on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) Ahhh, a Casio expert! When was the Casio AS-8D made? I just picked one up. I had never seen one before and I thought it looked interesting. > >We've also had some strange definitions of Personal Computer flying >around here. One I don't like, but am going to comment on anyway, is >the "system, terminal and video circuitry all in one box" definition. I >don't think it quite makes it, but personal loyalty compels me to put in >a word for the Tektronix 4051. This was announced in November 1975 (I >think - have to look this up). I've never seen one but I get the >impression the prototype was a Tek graphics terminal with a 6800 >development system stuck in the bottom of the case... Anyway, Tek 4051 >was intended as single user, one-to-a-desk graphics micro, so I claim it >is a "personal computer". > >And if you're interested in portability, a carrying case was an option >you could buy. I was just reading an old (ca 1977) Byte magazine this morning and it had a article about the Tek 4051. I think they said it had just been discontinued. E-mail me if you're interested. Joe > From ZGE at aol.com Mon Jan 12 12:57:14 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Trainers Message-ID: <442c47ed.34ba678b@aol.com> Does anyone have information on a 4-bit microcomputer called the KX-33B . Back in 1979 , with the purchase of a Pet computer you could have received the kx-33b for free from Ancrona . Also I am looking for information on a programmable digital computer that NRI schools offered during the 70's . The front panel of the unit appeared to have sixteen rows of on\off switches for machine code entry . I am guessing that the kit utilized possibly a couple of 7489's for ram . Also any info on units that had similar 16x4 or 16x8 machine entry would be appreciated . thanks, Frank From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 12 13:32:22 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980112020146.2ddf648c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > Phillip said: > > > >Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the > >AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all > >solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented > >on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) > > Ahhh, a Casio expert! When was the Casio AS-8D made? I just picked one > up. I had never seen one before and I thought it looked interesting. > > > > > >We've also had some strange definitions of Personal Computer flying > >around here. One I don't like, but am going to comment on anyway, is > >the "system, terminal and video circuitry all in one box" definition. I > >don't think it quite makes it, but personal loyalty compels me to put in > >a word for the Tektronix 4051. This was announced in November 1975 (I > >think - have to look this up). I've never seen one but I get the > >impression the prototype was a Tek graphics terminal with a 6800 > >development system stuck in the bottom of the case... Anyway, Tek 4051 > >was intended as single user, one-to-a-desk graphics micro, so I claim it > >is a "personal computer". > > > >And if you're interested in portability, a carrying case was an option > >you could buy. > > I was just reading an old (ca 1977) Byte magazine this morning and it > had a article about the Tek 4051. I think they said it had just been > discontinued. E-mail me if you're interested. > > Joe More likely superceded by the 4052, which used a bit-slice processor rather than the MC6800 that the 4051 used. There were some other minor improvements also, as I recall. The 4051 might also qualify for the race of an early personal computer if its $10,000 cost doesn't put it out. It was programmed in the nicest BASIC that I have ever run across! Marvellous vector graphics. But SLOOOOOW! The real queen, though, was the 4053 with its 19" (17"?) screen! - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 12 14:00:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video > > output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed > > at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your > > own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ > > was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few > > months. > > When did the Sphere-1s start shipping? My boards have 1975 dates on them. > The Sphere-1s were also integrated systems, with a standard setup having > the 6800 CPU board, a video board, 16K RAM, and a serial interface board. Yeah, but none of them ever worked. (I know this is an exageration). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From pvhp at forte.com Mon Jan 12 14:37:00 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9801122037.AA07744@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Firsts Allison J Parent wrote: !<> >First programable calc !<> !<> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goe !<> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the in !<> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bi ! !No, this was not the first by a long means. I vaguely remember a desktop !HP job that was years earlier. ! !There were designs that were RTL and utililogic and even earlier designs !that were about the size of a desk drawer that were both totally !electronic and to some extent programable. A complete braino on my part: I had wanted to say some like either "first LSI electronic calc" or perhaps "first microprocessor application". Sorry I goofed. As you pointed out in this and a subsequent post there were many "solid state electronic" calculators available by 1971. Hey, for that matter IBM's S/360 shipped transistorized general purpose transistorized computers (running DOS and TOS among others) by 1964, and by 1971 they were even beginning to incorporate integrated circuitry into what would become S/370 computers. Interestingly the architecture (or its modern desecndant) was not put on a single microprocessor until just a few years ago (1995 saw the 3490 CMOS mainframe on a chip). I would not for a moment call these devices mere calculators though (despite the early reluctance of IBM's marketing department to call things like the 701 a "computer" for fear of upsetting the folks employed in that occupation in the 1950's). Peter Prymmer From pvhp at forte.com Mon Jan 12 15:59:26 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> Hi, I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas I don't have the magazine with me here and I cannot recall what the show title is - or even whether it is part of a regular series. At any rate I thought folks on this list would be interested so go out and check your local listings. Peter Prymmer From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 12 14:22:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800128846.AA884653426@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 12, 98 05:02:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1809 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980112/752ca8ed/attachment.ksh From jchin at aesprodata.com.au Mon Jan 12 18:17:54 1998 From: jchin at aesprodata.com.au (jchin@aesprodata.com.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <4825658B.0001586E.00@aesper_ln01.aesprodata.com.au> If any of you in the US gets to see this program, would you care to publish a short summary of any interesting bits? It's highly unlikely that this will be shown in Australia in the near future. cheers, John > I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for > an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on > PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas > I don't have the magazine with me here and I cannot recall what > the show title is - or even whether it is part of a regular series. > At any rate I thought folks on this list would be interested so > go out and check your local listings. > Peter Prymmer From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 19:38:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11/84 Successfully Retrieved!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 11/84 is now waiting to enter the garage where it will be stripped of unnecessary weight before being moved to the basement. I was out working on it and nearly froze my butt off. I tried putting off the retrieval but couldn't convince the previous owners to delay. They did suggest that they might give me or sell me cheaply a MicroVax II and a TS-05 tape drive in the near future. I'll never be bored again. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 12 14:20:46 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980108100638.2a5ff33e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801130116.UAA23354@mail.cgocable.net> > At 03:25 PM 1/7/98 +0000, you wrote: > >Which is preferable: Hock the offer to half of that $40 as agreed > >on to "whip" for being liar? I can't see him bec he's away for his > >doc appt til Friday. > > $40 imo is a pretty good price for a PS/2 70 lunchbox (if that's what it > is). Even with 2/60. I've got 8/60 in mine, and it works okay. > Doublespaced, iirc, with Win3.1 loaded. Memory is available, though not > always cheap. Well, this specs is for that desktop model 70-E61 and $40 seems bit high and I was bit cheated by seller claiming it has 4mb/80mb for $40 and uses older type 1 motherboard (huge) and was asking here for opinions as I will talk to seller again. Yes, I did open the case to look. This was delayed by the ice storm that caused our power grid to kick the bucket and stayed that way for 4 days til today. Hee hee...this is desktop which is called model 70 and the portable lunchbox is P70 which uses 386 either 16 or 20mhz (ahem...sleepy performance and no cache.) The P75 is also lunchbox in same way BUT, it's real, honest 486DX 33 machine with scsi interface and plasma display to boot. That is one I would like to have. Often, could fool the PS/2 machines that uses 72pin simms by changing those 4 "SMD" resistor jumpers with a proper setting from a table. But bear in mind, those machines requires parity memory. Jason D. From gzozman at escape.ca Mon Jan 12 19:14:54 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> Message-ID: <34BAC00E.7352@escape.ca> Found it! Its called "Into the Future", and will air at 9:00 Central time on PPTV (Prairie Public TV), Jan 13. I'm not sure if this is a national station or not, but their primary market area is North/South Dakota and Minnesota. The show runs 1hr, and is summarized as follows: "Questioning how the human record, stored digitally, will survive into the future." Happy viewing... Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca Peter Prymmer wrote: > > Hi, > > I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for > an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on > PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas > I don't have the magazine with me here and I cannot recall what > the show title is - or even whether it is part of a regular series. > At any rate I thought folks on this list would be interested so > go out and check your local listings. > > Peter Prymmer From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 20:36:04 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And now...ladies and gentleman...the contents of the first 3 boxes from the PDP-8/i acquisition....drum roll please.... Two switch covers from ASR-33s with clear buttons labelled REL., UNLOCK, B.SP. and LOCK "ON". A flip chip labelled M706. 2 Applied Magnetics Corp. disk drive heads in the box. Digital spares PN 12-09169-00 (10/21/82) 10 pcs (2 bags) containing lights like in the PDP-8 front panel. Several flip chips M633, R107, W998, M206, M102, M112, another M633, A613, another M206, another M102, M100, and A704. Several boxes of paper tape containing assorted programs for the PDP-8 (apparently bug free...I can't stand dead icky bugs or their remains). Two blue plastic boxes containing OS/8 and all the tools etc that DEC shipped like PAL, etc. More documentation for the ASR33. Woo hoo! =-) And much MUCH more! I won't bother you with the details...just wanted to share some of the fun. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > I now have in my possession three PDP-8/Is (only around 4000 were > produced) from Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri! They are in > reasonably crusty condition, having been stored in a garage for 10 years > or more, but appear to be all there. > > One has no peripherals, one has a DecTape drive and another has the > high-speed paper tape reader. The machine with the DecTape, which is > apparently a Posibus machine, has a custom interface built out of DEC > Building Blocks modules...ALOT of them and is very nifty. > > I expect restoration to occupy months or years but is, nevertheless, > quite probable. > > In addition, I received a PDP-11/34 without programmers console (just the > plain boot switch console) with an RK05f and an RK05j. It is > tremendously heavy and my assistant and I were nearly (quite literally) > crushed in our attempts to get it on the truck. Our spotter did not > inform of us a dip in the concrete and it tipped backward on us with only > our spotter giving us the necessary force, at the last moment, to lift it > back up. It was highly unpleasant. > > I received several boxes of flip-chips, manuals (LOTS of manuals), tech > sheets, blank paper tape still in the box and other items that I haven't > had an opportunity to explore. The boxes were stored in a basement so > there's a fair amount of water damage and a LOVELY musty odor (woo hoo). =-) > > I also received an Teletype ASR-33, for which I have manuals fortunately, > in fairly crustated condition. Someone left a tape in the mechanism and, > through the years of being stored in a basement, it has become yellowed, > brittle and has adhered to the unit. > > Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the > external hard drive, which > apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. > > I'll have pictures and information on the website at > http://www.retrocomputing.com as soon as I get them unloaded and situated. > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 12 19:55:32 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd1fc6$54d6c970$0100007f@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 2:40 AM Subject: What I did this weekend >A busy weekend, actually. > >1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: > Amstrad PPC640 I didn't know these were available in the US. I just hauled one back (PPC512) from France last week and I thought that I had a very original portable (even though it got pretty heavy waiting for customs;) Were there any other of the Amstrad marketted in the US like the CPC series? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 12 19:55:54 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BAC00E.7352@escape.ca> References: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> <34BAC00E.7352@escape.ca> Message-ID: <34bbc90a.21520768@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:14:54 -0600, you said: >Found it! > >Its called "Into the Future", and will air at 9:00 Central time on PPTV "Into the Future" is on here (Oklahoma) tomorrow at 9:00on our PBS station. I seldom watch TV but I'll try to catch it. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 12 08:54:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd1fc6$54d6c970$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980112085457.537f7b7c@intellistar.net> At 07:55 PM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Uncle Roger >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 2:40 AM >Subject: What I did this weekend > > >>A busy weekend, actually. >> >>1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: >> Amstrad PPC640 >I didn't know these were available in the US. I just hauled one back >(PPC512) from France last week and I thought that I had a very original >portable (even though it got pretty heavy waiting for customs;) >Were there any other of the Amstrad marketted in the US like the CPC series? I don't what a CPC series is but the PC-1386s were sold here. I bought one new. I have also seen a lot of Amstrad notebook type machines, non-DOS I believe. Joe >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 12 20:13:20 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> This sounds like the Lisa 2/5, better open it up and see about removing the >> battery if it is, hope it doesn't have any problems from a leaky battery. >> I got mine just before the battery totally destroyed the boards, and I was >> able to clean up the mess. > >Actually, it was sitting next to me on the seat in the truck and, at a >stoplight, I opened it up. The batteries look ok so I'll replace them >immediately. Glad to hear they look OK. I probably should have added that it's my understanding that this problem is the most severe on the 2/5. Also probably safest to just leave them out. It'll run just fine without the battery. IIRC about all that does is keep the date and time, but then you can never again have a valid date anyway since 1995 is long gone :^) And people worry about the year 2000 problem, that's how you tell that they don't own a Lisa :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 12 19:39:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Tech. manual (was: help with TRS-80 Model II?) References: <34b952d9.13571571@mail.tgis.co.uk> <33F1E2D1.C6A0958B@navix.net> Message-ID: <34BAC5E6.97B80AFE@cnct.com> Cord Coslor wrote: > > I have a TRS-80 technical manual... any interest. Which one? The many models through the several TRS-80 product lines generated quite a few. The Model II under discussion had a manual in a heavy brown binder, the Model I was a black spiral-bound paperback, the Model III had a light brown perfect-bound paperback. Check the date on your system or your ISP's. Somehow this message showed up with a sending date of last Aug 13. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 12 20:21:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts References: Message-ID: <34BACFA3.AF8BA7B9@cnct.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > We went over to pick up an 11/34 (oh my GOD is it heavy! We were nearly > killed.) and at a corner the one he tied off must have slipped out of his > ropes (the guy was in the Army, you'd think he'd know how to tie a knot) > and ******BOOOOOMMMMM******!!!! I thought someone was firing artillery. > Unfortunately, I had to pull through the intersection to pull over and > stop so when I took off....***wwwwwwhhhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrr BOOOOMMMMMMM*** > as it must have rolled backwards and slammed into the door. You don't learn to tie knots in the Army. You learn to tie knots in the Boy Scouts. Under adult supervision, which the Army doesn't have. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 12 20:41:23 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> Message-ID: >I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for >an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on >PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas I just checked, unfortunatly Oregon Public Broadcasting is running something different. They have some special five day series they're running this week. Don't know if they'll be showing it later. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:45:52 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184205.492fdf20@ricochet.net> >those "encryption standards" last summer.... wiped out any chance of brain >activity in DC, outside of businesses.... Was there any brain activity before that? 8^) Well, one thing that is often forgotten is that the internet (or arpanet or something) was developed so that the US DOD could have a computer network that wouldn't die if one node when down. Which, of course, can be used against the feds, should they try and censor things. There's no reason I couldn't set up a server in a closet which, at a special, pre-arranged time, would call a server in, say, Portland to pick up the mail that was collected by calling a server in vancouver, etc. (Anyone ever heard of Fido?) Unfortunately, we (in the US) would lose a lot of what has made the 'net indispensable for a lot of people. Singapore censors stuff coming in via the mail (dunno about the 'net); we might very well end up the same way, if they really screw things up (cut off from the freedom-loving world.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184244.492fe32e@ricochet.net> At 11:13 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >a 'Zorba CPM' (some sort of Kaypro clone, apparently). All was in good, if > >When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro >2000, and DG One I saw. (: AAaaarrrggghhh! I *really* want an HP IPC! And a Kaypro 2000! And a Zorba! I think if I didn't already have a DG One, I'd have to come up there and steal them from y'all.... 8^) Btw: Modular Micros Zorba 7 7" CRT 2 410K floppies 22lbs In prod. by '84 $1595 Modular Micros Zorba 2000 9" CRT 2 820K Floppies (10M HD avail) 25 lbs. in prod. by '84 ~$2000 --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:07 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184220.492f30ca@ricochet.net> At 10:41 PM 1/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to >a Win95 system running Word97. About 3 seconds on my Starlet. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184253.492fe22e@ricochet.net> At 06:51 AM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >What are the firsts? Here are my guesses... >first portable computer Probably the STM Systems BABY! 1, ca. 08/1976 >first laptop MCM Computers System 700, Model 782 APL, ca. 12/1977 >first GUI Xerox whatevertheycalledit? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> > Personal Computer: IBM called the 5100 a personal computer and also a >portable computer. I think they called it a personal computer since it did Announced 9/9/75 according to Haddock. He also mentions a "Geniac" ca. 1956: "Sold primarily as a toy, this type of machine was arguably the first electronic digital personal computer." And in '71, "The Busicom desktop electronic calculator, based on the new Intel 4004, was introduced. This was the first computing device to employ a microprocessor." 1973 saw the Scelbi 8H, and 1974 saw the Mark 8. Also in '74, Xerox came up with the Alto which could make a bid for the first personal computer. 1975 was the year of the Altair 8800 (ann. january) and the Processor Technology SOL (April). Later MOS Tech came out with the KIM-1. > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:50 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184303.492f5b2a@ricochet.net> At 09:31 AM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) >own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ I think you mean the Apple 1. >> first portable computer > >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a >PDP-8 across a bridge some years ago. She got funny looks, but she >"ported" her computer elsewhere. However, I believe this one goes to the >IBM 5100. However, did I hear grumblings of something portable pre-dating >even the 5100? Like something from HP in the early 70s? I think if you consider the 5100 a portable, then so should you consider the PDP-8. The 5100, while more *convenient* to move, perhaps, than, say, an Altair, is hardly all that portable. It's listed as 50lbs (a stretch even for me) and has no handle. You tell me how that's a portable? (It's much like a TRS-80 Model III, only flatter. I think the III is lighter though.) I vote for the STM Baby. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:47:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184312.492f8fae@ricochet.net> At 01:39 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >When did the Sphere-1s start shipping? My boards have 1975 dates on them. >The Sphere-1s were also integrated systems, with a standard setup having >the 6800 CPU board, a video board, 16K RAM, and a serial interface board. Haddock says 1975, no month. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:56 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184308.492f9eb4@ricochet.net> >>> first personal computer (I think I know that one) >> >>output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed > > I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was >released in 1975. Sol-20 -- introduced April, 1975 --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 12 20:56:56 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <34BAD7F8.74594A68@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I > >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one > >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could > >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't > >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected > > No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! Ah, c'mon. You can rent a forklift lots of places. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From william at ans.net Mon Jan 12 21:05:16 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980112184303.492f5b2a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > I think if you consider the 5100 a portable, then so should you consider the > PDP-8. The 5100, while more *convenient* to move, perhaps, than, say, an > Altair, is hardly all that portable. It's listed as 50lbs (a stretch even > for me) and has no handle. You tell me how that's a portable? (It's much > like a TRS-80 Model III, only flatter. I think the III is lighter though.) > > I vote for the STM Baby. Even if the implementation may be poor (ie. no handles), I think IBM really did try to make the thing truely portable. After all, all you needed to do was lug around _one_ 50 pound box to do useful things, rather than a processor plus a tube or printer, and perhaps an external power unit. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jan 12 17:55:00 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work. Message-ID: <000301bd1fd1$992051e0$54987c0a@office1> Well, let no one tell you that size doesn't matter. Last night I was thinking about how I went about replacing the foam in my RK05 drives. The only thing that I changed was the foam. I disconnect no wires. So, I thought that maybe platter speed may be effected by air volume. The foam on the cartridge air inlet was about 3/32" thicker than the old foam. This difference was enough to reduce the air volume into the disk pack (there is a little bump on the air inlet that pushes a door open on the pack). The extra foam I guess did not allow the door to open enough. This lack of air produces enough drag on the motor spindle to stall the motor. Mystery solved. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From william at ans.net Mon Jan 12 21:26:28 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9801122037.AA07744@forte.com> Message-ID: > As you pointed out in this and a subsequent post there were many "solid state > electronic" calculators available by 1971. Hey, for that matter IBM's S/360 > shipped transistorized general purpose transistorized computers (running DOS > and TOS among others) by 1964, and by 1971 they were even beginning to > incorporate integrated circuitry into what would become S/370 computers. > Interestingly the architecture (or its modern desecndant) was not put on a > single microprocessor until just a few years ago (1995 saw the 3490 CMOS > mainframe on a chip). This is mostly because of the need for speed in an very complex system. They probably could not have put a S/360 implemenation on one chip and still get decent performance until recently. There is quite a bit of extra circuitry in the big IBMs that nobody ever sees - mostly in the redundancy and error checking realms missing in microprocessors. For example, the memory interface for the older (and probably the newer, as well) RS/6000s has SECDED error handling, memory scrubbing, and faulty bit substitution all built in. AS/400s are the same way. In the mainframe line, this philosophy goes even further, with things like parity on internal busses. In other words, it is no suprise that a 3081 (ca. 1983) is implemented using over a thousand gate arrays. The amazing thing is that IBM was able to get all of those _hot_ chips working in such a small space (about a cubic foot, maybe two). Yes, I lust for a S/360 or 370, and would even settle for a 3033 or 3081. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Jan 12 21:30:12 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yeah, but none of them ever worked. (I know this is an exageration). No far off, judging from some of the kludges needed to get them to work. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 12 23:16:03 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd1fe2$58084990$3b69420c@magnum> The CPC's were the first Amstrads that I know of, they were commercialized in Europe. They are basically just a Keyboar type computer that plugs into a monitor they also had an integrated tape player for the earlier models and a 3 1/2" drive for the later models (before the PC compatibles). I don't remember the exact number but I think that the CPC6128 was the last of the series. > I don't what a CPC series is but the PC-1386s were sold here. I bought >one new. I have also seen a lot of Amstrad notebook type machines, non-DOS >I believe. > > Joe > >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Francois Auradon. >>Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon >> >> > From pcoad at wco.com Mon Jan 12 23:45:12 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I > >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one > >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could > >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't > >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected > > No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! > Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. (It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines in the room: NEC PC-8201A - no handle NEC Starlet - no handle Epson PX-8 - handle AT&T 3B1 - no handle Sun 3/60 - no handle Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a machine is portable. It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". Where I could pickup the 3B1 and take it into work with me everyday, I have a difficult time believing that this is what AT&T expected. Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From pvhp at forte.com Tue Jan 13 00:14:00 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <9801130614.AA20936@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot I wrote: >I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for >an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on >PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas OK I have the magazine: there is a Review (not an advert) on page 110 of the Jan 1998 issue of Sci. Am. The television program will be: "Into the Future: On the Preservation of Knowledge in the Electronic Age" A film by Terry Sanders, narrated by Robert MacNeil; American Film Foundation, 1997; Airing January 13 on PBS. I do not know much about the "American Film Foundation" but MacNeil is a PBS regular and PBS quite often offers transcipts and tapes for sale at the end of many (but not all) of their broadcasts. While I have several CRTs for use as monitors I do not own a television tuner or a VCR. (I also note that the schedule posted at http://www.kqed.org/ implies that the main Bay Area PBS broadcaster will not be showing Into the Future.) Could folks who do manage to see it please post a message regarding whether there is an address to which one could write to obtain transcripts/tapes? Thanks. Peter Prymmer From engine at chac.org Mon Jan 12 20:50:49 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980112185049.01003380@pop.batnet.com> At 18:13 1/12/98 -0800, Zane wrote: >....IIRC about all [the battery] does is keep the date and time, but then you >can never again have a valid date anyway since 1995 is long gone :^) And >people worry about the year 2000 problem, that's how you tell that they >don't own a Lisa :^) Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? TIA, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 13 00:40:51 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980112185049.01003380@pop.batnet.com> References: < Message-ID: Kip Crosby wrote: >Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? >How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? Yeah, pretty amazing isn't it. Now that's what I call planned obsolecence! My Lisa 2/5 works great once I figured out in what order to turn everything on. One slight problem the date will be wrong, the whole time I own it. I don't know the technical reasons behind it, and I may be off +/- a year in the 1995 bit. Really shocked me when I got it and started researching the computer. Now I kind of consider it a cool little fact. Doesn't really cause any problems, and I'm told none of the software will print out reports with the wrong date because of it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 13 00:50:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright >Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. >(It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 >does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines >in the room: On the more modern systems not having handles is a good thing. I've got a "Twinhead Superlap 386sx" (made in 1990, not quite classic), which at one point I'd loaned to my Mom. Seeing that it had a handle, she decided it would be a good way to pick it up (something I'd never had the guts to try). Thankfully she didn't get it over the floor before the handle snaped and if fell back to the table. What really amazed me was she managed to get a new handle out of Twinhead, and this was '93. Now I use the laptop as a easy to store VT100 :^) Let's face it, not everything is built like a Kaypro! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Tue Jan 13 02:32:41 1998 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: TEXAS INSTRIMENTS TI99/4A Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980113083241.00674860@vader.kootenay.net> Hello this is my first post to the list hopefully it's ok:-) I have a ti99/4a if anyone wants it, for the cost of shipping. I live in British Columbia Canada. If anyone is interested please let me know Chris Halarewich (chrish@knet.kootenay.net) From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 04:42:19 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884717068@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Peter Prymmer wrote: > incorporate integrated circuitry into what would become S/370 computers. > Interestingly the architecture (or its modern desecndant) was not put on a > single microprocessor until just a few years ago (1995 saw the 3490 CMOS > mainframe on a chip). I would not for a moment call these devices mere Are you sure? I remember when I was at IBM the PC/370 was available - this would have been 1985-86 or possibly summer 1987. I believe this was based on the 68000 circuitry with different microcode. Tony, what date is your little 370-alike? And how many chips? Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 05:22:45 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884719411@compsci.powertech.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: > is implemented using over a thousand gate arrays. The amazing thing is > that IBM was able to get all of those _hot_ chips working in such a > small space (about a cubic foot, maybe two). > > Yes, I lust for a S/360 or 370, and would even settle for a 3033 or 3081. Me too! But I think a 4381, say or even a 9370, would be easier to work on. Why? The 308X and 3090 (and I think also the 303X, although I know less about them) were _water cooled_. Maybe I am biassed as an electrical engineer, but I think that anything with water in it is bound to make a mess sooner or later... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 05:41:52 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884720668@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> Phillip said: >> > >> >Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the >> >AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all >> >solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented >> >on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) >> >> Ahhh, a Casio expert! When was the Casio AS-8D made? I just picked one >> up. I had never seen one before and I thought it looked interesting. Alas, I am not a Casio expert. I merely happen to have an AL1000, an FX-502P and an FX-601P, FWIW. What is the AS-8D? Can you describe it to us? >> I was just reading an old (ca 1977) Byte magazine this morning and it >> had a article about the Tek 4051. I think they said it had just been >> discontinued. E-mail me if you're interested. >> >> Joe > > More likely superceded by the 4052, which used a bit-slice processor > rather than the MC6800 that the 4051 used. There were some other minor > improvements also, as I recall. I cannot remember the exact date the 4051 was discontinued, although I have it somewhere at home, but it was a couple of years after the introduction of the 4052. 1982? 1977 does sound more like the announcement of the 4052 and 4054, I must admit. Yes please, Joe, I am indeed interested in the Byte article. > The 4051 might also qualify for the race of an early personal computer if > its $10,000 cost doesn't put it out. It was programmed in the nicest BASIC > that I have ever run across! Marvellous vector graphics. But SLOOOOOW! > The real queen, though, was the 4053 with its 19" (17"?) screen! I think I'd disagree with you here, Don. The 4051 was announced with a price tag of (I think) $6999 for the base spec. (Might have been $7999). It went down in price very rapidly - the top spec machine was only $5250 or something when it was eventually discontinued. But I meant "personal" not in the sense of "personally owned" but in the sense of "intended to go on/at someone's desk for their personal use" - and I was commenting on the "all in one box" definition someone had proposed earlier. The 4051 BASIC is AWFUL. Example: the syntax of the IF statement is IF condition THEN line number. Similarly the 4052 and 4054. The really nice version came with the 4052A and 4054A in (?) 1982. This was achieved AFAICT by freeing up ROM space from GPIB handling routines - the upgrade was new ROMS plus a new I/O board that had a proper GPIB controller chip on it. I've never heard of the 4053. Are you sure you don't mean the 4054? This did have a 19 inch screen. Yes, I too would love a 4054A. But I have to be content with my 4052, which is also a nice machine. But as you say, the graphics are SLOW. (Faster on the 4054 which had constant rate vector drawing rather than constant time. But that's another story). I shall look up some of the above details when I get home - I did a talk on the 4050 series recently and the notes are still on my Microscribe - and post corrections if I made any glaring errors... Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 06:08:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date Message-ID: <199801131208.AA13782@world.std.com> Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? <>How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? < Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113085811.4fdf3316@intellistar.net> That sounds like the machines that I've seen. They're fairly common around hamfests and other sales. If you're interested in them let me know which ones you want and an idea of what they'e worth and I'll see about picking them up. Joe At 11:16 PM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >The CPC's were the first Amstrads that I know of, they were commercialized >in Europe. >They are basically just a Keyboar type computer that plugs into a monitor >they also had an integrated tape player for the earlier models and a 3 1/2" >drive for the later models (before the PC compatibles). I don't remember the >exact number but I think that the CPC6128 was the last of the series. > >> I don't what a CPC series is but the PC-1386s were sold here. I bought >>one new. I have also seen a lot of Amstrad notebook type machines, non-DOS >>I believe. >> >> Joe >> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>Francois Auradon. >>>Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon >>> >>> >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 09:05:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113090554.53c7469e@intellistar.net> At 09:45 PM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > >> > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I >> >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one >> >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could >> >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't >> >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected >> >> No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! Hey, I didn't say it was portable! I own one remember (grunt!). That's what IBM said! IBM also said that it was a "personal computer", but I wonder how many people could afford a $15,000 computer in 1975! (or '76, '77, '78 etc etc) Joe >> >Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright >Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. >(It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 >does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines >in the room: > >NEC PC-8201A - no handle >NEC Starlet - no handle >Epson PX-8 - handle >AT&T 3B1 - no handle >Sun 3/60 - no handle > >Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a >machine is portable. > >It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built >to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved >to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". >Where I could pickup the 3B1 and take it into work with me everyday, I >have a difficult time believing that this is what AT&T expected. > Yeah, my HP-41 doesn't have a handle ether! >Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. That says it all! Joe > >--pec >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 09:51:53 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: help In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980113083241.00674860@vader.kootenay.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113095153.416fa6ca@intellistar.net> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 10:08:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800138847.AA884720668@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113100855.416f6fd2@intellistar.net> > >I cannot remember the exact date the 4051 was discontinued, although I >have it somewhere at home, but it was a couple of years after the >introduction of the 4052. 1982? 1977 does sound more like the >announcement of the 4052 and 4054, I must admit. > >Yes please, Joe, I am indeed interested in the Byte article. Send me your address and I'll copy it and send it to you. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 10:13:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date In-Reply-To: <199801131208.AA13782@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113101356.425f6062@intellistar.net> At 07:08 AM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: > ><>Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? ><>How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? >< > >The most common cause its that the date(year) is only stored as a single >digit and it's added to the date of creation of the system. This is very >common! For some systems this is a two digit number but at 2000 it rolls >around to 1900. FYI the common PDP-8 OS OS/8 happens to also have this >problem every 7 years for using only three bits for the year portion of >the date. > > >Allison Wow, sounds like they get to solve the year 2000 problem every seven years :-/ Joe > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 09:57:28 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884735968@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > > 20 IF A=5 THEN 100 > > That is standard Dartmouth BASIC! at least it has been since 1969 when I > started programming with it. I see. I can never remember which features were original, which later. Most modern basics allow IF condition THEN line number, but also allow IF condition THEN statement, which is usually more useful, and forbidden on the Tek (which is what I was getting at). The original BASIC, IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong!) had a lot of useful array-handling commands, most of which remain on the IBM System/23 (Datamaster), and a few of which remain on the Tek, but which all disappeared in the home computer BASICs (mostly Microsoft, of course). But I digress. The reason I found 4051/4052 BASIC awful was because that IF statement, coupled with an absence of multistatement lines, takes away half the fun things I used to do on the PET (wherewith I grew up). On the 4052A and 4054A, BASIC really was nice. I think this is the dialect that Transera Corp. ported to PCs and some of their embedded processors. They call it TBasic, and I think this stands for Tektronix Basic. Certainly it has a lot of the graphics commands in common with the 4051/4052. But perhaps I was a bit harsh - Tek BASIC does have very powerful graphics and quite powerful GPIB handling. I still use it, after all :-) Philip. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 13 11:54:47 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Interesting goodies on punched paper tape! Message-ID: <13323926601.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Can anyone identify these? I have a serial tape reader, so I plan to read these into my PC and see if E11 or the Supnik emulator will take them. But I don't know what's on these. So, I'll just retype the labels Here goes... PUNCHED PAPER TAPES: CASE #1 DEC-11-NFPMA-A-PR2 8/72 M FPMP-11 DOUBLE PRECISION PACKAGE REPLACES: DEC-11-YQPC-PB DEC-11-NFPMA-A-PR1 8/72 M FPMP-11 SINGLE PRECISION PACKAGE REPLACES: DEC-11-YQPC-PB DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PR1 12/72 M LINK-11S OBJ V002A TAPE 1 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-ZLQA-PR1 DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PR2 12/72 M LINK-11S OBJ V002A TAPE 2 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-ZLQA-PR2 DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PL 12/72 M LINK-11S LDA V002A SA=22714 RA=22714 REPLACES: DEC-11-ZLQA-PL DEC-11-Y1PA-PB 11/10/69 M DUMPTT-V001A SA=LOAD ADDRESS RA=LOAD ADDRESS DEC-11-Y2PA-PB 11/10/69 M DUMPAD-V001A SA=LOAD ADDRESS RA=LOAD ADDRESS DEC-11-Y2PA-PO 11/10/69 M DUMPAD-V001A SA=XX7500 RA=XX7500 "USE SPECIAL LEADER" DEC-11-Y1FA-PO 11/10/69 M DUMPTT-V001A SA=XX7440 RA=XX7440 "USE SPECIAL LEADER" DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA2 12/72 M IOX V006A TAPE 2 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-Y1PB-PA2 DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA1 12/72 M IOX V006A TAPE 1 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-YIPB-PA1 DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PB 12/72 M IOX V006A REPLACES: DEC-11-YIPB-PB DEC-11-UODXA-A-PA 12/72 M ODT-11X PAL REPLACES: DEC-11-O2PB-PA CASE #2 DEC-11-UODPA-A-PB ODT-11 LDA V005A SA=13026 RA=13030 RE-ENTER=13032 REPLACES: DEC-11-O1PA-PB DEC-11-UODPA-A-PA 12/72 M ODT-11 PAL V005A REPLACES: DEC-11-O1PA-PA DEC-11-UODXA-A-PB 17/72 M ODT-11X LDA SA=12054 RA=12056 REPLACES: DEC-11-O2PB-PB DEC-11-CGPA-PB2 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TEST A SA=NONE RA=NONE TAPE 2 OF 2 DEC-11-CGPA-PB1 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TEST B SA=NONE RA=NONE TAPE 1 OF 2 DEC-11-CGPA-PA1 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TADDUP. ASC. (2) TAPE 1 OF 2 DEC-11-CGPA-PA2 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TADDUP. ASC. (2) TAPE 2 OF 2 DEC-11-UEDPA-A-PB 12/72 M ED-11 V005A REPLACES: DEC-11-E1PA-PB (I have to hurry here, the bell is coming. I'll just list the tape name) PAL 11S OBJ v003A (IT'S on 6 tapes) 6,5,3,2,1 ARE HERE PAL 11S LDA V003A PAL-11A LDA V007A CASE #3 MAINDEC COMMUNICATIONS TEST PROGRAM T14 TRAP TEST (1140 ONLY) T17-4K SYSTEM EXERCISER FPMP-11 SOURCE (6 TAPES. i HAVE 6,5,4,3,2, AND 1) And that's them! I have more elsewhere, I'll dig them out too. But for now, what's these? And can I get the emulator to take them? What about reading them into a real PDP (Like the 11/34?) The tapes are all real DEC tapes, they have DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION - PROGRAMMED DATA PROCESSOR written on them. They seem to all be in good condition. ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 13 12:11:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Interesting goodies on punched paper tape! In-Reply-To: <13323926601.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jan 13, 98 09:54:47 am Message-ID: <9801131811.AA24641@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1441 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980113/004e58b8/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Tue Jan 13 12:15:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800138847.AA884719411@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > Me too! But I think a 4381, say or even a 9370, would be easier to work > on. Getting a 9370 should not be a problem - they are dogs that really were not sucessful. I have seen quite a few in the scrap yards (none suitable for taking, however). > Why? The 308X and 3090 (and I think also the 303X, although I know > less about them) were _water cooled_. Maybe I am biassed as an > electrical engineer, but I think that anything with water in it is bound > to make a mess sooner or later... Not all are water cooled. Some have air cooled TCMs - very impressive looking 900 pin PGAs with monster machined aluminum heat sinks. I saw one at a junkyard once a purchased it for two dollars. I still have it. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 13:50:37 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: FWIW Dept: Old computer stuff for sale on AW Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113135037.313faaee@intellistar.net> I found these items for sale on Aucion Web. The same guy ownes all three. "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123" Original Osborne 01 computer". Wants a $44 minimum bid. Oh well, interesting pictures there anyway. "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4185354" a KayPro 2 computer. Only $9.99 minimum on this one. "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4188852" a Commodore 128. bidding is now at $15.00 "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4186764" a Commodore disk drive "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4218100" a KayPro (Sanyo) monitor. From jstern at ibm.net Tue Jan 13 14:02:15 1998 From: jstern at ibm.net (jstern@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: HP9100 A/B Message-ID: <34BBC847.A67@ibm.net> I am looking for an HP9100 A/B: Good Money, even for a non operating machine. Contact: jstern@supremum.com From engine at chac.org Tue Jan 13 13:42:27 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Port Plus and goodies for shipping, Southern CA Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980113114227.00f60a60@pop.batnet.com> Ex-HP employee John Brown in Escondido, CA, would like the following to go to a collector: HP 45711F Portable Plus (this is the off-white-and-maroon laptop) 128K RAM card 9114B single 3.5 stiffy drive Thinkjet printer 82169B HP-IB interface ?? video monitor interface Full, _really_ full, software and docs. All tested and working as of a year ago. John is moving at the beginning of next week and would like to hear from someone who will pay freight on this by Friday, January 16th, or Saturday, January 17th. Please contact him, not me, at JBKE6QIQ@sprynet.com. Understandably, he doesn't want to scrap this. TIA, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Mon Jan 12 20:05:56 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801132032.MAA13770@mx3.u.washington.edu> >some of the 98xx > calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like > calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. I just shipped off an HP 9831, which ran BASIC. manney ps Hey, Joe -- I still haven't received the $10,000 check for it yet. Remember, I'm selling at original HP prices! From rcini at email.msn.com Tue Jan 13 14:49:15 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 16:47:44 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: HP9100 A/B In-Reply-To: <34BBC847.A67@ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113164744.41e7eaca@intellistar.net> At 05:02 PM 1/13/98 -0300, you wrote: >I am looking for an HP9100 A/B: >Good Money, even for a non operating machine. >Contact: jstern@supremum.com > How good? I *might* be tempted to part with mine. You can see it at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9100.htm". Joe From brian at jhu.edu Tue Jan 13 16:05:45 1998 From: brian at jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, I lust for a S/360 or 370, and would even settle for a 3033 or 3081. Just out of curiousity, how would you handle the environmentals for one of those monsters? The 3081, at least, is water-cooled! We scrapped one of those several years back, and it never even occurred to me to try and and take it home. Now that 9221 that we're about to decommission... -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Library Network Guy Johns Hopkins University brian@musicbox.mse.jhu.edu From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 17:19:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113171902.50af09c2@intellistar.net> At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of >accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > Charter ClubWin! Member > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > Nothing unless you get some hardware with it, the ISIS is just the operating system for the Intel MCS 80/85 developement system. It supports all of the Intellec devices. What you can do depends on what hardware and software you get. But a few of the things that it does are: Burn EPROMS, supports Assembly langauge programming (for LOTs of CPUs), Fortran, Pl/M, BASIC, COBOL, hardware developemnt including In-Circuit-Emulators (ICE) for most or all of the Intel CPUs (maybe others too, I'm not sure). Don't discount these systems, they may be old be they're very powerful and are still in use today. They can develope, simulate, test and burn in programs for things like the 8049 and 8051 dedicated uProcessors along with all the standard Intel CPUs like the 8080, 8085, 8086, 80186, 80286 etc. I don't know if these supportted the 80386 or 80486 or the newer CPUs however. This would be a great machine for those guys (and gals, Allison) that still like to tinker with the Altairs and SWTPC and the other old machines that are based on Intel CPUs or will run Intel code like the Z-80 does. Joe From adam at merlin.net.au Mon Jan 12 18:02:35 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <199801132302.JAA04208@arthur.merlin.net.au> >The CPC's were the first Amstrads that I know of, they were commercialized >in Europe. >They are basically just a Keyboar type computer that plugs into a monitor >they also had an integrated tape player for the earlier models and a 3 1/2" >drive for the later models (before the PC compatibles). I don't remember the >exact number but I think that the CPC6128 was the last of the series. A bit more info in case anyone is interested. :) The CPC's were developed by Alan Sugar, who controlled Amstrad at the time, in England. They were pretty much unique, because although there had been rumours, the poress conference where they were announced not only had production CPCs but also a range of completed commercial software - very different from Sir Clive Sinclair's announcements. Anyway, yes - the keyboard is seperate and contains the computer, but the power supply is in the monitor. There was an external power supply available in combination with a TV output box, but from my experience these are quite rare. So if you do get one make sure you get the monitor with it. The monitors are quite good, and are either colour or monochrome. There were three models - the CPC464, CPC664 and CPC6128. The 464 had 64k, a tape drive built in next to the keyboard, and colourful keys. The 664 also had 64k, but it also had the 3" (note - not 3.5") disc drive, and the keys weren't quite so colourful (I think the cursor keys were blue). The 6128 has 128k, the 3" drive, and boring keys - it was the buisiness version. I have a couple of 6128's, but none of the earlier models (yet). They were mostly used as games machines, and were quite good, although there was a very well regarded wordprocessor on them - TasWord, I think it was called. They sold well in Australia and England, as well, or so I gathered, in Germany under a different name. Keep in mind though that if you get a 664 or 6128 the drive probably won't work - the fan belts wore out, and as a result the drive keeps slipping. I'm told that a rubber band (OO, possibly) is a good replacement. Oh, and they're black. :) From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 13 17:51:27 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate on this? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jan 13 18:00:15 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2077AF10E@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Long before anyone glued rust to a strip of plastic and called it recording tape, audio was recorded on spools of wire. Whatever you can record audio on, you can record data on. Wire recorders are actually incredibly durable, and until recently, the airplane 'black box' cockpit voice & data recorders were wire recorders. There are a ton of them still in service. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what the guy had at the flea market. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@wco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:51 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? > > > I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a > storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate > on this? > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, > Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Tue Jan 13 19:17:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a > storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate > on this? I believe Germany used such a system for recording and broadcasting during World War II. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jan 13 18:09:21 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <01ISC3GY66FQ9JDIA8@cc.usu.edu> > Long before anyone glued rust to a strip of plastic and called it recording > tape, audio was recorded on spools of wire. In one episode of "The Secret Life of Machines", Tim played with magnetic recording. He recorded a little bit of info on a bandsaw, he stuck some rust to scotch tape and recorded on it, and visited a BBC warehouse where they had some truly amazing video recorders (large reels of steel band instead of tape). It's a shame the Discovery channel doesn't show those anymore. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jan 13 17:02:58 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980113171902.50af09c2@intellistar.net> References: <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <199801132353.RAA28150@onyx.southwind.net> > At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of > >accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? > > > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > > Charter ClubWin! Member > > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > > > > Nothing unless you get some hardware with it, the ISIS is just the > operating system for the Intel MCS 80/85 developement system. It supports > all of the Intellec devices. What you can do depends on what hardware and > software you get. But a few of the things that it does are: Burn EPROMS, > supports Assembly langauge programming (for LOTs of CPUs), Fortran, Pl/M, > BASIC, COBOL, hardware developemnt including In-Circuit-Emulators (ICE) for > most or all of the Intel CPUs (maybe others too, I'm not sure). Don't > discount these systems, they may be old be they're very powerful and are > still in use today. They can develope, simulate, test and burn in programs > for things like the 8049 and 8051 dedicated uProcessors along with all the > standard Intel CPUs like the 8080, 8085, 8086, 80186, 80286 etc. I don't > know if these supportted the 80386 or 80486 or the newer CPUs however. > This would be a great machine for those guys (and gals, Allison) that still > like to tinker with the Altairs and SWTPC and the other old machines that ^^^^^ Ahem, SwTPc's were all, solidly, Motorola Based (6800,6809). Exorcisor and Exormacs forever! Jeff > are based on Intel CPUs or will run Intel code like the Z-80 does. > > Joe > > From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jan 13 18:13:13 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113191312.009e1790@mail.northernway.net> At 04:00 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: >Long before anyone glued rust to a strip of plastic and called it recording >tape, audio was recorded on spools of wire. > >Whatever you can record audio on, you can record data on. Wire recorders >are actually incredibly durable, and until recently, the airplane 'black >box' cockpit voice & data recorders were wire recorders. There are a ton of >them still in service. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what the >guy had at the flea market. Well, to slightly shift the paradigm from classic computers to classic TV, I saw a voice wire recorder on Hogan's Heroes -- it was made up to look like a sewing basket. At first, I thought -- uh, yea, right! -- but then I thought about it and it's no different than a record album, but in a different form factor. On the show, they spliced the wire to reformat a message on the wire... do you know what type of wire was used on these types of voice/data recorders, and how would you splice them? (oh, and could you re-record over a previously used piece of wire?) Just curious, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 19:17:13 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <199801132353.RAA28150@onyx.southwind.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980113171902.50af09c2@intellistar.net> <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113191713.4ca75b90@intellistar.net> > ^^^^^ >Ahem, SwTPc's were all, solidly, Motorola Based (6800,6809). >Exorcisor and Exormacs forever! > >Jeff > > >> are based on Intel CPUs or will run Intel code like the Z-80 does. >> > OOPs, I thought SWTPCs were 8080. From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jan 13 18:24:43 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of >accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? Send it to me for the cost of shipping!!!! ;-) (Just kidding...) Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. Anyone here got a few extras of those??? (Heathkit used to still sell those just a few (up to 5) years back... but they still wanted top dollars for them, too. :-( ) Later, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jan 13 18:30:35 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <01ISC48E6SYE9JDFJS@cc.usu.edu> > Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit > gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and > hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' > monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. I have the short-lived low-end version of that unit in the cardboard box. I saw it in the Heathkit catalog, scraped some money together and bought it. I didn't see it in the next catalog. Mine is serial #8. This version of the unit only has half the memory of the one with the protoboard on the front: 256 bytes instead of 512 bytes. It also doesn't have the protoboard: just a keypad and six-digit hex display. There is a spot for an expansion connector on the inside, but I never did anything with it (I tried, though; I ordered a pair of 1Kx4 SRAMs from Radio Shack. 6 months later, _one_ of my two SRAMs arrived. The guy at Radio Shack didn't understand why I didn't want to buy just the one. The other SRAM never did arrive). I've not fired it up recently, but it worked last time I did. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From fbgte at cibola.net Tue Jan 13 18:34:50 1998 From: fbgte at cibola.net (Mario Soto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!! MS Dos Message-ID: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> Hello, My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos 5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? Thanks Mario From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 13 18:36:54 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> References: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <34c607ca.16682040@mail.swbell.net> On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:24:43 -0500, you said: >Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit >gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and >hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' >monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. > >Anyone here got a few extras of those??? > >(Heathkit used to still sell those just a few (up to 5) years back... but >they still wanted top dollars for them, too. :-( ) I have one... with the correspondence course lessons, and the extra components for interfacing with the outside world. The sold (planned to sell?) another gadget with more memory and something else. I'll dig it out someday soon. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 13 18:41:21 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!! MS Dos In-Reply-To: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> References: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> Message-ID: <34c7092f.17039602@mail.swbell.net> On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:34:50 -0700, you said: >Hello, > My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos >5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? I think IBM has disk images available either on the WWW or via ftp. I've only heard about such things and haven't found/downloaded them. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 19:40:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <199801140140.AA22101@world.std.com> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 13, 98 10:42:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1011 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980113/89e4aa17/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Jan 13 19:53:04 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980113175304.0073013c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Wire recorders predated tape recorders. They were in use from the early 1930s, as I recall. An excellent person to contact on this subject is Jonathan Winter of the Bellingham (WA) Antique Radio Museum. You can reach him at jwinter@pacficirim.net, tell him Kevin sent you! He has some examples of wire recorders in his collection. Also see his site on the web, its at http://www.antique-radio.org/ Kevin At 03:51 PM 98/01/13 -0800, you wrote: > >I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a >storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate >on this? > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 13 17:52:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work. In-Reply-To: <000301bd1fd1$992051e0$54987c0a@office1> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 12, 98 06:55:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980113/fc43aae5/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:15 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182805.4b5f94f2@ricochet.net> At 10:56 AM 1/12/98 -0500, Allison(tm) wrote: >I gotta get that sex change. It happens it's MS Allison and I don't have Oh no! It's the new MicroSoft Allison! No more intelligent posts about non-MS computers/software Arrrgghh! 8^) (Sorry, couldn't resist!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182816.0a8f8f20@ricochet.net> At 08:20 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >Well, this specs is for that desktop model 70-E61 and $40 seems bit I agree then. I'm not too up on the IBM numbering scheme. >Hee hee...this is desktop which is called model 70 and the portable >lunchbox is P70 which uses 386 either 16 or 20mhz (ahem...sleepy I've got a P70 then. (Not sure if it's 16 or 20mhz.) >performance and no cache.) The P75 is also lunchbox in same way >BUT, it's real, honest 486DX 33 machine with scsi interface and >plasma display to boot. That is one I would like to have. Hmmm... Me too. Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a little high. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182819.0a8f7e3c@ricochet.net> At 07:55 PM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >>1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: >> Amstrad PPC640 >I didn't know these were available in the US. I just hauled one back >(PPC512) from France last week and I thought that I had a very original >portable (even though it got pretty heavy waiting for customs;) >Were there any other of the Amstrad marketted in the US like the CPC series? Well, Amstrad wasn't really big over here, but they did sell a few machines. Other Amstrad's I've got (second hand) are the PDA600 "PenPad" and the PC-20 (sort of a CoCo-ish/Atari ST-ish one-piece PC). btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't get it, though. 8^( --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:33 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182822.0a8f41aa@ricochet.net> At 10:05 PM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I think if you consider the 5100 a portable, then so should you consider the >> PDP-8. The 5100, while more *convenient* to move, perhaps, than, say, an >> Altair, is hardly all that portable. It's listed as 50lbs (a stretch even >> for me) and has no handle. You tell me how that's a portable? (It's much >> like a TRS-80 Model III, only flatter. I think the III is lighter though.) > >Even if the implementation may be poor (ie. no handles), I think IBM >really did try to make the thing truely portable. After all, all you >needed to do was lug around _one_ 50 pound box to do useful things, rather >than a processor plus a tube or printer, and perhaps an external power I dunno... The 5100 was heavy, did not include a case, offered no protection for the screen, didn't run on batteries... I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- that is, you could move it from room to room because it didn't need air conditioning or special power or anything. But that's true of most of the computers of the time. Yes, it was a one-piece unit, but I don't think that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up or to a client's office to do an audit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:36 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182825.0a8f1568@ricochet.net> At 09:45 PM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >> No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! Whups, forgot the 8^) >Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a >machine is portable. Hmmm... Panasonic Sr. Partner: Handle Apple Mac Portable: Handle HP LS/12: Handle Altima 2: Handle Good Composer: Handel Amstrad PPC640: Handle Bondwell B310+: Handle Osborne 01: Handle (Sorry, couldn't resist.) >It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built >to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved >to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". Yep. >Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. Aw, shucks. I thought I had ya fooled. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 13 19:28:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <199801131217.AA16916@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34BC14BE.5F4ECCA9@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > 20 IF A=5 THEN 100 > > That is standard Dartmouth BASIC! at least it has been since 1969 when I > started programming with it. And it was standard in every Micro$oft BASIC up until QuickBASIC. And in HP-2000 BASIC, on which I first learned. The ANSI Goto (label) was a late development and slow to be adopted by implementors -- the first I recall was the Ryan/McFarlan compiler for the TRS-80s, not that that means it was first in any other way. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 13 19:14:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts References: Message-ID: <34BC1160.7837F9A9@cnct.com> Paul E Coad wrote: > Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright > Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. > (It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 > does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines > in the room: > NEC PC-8201A - no handle > NEC Starlet - no handle > Epson PX-8 - handle > AT&T 3B1 - no handle > Sun 3/60 - no handle > Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a > machine is portable. The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had no handles, unless you bought an overpriced briefcase add-on. I know there's no handle on the Everex I take back and forth to work, that's what my rucksack is for. In fact, I think _most_ modern notebook portables are without handles of their own. > It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built > to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved > to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". > Where I could pickup the 3B1 and take it into work with me everyday, I > have a difficult time believing that this is what AT&T expected. I've carried 3B1s and 7300s goodly distances in my time. They're less painfult than my TRS-80 4p. > Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. Hey, if I can rent a fork lift of adequate capacity, almost _any_ computer is portable, especially if it's conveniently packaged in a rack. (Admittedly, some big iron does have to be at least partially disassembled). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:25 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Pricing in shops Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113213201.00691270@netpath.net> At 08:32 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a >surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a >little high. That's one thing I hate about thrift shops: A monitor is a monitor to them. I've seen monos, cgas, egas, and vgas sitting right next to each other, all with the same price on them. (Needless to say I grabbed the VGAs!) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 13 20:23:15 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: What Transciever for a VAXstation II/RC Message-ID: I've been doing some research and I've learned that it is possible to do a network boot of at least some VAXen using a properly configured Linux server with a NFS mountable version of NetBSD. I'm currently in the process of FTPing the necessary software and hope to get my VAXstation 2000 up tonite using this method. I would also like to be able to boot my VAXstation II/RC this way, but I need a Ethernet Transciever for it. According to my Hardware manual for this system (I love actually having documentation on something), I need a H4000 Transceiver. What I'm wondering is if I can just go dig up a generic 10Base-2 transceiver and have it work? Eventually I want to get at least the II/RC up and running VMS, but this sounds like a good temporary measure to run the hardware though some paces, so to speak while I'm getting a Hard Drive and VMS on media that I can use. Besides I want to get a copy of NetBSD transfered onto TK50's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From william at ans.net Tue Jan 13 20:43:14 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Just out of curiousity, how would you handle the environmentals for one of > those monsters? The 3081, at least, is water-cooled! We scrapped one of > those several years back, and it never even occurred to me to try and > and take it home. Now that 9221 that we're about to decommission... The first thing to do is get one of the air cooled models. If not, get lots of ice and a pump! Seriously, a 3081 is not that much of a power hog if the memory and disk/tape drives are minimized. The processor itself is quite small and only sucks up a few kilowatts. Yes, it would turn my electric meter into a meat slicer, but I do not need to run a 24-7 shop! Keep an eye on that 9221; that could be fun. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jan 13 20:48:43 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980113182822.0a8f41aa@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > I dunno... The 5100 was heavy, did not include a case, offered no > protection for the screen, didn't run on batteries... > > I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- > that is, you could move it from room to room because it didn't need air > conditioning or special power or anything. But that's true of most of the > computers of the time. Yes, it was a one-piece unit, but I don't think > that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up > or to a client's office to do an audit. Why not? In fact, my unit traveled around Chicago for the movie theaters. It would be very reasonable to get a nice fibreglass or aluminum transit case made that would protect the screen. I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:26:28 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd209c$333c2a90$896a420c@magnum> >That sounds like the machines that I've seen. They're fairly common around >hamfests and other sales. If you're interested in them let me know which >ones you want and an idea of what they'e worth and I'll see about picking >them up. > > Joe > Well basically I would like one of each model that came out ;) Depending on the location where you are shiping cost will probably add a bit to the total. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:32:16 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd209d$0289c6e0$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Firsts >Paul E Coad wrote: >The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had >no handles, unless you bought an overpriced briefcase add-on. I know >there's no handle on the Everex I take back and forth to work, that's >what my rucksack is for. In fact, I think _most_ modern notebook >portables are without handles of their own. T----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably why they are called laptops and not portables. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:36:39 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd209d$9f6b5e10$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:32 PM Subject: Re: Firsts >At 09:45 PM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >>> No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! > >Whups, forgot the 8^) > >>Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a >>machine is portable. > >Hmmm... > >Panasonic Sr. Partner: Handle >Apple Mac Portable: Handle >HP LS/12: Handle >Altima 2: Handle >Good Composer: Handel >Amstrad PPC640: Handle >Bondwell B310+: Handle >Osborne 01: Handle > >(Sorry, couldn't resist.) > Commodore Sx-64 Handle Kaypro I Handle Kaypro II Handle Kaypro16 Handle IBM portable PC Handle Compac Portable Handle MAC toaster style Handle (yes on top of the unit)(Oops does that make it a portable?) (I couldn't resist either) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon >>It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built >>to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved >>to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". > >Yep. > >>Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. > >Aw, shucks. I thought I had ya fooled. 8^) > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 13 21:21:38 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113222133.006a005c@netpath.net> At 09:32 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably >why they are called laptops and not portables. Shoot, it's not even a laptop. I've seen Pentium notebooks bulkier than a M100. :) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 13 21:19:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? References: <3.0.1.32.19980113175304.0073013c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <34BC2EA5.6556AC26@cnct.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > > Wire recorders predated tape recorders. They were in use from the early > 1930s, as I recall. They were critical to the plots in a number of Doc Savage pulps, as I recall. Though admittedly I didn't read them when first issued. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:42:15 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd209e$67fac050$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:31 PM Subject: Amstrads in the US >Well, Amstrad wasn't really big over here, but they did sell a few machines. >Other Amstrad's I've got (second hand) are the PDA600 "PenPad" and the PC-20 >(sort of a CoCo-ish/Atari ST-ish one-piece PC). > >btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was >complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't >get it, though. 8^( I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline bateries. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 16:30:25 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd209d$0289c6e0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <199801140326.WAA02068@mail.cgocable.net> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: Firsts > > > >Paul E Coad wrote: > > >The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had > >no handles, unless you bought an overpriced briefcase add-on. I know > >there's no handle on the Everex I take back and forth to work, that's > >what my rucksack is for. In fact, I think _most_ modern notebook > >portables are without handles of their own. > > T----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Francois Auradon. > Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably > why they are called laptops and not portables. > Hi Francois, Have a care, are your webpage set up correctly? I got 404. Jason D. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:53:03 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd209f$e9e6ae20$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:31 PM Subject: Amstrads in the US >btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was >complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't >get it, though. 8^( How much did it go for? Just curious. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:55:22 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd20a0$3cb47ec0$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Firsts Oops it seems like I inserted the signature in the middle of a word or something like that. Try the link in this one >Hi Francois, > >Have a care, are your webpage set up correctly? I got 404. > >Jason D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 13 21:32:31 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <46df225c.34bc31d1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-13 22:25:52 EST, you write: << Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > > Wire recorders predated tape recorders. They were in use from the early > 1930s, as I recall. >> interesting topic. anyone care to describe exactly how it works? david From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 22:01:17 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: John Higginbotham To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Firsts >At 09:32 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: > >>>The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had > >>Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably >>why they are called laptops and not portables. > >Shoot, it's not even a laptop. I've seen Pentium notebooks bulkier than a >M100. :) > > >-John Higginbotham- >-limbo.netpath.net- The firsts laptops used to have handle (I'm talking XT's and 286s) but I guess these were removed to make the machine smaller and lighter. By the way they are not laptops either; I always have to find a table to put them on so I can use them. If I put them on my lap I'm always afraid to drop them ;-) I'll try not to insert the signature in the middle of the message this time:) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 21:45:03 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <199801140345.AA21963@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801140349.WAA06806@mail.cgocable.net> Francois, Thank you. Works now. :) Jason D. > Oops it seems like I inserted the signature in the middle of a word or > something like that. Try the link in this one > > >Hi Francois, > > > >Have a care, are your webpage set up correctly? I got 404. > > > >Jason D. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Francois Auradon. > Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 17:05:23 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980113182816.0a8f8f20@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801140401.XAA09147@mail.cgocable.net> Roger, > At 08:20 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote: > >Well, this specs is for that desktop model 70-E61 and $40 seems bit > > I agree then. I'm not too up on the IBM numbering scheme. Thanks, I will visit the seller again and see how thing happens next. > >Hee hee...this is desktop which is called model 70 and the portable > >lunchbox is P70 which uses 386 either 16 or 20mhz (ahem...sleepy > > I've got a P70 then. (Not sure if it's 16 or 20mhz.) If you give me the model number, it's on your label somewhere with 4 number, a dash then 3 number code, I will tell you what it's usually stock configuration and it's speed? I have the hefty book on this and too much info to take. > >performance and no cache.) The P75 is also lunchbox in same way > >BUT, it's real, honest 486DX 33 machine with scsi interface and > >plasma display to boot. That is one I would like to have. > > Hmmm... Me too. Gee.. :) One comment: I wished....IBM did: None have produced in early generation of PS/2 series faster than 25mhz anything. And design PS/2 ISA or PCI with 486 and has cache but it did not pan out as I wished! :) But 90 models and XP series uses processor card with different designs for each CPU type, XGA that no one likes. Weirdo PS/2 and $$$. :( Those PS/1 and valuepoints are still expensive through because they're still useful especially ones that has cache and has socketed 486dx or dx2 66. Some had Tseng et4000 which makes them really good game machines. > Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a > surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a > little high. Price? If you could recall? :) Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 22:01:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts/lasts Message-ID: <199801140401.AA05403@world.std.com> uh, right! theres no way IBM is gonna put copyrighted software out on the net for free. only way to get it is to acquire a copy from someone. In a message dated 98-01-13 19:44:45 EST, you write: << >Hello, > My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos >5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? I think IBM has disk images available either on the WWW or via ftp. I've only heard about such things and haven't found/downloaded them >> From scottk5 at ibm.net Wed Jan 14 01:14:37 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd209e$67fac050$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <34BC65DD.4565@ibm.net> Francois Auradon wrote: > I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French > :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power > supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline > bateries. I also have a PPC640 and a couple of other Amstrads. Since the power supply for the desktop Amstrads (like the PC6400DD) is in the monitor, if you have a spare Amstrad monitor lying around, you can plug it into the back of the PPC640, and it will power the portable. Saves the cost of a power supply. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 13 22:29:59 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113232830.006a3608@netpath.net> At 10:01 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >By the way they are not laptops either; I always have to find a table to put >them on so I can use them. If I put them on my lap I'm always afraid to drop >them ;-) I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass 1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD 1535exp w/docking tray. Speaking of GRiDs, any people out there collect them or am I alone? I've made GRiDs my collection specialty since they're small, tough and stackable. GRiDSPeC Page: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 00:52:10 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Francois Auradon head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >>Shoot, it's not even a laptop. I've seen Pentium notebooks bulkier than a >>M100. :) >>-John Higginbotham- >>-limbo.netpath.net- [nip] John, *all* pentium notebooks are bulkier than an M100 (under 4 pounds & fits in a small briefcase) -- AAMAF, the only Pentium based system I've seen that even comes close (and if it beats the M100 it's not by much) is the Toshiba Liberetto (IIRC) which was P75 based, 8M RAM & either a 540 or 850 Meg H.D. (Don't remember which one.) Otherwise, all of the Pentium books are the incredible hulk compared to an M100/T102/T200. >The firsts laptops used to have handle (I'm talking XT's and 286s) but I >guess these were removed to make the machine smaller and lighter. >By the way they are not laptops either; I always have to find a table to put >them on so I can use them. If I put them on my lap I'm always afraid to drop >them ;-) >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon Francois, The first laptops were the Epson HX-20 (IIRC -- or was it the PX-8???) and the Radio Shack (Tandy) Model 100 following shortly thereafter... The HX-20 had a built-in microcassette tape deck, but the Model 100 had a much larger screen. Unlike today's "laptops" (which personally I wouldn't want on mine) both machines had "real" keyboards. (tho I love my T200's best -- real cursor keys in a plus arrangement, not the chicklets in a row.) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 00:57:18 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980113232830.006a3608@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114005718.00975ba0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) John Higginbotham head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight >change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to >accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass >1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD >1535exp w/docking tray. If you're talking commercial laptop, I believe it was the Radio Shack Model 100. It was one of only two commercial laptops ever certified for Space Shuttle travel. Heck, lots of the newer Puntium laptops can't even be used on airplanes anymore, for criminies sake! How can you play cribbage across the Atlantic if you can't even spark 'er up??? ;-) [[ Trivia: The Model 100 held the record in Guiness for a long, long time as the commercial computer with the most miles of travel -- just because of it's Shuttle savvy. ]] (I did just that with my T200 on my way to Germany during the 8 hour trans-Atlantic flight.) Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From gzozman at escape.ca Wed Jan 14 00:01:08 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <9801130614.AA20936@forte.com> Message-ID: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> I caught the PBS special tonight; For info on a videotape of the program, call 800-472-1500, or write; American Film Foundation PO Box 2000 Santa Monica, CA 90406 The program was very interesting. Its main focus was on the social implications of the storage of data in digital format, and its inherent vulnerability compared to traditional mediums (stone, paper, etc.). Most of the emphasis was on how future history will be affected by our digital world; very little time was spent explaining the technical issues involved. The program ended in a very open ended manner; no solution to the problems seems clear. A couple of interesting points made: 1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough drafts of their works. 2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are constantly changing. Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca Peter Prymmer wrote: > > classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subj: Re: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot > > I wrote: > > >I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for > >an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on > >PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas > > I do not know much about the "American Film Foundation" but MacNeil is > a PBS regular and PBS quite often offers transcipts and tapes for sale > at the end of many (but not all) of their broadcasts. While I have several > CRTs for use as monitors I do not own a television tuner or a VCR. (I also > note that the schedule posted at http://www.kqed.org/ implies that the > main Bay Area PBS broadcaster will not be showing Into the Future.) > > Could folks who do manage to see it please post a message regarding whether > there is an address to which one could write to obtain transcripts/tapes? From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 19:59:46 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> References: <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <199801140655.BAA04089@mail.cgocable.net> Merch, Aside from the oldie topics: About liberettos; Things have happened and many guys have upgraded and hacked their liberettos successfully. Now has 1gb or more (requires slim 2.5" hd's in there) and loads of ram like 32mb or more not world-jerky, hd killer 8mb and o/c'ed them to 100mhz and they have gotten linux in 'em successfully as well. IBM did stopped producing those PC110's, 486 machines I think. Boo. :( There's another lightweights weight such as aero, T100X, TI2000 (sweet huge screen but battery life is joke and brain-dead 286). I think that today's is Libertto's so popular as Aero's used to be similar to Bug car in 70's. :) Unrealated to this, main issue especially for linux user is specific video chipset, Negomagic, found in many current and in production notebooks are UNSUPPORTED because that stupid company won't help them with info even offered payment. Also the I20 as well. Hint: remember Diamond. Back to oldie stuff now... And, hey, all portable *ARE* bulky anyway even my Luddite is very thick and heavy. Even the T1000 early one is clusmy too. My opinion is that IBM 5100 is the winner for most heaviest and unprotected portable. Even modern smallest desktops with built-in UPS measured in minutes and a small self-powered monitor is stil far from portable item. :) > ;-) Francois Auradon head-scratched, yawned, then typed: Snip about moaning about bulkiness. > [nip] > > John, *all* pentium notebooks are bulkier than an M100 (under 4 pounds & > fits in a small briefcase) -- AAMAF, the only Pentium based system I've > seen that even comes close (and if it beats the M100 it's not by much) is > the Toshiba Liberetto (IIRC) which was P75 based, 8M RAM & either a 540 or > 850 Meg H.D. (Don't remember which one.) This is original configurations since then, Toshiba are now selling updated configurations with more stuff in them. > > Otherwise, all of the Pentium books are the incredible hulk compared to an > M100/T102/T200. snip about handles.. I wouldn't have any handles on anyway. Reasonably good idea this way so users are forced to hold it carefully and stuff their portables into padded bags/cases. Handles invites accidents and some swing around too easily, bang into other objects that could crack/break screens and hard drives like that, handles breaks, *CRASH!* > Snip! > > See ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > Take care eveybody then! Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 20:11:12 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> Message-ID: <199801140707.CAA05242@mail.cgocable.net> Thank you... I was able to see that I have it in TV listing, BUT from recent ice storm knockout, all channels working execpt for one channel, I was not able to watch PBS that evening. Boo Hiss! I would like to ask; what's else that have been discussed in that program? Good taken on these 2 points through. But we use acidic papers that self-desructs in few years. I heard a librarian lingo: dead books, that is given when a book page is easily broken like a briscuit thin wafer when a corner is folded and creased, corner falls off. There's Bit rot, alumium oxidizing in 100's of cd's, etc. Thanks! Jason D. > I caught the PBS special tonight; > > For info on a videotape of the program, call 800-472-1500, or write; > > American Film Foundation > PO Box 2000 > Santa Monica, CA 90406 > > The program was very interesting. Its main focus was on the social > implications of the storage of data in digital format, and its inherent > vulnerability compared to traditional mediums (stone, paper, etc.). > Most of the emphasis was on how future history will be affected by our > digital world; very little time was spent explaining the technical > issues involved. The program ended in a very open ended manner; no > solution to the problems seems clear. > > A couple of interesting points made: > > 1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve > the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the > development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and > how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough > drafts of their works. > > 2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve > themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore > throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on > storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. > This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are > constantly changing. > > Grant Zozman > gzozman@escape.ca > From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 02:18:39 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> References: <9801130614.AA20936@forte.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Grant Zozman head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >For info on a videotape of the program, call 800-472-1500, or write; >American Film Foundation >PO Box 2000 >Santa Monica, CA 90406 Thanks for the info!!! :-) >A couple of interesting points made: >1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve >the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the >development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and >how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough >drafts of their works. This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) I don't always save incremental steps of my projects, but I never delete an unfinished project -- packratism saves me there. >2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve >themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore >throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on >storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. >This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are >constantly changing. Thankfully, I'm using my latest & greatest technology to help *preserve* the ancient softwares -- I have an older (durned near ready for this list -- it was built in '89 or '90) MaxOptix Tahiti I 1-Gig Magneto Optical drive, which is 30-year archival quality storage, and also a CD-ROM burner, which some of the better rated disks (like my Kodaks) last upwards of 100 years (or so the label says...) I've archived a great deal of my CoCo, Tandy 200 and Tandy 600 software on my M.O. until I organize it better, then it will be burned to a CD-ROM. Oh, if anyone's interested in Tandy 600 software, I have a T600 FTP site here: ftp://ftp.northernway.net/Tandy600/ The incoming directory in the root FTP directory works, so if you have any T600 software to add to the FTP site, please upload it & e-mail me about it! Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 04:37:19 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980114053458.0069f9d8@netpath.net> At 12:57 AM 1/14/98, you wrote: >If you're talking commercial laptop, I believe it was the Radio Shack Model >100. It was one of only two commercial laptops ever certified for Space >Shuttle travel. Heck, lots of the newer Puntium laptops can't even be used >on airplanes anymore, for criminies sake! How can you play cribbage across >the Atlantic if you can't even spark 'er up??? ;-) That's where it gets a little sticky. GRiD Systems started out only making their laptops for the government, so it wasn't exactly commercial back then. I;ve seen plenty of photos of GRiDs being used in the shuttle, as well as lots of NASA projects and experiments on the internet that use one GRiD or the other as it's brains. I do know that the Compass 1100 does predate the m100 by a few years though. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 07:58:22 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114075822.486793c4@intellistar.net> Roger, At 07:24 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of >>accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? I'll send you mine for the cost of shipping. I hope you have a big wallet! Joe > >Send it to me for the cost of shipping!!!! ;-) (Just kidding...) > >Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit >gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and >hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' >monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. > >Anyone here got a few extras of those??? > >(Heathkit used to still sell those just a few (up to 5) years back... but >they still wanted top dollars for them, too. :-( ) > >Later, >"Merch" >-- >Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional >Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers >zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Jan 14 07:02:08 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980114080208.00690bd8@mail.wincom.net> At 03:51 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: > >I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a >storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate >on this? > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > Wire recorders for sound recording were quite common in the '40s and '50s before the tape recorder took off. I still have one that was a combination record player and w.r. The turntable acted as a take up reel. The wire broke easily and was awful to splice. Cheers Charlie Fox From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Wed Jan 14 07:04:40 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <01bd20ec$f95f8780$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I acquired a pair of IBM Displaywriters today, complete with a printer, disks and documentation. One surprise was that the copyright dates on the various (first edition) manuals was 1982 and 1983. I had been under the impression that these machines predated the PC. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980115/3abb0e70/attachment.html From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 14 07:04:40 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <9800148848.AA884811931@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Francois Auradon wrote: > I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French > :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power > supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline > bateries. When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's your uncle. PS If you can't work out how to do it from the above, don't try it yourself, get someone with some more electrical knowledge :-) Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 08:22:47 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd209c$333c2a90$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114082247.47ef57fa@intellistar.net> I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may take some time. Joe At 09:26 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>That sounds like the machines that I've seen. They're fairly common around >>hamfests and other sales. If you're interested in them let me know which >>ones you want and an idea of what they'e worth and I'll see about picking >>them up. >> >> Joe >> >Well basically I would like one of each model that came out ;) >Depending on the location where you are shiping cost will probably add a bit >to the total. >>From what I understand the monitor is also required. >My preference would be a CPC464 then a CPC6128 then a CPC664. >By the way where are you located? I'm in Minnesota. >As for the cost I would probably pay up to $50 per machine (that is >including shipping) depending on the quality and software that comes with >it. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jan 14 08:25:34 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 14, 98 02:18:39 am Message-ID: <9801141425.AA26953@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/d8111a0c/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 09:38:19 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <9800148848.AA884811931@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114093819.1baf4c94@intellistar.net> At 01:04 PM 1/14/98 GMT, you wrote: >Francois Auradon wrote: > >> I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French >> :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power >> supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline >> bateries. > >When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >your uncle. > And Bob's your uncle.? What does that mean? I thought Roger was our uncle? Aw well, never mind. >PS If you can't work out how to do it from the above, don't try it >yourself, get someone with some more electrical knowledge :-) > >Philip. > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 14 08:50:17 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <9800148848.AA884818229@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >>found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >>these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >>your uncle. >> > > And Bob's your uncle.? What does that mean? I thought Roger was our >uncle? Aw well, never mind. Oops! Sorry. I forgot most of you don't speak English ;-) "Bob's your uncle" is an expression indicating the completion of a simple task. Or something. Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 09:52:00 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <000401bd2098$1697b200$54987c0a@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114095200.1b6f64b8@intellistar.net> R, I'm also sending this to the classic computer mail list since several people there have asked abou this stuff. At 06:54 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Joe: > > I found another guy that has an ISIS-II system, but it's centered on the >MCS-48/51 series. I was really more curious as to what the thing was used >for. I'm not sure, it's not in any of my Intel catalogs but I think it's specificly for developing software and hardware for the 8048 CPU. > > The stuff that the guy has is extensive. Yes, Intel made lots of this stuff. At least two different Intellec CPU units, several different ICE (In Circuit Emulators), several different disk drive units, one or two different EPROM burners, additional memeory units, a bread board unit and more. My OLD catalog shows 42 different hardware pieces. AND they were a number of different assemblers and high level programming languages available. They called it "Intellec". Most of the units can be used with any Intellec system and for any target CPU. If you have any specific questions I will try to answer them. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 08:50:33 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <7eb5c8f0.34bcd0bb@aol.com> I own a grid laptop; a compass II 1129 to be exact. I got if from my brother who claimed it came from some nasa engineer and the computer played some major part in shape shuttle flight/development or whatever. mine works fine, and even has some apps in some extra roms. it's not much of a portable machine though because it still has to run on ac power. gotta love the bouncing balls screen saver though! In a message dated 98-01-13 23:31:20 EST, you write: << I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass 1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD 1535exp w/docking tray. Speaking of GRiDs, any people out there collect them or am I alone? I've made GRiDs my collection specialty since they're small, tough and stackable. GRiDSPeC Page: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD >> From Bill_Opalka at notes.intdata.com Wed Jan 14 09:44:42 1998 From: Bill_Opalka at notes.intdata.com (Bill_Opalka@notes.intdata.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Getting off this list......... Message-ID: <8525658C.00556488.00@notes.intdata.com> Alright.. I've tried every incantation I could to get off this list including: 1) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@intdata.com 2) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@notes.intdata.com 3) unsubscribe classiccmp bill.opalka@intdata.com 4) unsubscirbe classiccmp bill.opalka@notes.intdata.com 5) unsubscribe classiccmp Bill.Opalka@notest.intdata.com 6) Sending mail to the list manager (@notest.intdata.com bcw@u.washington.edu ) Can someone help me get off this list.......... Thanks, /Bill From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 10:47:23 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801132032.MAA13770@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114104723.09d72cf8@intellistar.net> At 09:05 PM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >>some of the 98xx >> calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like >> calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. > >I just shipped off an HP 9831, which ran BASIC. > >manney > >ps Hey, Joe -- I still haven't received the $10,000 check for it yet. >Remember, I'm selling at original HP prices! Manney, Santa is bringing it. Just watch for him. Joe > > From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 10:17:22 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <7eb5c8f0.34bcd0bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114111722.007d1730@netpath.net> At 09:50 AM 1/14/98 EST, you wrote: >I own a grid laptop; a compass II 1129 to be exact. I got if from my brother >who claimed it came from some nasa engineer and the computer played some major >part in shape shuttle flight/development or whatever. mine works fine, and >even has some apps in some extra roms. it's not much of a portable machine >though because it still has to run on ac power. gotta love the bouncing balls >screen saver though! Never saw that screensaver on my Compass 1100. Mfg date on it is 1982, no internal drives, no extra ROMs either. The 1100 used bubble memory. I still haven't found a good explanation on what bubble memory is. Anyone know? I do know that when I got it, there were files in there created back in '85 that were still there, and I didn't see any battery inside to speak of, so I guess this is a feature of bubble memory? I deleted files and created some new ones and they saved fine. Trippy. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 10:21:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980114104723.09d72cf8@intellistar.net> References: <199801132032.MAA13770@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114112135.007e64b0@netpath.net> I did find a description of bubble memory: A type of non-volatile memory composed of a thin layer of material that can be easily magnetized in only one direction. When a magnetic field is applied to circular area of this substance that is not magnetized in the same direction, the area is reduced to a smaller circle, or bubble. It was once widely believed that bubble memory would become one of the leading memory technologies, but these promises have not been fulfilled. Other non-volatile memory types, such as EEPROM, are both faster and less expensive than bubble memory. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 10:42:53 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980114114251.009b9140@mail.northernway.net> At 11:21 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >A type of non-volatile memory composed of a thin layer of material that can >be easily magnetized in only one direction. When a magnetic field is >applied to circular area of this substance that is not magnetized in the >same direction, the area is reduced to a smaller circle, or bubble. One of the differences with bubble memory is that it has to be accessed in a serial / sequential manner -- on a 1 megabit bubble device you cycle thru all the bits, then grab a certain set of bytes from the device according to an index or FAT. Tho the devices are rather quick, they do not have the speed of hard drives. I believe you could put 8 devices in parallel, and that would increase your access 8x, tho. > It was once widely believed that bubble memory would become one of the >leading memory technologies, but these promises have not been fulfilled. >Other non-volatile memory types, such as EEPROM, are both faster and less >expensive than bubble memory. The cost of manufacturing bubble memories did not drop in price much unlike other technologies of the day. You are correct, tho. Bubble memories are completely non-volotile and require no power to preserve their memory -- I have no clue as to the bit-rot spec's, tho. (A decent magnet will squanch your data.) I have an article in Rainbow magazine on how to build a 128K byte device as a near-line non-volotile storage unit for the CoCo -- designed by that great master Dennis Bathory Kitsz. (apologies to Dennis if I misspelled.) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 10:45:00 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Grant Zozman wrote: > 2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve > themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore > throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on > storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. > This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are > constantly changing. That's what we are here for...to preserve the digital past. I've never thought of the necessity to preserve "vast quantities of digital data" (what would that be anyway?) but by preserving the hardware, software, manuals, magazines, sales literature, etc. we are ensuring that this stuff will be there for future generations to marvel over. The trick is keeping it intact. More emphasis needs to be placed on preserving the medium. We've done a decent job of addressing the issue, but society at large hasn't. The movie industry a few years back realized they had a problem on their hands when they realized old movie reels in their vaults were disintegrating and historic old movies were being lost. There was then an industry campaign to find ways to preserve these important reels. I think the computer industry needs to do the same. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 10:56:14 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve > >the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the > >development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and > >how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough > >drafts of their works. > > I don't always save incremental steps of my projects, but I never delete an > unfinished project -- packratism saves me there. As a general practice, I (mostly) regularly make a zip file of all the source code for each of my projects with a filename that includes the date, and this zip file goes into a \backup directory on my PC (I also make copies to other nodes on the network as well as to floppy). I have a living system that I have incremental code for going back to 1993; there's probably over 100 different zip files containing the evolutionary story of the program. I'm just a natural born archivist (ie. pack-rat) which is why I never could get myself to delete old copies of source. I guess I really have a high opinion of myself because I don't think I have ever deleted any of my own work. > Oh, if anyone's interested in Tandy 600 software, I have a T600 FTP site here: > ftp://ftp.northernway.net/Tandy600/ > > The incoming directory in the root FTP directory works, so if you have any > T600 software to add to the FTP site, please upload it & e-mail me about it! Much maligned FTP sites such as Asimov (a site which houses obsolete commercial Apple ][ software for those not aware) are doing a service that the anti-piracy zealots often over-look: as long as the underlying infrastructure is alive (the hard-drive it is stored on, the computer that hosts the hard drive and the net that links the computer to the rest of us) the programs are alive. I'd much rather have old programs remain available, especially so we can continue to enjoy them, rather than have them die out completely because somebody believes its simply wrong to harbor "pirated" software. (Sorry for the rant.) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From atomicandrew at earthling.net Wed Jan 14 10:15:29 1998 From: atomicandrew at earthling.net (atomicandrew@earthling.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Original IMSAI Board and More for sale Message-ID: <34BCE4A1.552B@earthling.net> First of all, let me apologize to anyone receiving this email who considers it garbage. Have several items related to the IMSAI computer for sale: Vector Graphic, Inc. [Rev 3] PROM/RAM BOARD w/cable and connector/pins. MAY 1976 IMSAI Complete Product Catalog - "The Complete Microcomputer System". Original price $1 IMSAI Domestic Price List for November '77 Invoice dated '78 (from IMSAI). Comes in what I assume is the original box, but this cannot be verified. Card has never been used and accessory items are still in original packaging. If you are interested, please make an offer an all items. Best offer by 2/1/98. JPEG's can be sent upon request, and I will try to answer any questions. Thanks Andrew By the way, although I don't collect computers, I might trade for an interesting old Apple or Atari. From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 11:27:57 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Original IMSAI Board and More for sale In-Reply-To: <34BCE4A1.552B@earthling.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 atomicandrew@earthling.net wrote: > Have several items related to the IMSAI computer for sale: > > Vector Graphic, Inc. [Rev 3] PROM/RAM BOARD w/cable and connector/pins. > > MAY 1976 IMSAI Complete Product Catalog - "The Complete Microcomputer > System". Original price $1 > > IMSAI Domestic Price List for November '77 > > Invoice dated '78 (from IMSAI). > > Comes in what I assume is the original box, but this cannot be > verified. Card has never been used and accessory items are still in > original packaging. > > Andrew > > By the way, although I don't collect computers, I might trade for an > interesting old Apple or Atari. If someone can find an old Atari 800 or 800XL in a thrift shop for $2.98 (I find them at that price all the time) then IMO that would be a decent trade. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jan 14 10:54:54 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114112135.007e64b0@netpath.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980114104723.09d72cf8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801141710.LAA29735@onyx.southwind.net> > I did find a description of bubble memory: > > A type of non-volatile memory composed of a thin layer of material that can > be easily magnetized in only one direction. When a magnetic field is > applied to circular area of this substance that is not magnetized in the > same direction, the area is reduced to a smaller circle, or bubble. > > It was once widely believed that bubble memory would become one of the > leading memory technologies, but these promises have not been fulfilled. > Other non-volatile memory types, such as EEPROM, are both faster and less > expensive than bubble memory. > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > Yeah, I remember bubble memory. It seems like Fujitsu actually got to work halfway decent. Despite the cost and speed limitations, Fluke used it in their high-end E-Disk memories for the 1720 series instrument controllers. SLow, expensive, but for awhile it was about all you could use for mass storage in certain hostile environments. Jeff > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:44 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103840.501f0d42@ricochet.net> At 09:42 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French And where do you live? 8^) >:) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power >supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline >bateries. Me too. I would think a generic ps from Radio Shack would work, but since I haven't tried that I dunno... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103825.501f24f6@ricochet.net> At 09:48 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- [...] >> that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up >> or to a client's office to do an audit. > >Why not? In fact, my unit traveled around Chicago for the movie theaters. >It would be very reasonable to get a nice fibreglass or aluminum transit >case made that would protect the screen. Well, I suppose it's possible (I mean, there are still a lot of wierdos out there who haven't upgraded to Win95! 8^) but I can't go for it. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Of course, this means I need one for my collection, so I can show folks what some people think is a portable computer... Wanna send me yours? 8^) >I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. I thought someone here said they didn't? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> At 09:36 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >MAC toaster style Handle (yes on top of the unit)(Oops does that make it a >portable?) Actually, an excellent point -- if the IBM 5100 is a portable, then, so too is the compact mac? Even more so I would think (what with the considerably lesser weight and addition of a handle?) In case y'all haven't guessed, I'm strongly against the idea of the IBM 5100 being considered the first portable computer. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:55 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts/lasts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103852.501fab38@ricochet.net> At 11:01 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >You shouldn't have oughta done that. ;-) Calling me microspooge is >frighten words. Oh heavens the lost data. I'm sorry! It won't happen again! For penance, I will not use my Portfolio (Dip-DOS, not MS-DOS) for 24 hours, and no Freecell for 3 days. 8^) Hail Gary, full of genius, the code is with thee. Blessed art though among programmers, and blessed is the fruit of thy labor, CP/M. Holy Gary, father of CP/M, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our disk crash. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:51 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103848.501f3d68@ricochet.net> At 11:05 PM 1/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >If you give me the model number, it's on your label somewhere with 4 >number, a dash then 3 number code, I will tell you what it's usually >stock configuration and it's speed? I have the hefty book on this >and too much info to take. I'll check it out and let you know -- It's actually in Concord (about 35 miles from here) being used to run an engine dyno something-or-other program that my mechanic has. (His main computer's a mac.) >One comment: I wished....IBM did: >None have produced in early generation of PS/2 series faster than >25mhz anything. And design PS/2 ISA or PCI with 486 and has cache >but it did not pan out as I wished! :) But 90 models and XP series >uses processor card with different designs for each CPU type, XGA >that no one likes. Weirdo PS/2 and $$$. :( Those PS/1 and My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory and such. What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the fuse blows.) >> Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a >> surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a >> little high. >Price? If you could recall? :) I think it was about $150. I might pick it up now, at that price, but I saw it before I started collecting computers. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:47 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103844.501f9f24@ricochet.net> At 09:53 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was >>complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't >>get it, though. 8^( > >How much did it go for? Just curious. $100 if I were a rich man... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:59 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103855.501f6d48@ricochet.net> At 11:29 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight >change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to >accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass >1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD I've been told that the m100 is one of two commercially produced computers certified for use on the shuttle. Never heard what the other was, but perhaps it's the grid? >GRiDSPeC Page: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD See (I know you probably know about it, but others mightn't.) (P.S. heard back from Ryan; he left my stuff with a friend to ship it when he moved, and the friend didn't. Meanwhile, he's stuck in the ice storms without power/heat/'net. At least its not lost!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Wed Jan 14 12:59:54 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: > This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) > half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill > Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) I really do not buy this point. Just about every software development company I know of uses a revision control system to keep every bit of working code that the programmers type out. This includes the hundreds of tiny revisions that are made between releases, even the "dead-ends". William Donzelli william@ans.net From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 13:00:42 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: GRiD/M100/Shuttles In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103855.501f6d48@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114140042.007ea920@netpath.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >I've been told that the m100 is one of two commercially produced computers >certified for use on the shuttle. Never heard what the other was, but >perhaps it's the grid? It appears to be the GRiD, as seen in pictures here: http://www.pd.com/GRiD.html >See (I know you probably know about it, but >others mightn't.) Yeah, he's more of a GRiDPAD freak, I'm into the older 80's model laptops. Speaking of which, I just received my GRiD 1535 EXP. It's real nice, even had a docking tray that can fit one 8-bit ISA and one 16-bit ISA card in. 1535exp Magnesium Alloy casing just like any other true GRiD 386-??, 387 mathco 8mb RAM 42mb HD (3.5" IDE, internal) 2 ROM sockets up front, like the older GRiDCASE machines CGA display (I think the backlight is out, if it had one. Kinda hard to adjust the contrast just right, but since I know squat about backlights, I'll leave it alone for now.) Suprised it came with CGA. I'd have thought it would at least have mono VGA, but I think that was the 1537 and above. It'll make a nice little text based linux box when I get everything hooked up. (I'll have to run a serial connection to transfer files since there's no floppy to speak of. The floppy plugs into a standard db25 connector, with one pin on the end filled in wth a plastic stopper. Anyone got a floppy??? Anyone know if a different model external floppy would work?) >(P.S. heard back from Ryan; he left my stuff with a friend to ship it when >he moved, and the friend didn't. Meanwhile, he's stuck in the ice storms >without power/heat/'net. At least its not lost!) Looks like a real mess up north. Here in NC, the people panic when we get 4" of snow. (But let's not talk about snow, it may be taken as offtopic by the fine upstanding members of this list.) :) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 14 13:15:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory Message-ID: <199801141915.AA28798@world.std.com> Message-ID: For a time there was an Apple ][ Bubble memory controller which included disk software. I sure wish I could still find one of these. I remember this was marketed for industrial applications in factory environments. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Intel manufactured 1mb and 4mb parts with control chips. The BPK72 > was the 1mb part on a card with all the control to make a 128k storage > system. I have two, bought in '85. they still owrk and have proven quite > rugged too. > > > I used them in cpm based systems and they are faster than floppy on > average. The byte transfer rate is slower but the seek time is real > fast. They work well. AS to cost they compared well with floppy > systems of the time considering they were able to take shock and > vibration. > > Allison > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 14 09:07:54 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103848.501f3d68@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801142004.PAA23401@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Roger! Snip! > I'll check it out and let you know -- It's actually in Concord (about 35 > miles from here) being used to run an engine dyno something-or-other program > that my mechanic has. (His main computer's a mac.) (!!) Wow! Oddball combo and remember to extract this model number not from the logo up front. It's on the sticker somewhere on back or on bottom besides an barcode. Thanks! My wishful throughts snipped. :) > My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory and > such. I agree, but the 72pin simms are through and through standard except for setup by 4 sense lines and must be true parity. > > What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact > notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion > slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, > but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to > fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and > sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the > fuse blows.) ISA slot equipped portables always have bulkiness factor due to space wasting isa cards and they're very power hungry so all of them are usually are AC only. How about the Toshiba T5200? If you want more info just let me know! Other choice for a machine, I have a lunch box that have 4 ISA slots space and uses edge-lit mono LCD and it's 8bit ISA cirrus logic controller card. Everything uses desktop parts in this box. I can't use the LCD as VGA graphics mode, only text mode with Linux, I had same problem on Luddite as well. I surmrised that it's the bios routing that makes both portables dos/windows compatiable is at issue, if someone used normal DOS or windows stuff on these, no problem! If you would like it I wish to let it go cheap or as trade for another suitable portable. What kind of processor you're using expecially with this voicemail modem card? This lunchbox takes anything up to baby AT motherboards. (This lunchbox is housing a Asus motherboard model P/I-P55TP4XEG and I was expecting to use it as Xwindows machine but discovered that I cannot pull it off as you see.) To forestall the power problems, use a fair sized UPS on it and shut it down gracefully. Improssible to keep any machines even notebook with PCcard mailvoice modem up and running longer than usual 2 hours unless you use external BIG batteries or are on backup generator. PCcard modems of any type run hot and eat up battery juice. Solar power is expensive and requires large area, and only practical when weather is very sunny. Side note: Just minutes ago, power went out as I was typing this and waited for power to come back, it did, finished up this email. :) I did check the disk first for corrupted files just in case and I already thrown switches to off position if the power is lost just in case. > >> Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a > >> surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a > >> little high. > >Price? If you could recall? :) > > I think it was about $150. I might pick it up now, at that price, but I saw > it before I started collecting computers. Considering this price, it's worth every dollars for it's longlife, easy on eye, size and crispness. 17" size is big and valueable anyway through. Jason D. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bcw at u.washington.edu Wed Jan 14 14:17:08 1998 From: bcw at u.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Getting off this list......... In-Reply-To: <8525658C.00556488.00@notes.intdata.com> Message-ID: You appear to be subbed under several addresses. I removed one before - I'll go back and take another look. ------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw@u.washington.edu (mail may come from alternate addresses) Classic Computers List Operator/Owner http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 Bill_Opalka@notes.intdata.com wrote: > > Alright.. I've tried every incantation I could to get off this list > including: > > 1) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@intdata.com > 2) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@notes.intdata.com > 3) unsubscribe classiccmp bill.opalka@intdata.com > 4) unsubscirbe classiccmp bill.opalka@notes.intdata.com > 5) unsubscribe classiccmp Bill.Opalka@notest.intdata.com > 6) Sending mail to the list manager (@notest.intdata.com > bcw@u.washington.edu ) > > Can someone help me get off this list.......... > > > Thanks, > > > /Bill > > > From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Jan 14 14:18:40 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <199801142018.PAA07098@webern.cs.unc.edu> These two threads just bumped together in my head. Has anybody got an idea of how long data should last on wire? It can't have the same problem with oxide coating that tapes do - the main problem might be to keep any oxide coating from developing. :-) Are the early wire recordings still readable? Maybe CDROMs beat wire in resisting rust, even if they are still not quite perfect on that count. Still, something about the idea of using such an old storage medium appeals to me. Anyone want to try running some fine ferrous wire through an old cassette (or even reel-to-reel) recorder, and see if the result is readable? Given Allison's warning about head-wear, I wouldn't try it on my favorite stereo system. Just what we need, another incompatible storage medium. :-) Cheers, Bill. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 15:29:17 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114111722.007d1730@netpath.net> References: <7eb5c8f0.34bcd0bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114152917.44ff6674@intellistar.net> John, Bubble memory is a solid state memory device that has "channels" of magnetic bubbles in it. Each bubble can be polarized N or S giving a 0 or 1. The bubbles can be pushed down the "channel" to get to the desired bubble, exactly like operating a magnetic tape. It's also a serial access device same as a mag tape, so access speed isn't too good. If I remember right they do retain memory when the power is off and they will retain memory for long periods (~ 100 years.) Joe At 11:17 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:50 AM 1/14/98 EST, you wrote: >>I own a grid laptop; a compass II 1129 to be exact. I got if from my brother >>who claimed it came from some nasa engineer and the computer played some >major >>part in shape shuttle flight/development or whatever. mine works fine, and >>even has some apps in some extra roms. it's not much of a portable machine >>though because it still has to run on ac power. gotta love the bouncing balls >>screen saver though! > >Never saw that screensaver on my Compass 1100. Mfg date on it is 1982, no >internal drives, no extra ROMs either. The 1100 used bubble memory. I still >haven't found a good explanation on what bubble memory is. Anyone know? I >do know that when I got it, there were files in there created back in '85 >that were still there, and I didn't see any battery inside to speak of, so >I guess this is a feature of bubble memory? I deleted files and created >some new ones and they saved fine. Trippy. > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 14:45:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114124133.0df71cdc@ricochet.net> Dunno if my message got out before netscrap died... FOr the web page: Gridpad 1910 power supply: Part No. 106286-00 Input: AC 100v - 240v ~ 50/60 Hz 1.0a Output: 17.25v .-. 2.0a + -o)- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 15:52:49 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103825.501f24f6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114155249.515f70f2@intellistar.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:48 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>> I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- >[...] >>> that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up >>> or to a client's office to do an audit. >> >>Why not? In fact, my unit traveled around Chicago for the movie theaters. >>It would be very reasonable to get a nice fibreglass or aluminum transit >>case made that would protect the screen. > >Well, I suppose it's possible (I mean, there are still a lot of wierdos out >there who haven't upgraded to Win95! 8^) but I can't go for it. I think >we'll have to agree to disagree. > >Of course, this means I need one for my collection, so I can show folks what >some people think is a portable computer... Wanna send me yours? 8^) > >>I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. > >I thought someone here said they didn't? I said they didn't but I don't know that for certain. I can find out though. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 15:55:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114155555.515f50e2@intellistar.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 09:36 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>MAC toaster style Handle (yes on top of the unit)(Oops does that make it a >>portable?) > >Actually, an excellent point -- if the IBM 5100 is a portable, then, so too >is the compact mac? Even more so I would think (what with the considerably >lesser weight and addition of a handle?) > >In case y'all haven't guessed, I'm strongly against the idea of the IBM 5100 >being considered the first portable computer. 8^) Then what do you consider to be the first portable? > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:00:15 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103855.501f6d48@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114160015.0a371a68@intellistar.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 11:29 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight >>change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to >>accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass >>1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD > >I've been told that the m100 is one of two commercially produced computers >certified for use on the shuttle. Never heard what the other was, but >perhaps it's the grid? I don't know if you'd consider it a computer, but the HP 41 was used on a number of shuttle flights. A friend of mine from HP went to Houston to teach the astronauts how to use the 41. I've heard that the HP 65 or 67 was used on some space flights even earlier, but I have not confirmed that. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:14:28 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: HP 9816 keyboard Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114161428.42077bf6@intellistar.net> Who was asking for a HP 9816 keyboard a while back? I have one now. Joe From red at bears.org Wed Jan 14 15:19:01 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Actually, an excellent point -- if the IBM 5100 is a portable, then, so too > is the compact mac? Even more so I would think (what with the considerably > lesser weight and addition of a handle?) I don't see why not.. I've taken my SE/30 with me on trips to visit my parents. I've even used it on the ferries here. It's great to haul out this 'real computer' and then shoot supercillious looks at all the commuter laptop-weenies as you mouse around and type a thousand words a minute (as loudly as possible) on a full sized keyboard... Is it me or does the SE/30 just radiate good karma? There's just something about it that makes it incredibly pleasant to use, even when its being grumpy (and mine's about as grumpy as they come). Whoops, these aren't quite 10 years old yet, being introduced January 1989. Maybe I should try it with a Plus, next time. Or a 128k. (: ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:52:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114165229.5b9772f6@intellistar.net> I found a non-working Osborne computer at a scrap dealers. I tried to test it but no lights came on or drives moved so I suspect a power supply problem. It's probably fixable without too much trouble. There is a similar one for sale on Auction Web. You can see pictures of it there "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123". The dealer wants $20 plus shipping. Anyone interested in it? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:55:32 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Weird Epson HX-20 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114165532.5b97d43a@intellistar.net> I found two Epson HC-20s today that appear to have GP-IB interfaces. They have indicator lites for most of the GP-IB signals in the plug in module and the module says GP-IB but the connector on it is a female BD-25 connector. Does anyone know for sure what this is? Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 16:00:43 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <69f95175.34bd358e@aol.com> the best compact computer for this would be a PS/2E (9533) it doesnt apply to this list because the announce date was ~1993 but its small, quiet (no fan), and has 4 pcmcia card slots. even though its only a 486slc, its quite snappy. i bought two for $30 and fixed them both. david In a message dated 98-01-14 13:44:22 EST, you write: << My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory and such. What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the fuse blows.) >> From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 14 16:33:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <199801142233.AA27618@world.std.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801142217.QAA04524@onyx.southwind.net> > Is it me or does the SE/30 just radiate good karma? There's just something > about it that makes it incredibly pleasant to use, even when its being > grumpy (and mine's about as grumpy as they come). It's definitely a karma thing. I have a Performa 200, which is the SE/30's grandchild (sort of). I am definitely pre-disposed to upgrading it, and using it for 'interesting' stuff. I recently picked up a monochrome SCSI scanner for it at a thrift for $10.00! The computer can hold 10Mb of ram max, I think. I really like it. It just works (as long as I remember to plug the SCSI terminator in). Jeff > > Whoops, these aren't quite 10 years old yet, being introduced January > 1989. > > Maybe I should try it with a Plus, next time. Or a 128k. (: > > ok > -r > -- > r e d @ b e a r s . o r g > ============================= > [ urs longa | vita brevis ] > > From ZGE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 16:46:13 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Question Message-ID: Greetings, I am new to the group , I posted a message a couple of days ago , I was not sure if it got out . Has anyone ever heard of a kx-33b 4-bit microcomputer or any 4-bit microcomputer trainer type units . thanks, Frank. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 14 12:13:31 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <69f95175.34bd358e@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801142309.SAA01300@mail.cgocable.net> > the best compact computer for this would be a PS/2E (9533) it doesnt apply to > this list because the announce date was ~1993 but its small, quiet (no fan), > and has 4 pcmcia card slots. even though its only a 486slc, its quite snappy. > i bought two for $30 and fixed them both. A quick questions: Is that one of the "first Green Energy pc version" in a notebook sized tiny black box with a flat display panel? Well, we got excited over it but it was so weird and that weak 486SLC 33 cpu, I do have similar chip on a tiny motherboard by cyrix and it's dreadful slow even in DOOM, I had to keep it under half the size compared to my Luddite it did well one or two step above half way size o/c'ed to 25mhz and 4-way 4k cache enabled. But I did not remember this PS/2E cpu speed do you have the mhz speed? To have it that costs you 30 bux each for only about 5 years old thing, that is pretty lucky. What did you got with this pc in this deal? Funny, this Luddite is LTE 386s/20 sold as discontiuned in that '93 because you brought this year up reminded me. This notebook was first announced around early '92 or late '91. This notebook is still in use and sells around 100 to 200 with some s/w and stuff thrown in. Jason D. > david > > > In a message dated 98-01-14 13:44:22 EST, you write: > > << My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory > and > such. > > What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact > notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion > slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, > but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to > fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and > sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the > fuse blows.) >> > > From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jan 14 17:03:39 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS spec In-Reply-To: <199801142233.AA27618@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801142329.RAA05374@onyx.southwind.net> > In real terms as a data storage medium it would be poor becuase of bit > density and reliability. Boy, thats for sure! I remember seeing a program where they demonstrated a German steel tape recording from the late 1930's. The huge reels were spinning like mad, and the guy doing the show commented that these early "tape" players were potentially dangerous when the "tape" broke! And that was just for audio! Jeff > > Even disks/drums of the time were very low density even though some were > oxide coated or even a few cobalt plated. > > Allison > > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 14 17:42:24 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Hey, I can read these tapes! Message-ID: <13324252028.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I plugged my reader into my PC, set it for 2400 baud, and pushed READ. *WHIRR!* Big mess on the floor! We try this again at 300 baud, (Where I can catch the tape as it comes out) and it works fine. For the source tapes. When I assign PTR: to my new tape under E11 2.0, and boot, it says ?INVALID FORMAT or something along those lines... But I can read them! Takes about 15 minutes to read in a 1.5" thick tape. But, I should have images of all the tapes shortly... ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jan 14 17:58:54 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS spec In-Reply-To: <199801142329.RAA05374@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jan 14, 98 05:03:39 pm Message-ID: <9801142358.AA27439@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/e98884cd/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jan 13 20:30:57 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!! MS Dos In-Reply-To: <34c7092f.17039602@mail.swbell.net> References: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980113203057.006b5afc@pop3.concentric.net> yes you can download most of IBM's setup disk from their web site At 12:41 AM 1/14/98 GMT, you wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:34:50 -0700, you said: > >>Hello, >> My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos >>5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? > >I think IBM has disk images available either on the WWW or via ftp. >I've only heard about such things and haven't found/downloaded >them. >_______________ > >Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net >Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, >Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. > > From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 19:04:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, ZGE wrote: > I am new to the group , I posted a message a couple of days ago , I was not > sure if it got out . Has anyone ever heard of a kx-33b 4-bit microcomputer or > any 4-bit microcomputer trainer type units . Frank, I just wanted you to know that your message was received. A lot of times though some messages tend to get buried amidst a great discussion or great debate. You posted your query in the middle of a flood, so there's a good chance that you got lost in the noise. There's also a good chance that nobody has ever heard of what you speak. I myself have not. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 19:39:15 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd2156$638f9460$0100007f@magnum> >>I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French > >And where do you live? 8^) > Minnesnowta From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 18:18:41 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd214b$221383d0$0100007f@magnum> >>:) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power >>supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline >>bateries. > >Me too. I would think a generic ps from Radio Shack would work, but since I >haven't tried that I dunno... The PS says output 13V 1.9A (Ouch...) I don't think it is that standard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 18:16:43 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd214a$dbb71ff0$0100007f@magnum> >>How much did it go for? Just curious. > >$100 > >if I were a rich man... Funny I paid 100FF for mine (that's about $18) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 14 16:15:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 14, 98 00:52:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/ed59aa4d/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jan 14 19:29:29 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Need doc: Sony/Tek Model 308 Data Analyzer Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114172929.007250e0@agora.rdrop.com> A new tool acquisition, but as is often the case, no docs... So, I'm looking for information on, or a set of manuals for a Sony/Tektronix Model 308 data analyzer. Thanks -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 14 19:44:43 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS spec In-Reply-To: <9801142358.AA27439@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 14, 98 03:58:54 pm Message-ID: <199801150144.UAA09190@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tim Shoppa once stated: > > Speaking of "huge reels", I recently got the chance to see an > IMAX projection room. The projector is on a 20 foot "elevator" that > moves the optics from loading position to projection > position. The reels are amazing - the film was about > 3 inches (70 mm?) wide, and the reels were about 3 feet in diameter. There > was a hand truck for the projectionist to use when loading/unloading > reels of film. I was quite impressed! When the IMAX theater in Ft. Lauderdale was upgraded (so it could show 3D IMAX films) one wall of the building had to be removed so that the new projector could be installed. -spc (Now, what this has to do with old computers, I'm not so sure ... ) From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 14 19:57:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Mac's & Good Karma In-Reply-To: <199801142217.QAA04524@onyx.southwind.net> References: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >> Is it me or does the SE/30 just radiate good karma? There's just something >> about it that makes it incredibly pleasant to use, even when its being >> grumpy (and mine's about as grumpy as they come). > >It's definitely a karma thing. I have a Performa 200, which is the >SE/30's grandchild (sort of). I am definitely pre-disposed to >upgrading it, and using it for 'interesting' stuff. I recently >picked up a monochrome SCSI scanner for it at a thrift for $10.00! > >The computer can hold 10Mb of ram max, I think. I really like it. >It just works (as long as I remember to plug the SCSI terminator in). Ah, this is one of the two reasons I didn't replace my SE/30 with the Colour Classic I got originally. The SE/30 can have a max of 32Mb of RAM, mine has 17Mb. Also, I found out that despite the fact they've both got 68030/16 processors the SE/30 is significantly faster! What can I say, my SE/30 is one of my favorite computers! I wouldn't mind haveing one of the 68040 upgrades, but for what I use it for, it doesn't even need it, it just plain screams along (thanks in part to the proper choice of software). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:17:27 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Need doc: Sony/Tek Model 308 Data Analyzer Message-ID: <01bd215b$b9c3a830$0100007f@magnum> I can make a copy for you for the cost of shipping. >So, I'm looking for information on, or a set of manuals for a >Sony/Tektronix Model 308 data analyzer. > >Thanks >-jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:21:19 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <01bd215c$43f1cd70$0100007f@magnum> If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one of mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. thanks for the post. > I found a non-working Osborne computer at a scrap dealers. I tried to >test it but no lights came on or drives moved so I suspect a power supply >problem. It's probably fixable without too much trouble. There is a >similar one for sale on Auction Web. You can see pictures of it there >"http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123". The >dealer wants $20 plus shipping. Anyone interested in it? > > Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 21:21:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 was Re: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114212131.3a57c110@intellistar.net> > > >>>I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. >> >>I thought someone here said they didn't? > > I said they didn't but I don't know that for certain. I can find out >though. > > Joe >> I did find out. IBM did offer a travel case for the IBM 5100. It was feature code # 1501. Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 21:24:14 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? In-Reply-To: <01bd215c$43f1cd70$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114212414.47675f26@intellistar.net> At 08:21 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one of >mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. >thanks for the post. I can get the connector if you're willing to buy the computer to get it and can tell me where it is in the machine. Joe > > >> I found a non-working Osborne computer at a scrap dealers. I tried to >>test it but no lights came on or drives moved so I suspect a power supply >>problem. It's probably fixable without too much trouble. There is a >>similar one for sale on Auction Web. You can see pictures of it there >>"http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123". The >>dealer wants $20 plus shipping. Anyone interested in it? >> >> Joe >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 09:13:10 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801150226.SAA02073@mx3.u.washington.edu> > >Good Composer: Handel ...so are we bach to making jokes here? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 19:55:08 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <52a3e070.34bd6c7e@aol.com> this PS/2E is a desktop machine, but in a very small form factor, a bit bigger and thicker than a modern laptop. it's a isa bus machine with one slot that is used for the pcmcia adaptor. it was supposed to be marketed with an lcd, but i've never seen one. the owner's manual shows it. with the two that i got, they came with original boxes, documentation and disks and even a never opened copy of pcdos 5.0! the good thing about ps2 machines is that not many know about them. the seller thought they were no good and sold at a cheap price. the first needed its passwoid jumper reset and the second machine's floppy drive cable wasnt connected good causing a 165 post and wouldnt boot from the start disk for a reconfig. it was still under warranty, so i just called in where i worked, and had a floppy drive sent out under warranty. the machines also have the keyboard with the mouse pointing stick built in which i like. i gave one to my brother and the other i'm keeping. win95 not supported though, but os2 2.1 and dos/win work fine. once i figure out pcmcia stuff, i plan to ethernet it to the two modern wintel machines i have going now. it has power management built in, and even locks in pcmcia cards for security. like most ps2 machines, also has xga built in. In a message dated 98-01-14 18:11:47 EST, you write: << A quick questions: Is that one of the "first Green Energy pc version" in a notebook sized tiny black box with a flat display panel? Well, we got excited over it but it was so weird and that weak 486SLC 33 cpu, I do have similar chip on a tiny motherboard by cyrix and it's dreadful slow even in DOOM, I had to keep it under half the size compared to my Luddite it did well one or two step above half way size o/c'ed to 25mhz and 4-way 4k cache enabled. But I did not remember this PS/2E cpu speed do you have the mhz speed? To have it that costs you 30 bux each for only about 5 years old thing, that is pretty lucky. What did you got with this pc in this deal? Funny, this Luddite is LTE 386s/20 sold as discontiuned in that '93 because you brought this year up reminded me. This notebook was first announced around early '92 or late '91. This notebook is still in use and sells around 100 to 200 with some s/w and stuff thrown in. Jason D. >> From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:23:37 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd215c$9618afb0$0100007f@magnum> OK I'll get an EE to help me out. Did you ever used that with a monitor? is the 60 Hz vs 50 Hz a problem? >When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >your uncle. > >PS If you can't work out how to do it from the above, don't try it >yourself, get someone with some more electrical knowledge :-) > >Philip. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:32:46 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. Thanks for the help. >I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There >are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may >take some time. > > Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:56:59 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <01bd2161$3f393520$0100007f@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:56 PM Subject: Re: Anybody want an Osborne? >At 08:21 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >>If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one of >>mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. >>thanks for the post. > > I can get the connector if you're willing to buy the computer to get it >and can tell me where it is in the machine. > > Joe I don't think I would pay $20 for just a connector. It' the little thingy on the right below thew storage under the floppy, it has white writing on it that says "do not remove while power is on". this is where you plug in an extenal monitor but if you want to use the internal one, you have to have this loopback. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 22:01:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114220112.57d72316@intellistar.net> Sounds like a good idea. I have been keeping requests for things to look for in a "wishlist" folder. Today I found a keyboard for a HP 9816 today that someone was looking for. I also found a dead Osborne and a bunch of PS2s. Anyone want some PS2s? model 30, 50, 50 Z, 70 386, 55 and others. There are two pallet loads and they're located in Orlando Florida. The owner will probably take $10 -$15 each. NO SHIPPING at that price, he ownes a business and packing etc just takes too much time. I'm looking for a HP 9845 C. Joe At 08:32 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. > >Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going >to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. >That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. >Thanks for the help. > >>I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There >>are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may >>take some time. >> >> Joe >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 22:03:25 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? In-Reply-To: <01bd2161$3f393520$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114220325.57d759f8@intellistar.net> At 08:56 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:56 PM >Subject: Re: Anybody want an Osborne? > > >>At 08:21 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one >of >>>mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. >>>thanks for the post. >> >> I can get the connector if you're willing to buy the computer to get it >>and can tell me where it is in the machine. >> >> Joe >I don't think I would pay $20 for just a connector. It' the little thingy on It may be a little thing but the owner's not going to let me start taking pieces off. Sorry. Joe >the right below thew storage under the floppy, it has white writing on it >that says "do not remove while power is on". this is where you plug in an >extenal monitor but if you want to use the internal one, you have to have >this loopback. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 20:56:42 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <58b0fa10.34bd7aec@aol.com> if this happens, count me in. there's plenty of radio rallies coming up in nc in the spring. In a message dated 98-01-14 21:49:23 EST, you write: << That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. Thanks for the help. >I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There >are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may >take some time. > > Joe >> From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 21:16:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going > to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. > That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. > Thanks for the help. The problem with this is determining how much one wants to pay for a particular system. You have to make sure in advance you know everyone's limit. Some people may not know what a reasonable price is, and may over-pay or put an unreasonable low limit on something they might want. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 20:40:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: Message-ID: <34BD7712.398596D8@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) > > half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill > > Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) > > I really do not buy this point. Just about every software development > company I know of uses a revision control system to keep every bit of > working code that the programmers type out. This includes the hundreds > of tiny revisions that are made between releases, even the "dead-ends". That's _formal, professional_ programmers with systems that support revision control -- how much of the development for eight-bit micros was done on systems without such formal structure back in the 70s, early 80s? -- I'd wager a gagload. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 21:23:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <9801141425.AA26953@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <34BD8132.B48ABF42@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Well, Windows is a very recent development compared to Microsoft's > entire history :-). I've sold several S-100 based systems with 8" > floppy drives, paper tape readers, etc., to Microsoft employees who > are hoping to make backups of the first ten years of Microsoft > software in the archives there. (No, as far as I can tell this > isn't an official Microsoft program. However, most code-writing > employees are allowed to peruse the archives in their Copious > Free Time.) And Paul Allen just bought a XKL (PDP-10 clone), in > part to recreate their original software development environment - I think! Well, as I recall, Windows was part of the promise when the Tandy 2000 premiered in August or September of 1983. At the time, Bill had been in the "formal" computer business less than ten years -- he dropped out of Harvard (voluntarily) in '74 to write software, while I went from Georgia Tech into the USAF due to lack of funds to pay for a much less expensive school (dropping out of Harvard is a sign of "entrepreneurship" [sp]), enlisting is a sign of poverty -- a lot of family money provided Microsoft's starting capital no matter what the official biographies say -- poor people don't drop out of Harvard). So, at present, the promise (let alone the "reality" of Windows is more than 60% of the history of Microsoft at minimum (I forget when the name "Microsoft" happened). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 21:26:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Weird Epson HX-20 References: <3.0.1.16.19980114165532.5b97d43a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34BD81D0.372B09C3@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > I found two Epson HC-20s today that appear to have GP-IB interfaces. They > have indicator lites for most of the GP-IB signals in the plug in module > and the module says GP-IB but the connector on it is a female BD-25 A female BD-25 connector? I've been looking for a dominatrix that young who won't reject me for being as old as Bill Gates. :-) > connector. Does anyone know for sure what this is? > > Joe -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 21:30:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd214a$dbb71ff0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <34BD82DF.8D2FDED1@cnct.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > > >>How much did it go for? Just curious. > > > >$100 > > > >if I were a rich man... > > Funny I paid 100FF for mine (that's about $18) Yes, but they aren't so _rare_ in France. Price and scarcity factors apply. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 21:56:18 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd2169$88996980$0100007f@magnum> If the price is too low then the item is not bought, if it is too high then there is some magin to negociate with the seller. I've almost never paid the asking price for anything (unless bought in a store) but usually hamfests garage sales and flea markets are pretty flexible. Let's say that I am looking for machine X and my max for it is $22, if you find one for $25 it is possible to negotiate. Or we could set a price range. Then there is the shipping, if I go to a hamfest with a list of 25 machines that others are looking for and find let's say 7, they won't fit in my car for one thing (I'll probably by stuff for me too;), and I have to package them all and ship them etc... Like I said I was only thinking about it. It may be feasible for a small group of people but I don't think it could be open to all. (no discriminations intended just practical stuff) Anyways I believe that it is possible but you have to trust the people you work with and limit the wishlist. >The problem with this is determining how much one wants to pay for a >particular system. You have to make sure in advance you know everyone's >limit. Some people may not know what a reasonable price is, and may >over-pay or put an unreasonable low limit on something they might want. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 20:17:27 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801150342.TAA09925@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > I don't know if you'd consider it a computer, but the HP 41 was used on > a number of shuttle flights. A friend of mine from HP went to Houston to > teach the astronauts how to use the 41. I've heard that the HP 65 or 67 > was used on some space flights even earlier, but I have not confirmed that. EDUCalc used to advertise that the '41 went on shuttle flights. I always wondered if theirs was more reliable than mine, which was dreadfully prone to static crashes. Why don't laptops suffer from that -- more massive? Better circuitry? From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 20:24:48 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... Message-ID: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Where did the following terms come from? -Dongle -Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) -Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) -DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) -Mouse manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 20:30:04 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcomi Message-ID: <199801150343.TAA03118@mx4.u.washington.edu> > The reels are amazing - the film was about > 3 inches (70 mm?) wide, Yes. Standard film width (altho' a lot is done on 35mm nowadays, due to improved film. 70mm is for when a lot of special effects are needed.) That's where Leica came up with 35mm, btw -- they cut 70mm cine film in half. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 22:07:53 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Well let me tell you a good/disgusting one: I spent 4 full days going from junck store to junk store trying to find Classics. All 30 or so stores visited told me the same story: We do not keep them! We throw them out as soon as they come in! There is no market for that kind of stuff. I only found two classic in my search: the PPC512 through a coworker of my brother in law and an Exelvision EXL100 at an Apple dealer (the guy was stunned to have somebody come in and ask for classics, then remembered that he had one in the warehouse from 10 years ago and had kindof forgot about it). The only other on that I've seen was an atari 600XL at an outdoor junkyard it had about an inch of dust on top of it and when I picked it up some water poured out of it. So I guess that the price I paid is only because the guy was happy to even get money for it. Oh yeah I also met a collector over there he had a used computer sotre (PeeCee stuff) and he said they are hard to find but he knew a few places. He never told me where. If you are looking for french machine you'll have to go to the dumpsters or knock on doors in order to find anything. >Yes, but they aren't so _rare_ in France. Price and scarcity factors apply. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Wed Jan 14 22:04:13 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >-Mouse I think that's because they look like mice, the cord being the tail... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Wed Jan 14 22:07:11 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: >Well let me tell you a good/disgusting one: I spent 4 full days going from >junck store to junk store trying to find Classics. All 30 or so stores >visited told me the same story: >We do not keep them! We throw them out as soon as they come in! There is no >market for that kind of stuff. Well, in that case, what I would do(if I had the money, which I don't) is go around and make deals with the stores to buy that old equipment from them when it comes in... Then you can fix them up, keep what you like and sell the rest to people that actually like the older systems. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From ZGE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 21:53:39 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Question Message-ID: <48b38c77.34bd8845@aol.com> Thanks for the response Sam . Frank From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 22:12:05 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... References: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34BD8C95.15EEE183@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > Where did the following terms come from? > > -Dongle Probably from "dangle", as a couple of those damned things on a parallel cord caused the cable to do so dangerously and with frequent disconnects unless extra bits and pieces were bought to tie them together. > -Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) Byte came first. A nybble (originally spelled nibble even in the computer trade) was half a byte -- a byte isn't derived from two nybbles, ask Marv Albert. > -Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) Big iron had to be racked in frames that were left in one place, even an industrial forklift couldn't move an assembled system in one piece. Smaller peripherals could stand in standalone racks (the old relay rack being the component of the frames), so the central system was the "main frame". > -DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) Can't help there, funny code terms happen with connectors. The "D" definitely refers to the shape, however. > -Mouse It's got a tail and it's small. And any cat with access to your desk will inform you that it's a very appropriately named cat toy. As I learned when I got my first 3B1. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 22:02:37 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... Message-ID: <331b169a.34bd8a5f@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-14 22:46:14 EST, you write: << Where did the following terms come from? -Dongle -Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) -Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) -DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) -Mouse >> well, i'm sure we've all heard of how the story of how the dongle got it's name. at least the version i heard is that the "thing" was created by a character called Don Gall, and the name came forth from that. Sometimes i'll tell the story at work, and have almost gotten several people to believe it. lol. david From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 22:24:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <34BD8F7B.8521275D@cnct.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > If you are looking for french machine you'll have to go to the dumpsters or > knock on doors in order to find anything. > > >Yes, but they aren't so _rare_ in France. Price and scarcity factors > apply. Jeez, and the French will store vinegar for 200 years on the slim chance it might still be wine. (And stupid Americans will pay high prices for it -- the French won't touch the stuff, they know the chances!). Properly bottled brandy, yes. Wine, no way. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 14 17:56:36 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980114220112.57d72316@intellistar.net> References: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <199801150452.XAA14960@mail.cgocable.net> > Sounds like a good idea. I have been keeping requests for things to look > for in a "wishlist" folder. Today I found a keyboard for a HP 9816 today > that someone was looking for. I also found a dead Osborne and a bunch of > PS2s. Anyone want some PS2s? model 30, 50, 50 Z, 70 386, 55 and others. > There are two pallet loads and they're located in Orlando Florida. The > owner will probably take $10 -$15 each. NO SHIPPING at that price, he > ownes a business and packing etc just takes too much time. Thanks for keeping your eye out for me as well as other collectors. PS/2, excuse me it seems to sounds too much to keep in mind but really only wanted to give you flexiable choices. Okie, Try these: Model 8570-A61, -A81, -A21, or -A16, maybe one more machine that has MCA scsi controller or netcard using either BNC or 10baseT or both. If seller has that machine that has 8570-Bxx it's model 70 with 486 in it or P75 by chance. I'm looking for decent machine to use for linux for this reason and trying to wash of cheapo junk littering my closet and these two cards to make me happy. To be clearly: Hitlist in this order: P75 has scsi, 70-486, 90 XP (8590-0Jx or -0Kx, scsi feature already in there.) or finally lesser 386 in -Axx series and these cards. Budget: $50 for one or one machine and one P75, or two machines available from those 2 slips, also some tidbit parts to go with them and one 101 keyboard /w status lights w/ or w/o cord. Thanks! Jason D. > I'm looking for a HP 9845 C. > > Joe > > At 08:32 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: > >That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. > > > >Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going > >to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. > >That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. > >Thanks for the help. > > > >>I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There > >>are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may > >>take some time. > >> > >> Joe > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Francois Auradon. > >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > > > > > > From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 15 00:08:36 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <34BD8F7B.8521275D@cnct.com> References: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115000836.009dfbf0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Ward Donald Griffiths III head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Jeez, and the French will store vinegar for 200 years on the slim >chance it might still be wine. (And stupid Americans will pay high >prices for it -- the French won't touch the stuff, they know the >chances!). Properly bottled brandy, yes. Wine, no way. Uh, for the record I usually fall under that "stupid American" moniker, but in this case I do have to admit that a fine French wine turned to vinegar makes some of the best cooking vinegar in the world! Any French[wo]men out there wanna send me a coupla jugs for free, I'll take 'em! ;-) Oh, and I'll take any computers, too (just to keep the thread on track!) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 15 00:16:56 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BD7712.398596D8@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115001656.009d8100@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Ward Donald Griffiths III head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >William Donzelli wrote: >> >> > This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) >> > half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill >> > Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) >> >> I really do not buy this point. Just about every software development >> company I know of uses a revision control system to keep every bit of >> working code that the programmers type out. This includes the hundreds >> of tiny revisions that are made between releases, even the "dead-ends". > >That's _formal, professional_ programmers with systems that support >revision control -- how much of the development for eight-bit micros >was done on systems without such formal structure back in the 70s, >early 80s? -- I'd wager a gagload. Ward, That was the point I was making myself -- Sure you can pick up Linux 1.2.13, but can you get a copy of "Merch's Half-Written CoCo3 OS-9 Level2 (Basic09) Multi-Color, Multi-Window Genealogy Program with Built In Help"??? Thankfully, yes, if you give me a week or so to dig it up! And there's a lot of software for Tandy CoCos (for example -- I'm sure the problem may be rather widespread) that just seems like it cannot be found. Whether it was actually bad code, or expensive code, or whatever, there's a lot of software packages that I've asked around for for quite some time and cannot turn a copy up to beat the band. (For purchase, archiving or otherwise) It's a shame -- Looking at FHL's (Frank Hogg's Laboratories) old ads there was a boatload of software like the Flex OS, 3 or 4 different Basics, COBOL, Pascal, Macro Assemblers / Disassembles, etc. for that OS alone, that may have gone *Poof* and may never be seen again. It would be a shame to lose it like that. Just MHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Jan 15 00:03:32 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb