From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:36:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:22:32 2005 Subject: Any stories of Dayton? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020520163831.0111f910@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520150135.04bffa30@enigma> <20020520183013.42902.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101023615.4aaf06e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:38 PM 5/20/02 -0400, Roger wrote: >Rumor has it that Dan Veeneman may have mentioned these words: >>At 11:30 AM 5/20/02 -0700, Loboyko Steve wrote: > >>>I went, and I was somewhat disappointed. > >[snip] > >>Classic computer hardware, especially the less-common stuff, >>was scarce this year. > >[snip] > >>Bought: > >[snippage of purchased {purloned??? ;-) } stuff...] > >So what you're trying to say is, you got there first, and bought everything >CC-ish out??? ;-) I keep telling you guys that you MUST get there early!!!!! If you wait till opening time to get there then you won't find much, If you're one of those that waits to after lunch to show up then you're wasting your time! If you really want to find stuff, Register as a dealer and go in when they open for dealer setup. I FREQUENTLY leave home at 3AM to be near the front of the dealer line waiting to get in. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:55:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:22:33 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <001801c20046$0db6f500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101025515.4c47fe04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:33 PM 5/20/02 -0600, Dick wrote: >Well ... people who REALLY want to see an old-time (REAL) machine can always >go to a local junk yard and see the rusting hulks in the yard. They hang >around a long time because it's so unprofitable to disassemble the racks, >since there are mixes of plastics, aluminum, and steel, which means labor's >required to make 'em useful. They're not terribly exciting to watch, since >they don't show much evidence of the stuff going on inside. I make a point of looking at the back of as many PCs as possible. I find lots of intersting stuff just by looking for unusual connectors. I picked up a dual head Number Nine video card, HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards in the past week by doing that. Speaking of rusting hulks, Mike was here and spotted two OLD!!!! Bendix computers at one place that we visited. He's going to try buy them. I don't know what they are but they have paper tape readers and a programmers panels on them. Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 03:01:44 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:22:33 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101030144.4aaf62d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:44 PM 5/20/02 -0600, you wrote: >Is the classic computer sources finally drying up to become E-bay >collector items only so most people can't see a real machine anymore? Tell me, how much time did you honestly spend out looking for classic computers within the last week???? I don't mean time spend browsing E-bay or looking at messages on CC list or news-groups. I mean time outside in a scrap yard or some place similar. I don't know you so I can't say how you operate but it's been my experience that most people that complain about not being able to find anything aren't really looking. FWIW I spent 1/2 day one day and about an hour another and found three good PCs; one is a rack mount and besides being usefull for trade it has a loaded Number Nine dual head video card, another had a HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards and the last one is a good working 333 MHz PII with quite decent peripherals. I also picked up a Pentium powered laptop made by DEC, a TRS model 4P with manuals, a nice bench top power supply, a tote bin full of mil-spec wire and quite a few smaller goodies. Joe PS one of the places that we visted had two AS-400s and (I think!) a system 36. None of us were interested in them so I didn't look closely at them. They had two Bendix computers that Mike wants but that's another message. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:36:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:02:01 2005 Subject: Any stories of Dayton? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020520163831.0111f910@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520150135.04bffa30@enigma> <20020520183013.42902.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101023615.4aaf06e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:38 PM 5/20/02 -0400, Roger wrote: >Rumor has it that Dan Veeneman may have mentioned these words: >>At 11:30 AM 5/20/02 -0700, Loboyko Steve wrote: > >>>I went, and I was somewhat disappointed. > >[snip] > >>Classic computer hardware, especially the less-common stuff, >>was scarce this year. > >[snip] > >>Bought: > >[snippage of purchased {purloned??? ;-) } stuff...] > >So what you're trying to say is, you got there first, and bought everything >CC-ish out??? ;-) I keep telling you guys that you MUST get there early!!!!! If you wait till opening time to get there then you won't find much, If you're one of those that waits to after lunch to show up then you're wasting your time! If you really want to find stuff, Register as a dealer and go in when they open for dealer setup. I FREQUENTLY leave home at 3AM to be near the front of the dealer line waiting to get in. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 02:55:15 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:02:05 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <001801c20046$0db6f500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101025515.4c47fe04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:33 PM 5/20/02 -0600, Dick wrote: >Well ... people who REALLY want to see an old-time (REAL) machine can always >go to a local junk yard and see the rusting hulks in the yard. They hang >around a long time because it's so unprofitable to disassemble the racks, >since there are mixes of plastics, aluminum, and steel, which means labor's >required to make 'em useful. They're not terribly exciting to watch, since >they don't show much evidence of the stuff going on inside. I make a point of looking at the back of as many PCs as possible. I find lots of intersting stuff just by looking for unusual connectors. I picked up a dual head Number Nine video card, HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards in the past week by doing that. Speaking of rusting hulks, Mike was here and spotted two OLD!!!! Bendix computers at one place that we visited. He's going to try buy them. I don't know what they are but they have paper tape readers and a programmers panels on them. Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jan 1 03:01:44 1998 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:02:05 2005 Subject: computer sales -- now only on e-bay??? In-Reply-To: <3CE9603D.9379E1CF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19980101030144.4aaf62d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:44 PM 5/20/02 -0600, you wrote: >Is the classic computer sources finally drying up to become E-bay >collector items only so most people can't see a real machine anymore? Tell me, how much time did you honestly spend out looking for classic computers within the last week???? I don't mean time spend browsing E-bay or looking at messages on CC list or news-groups. I mean time outside in a scrap yard or some place similar. I don't know you so I can't say how you operate but it's been my experience that most people that complain about not being able to find anything aren't really looking. FWIW I spent 1/2 day one day and about an hour another and found three good PCs; one is a rack mount and besides being usefull for trade it has a loaded Number Nine dual head video card, another had a HP-IB card and three data acquisition cards and the last one is a good working 333 MHz PII with quite decent peripherals. I also picked up a Pentium powered laptop made by DEC, a TRS model 4P with manuals, a nice bench top power supply, a tote bin full of mil-spec wire and quite a few smaller goodies. Joe PS one of the places that we visted had two AS-400s and (I think!) a system 36. None of us were interested in them so I didn't look closely at them. They had two Bendix computers that Mike wants but that's another message. From donm at cts.com Thu Jan 1 01:09:27 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: MPI-52 as replacement for SA400? In-Reply-To: <34b9fbc9.75972282@hoser> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > Is the SA-400 the standard Northstar floppy drive? I've been running > a Northstar floppy controller in my IMSAI, using just a couple of > plain old IBM-XT floppy drives. I was clued in by someone else on > this list that they would work, and they seem to be fine; even > handling the original hard-sectored diskettes! I was under the > impression that the sectoring was at least in part determined by the > drive, but have been told (and have seen for myself) that this is not > so; it's determined by the controller. Hope this helps! You are correct, Bill. I have substituted a half-high 720k 5.25" drive for the full high 100tpi drive on a 16-hard-sector Vector Graphics quite successfully. > On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:37:37 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > > > > >I've got a Northstar Horizon that I'm starting to restore. The Northstar > >manual indicates that the Northstar disk controller wants to talk to one > >or two SA400s, which sounds about right considering the time period. > > > >Problem is the only SA400s, or similar, that I have are in my SWTPC 6800 > >and I don't want to pull them. I know that the SWTPC will accept an > >MPI-51 as a replacement for an SA400 (but not an SA400 on a controller > >that expects to see MPI-51s since they have a slightly higher step rate). > > > >Could I use an MPI-52, and under what conditions, as a replacement for > >the SA400s that the Northstar wants to see? If so, why? If not, why not? > > > >Thanks... > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > > -Bill Richman > bill_r@inetnebr.com > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. > When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. > When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. > Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." > -www.paranoia.com > - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 01:42:38 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <940ee144.34aae63f@aol.com> Message-ID: > a)I am curious to know what that sed command line _was_ cat filename | sed s/"text to replace"/"replacement text"/g > outfile You can also do sed s/"text to replace"/"replacement text"/g < infile > outfile In my case it was under 40 characters to replace every instance of 1995 with 1997 in a 25mb file. > b)I appreciate Linux's usefulness for networks (I did mention TCP/IP stacks, > remember :), but I see no use in it for anything else. i.e. stuff like word > processing. Since that is the most common computer function today, I would > think Linux would have some utility for it, but all there is is stuff like vi > and EMACS. Why can't Linux folks settle with some MS Word-style program? > First, I don't consider word processing to be a meaningful test of an OS's usefulness. Word processing is probably the most wasteful way ever invented to use personal computers. Sure it's easy but I can word process just as quickly and easily on my old Mac SE as I can on a new 95 box. Second, there are applications...I believe WordPerfect is available for Linux as well as many other WSIWYG programs. I don't use them on my Linux box because I prefer to have it do useful things. Third, I think you need to pick up a copy of Linux Journal as it has listings for commercial software etc. Fourth, let's not underestimate the value of what you call 'TCP/IP Stack' operations. We're not talking about a replacement for Trumpet Winsock here...we're talking about being able to do EVERYTHING that thousands of dollars worth of commercial software can do, do it better and FASTER...for FREE. The financial value of that alone is incalculable when you realize how much of the Internet simply would not have been implemented had it not been for Linux (and other free unix-based OSs). > But wait! I DID try installing a small text editor to run under X. It needed > MOTIF, but said it would run with LessTIF. So, I copy over LessTIF and it > doesn't compile. Neither does the little notepad program, for that matter. All of this software you mention, or equivalents, is readily available on sunsite.unc.edu or other Linux archives in binary form. > That was the end of my last try at Linux, a few months ago. I have a Slackware > Linux CD with Kernels up to 1.3.12. I now have T-1 access, though, so if you > can suggest a system which COULD BE A VIABLE REPLACEMENT FOR MacOS OR WINDOWS, Linux isn't a replacement for MacOS or Windows...it goes FAR BEYOND the capabilities of either. Certainly you can use it for word processing, using the WordPerfect etc mentioned above, but Linux boxes are serious business machines that can represent thousands of dollars in revenues to a business that uses it. It's like saying a Cray could never be useful because you can't run Microsoft Word on it. I don't think it's reasonable to make Word the be-all end-all basis for judging a machine. Keep in mind that there's a trade-off between flexibility and ease-of-use. Linux will never be as easy to install as Windows 95. It isn't intended for that purpose. It's far too powerful and flexible for that and assumes that the user wants to go beyond mere word processing. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 1 01:12:23 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01bd1684$9b600fa0$LocalHost@hotze> >First, I don't consider word processing to be a meaningful test of an >OS'susefulness. Word processing is probably the most wasteful >way ever invented to use personal computers. Sure it's easy but I >can word process just as quickly and easily on my old Mac SE as I >can on a new 95 box. It IS NOT a test of usefulness, but still, it's one of the reasons that has made PC computing popular. Besides, there ARE WORD PROCESSORS AVAIBLE FOR LINUX! Just because billg won't make a word processor for a x86 OS that isn't his doesn't mean that the OS isn't useful. >Second, there are applications...I believe WordPerfect is available for >Linux as well as many other WSIWYG programs. I don't use them on my >Linux box because I prefer to have it do useful things. Yep. Visit their site, and you can download a trial. Also, you can download a beta for the Java version. >Third, I think you need to pick up a copy of Linux Journal as it has >listings for commercial software etc. Where can I get one of those? >Fourth, let's not underestimate the value of what you call 'TCP/IP Stack' >operations. We're not talking about a replacement for Trumpet Winsock >here...we're talking about being able to do EVERYTHING that thousands of >dollars worth of commercial software can do, do it better and >FASTER...for FREE. The financial value of that alone is incalculable >when you realize how much of the Internet simply would not have been >implemented had it not been for Linux (and other free unix-based OSs). It IS an advanced system. That's what happens when you get 500 expert programmers together working cooperatively as their hobby. >> That was the end of my last try at Linux, a few months ago. I have a Slackware >> Linux CD with Kernels up to 1.3.12. I now have T-1 access, though, so if you >> can suggest a system which COULD BE A VIABLE REPLACEMENT FOR MacOS OR WINDOWS, Try OS/2 Warp. But there arn't too many commercial apps. I guess that it's most useful to preven hacking, as no one owns a copy. ;-) >Linux isn't a replacement for MacOS or Windows...it goes FAR BEYOND the >capabilities of either. Certainly you can use it for word processing, >using the WordPerfect etc mentioned above, but Linux boxes are serious >business machines that can represent thousands of dollars in revenues to >a business that uses it. Exactly. PC's also became popular because they could do ANYTHING. But my uses and yours probably are different. I use word processing, (I can type faster than I handwrite), but I also use e-mail, the 'Net, my browser, 3D software, and many other things. >It's like saying a Cray could never be useful because you can't run Microsoft Word on >it. I don't think it's reasonable to make Word the be-all end-all basis for judging a >machine. Exactly. It's one example of a word processor. It's not a standard, just another popular app. If you're going to measue word processing, just look at what the avaible editors CAN DO. >Keep in mind that there's a trade-off between flexibility and >ease-of-use. Linux will never be as easy to install as Windows 95. It >isn't intended for that purpose. It's far too powerful and flexible for >that and assumes that the user wants to go beyond mere word processing. No, it won't. But that doesn't mean that it can't get easy. (Or just not hard) Linux will be here for awhile, and so we've got to live withit. From cgregory at lrbcg.com Thu Jan 1 11:04:50 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 Message-ID: <01bd16d7$5f3aa320$c227a2ce@cliffgre> Anyone have a source for manuals/software for a CBM 8032 /8050 floppy drive? Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 1 11:07:50 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: More adds to collection Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980101110750.006ca4e8@pop3.concentric.net> Happy New Year to All Yesterday I picked up a few more item including this short list, a Sanyo model DM8012CX monitor that works; a LaserWriter II $15; two Kodak Diconix 150 Plus printers for free; LattisNet Model 102 power module and four model 505 transceivers for $15; Mac IIsi shell for free; and few other items. Messages to the those of you that asked about a few things, yes the HP is a model 9114; I will be trading or selling some of the travelmates; I will be getting the Mac KB for the person that asked on Friday I hope. That's it for now Keep Computing. John From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jan 1 11:37:04 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: <940ee144.34aae63f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980101093704.0071eaa4@ferrari.sfu.ca> Read http://www.netaction.org/articles/freesoft.html for a discussion of the importance of free software such as Linux to the infrastructure of the net. Free software and open standards drive creativity and foster a collaborative approach that benefits all. The fastest way to fix bugs in new software is to release the source code to the community. Hmmm, funny MS hasn't done this with Win 95 or NT... Lots of folks got their first computing experience in the PC era, and being victims of media and advertising hype decry free software as substandard. The opposite is true. When substandard software has all the hype and the gigabucks behind it, it unfortunately develops a market force that is all but impossible to stop. Where's Beta rather than VHS these days anyway? Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jan 1 12:04:08 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: Old Zenith luggable In-Reply-To: groberts@mitre.org's message of Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:17:51 -0500 References: <3.0.3.32.19971229061751.0071fc9c@mail90> Message-ID: <199801011804.KAA03586@daemonweed.reanimators.org> groberts@mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) wrote: > i have recently been given an old Zenith laptop model ZFL-181-92. batteries > discharged or dead. no power supply. i would like information if anyone > can help me on what type of power supply to use. the label on the bottom > of the systems says: DC 12 V, Plug-in power supply Model 150-272. Sorry, I don't know the power-supply polarity, but maybe this will give you another thing to look for. I am thinking that HP badge-engineered this model of Zenith as the Vectra Portable CS. The place I worked at the time bought two or three of them to replace a couple of HP 110s that were three or four years old and becoming a data-interchange hassle (different stiffy format, had to get the 9114A and hook it up, Lotus 1A on the 110 vs. 2.x on the desktops (HP Vectra and Vectra ES), those sorts of things). My admittedly dim memories of those fit with the pop-up dual 720KB stiffy drive, and I think there was also a bar graph LCD "fuel gauge" to tell you how much oomph was left in the battery. As I recall it was very IBM-compatible, but then just about anything was compared to the 110s. -Frank McConnell From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 12:22:53 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980101093704.0071eaa4@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > The opposite is true. When substandard software has all the hype and the > gigabucks behind it, it unfortunately develops a market force that is all > but impossible to stop. Where's Beta rather than VHS these days anyway? Well, where I work we have quite a few beta machines! Until this past year, it was the BetaSP machines that did most of the work. (They're still used, but most of the work is done on hard drive now.) It's interesting how the 'mass market' decided VHS was better, yet the professional/broadcast industry stayed with the truly better system. You can see the same thing happen in the computer industry as well. (just to keep this on topic.) > Kevin ttyl srw From pjoules at enterprise.net Thu Jan 1 04:59:31 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <01bd1627$28760240$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Hotze wrote: > > I haven't personally tried it, but a Japanese company had some XT clone > laptops (OK, luggables) which ran Windows 3.x (Maybe it was 3.0, or > 3.1, there's not to awful much of a difference in my mind). Any Windows 3.x is going to be *very* slow on an XT. There is (IMHO) a tremendous difference between 3.0 and 3.1 not just the maintenance release that the version number suggests. As to 3.1 running (walking ;-) on an XT most of them are ruled out because there is no support for CGA, Hercules or MDA, I can't recall off the top of my head if it even supported EGA but I think it did. From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 1 12:47:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971231144857.007cd900@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, John Higginbotham wrote: > It was nice to be able to run a program off one floppy, and never worrying > about running out of memory, even if you only had 128k/256k. But, memory > prices got cheaper, shoot, everything got cheaper, and now we need a > supercomputer just to run a word processor like Word 97. I can understand > utilizing more system resources for new and better (not to mention useful) > features, but it looks to me like people these days are just throwing in > options because they can. That is one special aspect of this hobby. We can marvel at the technical brilliance of machines made just 10 years ago that were a fraction of the speed and had a fraction of the memory and storage of today's computers yet provided the same functionality. This is a realization that only those who lived through that era of computing or those who enjoy this hobby can share. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 1 12:51:57 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Zeus334 wrote: > Er....one question here. I've tried Linux many times, as well as Minix. From > all of my attempts, I have come to the following conclusion: Linux is not for > doing USEFUL things. The express purpose of Linux is to provide something for > people to recompile. After all, you HAVEN'T seen people doing something on > Linux besides recompiling the kernel and configuring TCP/IP stacks, HAVE YOU? Oh come now! You're being silly and you know it. I have a friend who runs a very successful ISP (~1000 customers) entirely on Linux (well, I think he has a SparcServer for news or something). Linux is a better operating system than 95% of the available commercial PC offerings. How useful it is depends on how good you put it to use. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From scottk5 at ibm.net Thu Jan 1 15:55:32 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <01bd1627$28760240$LocalHost@hotze> <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Message-ID: <34AC10D4.27EC@ibm.net> Regarding interesting OS's that run on XT's: Amstrad shipped a little GUI with it's PC1512's and 1640's called GEM. It requires two 360K drives and 640K, I think. Cliff Lawson has it in a file area off of his Amstrad web page http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/info.htm It's very similar looking to GEOS for the c64. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 1 12:57:17 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:00 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Wirehead Prime wrote: > In 1993 I started an ISP around $500, a 386 box cobbled together from > friends' spare junk and Linux...today that ISP is statewide, owns all its > hardware, has no debts and pays me twice the median income in my state, I > own my home and have the leisure time in the evenings to correct folks' > misconceptions about the usefulness of Linux. Why? Because of Linux, > it's flexibility, it's cost (FREE) and it's reliability. Need any more be said? PS. Very commendable, Anthony! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 14:20:11 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Er....one question here. I've tried Linux many times, as well as Minix. From > > all of my attempts, I have come to the following conclusion: Linux is not for > > doing USEFUL things. The express purpose of Linux is to provide something for > > people to recompile. After all, you HAVEN'T seen people doing something on > > Linux besides recompiling the kernel and configuring TCP/IP stacks, HAVE YOU? > > Oh come now! You're being silly and you know it. I have a friend who > runs a very successful ISP (~1000 customers) entirely on Linux (well, I > think he has a SparcServer for news or something). Linux is a better > operating system than 95% of the available commercial PC offerings. How > useful it is depends on how good you put it to use. Sam I think your response is more level-headed than mine was. I tend to get a bit emotional on New Years Eve. Ah well... At any rate, I'm always amused by the 1 in a 100 phone call from a Linux customer who wants to connect to my ISP. "Yeah, I installed this Slackware CD and I'd like to dial in with Linux...how do I do it?" which always sounds to me a bit like "Yeah, I'm sittin' up here in this here Space Shuttle...how do I light this baby up?" because they've skipped over so many steps, before calling me, that I don't even know where to begin. "Do you know how to edit text?" "Well I was looking for EDIT but it's not here..." "Well, you'll need to use something like vi or EMACS." "What?" "You'll need to edit a script to do the dialing and ppp connection." "Can't I just do it in the control panel?" "There is no control panel." "Ok type vi..." "I did it said ' bash: VI: command not found'" "ummmm....it should be there..." because I can't see their screen It just becomes such a total nightmare that I don't even know how to begin. These folks have gotten so used to total hand-holding from software vendors that it is virtually impossible for them to shift paradigm into an environment that is pre-emptive multi-tasking/multi-user with different access levels etc etc etc and where the way you learn about the system is to find ways to answer your own questions, read HOWTO files and read books that don't have the specific name of your OS on the cover. Linux isn't a replacement for 95, NT or Macintosh...it's a STEP UP to a higher level of computing, which necessitates that the user take a step up in their techniques for learning about the system. Unfortunately, I fear that the 'blackbox computing' market has bred it out of most people. Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 13:18:12 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Message-ID: Windows 3.0 would run on an XT with CGA and 640k RAM. I know because I did it. Unfortunately, I threw out my box and docs years ago. (Still have the disks, though.) Windows 3.1: The box says it needs a 286+ (386sx recommended), 640k+256k extended, EGA/VGA/SVGA/XGA/8514A/Hercules. I know because I'm looking at the box as I type. > tremendous difference between 3.0 and 3.1 not just the maintenance New features in 3.1 (from the Getting Started book): Truetype fonts OLE New File Manager Drag and Drop Online Tutorial Printing Enhancements New Multimedia Features (media player, sound recorder, wave/MIDI in control panel) Additional Features and Enhancements (4 pages including improved MS-DOS app support, Network enhancements, new desktop features-including screen savers, other minor stuff) Performance Improvements (progman uses less memory, winfile is faster, dos app in a box better on a 386, printing faster/more efficient, Disk caching more integrated.) From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 13:25:48 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > "You'll need to edit a script to do the dialing and ppp connection." > "Can't I just do it in the control panel?" > "There is no control panel." Well, I know a lot of old Slackware believers dislike RedHat, but RedHat does have a GUI control panel from which you can configure the ppp connection (among other things.) Maybe you should recomment RedHat to those people. > "Ok type vi..." > "I did it said ' bash: VI: command not found'" > "ummmm....it should be there..." because I can't see their screen Then again, maybe you should recommend Win95. > Wirehead - Anthony Clifton ttyl srw From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 14:44:38 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Reminiscing WAS Re: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > In 1993 I started an ISP around $500, a 386 box cobbled together from > > friends' spare junk and Linux...today that ISP is statewide, owns all its > > hardware, has no debts and pays me twice the median income in my state, I > > own my home and have the leisure time in the evenings to correct folks' > > misconceptions about the usefulness of Linux. Why? Because of Linux, > > it's flexibility, it's cost (FREE) and it's reliability. > > PS. Very commendable, Anthony! Thanks Sam. For your amusement I'll tell you the ORIGINAL plan! It's not on the website at http://www.retrocomputing.com. In 1991 and 1992 I started to formulate the idea, which I had not previously read anywhere (although I wasn't the first to think of it), that Internet access could be provided to the masses and that money could be made from this. Problem was...networking hardware and multi-user systems were VERY expensive...who could afford 5 figures for a DecStation or something similar? But older Vaxen (780s, 750s and so on) were starting to show up 'Free to a good home'. So our plan was to drive across country, to New Hampshire if I recall, to pick up a 780, another 780 still in boxes, and an PDP-11/70. These would be driven back in a U-Haul and placed in a back room someplace with adequate power. We felt we could make it work because we'd cobbled together an 11/34A from a bizarre array of parts...it had RL02s, it had RK07s (which are a BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*tch to carry up three flights of stairs), it had a TU-11(?), with a MacIIx or fx for a terminal. =-) It ran some flavor of RSTS and we had all sorts of fun putting a modem on it and telling our college buddies about this "Defense Department mainframe we'd hacked into at such and such a phone number" and then playing with their minds when they dialed into it. Around that time I saw a friend's machine running some early flavor of FreeBSD or NetBSD or SomethingBSD I decided that it could be done on Intel boxes. All my friends...including the guy who built the 11/34A with me...laughed at the idea. Well here I am today and the guy who helped with the 11/34 is running a competing ISP up to its EARS in debt because he did everything with off-the-shelf workstations. Frankly, I think he was just humoring me on the 'pick up the 11/780s' idea and wanted to see if I'd actually suffer through the experience. Speaking of the 11/34, the guy whose apartment we built it in later decided he didn't want it anymore so another friend and I went over and salvaged what we could as he hauled it down to the dumpster (had a falling out over that) and the controller for the tape drive got left in my friend's car (HE'S STILL a friend) but he didn't realize it until later. Later he sees it and takes it into his dorm room but doesn't have a safe place to put it so he lifts up one of the false ceiling tiles and sets it up there, which I didn't know until AFTER he'd vacated the room, graduated and moved home. So....if anyone needs a controller for a TU-11(?) I know where one is if you want to do a little breaking and entering...OR...try explaining to what will be a very confused-looking college student why you need to go into their room and look in the ceiling. =-) [BTW, for those doing the math I spent a few EXTRA years in college when I realized that teaching physics to high school students is not terribly lucrative nor will the state education folks back you up if you get sued for breaking up a fight between students...IE having to knock a student down to keep someone from getting killed. That happened to another teacher while I was doing my student teaching. The very next semester I switched to Computer Science. I'm 29 now.] [I graduated, finally, in May '94. The friend I mentioned didn't graduate until the following year. But in Fall '94 he walks into a Comp Sci class first day and the prof starts telling this story about how the previous spring he'd finally graduated the last student who was at (Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa) who was there before the University had Macintoshes. The prof was my advisor and he was talking about me. =) In fact, I recall when there was only an 11/780 and VT102s and some fungo work-alike with a horrible keyboard. I still have one of those VT102s.] Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 1 13:39:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801011939.AA07110@world.std.com> <> I haven't personally tried it, but a Japanese company had some XT clo <> laptops (OK, luggables) which ran Windows 3.x (Maybe it was 3.0, or <> 3.1, there's not to awful much of a difference in my mind). 3.0 still had support for 808x(xt class) machines. I know as it have 3.0. 3.1 besides enhancements and structureal improvements dropped support for 8086 though it runs on 286 and above. < Message-ID: Help! =-) I need to acquire a Northstar boot disk (CP/M) for a Horizon with an MDS-AD3 controller. It's also got a Disk Jockey IID/B. I have all the documentation for the machine just no boot disks. BTW, this is not the crusty one mentioned on http://www.retrocomputing.com. It's another one I purchased complete. Although, having a working one as a template gives me better feelings about trying to resurrect the crusty Northstar. We'll see. Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 14:21:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34AC10D4.27EC@ibm.net> References: <01bd1627$28760240$LocalHost@hotze> <34AB7713.786C50F1@enterprise.net> Message-ID: >Regarding interesting OS's that run on XT's: > >Amstrad shipped a little GUI with it's PC1512's and 1640's called GEM. It >requires two >360K drives and 640K, I think. Cliff Lawson has it in a file area off of >his Amstrad web >page > >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/info.htm > >It's very similar looking to GEOS for the c64. > >Kirk Scott >scottk5@ibm.net If you're talking about the GEM I think you're talking about. Wasn't it licensed from Digital Research? GEM is also the basis for the 16 & 32-bit Atari's. I just can't remember at this point if the PC version ran on DOS, or if it required CP/M to run. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 14:16:14 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Scott Walde wrote: >Well, I know a lot of old Slackware believers dislike RedHat, but RedHat >does have a GUI control panel from which you can configure the ppp >connection (among other things.) Maybe you should recomment RedHat to >those people. Wow, I'm one of those old Slackware believers, I only switched to it after SLS was seriously dead and outdated, before that I was doing it prior to any distribution, just using the Boot/Root disks that were available at the time, and downloading the pieces. Having said that, I think the next time I decide to set up a new version of Linux I'll take RedHat for a spin. Just because I've used the Slackware distribution for the last 3-4 years doesn't mean I like to do things the hard way, it's more like inertia (i.e. I'm used to installing it, and can do it without thinking). What I really like is how easy X-Windows has become to configure. I remember the nightmare I had setting up Xega, back when that was the only way to run X if you didn't have an ET4000 based video card! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 15:32:17 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Northstar Boot Disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW, if availability of hard-sectored media is the issue, I will arrange to provide some. I'm sure I can dig up something appropriate. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > Help! =-) > > I need to acquire a Northstar boot disk (CP/M) for a Horizon with an > MDS-AD3 controller. It's also got a Disk Jockey IID/B. I have all the > documentation for the machine just no boot disks. > > BTW, this is not the crusty one mentioned on http://www.retrocomputing.com. > It's another one I purchased complete. Although, having a working one as > a template gives me better feelings about trying to resurrect the crusty > Northstar. We'll see. > > Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 1 15:40:23 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Wow, I'm one of those old Slackware believers, I only switched to it after > SLS was seriously dead and outdated, before that I was doing it prior to > I've still got an old Slackware install (3 year old install) with kernel 1.1.59 running a mail server, domain name server (about 100 domains) and routing a couple megabits of traffic from one ethernet board to another. Slackware is just a rock-solid product. > Having said that, I think the next time I decide to set up a new version of > Linux I'll take RedHat for a spin. Just because I've used the Slackware > distribution for the last 3-4 years doesn't mean I like to do things the > You might consider Caldera Network Desktop. It's easy to install, they have telephone tech support (which is nice if you're trying to figure out why X won't work with this or that video card) and at $99-$129 the price really isn't too bad for what you get. Plus it comes with Netscape and RealAudio these days and can do so much out of the box, it's quite fun. > What I really like is how easy X-Windows has become to configure. I > remember the nightmare I had setting up Xega, back when that was the only > way to run X if you didn't have an ET4000 based video card! The nicest video card is some Trident unit with 1m of ram...a buddy is going to give me a nice SVGA card of some sort, which he says will make X fun and pleasant for me. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: BTW, Linux is a GREAT environment for running emulators. You can find some by going to http://www.retrocomputing.com/software.html. Ok, it's shameless self-promotion but it's not like I'm making money off it. =-) From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jan 1 14:50:22 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Regarding interesting OS's that run on XT's: > >If you're talking about the GEM I think you're talking about. Wasn't it >licensed from Digital Research? GEM is also the basis for the 16 & 32-bit >Atari's. I just can't remember at this point if the PC version ran on DOS, >or if it required CP/M to run. The GEM I have runs on DOS. (I also have a copy of GEM for the Tandy2000, but my T2000 doesn't have enough RAM to run it.) Yes, it was Digital Research. Back in my Desktop Publishing days, I ran Ventura Publisher under runtime GEM on top of DOS. I also seriously looked at GEMDraw, but rather picked a new drawing package that ran on Windows 2.11 called CorelDraw :-) Little did I know that years later Corel would buy Ventura Publisher. ttyl srw From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jan 1 15:18:45 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B Message-ID: <01bd16fa$d7f2f1a0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 1 17:22:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Old Zenith luggable In-Reply-To: <199801011804.KAA03586@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.3.32.19971229061751.0071fc9c@mail90> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980101172201.0fff6f32@intellistar.net> At 10:04 AM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >groberts@mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) wrote: >> i have recently been given an old Zenith laptop model ZFL-181-92. batteries >> discharged or dead. no power supply. i would like information if anyone >> can help me on what type of power supply to use. the label on the bottom >> of the systems says: DC 12 V, Plug-in power supply Model 150-272. > >Sorry, I don't know the power-supply polarity, but maybe this will give >you another thing to look for. I used to have one. I THINK the center contact was +. This is this opposite of most coaxial connectors. I'm sure the charger was 12VDC. It should be easy to open the battery pack and see what the polarity is. Voltage isn't critical with NiCads as long as the charge rate is kept down to C/10 rate or less. I know of HPs that charge a three cell NICad pack ( 3.6 V) at 16 volts with no problems. > >I am thinking that HP badge-engineered this model of Zenith as the >Vectra Portable CS. The place I worked at the time bought two or >three of them to replace a couple of HP 110s that were three or four >years old and becoming a data-interchange hassle (different stiffy >format, had to get the 9114A and hook it up, Lotus 1A on the 110 >vs. 2.x on the desktops (HP Vectra and Vectra ES), those sorts of >things). My admittedly dim memories of those fit with the pop-up dual >720KB stiffy drive, and I think there was also a bar graph LCD "fuel >gauge" to tell you how much oomph was left in the battery. > >As I recall it was very IBM-compatible, but then just about anything >was compared to the 110s. > Zenith prided itself on being totally IBM compatable. They used to have a team that did nothing but resolve incompatability problems. I remember reading how they found one SW package that looked for the letters I B M in the BIOS and wouldn't run it they weren't there. They even found a fix for that. >-Frank McConnell > From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 1 17:02:25 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801012302.SAA20887@server1.netpath.net> At 02:39 PM 1/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > >3.0 supports all, so does 3.1. The way I remember it is this way: CGA, EGA, and Herc are supported by 3.0 and below, but if you want to run them on 3.1/3.11, you need to download the drivers from microsoft. (Either that, or I had some screwed up install disks). I figure they were think "Who'd want to install 3.1/3.11 on something so slow???" - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 1 17:40:24 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-01 18:07:53 EST, you write: << CGA, EGA, and Herc are supported by 3.0 and below, but if you want to run them on 3.1/3.11, you need to download the drivers from microsoft. (Either that, or I had some screwed up install disks). I figure they were think "Who'd want to install 3.1/3.11 on something so slow???" >> actually, the drivers are present for ega on 3.1 version. just run \windows\setup and change to ega. i tried it just for kicks one time, and didnt notice much difference except for the splash screen. dialog boxes and program manager looked almost identical. david From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 1 19:07:45 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B In-Reply-To: <01bd16fa$d7f2f1a0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980101190745.0093f770@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Bill Girnius head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a >stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted? I'm quite sure that there is a boot disk that's needed as well, but I could never get my Jr's to spew out video very well... :-( HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From wpe at interserv.com Thu Jan 1 18:27:43 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems References: Message-ID: <34AC347E.D8F84AF3@interserv.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, John Higginbotham wrote: > > > It was nice to be able to run a program off one floppy, and never worrying > > about running out of memory, even if you only had 128k/256k. FWIW, I've got a DEC PDT-11 (Haven't touched it in years, due to space constraints) that didn't have enough memory to load BASIC off floppy.. (no clue off'a the top of my head what it's memory size is...) Gawd, I gotta get that thing out, hitch it up to a terminal, and see iff'n it'll still boot... Happy New Year to all the subscribers to the list! Will From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 1 18:40:19 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801020040.TAA25063@server1.netpath.net> Yeah. EGA is pretty much the same as standard VGA (where windows is concerned). The colors (to me) look alot richer and more vibrant on an EGA. Maybe they just ditched the CGA/Herc drivers then. At 06:40 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote: >actually, the drivers are present for ega on 3.1 version. just run >\windows\setup and change to ega. i tried it just for kicks one time, and >didnt notice much difference except for the splash screen. dialog boxes and >program manager looked almost identical. > >david > - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 1 19:16:28 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801020116.AA27165@world.std.com> A side note: Anyone looking for info/downloads of different OS'es might want to take a look at: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/bridges/oses.html They have a rather exhaustive list of some real odd-balls... Les From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 1 19:31:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801020131.AA04701@world.std.com> Message-ID: I'm looking for a Unibus SCSI controller for the PDP-11/84 that I'm retrieving next week so I can run small modern drives on it instead of the power sucking RA-8x series drives it currently has. Anyone out there with one? If not, and you hear of one, let me know. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Jan 1 18:06:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: More adds to collection In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980101110750.006ca4e8@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <199801020501.AAA20282@mail.cgocable.net> Oh shucks, no personal reply email address, So... Asking price on each Travelmates 2k "as is" of your offering? Thanks! It's great portable for weight + size of display but poor on cpu. But that would be wonderful WP only portable. Jason D. > Happy New Year to All > Yesterday I picked up a few more item including this short list, a Sanyo > model DM8012CX monitor that works; a LaserWriter II $15; two Kodak Diconix > 150 Plus printers for free; LattisNet Model 102 power module and four model > 505 transceivers for $15; Mac IIsi shell for free; and few other items. > Messages to the those of you that asked about a few things, yes the HP is a > model 9114; I will be trading or selling some of the travelmates; I will be > getting the Mac KB for the person that asked on Friday I hope. That's it > for now Keep Computing. John > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 1 23:37:34 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Unibus SCSI controller for PDP-11/84 In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 1, 98 11:48:47 pm Message-ID: <9801020537.AA02383@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 738 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980101/6fea7b6a/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 1 23:55:56 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Unibus SCSI controller for PDP-11/84 In-Reply-To: <9801020537.AA02383@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 1, 98 09:37:34 pm Message-ID: <9801020555.AA02414@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980101/c38d37a4/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 20:50:49 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801020125.UAA179058@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: >A side note: >Anyone looking for info/downloads of different OS'es might >want to take a look at: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/bridges/oses.html > >They have a rather exhaustive list of some real odd-balls... > >Les Thank You for this info! After just a quick look I've found info I've been wondering where I could find it, but haven't found the time to look. This looks to be a great page! Lot of stuff not there, but still a great page. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 20:42:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I've still got an old Slackware install (3 year old install) with kernel >1.1.59 running a mail server, domain name server (about 100 domains) and >routing a couple megabits of traffic from one ethernet board to another. >Slackware is just a rock-solid product. I'm definitely not saying it isn't rock-solid. The copy running my server is about two years old, although the kernal was upgraded to 2.0.x so I could run netatalk since I initially wanted to use it as an Appletalk server. Still does that, but does a lot of other stuff also now, of course it's just for personal use. I use it to tie my various old computers together and transfer software I've gotten off of the Internet to them. >You might consider Caldera Network Desktop. It's easy to install, they >have telephone tech support (which is nice if you're trying to figure out >why X won't work with this or that video card) and at $99-$129 the price >really isn't too bad for what you get. Plus it comes with Netscape and >RealAudio these days and can do so much out of the box, it's quite fun. I've seriously considered Caldera. Although I can't be bothered with phone support, and I do my surfing from a Macintosh. I like it's looks because of the X-Windows desktop that comes with it. I think it's called LookingGlass and is a commercial product. I've used it before, and it's about the best I've used for X-Windows. I've always found the support from the newsgroups to be excellent, although I've not had to do that for several years. >The nicest video card is some Trident unit with 1m of ram...a buddy is >going to give me a nice SVGA card of some sort, which he says will make X >fun and pleasant for me. I've actually got a Trident with 512k in the server, it's run X in 256 colours since late '92 or early '93, but isn't fun. The Pentium 133 I use for Linux has a 2Mb Diamand {something} 2000, and is quite nice. The only reason I own that card though is because it was cheap, and OPENSTEP supports it (I built the system to run OPENSTEP). If you are running X you want a good card, X in 16million colours is beautiful! If you want something really wild try the enlightenment window manager, but be forwarned it wants a fast system. X also really wants the system to have more than 16Mb of RAM. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From scottk5 at ibm.net Fri Jan 2 02:00:48 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <199801020606.GAA49730@out4.ibm.net> A friend of mine dumped a small, meant-to-be-rack-mounted box that is marked as a Hewlett Packard 9000 220, (model 9920-A). It has several cards inside including a composite video car, a color output card, and one meant for the keyboard. I tried to find out something about it but haven't gotten very far, there were a few references to the auxiliary cards in articles posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware. It appears to be a 286 workstation maybe, and will boot, but I can't make out the prompts, since it won't sync on the only composite monitor I have with BNC input. Can anyone shed some light on this thing and what cann be done with it? Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Fri Jan 2 00:09:30 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: MAI ? Message-ID: <01bd1744$fd032a60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have acquired a system marked "MAI Basic Four Information System", Model 4105, Tustin California. It's not working. CPU is a Z80 and it has 2 5 1/4" floppy drives. It's sort of sleek looking and the keyboard clips to the front, but there's no way it could be described a luggable. There are no handles and its much heavier than an Osborne 1 or Compaq. Does anyone have any background on this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980102/74673488/attachment.html From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 2 00:29:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: MAI ? In-Reply-To: <01bd1744$fd032a60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Olminkhof wrote: > I have acquired a system marked "MAI Basic Four Information System", > Model 4105, Tustin California. It's not working. > CPU is a Z80 and it has 2 5 1/4" floppy drives. It's sort of sleek > looking and the keyboard clips to the front, but there's no way it could > be described a luggable. There are no handles and its much heavier than > an Osborne 1 or Compaq. I have a similar system but don't know much about it. I was told it is a multi-user CP/M system. Don't have much more information. I acquired it several months ago and shelved it until I have time to play. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 2 00:51:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801020606.GAA49730@out4.ibm.net> Message-ID: >A friend of mine dumped a small, meant-to-be-rack-mounted box that is >marked as a Hewlett Packard 9000 220, (model 9920-A). It has several cards >inside including a composite video car, a color output card, and one >meant for the keyboard. I tried to find out something about it but haven't >gotten very far, there were a few references to the auxiliary cards in >articles posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware. It appears to be a 286 workstation >maybe, and will boot, but I can't make out the prompts, since it won't sync >on the only composite monitor I have with BNC input. > >Can anyone shed some light on this thing and what cann be done with it? HP 9000's are PA-RISC based UNIX workstations running HP-UX. It probably wants an HP monitor. I've seen Sun keyboards used on them, but am not sure if a special mod is required for this. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 03:30:03 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801020606.GAA49730@out4.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102033003.62f7e7b6@intellistar.net> Kirk, I have one sitting in my dining room! It's one of the HP 9000 200 series computers (9826 aka 9000 216, 9836 aka 9000 236, 9000/220, etc). They were replaced with the 9000 300 series and those have been replaced in turn. They date to the early '80s and use a 10 Mhz 68000 CPU. Like most HPs, the hardware and software are both unique to them. Languages for them included disk based BASIC, Pascal and something called HPL. HP offered a lot of different cards for them including BASIC and Pascal in ROM (both very rare), 16 bit parallel intrfaces called GPIO (General Purpose I/O), several different HP-IB interfaces, RS-232 interfaces and lots of LAN type cards. Memory boards were available in 64K, 256K, 1 Meg and 4 Meg sizes. 256 K are by far the most common. When it boots, it will list the installed memory and devices. In case, you haven't guessed everything is interfaced via HP-IB. HP-IB allows several buses per system and up to 32 devices per bus. Each item on a bus has a "select code" between 1 and 32. When the system boots you will see things like "98622 at 12". That means that it found a HP 98622 board at address 12 on the internal HP-IB bus. The 98622 is a GPIO board. Look at the covers on the back. You'll see the part numbers on them and usually they will have the select code marked on them as well. There are two columns of eight expansion slots on the back. BUT you will only see four metal covers in each column! Some cards do not have a metal plate and some do. You may remove a plate with it's attached card and find another card under the same plate but not attached to it. ( I hope that makes sense.) Memory boards do not have metal covers. Interface boards do. Video: Yeap, typical HP, it uses a non-standard video output. I doubt you'll find a monitor that will work on it except the proper HP one. If you send me the part number from the video card I'll tell you which monitors will work with it. More about HP-IB: There sould be a connector for an external HP-IB bus on the back. It will probably be on the same card as the keyboard connection. It will look like a Centronics connector (the same type as a parallel printer uses) except it will only use 24 pins. And before I get flamed, yes I know it's actually an Amphenol connector but in the computer industry they're known as Centronics connectors because that's what Centronics used and they made most of the early printers. These systems did not have any internal disk drives, they were all external and were connected via HP-IB, as were the printers. (You could connect a serial printer to a RS-232 port, but I've never seen it done.) The keyboard interface is also non-standard. There are two different HP key baords that can be used on it but I don't have the numbers handy. If you decide to get rid of it, I'd like to have it. I have a 9000 /220, two 9826s and a 9836. Joe Joe At 02:00 AM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >A friend of mine dumped a small, meant-to-be-rack-mounted box that is >marked as a Hewlett Packard 9000 220, (model 9920-A). It has several cards >inside including a composite video car, a color output card, and one >meant for the keyboard. I tried to find out something about it but haven't >gotten very far, there were a few references to the auxiliary cards in >articles posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware. It appears to be a 286 workstation >maybe, and will boot, but I can't make out the prompts, since it won't sync >on the only composite monitor I have with BNC input. > >Can anyone shed some light on this thing and what cann be done with it? > >Kirk Scott >scottk5@ibm.net > > > > > >Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 2 02:58:04 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01bd175c$8a413040$LocalHost@hotze> >Uh, PC's can do _anything_? Kewl. Set up an IBM PC with 64K RAM, 1 35-track >SSDD Floppy drive, run a multi-user, multi-tasking operating system on it, >and still have enough RAM/Floppy room left over to actually do something >*useful*. Lemme know when it's done. My CoCo in the next room is set up to >do just that. I'm calling anything that's smaller than a mini a PC. >Oh, and BTW: I can do *everything* you listed above on my Atari 1040STf... >albeit not as quickly as my Cyrix box (but there *is* a reason why I >overclocked it!! ;-) but anything possible on today's Pentium machines can >be done right now by machines at least 10 years old... sometimes better! Yep. By the way, what's the best way to overclock a Cyrix? >>No, it won't. But that doesn't mean that it can't get easy. (Or just not >>hard) Linux will be here for awhile, and so we've got to live withit. > >Linux isn't hard. My first install with _no_ Linux experience took just >over an hour to install... and when I was done, (with only the initial >kernal boot) it was useful. My latest Win95 install took me almost 6 hours >to get it working somewhat -- ButtPlug-n-play chose the wrong Ethernet >cards -- but after 3 reboots the wrong drivers (I tried putting in the >right drivers -- NT doesn't even mind being helped along, but 95 whacked >the right ones and reinstalled the wrong ones) started working marginally. >Two more reboots to get the SCSI card working with the scanner, A reboot to >get the screen at the correct resolution / color depth, and 2 more reboots >after software installs that required it. You made a couple mistakes... there arn't MS salesmen here, so don't say PLUG AND PLAY, it's Plug & Pray. What version of Linux is that? >Granted, Linux isn't an ooey-gooey with pretty pictures, and as such one >might require 1/2 a brain to use it -- my personal opinion -- good. Keep >all the idio-er-users with a brainless box... Yes, but ease of use is important to some. > >"Uh, my daughter just downloaded our entire computer onto a disk. How do I >get it back and boot it?" Duh..... >Not to sound like a shit-fer-brains, but my holiday is better spent talking >to you guys & gals than spending 6 hours on the phone talking to a lady who >specifically told me "I don't want to learn anything about my new computer >-- I just want to get on the Internet." -- My boss specifically forbade me >to answer those types of calls anyway ('cause I usually like to be helpful >to newbies) and I don't get my regular work done. Tell 'em what I do: (The other day, I e-mailed a friend who was new to the 'Net, then they replied via e-mail and asked what my e-mail address was.) Then refer them to the convinetly located Online Help, made by someone who had a little to much of whatever they had an overstock of at the bar and now have a shortage of, then designed the manual, found on all MS-OSes. >Yep, Win95 is the NOS for her! (NOS stands for Non-Operating System). But I >digress... Well, it would help if she actually thought. I mean, don't you guies include a manual, like my ISP, that specifically tells you WHERE TO CLICK AND WHEN? ;-) > > >Sorry for the rambling, Have yourselves a joyous and prosperous '98, and >keep those geezers computing!!!! :-) We will.... and don't foget, that means that there are less than 365 days for Windows 98 to be late again. ;-) BTW, does anyone have a spare 14.4 modem? (For x86, preferably NOT a Winmodem) Tim D. Hotze From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Jan 2 06:25:51 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980101093704.0071eaa4@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <940ee144.34aae63f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980102072551.00b1d1e4@mail.wincom.net> At 09:37 AM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >Read http://www.netaction.org/articles/freesoft.html for a discussion of >the importance of free software such as Linux to the infrastructure of the >net. > >Free software and open standards drive creativity and foster a >collaborative approach that benefits all. > >The fastest way to fix bugs in new software is to release the source code >to the community. Hmmm, funny MS hasn't done this with Win 95 or NT... > >Lots of folks got their first computing experience in the PC era, and being >victims of media and advertising hype decry free software as substandard. >The opposite is true. When substandard software has all the hype and the >gigabucks behind it, it unfortunately develops a market force that is all >but impossible to stop. Where's Beta rather than VHS these days anyway? > >Kevin > > > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > What killed Beta, in my opinion, was the mechanical inferiority of the early machines. The added drag of the tape being wrapped around the drum made it nearly impossible to rewind a tape to the beginning. I have three old Beta decks that suffered from this ailment, but my two later models are great. Cheers Charlie Fox From scottk5 at ibm.net Fri Jan 2 09:24:14 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <199801021330.NAA37702@out5.ibm.net> On 1998-01-02 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to scottk5@ibm.net >Kirk, >I have one sitting in my dining room! It's one of the HP 9000 200 >series computers (9826 aka 9000 216, 9836 aka 9000 236, 9000/220, >etc). (Much really helpful information snipped here...) Video: Yeap, typical HP, it uses a >non-standard video output. I doubt you'll find a monitor that will >work on it except the proper HP one. If you send me the part >number from the video card I'll tell you which monitors will work >with it. There are two video output cards; a 98204A, marked composite video; and a 98627A, marked color output. The only monitor I have with RGB and sync BNC ports is a 19" Taxan 980, wonder if that will work? More about HP-IB: There sould be a connector for an >external HP-IB bus on the back. It will probably be on the same >card as the keyboard connection. It will look like a Centronics >connector (the same type as a parallel printer uses) except it will >only use 24 pins. Yes, it's there, but is the keyboard connector the RG-45 looking one? There is also another BNC connector on the same card. >If you decide to get rid of it, I'd like to have it. Thanks a lot for the info, and if I start to think I'm in way over my head with this thing I'll give you first dibs on it. Now I'm wondering what my friend Rick did with the rest of it?!?!?!? Thanks again, Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From brian at jhu.edu Fri Jan 2 08:51:11 1998 From: brian at jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Need: Unibus SCSI controller for PDP-11/84 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > I'm looking for a Unibus SCSI controller for the PDP-11/84 that I'm > retrieving next week so I can run small modern drives on it instead of > the power sucking RA-8x series drives it currently has. Have you considered switching to RA-7x types instead? They've got that handy 5.25" form factor and can be gotten for much less than the $500-$600 that dealers seem to want for a SCSI controller. I'm thinking about trying to use them to replace some RA-81s I have on a Microvax II, and to add some more storage to an 11/84 that's currently running off of RL02s. -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Library Network Guy Johns Hopkins University brian@musicbox.mse.jhu.edu From SouthPork at aol.com Fri Jan 2 09:19:04 1998 From: SouthPork at aol.com (SouthPork) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PC Jr. owner Message-ID: <32071a75.34ad056a@aol.com> I have two PC Jr. that I no longer use, but refuse to just throw away. Also, I have 15+ orig software probrams for the jr. Can you put me in contact with others who might want some for the stuff. I collect Macintohs Classic's and would like to trade. If you want I can sent a list of the software and equipment I have. Thanks, Tom -- SouthPork@aol.com From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jan 2 10:20:38 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: PC Jr. owner Message-ID: <01bd179a$5cf4ee40$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I have 3 of these units now, I had no idea they were so common. But I am interested in purchaseing all your software/carts. -----Original Message----- From: SouthPork To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 9:20 AM Subject: PC Jr. owner >I have two PC Jr. that I no longer use, but refuse to just throw away. Also, I >have 15+ orig software probrams for the jr. Can you put me in contact with >others who might want some for the stuff. I collect Macintohs Classic's and >would like to trade. If you want I can sent a list of the software and >equipment I have. > >Thanks, > >Tom >-- SouthPork@aol.com > From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 11:28:06 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <221511bc.34ad23a9@aol.com> I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if there was a PC version or port for DOS? From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jan 2 11:39:28 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy"'s message of Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:51:55 -0800 References: Message-ID: <199801021739.JAA18088@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > HP 9000's are PA-RISC based UNIX workstations running HP-UX. Um, no. Well, if you buy a new one you will get a PA-RISC CPU but that is not historically true. You need to look at the series number to figure out what the CPU is: 500 - FOCUS (HP-proprietary 32-bit stack machine) 200 - 680[01]0 300 - 680[1234]0 (I think the 310 was the only 68010-based series 300) 800 - PA-RISC 400 - 68040 700 - PA-RISC I think these days there is also a Series 600 that is PA-RISC and a "T500" that is PA-RISC. Some of these also have HP 9xxx numbers besides the "9000 Series xxx" designation. If you go back and look at how they were originally sold, the "HP 9000" was briefly just the FOCUS-based systems, which eventually became the HP 9000 Series 520, 530, 540, and 550, and I think I have seen references to the 9000 Series 520 as the "HP 9020". The HP 9000 Series 226 and 236 were originally sold as the HP 9826 and HP 9836; I believe there was some sort of upgrade involved for the 9836 that made it capable of running HP-UX (in addition to the original BASIC, Pascal, and HPL). -Frank McConnell From cgregory at lrbcg.com Fri Jan 2 11:58:18 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <01bd17a8$0183c780$cb27a2ce@cliffgre> I'm sure it was ported to many platforms. I have a copy (1982) made for the Atari 800XL. Even still has the original price sticker on the box, $179.95 (wow). Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 1:35 PM Subject: Visicalc > >Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1] by LRBCG.COM with smtp > id ANCDCBAG ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:35:32 -0500 >Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id JAA27586; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:31:49 -0800 >Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id JAA29210 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:31:45 -0800 >Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) > by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id JAA32074 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:31:45 -0800 >Message-Id: <221511bc.34ad23a9@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:28:06 EST >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Zeus334 >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Visicalc >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if >there was a PC version or port for DOS? > From TOwad at aol.com Fri Jan 2 12:04:15 1998 From: TOwad at aol.com (T Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <1184192e.34ad2c22@aol.com> Are you still interested in selling Visicalc for the Apple II and the other stuff? I'm interested. Sincerely, Tom >I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if >there was a PC version or port for DOS? From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jan 2 12:12:54 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: More on the Documentation Haul Message-ID: <13321046317.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have finally gone through most of this... VAX/VMS manuals (Boy, do I need those!) A lot of PDP-11 diagnostics on punched paper tape (I have a mylar pt reader, will that do for reading these?) XXDP on 9-track tape. A DOS/BATCH distrib tape and some manuals. Loads of RSTS/E manuals and sales stuff. DEC catalogs. Copies of RSTS PROFESSIONAL magazine. (!) Some very detailed PDP-8 manuals (As in they include schematics) The PDP-8 User's Guide User's Guide to the DECsystem-10. The PDP-10 refrence manual. The latter has some wonderful panel pictures, I'll scan those... Some other 10 miscellaneous. Manuals and a bootdisk for my Rainbow! Now all I need's they keyboard an monitor... According to the disk it's CP/M 8.0 A few scratch magtapes and RX02. Some TK50 cartridges. A card reader/punch for Unibus. More as I go through it... Oh yea! There's a VAX/VMS magtape distribution in here, version 4.6 ------- From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 12:14:40 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: Well, I think that I will learn it and use it a bit first. I will say when I am done with the tutorial :) How much would people pay for it, anyway? It is in almost perfect condition, with the reference card, and all that. In a message dated 98-01-02 13:07:22 EST, you write: << Are you still interested in selling Visicalc for the Apple II and the other stuff? I'm interested. Sincerely, Tom >I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if >there was a PC version or port for DOS? >> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 14:24:24 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801021739.JAA18088@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Zane H. Healy"'s message of Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:51:55 -0800> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102142424.60e7f9a8@intellistar.net> At 09:39 AM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> HP 9000's are PA-RISC based UNIX workstations running HP-UX. > >Um, no. Well, if you buy a new one you will get a PA-RISC CPU but >that is not historically true. You need to look at the series number >to figure out what the CPU is: > >500 - FOCUS (HP-proprietary 32-bit stack machine) >200 - 680[01]0 >300 - 680[1234]0 (I think the 310 was the only 68010-based series 300) >800 - PA-RISC >400 - 68040 >700 - PA-RISC > >I think these days there is also a Series 600 that is PA-RISC and >a "T500" that is PA-RISC. > >Some of these also have HP 9xxx numbers besides the "9000 Series xxx" >designation. If you go back and look at how they were originally >sold, the "HP 9000" was briefly just the FOCUS-based systems, which >eventually became the HP 9000 Series 520, 530, 540, and 550, and I >think I have seen references to the 9000 Series 520 as the "HP 9020". >The HP 9000 Series 226 and 236 were originally sold as the HP 9826 and >HP 9836; I believe there was some sort of upgrade involved for the >9836 that made it capable of running HP-UX (in addition to the >original BASIC, Pascal, and HPL). > >-Frank McConnell Frank knows his HPs! I know the 200 series pretty well but he's got all of them down pat. I went and dug out my 1987 HP catalog. Here's what I found: The 9820 (9000 220) U and T models and the 9836 (9000 236) U, CT, T and CT models all use a 68010 CPU running at 12.5 MHz. All other models use a 68000 CPU running at 10 MHz. "The 220 is a modular rack mountable system with separate monitors, keyboards and disk drives." and "It is compatable with BASIC 3.0, Pascal 3.0, SRM and single or multi-user HP-UX." <<< This last sentence applies to all of the 9000 200 series. The 220 also runs HPL even though they don't state that here. SRM is Shared Resource Manager. Note: unlike the other computers in this family, the 220 does not have a 98xx number. The 9000 216 (aka 9816) has a built in monitor (~ 6") and two expansion slots and a detachable keyboard and a built-in HP_IB and RS-232 intefaces are built in. The 9000 226 (aka 9826) has a built-in monitor (~ 6"), attached keyboard and (I think) 8 expansion slots. The 9000 236 (aka 9836) has a separate but matching monitor (~ 14") , a fixed keyboard and six expansion slots. I will scan some of the catalog pictures and post them to my website. You can look at them at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp220.jpg" after I get them posted later today. Pictures of the other 200 series computers will be available as "hp9816.jpg", "hp9826.jpg" and "hp9836.jpg". FWIW the 9000 Vectra series computers (or some of them anyway) used 80286 CPUs and were MS-DOS compatable. NOW My turn. Does anyone know exactly what a 9000 217 model is? I found one but I've neverheard of it before and it's not in any of my catalogs. Joe From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 13:02:21 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Catalogs Message-ID: <23c3442b.34ad39bf@aol.com> I dug up a few more 1984 catalogs, and would like to find out about some stuff in them (I think I have a destination for the catalogs themselves, so don't ask me about buying them) One is a Misco 1985 catalog, which is just general office stuff. Not much in that. The other is an Advanced Computer Products (19)84/85. This one has some computers that I have never seen before. If anyone has a clue about them... *A $500 NEC PC-8200, a very small 16K thing *A $1400 Sanyo MBC 1150 Z-80 based thing *An Epson PX-8 portable for $995 *A macintosh ad saying that it is a 32-bit computer. What gives? *A Sanyo 25" color monitor for $719 *$45 parallel cables *Rockwell International AIM65, looks more like a huge desktop calculator From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 2 14:48:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: Classifieds2000 apology Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980102124546.3c976d60@ricochet.net> At 11:38 PM 12/31/97, you wrote: >You should have read the ad. It says "WANTED TO BUY AN IMSAI COMPUTER WITH >OR WITH OUT MANUALS. ALSO ALTAIRS, PROLOG, KIMS, SBC-80-10 BY INTEL YEARS >1975-1982 DECS, JUPER-II BY WAVE MATE. I WILL PAY UP TO 200+ FOR CSOME I should have actually read the ad. I'm *really* sorry to have wasted everone's time with this. >Classifieds2000 is a waste of time IMO. I'm beginning to think so too. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 2 14:48:39 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:01 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980102124559.2a5f647a@ricochet.net> At 12:21 PM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >If you're talking about the GEM I think you're talking about. Wasn't it >licensed from Digital Research? GEM is also the basis for the 16 & 32-bit >Atari's. I just can't remember at this point if the PC version ran on DOS, >or if it required CP/M to run. GEM is DR's product, and it did (does) run on the Atari ST & Falcon. Ran on the PC over DOS, iirc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 2 14:48:51 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980102124614.2a5f38ca@ricochet.net> At 07:40 PM 1/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >Yeah. EGA is pretty much the same as standard VGA (where windows is >concerned). The colors (to me) look alot richer and more vibrant on an EGA. >Maybe they just ditched the CGA/Herc drivers then. 3.1 (and 3.11?) had support for Hercules Mono. Which, iirc, wasn't such a bad standard at 720xsomething (better than std VGA?) Of course, you didn't get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all those boring old black and white movies! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Jan 2 14:53:44 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01IRWJHWAAW290NKJD@cc.usu.edu> > (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all > those boring old black and white movies! 8^) True story. When my sone was about 5, he had very interesting taste in TV shows. It went something like this: - If it is animated, watch it. - If it is live-action in color, change the channel. - If it is live-action in B&W, watch it for a while to see if it's funny. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jan 2 14:01:41 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801022105.NAA14650@mx3.u.washington.edu> >When I first ran winders it was on a 386/16 with 4mb of ram > it seemed fast enough to do a lot of useful work. > > > Allison Well, yeah. But, that was when a Winders program came on a couple of floppies, before the code -- and graphics -- bloat. A program, then, did less and had less junk (toolbars and suchlike). Still, some things _have_ improved in speed. My Corel Draw 3 on my laptop handles text in a rather leisurely fashion, wheras Corel Draw 7 is quite snappy. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jan 2 14:27:16 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <199801022105.NAA01691@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I > finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if > there was a PC version or port for DOS? Sure was. -- I've got one (no manuals, tho'). I messed with it a little...works sorta like early Lotus. IIRC, there was one for the PCjr, too. manney@nwohio.com From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 15:16:47 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: > True story. > > When my sone was about 5, he had very interesting taste in TV shows. It > went something like this: > > - If it is animated, watch it. We all love Windows 95 :) > - If it is live-action in color, change the channel. We all love Windows 95 :) > - If it is live-action in B&W, watch it for a while to see if it's funny. Not that strange. Remember that Charlie Chaplin, The Three Stooges, and MS-DOS 1.0 are the three all-time comedy classics! > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jan 2 15:39:16 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <199801022105.NAA01691@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I have VisiCalc for the Tandy series of computers... with all the manuals. CORD ############################################################################## # Cord G. Coslor -- P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE # # (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 # # Classic computer software and hardware collector # # Autograph collector # ############################################################################## #The##/ ___ /#/ ___ /##/ ___ /#/ /##/ /#/_ __/#/ /#/ /#/ _____## #####/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /##/ /##/__/#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /####### ####/ ___ /#/ _ __/##/ /#######/ ___ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ _____/### ###/ /##/ /#/ /#\ \###/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /######### ##/__/##/__/#/_/###\_\#/________/#/__/##/__/#/______/#/_______/#/________/#### ############################################################################## On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > > > > I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I > > finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering > if > > there was a PC version or port for DOS? > > Sure was. -- I've got one (no manuals, tho'). I messed with it a > little...works sorta like early Lotus. > > IIRC, there was one for the PCjr, too. > > manney@nwohio.com > > From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 16:06:40 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-02 16:38:35 EST, you write: << >When I first ran winders it was on a 386/16 with 4mb of ram > it seemed fast enough to do a lot of useful work. > > > Allison Well, yeah. But, that was when a Winders program came on a couple of floppies, before the code -- and graphics -- bloat. A program, then, did less and had less junk (toolbars and suchlike). Still, some things _have_ improved in speed. My Corel Draw 3 on my laptop handles text in a rather leisurely fashion, wheras Corel Draw 7 is quite snappy. manney@nwohio.com >> Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was unfortunately what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which was first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased out. MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong here, I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jan 2 16:33:32 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Fri, 02 Jan 1998 14:24:24 References: <3.0.1.16.19980102142424.60e7f9a8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801022233.OAA26947@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > Frank knows his HPs! I know the 200 series pretty well but he's got all > of them down pat. I've been doing stuff with HPs for over 20 years now (mostly with 3000s and HP PCs), and some of it stuck. But I've never worked with Series 200s so don't know that much about them, just what I've picked up here and there. And I still think I have a lot to learn. Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP 3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too -- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. Somewhere along the way I decided I wanted a windowing environment that could handle HP terminal emulation on my desk, and after fooling around a bit with PCs I saw some guy up in Berkeley trying to be rid of a 9000 Series 320. So I bought it, and it was good. That sat there 'til early 1994 when I got retreaded into a Windows device driver kind of guy. Now I guess it's part of my collection -- it sits in the storage closet. > FWIW the 9000 Vectra series computers (or some of them anyway) used > 80286 CPUs and were MS-DOS compatable. 9000 Vectra? My recollection of the Vectra family is that it's all IBM-compatibles (well, mostly, I remember the earliest Vectras and they were about 99% if you allowed for the HP-isms that snuck in, like the HP-HIL interface for the keyboard and mouse, the HP keyboard with the f1-f8 keys across the top, and the funky HP Multimode MDA/CGA display adapter) and never was a part of the 9000 family. Though I think I remember something about a coprocessor card (set?) you could stick in ISA slot(s) to run Rocky Mountain BASIC. Of course HP would have sold that in/for Vectra boxes. > NOW My turn. Does anyone know exactly what a 9000 217 model is? I found > one but I've neverheard of it before and it's not in any of my catalogs. Every once in a while I see a flavor of 9000/200 that is built into or around an HP 2382 terminal housing: small, beige skin, brown bezel around 9" monochrome CRT. I think some of the ones I've seen were hooked up to 91[23]x disk drives, and can't remember whether the processor was in a similarly-sized box or in the terminal. Could that be it? I think the HP Integral PC was also the HP 9000/207 though I don't know if it was ever sold under that name. -Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Jan 2 17:03:37 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: MAI ? Message-ID: <003101bd17d3$aea48dc0$54987c0a@office1> I think that MAI produced an accounting system "solution" for businesses consisting of a multi-user computer system and proprietary accounting software. I remember running into them occasionally during field audits of some of our clients. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 19:13:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Classifieds2000 apology In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980102124546.3c976d60@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102191318.451753e4@intellistar.net> At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 11:38 PM 12/31/97, you wrote: >>You should have read the ad. It says "WANTED TO BUY AN IMSAI COMPUTER WITH >>OR WITH OUT MANUALS. ALSO ALTAIRS, PROLOG, KIMS, SBC-80-10 BY INTEL YEARS >>1975-1982 DECS, JUPER-II BY WAVE MATE. I WILL PAY UP TO 200+ FOR CSOME > >I should have actually read the ad. I'm *really* sorry to have wasted >everone's time with this. Roger, I didn't mean to be critical. You had good intentions. > >>Classifieds2000 is a waste of time IMO. > >I'm beginning to think so too. Did you see the ad on there for the KayPro 4 on there for $10,000 ! Honest! I'm not making this up! Gee, my Altair must be worth millions! I wish! Joe > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 2 17:20:00 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980102152000.00722084@agora.rdrop.com> Let's start the new year off with an interesting one, eh? Since it seems that there are as many people out there looking for Altairs as are looking for PDP-8's, and the original PDP-8 ('straight' 8) is the one major model of the line that seems to keep eluding me, I'm offering the following: --- One electronically restored and functional MITS Altair 8800 (the original, not the later 'a' or 'b' series), 16k of static memory, MITS serial card, complete documentation set, and a set of MITS (Microsoft) Altair BASIC paper tapes (4k, 8k, 12k version) and other paper tape based utilities. (NOTE: memory is non-MITS, docs may be mix of original and reprints) In trade for: One Digital Equipment Corporpation PDP-8 (original, not later 'i', 'e', etc... series), with 4k or more of core, and serial (teletype) control. Any additional options welcome. Desktop configuration desired, but rackmount configuration perfectly acceptable. Documentation and engineering prints desired as is any original software (diags, languages, etc.), but lack of same does not disqualify. Functional unit desired, but non-functional units will be considered as long as they are complete (all cards, modules, etc.) and have no unusual physical damage. Shipping/delivery arrangements for both units to be discussed separately. Location of unit may be a consideration. (my location: Beaverton Oregon) Any takers? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 2 17:32:45 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980102153245.0378d0f8@agora.rdrop.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980102/47fcbcfd/attachment.bin From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Jan 2 18:41:27 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980102152000.00722084@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Well dernit =-) I just worked out a deal so that I'll be retrieving *3* PDP-8/Is in the next two weeks, weather permitting. Yes, that's right...*3* of them. =-) And possibly an 11/34A (wee hoo) and some other gear as well as documentation. Also a Linc, which I'm ashamed to admit I'm much less familiar with though I have seen mention of it on some of the other web pages. (I'll be researching that!) Ummmmm...yeah...the uh 'I' WAS the Straight 8! Yeah that's the ticket! Wanna trade, Jim? =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > Since it seems that there are as many people out there looking for Altairs > as are looking for PDP-8's, and the original PDP-8 ('straight' 8) is the > one major model of the line that seems to keep eluding me, I'm offering the > following: > > --- > > One electronically restored and functional MITS Altair 8800 (the original, > not the later 'a' or 'b' series), 16k of static memory, MITS serial card, > complete documentation set, and a set of MITS (Microsoft) Altair BASIC > paper tapes (4k, 8k, 12k version) and other paper tape based utilities. > (NOTE: memory is non-MITS, docs may be mix of original and reprints) > > In trade for: > > One Digital Equipment Corporpation PDP-8 (original, not later 'i', 'e', > etc... series), with 4k or more of core, and serial (teletype) control. > Any additional options welcome. Desktop configuration desired, but > rackmount configuration perfectly acceptable. Documentation and > engineering prints desired as is any original software (diags, languages, > etc.), but lack of same does not disqualify. Functional unit desired, but > non-functional units will be considered as long as they are complete (all > cards, modules, etc.) and have no unusual physical damage. From bcw at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 2 17:45:42 1998 From: bcw at u.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980102153245.0378d0f8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Holy Cow! I have $19,800 worth of Apples!!! ;) Happy new year everyone. ------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw@u.washington.edu (mail may come from alternate addresses) Classic Computers List Operator/Owner http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, James Willing wrote: > Here is one that I got today from someone offering "Rare Apple Computers > and Hardware". Seems that the prices are about as far disconnected from > reality as his web page. It's there, but has no content other than a > splash screen. (sheesh!) > > > -jim > > > >>>> > > > > Apple III - 500.00 > > Apple Lisa 2/10 w/original keyboard, mouse - 2500.00 > > Apple IIc - 300.00 > > Apple Lisa Office System Manuals - 300.00 > > Apple IIc Flat Panel Display w/manual - 500.00 > > Apple Monitor III - 60.00 > > Apple Macintosh 512K - 200.00 > > Apple Color Monitor IIc - 100.00 > > > > If interested mail me back and Thank You. > > > > Evan Casteel > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Evan Casteel Computers > > <www.televar.com/~ecasteel > > <ecasteel@televar.com > > <ecasteel@hotmail.com > > > > <<<<<<<< > > > The above quoted content has no affiliation with, nor is endorsed in any > way by me or the Computer Garage. > > > > > --- > > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 19:42:03 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <199801022105.NAA01691@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102194203.44274c20@intellistar.net> At 03:27 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >> I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I >> finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering >if >> there was a PC version or port for DOS? > >Sure was. -- I've got one (no manuals, tho'). I messed with it a >little...works sorta like early Lotus. Actually I think VisiCalc WAS the early version of Lotus 123. I don't remember all the names but VisiCalc was originally developed by some guy as a school project. One of the other students liked it and bought the rights to it for something like $100 and formed Lotus Developement Corp (I think that's the right name). It was first marketed as VisiCalc and was virtually unchanged from the original project software except for being ported to different systems. Later the name was changed to Lotus 123 and the product was further developed. Another case of the inventor ending up sweeping floors and a promoter becoming rich with someone else's idea. (Tesla >> George Westinghouse) (Henry >> Oliver Winchester) etc etc. Joe > >IIRC, there was one for the PCjr, too. > >manney@nwohio.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 2 20:24:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: <199801022233.OAA26947@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980102202402.4427bc1c@intellistar.net> At 02:33 PM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> Frank knows his HPs! I know the 200 series pretty well but he's got all >> of them down pat. > >I've been doing stuff with HPs for over 20 years now (mostly with >3000s and HP PCs), and some of it stuck. But I've never worked with >Series 200s so don't know that much about them, just what I've picked >up here and there. And I still think I have a lot to learn. Don't we all! I swear it seems like the more I learn, the more questions I have! > >Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little >company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP >3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a >product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, >WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too >-- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it >be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. > Sounds familar. I went from Pershing II missiles with RADAR guidance to a 5 foot long anti-aircraft racket with active IR quidance. No one could see any difference in them ether (specially my bosses). >Somewhere along the way I decided I wanted a windowing environment >that could handle HP terminal emulation on my desk, and after fooling >around a bit with PCs I saw some guy up in Berkeley trying to be rid >of a 9000 Series 320. So I bought it, and it was good. That sat >there 'til early 1994 when I got retreaded into a Windows device >driver kind of guy. Now I guess it's part of my collection -- it sits >in the storage closet. We'll have to compare collections. > >> FWIW the 9000 Vectra series computers (or some of them anyway) used >> 80286 CPUs and were MS-DOS compatable. > >9000 Vectra? My recollection of the Vectra family is that it's all >IBM-compatibles (well, mostly, I remember the earliest Vectras and >they were about 99% if you allowed for the HP-isms that snuck in, like >the HP-HIL interface for the keyboard and mouse, the HP keyboard with >the f1-f8 keys across the top, and the funky HP Multimode MDA/CGA That's them. >display adapter) and never was a part of the 9000 family. > Well that's what the 1987 HP catalog says. Granted they're as different as day and night. >Though I think I remember something about a coprocessor card (set?) you >could stick in ISA slot(s) to run Rocky Mountain BASIC. Of course HP >would have sold that in/for Vectra boxes. THAT sounds interesting! I like to get one of those boards. > >> NOW My turn. Does anyone know exactly what a 9000 217 model is? I found >> one but I've neverheard of it before and it's not in any of my catalogs. > >Every once in a while I see a flavor of 9000/200 that is built into or >around an HP 2382 terminal housing: small, beige skin, brown bezel around >9" monochrome CRT. I think some of the ones I've seen were hooked up >to 91[23]x disk drives, and can't remember whether the processor was in >a similarly-sized box or in the terminal. Could that be it? That sounds more like the 9000 216 aka 9816. Look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg" and see if that looks like what you're thinking of. This was a box about the size of a 9133 disk drive and had 8? expansion slots in the back and no attached monitor or keybaord. it said 9000 217 on the front top corner. BTW Do you know where I can get a keyboard for a 9816? Do you know if any of the other keyboards will work on it? I have a bunch of HP-HIL keyboards and they use that same style connector. I'm not sure if it's the same size or number of contacts though. I do know that the 9816 keyboard has one latch on top and the HIL keybaord has two latchs, one on each side. > >I think the HP Integral PC was also the HP 9000/207 though I don't know >if it was ever sold under that name. I have heard it called a 9807, ONCE. It's also shown as a 9807 in the '87 catalog. The IPC is one of my favorites! I have two of them and lots of software. If you run across any IPCs or accessories or software, I'M INTERESTED! > >-Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) > Joe > From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jan 2 18:45:25 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030057.QAA22338@mx4.u.washington.edu> > Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was unfortunately > what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which was > first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased out. I've used MSW on XT's (even a PC), and I don't remember its being all that slow. What were you doing? Editing War & Peace? > MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong here, > I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) I think they're pretty quick (faster than the IBM XT, anyway!) From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 2 14:34:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801030057.QAA22338@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199801030130.UAA21977@mail.cgocable.net> > > Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was > unfortunately > > what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a > > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which > was > > first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased > out. Have you forgotten to turn on the turbo function? Some clones defaults to 4.77mhz instead of 8mhz especially if it has no turbo switch and have faster cpu in it. > I've used MSW on XT's (even a PC), and I don't remember its being all that > slow. What were you doing? Editing War & Peace? > > > MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong > here, > > I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) (!!) It pauses a bit on first key press when starting off right after startup. If you're working from floppy, that is expected to have lot of pauses but very little if any if working from HD. I'm heavy user and know more of works than most s/w I've is works 2.0 for my primary WP work banging away reams of college paper as late as couple of years ago on that Luddite and on former 486, and I still have that s/w sitting on my P5's HD! It's cool to fit whole thing on one 1.44 floppy. This works 2.0 is best example of user interface without interrupting your train of thought and look as you go...And no playing games of guessing buried in GUI menus, waiting for fancy features to load in on demand. And keep that hands on that keyboard is BIG plus especially without fuction keys and mouse. And another good example was News Xpress had same user interface but the next version totally lost it, using windows crap. :( That is one another big reason I'm looking at linux ongoing basis. Right now I do not wish to break off win95 yet as I have not yet explored all the linux and it's s/w. Right now, thinking what is best way to intergate the linux into my main P5 using lilo and whole 1GB hd as home for linux in my 3hd/cdrom configuration. Oh about the works, one thing for certain, M/S did not begat this original works code. I've the lotus smartsuite 96 now, not used yet because I'm out of college for various reasons. Ugh, what a bloatware! 150+mb full install. Oh well. No problem to pass on suggestions on choice of linux like Slackware Walunt, or such that was put together properly but not so pricey as Red Hat and it's imcompatiable installer format. Jason D. > I think they're pretty quick (faster than the IBM XT, anyway!) PS: Leading edge pc's are pretty well built despite it's looks and even late case models, that ones that is 5" tall desktop we're able to upgrade them with standard 486 and pentiums in them. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 2 19:57:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030157.AA19327@world.std.com> <> > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, w I have a Leading Edge model D here in active use. Nice machine and locked (no turbo) to 4.77mhz. Mine has had a hard disk controller added and a souped up floppy controller to do 1.44 3.5". That and a V20 it's stock and runs well. Save fpr I'm using it for other things I've had Win3.0 running on it and it's not that bad considering. Currently it has Wordperfect works on it and it's very useful for text work. Allison From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 20:48:45 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: Another thing: I saw a copy of Lotus 123 for the Rainbow 100. Anyone want that? In a message dated 98-01-02 19:06:16 EST, you write: << Actually I think VisiCalc WAS the early version of Lotus 123. I don't remember all the names but VisiCalc was originally developed by some guy as a school project. One of the other students liked it and bought the rights to it for something like $100 and formed Lotus Developement Corp (I think that's the right name). It was first marketed as VisiCalc and was virtually unchanged from the original project software except for being ported to different systems. Later the name was changed to Lotus 123 and the product was further developed. Another case of the inventor ending up sweeping floors and a promoter becoming rich with someone else's idea. (Tesla >> George Westinghouse) (Henry >> Oliver Winchester) etc etc. >> From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Jan 2 20:50:58 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <2cef377d.34ada795@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-02 20:03:36 EST, you write: << > Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was unfortunately > what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a > second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which was > first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased out. I've used MSW on XT's (even a PC), and I don't remember its being all that slow. What were you doing? Editing War & Peace? > MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong here, > I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow) I think they're pretty quick (faster than the IBM XT, anyway!) >> Actually, It took a few minutes for works even to start up! We were editing one-page documents. The Leading Edge Model D I have had two experiences with. In one case it was ENIAC-speed (clock? oh, yeah, it's 3:30!) and the other it was 286-speed. From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Jan 2 20:54:17 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: DECmate III / RX50 question Message-ID: <000201bd17f2$e648d820$54987c0a@office1> Two quick questions: 1. What is a disk substitution for a DEC RX-50 diskette? 2. How can you get a DECmate terminal working as a regular "dumb" terminal in stead of a word processor? TIA! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 2 21:18:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) They used to do that with older games that were originally in 4-color CGA, going back and redoing them in VGA 256 color. Just a few though. Space Quest springs to mind... - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 2 21:34:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Classifieds2000 apology Message-ID: <199801030334.WAA05722@server1.netpath.net> At 07:13 PM 1/2/98, you wrote: > Did you see the ad on there for the KayPro 4 on there for $10,000 ! >Honest! I'm not making this up! Gee, my Altair must be worth millions! >I wish! Some yahoo on www.haggle.com had an Apple Lisa listed for $15,000.00. People collect these old machines, but not for the money, for the nostalgia mostly. At least that's how it is in my case, although I do use some of my machines on a daily basis. (Mostly for playing my collection of ancient games that just seem to run like greased electrons on my Cyrix 200 system. :) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 2 21:34:52 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! Message-ID: <199801030334.WAA05736@server1.netpath.net> At 03:32 PM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >Here is one that I got today from someone offering "Rare Apple Computers and Hardware". Seems that the prices are about as far disconnected from reality as his web page. It's there, but has no content other than a splash screen. >Apple Macintosh 512K - 200.00 I feel so stupid... I sold a Mac 512ke for $40 about 3 months ago. Man, I better go update my prices... I'm sitting on a fortune!!!! - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 2 21:38:41 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: <34ADB2C1.A911AE87@cnct.com> Zeus334 wrote: > Er....one question here. I've tried Linux many times, as well as Minix. From > all of my attempts, I have come to the following conclusion: Linux is not for > doing USEFUL things. The express purpose of Linux is to provide something for > people to recompile. After all, you HAVEN'T seen people doing something on > Linux besides recompiling the kernel and configuring TCP/IP stacks, HAVE YOU? 'scuse me son, but this AST system I use for day-to-day stuff is only allowed to boot Microslough on the (rare) occasions I feel like playing a game. Otherwise it (this week) is normally running Caldera OpenLinux with the RedHat CDE and Netscape 4.03 to talk to the world through a DIP/Slirp connection to my ISP. Correct, I've recompiled the kernel, to leave out a bunch of device drivers I didn't need and to add (as modules) a few that come in handy -- like the one that runs my Zip drive. It may seem strange to a Windows user, but vi is my main editor (fifteen years now), because I don't care for the unnecessary 90% of the features in modern word processors -- I edit, then I set things up for output later, without the distraction of all of the crap at the top of the screen with MS Word in _any_ release since Word for DOS 1.0. And I use that same vi editor on my AT&T 7300, my Tandy 6000 and (courtesy of MKS) on all of my DOS boxen. Oh, and on my Sun and on my OS-9 Level II Color Computer III (under the name TRS-Edit) and probably one or two other machines out of sight elsewhere in the house. For those interested, the MKS toolkit for MS-DOS worked from day one on the Tandy 2000 with its 80186. And while I haven't tested it myself, I am told by a reliable source that it runs on the DEC Rainbow under MS-DOS. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 2 16:45:19 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <199801030341.WAA14740@mail.cgocable.net> > At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all > >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) > > They used to do that with older games that were originally in 4-color CGA, > going back and redoing them in VGA 256 color. Just a few though. Space Quest > springs to mind... Hee hee...I just got space quest collection series for christmas. Yup, that was there are 2 types of original sq1 and sq1 vga versions. But remember, this first one did not have sound built in and the sound blaster card did not exist at that time! I enjoy playing these type of games. Oh, coloring those b/w shows and movies ruined it because quality and appearance looked offish to me. The original NTSC b/w is what is original format designed for TV's in old days and it looked better due to greater bandwith. Color info crowds out the actual video at expense of detail. Again 525 lines in NTSC standard is not enough for color but remember that was very acceptable and superb for b/w applicatons. To prove this, my brother is pretty good hobby photographer preferring b/w and we're stunned by how much detail and "seems sharper" in those photos. Even finest color photos through created with thousands of dollars worth of equipment did not equal to this one. IMHO Jason D. > > > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > > > > From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Fri Jan 2 21:41:23 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: 10k Kaypro? Here's another laugh! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980102153245.0378d0f8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: >Here is one that I got today from someone offering "Rare Apple Computers >and Hardware". Seems that the prices are about as far disconnected from >reality as his web page. It's there, but has no content other than a >splash screen. (sheesh!) >>Apple IIc - 300.00 A friend got one from GoodWill for $15. >>Apple Macintosh 512K - 200.00 I got a nice one for $15, and a few semi-working ones for free. What are these, clearance prices from when these models were discontinued? Geez... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 2 22:38:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: Message-ID: <34ADC0E3.5064D086@cnct.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > Second, there are applications...I believe WordPerfect is available for > Linux as well as many other WSIWYG programs. I don't use them on my > Linux box because I prefer to have it do useful things. WordPerfect 6 is available for Linux -- in some incarnations it has been packaged with Caldera's higher-end configuration. Beyond that, I can't say, as I hate WordPerfect alsost as much as I hate Word. > > Third, I think you need to pick up a copy of Linux Journal as it has > listings for commercial software etc. A very useful magazine. I've been getting it since about the third issue. > > That was the end of my last try at Linux, a few months ago. I have a Slackware > > Linux CD with Kernels up to 1.3.12. I now have T-1 access, though, so if you > > can suggest a system which COULD BE A VIABLE REPLACEMENT FOR MacOS OR WINDOWS, My (pick your service) 386/25 server is the only one I've still got running that old a kernel -- it's stable and I see no need to change that one. Everything else is at kernel 2.0.x. > Linux isn't a replacement for MacOS or Windows...it goes FAR BEYOND the > capabilities of either. Certainly you can use it for word processing, > using the WordPerfect etc mentioned above, but Linux boxes are serious > business machines that can represent thousands of dollars in revenues to > a business that uses it. Linux _is_ a replacement for MacOS or Windows. It provides utility that Apple and Micro$oft can't approach. And it doesn't crash anywhere near as often -- that 386/25 hasn't been rebooted since except when the local power company can't deal with the weather, since I haven't been allowed to budget a UPS by she-who-must-be-obeyed. > Keep in mind that there's a trade-off between flexibility and > ease-of-use. Linux will never be as easy to install as Windows 95. It > isn't intended for that purpose. It's far too powerful and flexible for > that and assumes that the user wants to go beyond mere word processing. Like the old quote about Unix in general -- Linux is just as user friendly as any other OS, it's just not as promiscuous about who it's friendly with. This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups supply corrals for that gunfight. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From KFergason at aol.com Fri Jan 2 22:28:40 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <4ef0113.34adbe7a@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-02 17:36:09 EST, you write: << Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP 3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too -- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. >> Oh cool. from 89-92, I managed 2 500's, a 540 and a 560. I don't remember the exact differences between the two. but, they were great. we had the wollongong software on them. my favorite was the 400 Mb had disk that looked and sounded like a dishwasher. Kelly From william at ans.net Fri Jan 2 23:40:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well dernit =-) I just worked out a deal so that I'll be retrieving > *3* PDP-8/Is in the next two weeks, weather permitting. Yes, that's > right...*3* of them. =-) Three more saved from the brink... > Also a Linc, which I'm ashamed to > admit I'm much less familiar with though I have seen mention of it on > some of the other web pages. (I'll be researching that!) A LINC!!???!?!?! If it is an honest to goodness original LINC (made by DEC or someone else), get that before the PDP-8/Is! They are incredibly rare. A bit later DEC merged a LINC with a Straight-8 to make a LINC-8, also a very rare machine (I know of three survivors of a little over a hundred made, all around 1967). Those in turn begat the PDP-12s, esentially PDP-8/Is merged with LINCs. Or it could be a LINC that is something completely different... Keep us informed! William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 2 23:47:54 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Visicalc References: <3.0.1.16.19980102194203.44274c20@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34ADD10A.C1574EF2@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > Actually I think VisiCalc WAS the early version of Lotus 123. I don't > remember all the names but VisiCalc was originally developed by some guy as > a school project. One of the other students liked it and bought the rights > to it for something like $100 and formed Lotus Developement Corp (I think > that's the right name). It was first marketed as VisiCalc and was > virtually unchanged from the original project software except for being > ported to different systems. Later the name was changed to Lotus 123 and > the product was further developed. Another case of the inventor ending up > sweeping floors and a promoter becoming rich with someone else's idea. > (Tesla >> George Westinghouse) (Henry >> Oliver Winchester) etc etc. Actually Lotus (and SuperCalc for CP/M) were look/feel clones of VisiCalc. VisiCalc was originally written in Apple _Integer_ BASIC and then later converted to 6502 assembly. More than Xerox, it's responsible for the existence of the Mac: if not for VisiCalc, Apple would have been bankrupted out of the computer business by 1981, but the very existence of VisiCalc sold a shitload of Apples. And by concatenation, VisiCalc is responsible for Windows. VisiCalc versus Lotus was the first look/feel copyright battle, long before Apple sued Microsoft over concepts they got from Xerox. The winner was VisiCalc, but fat lot of good it did. Eventually, Lotus bought all rights to VisiCalc and buried it. SuperCalc (despite the best efforts of Computer Associates) is long dead, and nowadays about all desktop spreadsheeting (by other than us Unix junkies) in done with Micro$oft Exc(rement)ell. And I say this as a guy who learned on the TRS-80 version of VisiCalc but whose preferred spreadsheet program is (Micro$oft) MultiPlan, which still works fine on a Z-80 and a MC68010. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jan 2 23:47:21 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. Message-ID: <01bd180b$0f9d0ee0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Most of the tandy printers where serial. Does the DMP have a DIN cable, a D cable or a Centronics cable. Most had a serial DIN cable and you would have to make a custom cable that went from a PC"s serial port to the DIN on the printer. If it's a D connector you should be able to use a straight through serial cable. Getting it to talk, will be the next interesting part. Im not sure how they communicated, but you might be able to get at least text out of it. Let me know how it comes out. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Deschamps To: Multiple recipients of list COCO Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 4:45 PM Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the manual, >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the manual. >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and which >driver did you use in Windows? > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to a >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, which >part number >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? > >Many thanks!!! > From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jan 2 23:49:38 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B Message-ID: <01bd180b$61089060$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Hey guess what, very odd. If you have the cart's in and you boot to a normal plain old DOS disk, just type 123 and it Loads!! YES! Don't know how the heck it does it, but it does work. -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 01, 1998 5:59 PM Subject: Re: PCjr Lotus carts A and B >;-) Bill Girnius head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >>I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a >>stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted? > >I'm quite sure that there is a boot disk that's needed as well, but I could >never get my Jr's to spew out video very well... :-( > >HTH, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, >Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* >zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > From pvhp at forte.com Fri Jan 2 23:51:17 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <9801030551.AA16114@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu, fmc@reanimators.org Subj: Re: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Frank McConnell wrote: >I've been doing stuff with HPs for over 20 years now (mostly with >3000s and HP PCs), and some of it stuck. But I've never worked with >Series 200s so don't know that much about them, just what I've picked >up here and there. And I still think I have a lot to learn. > >Why do I know about Series 500s? In 1989 I took a job at a little >company called The Wollongong Group, supporting a product for the HP >3000 called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Little did I know, they also had a >product for the HP 9000 Series 500s called, straightforwardly enough, >WIN/TCP for HP 9000 Series 500. They expected me to support that too >-- after all it's all HP stuff, it's all weird/how different can it >be? (yep, that's how they thought) -- so I did. >-Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) > I am brimming with curiosity about the MPE OS: What is it like? Having tried to glean some info from the HP web site I can only surmise that the target market is mid to large businesses and might be comparable to IBM AS/400 or Mainframe type computing environments. Am I right? If that is the case I am curious: does MPE run with ASCII or EBCDIC character sets? Does MPE support a UNIX like environment - even as an option? What is the shell like? What is the C compiler like? Editors? In short - what is MPE like? How long has it been on the market? Sorry, but I have never personally known anyone/anyplace that runs MPE, until I came across a UC campus with a web site that several MPE freeware packages available. However, from that (as well as any possible newsgroups) it is difficult to determine what the OS is like for the user/admin/programmer and I would appreciate some info. Thanks very much to anyone who can respond. Peter Prymmer From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 2 23:53:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34ADC0E3.5064D086@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: >This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. >Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an Well, Linux does run on 10+ year old systems, so on that basis this might be an OK subject. For example, my Amiga 2000's are over ten years old I believe, and with the proper accelerator they can run Linux. In fact with the proper accelerator Linux will scream on them! Same with my VAXstation (if I ever get my hands on a Hard Drive for it), I don't think it will run Linux, but it will run it's cousin OpenBSD (well at least one of those BSDish variants, who can keep track of them). An original IBM PC is capable of running Linux in the form of ELKS I believe. This is probably more the way in which we should be looking at Linux, instead of argueing it's merits (yes, I know I'm one of those argueing). >item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars >between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups >supply corrals for that gunfight. This on the otherhand is definitly not a correct topic for the mailing list, and yes, I think this fact is mentioned in the FAQ. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 00:00:45 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Game Speeds (was Re: Classifieds2000 apology) In-Reply-To: <199801030334.WAA05722@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: >At least that's how it is in my case, although I do use some of my machines >on a daily basis. (Mostly for playing my collection of ancient games that >just seem to run like greased electrons on my Cyrix 200 system. :) Heh, heh. Want real fun, try playing the original DOS version of Falcon on that Cyrix. Talk about poor programming, on a 286 it was pretty much unplayable, which brought about Falcon AT. On a 386sx/16 you were dead from crashing before you knew you had started playing! I remember Wing Commander on that same 386sx/16 was pretty awsome, but way to fast for me at least on my 486DX/33 when I got it. On the otherhand, something like Master of Orion just gets better with faster systems! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 3 01:06:48 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Three more saved from the brink... > > > Also a Linc, which I'm ashamed to > > admit I'm much less familiar with though I have seen mention of it on > > some of the other web pages. (I'll be researching that!) > > A LINC!!???!?!?! > Like I said....I'd heard of it...didn't realize that only 40 some were actually ever built. I *WILL* be grabbing that for certain! =-) It sounds like I can grab 3 - PDP-8/i 1 - PDP-11/34A 1 - Linc or Linc-8 (wasn't clear which) > If it is an honest to goodness original LINC (made by DEC or someone > else), get that before the PDP-8/Is! They are incredibly rare. A bit later > DEC merged a LINC with a Straight-8 to make a LINC-8, also a very rare > machine (I know of three survivors of a little over a hundred made, all > around 1967). Those in turn begat the PDP-12s, esentially PDP-8/Is merged > with LINCs. I'll be grabbing it but I don't want to act TOO excited about it to the guy I'm getting it from. He offered it all to me for free. I think I'll take him a bottle of champagne to share with his wife or something. =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 3 01:11:40 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. > >Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an > > Well, Linux does run on 10+ year old systems, so on that basis this might > be an OK subject. For example, my Amiga 2000's are over ten years old I > believe, and with the proper accelerator they can run Linux. In fact with > it's merits (yes, I know I'm one of those argueing). > > >item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars > >between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups > >supply corrals for that gunfight. > > This on the otherhand is definitly not a correct topic for the mailing > list, and yes, I think this fact is mentioned in the FAQ. Well, I'm not sure that Wind-blows is really an appropriate topic either but I see people talking about it all the time. I doubt it will 'piss' Bill off since we're talking about how Linux can be used to 'resurrect' ancient and obsolete hardware like 386sx's and so on. Although it's not Altairs, I think it is in the spirit of what we're all about. Heck, every day I wonder why there isn't a Linux PDP-11 port. =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 00:11:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34ADD68D.B5B6DD9E@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 02:48 PM 1/2/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all > >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) > > They used to do that with older games that were originally in 4-color CGA, > going back and redoing them in VGA 256 color. Just a few though. Space Quest > springs to mind... And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've never been good at arcade games). -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 3 00:13:57 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:24:02 References: <3.0.1.16.19980102202402.4427bc1c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801030613.WAA10985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote (after me): > >Every once in a while I see a flavor of 9000/200 that is built into or > >around an HP 2382 terminal housing: small, beige skin, brown bezel around > >9" monochrome CRT. > > That sounds more like the 9000 216 aka 9816. Look at > "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg" and see if that looks like > what you're thinking of. Yep, that is what I was thinking of. > This was a box about the size of a 9133 disk > drive and had 8? expansion slots in the back and no attached monitor or > keybaord. it said 9000 217 on the front top corner. Hmm. I'm going to have to pull my old /320 out to look at it, but that was about the same cross-section, only deeper than the 9133. The CPU plugs into the bottom slot (and has a special connector), then there are several DIO slots above it. > BTW Do you know where I can get a keyboard for a 9816? Do you know if any > of the other keyboards will work on it? I have a bunch of HP-HIL keyboards > and they use that same style connector. I'm not sure if it's the same size > or number of contacts though. I do know that the 9816 keyboard has one > latch on top and the HIL keybaord has two latchs, one on each side. The 9816 keyboard in your picture looks something like the small/standard 2382 keyboard, except the 2382 keyboard has wider function keys across the top row (typical HP terminal) and doesn't have the knob. The 2382 keyboard had a similar modular connector and was not HP-HIL. I don't think I'd chance it. You might want to ask on comp.sys.hp.{hardware,misc} and see if anyone there knows. [Integral PC] > I have heard it called a 9807, ONCE. It's also shown as a 9807 in the > '87 catalog. The IPC is one of my favorites! I have two of them and lots > of software. If you run across any IPCs or accessories or software, I'M > INTERESTED! Yep, they are fun boxes. Unfortunately the only spare bit I have for one right now is a 256KB RAM card. Hmm, what would I like to find? Technical BASIC. I gather it installs into the ROM cartridge in the back of the machine. Mine just seems to have the System V version of HP-UX for the IPC. -Frank McConnell From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 00:32:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. References: <01bd180b$0f9d0ee0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <34ADDB85.6564786D@cnct.com> Bill Girnius wrote: > > Most of the tandy printers where serial. Does the DMP have a DIN cable, a No, _most_ Tandy printers were parallel. The computers theirselves had custom connectors, the other end was a Centronics-34. > D cable or a Centronics cable. Most had a serial DIN cable and you would > have to make a custom cable that went from a PC"s serial port to the DIN on > the printer. If it's a D connector you should be able to use a straight > through serial cable. Getting it to talk, will be the next interesting > part. Im not sure how they communicated, but you might be able to get at > least text out of it. Let me know how it comes out. The DIN cable was strictly for the Color Computer line. Even the printer which was almost the Siamese twin to the first Color Computers, the LP-VII, had the parallel port. And any PC comcrapable will talk to them. The only "problem" is that early Tandy printers accept a carriage return as both a carriage return and a line feed -- as the computers use that internally in text files. Tandy's later printers took a command (later a physical switch setting) so that PCs wouldn't double-space by sending both codes. All of the "DMP" printers accept this code, as do the daisy wheels starting with the DWP-IIB. Tandy supplied a device driver for their PC comcrapables to prevent the machines (and it works on other PC clones) to make PCs not send the unnecessary line-feed. > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Deschamps > To: Multiple recipients of list COCO > Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 4:45 PM > Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. > > >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel > >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the manual, > >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the manual. > >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and which > >driver did you use in Windows? > > > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to a > >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, which > >part number > >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? I don't recall the catalog number, but it's in the current catalog. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From dwalterm at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 00:59:01 1998 From: dwalterm at ix.netcom.com (Don Walterman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Sinclair Spectrum +3 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980103015901.007a54f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> I am just starting to use this 1985 Z80 computer and wonder if anyone else has one. It has a built in 3" (not 3.5") drive. Its the last of the Sinclair computers. It also runs CP/M 3.0. I'd be interested if anyone knows about a UK company called Spectre Communications that made a plug in RS232 board and comunication package for it. Don Walterman From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 01:11:37 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801030711.CAA13308@server1.netpath.net> At 01:11 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on >the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux >fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've >never been good at arcade games). The best to me back then weren't the arcade games. I mean you have to admit it's a little hard to conceptualize something in a 128x48 grid. Nope, the games that did it for me back then were the text parsing adventure games (infocom, etc.) Although there were some games that never die, and I still play (Anyone remember Space War?) and of course Combat on the Atari 2600. I've got a CD full of abandonware games that I have slowly put together from websites that seem to go down as fast as they come up. There are ancient games on that CD that I have never played. Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm are they? - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 3 01:52:43 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? In-Reply-To: pvhp@forte.com's message of Fri, 2 Jan 98 21:51:17 PST References: <9801030551.AA16114@forte.com> Message-ID: <199801030752.XAA13970@daemonweed.reanimators.org> pvhp@forte.com (Peter Prymmer) wrote: > I am brimming with curiosity about the MPE OS: What is it like? ObAdvocacy: K00L3R THAN L1NUX!!!! It's stable like a rock, and doesn't need a lot of maintenance. You want a system that can stay up for a year? Choose MPE. > Having tried to glean some info from the HP web site I can only > surmise that the target market is mid to large businesses and > might be comparable to IBM AS/400 or Mainframe type computing > environments. Am I right? Yep, pretty much. Historically, 3000s have been aimed at transaction-processing environments. There have been efforts to push 3000s into office automation roles but they really didn't stick, both because PCs got cheap and because 3000s (particularly the classics) really didn't do interactive character terminal I/O very well. > If that is the case I am curious: does MPE run with ASCII or EBCDIC > character sets? ASCII. But there's some presumption (in many applications, including some of the configuration tools) that you will be using an HP terminal that supports block mode, which (approximately) lets the application use the terminal's memory as a buffer for a form, so that the user can do his editing in the terminal then transmit the completed form to the 3000 in a fast block transfer. > Does MPE support a UNIX like environment - even as an option? If you're running MPE/iX, yes. :RUN SH.HPBIN.SYS and you will get a $ prompt. > What is the shell like? The MPE command interpreter...well, I can't speak for the MPE/iX CI. I haven't used it enough. The classic MPE CI is not really like a Unix shell -- there are a bunch of internal commands that look like they do their own filename globbing depending on whether they handle filesets or not, there aren't really pipes (instead there are "message files" which are sort of record-structured FIFOs with disc-file backing store). > What is the C compiler like? For MPE/iX, it's available and seems to be a somewhat modern C compiler for PA-RISC 1.0. GCC has also been ported to MPE/iX. At Wollongong, we used a third-party C compiler that sometimes made me wish SPL supported structure/record declarations. It was a slow compiler, and it had a really conservative approach to addressing modes...though I managed to find ways around some of its conservatism. > Editors? Well, you get EDIT/3000, which is a line-oriented editor that is suitable for use on all manner of terminals, even the printing ones. I believe someone ported MicroEMACS to MPE/iX a while back, and you definitely get vi with it. There are also several third-party editors, some in the Interex contributed software library (e.g. QUAD, which includes a pseudo-screen editing mode) and some commercial (e.g. Robelle's QEDIT, which lots of 3000 folks swear by). > How long has it been on the market? 25 years. -Frank McConnell From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 02:07:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <199801030711.CAA13308@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34ADF1B1.CC3AD1D@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 01:11 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on > >the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux > >fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've > >never been good at arcade games). > > The best to me back then weren't the arcade games. I mean you have to admit > it's a little hard to conceptualize something in a 128x48 grid. Nope, the > games that did it for me back then were the text parsing adventure games > (infocom, etc.) Although there were some games that never die, and I still > play (Anyone remember Space War?) and of course Combat on the Atari 2600. > I've got a CD full of abandonware games that I have slowly put together from > websites that seem to go down as fast as they come up. There are ancient > games on that CD that I have never played. That 128x48 monochrome grid let stuff move like a bat out of Chicago. Amazing how smoothly low-res graphics animates when you're distracted and trying not to get killed. Spacewar was my favorite game ever (though Missile Command came close a year or two later). My running partner and me used to hog that machine at the Saint James Infirmary in Sunnyvale for hours back in '78-'79, sending somebody over to grab us a fresh pitcher every once in a while. And yes, I love the old text adventures. Brains, not reflexes. These days, the closest you can get is when Altavista changes its search engine syntax _again_ and you've got to find out how to track down some actual information. So of _course_ my Linux box has the interpreters for Infocom and Scott Adams adventures at full power. Plus Rogue, Nethack, old Hack, Omega, and a gagload of other old "travel to strange lands, meet strange creatures, and kill or be killed by them". I'll admit I enjoy the first level of Doom (the only level I've been on -- no reflexes, I dies easy), especially since the novels came out co-written by my old friend Brad Lineaweaver. > > Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software > cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's > computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt > todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be > freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase > productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm > are they? > Activision was selling the Infocom library within the last year -- they might still be doing so. A CD with all of the old clues (like the postcards from "Planetfall" and the comic book from "Leather Goddesses of Phobos") as graphics, except for the scratch'n'sniff bits. I'll admit that the Big-5 arcade stuff was never ported by the boys in Van Nuys -- but they do run well through the emulators on WinDoze and Unix systems. And unless the author (or corporate copyright holder) actually releases the product, there's nothing we can ethically do to hurry the process. I'm that weird sort of libertarian who considers intellectual property rights to be even more sacred than geographic property rights. Accept what is freely given -- but don't get pushy. You are always free to write your own version. And then sell it. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 01:58:58 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <34ADD68D.B5B6DD9E@cnct.com> References: <199801030318.WAA05055@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: >And none of those ganes were ever as good as the "Big-5" series on >the old TRS-80's with their monochrome 128x48 "graphics". The Linux >fight is over, it's time for an arcade-game dicksize war. (And I've >never been good at arcade games). Omega Race on either the Vic-20 or Commodore 64! Without a doubt the greatest arcade game ever! I to suck at video games, but I'm amazed by how much better I'm able to do now with a C-64 running Omega Race (I've not been able to get another copy for the Vic) and a pair of Atari game paddles! Those game paddles seem to make all the difference. Sorry, I refuse to believe I've actually gotten better at the game after taking a 10+ year break :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 09:03:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: HP 85 printer belt PN Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103090339.44971004@intellistar.net> I don't remember who asked for the part number for the HP 85 printer drive belt but I finally dug out my service manual and found the numbers. There are two belts in the printer. One drives the carriage and is PN 1500-0529. The other drives the paper advance and is PN 1500-0572. If one is bad you should go ahead and replace both. During the week you can call HP's automated ordering line at 1-800-227-8164 and order them if they're still available. Let me know if these are still available and what they cost. If you can't get them, let me know and I'll open up one of my 85s and measure the belts and to to match them up with something from Small Parts Inc or one of the other companies. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 09:41:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:02 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103094131.2af7fa4e@intellistar.net> At 01:06 AM 1/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >> >> A LINC!!???!?!?! >> > >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > >PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep >THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D > > That's even better, that way it will be all packed and ready. Just tell us where your basement is :-) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 09:54:08 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff Now HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <199801030613.WAA10985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103095408.2af7c244@intellistar.net> > >[Integral PC] > > >Yep, they are fun boxes. Unfortunately the only spare bit I have for one >right now is a 256KB RAM card. > >Hmm, what would I like to find? Technical BASIC. I gather it installs into >the ROM cartridge in the back of the machine. Mine just seems to have the >System V version of HP-UX for the IPC. Yeap, it plugs into the socket under the panel on the back. I have one Tech BASIC ROM, also have TWO! System Engineering ROMs (Unix in a ROM) and even have a Service ROM. I also have Tech BASIC on disk. Now you just need to find an Integral! BTW I found a HP 7912 at a surplus store. It's about 18" wide and 2 foot deep and three foot tall. I *think* it's a 600+ Meg hard drive with a built-in tape drive. Do you know for sure? I need a couple of external hard drives if you know where I can find one. I'd rather have something like a 9133, 7959 etc instead of a monster like the 7912! > >-Frank McConnell > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 10:01:51 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801030711.CAA13308@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103100151.2af7b79c@intellistar.net> At 02:11 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software >cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's >computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt >todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be >freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase >productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm >are they? > > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? Joe From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 08:45:13 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems Message-ID: <199801031445.JAA04475@server1.netpath.net> At 10:01 AM 1/3/98, you wrote: > While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy >old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless >with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all >sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if >we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? They care because they can keep a xerox copy of those manuals around to sell to us for the unholy figure of $35-$50 if someone ever actually asks them for one. (Not naming names, but one company that does this rhymes with Sandy.) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 10:53:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801031445.JAA04475@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103105346.46875eae@intellistar.net> At 09:45 AM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:01 AM 1/3/98, you wrote: > >> While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy >>old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless >>with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all >>sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if >>we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? > >They care because they can keep a xerox copy of those manuals around to sell >to us for the unholy figure of $35-$50 if someone ever actually asks them >for one. (Not naming names, but one company that does this rhymes with Sandy.) > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net At least "sandy" will sell you one. Try to get one from HP. I had to argue with them to try and convince them that they ever built a 9825. The people on their parts ordering line know absoulutely nothing about their company's products. If they do have one, try to get it for $35-$50! More likely $180! Joe > > > From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Jan 3 09:51:04 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <57c9a27.34ae5e6a@aol.com> Actually, the ELKS webpage mentions that it should be technically possible and not-too-difficult to port ELKS to PDP-11 In a message dated 98-01-03 01:08:46 EST, you write: << > >This argument is going to piss off Bill Whitson when he next checks in. > >Linux is _not_ within the scopy of this mailing list. And I recall an > > Well, Linux does run on 10+ year old systems, so on that basis this might > be an OK subject. For example, my Amiga 2000's are over ten years old I > believe, and with the proper accelerator they can run Linux. In fact with > it's merits (yes, I know I'm one of those argueing). > > >item in the FAQ that this _not_ the right place for dicksize wars > >between proponents of different systems -- the "advocacy" newsgroups > >supply corrals for that gunfight. > > This on the otherhand is definitly not a correct topic for the mailing > list, and yes, I think this fact is mentioned in the FAQ. Well, I'm not sure that Wind-blows is really an appropriate topic either but I see people talking about it all the time. I doubt it will 'piss' Bill off since we're talking about how Linux can be used to 'resurrect' ancient and obsolete hardware like 386sx's and so on. Although it's not Altairs, I think it is in the spirit of what we're all about. Heck, every day I wonder why there isn't a Linux PDP-11 port. =-) Wirehead - Anthony Clifton >> From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jan 3 10:07:06 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Emulator mailing list? In-Reply-To: <199801030613.WAA10985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Does any one know of classic computer or gameconsole emulator e-mail mailing list? I was subscribed to one, that discussed MAME to a large extent, but have since been unsubscribed and I can't seem to get back. Please send me any details if you know of such list servs. Thanks, CORD ############################################################################## # Cord G. Coslor -- P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE # # (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 # # Classic computer software and hardware collector # # Autograph collector # ############################################################################## #The##/ ___ /#/ ___ /##/ ___ /#/ /##/ /#/_ __/#/ /#/ /#/ _____## #####/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /##/ /##/__/#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /####### ####/ ___ /#/ _ __/##/ /#######/ ___ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ _____/### ###/ /##/ /#/ /#\ \###/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /######### ##/__/##/__/#/_/###\_\#/________/#/__/##/__/#/______/#/_______/#/________/#### ############################################################################## From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jan 3 10:26:13 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Sinclair Spectrum +3 References: <3.0.5.32.19980103015901.007a54f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <34AE66A5.7E5B@ndirect.co.uk> Don Walterman wrote: > > I am just starting to use this 1985 Z80 computer and wonder if > anyone else has one. It has a built in 3" (not 3.5") drive. > Its the last of the Sinclair computers. It also runs CP/M 3.0. > I'd be interested if anyone knows about a UK company called > Spectre Communications that made a plug in RS232 board and > comunication package for it. > > Don Walterman I think that ALL the Spectrum satellite manufacturers went with their belly up a long time ago..... enrico From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 11:26:12 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <57c9a27.34ae5e6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Zeus334 wrote: > > Actually, the ELKS webpage mentions that it should be technically possible and > not-too-difficult to port ELKS to PDP-11 V7 and BSD ran fine on the PDP-11. All it will take to port ELKS will be somebody with access to PDP-11 hardware, a working Linux system, and too much time on their hands. To quote a movie from twenty years back, "we're just the kind of (expletive deleted)s to do it. Oh, it will take more knowledge of PDP hardware than I have, so let me respond to my other email and see if we can get Allison a functional Linux system. -- Ward Griffiths Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 3 11:29:48 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 3, 98 12:26:12 pm Message-ID: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/a7d7cdd4/attachment.ksh From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 3 12:37:00 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980103094131.2af7fa4e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > >> A LINC!!???!?!?! > > > >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > > > >PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep > >THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D > > > > > That's even better, that way it will be all packed and ready. Just tell > us where your basement is :-) > Well you'd have to get past The Attack Cats of Lurking Evil, The Pet Rats of Flailing Vengence and The Death Bunny. After that you'd have to navigate the basement without having a giant bookshelf or computer topple over on you, crushing you. After that you'd have to carry the equipment upstairs avoiding the Doorknob of Bruised Hips, The Furniture of Hunger that feeds on unwary shins and finally Steps Into The Abyss at the front porch which never seem to be where you remembered them. =-) Indiana Jones and the Computer Room of Doom Wirehead - Anthony Clifton From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Jan 3 12:29:01 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Ultrix/RISC 4.3 or NetBSD anyone? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103102901.00e39560@mail.wizards.net> At the risk of asking a loaded question... Thanks to Jim Willing, I've become the proud(?) owner of my first DECStation 3100. As a RISC box, I'm given to understand it will only run Ultrix and NetBSD (is there a Linux port for it?) With that in mind... does anyone happen to have: * An Ultrix 4.3/RISC or higher CD that they can loan me long enough to install? * Suggestions for where to obtain NetBSD on bootable CD-ROM? * A guide for creating a bootable CD-ROM using NetBSD files downloaded from the 'net? (I have a Yamaha CD writer). Thanks in advance. Thanks again to Jim. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 3 12:42:53 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff Now HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:54:08 References: <3.0.1.16.19980103095408.2af7c244@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801031842.KAA06993@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > Yeap, it plugs into the socket under the panel on the back. I have one > Tech BASIC ROM, also have TWO! System Engineering ROMs (Unix in a ROM) and > even have a Service ROM. I also have Tech BASIC on disk. Now you just need > to find an Integral! Very cool! Where did you find those ROMs? I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do something with it. Back when they were new I looked at buying one, and that seemed to be how you were expected to do things: if you actually wanted to wrangle code in C you needed the hard disk. Kind of made me wonder why they made it portable. Also I could never get a straight answer on whether the HP terminal windows were capable of block-mode (like I needed to talk to the 3000). > BTW I found a HP 7912 at a surplus store. It's about 18" wide and 2 foot > deep and three foot tall. I *think* it's a 600+ Meg hard drive with a > built-in tape drive. Do you know for sure? I need a couple of external > hard drives if you know where I can find one. I'd rather have something > like a 9133, 7959 etc instead of a monster like the 7912! 7912...I'm rusty on these, but it's nowhere near 600MB. I'm thinking more like 60 or 130MB. -Frank McConnell From dlw at neosoft.com Sat Jan 3 07:07:27 1998 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Looking for info In-Reply-To: References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801031904.NAA01177@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Anyone have any info an a Tek 6130? Also, anything on a DS200MC terminal server? I don't know if these are classic or modern. Thanks. From weese at mind.net Sat Jan 3 14:05:28 1998 From: weese at mind.net (Lynn & Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <199801032007.MAA09206@one.mind.net> > Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go 1%, & God went the other 99. So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... Regards, ---mikey From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Jan 3 14:38:48 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <31f6f0ed.34aea1dc@aol.com> Um, I'm not sure what you just said, but: a) I'm sure this has nothing to do with old computers, unless God stands for Graphic Output Device :) b)I think you mean that if one tries to disprove Jesus, they automatically God's followers, but,once again, I'm not sure Original Message: << > Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go 1%, & God went the other 99. So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... Regards, ---mikey >> From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 15:52:40 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Ultrix/RISC 4.3 or NetBSD anyone? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980103102901.00e39560@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: > Thanks to Jim Willing, I've become the proud(?) owner of my first >DECStation 3100. As a RISC box, I'm given to understand it will only run >Ultrix and NetBSD (is there a Linux port for it?) Should run VMS, unless it's not the 3100 I'm thinking of, and that's actually not to hard to get and only costs about $30 to get it. First get a free membership with DECUS (a simple matter of signing up), then order the Hobbiest VMS CD (requires DECUS membership and ~$30 shipping and handling). So far I've done the first part, I really need to get the CD ordered. But then I also need to get my VAXstation II/RC a new Hard Drive prior to worring about that. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 3 16:17:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032217.AA24056@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34AEB90B.F9B964D4@enterprise.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > > Thanks to Jim Willing, I've become the proud(?) owner of my first > DECStation 3100. Please ignore my prevoius ramblings. For some reason I read 'DECStation 3100' as 'VAXStation 3100' until the moment after I had clicked on Send :-( Apologies Pete From Jjcn.Garrett at btinternet.com Sat Jan 3 16:07:53 1998 From: Jjcn.Garrett at btinternet.com (Judy Garrett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 manual needed Message-ID: I am the owner of a Kaypro 10 computer kindly left to me by a deceased friend, unfortunately I have no manual which restricts my use of the computer. can you help me please? Dave From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 16:50:34 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA21913@mxu2.u.washington.edu> > Actually, It took a few minutes for works even to start up! We were editing > one-page documents. The Leading Edge Model D I have had two experiences with. > In one case it was ENIAC-speed (clock? oh, yeah, it's 3:30!) and the other it > was 286-speed. It should _fly_ on a 286. Were you running off the world's slowest HDD? (Actually, this is probably moot. As I understand you, the compooter isn't around anymore?) Anyway, mine's pretty quick. From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 16:46:09 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Old S/W (wasRe: operating systems) Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA16078@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > This works 2.0 is best example of user interface without interrupting > your train of thought and look as you go...And no playing games of > guessing buried in GUI menus, waiting for fancy features to load in > on demand. ...except that it doesn't work _exactly_ as the Win keystrokes do (I don't remember just what). > And keep that hands on that keyboard is BIG plus > especially without fuction keys and mouse. Yeah, I like that, too. The only time I use a mouse (mostly) is in drawing programs and #@$#%$ MS Schedule Plus, with which I have to use the mouse to dial a number. Stupid! > And another good example > was News Xpress had same user interface but the next version totally > lost it, using windows crap. :( That is one another big reason I'm > looking at linux ongoing basis. I have MSW 2 on my laptop, as I'm developing a spreadsheet app for a customer (old church with a non-Windows 386). It's legal to load multiple versions if you own the program. manney From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:01:50 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA19563@mx5.u.washington.edu> I note that you *N*X users mention recompiling the kernel. Is that something peculiar to the UNIX/LINUX world? Is it done by the average user? I presume (from "context clues", as my fourth grade son's homework puts it) that it provides a smaller/faster/more crashproof installation. I've always run CP/M and Bill's M$-DO$ and have no experience with UNIX. Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? manney From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:13:07 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n Message-ID: <199801032319.PAA02132@mx4.u.washington.edu> I don't know RS stuff all that well. I'm assuming yours is a parallel printer. > >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel > >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the manual, > >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the manual. Many radio Schlock printers will work with some PC's and not others. I get the best luck with the newer motherboards (486/Pentium). > >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and which > >driver did you use in Windows? Use the "Generic" driver > > > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to a > >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, which > >part number > >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? Weren't the COCO's serial? If the DMP-100's parallel, she won't work. btw, I do have several RS "edge card" parallel cables (a la Tandy 1000) if anyone wants. Given the recent prices mentioned for Lisas and Apples, maybe I should ask $100 each for 'em! manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:20:30 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032332.PAA06715@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software > cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's > computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt > todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be > freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase > productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm > are they? Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out again. Copyrights are what? 37 years? As someone who produces intellectual property (Photos and -- occasionally -- software), I appreciate copyright protection. Can't tell you why the self appointed software cops go after 'em...maybe because they're easy? manney From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 3 17:23:50 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: John's RANT was Re: operating systems Message-ID: <199801032332.PAA16538@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > While we're on the subject, I'll throw in my gripe. Why can't we copy > old computer manuals? Most of the computers and software are worthless > with the manuals. HP and the other companies gave up all > sales/support/service of these things years ago, why should they care if > we copy manuals that they don't sell any more? I'll agree there. Manuals' copyrights should expire after the software is no longer supported. manney From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 17:37:24 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Interesting Floppy Controller Message-ID: Normally I wouldn't do something like this, but I suspect I'm not the only one that will find this of interest. I'm posting some of the data because the web page is almost impossibly slow! Well looking for new Amiga web pages I found a most interesting Web page about the "Catweasel Advanced Floppy Controller". It can be found at http://www.rat.de/apd/catweasl.htm basically there are two flavors, one for a standard IBM PC, and one for the Amiga. Since it's primarily for use with the Amiga the Amiga version is more advanced, but even the PC version is most interesting. I've seen these for sale by some of the Amiga companies, but I didn't realise the wide variety of formats supported. Now I'm seriously thinking about getting one for my PC and one for my Amiga! Zane Here is a list of the formats the Web page lists. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Catweasel uses standard 3.5inch and 5.25 inch floppy drives and reads the following formats: These File-systems are supported: - CBM 1541 (DOS 2A) - CBM 1571 (DOS 2A), single-sided & double-sided - Amiga OFS - Amiga OFS localised - Amiga FFS - Amiga FFS localised - PC FAT12 - PC FAT16 - PC VFAT12 - PC VFAT16 via disk-image file (and therefore also sector by sector) - CBM 1541, 5.25" single-sided 170 KB - CBM 1571, 5.25" single-sided 170 KB - CBM 1571, 5.25" double-sided 341 KB - CBM 1581, 3.5" double-sided 800 KB - Amiga, 3.5", double-sided 880 KB - Amiga, 3.5", double-sided 1760 KB - Amiga, 5.25", double-sided 880 KB - Amiga, 5.25", double-sided 1760 KB - Atari ST, 3.5", double-sided 720 KB - Atari ST, 3.5", double-sided 800 KB - Atari ST, 3.5", double-sided 1440 KB - IBM PC, 3.5", double-sided 720 KB - IBM PC, 3.5", double-sided 1440 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 360 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 720 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 800 KB - IBM PC, 5.25", double-sided 1200 KB - Catweasel-Extra, 3.5", double-sided 1160 KB - Catweasel-Extra, 3.5", double-sided 2380 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", single-sided 400 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", double-sided 720 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", double-sided 800 KB - Apple Macintosh, 3.5", double-sided 1440 KB - Apple IIe, 5.25", single-sided 140 KB (sector access only) Sinclair QL (soon:) Atari 800XL (amiga catweasel can, read-only in the moment) (not yet) Armstrad 3" (please send us a drive and some floppies) (not yet) 8 inch Floppy (please send us a drive and floppies) (not yet) Any other Shugart floppy (please send us a drive and floppies) Currently only the Amiga version can write (most of them) to disk. The PC-ISA Catweasel will be able to write in the future... only a software update is needed!! It won't be too long now! The software for the PC-ISA Version can handle 4 controllers (8 Floppy Drives!) and uses no DMA and no IRQ! | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 19:38:21 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103193821.3507109e@intellistar.net> Geez!!! What a waste! A good friend of mine was the project manager in building the shuttle launch complex at VAFB. You wouldn't believe the cost and time this took! It was built many years after the one at KSC had been built and many plans were lost and had to be redrawn EXACTLY! like the site at KSC. Same with much of the machinery, almost all was out of production and new tooling had to be built (at unlimited expense) to manufacture you guessed it, EXACTLY!, the same parts. This place cost like it was built of solid gold! AND NEVER USED! Makes me sick to think about it. Joe At 09:29 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >Like many folks on this list, I regularly look over descriptions >of government surplus auctions for good stuff. Occasionally I >find something which is too large for even me. For instance, if >anyone wants to buy a chunk of a space shuttle launch complex, they should >check out: > > http://www.gsa.gov/pbs/pr/disposal/21ee.htm > >Shipping is FOB Vandenberg AFB :-) > >Tim. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 19:42:05 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980103094131.2af7fa4e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103194205.35074a26@intellistar.net> At 12:37 PM 1/3/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >> >> A LINC!!???!?!?! >> > >> >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton >> > >> >PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep >> >THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D >> > >> > >> That's even better, that way it will be all packed and ready. Just tell >> us where your basement is :-) >> >Well you'd have to get past The Attack Cats of Lurking Evil, The Pet Rats >of Flailing Vengence and The Death Bunny. After that you'd have to >navigate the basement without having a giant bookshelf or computer topple >over on you, crushing you. After that you'd have to carry the equipment >upstairs avoiding the Doorknob of Bruised Hips, The Furniture of Hunger >that feeds on unwary shins and finally Steps Into The Abyss at the front >porch which never seem to be where you remembered them. =-) No problem. Sounds just like my house only we have Killer Parakeets as well! > >Indiana Jones and the Computer Room of Doom > >Wirehead - Anthony Clifton > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 15:47:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 2, 98 09:53:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/54f75784/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 15:43:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info needed. In-Reply-To: <01bd180b$0f9d0ee0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> from "Bill Girnius" at Jan 2, 98 11:47:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/258ad3d3/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Jan 3 18:12:42 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980103161242.00735964@ferrari.sfu.ca> There'd be a bit of a problem fitting this into the basement. Maybe I could erect it in the backyard... Kevin At 09:29 AM 98/01/03 -0800, you wrote: >Like many folks on this list, I regularly look over descriptions >of government surplus auctions for good stuff. Occasionally I >find something which is too large for even me. For instance, if >anyone wants to buy a chunk of a space shuttle launch complex, they should >check out: > > http://www.gsa.gov/pbs/pr/disposal/21ee.htm > >Shipping is FOB Vandenberg AFB :-) > >Tim. > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:13:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff Now HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <199801031842.KAA06993@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.1.16.19980103095408.2af7c244@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103201354.35072fb2@intellistar.net> At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> Yeap, it plugs into the socket under the panel on the back. I have one >> Tech BASIC ROM, also have TWO! System Engineering ROMs (Unix in a ROM) and >> even have a Service ROM. I also have Tech BASIC on disk. Now you just need >> to find an Integral! > >Very cool! Where did you find those ROMs? I was looking for a memory board and put some ads on the net. One guy responded and said that he had a complete system. He had bought it new and only used it for a short time before realizing that the whole world was going to the IBM PC ( ca 1985). He put it all away and didn't get it out again till I bought it. He wasn't kidding that it was complete. I got every package of software that HP sold for it, all of the service manuals (four different ones!), the service ROM, BASIC ROM, two SE ROMs, RS-232 board, 9133, memory boards, etc. Turns out that one of his friends worked for HP when HP quit supporting the IPC and he grabbed a lot of stuff that HP was going to throw out. The seals on the boxes had never been broken on most of the stuff. A guy here in town has a IPC that his company bought for him YEARS ago and he was traveling all over the world building hydro-electric dams. He gave me his old travel case for the IPC. I didn't even know that they made one. You wouldn't believe some of the places his IPC has been to! He took it into places where they had never even seen an electric light bulb! > >I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- >just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix >utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do >something with it. > >Back when they were new I looked at buying one, and that seemed to be >how you were expected to do things: if you actually wanted to wrangle >code in C you needed the hard disk. Kind of made me wonder why they >made it portable. At least it didn't require a 7912 !!! I found the 7912 specs in a catalog. It's 65 Megs and the size of a small washing machine! BTW I have HP 2602 printer that would go real well with YOUR IPC. Make you a helluva deal on it. Also I could never get a straight answer on whether >the HP terminal windows were capable of block-mode (like I needed to >talk to the 3000). I'm pretty sure it does. HP was very big on block mode terminals. I have HP Term if you need it. > >> BTW I found a HP 7912 at a surplus store. It's about 18" wide and 2 foot >> deep and three foot tall. I *think* it's a 600+ Meg hard drive with a >> built-in tape drive. Do you know for sure? I need a couple of external >> hard drives if you know where I can find one. I'd rather have something >> like a 9133, 7959 etc instead of a monster like the 7912! > >7912...I'm rusty on these, but it's nowhere near 600MB. I'm thinking >more like 60 or 130MB. It's 65! I should get it and tear it down just to figure out why it has so little capacity to be so big! > >-Frank McConnell > BTW I'm building a website. I'm putting the IPC on tonight, should be up shortly. It should be at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/integral.htm". ALSO I have instructions on how to upgrade the IPC 256K mem boards to 1 Meg if you want them. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:17:40 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Large (non-computer) hardware auction In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980103161242.00735964@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <9801031729.AA04438@alph02.triumf.ca> <34AE74B3.3A26A506@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103201740.350755d2@intellistar.net> Cool idea. That should have enough room to store all those old computers. ITOH maybe you could find someone that collects old rockets. At 04:12 PM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >There'd be a bit of a problem fitting this into the basement. Maybe I could >erect it in the backyard... > >Kevin > > >At 09:29 AM 98/01/03 -0800, you wrote: >>Like many folks on this list, I regularly look over descriptions >>of government surplus auctions for good stuff. Occasionally I >>find something which is too large for even me. For instance, if >>anyone wants to buy a chunk of a space shuttle launch complex, they should >>check out: >> >> http://www.gsa.gov/pbs/pr/disposal/21ee.htm >> >>Shipping is FOB Vandenberg AFB :-) >> >>Tim. >> >> > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 18:25:07 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <199801032319.PAA19563@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >I note that you *N*X users mention recompiling the kernel. Is that >something peculiar to the UNIX/LINUX world? Is it done by the average user? I think most or at least some commercial UNIX versions have you link the Kernal to get the device drivers loaded that you'll need, although they are starting to get away from this need. Most commercial versions don't include the source so you can't do a total recompile. Recompiling the Kernal has been a part of Linux from the very beginning, a lot of versions of the Kernal have only been available as source. Actual Linux distributions do include "Generic" precompiled Kernals. >I presume (from "context clues", as my fourth grade son's homework puts it) >that it provides a smaller/faster/more crashproof installation. Smaller because it doesn't have all the garbage you don't need, although mine always end up bigger than they need to, because I include a lot of extra filesystems that I "might" want, but never do. Faster because you can have it optimized for the specific processor you are running (i.e. 486 or Pentium). I don't know about more crashproof, but you can get it so that it supports hardware that you've got in your system that isn't supported by the generic kernals, but that drivers exist for. >I've always run CP/M and Bill's M$-DO$ and have no experience with UNIX. >Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program >much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? A much better and more stable OS is what you would get. However, if it isn't something you are interested in doing, the fact that it's better isn't a compelling enough reason to try it. As an example at home my primary machine is a Macintosh, I know that my Pentium running Linux is more stable, and runs a better OS. But I am far more productive on my Macintosh, and the Applications that I want to run are available on the Mac. Oh, and I was running Linux for several years prior to buying my first Mac. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 18:27:33 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <199801032332.PAA06715@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out >again. I played a demo of the new Frogger on my Playstation, it's NOTHING like the original! Give me the original any day, it was all on the screen at one time! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:22:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n In-Reply-To: <199801032319.PAA02132@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103202212.35077184@intellistar.net> At 06:13 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Weren't the COCO's serial? If the DMP-100's parallel, she won't work. > Yeap, at least the first two CoCO model were serial only. >Given the recent prices mentioned for Lisas and Apples, maybe I should ask >$100 each for 'em! > >manney@nwohio.com Whew! Good thing I got that 9831 when I did! > > From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Jan 3 18:30:13 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <2cf1880d.34aed818@aol.com> > As an example at home my primary machine is a Macintosh, I know that my > Pentium running Linux is more stable, and runs a better OS. But I am far > more productive on my Macintosh, and the Applications that I want to run >are available on the Mac. Which IS what I meant at the beginning that started this whole little discussion! Linux is trying to compete with Windows 95 and MacOS, but is not designed around getting documents typed, and stuff like that, so the average user would be awfully unproductive, and the "power user" would spend years tweaking their shell script and recompiling the kernel to run vi perfectly, which can't even do fonts! From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 3 18:34:53 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n In-Reply-To: <199801032319.PAA02132@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > I don't know RS stuff all that well. I'm assuming yours is a parallel > printer. > > > >I was wondering if I can connect my DMP-100 to a PC through the parallel > > >port in the back and if I need a special cable ? According to the > manual, > > >this port was made for TRS-80 only. It doesn't talk about PC in the > manual. > Many radio Schlock printers will work with some PC's and not others. I get > the best luck with the newer motherboards (486/Pentium). One of the problems with using a RS printer on a PC is that the RS units all (most?) add a linefeed in the printer firmware. If you do not know the escape sequence to disable it everything comes out doublespaced. And not all of their escape sequences were the same. - don > > >If someone was able to connect it to a PC, please let me know how and > which > > >driver did you use in Windows? > Use the "Generic" driver > > > > > > >I was wondering if someone has a spare cable to connect this printer to > a > > >TRS-80 COCO II or III (using the DIN connector) to giveaway ? If not, > which > > >part number > > >do I need to order from Radio Shack ? > Weren't the COCO's serial? If the DMP-100's parallel, she won't work. > > btw, I do have several RS "edge card" parallel cables (a la Tandy 1000) if > anyone wants. > > Given the recent prices mentioned for Lisas and Apples, maybe I should ask > $100 each for 'em! > > manney@nwohio.com > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 18:38:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 2, 98 09:53:54 pm Message-ID: >But Linux itself is not yet 10 years old (AFAIK). So IMHO it should not Correct, the first version 0.10 was released in either October or November of '91, and the first widely available version 0.12 was released in January of '92. After that it jumped to 0.95 (the first version to support logging in, the first 3 just dumped you in as root). The jump from 0.12 to 0.95 was something Linus later realized was a mistake as the kernal wasn't as far along as he realized, and resulted in some very convoluted version numbers. IIRC it finally reached 1.0 in November of '93. Since 1.0 the version numbers have made a LOT more sense :^) I'm honestly amazed that it's over six years old, it doesn't seem that long! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 18:45:55 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <199801032319.PAA19563@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34AEDBC3.6D10AB83@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > I note that you *N*X users mention recompiling the kernel. Is that > something peculiar to the UNIX/LINUX world? Is it done by the average user? > > I presume (from "context clues", as my fourth grade son's homework puts it) > that it provides a smaller/faster/more crashproof installation. > > I've always run CP/M and Bill's M$-DO$ and have no experience with UNIX. > Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program > much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? The main reason Linux users like to customize and recompile the kernel is the same reason dogs lick their balls: because we _can_. Nobody outside of Redmond ever sees Micro$oft source code. And a source license for "real" Unix is priced far beyond the means of mortal men. It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely have some results on-topic for this mailing list. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 20:48:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 manual needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103204811.3d5fdc5c@intellistar.net> At 10:07 PM 1/3/98 -0000, you wrote: >I am the owner of a Kaypro 10 computer kindly left to me by a deceased >friend, unfortunately I have no manual which restricts my use of the >computer. can you help me please? > >Dave > Check with "David Williams - Computer Packrat, dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw". I sent him a pile of KayPro manuals. I think they were for a model 10 and there were a lot of duplicates. Joe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 3 19:23:47 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <34AEDBC3.6D10AB83@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 3, 98 07:45:55 pm Message-ID: <9801040123.AA04854@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1712 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980103/95464f0a/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 3 21:23:45 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <199801032007.MAA09206@one.mind.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980103212345.2407d7d2@intellistar.net> At 12:05 PM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >> Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, >> that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. > > >Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor >misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them >were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying >to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) > >And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a >little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. >So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out >there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go >1%, & God went the other 99. > >So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the >teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can >live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly >have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. > >Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... > >Regards, > >---mikey Yeap, very nice, but how does that connect to Visicalc? Joe From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 19:31:01 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <2cf1880d.34aed818@aol.com> Message-ID: >> As an example at home my primary machine is a Macintosh, I know that my >> Pentium running Linux is more stable, and runs a better OS. But I am far >> more productive on my Macintosh, and the Applications that I want to run > >are available on the Mac. >Which IS what I meant at the beginning that started this whole little >discussion! Linux is trying to compete with Windows 95 and MacOS, but is not >designed around getting documents typed, and stuff like that, so the average >user would be awfully unproductive, and the "power user" would spend years >tweaking their shell script and recompiling the kernel to run vi perfectly, >which can't even do fonts! Actually it's because I'm a "Power Graphics User" that I got the Mac. The Graphics apps on the Mac have had far more time to mature than on the PC or UNIX (many of them actually date back more than ten years, i.e. the period of computing we should be discussing), that is why I'm more productive. I will say though that a Photoshop clone is now available for Linux, for free, that really surprised me when a friend showed it to me the other day! So Linux is fast catching up in even this area The rest of what I do, I could do with Linux, and to a certain extent do (some of it REQUIRES Linux). That's my point, the average user can get everything they need from Linux, and not end up paying Microsoft a small fortune. There are several WYSIWYG Word Processors available for Linux, and all the other programs that the "average" user needs. By using Linux the "average" user could save hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Using Linux I was able to produce documents that printed out that looked far nicer than anything I've used on Windows or Macs with the exception of Adobe Pagemaker or QuarkXpress. Your arguments were initially true back in '92 and maybe '93, but since then are totally false. I'm not saying Linux is for everyone, but it's ease of use is increasing while Windows is decreasing. Oh, and as a UNIX "power user" I tweak my scripts so I can go have fun and let the computer run, knowing it will page me if there is something that requires my attention. Let's face it, every OS has it's advantages. With Windows95 it's the number of programs available (don't mistake numbers for quality). With the Mac, ease of use. With Linux, Power, and freely available. The Amiga is just plain cool! The Atari ST provides a graphical OS in ROM so you don't waste space storing it on disk. The Apple IIe is actually a good computer for the "Average" user, especially since your argument seems to be that all they need is word processing. The IIe through IIgs give you good hardware at what is now a very reasonable price, you can even use it for going online. Many people still use Commodore 64's or TI-99/4A's and the ilk, even going so far in some cases as to surf the web. The point here is, just because YOU don't like something you shouldn't condemn it as being of no use to the Average person. After all a lot of people using these old computers are 'average' people that either don't see the need for a better system because it does what they want, or else they can't afford better. Still it would appear you would condemn them because they don't fit your narrow view of the 'average' user. Personally I'd say that the 'average user' is someone that uses a computer to accomplish some task that they wish to do, and it's up to them to decide how they will do it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From red at bears.org Sat Jan 3 19:24:32 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Searching for Apollo Parts Message-ID: Hullo; I'm trying to finish restoring my Apollo DN5500, but I can't seem to track down the parts I need. Maybe somebody here can help... I need the following for sure: Apollo P/N 012600-01 -- 760 MB ESDI disk (Maxtor XT-8760E) 011778 -- 60 MB SCSI QIC drive (Archive 2060S) SR10.3.5 or 10.4 tapeset (not the 10.4.1 RAI like I've got already). These would also be useful but are not needed: Apollo P/N 12173 -- 8 plane 1280x1024 video board 7550 -- 3 button DOMAIN mouse If you could help me out, I'd appreciate it greatly. This Apollo has been sitting around half-working for too long. Oh, and on an unrelated tangent, I could also use a Mac SE/30 motherboard, which has similarly eluded me. (: Thanks. ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 3 19:30:24 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: New additions: H89A Message-ID: i picked this machine up for free: here's what i got. the H89A in good condition. possible power problem. clean, and in great cosmetic shape. even got the original dust cover for it! external 5.25 floppy drive. about 50 disks with cpm, wordstar, dbase, and several other apps. the best part is the extensive documentation. i have *ALL* the construction manuals,schematics, bios listings, software reference guides, and original disks in their packaging. even had some 8 inch cpm disks included! the person that gave me this machine wants to join the list. if someone can email me directly with what i need to tell him to subscribe, let me know please. david From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jan 3 16:10:48 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: Looking for info In-Reply-To: <199801031904.NAA01177@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103141048.00764204@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:07 PM 1/3/98 +0000, David Williams wrote: >Anyone have any info an a Tek 6130? Would have to check the model number to be sure, but that sounds like a unit I reciently accepted into my collection. What type of info are you looking for? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sat Jan 3 19:50:15 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01bd18b3$1a2b4d60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 4 January 1998 11:46 Subject: Re: UNIX questions? >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. >-- >Ward Griffiths They already HAVE released the source code for OpenDOS. While it is far beyond me to do anything with it, I found it very well commented and interesting. I was amazed at the number of "fixes" for specific hardware. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 19:17:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:03 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <34AEDBC3.6D10AB83@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 3, 98 07:45:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980104/4324dbb4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 19:37:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <2cf1880d.34aed818@aol.com> from "Zeus334" at Jan 3, 98 07:30:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3878 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980104/fd6edcdd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 19:44:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980103202212.35077184@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 3, 98 08:22:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980104/00917dd6/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 3 20:01:42 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: Gee, and I thought this was a classic computer mailing list. silly me... In a message dated 98-01-03 15:42:53 EST, somebody went WAY off topic and said: << Um, I'm not sure what you just said, but: a) I'm sure this has nothing to do with old computers, unless God stands for Graphic Output Device :) b)I think you mean that if one tries to disprove Jesus, they automatically God's followers, but,once again, I'm not sure Original Message: << > Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor misguided fools, Christians. (Didn't occur to me that some of them were very bright, and very skeptical, and had spent years studying to seek truth, & only then became Christians.) And then one day, I was forced to examine my 'beliefs', & was a little surprised to see that they were assumptions only. Bummer. So I had to check it out for myself. Sure is a ton of info out there, some good, some not, but anyway I was finally able to go 1%, & God went the other 99. So I now believe that anyone who diligently tries to disprove the teachings of Jesus, or seeks truth or whatever terminology you can live with -- with any kind of open mind at all (none of us can truly have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. Go and do likewise. Don't be chicken....... Regards, ---mikey >> >> From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 20:38:04 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801040238.VAA30521@server1.netpath.net> At 06:01 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program >much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? Headaches one day, major breakthroughs the next, a trip to the crazy house a few weeks later... I'm a user, and I can honestly say I can quit any time I want! - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 3 20:38:06 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> At 06:20 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out >again. Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old copy of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the internet or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version? I've seen screen shots of this new game... It's alot different, majorly different than the older versions. Alot of 3d stuff going on in there. Now say someone finds that copy of frogger on the internet and downloads it to play on his XT. How does this affect the sale of the new version? You could technically say it does, because if this XT user really wanted the new version of frogger, he'd have a major upgrade path ahead of him, maybe as much as 20 times as the new frogger game costs. >Copyrights are what? 37 years? As someone who produces intellectual >property (Photos and -- occasionally -- software), I appreciate copyright >protection. Sure, I have no problem with recent software protection, but in this case, the game isn't even being sold in it's original form anymore, running on computers that aren't made anymore. Maybe if software companies would take these old titles and put them up on the internet, maybe take online orders for them and charge a very low cost for the games, maybe around $1.00, people might just buy them instead of making "illegal" copies of them. But they don't. Most companies don't even offer support for software that old. I've had that happen numerous times when I'd try to contact a company to get a replacement disk for one that went bad. No dice. Some of the people answering the phone didn't even know they had published the game. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 20:52:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Laser 128 Message-ID: I'm looking for some information on a Laser 128. I've had one for several months now, and have known that it was an Apple clone. Unfortunatly it has a mouse, but no Power Supply. However, a couple days ago I got a second one, this time with no mouse, but it has the Power Supply and an external floppy drive and monitor cable. So I just plugged it into one of my little Apple IIc monitors since one was handy, and I'm happy to say it works. Even boots DOS 3.3 (will it run ProDOS?). One slight problem, the keyboard makes no sense, when I hit a key, something else comes up. Is this because I don't have their version of the OS, or is there a problem with the computer, or what? Any ideas? While I'm at it, will the little IIc green monitors display anything other than 40 columns? Looking at the manuals it looks like I should be able to get my IIc to display 80 columns on it, but I've not been able to. IIRC I have been able to get my Franklin Ace 1200 to run CP/M on one in 80 columns. I'm aware of the 40/80 column button on the IIc, but I've tried two different IIc's with no luck. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Sat Jan 3 22:10:24 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Searching for Apollo Parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You might want to try comp.sys.apollo, and there are several web pages dealing with Apollo systems. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 3 22:19:19 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Great doc find Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103221919.006cace4@pop3.concentric.net> Awhile back there was talk here about getting the documentation for the classic machines as while as the machines themself. I picked up a IBM Guide to Operations manual 6025113 Dated 1981,1982 and listed as the First Edition. In the back was a clear plastic bag with a casette tape for Diagnostic's number 6081562 version 1.02 new and unopened. The book cost me 50 cents at the Goodwill. Also got a AMIGA monitor I believe a 1080 for $15 at Goodwill. I also won the bid on a very large bo full of computers, parts, TV's, microwaves, and other items for 35.00 will list later after I sort it all out. Keep computing !!! John From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 23:12:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <01bd18b3$1a2b4d60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <34AF1A53.5DA4A4AE@cnct.com> Olminkhof wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, 4 January 1998 11:46 > Subject: Re: UNIX questions? > > >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. >Ward Griffiths > > They already HAVE released the source code for OpenDOS. While it is far > beyond me to do anything with it, I found it very well commented and > interesting. I was amazed at the number of "fixes" for specific hardware. You're right -- they _have_. It wasn't there a couple of weeks ago when I was printing out all of the manuals (which are the best that I've ever seen outside of the Linux Documentation Project -- they make the manuals that used to come with MS-DOS look like crap). Well, that takes care of my lunch hour Monday while I dump it from the T-1 to a Zip disk. Have to remember to grab a sandwich at Blimpy's at Newark Penn Station in the morning. Yes, I know a Zip disk has a lot more space than will be needed -- but for some reason I've taken to isolating my archives to avoid confusion. All of my material from Tim Mann's TRS-80 site is on one, all of my AT&T Unix PC material is on another, and so on for the Color Computer, the ST, the Mod 100 etc. Eventually, I'll wind up burning a couple of CDs -- since somebody was kind enough to find an excuse for one at work. Pity that it's attached to an NT box, since I'd prefer to use proper Unix filenames -- but maybe I can sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Htalk my boss into letting me hook it up to one of my RS/6000s for a couple of hours. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 23:22:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <199801040238.VAA30521@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34AF1CAA.7A5F41A6@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 06:01 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >Should I -- I fix boxen and run online and graphics apps; I don't program > >much anymore -- play with UNIX? What would I get out of it? > > Headaches one day, major breakthroughs the next, a trip to the crazy house a > few weeks later... I'm a user, and I can honestly say I can quit any time I > want! Yeah, right. I've been telling myself that for fifteen years since Xenix showed up for the TRS-80 Model 16. Of course, I didn't start on the hard stuff until Linus Torvalds gave me a free sample of source code. "He gives the kids free samples, because he knows full well, that today's young innocent faces, will be tomorrow's clientele." Tom Lehrer, "The Old Dope Peddler" -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 3 23:34:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: Message-ID: <34AF1F60.B2DB4039@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > > source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > > You mean they haven't? I'm sure I downloaded some CP/M source code from > the 'Unofficial CP/M web site' a couple of months back. AFAIK, while this > was the 'Unofficial' site, Caldera know about it and approve > > This source may well be incomplete, but I believe the explanation that > the missing bits have been lost and will be made available if they are found. > > > have some results on-topic for this mailing list. The URL? (I'd do a search, but I've got the OpenDOS source downloading just this minute, and this modem isn't that fast). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Jan 4 00:46:12 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: [Long] Tandy Trivia, Pin 18, and a Fest! In-Reply-To: <34AF1A53.5DA4A4AE@cnct.com> References: <01bd18b3$1a2b4d60$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104004612.00a4c330@mail.northernway.net> First, I'd like to mention that every year in Elgin, Illinois, USA (near Chicago) there is still a CoCoFest being held!!! Here's some info requested from Mike Knudsen (e-mail: mknudsen@lucent.com (I'm pretty sure this is it -- he just changed.)) about the fest: ------------------ We at Glenside Coco Club really want to hear from you on five different aspects: 1. Who's coming to the Fest on April 18/19 at Elgin, IL 2. Who's coming to our CocoFeast/Banquet/Family Dinner. This is really important. So far we count 24 fer-sures, or up to 31 with "maybes" added in. We need close to 50. The dinner is a "go" at this time, but please help our confidence here. And advise us re #5 below. 3. VENDORS! Who wants to commit verbally to taking a table, or half of one? Not only do we need your fee, but we need to reassure our guests that there will be some stuff to see and buy! 4. SPEAKERS! Who'd like to give a one-hour talk? Any Coco-related subject you like -- history, or a chance to plug your own product, be as infomercial as you like. Also how about a Keynote Speaker? Volunteers? 5. Do you want a Keynote Speaker? At the Dinner? SOme folks prefer *not* to sit thru a speech after dinner, but if we get a speaker he will be exciting to listen to. The Coco Greats are not dull, that's fer sure. ------------------ He's an officer in the GCCC (Glenside Color Computer Club) -- methinks the prez, but I'm not sure. He's one of main folks behind the shindig. Anyway, if yer interested, contact him when he gets back from vacation, which should be around January 8, 98. (yea, so this mail msg. isn't Y2K compliant -- what're ya gonna do about it, eh punk???? ;^> ) Oh, please tell him "Merch" sent ya -- I'd like to see if I generated any extra attendance with this msg. Thanks! ================== Tandy trivia: Tandy's numbering scheme was rather strange, as the CoCo I used the Roman numeral form, the CoCo2 & 3 used Arabic. However, standard Tandy nomenclature for the Models series was: Model I, Model II, Model III, but just as IV would have shortened the end, they changed to Arabic there with the 4. That's the way I've always seen it, tho. Any other thoughts? =================== On the printer thingy -- IIRC the pin that needs to be changed on a standard Centronics to an IBM (does that stand for Idiot Blows Money??? ;-) cable is Pin 18 -- tho I cannot remember what to do with it. However, do this: Go to DejaNews's web site (http://www.dejanews.com/) and search the newsgroup comp.sys.tandy for "printer" and "pin 18" and see what comes up -- they recently had a discussion here about that very topic. =================== Anyway, I hope anyone interested in CoCo's has a chance to attend the Fest (I'll see you there - it'll be my First!!! :-) and I hope this information helps anyone out there with printer woes. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jan 4 00:18:26 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 References: <199801020802.AAA13914@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34AF29B3.4312@goldrush.com> >From: "Cliff Gregory" >Subject: CBM 8032 >Anyone have a source for manuals/software for a CBM 8032 /8050 floppy >drive? >Cliff Gregory >cgregory@lrbcg.com First try might be the PET archives at: http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/ After that I can offer you this: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/petfaq.html http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/diskbasics.html http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/loadingbasics.html Lastly check out the Commodore information on Jim Brain's Commodore site (Caboom), which includes a PET www message SIG: http://www.jbrain.com/caboom/ ================================ Once you find software on-line - One of the real bummers is that the 8032 does not have an RS-232 port for easy communication (read: file transfer via null-modem) nor is the 8050 drive compatible with any other Commodore disk drive (like the 4040/2031 is compatible with the 1541 thus making it easy to get software to a 4040 by doing a null-modem to a 64 and writing with a 1541). Though I am not saying it is impossible; the PET does have a parallel user port which is VERY easy to program. With a bit of coding knowledge a few parts and soldering you could whip up a PET-to-Whatever connector and the appropriate software for transferring files. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From pvhp at forte.com Sun Jan 4 03:17:06 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <9801040917.AA02924@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: UNIX questions? Tony Duell wrote: >Ob classic-computer-OS. I agree with some other messages on this list - a >Linux/minix port to the PDP11 would be very nice. The PDP11 is just about >unique in that it's a popular classic computer with _no_ freely >distributable OS (in fact, unless you have the license transferred, you >can't even legally run what it was running before you got it). Now that >CP/M is jsut about free for home use, as is LDOS (for the TRS-80), OS8, >Linux, Minix (for educational use), etc, it appears that the PDP11 is the >machine that's left out of all this. I am not sure if things were different for the DEC OSes for the PDP-11 but for VMS (VAX & AXP) one can legally run the OS and attendant utilities (DECnet & the DCL shell) with transfer of ownership. To be legal you have to purchase new license PAKs and/or new distributions for any of the layered products which includes all the interesting compilers, DBses etc. BTW to Bruce Lane regarding BSDs: A web page discussing flavors and ports at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/BSD-info/BSD.html seems to be inaccesible at this time. For money you could try Ultrix as in: http://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/DECinfo/.2/SPD/26.40.32.txt - and I thought digital was no longer selling ultrix products (?) Peter Prymmer From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Jan 4 09:40:44 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01bd1927$1efda440$LocalHost@hotze> Yeah, BTW, how old are the RS/6K's? -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 04, 1998 8:13 AM Subject: Re: UNIX questions? >Olminkhof wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ward Donald Griffiths III >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> Date: Sunday, 4 January 1998 11:46 >> Subject: Re: UNIX questions? >> >> >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the >> >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely >> >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. >>Ward Griffiths >> >> They already HAVE released the source code for OpenDOS. While it is far >> beyond me to do anything with it, I found it very well commented and >> interesting. I was amazed at the number of "fixes" for specific hardware. > >You're right -- they _have_. It wasn't there a couple of weeks ago >when I was printing out all of the manuals (which are the best that >I've ever seen outside of the Linux Documentation Project -- they make >the manuals that used to come with MS-DOS look like crap). Well, that >takes care of my lunch hour Monday while I dump it from the T-1 to a >Zip disk. Have to remember to grab a sandwich at Blimpy's at Newark >Penn Station in the morning. > >Yes, I know a Zip disk has a lot more space than will be needed -- but >for some reason I've taken to isolating my archives to avoid confusion. >All of my material from Tim Mann's TRS-80 site is on one, all of my >AT&T Unix PC material is on another, and so on for the Color Computer, >the ST, the Mod 100 etc. Eventually, I'll wind up burning a couple of >CDs -- since somebody was kind enough to find an excuse for one at work. >Pity that it's attached to an NT box, since I'd prefer to use proper >Unix filenames -- but maybe I can sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Htalk my boss into >letting me hook it up to one of my RS/6000s for a couple of hours. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 4 11:20:58 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980104112058.00b89d70@pc> John Higginbotham wrote: >Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software >cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's >computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt >todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be >freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase >productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm >are they? So let me get this straight: on one hand, you're saying there's a bunch of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about learning or enjoyment? I think this list proves there is some small level of demand for old stuff... and certainly game makers like Microsoft and Atari have done well by selling relatively inexpensive pre-made collections of either the exact old games or updated emulations. I'm stunned by the amount of software that has been collected and redistributed (largely illegally) for the very good software-based emulators for old computers. Many of these emulators have become commercial products, again proving there's a bit of profit left in old software. On the other hand, I agree with some of your sentiment - it would be nice if there was a more formalized, established and accepted method that antique computer collectors could secure the rights to redistribute software that the owners have in fact abandoned. For example, I've tried to track down the rights to the Terak computer, as described on my web page. Terak was sold to CalComp, then a Sanders company, which was later assimilated by Lockheed-Martin. Try to wind your way through that bureaucracy to find the long-time employee who *might* be able to track down those assets - if you could convince them of the good intent of your interest, and that they should take time out of their day to help you. Similarly, I tried to clarify the rights to UCSD Pascal's p-code system. The UCSD licensing agency has stated that the license is non-exclusive, but in reality they have only one licensee, Cabot Systems in the UK, who are actively trying to sell the P-System as an alternative to Java for set-top boxes and embedded applications. Ken Bowles, author of a well-known early book on Pascal and one of the original designers of the P-System, believes that at least the early versions should be public domain because they were developed by the university with government funds, or something like that. You can see the problem: as soon as you *ask* about the obscure software and claim there's hundreds of people interested in using it, someone sees dollar signs and doesn't want to simply give it away. Non-profit collectors feel they're a "good cause" and that they'd take really good care of the stuff, but there are collectors and publishers out there who do seek to make a profit. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Jan 4 14:14:40 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Software Piracy [again] and In-Reply-To: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> ;-) John Higginbotham head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Sure, I have no problem with recent software protection, but in this case, >the game isn't even being sold in it's original form anymore, running on >computers that aren't made anymore. Maybe if software companies would take >these old titles and put them up on the internet, maybe take online orders >for them and charge a very low cost for the games, maybe around $1.00, >people might just buy them instead of making "illegal" copies of them. But >they don't. One does sell outdated software for (well, usually) a smaller than normal fee. Tandy. They still sell software that runs on the original CoCo1 like Mega-bug and the like on cassette and disk for as low as $2.50 or so. They still have a small amount of cartridge software for sale! Now here's a stupid question: Where's that $2.50 or so go? Well, Tandy really doesn't make a profit on that. It helps pay the wages for the people who do the cassette/disk copy // PROM burn, and the rest? Tandy still sends checks (albeit small ones) to the authors of this 15-year-old software when it's sold. If you don't believe me, just hop onto news://bit.listserve.coco and ask Steve Bjork. He wrote many programs for Tandy, including Arkanoid for the CoCo2 and 3, I think Mega-Bug, and many others that are still for sale all over the country. When you pirate that software, you are stealing directly from a person that I have conversed with many times in the listserve, and will be meeting face-to-face in April. My advice: Most of the original authors (of Tandy software, at least) seem to be on or around the Internet -- try finding them and see if they will give permission to change the licensing of their software to shareware / freeware. Chris Burke of Burke & Burke (they made software, hardware interfaces, RAM upgrades and whatnot for the CoCo2/3) 4 or 5 months ago changed the licensing to all of his software to inexpensive shareware, and released the source code to several programs... because someone actually had the initiative to track him down, and ask him. He had no idea folks still wanted the stuff! > Most companies don't even offer support for software that old. >I've had that happen numerous times when I'd try to contact a company to get >a replacement disk for one that went bad. No dice. Some of the people >answering the phone didn't even know they had published the game. My advice: Be persistant -- and know the law. No matter what the EULA states, you can: Make backup copies _for yourself_ of any software that you own -- from any source. If a ROM went bad in your Tandy 200, I can legally burn you a copy of from a good ROM in my 200 and send it to you -- provided you can prove you still own it. (either by shipping me the device, or a friend of mine asked his lawyer about this, and a picture of you with your 200 would absolve me of any wrongdoing - aka proof. If it wasn't your 200, that wouldn't be my fault.) If you can find someone else with a copy of that software, you can legally copy it provided you still own the software you're copying. Make more than one copy for yourself for more than one computer you may own -- provided that you do not use more than one copy of that program *at the same time*. I can copy my OS-9 disks for my multiple CoCos without problem -- until I boot OS-9 on *more than one* CoCo at the same time if I only have one legal license for the software. As long as I shut down OS-9 on one system before booting the next, it's legal. (This is how it was explained to me by a person who spoke with his lawyer on this matter -- please accept this with a grain or two of salt.) Oh, there is still some professional CoCo3 devlopment going on -- there are 2 new games here, with a 3rd on the way. Want info on one of the proggies? http://people.delphi.com/medialink/ For Digger II: Return of the Saint (and Guido's World Coming Soon). There's also a Pac-Man clone out that is supposed to look, feel and smell like the original arcade game, tho I don't have a URL handy. Anyway, I hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 4 08:25:47 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Software Piracy [again] and In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> References: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <199801041919.OAA29695@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Roger! The terrific discussion of legealese stuff and s/w ownship, I'm now starting to buy s/w now that I know why and I have now resisted more and more to copying requests, telling them to buy theirs or buy used s/w. Good info you have there. > [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I > saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons > -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I > still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] Hee hee, would startle me to see scribbles on face of the monitors because wasn't used to seeing like that. :) Why not take the tube out (Gently!) to free that anti-glare mesh and clean up everything with strong cleaning alcohol? It will dissolve the wax. What's DVI? Jaosn D. > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 4 13:57:10 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: CoCo Software (was Re: Software Piracy [again] and ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> References: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: >One does sell outdated software for (well, usually) a smaller than normal >fee. Tandy. They still sell software that runs on the original CoCo1 like >Mega-bug and the like on cassette and disk for as low as $2.50 or so. They >still have a small amount of cartridge software for sale! Here is a stupid CoCo question, how does one go about buying this software from them? I'm assuming the typical Tandy Sales drone will go, "Huh, nope, we don't have any such product" (note this is just an assumption on my part, I've been dealing with to many idiot computer salespeople lately). So far all my hunting for Tandy stuff has resulted in a CoCo, a CoCo2 and a grand total of two cartridges (found separate from the computers). I do have a cassette deck and cable, but only because I bought them new for use with my WP-2 a few years back when Tandy discontinued them. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From pjoules at enterprise.net Sun Jan 4 13:52:58 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems References: <199801032217.AA24234@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34AFE89A.55D44541@enterprise.net> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I have the 11/23 or 11/73 to pick from (with 30meg of disk). > I have a pdp11 C compiler (decus C) running under RT-11. > I can copy elks sources to the 11 > > ELKS is only an embedded kernel. Oops. > If you download the latest elks kernel source - 0.0.67 at the moment but 0.0.68 is due out anytime, along with elkscmd.tar.gz you will have an almost complete Linux subset for the 8086 with which you can then work. The acronym ELKS is 'Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset' but the project is, at present, to develop a workable linus for the 8086/8 processors capable of running on a minimum of a twin 360k floppy system with 512k. Regards Pete From bcw at u.washington.edu Sun Jan 4 14:58:10 1998 From: bcw at u.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Laser 128 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One slight problem, the keyboard makes no sense, when I hit a key, > something else comes up. Is this because I don't have their version of the > OS, or is there a problem with the computer, or what? Any ideas? I've found this generally occurs when the ribbon cable connecting the keyboard to the motherboard is slightly loose/misaligned. The cable connects right under the keyboard, which lifts up when you take the case off. ------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw@u.washington.edu (mail may come from alternate addresses) Classic Computers List Operator/Owner http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Jan 4 16:02:58 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: DVI, IDE, and general CoCo madness In-Reply-To: <199801041919.OAA29695@mail.cgocable.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104160258.00abf690@mail.northernway.net> ;-) jpero@cgo.wave.ca head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Good info you have there. Thanks -- I've lurked thru a lot of piracy flame wars on other newsgroups and listservers and learned a lot -- once I dug thru the egos and low blows many of these folks resort to to get their point across. >> [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I >> saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons >> -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I >> still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] > >Hee hee, would startle me to see scribbles on face of the monitors >because wasn't used to seeing like that. :) Why not take the tube >out (Gently!) to free that anti-glare mesh and clean up everything >with strong cleaning alcohol? It will dissolve the wax. What's DVI? First: The DVI stands for a Disk-Video interface for a Tandy non-MS-DOS laptop (you know - the good ones! :-) which enables you to use up to 2 40track SSDD floppies storing 184K and the use of a monochrome 80x25 monitor w/VT-100 compatibility. (Don't remember for sure on the VT-100 -- if not, I do know that it's VT-52 compatible because the built-in LCD's are mostly VT-52 compatible already.) Second: having been a candlemaker for the last 7 years experience tells me that most alcohols (including ethanol, methanol, and isopropyl) don't dissolve wax very well. The only thing I've found to dissolve wax easily is called Naptha -- one of the main components of dry-cleaning fluid & lighter fluid (you know, for the Zippos) and can be had at your local hardware store -- I paid $2.99 for a quart I believe. Also, I've found Amway's LOC (stands for Liquid Organic Cleaner) cleans up crayons better than most cleaners, tho it's still not a complete solution for crayons & candles. The only reason the Apple /// monitor isn't back in tip-top shape yet, is that I don't have a bootable disk or cable for my DVI to hook to my Tandy 200 -- so at present it's not usable (Tho I still use my 200 all the time!). When I complete my docking station setup for my laptop, I'll put some time into the monitor and get 'er working good again. Oh, and what have I been doing today? I've just refurbished a keyboard on an old CoCo 1 that I bought at an auction several years ago and haven't had a chance to get to -- looked like cheese sauce was blurped onto the keyboard (blech). Also upgraded it from 4K (original) to 64K (yes, both memory pages work -- the original CoCo1's could only handle 32K without a few extra wires added.) Reseated all the chips, burned an Extended ROM and am getting ready to set it up in my bedroom and hook up my Plug-n-Power controller to it so I can control a lot of stuff around the house (better & cheaper than IBM's solution!). Oh, I took pictures during the disassembly and will be scanning them in and writing an article on CoCo keyboard remanufacture which hopefully will be posted in 3 areas: my web page, a CoCo/MM1 magazine called _the world of 68' micros_ that Frank Swygert at Farna Systems publishes, and also in the GCCC (that's Glenside Color Computer Club -- they're still active!) newsletter. Oh, and if anyone's interested in an IDE interface for their CoCo, I'd get a hold of Carl Boll () real quick -- they have the prototype working well now and are ready to finalize the OS-9 drivers & whatnot - then they're ordering the boards made. There will only be one run of boards, so once they're gone, they're gone. Looks like 125 or so will be made, but if you contact him soon (and there'll be a $15 deposit per board) he'll add you in before time runs out. Well, there's been too many "Oh,"'s already, so I'll end this message before it becomes a novel. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 4 16:55:13 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980104174915.006904ac@netpath.net> At 11:20 AM 1/4/98 -0600, you wrote: >of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think >the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because >there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about >learning or enjoyment? If you can find any message where I said that, I'd be happy to argue against it, but I don't think I would type that in so many words. Software companies SHOULD be able to sell these old games, but they can never expect to get the original price out of them. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:04:28 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801042330.PAA18513@mx3.u.washington.edu> > >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out > >again. > > I played a demo of the new Frogger on my Playstation, it's NOTHING like the > original! Give me the original any day, it was all on the screen at one > time! > > Zane I don't mean that the new one is better, just that it doesn't seem to have died. I loved the original one, too (on an Atari 400, as I recall.) manney From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:09:42 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 DMP 100 Printer info n Message-ID: <199801042330.PAA22568@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > One of the problems with using a RS printer on a PC is that the RS units > all (most?) add a linefeed in the printer firmware. If you do not know > the escape sequence to disable it everything comes out doublespaced. And > not all of their escape sequences were the same. > - don I've never had a problem with that...they usually print the info on the back. My problem is the the early DMP dot matrix series (before 134, I think) will not respond to many PC parallel ports. I've heard that Radio Schlock has a cable to fix that, but they said no. Anyway, these early DMP's respond to most modern motherboards. Don't know why. manney From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:24:27 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801042331.PAA26572@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Which I use depends on the job I want to > do, how I want to do it, etc. Nobody restricts you to only having one > computer. Wives? From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 14:29:54 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801042331.PAA03850@mx5.u.washington.edu> > >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out > >again. > > Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old copy > of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the internet > or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version? Well, I meant...Frogger is an axample of why "they" don't just throw game concepts out the window. Frogger seems to have been resurrected. You're right -- the new one is different, and most young users would prefer the new version (I LIKED the old one, though! Anyone have Frogger for the PC for sale?) From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 4 19:01:49 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <199801042331.PAA26572@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > Which I use depends on the job I want to > > do, how I want to do it, etc. Nobody restricts you to only having one > > computer. > > Wives? > No no no. My wife, who is not at all into computers (still seems to pick up stuff fast and I don't have to tell her how to do something more than once usually), LOVES my hobby of collecting computers. She realizes and has said that my hobby is what makes me so employable so she knows we and our children (when we have them) will never go hungry. It also allowed us to buy our home, the finished basement of which has been allocated (at her suggestion) to my computer hobby. This way I don't have junk all over the house, I have an area where I can set things up and be assured she won't go around switching things off or moving them and guarantees that I'll be at home instead of out galavanting about at bars or sports games like other husbands. Plus, she knows I won't give her a hard time about collecting Barbies, books and pets...because she's so understanding about my hobby. On the other hand, all my girlfriends up to meeting my wife HATED my computers (in my apartment so I don't know what business it was of theirs anyway), hated me spending time on them and thought they were useless junk. My wife saw my computers and saw stability (aside from loving me and me loving her and all the things that make a good marriage possible), someone who wouldn't cheat on her or beat her (not that she'd ever experienced that mind you but smart women don't pick certain kinds of guys) and someone who, if he lost his job, wouldn't be happy lying around the house (IE would look for a job) and would be able to find SOME job under almost any economic circumstances. I really don't understand the wife hating the computers routine. You'd think, like my wife, they'd understand that a computer hobby can be a great contribution to the stability of the family, the employability of the husband and the education of any children. (Not to say, mind you, that my wife isn't gainfully employed. She's had the same job for 13 years, is a supervisor and has complete seniority. She enjoys working and we couldn't get by without her income but she knows, if the chips were down and she lost her job, I could get a job [if forced to do so because I like my current job even if it isn't the highest pay in the world] that would earn enough for both of us to live on. On the other hand, there's nothing I'd love more than cleaning out some hams basement of old computers and having the wife standing at the top of the stairs saying, "Honey, why don't you give him that old Altair that's been collecting dust for 20 years. If you do, I'll make that special pot roast for you." etc etc. =-D Hasn't happened yet but it was how I laid my hands on gobs of Xerox 820 parts and the crusty Northstar chassis. The husband hates it of course but it makes me wish more wives were involved in their husbands' businesses. "Honey, why don't you clean out that back room and give this young man all those old computers for free so you can have a new office with a pool table?" ;-D Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From Zeus334 at aol.com Sun Jan 4 18:05:22 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <40c749f8.34b023c5@aol.com> Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours: Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!) Why dogs lick their balls Atheism What makes a good marriage Copyrights Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program for something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 4 18:17:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801050017.AA17495@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, John Rollins wrote: > You might want to try comp.sys.apollo, This is mostly where I've been focusing my efforts already. /: The web pages I've found so far are not selling parts. ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sun Jan 4 18:37:12 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: operating systems (frogger...) In-Reply-To: <199801042331.PAA03850@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > > >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it > out > > >again. > > > > Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old > copy > > of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the > internet > > or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version? > > Well, I meant...Frogger is an axample of why "they" don't just throw game > concepts out the window. Frogger seems to have been resurrected. You're > right -- the new one is different, and most young users would prefer the > new version (I LIKED the old one, though! Anyone have Frogger for the PC > for sale?) > > You know, I probably have 20 different versions of Frogger... for the TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, Vic, CoCo, and on and on... anyway, I _don't_ have an original 'licensed' version for the PC. Many, many remakes for the PC and every other computer in the world, but not a Sega licensed version. Could someone let me know when it was released and if they really do have a copy for sale? I'd really like to get the 'original PC version'! Thanks, CORD COSLOR From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 4 18:37:58 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <40c749f8.34b023c5@aol.com> Message-ID: >Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours: >Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!) >Why dogs lick their balls >Atheism >What makes a good marriage >Copyrights > >Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program for >something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff >displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice http://www.newdealinc.com/ Unfortunatly with their newest version it looks like they've changed the name, and dropped support of 8086/88 processors :^( This is the updated version of Geoworks. If you contact them, they might have copies of the previous version still that will run on the PC XT. I've not tried this, I just bookmarked it because I like software that gives old computers new lives. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 4 18:43:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Laser 128 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> One slight problem, the keyboard makes no sense, when I hit a key, >> something else comes up. Is this because I don't have their version of the >> OS, or is there a problem with the computer, or what? Any ideas? > >I've found this generally occurs when the ribbon cable connecting >the keyboard to the motherboard is slightly loose/misaligned. The >cable connects right under the keyboard, which lifts up when you >take the case off. I'm embarrased to say that it was a switch on the back of the computer that needed to be flipped. One of the other list members pointed this out, as well as letting me know why I wasn't getting 80 columns on my IIc. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Jan 4 20:09:54 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: FS: Coleco Adam, Franklin Ace, Lanier somethingorother Message-ID: <199801050209.VAA11275@webern.cs.unc.edu> Saw these things in a second-hand store in Las Vegas the other day: Coleco Adam Franklin Ace 1200 Lanier (it had two 5.25" floppy drives, two LEDs, and two rocker switches on its front panel) CoCo 2 Although I was awfully tempted, I ended up deciding they wouldn't fit in my luggage, so they are probably still there, at the "Faith Lutheran" thrift store, at 707 N. Rancho. Let the race begin! Bill. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 4 22:56:17 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Wives? In-Reply-To: <199801042331.PAA26572@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980104225617.4917ab5c@intellistar.net> At 03:24 PM 1/4/98 -0500, you wrote: > Which I use depends on the job I want to >> do, how I want to do it, etc. Nobody restricts you to only having one >> computer. > >Wives? > > OK to have more than one of those too, just not at the same time! From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 4 21:29:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Wives? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980104222624.006c5b6c@netpath.net> At 10:56 PM 1/4/98, you wrote: >>Wives? > > OK to have more than one of those too, just not at the same time! Unless you live in Utah... -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 4 21:42:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <199801050342.AA27479@world.std.com> The idea of using linux as a free OS on aging 386 boxen or as a platform for getting a unix running on older classic platforms has merit. There is one little bug... I've never seen a running linux box nor have I been successful in getting one going. After loading 75 floppies becuase the CDrom I have is not supported I'm more than annoyed and have not found a resource to assist beyond suggesting I'd be better off running microspooge. The latter is insulting and demeaning. On the other hand if someone can prove that working slakware v3.0 really exists I can be swayed. Allison From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 4 23:22:49 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050342.AA27479@world.std.com> Message-ID: Allison (and everyone else reading), I struggled with my first Linux installs in 1994. There were no manuals nor any people to help me. I had to get a system up and running to get into business as an ISP so expediency was more important than optimum configuration. I came up with the following recommendations to get a system up quickly and without hassle: 1. 386 or 486 box with AMI (American Megatrends) BIOS. I've had some luck with Phoenix and other BIOS's over the years but I've found AMI to be the most consistent in terms of getting a box operational. 2. RAM is relatively unimportant BUT if you do not have more than 4 megs you will need to go through a procedure to turn on your swap space BEFORE running the install or it will crash and die. mkswap /dev/hdaX Y where X is swap partition number as shown in fdisk and Y is the size of X in blocks swapon /dev/hdaX 3. Do NOT try doing the Linux running out of an MS-DOS directory on your first install. I've NEVER done this nor do I suspect it's that pleasant plus it makes me feel stupid to run Linux out of DOS. :-/ Get a drive, partition using LINUX FDISK (NOT DOS FDISK) and use it all for Linux. 4. Use IDE hard drives until you know enough about doing installs. Then you can use SCSI more effectively. 5. If your BIOS can deal with the drive, Linux can too...with CERTAIN exceptions...on some BIOSs you're given the choice of using Normal, Large or LBA for block addressing. Sometimes you have to try different settings to get a Linux install to go. Linux may complain if it thinks the drive has more than 1024 cylinders but the complaint can, essentially, be ignored these days. This is experience speaking. 6. Be prepared to turn off caches...internal and external in the BIOS. Sometimes, especially on newer kernels like Slackware 3.0, you can't get the boot floppy to go because it'll crash out and give you stack dump type information. Try turning off first the external cache and then the internal cache if that doesn't work. Not all caches are created equal. 7. Create TWO partitions with fdisk...the sequence looks like this... do a 'p' to print out the partition list do 'd's to delete all existing partitions do 'n' to create new partition then 'p' to make it primary then '1' to make it the first primary partition, set the starting block at 0 or 1 and the ending block a couple hundred blocks from the last block do 'n' to create another new partition then 'p' to make it primary then '2' to make it the secondary primarty partitition, set the starting block to the next block from the last block of the first partition and the last block to the last block available then do a 't' and select '2' for the partition number and '82' for the type...you can do an 'l' to get a list of types...you want to set it to Linux swap...Linux filesystem or whatever is the default. Partition 1 should be left at the default type and partition 2 should be Linux Swap. Do another 'p' to make sure it looks cool. It may complain about the drive if it has more than 1024 cylinders. Ignore it. Do a 'w' to save the changes, power down and power up with the floppy and do your install. 8. If it's formatting the partitions and freaks out complaining that it can't write inodes or superblocks and gives you a long list of these complaints...and you have a drive over 2 gigs in size try creating 3 partitions...the first two of equal size totalling most of the drive and the last being your swap. Or try a different block addressibility type in the BIOS. 9. There are usually different boot disk types...IDE only, IDE/SCSI, SCSI only. Make sure you use the IDE only. It's the easiest. 10. If you want to install off cdrom and the install won't recognize the drive...wait for the boot prompt when you boot up and type install hdX=cdrom where X is a,b,c or d which correspond to what you're used to as Drive C:, D:, E: or F: If it's an IDE-ATAPI type CD-ROM, it should work. Finally, if someone REALLY REALLY wants to load Linux on a system and is willing to follow my instructions, be patient with me, realize that I have a family to support and will send me some trinket in return (S-100 cards, Shugart SA-400 drives, etc all work) AND are willing to call ME long-distance I can probably help you out. Email is probably easier. The main problem with Linux isn't with Linux...it's with the umpteen zillion cheapo motherboards, peripheral cards and hard drives manufactured for intel-oriented PCs. I've loaded Linux at least a 100 times since 1994 but I do it a pretty low-tech way. Alot of times I'll just load Slackware 2.0 if I don't care about X much. Alot of times I'll just load up Caldera because it's easy. The only way I've NEVER done it is on an MS-DOS drive out of a dos directory. I won't even attempt that. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > There is one little bug... I've never seen a running linux box nor > have I been successful in getting one going. After loading 75 floppies > becuase the CDrom I have is not supported I'm more than annoyed and > have not found a resource to assist beyond suggesting I'd be better > off running microspooge. The latter is insulting and demeaning. On > the other hand if someone can prove that working slakware v3.0 really > exists I can be swayed. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 4 22:39:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> <1. 386 or 486 box with AMI (American Megatrends) BIOS. I've had some Exactly a AMI 386 is what I have. <2. RAM is relatively unimportant BUT if you do not have more than 4 me Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: Try FreeBSD. It's much more professionally oriented, and more stable. No "kernel of the week" problems. I run both but vastly prefer FreeBSD. It's rock-solid and high performance. I suggest 2.2.5, the latest release. Kevin At 10:42 PM 98/01/04 -0500, you wrote: > >The idea of using linux as a free OS on aging 386 boxen or as a platform >for getting a unix running on older classic platforms has merit. > >There is one little bug... I've never seen a running linux box nor >have I been successful in getting one going. After loading 75 floppies >becuase the CDrom I have is not supported I'm more than annoyed and >have not found a resource to assist beyond suggesting I'd be better >off running microspooge. The latter is insulting and demeaning. On >the other hand if someone can prove that working slakware v3.0 really >exists I can be swayed. > > >Allison > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 00:08:31 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> Message-ID: > <6. Be prepared to turn off caches...internal and external in the BIOS. > > I'm not getting stackdumps. I'm getting all mannor of boot errors > related to the filesystem mountability or RW/RO status. > > Not a problem I get fully through the setup. > Ok, at some point it wants to do a LILO install...LILO is the boot loader. Where are you having it put the boot loader? Even though it's a pain if you ever want to reformat the drive for MS-DOS, I usually put the boot loader in the MBR (Master Boot Record). But this would cause it not to boot at all...not to fail when it tries to moutn the drive. What it will do is see the drive as a piece of hardware, then it will mount it read only and do an fsck (file system check), then it will mount it read write. You'll see the following messages or something like them interspersed with other messages: date something kernel: hda: Manufacturer, Size & Cache, CHS=cyl/heads/sectors, MaxMult=something then date something kernel: partition check: date something kernel: hda: hda1 hda2 date something kernel: VFS: mounted root (ext2 filesystem) readonly. date something kernel: Adding Swap: 16000K swap-space (maybe a diff number) and then some other messages talking about fsck etc etc... and then it'll finally mount it read-write... Can you tell me exactly what the error messages are? I know it's a pain because it scrolls by kinda quick but I need to know exactly what it's saying to give you a good idea what's going on and why. One thing I could do...I'd have to clean some personal stuff off it...is send you a little 40 meg drive that has Slackware 2.0 on it that I really don't use much anymore. If it'll boot that then it's not your hardware...it's either the formatting of the hard drive or the drive itself. Sometimes just because they'll do MS-DOS ok doesn't mean they'll do linux ok. It's rare but it happens. Send me a private email if you want to do this. I've left this public because I thought it might be of use to others. Yeah yeah I know it's linux not cp/m blah blah blah. Except that one of the coolest things to do with Linux is to run emulators for other machines. I've got a whole bunch on my website at http://www.retrocomputing.com/software.html. And I'm working on getting Douglas Jones' PDP-8 emulator to work so that'll work on Linux soon too. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 00:13:22 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: > Try FreeBSD. It's much more professionally oriented, and more stable. No > "kernel of the week" problems. I run both but vastly prefer FreeBSD. It's > rock-solid and high performance. I suggest 2.2.5, the latest release. Hey! Give me a chance to see if I can help him get Linux going first. His problem has to be some little teeny dumb thing that, once fixed, will seem silly. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 00:18:07 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: For sale or trade: Old PC Memory Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Got an old AT that needs some additional RAM? Have I got the thing for you: 1 BocaRam AT with 128k but only partially populated 6 Intel AT boards each populated with 2 megs of dip RAM These are as-is untested. I'll sell them for a few bucks plus shipping or trade them for fun hardware like Apple peripheral cards, S-100 boards of ANY kind, Shugart floppy drives 5 1/4" or 8", 6800 series chips (6800, 6810, 6820, etc) or anything you think might interest me. Look at http://www.retrocomputing.com to see the kinds of things that interest me. Ooo wait. Are posts like this permitted? I hope so. If not, I'll never do it again. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 4 19:15:40 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801050609.BAA20160@mail.cgocable.net> > <1. 386 or 486 box with AMI (American Megatrends) BIOS. I've had some > > Exactly a AMI 386 is what I have. Shrugs, and good to see you do have that 128k cache. What about 387? > <2. RAM is relatively unimportant BUT if you do not have more than 4 me > > 8meg of ram Not bad! snip snip snip! > I'm not getting stackdumps. I'm getting all mannor of boot errors > related to the filesystem mountability or RW/RO status. Looks like something on your hd subsystem not being configured right. Especially jumpers? That is why I demand manuals to go with 'em if the price is expensive on rare or hard to get used parts. My advice: Motherboards, some cards always get the manuals, because usually once in a while caught mistakes there by former users. If not, deal is dead. Snip snip...! > CDrom is not installed, if it were it's a phillips cm205 (unsupported) > and not IDE-atapi. the CDrom is in another box (486powered) and the > floppies were made from there. I think linux supports this one, CM 206? Cheaper to dig up both panasonic 2x with it's controller card or the mitsumi 1x or 2x with controller. I've of both done successfully. Snip! > > Humm sa400? I may have one in the pile fairly unused. Ouch... :) > The problem is nothing works as advertized for a vanilla install. Hee hee... I have always get problems and we always figure out or fix all the problems. Successful on first cut is rare unless one collects all the hardware that met the listed requirements and know the all the dma, i/o and irq addresses with careful planning of all things to prevent conflicts. > This box is as vanilla as they come. > > AMI 386DX/33, 128k cache, 8mb ram, connor 420mb IDE, 3.5" 1.44 floppy, > serial mouse on com1: modem at com2:, DECPA(DE100) NI, TRIDENT 512k > SVGA. Runs dos/win3.1 real well(just to prove the hardware works). The chipset # of this Trident? It's supported btw but not exactly barn-burner frame buffer performance. Tseng ET4k chips also supported but very fast unless X acceleration then you would want one that has ET4k/w32i if you're still on ISA bus. > It's taken a year to scrounge up all the parts to create this system. Wow! Suggest: net queries on individual or some parts in batch will make things go faster and inexpensively. > Allison From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 5 00:22:18 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980104204035.0327d21c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: >PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't >get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" > >Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. Heh, you know my answer for the BSD people, which BSD? Let's see; FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, 386BSD, BSD/OS, BSD Lite, I don't know what else is there. Personally I've got a Hard Drive with OPENSTEP, that's the only BSD system I'm currently running. At least Linux development is pretty much controlled chaos, BSD on the other had seems to be to simply be chaos. Yes, I know that there are quite a few different Linux distributions, but they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. Linux has two types of kernals, production and development. If you want stable use production, if you want "Bleeding Edge" use development. My Linux fileserver has been running for over 15 months with the same software install, without a crash. Seriously the question you need to ask yourself when deciding which to use is if you want a UNIX System V based system, or a BSD 4.3/4.4 based system. If you want SysV go with Linux, if you want BSD then chose your poison, personally I'd recommend FreeBSD for the Intel architecture, OpenBSD for anything else. Realistically the two are basically the same, on the topic of documentation is about the only real difference. You can find a ton of books specific to Linux, as far as I know the only BSD 4.4 specific books are the Berkley docs that Linux printed. I find OpenBSD of intrest because it's purpose is to be multiplatform, however, I think the total USENET traffic for it is less than comp.os.linux.announce I've got to agree with the comment that Linux is great for running emulators. I'm still looking for a PDP-11 of my own, but in the mean time I can play with the PDP-11 emulator under Linux and run stuff like RT-11 or Version 5 UNIX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 5 00:27:01 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: FS: Coleco Adam, Franklin Ace, Lanier somethingorother In-Reply-To: <199801050209.VAA11275@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Saw these things in a second-hand store in Las Vegas the other day: > > Coleco Adam > > Franklin Ace 1200 > > Lanier > (it had two 5.25" floppy drives, two LEDs, and two > rocker switches on its front panel) The Lanier unit is a dedicated word processor based on a Z-80. They came in several flavors - soft sector disks, hard sector disks, and both floppy and hard drive. I do not know if there was ever a CP/M version ported to the machine or not. Lanier is now a part of Harris Corp. and they , like many large companies, were no too helpful in my queries. - don > CoCo 2 > > Although I was awfully tempted, I ended up deciding they wouldn't fit > in my luggage, so they are probably still there, at the "Faith Lutheran" > thrift store, at 707 N. Rancho. > > Let the race begin! > > Bill. > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 06:50:36 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <01bd19d8$851de080$LocalHost@hotze> Well, if anyone wants it I can ship my FreeBSD 2.2.5 CD which I got a part of a misorder. Because I got it for free, I'll charge whatever shipping costs. Actually, I just am finishing installing my first Linux (Unix too!) system on my 200MHz "Demon" (for Linux), but I need to contact the tech support guies because they orginazied the CD so @%^# poorly. It's Debian, and the install was slicker than ANY other OS that I've installed, from billg's DOS 2.0 to Windows 95. Also, I feel like I've got the POWER pre-installed, not something that you need to spend about 5 or 6 months looking for. Plus my Debian package came with browsers, server software (Apache included, along with the Cern servers, NCSA servers, etc.), and almost any X-Window look you can imagine, from the NeXT style to Mac to Win 95. Well, if I ever get to an area of the planet with unlimited access time measured in items smaller than tens of thousands of bucks for a modem, I think that I'll see what I can do. Well, contact me if you want FreeBSD (anyone), Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Linux???? is it real >>PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't >>get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" >> >>Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. > >Heh, you know my answer for the BSD people, which BSD? Let's see; FreeBSD, >OpenBSD, NetBSD, 386BSD, BSD/OS, BSD Lite, I don't know what else is there. >Personally I've got a Hard Drive with OPENSTEP, that's the only BSD system >I'm currently running. At least Linux development is pretty much >controlled chaos, BSD on the other had seems to be to simply be chaos. >Yes, I know that there are quite a few different Linux distributions, but >they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. > >Linux has two types of kernals, production and development. If you want >stable use production, if you want "Bleeding Edge" use development. My >Linux fileserver has been running for over 15 months with the same software >install, without a crash. > >Seriously the question you need to ask yourself when deciding which to use >is if you want a UNIX System V based system, or a BSD 4.3/4.4 based system. >If you want SysV go with Linux, if you want BSD then chose your poison, >personally I'd recommend FreeBSD for the Intel architecture, OpenBSD for >anything else. > >Realistically the two are basically the same, on the topic of documentation >is about the only real difference. You can find a ton of books specific to >Linux, as far as I know the only BSD 4.4 specific books are the Berkley >docs that Linux printed. > >I find OpenBSD of intrest because it's purpose is to be multiplatform, >however, I think the total USENET traffic for it is less than >comp.os.linux.announce > >I've got to agree with the comment that Linux is great for running >emulators. I'm still looking for a PDP-11 of my own, but in the mean time >I can play with the PDP-11 emulator under Linux and run stuff like RT-11 or >Version 5 UNIX. > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > From william at ans.net Mon Jan 5 06:58:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:04 2005 Subject: WTT: MITS Altair 8800 for DEC PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > PS: Notice I haven't WHERE I'm getting the stuff from. I'll just keep > THAT little secret until they're safely in my basement. ;-D OK, but how do I "extract" one from your basement? William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Jan 5 07:14:07 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Big "B", update Message-ID: For the sake of those reader not too thrilled about the current Linux and x86 threads (zzzzz...), I offer the following update... I received a bit mopre information about the units, and either they are all pieces of a single Burroughs machine, or several individual machines. What is not clear is what model they are. I hope to get more information soon. The current owners have the things half buried in surplus junk (probably good stuff, too!), so I may need to prod them along. Does anyone on this list have any sort of data on Burroughs machines? I would like to get some sort of summary on the different models before taking any possible plunges into the "real big iron" world. William Donzelli william@ans.net From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 08:51:30 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Oh my goodness! I was an ORIGINAL LINC!!!! In-Reply-To: <01bd19d8$851de080$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: I got an email from the gentleman. Turns out it wasn't a LINC-8 at all. It was an ORIGINAL LINC in GOOD condition!!!!! About knocked me off my chair reading that. What actually knocked me off my chair, however, was that he intended to keep that. DARNIT! But he said I could have everything else. Hey, beggars can't be choosers. I told him if he changed his mind, I'd have a whole 15' truck there. Maybe his wife will come out and convince him to let it go. Only time will tell. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: I'm wondering if he's not looking for cash for the LINC. I'll explore that with him when I pick up the PDP-8s. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 09:54:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: <199801050439.AA04171@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105095402.4877d994@intellistar.net> At 12:08 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Send me a private email if you want to do this. I've left this public >because I thought it might be of use to others. > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > No! Leave it public. I'm curious about Linux and I'm following this. It's better than the day time soap operas! Joe > From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 08:22:41 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: WTB or Trade: GRiD 1535EXP External 3.5" disk drive Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980105092241.007d29f0@netpath.net> The subject says it all. If anyone has this or any GRiD portable equipment, let me know. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 5 09:43:26 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jan 5 10:27:12 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 11:44:48 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic > computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! I've never had anyone contact me. If they did, I'd ask them if I could buy some of their old computers by the pound. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 5 10:39:05 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: CBM 8032 and other things Message-ID: <9800058840.AA884047610@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Once you find software on-line - One of the real bummers is that the > 8032 does not have an RS-232 port for easy communication (read: file > transfer via null-modem) nor is the 8050 drive compatible with any other > Commodore disk drive (like the 4040/2031 is compatible with the 1541 thus > making it easy to get software to a 4040 by doing a null-modem to a 64 > and writing with a 1541). I thought the 8050 was compatible with the 1571. Am I mistaken? I know it's not compatible with the 8252 (or whatever it's called - the double sided 8050 that's also built into the 8296D) which is silly and v. annoying. > Though I am not saying it is impossible; the PET does have a parallel > user port which is VERY easy to program. With a bit of coding knowledge > a few parts and soldering you could whip up a PET-to-Whatever connector > and the appropriate software for transferring files. Absolutely. I have a couple of amusing tales about this. In 1983-84, a friend, M J Richards, and I (aged 15 and 16 respectively at the time) developed an adventure game for the BBC micro. But we started by typing in all the text on an 8032, followed by compression and encryption. We then wanted to squirt this module across to the Beeb. Alas, MJR's Beeb only had OS version 0.10, which didn't support input on the serial port. Also alas, the 8032SK uses IEEE-488 (GPIB) style connectors for the user port and we didn't have any. In the end, we used the cassette motor output on the PET and the analogue input on the BBC. Data rate was 30 baud as I recall! Later we wanted to produce a full program listing from a disassembler program on the BBC. By then, 8032 had returned to Dad's office, and the only printer we had left was a Teletype ASR33. Alas again! The BBC serial port didn't support 110 baud. PET to the rescue again - I had an old ROM 8K machine. A few wires and a transistor later, I had an interface - PET received data at 4800 baud on one pin of the user port and transmitted it (via the transistor) to the Teletype on another pin. Finally, we wanted to port the software to other machines. Acorn Electron port was easy - it actually runs on the BBC micro if you try hard enough - but Commodore 64 port was more difficult. I cannot remember if I had upgraded my PET to 32K by then - I think probably not - but we somehow got it across the same 4800 baud link and onto tape, whence it was loaded onto a 64. On my list of things to do now is finish the PET port of the game... I'd be interested to hear from anyone who actually played the game - it was licensed to a software house called Alligata who sold it as "Xanadu Cottage" - about 400 copies were sold, I think (BBC model B only). Also, if anyone wants a copy for their BBC B / Electron / C= 64, please get in touch. There are still slight bugs in the tape routines for saved positions, afaik, but otherwise it runs well. Finally, who would like to see / play / beta-test a PET version? And what model(s) of PET do you have? Terms for software distribution will be shareware - if you want to pay for the game, a suitable donation to a charity caring for Hodgkins' Disease (of which MJR later died) is requested. Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 5 10:49:14 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 printer belt PN Message-ID: <9800058840.AA884048151@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Joe wrote: > I don't remember who asked for the part number for the HP 85 printer drive > belt but I finally dug out my service manual and found the numbers. There > are two belts in the printer. One drives the carriage and is PN 1500-0529. > The other drives the paper advance and is PN 1500-0572. If one is bad you > should go ahead and replace both. During the week you can call HP's > automated ordering line at 1-800-227-8164 and order them if they're still > available. Let me know if these are still available and what they cost. If > you can't get them, let me know and I'll open up one of my 85s and measure > the belts and to to match them up with something from Small Parts Inc or > one of the other companies. Thanks, Joe. Someone posted HP part numbers a while back, and my colleague is going to try the HP order line in this country first. Meanwhile, I have extracted the belts from my own HP-85 and measured them - FWIW they are 175T80 and 78T80 (according to the markings on the belts) - 0.080 inch tooth spacing, 78 teeth for the paper feed and 175 teeth for the print head. My colleague says that if he manages to buy some new ones, he will get me a spare set as well... Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 13:24:40 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105132440.52476cf8@intellistar.net> At 07:43 AM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > Zane No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 5 08:48:26 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980105084826.00bd9940@pc> John Higginbotham wrote: >At 11:20 AM 1/4/98 -0600, John Foust wrote: >>of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think >>the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because >>there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about >>learning or enjoyment? > >If you can find any message where I said that, I'd be happy to argue >against it, but I don't think I would type that in so many words. Software >companies SHOULD be able to sell these old games, but they can never expect >to get the original price out of them. It was the text in surrounding by in your January 4 message: > >Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software >cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's >computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt >todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be >freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase >productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm >are they? > I'll restate what you said, as I saw it. One, there are self-appointed software cops - you mean people who defend copyright, even of old software? Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's machines and OSes. Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's software market. Doing what? Four, you say the ten-year-rule "should" apply to games, making them (who sez?) be PD/freeware. Five, that games don't increase productivity and that "collecting" them (pirating them?) doesn't cause harm. And in your reply, you say that even if the developers sell their old games, they shouldn't expect to get the old retail price, so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is still something. My point is that people want to play games as much as use anything else when it comes to old software. They want to recreate their experience of years ago. Emulation and re-creation can be very handy! I'm surprised there aren't non-MS products that streamline the gotcha's out of running DOS, Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.x software under Win95/NT. Or maybe there is and I haven't heard of it. I'd love to get a copy of Brief that wouldn't hog so much CPU in DOS emulation under WinNT. I'm still running my 1986 copy. Is that archaic? Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish there was a better mechanism that authors of extinct software could use to allow new life for their old software. Sort of a national park or conservatory for old software would be nifty. If it resulted in payments back to the registered authors, I bet it could work. You'd need to find volunteers altruistic enough to donate their efforts in order to be able to send other people checks. The checks might be small or non-existent - perhaps the authors understand that the price charged would just fund the charity set up to distribute the software. It would be a strange sort of charity, sort of like the Old Actor's Home, except the charity cases might be Time-Warner or the programmer who was a millionaire at 15 with his Commodore 64 games, who's now pushing 30 and running his own 200+ person company. In terms of effort, the hard part will be tracking down the proper owners of all that old software. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 12:07:05 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980105084826.00bd9940@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980105130705.007db720@netpath.net> At 08:48 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: >Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't >sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's >machines and OSes. Try loading up Buck Rogers and the Planet of Zoom! on a Cyrix 200 and see how well it plays. Same goes for Frogger. :) They run blindingly fast, making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, but most of those only run right on 486s. Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's >software market. Doing what? Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect today's game market at all. It's a whole different ballpark out there these days. >so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is >still something. But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least $10.00 a piece, and you would have to come up with a cheap way to make sure the games ran at original speed on all systems, another few bucks for R&D right there, so you'll probably end up spending $50.00 for a compilation CD with maybe 10 games on it, and nothing else. (Can you say "Roberta Williams Sierra Compilation"?) Why not release the games as shareware, with no set ammount defined? People could pay what the game is worth to them. I think Maxis did that with the original SimCity. >Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish Oh, not at all. I expected alot more flak from people when I started this thread, but was suprised at how well the members of the list are taking it. (so far) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 07:24:11 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199801051818.NAA19362@mail.cgocable.net> Hi all! > >PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't > >get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!" > > Arg...that kinda hurts. :) > >Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them. > Multiple BSD's left me w/ my head spinning....awk! Snip! that's better. > they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. Yes to a point, Redhat uses RPM to assist installation, others (mostly) uses standard slackware installation/setup format. I'm not sure if redhat makes of the s/w from other places other than redhat especially with that installation or loading them onto hd. Good info... snip! > Realistically the two are basically the same, on the topic of documentation > is about the only real difference. You can find a ton of books specific to > Linux, as far as I know the only BSD 4.4 specific books are the Berkley > docs that Linux printed. > > I find OpenBSD of intrest because it's purpose is to be multiplatform, > however, I think the total USENET traffic for it is less than > comp.os.linux.announce > > I've got to agree with the comment that Linux is great for running > emulators. I'm still looking for a PDP-11 of my own, but in the mean time > I can play with the PDP-11 emulator under Linux and run stuff like RT-11 or > Version 5 UNIX. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jan 5 12:22:11 1998 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Classic items up for bid. Message-ID: Just wanted to let you all know I have a few odd and ends up on e-bay right. An old TRS-80 stringy floppy drive, some TRS-80 manuals, etc. Just check for the seller coslor@bobcat.peru.edu for the complete listing of what's up there now. The stringy floppy drive comes with 11 floppy 'wafers' and the auction on that will end tonight! Just wanted to let you all know -- for whateevr it's worth?? :-) CORD ############################################################################## # Cord G. Coslor -- P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE # # (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 # # Classic computer software and hardware collector # # Autograph collector # ############################################################################## #The##/ ___ /#/ ___ /##/ ___ /#/ /##/ /#/_ __/#/ /#/ /#/ _____## #####/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /##/ /##/__/#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /####### ####/ ___ /#/ _ __/##/ /#######/ ___ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ _____/### ###/ /##/ /#/ /#\ \###/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /######### ##/__/##/__/#/_/###\_\#/________/#/__/##/__/#/______/#/_______/#/________/#### ############################################################################## From william at ans.net Mon Jan 5 12:29:06 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: More free paper Message-ID: This time it is an "HM-6100 Pocket Reference Card" from Harris Semiconductor. It is a simple one sheet affair (folded improperly, unfortunately), describing Harris's implementation of the one chip PDP-8. As with other offers, interested parties should give me a reason why they need the thing, and I will shoot it out (postage is basically nothing) to the winner. No "first come first serve" here. Also as with other offers, I can be bribed with some equally small bit of computer paper from the mini and mainframe world. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 11:18:26 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd19fd$efb552a0$LocalHost@hotze> BTW, where is that Linux emulator page? -----Original Message----- From: Wirehead Prime To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:39 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > > >> Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >> computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >> collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > >I've never had anyone contact me. If they did, I'd ask them if I could >buy some of their old computers by the pound. =-) > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 14:34:53 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <01bd19fd$efb552a0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: http://www.retrocomputing.com/software.html It's far from complete yet and needs to be redone significantly. But thar it be. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Hotze wrote: > BTW, where is that Linux emulator page? > -----Original Message----- > From: Wirehead Prime > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:39 PM > Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > > > > > > > >> Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic > >> computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > >> collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > > >I've never had anyone contact me. If they did, I'd ask them if I could > >buy some of their old computers by the pound. =-) > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > > From rws at ais.net Mon Jan 5 15:22:45 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic > computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! Funny you should mention that. Some "Debbie" asked me about advice on junking AT's, specifically for platinum in the hard drives. She said she was sure they were worth more for precious metal content than as a working computer. (I indicated my disagreement.) Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From Zeus334 at aol.com Mon Jan 5 15:51:48 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <25045102.34b155f7@aol.com> > At 08:48 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't > >sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's > >machines and OSes. > > Try loading up Buck Rogers and the Planet of Zoom! on a Cyrix 200 and see > how well it plays. Same goes for Frogger. :) They run blindingly fast, > making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, > but most of those only run right on 486s. There is a PC-based game I got on a shareware CD that came with my Pentium-75 called "Galactic Food Fight". It is blindingly fast as well. It's shareware, so if anyone wants a copy.... > Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's > >software market. Doing what? > > Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to > get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect > today's game market at all. It's a whole different ballpark out there these > days. I'm sorry, but if people say it's ok to pirate old games, even more people than now will start to say, "Well, this game is not that new", and pirate IT. Now, I have nothing against software piracy on a simple basis: either I get the program for free, and the compay loses 50 bucks, or I don't get the program at all, which means that the company is still 50 bucks short. However, my 14.4 modem helps me keep my morals straight :) > >so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is > >still something. > > But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least > $10.00 a piece, and you would have to come up with a cheap way to make sure > the games ran at original speed on all systems, another few bucks for R&D > right there, so you'll probably end up spending $50.00 for a compilation CD > with maybe 10 games on it, and nothing else. (Can you say "Roberta Williams > Sierra Compilation"?) > > Why not release the games as shareware, with no set ammount defined? People > could pay what the game is worth to them. I think Maxis did that with the > original SimCity. How many people do you suppose would buy the original frogger? Even for $5? Even if someone put a rack of frogger diskettes for free out in CompUSA or something, how many would take it? > >Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish > > Oh, not at all. I expected alot more flak from people when I started this > thread, but was suprised at how well the members of the list are taking it. > (so far) > > > - John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 17:46:13 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: guilty of piracy? (Was operating systems) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980105184605.006b5f04@netpath.net> At 04:51 PM 1/5/98 EST, you wrote: >I'm sorry, but if people say it's ok to pirate old games, even more people >than now will start to say, "Well, this game is not that new", and pirate IT. >Now, I have nothing against software piracy on a simple basis: either I get >the program for free, and the compay loses 50 bucks, or I don't get the >program at all, which means that the company is still 50 bucks short. However, >my 14.4 modem helps me keep my morals straight :) I guess we should just take this on a case by case basis. Most home pirates never get caught. The "software cops" always go after the bigtime distributors, people who make the copies and distribute them to others. I don't think it really matters, because people are gonna do what they want to do no matter what (Like me). >How many people do you suppose would buy the original frogger? Even for $5? >Even if someone put a rack of frogger diskettes for free out in CompUSA or >something, how many would take it? I sure as heck would. I never pass up on anything free. I would also pay $5 for the original Frogger if I had an XT or 286 sitting at home. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jan 5 18:24:03 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Source for drive filters Message-ID: <00a101bd1a39$cb1d6040$54987c0a@office1> Just curoius...where does one purchase new filters for DEC RK05 drives? I have three new ones, so I'm not in any immediate need. But, I'd just like to establish a source. Also, since I don't have the maintenance manual yet, what's the hours in service between filter changes? FYI...I contacted Dialight, the manufacturer of the LED replacement lamps for the RK05 drives. The lamps are still manufactured, but they're a "custom" part. Minimum order of each color is 90 at $2.47 each. If anyone is interested, let me know. The sales rep at Dialight is researching the specs on it since she is not familiar with what makes the part custom. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Last week-end, I got an original Atari 2600 brown console, in the original box. Haven't tried it yet... Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 20:35:41 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Altair Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Hi, I just picked up an Altair 8800a. It has a North Star disk drive controller in it. I think it uses a Shugart Sa400 drive. Does anyone know if it uses a hard sectored or soft sectored disk? Where can I find a SA 400? I know they were very common in the old computers. I have access to a lot of old computers (old Tandys, Commodores and other stranger things.) Can anyone tell me which ones migh t have a SA 400 drive? Yes, Yes, I know you're all going to be PO'd that I would use one of those old machines for parts, but I've offered them to people over and over and no one is interested unless I PAY them to take them. Joe From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 4 20:55:55 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <199801060111.RAA05904@mx5.u.washington.edu> > Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours: > Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!) > Why dogs lick their balls > Atheism > What makes a good marriage > Copyrights You forgot pot roasts > > Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program for > something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff > displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice Yes. I have Geoworks with no manual, but a third party "how to" book. E-mail me privately. manney@nwohio.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 5 19:46:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980105132440.52476cf8@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: >At 07:43 AM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! >> >> Zane > > No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he >wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? I wouldn't doubt it. Here is what she had to say, with my original answer, I guess I should have added that I was also trying to save them from individuals like she was talking about. Initially I just thought she was fronting for someone that dealt in classic computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides considering the fact that some of the systems I've got, like the Atari TT030 go for several hundred dollars. >Hi, Zane. > >> >Seems u have a lot of equipment, any surplus that you might give away? I >> >could get a good price for u, if you are interested. >> >> Um, No. It's a hobby, and an attempt to preserve a part of our history >> that is steadily finding it's way into our landfills. > >My local dealer supply old comps or household appliance to iron, alloy >or plastic mills. They melt them down and supply these to manufacturers. > >It's recycling. > >486-and-above systems get refurbished... > >Regards, >Crystal. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:06 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105180940.0e872806@ricochet.net> At 10:45 PM 1/2/98 +0000, you wrote: >> >get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all >> >those boring old black and white movies! 8^) >> >Oh, coloring those b/w shows and movies ruined it because quality and >appearance looked offish to me. The original NTSC b/w is what is >original format designed for TV's in old days and it looked better Just for the record... That was a *joke* about colorizing movies! It should be illegal, punishable by drawing & quarterign. Movies made in b&w (well, good ones, anyway) made use of the b&w; colorizing kills a lot of what the director worked so hard for. Just did't want anyone thinking I actually *liked* colorized movies... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:21 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105180951.0e873e8e@ricochet.net> At 09:51 PM 1/2/98 PST, you wrote: >I am brimming with curiosity about the MPE OS: What is it like? > Frank is probably better off answering this than I, but... MPE is a great OS. Been around since the mid-70's, I believe. The HP3000 series of computers is (I think) somewhat comparable to the DEC PDP series. Two things you simply shouldn't be without on a 3000: Qedit and MPEX. Qedit is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS. Lots of third party support, very popular in the business side of things (accounting depts., etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:30 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this HP 9000/220? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181005.56a754f6@ricochet.net> At 11:52 PM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >some of the configuration tools) that you will be using an HP terminal >that supports block mode, which (approximately) lets the application Different commands from vt100 block mode of course. Most terminal emulators *don't* include HP terminal emulation. (I've got Walker Richer & Quinn's Reflections, so who cares. Though, there was a program back in the late 80's for the Atari ST that featured HP emulation; wish I'd bought a copy then!) >> What is the shell like? > >The MPE command interpreter...well, I can't speak for the MPE/iX CI. >I haven't used it enough. MPE/iX (newer version for the new CPU models) is pretty much the same as good old MPE, but with some of the extensions MPEX thought up tacked on. >Well, you get EDIT/3000, which is a line-oriented editor that is >suitable for use on all manner of terminals, even the printing ones. Actually, EDIT/3000 isn't suitable for much at all. 8^) Much like MS-DOS's EDLIN. >(e.g. Robelle's QEDIT, which lots of 3000 folks swear by). Some of us actually say our daily prayers to the Robelle Gods. Probably my favorite aspect of MPE is file equations. You can define a name and point it to just about anything, adding on a lot of control and options and stuff. For example, you could say: File Fred = Barney07.bed.rock;rec=-80,,f,ascii;disc=10000 which would mean that whenever you referenced fred (or *fred sometimes) the computer would actually use the file Barney07 in the Bed group of the Rock account (the file structure is a little wierd) and it would have an 80-byte, fixed length, ASCII (not binary) record and a limit of 10000 records in the file. You can also point to printers: File laser;dev=141,1,3 which would mean that "laser" would refer to the device on port 141, have an output priority of 1 (very low) and have 3 copies. (Note: I may have my syntax a little fouled up; that's why I use the online help a lot.) You can even reference yourself: File Me=$StdList;rec=-132,,f,ascii;nocctl which means Me is my stdlist (my screen) which has a 132 byte record (fixed-length, ascii) and doesn't use carriage control. Of course, if you're feeling really non-productive, you can do: File Output = $null 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:46 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- >just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix >utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do >something with it. Are you saying that there is no internal hard drive int the IPC? Wierd. Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:12:50 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Visicalc Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181026.0e8740f0@ricochet.net> At 12:05 PM 1/3/98 -0800, Lynn & Mike wrote: >> Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, >> that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. > >Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor [...] >have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. This is *definitely* not the list for this nonsense. (Still, I'll note that if you believe that stuff, you shouldn't believe in computers, let alone use them. If you want to continue this off-list, feel free to drop me a private note.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:13:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were developed? The ones I can think of include: MFM (early 80's?) RLL (late 80's?) SCSI (late 70's?) ESDI (?) IDE any others? Thanks... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 20:13:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wives and hobbies (was: UNIX questions?) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980105181124.0e87584c@ricochet.net> First off, this goes for husbands too, since I'm sure there are women on this list (but I don't pay much attention to irrelevancies like that). At 07:01 PM 1/4/98 -0600, you wrote: >No no no. My wife, who is not at all into computers (still seems to pick >up stuff fast and I don't have to tell her how to do something more than >once usually), LOVES my hobby of collecting computers. [...] >Plus, she knows I won't give her a hard time about collecting Barbies, >books and pets...because she's so understanding about my hobby. Here's a tip: even cheaper than finding an SO with a hobby (I know what Barbies and books can go for!) find a *good*, dedicated teacher. You'll have evenings and weekends all to yourself while he/she does homework, does lesson plans, etc. Of course, there are downsides -- like getting up at 6am to drive her to school to drop off the 12page substitute teacher plans she stayed up all night doing (and to do an hours' worth of work) when she's too sick too go to school. 8^) Of course, if you want understanding *and* free time, find a teacher who collects something. That gets expensive though. (Donald Duck stuff can be even more expensive than Barbies, and there's more of it!) 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 21:25:37 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he > >wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? > computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ > get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems > that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jan 5 20:29:32 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 5, 98 08:13:35 pm Message-ID: <9801060229.AA08867@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980105/56368846/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 15:41:11 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801060237.VAA03555@mail.cgocable.net> Comments... > First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" > ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. > > Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were > developed? The ones I can think of include: > > MFM (early 80's?) > RLL (late 80's?) > SCSI (late 70's?) > ESDI (?) > IDE If you're working at interfacing... MFM and RLL is not a interface, ST506/512 is. This MFM/RLL is format and encoding type. FM was started then leads to MFM way way back around mid 70's I think, RLL was first developed by IBM and started widespread use in mid 80's but not so numerous as MFM was. SASI was around 70's roughly and begeat SCSI in early 80's. ESDI is the answer to dinky, slow MFM for upping the performance and capacity, reliablity and autoconfigure by Maxtor. MFM controllers was made by WD for AT's and later this is later born as IDE chip based on that and I still see this same chip in their WD's drives in current production. WDC42C22A I think. Compaq was first to suggest IDE idea and got WDC and Conner together in around 1985 then Conner started shipping their IDE hd's in around 1986 because I *DO* have that 1987 date on one OLD IDE conner hd. Also CDC / IMPRIMIS used this IDE on several of their 5.25" drives as well about that time. ATAPI is very late introduction to computing world in mid '90's based on IDE. Jaosn D. > > any others? Thanks... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From Zeus334 at aol.com Mon Jan 5 20:38:34 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <980105213834_-1502224976@mrin39.mx> On the subject of scrapping systems, I found too late that an IBM Convertible had gone to the trash. I didn't get to use it, and I only now found the original notepad-address book-etc. program on the IBM ftp site. I once had a computer store in the neighborhood that threw away dozens of machines (empty PC cases, mostly) each day. That moved away :( I often am forced to leave machines where they are, just because I can't have dozens of 386's and 286's in my apartment, but it's a shame. If they were lighter, I would give them to people. Now, I have a relative in NJ who says that his company throws away 486s. So much for affirmative action. One last thing. I keep seeing people mention how they get dozens of CoCos for free, find them in shops for $5, etc. Look, I have never even SEEN a CoCo, and I live in Boston, MA, where I thought there were lots of computers. I would love to run an enhanced CoCo. The worst thing is, back when that computer store was still here, I didn't know what to take. Maybe they were throwing away PDP-11s and Alphas and Crays, I will never know. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 17:55:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801050342.AA27479@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 4, 98 10:42:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1638 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980105/d4f1d076/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 18:03:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 5, 98 00:08:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/136a9912/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 22:51:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105225146.605f65fa@intellistar.net> At 08:12 PM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >>I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM -- >>just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix >>utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do >>something with it. > >Are you saying that there is no internal hard drive int the IPC? You got it! > Wierd. You have to remember, this was built when most PCs were still using audio cassette players for storage. > >Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone >come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great >to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks! yes, it ould be great. I'm sure HP builds one. They build every imagineable interface. Probably not too small though. They use the same philosphy about size that Dr. Frankenstein did when he built his monster! I added the Integral to my website. See it at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/integral.htm" Joe > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 22:08:10 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Visicalc In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181026.0e8740f0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > >> Two thousand yeare since Bethlehem and still we hear the lie, > >> that after years of hopes and fears the best part's when we die. > > > >Yup, that's what I used to think. I felt sorry for all those poor > [...] > >have an open mind, all we can do is try) -- will become His followers. > > This is *definitely* not the list for this nonsense. My grandfather used to say, "You can always find the hypocrites on Sunday morning. They're sittin' in the FRONT row." Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 21:02:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 5, 98 08:13:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/d68f4003/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 23:08:52 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <980105213834_-1502224976@mrin39.mx> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105230852.63cf6d42@intellistar.net> At 09:38 PM 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >On the subject of scrapping systems, I found too late that an IBM Convertible >had gone to the trash. I didn't get to use it, and I only now found the >original notepad-address book-etc. program on the IBM ftp site. I once had a >computer store in the neighborhood that threw away dozens of machines (empty >PC cases, mostly) each day. That moved away :( I often am forced to leave >machines where they are, just because I can't have dozens of 386's and 286's >in my apartment, but it's a shame. If they were lighter, I would give them to >people. Now, I have a relative in NJ who says that his company throws away >486s. So much for affirmative action. One last thing. I keep seeing people >mention how they get dozens of CoCos for free, find them in shops for $5, >etc. Look, I have never even SEEN a CoCo, and I live in Boston, MA, where I >thought there were lots of computers. I would love to run an enhanced CoCo. >The worst thing is, back when that computer store was still here, I didn't >know what to take. Maybe they were throwing away PDP-11s and Alphas and >Crays, I will never know. > I wish I could find PDPs etc. All I find is CoCos, Tandys, RS, Timexs, etc. Send me your address privately and how much you're willing to spent and the next time I find some I'll check with you to see if you want them. There is a trift store here that had PILES of Cocos along with manuals, games, etc. They're in the process of moving and won't reopen till February. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 20:53:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 5, 98 08:12:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1011 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/0441c2d8/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jan 5 20:50:28 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <782f232d.34b19bf7@aol.com> Didnt ESDI come out when the IBM PS/2 announced? In a message dated 98-01-05 21:31:57 EST, you write: << > MFM (early 80's?) Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. > RLL (late 80's?) I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) > SCSI (late 70's?) The first official-type "SCSI specification" was proposed by an ANSI committee in 1984. It was almost backwards-compatible with SASI (Shugart Associates System|Storage Interface) which had been kicking around since 1978 or 1979. > ESDI (?) Mid-80's > IDE aka "ATA", clostely related to the announcement of the IBM AT... which would put it around 1985 or shortly afterwards? This wasn't really a new standard; the IDE bus interface looks exactly like a WD1002 hooked up to a MFM drive! > any others? The SA4000 and SA1000 interfaces date from the late 70's. And let's not forget the granddaddy of them all, SMD! (CDC, 1975 or so?) And SMD's immediate descendant, the MASSBUS... Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) >> From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 16:36:07 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <782f232d.34b19bf7@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801060332.WAA15405@mail.cgocable.net> > Didnt ESDI come out when the IBM PS/2 announced? > > SUPERDAVE, IBM didn't do it, ESDI came out first by Maxtor at least 4 years before IBM used it in their PS/2 70 servers. If there was prior to this in other IBM machines, dunno. Jason D. From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jan 5 21:33:39 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: <199801051818.NAA19362@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Hi all! > > > they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software. > Yes to a point, Redhat uses RPM to assist installation, others > (mostly) uses standard slackware installation/setup format. > I'm not sure if redhat makes of the s/w from other places other than > redhat especially with that installation or loading them onto hd. Ummm... RedHat, Caldera, and Debian can all use RPMS. Packages that aren't RPMed are usually .tar.gz or .tgz and can be installed by RTFMing. Remember, it's still possible to install windoze software that _doesn't_ use the install wizard. ttyl srw From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Jan 5 21:37:42 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> Just pry a floppy drive out of an old IBM XT. They plug right in and work, assuming you have the same North Star controller I have in my IMSAI. Herb Johnson ("Dr. S-100") explained this to me some time ago. I tried it, and it works. As he told me, the sectoring is determined by the controller, not by the drive. (One thing, though: you don't "just pick up" and Altair 8800a. You make burnt offerings of Microsoft Stock certificates, and burn incense in front of the first issue of Byte magazine, and maybe if the gods smile upon you, you are granted an Altair 8800a. You _don't_ "just pick one up". If you aren't going to treat it with the proper respect, send it to me! :-) On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 20:35:41, you wrote: >Hi, I just picked up an Altair 8800a. It has a North Star disk drive >controller in it. I think it uses a Shugart Sa400 drive. Does anyone know >if it uses a hard sectored or soft sectored disk? Where can I find a SA >400? I know they were very common in the old computers. I have access to a >lot of old computers (old Tandys, Commodores and other stranger things.) >Can anyone tell me which ones migh t have a SA 400 drive? Yes, Yes, I know >you're all going to be PO'd that I would use one of those old machines for >parts, but I've offered them to people over and over and no one is >interested unless I PAY them to take them. > > > Joe -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 21:38:44 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:05 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1a54$97e53d40$LocalHost@hotze> That's TERRIBLE. I mean 486 parts can even get SOLD AS-IS for a decent sum of money. The whole system goes for a couple hundred. So if they're going to scrap 'em.... but anyway, lots of schools, non-profit orginazations, etc. would love to have decent 386's, and 486's would be better. Sure, you can't play Quake on 'em, but a 386 was designed with 10 years of x86 software in mind. And, as history has proven, it is easy to destroy, as the Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, and Greeks did, but it is so hard to CREATE and PRESERVE. That's why we must try to save these things. Eventually, when your or my XT is one of the last 60-75, we probably won't be alive, but the future genereations will love seeing a working one. Well, there's my $0.02 on this. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 4:51 AM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** >>At 07:43 AM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >>>Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic >>>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >>>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! >>> >>> Zane >> >> No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he >>wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? > >I wouldn't doubt it. Here is what she had to say, with my original answer, >I guess I should have added that I was also trying to save them from >individuals like she was talking about. > >Initially I just thought she was fronting for someone that dealt in classic >computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ >get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems >that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides >considering the fact that some of the systems I've got, like the Atari >TT030 go for several hundred dollars. > >>Hi, Zane. >> >>> >Seems u have a lot of equipment, any surplus that you might give away? I >>> >could get a good price for u, if you are interested. >>> >>> Um, No. It's a hobby, and an attempt to preserve a part of our history >>> that is steadily finding it's way into our landfills. >> >>My local dealer supply old comps or household appliance to iron, alloy >>or plastic mills. They melt them down and supply these to manufacturers. >> >>It's recycling. >> >>486-and-above systems get refurbished... >> >>Regards, >>Crystal. > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 5 21:39:10 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <01bd1a54$a654eb00$LocalHost@hotze> OK... I've got a Cyrix 200, so give me your games. ;-) (Implying that you give me the listences, without them "installed" on any other machine) Or, if you've got some sharware.... -----Original Message----- From: John Higginbotham To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 9:08 PM Subject: Re: operating systems >At 08:48 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: > >>Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't >>sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's >>machines and OSes. > >Try loading up Buck Rogers and the Planet of Zoom! on a Cyrix 200 and see >how well it plays. Same goes for Frogger. :) They run blindingly fast, >making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, >but most of those only run right on 486s. > > Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's >>software market. Doing what? > >Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to >get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect >today's game market at all. It's a whole different ballpark out there these >days. > >>so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is >>still something. > >But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least >$10.00 a piece, and you would have to come up with a cheap way to make sure >the games ran at original speed on all systems, another few bucks for R&D >right there, so you'll probably end up spending $50.00 for a compilation CD >with maybe 10 games on it, and nothing else. (Can you say "Roberta Williams >Sierra Compilation"?) > >Why not release the games as shareware, with no set ammount defined? People >could pay what the game is worth to them. I think Maxis did that with the >original SimCity. > >>Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish > >Oh, not at all. I expected alot more flak from people when I started this >thread, but was suprised at how well the members of the list are taking it. >(so far) > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 5 23:44:06 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980105181011.56a754f6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980105234406.52072600@intellistar.net> Tony said: > If anyone has this spec, I'll consider building this interface. Done! I have some specs. if it's not enough I'll get the rest by hook or crook! I could use a hard drive in my Integrals! Joe At 02:53 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >> Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone >> come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great >> to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks! > >This gets discussed by PERQ-fanatics from time to time (PERQs use strange >hard drives - SA4000s, Micropolis 1200s, ST506 interface things that are >no longer available). I've got a few schematics sort-of sketched out >(microcontroller + buffer RAM + ROM + GPIB chip + SCSI chip, for example >(or maybe I'd bit-bang the interfaces using parallel port chips).), but >I've not figured out how to write the control software yet. > >In fact what's really holding me back is that I don't have a >specification of the CS/80 or amigo command sets (the commands that HP >used for their drives, and which are sort-of a de-facto standard). If >anyone has this spec, I'll consider building this interface. > > > >> Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > >-tony > > From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Mon Jan 5 21:52:54 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980106145254.007d4e40@isd.canberra.edu.au> At 21:25 5/01/98 -0600, Anthony Clifton wrote: > >> Anything other than 486+ >> get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems >> that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. > >You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd >rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably >efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a >landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away >under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them >scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Actually, here in Canberra (which is the capital of Australia, *not* Sydney or Melbourne (off topic, but one of my pet peeves, sorry)), I'd much prefer they go to landfill. You see, at our local landfills there is a company called Revolve that has scavenging rights, and rescues all this stuff. I've picked up a Tandy CoCo 3 with box, manuals and some software, a Commodore 64 with Datasette, music keyboard overlay, manuals, software and box, a Commodore 128, a Commodore 1541-II and 1571 floppy drive,a BBC Model B with floppy drive, an Atari 1024STfm with monitor, a Amstrad CPC464 with monitor and an Apple IIe with disk drive, all for about $5 to $10 each. All of them except the Atari ST worked fine at first switch-on (the ST still doesn't work - I suspect a memory fault). I also managed to pick up four Vectrex cartridges for $2. It's now got to the point that people often drop their stuff off directly at Revolve rather than dumping it at the landfill (especially now the local government has instituted a fee to dump stuff at the landfill). Of course, the only problem is that since all the stuff is stored outside you have to get to it before the rain hits... Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| |Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | | University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| | scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jan 5 22:03:20 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801060237.VAA03555@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Jan 5, 98 09:41:11 pm Message-ID: <9801060403.AA09136@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980105/edaf77eb/attachment.ksh From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 5 22:04:41 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980105230349.006e5cd8@netpath.net> The biggest chunk of my collection are games that I no longer have boxes for, etc. Let alone original disks or license agreements. Heck, I think even most of the companies are out of business by now. Anyone remember Datasoft? Epyx? At 06:39 AM 1/6/98 +0300, you wrote: >OK... I've got a Cyrix 200, so give me your games. ;-) (Implying that you >give me the listences, without them "installed" on any other machine) Or, >if you've got some sharware.... -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 5 23:21:39 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <01bd1a54$97e53d40$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: > And, as history has proven, it is easy to destroy, as the Romans, > Egyptians, Sumerians, and Greeks did, but it is so hard to CREATE and > PRESERVE. That's why we must try to save these things. Eventually, when Uhhhhhhh....hmmmmmmm...never mind, it'd be off topic. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 6 00:13:22 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980106001322.5fd73876@intellistar.net> At 03:37 AM 1/6/98 GMT, you wrote: You _don't_ "just pick one up". If you >aren't going to treat it with the proper respect, send it to me! :-) Oh forgive me Great Altair in the sky, father of all computers. I will burn ten PS2s in atonement. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 6 00:19:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980106145254.007d4e40@isd.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980106001954.5207294c@intellistar.net> Great news. Not just for the computers but for all the other itms that can be used. Reusing is a lot more efficient than recycling. There's a surplus store near here that people drop a lot of old stuff off at. The store owner leaves it out front and it's free to anyone that wants it. That's how I got my IBM 5100. $0.00 FREE ! ( I won't make the mistake of saying that I picked it up :-) At 02:52 PM 1/6/98 +1100, you wrote: >At 21:25 5/01/98 -0600, Anthony Clifton wrote: > >> >>> Anything other than 486+ >>> get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems >>> that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. >> >>You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd >>rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably >>efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a >>landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away >>under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them >>scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... > >Actually, here in Canberra (which is the capital of Australia, *not* Sydney >or Melbourne (off topic, but one of my pet peeves, sorry)), I'd much prefer >they go to landfill. You see, at our local landfills there is a company >called Revolve that has scavenging rights, and rescues all this stuff. >I've picked up a Tandy CoCo 3 with box, manuals and some software, a >Commodore 64 with Datasette, music keyboard overlay, manuals, software and >box, a Commodore 128, a Commodore 1541-II and 1571 floppy drive,a BBC Model >B with floppy drive, an Atari 1024STfm with monitor, a Amstrad CPC464 with >monitor and an Apple IIe with disk drive, all for about $5 to $10 each. >All of them except the Atari ST worked fine at first switch-on (the ST >still doesn't work - I suspect a memory fault). I also managed to pick up >four Vectrex cartridges for $2. It's now got to the point that people >often drop their stuff off directly at Revolve rather than dumping it at >the landfill (especially now the local government has instituted a fee to >dump stuff at the landfill). > >Of course, the only problem is that since all the stuff is stored outside >you have to get to it before the rain hits... > >Regards, > >| Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| >|Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | >| University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| >| scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | > > From pvhp at forte.com Mon Jan 5 22:58:16 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Tony Duell wrote: !> MFM (early 80's?) !> RLL (late 80's?) !> SCSI (late 70's?) !> ESDI (?) !> IDE !> !> any others? Thanks... ! !I can't help with dates, but there are a lot of others : ! !SASI (forerunner of SCSI) !SMD !HPIB :-) (Seriously, HP did make large-ish hard disks with an HPIB interface) !Massbus (?) ! !And the custom ones : !Shugart SA4000 (one 50 wire cable) !Shugart SA1000 (50 wire control cable, that could be shared with 8" floppy !drives, and a 20/26 wire data cable) !DEC : R80 (almost SMD, but different enough to give you headaches!), !RK05, RL01, RK06, etc... Doubtless other manufactures had similar custom !interfaves !Diablo 30 (almost the same as RK05, but not quite) !Micropolis 1200 (either the raw 50 wire interface, or the formatted one. !There was a standard Micropolis controller for the latter) Well - now that the discussion has turned to disk drives and such I would like to ask in general (not necessarily to Tony in particular): where might I be able to find either an ESDI or a SCSI controller for the Q22 bus in a MicroVAX II? Shop names and addresses in the Bay area would be especially helpful but I am perfectly happy to look elsewhere (even DEC). Alas, the recently mentioned organization with a web page at http://www.dda.org/dda.html apparently does not list any hardware (not even if you "subscribe"(?)). Thanks to the efforts of a member of this list I am now the extremely happy owner of a uVAX II with three RD53 bootable drives (Ultrix 1.2, 2.1, && VMS 5.4 - the latter (c) 1990 and not strictly classic software :=}). At any rate, I would like to up the disk capacity of the machine by a fair amount and install a decent C compiler (Under VMS I am currently limited to DCL and MACRO as the only programming languages - oddly I have both FORTRAN and PASCAL verbs in my DCLTABLES but no such images under SYS$SYSROOT.) A big thanks to this list for information already provided as well as that anticipated. Peter Prymmer From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 5 23:03:11 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" > ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. > > Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were > developed? The ones I can think of include: > > MFM (early 80's?) | You are confusing interfaces with recording schemes. > RLL (late 80's?) | These are actually recording schemes usually on a > SCSI (late 70's?) \ an ST-506 interface. RLL is also used with > ESDI (?) \other interfaces including ESDI, SCSI, and IDE. > IDE - don > > any others? Thanks... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Jan 5 23:04:03 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980106001322.5fd73876@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980106001322.5fd73876@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34c4bb36.89711117@hoser> Now you're catching on... ;-) On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:13:22, you wrote: >At 03:37 AM 1/6/98 GMT, you wrote: You _don't_ "just pick one up". If you >>aren't going to treat it with the proper respect, send it to me! :-) > > Oh forgive me Great Altair in the sky, father of all computers. I will >burn ten PS2s in atonement. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From KFergason at aol.com Mon Jan 5 22:43:26 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: old Bernoulli stuff Message-ID: does anyone need some old Bernoulli 8in 20MB Flexible Disk Cartridges? I got about 45 of them, plus a cleaning kit. The company was gonna toss 'em. Let me know if you are interested. Kelly KFergason@aol.com From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 5 23:29:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > > >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. > > http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. And I tried filling it in as "utah" as well, knowing the approximate geography of Caldera. I'd post that private, but now that I _know_ that the OpenDOS kernel source is at the caldera.com site (and is only marginally within our charter), the CP/M source location becomes crucial to maintaining my self-respect in this forum. Or something like that. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 6 00:01:03 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> References: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34b6c856.20060752@mail.swbell.net> On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:29:50 -0500, you said: >Roger Ivie wrote: >> http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ >My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. I just tried it, and it works (for me, that is) as is. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 6 00:05:42 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? In-Reply-To: <9801040917.AA02924@forte.com> References: <9801040917.AA02924@forte.com> Message-ID: <34b7c974.20346856@mail.swbell.net> On Sun, 4 Jan 98 01:17:06 PST, you said: >A web page discussing flavors and ports >at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/BSD-info/BSD.html seems to be inaccesible >at this time. I just checked it; it's there. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:13:35 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <980105213834_-1502224976@mrin39.mx> Message-ID: >mention how they get dozens of CoCos for free, find them in shops for $5, >etc. Look, I have never even SEEN a CoCo, and I live in Boston, MA, where I >thought there were lots of computers. I would love to run an enhanced CoCo. It's all in where you are, I've only seen two CoCo's, and I've got them both. Around here I can rarely find anything as cheap as $5. In fact amazingly enough the only two systems that come to mind are a TI-99/4A and a Mac Colour Classic, both from the same store at different times! (I really need to go there more often) | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:21:06 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <01bd1a54$97e53d40$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <199801060617.BAA29650@mail.cgocable.net> > That's TERRIBLE. I mean 486 parts can even get SOLD AS-IS for a decent sum > of money. The whole system goes for a couple hundred. So if they're going > to scrap 'em.... but anyway, lots of schools, non-profit orginazations, etc. > would love to have decent 386's, and 486's would be better. Sure, you can't > play Quake on 'em, but a 386 was designed with 10 years of x86 software in > mind. Yepper! I would beat up that one because of several things also real nice to donate those to schools, etc and including me looking for some parts to fix some other items. AS IS at that price? No way! Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:21:06 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: <199801051818.NAA19362@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199801060617.BAA29643@mail.cgocable.net> > On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Ummm... RedHat, Caldera, and Debian can all use RPMS. Packages that > aren't RPMed are usually .tar.gz or .tgz and can be installed by RTFMing. Thanks, just wondering... :) But when I use the program to manage all s/w much like the win95's feature, will this kind still work? > Remember, it's still possible to install windoze software that _doesn't_ > use the install wizard. > > ttyl > srw Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:21:07 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real In-Reply-To: References: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 5, 98 00:08:31 am Message-ID: <199801060617.BAA29647@mail.cgocable.net> > When I tried Linux for the first time, I got all sorts of strange > problems - fdisk would ignore the keyboard - sometimes, I'd get odd > output, etc. It turned out (after a lot of looking at schematics, then at > the logic analyser, then at the schematic again) that my memory board had > a subtle timing problem (caused, in part, by the fact that it was a > 2-sided board with no ground plane, and the ground was bouncing all over > the place). MS-DOS programs (even ones that used extended memory) never > noticed this. Memory diagnostics, left running overnight, never found it. > But Linux did. So check your memory... > > Also, Linux sometimes uses hardware in ways that MS-DOS doesn't. I've had > a cheap clone keyboard fail to work with Linux as it didn't correctly > implement a couple of the commands in the IBM Techref. I doubt this is > the problem, thought. > > -tony See? Many generics unless it's decent ones for a generics is not worth the trouble most of time. I wonder if you could just make another memory board with fewer memory chips to keep things shorter and compact? Good ones I would think of is 256K x 16bit DRAM's, still available for about 7 cdn each. And downright quick at 70 to 60ns. Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:23:17 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5" >ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox. > >Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were >developed? The ones I can think of include: > >MFM (early 80's?) >RLL (late 80's?) >SCSI (late 70's?) >ESDI (?) >IDE > >any others? Thanks... DMA/ACSI Some of the models of the Atari ST series had a port to connect ACSI hard drives, in fact I think all of them except the Falcon had a port for this, from what I understand it was pretty hidious. Sounds simular to the HD's originally used on the Macintosh 128/512 that connected to the external floppy contector (no idea what it was, probably MFM). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:32:17 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> References: <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980105203541.44ff3cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >Just pry a floppy drive out of an old IBM XT. They plug right in and >work, assuming you have the same North Star controller I have in my >IMSAI. Herb Johnson ("Dr. S-100") explained this to me some time ago. >I tried it, and it works. As he told me, the sectoring is determined So does this mean I could plug one of these drives into the Pertec Floppy controller I've got, looking at the manual I think it's a FD2411 controller dating to about 1977. I gather that it expects to find a Model FD200 Flexible Disk Drive. If not any other ideas on where I could get one of these drives? Might be easier than getting the controller for the pair of 8" drives I've not been able to identify. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:35:29 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801060631.BAA01489@mail.cgocable.net> > > DMA/ACSI > Some of the models of the Atari ST series had a port to connect ACSI hard > drives, in fact I think all of them except the Falcon had a port for this, > from what I understand it was pretty hidious. > > Sounds simular to the HD's originally used on the Macintosh 128/512 that > connected to the external floppy contector (no idea what it was, probably > MFM). > > Zane Zane!? Spits out water! What? I have seen exactly like that, uses driver on an bootable mac disk to talk to that hd via serial port. ZZZZZZ.....what? program loading done? hummpth... once again Click, tap tap click to do someting...yawn!.... waiting form some thing to exhange stuff around between two. :) Better have Mac+ not that serial method! :) Jason D. > From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 6 00:33:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** References: Message-ID: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > > > No, but sounds like a good candidate for a mail bombing! I suppose he > > >wants you to ship it to him at your expense, right? > > computers, so her reply REALLY PISSED ME OFF! Anything other than 486+ > > get's melted down for scrap? I'm sorry, but that includes A LOT of systems > > that there are a lot of people that would love to have them. Besides > > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Within a century or so, archeologists will be going through the landfills where something might be salvageable. Something melted down and made into into a (kind to the earth) candleholder isn't. Q: How many evironmentalists does it take to replace a light bulb? A: None. Darkness is part of nature. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:38:14 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980105180940.0e872806@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801060634.BAA01783@mail.cgocable.net> > Just for the record... That was a *joke* about colorizing movies! It > should be illegal, punishable by drawing & quarterign. Movies made in b&w > (well, good ones, anyway) made use of the b&w; colorizing kills a lot of > what the director worked so hard for. > > Just did't want anyone thinking I actually *liked* colorized movies... 8^) I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality. Jason D. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 5 19:52:19 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199801060648.BAA03464@mail.cgocable.net> Eyes glazes over thinking what it looks like 1k years later in landfills. Badly yellowed board and plastic, crumbling at a touch, all traces gone, thin parts eaten away, thick layer rust covering seized up drives, riddled with rustout holes in cases, blackened glass. Hard and darkened as soapstone that once was solder joints. Mass of green strings with bits of faded colored platic material hanging on in rags was former wires. Some crushed byond understanding, holding up a part, "what this?" And there's the thing,...ow! bitten by still charged tube! :) lots of rotted, more-less bodies of chips with legs all eaten away rattling around... Ah! I have seen the plastic rot (dulling on the plastic chips), anyone have seen this? Jason D. > Within a century or so, archeologists will be going through the > landfills where something might be salvageable. Something melted > down and made into into a (kind to the earth) candleholder isn't. > > Q: How many evironmentalists does it take to replace a light bulb? > A: None. Darkness is part of nature. > -- > Ward Griffiths > Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? > WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 00:51:44 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801060631.BAA01489@mail.cgocable.net> References: <1.5.4.16.19980105181110.0e875a7e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >> >> DMA/ACSI >> Some of the models of the Atari ST series had a port to connect ACSI hard >> drives, in fact I think all of them except the Falcon had a port for this, >> from what I understand it was pretty hidious. >> >> Sounds simular to the HD's originally used on the Macintosh 128/512 that >> connected to the external floppy contector (no idea what it was, probably >> MFM). >> >> Zane >Zane!? > >Spits out water! What? I have seen exactly like that, uses driver >on an bootable mac disk to talk to that hd via serial port. >ZZZZZZ.....what? program loading done? hummpth... once again >Click, tap tap click to do someting...yawn!.... >waiting form some thing to exhange stuff around between two. :) > >Better have Mac+ not that serial method! :) Ack, an old Mac accessing the HD over serial? That's even uglier than what I'm refering to, that sounds worse than going off of Floppies. The HD I'm talking about is a 20Mb disk that connects through the floppy connecter and as such the Mac can boot off of the HD. I'm possitive that it was intended for the Mac 128 and 512 since the Mac Plus has SCSI, but the one time I've had one it was attached to a Mac Plus. Unfortunatly I no longer have it, I got it last year when I was putting together a pair of Mac Plus systems for my cousins 18 month old twins (they really love those computer :^). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 6 01:39:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? References: <01IS0H2GTVFM8WWZ8P@cc.usu.edu> <34B1C14E.EE909233@cnct.com> <34b6c856.20060752@mail.swbell.net> Message-ID: <34B1DFB9.238A9F0A@cnct.com> Barry Peterson wrote: > > On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:29:50 -0500, you (gram@cnct.com) said: > > >Roger Ivie wrote: > >> http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ > > >My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. > > I just tried it, and it works (for me, that is) as is. > _______________ > > Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net > Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, > Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. It worked this time. Must have been down for a couple of hours. Even my own users complain when that happens. Must be why I hate them (the users -- not these folks, by the gods,no). But I thought I'd explored every link from the Caldera pages. (And just now checking, I find this one. One of my two remaining brain cells may be dropping bits.) -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From pvhp at forte.com Tue Jan 6 02:21:06 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <9801060821.AA02069@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: UNIX questions? Barry Peterson wrote: !On Sun, 4 Jan 98 01:17:06 PST, you said: ! ! ! !>A web page discussing flavors and ports !>at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/BSD-info/BSD.html seems to be inaccesible !>at this time.=20 ! !I just checked it; it's there. Thanks for the reminder, I can see it now too. Bruce Lane had a question about netbooting BSD on a DEC 3100 MIPs machine. I thought that I had squirreled away some info on it - but it turns out to be pertinent to VAX not MIPs. If it is of any use to anyone herein was the posting to the linux-vax list from this past Oct 6: !=================== begin include 8< ======================= Sender: linux-vax@ise.canberra.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: Brian Chase To: pvhp@forte.com Subject: VAXstation Netboot HOWTO Update. X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Linux Vax Port List I've made some minor content modifications to the VAXstation Netboot HOWTO. More are on the way as hopefully the IRIX, Solaris, and NeXTSTEP sections are completed. I've reworked the HOWTO using the Linux Documentation Project's SGML-tools. So now the HOWTO comes in a slighly different plain text flavor and a super-nifty HTML version. http://www.carpediem.com/~brianc/projects/vaxen/VAXstation-netboot-HOWTO http://www.carpediem.com/~brianc/projects/vaxen/VAXstation-netboot-HOWTO.html -brian. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian D. Chase Systems Coordinator brian.chase@carpediem.com -- Compression, Inc. - 13765 Alton Pkwy, Suite B - Irvine, CA 92618, USA -- !====================== end include ======================== Peter Prymmer From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 04:37:04 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980106053519.0068ab80@netpath.net> For the longest time, when I was very young, I thought those movies were made in black and white because everything WAS black and white. Crazy, huh? At 01:38 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what >colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 6 06:57:51 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <9800068841.AA884120678@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > they go to landfill. You see, at our local landfills there is a company > called Revolve that has scavenging rights, and rescues all this stuff. > I've picked up a Tandy CoCo 3 with box, manuals and some software, a > Commodore 64 with Datasette, music keyboard overlay, manuals, software and > box, a Commodore 128, a Commodore 1541-II and 1571 floppy drive,a BBC Model > B with floppy drive, an Atari 1024STfm with monitor, a Amstrad CPC464 with > monitor and an Apple IIe with disk drive, all for about $5 to $10 each. > All of them except the Atari ST worked fine at first switch-on (the ST > still doesn't work - I suspect a memory fault). I also managed to pick > up four Vectrex cartridges for $2. It's now got to the point that > people often drop their stuff off directly at Revolve rather than > dumping it at the landfill (especially now the local government has > instituted a fee to dump stuff at the landfill). > > Of course, the only problem is that since all the stuff is stored outside > you have to get to it before the rain hits... You lucky beggar! I wish there was something like that around here (central England)! Rain is not as bad as many people think. The water is (fairly) pure, and things often only need drying. When I upgraded my Commodore 8296 to an 8296D, the parts came from a machine in the skip at work - some of them I had to dig out of the snow... Philip. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 6 07:50:33 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> Message-ID: <13322047134.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [About the method of acquiring an 8800a] Is there any way I can modify this so as to get a KA-10? :-) ------- From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Jan 6 08:43:24 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801060648.BAA03464@mail.cgocable.net> References: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980106094324.00b35ac0@mail.wincom.net> At 01:52 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >Eyes glazes over thinking what it looks like 1k years later in >landfills. Badly yellowed board and plastic, crumbling at a touch, >all traces gone, thin parts eaten away, thick layer rust covering >seized up drives, riddled with rustout holes in cases, blackened >glass. Hard and darkened as soapstone that once was solder joints. >Mass of green strings with bits of faded colored platic material >hanging on in rags was former wires. Some crushed byond >understanding, holding up a part, "what this?" And there's the >thing,...ow! bitten by still charged tube! :) lots of rotted, >more-less bodies of chips with legs all eaten away rattling around... > >Ah! > >I have seen the plastic rot (dulling on the plastic chips), anyone >have seen this? > >Jason D. > > I once had a Philips tape recorder brought into my shop for repairs that had been buried in a back yard. (?) Even after a short period of time it was a very sick machine. Also,(off topic, please forgive me, Bill) the mind boggles at the thought of the civic officials who bury vhs tapes in time capsules, to be dug up in a hundred years!!! Regards Charlie Fox From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 6 09:12:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> <>landfills. Badly yellowed board and plastic, crumbling at a touch, <>all traces gone, thin parts eaten away, thick layer rust covering <>seized up drives, riddled with rustout holes in cases, blackened <>glass. Hard and darkened as soapstone that once was solder joints. <>Mass of green strings with bits of faded colored platic material Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of preservation. Some cases there were newspapers in the middle of the stack that were as fresh as printed in appearance. Yet in another layer old papers were completely composted. I'd suspect that old technology would be found the same way, some just oxidized piles and others completly intact. Allison From william at ans.net Tue Jan 6 10:13:50 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <34B1D03A.8C245589@cnct.com> Message-ID: > > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your > > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! Yes, that was completely tactless on their part. Maybe if they collect something like Hummels, perhaps you should have offered to grind them up to make spackle. > > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd > > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably > > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a > > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away > > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them > > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... I agree here, and for the most part, the majority of computers end up being recycled, either in the U.S. or abroad. I have nothing against the scrappers, other than those that flat out refuse to deal with the collectors. It is VERY efficient (something like 98% by mass get recycled now - CRTs and some photocopier parts are the only stumbling blocks), and frankly, one can make a good living at it. What one can not make a good living at is refurbishing them - they just get devalued too fast. Lets face it, we can not save it all. True, we should try to get the goodies into the collector's hands so they survive. Often in makes more sense to try to resell a system than to scrap it (like the TT030). For the most part, however, computers (and other electronics) probably should be scrapped. For example, one place I deal with in Kansas City (and now Chicago) has a roomful of IBM Series/1 minicomputers all humming away. Eventually, they will get decommissioned. If I were a scrapper and won the bid for them (sometimes the bid just means picking them up!), I would keep one for myself, one sripped down for spares, and offer any others to members on the list (or the collecting community in general). If those latter ones do not move, they would get scrapped. This applies to just about anything, PeeCees, VT100s, ES/9000s, C64s, etc. - with the exception of the special machines (_old_ machines, prototypes, high demand collectables, etc.). Obviously, the day I scrap a S/360 will never come. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 6 05:49:39 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the > 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of > preservation. Some cases there were newspapers in the middle of the stack > that were as fresh as printed in appearance. Yet in another layer old > papers were completely composted. I'd suspect that old technology would > be found the same way, some just oxidized piles and others completly > intact. Yes, I have heard about this on Discovery Channel. And they dug up that landfill at New York and found was just grey sludge at the bottom. But most of stuff they found was still readable and bit discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. Jason D. > > Allison > > > From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 10:59:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980106115948.007c9d20@netpath.net> At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration? - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jan 6 11:05:31 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: UNIX questions? Message-ID: <01IS1WISHX4Y9AMF2S@cc.usu.edu> > Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > >It'll be nice when Caldera follows up on their promise to release the > > >source code for CP/M and DR-DOS (now OpenDOS). _That_ will definitely > > >have some results on-topic for this mailing list. > http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ > > My ISP's nameserver can't track that down. And I tried filling it in as > "utah" as well, knowing the approximate geography of Caldera. This is the unofficial CP/M site; it's not run by Caldera, but by someone who was willing to argue with Caldera long enough to get permission to put the stuff up. It's being hosted by a machine at University of Texas at Arlington: UTA. Here's what my machine gives me when i nslookup cdl.uta.edu: Name: dave.uta.edu Address: 129.107.2.554 Aliases: cdl.uta.edu > I'd post > that private, but now that I _know_ that the OpenDOS kernel source is at > the caldera.com site (and is only marginally within our charter), the > CP/M source location becomes crucial to maintaining my self-respect in > this forum. Or something like that. IIRC, the CP/M 2.2 sources are available _somewhere_ on the caldera site, but they're password protected and you have to find the right form to submit to get the password, etc. The unofficial site includes source to CP/M 2.2, 3.0, and 68K... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 6 06:17:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980106115948.007c9d20@netpath.net> References: <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199801061713.MAA02669@mail.cgocable.net> > At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: > > >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... > >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. > > What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer > capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average > conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration? Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened! The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it again, it's ruined. Jason D. > > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > > > From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 11:33:30 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801061713.MAA02669@mail.cgocable.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980106115948.007c9d20@netpath.net> <199801061645.LAA27664@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980106123330.007c6aa0@netpath.net> At 12:17 PM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty >easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened! >The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a >favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it >again, it's ruined. What happened? Water get through a scratch and the aluminum started corroding? Never dropped one in a lake, but my Warcraft II cd took a dip in the toilet one day. I'm still wondering how it got on top of the toilet in the first place... - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 6 11:27:50 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980106112750.00b73890@pc> John Higginbotham wrote: > They run blindingly fast, >making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils, >but most of those only run right on 486s. Again, there must be a market for better emulation / slowdown software. There should be a way to put the Pentium in an 8008 compatibility mode. :-) >>Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's software market. Doing what? > >Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to >get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect >today's game market at all. Yes, the sales of old software might be a very small fraction of mainstream games, so small as to have no effect - but I don't like to play fast-and-loose with self-created and self-serving notions of "it's not hurting anyone" when it comes to intellectual property issues. >But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least >$10.00 a piece, Maybe the net and micropayments will help. Or in this case, a web site with do-it-yourself downloading of $10 bundles of 20 old games might satify both the developers and the funding of the site. Shareware is a *sure* way to gather no cash, especially with a dusty product like this. Being afflicted with entrepreneur's disease, I've toyed with the idea of this as a business: collecting up the distribution rights for old software, bundling them on CD, adding emulators, and selling for reasonable prices, etc. to recreate the old computer experience. As they say, they're not making any more "retro." :-) The hard parts would be finding the rightful owners, forging acceptable contracts with each, and without giving them the impression that millions are to be made. Or in some cases, if the companies that owned the products are truly *gone*, to be willing to take the risk they wouldn't sue you if you assumed you could distribute. Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s... as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc. It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with 8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 12:51:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980106112750.00b73890@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980106135131.007db430@netpath.net> At 11:27 AM 1/6/98 -0600, you wrote: >Again, there must be a market for better emulation / slowdown software. >There should be a way to put the Pentium in an 8008 compatibility mode. :-) The games would run fine, if they weren't clock dependent. There are a handful of programmers that actually had the forethought to think of those blazing fast 386 and 486 systems of the future. :) >Maybe the net and micropayments will help. Or in this case, a web site >with do-it-yourself downloading of $10 bundles of 20 old games might >satify both the developers and the funding of the site. Shareware is >a *sure* way to gather no cash, especially with a dusty product like this. I thought about that too, but I'm not sure it would catch on. >Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s... >as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational >apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc. >It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with >8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall. I bet there's some sort of surplus/tax writeoff thingamajig at work here... - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 6 12:51:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: operating systems Message-ID: <199801061851.AA28435@world.std.com> I have a Heathkit H-8 computer in working order with documentation, software, terminal (H-19), disk drives that I no longer use. I'd like to find someone who can make good use of this equipment. It would be helpful if you can handle shipping costs but everything is negotiable. If you are interested, please send email or call 408-881-3489. --Bill Hall From red at bears.org Tue Jan 6 15:15:23 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801060631.BAA01489@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Spits out water! What? I have seen exactly like that, uses driver > on an bootable mac disk to talk to that hd via serial port. > ZZZZZZ.....what? program loading done? hummpth... once again > Click, tap tap click to do someting...yawn!.... > waiting form some thing to exhange stuff around between two. :) Speaking of the Apple HD20, an external 20 meg hard disk for the Mac 512k. Since the machine it was designed to be used with does not sport a SCSI bus, it plugs into the floppy port. According to Apple, it is supported on the 512k, 512ke, Plus, and SE. Since these are the machines that support the 400k floppy drive, I suspect that it would also work on the 128k barring any memory shortages, although I haven't been able to test this yet. Apple can't decide whether or not it's supported: here it is, there it isn't. It cost over $1000 new in 1986 (although I believe it was introduced sometime in 1985). Inside is a 3.5" HH Rodime 552 disk, which actually has an Apple Disk Drive interface right on it. I had expected some sort of conversion circuitry (like the old Sun ESDI->SCSI boards), but there isn't. (400k) Average seek: 415 ms Rotational: 394, 429, 472, 525, 590 RPM Burst transfer: 489.6 Kbits/sec (serial) (HD20) Average seek: 85 ms Rotational: 2744 RPM Burst transfer: 500 Kbits/sec (serial) It looks like the 500kbits/sec is a limitation of the floppy interface and not of any device on it. Anyway, since the 512k only knows how to boot from the internal floppy, and speaks only MFS (the original, flat Mac File System---the folders are purely ornamental! Stupid trivia bit: folders on MFS disks have one extra pixel) on a 400k disk drive, Apple got creative with their solution: The Apple HD20 INIT (introduced with System Software 1.1) patches the ROM to allow the use of HFS (a 20 meg flat file system would be a horrible mess), the HD20, and the 800k disk drive. Insert the boot disk with 1.1 and the HD20 INIT, the Mac boots half-way, spits out the disk, and continues from the HD20. Kind of neat. On the Plus (and presumably 512ke), which speaks HFS and 800k disk drive natively, you can boot right off the HD20. But the Plus has SCSI, so this is trivial. ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 6 17:30:42 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Altair In-Reply-To: <13322047134.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <34bda5d1.84234042@hoser> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980106173042.460f7074@intellistar.net> At 05:50 AM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >[About the method of acquiring an 8800a] > >Is there any way I can modify this so as to get a KA-10? >:-) Well the previous owner has about 29 more old cars out there. No telling what I'll find. Keep your fingers crossed. Joe > >------- > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 6 16:43:43 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> from "Peter Prymmer" at Jan 5, 98 08:58:16 pm Message-ID: <9801062243.AA10914@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/65618abc/attachment.ksh From Zeus334 at aol.com Tue Jan 6 17:05:29 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: DECWriter II Message-ID: <8c913ff0.34b2b8bb@aol.com> I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I miss? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 6 17:36:38 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: DECWriter II In-Reply-To: <8c913ff0.34b2b8bb@aol.com> from "Zeus334" at Jan 6, 98 06:05:29 pm Message-ID: <9801062336.AA11272@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980106/47671437/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Tue Jan 6 18:41:44 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:06 2005 Subject: DECWriter II In-Reply-To: <8c913ff0.34b2b8bb@aol.com> Message-ID: > I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing > bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security > camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I > couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I > miss? Do not fret over its loss, there are still hundreds (thousands?) still in active duty. Every MCI site I have been to has at least a few floating around, sometimes connected to the IBM S/88s. William Donzelli william@ans.net From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 6 19:15:47 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Big "B", update Message-ID: <199801070115.UAA16185@webern.cs.unc.edu> There is an awesome B205 page at the University of Virginia, plus a pretty cool B5000 page nearby. Here's the URL: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/images/manuals It looks like they scanned in the original manuals for these beasties, instead of just retyping them. Seeing the originals really adds to the presentation, IMHO. And the B205 was _so_ cool - magnetic drum as main memory! Those were the days. Cheers, Bill. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 19:35:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: H-8 Computer needs loving home In-Reply-To: <34B28B22.E83C7A90@mlmassoc.com> Message-ID: >I have a Heathkit H-8 computer in working order with documentation, >software, terminal (H-19), disk drives that I no longer use. I'd like >to find someone who can make good use of this equipment. > >It would be helpful if you can handle shipping costs but everything is >negotiable. > >If you are interested, please send email or call 408-881-3489. If still available I'm interested. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 6 19:42:02 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801070142.UAA16263@webern.cs.unc.edu> ] You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd ] rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably ] efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a ] landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away ] under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them ] scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... Imagine this, fifty years from now, a web of nanotech bots climbing through and mapping a landfill, finding antique treasures, maybe getting enough chemical data to reconstruct the things before decay set in... I'd vote for the landfill over the slag heap any day. Of course, my basement, when I get one, will be the best option. ] Anthony Clifton - Wirehead Bill. Until it fills up. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 18:40:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <9801060403.AA09136@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 5, 98 08:03:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/54386250/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 6 20:07:28 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: S-bug and DELABS? Message-ID: <199801070207.VAA16293@webern.cs.unc.edu> Anybody got manuals or hints for the S-BUG and DELABS monitor ROMs? I scored a SwTPC 69/A today that has both of these, but I only sorta remember S-BUG from way-back-when, and have never even heard of DELABS. To jiggle your memories, here are some of the S-BUG commands that I remember/figured-out today: ^A - set accumulator A ^B - " " B etc. for other registers G - go to address in PC R - show registers S - show stack D - boot from disk (?) E - examine memory P - punch (motorola S19 format memory dump) As for the DELABS ROM, it seems to be involved with the EPROM burner. I suspect it can read & write EPROMs, and maybe up/download binaries over one of the serial ports. But I've only figured out a few of its commands: D - memory hex dump F - fill memory I suppose I'll end up disassembling them both eventually, but hints could make the job much easier, and maybe unnecessary. Thanks! Bill. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 18:20:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980105234406.52072600@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 5, 98 11:44:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 796 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/0093e549/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 19:11:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: DECWriter II In-Reply-To: <9801062336.AA11272@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 6, 98 03:36:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1533 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/be668ff6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 18:44:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> from "Peter Prymmer" at Jan 5, 98 08:58:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 918 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/072a172c/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 20:28:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: H-8 Computer needs loving home In-Reply-To: References: <34B28B22.E83C7A90@mlmassoc.com> Message-ID: Argh, how embarassing, sorry about sending that to the list. Guess I'll quite laughing when people do that :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 06:53:51 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1aa2$233a7660$LocalHost@hotze> Oops... well, scratch that. but the Romans DID conquer, the Eqyptians DID kill, the Sumerians did a few things, and the Greeks... well, let's just say that they didn't really mind war. OK? -----Original Message----- From: Wirehead Prime To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:14 AM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > > >> And, as history has proven, it is easy to destroy, as the Romans, >> Egyptians, Sumerians, and Greeks did, but it is so hard to CREATE and >> PRESERVE. That's why we must try to save these things. Eventually, when > >Uhhhhhhh....hmmmmmmm...never mind, it'd be off topic. > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 07:39:38 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Linux???? is it real Message-ID: <01bd1aa8$8957c320$LocalHost@hotze> >>Ummm... RedHat, Caldera, and Debian can all use RPMS. Packages that >> aren't RPMed are usually .tar.gz or .tgz and can be installed by RTFMing. >Thanks, just wondering... :) But when I use the program to manage >all s/w much like the win95's feature, will this kind still work? I don't know about the others, but pre-install Debian has a program that lets you choose filesystem types. There are also options on dselect. (Debian's version of RPM. It's a lot simplier, but still more powerful than NT will be for sometime to come.) Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 06:57:18 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1aa2$9e6b53e0$LocalHost@hotze> Sure. I've seen 486/33DX systems with 4MB of RAM and Windows 3.1 go for around $275. So 386's don't sell for that... but still... and you could sell high-end 486's for much more than that. Heck, AMD even made the X5, a 586 compatible processor for 486/DX4 motherboards that works at 133MHz. Those go for around $500. -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 9:18 AM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > That's TERRIBLE. I mean 486 parts can even get SOLD AS-IS for a decent sum > of money. The whole system goes for a couple hundred. So if they're going > to scrap 'em.... but anyway, lots of schools, non-profit orginazations, etc. > would love to have decent 386's, and 486's would be better. Sure, you can't > play Quake on 'em, but a 386 was designed with 10 years of x86 software in > mind. Yepper! I would beat up that one because of several things also real nice to donate those to schools, etc and including me looking for some parts to fix some other items. AS IS at that price? No way! Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 21:03:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: References: <9801060458.AA24423@forte.com> from "Peter Prymmer" at Jan 5, 98 08:58:16 pm Message-ID: >This is going to annoy certain people, but... > >A few years ago a UK surplus company had a few Emulex SCSI cards for the >Qbus (with the ability to add the extra address lines by plugging in a >TTL chip, which was also supplied), boxed, with user manual, for \pounds >10.00 each (about $15). I bought a couple for myself, and mentioned it >to a friend who was a VAX sysadmin. I then went back and bought their >entire stock (12 more cards IIRC). They were then passed on to people who >were seriously using MicroVAXen... > >I still have my 2 cards, but I'm not selling them yet. > >> Peter Prymmer > >-tony You Sir, are a cruel and heartless man! I would love to have SCSI for my system, so I could get it up and running, but can't afford a few hundred dollars for the controller. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wpe at interserv.com Tue Jan 6 21:12:22 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: DECWriter II References: Message-ID: <34B2F295.A162921D@interserv.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing > > > bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security > > > camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I > > > couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I > > > miss? > > > > A nice hardcopy terminal, apparently with a stand. > > Nice? I personally don't care for the things... > > It's a 7 pin dot matrix printer with all the electronics in the stand (2 > main boards - PSU/motor drivers/head drivers and control logic. I suppose > it's useable, but I'll keep my KSR43 and DECwriter 100, thanks... > > There's an interesting design 'feature' in the LA36 (DECwriter 2). > There's no carriage end-stop switch. What happens is that the carriage > hits the end stop, stalls the motor, and no pulses come from the shaft > encoder on the motor. The control logic detects this and switches off the > motor. > > Now, what tends to happen is the plastic keyway in the carriage belt > sprocket fails. The control logic returns the head to the LHS, but the > motor keeps turning, slipping in the sprocket. It keeps on running into a > much heavier load than normal, until the motor overheats, the insulation > burns off, and the fuse fails. > > I had one where the carriage motor drew 4A with no load (it's normally << > 1A). I had to rewind the motor - one afternoon of my time was a lot less > than what DEC charged for a new motor! I think I still have that motor > somewhere... > > > > > Tim. > > > > -tony FWIW, I remember the LA-36.... We used the LA-120 (the next generation?) as our "standard" console in our datacenter (DECsysten-10's, DECsystem-20's, VAXen).. I used to HATE the LA-100's that used to ship with the vaxen as factory supplied console terminals. I remember after one certain VAX was installed, I asked my supervisor if I should swap out the LA-100 with a spare LA-120. Words to the effect were "why?"... I stated that I felt that the thing would last about a week... "Nawh, leave it, It'll be fine" (rough quote)... Well, two nights later, the third shift operator came in, just as I was getting ready to leave. In his zeal to strip a line printer, he managed to "hip check" the LA-100 that was sitting on a wooden box (actually a support we used to elevate the LA-120 consoles so we could comfortably use them in a standing position) that was serving as it's stand. The resulting impact with the floor, immediately rendered the LA-100, for all intents, and purposes, useless. I don't know if, now, VAXen tend to crash when their console terminal "goes south" for any length of time, but, back then (days of VMS 4.), after about two minutes or so, you had a hung system... Never moved a LA-120 so fast in my life... Oh, my boss heard what happened. When asked "when they fix th' 100, you want me to swap it back?", the answer was a brief "Nope!". I actually have one of those "evil" LA-100's.. Glad I overcame my dislike for th' thing.. Will . From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 21:19:56 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980106221930.006c1c9c@netpath.net> At 03:57 PM 1/6/98 +0300, you wrote: >586 compatible processor for 486/DX4 motherboards that works at 133MHz. >Those go for around $500. I had one of those. Had it overclocked to 160mhz, beat the pants of a P100. I think I paid $150 for the board and chip about a year and a half ago. I wonder what that'll look like next to the systems 10 years from now? -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 6 21:58:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: colorizing is evil References: <3.0.32.19980106053519.0068ab80@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34B2FD60.B65BCAFC@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > For the longest time, when I was very young, I thought those movies were > made in black and white because everything WAS black and white. Crazy, huh? > > At 01:38 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: > > >I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what > >colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality. Not seeing it on a color set until age 15 or 16 (call it 1971), I never understood the significance of "The Wizard of OZ" (which scared the crap out of me as a kid, that nonsense about parents tragging their brats out of "Return to OZ" in '85 because of the seeing a kid threatened with electroshock left those kids with an expectation of something horrible about to happen that their parents denied the resolution of -- hopefully, those kids have since seen it on TV and resolved the trauma their parents gave them, it's a lot less scary than the first sound [and color] OZ movie). OBclassic, in "Return to OZ (more than ten years ago) we did have an AI. Mechanical, reminded of my long-lost DigiComp One that I could never quite interface to my Mr. Machine. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 6 22:02:03 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: DECWriter II Message-ID: <199801070402.AA09734@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34B30547.9E7F987B@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The same set of books describes the train descriptor system used on the > London Underground. It consisted of a drum with 4 rows of pins on it. > Each pin could be in or out. The drum rotated past a 'write' device that > set the pins to one of 16 states corresponding to 16 different types of > trains. A 'read' device consisting of contacts/switches rotated inside > the drum, detecting the postitions of the pins in a given column. It was > an electromechanical version of the classic circular buffer with read and > write pointers... If anyone's in London and wants to see this device, > there's one in the London Transport Museum, BTW. An excuse to visit England at last. (Wales, Scotland and Ireland have been my only reason to consider crossing the Atlantic -- the "roots" gig -- haven't done it yet anyway.) I know damned well there's nothing like that over in the New York Subway Museum in Brooklyn. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From weese at mind.net Tue Jan 6 22:39:37 1998 From: weese at mind.net (Lynn & Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Visicalc -- NOT -- I beg your pardon Message-ID: <199801070454.UAA10641@one.mind.net> Apologies to all. On 1/3/98 at 12:05pm I attempted to send a private note to Ward Donald Griffiths III, concerning his signature...... but it was posted publicly instead. It was an accident. I believe that any group needs to limit the discussion pretty strictly to the stated topic only, as I've seen how it can get too far afield on other groups. For the record, I hit the "reply to author" button, & it replied to everybody. I'll try my best to be more careful in the future. Most of the people in the group simply ignored it, possibly the most appropriate thing to do. About six (not many out of 200 total) reminded me that the subject was classic computers, with varying degrees of civility -- nuff sed. The absolute standout First Prize response was from Uncle Roger, with such a bizzare comment that I am left speechless -- thanx Unc -- I will be driving down to SF when you least expect it, & deliver your new big heavy bible up side yo head. Just kidding. ---mikey From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 6 22:58:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> At 05:46 PM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >>It's recycling. Don't get pissed off. Look at it as an opportunity. They're in business to make money; they don't care about preserving history or any goody-two-shoes thing like that. So offer 'em 5 cents/pound more than the melters if you get first crack at older systems. And, contrary to what the media seems to think, continued used is actually better than recycling something. (Which is why I drive a 38 year old car rather than a brand new, *recyclable* one that doesn't get any better gas mileage.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 6 23:22:13 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Software Piracy [again] and In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980104141440.009be810@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote: > [[Oh, John: I found a monitor for my DVI -- an Apple III mono monitor I > saved from a thrift store that a child was coloring on (yes, with crayons > -- I still haven't gotten all the wax out of the anti-glare screen) but I > still don't have a Tandy 200 boot disk for it yet... Sigh]] Use a citrus-based spray cleaner on this (I use a product called "Touch of Orange" that I bought from a Home&Garden show). It literally melts oil-based substances right off the srufaces while leaving the object un-marred in any way, and as a bonus leaves a nice orange scent in the air. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 23:29:12 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS Message-ID: I've gotten back to looking into getting the my VAXstation up and running. This has gotten me to thinking, how many MIPS is a VUP? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 6 23:41:19 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Update: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Well, I've now exchanged four messages with her, and it's obvious that she's the dealer. In the third message she was wondering how she could sell old computers, so I gave her some advice, including to find out what the average price seems to be, and to undercut it otherwise she'll find herself sitting on useless stock :^) Tonites message was asking me if I was intending to collect legacy mainframes and mini's. Talk about a jump, such things hadn't even been mentioned, the closest thing on my webpage is a VAXstation. It's enough to make me glad I've been more or less polite instead of flaming her! Needless to say I sent her a message tonite letting her know that I'm interested, and if it's something I don't want (probably due to where it is) that I'd pass the information onto people that will be interested. Who knows what started out as an insult, might turn out to be an interesting source. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 6 23:50:56 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Update: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980107004457.006f1af8@netpath.net> Where is she located exactly? At 09:41 PM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >Needless to say I sent her a message tonite letting her know that I'm >interested, and if it's something I don't want (probably due to where it >is) that I'd pass the information onto people that will be interested. > >Who knows what started out as an insult, might turn out to be an >interesting source. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jan 6 23:56:17 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Looking for info In-Reply-To: "David Williams"'s message of Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:07:27 +0000 References: <5780c90.34aad61e@aol.com> <199801031904.NAA01177@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: <199801070556.VAA14166@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "David Williams" wrote: > Also, anything on a DS200MC terminal server? Assuming you mean a DECserver 200/MC, I was using these in 1988, so I'd guess that they're acceptable for discussion on this list, or will be soon enough. As you wrote, it's a terminal server. Eight RS-232 ports with enough modem control to support most asynchronous communications needs, and an Ethernet port for connection to your LAN. As I recall there is enough firmware in the thing to request an executable image via DEC's MOP protocol, pick one responding host to download it from, and once that image is downloaded (via MOP) and running, to do terminal and printer service via DEC's LAT protocol. They do not do TCP/IP-suite protocols, though later models of DECserver may. Hence you can plug terminals, modems, printers, or computers into the RS-232 ports, and set them up so that either they connect to other computers via LAT, or so that other computers (or other terminal server ports) can connect via LAT to "services" associated with the ports. Generally speaking, they're not real useful outside DEC environments, but are very useful there. -Frank McConnell From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 00:07:52 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: I've got a line on a Tektronix 6132 workstations, and I'm wondering what exactly it is. According to the current owner it runs Berkeley UNIX ver 4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet unused for the last 8 years, so who knows if it's working. He also referred to it as a UTek workstation. I didn't even know Tek made any computers, and web searches bring up zilch. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 00:10:19 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Update: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980107004457.006f1af8@netpath.net> Message-ID: >Where is she located exactly? This I'm hoping to find out in the next message, if I don't, and if she does in fact have some interesting systems for sale, you can bet that will be my first question :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 7 00:18:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Visicalc -- NOT -- I beg your pardon In-Reply-To: <199801070454.UAA10641@one.mind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Lynn & Mike wrote: > On 1/3/98 at 12:05pm I attempted to send a private note to > Ward Donald Griffiths III, concerning his signature...... > but it was posted publicly instead. > > It was an accident. I believe that any group needs to limit > the discussion pretty strictly to the stated topic only, as > I've seen how it can get too far afield on other groups. The ironic thing about a message like this is that it perpetuates the off-topic noise. For those who commit this transgression in the future, please keep this in mind: assume that most of us understand (as we have all invariably done it) and we accept your assumed subsequent apology in advance, and leave it at that. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 7 00:20:37 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com's message of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:12:45 -0500 References: <199801061512.AA10757@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801070620.WAA15101@daemonweed.reanimators.org> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) writes: > Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the > 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of > preservation. It occurs to me that 100-200 years ago we did not have certain modern conveniences, like the heavy tractors with big metal spiky rollers and/or wheels that I've seen in use at landfills. I'd guess the object is to flatten the refuse layer out by crushing it. -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 7 00:36:12 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: Tony Duell's message of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:53:50 +0000 (GMT) References: Message-ID: <199801070636.WAA15431@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Tony Duell wrote: > In fact what's really holding me back is that I don't have a > specification of the CS/80 or amigo command sets (the commands that HP > used for their drives, and which are sort-of a de-facto standard). If > anyone has this spec, I'll consider building this interface. Well, Tony, once upon a time I think I was thinking about sending you some chunks of the 7941/7945 service manual that describe some portion of the CS/80 protocol used by those devices. I vaguely recall it was enough of a subset that we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't help, but if you still think it would be useful send me your postal address and I will make a trip to the copy shop. Also it is my understanding that the "hp300" flavors of NetBSD and OpenBSD contain working code to talk to CS/80 devices. It may be in the 4.4-Lite BSD release, I think that is where I remember seeing it first. The CS/80 command-set reference is one of those manuals that HP Direct refused to sell me. I had the part number, and the HP Direct folks told me that it had been withdrawn from offer. Maybe I should give that another shot; it's been some years ago now. ... More vague memories: not all HP-IB discs talk CS/80. There was also a "subset" or "simple" protocol, SS/80. Was that "Amigo"? I can't remember. I think it is the protocol used by the 91xx discs, and those are what the Integral seems to recognize. -Frank McConnell From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 7 00:50:53 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: PCjr Lotus carts A and B In-Reply-To: <01bd180b$61089060$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> from "Bill Girnius" at Jan 2, 98 11:49:38 pm Message-ID: <199801070650.BAA00757@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Girnius once stated: > > Hey guess what, very odd. If you have the cart's in and you boot to a normal > plain old DOS disk, just type 123 and it Loads!! YES! Don't know how the > heck it does it, but it does work. The cartridges for the IBM PCjr can contain either a standalone program, BIOS extentions, MS-DOS programs or tokenized BASIC programs. Each cartrige can contain upto 64K of ROM (typically 32K by 8) so there is 128K of memory space addressable through the cartridges, at address D0000 - EFFFF. The format for a stand alone or BIOS extention cartridge is: offset contents 0 $55 1 $AA 2 length of cartridge / 512 3 - 5 JMP to init code (called via far call) 6 $00 ... data last 2 locations CRC The format for the MS-DOS command cartridges 0 $55 1 $AA 2 length 3 - 5 JMP to init code 6 length of command name 7 ... n command n , n+1 16b offset to routine when 'name' is typed n+2 length of next command ($00 if end of table) n+3 , n+4 16b offset to routine ... data last 2 locations CRC The format for tokenized BASIC program cartridge (cartridge chip selects must address $D0000 as the BASIC cartridge itself is at $E0000) 0 $55 1 $AA 2 length 3 $CB 4 $AA 5 $55 6 $00 7 $FF if unprotected BASIC program $FE if protected 8 start of tokenized BASIC code n $FF padding to next 2048 byte boundary last 2 addresses CRC My feeling is that the code for the MS-DOS cartridges are run directly out of ROM, but that's all the information I have about the IBM PCjr cartridges (from the IBM PCjr Technical reference manual, 2-107 through 2-118) -spc (Thought it was a neat idea then, still does now ... ) From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Wed Jan 7 02:17:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: A Couple Acquisitions: Paper Tape & Bernoulli Drive In-Reply-To: <199801070650.BAA00757@armigeron.com> Message-ID: I was at the Rockwell Surplus outlet in Cedar Rapids today (Tuesday) and picked up a paper tape reader/punch that connects via RS-232. Highly nifty! Only $10! I'll have a closer look at it tomorrow. I also picked up a Bernoulli box (that takes the 8" cartridges) and some cartridges and can't recall who had the cartridges they were offering to a good home. If whoever you are reads this, please send me an email. That was $10 as well. I'll post more details about the paper tape machine later. I was just blown away by it. It appears to be in excellent shape. So now I can convert paper tapes for folks who don't have a reader or punch paper tapes for those who don't have a punch. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: Also acquired the money tonight to rent the truck for the PDP-8/I retrieval mission. It will be Saturday so I should have lots of cool descriptions next week! From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 22:08:48 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <01bd1b21$f508b060$LocalHost@hotze> Yes, actually, there are a couple of companies that do that. (Only recycle computers) They take PC's or Macs. They're currently mostly only used by corporate managers trying to find a green way to get rid of their Windows 3.1 machines, but they get paid a little in return. They're trying to become more home-orginized, but the word needs to get out. They report that 2% of the weight of a 3 year old computer is dust!!! As for what happens with landfills, I've heard that studies show that it's the plastic. (I'd guess that it like forms a bubble covering the newspapers, etc. blocking out all air, etc.) That would make it near-perfect preservation, even into tripple or, even quad digit numbers. Near the bottom, there's more air. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:16 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** >> > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your >> > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting! > >Yes, that was completely tactless on their part. Maybe if they collect >something like Hummels, perhaps you should have offered to grind them up >to make spackle. > >> > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd >> > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably >> > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a >> > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away >> > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them >> > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice.... > >I agree here, and for the most part, the majority of computers end up >being recycled, either in the U.S. or abroad. > >I have nothing against the scrappers, other than those that flat out >refuse to deal with the collectors. It is VERY efficient (something like >98% by mass get recycled now - CRTs and some photocopier parts are the >only stumbling blocks), and frankly, one can make a good living at it. >What one can not make a good living at is refurbishing them - they just >get devalued too fast. > >Lets face it, we can not save it all. True, we should try to get the >goodies into the collector's hands so they survive. Often in makes more >sense to try to resell a system than to scrap it (like the TT030). For the >most part, however, computers (and other electronics) probably should be >scrapped. For example, one place I deal with in Kansas City (and now >Chicago) has a roomful of IBM Series/1 minicomputers all humming away. >Eventually, they will get decommissioned. If I were a scrapper and won the >bid for them (sometimes the bid just means picking them up!), I would keep >one for myself, one sripped down for spares, and offer any others to >members on the list (or the collecting community in general). If those >latter ones do not move, they would get scrapped. This applies to just >about anything, PeeCees, VT100s, ES/9000s, C64s, etc. - with the exception >of the special machines (_old_ machines, prototypes, high demand >collectables, etc.). Obviously, the day I scrap a S/360 will never come. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 6 22:14:07 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** CD-Decomposition Message-ID: <01bd1b22$b26d7dc0$LocalHost@hotze> What did you expect? I mean, it was in the lake, with moving water all around it, fish, plants, and lord knows what else brushing aginst it, and so forht. The perfect form of data preservation is probably punched tape, or, ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent. -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 8:15 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe this **** > At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: > > >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them... > >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better. > > What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer > capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average > conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration? Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened! The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it again, it's ruined. Jason D. > > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > > > From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 7 04:23:30 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** CD-Decomposition Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980107052322.006c1e80@netpath.net> At 07:14 AM 1/7/98 +0300, you wrote: >ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that >read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course >that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent. How about something in a cartridge format? Alot of Video game carts these days are topping 8mb. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 7 04:34:57 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <9800078841.AA884198448@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > What happened? Water get through a scratch and the aluminum started > corroding? Never dropped one in a lake, but my Warcraft II cd took a dip > in the toilet one day. I'm still wondering how it got on top of the toilet > in the first place... I think there are plenty of mechanisms, not all well understood. Example: Thermal cycling (repeated warming and cooling) causes mechanical stresses. These grow microscopic cracks at imperfections / scratches / impurities in the plastic until there is a path for corroding chemicals (like water) to get in at the aluminium. Some CDs now use a gold layer instead of an aluminium one. I don't know how much longer these last. The above mechanism can be combated by keeping the discs in a temperature-controlled environment (a lake I would have thought would not be too bad for that but obviously it was...) - but mechanical stresses still occur when spinning up and down. Just my 2d worth. Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 7 06:57:48 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:07 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <199801071257.AA26198@world.std.com> In a message dated 98-01-07 02:11:50 EST, you write: << I also picked up a Bernoulli box (that takes the 8" cartridges) and some cartridges and can't recall who had the cartridges they were offering to a good home. If whoever you are reads this, please send me an email. That was $10 as well. >> Ah, that was me. I have 45 of the little beggers. Willing to let them go for cost of shipping + soda money. Let me know how many you want. Kelly KFergason@aol.com From william at ans.net Wed Jan 7 08:38:16 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Big "B", update In-Reply-To: <199801070115.UAA16185@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: > There is an awesome B205 page at the University of Virginia, plus > a pretty cool B5000 page nearby. Here's the URL: > > http://www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/images/manuals Be warned - the pages contain some mighty large images! Skip using the classic modems for this one, guys, better have at least a T1. > It looks like they scanned in the original manuals for these beasties, > instead of just retyping them. Seeing the originals really adds to > the presentation, IMHO. And the B205 was _so_ cool - magnetic drum > as main memory! Those were the days. I still have no idea what the machine(s) is that I am inquiring about. I would really doubt it would be a super goodie like a B205 or B5000, but sometimes these oldies show up (like the IBM 7094 I recently missed, or the LINC that has just been found). William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 09:37:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: <199801071257.AA26198@world.std.com> Message-ID: ><4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet >< > >Look inside it may be a DEC PDP-11 series machine in differnt garb. > >Allison Ack, don't get my hopes up! Sounds like I'll have to arrange to pick this beast up sooner than expected :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 7 10:59:30 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <9800078842.AA884221478@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>>><4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet >>>>< >>> >>Look inside it may be a DEC PDP-11 series machine in differnt garb. >> >>Allison > >Ack, don't get my hopes up! Sounds like I'll have to arrange to pick this >beast up sooner than expected :^) Um. I'm not familiar with the Tek 6000 series at all, although the description "Workstation" makes me suspect that it's not a PDP. (That is purely a guess - I shall be happy to be proven wrong) In the late 1970s and early '80s Tek made the 4050 series. These were almost workstations - personal machines built around a vector storage CRT. The 4051 (earliest) seems to have used a 6800 micro as its CPU. This was replaced in the 4052 and 4054 by a bitslice machine which appeared to be a 25 MHz 6800-alike with some extra instructions. Fun machines. I have a 4052, BTW. Recent web searches, researching a talk I was giving on these machines, did indeed bring up practically nothing - all I discovered was that the Dutch computer museum also has a 4052, Hans Pufal's list mentions them, and that a company I had once met in a quite different context started life making software for these machines. Otherwise, no results from any search engine I tried. (The Tektronix site has narry a mention) So, when you do get hold of this, please tell us all about it. Philip. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 7 13:32:57 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Visicalc -- NOT -- I beg your pardon Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980107112837.4d075fa4@ricochet.net> At 08:39 PM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >The absolute >standout First Prize response was from Uncle Roger, with such >a bizzare comment that I am left speechless -- thanx Unc -- I Woohoo! I won! Yippee! What do I get? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From engine at chac.org Wed Jan 7 13:56:48 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980107115648.01119440@pop.batnet.com> At 22:58 1/6/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >And, contrary to what the media seems to think, continued used is actually >better than recycling something. (Which is why I drive a 38 year old car >rather than a brand new, *recyclable* one.... That isn't a car. It's an armored personnel carrier. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 09:25:59 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980107112837.4d075fa4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801072021.PAA19385@mail.cgocable.net> Hi all, BOY! I nearly bought the door stop for bad deal! As a prudent protection, I insisted on opening the old box, I found only stock configuration: 60mb hd, 2mb ram. Not 80mb and 4mb as previously stated by the store owner. Easy as pie to open it. :) And, to add to this, I wished that has late model using type 2 motherboard, this one uses type 1 motherboard, it's huge and loaded with PAL's, little ones, medium ones and rare large chipsets. I suspect the battery is dead because seller says it's configuration error "162" I know the basic codes pretty well. Which is preferable: Hock the offer to half of that $40 as agreed on to "whip" for being liar? I can't see him bec he's away for his doc appt til Friday. What I was lusting at owning a piece of a PS/2 machine for years but I would love to find a PS/2 motherboard -Axx series for a expensive song or with a 486 platform attached -oooh. If anyone could suggest or know of one that does have suitable hi performance older PS/2 alterative to this one would be nice. To anyone on this list, Wish list for model 70: -Type 3 motherboard -SCSI MCA controller adapter (I've a fast scsi II 540mb hd) -Ethernet card selectable BNC/10base2 TP. -P70 or P75. This nice P75 has SCSI as standard (cooler!) and known to be upgraded to either DX2 or DX4 (hurrah) with voltage adapter but it requires fancy footwork in soldering work either way. And I do like the plasma display due to my vision. I'm curious have anyone ever beaten the "16mb" limit on these series? Side note for other interests to other collectors while I was there, saw Zenith LP series with 286 daughterboard (can be upgrade to 386sx 16 and it has own copro socket). One Mac IIcx - what good about this one? I used to work on similar configuration of that model when I was at college doing homework. Comments please. Thanks and keep your aluminum platters spinning! Jason D. PS: When I was at a high school using their 30's also as tech assistent taking care bunch of large sites loaded with older models. PS/2 machines ranging from 25/30, 50, 55SX (perfect machine but would be even better machine if IBM soldered in an 25mhz cpu there), 50/50Z 70, and 80. That was about 3 years during summer beginning '89 or '90. This is where I started to like these PS/2 for it's good memories so I wished to have one as fun machine. :) From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 7 15:18:51 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Could someone please help this guy out? Message-ID: Can someone please help this man? Please send your replies to: COCarlson@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:13:00 EST From: COCarlson To: vcf@siconic.com Subject: help I need a command interpreter (command.com?) for a Kaypro XT. I had backed up the files and was then removing files in preparation for giving this computer to a grandchild. I accidentally deleted the system files. I have them backed up, but I can't get to the "restore" option until I can boot the computer. Actually, a Low density "system" diskette would be great. COCarlson@aol.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 7 15:56:39 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980106221930.006c1c9c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <13322397770.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Overclocking] I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... ------- From KFergason at aol.com Wed Jan 7 16:14:19 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write: << I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... >> A friend of mine once told me that they used to replace the 1mhz? crystal on Kim-1 boards with an 8mhz crystal. Man, that 6502 was real fast for a while. :-) From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 16:27:12 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <67dd18fc.34b40142@aol.com> How fast did it run? In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write: << [Overclocking] I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... ------- >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 16:26:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 6, 98 09:29:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/2602c6b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 16:35:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <199801070636.WAA15431@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jan 6, 98 10:36:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1785 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/c6b48c7d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 16:57:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: <9800078842.AA884221478@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 7, 98 04:59:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980107/1f5af15d/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 7 17:32:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801072332.AA19900@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801072341.SAA02361@mail.cgocable.net> Hi everyone! > > > I find this a good story. ;-) The fastest 8088 ever made was 10mhz if > you squint it may hit 12. As far as putting a 386 in a 8088 > socket...there is the matter of the 100 or so extra pins. Hehe, that would make it into dumbest jokes tv commerical. :) Allison, and everyone, there were 12mhz 8088 cpu plugged into little mini xt motherboards. And crappy quality 2 layer to boot too. :( I prefer 4 or more layers. Jason D. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 7 17:58:14 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <67dd18fc.34b40142@aol.com> Message-ID: <13322419902.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [How fast did it run?] It DIDN'T! :) ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 7 18:02:46 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <199801072332.AA19900@world.std.com> Message-ID: <13322420727.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I didn't put the 386 in the XT socket. I just pulled the clock xtal from the 386 and put in in the XT. It wasn't a real IBM PC, it was a clone. ------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 7 18:30:23 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <79eb2727.34b41e20@aol.com> uh, right! and would you mind telling the audience how you crammed a square 386 chip into the xt's dip socket??? In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write: << [Overclocking] I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire... Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386 and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start emitting black smoke. This was before I knew they were useful... ------- >> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 7 18:22:21 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <70549624.34b41c40@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-07 15:26:19 EST, you write: << One Mac IIcx - what good about this one? I used to work on similar configuration of that model when I was at college doing homework. Comments please. >> I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have not been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card which is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for it, but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the cx is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which is 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a special dongle. RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i bought from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg, 200 400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own. david. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 7 20:44:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: References: <199801070636.WAA15431@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980107204402.4777cf22@intellistar.net> > >> More vague memories: not all HP-IB discs talk CS/80. There was also >> a "subset" or "simple" protocol, SS/80. Was that "Amigo"? I can't > Yes, I'm certain that it was. I have to get my references out and send to you Tony. >I think so. It's mentioned in passing in the HP150 techref (which I have) >with no real details... > >> remember. I think it is the protocol used by the 91xx discs, and >> those are what the Integral seems to recognize. Right again. > >Indeed. It's what a lot of smaller HP's seem to use. Does anyone know if >it is a 'subset' of CS/80 or something entirely different? SS//80 is a suset of CS/80. I think Amiga was an early version. Again, I must check my references to be sure. I will do that tomorrow. > >> >> -Frank McConnell >> >> > >-tony > > Joe From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 18:47:47 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <5caeaa37.34b42234@aol.com> I like the IIcis. They're cute little things. Pretty fast, too. The only problem, and I'm wondering if anyone could help me, is this. My experience with them was in a Macintosh Lab at a school. They have been used there for ~7 years. They have two problems. One is that the monitors power up intermittently, probably due to the transformer. Ideas? The other is the disk drives. They were all blown out with compressed air, but still didn't start working correctly. Ideas? > a better deal would be the IIci model which is > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > special dongle. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 7 19:10:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** Message-ID: <199801080110.AA09628@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980107210906.46b7b5fa@intellistar.net> was: Re: I don't believe this **** SHOULD BE First Liar doesn't have a chance! At 06:32 PM 1/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >I find this a good story. ;-) The fastest 8088 ever made was 10mhz if >you squint it may hit 12. As far as putting a 386 in a 8088 >socket...there is the matter of the 100 or so extra pins. > >Oh, if the 25 mhz clock was input to the 8284A then the cpu clock would >be 8.333mhz... almost believable save for the rest of the logic on the xt >board would not generally run that fast without adding waitstates. > >Allison > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 14:20:41 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <70549624.34b41c40@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801080116.UAA24786@mail.cgocable.net> Hi! > I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have not > been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card which > is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for it, > but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the cx > is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which is > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > special dongle. I noticed after I surfed the net, and I do remember it had no video card. BUMMER! If it was IIci, I would grab it. > RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i bought > from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg, 200 > 400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength > machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own. David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what about this? :) My book does not list this Model 77. Jason D. > david. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 14:20:41 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:08 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] In-Reply-To: <5caeaa37.34b42234@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801080116.UAA24791@mail.cgocable.net> Hi! Snip! Problems at "lab"? This is very labour heavy work and expensive if you're managing them at that lab. Pull the floppy drives, take the ejector framework with floppy guides, clean them free of gunk and oil lightly with very heavy weight oil, oil lightly on that ejector motor. Clean the heads with alcohol, brush out the gut of the floppy, clean the seating surface where the matal part of floppy rests on it and floppy guides, posts, dirt/grime get carried to there by those fingers. Monitors, have them serviced by monitor depot and have capacitors changed out, soldering work and I would personally prefer to rebuild those power supplies out of these IIci's. Capacitors are cheap, about 10 to 20 dollars for each PSU. About the same for monitors. This will help lot. Otherwise, replace them with newer Mac clones. Cheaper in long run and less headache especially if they're at school lab still used? Also these clones uses regular 15pin monitors that was used for PC's. Sorry if you meant that you gotten some IIci's from there? > > a better deal would be the IIci model which is > > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > > special dongle. I agree. I just finished looking at the info as provided by apple's site. So I will leave this IIcx alone. I thought of putting linux on that when linux version get to full version release for that 68k type. Jason D. From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Wed Jan 7 19:50:40 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Anyone help this fellow? Message-ID: <34bc30a0.1296854818@mail.wizards.net> Found on Usenet. Please respond directly to him if you can help. -=-=- -=-=- Path: Supernews70!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: Dale Toney Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 Subject: Looking for a PDP-11 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:07:10 -0500 Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <34B3E06E.2120EDF9@blueridge.net> Reply-To: dale@blueridge.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 15767@205.152.121.8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Xref: Supernews70 vmsnet.pdp-11:9088 Hi, I am in North Carolina and looking for a used pdp-11 to buy. I broke my teeth in on pdp-11's and vax/vms, and would like to find one to tinker with. Any help in locating one would be appreciated. thanks, -- Dale mailto:dale@blueridge.net -=-=- -=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin2 {at} wiz d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 19:44:30 1998 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <2f08bbc6.34b42f81@aol.com> Well, we have 10 IIcis, 10 Powermac 5400/180s (slow as molasses) 1 clone, 2 quadras. They are all used, the IIcis are limited in usefullness, because of the lack of FDD functionality In a message dated 98-01-07 20:18:49 EST, you write: << This will help lot. Otherwise, replace them with newer Mac clones. Cheaper in long run and less headache especially if they're at school lab still used? Also these clones uses regular 15pin monitors that was used for PC's. >> From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 19:51:36 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: References: <9800078842.AA884221478@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 7, 98 04:59:30 pm Message-ID: >I've seen a few Tektronix workstations, and they seem to be based (in >general) on 68k CPUs, often the 68020. It took some _SERIOUS_ manipulating of the web engines today during lunch, but I finally found something out. It seems there were three distinct 'families' running Tektronix UTek (UNIX). The first, which it sounds like I'll be getting, had a rather obscure processor I've heard of before, something like a '32k'. The second family is what you're talking about, and the third used the 88k processors (about 1989), and was supposed to be quite nice. Can't wait to get it, hopefully it's got some doc's, because there is nothing on the net. Only one "Collection" web page mentions anything close. Apparently he spent part of his lunch checking out my web page, because I got a message he sent from work offering me an IBM XT and a ancient Compaq. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 20:00:46 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Updated: Update: I don't believe... In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Rat's turns out she apparently isn't a dealer, and doesn't have any mini's or main's :^( Sounds like she's interested in getting one though. Somehow I doubt she's interested in preserving it, more likely realizes it will fetch a higher price with the scrap dealers >:^( What a waste of my time that's been, sometimes I think I'm too nice for my own good. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 19:56:06 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980107115648.01119440@pop.batnet.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19980106205609.4c0762d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >At 22:58 1/6/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >>And, contrary to what the media seems to think, continued used is actually >>better than recycling something. (Which is why I drive a 38 year old car >>rather than a brand new, *recyclable* one.... > >That isn't a car. It's an armored personnel carrier. > >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org Yeh, but those old cars, or in my case, old Pickups can hold a lot more computers than the new ones :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wpe at interserv.com Wed Jan 7 20:14:20 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** References: <3.0.32.19980106221930.006c1c9c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34B4367B.C669DB8A@interserv.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > At 03:57 PM 1/6/98 +0300, you wrote: > > >586 compatible processor for 486/DX4 motherboards that works at 133MHz. > >Those go for around $500. > > I had one of those. Had it overclocked to 160mhz, beat the pants of a P100. > I think I paid $150 for the board and chip about a year and a half ago. I > wonder what that'll look like next to the systems 10 years from now? > > -John Higginbotham- > -limbo.netpath.net- Hmmmm... I bought a Cyrix 586 processor, plus motherboard (133 Mhz) 'bout a year and a half ago, and paid US 125$ at a computer show in Marlboro Ma. It's what I currently am using... Sorry this is kinda' off topic.... Will From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 15:24:58 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] In-Reply-To: <2f08bbc6.34b42f81@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801080220.VAA10288@mail.cgocable.net> > Well, we have 10 IIcis, 10 Powermac 5400/180s (slow as molasses) 1 clone, 2 > quadras. They are all used, the IIcis are limited in usefullness, because of > the lack of FDD functionality Hi Zeus334, What exactly is the problem with your old IIci's especially this FDD? R/W problems or eject problems? etc? Oh, does my suggestions were helpful so far? Those old 1.44 drives are HIGH ticket because of it's demand for older machines and Apple have a horrible policy. Reason for this high price and hard to find spare ones: 1. Apple grants authoriztion to repair depots and tells them to always send broken stuff no matter what and they get discount on other available replacement parts. For broken parts their policy is grind 'em up. And ratio between apples and PC's are about 1:10. So, combined with this, rare unwanted parts and junk, demand from remaining users who still use theirs drive prices up. 2. so few places operate unauthorized reseller or repairs for apples. I was scared stiff when I found 1.44 drives for older ones cost over 100 each even it's used! What do you think of one mac clone you have in your lab? Jason D. > In a message dated 98-01-07 20:18:49 EST, you write: > > << This will help lot. Otherwise, replace them with newer Mac clones. > Cheaper in long run and less headache especially if they're at > school lab still used? Also these clones uses regular 15pin monitors > that was used for PC's. > >> > > From william at ans.net Wed Jan 7 20:32:52 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Updated: Update: I don't believe... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Rat's turns out she apparently isn't a dealer, and doesn't have any mini's > or main's :^( Sounds like she's interested in getting one though. Somehow > I doubt she's interested in preserving it, more likely realizes it will > fetch a higher price with the scrap dealers >:^( It might be a good idea to keep her business in the back of your mind, and perhaps bother her every so often (after all, she bothered you). If she ever gets any 20+ year old mainframes, I think a few of us would probably give her scrap value for it (a small S/360 is worth several hundred dollars, and it would be immediate cash - no labor to rip it apart!). Speaking of mainframes, I might have a pair of eyes to check out the Burroughs stuff in a week or so! William Donzelli william@ans.net From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jan 6 16:22:22 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Frank Knows his stuff was Re: What is this H Message-ID: <199801080300.TAA24808@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Qedit > is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS. Yeah, but they want something like $90 for it! I found another, that's free (even has spell check). Will send to anyone on request. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jan 6 16:15:51 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <199801080300.TAA02286@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > > MFM (early 80's?) > > Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. > > > RLL (late 80's?) > > I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is different. RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example. Actually, some (if not all) IDE's use variations of RLL encoding. From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Wed Jan 7 21:29:07 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980108142907.007b25d0@isd.canberra.edu.au> At 17:15 6/01/98 -0500, PG Manney wrote: >> > MFM (early 80's?) >> >> Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. >> >> > RLL (late 80's?) >> >> I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) > >Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is >different. > >RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards >temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example. The problem, however, as I understand it, wasn't the ST-506/412 interface itself, it was the fact that most of the drives that used this interface used stepper motors to move the R/W heads. The high-end voice-coil drives that used the ST-506/412 interface were *far* more reliable, and usually didn't have any problems using RLL encoding. Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| |Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | | University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| | scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 7 17:01:43 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980108142907.007b25d0@isd.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <199801080357.WAA02270@mail.cgocable.net> > At 17:15 6/01/98 -0500, PG Manney wrote: > > >> > MFM (early 80's?) > >> > >> Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. > >> > >> > RLL (late 80's?) > >> > >> I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) > > > >Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is > >different. > > > >RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards > >temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example. > > The problem, however, as I understand it, wasn't the ST-506/412 interface > itself, it was the fact that most of the drives that used this interface > used stepper motors to move the R/W heads. The high-end voice-coil drives > that used the > ST-506/412 interface were *far* more reliable, and usually didn't have any > problems using RLL encoding. Based on my experience... 95% true, but using RLL on stepper is fine but the main problem was when the maker produced drives to work with RLL used faster stepper design (makers tends to pack with lastest on next generation and leave the older alone instead of improving it more to pack more info instead of increassing performance which is perferable.) and that also include fast stepper type seeking on MFM drives as well. That's where you see the trouble. Noisy stepper ones tends to wear out than those ones that does quietly and slowly. That is why the slow quiet stepping drives like ST225's lasted so long that platter wore more smoother and got stuck or lasted longer anyway! :) Voice coil is best way to up the performance and pack more info. I can't attach "reliablity" to anything, only maker can do to assure this requires careful design and choosing right ideas and applications, making sure it's not cut on the corners and careful QC in production yields reliablity. Does not need cost like that just careful job and do the job right once. Jason D. > > Regards, > > | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| > |Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | > | University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| > | scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | > > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 7 22:11:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! Functionally are they any different from a standard 64? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From adam at merlin.net.au Tue Jan 6 22:20:01 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <199801080420.OAA02158@arthur.merlin.net.au> >I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see >one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few >months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 >or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! I'm assuming you mean the different case design - over here (South Australia) they seem to be as common as the old breadbox sort, but I suspect that in numbers they are slightly less than the older designs. I have three of them, and I only wanted the one. As far as I know there are no functional changes, although Commodore had a history of working out ways to make systems cheaper, so there may be a difference internally. I did find one old C64 in a third-party case which looked very much like the C64c, though. Interestingly enough it was made here - I would have picked it up, but I shy away from collecting computers based on the different cases, as there are too many to collect just based on the different systems themselves, and space is limited. Adam. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 7 23:10:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS References: Message-ID: <34B45FB8.A1B0669@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I've gotten back to looking into getting the my VAXstation up and running. > > This has gotten me to thinking, how many MIPS is a VUP? > > What's a MIPS, or more particularly, what's an 'Instruction'. > > AFAIK, the VUP was defined by the VAX 11/780 being exactly 1 VUP. Now, > the 11/780 executed about 0.5 million (VAX) instructions per second, but > I've heard it said that because the VAX instruction set was so CISC, a > VAX instruction was worth 2 of anybody elses ;-), so 1 VUP ~= 1 MIPS. With the current battle between RISC and CISC, MIPS now really is "Meaningless Information Provided by Salesman". Technically, by the current philosophy, an 8080 is a CISC processor. Go figure. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jan 7 21:43:28 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <01bd1be7$95288d20$LocalHost@hotze> Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. It's a company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model 55SX as $249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could probably say that you collect classics and that that price is way out of whack, but that might not work.... Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 4:18 AM Subject: Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Hi! > I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have not > been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card which > is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for it, > but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the cx > is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which is > 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a > special dongle. I noticed after I surfed the net, and I do remember it had no video card. BUMMER! If it was IIci, I would grab it. > RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i bought > from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg, 200 > 400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength > machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own. David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what about this? :) My book does not list this Model 77. Jason D. > david. From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Thu Jan 8 03:59:31 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <01bd1c1c$1d68a060$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. It's a >company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is >http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model 55SX as >$249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could probably say that you >collect classics and that that price is way out of whack, but that might not >work.... >Tim D. Hotze I suspect that here in Sydney, Australia the price of PS/2's is about to tumble to insignificance. It seems a lot of corporations bought whole networks of them in the early 90's and they are at the end of their usefulness when they move away from DOS/Win3.1 I have recently seen model 70 boxes advertised for $A30 and actually acquired a model 76 box for $A70, with 8Mb and 200Mb SCSI. (thats about $US20 and $US45) From cgregory at lrbcg.com Thu Jan 8 06:14:51 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <01bd1c2f$055466e0$c627a2ce@cliffgre> I have them all, i.e., 64, 64C, and a 64 in a 64C look alike case. Although not as common as the classic 64, the 64C is not at all rare. I found a complete one with a matching 1541C drive at a thrift the other day for $5. Among the Commodore community the consensus is that although functionally the same, some of the chips in the 64C had been upgraded (if I remember correctly, specificly the sound chips among others), and it is therefore more desirable than the standard 64. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 1:36 AM Subject: Re: C-64c, How common? > >Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1] by LRBCG.COM with smtp > id ABCEAFBJ ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:36:04 -0500 >Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id VAA13060; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:23 -0800 >Received: from mx5.u.washington.edu (mx5.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.6]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id VAA41218 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:20 -0800 >Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) > by mx5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id VAA05257 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:19 -0800 >Received: from navix.net (xyp99p14.ltec.net [205.242.158.24]) > by iac12.navix.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27937 > for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:20:40 -0600 >Message-Id: <33EC0CF9.CA43793D@navix.net> >Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:23:54 -0700 >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Cord Coslor >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Re: C-64c, How common? >References: <199801080420.OAA02158@arthur.merlin.net.au> >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >I have a C64c, although I haven't found them to be very common. This unit may >be for sell as well if anyone is looking for one. Also, I too found a C64 in a >third party case that looked just like the c-64... and it also was made in >Australia. I can get this for anyone that might want this unit as well. Let me >know. > >CORD COSLOR > >adam@merlin.net.au wrote: > >> >I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see >> >one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few >> >months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 >> >or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! >> >> I'm assuming you mean the different case design - over here (South >> Australia) they seem to be as common as the old breadbox sort, but I >> suspect that in numbers they are slightly less than the older designs. I >> have three of them, and I only wanted the one. As far as I know there are >> no functional changes, although Commodore had a history of working out >> ways to make systems cheaper, so there may be a difference internally. >> >> I did find one old C64 in a third-party case which looked very much like >> the C64c, though. Interestingly enough it was made here - I would have >> picked it up, but I shy away from collecting computers based on the >> different cases, as there are too many to collect just based on the >> different systems themselves, and space is limited. >> >> Adam. > > > > From scottk5 at ibm.net Thu Jan 8 09:13:23 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <199801081319.NAA20782@out2.ibm.net> One of the best sources for used parts for PS/2's I've found is Skip Paret in Florida. (skip@bcp.mhs.compuserve.com) His company is Business Computer Products: phone: (voice) 904-760-9300 (fax). Also since I collect PS/2's I have found the newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware to be an excellent source of parts and info. There you will also find that amazing German, Peter Wendt, quite possibly the world's greatest living authority on PS/2's! And there is also quite a stash of them downstairs, mostly Model 25's, 30's. 55's, 50Z's, 70's, and 80's. A lot of the auxiliary parts from model 80's will work on the 70's. so if there is something in particular you need, please let me know. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net On 1998-01-08 Tim said: >Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. >It's a company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is >http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model >55SX as $249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could >probably say that you collect classics and that that price is way >out of whack, but that might not work.... >Tim D. Hotze Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jan 8 07:37:34 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: I don't believe this **** In-Reply-To: <79eb2727.34b41e20@aol.com> Message-ID: <13322569056.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I did this with the clock chip, not the CPU. The CPU wouldn't have fit! ------- From rcini at email.msn.com Thu Jan 8 07:52:59 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? Message-ID: <0e1b44654130818UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> I know that this is a little off-topic, but here it goes. I'm reading the book "The Soul of a New Machine", a book about the development of DG's Eclipse minicomputers (great book, BTW). In there, they talk about a "microcoder," one who is responsible for developing the microcode for the processor. Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded ROM for the instruction fetch unit of the microprocessor. Since I haven't been formally schooled in computer science or microprocessor design, I'd like to understand (in 500 words or less ) how microcode works, i.e., how is it implemented and how does the microprocessor access it. I know that this is probably a topic that is worthy of volumes of paper, but the Reader's Digest version will do! Thanks. Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 07:57:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS Message-ID: <199801081357.AA25900@world.std.com> <95% true, but using RLL on stepper is fine but the main problem was The Baltimore County Public Schools have 100's of old (286 & earlier) PC that need a disposal outlet. We are looking for companies that buy old machines for resale in third-world countries. Any info that you have that will help us to identifiy companies in this business will be greatly appreciated. Larry Mathison (410) 887-7838, LMATHISON@BCPS.ORG. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 08:59:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? Message-ID: <199801081459.AA21545@world.std.com> < Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded RO ) how microcode works, i.e., how is i It would be interesting to attempt to graph the MIPS/VUP/MIPS/Whetstones/etc. of ancient and contemporary computers, using some approximation of comparable units. It would be fun to recognize that, say, one of my old computers was just as fast as an IBM AT, but was available five years before. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 8 09:11:55 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale January 10 and 11, 733 SE 9th Ave. (Upstairs), Portland, OR 97214 with : "Chieftan S50, S100, Morrow, Altos, Nec, XORI, Kaypro, Xerox, Mindset, OSM Zeus, DEC computers, 11/73, 11/44, Vax 11/730, HSC50, RA60, TU 81 Plus, RA 81s, 486 & 386 PCs" etc. and lots more radio / TV / electronics, see for more info. - John From Bill_von_Hagen at transarc.com Thu Jan 8 09:12:10 1998 From: Bill_von_Hagen at transarc.com (Bill_von_Hagen@transarc.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix Workstations Message-ID: Tektronix made a number of interesting UN*X workstations (their flavor was called UTek) in the early/mid eighties, finally hanging it up around 1990 after releasing a Motorola 88K-based machine called the XD88 series. Earlier Tek workstations were the Magnolia, the 4XXX series, the 613X series, and the 6205. The 6205 and 6130 were based on the National Semiconductor 32032 processor - the 6130 was a desk-top that actually made it to market. The 6205 was a floor-standing "tower" version that was faster and more expandable, but which never sriously made it to the commercial market, as far as I know. The 43XX and 44XX boxes were very cool, too - these ran UTek or Smalltalk. As with all Tek products, all of these systems had fantastic graphics for their time. I have various of these machines (6205, 6132, etc.). I can probably copy some docs for you if you'd like. Let me know. Bill The following is some info about these that I collected from someone who worked at Tektronix during the time: The Magnolia was a proof-of-concept design, built in small quantities for internal use only. It had two 68000 processors, one for general use, and one for display only. It was a floor-standing cube about 18" per side. I believe it ran BSD Unix and used VME cards. My guess is there were some 20-50 built. My understanding is that the design was not easily "productized," meaning EL approval, inexpensive, etc. It had some custom hybrid ICs in it that apparently cost a mint to make. The Magnolia people and the 6000-line people were at war over processors and OS's. The 6000 line eventually lost -- the Magnolia people eventually produced the 4000-line, which were based on Motorola processors and an awful UNIX clone called Uniflex. Once the 6000-line died, it became politically possible to port UTek to the 4000-line boxes, and their names changed. Here's a quick run-down (somewhat chronological): Magnolia -- Tek-internal-only, integrated bitmap display, dual 68000, BSD Unix, VME?. 6205 -- only a few sold, Futurebus, NS32032, integrated display subsystem never really worked. 6130 -- NS32032 desk-top, not expandable, integrated display subsystem never really worked terribly well, usually used with a serial console. 4404 -- 68000, all-in-one with integrated 15" monochrome display, Uniflex OS. 4406 -- 68202, all-in-one with integrated 19", 4-bit gray display, Uniflex OS. Extremely sharp, but short-lived, internally produced CRT -- I'd be amazed if any of these are still working. The displays regulary started getting dim about a month after the warranty expired. 4407 -- same as 4406, but with a Hitachi color monitor. 4404+ -- internal-only, the 4404 with a 68010 daughtercard and MMU so it can run UTek. 4315 -- 4404 package with a 68020 processor, UTek. 4316 -- 4406 with minor changes, running UTek. Same dismal CRT. 4317 -- 4407 with minor changes, running UTek. It's been a while, some of these numbers might be off by a digit or so... From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 8 09:37:41 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s In-Reply-To: <199801080300.TAA02286@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 6, 98 05:15:51 pm Message-ID: <9801081537.AA14455@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980108/1cf1fa0a/attachment.ksh From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 09:08:02 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199801081545.JAA06950@onyx.southwind.net> > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:51:36 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tektronix 6132 workstations > >I've seen a few Tektronix workstations, and they seem to be based (in > >general) on 68k CPUs, often the 68020. > > It took some _SERIOUS_ manipulating of the web engines today during lunch, > but I finally found something out. > > It seems there were three distinct 'families' running Tektronix UTek > (UNIX). The first, which it sounds like I'll be getting, had a rather > obscure processor I've heard of before, something like a '32k'. The second ^^^^^ Do you mean a National Semi 32000 class cpu? Kewl. Boy, those were hot, hot, hot when they hit the market in the early 80's. National did everything right on this one: Full object code compatibility between the 8,16 and 32 bit versions of the device; truly orthogonal instruction set, and so on. Mondo cool. It also was THE FIRST true 32-bit cpu on the market (according to an EDN magazine article). Did I say National did everything right? Yes. Well, depends on how you look at it. You couldn't run dos or CP/M on it. This, I suppose, was it's fatal 'flaw' (although I am of the opinion that that such compatibility would be a major DEFECT, but never mind). That and National didn't market the device very well, although it was used in alot of embedded applications. I wonder how much further it would have gone, had the free Unices we have today been available back then . . . . Zane, I have the NS-32000 programmers guide somewhere in my library if you're interested. Jeff From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 8 10:35:39 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-07 20:19:54 EST, you write: << David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what about this? :) My book does not list this Model 77. >> as far as the ps2 models i own go, my brother gave me the two model 30s. the place where he used to work at had round filed them, so he rescued them for me. the 8086 model was complete with a 4869 floppy drive and 8503 monitor! works great and had data on it dated up to 1991. the model 77 is a premium class ps2 machine announed in 1993 or 1994 i think so doesnt really apply to discussion here although it has mca architecture with is 10 years old. mine is a 9577-ouf which is a 486sx 33. full scsi, 2.88 floppy. 2-400 meg scsi drives and 16 meg which is max i think. i found a mca scsi adaptor at a radio rally for $1. tests ok, but its not a caching controller. this ps2 could support as many scsi drives as there are drive letters to support them, btw. david From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 10:43:17 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <199801081643.AA04475@world.std.com> From: Kimberley Weathers Subject: IBM Magnetic cards I work at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, in their archives. I found these cards are shaped like a punch card, but look like a floppy diskette without the cover. They're from about 1976, and I can't find anyone, not even at IBM, to read them. Any ideas? I know that after all this they may not even work, but it's worth a try, because this looks like important info. Any suggestions? Thank you, Kimberley Weathers kweather@bcm.tmc.edu __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jan 8 10:58:25 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? Message-ID: <01IS4OR4G6IQ9BVO4V@cc.usu.edu> > Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded ROM >for the instruction fetch unit of the microprocessor. Since I haven't been >formally schooled in computer science or microprocessor design, I'd like to >understand (in 500 words or less ) how microcode works, i.e., how is it >implemented and how does the microprocessor access it. The problem is that doing it right takes a picture... A computer is built from (among other things) a whole grundle of state machines. A state machine is a circuit that, at each clock cycle, uses some number of inputs and its current state and uses them to generate some number of outputs. The current state is a set of outputs that are fed back into the machine; that is, they are outputs that become inputs to the "next state generator", the logic which figures out what the outputs should be at the next clock. The next state generator is a complex piece of logic, especially for a machine with a lot of states; the next state generator for a state machine with, say, 256 states has 8 inputs just for the state variables! Designing the next state generator for a state machine as complex as the control unit of a CPU is very difficult and error-prone. Microcode is simply a technique which replaces the logic of the next state generator with a ROM. The inputs (including the current state) are fed into the address of the ROM and the data from the ROM are taken to be the outputs for the next state. Instead of implementing the logic by tossing around gates, you implement the logic by building a lookup table in the microcode ROM. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jan 8 11:06:20 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations Message-ID: <01IS4P5BY7Q09BVO4V@cc.usu.edu> ><32-bit cpu on the market (according to an EDN magazine article). > >Look at that one and then look at VAX... the similarity is very strong. I don't know; I didn't see it. To me, a processor architecture is hung off the register structure and how the registers are used. When I read the introductory chapters of the NS32 book, I got all excited, but when I actually waded through the description of the machine I felt let down. The thing about the VAX is that the entire machine is built around the general purpose register set. Things that are special in other architectures (immediate values, pushing and popping the stack) are simply side effects of everyday addressing modes on the VAX. You can pop things from the stack because you can pop them from any register; MOV R0,(R1)+ works just as well as MOV R0,(SP)+. Immediate values are fundamentally popping things from the PC: MOV R0,(PC)+. The NS32K required special address modes for these operations because SP and PC weren't general purpose registers. I'm also not impressed by folks who claim that a 68000 is a whole lot like a PDP-11 for the same reason... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From lfb107 at psu.edu Thu Jan 8 11:12:12 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <199801081715.MAA50244@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> At 11:23 PM 8/8/97 -0700, Cord Coslor wrote: >I have a C64c, although I haven't found them to be very common. This unit may >be for sell as well if anyone is looking for one. Also, I too found a C64 in a >third party case that looked just like the c-64... and it also was made in >Australia. I can get this for anyone that might want this unit as well. Let me >know. > >CORD COSLOR I have heard that there were about 1 million of these produced with about 3 different subtle kinds made. (Different LED's, new vs old style keyboards, etc.) Of course, compared to the 9+ million 64's produced I guess that means that 64c's are *relatively* uncommon. Les From william at ans.net Thu Jan 8 11:39:20 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS In-Reply-To: <199801081357.AA25900@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The > problem with RISC is that compilers have to work hard to use the full > capability of the cpu. This may have been the problem with early RISC machines, but not so much anymore. Today's compilers are far better than those just 10 years ago (believe it or not, a modern compiler, if given good code, can generate executables just about as nice as the average assembly programmer can), and most of the RISC machines are getting CISCy. > next. The 8088 also does this albeit weakly. With the RISC machines also > doing super pipining the number of clock cycles became less meaningful > and the "MIPS" did as well. Adding things like caches complicates this > more as a cache flush or processor lock can really tie things up for long > periods of time affecting performance. Or vector computation (Crays, big Cybers, VIS and MMX (lame vectors)). They really add problems in the MIPs arena. William Donzelli william@ans.net From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 12:10:56 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108100638.2a5ff33e@ricochet.net> At 03:25 PM 1/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >Which is preferable: Hock the offer to half of that $40 as agreed >on to "whip" for being liar? I can't see him bec he's away for his >doc appt til Friday. $40 imo is a pretty good price for a PS/2 70 lunchbox (if that's what it is). Even with 2/60. I've got 8/60 in mine, and it works okay. Doublespaced, iirc, with Win3.1 loaded. Memory is available, though not always cheap. I don't know much about the motherboard specifics though. >One Mac IIcx - what good about this one? The IIcx is a 68030 (I think!) but doesn't include the onboard video of the similar but slightly later IIci. It was introduced in 1989 at $4669 and discontinued in 1991 at $4699 (according to "The Mac Bathroom Reader".) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 8 12:11:32 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <01bd1c60$d9a131e0$LocalHost@hotze> The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools have MMX machines. -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence T. Mathison To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 5:40 PM Subject: OLD PC's >The Baltimore County Public Schools have 100's of old (286 & earlier) PC >that need a disposal outlet. We are looking for companies that buy old >machines for resale in third-world countries. Any info that you have >that will help us to identifiy companies in this business will be >greatly appreciated. Larry Mathison (410) 887-7838, >LMATHISON@BCPS.ORG. > > From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 8 12:28:51 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: OLD PC's In-Reply-To: <01bd1c60$d9a131e0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108132851.007e2b60@netpath.net> At 09:11 PM 1/8/98 +0300, you wrote: >The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools >have MMX machines. I think the inner city schools would have a better use for these machines, or maybe special afterschool programs, or even donating them to under priveledged kids locally. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From red at bears.org Thu Jan 8 12:51:12 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, John Foust wrote: > I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale I plan on going down from Seattle on Saturday morning. Anybody else going? ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 12:03:41 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6132 workstations In-Reply-To: <199801081643.AA04475@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801081917.NAA01000@onyx.southwind.net> > > > The problem was it was late and only the slow ones with no second source. Yeah. The 32332 was a real ripper CPU, but by the time it was available, Intel already had a firm grip on the marketplace . . . > > The lack of OS support, lack of a perceived need for 32bits, late entry > into the market, poor marketing and the 808x and 68k being both well > embedded in the market were factors that could not be missed. Isn't it odd how the 'Need for Speed' wasn't such a make-or-break issue back then? Yeah, National was the new kid on the block, and the product didn't have the backing of important hardware and software manufacturers (as the PowerPC did, much later). Still, I remember there was a version of UNIX for it; and at least a few hacks bought/made an add-in cpu board to go into the PC (it used ms-dos as a disk/IO server). Those were the days . . . Jeff From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 12:16:24 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: FW: IBM Magnetic cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980108084127.0108c730@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <199801081918.NAA01025@onyx.southwind.net> > From: Kimberley Weathers > Subject: IBM Magnetic cards > > I work at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, in their archives. I > found these cards are shaped like a punch card, but look like a floppy > diskette without the cover. They're from about 1976, and I can't find > anyone, not even at IBM, to read them. Any ideas? I know that after all > this they may not even work, but it's worth a try, because this looks like > important info. Any suggestions? > > Thank you, > > Kimberley Weathers > kweather@bcm.tmc.edu > I remember these. There were two kinds of machines that I recall use this media. The first, I know little about; that's the IBM word processors based on the Selectric typewriter mechanism. These beasts were what looked like an IBM selectric with a THICK umbilical to a 2 1/2 foot high cabinet that sat next to your desk. These had a cardreader, that would move the card in and out as it read the tracks. The other one, I worked on for a awhile, was a similar word processor manufactured by Redactron Corp, of Yaphank NY (or NJ?). The 'Redactor' used these MAG cards at first, then changed to cassette tape. They were later bought out by Burroughs, in their abortive attempt to enter the word processor business. They were thoroughly clobbered by the likes of NBI and Lanier, who were both subsequently killed in the ensuing PeeCee 'revolution' (revulsion?). I haven't seen a mag card reader of any 'stripe' in many years. Sorry for the long (and largely irrelevent) reply. That's what happens when you revive a long-dead memory: It tends to assume a life of its own. Jeff From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 8 13:55:08 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> Message-ID: <199801082045.OAA08030@onyx.southwind.net> R. Stricklin wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, John Foust wrote: > > > I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale > > I plan on going down from Seattle on Saturday morning. Anybody else going? > > ok > -r > -- > r e d @ b e a r s . o r g > ============================= > [ urs longa | vita brevis ] > > Grrrrrrr! I would give a certain part of my anatomy to go to this one! But I'm stuck here in this technological wasteland of the midwest. There's a box there I would grab, sight unseen. Oh well. I am indeed envious. Jeff From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 18:23:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS In-Reply-To: <199801081357.AA25900@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 8, 98 08:57:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 977 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980109/f77d3254/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 18:52:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? In-Reply-To: <0e1b44654130818UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 8, 98 08:52:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5340 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980109/0e014d19/attachment.ksh From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Jan 8 18:47:00 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> I just picked up a RCA Ascii keyboard. Does anyone have the pinout for it's connector? --------------------------------------------- I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? From arco at sta.es Wed Jan 7 03:00:54 1998 From: arco at sta.es (arco) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV Arco Electronica S.A. es una empresa espa=F1ola dedicada a la Message-ID: automatizaci=F3n de procesos industriales. Desde hace varios a=F1os estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. = =20 Actualmente tenemos una delegaci=F3n en BRASIL, pero no tenemos informaci=F3n si ustedes disponen de servicio t=E9cnico en Brasil. Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, as=ED como los servicios t=E9cnic= os de Iberoam=E9rica. =20 Agradeciendo la atenci=F3n prestada: Jose Manuel Soria V=E1zquez ---------------------------------------------- Finds: Just before Christmas I found the following cassette software in ziplock bags with the manual: Extended Basic by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20 Resident Assembler by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20 Text Editor by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20 a terminal program (I forget the name) by Dynasty Computer for the= SMART-Alec. --------------------------------------------- I want to approach a company about getting permission to copy their manuals and system software to distribute to other collectors. I think that it would go smoother if I already had a contract drawn up before hand. A generic agreement. Does anyone have experience with this? Or are there any Lawyer/Collectors out there? I'm looking for real experience. If a document like this doesn't exist, it should. We need to do all can towards tracking down who owns the rights to the software that keeps our machines running and getting their permission to copy it for others. --------------------------------------------- Fun Fact: The PMC101 "MicroMate" CP/M 3.0 System disk comes with a utility called CONVERT which allows the user to configure any of the floppy drives attached to the system (up to 4) to read and write disks of a number of different CP/M formats. The disks must already be formated. This utility makes it easy to transfer files between these formats: COMPUTER SIDES DENSITY =20 PMC-101 2 Double =20 PMC-101 1 Double =20 Omikron 1 Single =20 Kaypro II 1 Double =20 Osborne 1 Single =20 Osborne 1 Double =20 HP-125 2 Double =20 Xerox 820 II 1 Single =20 Xerox 820 II 1 Double =20 Dec 1 Double =20 IBM PC (CP/M) 1 Double =20 Zenith Z-37 1 Double =20 MicroDecision 1 Double MicroDecision 2 Double InterSystems 2 Double InterSystems 1 Double Televideo 802 2 Double Cromemco 1 Single =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com =20 Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. =20 Sunnyvale,CA=20 Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery =20 http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 8 20:01:02 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Seeking info on a PA63 unit Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108180102.00723278@agora.rdrop.com> Ok, here's an odd one... In a recent stack of items that I picked up, I came across a chassis with a status indicator panel suggesting that it was some type of reader/punch controller, and an id tag reading "Model PA63". It is obviously a DEC unit, but I've never seen any information on such a thing that I can recall. A more or less DEC standard looking wire wrapped backplane, standard 19 inch chassis about 6 inchec tall, and three fans. No power supply, but a large cable off of the backplane that looks like it was intended to connect to an external supply. Status displays for reader and punch data and status, and a reader and punch 'unit select' display. I keep thinking that if it turns out to be interesting, I might want to restore it and install it on one of my systems. But, I'll need some info and a set of prints to make any headway. Anyone familiar with this beast? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:12:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180830.3c578d4a@ricochet.net> At 07:47 PM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote: >I like the IIcis. They're cute little things. Pretty fast, too. The only The IIci is probably my favorite classic mac (other than the portable, perhaps). Great case, compact and easy to work on. Built-in video too. >years. They have two problems. One is that the monitors power up >intermittently, probably due to the transformer. Ideas? The other is the disk The monitor is separate, kinda irrelevant to the CPU. If the monitor is bad, just get a new monitor. (they can, as someone mentioned, run a VGA monitor with the right adapter.) >drives. They were all blown out with compressed air, but still didn't start >working correctly. Ideas? I assume you mean the floppy drives. Again, they can be replaced, although mac floppy drives aren't cheap. Depending on your exact situation, you can often get away without a working floppy. (If you mean the hard drive, that's even easier; it's a standard 3.5" scsi drive.) The IIci can run a CD-ROM drive, connect to the internet, and do just about anything you'd like. Rachel's got 3 (I think) of them in her classroom, plus one at home (her first computer, now her niece's). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:12:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180834.3c574a92@ricochet.net> At 08:20 PM 1/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >I agree. I just finished looking at the info as provided by apple's >site. So I will leave this IIcx alone. I thought of putting linux >on that when linux version get to full version release for that 68k >type. A IIcx for C$25 isn't that bad, assuming it has a decent size hard drive (80mb+) and some ram (4mb+). If it comes with a keyboard and mouse as well, and/or video card, you're doing pretty good. I would definitely pick one up at that price for Rachel's classroom. (The IIci is a little nicer, but a IIcx is very acceptable.) Note, if anyone (especially in the SF bay area) comes across mac stuff cheap that they're not interested in (especially monitors!) I'm always looking to get more computers into her classroom. (In case I haven't mentioned her before, my girlfriend (Rachel) is a 1st grade teacher in Daly City. We've put 10 or 11 macs in her school (8 in her class) so far, mostly based on my scrounging (or buying) parts and refurbing them.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:12:55 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: HP3000 editor (was: Frank knows his stuff) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180844.3c57eacc@ricochet.net> At 05:22 PM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote: > Qedit >> is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS. > >Yeah, but they want something like $90 for it! I found another, that's free >(even has spell check). Will send to anyone on request. If Qedit for the HP3000 is only $90, you'd be well off to purchase it! Especially if you're planning on any kind of development. On the other hand, I believe there is a PC editor with the same name (unrelated and not as good.) (Best Windows editor I've seen is Programmer's File Editor -- $0, and the guy wouldn't take money when I wanted to send him some! This is off topic, email me for details.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:13:22 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: archiving history (was: Tektronix Workstations) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180914.42b74bf6@ricochet.net> At 10:12 AM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Tektronix made a number of interesting UN*X workstations (their flavor [...snip-o-rama...] >The following is some info about these that I collected from someone >who worked at Tektronix during the time: [...snipitty-doo-dah...] >The Magnolia was a proof-of-concept design, built in small quantities for [...snipola...] >Here's a quick run-down (somewhat chronological): [...schnippy...] This is the kind of info that I really believe should be archived on the web for all eternity. I don't own a tektronix ws now, so although interesting, it's not something I really want to clutter up my email folders with. However, I might just get one next week. In which case, I'd really want this info. But, I wouldn't want to bother Bill for it again (and again and again...). If it were on a web page somewhere, a search in Alta Vista (or whichever search engine one used) would turn it up. So, I would like to *really* encourage people who have this sort of info to put it on the web. Of course, it's all fine and dandy for me to say that (especially when I have yet to get *my* collection online!) when I know you all have more important things to do and more important stuff to fill your webspace with. So, I'll offer to host and html-ize any stuff like this anyone wants to send me. Just dump it (any kind of: history, folklore, specs, special commands, secret codes, easter eggs, power supply voltages, etc.) in an e-mail and send it to me at and I'll get it on-line. (It won't necessarily be beautiful, but it will be useable.) Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:13:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108180925.51973182@ricochet.net> At 09:11 PM 1/8/98 +0300, you wrote: >The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools >have MMX machines. Perhaps, but is that: a) Schools for dependents of US citizens working for US companies in Bahrain, b) local schools in an wealthy country (i.e., the government is wealthy even if the citizenry isn't) c) only the schools located in the major cities? In the philippines, it ain't true. Heck, my girlfriend's sister-in-law's family doesn't even have a telephone. There is a company here in San Francisco that ships hundreds (if not thousands) of older PC's and such overseas *everyday*. They're huge, and it's really an amazing operation. And yes, they occassionally get some classic computers worth saving. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 8 20:16:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980108091155.00a9f680@pc> Message-ID: >with : "Chieftan S50, S100, Morrow, Altos, Nec, XORI, Kaypro, Xerox, >Mindset, OSM Zeus, DEC computers, 11/73, 11/44, Vax 11/730, HSC50, >RA60, TU 81 Plus, RA 81s, 486 & 386 PCs" etc. and lots more Anyone got any idea on what they are going to want for this kind of stuff? I need some S-100 boards, and would absolutely love to get my hands on some DEC systems. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From pvhp at forte.com Thu Jan 8 20:17:56 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: YA UN*X for DEC MIPS Message-ID: <9801090217.AA10105@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: YA UN*X for DEC MIPS It seems there is/may-be yet another unix workalike for DEC MIPS machines. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 20:22:31 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Classic Macs mailing list? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108181821.57ff1fb2@ricochet.net> At 09:26 AM 12/1/97 -0600, you wrote: > I'm interested in the classic Macs mailing list (I have a Plus). >Where do I sign up? Okay, so I'm inefficient and disorganized... 8^) I was going through some old mail and realized I never forwarded the info about the classic macs list. So, here it is: ----------------------------------------- To subscribe to Classic Macs, send e-mail to . In the body of the message write subscribe classics You will be added within a day. _______________________________________________________ If you are new to the list, please take time to visit the Classic Macs archives. Many, many common questions have been asked already and you may find what you seek in previous posts. This will save the list members much time in not having to pore over frequently asked and answered questions many times. The Classic Macs Archives are found at: http://www.zws.com/classicmacs/ Thanks to Lewin A.R.W. Edwards for maintaining and hosting the archives. _______________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 8 20:22:42 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS References: <3.0.1.32.19980108090623.00b96a80@pc> Message-ID: <34B589F2.9F9BBAE3@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > > It would be interesting to attempt to graph the MIPS/VUP/MIPS/Whetstones/etc. > of ancient and contemporary computers, using some approximation of > comparable units. It would be fun to recognize that, say, one of > my old computers was just as fast as an IBM AT, but was available > five years before. Part of that was demonstrable _then_, albeit subjectively. Format a standard Tandon or whatever 20 MB disk from the bare oxide on an AT and on a TRS-80 Model 4. The results will surprise you. (With an XT the difference was much more ludicrous. I'm told the same applies with a Color Computer, but hooking up a hard drive is damned near the only thing I've never done with one. (The inflatable party doll Program Pak interface is _still_ in Beta test.) 8-)} -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Jan 8 20:21:43 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> References: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <34e888d6.338958636@hoser> On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:47:00 -0800, you wrote: > I just picked up a RCA Ascii keyboard. Does anyone have the pinout >for it's connector? Is it one of the little membrane keyboards with a metal enclosure and a DB-25 connector on the back? I've got a couple of those; I don't remember if I've got docs or not, but I opened one up and it didn't look too hard to figure out. >--------------------------------------------- >I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but >I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? >>From arco@sta.es Wed Jan 07 10:43:27 1998 >X-Sender: arco@sta.es >Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:00:54 +0100 >To: "Doug Coward" >From: arco >Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV > Arco Electronica S.A. es una empresa espa?ola dedicada a la >automatizaci?n de procesos industriales. > Desde hace varios a?os estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. > Actualmente tenemos una delegaci?n en BRASIL, pero no tenemos >informaci?n si ustedes disponen de servicio t?cnico en Brasil. > Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, as? como los servicios t?cnicos >de Iberoam?rica. > > Agradeciendo la atenci?n prestada: > Jose Manuel Soria V?zquez >---------------------------------------------- I ran this through Alta-Vista's online translator (at http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate), and this is what came out. Not sure why it translated "Alto" as "stop" in the body, but not the subject line. Anyway, it's readable. That translator has come in handy - it also does web pages. In English: Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV Arco Electronica S.A. is a Spanish company dedicated to the automatization of industrial processes. For several years we have been installing terminal of STOPS IV. At the moment we have a delegation in BRAZIL, but we do not have information if you have technical service in Brazil. We requested indicate to us if they have it, as well as the technical services of Ibero-America. Appreciating the lent attention: Jose Manuel Soria Va'zquez -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 20:26:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS Message-ID: <199801090226.AA12888@world.std.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: CherylGW Subject: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:26:09 EST Size: 4962 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980108/3f61cbfd/attachment.mht From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 8 21:02:38 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108210238.006bcb7c@pop3.concentric.net> I see them from time to time here in the TwinCities. I do not buy them anymore, I have 6. They have shape like the C128 and the same color and run all the old cartridges. At 08:11 PM 1/7/98 -0800, you wrote: >I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see >one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few >months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 >or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! > >Functionally are they any different from a standard 64? > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 8 22:28:57 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> Message-ID: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, will emerson wrote: > > From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 8 21:20:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: CoCo Software (was Re: Software Piracy [again] and ) References: <199801040238.VAA30525@server1.netpath.net> Message-ID: <34B5977D.2B50D165@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >One does sell outdated software for (well, usually) a smaller than normal > >fee. Tandy. They still sell software that runs on the original CoCo1 like > >Mega-bug and the like on cassette and disk for as low as $2.50 or so. They > >still have a small amount of cartridge software for sale! > > Here is a stupid CoCo question, how does one go about buying this software > from them? I'm assuming the typical Tandy Sales drone will go, "Huh, nope, > we don't have any such product" (note this is just an assumption on my > part, I've been dealing with to many idiot computer salespeople lately). In every Radio Shack company store (I don't know about the remaining few franchise stores), there's a set of binders _on display_ for special order products, mostly electronics garbage.. One of them includes software for old computers, Color Computer, Tandy 6000, early semi-PC-compatibles, etc It surprised the hell out of me to find it, but it's in every store I've visited lately. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 20:46:26 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Geoworks Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA04019@mx5.u.washington.edu> Zeus334@aol.com, who are you? My mail bounced back. I have both Geoworks and Geos. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 20:50:02 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA27694@mx4.u.washington.edu> > I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see > one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few > months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 > or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! > > Functionally are they any different from a standard 64? No. I have 3 of 'em. (Nyaah Nyaah! :) Ya want one? manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 21:33:06 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: archiving history (was: Tektronix Workstations Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA27234@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > So, I'll offer to host and html-ize any stuff like this anyone wants to send > me. Just dump it (any kind of: history, folklore, specs, special commands, > secret codes, easter eggs, power supply voltages, etc.) in an e-mail and > send it to me at and I'll get it on-line. (It won't > necessarily be beautiful, but it will be useable.) Great idea. The manuals may survive, but the folklore that's batted about this -- and other discussion groups -- is as ephemeral as it is precious. My grandkids are (i hope) gonna want to know what it felt like to sit at a keyboard, to write a program, to swap out a drive... From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 21:15:37 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA27698@mx4.u.washington.edu> I have a couple of junk Model 30's if anyone... My vote goes to the Model 25 as the most horrid computer PC of all time. Unexpandable, impossible to work on. Ick! manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jan 8 21:26:34 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: FW: IBM Magnetic cards Message-ID: <199801090341.TAA05458@mx3.u.washington.edu> > I haven't seen a mag card reader of any 'stripe' in many years. Several HP calculators used 'em for awhile. The HP-41C had a motorized reader, while the -75 and (later) the 71B of fond memory used hand-pulled strips. I bought my 71 in '87, iirc. Hey -- I just realized -- it's a classic! Makes me feel OLD. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 8 22:01:43 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-08 22:43:53 EST, you write: << I have a couple of junk Model 30's if anyone... My vote goes to the Model 25 as the most horrid computer PC of all time. Unexpandable, impossible to work on. Ick! >> actually, i think its kind of neat in a strange way. all in one form factor, like a compact mac. in fact, the IBM Eduquests are built the same way. the only bad part is expandability and if the monitor or power supply dies, you're finished. david From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 22:28:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <199801090428.AA28598@world.std.com> < My vote goes to the Model 25 as the most horrid computer PC of all time < Unexpandable, impossible to work on. Ick! >> < References: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <34b5a974.453570@mail.swbell.net> On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:47:00 -0800, you said: >Fun Fact: >The PMC101 "MicroMate" CP/M 3.0 System disk comes with a >utility called CONVERT which allows the user to configure any >of the floppy drives attached to the system (up to 4) to read and >write disks of a number of different CP/M formats. The disks >must already be formated. This utility makes it easy to transfer >files between these formats: If I remember correctly, Kaypro CP/M 2.2 allows lots of "foreign" reads/writes/(?)formats(?) but the disks/docs are harder to get to than the computer... _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 8 23:00:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: linux Message-ID: <199801090500.AA19006@world.std.com> To quote the good doctor "it lives". Finally I've gotten linux (slakware V3) to install on the 386, I finally stripped the disk of the semifunctional version that wouldn't boot and installed it fresh and it seems to run properly. More importantly it boots properly on power up. Right now X-win is not installed as 8meg is all it's got. One annoying thing is the autoprobe for CDrom, it's slow. Generally the speed is good. What has me fully baffeled is there is now clue what I've done different since the last three times. Now the next task is getting SLIP or PPP going so that it can access the internet. Then I want to get x-windows and it's related tools going. I also have to get an IP stack going on the dosbox to share files. Any experts out there? Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 9 00:56:47 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: FW: IBM Magnetic cards In-Reply-To: <199801090341.TAA05458@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980109005647.4a1f565e@intellistar.net> At 10:26 PM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> I haven't seen a mag card reader of any 'stripe' in many years. > >Several HP calculators used 'em for awhile. The HP-41C had a motorized >reader, while the -75 and (later) the 71B of fond memory used hand-pulled >strips. I bought my 71 in '87, iirc. > >Hey -- I just realized -- it's a classic! Makes me feel OLD. > > Speaking of cards. I need some mag cards for my HP 9100. They're about 2 x 3 inches in size and where also used in several of HPs big desktop calculators. Does anyone have any of those that they're willing to part with? Joe From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 8 22:18:16 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <01bd1cb5$9c363b20$LocalHost@hotze> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 5:10 AM Subject: Re: OLD PC's >At 09:11 PM 1/8/98 +0300, you wrote: >>The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools >>have MMX machines. > >Perhaps, but is that: > >a) Schools for dependents of US citizens working for US > companies in Bahrain, No, there's only one of those. (It's a DoDDs school) They've got 286's in classrooms, 386's in science labs, 486's in 3 computer labs, and Pentiums in the library and a new computer lab. They're trying to replace the 486's, so that they move the 486's in the classrooms, but the new Pentiums will have to run Windows 3.1, as that's what they're doing now. >b) local schools in an wealthy country (i.e., the government > is wealthy even if the citizenry isn't) No, the government is relatively wealthy, but the local schools mostly have 386's and 486's. I haven't visited many, so don't bind me by that. >c) only the schools located in the major cities? Major cities? Here? (Ask Zane) ;-) >In the philippines, it ain't true. Heck, my girlfriend's sister-in-law's >family doesn't even have a telephone. Yep. But there are lots of immigrants from the Philippines here, but the thing is, I'd think taht they're better back home. I mean, here, they get paid around $150 a month for 12hrs a day, and 7 days a week. And to think that they call it third world... (should be eighth or so...) :-( >There is a company here in San Francisco that ships hundreds (if not >thousands) of older PC's and such overseas *everyday*. They're huge, and >it's really an amazing operation. And yes, they occassionally get some >classic computers worth saving. Yes, or, what they could do at the school is give them to student's who can't afford computers. WP 5.1 will run on a 286, you can get Windows 3.1 out of 'em, they'll run almost all DOS software. (Well, except for games, etc.) And, when finished with an early Epson dot-matrix, they make machines that are good for doing reports, PrintShop, etc. Tim D. Hotze From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Jan 8 23:05:32 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: SwTPC web page Message-ID: <199801090505.AAA21745@webern.cs.unc.edu> Well, it isn't impressive yet, but there isn't much point to keeping it hidden either. So, here's the URL for my beginnings of a web page for SwTPC - Soutwest Technical Products Corp: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/swtpc Hope you like it. Bill. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 8 22:51:19 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6130 Engineering Workstation In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980108181821.57ff1fb2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: In a word, I've got it. No documentation, yet. The gentleman that I got it from wasn't expecting me to pick it up until Saturday, but my plans got changed, so I called him up and arranged to pick it up tonite. He's going to try to find the Documentation and will get back with me, it turns out he's only a couple miles away, so it's no biggy. I'm told it's a 6132, but the nameplate say's 6130, so how knows? The main computer is about the size of a old PC, but turned sideways. It also has a very large expansion unit the size of some computers that apparently houses a second SCSI Hard Drive (although I'm doubtful there is a HD in it anymore), and what appears to be a QIC-150 (doubt it's that big) tape drive. There is a shielded SCSI cable like what's normally used inside a computer. It has one empty card slot, and a 1Mb card in another slot. There is also a terminal with it, a "Ann Arbor XL Series" that connects via a Serial line. Does anyone have any idea what kind of terminal this is? It's very wierd, it's the only ASCII terminal that I've seen which is a portrait-mode terminal! Is this some kind of VT-100 compatible or something? The only thing I've ever seen that even comes close is some of the old Macintosh monitors. It will probably take me a while to get it ready to power up. It looks like the first thing I'd better do is give it a VERY good cleaning. The terminal and keyboard are nice and clean. The computer is pretty dirty. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From starling at umr.edu Thu Jan 8 23:16:59 1998 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: linux In-Reply-To: <199801090500.AA19006@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 9, 98 00:00:25 am Message-ID: <199801090516.XAA18600@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I really hate to reply to the whole mailing list about this, but I have no e-mail address for Allison. (Grrr... if the mail server would leave intact the original headers or something...) Sorry for the off-topic message... :( > One annoying thing is the autoprobe for CDrom, it's > slow. Generally the speed is good. chmod 644 /etc/rc.d/rc.cdrom That should prevent it from probing for the CDROM, since you don't have one. > I also have to get an IP stack going on the dosbox to share files. Any > experts out there? I can answer a question or two on linux, but I'm no expert on DOS IP stacks. Here at school, we use the Clarkson University (CUTCP) package for DOS IP needs, but I don't think it has any server capabilities. But I'd be interested if you found a program that did such a thing in DOS. chris starling starling@umr.edu From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Thu Jan 8 23:27:38 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980108210238.006bcb7c@pop3.concentric.net> References: Message-ID: >I see them from time to time here in the TwinCities. I do not buy them >anymore, I have 6. They have shape like the C128 and the same color and >run all the old cartridges. OK, I don't know much about C64's or other Commodore machines(although I have had a chance to look at a C16, several C64's and a few C128's). From what you say, it sounds like the 64c is in the low-profile case(to me it looked like a shortened C128 case). Is this correct? I've seen several of those, and I think I saw a C64(might have been something else) that looked like those chunky wedge-shaped IBM keyboards, like they used with the DisplayWriter or older terminals. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 23:44:30 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: sale in Portland this weekend Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108214005.3b574aa8@ricochet.net> At 01:51 PM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale > >I plan on going down from Seattle on Saturday morning. Anybody else going? I can't make it (a bit far from San Francisco), but I'd be happy provide you with a shopping list. 8^) (Actually, it's pretty simple: any portable computers smaller large-laptop-size or smaller, $10 or less. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 23:44:27 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: OLD PC's Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108214000.3b574210@ricochet.net> At 01:28 PM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >I think the inner city schools would have a better use for these machines, >or maybe special afterschool programs, or even donating them to under >priveledged kids locally. a lot of local programs certainly have *need* for them, but they would probably see more *use* overseas. The problem with older (and certainly very viable and useful) equipment in this country is getting it into operation, maintaining it, and putting it to work with software other than what one buys at CompUSA. I'd be happy to discuss this further (I am somewhat involved in this sort of thing myself) but I think it best kept to private e-mail (or the various newsgroups/mailing lists about the subject.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 8 23:44:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: translating... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980108214008.3b574702@ricochet.net> At 04:47 PM 1/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but >I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? I can't read spanish, but I can pass on this URL: which lets you enter either a bunch of text or a URL and it will translate it for you. Pretty neat, although far from perfect. Can at least get you an idea of what that german/spanish/french classic computer page is talking about. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 9 01:06:51 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: VUPs to MIPS to microcode In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 9, 98 00:23:49 am Message-ID: <199801090706.CAA12812@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > Someone said: > take many clock cycles. RISC by definition is at most two clock cycles > to execute a given instruction. Generally RISC machines can perform Tony Duell then replied: > I'm not that well up in modern processor design, but I've never heard of > that definition. In fact the ARM becomes CISC by it, I think (?). Then Allison J Parent replied: > That was part of the mid 80s def, but by no means an exclusive item. There really isn't a single concensus as to what RISC really means, other than Reduced Instruction Set Computer (and CISC - Complex Instruction Set Computer) although there typically are conventions. The RISC concept came out of R&D by IBM (notably. I think Stanford was also doing research into this). They were studying the instructions used by compilers and noted that typical compilers only used the simpler instructions and addressing modes, since compilers then weren't sophisticated enough to use the more complex instructions (or it was harder to map the complex instructions into what the compiler was compiling). IBM reasoned that it would be better to make a CPU with only those instructions commonly used, with simple addressing modes. This would make the CPU easier to build and test. And a simpler design is easier to speed up. IBM produced the RS (I think - memory is going) line of computers which were the first commercial available system based upon the RISC ideal. Note that it didn't have some of the traits to later come out of RISC like pipelines or fixed length instructions. Later on, any complexity lost to instructions was later gained by pipelining, caching, branch prediction and other esoteric stuff. Tony: > Anyway, what's a clock cycle? The PERQ executes one microcycle per clock > input cycle _but_ there's a few dozen other timing signals that fly about > the CPU board that are produced by feeding the master clock into a delay > line and combining the outputs from the taps of said delay line. An > alternative design would have been to use a much faster master clock and > divide it down using counters/shift registers. Are you saying that (had > the microcycle == 1 instruction cycle) the first would have been RISC but > the second CISC, where the 2 machines would execute the same instruction > set at the same real speed. If so, the terms RISC and CISC are totally bogus. Well, most RISC computers are hardpressed to execute an instruction in a single clock cycle. For instance, a RISC CPU may take four cycles to execute a single instruction, say, fetch, decode, execution and store. But by using a pipeline, these four stages (for example) can be overlapped so that at any given cycle, there are four instructions in various parts of being executed. Like I said, the criteria of RISC and CISC are rather arbitrary, but the convention is that you have a simple regular instruction set and only one or two addressing modes (with most operations being between registers). Allison: > The ARM used more clocks but not many. The early defininition was simply > Reduced Instruction Set and raw speed to make up for it. A PDP-8 would > qualify in many respects as it has about the smallest useful instruction > set going. It's biggest feature is the lack of complexity that allowed > CPUs like the ARM and MIPS to be very fast as they were very simple > compared to say the 386, the result was the amount of silicon required > was less and production costs are lower. Some side effects of the smaller > die(fewer transistors) were improved testability, lower power and less > heat with attendant higher relibility. Most smaller RISC chips are 10s > of thousands of transistors compared to millions in most of the CISC > designs. Most people would consider the VAX to be the most CISCish of CPUs, but with 16 general purpose registers and a very regular instruction format (about the most regular format I've ever encountered, even including RISC) I would almost consider the VAX to be RISCish in nature (although some instructions like CRC might be a bit much 8-) I would give the Most CISCish Award to either the Intel 80286 or the Intel 432. The 80386 is byzantine, but they did (to an extent) regularize the instruction set. -spc (Likes VAX assembly ... ) From rws at ais.net Fri Jan 9 02:22:11 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <19980108164700.680ad386.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: Since nobody else has translated this yet and posted it for the curious, this is what it says (give or take; I haven't used Spanish in a while): On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Doug Coward wrote: > I got this email today ( I think it's classic computer related), but > I can't read Spanish. Can anyone help this person? > From: arco > Subject: TERMINAL ALTOS IV > Arco Electronica S.A. es una empresa española dedicada a la > automatización de procesos industriales. > Desde hace varios años estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. > Actualmente tenemos una delegación en BRASIL, pero no tenemos > información si ustedes disponen de servicio técnico en Brasil. > Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, así como los servicios técnicos > de Iberoamérica. > > Agradeciendo la atención prestada: > Jose Manuel Soria Vázquez Arco Electronics Inc. is a Spanish company dedicated to the automation of industrial processes. For several years we have been installing ALTOS IV terminals. Actually we have a subsidiary in Brazil, but we do not have information on whether you arrange technical service in Brazil. We ask that you tell us if you have it, like the technical services in Spanish America. Thanking you for quick attention, Jose M. Soria V. (Feel free to correct my translation) Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Fri Jan 9 05:55:37 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:10 2005 Subject: Big "B", update References: Message-ID: <34B61038.5130@digiweb.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Does anyone on this list have any sort of data on Burroughs machines? I > would like to get some sort of summary on the different models before > taking any possible plunges into the "real big iron" world. Actually B had a quite reasonable naming strategy : B xyzz e.g B 4720 x was the architecture : 1 "minicomputer", bit addressable memory 2,3,4 COBOL oriented mainframe, decimal arithmetic 5,6,7 Mainframe large systems, stack based 48 bit words y was the generation usually starting at 5 going to 9, again the larger the number the more powerful the system zz was the model number In all cases the larger numbers indicate larger and more powerful systems. They also had the B700 B800 B900 series of minicomputers and the B80 and B90 micro computer series. This description is quite rough and ready, but the numbering was quite logical in its time. Hope this helps, once you get a system name I can provide more information. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Fri Jan 9 10:02:57 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: archiving history (was: Tektronix Workstations) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980108180914.42b74bf6@ricochet.net>; from Uncle Roger on Thu, Jan 08, 1998 at 08:13:22PM -0600 References: <1.5.4.16.19980108180914.42b74bf6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <19980109100257.37239@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu> On Thu, Jan 08, 1998 at 08:13:22PM -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: > This is the kind of info that I really believe should be archived on the web > for all eternity. It is being archived. I've found Kevan Heydon's archive of this mailing list to be quite a valuable resource - especially when I acquire something that I know has been covered before. The URL for the threaded HTML-ized version of this archive is http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/classiccmp/ There is also a text archive available from the classiccmp web (or ftp?) site. Be warned: the individual text files are several megabytes each. As far as eternity goes, I've copied the flat text archives to a "classic" computing CD-R for personal use, along with disk images and ROM dumps for some of the machines in my collection. It's not good enough for eternity, but I'm hoping for well over 10 years. -- Scott Ware NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource 303 East Chicago Avenue, Ward 8-264, Chicago, IL 60611 (312)503-0813 Finger for PGP public key From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 9 12:08:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] In-Reply-To: References: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980109120850.35776d48@intellistar.net> At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. > >=-) > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public service commisions not by the FCC. Joe > >On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, will emerson wrote: > >> >> > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Jan 9 12:33:55 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: SwTPC web page In-Reply-To: <199801090505.AAA21745@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: Bill, I like the page. You can see inside and outside shots of my 6800 at http://www.retrocomputing.com/micros/swtpc.html. In addition, I'm working on getting the SWTPC working again (I HAD it working darnit) after a couple chips went *poof*. My plan is to hang it off the back of a terminal server (which I ALSO HAD WORKING darnit) so people can come in and use it via telnet. Fortunately, I have the Motorola 6800 development system to use as a comparison system for buss signals etc while I'm fixing the SWTPC. Eric Chomko is sending me some schematics which should help me repair it. At any rate, it's really not bad and I'll make sure I put a link from my SWTPC page to your pages. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Well, it isn't impressive yet, but there isn't much point to keeping > it hidden either. So, here's the URL for my beginnings of a web page > for SwTPC - Soutwest Technical Products Corp: > > http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/swtpc > > Hope you like it. > > Bill. > From engine at chac.org Fri Jan 9 15:29:09 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Clock (off topic) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980109132909.01016d50@pop.batnet.com> Between Christmas and New Year's I was cleaning out my mother's house and found a Texas Instruments TI-71, complete with its docs and warranty card. This is a small, line-powered digital clock. Still works fine. What interests me here is that I recall hearing an unsupported contention, years ago, that this was the _first_ commodity digital clock that used seven-segment displays instead of flippers. Can anyone confirm or deny? Tony, you probably know this one. TIA, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 9 19:45:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980109194518.4e57ed1c@intellistar.net> Found this in a news-group. Joe My company needs the space and wants to give away an IBM System/36, immediately! We need it out of here ASAP. Runs great! You haul. Call Rick at 505-982-5573 or email: rogick@roadrunner.com The equipment is as follows: IBM System/36 Model 5360 IBM 4234 Dot Band Printer 6 IBM 3197 Color Workstations Motorola Codex 2205 Modem Dual Tape Backup by Fathom Technologies About 6 5250 Emulation Cards (Short Length) Everything works great! From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jan 9 18:44:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <19980110004439.5143.qmail@hotmail.com> >Received: from host (server@lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id PAA19170; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:49:56 -0800 >Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id PAA13830 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:49:34 -0800 >Received: from star1.intellistar.net (star1.intellistar.net [206.105.64.2]) > by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id PAA11635 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:49:32 -0800 >Received: from lizard ([206.105.68.14]) by star1.intellistar.net > (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-41809U2500L250S0) > with SMTP id AAA12 for ; > Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:49:26 -0500 >Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980109194518.4e57ed1c@intellistar.net> >Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 19:45:18 >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Joe >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Free IBM system 36 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >X-Sender: rigdonj@intellistar.net >X-Priority: 1 (Highest) >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >Found this in a news-group. > > Joe > >My company needs the space and wants to give away an IBM System/36, >immediately! We need it out of here ASAP. Runs great! You haul. Call Rick >at 505-982-5573 or email: rogick@roadrunner.com > >The equipment is as follows: > IBM System/36 Model 5360 > IBM 4234 Dot Band Printer > 6 IBM 3197 Color Workstations > Motorola Codex 2205 Modem > Dual Tape Backup by Fathom Technologies > About 6 5250 Emulation Cards (Short Length) >Everything works great! OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 9 18:51:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE" at Jan 8, 98 11:01:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980110/441f2526/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 9 20:32:40 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: <19980110004439.5143.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 9 21:35:20 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] References: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> <3.0.1.16.19980109120850.35776d48@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34B6EC78.A62DD2D6@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. > > > >=-) > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the > telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public > service commisions not by the FCC. Sorry to say, it _does_ affect us (though yes, it's off-topic, but most of us communicate through Internet links). The FedGov has a couple of taxes on local phone bills for many years. And unless you've forgotten the CDA, they want control over the Net, with special tools to decode any messages someone wants private. Classic computers will not work with those standards, of course. Yes, even if you aren't libertarian. (I know damned well that there are one or two socialists on this list), we can be affected -- we can be forbidden to communicate. And there are at _least_ two attempts in progress to "reword" the CDA so that it takes away just as much freedom but doesn't hit the federal judicial hot buttons. Seems outrageous? The First Amendment covers everything. Presently. transmitting Nobel's (the guy who funded the Prize) formula for explosives is being watched by our "masters". Some of us collect computers that may have been in government hands before the general policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- remember guns (my next love after computers as computers are my next love after science fiction)? Oh, it's platonic. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 9 22:14:34 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] Message-ID: <01bd1d7e$4242c9c0$LocalHost@hotze> Well, it's not going to affect all of us. I don't see how the government can even claim to control the Internet. (Watch how I so cleverly tangle classics into this. ;-) ) The Internet is like space: Something which is relatively (accesibly) new. With Space, an agreement was made saying how it belonged to all nations. (That's my understading) Now, ever since the first TCP was made on a PDP-11/?? (sorry, memory's a bit bad) The 'Net has been rapidly growing. It's truely international. Here, we've got examples. People from US-Europe-Asia-Austrilia are collecting classics. Now, is it legal for the (US) government to censor a message say going from Tony-Riccardo (In Italy) I mean, it might not even go through a US server. The Internet should be out of any government's controls. We should just have an open standard. Governments should be able to VOTE, on an equal basis of that with companies, etc. And then there are those "encryption standards" last summer.... wiped out any chance of brain activity in DC, outside of businesses.... Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] >Joe wrote: >> >> At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. >> > >> >=-) >> > >> >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> >> One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the >> telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public >> service commisions not by the FCC. > >Sorry to say, it _does_ affect us (though yes, it's off-topic, but most >of us communicate through Internet links). The FedGov has a couple of >taxes on local phone bills for many years. And unless you've forgotten >the CDA, they want control over the Net, with special tools to decode >any messages someone wants private. Classic computers will not work >with those standards, of course. Yes, even if you aren't libertarian. >(I know damned well that there are one or two socialists on this list), >we can be affected -- we can be forbidden to communicate. And there >are at _least_ two attempts in progress to "reword" the CDA so that it >takes away just as much freedom but doesn't hit the federal judicial >hot buttons. > >Seems outrageous? The First Amendment covers everything. Presently. >transmitting Nobel's (the guy who funded the Prize) formula for >explosives is being watched by our "masters". Some of us collect >computers that may have been in government hands before the general >policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came >into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- >remember guns (my next love after computers as computers are my next >love after science fiction)? Oh, it's platonic. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 10 00:37:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <34B6EC78.A62DD2D6@cnct.com> References: <34B591D3.A2DE47D5@interserv.com> <3.0.1.16.19980109120850.35776d48@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980110003738.0a17591e@intellistar.net> Ward, I agree with everything that you said, but regulating speech and information is not the same as setting telephone rates. That's what this tread was about. Yes, the Feds do tax telephone service, bu they do not set or limit the rates. That is still controlled by the governing agencies in the individual state governments. And FWIW I'm also into guns and pyro (Fireworks) so I know *VERY* well how the Feds watch and control (notice I didn't say regulate) communictions in there areas. >policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came Actually they drop them in acid. It's a lot more thorough than a chainsaw. Did you see the message that I posted a few weeks ago trying to find a new home for a mint IBM XT minus the hard drive? THAT's what became of it's hard drive. But even that is preferrable to the previous approach. They used to drop the entire computer into acid! That's what happened the first twelve computers in the world. They were built during WW II and used to decode German codes. After the war they were completely destroyed. Most people are completely unaware that they ever existed. >into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- Hi performance cars also. The Feds are determined to save us from ourselves. Joe At 10:35 PM 1/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> At 10:28 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> >Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...two words...'topic' is one. 'off' is the other. >> > >> >=-) >> > >> >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> >> One more word ---- HOAX! Since when did the FCC start regulating the >> telephone industry? Phone rates are set by the individual state public >> service commisions not by the FCC. > >Sorry to say, it _does_ affect us (though yes, it's off-topic, but most >of us communicate through Internet links). The FedGov has a couple of >taxes on local phone bills for many years. And unless you've forgotten >the CDA, they want control over the Net, with special tools to decode >any messages someone wants private. Classic computers will not work >with those standards, of course. Yes, even if you aren't libertarian. >(I know damned well that there are one or two socialists on this list), >we can be affected -- we can be forbidden to communicate. And there >are at _least_ two attempts in progress to "reword" the CDA so that it >takes away just as much freedom but doesn't hit the federal judicial >hot buttons. > >Seems outrageous? The First Amendment covers everything. Presently. >transmitting Nobel's (the guy who funded the Prize) formula for >explosives is being watched by our "masters". Some of us collect >computers that may have been in government hands before the general >policy of "rip out the hard disk and hit it with the chainsaw" came >into effect. Other hobbies have been crippled by the government -- >remember guns (my next love after computers as computers are my next >love after science fiction)? Oh, it's platonic. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. > From william at ans.net Fri Jan 9 23:15:48 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, panic, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980110003738.0a17591e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Actually they drop them in acid. It's a lot more thorough than a > chainsaw. Did you see the message that I posted a few weeks ago trying to > find a new home for a mint IBM XT minus the hard drive? THAT's what became > of it's hard drive. But even that is preferrable to the previous approach. Not all government computers get thier drives removed. Of course, just about any NSA or drives relating to contractor R&D programs get destroyed, but many do not. Look at some of the surplus catalogs the GSA puts out - some of the lots are just hard drives. > They used to drop the entire computer into acid! That's what happened the > first twelve computers in the world. They were built during WW II and used > to decode German codes. After the war they were completely destroyed. Most > people are completely unaware that they ever existed. The only machines that really get destroyed are crypto and high-end weapons systems computers. Obviously with the above mentioned machines, they were destroyed because the government did not other countries knowing just how ahead the U.S. was in cryptography. After all, even allies spy on each other. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jan 9 23:18:31 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, panic, react, forward] In-Reply-To: <01bd1d7e$4242c9c0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: > Well, it's not going to affect all of us. I don't see how the government > can even claim to control the Internet. (Watch how I so cleverly tangle > classics into this. ;-) ) I think this happened in 1993 or so, when the NSFnet turned into ANSnet. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jan 9 23:29:13 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- > >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? > > Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of > use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, > and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? And they never break. Or crash. Oh, and yes, if someone has a cheap EL or J series, talk to me! William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 9 23:59:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 References: Message-ID: <34B70E2D.F3835998@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- > >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? > > Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of > use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, > and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? There's some TRS-80 and maybe Apple users around here that might consider theirselves power users when they can do in under 64k what a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least 640K (or lately, 32Mb). And I suspect that anytime Allison has even 4K at hand, she kicks some butt. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 00:41:33 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: <34B70E2D.F3835998@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: Ward Griffiths wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> >OK, here's my question: would I, as a "power user" have any non- >> >romantic/nostalgic/etc. use for such a machine? >> >> Unless you are collecting Cray's I don't think anything on this list is of >> use to a "Power User". It's a piece of history that should be preserved, >> and would be fun to tinker with. What more do you need? > >There's some TRS-80 and maybe Apple users around here that might >consider theirselves power users when they can do in under 64k what >a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least >640K (or lately, 32Mb). And I suspect that anytime Allison has even >4K at hand, she kicks some butt. I stand corrected :^) What can I say, I am operating under the assumption that from the way he wrote it the original poster is using "power user" to mean someone with the latest in IBM PC clone hardware running the travisty known as Windows95. Oh, and of late it seems to be more like 64Mb is the minimum to do anything with a PC suffering the Winbloat. I totally agree that these can't handle stuff that any decently configured computer with less than 64k could do. Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to a Win95 system running Word97. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Jan 10 01:28:50 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: IBM Rescue Needed -- New Mexico Message-ID: <34b922d7.1489933611@mail.wizards.net> Heads up to any CLASSICCMP members in the Santa Fe area or nearby: Found this on Usenet from a fellow looking to clear out a System/36. If you can help, please contact the original author directly. Best of luck! -=-=- -=-=- Path: Supernews70!Supernews60!supernews.com!news.he.net!news.dra.com!nntp.mainstreet.net!feeder.swcp.com!fugu!SantaFe!not-for-mail From: rogick@roadrunner.com (Rick Byrne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc Subject: Free IBM System/36 and Peripherals Date: 9 Jan 1998 16:17:45 GMT Organization: NMML Lines: 14 Message-ID: <695ij9$rpg$8@santaclara.santafe.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial182.roadrunner.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 Xref: Supernews70 comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:92489 My company needs the space and wants to give away an IBM System/36, immediately! We need it out of here ASAP. Runs great! You haul. Equipment is located in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Call Rick at 505-982-5573 or email: rogick@roadrunner.com The equipment is as follows: IBM System/36 Model 5360 IBM 4234 Dot Band Printer 6 IBM 3197 Color Workstations Motorola Codex 2205 Modem Dual Tape Backup by Fathom Technologies About 6 5250 Emulation Cards (Short Length) Everything works great! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin2 {at} wiz d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jan 10 09:58:11 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free System/36 Message-ID: <19980110155811.2792.qmail@hotmail.com> actually, what i meant by the power-user comment was a person who is not afraid to use a black-and-white command prompt if it can help him/her do something. So, would a System/36 be good for me? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jan 10 10:03:48 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Paperclip (Was: Re: Free IBM system 36) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to > a Win95 system running Word97. Sure, but did wordstar have a cute paperclip to tell you where you wanted to go today? Speaking of paperclip... I may have found the ROMs for both Paperclip and Visicalc on the PET computers. Does anyone know what EPROM would fit the ROM sockets in a PET? I've tried crossing the numbers on the ROMs and can't learn anything. Does anyone have a schematic of a PET mainboard? > Zane ttfn srw From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 10 10:08:27 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <199801101608.AA05699@world.std.com> <>640K (or lately, 32Mb). And I suspect that anytime Allison has even <>4K at hand, she kicks some butt. As someone who has (and still does) develope hardware and software, Thank You! <"power user" t The original term is apple/mac in origin and was someone that knew the guts and made their system situp and bark(sometimes literally!). . Code bloat has become fantastic. Peter the folloing messages may be of interest to you. < ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- < < < ----- Transcript of session follows ----- <553 lyndale-486.-. config error: mail loops back to me (MX problem?) <554 ... Local configuration error The rest of the crowd may be interested in this. > a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least > 640K (or lately, 32Mb). 96MB is what I just put into mine. Corel 7 _flies_! ...but, it's hard to unlearn habits. I still find myself deleting <1K text files to "save space". I don't program much anymore, but if I did, I suspect I'd still be trying to squeeze a few bytes out here and there. With memory and HDD's so cheap, tho', and the intense pressure in the software market, it's simply not economically feasible to shave bytes. Also, a lot of the bloat is not only in features ("PIM outputs next year's schedule in HTML for easy posting to the web -- now with finite element analysis of paperclips!"), but things such as clipart, which gets stuck on the hard drive, for convenience...even MSWorks comes with clipart, for Pete's sake. Everything comes with 20 fonts (reminds me of an English restaurant: everything with chips) and a tutorial. From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jan 10 12:53:39 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <199801102010.MAA09352@mx5.u.washington.edu> > Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to > a Win95 system running Word97. ...but try wordstar on a Win95 system! (Actually, I still sell a few 386 systems as dedicated, cheap systems for word processing.) From msf at redhat.com Sat Jan 10 14:25:16 1998 From: msf at redhat.com (Michael Fulbright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: VAX11 programming book Message-ID: I saw a Boox by Tom somebody (sorry, forgot last name) on Vax-11 programming and assembly language at Barnes&Noble for $6. Its a big hard cover book. It was in the discount stack, if anyone is interested I'd get it and ship it at cost. You might want to check your local B&N and see if they can order it at that cost too. Michael Fulbright msf@redhat.com From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sat Jan 10 15:27:05 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Clock (off topic) Message-ID: <199801102127.WAA29175@mbox.queen.it> At 13:29 09/01/98 -0800, Kip Crosby wrote: >Between Christmas and New Year's I was cleaning out my mother's house and >found a Texas Instruments TI-71, complete with its docs and warranty card. >This is a small, line-powered digital clock. Still works fine. > >What interests me here is that I recall hearing an unsupported contention, >years ago, that this was the _first_ commodity digital clock that used >seven-segment displays instead of flippers. Can anyone confirm or deny? Yes, more or less the "nostalgic taste" is more or less the same with all the '70 's innovations. I recall my first electronic watch: it was one of those black TI with red plastic display. Because of it's strong energy consumption, I had to replace the cells every year. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From rws at ais.net Sat Jan 10 17:45:59 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? Message-ID: Hi everybody. First off, let me ask- does anyone else have a Model II? I've been working on mine recently and I can't get it to work. When I got it the CRT was loose and rattling around the case and the power and reset switches were broken apart. I got these things sorted out and powered it up to get a screen filled with hash. It seems to roll around the screen and no characters are visible, just hash. I put a test clip on the Z80 and found very little activity. The only pin toggling is the clock. All of the address, data, and most of the control bus lines and either low or (apparently) tri-stated. I checked the BUSRQ* line to see if maybe something was asking for the bus and it was high. The BUSAK* output is low, however. Shorting NMI* to ground has no effect whatsoever. After it's been on for a while, turned off and right back on again, the screen remains blank. I changed out the Z80 for a known good one with no effect. I happened to note, however, that the computer generates lots of TVI, and the pattern changes during reset. If anyone has any suggestions, they would be most welcome. Also, if anyone has any schematics for this thing, that would help too. (Alternatively, if you know that a certain part is the same as the Model I, III, or 4, let me know as I have the schematics and working examples of these.) Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 10 20:08:53 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 In-Reply-To: <199801102010.MAA24369@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980110200853.490f7a78@intellistar.net> At 01:49 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >> a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least >> 640K (or lately, 32Mb). > >96MB is what I just put into mine. Corel 7 _flies_! > >...but, it's hard to unlearn habits. I still find myself deleting <1K text >files to "save space". I don't program much anymore, but if I did, I >suspect I'd still be trying to squeeze a few bytes out here and there. > How right you are! I just bought some old 1976-77 copies of byte magazine today and was looking at the prices. Wow, $195 for an 8K memory board! It's no wonder we strived so hard to shave bytes! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 10 20:22:37 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Rescued two old systems today. Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980110202237.45e722ba@intellistar.net> I went to a hamfest today and picked up two systems that "AREN'T GOING BACK HOME". One is a Rubicon II and the other is a Tandy 6000 HD. The Rubicon uses 2 floppy drives and I think runs CPM. The Tandy is running Xenix (sp?) and has a 8 inch floppy drive and 15Mb hard drive. Can anyone tell me anything about these? How rare? When they were made? If they have any value? etc. Joe From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 18:43:51 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: VAXstation 2000 question Message-ID: OK, the question of the moment is how do I connect a console to a VAXstation 2000? Is it the plug with arrows pointing in opposite directions or do I need a special cable? I'm assuming for a terminal I can just use a laptop running a comm package that does VT100 emulation. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 10 19:58:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: linux Message-ID: <199801110158.AA07101@world.std.com> Pete, Have to send this on list as your address bounces. from "Richard W. Schauer" at Jan 10, 98 05:45:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/aefb258d/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 10 20:51:58 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Anyone ever heard of an Amigo? Message-ID: I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting design for its time. The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M master disks with it as well. It powers up and on the screen it says: V.10 BOOT Insert system diskette in lower drive. I can hear the drive spinning as if its trying to boot from the disk but none of the system disks I have seem to work. Perhaps they are bad, or the drive heads need cleaning. What I really want to know is if anyone has ever seen or worked with one of these, and if you've got any information on it. Thanks! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 10 21:33:42 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Anyone ever heard of an Amigo? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is > something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting > design for its time. > > The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was > simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with > integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard > on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm > assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT > keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to > the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got > a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies > with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M > master disks with it as well. > > It powers up and on the screen it says: > > V.10 BOOT Insert system diskette in lower drive. > > I can hear the drive spinning as if its trying to boot from the disk but > none of the system disks I have seem to work. Perhaps they are bad, or > the drive heads need cleaning. Sam, if you are ever able to 'proof' one of your system disks, I would love to have a copy to add to the archive. I have been after one of those suckers for years! - don > What I really want to know is if anyone has ever seen or worked with one > of these, and if you've got any information on it. > > Thanks! > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 21:54:47 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. Message-ID: I got back from the Portland sale, pretty cool. Seems like most of the people there were Hams, with some possible camara buffs. Most people looking at the computers were interested in stuff for modern systems. There were at least four other people there into the classics though. I went a bit crazy, and ended up with the following: PDP-11/44: Rack 1: 2 RL02's and what appears to be the connections for terminals Rack 2: CPU, dual floppies (8" I think), those funny little tape drives I've heard mentioned, and a Battery Backup I'm questioning the identity of these two, it's how they were labled, but they don't have a DEC nameplate. PDP-11/23: 8" disk and 20Mb HD PDP-11/23: 5.25" disk and 20Mb HD Kaypro II: I'm hoping the floppies are in good shape, I've really been wanting to get one of these. VAXstation 2000 S-100 bus cards: ~6 floppy controllers, ~1 I/O controller, a lot of RAM cards Q-Bus cards: ESDI floppy controller (YES!!!), 2 8Mb RAM cards, a whole pile that looked interesting and I honestly don't have any idea what they are. I think at least a couple are for a MircoPDP-11, and I'm wondering if one isn't a CPU for the MicroPDP-11. I'll probably have questions on what some of these are later, thankfully a couple days ago I found a pretty good Excel Spreadsheet on the net that will hopefully help me to identify them! A shrinkwraped copy of CP/M for the Rainbow 100, one of the manuals and another expansion unit for the Tek workstation I picked up a couple days ago, and maybe one or two other minor items I can't think of now. What can I say I'm pooped, I got my Dad to go, so I could use his Suburban, but I didn't think about how little he can lift nowdays. If it wasn't for Jim Willing, and the guy selling the stuff helping I don't think I'd have gotten the Rack with the 11/40 CPU in the truck. Unfortunately we couldn't figure out how to get the CPU out of the rack :^( I've gotten everything except the 11/40 out of his truck, that's going to have to wait. Unfortuntaly it's starting to snow, so it's probably going to wait until next weekend. No idea if anything works, I'm going to start playing tonite after I get done taking a break. As for the place having the sale, it was incredible, piles of old computers, tons of S-100 bus cards and computers. O-Scopes, ham junk, old camera equipment, etc., etc., etc. Of course to my thinking the prime stuff was was the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 11/730, with those around it was hard to see anything else. I'd have liked to get the VAX, but in all honesty now that I've got the /44 I think I'll stick to MicroVaxes, they're easier to move. I passed up a couple of Bell & Howell Apples (the black ones), they were trashed and didn't have the floppies, I'd have loved them for my Apple collection, but they were to far gone. I really should have picked up a VT220 or one of the other terminals that they had. They had a lot of Televideo stuff, but I didn't recognize what it was. BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rainbow or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboards in sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but the weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( Well, that's it for now, I want to start checking stuff out! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From red at bears.org Sat Jan 10 22:13:44 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > PDP-11/44: > Rack 1: 2 RL02's and what appears to be the connections for terminals > Rack 2: CPU, dual floppies (8" I think), those funny little tape That was you? I stood there for a minute, watching you as you were trying to get the CPU box out of the rack and thinking, "Damn, just a little too late." (: > S-100 bus cards: ~6 floppy controllers, ~1 I/O controller, a lot of RAM cards S-100 was before my time, and so I really don 't know much, but I squirrelled away a SCSI card, Motorola 68k processor card, am '8 i/o' card, a winchester controller, and a couple of cards with multiple Z80s on in case I should hear from anybody here who wants them. They're marked $5 each and I plan on going back down again tomorrow, this time with my father, if anybody wants to holler at me to grab any of these cards. > Q-Bus cards: ESDI floppy controller (YES!!!), 2 8Mb RAM cards, a whole pile I skipped some with 50 pin headers, not knowing whether they were the mythical SCSI cards some people here are anguishing over.. if someone wants to send me some identifying mark to check for, I'll grab them. > figure out how to get the CPU out of the rack :^( (: > BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rainbow > or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboards in > sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but the > weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( I'd wondered about that myself. BTW, if you'd checked the stickers, you'd have seen the Rainbows (had a Rainbow 100 Plus, too) included keyboards and monitors for the $20 asking price. All in all, the pricing was not outstanding one way or the other. Not low, not exorbitant. What you might expect from someone trying to run a more-or-less successful business. I wish more of you all could have gotten to go. The stuff I was seeing was great stuff, but stuff I only recognise by name. If I actually knew what I was doing, I don't think I'd have hesitated to pick up a lot of the stuff there, knowing someone would want it. It was that good. (: Cromemco System 1, 2, and 3s, an Apollo DSP80, Vector 3s and 4s, one or two Tek bits, logs of Xerox and Televideo stuff, several S100 systems, and a 'Zorba CPM' (some sort of Kaypro clone, apparently). All was in good, if not excellent physical condition. When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro 2000, and DG One I saw. (: ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 22:39:39 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >That was you? I stood there for a minute, watching you as you were trying >to get the CPU box out of the rack and thinking, "Damn, just a little too >late." (: At about that point I'd have just about sold it to you! I'm not looking forward to getting it out of the truck! I've got bum knees thanks to the military, and am feeling it tonight! >I skipped some with 50 pin headers, not knowing whether they were the >mythical SCSI cards some people here are anguishing over.. if someone >wants to send me some identifying mark to check for, I'll grab them. I think these were all 40 pin (yes, I was standing around counting a lot of pins). I'd hate to think there were some there and I missed them, as I really need on. Actually I'm hoping I've got one in the pile I did get, but I know I didn't. Still an ESDI controller is better than what I had! >I'd wondered about that myself. BTW, if you'd checked the stickers, you'd >have seen the Rainbows (had a Rainbow 100 Plus, too) included keyboards >and monitors for the $20 asking price. Arghhh, where the *bleep* were the monitors and keyboards? It's a good thing I didn't see that, we were full! >When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro ^^^^^^^ Oh, great, make me kick myself! I was going to pick up the HP and forgot it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From msf at redhat.com Sat Jan 10 22:39:34 1998 From: msf at redhat.com (Michael Fulbright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rainbow > > or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboards in > > sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but the > > weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( > > I'd wondered about that myself. BTW, if you'd checked the stickers, you'd > have seen the Rainbows (had a Rainbow 100 Plus, too) included keyboards > and monitors for the $20 asking price. > I used on of these as a freshman in college 'way back' in 1985. It was based on the PDP-11 architecture. I can't remember exactly how it differed from, say, a PDP 11/34. I programmed both from Fortran, and I recall messing with .OVL files or something to get around the 64k text size. Oh man, that seems a long time ago. BTW, I really want a PDP 11 myself. I figure all interesting things in the history of computer were done on PDP 11's. As I understand C, Unix, and even Bill Gates himself wrote Basic for the PDP 11. I'm just overwhelmed by the size and what I would have to do to keep it going. I'll stick to collecting 8 bit machines for now. Anyone know where to get old Ohio Scientific machines? Michael Fulbright msf@redhat.com From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Jan 10 23:18:43 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work! Help! Message-ID: <000301bd1e50$87eb3e80$54987c0a@office1> This weekend, I decided to replace the rotting foam in my RK05 drives. BTW, self-adhesive weather striping seems to fit well. Home Depot carries one in white (3/8" square) that works for the disk pack air intake. There is also a black one, 7/16" x 3/4" that works for the foam between the blower motor and the card cage. Anyway, I digress. When I finished replacing the foam, I made sure that I vacuumed up any foam particles. I powered-up my 11/34a, and now neither drive gives me an "On Cylinder" light. AFAIR, inserting a disk pack and pressing "load" would produce a distinctive hum, indicating that the spindle motor is starting. Now, I get no hum. Looking inside, I don't see the spindle running. Also, for the first time, one drive popped its circuit breaker. It's almost like both spindles are stuck. They're not, though; I checked (While looking into the spindle motor and spinning the disk spindle I can see the motor fan move.) I did not disconnect any wires during this process. Any clues? BTW, what's the little red switch on the power supply board for? Thanks for the help, again. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 10 23:48:02 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified Message-ID: Some how I don't think that the two PDP-11's that were supposed to be /23's are, but at least they do appear to be PDP-11's. So my question is what is a M9192? The list I have shows it as being a "DUAL HEIGHT CPU BRD", which is "real" informative! According to the list I've got the 23's CPU's have different numbers. They both have 256KW of 18-bit memory. This brings up an interesting question, how many bytes are there in in a Word when you're talking PDP-11's? Since it's 18 my guess would be 2 with parity bits. While I'm asking I've got some other cards that I can't identify, I think that they're for PDP's and not VAX's. Does anyone recognize any of these, or have a good place on the net for me to look? SCD-RQD11/EC -- this one had 6 connectors for ribbon cables M8059-KP -- I believe it's 64k, is it for PDP? M3104 DHV11 -- It's got two ribbon connectors, by guess is it's for adding other terminals. I seem to have a pair. Distributed Logic Corp. DQ342 -- no idea, two ribbon connectors Plessey P/N 70590-100A -- looks to be a RAM board Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shield at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Jan 11 00:02:05 1998 From: shield at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (shield@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Hayes modem installation Message-ID: <199801110602.XAA23592@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> I was wondering if anyone knew how to install a Hayes 9600 modem into an XT (Ogivar Tech.). There are a MASSIVE 21 megs in the hard drive, and a 5.25 " drive. This is just a learning computer for a friend who will buy up if this one can work. I'm on a non-graphical internet account and the XT has a program already loaded on it to dial out, but the modem isn't being recognized. All I've done is physically put it into the slot ( it fits perfectly inside) and I haven't touched any switches or the autoexec.bat at all. I have no idea it those things are what I'd need to do anyway. Could someone help me out? Keep the information in English, not tech-ese, I'm still learning too! Thank you! From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 00:53:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > Cromemco System 1, 2, and 3s, an Apollo DSP80, Vector 3s and 4s, one or > two Tek bits, logs of Xerox and Televideo stuff, several S100 systems, and > a 'Zorba CPM' (some sort of Kaypro clone, apparently). All was in good, if > not excellent physical condition. > > When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro > 2000, and DG One I saw. (: Geez, pick up a Cromemco System 1, the Apollo and a Vector. Also, the Zorba and one of the Xerox machines. That's some cool stuff. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From red at bears.org Sun Jan 11 01:03:12 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Geez, pick up a Cromemco System 1, the Apollo and a Vector. Also, the > Zorba and one of the Xerox machines. That's some cool stuff. It's all kind of out of my interest range, though. If it were all super cheap, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I already feel guilty at the space my still-small collection takes, and with the Zorba marked at $150 (the only one of those machines that was marked), you'll forgive my hesitance. /: ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 01:12:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Geez, pick up a Cromemco System 1, the Apollo and a Vector. Also, the > > Zorba and one of the Xerox machines. That's some cool stuff. > > It's all kind of out of my interest range, though. If it were all super > cheap, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I already feel guilty at the space my > still-small collection takes, and with the Zorba marked at $150 (the only > one of those machines that was marked), you'll forgive my hesitance. /: Oh. Well in that case I'd definitely skip the Zorba. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From rws at ais.net Sun Jan 11 02:31:55 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: ........ > What is the reset pin doing at the Z80? And what is the WAIT* pin doing. > I wonder if the CPU is either stuck in the reset state, or in a wait > state. RESET* is low for about 500 ms after power-on, then goes high. WAIT* is always high. > I'm pretty sure that if the CPU is halted, it continues to produce > refresh addresses, so you'd see some activity on the address lines and on > RFSH*. Can't hurt to check, though. RFSH* is at a solid 1.4v, and doesn't move with a pull-up. > I assume the clock input is going high enough - from memory a TTL output > needs a pull-up to drive a Z80. CLOCK is swinging from 0.2 to 4.8v at 4MHz. > You really need to be able to distinguish 'Low' from 'Tristate'. If > you're using a 'scope, then pull the input to the Vcc (+5V) line through > a resistor equal to the 'scopes input impedance (1M for most 'scopes, 10M > if you're using a *10 probe) so that the trace floats at 2.5V and > indicates highs and lows. Very few logic analysers (the HP LogicDart is > an exception) have high/low/undefined inputs, alas. Well, I did almost as you said. I had a 47k resistor laying handy on the bench, so I used it. Part of the address bus is low (0.2 or 0.3v), part is tri-stated. Data bus lines D0-D2 and D7 are at a firm 1.4v. D3 is tri-stated and can be pulled to 5v. D4-D6 are low and pull-up to 1.4v. Now, here's where it gets interesting. NMI* had an irregular pulse train coming into it- at the same time the display was flickering. I shut off and turned on again, and the display was blank and NMI* was high. INT*, WAIT*, BUSRQ*, and RESET* are high, BUSAK* is low, and HALT*, MREQ*, IORQ*, RD*, WR*, M1*, and RFSH* are all at a solid 1.4v. (???) > Do you have a schematic of the gate-array version of the M4 CPU board? > I've got an M4 here with said board, and it's the only part of the system > that's not covered in the M3 Techref (which I also have), so I am looking > for a copy/scanned in version of the diagram. > > I would buy a Model 4 technical manual, but Tandy in the UK are totally > clueless and assured me that there was no such machine as a 'TRS-80' :-) I have a 6-page schematic for the CPU, and it shows 4 PAL's. It is dated 23 Feb 1983. Contact me privately and we'll work out how to get it from here to there. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 02:37:36 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Console Cables Message-ID: OK, pardon my myriad of questions tonite, but I'm learning something totally foriegn here. I've done some hunting, and it appears that I was right, the pair of small PDP-11's aren't 23's their 73's. I wan't to see if I can get them to boot, however, I'm wondering how I should connect the terminal. Do I use a straight serial cable 9600 8-N-1, null modem cable, or what. I'm already getting the impression that I'm going to end up building a cable for the VAXstation 2000. Based on what I've been able to find out on that. Hopefully the snow tonite isn't to bad, I don't think I've got any spare connectors laying around right now. Probably a good thing, I'd be tempted to build the cable right now :^) Is this the correct penout for the VS2000 console cable? 2<->3, 3<->2, 7<->7 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From adam at merlin.net.au Sat Jan 10 05:34:30 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Anyone ever heard of an Amigo? Message-ID: <199801111034.VAA29426@arthur.merlin.net.au> >I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is >something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting >design for its time. > >The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was >simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with >integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard >on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm >assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT >keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to >the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got >a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies >with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M >master disks with it as well. I have something called an Amigo, made (although the name is hard to read) by Surwave. Mind you, it could well be a Surwave made by Amigo. :) It also has the z80 and the 6502 on the mother board, but it is not an all-in-one unit. Indeed, it looks a bit like the Aplle ][. I have done what research that I could, and so far have learnt that it was a Korean Apple ][ clone, that could run cp/m or Apple software. They were made in the very early eighties, and were imported into Australia via a person who still resides in Adelaide. I have tracked down some information about him, but have yet to find the person himself. They were quite popular here, but few survived - mine didn't, as it won't show anything on the screen. I am considering getting it repaired, but I don't know enough to do it myself. Anyway, I imagine that your computer is another model by the same people - try an Apple boot disk and see what happens. :) If you want I can continue to try and track down the importer. I know he stopped importing computers and went into the computer embroidery business, which does give me something to work with, anyway. I had given up as I had covered almost everyone I could find who had anything to do with old Apples, but there are still a couple of loose leads. I'm sure he would know about any other systems made by the company. Adam. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 06:48:30 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:11 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? Message-ID: <01bd1e8f$37f06560$3868420c@magnum> Hi all, Is there an official name for all various computer packages? What I trying to find is how to call a computer that is just a keyboard that you plug on the TV (a la C64)versus a computer that has everything attached (TRS 80 mod 4) versus a PC style where components are separate. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/a4b50ff4/attachment.html From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 06:51:54 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: What are the firsts? first video game first TV video game first personal computer (I think I know that one) first portable computer first laptop first GUI first OS etc... It would be interesting to compile a list of first with their date of appearance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/8700e117/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 09:53:27 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111095327.39cf8212@intellistar.net> At 11:13 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: > >When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro >2000, and DG One I saw. (: > > What were they wanting for the HP IPC? If you don't want it, I'll take it off your hands. BE SURE to look around for any external HP disk drives! Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 10:53:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111105312.480fef7c@intellistar.net> At 06:51 AM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: >What are the firsts? >first video game >first TV video game >first personal computer (I think I know that one) >first portable computer >first laptop >first GUI >first OS >etc... >It would be interesting to compile a list of first with their date of appearance. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. Wow, those questions should stir up a hornet's nest! I'll in my two cents worth. Personal Computer: IBM called the 5100 a personal computer and also a portable computer. I think they called it a personal computer since it did not normally support any remote terminals and only supported one user at a time. the 5100 was IBM's first "personal computer" but I don't know if it came before or after PCs from other manufacturers. Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected glass screen and there was no protective case for it, the keyboard or the rear connectors. Even the early KayPros and Compaqs were much more portable than a 5100! To me at least, it's very questionable wheather or not the 5100 should be considered a "Portable Computer". The HP 85 was built similarly but at least HP provided a case as an option. Joe From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Jan 11 10:01:11 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: XT Parts Message-ID: <01bd1eaa$232f06c0$LocalHost@hotze> Hello. From what I've heard, XT's practally line the streets in some places. But, not here. :-( But, I've got most of an XT here. If anyone has some spare parts, that they're willing to donate/sell, than that would be great. What I need: a HDD, as after testing the one that came with mine on 2 machines, it doesn't work. It sounds bad, too. Preferably, one that's a 10MB, like the origional IBM. I don't have any SW, so it would be handy if you could just take one out. But, if not, I can try other things. A Controller, one that can handle Big Blue's origional 360K A second one, that can handle the above hard drive. (May not be needed) A video card. I need to figure out what's wrong with my XT monitor, as it doesn't seem to be working. But, I could just use my CGA. And, yes, I'm sure that I need all these. I've tried every part, and none of them work. I tested my monitor on a friends CGA graphics card (but set to mono), and the picture was CLEAR. I'm willing to pay for these, as they'd make my first working classic. And, I know that beggers can't be choosers. From mhyde at kconline.com Sun Jan 11 05:06:46 1998 From: mhyde at kconline.com (adam hyde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: wanted for tandy 1400 Message-ID: <34B8A7A7.E148B0E4@kconline.com> i need an adapter and hard disk for a tandy 1400 laptop From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 11 10:11:26 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: DEC Pro 350 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980111101126.00b4c450@pc> I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet. Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 10:31:05 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. Message-ID: <199801111631.AA21708@world.std.com> <> > BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rai <> > or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboar <> > sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but th <> > weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^( The PRO350 is a member of the PDP-11 family. The processor is the F-11, that's the same one as the 11/23 and they could carry up to 1meg of ram. The bus physically is unique to the pro but it is similar to q-bus in signals and timing. As to options: RX50 floppy RD50/51/52 hard disks(rd51 10meg was common) various memory options APUs for 8088 or z80s eithernet interface Color graphics Operating system was POS and was a modified version of RSX and is a multitasking os. RT-11 was also available. Many programming languages were available. Venix is available on the net for this box. Speed, the PRO350 was slightly faster than the 11/23 though the disk interfaces were slower. It did make a good workstation. Versions, There was a PRO380 which used the J-11 (11/73 11/83) processor which was faster and also the design carried more memory. Same box. I have one and they are neat small machines. You need a monitor and keyboard to make it complete. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 10:31:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified Message-ID: <199801111631.AA21754@world.std.com> You missed calculators and there are rough catagories: First eletronic calc first pocket calc HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain. First programable calc Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 adam@merlin.net.au wrote: > >I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is > >something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting > >design for its time. > > I have something called an Amigo, made (although the name is hard to > read) by Surwave. Mind you, it could well be a Surwave made by Amigo. :) > It also has the z80 and the 6502 on the mother board, but it is not an > all-in-one unit. Indeed, it looks a bit like the Aplle ][. I have done > Anyway, I imagine that your computer is another model by the same people > - try an Apple boot disk and see what happens. :) Adam, what you are describing is of course an Apple clone. What I've got here is a straight CP/M machine. Thanks to Hans Pufal's Comprehensive Computer Catalogue (http://www.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc) I've tracked down the date of manufacture as November 1982. And I forgot to mention the name of the manufacturer was on the motherboard (as well as on Hans' page). It's Ontel. I actually got two motherboards with this. One is a revision A and the other (the one actually installed) is revision F. This is cool because I have a stash of spare parts I guess. Still can't get it to boot but I guess I'll put it away with the others until my sabbatical. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jan 11 11:15:25 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 10, 98 09:48:02 pm Message-ID: <9801111715.AA19671@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/9f792cf2/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 11:16:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? In-Reply-To: <01bd1e8f$37f06560$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > Hi all, Is there an official name for all various computer packages? > What I trying to find is how to call a computer that is just a keyboard > that you plug on the TV (a la C64)versus a computer that has everything > attached (TRS 80 mod 4) versus a PC style where components are separate. For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU a "console". Basically, anything with an integrated CPU, keyboard and video output I call a console. I don't tend to think of things like the Apple ][ as "consoles" because they didn't use a TV as their monitor by default, which the above systems generally did (there goes my Apple ][ bias again). But really, the Apple ][ fits my description of "console". The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would be "computers" because they have all the basic adjuncts to define an entire computer in the most generic sense of the word (CPU, keyboard, display, storage). Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, disk drives, perhaps a mouse... Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people prefer to refer to them as "mini's". Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 11 11:31:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: No debates necessary on some of these as there were definite firsts. For instance: > first video game "Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan Bushnell. > first TV video game The Odyssey. Came out in 1972. It used wafer carthridges for games that weren't actually ROMs but actually just "patches" to re-configure the console to throw different sprites onto the screen. > first personal computer (I think I know that one) This is harder to define. The question really is, who's definition of "personal" are we referring to? Everyone's got their own. Some people consider certain mainframes to have been "personal computers" because you could actually sit down at the main console and have the computer all to yourself. If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few months. > first portable computer Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a PDP-8 across a bridge some years ago. She got funny looks, but she "ported" her computer elsewhere. However, I believe this one goes to the IBM 5100. However, did I hear grumblings of something portable pre-dating even the 5100? Like something from HP in the early 70s? > first laptop Unless you had a huge lap, the only computer that could comfortably fit there was, I believe, the Epson HX-20. It had a keyboard, display and storage integrated into one unit which is the same size and weight as some notebook computers today. > first GUI Correct my details if I'm wrong but I believe the OS was dubbed "Smalltalk" and was developed by Xerox at the Palo Alto Research Center in 1972. Steve Jobs got his Lisa inspiration from his visit to PARC in, I believe, 1979? > first OS Now this is another tough one. First you need to define "operating system". But I won't even speculate a guess here because there are people far more knowledgeable than I of the time period when the first "OS" would have been created. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 13:40:44 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111631.AA21877@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111134044.3a1fcb16@intellistar.net> At 11:31 AM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you >man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20 >years to things like old surplus missle computers, homebrewed systems and >PDP-8s and the like. Prior to the IBM abortion pc meant personally owned >and was not based on what it was but who owned it. Personally owned >computers was a new thing starting in the late 60s to early 70s. Around >72-73 it was possible to buy a used PDP-8 or CM2000 for a few thousand >dollars. I know in December of 72 I almost bought a Cincinati Millicron >CM2000 for the offered price of $2000(big bucks then) with 8k of core, >serial line card and 6port muxed serial card. > I don't think a Cincinati Millicron would hardly be considered a "Personal Computer" no matter what the number of owners. > >Define portable as I'd seen totables in the late 70s. One very nice one >was an expanded EVK68 board in a classy wood case with a small crt and >keyboard. > >One that comes to mind was the HP(5100?) complete packaged system with >tape for storage and basic and GPIB for external interface. The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had BASIC or APL or both! > Joe From pvhp at forte.com Sun Jan 11 11:52:52 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9801111752.AA23563@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Firsts Allison J Parent wrote: >You missed calculators and there are rough catagories: > >First eletronic calc > >first pocket calc > >HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain. > >First programable calc Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 (which is not a great book: much content was apparently largely dictated by the PR departments of a few Silicon Valley companies and thrown together much as a newspaper article would be. It nontheless contains some interesting photos and bibliographic references and I think was the result of a rushed editorial deadline (why would a publisher rush a history book?)). > >This is real old likely in the late 40s early 50s and was likely a >machine monitor system to load/save programs. Even the PDP-1 had an OS >to timeshare multiple users. You may have to be more specific as to tthe >type or style of OS as there are several and the appearance of each >corosponds to emerging concepts in computing. There are references to the operation of the IBM/Harvard Mark I (programming loops were constructed by literally looping the input tape back on itself e.g.) It could be argued that such an early machine was not a stored program computer hence could not even support an OS. If however one does not limit oneself to only software notions of OS then the "Start" button could be considered to be an OS - implemented in hardware. I personally don't know much about the early Sperry Rand or Manchester->Ferranti computers (first commercial computers) since so much of the widely available literary records are dominated by IBM's history, but certainly by the time of the IBM 705 (mid 50's) there were OSes. Few of the early ones were time-sharing and many were not even "full-duplex". Peter Prymmer From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 13:51:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? In-Reply-To: References: <01bd1e8f$37f06560$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111135102.47f7070c@intellistar.net> At 09:16 AM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > >> Hi all, Is there an official name for all various computer packages? >> What I trying to find is how to call a computer that is just a keyboard >> that you plug on the TV (a la C64)versus a computer that has everything >> attached (TRS 80 mod 4) versus a PC style where components are separate. > >For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU >a "console". Basically, anything with an integrated CPU, keyboard and >video output I call a console. I don't tend to think of things like the >Apple ][ as "consoles" because they didn't use a TV as their monitor by >default, which the above systems generally did (there goes my Apple ][ >bias again). But really, the Apple ][ fits my description of "console". > >The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would >be "computers" because they have all the basic adjuncts to define an >entire computer in the most generic sense of the word (CPU, keyboard, >display, storage). > >Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a >system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, >disk drives, perhaps a mouse... What would you call a HP Integral? It has screen, printer, keyboard (detachable but stores on the unit), disk drive, CPU, memory, etc in one unit. But also has a HP-IB cable connection and can be connected to upto 14 peripherals including printers, instruments, more floppy or hard drives, etc. I don't think you can clearly differentiate some of these machines. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 13:58:49 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> At 09:31 AM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > >> Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: > >No debates necessary on some of these as there were definite firsts. For >instance: > >> first video game > >"Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may >correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan >Bushnell. > >> first TV video game > >The Odyssey. Came out in 1972. It used wafer carthridges for games that >weren't actually ROMs but actually just "patches" to re-configure the >console to throw different sprites onto the screen. > >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) > >This is harder to define. The question really is, who's definition of >"personal" are we referring to? Everyone's got their own. Some people >consider certain mainframes to have been "personal computers" because you >could actually sit down at the main console and have the computer all to >yourself. > >If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video >output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed >at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your >own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ >was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few >months. I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was released in 1975. Joe> From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:32:06 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111631.AA21877@world.std.com> Message-ID: > If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you > man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20 > years to things like old surplus missle computers, homebrewed systems and > PDP-8s and the like. Prior to the IBM abortion pc meant personally owned > and was not based on what it was but who owned it. Personally owned > computers was a new thing starting in the late 60s to early 70s. Around > 72-73 it was possible to buy a used PDP-8 or CM2000 for a few thousand > dollars. I know in December of 72 I almost bought a Cincinati Millicron > CM2000 for the offered price of $2000(big bucks then) with 8k of core, > serial line card and 6port muxed serial card. The PDP-8/s (a weird, low-cost, serial version of the PDP-8) was the first machine that really could be owned by anyone with the cash ($10,000, according to the announcement ad in Scientific American). DEC had one at each sales office for cash and carry sales. I would not be suprised if at least a few engineers that made it big in 1960s military contracting purchased some on a whim. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:39:41 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > first video game > > "Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may > correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan > Bushnell. Spacewar for the PDP-1 is the granddaddy. Still runs, once a year (hopefully, if the West Coast computer museum keeps up the tradition). Then I suppose there were probably simulations run for the SAGE system in the 1950s, but they probably were not fun and do not count. > If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video > output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed > at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your > own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ > was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few > months. When did the Sphere-1s start shipping? My boards have 1975 dates on them. The Sphere-1s were also integrated systems, with a standard setup having the 6800 CPU board, a video board, 16K RAM, and a serial interface board. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 12:57:26 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? Message-ID: <01bd1ec2$c2713650$d169420c@magnum> But then where would the mac (toaster style) fit? Computer or system? I am not sure the term computer to differenciate the box styles is adequate since they are all basically "Computers" I guess what I'm trying to find is a term to differenciate the packaging of computers. Also consoles is used for video games that plugs on the TV and would cause confusion. System is a pretty broad designation that can describe a lost of things. Am I getting picky or what? Maybe we need to invent some terms a la jargon in order to differentiate the various types of packaging. >For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU >a "console". Basically, anything with an integrated CPU, keyboard and >video output I call a console. I don't tend to think of things like the >Apple ][ as "consoles" because they didn't use a TV as their monitor by >default, which the above systems generally did (there goes my Apple ][ >bias again). But really, the Apple ][ fits my description of "console". > >The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would >be "computers" because they have all the basic adjuncts to define an >entire computer in the most generic sense of the word (CPU, keyboard, >display, storage). > >Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a >system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, >disk drives, perhaps a mouse... > >Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people >prefer to refer to them as "mini's". > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:44:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9801111752.AA23563@forte.com> Message-ID: > >First programable calc > > Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to > the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel > 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit > shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to > Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: > A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 Wang's first (or quite near their first) product was an all electronic calculator, introduced in the late 1960s. They are big, but could be lugged around. The best part about them is the core memory! No microprocessors here (in fact, it may be discrete transistors - I better open the thing up a check). William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 12:53:03 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <01bd1e8f$b1e08580$3868420c@magnum> Message-ID: >> first portable computer > >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a >PDP-8 across a bridge some years ago. She got funny looks, but she >"ported" her computer elsewhere. However, I believe this one goes to the >IBM 5100. However, did I hear grumblings of something portable pre-dating >even the 5100? Like something from HP in the early 70s? Well, if you believe the Smithsonian's "Museum of American History" and I believe DEC's advertising this goes to one of the PDP's, I don't remember which one. I don't think it was a -8 or -11, and it's been over four years since I was last to the museum so my memory isn't the best. They showed the computer being in the back of a convertible IIRC, and actually had the computer there at the musuem. Big sucker. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 13:07:31 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1ec4$2a851530$d169420c@magnum> I meant by the original posting to try to gather a list of firsts. Any definitions of first are acceptable and if they can be extended to familly of hardware, software, packaging gimmicks etc. is OK. What I found interesting in the question is more in the order of finding out how long an idea has been out there and how many categories can be found. I see a lot of questions about defining such and such term I guess it is more fun to find out what YOU understand by the words OS, Personal computer, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Francois Auradon To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 6:18 AM Subject: Firsts Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates: What are the firsts? first video game first TV video game first personal computer (I think I know that one) first portable computer first laptop first GUI first OS etc... It would be interesting to compile a list of first with their date of appearance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/2df42098/attachment.html From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:53:02 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111095327.39cf8212@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge > you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold. That is because they are, at least to the test engineering world. These people spend large amounts for just about everything ($500 power supplies, $3000 signal generators, etc.), so a $20 cable is nothing to them. The dealers know they can get a large amount for HPIB cables, so they do. William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 12:55:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Need PDP processor card identified In-Reply-To: <9801111715.AA19671@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 10, 98 09:48:02 pm Message-ID: >2. I think you have a M8192, not a M9192. A M8192 is a KDJ11A, the >OEM/upgrade version of the PDP-11/73 CPU. I goofed on this one, it is the M8192. It makes sense that its an OEM version, since these were OEM'd by SMS so they really aren't true PDP-11/73's I guess, but I'm hoping they will be easier to get up and running than the /44. >It seems you've already found Ron Copley's "field guide", but the >real definitive answer for DEC boards is a 4000-page list of options >I have on my desk at work :-) No, I haven't. But now that I know it exists I've got it, took me a few minutes searching and I've got it. I found was what was supposed to be a stock list for one of the resellers, and this is what I had been using. It's a very complete list, and had all the DEC MicroVAX stuff that I've got on it I believe, but it's lacking on the PDP-11 cards. I found the list at http://www.minicomputer.com/ >> Distributed Logic Corp. DQ342 -- no idea, two ribbon connectors > >What size ribbon connectors? If a 34-pin and a 20-pin, it's probably >a MFM hard drive controller. But Dilog made lots and lots of stuff >over the years, and I can never keep the numbers straight, so you may >have to describe the board a bit more before I recognize it. It's a 34-pin and a 10-pin. If it's a MFM controller doesn't sound like it's much use to me at this point. Especially if the ESDI controller will work. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 12:58:40 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: DEC Pro 350 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980111101126.00b4c450@pc> Message-ID: >I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it >fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet. >Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though. Ah, what does it take to get it talking to Mac's and Amiga's? I'm assuming if this can be done for the DEC Pro 350, I can do something simular with the 11/73 or a VAX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 12:57:03 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd1ec4$2a851530$d169420c@magnum> Message-ID: > I meant by the original posting to try to gather a list of firsts. So what? It is fun! Anyway, it has turned this list back on course (for a while there I was really getting sick of the off topic posts like Linux, PeeCees, God, etc.). Thank You. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 13:16:42 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1ec5$730d8b60$d169420c@magnum> >You missed calculators and there are rough catagories: > >First eletronic calc > >first pocket calc > >HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain. > >First programable calc Good point here thank you. By the way the list was not exhaustive pleas feel free to add anything and everything you want. > > > >If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you >man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20 What I meant by personal computer was computers mass produced for the home market. But the rest is still good. What was the first computer to enter the home (coming from the industry)? > >Define portable as I'd seen totables in the late 70s. One very nice one >was an expanded EVK68 board in a classy wood case with a small crt and >keyboard. My interpretation of portable is a computer that is meant to be moved from place to place fairly easilly: that means integrated monitor, disk drive (or tape player), a carrying handle (or two). > >One that comes to mind was the HP(5100?) complete packaged system with >tape for storage and basic and GPIB for external interface. > > >Not sure but it wasnt a dos based for sure. Tandy trs100 or the similar >NEC, Epson, and others. > > >Xerox PARC smalltalk > > >This is real old likely in the late 40s early 50s and was likely a >machine monitor system to load/save programs. Even the PDP-1 had an OS >to timeshare multiple users. You may have to be more specific as to tthe >type or style of OS as there are several and the appearance of each >corosponds to emerging concepts in computing. > >Allison > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 13:37:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801111937.AA05890@world.std.com> < I don't think a Cincinati Millicron would hardly be considered a <"Personal Computer" no matter what the number of owners. That specific machine was about the same size as a PDP-8e and about 60 pounds. For that era that was very compact and light. But personal it was as at that time it resided in my bedroom while I was trying to write some simple code via asr33/ptape. < The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 11, 98 10:55:57 am Message-ID: <9801111950.AA18441@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/be6392b8/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 13:51:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801111951.AA13298@world.std.com> <> own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ] <> was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few <> months. < <> >First programable calc <> <> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goe <> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the in <> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bi No, this was not the first by a long means. I vaguely remember a desktop HP job that was years earlier. There were designs that were RTL and utililogic and even earlier designs that were about the size of a desk drawer that were both totally electronic and to some extent programable. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 13:51:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801111951.AA13467@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 11, 98 02:51:16 pm Message-ID: <9801111955.AA19990@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/bfae48ab/attachment.ksh From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 14:31:30 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd1ecf$e646dff0$0100007f@magnum> >> > first video game >> >> "Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may >> correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan >> Bushnell. > >Spacewar for the PDP-1 is the granddaddy. Still runs, once a year >(hopefully, if the West Coast computer museum keeps up the tradition). Wouldn't that be the first computer game? I am not familliar with the PDP-1 but it sounds like a computer name. > From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 11 14:57:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <01bd1ec5$730d8b60$d169420c@magnum> Message-ID: <34B9321E.658FFAE4@cnct.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > What I meant by personal computer was computers mass produced for the home > market. But the rest is still good. What was the first computer to enter the > home (coming from the industry)? The Pet and the Apple II were advertisted from the beginning of 1977 on as home systems. Few units went there for quite a while, so the TRS-80 (later called Model One) was the first in quantity. Then again, I had a Digicomp I, the first "toy" computer. It was definitely not aimed at the business market back in the mid 19660's. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jan 11 14:57:50 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Tektronix 6130 Engineering Workstation In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy"'s message of Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:51:19 -0800 References: Message-ID: <199801112057.MAA17628@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > There is also a terminal with it, a "Ann Arbor XL Series" that connects via > a Serial line. Does anyone have any idea what kind of terminal this is? > It's very wierd, it's the only ASCII terminal that I've seen which is a > portrait-mode terminal! Is this some kind of VT-100 compatible or > something? The only thing I've ever seen that even comes close is some of > the old Macintosh monitors. It's probably a flavor of the Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal. I remember them as being in somewhat widespread use by Unix folks in the early-to-mid 1980s, their major feature being the number of lines of source you could fit on the screen. They pretty much fell out of favor across the mid-1980s with the proliferation of bit-mapped displays. -Frank McConnell From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 03:58:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <9801111752.AA23563@forte.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111035818.434fb73a@intellistar.net> At 01:44 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >First programable calc >> >> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to >> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel >> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit >> shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to >> Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: >> A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 > >Wang's first (or quite near their first) product was an all electronic >calculator, introduced in the late 1960s. They are big, but could be >lugged around. The best part about them is the core memory! No >microprocessors here (in fact, it may be discrete transistors - I better >open the thing up a check). > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > HP's first calculator, the 9100a, was introduced in 1967 or 68. It had no ICs, used core memories, and used logic gates made of diodes and resistors. It did have transistors but they were mainly used as amplifiers for the core memory. I guess it still qualifies as "solid state".) It was fully proggramable and used RPN. I have a 9100B with a 1969 date code. I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from about 1966. Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 04:02:37 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980111095327.39cf8212@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111040237.434ffc72@intellistar.net> At 01:53 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge >> you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold. > >That is because they are, at least to the test engineering world. These >people spend large amounts for just about everything ($500 power supplies, >$3000 signal generators, etc.), so a $20 cable is nothing to them. The >dealers know they can get a large amount for HPIB cables, so they do. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net $20 HA! Some of the dealers want $50+ plus for used ones around here. OTOH I have been given bunches of them and there are tons of them available. I just meant to warn him not to let them stick it to him for a cable or let the price of the cable stand in the way of buying the HP IPC. Joe > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 11:11:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111105312.480fef7c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 11, 98 10:53:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/fc64a88d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 10:53:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work! Help! In-Reply-To: <000301bd1e50$87eb3e80$54987c0a@office1> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 11, 98 00:18:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/579849c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 11:03:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? In-Reply-To: from "Richard W. Schauer" at Jan 11, 98 02:31:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/6d3c58c8/attachment.ksh From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 11 16:21:44 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Hayes modem installation Message-ID: <199801112229.OAA18464@mx4.u.washington.edu> > I was wondering if anyone knew how to install a Hayes 9600 modem into > an XT (Ogivar Tech.). This is slightly off-topic, so e-mail me privately and I'll tell you. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 11 15:53:50 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: XT Parts Message-ID: <199801112229.OAA03810@mx5.u.washington.edu> > What I need: > a HDD, as after testing the one that came with mine on 2 machines, it Who are you? I have lotsa XT stuff. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jan 11 16:14:26 1998 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Whatchamicallthem? Message-ID: <199801112229.OAA18465@mx4.u.washington.edu> I deal a _lot_ with new users, so my answers are a bit different. I use precise, non-standard (but descriptive) terminology. My goal is to employ labels such that non-users can understand instantly what I mean. > For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU > a "console". I call 'em a "keyboard", as that is what they look like. > The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would > be "computers" Me too. More precisely, "old-style computer" > > Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a > system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor, > disk drives, perhaps a mouse... I call the -- Monitor => Screen Case => System box I always stress that the 3 1/2" is called a "floppy ", because a surprising number of people think that they are "hard drives". I also see them commonly called "tapes" (and installing a program is commonly called "programming") > > Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people > prefer to refer to them as "mini's". I just call them computers -- newbies generally don't know the difference. (Besides, if you gave up your old stuff and all got PC's with Win95, you would have _real_ computers and get _real_ work done....snicker snicker.) (Quick! Now, I gotta change my e-mail address, lest I be buried under tons of irate e-mail...) manney@nwohio.com From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 16:38:03 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) > > I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was > released in 1975. Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) > Joe> ttfn srw From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 16:43:24 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> first portable computer > > > >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a > > Well, if you believe the Smithsonian's "Museum of American History" and I > believe DEC's advertising this goes to one of the PDP's, I don't remember > which one. I don't think it was a -8 or -11, and it's been over four years > since I was last to the museum so my memory isn't the best. They showed > the computer being in the back of a convertible IIRC, and actually had the > computer there at the musuem. Big sucker. Wasn't there a DEC ad showing a PDP-8 fitting in the trunk (boot, or is that a hood or bonnet?) of a VW bug? Would that qualify it as portable? > Zane ttyl srw From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 16:49:02 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:12 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111951.AA13467@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > first successful market venture Apple-II june-77 IIRC, that was April 77 (at the west coast computer faire.) You might also want to add the PET 2001 to this list... also April 77 at the WCCF. > Allison ttfn srw From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 06:21:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801111951.AA13355@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111062101.3b07f670@intellistar.net> At 02:51 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > ><> >First programable calc ><> ><> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goe ><> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the in ><> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bi > >No, this was not the first by a long means. I vaguely remember a desktop >HP job that was years earlier. Take a look at the picture at "http://www.teleport.com/~dgh/hpmuseum.html" and see if you can spot it. Also look at some of the pictures of the HP 98xx calculators on that are linked to that page. > >There were designs that were RTL and utililogic Sounds like the HP 9100. Look at one on my website at "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\hp9100.htm" and even earlier designs >that were about the size of a desk drawer Sounds like one of the HP 9800 series.. that were both totally >electronic and to some extent programable. > >Allison > > Joe From cdenham at tgis.co.uk Sun Jan 11 17:22:43 1998 From: cdenham at tgis.co.uk (Christopher Denham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: help with TRS-80 Model II? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34b952d9.13571571@mail.tgis.co.uk> On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:03:28 +0000 (GMT), you wrote: >> >> On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> ........ >> > What is the reset pin doing at the Z80? And what is the WAIT* pin doing. >> > I wonder if the CPU is either stuck in the reset state, or in a wait >> > state. >> >> RESET* is low for about 500 ms after power-on, then goes high. WAIT* is >> always high. >> >> > I'm pretty sure that if the CPU is halted, it continues to produce >> > refresh addresses, so you'd see some activity on the address lines and on >> > RFSH*. Can't hurt to check, though. >> >> RFSH* is at a solid 1.4v, and doesn't move with a pull-up. > >Wait a second... It's at a constant, DC 1.4V? Are you sure? > >You're not missing a power line, are you? I suppose a low supply rail on >chips driven by this signal could cause some strange happenings. Check >all the outputs from the power supply with a 'scope. Apart from that, I >am confused. There's no way a TTL output should be stuck at that voltage. > > >> part is tri-stated. Data bus lines D0-D2 and D7 are at a firm 1.4v. D3 >> is tri-stated and can be pulled to 5v. D4-D6 are low and pull-up to 1.4v. > >Kersqueeble... What on earth is going on here. > >> Now, here's where it gets interesting. NMI* had an irregular pulse train >> coming into it- at the same time the display was flickering. I shut off > >There may well be an interrupt from the display system to the CPU - a >sort of poor-mans heartbeat for the real time clock. > > >> and turned on again, and the display was blank and NMI* was high. INT*, >> WAIT*, BUSRQ*, and RESET* are high, BUSAK* is low, and HALT*, MREQ*, >> IORQ*, RD*, WR*, M1*, and RFSH* are all at a solid 1.4v. (???) > >That 1.4V worries me. What about the buffers on these signals? Are they >getting the 5V power? > >> >> > Do you have a schematic of the gate-array version of the M4 CPU board? >> > I've got an M4 here with said board, and it's the only part of the system >> > that's not covered in the M3 Techref (which I also have), so I am looking >> > for a copy/scanned in version of the diagram. >> > >> > I would buy a Model 4 technical manual, but Tandy in the UK are totally >> > clueless and assured me that there was no such machine as a 'TRS-80' :-) >> >> I have a 6-page schematic for the CPU, and it shows 4 PAL's. It is dated >> 23 Feb 1983. Contact me privately and we'll work out how to get it from >> here to there. > >Alas, I think that's the older version of the CPU board. Is there a 6845 >on it? Later versions, like the one in my machine, have a custom Tandy 40 >pin gate array alongside the CPU which contains most of the video >circuitry, etc. > >On the other hand, it's a lot better than nothing, so if you could make a >copy of it, we can come to some arrangement about getting it to me. > > >> >> Richard Schauer >> rws@ais.net > I have a TRS-80 MODEL II TECHNICAL REFERENCE HANDBOOK Catalog Number 26-4921 dated 1980 and a flatbed scanner so any pages you would like to see i could email them to you direct ......... Cheers Chris Denham cdenham@tgis.co.uk From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 11 17:45:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801112345.AA20284@world.std.com> < I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from References: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> At 04:38 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) >> >> I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was >> released in 1975. > >Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' >to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. Joe > >> Joe> > >ttfn >srw > > From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 11 18:07:08 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' > >to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) > > I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til > January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it > was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. The Altair article was in the Popular Electronics January 1975 issue. The cover headline is "World's First Minicomputer Kit to Rival Commercial Models... "ALTAIR 8800" SAVE OVER $1000" > Joe ttyl srw From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 18:30:15 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: DM11 Maintenance Jumper Message-ID: OK, I just found a very simple DEC part called M974 DM11 Maintenance Jumper. What is it? William Donzelli william@ans.net From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 11 19:50:11 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I now have in my possession three PDP-8/Is (only around 4000 were produced) from Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri! They are in reasonably crusty condition, having been stored in a garage for 10 years or more, but appear to be all there. One has no peripherals, one has a DecTape drive and another has the high-speed paper tape reader. The machine with the DecTape, which is apparently a Posibus machine, has a custom interface built out of DEC Building Blocks modules...ALOT of them and is very nifty. I expect restoration to occupy months or years but is, nevertheless, quite probable. In addition, I received a PDP-11/34 without programmers console (just the plain boot switch console) with an RK05f and an RK05j. It is tremendously heavy and my assistant and I were nearly (quite literally) crushed in our attempts to get it on the truck. Our spotter did not inform of us a dip in the concrete and it tipped backward on us with only our spotter giving us the necessary force, at the last moment, to lift it back up. It was highly unpleasant. I received several boxes of flip-chips, manuals (LOTS of manuals), tech sheets, blank paper tape still in the box and other items that I haven't had an opportunity to explore. The boxes were stored in a basement so there's a fair amount of water damage and a LOVELY musty odor (woo hoo). =-) I also received an Teletype ASR-33, for which I have manuals fortunately, in fairly crustated condition. Someone left a tape in the mechanism and, through the years of being stored in a basement, it has become yellowed, brittle and has adhered to the unit. Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the external hard drive, which apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. I'll have pictures and information on the website at http://www.retrocomputing.com as soon as I get them unloaded and situated. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From william at ans.net Sun Jan 11 18:43:51 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But what about the LINC? Did you see it? William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Jan 11 19:13:31 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: How does Microcode work?? Message-ID: <000f01bd1ef7$77359e80$54987c0a@office1> Tony, Allison, Roger: Thanks for the quick tutorial on microcode. I knew that it was an involved topic worthy of many hundreds of pages of text, but you did a great job of giving me a thumbnail of the topic. Tony, thanks for the book refs. I'll try to track some of them down. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jan 11 19:45:05 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: DM11 Maintenance Jumper In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 11, 98 07:30:15 pm Message-ID: <9801120145.AA20449@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980111/2b24f2c4/attachment.ksh From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 11 21:22:53 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: C-64c, How common? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980111221853.006c70c4@netpath.net> Talk about coincidence, after this thread popped up, and me never having laid eyes on a C-64c, I found one in a local thrift shop. Bought the whole thing, included a 1541 floppy, all cables, a whole box of software, and a Magnovox RGB color monitor, which I now have hooked up to my Atari Jag. I never noticed before how much sharper those RGB monitors are compared to TVs. Well, I plan on playing with the C-64c for a while, but when I tire of it, I'll be selling it, sans monitor. Anyone be interested? At 09:02 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >I see them from time to time here in the TwinCities. I do not buy them >anymore, I have 6. They have shape like the C128 and the same color and >run all the old cartridges. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 21:40:34 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SMS 1000 aka PDP-11/73 Message-ID: OK, I've powered on both of the systems with the PDP-11/73 processor boards in it. I now know that they are apparently "SMS 1000" machines, but I've been able to find nothing on it on the net, except for a web page that has a picture of one in a 'tower' case http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/collection/manufacturer-sms/1000.html Mine is in a rack mount case though. It has 5 buttons and a small alphanumeric LED display that gives some system info when the system is powering up. I'm quite honestly not sure how to proceed. I've connected a laptop running TELIX for VT100 emulation. This gave me some trouble initially, but it started working once I added a "Null Modem" adapter I had (trust me you don't want to see the console cable I put together with three adapters). The display and buttons are layed out like this. +-----------------------------+ | DISPLAY | +-----------------------------+ +------+------+------+------+ | MENU | < | > | * | +--+---+---+--+---+--+---+--+ | RE | RUN | WRT | | START | HALT | PROT | +-------+------+------+ On the one with the 5.25" floppy I get the following when it comes up. SMS 1000 BOOTSTRAP 256KW MEMORY 11/73 CPU BOOTABLE DEVICES: DEVICE DEVICE UNIT NAME TYPE NUMBERS DU DSA 0-15 MU TK50 0 MS TS 0 ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER: AUTO - BOOT BOOTING FROM DEVICE 0 ***THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM *** 000034 @ On the one with the 8" I get HELLO MIKE BOOTSTRAP 256KW MEMORY 11/73 CPU BOOTABLE DEVICES: DEVICE DEVICE UNIT NAME TYPE NUMBERS DU DSA 0-15 MU TK50 0 MS TS 0 ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER: AUTO - BOOT BOOTING FROM DEVICE 1 BOOT-U-CI/O error 000724 @ I played around and they both appear to default to the correct device numbers for Hard Drives. It gives me a *** DEVICE NOT IN SYSTEM *** if I try to access MU0 or MS0. Well, MU0 is no surprise, I know it doesn't have a TK50 in it, but I've no idea what the TS is, or how I would, or if I could boot from floppy. The 'C' in BOOT-U-CI/O error is actually a wierd c like character with a little squiggely under it. I'm assuming the first simply doesn't have an OS, and that the second has some sort of hardware problem, most likely a dead Hard Drive. I've tried to ensure that all the connections on both are good. I've learned that typing in 173000G at the @ prompt will get me back to the "ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER:" and that I can then specify a device instead of letting it go with it's own choice. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can do at this point? I'm guessing not much until I can scrounge an OS from somewhere. Is it possible to attach the RL02's from the /44 and see if I can boot off of those? What kind of a card does it take to interface with a RL02? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 11 21:51:44 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the >external hard drive, which >apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. This sounds like the Lisa 2/5, better open it up and see about removing the battery if it is, hope it doesn't have any problems from a leaky battery. I got mine just before the battery totally destroyed the boards, and I was able to clean up the mess. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jan 11 23:59:58 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com's message of Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:37:12 -0500 References: <199801111937.AA05890@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801120559.VAA04631@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Allison wrote: > < The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had > > The HP system predated it but, I may have the number wrong. It was > programmed in industrial BASIC. Allison, I'm really having trouble figuring out what you're thinking of. Even as far forward as 1975, the only HP systems I can think of that ran BASIC were minis. The 2100 and 2114 would have been the smallest of these, and both are boxes that really want to be in 19" racks but can be made to sit on tabletops and can be carried (I am certain that the 2100 has handles and think the 2114 does too). If carrying one doesn't convince you that it wants to be in a 19" rack or at least left sit I don't know what will. The closest thing I can think of is the HP 85, which is a fairly small and lightweight complete system, with keyboard, display, printer, and cartridge tape in the box. It was also "portable" in that you could get matching luggage for it. Next closest might be some of the 98xx calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. But all of this is late 1970s-1980 stuff. Maybe I'm just having a brain lapse? -Frank McConnell From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 11 23:38:27 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111213827.033cdca8@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:43 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >> first portable computer >> > >> >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a >> >> Well, if you believe the Smithsonian's "Museum of American History" and I >> believe DEC's advertising this goes to one of the PDP's, I don't remember >> which one. I don't think it was a -8 or -11, and it's been over four years >> since I was last to the museum so my memory isn't the best. They showed >> the computer being in the back of a convertible IIRC, and actually had the >> computer there at the musuem. Big sucker. > >Wasn't there a DEC ad showing a PDP-8 fitting in the trunk (boot, or is >that a hood or bonnet?) of a VW bug? Would that qualify it as portable? Don't know about that one, but the PDP-8/i was available in a (rarely seen) 'pedistal' configuration that would have been fairly easy to move around, and the PDP-8/e/f/m came in a 'desktop' configuration that even had handles on the side. (the 'major' qualification for something to be considered 'portable'). At about 90 pounds for the complete (core, no disks) configuration, it could be moved with minimal pain by two people... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 11 23:44:21 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980111135849.47f74ee0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111214421.033cc2e0@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:52 AM 1/11/98, you wrote: >At 04:38 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: >>> I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was >>> released in 1975. >> >>Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' >>to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) > > I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til >January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it >was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. Close, the Altair 8800 was introduced as the cover project in the January 1975 issue of Popular Electroncs. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 02:46:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112004221.2eef219c@ricochet.net> A busy weekend, actually. 1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: Atari Portfolio Radio Shack Model 100 Epson HX-20 NEC PC-8401a GRiD GRiDCase 3 NEC PC-8201A Apple Mac Portable Hewlett-Packard LS/12 Data General DG One Altima 2 IBM PC Radio Amstrad PPC640 Osborne 01 Compaq Portable 386 GRiD GRiDPad 1910 Hewlett-Packard 75D Amstrad PenPad PDA600 Panasonic Sr. Partner 2) Got them developed 3) bought a Land Rover (actually, 2) 4) wrote a system to automatically generate web pages for each of my computers based on simple data files. It uses 4 data files: Text, Resources, misc. Data, and Image list. There are a handful of template files used to build the actual web page. So all I have to do is come up with some text about the computer and lists of related links, images and specs to generate the web page. So, expect me to be asking about some of my systems in the near future. And, if anyone is interested in using this program, let me know. It's written in QBasic for DOS (Is that 10 years old?) but could probably be ported to just about anything. (In fact, I'll bet Perl or Cobol would be even better for some things.) You can see a sample of the layout it generates at . Note, the pics aren't there. I'd love to get any feedback anyone cares to offer. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From pcoad at wco.com Mon Jan 12 03:17:20 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SDK-85 manual wanted (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help this guy? Please respond directly to him. Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:12:00 +0100 From: Haering Martin To: Paul E Coad Subject: AW: Re: MCS-85 manual wanted Hello Paul, thank you very much for your quick respose. You're right, I'm german and I can see the problem with shipping. But I think we would find a solution there. But let me first tell you that my problem has changed now. I looked for the MCS-85 manual on my loft and - under a thick layer dust - i found it there. But instantly my next problem arised: I'm looking now for the SDK-85 manual. Even though the System Development Kit is described in the MCS-85 book, I need more detailed information to operate my old SDK board. Can you help me with this matter, too. I can see on several web pages, that some of your universities still use the MCS-85 and ask for the SDK manual for the lessons, but I can't get the manual itself over the net or any source to buy it. Now my question is: Do you have the SDK-85 manual for sale yourself or can you tell me a source or seller to get it? Thank you for your support in advance Martin ---------- From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 08:23:40 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes I did. It's an actual customer built LINC. It's in two or three pieces currently but he wanted to keep it. I tried but couldn't talk him out of it. Don't blame him. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > But what about the LINC? Did you see it? > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 20:21:21 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801120559.VAA04631@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <199801111937.AA05890@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111202121.457fb51c@intellistar.net> At 09:59 PM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >Allison wrote: >> < The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had >> > >> The HP system predated it but, I may have the number wrong. It was >> programmed in industrial BASIC. > >Allison, I'm really having trouble figuring out what you're thinking of. > >Even as far forward as 1975, the only HP systems I can think of that >ran BASIC were minis. The 2100 and 2114 would have been the smallest >of these, and both are boxes that really want to be in 19" racks but >can be made to sit on tabletops and can be carried (I am certain that >the 2100 has handles and think the 2114 does too). If carrying one >doesn't convince you that it wants to be in a 19" rack or at least >left sit I don't know what will. > >The closest thing I can think of is the HP 85, which is a fairly small >and lightweight complete system, with keyboard, display, printer, and >cartridge tape in the box. It was also "portable" in that you could >get matching luggage for it. Next closest might be some of the 98xx >calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like >calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. But all of this is late 1970s-1980 >stuff. He's got to be thinking of the HP 9800 series. I'm not sure when they first came out (1971, I think) but the HP Journal had an article about the 9810, 9820 and 9830 in the Dec. 1972 edition, I'm sitting here looking at a copy. I guess you could call them a PC but they're more like overgrown calculators. One line LED displays, etc. HP even called them calculators. You can go to "http://www.teleport.com/~dgh/hpmuseum.html" and find pictures and articles about them. The programming language is different in the different models but mainly they are a mix of HPL ( HP's version of APL, but without the strange characters) and BASIC. Joe > >Maybe I'm just having a brain lapse? > >-Frank McConnell > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 20:27:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980111214421.033cc2e0@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980111065231.476f3002@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111202702.42577c52@intellistar.net> At 09:44 PM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 06:52 AM 1/11/98, you wrote: >>At 04:38 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: >>>> I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It >was >>>> released in 1975. >>> >>>Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer' >>>to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.) >> >> I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til >>January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it >>was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975. > >Close, the Altair 8800 was introduced as the cover project in the January >1975 issue of Popular Electroncs. > >-jim OK maybe it was 1975. I have the magazine packed away and quit drooling over it years ago. I think the IBM still gets the nod since in was in full production and delivery while the Altair was still delivering incomplete bags of parts and even those were months behind. In fact, most Altair "kits" were delivered in installments spread over almost a year. You got parts for one section at a time. I DO have that ad handy. I should scan it and post it. Joe > >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 08:12:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121412.AA05850@world.std.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it >>fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet. >>Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though. > >Ah, what does it take to get it talking to Mac's and Amiga's? I'm assuming >if this can be done for the DEC Pro 350, I can do something simular with >the 11/73 or a VAX. Well, it takes DECnet networking software. For a while, my company made and sold a version of DECnet for the Amiga, a licensed port of the Mac DECnet called TSSnet from Thursby Software . I don't even have a copy any more, and I've long forgotten how to use it. You might be able to find a used copy. Don't even bother to ask Thursby for an Amiga version. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 22:09:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980112004221.2eef219c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111220911.2e47c346@intellistar.net> At 02:46 AM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >A busy weekend, actually. > >1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: > Atari Portfolio > Radio Shack Model 100 > Epson HX-20 > NEC PC-8401a > GRiD GRiDCase 3 > NEC PC-8201A > Apple Mac Portable > Hewlett-Packard LS/12 > Data General DG One > Altima 2 > IBM PC Radio > Amstrad PPC640 > Osborne 01 > Compaq Portable 386 > GRiD GRiDPad 1910 > Hewlett-Packard 75D > Amstrad PenPad PDA600 > Panasonic Sr. Partner Roger, I have a bunch of HP 75Ds. I also have the manuals for them. Let me know if you need any info about them. What is a HP LS/12 ? I've never heard of it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 11 22:24:34 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SDK-85 manual wanted (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111222434.2e47d5b6@intellistar.net> Hi, I don't have a SDK-85 but there is a section about it in the MCS80/85 Family User's manual. The part number for the SDK-85 User's Manual is 9800451. The manual says that you can order manuals from any Intel sales representative or directly from Intel. Let me know if you need their address. I have a MCS 80/85 with a lot of software and hardware including an EPROM burner, several ICE and four 8" floppy drives and a BIG pile of manuals if anyone is interested in it. It's located in Orlando, Florida. I hdon't have a list of what all is there but if you're looking for something specific, ask and I'll look for it. Joe At 01:17 AM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Can anyone help this guy? Please respond directly to him. > >Thanks, > >--pec >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:12:00 +0100 >From: Haering Martin >To: Paul E Coad >Subject: AW: Re: MCS-85 manual wanted > >Hello Paul, > >thank you very much for your quick respose. >You're right, I'm german and I can see the problem with shipping. But I >think we would find a solution there. >But let me first tell you that my problem has changed now. I looked for >the MCS-85 manual on my loft and - under a thick layer dust - i found it >there. But instantly my next problem arised: I'm looking now for the >SDK-85 manual. Even though the System Development Kit is described in >the MCS-85 book, I need more detailed information to operate my old SDK >board. >Can you help me with this matter, too. I can see on several web pages, >that some of your universities still use the MCS-85 and ask for the SDK >manual for the lessons, but I can't get the manual itself over the net >or any source to buy it. >Now my question is: Do you have the SDK-85 manual for sale yourself or >can you tell me a source or seller to get it? > >Thank you for your support in advance > >Martin > > ---------- > > From kevan at heydon.org Mon Jan 12 09:34:28 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (kevan@heydon.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: SMS 1000 aka PDP-11/73 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199801121534.PAA27198@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > OK, I've powered on both of the systems with the PDP-11/73 processor boards > in it. I now know that they are apparently "SMS 1000" machines, but I've > been able to find nothing on it on the net, except for a web page that has > a picture of one in a 'tower' case > http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/collection/manufacturer-sms/1000.html > Mine is in a rack mount case though. That is my machine that I rescued from a skip. Hence the loose side panel caused by it being thrown into the skip. I do have some manuals for it if you are interested. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/collection/ From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 10:54:07 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801121412.AA05931@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The PDP-8i was pretty big and heavy. The 8e smaller and lighter but the When we loaded the 8is into the truck on Saturday, we left them upright (to keep cables from flopping around on the floor) and tied them off to the rails inside the truck. I tied off the two nice machines with the front panels and my assistant tied off the parts machine missing its front panel. I should have checked his knots. We went over to pick up an 11/34 (oh my GOD is it heavy! We were nearly killed.) and at a corner the one he tied off must have slipped out of his ropes (the guy was in the Army, you'd think he'd know how to tie a knot) and ******BOOOOOMMMMM******!!!! I thought someone was firing artillery. Unfortunately, I had to pull through the intersection to pull over and stop so when I took off....***wwwwwwhhhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrr BOOOOMMMMMMM*** as it must have rolled backwards and slammed into the door. *I* retied it after that! Never let someone who doesn't care about your computer collecting hobby do anything that might affect the safety of your items. They don't care and think of it as just junk so they won't think about what they're doing or try to protect your collectible. At any rate, I inspected it and it appears none the worse for the wear. But 8/is ARE heavy. You walk up to the machine and see the little normal size front panel and think "that's not so bad" but then you look inside and realize that that black door BENEATH the front panel is the actual computer. OOPS! > tiny one was the 8m as it didn't have as many slots nor the heavier power > supply needed to power it, it was shorter in depth. The 8m was in the 50 > pound range as I remember. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 11:03:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the > >external hard drive, which > >apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. > > This sounds like the Lisa 2/5, better open it up and see about removing the > battery if it is, hope it doesn't have any problems from a leaky battery. > I got mine just before the battery totally destroyed the boards, and I was > able to clean up the mess. Actually, it was sitting next to me on the seat in the truck and, at a stoplight, I opened it up. The batteries look ok so I'll replace them immediately. Anthony From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 09:56:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121556.AA09444@world.std.com> < He's got to be thinking of the HP 9800 series. I'm not sure when the I gotta get that sex change. It happens it's MS Allison and I don't have the problem of the wife objecting. Anyhow 9800 series it was most likely as when I'd seen it it was not new and I was doing 8008 design when that part was $180 each! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 09:56:22 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121556.AA09558@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980111230802.464fd44e@intellistar.net> Allison, At 09:12 AM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > ><1975 issue of Popular Electroncs. > >Back in those days the January 1975 issues was recieved by mid december at >the latest. I know as the cover of my issue has the last of MITS numbers >and a $1300 total and a mailing date in december 1974. > What do you mean "the last of MITS numbers and a $1300 total" ? >Also the machine on the cover bore only a resemblance to the production >machine as it was a proto. That's my point. The IBM was already being produced at that point and being delivered shortly thereafter. Altair was still using the prototype machine and just starting to sell bags of parts as "kits". Joe > >ALlison > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 12 10:49:27 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Free System/36 Message-ID: <9800128846.AA884652716@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > actually, what i meant by the power-user comment was a person who is > not afraid to use a black-and-white command prompt if it can help > him/her do something. So, would a System/36 be good for me? If you don't mind learning OCL (the minicomputer version of JCL) and typing all the // commands at the command line of a text only terminal (probably green rather than black and white :-) ) then yes, give it a go. But first find out what size it is. There were desktops (5364), desk side (5362) and huge monsters (5360) plus some others (odd numbers) (after my time). The 5360 had a version of my favourite diskette drive, but I have spouted at length on this list about this in previous posts... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 12 10:52:52 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Paperclip (Was: Re: Free IBM system 36) Message-ID: <9800128846.AA884652889@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Speaking of paperclip... I may have found the ROMs for both Paperclip and > Visicalc on the PET computers. Does anyone know what EPROM would fit the > ROM sockets in a PET? I've tried crossing the numbers on the ROMs and > can't learn anything. Does anyone have a schematic of a PET mainboard? 2732 on practically all PETs. Early ones (ROM=6540) had no spare sockets Early ones (ROM=2316) also had no spare sockets, but could take 2716 chips in place of the system ROMs Late ones (Model = 8296) had some sockets that could take 28-pin 2764s, but I think all the spare sockets were 24 pin for 2332 and 2732. HTH Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 12 11:02:19 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800128846.AA884653426@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to >>> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel >>> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit >>> shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to >>> Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor: >>> A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) We've also had some strange definitions of Personal Computer flying around here. One I don't like, but am going to comment on anyway, is the "system, terminal and video circuitry all in one box" definition. I don't think it quite makes it, but personal loyalty compels me to put in a word for the Tektronix 4051. This was announced in November 1975 (I think - have to look this up). I've never seen one but I get the impression the prototype was a Tek graphics terminal with a 6800 development system stuck in the bottom of the case... Anyway, Tek 4051 was intended as single user, one-to-a-desk graphics micro, so I claim it is a "personal computer". And if you're interested in portability, a carrying case was an option you could buy. When did 6800 start shipping anyway? Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 12 12:35:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801121835.AA27487@world.std.com> <>the latest. I know as the cover of my issue has the last of MITS number <>and a $1300 total and a mailing date in december 1974. <> < What do you mean "the last of MITS numbers and a $1300 total" ? No not quite, it was the first of the line if anything and early on to boot as I had it in my hands by January 15! Last was supposed to be list. < That's my point. The IBM was already being produced at that point and I have my 11/23 (The DEQNA isn't in it yet, it has RT-11 v5.04 on it, I kermitted over the distribution, followed the directions in in readme.txt, and did @sysgen. Then I had to go to class. (The 23 is at school) I came back an hour later to the . prompt (No error messages) So, I followed the rest of the directions, put everything on the DU0: (10MB EDSI drive on a QD21) and modifed BOS11 for my config (Commented the QNA driver, added RX02 lines as per the example in some other config), renmaed it to BOS1 and built that. No errors. Put that on the DU0: Now, I do RUN BOS1 and it sits there. Doesn't halt, just sits. It's been sitting 20 minutes, what did I do wrong? Oh, and I fudged, the drive is 120MB. I'm using MM to send mail, so I can't go change it. RT-11 seems to work just fine, btw. I boot from rt11XM normally, but to load fuzzball I did BOOT RT11SJ, then ran it. Not enough memory to do it under XM. Anything else I'm supposed to do? ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 12 02:01:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800128846.AA884653426@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980112020146.2ddf648c@intellistar.net> Phillip said: > >Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the >AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all >solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented >on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) Ahhh, a Casio expert! When was the Casio AS-8D made? I just picked one up. I had never seen one before and I thought it looked interesting. > >We've also had some strange definitions of Personal Computer flying >around here. One I don't like, but am going to comment on anyway, is >the "system, terminal and video circuitry all in one box" definition. I >don't think it quite makes it, but personal loyalty compels me to put in >a word for the Tektronix 4051. This was announced in November 1975 (I >think - have to look this up). I've never seen one but I get the >impression the prototype was a Tek graphics terminal with a 6800 >development system stuck in the bottom of the case... Anyway, Tek 4051 >was intended as single user, one-to-a-desk graphics micro, so I claim it >is a "personal computer". > >And if you're interested in portability, a carrying case was an option >you could buy. I was just reading an old (ca 1977) Byte magazine this morning and it had a article about the Tek 4051. I think they said it had just been discontinued. E-mail me if you're interested. Joe > From ZGE at aol.com Mon Jan 12 12:57:14 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Trainers Message-ID: <442c47ed.34ba678b@aol.com> Does anyone have information on a 4-bit microcomputer called the KX-33B . Back in 1979 , with the purchase of a Pet computer you could have received the kx-33b for free from Ancrona . Also I am looking for information on a programmable digital computer that NRI schools offered during the 70's . The front panel of the unit appeared to have sixteen rows of on\off switches for machine code entry . I am guessing that the kit utilized possibly a couple of 7489's for ram . Also any info on units that had similar 16x4 or 16x8 machine entry would be appreciated . thanks, Frank From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 12 13:32:22 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980112020146.2ddf648c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > Phillip said: > > > >Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the > >AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all > >solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented > >on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) > > Ahhh, a Casio expert! When was the Casio AS-8D made? I just picked one > up. I had never seen one before and I thought it looked interesting. > > > > > >We've also had some strange definitions of Personal Computer flying > >around here. One I don't like, but am going to comment on anyway, is > >the "system, terminal and video circuitry all in one box" definition. I > >don't think it quite makes it, but personal loyalty compels me to put in > >a word for the Tektronix 4051. This was announced in November 1975 (I > >think - have to look this up). I've never seen one but I get the > >impression the prototype was a Tek graphics terminal with a 6800 > >development system stuck in the bottom of the case... Anyway, Tek 4051 > >was intended as single user, one-to-a-desk graphics micro, so I claim it > >is a "personal computer". > > > >And if you're interested in portability, a carrying case was an option > >you could buy. > > I was just reading an old (ca 1977) Byte magazine this morning and it > had a article about the Tek 4051. I think they said it had just been > discontinued. E-mail me if you're interested. > > Joe More likely superceded by the 4052, which used a bit-slice processor rather than the MC6800 that the 4051 used. There were some other minor improvements also, as I recall. The 4051 might also qualify for the race of an early personal computer if its $10,000 cost doesn't put it out. It was programmed in the nicest BASIC that I have ever run across! Marvellous vector graphics. But SLOOOOOW! The real queen, though, was the 4053 with its 19" (17"?) screen! - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 12 14:00:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > If the definition of "personal" is "integrated CPU, keyboard and video > > output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed > > at the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival, and once you've done your > > own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ > > was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few > > months. > > When did the Sphere-1s start shipping? My boards have 1975 dates on them. > The Sphere-1s were also integrated systems, with a standard setup having > the 6800 CPU board, a video board, 16K RAM, and a serial interface board. Yeah, but none of them ever worked. (I know this is an exageration). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From pvhp at forte.com Mon Jan 12 14:37:00 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9801122037.AA07744@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Firsts Allison J Parent wrote: !<> >First programable calc !<> !<> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goe !<> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the in !<> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bi ! !No, this was not the first by a long means. I vaguely remember a desktop !HP job that was years earlier. ! !There were designs that were RTL and utililogic and even earlier designs !that were about the size of a desk drawer that were both totally !electronic and to some extent programable. A complete braino on my part: I had wanted to say some like either "first LSI electronic calc" or perhaps "first microprocessor application". Sorry I goofed. As you pointed out in this and a subsequent post there were many "solid state electronic" calculators available by 1971. Hey, for that matter IBM's S/360 shipped transistorized general purpose transistorized computers (running DOS and TOS among others) by 1964, and by 1971 they were even beginning to incorporate integrated circuitry into what would become S/370 computers. Interestingly the architecture (or its modern desecndant) was not put on a single microprocessor until just a few years ago (1995 saw the 3490 CMOS mainframe on a chip). I would not for a moment call these devices mere calculators though (despite the early reluctance of IBM's marketing department to call things like the 701 a "computer" for fear of upsetting the folks employed in that occupation in the 1950's). Peter Prymmer From pvhp at forte.com Mon Jan 12 15:59:26 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> Hi, I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas I don't have the magazine with me here and I cannot recall what the show title is - or even whether it is part of a regular series. At any rate I thought folks on this list would be interested so go out and check your local listings. Peter Prymmer From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 12 14:22:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800128846.AA884653426@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 12, 98 05:02:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1809 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980112/752ca8ed/attachment.ksh From jchin at aesprodata.com.au Mon Jan 12 18:17:54 1998 From: jchin at aesprodata.com.au (jchin@aesprodata.com.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <4825658B.0001586E.00@aesper_ln01.aesprodata.com.au> If any of you in the US gets to see this program, would you care to publish a short summary of any interesting bits? It's highly unlikely that this will be shown in Australia in the near future. cheers, John > I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for > an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on > PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas > I don't have the magazine with me here and I cannot recall what > the show title is - or even whether it is part of a regular series. > At any rate I thought folks on this list would be interested so > go out and check your local listings. > Peter Prymmer From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 19:38:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11/84 Successfully Retrieved!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 11/84 is now waiting to enter the garage where it will be stripped of unnecessary weight before being moved to the basement. I was out working on it and nearly froze my butt off. I tried putting off the retrieval but couldn't convince the previous owners to delay. They did suggest that they might give me or sell me cheaply a MicroVax II and a TS-05 tape drive in the near future. I'll never be bored again. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 12 14:20:46 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980108100638.2a5ff33e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801130116.UAA23354@mail.cgocable.net> > At 03:25 PM 1/7/98 +0000, you wrote: > >Which is preferable: Hock the offer to half of that $40 as agreed > >on to "whip" for being liar? I can't see him bec he's away for his > >doc appt til Friday. > > $40 imo is a pretty good price for a PS/2 70 lunchbox (if that's what it > is). Even with 2/60. I've got 8/60 in mine, and it works okay. > Doublespaced, iirc, with Win3.1 loaded. Memory is available, though not > always cheap. Well, this specs is for that desktop model 70-E61 and $40 seems bit high and I was bit cheated by seller claiming it has 4mb/80mb for $40 and uses older type 1 motherboard (huge) and was asking here for opinions as I will talk to seller again. Yes, I did open the case to look. This was delayed by the ice storm that caused our power grid to kick the bucket and stayed that way for 4 days til today. Hee hee...this is desktop which is called model 70 and the portable lunchbox is P70 which uses 386 either 16 or 20mhz (ahem...sleepy performance and no cache.) The P75 is also lunchbox in same way BUT, it's real, honest 486DX 33 machine with scsi interface and plasma display to boot. That is one I would like to have. Often, could fool the PS/2 machines that uses 72pin simms by changing those 4 "SMD" resistor jumpers with a proper setting from a table. But bear in mind, those machines requires parity memory. Jason D. From gzozman at escape.ca Mon Jan 12 19:14:54 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> Message-ID: <34BAC00E.7352@escape.ca> Found it! Its called "Into the Future", and will air at 9:00 Central time on PPTV (Prairie Public TV), Jan 13. I'm not sure if this is a national station or not, but their primary market area is North/South Dakota and Minnesota. The show runs 1hr, and is summarized as follows: "Questioning how the human record, stored digitally, will survive into the future." Happy viewing... Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca Peter Prymmer wrote: > > Hi, > > I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for > an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on > PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas > I don't have the magazine with me here and I cannot recall what > the show title is - or even whether it is part of a regular series. > At any rate I thought folks on this list would be interested so > go out and check your local listings. > > Peter Prymmer From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 12 20:36:04 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And now...ladies and gentleman...the contents of the first 3 boxes from the PDP-8/i acquisition....drum roll please.... Two switch covers from ASR-33s with clear buttons labelled REL., UNLOCK, B.SP. and LOCK "ON". A flip chip labelled M706. 2 Applied Magnetics Corp. disk drive heads in the box. Digital spares PN 12-09169-00 (10/21/82) 10 pcs (2 bags) containing lights like in the PDP-8 front panel. Several flip chips M633, R107, W998, M206, M102, M112, another M633, A613, another M206, another M102, M100, and A704. Several boxes of paper tape containing assorted programs for the PDP-8 (apparently bug free...I can't stand dead icky bugs or their remains). Two blue plastic boxes containing OS/8 and all the tools etc that DEC shipped like PAL, etc. More documentation for the ASR33. Woo hoo! =-) And much MUCH more! I won't bother you with the details...just wanted to share some of the fun. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > I now have in my possession three PDP-8/Is (only around 4000 were > produced) from Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri! They are in > reasonably crusty condition, having been stored in a garage for 10 years > or more, but appear to be all there. > > One has no peripherals, one has a DecTape drive and another has the > high-speed paper tape reader. The machine with the DecTape, which is > apparently a Posibus machine, has a custom interface built out of DEC > Building Blocks modules...ALOT of them and is very nifty. > > I expect restoration to occupy months or years but is, nevertheless, > quite probable. > > In addition, I received a PDP-11/34 without programmers console (just the > plain boot switch console) with an RK05f and an RK05j. It is > tremendously heavy and my assistant and I were nearly (quite literally) > crushed in our attempts to get it on the truck. Our spotter did not > inform of us a dip in the concrete and it tipped backward on us with only > our spotter giving us the necessary force, at the last moment, to lift it > back up. It was highly unpleasant. > > I received several boxes of flip-chips, manuals (LOTS of manuals), tech > sheets, blank paper tape still in the box and other items that I haven't > had an opportunity to explore. The boxes were stored in a basement so > there's a fair amount of water damage and a LOVELY musty odor (woo hoo). =-) > > I also received an Teletype ASR-33, for which I have manuals fortunately, > in fairly crustated condition. Someone left a tape in the mechanism and, > through the years of being stored in a basement, it has become yellowed, > brittle and has adhered to the unit. > > Finally, I received an Apple LISA with the > external hard drive, which > apparently has some electronic problems in the monitor but sound fixable. > > I'll have pictures and information on the website at > http://www.retrocomputing.com as soon as I get them unloaded and situated. > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 12 19:55:32 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd1fc6$54d6c970$0100007f@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 2:40 AM Subject: What I did this weekend >A busy weekend, actually. > >1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: > Amstrad PPC640 I didn't know these were available in the US. I just hauled one back (PPC512) from France last week and I thought that I had a very original portable (even though it got pretty heavy waiting for customs;) Were there any other of the Amstrad marketted in the US like the CPC series? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 12 19:55:54 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BAC00E.7352@escape.ca> References: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> <34BAC00E.7352@escape.ca> Message-ID: <34bbc90a.21520768@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:14:54 -0600, you said: >Found it! > >Its called "Into the Future", and will air at 9:00 Central time on PPTV "Into the Future" is on here (Oklahoma) tomorrow at 9:00on our PBS station. I seldom watch TV but I'll try to catch it. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 12 08:54:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd1fc6$54d6c970$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980112085457.537f7b7c@intellistar.net> At 07:55 PM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Uncle Roger >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 2:40 AM >Subject: What I did this weekend > > >>A busy weekend, actually. >> >>1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: >> Amstrad PPC640 >I didn't know these were available in the US. I just hauled one back >(PPC512) from France last week and I thought that I had a very original >portable (even though it got pretty heavy waiting for customs;) >Were there any other of the Amstrad marketted in the US like the CPC series? I don't what a CPC series is but the PC-1386s were sold here. I bought one new. I have also seen a lot of Amstrad notebook type machines, non-DOS I believe. Joe >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 12 20:13:20 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Is Successfully Retrieved!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> This sounds like the Lisa 2/5, better open it up and see about removing the >> battery if it is, hope it doesn't have any problems from a leaky battery. >> I got mine just before the battery totally destroyed the boards, and I was >> able to clean up the mess. > >Actually, it was sitting next to me on the seat in the truck and, at a >stoplight, I opened it up. The batteries look ok so I'll replace them >immediately. Glad to hear they look OK. I probably should have added that it's my understanding that this problem is the most severe on the 2/5. Also probably safest to just leave them out. It'll run just fine without the battery. IIRC about all that does is keep the date and time, but then you can never again have a valid date anyway since 1995 is long gone :^) And people worry about the year 2000 problem, that's how you tell that they don't own a Lisa :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 12 19:39:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Tech. manual (was: help with TRS-80 Model II?) References: <34b952d9.13571571@mail.tgis.co.uk> <33F1E2D1.C6A0958B@navix.net> Message-ID: <34BAC5E6.97B80AFE@cnct.com> Cord Coslor wrote: > > I have a TRS-80 technical manual... any interest. Which one? The many models through the several TRS-80 product lines generated quite a few. The Model II under discussion had a manual in a heavy brown binder, the Model I was a black spiral-bound paperback, the Model III had a light brown perfect-bound paperback. Check the date on your system or your ISP's. Somehow this message showed up with a sending date of last Aug 13. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 12 20:21:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts References: Message-ID: <34BACFA3.AF8BA7B9@cnct.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > We went over to pick up an 11/34 (oh my GOD is it heavy! We were nearly > killed.) and at a corner the one he tied off must have slipped out of his > ropes (the guy was in the Army, you'd think he'd know how to tie a knot) > and ******BOOOOOMMMMM******!!!! I thought someone was firing artillery. > Unfortunately, I had to pull through the intersection to pull over and > stop so when I took off....***wwwwwwhhhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrr BOOOOMMMMMMM*** > as it must have rolled backwards and slammed into the door. You don't learn to tie knots in the Army. You learn to tie knots in the Boy Scouts. Under adult supervision, which the Army doesn't have. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 12 20:41:23 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <9801122159.AA16026@forte.com> Message-ID: >I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for >an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on >PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas I just checked, unfortunatly Oregon Public Broadcasting is running something different. They have some special five day series they're running this week. Don't know if they'll be showing it later. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:45:52 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Very Important, read, react, forward] Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184205.492fdf20@ricochet.net> >those "encryption standards" last summer.... wiped out any chance of brain >activity in DC, outside of businesses.... Was there any brain activity before that? 8^) Well, one thing that is often forgotten is that the internet (or arpanet or something) was developed so that the US DOD could have a computer network that wouldn't die if one node when down. Which, of course, can be used against the feds, should they try and censor things. There's no reason I couldn't set up a server in a closet which, at a special, pre-arranged time, would call a server in, say, Portland to pick up the mail that was collected by calling a server in vancouver, etc. (Anyone ever heard of Fido?) Unfortunately, we (in the US) would lose a lot of what has made the 'net indispensable for a lot of people. Singapore censors stuff coming in via the mail (dunno about the 'net); we might very well end up the same way, if they really screw things up (cut off from the freedom-loving world.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Portland Sale, got a PDP, etc. Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184244.492fe32e@ricochet.net> At 11:13 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >a 'Zorba CPM' (some sort of Kaypro clone, apparently). All was in good, if > >When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro >2000, and DG One I saw. (: AAaaarrrggghhh! I *really* want an HP IPC! And a Kaypro 2000! And a Zorba! I think if I didn't already have a DG One, I'd have to come up there and steal them from y'all.... 8^) Btw: Modular Micros Zorba 7 7" CRT 2 410K floppies 22lbs In prod. by '84 $1595 Modular Micros Zorba 2000 9" CRT 2 820K Floppies (10M HD avail) 25 lbs. in prod. by '84 ~$2000 --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:07 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Free IBM system 36 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184220.492f30ca@ricochet.net> At 10:41 PM 1/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >Look at how fast a CP/M system can be up and running Wordstar, compared to >a Win95 system running Word97. About 3 seconds on my Starlet. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184253.492fe22e@ricochet.net> At 06:51 AM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >What are the firsts? Here are my guesses... >first portable computer Probably the STM Systems BABY! 1, ca. 08/1976 >first laptop MCM Computers System 700, Model 782 APL, ca. 12/1977 >first GUI Xerox whatevertheycalledit? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> > Personal Computer: IBM called the 5100 a personal computer and also a >portable computer. I think they called it a personal computer since it did Announced 9/9/75 according to Haddock. He also mentions a "Geniac" ca. 1956: "Sold primarily as a toy, this type of machine was arguably the first electronic digital personal computer." And in '71, "The Busicom desktop electronic calculator, based on the new Intel 4004, was introduced. This was the first computing device to employ a microprocessor." 1973 saw the Scelbi 8H, and 1974 saw the Mark 8. Also in '74, Xerox came up with the Alto which could make a bid for the first personal computer. 1975 was the year of the Altair 8800 (ann. january) and the Processor Technology SOL (April). Later MOS Tech came out with the KIM-1. > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:50 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184303.492f5b2a@ricochet.net> At 09:31 AM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >> first personal computer (I think I know that one) >own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ][ I think you mean the Apple 1. >> first portable computer > >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a >PDP-8 across a bridge some years ago. She got funny looks, but she >"ported" her computer elsewhere. However, I believe this one goes to the >IBM 5100. However, did I hear grumblings of something portable pre-dating >even the 5100? Like something from HP in the early 70s? I think if you consider the 5100 a portable, then so should you consider the PDP-8. The 5100, while more *convenient* to move, perhaps, than, say, an Altair, is hardly all that portable. It's listed as 50lbs (a stretch even for me) and has no handle. You tell me how that's a portable? (It's much like a TRS-80 Model III, only flatter. I think the III is lighter though.) I vote for the STM Baby. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:47:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184312.492f8fae@ricochet.net> At 01:39 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >When did the Sphere-1s start shipping? My boards have 1975 dates on them. >The Sphere-1s were also integrated systems, with a standard setup having >the 6800 CPU board, a video board, 16K RAM, and a serial interface board. Haddock says 1975, no month. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 12 20:46:56 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980112184308.492f9eb4@ricochet.net> >>> first personal computer (I think I know that one) >> >>output" then that would be the Sol-20 from 1976. This was first proposed > > I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was >released in 1975. Sol-20 -- introduced April, 1975 --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 12 20:56:56 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <34BAD7F8.74594A68@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I > >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one > >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could > >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't > >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected > > No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! Ah, c'mon. You can rent a forklift lots of places. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From william at ans.net Mon Jan 12 21:05:16 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980112184303.492f5b2a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > I think if you consider the 5100 a portable, then so should you consider the > PDP-8. The 5100, while more *convenient* to move, perhaps, than, say, an > Altair, is hardly all that portable. It's listed as 50lbs (a stretch even > for me) and has no handle. You tell me how that's a portable? (It's much > like a TRS-80 Model III, only flatter. I think the III is lighter though.) > > I vote for the STM Baby. Even if the implementation may be poor (ie. no handles), I think IBM really did try to make the thing truely portable. After all, all you needed to do was lug around _one_ 50 pound box to do useful things, rather than a processor plus a tube or printer, and perhaps an external power unit. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jan 12 17:55:00 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work. Message-ID: <000301bd1fd1$992051e0$54987c0a@office1> Well, let no one tell you that size doesn't matter. Last night I was thinking about how I went about replacing the foam in my RK05 drives. The only thing that I changed was the foam. I disconnect no wires. So, I thought that maybe platter speed may be effected by air volume. The foam on the cartridge air inlet was about 3/32" thicker than the old foam. This difference was enough to reduce the air volume into the disk pack (there is a little bump on the air inlet that pushes a door open on the pack). The extra foam I guess did not allow the door to open enough. This lack of air produces enough drag on the motor spindle to stall the motor. Mystery solved. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From william at ans.net Mon Jan 12 21:26:28 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9801122037.AA07744@forte.com> Message-ID: > As you pointed out in this and a subsequent post there were many "solid state > electronic" calculators available by 1971. Hey, for that matter IBM's S/360 > shipped transistorized general purpose transistorized computers (running DOS > and TOS among others) by 1964, and by 1971 they were even beginning to > incorporate integrated circuitry into what would become S/370 computers. > Interestingly the architecture (or its modern desecndant) was not put on a > single microprocessor until just a few years ago (1995 saw the 3490 CMOS > mainframe on a chip). This is mostly because of the need for speed in an very complex system. They probably could not have put a S/360 implemenation on one chip and still get decent performance until recently. There is quite a bit of extra circuitry in the big IBMs that nobody ever sees - mostly in the redundancy and error checking realms missing in microprocessors. For example, the memory interface for the older (and probably the newer, as well) RS/6000s has SECDED error handling, memory scrubbing, and faulty bit substitution all built in. AS/400s are the same way. In the mainframe line, this philosophy goes even further, with things like parity on internal busses. In other words, it is no suprise that a 3081 (ca. 1983) is implemented using over a thousand gate arrays. The amazing thing is that IBM was able to get all of those _hot_ chips working in such a small space (about a cubic foot, maybe two). Yes, I lust for a S/360 or 370, and would even settle for a 3033 or 3081. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Jan 12 21:30:12 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yeah, but none of them ever worked. (I know this is an exageration). No far off, judging from some of the kludges needed to get them to work. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 12 23:16:03 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd1fe2$58084990$3b69420c@magnum> The CPC's were the first Amstrads that I know of, they were commercialized in Europe. They are basically just a Keyboar type computer that plugs into a monitor they also had an integrated tape player for the earlier models and a 3 1/2" drive for the later models (before the PC compatibles). I don't remember the exact number but I think that the CPC6128 was the last of the series. > I don't what a CPC series is but the PC-1386s were sold here. I bought >one new. I have also seen a lot of Amstrad notebook type machines, non-DOS >I believe. > > Joe > >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Francois Auradon. >>Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon >> >> > From pcoad at wco.com Mon Jan 12 23:45:12 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I > >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one > >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could > >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't > >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected > > No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! > Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. (It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines in the room: NEC PC-8201A - no handle NEC Starlet - no handle Epson PX-8 - handle AT&T 3B1 - no handle Sun 3/60 - no handle Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a machine is portable. It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". Where I could pickup the 3B1 and take it into work with me everyday, I have a difficult time believing that this is what AT&T expected. Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From pvhp at forte.com Tue Jan 13 00:14:00 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <9801130614.AA20936@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot I wrote: >I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for >an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on >PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas OK I have the magazine: there is a Review (not an advert) on page 110 of the Jan 1998 issue of Sci. Am. The television program will be: "Into the Future: On the Preservation of Knowledge in the Electronic Age" A film by Terry Sanders, narrated by Robert MacNeil; American Film Foundation, 1997; Airing January 13 on PBS. I do not know much about the "American Film Foundation" but MacNeil is a PBS regular and PBS quite often offers transcipts and tapes for sale at the end of many (but not all) of their broadcasts. While I have several CRTs for use as monitors I do not own a television tuner or a VCR. (I also note that the schedule posted at http://www.kqed.org/ implies that the main Bay Area PBS broadcaster will not be showing Into the Future.) Could folks who do manage to see it please post a message regarding whether there is an address to which one could write to obtain transcripts/tapes? Thanks. Peter Prymmer From engine at chac.org Mon Jan 12 20:50:49 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980112185049.01003380@pop.batnet.com> At 18:13 1/12/98 -0800, Zane wrote: >....IIRC about all [the battery] does is keep the date and time, but then you >can never again have a valid date anyway since 1995 is long gone :^) And >people worry about the year 2000 problem, that's how you tell that they >don't own a Lisa :^) Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? TIA, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 13 00:40:51 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980112185049.01003380@pop.batnet.com> References: < Message-ID: Kip Crosby wrote: >Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? >How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? Yeah, pretty amazing isn't it. Now that's what I call planned obsolecence! My Lisa 2/5 works great once I figured out in what order to turn everything on. One slight problem the date will be wrong, the whole time I own it. I don't know the technical reasons behind it, and I may be off +/- a year in the 1995 bit. Really shocked me when I got it and started researching the computer. Now I kind of consider it a cool little fact. Doesn't really cause any problems, and I'm told none of the software will print out reports with the wrong date because of it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 13 00:50:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright >Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. >(It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 >does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines >in the room: On the more modern systems not having handles is a good thing. I've got a "Twinhead Superlap 386sx" (made in 1990, not quite classic), which at one point I'd loaned to my Mom. Seeing that it had a handle, she decided it would be a good way to pick it up (something I'd never had the guts to try). Thankfully she didn't get it over the floor before the handle snaped and if fell back to the table. What really amazed me was she managed to get a new handle out of Twinhead, and this was '93. Now I use the laptop as a easy to store VT100 :^) Let's face it, not everything is built like a Kaypro! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Tue Jan 13 02:32:41 1998 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: TEXAS INSTRIMENTS TI99/4A Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980113083241.00674860@vader.kootenay.net> Hello this is my first post to the list hopefully it's ok:-) I have a ti99/4a if anyone wants it, for the cost of shipping. I live in British Columbia Canada. If anyone is interested please let me know Chris Halarewich (chrish@knet.kootenay.net) From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 04:42:19 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884717068@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Peter Prymmer wrote: > incorporate integrated circuitry into what would become S/370 computers. > Interestingly the architecture (or its modern desecndant) was not put on a > single microprocessor until just a few years ago (1995 saw the 3490 CMOS > mainframe on a chip). I would not for a moment call these devices mere Are you sure? I remember when I was at IBM the PC/370 was available - this would have been 1985-86 or possibly summer 1987. I believe this was based on the 68000 circuitry with different microcode. Tony, what date is your little 370-alike? And how many chips? Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 05:22:45 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884719411@compsci.powertech.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: > is implemented using over a thousand gate arrays. The amazing thing is > that IBM was able to get all of those _hot_ chips working in such a > small space (about a cubic foot, maybe two). > > Yes, I lust for a S/360 or 370, and would even settle for a 3033 or 3081. Me too! But I think a 4381, say or even a 9370, would be easier to work on. Why? The 308X and 3090 (and I think also the 303X, although I know less about them) were _water cooled_. Maybe I am biassed as an electrical engineer, but I think that anything with water in it is bound to make a mess sooner or later... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 05:41:52 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884720668@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> Phillip said: >> > >> >Um. What date was the Casio AL1000? For that matter, what date was the >> >AL2000? OK, the AL1000 had nixie tubes in the display, so was not all >> >solid state, but it comes close, I'm sure. (Other people have commented >> >on the HP 9100 and the earlier Busicoms) >> >> Ahhh, a Casio expert! When was the Casio AS-8D made? I just picked one >> up. I had never seen one before and I thought it looked interesting. Alas, I am not a Casio expert. I merely happen to have an AL1000, an FX-502P and an FX-601P, FWIW. What is the AS-8D? Can you describe it to us? >> I was just reading an old (ca 1977) Byte magazine this morning and it >> had a article about the Tek 4051. I think they said it had just been >> discontinued. E-mail me if you're interested. >> >> Joe > > More likely superceded by the 4052, which used a bit-slice processor > rather than the MC6800 that the 4051 used. There were some other minor > improvements also, as I recall. I cannot remember the exact date the 4051 was discontinued, although I have it somewhere at home, but it was a couple of years after the introduction of the 4052. 1982? 1977 does sound more like the announcement of the 4052 and 4054, I must admit. Yes please, Joe, I am indeed interested in the Byte article. > The 4051 might also qualify for the race of an early personal computer if > its $10,000 cost doesn't put it out. It was programmed in the nicest BASIC > that I have ever run across! Marvellous vector graphics. But SLOOOOOW! > The real queen, though, was the 4053 with its 19" (17"?) screen! I think I'd disagree with you here, Don. The 4051 was announced with a price tag of (I think) $6999 for the base spec. (Might have been $7999). It went down in price very rapidly - the top spec machine was only $5250 or something when it was eventually discontinued. But I meant "personal" not in the sense of "personally owned" but in the sense of "intended to go on/at someone's desk for their personal use" - and I was commenting on the "all in one box" definition someone had proposed earlier. The 4051 BASIC is AWFUL. Example: the syntax of the IF statement is IF condition THEN line number. Similarly the 4052 and 4054. The really nice version came with the 4052A and 4054A in (?) 1982. This was achieved AFAICT by freeing up ROM space from GPIB handling routines - the upgrade was new ROMS plus a new I/O board that had a proper GPIB controller chip on it. I've never heard of the 4053. Are you sure you don't mean the 4054? This did have a 19 inch screen. Yes, I too would love a 4054A. But I have to be content with my 4052, which is also a nice machine. But as you say, the graphics are SLOW. (Faster on the 4054 which had constant rate vector drawing rather than constant time. But that's another story). I shall look up some of the above details when I get home - I did a talk on the 4050 series recently and the notes are still on my Microscribe - and post corrections if I made any glaring errors... Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 06:08:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date Message-ID: <199801131208.AA13782@world.std.com> Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? <>How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? < Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113085811.4fdf3316@intellistar.net> That sounds like the machines that I've seen. They're fairly common around hamfests and other sales. If you're interested in them let me know which ones you want and an idea of what they'e worth and I'll see about picking them up. Joe At 11:16 PM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >The CPC's were the first Amstrads that I know of, they were commercialized >in Europe. >They are basically just a Keyboar type computer that plugs into a monitor >they also had an integrated tape player for the earlier models and a 3 1/2" >drive for the later models (before the PC compatibles). I don't remember the >exact number but I think that the CPC6128 was the last of the series. > >> I don't what a CPC series is but the PC-1386s were sold here. I bought >>one new. I have also seen a lot of Amstrad notebook type machines, non-DOS >>I believe. >> >> Joe >> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>Francois Auradon. >>>Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon >>> >>> >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 09:05:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19980112184257.492f2c06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113090554.53c7469e@intellistar.net> At 09:45 PM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > >> > Portable Computer: IBM also called the 5100 a "portable computer". I >> >guess they considered it a portable computer because everything was in one >> >unit. It was certainly NOT portable in the sense that one person could >> >pick it up and move it around. It's huge and it's heavy and there aren't >> >even any handles on it. Not to mention the fact that it has an unprotected >> >> No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! Hey, I didn't say it was portable! I own one remember (grunt!). That's what IBM said! IBM also said that it was a "personal computer", but I wonder how many people could afford a $15,000 computer in 1975! (or '76, '77, '78 etc etc) Joe >> >Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright >Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. >(It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 >does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines >in the room: > >NEC PC-8201A - no handle >NEC Starlet - no handle >Epson PX-8 - handle >AT&T 3B1 - no handle >Sun 3/60 - no handle > >Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a >machine is portable. > >It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built >to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved >to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". >Where I could pickup the 3B1 and take it into work with me everyday, I >have a difficult time believing that this is what AT&T expected. > Yeah, my HP-41 doesn't have a handle ether! >Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. That says it all! Joe > >--pec >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 09:51:53 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: help In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980113083241.00674860@vader.kootenay.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113095153.416fa6ca@intellistar.net> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 10:08:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800138847.AA884720668@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113100855.416f6fd2@intellistar.net> > >I cannot remember the exact date the 4051 was discontinued, although I >have it somewhere at home, but it was a couple of years after the >introduction of the 4052. 1982? 1977 does sound more like the >announcement of the 4052 and 4054, I must admit. > >Yes please, Joe, I am indeed interested in the Byte article. Send me your address and I'll copy it and send it to you. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 10:13:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Lisa System Date In-Reply-To: <199801131208.AA13782@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113101356.425f6062@intellistar.net> At 07:08 AM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: > ><>Huh? You mean 1995 was the last year a Lisa's sysclock could register? ><>How, i. e. from when and with what ticks, was the clock set up? >< > >The most common cause its that the date(year) is only stored as a single >digit and it's added to the date of creation of the system. This is very >common! For some systems this is a two digit number but at 2000 it rolls >around to 1900. FYI the common PDP-8 OS OS/8 happens to also have this >problem every 7 years for using only three bits for the year portion of >the date. > > >Allison Wow, sounds like they get to solve the year 2000 problem every seven years :-/ Joe > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 13 09:57:28 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <9800138847.AA884735968@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > > 20 IF A=5 THEN 100 > > That is standard Dartmouth BASIC! at least it has been since 1969 when I > started programming with it. I see. I can never remember which features were original, which later. Most modern basics allow IF condition THEN line number, but also allow IF condition THEN statement, which is usually more useful, and forbidden on the Tek (which is what I was getting at). The original BASIC, IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong!) had a lot of useful array-handling commands, most of which remain on the IBM System/23 (Datamaster), and a few of which remain on the Tek, but which all disappeared in the home computer BASICs (mostly Microsoft, of course). But I digress. The reason I found 4051/4052 BASIC awful was because that IF statement, coupled with an absence of multistatement lines, takes away half the fun things I used to do on the PET (wherewith I grew up). On the 4052A and 4054A, BASIC really was nice. I think this is the dialect that Transera Corp. ported to PCs and some of their embedded processors. They call it TBasic, and I think this stands for Tektronix Basic. Certainly it has a lot of the graphics commands in common with the 4051/4052. But perhaps I was a bit harsh - Tek BASIC does have very powerful graphics and quite powerful GPIB handling. I still use it, after all :-) Philip. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 13 11:54:47 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Interesting goodies on punched paper tape! Message-ID: <13323926601.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Can anyone identify these? I have a serial tape reader, so I plan to read these into my PC and see if E11 or the Supnik emulator will take them. But I don't know what's on these. So, I'll just retype the labels Here goes... PUNCHED PAPER TAPES: CASE #1 DEC-11-NFPMA-A-PR2 8/72 M FPMP-11 DOUBLE PRECISION PACKAGE REPLACES: DEC-11-YQPC-PB DEC-11-NFPMA-A-PR1 8/72 M FPMP-11 SINGLE PRECISION PACKAGE REPLACES: DEC-11-YQPC-PB DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PR1 12/72 M LINK-11S OBJ V002A TAPE 1 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-ZLQA-PR1 DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PR2 12/72 M LINK-11S OBJ V002A TAPE 2 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-ZLQA-PR2 DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PL 12/72 M LINK-11S LDA V002A SA=22714 RA=22714 REPLACES: DEC-11-ZLQA-PL DEC-11-Y1PA-PB 11/10/69 M DUMPTT-V001A SA=LOAD ADDRESS RA=LOAD ADDRESS DEC-11-Y2PA-PB 11/10/69 M DUMPAD-V001A SA=LOAD ADDRESS RA=LOAD ADDRESS DEC-11-Y2PA-PO 11/10/69 M DUMPAD-V001A SA=XX7500 RA=XX7500 "USE SPECIAL LEADER" DEC-11-Y1FA-PO 11/10/69 M DUMPTT-V001A SA=XX7440 RA=XX7440 "USE SPECIAL LEADER" DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA2 12/72 M IOX V006A TAPE 2 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-Y1PB-PA2 DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PA1 12/72 M IOX V006A TAPE 1 OF 2 REPLACES: DEC-11-YIPB-PA1 DEC-11-XIOXA-A-PB 12/72 M IOX V006A REPLACES: DEC-11-YIPB-PB DEC-11-UODXA-A-PA 12/72 M ODT-11X PAL REPLACES: DEC-11-O2PB-PA CASE #2 DEC-11-UODPA-A-PB ODT-11 LDA V005A SA=13026 RA=13030 RE-ENTER=13032 REPLACES: DEC-11-O1PA-PB DEC-11-UODPA-A-PA 12/72 M ODT-11 PAL V005A REPLACES: DEC-11-O1PA-PA DEC-11-UODXA-A-PB 17/72 M ODT-11X LDA SA=12054 RA=12056 REPLACES: DEC-11-O2PB-PB DEC-11-CGPA-PB2 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TEST A SA=NONE RA=NONE TAPE 2 OF 2 DEC-11-CGPA-PB1 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TEST B SA=NONE RA=NONE TAPE 1 OF 2 DEC-11-CGPA-PA1 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TADDUP. ASC. (2) TAPE 1 OF 2 DEC-11-CGPA-PA2 6/2/70 M PDP-11 CHECKOUT PACKAGE TADDUP. ASC. (2) TAPE 2 OF 2 DEC-11-UEDPA-A-PB 12/72 M ED-11 V005A REPLACES: DEC-11-E1PA-PB (I have to hurry here, the bell is coming. I'll just list the tape name) PAL 11S OBJ v003A (IT'S on 6 tapes) 6,5,3,2,1 ARE HERE PAL 11S LDA V003A PAL-11A LDA V007A CASE #3 MAINDEC COMMUNICATIONS TEST PROGRAM T14 TRAP TEST (1140 ONLY) T17-4K SYSTEM EXERCISER FPMP-11 SOURCE (6 TAPES. i HAVE 6,5,4,3,2, AND 1) And that's them! I have more elsewhere, I'll dig them out too. But for now, what's these? And can I get the emulator to take them? What about reading them into a real PDP (Like the 11/34?) The tapes are all real DEC tapes, they have DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION - PROGRAMMED DATA PROCESSOR written on them. They seem to all be in good condition. ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 13 12:11:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Interesting goodies on punched paper tape! In-Reply-To: <13323926601.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jan 13, 98 09:54:47 am Message-ID: <9801131811.AA24641@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1441 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980113/004e58b8/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Tue Jan 13 12:15:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <9800138847.AA884719411@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > Me too! But I think a 4381, say or even a 9370, would be easier to work > on. Getting a 9370 should not be a problem - they are dogs that really were not sucessful. I have seen quite a few in the scrap yards (none suitable for taking, however). > Why? The 308X and 3090 (and I think also the 303X, although I know > less about them) were _water cooled_. Maybe I am biassed as an > electrical engineer, but I think that anything with water in it is bound > to make a mess sooner or later... Not all are water cooled. Some have air cooled TCMs - very impressive looking 900 pin PGAs with monster machined aluminum heat sinks. I saw one at a junkyard once a purchased it for two dollars. I still have it. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 13:50:37 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: FWIW Dept: Old computer stuff for sale on AW Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113135037.313faaee@intellistar.net> I found these items for sale on Aucion Web. The same guy ownes all three. "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123" Original Osborne 01 computer". Wants a $44 minimum bid. Oh well, interesting pictures there anyway. "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4185354" a KayPro 2 computer. Only $9.99 minimum on this one. "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4188852" a Commodore 128. bidding is now at $15.00 "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4186764" a Commodore disk drive "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4218100" a KayPro (Sanyo) monitor. From jstern at ibm.net Tue Jan 13 14:02:15 1998 From: jstern at ibm.net (jstern@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: HP9100 A/B Message-ID: <34BBC847.A67@ibm.net> I am looking for an HP9100 A/B: Good Money, even for a non operating machine. Contact: jstern@supremum.com From engine at chac.org Tue Jan 13 13:42:27 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:14 2005 Subject: Port Plus and goodies for shipping, Southern CA Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980113114227.00f60a60@pop.batnet.com> Ex-HP employee John Brown in Escondido, CA, would like the following to go to a collector: HP 45711F Portable Plus (this is the off-white-and-maroon laptop) 128K RAM card 9114B single 3.5 stiffy drive Thinkjet printer 82169B HP-IB interface ?? video monitor interface Full, _really_ full, software and docs. All tested and working as of a year ago. John is moving at the beginning of next week and would like to hear from someone who will pay freight on this by Friday, January 16th, or Saturday, January 17th. Please contact him, not me, at JBKE6QIQ@sprynet.com. Understandably, he doesn't want to scrap this. TIA, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Mon Jan 12 20:05:56 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801132032.MAA13770@mx3.u.washington.edu> >some of the 98xx > calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like > calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. I just shipped off an HP 9831, which ran BASIC. manney ps Hey, Joe -- I still haven't received the $10,000 check for it yet. Remember, I'm selling at original HP prices! From rcini at email.msn.com Tue Jan 13 14:49:15 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 16:47:44 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: HP9100 A/B In-Reply-To: <34BBC847.A67@ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113164744.41e7eaca@intellistar.net> At 05:02 PM 1/13/98 -0300, you wrote: >I am looking for an HP9100 A/B: >Good Money, even for a non operating machine. >Contact: jstern@supremum.com > How good? I *might* be tempted to part with mine. You can see it at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9100.htm". Joe From brian at jhu.edu Tue Jan 13 16:05:45 1998 From: brian at jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, I lust for a S/360 or 370, and would even settle for a 3033 or 3081. Just out of curiousity, how would you handle the environmentals for one of those monsters? The 3081, at least, is water-cooled! We scrapped one of those several years back, and it never even occurred to me to try and and take it home. Now that 9221 that we're about to decommission... -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Library Network Guy Johns Hopkins University brian@musicbox.mse.jhu.edu From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 17:19:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113171902.50af09c2@intellistar.net> At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of >accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > Charter ClubWin! Member > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > Nothing unless you get some hardware with it, the ISIS is just the operating system for the Intel MCS 80/85 developement system. It supports all of the Intellec devices. What you can do depends on what hardware and software you get. But a few of the things that it does are: Burn EPROMS, supports Assembly langauge programming (for LOTs of CPUs), Fortran, Pl/M, BASIC, COBOL, hardware developemnt including In-Circuit-Emulators (ICE) for most or all of the Intel CPUs (maybe others too, I'm not sure). Don't discount these systems, they may be old be they're very powerful and are still in use today. They can develope, simulate, test and burn in programs for things like the 8049 and 8051 dedicated uProcessors along with all the standard Intel CPUs like the 8080, 8085, 8086, 80186, 80286 etc. I don't know if these supportted the 80386 or 80486 or the newer CPUs however. This would be a great machine for those guys (and gals, Allison) that still like to tinker with the Altairs and SWTPC and the other old machines that are based on Intel CPUs or will run Intel code like the Z-80 does. Joe From adam at merlin.net.au Mon Jan 12 18:02:35 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <199801132302.JAA04208@arthur.merlin.net.au> >The CPC's were the first Amstrads that I know of, they were commercialized >in Europe. >They are basically just a Keyboar type computer that plugs into a monitor >they also had an integrated tape player for the earlier models and a 3 1/2" >drive for the later models (before the PC compatibles). I don't remember the >exact number but I think that the CPC6128 was the last of the series. A bit more info in case anyone is interested. :) The CPC's were developed by Alan Sugar, who controlled Amstrad at the time, in England. They were pretty much unique, because although there had been rumours, the poress conference where they were announced not only had production CPCs but also a range of completed commercial software - very different from Sir Clive Sinclair's announcements. Anyway, yes - the keyboard is seperate and contains the computer, but the power supply is in the monitor. There was an external power supply available in combination with a TV output box, but from my experience these are quite rare. So if you do get one make sure you get the monitor with it. The monitors are quite good, and are either colour or monochrome. There were three models - the CPC464, CPC664 and CPC6128. The 464 had 64k, a tape drive built in next to the keyboard, and colourful keys. The 664 also had 64k, but it also had the 3" (note - not 3.5") disc drive, and the keys weren't quite so colourful (I think the cursor keys were blue). The 6128 has 128k, the 3" drive, and boring keys - it was the buisiness version. I have a couple of 6128's, but none of the earlier models (yet). They were mostly used as games machines, and were quite good, although there was a very well regarded wordprocessor on them - TasWord, I think it was called. They sold well in Australia and England, as well, or so I gathered, in Germany under a different name. Keep in mind though that if you get a 664 or 6128 the drive probably won't work - the fan belts wore out, and as a result the drive keeps slipping. I'm told that a rubber band (OO, possibly) is a good replacement. Oh, and they're black. :) From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 13 17:51:27 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate on this? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jan 13 18:00:15 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2077AF10E@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Long before anyone glued rust to a strip of plastic and called it recording tape, audio was recorded on spools of wire. Whatever you can record audio on, you can record data on. Wire recorders are actually incredibly durable, and until recently, the airplane 'black box' cockpit voice & data recorders were wire recorders. There are a ton of them still in service. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what the guy had at the flea market. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@wco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:51 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? > > > I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a > storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate > on this? > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, > Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Tue Jan 13 19:17:02 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a > storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate > on this? I believe Germany used such a system for recording and broadcasting during World War II. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jan 13 18:09:21 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <01ISC3GY66FQ9JDIA8@cc.usu.edu> > Long before anyone glued rust to a strip of plastic and called it recording > tape, audio was recorded on spools of wire. In one episode of "The Secret Life of Machines", Tim played with magnetic recording. He recorded a little bit of info on a bandsaw, he stuck some rust to scotch tape and recorded on it, and visited a BBC warehouse where they had some truly amazing video recorders (large reels of steel band instead of tape). It's a shame the Discovery channel doesn't show those anymore. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jan 13 17:02:58 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980113171902.50af09c2@intellistar.net> References: <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <199801132353.RAA28150@onyx.southwind.net> > At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of > >accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? > > > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > > Charter ClubWin! Member > > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > > > > Nothing unless you get some hardware with it, the ISIS is just the > operating system for the Intel MCS 80/85 developement system. It supports > all of the Intellec devices. What you can do depends on what hardware and > software you get. But a few of the things that it does are: Burn EPROMS, > supports Assembly langauge programming (for LOTs of CPUs), Fortran, Pl/M, > BASIC, COBOL, hardware developemnt including In-Circuit-Emulators (ICE) for > most or all of the Intel CPUs (maybe others too, I'm not sure). Don't > discount these systems, they may be old be they're very powerful and are > still in use today. They can develope, simulate, test and burn in programs > for things like the 8049 and 8051 dedicated uProcessors along with all the > standard Intel CPUs like the 8080, 8085, 8086, 80186, 80286 etc. I don't > know if these supportted the 80386 or 80486 or the newer CPUs however. > This would be a great machine for those guys (and gals, Allison) that still > like to tinker with the Altairs and SWTPC and the other old machines that ^^^^^ Ahem, SwTPc's were all, solidly, Motorola Based (6800,6809). Exorcisor and Exormacs forever! Jeff > are based on Intel CPUs or will run Intel code like the Z-80 does. > > Joe > > From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jan 13 18:13:13 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113191312.009e1790@mail.northernway.net> At 04:00 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: >Long before anyone glued rust to a strip of plastic and called it recording >tape, audio was recorded on spools of wire. > >Whatever you can record audio on, you can record data on. Wire recorders >are actually incredibly durable, and until recently, the airplane 'black >box' cockpit voice & data recorders were wire recorders. There are a ton of >them still in service. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what the >guy had at the flea market. Well, to slightly shift the paradigm from classic computers to classic TV, I saw a voice wire recorder on Hogan's Heroes -- it was made up to look like a sewing basket. At first, I thought -- uh, yea, right! -- but then I thought about it and it's no different than a record album, but in a different form factor. On the show, they spliced the wire to reformat a message on the wire... do you know what type of wire was used on these types of voice/data recorders, and how would you splice them? (oh, and could you re-record over a previously used piece of wire?) Just curious, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 13 19:17:13 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <199801132353.RAA28150@onyx.southwind.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980113171902.50af09c2@intellistar.net> <0e7443651200d18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980113191713.4ca75b90@intellistar.net> > ^^^^^ >Ahem, SwTPc's were all, solidly, Motorola Based (6800,6809). >Exorcisor and Exormacs forever! > >Jeff > > >> are based on Intel CPUs or will run Intel code like the Z-80 does. >> > OOPs, I thought SWTPCs were 8080. From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jan 13 18:24:43 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of >accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? Send it to me for the cost of shipping!!!! ;-) (Just kidding...) Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. Anyone here got a few extras of those??? (Heathkit used to still sell those just a few (up to 5) years back... but they still wanted top dollars for them, too. :-( ) Later, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jan 13 18:30:35 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <01ISC48E6SYE9JDFJS@cc.usu.edu> > Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit > gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and > hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' > monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. I have the short-lived low-end version of that unit in the cardboard box. I saw it in the Heathkit catalog, scraped some money together and bought it. I didn't see it in the next catalog. Mine is serial #8. This version of the unit only has half the memory of the one with the protoboard on the front: 256 bytes instead of 512 bytes. It also doesn't have the protoboard: just a keypad and six-digit hex display. There is a spot for an expansion connector on the inside, but I never did anything with it (I tried, though; I ordered a pair of 1Kx4 SRAMs from Radio Shack. 6 months later, _one_ of my two SRAMs arrived. The guy at Radio Shack didn't understand why I didn't want to buy just the one. The other SRAM never did arrive). I've not fired it up recently, but it worked last time I did. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From fbgte at cibola.net Tue Jan 13 18:34:50 1998 From: fbgte at cibola.net (Mario Soto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!! MS Dos Message-ID: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> Hello, My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos 5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? Thanks Mario From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 13 18:36:54 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> References: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <34c607ca.16682040@mail.swbell.net> On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:24:43 -0500, you said: >Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit >gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and >hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' >monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. > >Anyone here got a few extras of those??? > >(Heathkit used to still sell those just a few (up to 5) years back... but >they still wanted top dollars for them, too. :-( ) I have one... with the correspondence course lessons, and the extra components for interfacing with the outside world. The sold (planned to sell?) another gadget with more memory and something else. I'll dig it out someday soon. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From bmpete at swbell.net Tue Jan 13 18:41:21 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!! MS Dos In-Reply-To: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> References: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> Message-ID: <34c7092f.17039602@mail.swbell.net> On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:34:50 -0700, you said: >Hello, > My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos >5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? I think IBM has disk images available either on the WWW or via ftp. I've only heard about such things and haven't found/downloaded them. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 19:40:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? Message-ID: <199801140140.AA22101@world.std.com> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 13, 98 10:42:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1011 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980113/89e4aa17/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Jan 13 19:53:04 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980113175304.0073013c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Wire recorders predated tape recorders. They were in use from the early 1930s, as I recall. An excellent person to contact on this subject is Jonathan Winter of the Bellingham (WA) Antique Radio Museum. You can reach him at jwinter@pacficirim.net, tell him Kevin sent you! He has some examples of wire recorders in his collection. Also see his site on the web, its at http://www.antique-radio.org/ Kevin At 03:51 PM 98/01/13 -0800, you wrote: > >I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a >storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate >on this? > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 13 17:52:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: RK05s now don't work. In-Reply-To: <000301bd1fd1$992051e0$54987c0a@office1> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 12, 98 06:55:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980113/fc43aae5/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:15 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182805.4b5f94f2@ricochet.net> At 10:56 AM 1/12/98 -0500, Allison(tm) wrote: >I gotta get that sex change. It happens it's MS Allison and I don't have Oh no! It's the new MicroSoft Allison! No more intelligent posts about non-MS computers/software Arrrgghh! 8^) (Sorry, couldn't resist!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182816.0a8f8f20@ricochet.net> At 08:20 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >Well, this specs is for that desktop model 70-E61 and $40 seems bit I agree then. I'm not too up on the IBM numbering scheme. >Hee hee...this is desktop which is called model 70 and the portable >lunchbox is P70 which uses 386 either 16 or 20mhz (ahem...sleepy I've got a P70 then. (Not sure if it's 16 or 20mhz.) >performance and no cache.) The P75 is also lunchbox in same way >BUT, it's real, honest 486DX 33 machine with scsi interface and >plasma display to boot. That is one I would like to have. Hmmm... Me too. Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a little high. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182819.0a8f7e3c@ricochet.net> At 07:55 PM 1/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >>1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems: >> Amstrad PPC640 >I didn't know these were available in the US. I just hauled one back >(PPC512) from France last week and I thought that I had a very original >portable (even though it got pretty heavy waiting for customs;) >Were there any other of the Amstrad marketted in the US like the CPC series? Well, Amstrad wasn't really big over here, but they did sell a few machines. Other Amstrad's I've got (second hand) are the PDA600 "PenPad" and the PC-20 (sort of a CoCo-ish/Atari ST-ish one-piece PC). btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't get it, though. 8^( --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:33 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182822.0a8f41aa@ricochet.net> At 10:05 PM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I think if you consider the 5100 a portable, then so should you consider the >> PDP-8. The 5100, while more *convenient* to move, perhaps, than, say, an >> Altair, is hardly all that portable. It's listed as 50lbs (a stretch even >> for me) and has no handle. You tell me how that's a portable? (It's much >> like a TRS-80 Model III, only flatter. I think the III is lighter though.) > >Even if the implementation may be poor (ie. no handles), I think IBM >really did try to make the thing truely portable. After all, all you >needed to do was lug around _one_ 50 pound box to do useful things, rather >than a processor plus a tube or printer, and perhaps an external power I dunno... The 5100 was heavy, did not include a case, offered no protection for the screen, didn't run on batteries... I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- that is, you could move it from room to room because it didn't need air conditioning or special power or anything. But that's true of most of the computers of the time. Yes, it was a one-piece unit, but I don't think that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up or to a client's office to do an audit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:36 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980113182825.0a8f1568@ricochet.net> At 09:45 PM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >> No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! Whups, forgot the 8^) >Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a >machine is portable. Hmmm... Panasonic Sr. Partner: Handle Apple Mac Portable: Handle HP LS/12: Handle Altima 2: Handle Good Composer: Handel Amstrad PPC640: Handle Bondwell B310+: Handle Osborne 01: Handle (Sorry, couldn't resist.) >It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built >to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved >to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". Yep. >Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. Aw, shucks. I thought I had ya fooled. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 13 19:28:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <199801131217.AA16916@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34BC14BE.5F4ECCA9@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > 20 IF A=5 THEN 100 > > That is standard Dartmouth BASIC! at least it has been since 1969 when I > started programming with it. And it was standard in every Micro$oft BASIC up until QuickBASIC. And in HP-2000 BASIC, on which I first learned. The ANSI Goto (label) was a late development and slow to be adopted by implementors -- the first I recall was the Ryan/McFarlan compiler for the TRS-80s, not that that means it was first in any other way. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 13 19:14:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts References: Message-ID: <34BC1160.7837F9A9@cnct.com> Paul E Coad wrote: > Well, the Gavilan is portable and it has no handles. IIRC the RDI Bright > Lite (spelling could be wrong) is "portable" even though it has no handle. > (It is not yet a classic. Actually, I believe that the Powerbook 190 > does not have a handle either). In fact a quick survey of the machines > in the room: > NEC PC-8201A - no handle > NEC Starlet - no handle > Epson PX-8 - handle > AT&T 3B1 - no handle > Sun 3/60 - no handle > Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a > machine is portable. The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had no handles, unless you bought an overpriced briefcase add-on. I know there's no handle on the Everex I take back and forth to work, that's what my rucksack is for. In fact, I think _most_ modern notebook portables are without handles of their own. > It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built > to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved > to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". > Where I could pickup the 3B1 and take it into work with me everyday, I > have a difficult time believing that this is what AT&T expected. I've carried 3B1s and 7300s goodly distances in my time. They're less painfult than my TRS-80 4p. > Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. Hey, if I can rent a fork lift of adequate capacity, almost _any_ computer is portable, especially if it's conveniently packaged in a rack. (Admittedly, some big iron does have to be at least partially disassembled). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 13 20:32:25 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Pricing in shops Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113213201.00691270@netpath.net> At 08:32 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a >surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a >little high. That's one thing I hate about thrift shops: A monitor is a monitor to them. I've seen monos, cgas, egas, and vgas sitting right next to each other, all with the same price on them. (Needless to say I grabbed the VGAs!) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 13 20:23:15 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: What Transciever for a VAXstation II/RC Message-ID: I've been doing some research and I've learned that it is possible to do a network boot of at least some VAXen using a properly configured Linux server with a NFS mountable version of NetBSD. I'm currently in the process of FTPing the necessary software and hope to get my VAXstation 2000 up tonite using this method. I would also like to be able to boot my VAXstation II/RC this way, but I need a Ethernet Transciever for it. According to my Hardware manual for this system (I love actually having documentation on something), I need a H4000 Transceiver. What I'm wondering is if I can just go dig up a generic 10Base-2 transceiver and have it work? Eventually I want to get at least the II/RC up and running VMS, but this sounds like a good temporary measure to run the hardware though some paces, so to speak while I'm getting a Hard Drive and VMS on media that I can use. Besides I want to get a copy of NetBSD transfered onto TK50's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From william at ans.net Tue Jan 13 20:43:14 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Just out of curiousity, how would you handle the environmentals for one of > those monsters? The 3081, at least, is water-cooled! We scrapped one of > those several years back, and it never even occurred to me to try and > and take it home. Now that 9221 that we're about to decommission... The first thing to do is get one of the air cooled models. If not, get lots of ice and a pump! Seriously, a 3081 is not that much of a power hog if the memory and disk/tape drives are minimized. The processor itself is quite small and only sucks up a few kilowatts. Yes, it would turn my electric meter into a meat slicer, but I do not need to run a 24-7 shop! Keep an eye on that 9221; that could be fun. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jan 13 20:48:43 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980113182822.0a8f41aa@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > I dunno... The 5100 was heavy, did not include a case, offered no > protection for the screen, didn't run on batteries... > > I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- > that is, you could move it from room to room because it didn't need air > conditioning or special power or anything. But that's true of most of the > computers of the time. Yes, it was a one-piece unit, but I don't think > that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up > or to a client's office to do an audit. Why not? In fact, my unit traveled around Chicago for the movie theaters. It would be very reasonable to get a nice fibreglass or aluminum transit case made that would protect the screen. I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:26:28 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd209c$333c2a90$896a420c@magnum> >That sounds like the machines that I've seen. They're fairly common around >hamfests and other sales. If you're interested in them let me know which >ones you want and an idea of what they'e worth and I'll see about picking >them up. > > Joe > Well basically I would like one of each model that came out ;) Depending on the location where you are shiping cost will probably add a bit to the total. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:32:16 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd209d$0289c6e0$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Firsts >Paul E Coad wrote: >The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had >no handles, unless you bought an overpriced briefcase add-on. I know >there's no handle on the Everex I take back and forth to work, that's >what my rucksack is for. In fact, I think _most_ modern notebook >portables are without handles of their own. T----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably why they are called laptops and not portables. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:36:39 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd209d$9f6b5e10$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:32 PM Subject: Re: Firsts >At 09:45 PM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >>> No handles??? 'Tain't a Portable then! > >Whups, forgot the 8^) > >>Hmmm, maybe having handles isn't the best criteria for determining if a >>machine is portable. > >Hmmm... > >Panasonic Sr. Partner: Handle >Apple Mac Portable: Handle >HP LS/12: Handle >Altima 2: Handle >Good Composer: Handel >Amstrad PPC640: Handle >Bondwell B310+: Handle >Osborne 01: Handle > >(Sorry, couldn't resist.) > Commodore Sx-64 Handle Kaypro I Handle Kaypro II Handle Kaypro16 Handle IBM portable PC Handle Compac Portable Handle MAC toaster style Handle (yes on top of the unit)(Oops does that make it a portable?) (I couldn't resist either) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon >>It seems that portable machines are those which the manufacturer built >>to be easily picked up (in some cases without grunting too loudly) and moved >>to another location to be used. This holds for suitable values of "easily". > >Yep. > >>Yes, Roger. I know you were kidding. > >Aw, shucks. I thought I had ya fooled. 8^) > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 13 21:21:38 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113222133.006a005c@netpath.net> At 09:32 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably >why they are called laptops and not portables. Shoot, it's not even a laptop. I've seen Pentium notebooks bulkier than a M100. :) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 13 21:19:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? References: <3.0.1.32.19980113175304.0073013c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <34BC2EA5.6556AC26@cnct.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > > Wire recorders predated tape recorders. They were in use from the early > 1930s, as I recall. They were critical to the plots in a number of Doc Savage pulps, as I recall. Though admittedly I didn't read them when first issued. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:42:15 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd209e$67fac050$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:31 PM Subject: Amstrads in the US >Well, Amstrad wasn't really big over here, but they did sell a few machines. >Other Amstrad's I've got (second hand) are the PDA600 "PenPad" and the PC-20 >(sort of a CoCo-ish/Atari ST-ish one-piece PC). > >btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was >complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't >get it, though. 8^( I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline bateries. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 16:30:25 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd209d$0289c6e0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <199801140326.WAA02068@mail.cgocable.net> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: Firsts > > > >Paul E Coad wrote: > > >The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had > >no handles, unless you bought an overpriced briefcase add-on. I know > >there's no handle on the Everex I take back and forth to work, that's > >what my rucksack is for. In fact, I think _most_ modern notebook > >portables are without handles of their own. > > T----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Francois Auradon. > Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably > why they are called laptops and not portables. > Hi Francois, Have a care, are your webpage set up correctly? I got 404. Jason D. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:53:03 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd209f$e9e6ae20$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:31 PM Subject: Amstrads in the US >btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was >complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't >get it, though. 8^( How much did it go for? Just curious. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 21:55:22 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd20a0$3cb47ec0$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Firsts Oops it seems like I inserted the signature in the middle of a word or something like that. Try the link in this one >Hi Francois, > >Have a care, are your webpage set up correctly? I got 404. > >Jason D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 13 21:32:31 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <46df225c.34bc31d1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-13 22:25:52 EST, you write: << Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > > Wire recorders predated tape recorders. They were in use from the early > 1930s, as I recall. >> interesting topic. anyone care to describe exactly how it works? david From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 13 22:01:17 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: John Higginbotham To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Firsts >At 09:32 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: > >>>The TRS-80 Model 100 and it's amigos the Nec 8201 and Olivetti ??? had > >>Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradonhat's probably >>why they are called laptops and not portables. > >Shoot, it's not even a laptop. I've seen Pentium notebooks bulkier than a >M100. :) > > >-John Higginbotham- >-limbo.netpath.net- The firsts laptops used to have handle (I'm talking XT's and 286s) but I guess these were removed to make the machine smaller and lighter. By the way they are not laptops either; I always have to find a table to put them on so I can use them. If I put them on my lap I'm always afraid to drop them ;-) I'll try not to insert the signature in the middle of the message this time:) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 21:45:03 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <199801140345.AA21963@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801140349.WAA06806@mail.cgocable.net> Francois, Thank you. Works now. :) Jason D. > Oops it seems like I inserted the signature in the middle of a word or > something like that. Try the link in this one > > >Hi Francois, > > > >Have a care, are your webpage set up correctly? I got 404. > > > >Jason D. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Francois Auradon. > Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 17:05:23 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980113182816.0a8f8f20@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801140401.XAA09147@mail.cgocable.net> Roger, > At 08:20 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote: > >Well, this specs is for that desktop model 70-E61 and $40 seems bit > > I agree then. I'm not too up on the IBM numbering scheme. Thanks, I will visit the seller again and see how thing happens next. > >Hee hee...this is desktop which is called model 70 and the portable > >lunchbox is P70 which uses 386 either 16 or 20mhz (ahem...sleepy > > I've got a P70 then. (Not sure if it's 16 or 20mhz.) If you give me the model number, it's on your label somewhere with 4 number, a dash then 3 number code, I will tell you what it's usually stock configuration and it's speed? I have the hefty book on this and too much info to take. > >performance and no cache.) The P75 is also lunchbox in same way > >BUT, it's real, honest 486DX 33 machine with scsi interface and > >plasma display to boot. That is one I would like to have. > > Hmmm... Me too. Gee.. :) One comment: I wished....IBM did: None have produced in early generation of PS/2 series faster than 25mhz anything. And design PS/2 ISA or PCI with 486 and has cache but it did not pan out as I wished! :) But 90 models and XP series uses processor card with different designs for each CPU type, XGA that no one likes. Weirdo PS/2 and $$$. :( Those PS/1 and valuepoints are still expensive through because they're still useful especially ones that has cache and has socketed 486dx or dx2 66. Some had Tseng et4000 which makes them really good game machines. > Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a > surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a > little high. Price? If you could recall? :) Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 13 22:01:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Firsts/lasts Message-ID: <199801140401.AA05403@world.std.com> uh, right! theres no way IBM is gonna put copyrighted software out on the net for free. only way to get it is to acquire a copy from someone. In a message dated 98-01-13 19:44:45 EST, you write: << >Hello, > My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos >5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? I think IBM has disk images available either on the WWW or via ftp. I've only heard about such things and haven't found/downloaded them >> From scottk5 at ibm.net Wed Jan 14 01:14:37 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:15 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd209e$67fac050$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <34BC65DD.4565@ibm.net> Francois Auradon wrote: > I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French > :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power > supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline > bateries. I also have a PPC640 and a couple of other Amstrads. Since the power supply for the desktop Amstrads (like the PC6400DD) is in the monitor, if you have a spare Amstrad monitor lying around, you can plug it into the back of the PPC640, and it will power the portable. Saves the cost of a power supply. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 13 22:29:59 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980113232830.006a3608@netpath.net> At 10:01 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >By the way they are not laptops either; I always have to find a table to put >them on so I can use them. If I put them on my lap I'm always afraid to drop >them ;-) I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass 1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD 1535exp w/docking tray. Speaking of GRiDs, any people out there collect them or am I alone? I've made GRiDs my collection specialty since they're small, tough and stackable. GRiDSPeC Page: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 00:52:10 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Francois Auradon head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >>Shoot, it's not even a laptop. I've seen Pentium notebooks bulkier than a >>M100. :) >>-John Higginbotham- >>-limbo.netpath.net- [nip] John, *all* pentium notebooks are bulkier than an M100 (under 4 pounds & fits in a small briefcase) -- AAMAF, the only Pentium based system I've seen that even comes close (and if it beats the M100 it's not by much) is the Toshiba Liberetto (IIRC) which was P75 based, 8M RAM & either a 540 or 850 Meg H.D. (Don't remember which one.) Otherwise, all of the Pentium books are the incredible hulk compared to an M100/T102/T200. >The firsts laptops used to have handle (I'm talking XT's and 286s) but I >guess these were removed to make the machine smaller and lighter. >By the way they are not laptops either; I always have to find a table to put >them on so I can use them. If I put them on my lap I'm always afraid to drop >them ;-) >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon Francois, The first laptops were the Epson HX-20 (IIRC -- or was it the PX-8???) and the Radio Shack (Tandy) Model 100 following shortly thereafter... The HX-20 had a built-in microcassette tape deck, but the Model 100 had a much larger screen. Unlike today's "laptops" (which personally I wouldn't want on mine) both machines had "real" keyboards. (tho I love my T200's best -- real cursor keys in a plus arrangement, not the chicklets in a row.) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 00:57:18 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980113232830.006a3608@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114005718.00975ba0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) John Higginbotham head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight >change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to >accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass >1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD >1535exp w/docking tray. If you're talking commercial laptop, I believe it was the Radio Shack Model 100. It was one of only two commercial laptops ever certified for Space Shuttle travel. Heck, lots of the newer Puntium laptops can't even be used on airplanes anymore, for criminies sake! How can you play cribbage across the Atlantic if you can't even spark 'er up??? ;-) [[ Trivia: The Model 100 held the record in Guiness for a long, long time as the commercial computer with the most miles of travel -- just because of it's Shuttle savvy. ]] (I did just that with my T200 on my way to Germany during the 8 hour trans-Atlantic flight.) Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From gzozman at escape.ca Wed Jan 14 00:01:08 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <9801130614.AA20936@forte.com> Message-ID: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> I caught the PBS special tonight; For info on a videotape of the program, call 800-472-1500, or write; American Film Foundation PO Box 2000 Santa Monica, CA 90406 The program was very interesting. Its main focus was on the social implications of the storage of data in digital format, and its inherent vulnerability compared to traditional mediums (stone, paper, etc.). Most of the emphasis was on how future history will be affected by our digital world; very little time was spent explaining the technical issues involved. The program ended in a very open ended manner; no solution to the problems seems clear. A couple of interesting points made: 1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough drafts of their works. 2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are constantly changing. Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca Peter Prymmer wrote: > > classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subj: Re: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot > > I wrote: > > >I saw an advert in the latest issue of Scientific American for > >an upcoming special about archiving digital data to appear on > >PBS. It is supposed to show on the 13th (tomorrow) and alas > > I do not know much about the "American Film Foundation" but MacNeil is > a PBS regular and PBS quite often offers transcipts and tapes for sale > at the end of many (but not all) of their broadcasts. While I have several > CRTs for use as monitors I do not own a television tuner or a VCR. (I also > note that the schedule posted at http://www.kqed.org/ implies that the > main Bay Area PBS broadcaster will not be showing Into the Future.) > > Could folks who do manage to see it please post a message regarding whether > there is an address to which one could write to obtain transcripts/tapes? From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 19:59:46 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> References: <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <199801140655.BAA04089@mail.cgocable.net> Merch, Aside from the oldie topics: About liberettos; Things have happened and many guys have upgraded and hacked their liberettos successfully. Now has 1gb or more (requires slim 2.5" hd's in there) and loads of ram like 32mb or more not world-jerky, hd killer 8mb and o/c'ed them to 100mhz and they have gotten linux in 'em successfully as well. IBM did stopped producing those PC110's, 486 machines I think. Boo. :( There's another lightweights weight such as aero, T100X, TI2000 (sweet huge screen but battery life is joke and brain-dead 286). I think that today's is Libertto's so popular as Aero's used to be similar to Bug car in 70's. :) Unrealated to this, main issue especially for linux user is specific video chipset, Negomagic, found in many current and in production notebooks are UNSUPPORTED because that stupid company won't help them with info even offered payment. Also the I20 as well. Hint: remember Diamond. Back to oldie stuff now... And, hey, all portable *ARE* bulky anyway even my Luddite is very thick and heavy. Even the T1000 early one is clusmy too. My opinion is that IBM 5100 is the winner for most heaviest and unprotected portable. Even modern smallest desktops with built-in UPS measured in minutes and a small self-powered monitor is stil far from portable item. :) > ;-) Francois Auradon head-scratched, yawned, then typed: Snip about moaning about bulkiness. > [nip] > > John, *all* pentium notebooks are bulkier than an M100 (under 4 pounds & > fits in a small briefcase) -- AAMAF, the only Pentium based system I've > seen that even comes close (and if it beats the M100 it's not by much) is > the Toshiba Liberetto (IIRC) which was P75 based, 8M RAM & either a 540 or > 850 Meg H.D. (Don't remember which one.) This is original configurations since then, Toshiba are now selling updated configurations with more stuff in them. > > Otherwise, all of the Pentium books are the incredible hulk compared to an > M100/T102/T200. snip about handles.. I wouldn't have any handles on anyway. Reasonably good idea this way so users are forced to hold it carefully and stuff their portables into padded bags/cases. Handles invites accidents and some swing around too easily, bang into other objects that could crack/break screens and hard drives like that, handles breaks, *CRASH!* > Snip! > > See ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > Take care eveybody then! Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 13 20:11:12 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> Message-ID: <199801140707.CAA05242@mail.cgocable.net> Thank you... I was able to see that I have it in TV listing, BUT from recent ice storm knockout, all channels working execpt for one channel, I was not able to watch PBS that evening. Boo Hiss! I would like to ask; what's else that have been discussed in that program? Good taken on these 2 points through. But we use acidic papers that self-desructs in few years. I heard a librarian lingo: dead books, that is given when a book page is easily broken like a briscuit thin wafer when a corner is folded and creased, corner falls off. There's Bit rot, alumium oxidizing in 100's of cd's, etc. Thanks! Jason D. > I caught the PBS special tonight; > > For info on a videotape of the program, call 800-472-1500, or write; > > American Film Foundation > PO Box 2000 > Santa Monica, CA 90406 > > The program was very interesting. Its main focus was on the social > implications of the storage of data in digital format, and its inherent > vulnerability compared to traditional mediums (stone, paper, etc.). > Most of the emphasis was on how future history will be affected by our > digital world; very little time was spent explaining the technical > issues involved. The program ended in a very open ended manner; no > solution to the problems seems clear. > > A couple of interesting points made: > > 1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve > the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the > development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and > how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough > drafts of their works. > > 2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve > themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore > throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on > storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. > This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are > constantly changing. > > Grant Zozman > gzozman@escape.ca > From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 02:18:39 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> References: <9801130614.AA20936@forte.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Grant Zozman head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >For info on a videotape of the program, call 800-472-1500, or write; >American Film Foundation >PO Box 2000 >Santa Monica, CA 90406 Thanks for the info!!! :-) >A couple of interesting points made: >1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve >the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the >development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and >how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough >drafts of their works. This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) I don't always save incremental steps of my projects, but I never delete an unfinished project -- packratism saves me there. >2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve >themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore >throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on >storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. >This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are >constantly changing. Thankfully, I'm using my latest & greatest technology to help *preserve* the ancient softwares -- I have an older (durned near ready for this list -- it was built in '89 or '90) MaxOptix Tahiti I 1-Gig Magneto Optical drive, which is 30-year archival quality storage, and also a CD-ROM burner, which some of the better rated disks (like my Kodaks) last upwards of 100 years (or so the label says...) I've archived a great deal of my CoCo, Tandy 200 and Tandy 600 software on my M.O. until I organize it better, then it will be burned to a CD-ROM. Oh, if anyone's interested in Tandy 600 software, I have a T600 FTP site here: ftp://ftp.northernway.net/Tandy600/ The incoming directory in the root FTP directory works, so if you have any T600 software to add to the FTP site, please upload it & e-mail me about it! Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 04:37:19 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980114053458.0069f9d8@netpath.net> At 12:57 AM 1/14/98, you wrote: >If you're talking commercial laptop, I believe it was the Radio Shack Model >100. It was one of only two commercial laptops ever certified for Space >Shuttle travel. Heck, lots of the newer Puntium laptops can't even be used >on airplanes anymore, for criminies sake! How can you play cribbage across >the Atlantic if you can't even spark 'er up??? ;-) That's where it gets a little sticky. GRiD Systems started out only making their laptops for the government, so it wasn't exactly commercial back then. I;ve seen plenty of photos of GRiDs being used in the shuttle, as well as lots of NASA projects and experiments on the internet that use one GRiD or the other as it's brains. I do know that the Compass 1100 does predate the m100 by a few years though. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 07:58:22 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980113192442.009d7210@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114075822.486793c4@intellistar.net> Roger, At 07:24 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 03:49 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I got a line on an Intel ISIS-II development system with lots of >>accessories. What do I do with it if I get it? I'll send you mine for the cost of shipping. I hope you have a big wallet! Joe > >Send it to me for the cost of shipping!!!! ;-) (Just kidding...) > >Actually, I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those heathkit >gibbyframmers (with the Moto6800 CPU, six digit 7-segment LED display and >hex keyboard, etc. etc.) as I used one in college and had a barrel o' >monkeys interfacing things to it 'cause it was so easy. > >Anyone here got a few extras of those??? > >(Heathkit used to still sell those just a few (up to 5) years back... but >they still wanted top dollars for them, too. :-( ) > >Later, >"Merch" >-- >Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional >Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers >zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Jan 14 07:02:08 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980114080208.00690bd8@mail.wincom.net> At 03:51 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: > >I was talking to this guy I met at a flea market and he said he has a >storage device that writes data to a spool of wire. Can someone elaborate >on this? > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > Wire recorders for sound recording were quite common in the '40s and '50s before the tape recorder took off. I still have one that was a combination record player and w.r. The turntable acted as a take up reel. The wire broke easily and was awful to splice. Cheers Charlie Fox From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Wed Jan 14 07:04:40 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <01bd20ec$f95f8780$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I acquired a pair of IBM Displaywriters today, complete with a printer, disks and documentation. One surprise was that the copyright dates on the various (first edition) manuals was 1982 and 1983. I had been under the impression that these machines predated the PC. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980115/3abb0e70/attachment.html From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 14 07:04:40 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <9800148848.AA884811931@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Francois Auradon wrote: > I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French > :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power > supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline > bateries. When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's your uncle. PS If you can't work out how to do it from the above, don't try it yourself, get someone with some more electrical knowledge :-) Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 08:22:47 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd209c$333c2a90$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114082247.47ef57fa@intellistar.net> I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may take some time. Joe At 09:26 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>That sounds like the machines that I've seen. They're fairly common around >>hamfests and other sales. If you're interested in them let me know which >>ones you want and an idea of what they'e worth and I'll see about picking >>them up. >> >> Joe >> >Well basically I would like one of each model that came out ;) >Depending on the location where you are shiping cost will probably add a bit >to the total. >>From what I understand the monitor is also required. >My preference would be a CPC464 then a CPC6128 then a CPC664. >By the way where are you located? I'm in Minnesota. >As for the cost I would probably pay up to $50 per machine (that is >including shipping) depending on the quality and software that comes with >it. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jan 14 08:25:34 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 14, 98 02:18:39 am Message-ID: <9801141425.AA26953@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/d8111a0c/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 09:38:19 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <9800148848.AA884811931@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114093819.1baf4c94@intellistar.net> At 01:04 PM 1/14/98 GMT, you wrote: >Francois Auradon wrote: > >> I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French >> :) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power >> supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline >> bateries. > >When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >your uncle. > And Bob's your uncle.? What does that mean? I thought Roger was our uncle? Aw well, never mind. >PS If you can't work out how to do it from the above, don't try it >yourself, get someone with some more electrical knowledge :-) > >Philip. > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 14 08:50:17 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <9800148848.AA884818229@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >>found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >>these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >>your uncle. >> > > And Bob's your uncle.? What does that mean? I thought Roger was our >uncle? Aw well, never mind. Oops! Sorry. I forgot most of you don't speak English ;-) "Bob's your uncle" is an expression indicating the completion of a simple task. Or something. Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 09:52:00 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: ISIS-II - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <000401bd2098$1697b200$54987c0a@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114095200.1b6f64b8@intellistar.net> R, I'm also sending this to the classic computer mail list since several people there have asked abou this stuff. At 06:54 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Joe: > > I found another guy that has an ISIS-II system, but it's centered on the >MCS-48/51 series. I was really more curious as to what the thing was used >for. I'm not sure, it's not in any of my Intel catalogs but I think it's specificly for developing software and hardware for the 8048 CPU. > > The stuff that the guy has is extensive. Yes, Intel made lots of this stuff. At least two different Intellec CPU units, several different ICE (In Circuit Emulators), several different disk drive units, one or two different EPROM burners, additional memeory units, a bread board unit and more. My OLD catalog shows 42 different hardware pieces. AND they were a number of different assemblers and high level programming languages available. They called it "Intellec". Most of the units can be used with any Intellec system and for any target CPU. If you have any specific questions I will try to answer them. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 08:50:33 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <7eb5c8f0.34bcd0bb@aol.com> I own a grid laptop; a compass II 1129 to be exact. I got if from my brother who claimed it came from some nasa engineer and the computer played some major part in shape shuttle flight/development or whatever. mine works fine, and even has some apps in some extra roms. it's not much of a portable machine though because it still has to run on ac power. gotta love the bouncing balls screen saver though! In a message dated 98-01-13 23:31:20 EST, you write: << I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass 1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD 1535exp w/docking tray. Speaking of GRiDs, any people out there collect them or am I alone? I've made GRiDs my collection specialty since they're small, tough and stackable. GRiDSPeC Page: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD >> From Bill_Opalka at notes.intdata.com Wed Jan 14 09:44:42 1998 From: Bill_Opalka at notes.intdata.com (Bill_Opalka@notes.intdata.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Getting off this list......... Message-ID: <8525658C.00556488.00@notes.intdata.com> Alright.. I've tried every incantation I could to get off this list including: 1) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@intdata.com 2) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@notes.intdata.com 3) unsubscribe classiccmp bill.opalka@intdata.com 4) unsubscirbe classiccmp bill.opalka@notes.intdata.com 5) unsubscribe classiccmp Bill.Opalka@notest.intdata.com 6) Sending mail to the list manager (@notest.intdata.com bcw@u.washington.edu ) Can someone help me get off this list.......... Thanks, /Bill From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 10:47:23 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801132032.MAA13770@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114104723.09d72cf8@intellistar.net> At 09:05 PM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >>some of the 98xx >> calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like >> calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. > >I just shipped off an HP 9831, which ran BASIC. > >manney > >ps Hey, Joe -- I still haven't received the $10,000 check for it yet. >Remember, I'm selling at original HP prices! Manney, Santa is bringing it. Just watch for him. Joe > > From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 10:17:22 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <7eb5c8f0.34bcd0bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114111722.007d1730@netpath.net> At 09:50 AM 1/14/98 EST, you wrote: >I own a grid laptop; a compass II 1129 to be exact. I got if from my brother >who claimed it came from some nasa engineer and the computer played some major >part in shape shuttle flight/development or whatever. mine works fine, and >even has some apps in some extra roms. it's not much of a portable machine >though because it still has to run on ac power. gotta love the bouncing balls >screen saver though! Never saw that screensaver on my Compass 1100. Mfg date on it is 1982, no internal drives, no extra ROMs either. The 1100 used bubble memory. I still haven't found a good explanation on what bubble memory is. Anyone know? I do know that when I got it, there were files in there created back in '85 that were still there, and I didn't see any battery inside to speak of, so I guess this is a feature of bubble memory? I deleted files and created some new ones and they saved fine. Trippy. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 10:21:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980114104723.09d72cf8@intellistar.net> References: <199801132032.MAA13770@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114112135.007e64b0@netpath.net> I did find a description of bubble memory: A type of non-volatile memory composed of a thin layer of material that can be easily magnetized in only one direction. When a magnetic field is applied to circular area of this substance that is not magnetized in the same direction, the area is reduced to a smaller circle, or bubble. It was once widely believed that bubble memory would become one of the leading memory technologies, but these promises have not been fulfilled. Other non-volatile memory types, such as EEPROM, are both faster and less expensive than bubble memory. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 14 10:42:53 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980114114251.009b9140@mail.northernway.net> At 11:21 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >A type of non-volatile memory composed of a thin layer of material that can >be easily magnetized in only one direction. When a magnetic field is >applied to circular area of this substance that is not magnetized in the >same direction, the area is reduced to a smaller circle, or bubble. One of the differences with bubble memory is that it has to be accessed in a serial / sequential manner -- on a 1 megabit bubble device you cycle thru all the bits, then grab a certain set of bytes from the device according to an index or FAT. Tho the devices are rather quick, they do not have the speed of hard drives. I believe you could put 8 devices in parallel, and that would increase your access 8x, tho. > It was once widely believed that bubble memory would become one of the >leading memory technologies, but these promises have not been fulfilled. >Other non-volatile memory types, such as EEPROM, are both faster and less >expensive than bubble memory. The cost of manufacturing bubble memories did not drop in price much unlike other technologies of the day. You are correct, tho. Bubble memories are completely non-volotile and require no power to preserve their memory -- I have no clue as to the bit-rot spec's, tho. (A decent magnet will squanch your data.) I have an article in Rainbow magazine on how to build a 128K byte device as a near-line non-volotile storage unit for the CoCo -- designed by that great master Dennis Bathory Kitsz. (apologies to Dennis if I misspelled.) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 10:45:00 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BC54A4.58AA@escape.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Grant Zozman wrote: > 2) People who work in the computer industry generally percieve > themselves as pioneers who are creating a new future, and therefore > throw off the old. As a result, very little emphasis is placed on > storing or cataloging the vast quantities of digital data generated. > This trend is complicated by the fact that storage mediums are > constantly changing. That's what we are here for...to preserve the digital past. I've never thought of the necessity to preserve "vast quantities of digital data" (what would that be anyway?) but by preserving the hardware, software, manuals, magazines, sales literature, etc. we are ensuring that this stuff will be there for future generations to marvel over. The trick is keeping it intact. More emphasis needs to be placed on preserving the medium. We've done a decent job of addressing the issue, but society at large hasn't. The movie industry a few years back realized they had a problem on their hands when they realized old movie reels in their vaults were disintegrating and historic old movies were being lost. There was then an industry campaign to find ways to preserve these important reels. I think the computer industry needs to do the same. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 10:56:14 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >1) When we create information using a digital medium, we seldom preserve > >the working copies of our documents, and so the historical record of the > >development of significant works is lost. Makes me think of music, and > >how much we have learned of classical composers by studying the rough > >drafts of their works. > > I don't always save incremental steps of my projects, but I never delete an > unfinished project -- packratism saves me there. As a general practice, I (mostly) regularly make a zip file of all the source code for each of my projects with a filename that includes the date, and this zip file goes into a \backup directory on my PC (I also make copies to other nodes on the network as well as to floppy). I have a living system that I have incremental code for going back to 1993; there's probably over 100 different zip files containing the evolutionary story of the program. I'm just a natural born archivist (ie. pack-rat) which is why I never could get myself to delete old copies of source. I guess I really have a high opinion of myself because I don't think I have ever deleted any of my own work. > Oh, if anyone's interested in Tandy 600 software, I have a T600 FTP site here: > ftp://ftp.northernway.net/Tandy600/ > > The incoming directory in the root FTP directory works, so if you have any > T600 software to add to the FTP site, please upload it & e-mail me about it! Much maligned FTP sites such as Asimov (a site which houses obsolete commercial Apple ][ software for those not aware) are doing a service that the anti-piracy zealots often over-look: as long as the underlying infrastructure is alive (the hard-drive it is stored on, the computer that hosts the hard drive and the net that links the computer to the rest of us) the programs are alive. I'd much rather have old programs remain available, especially so we can continue to enjoy them, rather than have them die out completely because somebody believes its simply wrong to harbor "pirated" software. (Sorry for the rant.) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From atomicandrew at earthling.net Wed Jan 14 10:15:29 1998 From: atomicandrew at earthling.net (atomicandrew@earthling.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Original IMSAI Board and More for sale Message-ID: <34BCE4A1.552B@earthling.net> First of all, let me apologize to anyone receiving this email who considers it garbage. Have several items related to the IMSAI computer for sale: Vector Graphic, Inc. [Rev 3] PROM/RAM BOARD w/cable and connector/pins. MAY 1976 IMSAI Complete Product Catalog - "The Complete Microcomputer System". Original price $1 IMSAI Domestic Price List for November '77 Invoice dated '78 (from IMSAI). Comes in what I assume is the original box, but this cannot be verified. Card has never been used and accessory items are still in original packaging. If you are interested, please make an offer an all items. Best offer by 2/1/98. JPEG's can be sent upon request, and I will try to answer any questions. Thanks Andrew By the way, although I don't collect computers, I might trade for an interesting old Apple or Atari. From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 11:27:57 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Original IMSAI Board and More for sale In-Reply-To: <34BCE4A1.552B@earthling.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 atomicandrew@earthling.net wrote: > Have several items related to the IMSAI computer for sale: > > Vector Graphic, Inc. [Rev 3] PROM/RAM BOARD w/cable and connector/pins. > > MAY 1976 IMSAI Complete Product Catalog - "The Complete Microcomputer > System". Original price $1 > > IMSAI Domestic Price List for November '77 > > Invoice dated '78 (from IMSAI). > > Comes in what I assume is the original box, but this cannot be > verified. Card has never been used and accessory items are still in > original packaging. > > Andrew > > By the way, although I don't collect computers, I might trade for an > interesting old Apple or Atari. If someone can find an old Atari 800 or 800XL in a thrift shop for $2.98 (I find them at that price all the time) then IMO that would be a decent trade. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jan 14 10:54:54 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114112135.007e64b0@netpath.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980114104723.09d72cf8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801141710.LAA29735@onyx.southwind.net> > I did find a description of bubble memory: > > A type of non-volatile memory composed of a thin layer of material that can > be easily magnetized in only one direction. When a magnetic field is > applied to circular area of this substance that is not magnetized in the > same direction, the area is reduced to a smaller circle, or bubble. > > It was once widely believed that bubble memory would become one of the > leading memory technologies, but these promises have not been fulfilled. > Other non-volatile memory types, such as EEPROM, are both faster and less > expensive than bubble memory. > - John Higginbotham > - limbo.netpath.net > Yeah, I remember bubble memory. It seems like Fujitsu actually got to work halfway decent. Despite the cost and speed limitations, Fluke used it in their high-end E-Disk memories for the 1720 series instrument controllers. SLow, expensive, but for awhile it was about all you could use for mass storage in certain hostile environments. Jeff > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:44 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103840.501f0d42@ricochet.net> At 09:42 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French And where do you live? 8^) >:) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power >supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline >bateries. Me too. I would think a generic ps from Radio Shack would work, but since I haven't tried that I dunno... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103825.501f24f6@ricochet.net> At 09:48 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- [...] >> that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up >> or to a client's office to do an audit. > >Why not? In fact, my unit traveled around Chicago for the movie theaters. >It would be very reasonable to get a nice fibreglass or aluminum transit >case made that would protect the screen. Well, I suppose it's possible (I mean, there are still a lot of wierdos out there who haven't upgraded to Win95! 8^) but I can't go for it. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Of course, this means I need one for my collection, so I can show folks what some people think is a portable computer... Wanna send me yours? 8^) >I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. I thought someone here said they didn't? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> At 09:36 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >MAC toaster style Handle (yes on top of the unit)(Oops does that make it a >portable?) Actually, an excellent point -- if the IBM 5100 is a portable, then, so too is the compact mac? Even more so I would think (what with the considerably lesser weight and addition of a handle?) In case y'all haven't guessed, I'm strongly against the idea of the IBM 5100 being considered the first portable computer. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:55 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts/lasts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103852.501fab38@ricochet.net> At 11:01 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >You shouldn't have oughta done that. ;-) Calling me microspooge is >frighten words. Oh heavens the lost data. I'm sorry! It won't happen again! For penance, I will not use my Portfolio (Dip-DOS, not MS-DOS) for 24 hours, and no Freecell for 3 days. 8^) Hail Gary, full of genius, the code is with thee. Blessed art though among programmers, and blessed is the fruit of thy labor, CP/M. Holy Gary, father of CP/M, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our disk crash. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:51 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103848.501f3d68@ricochet.net> At 11:05 PM 1/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >If you give me the model number, it's on your label somewhere with 4 >number, a dash then 3 number code, I will tell you what it's usually >stock configuration and it's speed? I have the hefty book on this >and too much info to take. I'll check it out and let you know -- It's actually in Concord (about 35 miles from here) being used to run an engine dyno something-or-other program that my mechanic has. (His main computer's a mac.) >One comment: I wished....IBM did: >None have produced in early generation of PS/2 series faster than >25mhz anything. And design PS/2 ISA or PCI with 486 and has cache >but it did not pan out as I wished! :) But 90 models and XP series >uses processor card with different designs for each CPU type, XGA >that no one likes. Weirdo PS/2 and $$$. :( Those PS/1 and My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory and such. What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the fuse blows.) >> Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a >> surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a >> little high. >Price? If you could recall? :) I think it was about $150. I might pick it up now, at that price, but I saw it before I started collecting computers. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:47 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103844.501f9f24@ricochet.net> At 09:53 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>btw, there was another PPC640 that sold on eBay this weekend, but it was >>complete, with power supplies, software, and a really neat case. I didn't >>get it, though. 8^( > >How much did it go for? Just curious. $100 if I were a rich man... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 12:42:59 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114103855.501f6d48@ricochet.net> At 11:29 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight >change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to >accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass >1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD I've been told that the m100 is one of two commercially produced computers certified for use on the shuttle. Never heard what the other was, but perhaps it's the grid? >GRiDSPeC Page: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD See (I know you probably know about it, but others mightn't.) (P.S. heard back from Ryan; he left my stuff with a friend to ship it when he moved, and the friend didn't. Meanwhile, he's stuck in the ice storms without power/heat/'net. At least its not lost!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Wed Jan 14 12:59:54 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114021839.009cbe50@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: > This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) > half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill > Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) I really do not buy this point. Just about every software development company I know of uses a revision control system to keep every bit of working code that the programmers type out. This includes the hundreds of tiny revisions that are made between releases, even the "dead-ends". William Donzelli william@ans.net From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 14 13:00:42 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: GRiD/M100/Shuttles In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103855.501f6d48@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114140042.007ea920@netpath.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >I've been told that the m100 is one of two commercially produced computers >certified for use on the shuttle. Never heard what the other was, but >perhaps it's the grid? It appears to be the GRiD, as seen in pictures here: http://www.pd.com/GRiD.html >See (I know you probably know about it, but >others mightn't.) Yeah, he's more of a GRiDPAD freak, I'm into the older 80's model laptops. Speaking of which, I just received my GRiD 1535 EXP. It's real nice, even had a docking tray that can fit one 8-bit ISA and one 16-bit ISA card in. 1535exp Magnesium Alloy casing just like any other true GRiD 386-??, 387 mathco 8mb RAM 42mb HD (3.5" IDE, internal) 2 ROM sockets up front, like the older GRiDCASE machines CGA display (I think the backlight is out, if it had one. Kinda hard to adjust the contrast just right, but since I know squat about backlights, I'll leave it alone for now.) Suprised it came with CGA. I'd have thought it would at least have mono VGA, but I think that was the 1537 and above. It'll make a nice little text based linux box when I get everything hooked up. (I'll have to run a serial connection to transfer files since there's no floppy to speak of. The floppy plugs into a standard db25 connector, with one pin on the end filled in wth a plastic stopper. Anyone got a floppy??? Anyone know if a different model external floppy would work?) >(P.S. heard back from Ryan; he left my stuff with a friend to ship it when >he moved, and the friend didn't. Meanwhile, he's stuck in the ice storms >without power/heat/'net. At least its not lost!) Looks like a real mess up north. Here in NC, the people panic when we get 4" of snow. (But let's not talk about snow, it may be taken as offtopic by the fine upstanding members of this list.) :) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 14 13:15:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory Message-ID: <199801141915.AA28798@world.std.com> Message-ID: For a time there was an Apple ][ Bubble memory controller which included disk software. I sure wish I could still find one of these. I remember this was marketed for industrial applications in factory environments. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Intel manufactured 1mb and 4mb parts with control chips. The BPK72 > was the 1mb part on a card with all the control to make a 128k storage > system. I have two, bought in '85. they still owrk and have proven quite > rugged too. > > > I used them in cpm based systems and they are faster than floppy on > average. The byte transfer rate is slower but the seek time is real > fast. They work well. AS to cost they compared well with floppy > systems of the time considering they were able to take shock and > vibration. > > Allison > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 14 09:07:54 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103848.501f3d68@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801142004.PAA23401@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Roger! Snip! > I'll check it out and let you know -- It's actually in Concord (about 35 > miles from here) being used to run an engine dyno something-or-other program > that my mechanic has. (His main computer's a mac.) (!!) Wow! Oddball combo and remember to extract this model number not from the logo up front. It's on the sticker somewhere on back or on bottom besides an barcode. Thanks! My wishful throughts snipped. :) > My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory and > such. I agree, but the 72pin simms are through and through standard except for setup by 4 sense lines and must be true parity. > > What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact > notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion > slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, > but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to > fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and > sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the > fuse blows.) ISA slot equipped portables always have bulkiness factor due to space wasting isa cards and they're very power hungry so all of them are usually are AC only. How about the Toshiba T5200? If you want more info just let me know! Other choice for a machine, I have a lunch box that have 4 ISA slots space and uses edge-lit mono LCD and it's 8bit ISA cirrus logic controller card. Everything uses desktop parts in this box. I can't use the LCD as VGA graphics mode, only text mode with Linux, I had same problem on Luddite as well. I surmrised that it's the bios routing that makes both portables dos/windows compatiable is at issue, if someone used normal DOS or windows stuff on these, no problem! If you would like it I wish to let it go cheap or as trade for another suitable portable. What kind of processor you're using expecially with this voicemail modem card? This lunchbox takes anything up to baby AT motherboards. (This lunchbox is housing a Asus motherboard model P/I-P55TP4XEG and I was expecting to use it as Xwindows machine but discovered that I cannot pull it off as you see.) To forestall the power problems, use a fair sized UPS on it and shut it down gracefully. Improssible to keep any machines even notebook with PCcard mailvoice modem up and running longer than usual 2 hours unless you use external BIG batteries or are on backup generator. PCcard modems of any type run hot and eat up battery juice. Solar power is expensive and requires large area, and only practical when weather is very sunny. Side note: Just minutes ago, power went out as I was typing this and waited for power to come back, it did, finished up this email. :) I did check the disk first for corrupted files just in case and I already thrown switches to off position if the power is lost just in case. > >> Y'know, I once saw an honest-to-god IBM stand-alone plasma monitor in a > >> surplus shop. 17" I think (or thereabouts). Pretty neat, but priced a > >> little high. > >Price? If you could recall? :) > > I think it was about $150. I might pick it up now, at that price, but I saw > it before I started collecting computers. Considering this price, it's worth every dollars for it's longlife, easy on eye, size and crispness. 17" size is big and valueable anyway through. Jason D. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bcw at u.washington.edu Wed Jan 14 14:17:08 1998 From: bcw at u.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Getting off this list......... In-Reply-To: <8525658C.00556488.00@notes.intdata.com> Message-ID: You appear to be subbed under several addresses. I removed one before - I'll go back and take another look. ------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw@u.washington.edu (mail may come from alternate addresses) Classic Computers List Operator/Owner http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 Bill_Opalka@notes.intdata.com wrote: > > Alright.. I've tried every incantation I could to get off this list > including: > > 1) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@intdata.com > 2) unsubscribe classiccmp opalka@notes.intdata.com > 3) unsubscribe classiccmp bill.opalka@intdata.com > 4) unsubscirbe classiccmp bill.opalka@notes.intdata.com > 5) unsubscribe classiccmp Bill.Opalka@notest.intdata.com > 6) Sending mail to the list manager (@notest.intdata.com > bcw@u.washington.edu ) > > Can someone help me get off this list.......... > > > Thanks, > > > /Bill > > > From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Jan 14 14:18:40 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <199801142018.PAA07098@webern.cs.unc.edu> These two threads just bumped together in my head. Has anybody got an idea of how long data should last on wire? It can't have the same problem with oxide coating that tapes do - the main problem might be to keep any oxide coating from developing. :-) Are the early wire recordings still readable? Maybe CDROMs beat wire in resisting rust, even if they are still not quite perfect on that count. Still, something about the idea of using such an old storage medium appeals to me. Anyone want to try running some fine ferrous wire through an old cassette (or even reel-to-reel) recorder, and see if the result is readable? Given Allison's warning about head-wear, I wouldn't try it on my favorite stereo system. Just what we need, another incompatible storage medium. :-) Cheers, Bill. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 15:29:17 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114111722.007d1730@netpath.net> References: <7eb5c8f0.34bcd0bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114152917.44ff6674@intellistar.net> John, Bubble memory is a solid state memory device that has "channels" of magnetic bubbles in it. Each bubble can be polarized N or S giving a 0 or 1. The bubbles can be pushed down the "channel" to get to the desired bubble, exactly like operating a magnetic tape. It's also a serial access device same as a mag tape, so access speed isn't too good. If I remember right they do retain memory when the power is off and they will retain memory for long periods (~ 100 years.) Joe At 11:17 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:50 AM 1/14/98 EST, you wrote: >>I own a grid laptop; a compass II 1129 to be exact. I got if from my brother >>who claimed it came from some nasa engineer and the computer played some >major >>part in shape shuttle flight/development or whatever. mine works fine, and >>even has some apps in some extra roms. it's not much of a portable machine >>though because it still has to run on ac power. gotta love the bouncing balls >>screen saver though! > >Never saw that screensaver on my Compass 1100. Mfg date on it is 1982, no >internal drives, no extra ROMs either. The 1100 used bubble memory. I still >haven't found a good explanation on what bubble memory is. Anyone know? I >do know that when I got it, there were files in there created back in '85 >that were still there, and I didn't see any battery inside to speak of, so >I guess this is a feature of bubble memory? I deleted files and created >some new ones and they saved fine. Trippy. > > >- John Higginbotham >- limbo.netpath.net > > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 14 14:45:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980114124133.0df71cdc@ricochet.net> Dunno if my message got out before netscrap died... FOr the web page: Gridpad 1910 power supply: Part No. 106286-00 Input: AC 100v - 240v ~ 50/60 Hz 1.0a Output: 17.25v .-. 2.0a + -o)- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 15:52:49 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:16 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103825.501f24f6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114155249.515f70f2@intellistar.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:48 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>> I think it's only portable in comparison to the mainframes of the time -- >[...] >>> that's really enough. You wouldn't have really taken it home to finish up >>> or to a client's office to do an audit. >> >>Why not? In fact, my unit traveled around Chicago for the movie theaters. >>It would be very reasonable to get a nice fibreglass or aluminum transit >>case made that would protect the screen. > >Well, I suppose it's possible (I mean, there are still a lot of wierdos out >there who haven't upgraded to Win95! 8^) but I can't go for it. I think >we'll have to agree to disagree. > >Of course, this means I need one for my collection, so I can show folks what >some people think is a portable computer... Wanna send me yours? 8^) > >>I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. > >I thought someone here said they didn't? I said they didn't but I don't know that for certain. I can find out though. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 15:55:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114155555.515f50e2@intellistar.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 09:36 PM 1/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>MAC toaster style Handle (yes on top of the unit)(Oops does that make it a >>portable?) > >Actually, an excellent point -- if the IBM 5100 is a portable, then, so too >is the compact mac? Even more so I would think (what with the considerably >lesser weight and addition of a handle?) > >In case y'all haven't guessed, I'm strongly against the idea of the IBM 5100 >being considered the first portable computer. 8^) Then what do you consider to be the first portable? > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:00:15 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103855.501f6d48@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114160015.0a371a68@intellistar.net> At 12:42 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 11:29 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I used mine NASA-style sometimes: Velcro'd to any flat surface. Slight >>change of subject: Does anyone know exactly what the first laptop to >>accompany shuttle astronauts into space was? I hear it's the GRiD Compass >>1100. I had that very model up until last week when I traded for a GRiD > >I've been told that the m100 is one of two commercially produced computers >certified for use on the shuttle. Never heard what the other was, but >perhaps it's the grid? I don't know if you'd consider it a computer, but the HP 41 was used on a number of shuttle flights. A friend of mine from HP went to Houston to teach the astronauts how to use the 41. I've heard that the HP 65 or 67 was used on some space flights even earlier, but I have not confirmed that. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:14:28 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: HP 9816 keyboard Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114161428.42077bf6@intellistar.net> Who was asking for a HP 9816 keyboard a while back? I have one now. Joe From red at bears.org Wed Jan 14 15:19:01 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Actually, an excellent point -- if the IBM 5100 is a portable, then, so too > is the compact mac? Even more so I would think (what with the considerably > lesser weight and addition of a handle?) I don't see why not.. I've taken my SE/30 with me on trips to visit my parents. I've even used it on the ferries here. It's great to haul out this 'real computer' and then shoot supercillious looks at all the commuter laptop-weenies as you mouse around and type a thousand words a minute (as loudly as possible) on a full sized keyboard... Is it me or does the SE/30 just radiate good karma? There's just something about it that makes it incredibly pleasant to use, even when its being grumpy (and mine's about as grumpy as they come). Whoops, these aren't quite 10 years old yet, being introduced January 1989. Maybe I should try it with a Plus, next time. Or a 128k. (: ok -r -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:52:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114165229.5b9772f6@intellistar.net> I found a non-working Osborne computer at a scrap dealers. I tried to test it but no lights came on or drives moved so I suspect a power supply problem. It's probably fixable without too much trouble. There is a similar one for sale on Auction Web. You can see pictures of it there "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123". The dealer wants $20 plus shipping. Anyone interested in it? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 16:55:32 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Weird Epson HX-20 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114165532.5b97d43a@intellistar.net> I found two Epson HC-20s today that appear to have GP-IB interfaces. They have indicator lites for most of the GP-IB signals in the plug in module and the module says GP-IB but the connector on it is a female BD-25 connector. Does anyone know for sure what this is? Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 16:00:43 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <69f95175.34bd358e@aol.com> the best compact computer for this would be a PS/2E (9533) it doesnt apply to this list because the announce date was ~1993 but its small, quiet (no fan), and has 4 pcmcia card slots. even though its only a 486slc, its quite snappy. i bought two for $30 and fixed them both. david In a message dated 98-01-14 13:44:22 EST, you write: << My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory and such. What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the fuse blows.) >> From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 14 16:33:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <199801142233.AA27618@world.std.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801142217.QAA04524@onyx.southwind.net> > Is it me or does the SE/30 just radiate good karma? There's just something > about it that makes it incredibly pleasant to use, even when its being > grumpy (and mine's about as grumpy as they come). It's definitely a karma thing. I have a Performa 200, which is the SE/30's grandchild (sort of). I am definitely pre-disposed to upgrading it, and using it for 'interesting' stuff. I recently picked up a monochrome SCSI scanner for it at a thrift for $10.00! The computer can hold 10Mb of ram max, I think. I really like it. It just works (as long as I remember to plug the SCSI terminator in). Jeff > > Whoops, these aren't quite 10 years old yet, being introduced January > 1989. > > Maybe I should try it with a Plus, next time. Or a 128k. (: > > ok > -r > -- > r e d @ b e a r s . o r g > ============================= > [ urs longa | vita brevis ] > > From ZGE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 16:46:13 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Question Message-ID: Greetings, I am new to the group , I posted a message a couple of days ago , I was not sure if it got out . Has anyone ever heard of a kx-33b 4-bit microcomputer or any 4-bit microcomputer trainer type units . thanks, Frank. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 14 12:13:31 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 In-Reply-To: <69f95175.34bd358e@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801142309.SAA01300@mail.cgocable.net> > the best compact computer for this would be a PS/2E (9533) it doesnt apply to > this list because the announce date was ~1993 but its small, quiet (no fan), > and has 4 pcmcia card slots. even though its only a 486slc, its quite snappy. > i bought two for $30 and fixed them both. A quick questions: Is that one of the "first Green Energy pc version" in a notebook sized tiny black box with a flat display panel? Well, we got excited over it but it was so weird and that weak 486SLC 33 cpu, I do have similar chip on a tiny motherboard by cyrix and it's dreadful slow even in DOOM, I had to keep it under half the size compared to my Luddite it did well one or two step above half way size o/c'ed to 25mhz and 4-way 4k cache enabled. But I did not remember this PS/2E cpu speed do you have the mhz speed? To have it that costs you 30 bux each for only about 5 years old thing, that is pretty lucky. What did you got with this pc in this deal? Funny, this Luddite is LTE 386s/20 sold as discontiuned in that '93 because you brought this year up reminded me. This notebook was first announced around early '92 or late '91. This notebook is still in use and sells around 100 to 200 with some s/w and stuff thrown in. Jason D. > david > > > In a message dated 98-01-14 13:44:22 EST, you write: > > << My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and memory > and > such. > > What I'd really like to find is an *affordable* compact > notebook/laptop/lunchbox with 1.5 (i.e., for a thick card) ISA expansion > slots to use as my voicemail machine. I thought I had that in my Altima 2, > but the *%$#@^% voicemail card has some components that stick out too far to > fit. My current machine ('286 desktop + composite monitor) is too noisy and > sucks up too much juice. (Oh, and battery power would be nice for when the > fuse blows.) >> > > From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jan 14 17:03:39 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS spec In-Reply-To: <199801142233.AA27618@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801142329.RAA05374@onyx.southwind.net> > In real terms as a data storage medium it would be poor becuase of bit > density and reliability. Boy, thats for sure! I remember seeing a program where they demonstrated a German steel tape recording from the late 1930's. The huge reels were spinning like mad, and the guy doing the show commented that these early "tape" players were potentially dangerous when the "tape" broke! And that was just for audio! Jeff > > Even disks/drums of the time were very low density even though some were > oxide coated or even a few cobalt plated. > > Allison > > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 14 17:42:24 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Hey, I can read these tapes! Message-ID: <13324252028.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I plugged my reader into my PC, set it for 2400 baud, and pushed READ. *WHIRR!* Big mess on the floor! We try this again at 300 baud, (Where I can catch the tape as it comes out) and it works fine. For the source tapes. When I assign PTR: to my new tape under E11 2.0, and boot, it says ?INVALID FORMAT or something along those lines... But I can read them! Takes about 15 minutes to read in a 1.5" thick tape. But, I should have images of all the tapes shortly... ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jan 14 17:58:54 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS spec In-Reply-To: <199801142329.RAA05374@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jan 14, 98 05:03:39 pm Message-ID: <9801142358.AA27439@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/e98884cd/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jan 13 20:30:57 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!! MS Dos In-Reply-To: <34c7092f.17039602@mail.swbell.net> References: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980113203057.006b5afc@pop3.concentric.net> yes you can download most of IBM's setup disk from their web site At 12:41 AM 1/14/98 GMT, you wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:34:50 -0700, you said: > >>Hello, >> My name is Mario Soto and I am looking for a version of MS Dos >>5.0 or earlier. The catch is I need it on 720k disk can you help? > >I think IBM has disk images available either on the WWW or via ftp. >I've only heard about such things and haven't found/downloaded >them. >_______________ > >Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net >Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, >Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. > > From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 19:04:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, ZGE wrote: > I am new to the group , I posted a message a couple of days ago , I was not > sure if it got out . Has anyone ever heard of a kx-33b 4-bit microcomputer or > any 4-bit microcomputer trainer type units . Frank, I just wanted you to know that your message was received. A lot of times though some messages tend to get buried amidst a great discussion or great debate. You posted your query in the middle of a flood, so there's a good chance that you got lost in the noise. There's also a good chance that nobody has ever heard of what you speak. I myself have not. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 19:39:15 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd2156$638f9460$0100007f@magnum> >>I have the complete set on mine: software neat case, manual (in French > >And where do you live? 8^) > Minnesnowta From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 18:18:41 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd214b$221383d0$0100007f@magnum> >>:) )and Power supply (220v :( )I would be interested in finding a US power >>supply as I don't think the machine can run for very long on the 10 alkaline >>bateries. > >Me too. I would think a generic ps from Radio Shack would work, but since I >haven't tried that I dunno... The PS says output 13V 1.9A (Ouch...) I don't think it is that standard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 18:16:43 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd214a$dbb71ff0$0100007f@magnum> >>How much did it go for? Just curious. > >$100 > >if I were a rich man... Funny I paid 100FF for mine (that's about $18) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 14 16:15:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 14, 98 00:52:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/ed59aa4d/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jan 14 19:29:29 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Need doc: Sony/Tek Model 308 Data Analyzer Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980114172929.007250e0@agora.rdrop.com> A new tool acquisition, but as is often the case, no docs... So, I'm looking for information on, or a set of manuals for a Sony/Tektronix Model 308 data analyzer. Thanks -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 14 19:44:43 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS spec In-Reply-To: <9801142358.AA27439@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 14, 98 03:58:54 pm Message-ID: <199801150144.UAA09190@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tim Shoppa once stated: > > Speaking of "huge reels", I recently got the chance to see an > IMAX projection room. The projector is on a 20 foot "elevator" that > moves the optics from loading position to projection > position. The reels are amazing - the film was about > 3 inches (70 mm?) wide, and the reels were about 3 feet in diameter. There > was a hand truck for the projectionist to use when loading/unloading > reels of film. I was quite impressed! When the IMAX theater in Ft. Lauderdale was upgraded (so it could show 3D IMAX films) one wall of the building had to be removed so that the new projector could be installed. -spc (Now, what this has to do with old computers, I'm not so sure ... ) From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 14 19:57:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Mac's & Good Karma In-Reply-To: <199801142217.QAA04524@onyx.southwind.net> References: <1.5.4.16.19980114103829.501f0834@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >> Is it me or does the SE/30 just radiate good karma? There's just something >> about it that makes it incredibly pleasant to use, even when its being >> grumpy (and mine's about as grumpy as they come). > >It's definitely a karma thing. I have a Performa 200, which is the >SE/30's grandchild (sort of). I am definitely pre-disposed to >upgrading it, and using it for 'interesting' stuff. I recently >picked up a monochrome SCSI scanner for it at a thrift for $10.00! > >The computer can hold 10Mb of ram max, I think. I really like it. >It just works (as long as I remember to plug the SCSI terminator in). Ah, this is one of the two reasons I didn't replace my SE/30 with the Colour Classic I got originally. The SE/30 can have a max of 32Mb of RAM, mine has 17Mb. Also, I found out that despite the fact they've both got 68030/16 processors the SE/30 is significantly faster! What can I say, my SE/30 is one of my favorite computers! I wouldn't mind haveing one of the 68040 upgrades, but for what I use it for, it doesn't even need it, it just plain screams along (thanks in part to the proper choice of software). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:17:27 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Need doc: Sony/Tek Model 308 Data Analyzer Message-ID: <01bd215b$b9c3a830$0100007f@magnum> I can make a copy for you for the cost of shipping. >So, I'm looking for information on, or a set of manuals for a >Sony/Tektronix Model 308 data analyzer. > >Thanks >-jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:21:19 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <01bd215c$43f1cd70$0100007f@magnum> If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one of mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. thanks for the post. > I found a non-working Osborne computer at a scrap dealers. I tried to >test it but no lights came on or drives moved so I suspect a power supply >problem. It's probably fixable without too much trouble. There is a >similar one for sale on Auction Web. You can see pictures of it there >"http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123". The >dealer wants $20 plus shipping. Anyone interested in it? > > Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 21:21:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 was Re: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114212131.3a57c110@intellistar.net> > > >>>I would not be suprised if IBM had a travel case. >> >>I thought someone here said they didn't? > > I said they didn't but I don't know that for certain. I can find out >though. > > Joe >> I did find out. IBM did offer a travel case for the IBM 5100. It was feature code # 1501. Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 21:24:14 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? In-Reply-To: <01bd215c$43f1cd70$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114212414.47675f26@intellistar.net> At 08:21 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one of >mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. >thanks for the post. I can get the connector if you're willing to buy the computer to get it and can tell me where it is in the machine. Joe > > >> I found a non-working Osborne computer at a scrap dealers. I tried to >>test it but no lights came on or drives moved so I suspect a power supply >>problem. It's probably fixable without too much trouble. There is a >>similar one for sale on Auction Web. You can see pictures of it there >>"http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4212123". The >>dealer wants $20 plus shipping. Anyone interested in it? >> >> Joe >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 09:13:10 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801150226.SAA02073@mx3.u.washington.edu> > >Good Composer: Handel ...so are we bach to making jokes here? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 19:55:08 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <52a3e070.34bd6c7e@aol.com> this PS/2E is a desktop machine, but in a very small form factor, a bit bigger and thicker than a modern laptop. it's a isa bus machine with one slot that is used for the pcmcia adaptor. it was supposed to be marketed with an lcd, but i've never seen one. the owner's manual shows it. with the two that i got, they came with original boxes, documentation and disks and even a never opened copy of pcdos 5.0! the good thing about ps2 machines is that not many know about them. the seller thought they were no good and sold at a cheap price. the first needed its passwoid jumper reset and the second machine's floppy drive cable wasnt connected good causing a 165 post and wouldnt boot from the start disk for a reconfig. it was still under warranty, so i just called in where i worked, and had a floppy drive sent out under warranty. the machines also have the keyboard with the mouse pointing stick built in which i like. i gave one to my brother and the other i'm keeping. win95 not supported though, but os2 2.1 and dos/win work fine. once i figure out pcmcia stuff, i plan to ethernet it to the two modern wintel machines i have going now. it has power management built in, and even locks in pcmcia cards for security. like most ps2 machines, also has xga built in. In a message dated 98-01-14 18:11:47 EST, you write: << A quick questions: Is that one of the "first Green Energy pc version" in a notebook sized tiny black box with a flat display panel? Well, we got excited over it but it was so weird and that weak 486SLC 33 cpu, I do have similar chip on a tiny motherboard by cyrix and it's dreadful slow even in DOOM, I had to keep it under half the size compared to my Luddite it did well one or two step above half way size o/c'ed to 25mhz and 4-way 4k cache enabled. But I did not remember this PS/2E cpu speed do you have the mhz speed? To have it that costs you 30 bux each for only about 5 years old thing, that is pretty lucky. What did you got with this pc in this deal? Funny, this Luddite is LTE 386s/20 sold as discontiuned in that '93 because you brought this year up reminded me. This notebook was first announced around early '92 or late '91. This notebook is still in use and sells around 100 to 200 with some s/w and stuff thrown in. Jason D. >> From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:23:37 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd215c$9618afb0$0100007f@magnum> OK I'll get an EE to help me out. Did you ever used that with a monitor? is the 60 Hz vs 50 Hz a problem? >When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >your uncle. > >PS If you can't work out how to do it from the above, don't try it >yourself, get someone with some more electrical knowledge :-) > >Philip. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:32:46 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. Thanks for the help. >I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There >are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may >take some time. > > Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 20:56:59 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <01bd2161$3f393520$0100007f@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:56 PM Subject: Re: Anybody want an Osborne? >At 08:21 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >>If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one of >>mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. >>thanks for the post. > > I can get the connector if you're willing to buy the computer to get it >and can tell me where it is in the machine. > > Joe I don't think I would pay $20 for just a connector. It' the little thingy on the right below thew storage under the floppy, it has white writing on it that says "do not remove while power is on". this is where you plug in an extenal monitor but if you want to use the internal one, you have to have this loopback. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 22:01:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114220112.57d72316@intellistar.net> Sounds like a good idea. I have been keeping requests for things to look for in a "wishlist" folder. Today I found a keyboard for a HP 9816 today that someone was looking for. I also found a dead Osborne and a bunch of PS2s. Anyone want some PS2s? model 30, 50, 50 Z, 70 386, 55 and others. There are two pallet loads and they're located in Orlando Florida. The owner will probably take $10 -$15 each. NO SHIPPING at that price, he ownes a business and packing etc just takes too much time. I'm looking for a HP 9845 C. Joe At 08:32 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. > >Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going >to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. >That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. >Thanks for the help. > >>I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There >>are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may >>take some time. >> >> Joe >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 14 22:03:25 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? In-Reply-To: <01bd2161$3f393520$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980114220325.57d759f8@intellistar.net> At 08:56 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:56 PM >Subject: Re: Anybody want an Osborne? > > >>At 08:21 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>If you can get just the video loopback connector I'll be interested, one >of >>>mine is missing it and I would like to replace it with an original. >>>thanks for the post. >> >> I can get the connector if you're willing to buy the computer to get it >>and can tell me where it is in the machine. >> >> Joe >I don't think I would pay $20 for just a connector. It' the little thingy on It may be a little thing but the owner's not going to let me start taking pieces off. Sorry. Joe >the right below thew storage under the floppy, it has white writing on it >that says "do not remove while power is on". this is where you plug in an >extenal monitor but if you want to use the internal one, you have to have >this loopback. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 20:56:42 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <58b0fa10.34bd7aec@aol.com> if this happens, count me in. there's plenty of radio rallies coming up in nc in the spring. In a message dated 98-01-14 21:49:23 EST, you write: << That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. Thanks for the help. >I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There >are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may >take some time. > > Joe >> From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 14 21:16:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going > to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. > That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. > Thanks for the help. The problem with this is determining how much one wants to pay for a particular system. You have to make sure in advance you know everyone's limit. Some people may not know what a reasonable price is, and may over-pay or put an unreasonable low limit on something they might want. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 20:40:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: Message-ID: <34BD7712.398596D8@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) > > half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill > > Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) > > I really do not buy this point. Just about every software development > company I know of uses a revision control system to keep every bit of > working code that the programmers type out. This includes the hundreds > of tiny revisions that are made between releases, even the "dead-ends". That's _formal, professional_ programmers with systems that support revision control -- how much of the development for eight-bit micros was done on systems without such formal structure back in the 70s, early 80s? -- I'd wager a gagload. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 21:23:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <9801141425.AA26953@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <34BD8132.B48ABF42@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Well, Windows is a very recent development compared to Microsoft's > entire history :-). I've sold several S-100 based systems with 8" > floppy drives, paper tape readers, etc., to Microsoft employees who > are hoping to make backups of the first ten years of Microsoft > software in the archives there. (No, as far as I can tell this > isn't an official Microsoft program. However, most code-writing > employees are allowed to peruse the archives in their Copious > Free Time.) And Paul Allen just bought a XKL (PDP-10 clone), in > part to recreate their original software development environment - I think! Well, as I recall, Windows was part of the promise when the Tandy 2000 premiered in August or September of 1983. At the time, Bill had been in the "formal" computer business less than ten years -- he dropped out of Harvard (voluntarily) in '74 to write software, while I went from Georgia Tech into the USAF due to lack of funds to pay for a much less expensive school (dropping out of Harvard is a sign of "entrepreneurship" [sp]), enlisting is a sign of poverty -- a lot of family money provided Microsoft's starting capital no matter what the official biographies say -- poor people don't drop out of Harvard). So, at present, the promise (let alone the "reality" of Windows is more than 60% of the history of Microsoft at minimum (I forget when the name "Microsoft" happened). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 21:26:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Weird Epson HX-20 References: <3.0.1.16.19980114165532.5b97d43a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34BD81D0.372B09C3@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > I found two Epson HC-20s today that appear to have GP-IB interfaces. They > have indicator lites for most of the GP-IB signals in the plug in module > and the module says GP-IB but the connector on it is a female BD-25 A female BD-25 connector? I've been looking for a dominatrix that young who won't reject me for being as old as Bill Gates. :-) > connector. Does anyone know for sure what this is? > > Joe -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 21:30:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd214a$dbb71ff0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <34BD82DF.8D2FDED1@cnct.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > > >>How much did it go for? Just curious. > > > >$100 > > > >if I were a rich man... > > Funny I paid 100FF for mine (that's about $18) Yes, but they aren't so _rare_ in France. Price and scarcity factors apply. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 21:56:18 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd2169$88996980$0100007f@magnum> If the price is too low then the item is not bought, if it is too high then there is some magin to negociate with the seller. I've almost never paid the asking price for anything (unless bought in a store) but usually hamfests garage sales and flea markets are pretty flexible. Let's say that I am looking for machine X and my max for it is $22, if you find one for $25 it is possible to negotiate. Or we could set a price range. Then there is the shipping, if I go to a hamfest with a list of 25 machines that others are looking for and find let's say 7, they won't fit in my car for one thing (I'll probably by stuff for me too;), and I have to package them all and ship them etc... Like I said I was only thinking about it. It may be feasible for a small group of people but I don't think it could be open to all. (no discriminations intended just practical stuff) Anyways I believe that it is possible but you have to trust the people you work with and limit the wishlist. >The problem with this is determining how much one wants to pay for a >particular system. You have to make sure in advance you know everyone's >limit. Some people may not know what a reasonable price is, and may >over-pay or put an unreasonable low limit on something they might want. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 20:17:27 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801150342.TAA09925@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > I don't know if you'd consider it a computer, but the HP 41 was used on > a number of shuttle flights. A friend of mine from HP went to Houston to > teach the astronauts how to use the 41. I've heard that the HP 65 or 67 > was used on some space flights even earlier, but I have not confirmed that. EDUCalc used to advertise that the '41 went on shuttle flights. I always wondered if theirs was more reliable than mine, which was dreadfully prone to static crashes. Why don't laptops suffer from that -- more massive? Better circuitry? From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 20:24:48 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... Message-ID: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Where did the following terms come from? -Dongle -Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) -Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) -DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) -Mouse manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 14 20:30:04 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcomi Message-ID: <199801150343.TAA03118@mx4.u.washington.edu> > The reels are amazing - the film was about > 3 inches (70 mm?) wide, Yes. Standard film width (altho' a lot is done on 35mm nowadays, due to improved film. 70mm is for when a lot of special effects are needed.) That's where Leica came up with 35mm, btw -- they cut 70mm cine film in half. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 22:07:53 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Well let me tell you a good/disgusting one: I spent 4 full days going from junck store to junk store trying to find Classics. All 30 or so stores visited told me the same story: We do not keep them! We throw them out as soon as they come in! There is no market for that kind of stuff. I only found two classic in my search: the PPC512 through a coworker of my brother in law and an Exelvision EXL100 at an Apple dealer (the guy was stunned to have somebody come in and ask for classics, then remembered that he had one in the warehouse from 10 years ago and had kindof forgot about it). The only other on that I've seen was an atari 600XL at an outdoor junkyard it had about an inch of dust on top of it and when I picked it up some water poured out of it. So I guess that the price I paid is only because the guy was happy to even get money for it. Oh yeah I also met a collector over there he had a used computer sotre (PeeCee stuff) and he said they are hard to find but he knew a few places. He never told me where. If you are looking for french machine you'll have to go to the dumpsters or knock on doors in order to find anything. >Yes, but they aren't so _rare_ in France. Price and scarcity factors apply. >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Wed Jan 14 22:04:13 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >-Mouse I think that's because they look like mice, the cord being the tail... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Wed Jan 14 22:07:11 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: >Well let me tell you a good/disgusting one: I spent 4 full days going from >junck store to junk store trying to find Classics. All 30 or so stores >visited told me the same story: >We do not keep them! We throw them out as soon as they come in! There is no >market for that kind of stuff. Well, in that case, what I would do(if I had the money, which I don't) is go around and make deals with the stores to buy that old equipment from them when it comes in... Then you can fix them up, keep what you like and sell the rest to people that actually like the older systems. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From ZGE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 21:53:39 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Question Message-ID: <48b38c77.34bd8845@aol.com> Thanks for the response Sam . Frank From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 22:12:05 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... References: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34BD8C95.15EEE183@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > Where did the following terms come from? > > -Dongle Probably from "dangle", as a couple of those damned things on a parallel cord caused the cable to do so dangerously and with frequent disconnects unless extra bits and pieces were bought to tie them together. > -Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) Byte came first. A nybble (originally spelled nibble even in the computer trade) was half a byte -- a byte isn't derived from two nybbles, ask Marv Albert. > -Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) Big iron had to be racked in frames that were left in one place, even an industrial forklift couldn't move an assembled system in one piece. Smaller peripherals could stand in standalone racks (the old relay rack being the component of the frames), so the central system was the "main frame". > -DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) Can't help there, funny code terms happen with connectors. The "D" definitely refers to the shape, however. > -Mouse It's got a tail and it's small. And any cat with access to your desk will inform you that it's a very appropriately named cat toy. As I learned when I got my first 3B1. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 14 22:02:37 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Etymologies... Message-ID: <331b169a.34bd8a5f@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-14 22:46:14 EST, you write: << Where did the following terms come from? -Dongle -Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) -Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) -DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) -Mouse >> well, i'm sure we've all heard of how the story of how the dongle got it's name. at least the version i heard is that the "thing" was created by a character called Don Gall, and the name came forth from that. Sometimes i'll tell the story at work, and have almost gotten several people to believe it. lol. david From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 14 22:24:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <34BD8F7B.8521275D@cnct.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > If you are looking for french machine you'll have to go to the dumpsters or > knock on doors in order to find anything. > > >Yes, but they aren't so _rare_ in France. Price and scarcity factors > apply. Jeez, and the French will store vinegar for 200 years on the slim chance it might still be wine. (And stupid Americans will pay high prices for it -- the French won't touch the stuff, they know the chances!). Properly bottled brandy, yes. Wine, no way. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 14 17:56:36 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980114220112.57d72316@intellistar.net> References: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <199801150452.XAA14960@mail.cgocable.net> > Sounds like a good idea. I have been keeping requests for things to look > for in a "wishlist" folder. Today I found a keyboard for a HP 9816 today > that someone was looking for. I also found a dead Osborne and a bunch of > PS2s. Anyone want some PS2s? model 30, 50, 50 Z, 70 386, 55 and others. > There are two pallet loads and they're located in Orlando Florida. The > owner will probably take $10 -$15 each. NO SHIPPING at that price, he > ownes a business and packing etc just takes too much time. Thanks for keeping your eye out for me as well as other collectors. PS/2, excuse me it seems to sounds too much to keep in mind but really only wanted to give you flexiable choices. Okie, Try these: Model 8570-A61, -A81, -A21, or -A16, maybe one more machine that has MCA scsi controller or netcard using either BNC or 10baseT or both. If seller has that machine that has 8570-Bxx it's model 70 with 486 in it or P75 by chance. I'm looking for decent machine to use for linux for this reason and trying to wash of cheapo junk littering my closet and these two cards to make me happy. To be clearly: Hitlist in this order: P75 has scsi, 70-486, 90 XP (8590-0Jx or -0Kx, scsi feature already in there.) or finally lesser 386 in -Axx series and these cards. Budget: $50 for one or one machine and one P75, or two machines available from those 2 slips, also some tidbit parts to go with them and one 101 keyboard /w status lights w/ or w/o cord. Thanks! Jason D. > I'm looking for a HP 9845 C. > > Joe > > At 08:32 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: > >That's no problem I can wait to complete my collection. > > > >Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going > >to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. > >That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. > >Thanks for the help. > > > >>I'm in Orlando, Florida. I've added your list to my wish list. There > >>are several hamfests coming up soon. I'll see what I can find, but it may > >>take some time. > >> > >> Joe > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Francois Auradon. > >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > > > > > > From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 15 00:08:36 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <34BD8F7B.8521275D@cnct.com> References: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115000836.009dfbf0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Ward Donald Griffiths III head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Jeez, and the French will store vinegar for 200 years on the slim >chance it might still be wine. (And stupid Americans will pay high >prices for it -- the French won't touch the stuff, they know the >chances!). Properly bottled brandy, yes. Wine, no way. Uh, for the record I usually fall under that "stupid American" moniker, but in this case I do have to admit that a fine French wine turned to vinegar makes some of the best cooking vinegar in the world! Any French[wo]men out there wanna send me a coupla jugs for free, I'll take 'em! ;-) Oh, and I'll take any computers, too (just to keep the thread on track!) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 15 00:16:56 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:17 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <34BD7712.398596D8@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115001656.009d8100@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Ward Donald Griffiths III head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >William Donzelli wrote: >> >> > This is very true. Most programmers don't preserve (at least for very long) >> > half-completed software -- even if it was never completed. (Well, Bill >> > Gates and WinBlows anything is an exception!!! ;-) >> >> I really do not buy this point. Just about every software development >> company I know of uses a revision control system to keep every bit of >> working code that the programmers type out. This includes the hundreds >> of tiny revisions that are made between releases, even the "dead-ends". > >That's _formal, professional_ programmers with systems that support >revision control -- how much of the development for eight-bit micros >was done on systems without such formal structure back in the 70s, >early 80s? -- I'd wager a gagload. Ward, That was the point I was making myself -- Sure you can pick up Linux 1.2.13, but can you get a copy of "Merch's Half-Written CoCo3 OS-9 Level2 (Basic09) Multi-Color, Multi-Window Genealogy Program with Built In Help"??? Thankfully, yes, if you give me a week or so to dig it up! And there's a lot of software for Tandy CoCos (for example -- I'm sure the problem may be rather widespread) that just seems like it cannot be found. Whether it was actually bad code, or expensive code, or whatever, there's a lot of software packages that I've asked around for for quite some time and cannot turn a copy up to beat the band. (For purchase, archiving or otherwise) It's a shame -- Looking at FHL's (Frank Hogg's Laboratories) old ads there was a boatload of software like the Flex OS, 3 or 4 different Basics, COBOL, Pascal, Macro Assemblers / Disassembles, etc. for that OS alone, that may have gone *Poof* and may never be seen again. It would be a shame to lose it like that. Just MHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Jan 15 00:03:32 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Looking for a 14 pin DIN cable Message-ID: <34BDA6B4.5C0E@digiweb.com> Doea anyone have a spare 14 connector DIN cable? I need one for connecting a disk drive to my Thomson TO-8 computer. I believe the same cable is used to connect drives to the Atari ST series machines. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Jan 15 00:17:01 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <34BDA9DD.33A2@digiweb.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > If you are looking for french machine you'll have to go to the dumpsters or > knock on doors in order to find anything. My experience living in Grenoble, France is quite different. Over the past 9 months I have collected quite a respectable collection of micro-computers mostly picked up for the normal FF 100 (~$20) at the local flea markets. I also regularly visit the "Cash Converter" type store who sometimes have interesting offerings at not unreasonable prices. (e.g found an ATMOS for FF 150 and an Exelvision ExTel for FF200). Of course I go green with envy when I hear of the low prices of systems in the US. The last but one time I visited I came back with 2 suitcases crammed with goodies collected on a weekend scrounge around Silicon Valley guided by Sam Ismail. If anyone is interested in the older European computers, I regularly see and pass by Amstrad machines. I would be happy to pick them up and pass them on as long as I'm not out of pocket. Shipping is always an issue, but if folks are willing to wait, I usually get tot he states once or twice a year and can, and have, brought systems over for "free" - just the cost of UPS shipping within the States. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Jan 15 00:01:05 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... References: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34BDA621.4A70@digiweb.com> PG Manney wrote: > > Where did the following terms come from? > > -Dongle > -Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) > -Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) > -DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) > -Mouse > > manney@nwohio.com From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 15 00:38:20 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Availability? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115003820.00991a50@mail.northernway.net> This was just sent to me, and I am forwarding it unto you in case any of y'all can help this guy out -- sounds like a good guy to me. Please respond directly to him if you can help him out. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------- >Delivered-To: zmerch@northernway.net >Delivered-To: m600@list.northernway.net >X-Authentication-Warning: rac6.wam.umd.edu: kosack owned process doing -bs >Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:18:51 -0500 (EST) >From: Daniel S Kosack >To: m600@list.northernway.net >Subject: Availability? > > >Howdy, > > I'm curious to know how available used T600's are. I have a T1400, but >I think a T600 would actually be more useful considering I have no hard >drive and DOS apps are large. I'm a big MS-Works 1.0 fan (I have the DOS >version, which fits on multiple disks) so I think I would get along with a >T600 just fine. I remember when they first came out, and I've got a few >100's, so I'm somewhat familiar with the line. > > Thanks for any info. I'm in the greater Washington DC metro area >(United States). If there are any used/refurb computer places you know of >in that vacinity that may have one, I'd be interested. I'd be even more >interested if I could possibly trade my 1400LT for one (it's not in the >best of shape, bad battery and not so hot screen anymor and manuals are >lost, but it works). > >Dan Kosack. -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From billm at teleport.com Wed Jan 14 23:52:08 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (Bill Marx) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!! MS Dos In-Reply-To: <34BC0829.7E66@cibola.net> from "Mario Soto" at Jan 13, 98 05:34:50 pm Message-ID: <199801150552.VAA13805@user2.teleport.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/3dff534f/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jan 14 23:53:28 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 14, 98 09:24:48 pm Message-ID: <9801150553.AA29761@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/fc3a230c/attachment.ksh From billm at teleport.com Wed Jan 14 23:55:15 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (Bill Marx) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Looking for a 14 pin DIN cable In-Reply-To: <34BDA6B4.5C0E@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at Jan 15, 98 06:03:32 am Message-ID: <199801150555.VAA14217@user2.teleport.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980114/9925af13/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Thu Jan 15 00:05:05 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: <9801150553.AA29761@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > connectors, like the 15-pin VGA connector in a E-size shell. A lot > of my DG equipment uses an even higher density connector, 23 pins > in the same shell. While the "subminiature" series is interchangable > between manufacturers, the higher density versions often are often > incompatible. (Take a look through the nearly 300 pages of connectors > in a Newark catalog for many of the more common variations!) The VGA connector is a DE-15 and is standard. There is also a high density DB connector (44 pins, I think), used rarely. It is true about the standards going out the window. Believe it or not, Cisco jams _60_ pins into a DA connector. The D connector is an oldie - it was used by the military for many years in aircraft radio and radar gear. I once (may still have) had a chart with just about all of the variations of the standard (probably a MIL-C- thingie), including the weird ones with coax and high current pins. The only weird variation to survive is the DB-13W3, used for Sun video. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Jan 14 22:56:17 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS spec In-Reply-To: <199801142329.RAA05374@onyx.southwind.net> References: <199801142233.AA27618@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980114205617.006cf77c@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 05:03 PM 98/01/14 -0600, you wrote: >Boy, thats for sure! I remember seeing a program where they >demonstrated a German steel tape recording from the late 1930's. The >huge reels were spinning like mad, and the guy doing the show >commented that these early "tape" players were potentially dangerous >when the "tape" broke! Hmmm, I wonder if I could set up a continuous loop playback on my neighbour's bandsaw? Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From pvhp at forte.com Thu Jan 15 00:15:01 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: firsts (guis) Message-ID: <9801150615.AA09695@forte.com> Regarding the first GUI: It would seem that Douglas Englebart's work at the "Augmentation Research Center" (ARC) of the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in Menlo Park was the first GUI and was demonstrated at the Fall 1968 Joint Computer Conference in the San Francisco Civic Auditorium by Englebart. The computer used was the one at ARC (model unknown?) and was microwave linked to the display in the Auditorium. Input devices included a keyboard, a 3 button mouse (invented 4 years earlier by Englebart), and a chord keyset - described as an input device that resembled a five key segment cut from a piano keyboard. Alan Kay was in attendance at that show and drew inspiration for his later work at Xerox PARC on SmallTalk and the Xerox Alto (released in 1973, 2000 were made and it is credited as "a contender for the title of world's first personal computer"). The reference with all these claims is none other than the "Input/Ouput" volume of the Time-Life "Understanding Computers" series (c) 1986 (L.O.C. QA76.1486 1986 004 85-28832; ISBN: 0-8094-5666-4 or 0-8094-5666-2 (library binding)). There is a picture of Englebart conducting "a reprise" of his Joint Computer Conference show on page 65. Peter Prymmer From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jan 15 00:18:15 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980114221815.02fc97d8@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 09:24 PM 98/01/14 -0500, you wrote: >Where did the following terms come from? > >-Dongle I recall adverts claiming that this device was invented by a "Don Gall" who got frustrated when his software was indiscriminately pirated in the mid 80s. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From pvhp at forte.com Thu Jan 15 01:04:11 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... Message-ID: <9801150704.AA10648@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Etymologies... PG Manney wrote: >Where did the following terms come from? > >-Dongle ? >-Byte (named after nybble, or vice-versa?) In support of Eric Raymonds's Hacker's Dictionary Dennis Shasha and Cathy Lazere* attribute the coinage of the term byte to Werner Bucholz who was chief architect of the IBM Stretch project. That being the late 1950's/ early 1960's I suspect that spellings such as "byte" and "nybble" were also puns of another sort: at that time a good deal of comedy material was floating around concerning the fad that had sprung up after world war II to name various small businesses along the lines of "Ye Olde Cheese Shoppe", "Ye Olde Liquore Store", "Ye Olde Flowere Shoppe" and such like. The intent was to convey some old world charm and respectability but by the early 60's "Ye Olde Used Carre Lotte" had a humourous ring to it and was lampooned in cartoons (I think things like Hanna-Barberra's Flintstones poked fun at "Ye Olde..."). Hence the "binary digit" -> bit (from the 1930s) became "byte" a larger and more respectable measure of storage (BTW in IBM speak one never mentions 'memory' it is 'storage'). At that time (early 60's) a four bit instruction set was not unheard of for computers hence the half byte or nybble came into being (simple pun on bite/nibble). *"Out of their Minds: The lives and discoveries of 15 Great Computer Scientists" (c) 1995 ISBN: 0-387-97992-1 >-Mainframe (Why not just...like..you know...call it a computer?) One of the basic units of IBM packaging is the "frame" which _roughly_ translates to four squarish 19" racks stuck together in a square. A given computer installation may have one or more frames for DASD (pronounced Dazz-dee meaning "Direct access storage device" or disk drive), a DASD controller (no kidding these things occupy a whole frame) and the Central Electronic Complex (CEC or CPU - a.k.a. the "Main" frame) >-DB (as in DB-15, 25) I've also heard them called D-sub xx) ? >-Mouse Apparently invented around 1964 by Douglas Englebart - according to Time/Life books "Understanding Computers" series. In the "Input/Output" volume on page 67 referring to equipment used at The 1968 Fall Joint Computer Conference in San Francisco: Technically known as an "x-y position indicator for a system," it was something Englebart had invented four years earlier and had named - because of its small size and tail-like cable - a mouse. Peter Prymmer From phunkchyld at usa.net Wed Jan 14 02:34:29 1998 From: phunkchyld at usa.net (phunkchyld@usa.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Original IMSAI Board and Documentation for sale Message-ID: First of all, let me apologize to anyone receiving this email who considers it garbage. Have several items related to the IMSAI computer for sale: Vector Graphic, Inc. [Rev 3] PROM/RAM BOARD w/cable and connector/pins. MAY 1976 IMSAI Complete Product Catalog - "The Complete Microcomputer System". Original price $1 IMSAI Domestic Price List for November '77 Invoice dated '78 (from IMSAI). Comes in what I assume is the original box, but this cannot be verified. Card has never been used and accessory items are still in original packaging. If you are interested, please make an offer an all items. JPEG's can be sent upon request, and I will try to answer any questions. Thanks Andrew By the way, although I don't collect computers, I might trade for an interesting old Apple or Atari. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 06:56:31 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <01bd21b5$00267740$ab68420c@magnum> That is totally understandable. Oh well. >>> Joe >>I don't think I would pay $20 for just a connector. It' the little thingy on > > It may be a little thing but the owner's not going to let me start taking >pieces off. Sorry. > > Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From michael_wilson at geocities.com Wed Jan 14 22:12:10 1998 From: michael_wilson at geocities.com (Michael Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: WTB: SDS/XDS Sigma 7 and Honeywell CP-V manuals Message-ID: <000001bd21b4$194f4fe0$7185410c@michael> I am looking for manuals for the Sigma 7 computer system and the Honeywell CP-V operating system. Would appreciate any information about, or leads to help find these items. Thanks, David Wilson dmwilson@worldnet.att.net or David_Wilson@StrategicFulfillment.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 09:54:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Original IMSAI Board and Documentation for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115095431.205f043a@intellistar.net> At 02:34 AM 1/14/98, you wrote: >First of all, let me apologize to anyone receiving this email who >considers it garbage. Andrew, I don't consider it garbage but you don't need to repost it everyday. Joe > >Have several items related to the IMSAI computer for sale: > >Vector Graphic, Inc. [Rev 3] PROM/RAM BOARD w/cable and >connector/pins. > >MAY 1976 IMSAI Complete Product Catalog - "The Complete Microcomputer >System". Original price $1 > >IMSAI Domestic Price List for November '77 > >Invoice dated '78 (from IMSAI). > >Comes in what I assume is the original box, but this cannot be >verified. Card has never been used and accessory items are still in original >packaging. > >If you are interested, please make an offer an all items. JPEG's can >be sent upon request, and I will try to answer any questions. > >Thanks >Andrew > >By the way, although I don't collect computers, I might trade for an >interesting old Apple or Atari. > > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com > > From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 15 08:35:20 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: References: <9801150553.AA29761@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199801151454.IAA27386@onyx.southwind.net> > The D connector is an oldie - it was used by the military for many years > in aircraft radio and radar gear. I once (may still have) had a chart with > just about all of the variations of the standard (probably a MIL-C- > thingie), including the weird ones with coax and high current pins. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh yeah! I remember those! The first cellular car phones made by Motorola had an A size plug which had some data pins near the center, and big, fat power pins on either side. Never saw anything like it before. It sure looked wierd at the time . . . Jeff > > The only weird variation to survive is the DB-13W3, used for Sun video. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 10:08:51 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: References: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115100851.205f84d6@intellistar.net> At 07:16 PM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > >> Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going >> to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. >> That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. >> Thanks for the help. > >The problem with this is determining how much one wants to pay for a >particular system. You have to make sure in advance you know everyone's >limit. Some people may not know what a reasonable price is, and may >over-pay or put an unreasonable low limit on something they might want. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Another problem is knowing if they still want the item. If you tell me that you want an X-computer and I buy one for you 2 months later I don't want to hear that you've changed your mind or that you've already found one. If anyone isn't going to take the stuff that they said they wanted then don't post a message saying that you want it. If you post a "wanted" message then you're obligated to take it when someone gets it for you. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 10:11:05 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Weird Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: <34BD81D0.372B09C3@cnct.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980114165532.5b97d43a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115101105.205f74fc@intellistar.net> At 10:26 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> I found two Epson HC-20s today that appear to have GP-IB interfaces. They >> have indicator lites for most of the GP-IB signals in the plug in module >> and the module says GP-IB but the connector on it is a female BD-25 > >A female BD-25 connector? I've been looking for a dominatrix that >young who won't reject me for being as old as Bill Gates. :-) If you were as rich as Bill, then you wouldn't have that problem. :-/ From kevan at heydon.org Thu Jan 15 09:18:51 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (kevan@heydon.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Demand for old computers by commercial organisations? Message-ID: <199801151518.PAA27303@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Has this happened to anyone else: Tonight someone is travelling half the country to pick up and borrow one of my old computers, so that they can port a legacy system they have to PCs. The computer in Question is a Sage IV, and it appears that their unit has failed and they found me via my web pages. Out of the deal I am getting the rest of the Sage's they have when the port is over and they no longer need them. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 10:21:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801150342.TAA09925@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115102146.205fe3b4@intellistar.net> At 09:17 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I don't know if you'd consider it a computer, but the HP 41 was used >on >> a number of shuttle flights. A friend of mine from HP went to Houston to >> teach the astronauts how to use the 41. I've heard that the HP 65 or 67 >> was used on some space flights even earlier, but I have not confirmed >that. > >EDUCalc used to advertise that the '41 went on shuttle flights. I always >wondered if theirs was more reliable than mine, which was dreadfully prone >to static crashes. > >Why don't laptops suffer from that -- more massive? Better circuitry? The circuitry in the 41 is VERY low power CMOS instead of TTL. That makes it much more prone to static. Also some 41s were more prone to static than others. Some 41 users found that putting a sheet of the anti-static material made to throw into clothes dryers in the case with the 41 made it less sensative to static. I live in hot & humid Florida. No static crashes here! Joe From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Jan 15 09:55:00 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? AND Upcoming PBS special on bit rot In-Reply-To: <199801142018.PAA07098@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980115105500.00b5ba20@mail.wincom.net> At 03:18 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >These two threads just bumped together in my head. Has anybody got >an idea of how long data should last on wire? It can't have the same >problem with oxide coating that tapes do - the main problem might be >to keep any oxide coating from developing. :-) Are the early wire >recordings still readable? > >Maybe CDROMs beat wire in resisting rust, even if they are still not >quite perfect on that count. Still, something about the idea of using >such an old storage medium appeals to me. > >Anyone want to try running some fine ferrous wire through an old >cassette (or even reel-to-reel) recorder, and see if the result is >readable? Given Allison's warning about head-wear, I wouldn't try >it on my favorite stereo system. > >Just what we need, another incompatible storage medium. :-) > > Cheers, > Bill. > The wire recorder head has a deep groove as a guide, as well as a shuttle to wind the wire evenly on the spools. The quality is bad, the wire breaks easily, (I once found myself with a glob of wire about the size and shape of a hornets' nest when it broke while rewinding!) and is hard to splice. The procedure was to tie a knot in it then heat to aneal it. I have a book here somewhere on how to build your own wire recorder, but it might take a year or two to find it. Cheers Charlie Fox From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Jan 15 09:56:08 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980115105608.006939e4@mail.wincom.net> At 05:46 PM 1/14/98 EST, you wrote: >Greetings, > >I am new to the group , I posted a message a couple of days ago , I was not >sure if it got out . Has anyone ever heard of a kx-33b 4-bit microcomputer or >any 4-bit microcomputer trainer type units . > >thanks, >Frank. > This may not be what you have in mind, but the Heathkit ET 3400 was a trainer that used a 6800 processor, came with 256 bytes, (expandable to 512 bytes) had a 1K rom monitor program and had a hexadecimal keyboard and a six digit display. Cheers Charlie Fox From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 10:58:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: References: <01bd216b$26b16860$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115105818.2d17ab1e@intellistar.net> At 08:07 PM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Well let me tell you a good/disgusting one: I spent 4 full days going from >>junck store to junk store trying to find Classics. All 30 or so stores >>visited told me the same story: >>We do not keep them! We throw them out as soon as they come in! There is no >>market for that kind of stuff. >Well, in that case, what I would do(if I had the money, which I don't) is Why don't you just leave your phone number with them and ask them to call you when that stuff comes in. Tell them that you'll take it instead of them filling up their trash with it. I'll bet they'll do it. Joe >go around and make deals with the stores to buy that old equipment from >them when it comes in... Then you can fix them up, keep what you like and >sell the rest to people that actually like the older systems. > >-JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 15 08:59:20 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980115085920.00b871d0@pc> Tim Shoppa wrote: >I've sold several S-100 based systems with 8" >floppy drives, paper tape readers, etc., to Microsoft employees who >are hoping to make backups of the first ten years of Microsoft >software in the archives there. I'd love to exchange e-mail with them, if you still have their addresses. On my web page is the source and Win32 executables to Claus Giloi's Altair / IMSAI emulators. I think these are fun because they're GUI re-creations: you even have to click on the power switch to turn them on. In my Copious Spare Time, it would be fun to add virtual peripherals and sound effects: a Lancaster TV typewriter, ASR-33, disk drives, etc. I'd also like to archive some sample programs that people could toggle in... anyone out there have some in electronic form? I don't have real IMSAI/Altair just yet, but I'm working on it. >And Paul Allen just bought a XKL (PDP-10 clone), in >part to recreate their original software development environment - I think! Actually, that's Allen's company. Wouldn't it be nice to have nearly unlimited resources in order to fund your daydreams? Or is it more fun to dumpster-dive to save nifty bits? I'm not sure. :-) - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 15 08:44:18 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980115084418.00b85100@pc> Uncle Roger wrote: >My main problem with PS/2's is cost and scarcity of MCA cards and >memory and such. At the UW-Madison surplus shop, they have several banquet tables full of boxes of PS/2 MCA junk cards, all at ~dollar prices. I don't know what's in there, though. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 15 10:12:53 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Demand for old computers by commercial organisations? In-Reply-To: <199801151518.PAA27303@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 kevan@heydon.org wrote: > Has this happened to anyone else: > > Tonight someone is travelling half the country to pick up and borrow > one of my old computers, so that they can port a legacy system they > have to PCs. Well, yes. At least after a fashion, although so far the only org. that I have had to *loan* a computer to has been Microsoft. B^} I frequently get requests from various places and orgs. for assistance in recovering data from old systems for conversion to PCs and such. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From David_Wilson at StrategicFulfillment.com Thu Jan 15 10:41:18 1998 From: David_Wilson at StrategicFulfillment.com (David Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: WTB: Heathkit H8 computer Message-ID: <01BD21A2.1DF3AFD0@D_WILSON> Hello, I am looking for a Heathkit H8 computer. If anyone has one for sale, or knows of one, I would appreciate the information. Thanks, David Wilson David_Wilson@StrategicFulfillment.com - or - dmwilson@worldnet.att.net From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 15 11:12:29 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Science Odyssey on PBS Message-ID: Did anyone catch "A Science Odyssey" on PBS last night? It was great. They did a full 40 minutes or so on the dawn of the computer age. They went into some depth about SAGE and they even got the Altair in there with the obligatory issue of Popular Electronics. A very interesting episode. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From ZGE at aol.com Thu Jan 15 11:18:32 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Question Message-ID: <40ddbe40.34be44ea@aol.com> Thanks for the response , the Heathkit ET 3400 is a good trainer . The kx-33b had only data switches and I am guessing , possibly only 16 nibbles of ram . Not much you could do with it but I thought it looked interesting . I once saw an add for it in the December 1979 issue of Popular Electronics page 117. I also ran across an add for the NRI computer I had mentioned earlier PE. 3\77 Pg. 37 from the add it looks to be called a model 832 .If anyone has the chance to go to any computer shows\auctions lately and has seen these type of computers I would appreciate hearing from you . Frank From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 11:38:14 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd21dc$5b64b410$5b68420c@magnum> > Why don't you just leave your phone number with them and ask them to >call you when that stuff comes in. Tell them that you'll take it instead of >them filling up their trash with it. I'll bet they'll do it. > > Joe The problem is that I don't think they would be willing to make a $10 phone call in order to sell a $20 computer. Plus the trip to go get the machines would add an extra $600 to the price of the machine. I live in Minnesnowta:) Otherwise it might be possible (even though some of them told me that instead I should call regularly and maybe I would get lucky) for somebody living in France. I asked my brother in law to check once in a while (but then again this is NOT HIS hobby). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 15 11:26:33 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 15, 98 01:05:05 am Message-ID: <9801151726.AA30347@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980115/36c65506/attachment.ksh From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 11:48:28 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd21dd$c90eeed0$5b68420c@magnum> Tat goes without saying: placing a machine in a want list is also an engagement to purchase it. Otherwise the system would not work for too long. There should be an update prior to each outing to make sure that the machines are still wanted. let's say I'm going to a hamfest next WE, I post the info on that mailing list (for the ones that want to be part of the ring), then I get requests and bring the list of wanted with me. If i find one of the machines I buy it and let the party interested know about it. If I get an I don't want it anymore response I don't thinl I'll be looking for more of the guy's stuff. And I'll make sure that everybody knows about it. > Another problem is knowing if they still want the item. If you tell me >that you want an X-computer and I buy one for you 2 months later I don't >want to hear that you've changed your mind or that you've already found >one. > > If anyone isn't going to take the stuff that they said they wanted then >don't post a message saying that you want it. If you post a "wanted" >message then you're obligated to take it when someone gets it for you. > > Joe > From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 15 11:41:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd21dd$c90eeed0$5b68420c@magnum> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > Tat goes without saying: placing a machine in a want list is also an > engagement to purchase it. Otherwise the system would not work for too long. > There should be an update prior to each outing to make sure that the > machines are still wanted. > let's say I'm going to a hamfest next WE, I post the info on that mailing > list (for the ones that want to be part of the ring), then I get requests > and bring the list of wanted with me. If i find one of the machines I buy it > and let the party interested know about it. If I get an I don't want it > anymore response I don't thinl I'll be looking for more of the guy's stuff. > And I'll make sure that everybody knows about it. This could be done with a well maintained web page. Those using it would agree to abide by some groud rules, ie. if you have a wanted posting and someone finds and acquires the system for you then you must buy it from them. One way to keep the postings fresh is to have them expire after a week or some reasonably determined time period. That will ensure that listings do not go stale. The wantee would then be required to re-post his/her want regularly. Hmmm, I think I'll create just such a service at the VCF web page. This would be nice for advertising. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jan 15 11:58:48 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Anyone with an Ohio Scientific machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have several Ohio Scientific Challenger ][ machines but none of them are disk based. I'd be willing to trade some of them in exchange toward getting a disk based system up and running. I don't have the inventory off the top of my head but I can sure figure out what I have and see if we have any trading possibilities. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 13:01:28 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <01bd21dc$5b64b410$5b68420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115130128.2467b744@intellistar.net> At 11:38 AM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: > >> Why don't you just leave your phone number with them and ask them to >>call you when that stuff comes in. Tell them that you'll take it instead of >>them filling up their trash with it. I'll bet they'll do it. >> >> Joe > >The problem is that I don't think they would be willing to make a $10 phone >call in order to sell a $20 computer. >Plus the trip to go get the machines would add an extra $600 to the price of >the machine. >I live in Minnesnowta:) >Otherwise it might be possible (even though some of them told me that >instead I should call regularly and maybe I would get lucky) for somebody >living in France. I asked my brother in law to check once in a while (but >then again this is NOT HIS hobby). >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. Oh I guess you live out in the sticks somewhere. I WISH I had that problem! Can you have them call your brother in law and have him pick them up and save them for you. Or he can take the massages and hold them till you come to town IF the trift is willing to willing to leave them sitting around until you come to town. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 13:17:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <01bd21dd$c90eeed0$5b68420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115131701.3a57617c@intellistar.net> At 11:48 AM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >Tat goes without saying: placing a machine in a want list is also an >engagement to purchase it. Otherwise the system would not work for too long. >There should be an update prior to each outing to make sure that the >machines are still wanted. That's not practical for me. I went looking (and found :-) last Saturday, yesterday (found more) and I will go again today ( I know where there's a keyboard that I need) and again next Thursday (big NASA auction) for certain. I look a lot, that's why I find a lot. One of the FEW advantages of living in a big city. Joe > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 15 12:11:58 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Anyone with an Ohio Scientific machine? Message-ID: I have a C1P and i discovered someone else at work used to work with them extensively. He might have some parts. I think I might have some disk controller boards, but all my schematics and printed material is out on loan right now. david In a message dated 98-01-15 12:59:46 EST, you write: << I have several Ohio Scientific Challenger ][ machines but none of them are disk based. I'd be willing to trade some of them in exchange toward getting a disk based system up and running. I don't have the inventory off the top of my head but I can sure figure out what I have and see if we have any trading possibilities. George >> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 13:25:00 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: References: <01bd21dd$c90eeed0$5b68420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115132500.3a5712aa@intellistar.net> Sam, Sounds like a good idea. Go for it! Joe At 09:41 AM 1/15/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > >> Tat goes without saying: placing a machine in a want list is also an >> engagement to purchase it. Otherwise the system would not work for too long. >> There should be an update prior to each outing to make sure that the >> machines are still wanted. >> let's say I'm going to a hamfest next WE, I post the info on that mailing >> list (for the ones that want to be part of the ring), then I get requests >> and bring the list of wanted with me. If i find one of the machines I buy it >> and let the party interested know about it. If I get an I don't want it >> anymore response I don't thinl I'll be looking for more of the guy's stuff. >> And I'll make sure that everybody knows about it. > >This could be done with a well maintained web page. Those using it would >agree to abide by some groud rules, ie. if you have a wanted posting and >someone finds and acquires the system for you then you must buy it from >them. One way to keep the postings fresh is to have them expire after a >week or some reasonably determined time period. That will ensure that >listings do not go stale. The wantee would then be required to re-post >his/her want regularly. > >Hmmm, I think I'll create just such a service at the VCF web page. This >would be nice for advertising. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Jan 15 13:49:14 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend References: <01bd215d$dd8a5eb0$0100007f@magnum> <3.0.1.16.19980115100851.205f84d6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <34BE683A.2618@digiweb.com> Joe wrote: > > At 07:16 PM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote: > >On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Francois Auradon wrote: > > > >> Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody > going > >> to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. > >> That way we can get machines that were not too popular in an area. > >> Thanks for the help. > > > >The problem with this is determining how much one wants to pay for a > >particular system. You have to make sure in advance you know everyone's > >limit. Some people may not know what a reasonable price is, and may > >over-pay or put an unreasonable low limit on something they might want. > > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > > Another problem is knowing if they still want the item. If you tell me > that you want an X-computer and I buy one for you 2 months later I don't > want to hear that you've changed your mind or that you've already found > one. > > If anyone isn't going to take the stuff that they said they wanted then > don't post a message saying that you want it. If you post a "wanted" > message then you're obligated to take it when someone gets it for you. > > Joe Perhaps a web site might be more useful, listing what people want and how much they are willing to pay. An entry on the page should oblige that person to accept that item at no more than the stated price. Of course as in any real time multiprocessing system deadlocks and other nasties are bound to happen. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Jan 15 14:00:38 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US References: <01bd21dc$5b64b410$5b68420c@magnum> Message-ID: <34BE6AE6.6B4B@digiweb.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > > > Why don't you just leave your phone number with them and ask them to > >call you when that stuff comes in. Tell them that you'll take it instead of > >them filling up their trash with it. I'll bet they'll do it. > > > > Joe > > The problem is that I don't think they would be willing to make a $10 phone > call in order to sell a $20 computer. > Plus the trip to go get the machines would add an extra $600 to the price of > the machine. > I live in Minnesnowta:) > Otherwise it might be possible (even though some of them told me that > instead I should call regularly and maybe I would get lucky) for somebody > living in France. I asked my brother in law to check once in a while (but > then again this is NOT HIS hobby). I live in France ;-) but it IS my hobby TOO so how do we split the spoils? -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 13:19:57 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd21ea$91130a90$5b68420c@magnum> I believe something got lost in the discussion, I was talking about French machines in France! I don't really have a problem finding some computers in the Twin cyties but waht I was looking for during my stay in the Hexagone was machines like the Oric1, Oric Atmos, Sinclair Spectrum, Thompson MO5, TO7, TO8 etc... And I was just saying that they are near impossible to find. I think my inLaw would be willing to help but he also has his own interests and looking for conputers around is definately not one of them. He may let me know if he stumbles on one but I can't blame him for not making it a priority. I guess I was expecting to find systems at every corners and was fairly disapointed not to be able to find one store (junkyard, used computer store, thrift shop) that had at least a few. > Oh I guess you live out in the sticks somewhere. I WISH I had that problem! > > Can you have them call your brother in law and have him pick them up and >save them for you. Or he can take the massages and hold them till you come >to town IF the trift is willing to willing to leave them sitting around >until you come to town. > > Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 18:00:08 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <01bd21ea$91130a90$5b68420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115180008.492f2c16@intellistar.net> Francois, It IS tough to find the old machines. It takes time to learn which places have them and which ones don't. I've been here in Oralndo for 15 years and I'm just now learning where some of these places are. Most trift stores don't bother with them, we have lots of trift stores here in town but only two of them really have any of the computers. The others may have an occasional computer but the older it is, the more likely they are to just throw it out and not even put it on the shelf. My advice is the get a phone book and call around, it'll save you a lot of wasted time. Also go find some ham radio operators and ask them were you can find old computers. They've been a great source of leads for me. In fact, I usually go to all the area hamfests with one of them. It works out real well since we have similar interests but our interests are different enough that we don't compete with each other. Joe At 01:19 PM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >I believe something got lost in the discussion, I was talking about French >machines in France! >I don't really have a problem finding some computers in the Twin cyties but >waht I was looking for during my stay in the Hexagone was machines like the >Oric1, Oric Atmos, Sinclair Spectrum, Thompson MO5, TO7, TO8 etc... And I >was just saying that they are near impossible to find. >I think my inLaw would be willing to help but he also has his own interests >and looking for conputers around is definately not one of them. He may let >me know if he stumbles on one but I can't blame him for not making it a >priority. >I guess I was expecting to find systems at every corners and was fairly >disapointed not to be able to find one store (junkyard, used computer store, >thrift shop) that had at least a few. > >> Oh I guess you live out in the sticks somewhere. I WISH I had that >problem! >> >> Can you have them call your brother in law and have him pick them up and >>save them for you. Or he can take the massages and hold them till you come >>to town IF the trift is willing to willing to leave them sitting around >>until you come to town. >> >> Joe >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Francois Auradon. >Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 15 18:32:36 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in old Macs, Wyse or Leading Edge PCs? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980115183236.3b6f7af0@intellistar.net> Hi, Went on another scrounging trip today. I found a bunch of old PCs, mostly Wyse and Leading Edge systems. Most of the appear to be 286s or 386s. They're going to be scrapped VERY soon, possibly tomorrow. Is anyone interested in them? I can get them cheap but I have to buy the entire pallet load. I will if there's enough interest in them, otherwise they're history. Oh and there's some Macs in there too. I saw a yellow and a white MacPlus 1 Meg. I think there may be others. I don't know anything about Macs so I'm not much help there. Joe From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Thu Jan 15 17:08:25 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrad 6400 DD Message-ID: <199801152342.PAA12985@mx4.u.washington.edu> Anyone want one? A local charity that I service has one, and would probably get rid of it. manney@nwohio.com From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 15 20:08:55 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980115132500.3a5712aa@intellistar.net> References: <01bd21dd$c90eeed0$5b68420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115200855.0092bda0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Joe head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Sam, > Sounds like a good idea. Go for it! > Joe >At 09:41 AM 1/15/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Hmmm, I think I'll create just such a service at the VCF web page. This >>would be nice for advertising. Hey, Sam! Wanna avoid re-creating the wheel? Does your server allow you to run Perl scripts? I wrote just such a program (you can check it out at: http://www.value.net/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~thedock/c100sale.pl that's a Model 100/102/200 for sale listing I wrote for a friend) with the expiration built-in (but he's got it set to 90 days -- I just change a variable and we have 7-10 days or whatever!) If you like it, lemme know and I'll change it for you, and forward it along! HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 15 16:59:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <01bd215c$9618afb0$0100007f@magnum> from "Francois Auradon" at Jan 14, 98 08:23:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 904 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980115/55e7f6b7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 15 17:03:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Etymologies... In-Reply-To: <199801150343.TAA31641@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 14, 98 09:24:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 684 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980115/d624c96b/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 15 20:12:50 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980115180847.471f131e@ricochet.net> At 01:59 AM 1/14/98 +0000, you wrote: >And, hey, all portable *ARE* bulky anyway even my Luddite is very Not all portables are bulky -- m100, portfolio, Geneva, Starlet, etc. all come to mind. >thick and heavy. Even the T1000 early one is clusmy too. But nowhere like the 5100. >My opinion is that IBM 5100 is the winner for most heaviest and >unprotected portable. Even modern smallest desktops with built-in I dunno about most unprotected, but I used to have a Centronics 101 portable printer that was tough for even *me* to lift! And the Sony 17" portable display unit my atari club has could probably give the 5100 a run for its money weightwise. >I wouldn't have any handles on anyway. Reasonably good idea this way >so users are forced to hold it carefully and stuff their portables >into padded bags/cases. Handles invites accidents and some swing >around too easily, bang into other objects that could crack/break >screens and hard drives like that, handles breaks, *CRASH!* Or you could make it well enough that that wouldn't matter... 8^) Besides, you put a handle on an IBM 5100, turn around quick, and you could *kill* someone! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 15 20:12:57 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980115180854.3c97f1e4@ricochet.net> At 05:37 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >>If you're talking commercial laptop, I believe it was the Radio Shack Model >>100. It was one of only two commercial laptops ever certified for Space >That's where it gets a little sticky. GRiD Systems started out only making >their laptops for the government, so it wasn't exactly commercial back I think the intended meaning was "production/general purpose" (so as to eliminate computers created specifically and solely for the shuttle.) >GRiD or the other as it's brains. I do know that the Compass 1100 does >predate the m100 by a few years though. And of course, I'm on the train to work and my Haddock book is at home... What year was the compass? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 15 20:13:07 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:18 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980115180905.471f2294@ricochet.net> At 02:50 PM 1/14/98 GMT, you wrote: >> And Bob's your uncle.? What does that mean? I thought Roger was our >>uncle? Aw well, never mind. > >Oops! Sorry. I forgot most of you don't speak English ;-) > >"Bob's your uncle" is an expression indicating the completion of a >simple task. Or something. I always thought it meant something like "and all is right in the world." Of course, Bob really is my uncle... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 15 20:13:28 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980115180925.471f470a@ricochet.net> At 08:56 AM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >story of the program. I'm just a natural born archivist (ie. pack-rat) >which is why I never could get myself to delete old copies of source. I >guess I really have a high opinion of myself because I don't think I have >ever deleted any of my own work. Hmmm... I save old versions because most of the time the new version doesn't work. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 15 20:13:37 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Power Supply Info Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980115180937.3c97f1e4@ricochet.net> At 02:45 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >Gridpad 1910 power supply: Whups! Sorry folks. Netscape died as I was sending John some GRiD info for his web page, so I went to use Eudora, and missent it. But while I'm at it, if you are recording info about your classics, especially those that use wall-warts, do take note of the info for posterity's sake, as many show up sans original PS. (Especially voltage and connector polarity!) Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 20:09:40 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Etymologies... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115210933.006b6384@netpath.net> At 11:03 PM 1/15/98 +0000, you wrote: >There is no such thing as a DB15 (or a DB9 for that matter). The 'D' >means a D-sub connector (named after the shape?) and the 'B' is the shell >size. For reference, the common sizes are : They may not exist, but there are plenty of monitor and video card manual writers who keep this mythological etymological animal alive. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 20:26:09 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Power Supply Info Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115211554.006a6ff8@netpath.net> At 08:13 PM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >But while I'm at it, if you are recording info about your classics, >especially those that use wall-warts, do take note of the info for >posterity's sake, as many show up sans original PS. (Especially voltage and >connector polarity!) Thanks! Dang, I knew I was forgetting something on that GRiDSPeC page. Connector polarity. Well, probably alot more I'm missing too from someone else's standpoint, but hey, I ain't getting paid for this project! :) Shameless Plug: And for those of you who haven't seen the GRiDSPeC page, it's at: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 20:26:11 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115212059.006a7cfc@netpath.net> At 08:12 PM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >I think the intended meaning was "production/general purpose" (so as to >eliminate computers created specifically and solely for the shuttle.) The GRiDs were made in production runs, but under govt. contracts. They weren't made specifically for the shuttle or NASA, at least the Compass wasn't. >And of course, I'm on the train to work and my Haddock book is at home... >What year was the compass? Compass 1100 1982 (Says it on the case as mfg. date) GRiDCASE 3 1985 GRiDCASE 1535exp 1989 (At least that's what the BIOS says) I threw the other two in just so I could remind myself to come up with a timeline for the GRiD page. I'd like to find the original pricing on these suckers. Anyone know where to look? -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 20:26:19 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115212558.006a8800@netpath.net> At 08:13 PM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >>"Bob's your uncle" is an expression indicating the completion of a >>simple task. Or something. > >I always thought it meant something like "and all is right in the world." >Of course, Bob really is my uncle... 8^) Uhhh, I'll be a monkey's uncle! :P (The following used to keep that comment on topic) Okay, so I have a C-64c, 1541 floppy, and monitor. Now how exactly would I go about downloading programs from the internet on my PC machine and porting them over to the Commodore? Will I need a special serial cable? I have the 64 boxed up at the moment so can't really tell what I need. While we're talking commodores, what's so special about the C-64c besides the C-128 style case? -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 20:50:52 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Amstrad 6400 DD Message-ID: <01bd2229$8f047740$5b68420c@magnum> Could you provide more info on th model, I am not familiar with it. Is it on of the PeeCee compatible type? -----Original Message----- From: PG Manney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 5:46 PM Subject: Amstrad 6400 DD >Anyone want one? A local charity that I service has one, and would probably >get rid of it. > >manney@nwohio.com > > From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 20:53:19 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd2229$e6ef2e00$5b68420c@magnum> Thank you for the info. Now I just need to bug one of the EE's at work and I'm up and running. >AFAIK, no computer (at least no micro or mini) ever used the mains >_frequency_ for anything more than a real time clock interrupt and >running the fans. > snip... >Ditto monitors. Every monitor I've ever looked inside (or read the >service manual for) has used the mains to produce DC rails only. I've got >a lot of 60Hz video monitors here (UK, 50Hz mains) with no problems. > >-tony ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 15 22:02:17 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980115212558.006a8800@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115220217.009ca3a0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) John Higginbotham head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Okay, so I have a C-64c, 1541 floppy, and monitor. Now how exactly would I >go about downloading programs from the internet on my PC machine and >porting them over to the Commodore? Will I need a special serial cable? I >have the 64 boxed up at the moment so can't really tell what I need. IIRC, the Commie used a (fast to them -- dog slow to me) TTL serial hookup for their drives... and I remember seeing a circuit that you could build using either a Max232 IC or a 1488/1489 combo to change the 0v-5v levels of the drive to the +12v-12v of standard RS-232C... but I doubt I could find it right away... Then you just need to find the program that allows the IBM to read/write Commie progs / files to the drive; which I know is out there somewhere. (No, I don't watch the X files... ;-) I do have somewhere the circuit that allows you to hook up an Atari drive, which used a similar arrangement. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 21:17:21 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd222d$425e4930$5b68420c@magnum> >At 11:48 AM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Tat goes without saying: placing a machine in a want list is also an >>engagement to purchase it. Otherwise the system would not work for too long. >>There should be an update prior to each outing to make sure that the >>machines are still wanted. > > That's not practical for me. I went looking (and found :-) last >Saturday, yesterday (found more) and I will go again today ( I know where >there's a keyboard that I need) and again next Thursday (big NASA auction) >for certain. I look a lot, that's why I find a lot. One of the FEW >advantages of living in a big city. > > Joe I do that too stop at garage sales and couple stores on my way from work. I guess it was mostly meant for major events. For 'casual' shopping we probably can E-talk before making a move (the machine is probably not going to disapear overnight). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 15 20:48:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <3.0.3.32.19980115001656.009d8100@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <34BECA72.4C0BE4D5@cnct.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: Ward Griffiths wrote: > >That's _formal, professional_ programmers with systems that support > >revision control -- how much of the development for eight-bit micros > >was done on systems without such formal structure back in the 70s, > >early 80s? -- I'd wager a gagload. > That was the point I was making myself -- Sure you can pick up Linux > 1.2.13, but can you get a copy of "Merch's Half-Written CoCo3 OS-9 Level2 > (Basic09) Multi-Color, Multi-Window Genealogy Program with Built In Help"??? > > Thankfully, yes, if you give me a week or so to dig it up! > > And there's a lot of software for Tandy CoCos (for example -- I'm sure the > problem may be rather widespread) that just seems like it cannot be found. > Whether it was actually bad code, or expensive code, or whatever, there's a > lot of software packages that I've asked around for for quite some time and > cannot turn a copy up to beat the band. (For purchase, archiving or otherwise) > > It's a shame -- Looking at FHL's (Frank Hogg's Laboratories) old ads there > was a boatload of software like the Flex OS, 3 or 4 different Basics, > COBOL, Pascal, Macro Assemblers / Disassembles, etc. for that OS alone, > that may have gone *Poof* and may never be seen again. > > It would be a shame to lose it like that. Yeah, I know. For a lot of that, even the production binaries are in landfills, let alone the source code belonging to long lost companies. (I've grabbed everything Roy Soltoff has given Tim Mann to post on his site for the Mod 1/3/4, it's on more than one Zip disk at present until I can get it burned into a CD-R at work (that's multiple copies, it doesn't fill a whole Zip disk yet). I keep hoping the "The Source" to LS-DOS is made available, since I was too stupid to buy a hardcopy from Roy years back. And all of my 8" LS-DOS material was wiped out a couple of moves back. As Ben Franklin said, "three removes equal one fire" at least where posessions are concerned. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 15 21:32:27 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd222f$5e417f80$5b68420c@magnum> Well you show me what you have and I'll show you what I can find:) Seriously I would very much like to find an Oric1 and an Atmos, I remember drooling over the Electronique Pratique magazines when I was living in France. There are also a few more that I have not seen around here but it may well be like the amstrads who apparently made to Florida and not to Minnesota (they must pretty smart machines;) I have absolutely no clue as to what shipping from France to the US can cost (the las shipping I did over the ocean was in 1989 when I moved to the US) >I live in France ;-) but it IS my hobby TOO so how do we split the >spoils? > >-- > Hans B. Pufal : > Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : >_-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ > From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 21:17:12 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115221703.006a9e98@netpath.net> At 10:02 PM 1/15/98, you wrote: >Then you just need to find the program that allows the IBM to read/write >Commie progs / files to the drive; which I know is out there somewhere. >(No, I don't watch the X files... ;-) Or maybe there's a program that'll let me read/write commodore disks in a PC 5.25" drive. Anyone? Anyone? >I do have somewhere the circuit that allows you to hook up an Atari drive, >which used a similar arrangement. I never got into building circuits and such. I'm cursed with big, fumbling hands. Some people say I can draw pretty good (http://limbo.netpath.net/art/), I can type, I can mouse, but please, whatever you do, do not put a soldering iron in my hand! If the circuit is the only way to go, I think I'll pass. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 15 21:10:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980115212558.006a8800@netpath.net> Message-ID: >Okay, so I have a C-64c, 1541 floppy, and monitor. Now how exactly would I >go about downloading programs from the internet on my PC machine and >porting them over to the Commodore? Will I need a special serial cable? I >have the 64 boxed up at the moment so can't really tell what I need. You'll need an X1541 cable. Basically you need a spare cable for connecting the drive to the C64. You cut one end off, you then take a DB25 connector and put on that end. Plug the DB25 into the parallel port of your PC, and then you can directly connect your 1541 to the PC. I've got a 1541 just for this purpose, I simply leave it hooked to my server, and boot the server to DOS when I want to transfer files. You'll need a software package that will handle the transfers, I think one is called Star Commander. Doing a DejaNews search on X-1541 and X1541 should dig up all the info you need. That was the cheap, but hard way. Now for the easy, but expensive way. Lay out about $100 and get a Catweasel board either for your PC or better yet your Amiga 2000, 3000, or 4000 (the Amiga version has more capabilities). Hook a 1.2Mb 5.25" floppy to the controller, and use the software included with the board. At least that's how it's supposed to work, I've not gotten one for my Amiga yet, so I've no experience with the boards. I posted some info here a few weeks ago on these boards, they look to be the classic computer collecters dream board. They are constantly adding additional floppy formats that they can read. According to their web page it will even support 8" floppies, if the developers can ever get their hands on any. >While we're talking commodores, what's so special about the C-64c besides >the C-128 style case? Based on the answers I got a week or two ago, apparently nothing. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 21:25:17 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115222510.006a60a8@netpath.net> Does this happen to anyone else? I don't usually frequent the 5 or 6 thrift shops around here, and flea markets and yard sales I don't have time for usually, but sometimes when I'm going somewhere else, I have this "feeling", a sixth sense if you will, that I absolutely have to stop at these places. When I do, I usually find really rare or super deals on old computers, the ones I used to collect anyway, before the GriD bug got ahold of me. I live in a city of 25,000 people, and I believe I'm the only person that owns any sort of GRiD laptop. Any GRiDs I get are usually through deals on the internet. I call this sixth sense my "metal telepathy". (Doh!) At 09:17 PM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >I do that too stop at garage sales and couple stores on my way from work. I >guess it was mostly meant for major events. For 'casual' shopping we >probably can E-talk before making a move (the machine is probably not going >to disapear overnight). -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 15 21:30:15 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: ive had that happen meself. thanks to it, i got two undisk drives and colour composite monitor that way for my //e. in another instance, i found a platinum //e with matching unidisk and colour monitor at a separate place as well as stopping by a place i went once before and got my atari portfolio. david << Does this happen to anyone else? I don't usually frequent the 5 or 6 thrift shops around here, and flea markets and yard sales I don't have time for usually, but sometimes when I'm going somewhere else, I have this "feeling", a sixth sense if you will, that I absolutely have to stop at these places. When I do, I usually find really rare or super deals on old computers, the ones I used to collect anyway, before the GriD bug got ahold of me. I live in a city of 25,000 people, and I believe I'm the only person that owns any sort of GRiD laptop. Any GRiDs I get are usually through deals on the internet. >> From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 15 21:42:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Upcoming PBS special on bit rot References: <3.0.3.32.19980115001656.009d8100@mail.northernway.net> <34BECA72.4C0BE4D5@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34BED71A.2A01D7A5@cnct.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > (I've grabbed everything Roy Soltoff has given Tim Mann to post on > his site for the Mod 1/3/4, it's on more than one Zip disk at present > until I can get it burned into a CD-R at work (that's multiple copies, > it doesn't fill a whole Zip disk yet). I keep hoping the "The Source" > to LS-DOS is made available, since I was too stupid to buy a hardcopy > from Roy years back. And all of my 8" LS-DOS material was wiped out a > couple of moves back. As Ben Franklin said, "three removes equal one > fire" at least where posessions are concerned. And that's what I get for not checking the site for a couple of weeks. The source for LS-DOS is now there. It will be added to my archives this weekend and that probably gives me enough material to at least half-fill a CD-R, between the Mod 1/3/4 stuff, the CoCo stuff, the Orchestra-90 stuff and of course the emulators, all presently on multiple Zip disks. (Might even be room for what CP/M material applies to the old Tandy's -- if there's extra, I'll just record the lot.) -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 21:51:51 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115224147.006b8940@netpath.net> At 07:10 PM 1/15/98 -0800, you wrote: >That was the cheap, but hard way. Now for the easy, but expensive way. >Lay out about $100 and get a Catweasel board either for your PC or better Where's that webpage again? That sounds interesting, even if I don't get one. >>While we're talking commodores, what's so special about the C-64c besides >>the C-128 style case? > >Based on the answers I got a week or two ago, apparently nothing. Ah, progress! Sometimes I wonder what drives computer companies to waste resources like that. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 15 21:51:53 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: metal telepathy/Great White Trader Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980115225146.006adee4@netpath.net> At 10:30 PM 1/15/98 EST, you wrote: > >ive had that happen meself. thanks to it, i got two undisk drives and colour >composite monitor that way for my //e. in another instance, i found a platinum >//e with matching unidisk and colour monitor at a separate place as well as >stopping by a place i went once before and got my atari portfolio. Anyone remember that story about the mouse that wanted some cheese, and he had to go make all these other deals with the other animals, finding the dog a bone, etc, until he finally got the cheese? While flea market hopping one day about two years back, I came across a TRS-80 model 100 in mint condition, included hard plastic carrying case, data recorder, acoustic couplers, and manual. I paid $25 for the whole rig. Kept it until a few months ago, when I saw a message on a newsgroup somewhere. This guy wanted to trade an Atari Portfolio for an M100. I traded him the M100 itself, none of the accessories for it (Since I had an NEC PC8201a too I could use the other stuff with) for the Portfolio, with the serial and parallel modules, manual, 3 memory cards, the works. Then, about a month later, I found another collector that was having a big moving sale. I traded the portfolio for a Zenith 386sx laptop, which I then ended up selling for $176. But I swear if I kept doing the trading loop thing, before too long I would have ended up with a active matrix pentium laptop somewhere down the line, maybe even a car. :) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From william at ans.net Thu Jan 15 21:54:32 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Score/1 Message-ID: The day started out with no suprises. I arrived at the MCI building intending to finish up an installation. Walking down the halls, I peeked in some of the rooms, packed with all manner of telco equipment. It is 10 AM, and I start working. By noon my work is done. I walked down the stairs, looking for the MCI contact I deal with, and am confronted by a rather beat up looking IBM Series/1 minicomputer, left in the hallway. It is fairly stripped out - all of the processor boards have been removed, many cables have been cut, and some of the front panels of the 6 foot rack are gone. It seems that this beast is headed for the recyclers. I have wanted a Series/1 for some time, and I had been eyeing a few at the Chicago site. Unfortunately, I do not have a way to move the thing. That shot down my idea of grabbing it. Anyway, just down the hallway is the room that had quite a large number of Series/1 racks. They were part of some project that is still running in some parts of the country. I looked around and saw that most of the racks have been raped. Then, one of the racks starts rolling towards me. Behind it is a man, pushing it along. I asked about the fate of the boxes, and he replies that they are indeed scrap, and that he is the scrapper. I told him that I collect computers, and that I have wanted a Series/1 for a while. His expression immediately changed to that of pleasant suprise. He replies that he collects chips. We reached common ground quickly, swapping stories about some of the old beasts. Although he is not very old, it seems that we has seen and scrapped just about every type of big iron ever produced. He then motions me over to a few racks off to the side. They had not yet been raped! For 25 dollars each, I could have them, as they were no longer MCI property. Hmmmmm... I made a quick call to my storage locker company, as they rent vans. The quote is quite reasonable, but they are 25 miles away. Time is very short, as I have a plane to catch in the morning. I decided to go for it - for 100 dollars, I could have two big Series/1 machines to play with, shipping included. By 1:30 PM, it is quite clear that I needed to find a local rental companies. A few stops later, I parked my car and drove off in a big van. Now the fun started. It dawned on me that my storage locker may close up after 6 PM, so I switched into hyper mode. I picked out the two best machines, then started to remove the disk drives, two each at 64 meg, and two each at 200 meg. The things are very heavy, but proved to lighten up the racks remarkably. I then decided to take only one whole rack, and all the bits of another rack for spares. By 4:30 PM, the stuff is all loaded in the van. Now I had to race to the storage locker. By 5:45 PM I arrived at the locker. The place was still open, but time is short. By the time everything is unloaded, the place was closing up. It was 6:50 PM. Greatly relieved, I headed back to retrieve my car. By 8 PM I am finally done, still amazed at what had just happened. And all of this without a plan. William Donzelli william@ans.net From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 15 23:09:39 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980115222510.006a60a8@netpath.net> Message-ID: > I don't usually frequent the 5 or 6 thrift shops around here, and flea > markets and yard sales I don't have time for usually, but sometimes when > I'm going somewhere else, I have this "feeling", a sixth sense if you will, > that I absolutely have to stop at these places. When I do, I usually find Well, aside from a sixth sense that tells me when someone is scum (when you get a successful business going scum come spewing out of the wood-work wanting to spend your money on all kinds of goofy schemes) and a sixth sense that tells me when a house is haunted (yeah yeah I know...think what you want...it's true anyway), I also have a sixth sense that tells me where a problem is located in a malfunctioning computer or program or network. I also have this thing where I can walk around our office and "hear" that a machine is malfunctioning. I'll just be wandering around, as I'm wont to do occasionally, and stop and say to someone, "Do you hear that?" and they'll say, "What?" and I'll walk over to some piece of equipment, turn on the monitor and it'll be malfunctioning. That still freaks out my co-workers. The best example...and I swear on a stack of Holy Literature that it's true...is one evening I'm sitting on my couch reading a book and I suddenly got this funny feeling. I got up, walked downstairs to the computer room and logged on to one of my unix boxes at work and noticed things were funny. Looking around I discovered that three of our machines were being hacked and was able to lock everything down long enough to repair the damage and keep the miscreants out. I then went down to work, where a couple of my co-workers were still working, and sat down and immediately...almost effortlessly...found the hidden directory where they were keeping their evil replacements for things like netstat, ps, login, etc etc. It was not in an obvious location but I just kind of found it. That REALLY freaked out my co-workers...to the extent that they briefly accused me to fabricating the whole thing. It soon became apparent, fortunately, that that was impossible when they saw telnets coming in from loser-wannabe.hackers-from-hell.com etc etc. =-) > >I do that too stop at garage sales and couple stores on my way from work. I > >guess it was mostly meant for major events. For 'casual' shopping we > >probably can E-talk before making a move (the machine is probably not going > >to disapear overnight). I mostly pick up my fun machines at hamfests and by just mentioning to people that I collect old computers. I mentioned to a web customer that I collect old computers and he asked, "How old?". "Oh, sixties, seventies, eighties. DEC, S-100, etc." and he put me onto the 8i's in St. Louis that I picked up. Every time I go into a thrift store some skeezy guy is looking at dresses and ladies' underpants. The computers either look like they were used in a cigarette testing lab or are far over-priced for what they are. And there always seems to be some guy who sincerely believes that I am personally to blame for his broken MS-DOS machine and, by way of compensation, I should have to listen to him lecture on the evils of Macintoshes and Unix. (Of course, that's nothing compared to the book sale I went to last year [yes, this is off topic]...I'm standing at a table looking at books and this guy across from me is talking to himself and suddenly looks directly at me and shouts, "Cleveland!" and wanders away. Later, he wanders back repeating over and over, "No WAY they're gettin' me to Ohio...No WAY...do ya hear me?????? NO way! Not OHIO!") I swear it's true. Anyway, sorry about the off-topic post. I now have a complete manual set for RSX-11M and a fairly complete collection of PDP-8 manuals and DEC logic handbooks as well as many others. There, that was on topic. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From msf at redhat.com Thu Jan 15 21:58:01 1998 From: msf at redhat.com (Michael Fulbright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Anyone with an Ohio Scientific machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would love any Ohio Scientific machine with BASIC and cassette that worked. I've been looking for one for a long time. What kinds of things are you looking for? Michael Fulbright msf@redhat.com From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 16 00:13:04 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980115220217.009ca3a0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote: > ;-) John Higginbotham head-scratched, yawned, then typed: > > >Okay, so I have a C-64c, 1541 floppy, and monitor. Now how exactly would I > >go about downloading programs from the internet on my PC machine and > >porting them over to the Commodore? Will I need a special serial cable? I > >have the 64 boxed up at the moment so can't really tell what I need. > > IIRC, the Commie used a (fast to them -- dog slow to me) TTL serial hookup > for their drives... and I remember seeing a circuit that you could build > using either a Max232 IC or a 1488/1489 combo to change the 0v-5v levels of > the drive to the +12v-12v of standard RS-232C... > > but I doubt I could find it right away... Well, take a look at the files on: ftp.funet.fi:/pub/cbm/crossplatform What you really need is the so-called X1541 cable that connects the 1541 drive to the PC Parallel port, and one of several software packages that are on funet. - don > Then you just need to find the program that allows the IBM to read/write > Commie progs / files to the drive; which I know is out there somewhere. > (No, I don't watch the X files... ;-) > > I do have somewhere the circuit that allows you to hook up an Atari drive, > which used a similar arrangement. > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 16 00:12:44 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980115224147.006b8940@netpath.net> Message-ID: >>That was the cheap, but hard way. Now for the easy, but expensive way. >>Lay out about $100 and get a Catweasel board either for your PC or better > >Where's that webpage again? That sounds interesting, even if I don't get one. http://www.rat.de/apd/catweasl.htm As I said, if you can, get the Amiga version. Personally if I didn't already have a couple 2000's and a 3000, I think I'd be tempted to get a 2000 just to use it :^) In a lot of cases the PC version right now can only read the disks. Not surprising when you consider it's apparently an Amiga company developing it. If you want one either http://www.softhut.com or http://www.paxtron.com are probably your best bet (I prefer Software Hut). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 16 02:23:13 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Amstrads (PPC640) in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980116001908.3e0ffd86@ricochet.net> At 06:16 PM 1/14/98 -0600, you wrote: > >>>How much did it go for? Just curious. >> >>$100 >> >>if I were a rich man... > >Funny I paid 100FF for mine (that's about $18) I got mine for $10, but no PS, or case, and a rust stain near the battery case. If you find another one for 100FF, I've got francs... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 16 02:23:16 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Software archeology Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980116001912.3e0fd80e@ricochet.net> At 12:16 AM 1/15/98, you wrote: >lot of software packages that I've asked around for for quite some time and >cannot turn a copy up to beat the band. (For purchase, archiving or otherwise) If anyone ever comes across the terminal emulator for the ST that had HP terminal emulation, *please* let me know... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 16 02:23:24 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980116001941.3e6fc740@ricochet.net> At 09:56 PM 1/14/98 EST, you wrote: >if this happens, count me in. there's plenty of radio rallies coming up in nc >in the spring. > > Actually I was thinking of starting a collector buying ring: Everybody going > to a hamfest or thing like that let the other ones know and take orders. Count me in too... I dunno how many hamfests I'll make it to, but I can look at thrift shops and such. (Of course, I don't have much luck compared to a lot of youse guys!) As for me, I'm into portable stuff... Anything, say $20 or less I'll definitely take it off your hands (or at least send you the $20). More than that, maybe ask first, unless it's really cool... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 16 02:23:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980116001945.3e6f7714@ricochet.net> At 08:07 PM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >>We do not keep them! We throw them out as soon as they come in! There is no >>market for that kind of stuff. Just tell them to call you; you'll guarantee them $5 (or whatever) per computer they were going to through out. You'll get some dogs, but you may get some gems too. There's a thrift shop near my house that has a list of stuff people are looking for; I'm on it for old computers. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 16 02:23:53 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Looking for a 14 pin DIN cable Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980116001948.50071f78@ricochet.net> At 06:03 AM 1/15/98 +0000, you wrote: >Doea anyone have a spare 14 connector DIN cable? I need one for >connecting a disk drive to my Thomson TO-8 computer. I believe the same >cable is used to connect drives to the Atari ST series machines. Check with one of the many Atari dealers out there... Best Electronics (San Jose) has just released a new catalog that is also supposed to be an excellent reference. Do a search on them and you should find it; several other vendors (Like B&C) also sell the best catalog. You could also try Computer Direct (I think) in Canada; they're a big dealer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 16 04:26:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980116052443.006bb6f4@netpath.net> At 02:23 AM 1/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >As for me, I'm into portable stuff... Anything, say $20 or less I'll >definitely take it off your hands (or at least send you the $20). More than >that, maybe ask first, unless it's really cool... Same here, as long as it's portable, AND made by GRiD Systems. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 16 04:39:17 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Stuff for sale Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980116053715.006a4a10@netpath.net> Found these on an online auction: TRS-80 Expansion Interface http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201496013 RADIO SHACK TRS-80 EXPANSION INTERFACE-CATALOG NUMBER 26-1140-1 WITH BUFFERED EI CABLE. CONDITION UNKNOWN. SOLD AS IS. BUYER PAYS UPS SHIPPING, AND PAYS BY MONEY ORDER, OR CHECK. CHECKS CLEAR BEFORE ITEM SHIPPED. LOOKS TO BE O.K. OUTSIDE WITH EXCEPTION OF ONE MISSING RUBBER TIP ON BOTTOM. TRS-80 Mini Disk Drive http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201496017 RADIO SHACK TRS-80 MINI DISK DRIVE-CATALOG NUMBER 26-1160. TAKES 5.25 FLOPPIES. CONDITION UNKNOWN. SOLD AS IS. BUYER PAYS UPS SHIPPING, AND PAYS BY MONEY ORDER, OR CHECK. CHECKS CLEAR BEFORE ITEM SHIPPED. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From LoneWolf at c3net.net Fri Jan 16 06:53:00 1998 From: LoneWolf at c3net.net (Lone Wolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: US Computer Exchange Message-ID: Rob Campbell is a nice guy. He's located in Troy Michigan. Check out their web page at: uscomputerexchange.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 16 08:58:09 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980116085809.00ba2570@pc> John Higginbotham wrote: >Okay, so I have a C-64c, 1541 floppy, and monitor. Now how exactly would I >go about downloading programs from the internet on my PC machine and >porting them over to the Commodore? Will I need a special serial cable? Browse some C-64 web pages, you'll find lots of info about this. There are one or two emerged-standard parallel to DIN cables like "X1541" that you can easily craft (given the right connectors - I got lucky and found the right DIN in the junk box) that connect your PC printer port directly to the 1541. Works like a charm. I've also used a freeware utility on the Amiga that requires a tweak of the drive speed motor on a 5 1/4 drive, and that works OK, too. The 1541 is better, though, but you'll find a lot of bad sectors and out-of-spec disks on the C-64. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 16 10:07:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: HP 35 Red Dot calculator for sale Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980116100739.094fa3f8@intellistar.net> Hey, just in case anyone's interested in HP calculators there is a red dot model of the HP 35 for sale on Auction Web. For the ones of you that don't know what they are, the red dot is the very first batch of HP calculators that were ever produced by HP. They're very rare and you almost never see one for sale. If any of you have one, I'LL BUY IT! The URL is "http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4389154" and no I'm not the seller. Joe From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jan 16 10:33:34 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Recording data to a strand of wire? Message-ID: <9800168849.AA884997373@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > If it didn't rust forever or until a stronger field distrurbed it. Assuming one got a wire recorder working, what is the print-through situation like? I'd have thought not too good... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jan 16 10:39:56 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <9800168849.AA884997733@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > OK I'll get an EE to help me out. Did you ever used that with a monitor? is > the 60 Hz vs 50 Hz a problem? > >>When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >>found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >>these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >>your uncle. As Tony pointed out, 50/60 Hz shouldn't be a problem. HOWEVER, it should be pointed out that the transformer must be capable of carrying the power. I used a 10VA transformer to power the one or two devices that had 240V only. To run monitors and things, you'd need 100VA or so. Transformers do exist for just this sort of purpose, upto about 2kVA, but V. heavy! (Rule of thumb for switchmode power supplies - Look at ower consumption and assume 1VA = 0.6W) Finally, a tranformer designed for 60Hz must be derated to a lower VOLTAGE when used at 50Hz. I hope that hasn't got you all too confused. Philip. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Fri Jan 16 18:16:30 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Amstrad 6400 DD Message-ID: <199801170022.QAA14546@mx4.u.washington.edu> Yes it is a PC compatible -- it's an XT. I suppose the DD referred to Double Disk, but I pulled the second floppy to install the hard drive. It's a peculiar, many-screwed, (phenolic?) plastic case. manney@nwohio.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 16 20:28:42 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Anybody know wha this is? DEC Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980116202842.43a73e26@intellistar.net> Hi, I picked more stuff today and found some DEC hard drives in the pile. Can anyone tell me what size they are and what machines they're for? I *think* they may be out of a Vax, but that's a guess. They're all full height 5 1/4" drives and they weigh a ton. The first one is marked "digital RZ55" and has a sticker that says "1041080-08-9" and it appears to have a SCSI interface. The second one appears to have a ST-506 interface and is a Maxtor drive and is marked "RD54-A" and "30-26245-01" and "RQDX 3". I also picked up a couple of keyboards that I think might be for a DEC. The first one is a large keyboard marked "TS 803". It has 16 Pf keys along the top and a separate numeric keypad. It's gray on top and white on the bottom. The second keyboard is from digital and is a model LK 201. Doe anyone know which machine it's for? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 16 22:01:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: More DEC stuff Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980116220102.4b2fadb6@intellistar.net> Hi, I found some DEC circuit boards. They're marked "ZG91100876" and they appear to be memory boards. Can anyone tell me what they are and what machine they're for? Joe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 16 21:07:55 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Anybody know wha this is? DEC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980116202842.43a73e26@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 16, 98 08:28:42 pm Message-ID: <9801170307.AA03299@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980116/46fd07db/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 16 21:51:18 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980116194719.0baf84aa@mail.sinasohn.com> At 01:17 PM 1/15/98, you wrote: > > >At 11:48 AM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Tat goes without saying: placing a machine in a want list is also an >>engagement to purchase it. Otherwise the system would not work for too long. Things "that go without saying" are usually what screw up the system. Things like that are best said up front. Better to have someone say "well, duh" then to have someone get stiffed. >>There should be an update prior to each outing to make sure that the >>machines are still wanted. > > That's not practical for me. I went looking (and found :-) last >Saturday, yesterday (found more) and I will go again today ( I know where >there's a keyboard that I need) and again next Thursday (big NASA auction) >for certain. I look a lot, that's why I find a lot. One of the FEW >advantages of living in a big city. The best thing to do is to list what you're after with a price of *what you'd be willing to pay for a second machine.* That way, if I say I want an osborne 1 and I'm willing to pay $50, and I go out and find one at the same time someone else finds one for me, I wouldn't mind paying the $50 for a second machine. Of course, you might miss out on that first machine at $75, but better safe than sorry (until you win the lottery, of course.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 16 21:52:39 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980116194840.0baf85e2@mail.sinasohn.com> >>And of course, I'm on the train to work and my Haddock book is at home... >>What year was the compass? > >Compass 1100 1982 (Says it on the case as mfg. date) >GRiDCASE 3 1985 >GRiDCASE 1535exp 1989 (At least that's what the BIOS says) > >I threw the other two in just so I could remind myself to come up with a >timeline for the GRiD page. I'd like to find the original pricing on these >suckers. Anyone know where to look? Haddock says (now that I'm home) the Compass was early 1982, $6000-8000. Doesn't mention the others. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Jan 16 21:50:45 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs Message-ID: <000401bd22fb$4133ee60$54987c0a@office1> I got an Apple ][gs today form a guy in Georgia. It's a ROM 03 model with 1mb of RAM, an RGB monitor and an Apple keyboard. It has no docs, floppy drives, or mouse. Does anyone have a spare mouse, floppy drive, and maybe docs that I can buy? Which drives were available for this unit? I have mostly 5-1/4" disks right now, so I'd like to get that type first, then maybe a 3-1/2". I have a copy of ProDOS floating around but I'd like to get a copy of GS/OS. Can I run this with 1mb of RAM? Thanks! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From MicroAge97 at aol.com Fri Jan 16 22:12:01 1998 From: MicroAge97 at aol.com (MicroAge97) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: apple IIgs cards for lc Message-ID: <7ebc7489.34c02f93@aol.com> hello i saw two apple IIgs card for the apple lc for sale at a local computer store and was wondering if anyone wanted them? they appeared to new in box. dave From jrbrady at mindspring.com Fri Jan 16 21:11:45 1998 From: jrbrady at mindspring.com (Jason Brady) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980116191145.007b5100@pop.mindspring.com> Having an IBM mainframe would be great provided you have a direct connect to the nearest power station! Here's several messages from knowledgeable folks that posted to alt.folklore.computers awhile back: [Message 1 of 4 in thread 148 of 176] alt.folklore.computers Re: IBM Mainframes: Power & Coolant Requirements From: Alan Greenberg Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 20:33:11 EDT (Page 1 of 2) In article Jason Brady writes: > >Does anyone have any insights as to the power requirements for the >beasts? How about the liquid coolant (I think one of the many system >components was the PDU "power/coolant distribution unit"?) We just replaced a two processor 3090 with a new CMOS-based system. The new systems was cost-justified partly on the energy savings. The processor complex ate up about 55 KVA, mostly in 415 Hz power (which is what the motor-generator created from 60 Hz - just as with airborne equipment, the higher frequency makes for smaller DC power supplies). Onto that, you need to add the cost of removing the heat - perhaps another 25-50% for a total power consumption of about 60-70 KVA. A complex with more processors would of course take more power. I should point out that this was a 9 year old machine.... We replaced it with a new box that draw less than 1,500 watts! Alan Greenberg Re: IBM Mainframes: Power & Coolant Requirements From: Joe Morris Date: 24 Aug 1995 14:42:30 GMT (Page 1 of 2) Jason Brady writes: >I never got involved with the facilities support side of the place, but >remember one day when an emergency shutdown was attributed to a "motor- >generator failure." A lot of the big systems used MG sets, both as frequency translators (some circuits were designed for 400 Hz supply) and as an isolation mechanism to prevent garbage on the power feed from getting into the computer. The rotating mass of the MG provided excellent ride-through for short outages of the commercial power. At a PPOE in the mid-1970s we had an IBM 370/148 (with MG), an IBM 360/65 (no MG) and a DEC DECsystem KL10 (no MG). We also had a Dranitz power line monitor tied to the power mains; based on its output we could show how well the systems handled dropouts in the power. The DECsystem 10 never survived more than about 3 or 4 cycles outage; the 360/65 died at about 16 cycles, and the 148 could tolerate almost a full second. (We got lots of opportunities to collect data points ... thanks, TVA.) Of course, the peripherals on the 148 would usually die on an outage of one second, but the CPU itself would survive without taking a power check. (The shop didn't have the funds and/or will to buy a UPS, even though I managed to include a room for one in the building when it was designed.) The problem with the DEC box didn't surprise me at all. There were a lot of nice features in the design, but the impression I got was that DEC designed the power circuits on a day after the engineers had spent the previous night in a bar. At one time I found that the box was dumping almost 8A of current down the *ground* line, yet the DEC CE insisted that the box was installed and working correctly. It also was dumping over 20A down the neutral line on a 3-phase circuit; not the safety issue of ground current, but still indicative of poor design. Joe Morris / MITRE [Message 3 of 4 in thread 148 of 176] alt.folklore.computers Re: IBM Mainframes: Power & Coolant Requirements From: Joe Morris Date: 24 Aug 1995 15:04:21 GMT (Page 1 of 2) Responding to: <41e5j3$id@news.iadfw.net> mcw@gateway.airmail.net (Mike Wommack) writes: >I used to work as an Electrician at an IBM site a few years back. I know >the 3380(?) DASD strings took 220v at 100A. The plugs were huge. I also >recall what looked like 3/4" water lines used to cool the main processor. >(Which was either a 3090 or ES9000.) If it was a US site, the 3380 box probably was being fed with 208VAC, 3-phase power at no more than 60A; the box is spec'ed at requiring no more than 8.2 KVA. In the case of the 3380 the power connector is an R&S 7328 plug, which is rated at only 60A. (You could get the box wired for other voltages, so a 220 VAC feed is possible but if that was the voltage the current draw would have been even less than at 208.) The size of the connectors in the power lines is often mandated by NEC (National Electric Code) and/or local code requirements, which for underfloor installation often require watertight connections (and thus increase the size of the connector). Joe Morris / MITRE From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jan 16 22:52:48 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <000401bd22fb$4133ee60$54987c0a@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980116225248.006baa30@pop3.concentric.net> you can download the gs software from apple's web site for free - John At 10:50 PM 1/16/98 -0500, you wrote: > I got an Apple ][gs today form a guy in Georgia. It's a ROM 03 model >with 1mb of RAM, an RGB monitor and an Apple keyboard. It has no docs, >floppy drives, or mouse. > > Does anyone have a spare mouse, floppy drive, and maybe docs that I can >buy? Which drives were available for this unit? I have mostly 5-1/4" disks >right now, so I'd like to get that type first, then maybe a 3-1/2". > > I have a copy of ProDOS floating around but I'd like to get a copy of >GS/OS. Can I run this with 1mb of RAM? > > Thanks! > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > (remove nospam_ to use) > ClubWin! Charter Member (6) > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >============================================ > > > > > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jan 16 22:55:25 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: apple IIgs cards for lc In-Reply-To: <7ebc7489.34c02f93@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980116225525.006bdfa4@pop3.concentric.net> I will take both if no one wants them e-mail me the total cost. Thanks John At 11:12 PM 1/16/98 EST, you wrote: >hello > >i saw two apple IIgs card for the apple lc for sale at a local computer store >and was wondering if anyone wanted them? they appeared to new in box. > >dave > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 17 00:05:14 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? In-Reply-To: <01bd215c$43f1cd70$0100007f@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980117000514.457f5636@intellistar.net> Francois, Well I got the Osborne. It turns out that the dealer had to move and had to get rid of a bunch of stuff so he was a lot more reasonable on his prices. I haven't had time to do anything with it yet. I probably won't for a few days. BTW Do you know what kind on drives are in there? They look like they might be some of the old Shugart SA 400s. If so I can probably use them to restore my old Altair. It has a disk controller for the SA 400s but the drives are long gone. Joe From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 16 23:38:24 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Northstar DOS help In-Reply-To: <199801170022.QAA14546@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: This is probably a pretty 'slim chance' request! But here goes, anyway. Does anyone know of a program similar in function to the CP/M utility DU (Disk Utility) that runs under the old Northstar DOS? And the hard part - where to get a copy? Alternatively, does anyone have N*DOS source code salted away somewhere? That would simplify the process of building such a program. Any hints or help will be greatly appreciated! - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 16 23:59:31 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980117000514.457f5636@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > Francois, > > Well I got the Osborne. It turns out that the dealer had to move and had > to get rid of a bunch of stuff so he was a lot more reasonable on his > prices. I haven't had time to do anything with it yet. I probably won't > for a few days. BTW Do you know what kind on drives are in there? They > look like they might be some of the old Shugart SA 400s. If so I can > probably use them to restore my old Altair. It has a disk controller for > the SA 400s but the drives are long gone. Joe, I have forgotten at the moment who the manufacturer was, but be advised that the Osborne drives carried power via the ribbon cable. They cannot be directly replaced with a normal floppy - or vice versa. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 17 00:47:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:19 2005 Subject: Anybody know wha this is? DEC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980116202842.43a73e26@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > I also picked up a couple of keyboards that I think might be for a DEC. > The first one is a large keyboard marked "TS 803". It has 16 Pf keys along > the top and a separate numeric keypad. It's gray on top and white on the This is a keyboard for a TeleVideo CP/M machine (model TS803). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 17 00:56:17 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: those wacky IBM heads Message-ID: I saw this label on an IBM monitor in a thrift shop the other day and I thought some of you guys might get a kick out of it. It read: USE OF THIS DEVICE IS RESTRICTED TO IBM MANAGEMENT APPROVED PURPOSES ONLY and they even had a policy number for this mandate: Z229-0444-00 Beauracracy at it's finest. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From adam at merlin.net.au Fri Jan 16 07:40:00 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Dick Smith System 80 Message-ID: <199801171239.XAA02036@arthur.merlin.net.au> Hi! I think someone on this list is a System 80 expert, and I am hoping I can find them. :) I just picked up a System 80 with expansion box and disk drives, but I'm having some trouble. When I power it up I either get gibberish on the screen (the usual stuff you get before the ready signal) that doesn't go away, or, when I switch the box off,I just jump to BASIC. This happens with or without a disk in the drive. I tried another System 80, and that one didn't seem to notice the expansion box at all - it always went into BASIC, whether or not I had the box switched on. None of the manuals seemed to have anything useful to say, but I suspect that either I am being really stupid and failing to do something basic, or something is broken somewhere. Any ideas? Thanks heaps, Adam. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 17 08:05:47 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DEC Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980117011009.00e4ec80@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980117080547.3a770d68@intellistar.net> Bruce, Thanks for the info. Here's more. At 01:10 AM 1/17/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, Joe. Let's see if I can help you ID your goodies... > >>They're all full height 5 1/4" drives and they weigh a ton. The first one >>is marked "digital RZ55" and has a sticker that says "1041080-08-9" and it >>appears to have a SCSI interface. > > Correct. This is a 330 MB drive. The RZ56 was a 700 or so, and the RZ57 >was a 1 gigger. They're all SCSI, generally found on the VAXStation or >DECStation line of systems. If you absolutely have to, they should be >usable on PCs with a low-level format. Doesn't sound very useful on a PC. I have two of each drive. If anyone has need for them for an old DEC, let me know. You can swap me something for them. Allison gets first shot since SHE has allready mentioned that SHE can use them. One of the Rd-54s has a paper tag that says "MVE 11A VMS 5.4.2 ACSIM". Does that sound useful to anyone? Of course, it may not still be one thre, but it probably is. > >>The second one appears to have a ST-506 interface and is a Maxtor drive >and is marked >"RD54-A" and "30-26245-01" and "RQDX 3". > > This is a 170 meg MFM drive, intended for use in the MicroPDP or MicroVAX >lines, or any other DEC system using an RQDX3 controller. It is the same as >a Maxtor XT2190. > > The LK201 is the standard DEC keyboard for just about everything from >their VT220 terminals to the MicroVAX, VAXStation, and DECStation line. > > The numbers you're reading off for the boards don't make any sense. DEC >numbers are typically a single letter, usually M, followed by four digits. >Look on the ejector handles and the card bracket. If the board was not made >by DEC, it may not have this marking. I can't find any number that starts with M. One card is marked " L P W R digital GS-2 34888-4909" across the top edge. The second card is marked " L P W R digital GS-2 03789-6028" across the top edge. But both cards look the same. The other number is on a paper label. They have a LOT of ICs on them marked "TC511000AJ-10". And there is a VERY large IC near the center of the board. There is also a red and yellow LED on the top edge. Joe > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) >http://www.wizards.net/technoid >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 17 08:56:03 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <01bd2358$08235770$c168420c@magnum> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 9:49 PM Subject: Re: What I did this weekend >At 01:17 PM 1/15/98, you wrote: >> >> >>At 11:48 AM 1/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>Tat goes without saying: placing a machine in a want list is also an >>>engagement to purchase it. Otherwise the system would not work for too long. > >Things "that go without saying" are usually what screw up the system. >Things like that are best said up front. Better to have someone say "well, >duh" then to have someone get stiffed. > I meant that it goes without saying in the scope of this discussion. Otherwise yes we would need well planned rules. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 17 08:59:15 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Anybody want an Osborne? Message-ID: <01bd2358$7a47ec30$c168420c@magnum> Nope I have no idea of the type of drives that are installed in there. If you salvage it I would be interested in some parts (one of the keyboard latches on mine is broken and I would like to replace it) Let me know. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 11:08 PM Subject: Re: Anybody want an Osborne? >Francois, > > Well I got the Osborne. It turns out that the dealer had to move and had >to get rid of a bunch of stuff so he was a lot more reasonable on his >prices. I haven't had time to do anything with it yet. I probably won't >for a few days. BTW Do you know what kind on drives are in there? They >look like they might be some of the old Shugart SA 400s. If so I can >probably use them to restore my old Altair. It has a disk controller for >the SA 400s but the drives are long gone. > > Joe > From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 17 09:02:12 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd2358$e3c589b0$c168420c@magnum> Well now you've done it! I actually am confused. What do you mean by "must be derated"? Can I use a big step up Xformer to run a monitor and computer without risking to blow both up? If so in what conditions? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 10:44 AM Subject: Re[4]: Amstrads in the US >> OK I'll get an EE to help me out. Did you ever used that with a monitor? is >> the 60 Hz vs 50 Hz a problem? >> >>>When I went to the US recently, I built my own 110/220V converter. I >>>found a small (10VA) transformer that had dual 120V primaries and wired >>>these as an autotransformer. Boxed it up in small wooden box and Bob's >>>your uncle. > >As Tony pointed out, 50/60 Hz shouldn't be a problem. > >HOWEVER, it should be pointed out that the transformer must be capable >of carrying the power. I used a 10VA transformer to power the one or >two devices that had 240V only. To run monitors and things, you'd need >100VA or so. Transformers do exist for just this sort of purpose, upto >about 2kVA, but V. heavy! > >(Rule of thumb for switchmode power supplies - Look at ower consumption >and assume 1VA = 0.6W) > >Finally, a tranformer designed for 60Hz must be derated to a lower >VOLTAGE when used at 50Hz. > >I hope that hasn't got you all too confused. > >Philip. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 16 21:26:04 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980116222357.006a393c@netpath.net> At 09:52 PM 1/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >Haddock says (now that I'm home) the Compass was early 1982, $6000-8000. >Doesn't mention the others. Forgive me, my ignorance, O Wise One, but what is this Haddock? -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 17 10:48:13 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DEC Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980117080547.3a770d68@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 17, 98 08:05:47 am Message-ID: <9801171648.AA01616@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980117/22735f1c/attachment.ksh From pb14 at leicester.ac.uk Sat Jan 17 09:55:38 1998 From: pb14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs Message-ID: <518CF57C23@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 16 Jan 98 at 22:50, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I got an Apple ][gs today form a guy in Georgia. It's a ROM 03 model > with 1mb of RAM, an RGB monitor and an Apple keyboard. It has no docs, > floppy drives, or mouse. > > Does anyone have a spare mouse, floppy drive, and maybe docs that I can > buy? Which drives were available for this unit? I have mostly 5-1/4" disks > right now, so I'd like to get that type first, then maybe a 3-1/2". The ADB mouse is the same as the ones used on all Macs since the SE and Mac II so you should have no problems finding one. A stock IIGS will work with 3.5" 800K drives or 5.25" 140K drives (the Unidisk 5.25). You can use older Disk II drives using a cable adapter but it may not be worth the effort. Not all external 3.5" drives from Apple work with the IIGS and are Mac only; the one to look for has an eject button, platinum ribbed case and a covered D19 socket for daisy-chaining a second floppy drive. For more information, consult the FAQs which are posted on the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroup (beware of flame wars!) or on the web at http://www.visi.com/~nathan/a2/index.html. > I have a copy of ProDOS floating around but I'd like to get a copy of > GS/OS. Can I run this with 1mb of RAM? Version 6.0.1 of GS/OS is posted on Apple's FTP site. This version will not do anything useful in 1Mb so look around for a memory expansion card. A couple of companies now supply bare boards that will take cheap 30 pin 1Mb SIMMs. Happy Apple II Computing, Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 10:36:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: <01bd2358$e3c589b0$c168420c@magnum> from "Francois Auradon" at Jan 17, 98 09:02:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980117/4e06c8dd/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jan 17 11:00:44 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Somone check my logic here... (Tim? Care to prove me wrong again?) Message-ID: <13324965340.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Okay, here I go. I have a PDP-11/83. It boots a very limited version of RSX-11M. (Sysgen is gone, no multi users, etc.) That's boring. I also have a RSTS/E distrib tape. 9-track tape. I don't have a Q-bus magtape controller. But, I do have an MT: emulating controller and drive attached to the PDP-11/34A. It works. I have read and written to the tape. Reading is fine, writing is iffy due to a braindamaged bootdisk (Not the new RT-11 set -an old one with MT.SYS on it) that Caterpillar made. The important part comes here. I have a thing called a DW-11B (I think). Anyway, it's a Unibus to Q-bus converter. One end goes in the Unibus box, and the other goes in the Q-bus box. Putting the Q-bus end in the 83, and the Unibus end in the 34, I'd be able to talk to the MT: controller, right? (I'd have to remove the 34A CPU, so it doesn't screw with the bus, right?) Does this sound OK, or am I missing something? ------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jan 17 11:09:14 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs Message-ID: <01bd236a$a3be38a0$b363bcc1@hotze> Well, I've got a comment and a question. 1. Yes, the apple software is avaible for download, but I forget where. You need to copy it in a special way for it to work on disks. You might be able to have a serial link, etc. do it, unless you've got a Mac, which makses it SO easy. 2. Does anyone know how to get the XGS Win32 emulator working? Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 8:00 AM Subject: Re: Got an Apple IIgs >you can download the gs software from apple's web site for free - John >At 10:50 PM 1/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >> I got an Apple ][gs today form a guy in Georgia. It's a ROM 03 model >>with 1mb of RAM, an RGB monitor and an Apple keyboard. It has no docs, >>floppy drives, or mouse. >> >> Does anyone have a spare mouse, floppy drive, and maybe docs that I can >>buy? Which drives were available for this unit? I have mostly 5-1/4" disks >>right now, so I'd like to get that type first, then maybe a 3-1/2". >> >> I have a copy of ProDOS floating around but I'd like to get a copy of >>GS/OS. Can I run this with 1mb of RAM? >> >> Thanks! >> >>Rich Cini/WUGNET >> (remove nospam_ to use) >> ClubWin! Charter Member (6) >> MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >>============================================ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 17 11:38:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <01bd236a$a3be38a0$b363bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: >Well, I've got a comment and a question. >1. Yes, the apple software is avaible for download, but I forget where. You >need to copy it in a special way for it to work on disks. You might be able >to have a serial link, etc. do it, unless you've got a Mac, which makses it >SO easy. It sounds like no one can remember where it can be found, I know I can't :^( There is a Macintosh utility that is required to write the disks, called "Disk Copy". Very handy util if you have a Mac. I ran into one problem when I created my set of disks, I wasn't able to write them using my PowerMac 8500/180. I ended up creating them using either my SE/30 or Powerbook 520c, I don't remember which. Basically any cheap 68k Mac with a 1.44Mb floppy can do this. >2. Does anyone know how to get the XGS Win32 emulator working? Sounds obscene. You probably need the ROMs for the IIgs. No, I don't know where or how you can get them. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 17 11:54:42 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US Message-ID: <01bd2370$fd4a5ba0$c168420c@magnum> Thank but since it is an internal PSU I would rather keep it in it's original state. I'll give the step up Xformer a try. >Some PSUs can be easily modified to work off 110V anyway. I can give >typical modifications if you're interested. > >> If so in what conditions? > >[...] > >> Francois Auradon. > >-tony > From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jan 17 12:02:11 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs Message-ID: <01bd2372$08f59cc0$LocalHost@hotze> -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 8:38 PM Subject: Re: Got an Apple IIgs >>Well, I've got a comment and a question. >>1. Yes, the apple software is avaible for download, but I forget where. You >>need to copy it in a special way for it to work on disks. You might be able >>to have a serial link, etc. do it, unless you've got a Mac, which makses it >>SO easy. > >It sounds like no one can remember where it can be found, I know I can't >:^( I've got the OS here, downloaded on my computer, so whoever wants it, just ask, and I'll e-mail it as an attachment, or, I could like post it on my web site, or something. There is a Macintosh utility that is required to write the disks, >called "Disk Copy". Very handy util if you have a Mac. I ran into one >problem when I created my set of disks, I wasn't able to write them using >my PowerMac 8500/180. I ended up creating them using either my SE/30 or >Powerbook 520c, I don't remember which. Basically any cheap 68k Mac with a >1.44Mb floppy can do this. > >>2. Does anyone know how to get the XGS Win32 emulator working? > >Sounds obscene. You probably need the ROMs for the IIgs. No, I don't know >where or how you can get them. Got 'em. But, I still can't get it working. I'll try it on my 200 MHz "beast". (Well, compared to my former 486/66 28MB RAM 2.1GB HDD, it's REALLY NICE.) BTW, Zane, sorry for not replying to that Linux e-mail, I've been really busy. I'll respond soon. Tim D. Hotze From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jan 17 13:35:34 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DECMates Message-ID: <19980117193534.27337.qmail@hotmail.com> A while ago, I mentioned that I had a DECMate III, the one without the hard drive. It has two DECWrite manuals, a disk set for the same, and miscellaneous incompatible junk (like Windows 1.0 for the Rainbow) Could anyone tell me what OS I can use on this, where I can get it, and how to install it. The DEC is not at my house, and any mistake will last me at least a week until I can go back to it. Also, a short essay on the OS wouldn't hurt. A supplementary question: how do I get PPP on Minix? Yet another question: what are the power requirements of an IBM System/34? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jan 17 13:44:31 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DECMates In-Reply-To: <19980117193534.27337.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <13324995155.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have an S/34, it's wired for 204 volts. The requirement is stamped on the inside left panel of the front box (Under the floppy drive. Open the left side of the case (NOT the side with the CE panel) look down at the floor. There should be a sticker there. ) BTW, that S/34 needs a home. Anyone interested? I don't have room for it... ------- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Jan 17 12:26:39 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers References: <199801160802.AAA00795@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34C0F7DF.1D67@goldrush.com> >Okay, so I have a C-64c, 1541 floppy, and monitor. Now how exactly would I >go about downloading programs from the internet on my PC machine and >porting them over to the Commodore? Will I need a special serial cable? I >have the 64 boxed up at the moment so can't really tell what I need. Let's assume you do not have an IBM clone or access to one... First you would download the file from the FTP site. Second while on the (I assume more powerful) internet connecting machine you uncompress the file if it is compressed (usually ZIPped I've seen). Third, Transfer it to the 64. Now if it is a D64 file you will need to save it to a drive that has a larger capacity then a 1541, such as a 1571, 1581, 256k+ REU w/ramdisk running or a CMD Hard Drive. The easiest transfer would be via modem to modem or a simple null-modem cable (plans are on the net), there are other options including making your IBM, Amiga or whatever act as a slave drive for your 64 and just doing a file copy... (special cable like x1541 needed) Finaly (if nesessary) convert the file, it it is .D64 there are a few d64 to 1541 utilities out there for both the 64 and 128. T64 is a different story, it will need to go to tape, and even though I know it can be done I am unsure whether or not a utility exists yet for the 64. Now you should be able to load and run the program (note some of the programs may have problems due to being either written for NTSC or PAL video modes and your computer being the other... :/ Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 14:06:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Somone check my logic here... (Tim? Care to prove me wrong again?) In-Reply-To: <13324965340.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jan 17, 98 09:00:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 856 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980117/8a552378/attachment.ksh From kroma at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 17 15:07:48 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs Message-ID: <00ac01bd238b$f8bcf000$64f8430a@kroma-i> >>>2. Does anyone know how to get the XGS Win32 emulator working? >> >>Sounds obscene. You probably need the ROMs for the IIgs. No, I don't know >>where or how you can get them. >Got 'em. But, I still can't get it working. I'll try it on my 200 MHz "beast". (Well, compared to my former 486/66 28MB RAM 2.1GB HDD, it's REALLY NICE.) > BTW, Zane, sorry for not replying to that Linux e-mail, I've been really busy. I'll respond soon. > Tim D. Hotze You still don't have it working? What problems are you having? If you want, I'll email you a complete working version. The file should be under .5 mb. -- Kirk From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jan 17 15:39:18 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Somone check my logic here... (Tim? Care to prove me wrong again?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13325016050.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Okay, so the 34A has to do the work. Can you use a 64KB machine just to install RSTS/E v10? ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 17 18:53:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DEC Stuff In-Reply-To: <9801171648.AA01616@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.1.16.19980117080547.3a770d68@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980117185318.6ad722be@intellistar.net> Tim, I'm afraid I screwed up. I finally found some other numbers on the board. I don't know why I missed them before. I think this number is the right one. It says "L2007" and "50-18290-02 A1". I counted the memory ICs on the board. There's 144 of them and they look like 1 Meg chips! The board is roughly 10 1/2 x 8 1/2" in size and has stamped metal pull tabs with no markings. I scanned one board and posted a picture of it at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdinj/dec.jpg" If you want to see what it looks like. Joe At 08:48 AM 1/17/98 -0800, you wrote: >> > The numbers you're reading off for the boards don't make any sense. DEC >> >numbers are typically a single letter, usually M, followed by four digits. >> >Look on the ejector handles and the card bracket. If the board was not made >> >by DEC, it may not have this marking. >> >> I can't find any number that starts with M. One card is marked " L P W >> R digital GS-2 34888-4909" across the top edge. The second card is >> marked " L P W R digital GS-2 03789-6028" across the top edge. But >> both cards look the same. The other number is on a paper label. They have >> a LOT of ICs on them marked "TC511000AJ-10". And there is a VERY large IC >> near the center of the board. There is also a red and yellow LED on the >> top edge. > >OK, those markings do make sense. But you're reading them off the >PC board, not off the handles, right? The numbers we're more interested >in would be on the "pull" handles on the edge of the board. If >a Q-bus or Unibus board, the handles will either be: > >1. Maroon plastic, with a stamped M-number on one of the handles. >(Unless the handle broke off!) > >2. A metal stiffener with ribs, with the M-number stamped onto one >of the ribs. > >What's the physical size of the board? I think Bruce and I have been >assuming that's a Unibus or Q-bus card. But it could be a special- >purpose memory board for, say, a Vaxstation 3100. > >Tim. > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 17 18:41:41 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: those wacky IBM heads Message-ID: <6e60d2e6.34c14fc7@aol.com> Heh, i bought a surplus monitor from work after they upgraded to g50 monitors and pc330 systems. i got an 8515 with the same sticker on it! i was thinking about removing it, but i think i might keep it now! i think it was really a documented effort to make sure people werent doing non work environment things on their workstations in accordance with business conduct guidelines. (no games, no www.xxx.com, etc) In a message dated 98-01-17 01:57:20 EST, you write: << I saw this label on an IBM monitor in a thrift shop the other day and I thought some of you guys might get a kick out of it. It read: USE OF THIS DEVICE IS RESTRICTED TO IBM MANAGEMENT APPROVED PURPOSES ONLY and they even had a policy number for this mandate: Z229-0444-00 Beauracracy at it's finest. >> From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sat Jan 17 19:51:29 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801180151.CAA29166@mbox.queen.it> At 03:58 11/01/98, you wrote: Someone At 01:44 PM 1/11/98 -0500, wrote: >>> >First programable calc >>> >>> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to >>> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel >>> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit >>> shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to >>> Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The >Microprocessor: >>> A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 Then William Donzell added: >>Wang's first (or quite near their first) product was an all electronic >>calculator, introduced in the late 1960s. They are big, but could be >>lugged around. Then Joe: > HP's first calculator, the 9100a, was introduced in 1967 or 68. It had >no ICs, used core memories, and used logic gates made of diodes and >resistors. It did have transistors but they were mainly used as amplifiers >for the core memory. I guess it still qualifies as "solid state".) It was >fully proggramable and used RPN. I have a 9100B with a 1969 date code. > > I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from >about 1966. Let see if I' m able to go more back: I translate from the URL page of the Pisa University Scientific Instruments Preservation Dept. < http://www.difi.unipi.it/museo/calcolat/miniepc/miniepc.html > Olivetti Programma 101 Olivetti Programma 101 Programma 101 comes introduced in 1965 during the BEMA elecronic show,in New York.It represents the first "desktop calculator" ever constructed in the world. 40.000 exemplary were constructed at the price of 3.200 $ The machine offered the possibility to carry out arithmetical operations in direct way, or of being programmed for the calculation of complex functions. The programs could be stored in magnetic stripes. It was entirely planned and realized in the Olivetti research laboratories of Pregnana, from a group of researchers guided from the Ing. Piergiorgio Perotto, the design was from the Arch. Mario Bellini. Attacment:picture of the machine "olip101.jpg" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OLIP101.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 77799 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980118/ca6d7868/OLIP101.jpe -------------- next part -------------- ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From dwalterm at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 17 20:07:12 1998 From: dwalterm at ix.netcom.com (Don Walterman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: 12 year old scanner needs software In-Reply-To: <199801140655.BAA04089@mail.cgocable.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980117210712.0079e100@popd.ix.netcom.com> I'm looking for some software for the original HP ScanJet. Since the scanner is 12 years old, I thought someone in this group might be able to help. I need one of the following: Caere Omnipage 2.1 ZSoft Photofinish and I hate to even type this, but Windows 2.0... or any other scanning software that supports the 9190A ScanJet Thanks, Don From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jan 17 20:20:22 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: 12 year old scanner needs software References: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> <3.0.5.32.19980117210712.0079e100@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <34C166E6.55D2DB03@halcyon.com> Skipped content of type multipart/mixed-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 2551 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980117/ab920e42/smime.bin From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jan 17 20:31:44 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Got an Apple IIgs Message-ID: <01bd23b9$3827db60$LocalHost@hotze> >You still don't have it working? What problems are you having? If you want, >I'll email you a complete working version. The file should be under .5 mb. Sounds good. The instructions are a little vague, and when I can't get anything to recognise anything else. Just e-mail it to photze@batelco.com.bh ; to aviod anyone else recieving .5MB that they don't need/want. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From dwalterm at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 17 20:50:55 1998 From: dwalterm at ix.netcom.com (Don Walterman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: 12 year old scanner needs software In-Reply-To: <34C166E6.55D2DB03@halcyon.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980114005210.00950640@mail.northernway.net> <01bd20a1$106e9cf0$896a420c@magnum> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980117215055.007a42d0@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 06:20 PM 1/17/98 -0800, you wrote: >Don, > >I don't know about that Windows 2.0 requirement, but if you go to >http://hpcc887.external.hp.com:9000/awssnew/index.html?Product_Type=Scanners > >and chose "HP ScanJet scanners" for the family and "HP ScanJet scanner >(PC/ISA)" >for the Name, you'll get pointers to all the documentation and software >HP has >available for this scanner. I don't see any mention of Windows 2.0 >there. > >Dave > Dave, Thanks for the tip... HP has removed the files from that site for the original ScanJet. Luckily I have them. I would like to find the 3rd pary software written to support this scanner. I can use it now. But have to stay with Dos 3.3 to get it to work. Supposedly The old Caere software works with W95.... Don From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 17 23:14:33 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Software needed for Lisa In-Reply-To: <30FDCCD8.2A97@mail.swva.net> Message-ID: I need to get boot and other software for an Apple Lisa with an external profile hard disk and a built-in 3.5 inch drive. Can anyone help me out? Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From bmpete at swbell.net Sat Jan 17 22:03:45 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801180151.CAA29166@mbox.queen.it> References: <199801180151.CAA29166@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <34c17e6f.1043629@mail.swbell.net> >Attacment:picture of the machine "olip101.jpg" PLEASE! No more attachments, especially of that size. It took me dozens of tries to finally get it. (It blocked all my other emails.) _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jan 17 00:13:34 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Power Problem (slightly offtopic?) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980117011251.006b52b4@netpath.net> I know this is off-topic, but I think someone might be able to help me with this here. If you want, reply privately to higginbo@netpath. net. I haven't got a clue on this one: I was putting together this system the other day at work, got everything setup, turned it on, and it was fine. But when I hit reset or power down, I can't get it to come back up at all. The hard drives would init, the cd-rom drives would power up, but nothing would come up on screen, no memory check, etc. I could then reset a few times and it would eventually come up. The system is getting power, and the motherboard and case/PS are brand new. So I'm throwing this out to you guys: Is it the power supply not providing enough juice for all the drives? It's a 250w PS, and everything works once it's on. Is it the motherboard? (TX Pro chipset, el cheapo, but have had no probs with them in the past.) Not enough power getting to the power supply? I'm at a loss on this one. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From MicroAge97 at aol.com Sat Jan 17 22:18:17 1998 From: MicroAge97 at aol.com (MicroAge97) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Software needed for Lisa Message-ID: hello, do a search on the web and you can find all the sw you need. you can download the disk image. dave From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 17 22:38:04 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DEC Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980117185318.6ad722be@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 17, 98 06:53:18 pm Message-ID: <9801180438.AA04072@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 966 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980117/cad28c0c/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 17 23:00:50 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Power Problem (slightly offtopic?) References: <3.0.32.19980117011251.006b52b4@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34C18C82.37E06324@rain.org> John Higginbotham wrote: > I was putting together this system the other day at work, got everything > setup, turned it on, and it was fine. But when I hit reset or power down, > I > can't get it to come back up at all. The hard drives would init, the > cd-rom > drives would power up, but nothing would come up on screen, no memory > check, etc. I could then reset a few times and it would eventually come > up. One of the problems with the older switching power supplies used on the IBM and clones was the "power good" line (2nd from the end furthest from the red wires.) If it didn't come up, the motherboard would not fire up and sit there waiting for that line to tell it that the power was okay. Other wierdnesses occurred when the line went true before the power supply was truely up to spec. On one unit, I used to have to hold in the reset button while turning on the computer in order to get it to fire up properly. From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun Jan 18 00:30:22 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Tandy M100 Message-ID: <34C1A17E.DDC@digiweb.com> Yesterday I picked up a Tandy M100, complete with the cutest battery powered 3.5" disk drive connecting the the RS232 port of the M100, video/disk expansion box and video screen. included in the package was MS Multiplan on ROM and several other cassette programs. Also lots of user documentation. That's the good news, on the down side, couldn't get the price down below $100 the (marked price was almost $150!) :-( - it was in a commercial second-hand store and they have to make a living too. Anyways, it all seems to operate properly, but I am missing the 5-1/4" system disk for the video/disk expansion box. Anyone know of how I can get a copy Regarding the disk drive, ae the specs on how to drive it availabel anywhere. I would serve very nicely for transferring information between disparate systems. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun Jan 18 00:47:20 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Olivetti M21 info wanted Message-ID: <34C1A578.6142@digiweb.com> I have recovered an Olivetti M21. Its an 8086 based system with floppy disk and 20 Mb hard disk in a case reminiscent of the original Compaq. Anyone have technical info on this beastie? I noticed an extra DA-9 (?) connector on the mother board which is not available when the covers are in place - what's that for?. Also the definition of the two DIP switch blocks on the mother-board which do not seem to follow the IBM spec. And thirdly how to get into setup, or a copy of the setup disk. I have tentativly decided to dedicate this system to an attempt to port the Z80 UN*X kernel that Allison mentioned a couple of weeks ago. Got it all fired up with DOS 3.1 and Turbo C 1.5 at the moment, I will be adding a vintage copy of BRIEF and away I go..... As an aside, in looking through my store of 5-1/4" disks, I see I have IBM versions of DOS 1.0, 1.10, 2.00, 3.10, and 3.30, gosh they go back a ways. Also found some MS disks with old versions of Windows and a GWBasic adaptation kit. Regards, -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Jan 18 01:58:16 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Tandy M100 In-Reply-To: <34C1A17E.DDC@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980118015816.00999b30@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Hans B Pufal head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >Yesterday I picked up a Tandy M100, complete with the cutest battery >powered 3.5" disk drive connecting the the RS232 port of the M100, >video/disk expansion box and video screen. included in the package was >MS Multiplan on ROM and several other cassette programs. Also lots of >user documentation. > >That's the good news, on the down side, couldn't get the price down >below $100 the (marked price was almost $150!) :-( - it was in a >commercial second-hand store and they have to make a living too. > >Anyways, it all seems to operate properly, but I am missing the 5-1/4" >system disk for the video/disk expansion box. Anyone know of how I can >get a copy Yup. (Oh, you actually wanted me to tell you where??? ;-) >Regarding the disk drive, ae the specs on how to drive it availabel >anywhere. I would serve very nicely for transferring information between >disparate systems. On the DVI - it has an 80x24 screen output to either a composite monochrome monitor or television (well, the tele's in the US only do 40x24 -- which the DVI can do as well) and one or two 40 track SSDD 5.25" floppy drives capable of storing 180K of info (each). 18 sectors per track, 256 bytes per sector, the directory track is track 20. (I have better info than this, but it's not readily available.) On your TPDD, there were two models, the TPDD1 and TPDD2. both were SSSD FM encoded 135tpi, but the TPDD1 was 40 tracks and could store 100K and the TPDD2 was 80 tracks and could store 200K per disk. Need boot disks? Ask this guy: Rick Hanson at Club 100 - website is at: http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html he has replacement boot disks for the TPDD1/2, and I believe for the DVI as well. He also has a boatload of software that you can download from the web and use on your Tandy 100/102/200. Rick's one helluva nice guy, too! Wanna know how to get the software on your Model 100? Here's how: go to Andy Diller's site... there's a link on my [lame] computer page: http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/geezers.shtml and download a small program called PDD2 - this allows you to hook up your TPDD2 to your IBM compatible box, and transfer programs, data & basic programs to and from your TPDD2. The proggie is DOS based, but it's easy to use, and there's instructions right on Andy's web site. Oh, and time for the shameless plug: I run a Model 100 listserver... more information can be reached here: http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/signupform.html Just use the web form to sign up! Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 16 23:17:54 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980115105608.006939e4@mail.wincom.net> References: Message-ID: <199801181027.FAA06123@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 98 at 10:56, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 05:46 PM 1/14/98 EST, you wrote: > >Greetings, > > > >I am new to the group , I posted a message a couple of days ago , I was not > >sure if it got out . Has anyone ever heard of a kx-33b 4-bit microcomputer or > >any 4-bit microcomputer trainer type units . > > > >thanks, > >Frank. > > > This may not be what you have in mind, but the Heathkit ET 3400 was a > trainer that used a 6800 processor, came with 256 bytes, (expandable to 512 > bytes) had a 1K rom monitor program and had a hexadecimal keyboard and a > six digit display. > > Cheers > Charlie Fox > Charley, if your interested and get into TO occasionally you might try the George Brown electronics faculty. They had a s-load of them and might have a few left in storage bins. Also old Osbornes but they're more likely to be long-gone. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 16 23:17:55 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980115180847.471f131e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801181027.FAA06132@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 98 at 20:12, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 01:59 AM 1/14/98 +0000, you wrote: > >And, hey, all portable *ARE* bulky anyway even my Luddite is very > > Not all portables are bulky -- m100, portfolio, Geneva, Starlet, etc. all > come to mind. > > >thick and heavy. Even the T1000 early one is clusmy too. > > But nowhere like the 5100. > > >My opinion is that IBM 5100 is the winner for most heaviest and > >unprotected portable. Even modern smallest desktops with built-in > > I dunno about most unprotected, but I used to have a Centronics 101 portable > printer that was tough for even *me* to lift! And the Sony 17" portable > display unit my atari club has could probably give the 5100 a run for its > money weightwise. > > >I wouldn't have any handles on anyway. Reasonably good idea this way > >so users are forced to hold it carefully and stuff their portables > >into padded bags/cases. Handles invites accidents and some swing > >around too easily, bang into other objects that could crack/break > >screens and hard drives like that, handles breaks, *CRASH!* > > Or you could make it well enough that that wouldn't matter... 8^) > > Besides, you put a handle on an IBM 5100, turn around quick, and you could > *kill* someone! 8^) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > I've got a Kaypro "portable" that I lift occasionally to keep fit :^)) ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 16 23:17:55 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Amstrads in the US In-Reply-To: References: <01bd215c$9618afb0$0100007f@magnum> from "Francois Auradon" at Jan 14, 98 08:23:37 pm Message-ID: <199801181027.FAA06128@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 98 at 22:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > OK I'll get an EE to help me out. Did you ever used that with a monitor? is > > the 60 Hz vs 50 Hz a problem? > > AFAIK, no computer (at least no micro or mini) ever used the mains > _frequency_ for anything more than a real time clock interrupt and > running the fans. > > Ditto monitors. Every monitor I've ever looked inside (or read the > service manual for) has used the mains to produce DC rails only. I've got > a lot of 60Hz video monitors here (UK, 50Hz mains) with no problems. > > TV vertical rates are close to the mains frequency. This was for a couple > of reasons - to prevent the image 'beating' with room lights and to > prevent any residual mains hum causing very annoying flicker if the TV's > smoothing wasn't perfect. > > Some disk drives (large hard disks, 8" floppies, etc) did have > synchronous motors. There's typically a different pulley and belt needed > when you change frequency. > > -tony > One of the problems was the frequency. I have some old Atari programs that allowed you to change between 50mhz <>60 mhz to get rid of the screen flicker. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 16 23:17:54 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: <40ddbe40.34be44ea@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801181027.FAA06136@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 98 at 12:18, ZGE wrote: > Thanks for the response , the Heathkit ET 3400 is a good trainer . The kx-33b > had only data switches and I am guessing , possibly only 16 nibbles of ram . > Not much you could do with it but I thought it looked interesting . I once saw > an add for it in the December 1979 issue of Popular Electronics page 117. I > also ran across an add for the NRI computer I had mentioned earlier PE. 3\77 > Pg. 37 from the add it looks to be called a model 832 .If anyone has the > chance to go to any computer shows\auctions lately and has seen these type of > computers I would appreciate hearing from you . > > Frank > I used the ET3400 when I took my digital electronics course in 82. It was an excellent trainer. Let you to explore the innards of micros that no real micro would allow. I still have the Heathkit digital course and workbooks. Thank you for jogging my memory. Time to get back to basics and see what I've learned since then. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 18 12:07:23 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Software needed for Lisa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > do a search on the web and you can find all the sw you need. you can download > the disk image. I'm aware of that. But I didn't think I could get bootdisks for the machine that way. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sun Jan 18 11:09:34 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Anybody know wha this is? DEC Message-ID: <01ISIOB2F34I9QUSHH@cc.usu.edu> > They're all full height 5 1/4" drives and they weigh a ton. The first one > is marked "digital RZ55" and has a sticker that says "1041080-08-9" and it > appears to have a SCSI interface. a 300-something meg SCSI drive > The second one appears to have a ST-506 > interface and is a Maxtor drive and is marked "RD54-A" and "30-26245-01" > and "RQDX 3". a 150 meg MFM drive. > I also picked up a couple of keyboards that I think might be for a DEC. > The first one is a large keyboard marked "TS 803". This is from a Televideo 803. It's a CP/M machine. > The second keyboard is from digital and is a model LK 201. Doe > anyone know which machine it's for? Just about anything from Rainbows, DECmates, and Pros up to the DEC 3000 series Alphas (newer Alphas use PC-style keyboards). Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sun Jan 18 11:18:02 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DEC Stuff Message-ID: <01ISIONT0HSO9QUSHH@cc.usu.edu> > The L2007 is a memory board for the Vaxstation 3510-3520-3540 series. > It's a "M-bus" board. From the fact that you say it has 144 1 Meg chips, > I will hazard a guess that you have the L2007-B variation, which is > 16 Mbytes with ECC. (There's also a L2007-A which is only 8 Mbytes). But there is no VAXstation 3510. The processors came two on a board. > P.S. I'm waiting for someone to say "But there is no Vaxstation 3540...", > then I have a story to tell! I'd rather hear the one about the 3510. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 18 07:08:16 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Power Problem (slightly offtopic?) In-Reply-To: <34C18C82.37E06324@rain.org> Message-ID: <199801181803.NAA18940@mail.cgocable.net> This Power Good "PG" is pin 1 AND there is another problem that you might not know about is 5v power wire missing on few PSU's next to PG is pin 2. Using 180W PSU like that with most modern boards do squat. Stealing a contact complete with wire from dud PSU and connect that tail end to +5v bus and push that into that pin 2 hole, that will make 80% of modern boards happy. Don't understand that unless that 5v is only juice for the bus! Wire colors is foolish, I hae seen many that did not follow the coloring of the ibm but the pinout exactly the same as intended. Jason D. > John Higginbotham wrote: > > > I was putting together this system the other day at work, got everything > > setup, turned it on, and it was fine. But when I hit reset or power down, > > I > > can't get it to come back up at all. The hard drives would init, the > > cd-rom > > drives would power up, but nothing would come up on screen, no memory > > check, etc. I could then reset a few times and it would eventually come > > up. > > One of the problems with the older switching power supplies used on the IBM > and clones was the "power good" line (2nd from the end furthest from the red > wires.) If it didn't come up, the motherboard would not fire up and sit > there waiting for that line to tell it that the power was okay. Other > wierdnesses occurred when the line went true before the power supply was > truely up to spec. On one unit, I used to have to hold in the reset button > while turning on the computer in order to get it to fire up properly. > > > From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 18 12:04:51 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: Round-up of classic HP stuff Message-ID: Frank McConnell and I (and another associate) made a nice haul of great HP mini's yesterday. The tally: (2) 21MX E computers (one having 1MW of memory, the other with 256MW) (1) HP1000A (1) HP1000 model 600A (hard drive, 3.5" floppy) (1) Tape Reader Reroller (the 8th of only a few ever made) (2) 2647F terminals (these are actually computers running Basic with built-in tape and external 5.25" disk drives but are used as terminals to the 21MX) (2) Mag-tape drives (Frank will provide the specs and model #s) (1) Big-assed line printer and stand (2) HP racks (Frank, what did I mess up on?) Plus some software, a bunch of little spare parts, cables, connectors, and a FULL set of manuals, including service manuals and engineering manuals with schematics and all that for everything. The guy was more interested in getting rid of it and having it go to a good home than getting money for it. We paid him $200. Of course Frank now has an invaluable contact for discussing his HP passion (the guy we bought the stuff from is a 26 year HP veteran). I think when it was all done Frank basically had an accident in his pants as he could not contain his excitement over his good fortune. On an unrelated haul, I picked up a bunch of nice IBM manuals. I got the service manuals for the IBM PC and IBM PCjr. I also got the Options and Adaptors manual which describes, of all things, the various options and adaptors available for the PC, including the expansion chassis which I found last year in a thrift shop. Also got an original DOS 1.10 manual and software, a manual for Windows 1.03 (whee!) and a ton of other neat miscellany. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 18 13:13:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:20 2005 Subject: DECMates Message-ID: <199801181913.AA28990@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980118141901.24af3ce2@intellistar.net> Sam, >(2) 21MX E computers (one having 1MW of memory, the other with 256MW) What's a MW of memory? At 10:04 AM 1/18/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Frank McConnell and I (and another associate) made a nice haul of great HP >mini's yesterday. The tally: > >(2) 21MX E computers (one having 1MW of memory, the other with 256MW) >(1) HP1000A >(1) HP1000 model 600A (hard drive, 3.5" floppy) >(1) Tape Reader Reroller (the 8th of only a few ever made) >(2) 2647F terminals (these are actually computers running Basic with > built-in tape and external 5.25" disk drives but are used as > terminals to the 21MX) >(2) Mag-tape drives (Frank will provide the specs and model #s) >(1) Big-assed line printer and stand >(2) HP racks > >(Frank, what did I mess up on?) > >Plus some software, a bunch of little spare parts, cables, connectors, and >a FULL set of manuals, including service manuals and engineering manuals >with schematics and all that for everything. > >The guy was more interested in getting rid of it and having it go to a >good home than getting money for it. We paid him $200. Of course Frank >now has an invaluable contact for discussing his HP passion (the guy we >bought the stuff from is a 26 year HP veteran). > >I think when it was all done Frank basically had an accident in his pants >as he could not contain his excitement over his good fortune. > >On an unrelated haul, I picked up a bunch of nice IBM manuals. I got the >service manuals for the IBM PC and IBM PCjr. I also got the Options and >Adaptors manual which describes, of all things, the various options and >adaptors available for the PC, including the expansion chassis which I >found last year in a thrift shop. Also got an original DOS 1.10 manual >and software, a manual for Windows 1.03 (whee!) and a ton of other neat >miscellany. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 18 14:15:07 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/73 -- VT220 Message-ID: I picked up a VT220 yesterday, as I was getting tired of using another computer for a terminal. The question is how do I connect it? I'm assuming the DB25 on the back of the VT220 is the comm line (especially if I read the back correctly), I gather the DB9 is for a printer (from what I found in my web searches last night). I took a cable and ran it from the Comm port on the /73 to the Comm port on the VT220, and get nothing. I then added a Null-Modem adapter and got gibberish. Does this need some kind of special cable to work? I don't see any switch settings on the back of terminal or anything. Oh, and the VT220 say's it's OK when I power it on. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jan 18 14:51:14 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/73 -- VT220 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 18, 98 12:15:07 pm Message-ID: <9801182051.AA05037@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1218 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980118/94e20014/attachment.ksh From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 18 16:37:35 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Macintosh Phonetalk Connectors Needed In-Reply-To: <199801181913.AA28990@world.std.com> Message-ID: Ok, it's not exactly on topic...even though many Macs (and especially the ones I use) are older than 10 years...but I figured this would be a good spot to ask. Does anyone have some Macintosh PhoneTalk connectors (with the DIN connection to the Mac and two RJ11 connectors for the network) kicking around that they'd send me in exchange for shipping costs and a couple bucks? I generally use my Macs as terminals for other machines...largely because cut and paste and other features work so well and I'd like to network all my machines in one room. Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 18 15:28:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Round-up of classic HP stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980118141901.24af3ce2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > Sam, > > >(2) 21MX E computers (one having 1MW of memory, the other with 256MW) > > What's a MW of memory? A MegaWord. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sun Jan 18 15:50:40 1998 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Toronto-area comp museums ? Message-ID: <199801182150.QAA24347@golden.net> Did any one ever reply? I believe I'm the chap in the K-W area. We once had Canada's first computer museum, but it has since closed. Have you seen our web site? www.sentex.net/~ccmuseum. Please let me know what I can do to help you. Yours in good faith. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jan 18 15:59:29 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Round-up of classic HP stuff In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:04:51 -0800 (PST) References: Message-ID: <199801182159.NAA11715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > (2) 21MX E computers (one having 1MW of memory, the other with 256MW) For Joe: MW == megawords. These being 2100-family machines a word is 16 bits. > (1) HP1000A Um, no, I think that is an HP1000 F-series. (I have trouble keeping 1000 M/E/F-series straight though, really should copy those pages out of the test equipment catalog and paste them to my monitor or something.) > (1) HP1000 model 600A (hard drive, 3.5" floppy) Cute little thing, in a deskside tower chassis. And a 2621P terminal that I am guessing was last used as its console: it's got the fiber-optic console interface attached. > (1) Tape Reader Reroller (the 8th of only a few ever made) Well, that's what the seller told us. Definitely 1960s stuff though. The idea was that the reader would re-roll your tape into its canister as it read. I gathered that that part didn't work too well. There were also some drafting erasers, um I mean hand-held re-rollers in a box nearby. > (2) 2647F terminals (these are actually computers running Basic with > built-in tape and external 5.25" disk drives but are used as > terminals to the 21MX) Take a close look at the label on the front. They say "HP3000". That's because these 2647Fs were originally meant to be used as consoles for HP3000 series 64/68/70 systems. (Though, in April 1984 when the shop I was at got a brand new 3000/64, the 2647F console with it had a 2647F badge on the front.) It's been a while since I had one of these to play with, but I'm thinking that the BASIC was loaded from diskette. There is a sort of command/script interpreter in the terminal though. > (2) Mag-tape drives (Frank will provide the specs and model #s) I think one of them has a 7970B tag and the other doesn't have a model tag but behaves like a 7970E, meaning nine-track 1600 BPI read/write. It's been modified, though, and I gather it started life as a read-only drive that could read 7-track tapes, and that we may have the parts to convert it back. Some of the parts are definitely there, but I can't judge their condition or completeness 'til we do a decent inventory of the lot and I try to wrap my head around the service manual for that drive. > (1) Big-assed line printer and stand HP 2608A. Needs work, doesn't feed paper right. As line printers go it's kinda dinky. E.g. you can take it off its stand and then two people can carry it without too much trouble, so long as there aren't stairs or doorways or RVs in the way. So if you have Sam's attention and are near a proper line printer please show it to him so he can get properly calibrated. > (2) HP racks No, two 19" HP racks on a pedestal. Apparently from an engine test system of some sort. HP used to embed 2100-family CPUs in all sorts of specialized test equipment and that's what these look like they were, once upon a time. > The guy was more interested in getting rid of it and having it go to a > good home than getting money for it. We paid him $200. Of course Frank > now has an invaluable contact for discussing his HP passion (the guy we > bought the stuff from is a 26 year HP veteran). Yeah, y'all really should have hung around a bit longer before zipping off to unload. > I think when it was all done Frank basically had an accident in his pants > as he could not contain his excitement over his good fortune. No, I was just dazed'n'confused because I really hadn't expected we'd be moving it that day, just looking and dealing to come get it in a couple weeks' time. So today I am playing catch-up, then maybe going off to rearrange /dev/closet02 in the hope of making a hole that some of this stuff can fit in. Catch-up? Um, yeah, I have a bunch of IBM manuals and stuff to sort through and inventory. They go with an IBM RT PC (6150). Got that too. Up to my butt in alligators, I remain, -Frank McConnell From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sun Jan 18 15:59:35 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801182210.OAA03601@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Just acquired a Compaq luggable (don't know the model, but it's an XT) that's pretty hefty. I forgot how much I love mono screens, though. The case reminds me of an airline carry-on cat container...stands on end, with the handle on top. manney From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sun Jan 18 16:07:02 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/73 -- VT220 Message-ID: <199801182210.OAA03609@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Have you set the communications protocols correctly? Baud rate, parity, stop bit(s), word size? That's the usual reason for gibberish. manney@nwohio.com ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: PDP-11/73 -- VT220 > Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 2:45 PM > > I picked up a VT220 yesterday, as I was getting tired of using another > computer for a terminal. The question is how do I connect it? I'm > assuming the DB25 on the back of the VT220 is the comm line (especially if > I read the back correctly), I gather the DB9 is for a printer (from what I > found in my web searches last night). > > I took a cable and ran it from the Comm port on the /73 to the Comm port on > the VT220, and get nothing. I then added a Null-Modem adapter and got > gibberish. Does this need some kind of special cable to work? I don't see > any switch settings on the back of terminal or anything. > > Oh, and the VT220 say's it's OK when I power it on. > > Zane > > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sun Jan 18 15:43:20 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Franklin 1000 Message-ID: <199801182210.OAA08938@mx3.u.washington.edu> Anyone interested in a Franklin 1000? What's a good price? manney@nwohio.com ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: 12 year old scanner needs software > Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 8:20 PM > > I'm looking for some software for the original HP ScanJet. Since the > scanner is > 12 years old, I thought someone in this group might be able to help. > I need one of the following: > > Caere Omnipage 2.1 > ZSoft Photofinish > and I hate to even type this, but Windows 2.0... > or any other scanning software that supports the 9190A ScanJet > > Thanks, > Don > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 18 16:45:20 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Power Problem (slightly offtopic?) References: <199801181803.NAA18940@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <34C28600.7666350A@rain.org> jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > This Power Good "PG" is pin 1 AND there is another problem that you > might not know about is 5v power wire missing on few PSU's next to PG > is pin 2. Using 180W PSU like that with most modern boards do > squat. Oops, got pin1 and 2 mixed up; thanks for pointing that out. According to the IBM AT schematics, pin 2 is tied to +5 VDC on the motherboard. I also have seen a *few* motherboards that won't work unless a lead to pin2 is present. A number of the newer motherboards seem to have the power good circuit on the motherboard and don't depend on the power supply. > Wire colors is foolish, I have seen many that did not follow the > coloring of the ibm but the > pinout exactly the same as intended. I have never seen a power supply for IBM style where there was anything but red for +5 VDC and black for 5VDC Ground. I have seen different colors used on the +/- 12 VDC and power good lines though. My comment for about the last 10 years or so to people asking how to put on the power connectors to the motherboard is to make sure that the black leads are together in the center. Haven't seen an exception yet. From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sun Jan 18 17:24:34 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801182324.AAA12536@mbox.queen.it> Hi, Barry, At 04:03 18/01/98 GMT, you wrote: >>Attacment:picture of the machine "olip101.jpg" > >PLEASE! No more attachments, especially of that size. >It took me dozens of tries to finally get it. (It blocked all my >other emails.) Hmm, sorry but I thought that 77 k attachment file would not make any problem (it took 45 sec. to send it). You could use the "skip big messages" option that most mail program have. Anyway I will refrain from sending attachements to this list in future. About my messag on Re: Firsts/programmable calculators, I received back from classicmp only one part of the whole message wrote (very strange). Here follows a copy without attachement: ------ Someone At 01:44 PM 1/11/98 -0500, wrote: >>> >First programable calc >>> >>> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to >>> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel >>> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit >>> shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to >>> Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The >Microprocessor: >>> A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 Then William Donzell added: >>Wang's first (or quite near their first) product was an all electronic >>calculator, introduced in the late 1960s. They are big, but could be >>lugged around. Then Joe: > HP's first calculator, the 9100a, was introduced in 1967 or 68. It had >no ICs, used core memories, and used logic gates made of diodes and >resistors. It did have transistors but they were mainly used as amplifiers >for the core memory. I guess it still qualifies as "solid state".) It was >fully proggramable and used RPN. I have a 9100B with a 1969 date code. > > I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from >about 1966. Let see if I' m able to go more back: I translate from the URL page of the Pisa University Scientific Instruments Preservation Dept. < http://www.difi.unipi.it/museo/calcolat/miniepc/miniepc.html > Olivetti Programma 101 Olivetti Programma 101 Programma 101 comes introduced in 1965 during the BEMA elecronic show,in New York.It represents the first "desktop calculator" ever constructed in the world. 40.000 exemplary were constructed at the price of 3.200 $ The machine offered the possibility to carry out arithmetical operations in direct way, or of being programmed for the calculation of complex functions. The programs could be stored in magnetic stripes. It was entirely planned and realized in the Olivetti research laboratories of Pregnana, from a group of researchers guided from the Ing. Piergiorgio Perotto, the design was from the Arch. Mario Bellini. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 18 18:52:34 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale In-Reply-To: <199801182324.AAA12536@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: A friend of mine has an original unbuilt Sinclair kit for sale at what looks like an interesting price. If you're interested, contact him directly at squest@cris.com and tell him Anthony Clifton - Wirehead sent you. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From william at ans.net Sun Jan 18 18:19:44 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980116191145.007b5100@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: So, trying to scare me, ehh? > Having an IBM mainframe would be great provided you have a direct > connect to the nearest power station! Here's several messages from > knowledgeable folks that posted to alt.folklore.computers awhile back: OK, running a big mini or a mainframe class machine is not for everyone. However, running a processor plus a single disk and perhaps a tape may not be all that bad. Water cooled machines, however, would be too much to handle. For those that only want to plug things into the wall, turn back now! A typical mainframe machine from the past is going to want 3-phase power. While most people do not have access to it, it can be produced or the equipment modified to run off single phase. 3-phase can be made from a phase shift network, a motor-generator, or a Scott connected transformer fed by a second phase. Most of these solutions are a bit costly, not very efficient, and probably a general pain in the butt. The better solution is to look at the power supplies in the computer. Often the three phase is only split up amongst the supplies, and maybe for some fans (or in the case of some IBM tape drives _fractional_ horsepower motors to move the glass doors up and down - expensive, but clever). A simple way to go would be to rewire the supplies (in a reversable fashion) to work off one phase, and maybe get a small convertor for the fans - no big deal. PDP-10s can be run this way - its been done. Most others probably can as well. If, however, the mains go into a 3 phase transformer, some thinking is required. Many 3-phase transformer _can_ be run on a single phase nicely, but the correct windings must be left open or shorted (if I can dig out a past issue of *Electric Radio* magazine, I can come up with specifics. Some hams need to do this trick to get vintage broadcast transmitters operating from thier shacks.). Some big old IBM systems want to have 400 Hz power. It is used so the power supplies can be made smaller, especially in the filtering circuits. This is probably more of a problem that needing 3-phase (a double whammy if 400 Hz 3-phase power is needed!), because 400 Hz supplies are EXPENSIVE, often taking the shape of big motor-generators. Anyway, how much power do these computers require? Lots, but perhaps not as much as one might think. A fully decked out 3081 CPU only needs about 7 kVA. I am sure something like a smaller S/360 or 370 would be less - my guess is at 4 to 5 kVA. As long as you do not run the thing all day, it will not be that expensive! For example, maybe running a small mainframe, plus a disk and tape, for a night of hacking might cost $10 in electricity. Running something smaller like a big PDP-11 system might cost a couple of bucks - large deal. Compared to some hobbies dealing with older technology (airplanes, cars, trains, boats, etc.) - that is not much. One last point I would like to make is that before you go and try out your newly aquired Big Blue Box, check out the circuits that you will be using. The startup currents for some of the things can be nasty, and a jammed circuit breaker is certainly _not_ a good thing. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 18 19:25:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Round-up of classic HP stuff In-Reply-To: <199801182159.NAA11715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980118192539.271ffb7a@intellistar.net> At 01:59 PM 1/18/98 -0800, Frank wrote: >Sam Ismail wrote: > >> (1) Big-assed line printer and stand > Hey, I've got a big assed HP printer here too. It's a HP 2602 daisy wheel job. Anybody want it? Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 18 18:39:30 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801190039.AA06502@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980118200504.0098e870@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Allison J Parent typed: > > >Generally big is over 49999bytes! Most mailers that is the threshold. >While some PC mailers will tolerate anything many do not and a lot of unix >based mailers don't like it either. Here in the boonies, a lot of folks still have 14.4 or slower modems (4 or 5 people I know do e-mail at 2400 baud here!) and personally, I would say that anything 35K or larger *after encoding* would be too large for this list. If you have the technology to send something that big, you should have the technology to put it on your web page, and just list the URL to it. That's a very acceptable way to share pictures here, then folks who want to see can spark up their Nutscrape or whatever bowzer they prefer. > >not all mailers have that! And even if the mailer did, some folks don't know that the option is available! Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 18 14:11:29 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801190039.AA06502@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801190107.UAA11312@mail.cgocable.net> > > > Generally big is over 49999bytes! Most mailers that is the threshold. > While some PC mailers will tolerate anything many do not and a lot of unix > based mailers don't like it either. > > > not all mailers have that! Correct, Allison. Riccardo, thanks for letting us know for not sending anything too big by email again. > > Allison > To give you some idea, average paper I wrote in ASCII in 4 pages long is about 3K to 4K. Performance of regular modems dribbles along about 1.5k or less for 14.4kps on usual bad day and 28.8 is bit faster and most of time 33.6kps is about max in most places and trying to get 52kps is like once in blue moon. Users who have Tx or cable modem connection can move big things in a flash if time of day is right otherwise we're in same group as modem users. Jason D. From pvhp at forte.com Sun Jan 18 20:05:44 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements Message-ID: <9801190205.AA03633@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements William Donzelli wrote: >OK, running a big mini or a mainframe class machine is not for everyone. >However, running a processor plus a single disk and perhaps a tape may not >be all that bad. Water cooled machines, however, would be too much to >handle. > >For those that only want to plug things into the wall, turn back now! > >A typical mainframe machine from the past is going to want 3-phase power. Well not necessarily. Of late IBM has been putting effort into making S/390 (note: less than 7 years old and not quite a classic) available to small shops: via the P/390 (a 7490 mainframe on a chip hosted by a pentium running OS/2) and the R/390 (also a 7490 with an AIX host - RS/6k or PPC). I must apologize: in a previous message I had referred to the mainframe on a chip as a "3490" which is a tape drive not a CPU model number. To the extent that S/390 derives its heritage from S/370 and S/360 such a box may serve the needs of the mainframe hacker with a small power capacity/budget. IBM's amazing efforts at preservation of backward compatability are a big plus here: to a first approximation S/390 simply adds features to S/370 (the parallel sysplex clustering ability allegedly being quite highly advanced nowadays e.g.). Unfortunately the purchase price won't help the budget minded hacker: a new P/390 runs $50k to $100k and the R/390 a bit more. I've used a P/390 and must say that it is quite a machine: all DASD communication channels are actually handled via a software emulation that runs under the host OS/2 machine, but other than that it seems much like a mainframe. You can run with RAID 0,1,3,5 using PC type drives. The 7490 can run OS/390 (the new name for MVS), VM/ESA, as well as VSE/ESA (the new name for DOS since about 1987). Interestingly enough IBM recently upgraded their P/390 production line to move from 90 MhZ Pentiums to 200 MhZ Pentiums and touted that customers could expect throughput rates to increase a whopping 10% (this gives you an inkling of how much the host OS adds in overhead). According to an IBM technical contact there are shops that are actually running P/390s in a production environment: doing payroll, accounting and whatnot. This despite the fact that the intended market was primarily for software shops porting code to S/390. Perhaps the most unusual thing about S/390 are the OpenEdition environments that run under the various OSes. They give you unix on the mainframe and the OpenEdition environment under OS/390 is now known as "UNIX System Services for OS/390". The irony being that MVS is actually 3-4 years younger than UNIX: UNIX started in 1969, MVS was announced in 1973 and shipped in 1974. At any rate keep an eye out for P/390 on a PC Server 500 (maybe the P90s will wind up on the used market?) and the equivalent R/390 machine - they take only wall plug 110 AC and will let you hack JCL, assembler, and CLISTs to your heart's content - destined to be classics. Peter Prymmer From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 18 20:08:06 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-18 17:11:29 EST, you write: << Just acquired a Compaq luggable (don't know the model, but it's an XT) that's pretty hefty. I forgot how much I love mono screens, though. The case reminds me of an airline carry-on cat container...stands on end, with the handle on top. >> ive got two IBM portable pc's (5155 i think) which are the same thing. also has built in handle and a 5 inch screen. both that i have are upgraded to 640k, and one has one floppy removed and a hard drive in its place. david From joel at usfca.edu Sun Jan 18 20:24:00 1998 From: joel at usfca.edu (Joel Oberstone) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube Message-ID: <34C2B927.53E14329@usfca.edu> If anyone knows where I can buy a NeXT cube at a decent price, please let me know. Joel From starling at umr.edu Sun Jan 18 20:23:28 1998 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube In-Reply-To: <34C2B927.53E14329@usfca.edu> from "Joel Oberstone" at Jan 18, 98 06:24:00 pm Message-ID: <199801190223.UAA16586@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > If anyone knows where I can buy a NeXT cube at a decent price, please > let me know. > I usually see decent prices at www.deepspacetech.com. And there are frequently bargains on comp.sys.next.marketplace. * From william at ans.net Sun Jan 18 20:49:27 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: <9801190205.AA03633@forte.com> Message-ID: > Well not necessarily. Of late IBM has been putting effort into making > S/390 (note: less than 7 years old and not quite a classic) available > to small shops: via the P/390 (a 7490 mainframe on a chip hosted by a pentium > running OS/2) and the R/390 (also a 7490 with an AIX host - RS/6k or PPC). > I must apologize: in a previous message I had referred to the mainframe on > a chip as a "3490" which is a tape drive not a CPU model number. Yes, and in time I will probably want an S/390. It seems to be a trend to make scaled-back machines for office environments. The most suprising is Cray, with their EL and J series machines, that just need 240V. And I lust for either of them as well. > At any rate keep an eye out for P/390 on a PC Server 500 (maybe the P90s will > wind up on the used market?) and the equivalent R/390 machine - they take only > wall plug 110 AC and will let you hack JCL, assembler, and CLISTs to your > heart's content - destined to be classics. Actually, I am interested in the big IBM stuff mostly for the hardware. IBM software, in my opinion, is rather bad - operating systems to software. The magic is all under the sheet metal in the form of fab techniques that are consistantly about 5 years ahead of the rest of the world. The architectures also tend to be fascinating. William Donzelli william@ans.net From strategy at winning.com Sun Jan 18 20:31:01 1998 From: strategy at winning.com (strategy@winning.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Kaypro's Available Message-ID: <34C2BAE5.420B@winning.com> Would any collectors be interested in Kaypros. I have four -- some complete with original advertisement, software, manuals, etc. Time to free them from the storage bin. From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Sun Jan 18 21:03:11 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Uncles/PC-C64c file transfers Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980119140311.007f6210@isd.canberra.edu.au> At 10:26 17/01/98 -0800, Larry Anderson wrote: >>Okay, so I have a C-64c, 1541 floppy, and monitor. Now how exactly would I >>go about downloading programs from the internet on my PC machine and >>porting them over to the Commodore? Will I need a special serial cable? I >>have the 64 boxed up at the moment so can't really tell what I need. [Snip!] > Finaly (if nesessary) convert the file, it it is .D64 there are a few >d64 to 1541 utilities out there for both the 64 and 128. T64 is a >different story, it will need to go to tape, and even though I know it >can be done I am unsure whether or not a utility exists yet for the 64. Actually, you can transfer .T64 files to disk without any problem. .D64 is a disk image format, .T64 is simply a single file. Just transfer it as a PRG file and it should work fine. Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@isd.canberra.edu.au| | Admin/ISD IT User Support Team |Phone: +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| | Information Services Division |Post: University of Canberra, | |University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601. | From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 18 21:11:11 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements References: Message-ID: <34C2C44F.FB82385E@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Some big old IBM systems want to have 400 Hz power. It is used so the > power supplies can be made smaller, especially in the filtering circuits. > This is probably more of a problem that needing 3-phase (a double whammy > if 400 Hz 3-phase power is needed!), because 400 Hz supplies are > EXPENSIVE, often taking the shape of big motor-generators. So go to your nearest airport and steal an APU. 400hz 3-phase is standard aircraft electrics (because motors and such can be made smaller). It's what I dealt with in the USAF -- didn't know it was popular on the ground once away from the maintenance shops around the flightline. (Oh, that APU will burn kerosene very happily -- in fact, if you try gasoline, your neighbors will object loudly when it blows up and burns down the neighborhood. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 18 21:12:17 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980118221155.006b5350@netpath.net> At 08:23 PM 1/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >> If anyone knows where I can buy a NeXT cube at a decent price, please >> let me know. Okay, I know NeXT was the baby of Steve Jobs, but what exactly is it based on? Is it an entirely new animal? If anyone can point me to some info, I'd appreciate it. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 18 16:30:17 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Cleaning out my storage room... In-Reply-To: <199801190223.UAA16586@saucer.cc.umr.edu> References: <34C2B927.53E14329@usfca.edu> from "Joel Oberstone" at Jan 18, 98 06:24:00 pm Message-ID: <199801190325.WAA08429@mail.cgocable.net> I have quite bit of parts that I do not really need. Sell to anyone here who need one inexpensively or trade for some PS/2 stuff. Empty clone lunchbox with LCD VGA display and 8bit ISA LCD adapter. The lunchbox will take any two HH or one FH drive and one 3.5" floppy bay, baby AT motherboard type. It has internal working power supply. The case is all plastic but sturdy. Has room for 4 ISA slots and extra internal ISA slot. Oh it does have own keyboard that uses DIN 5 plug. I paid over 120 Cdn used for it to find out Xwindows and Linux graphics does not work with it, only ordinary text linux, DOS and graphical games, Win 3.x and win95 will work on that display. Appox 10lbs shipping. Motherboards: One square baby AT 286 12mhz with 1mb ram two is SIPP and other half is in 256k x 4 DIPs all 100ns, B/W AMI bios type, it will accept user-defineable hd spec. Can accept 1mb on that one on SIPP slots or you can hack it to take SIMM by replacing that SIPP slots for SIMM sockets. Sorry no manual. One generic but looked well made baby AT 386dx non-cached it takes either 25mhz or 20mhz chip (no cpu) and the speed is selectable by a dual oscillators jumper and does have manual for it. 8 SIMM slots, few latches is broken but minor problem to fix this latches, sorry. One complete 486 VLB/ISA motherboard with manual, bios is color AMI, chpset is ALI type, require external CMOS battery, it's pre LBA type. The cpu socket is ZIF and 5v only. Works from 25mhz - 50mhz range by jumpers. The board will come with 1mb ET4000ax VLB card, the fast text/game card, intel 486SX2 50 (can overclock to 66) and you supply a good heatsink for it. 8 simm (no memory) sockets up to 32MB max and has 256K cache installed and functioning. I have three Pentiums already so this has to go. It does have thin white manual for it. You will add multi-i/o card & memory to it to make it complete. This board ran DOOM and II without crashing to prove reliablity. Hard drive: Priam V185 MFM drive 100% tested by spinrite 3.1; level 6, defect free with it's red LED and has black bezel, cleaned out of dust. Pulled out of old 3COM router box (this box is gone) As IS. Will find more parts to trade or sell later from storage. I prefer doing here becuase I know all of guys here can use older stuff and I'm doubtful that I could get good trade locally, the city is appox pop 120k so it's substandard medium-small city. Thanks for your reponses! PS I will be able to send $7 USD to you for that HD bible, it's good book! Have to do that tomorrow because I have another package to send as well. Jason D. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Jan 18 21:56:01 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Bubble Memory Message-ID: <199801190356.WAA00994@webern.cs.unc.edu> Bubble memories were once available as a kind of disk emulator for SwTPC 6809 machines with the FLEX OS. The package was called "DISKBUB", and was based on a bubble memory by Texas Instruments, IIRC. Didn't sell terribly well; cost something like $1000 for 128K bytes. God, I wish I'd saved those old program listings. Bill. From bmpete at swbell.net Sun Jan 18 23:09:54 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118212220.0069e810@netpath.net> References: <3.0.32.19970118212220.0069e810@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34c2df9f.11655139@mail.swbell.net> At 07:39 PM 1/18/98 -0500, you wrote: > >not all mailers have that! My email prog never saw the message; many times the ISP timed out and closed the connection. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 19 00:03:57 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > So, trying to scare me, ehh? > > > Having an IBM mainframe would be great provided you have a direct > > connect to the nearest power station! Here's several messages from > > knowledgeable folks that posted to alt.folklore.computers awhile back: > > > > OK, running a big mini or a mainframe class machine is not for everyone. > However, running a processor plus a single disk and perhaps a tape may not > be all that bad. Water cooled machines, however, would be too much to > handle. > > For those that only want to plug things into the wall, turn back now! > > A typical mainframe machine from the past is going to want 3-phase power. > While most people do not have access to it, it can be produced or the > equipment modified to run off single phase. 3-phase can be made from a > phase shift network, a motor-generator, or a Scott connected transformer > fed by a second phase. Most of these solutions are a bit costly, not very > efficient, and probably a general pain in the butt. The better solution is > to look at the power supplies in the computer. Often the three phase is > only split up amongst the supplies, and maybe for some fans (or in the > case of some IBM tape drives _fractional_ horsepower motors to move the > glass doors up and down - expensive, but clever). A simple way to go would > be to rewire the supplies (in a reversable fashion) to work off one phase, > and maybe get a small convertor for the fans - no big deal. PDP-10s can be > run this way - its been done. Most others probably can as well. If, > however, the mains go into a 3 phase transformer, some thinking is > required. Many 3-phase transformer _can_ be run on a single phase nicely, > but the correct windings must be left open or shorted (if I can dig out a > past issue of *Electric Radio* magazine, I can come up with specifics. > Some hams need to do this trick to get vintage broadcast transmitters > operating from thier shacks.). One scheme that I have seen used to power a 3-phase motor (on a lathe or such) is to connect a 3-phase motor of comparable rating or higher to the single-phase mains and also connect all three phases to the motor to be powered. The motor connected to mains is powered up - it may require a twist to get it spinning - and when up to a steady speed, the lathe (or whatever) motor may be powered up. I'm sure that there are some inefficiencies, but I have seen it work. - don > Some big old IBM systems want to have 400 Hz power. It is used so the > power supplies can be made smaller, especially in the filtering circuits. > This is probably more of a problem that needing 3-phase (a double whammy > if 400 Hz 3-phase power is needed!), because 400 Hz supplies are > EXPENSIVE, often taking the shape of big motor-generators. > > Anyway, how much power do these computers require? Lots, but perhaps not > as much as one might think. A fully decked out 3081 CPU only needs about 7 > kVA. I am sure something like a smaller S/360 or 370 would be less - my > guess is at 4 to 5 kVA. As long as you do not run the thing all day, it > will not be that expensive! For example, maybe running a small mainframe, > plus a disk and tape, for a night of hacking might cost $10 in > electricity. Running something smaller like a big PDP-11 system might cost > a couple of bucks - large deal. Compared to some hobbies dealing with older > technology (airplanes, cars, trains, boats, etc.) - that is not much. > > One last point I would like to make is that before you go and try out your > newly aquired Big Blue Box, check out the circuits that you will be using. > The startup currents for some of the things can be nasty, and a jammed > circuit breaker is certainly _not_ a good thing. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From william at ans.net Mon Jan 19 00:48:57 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One scheme that I have seen used to power a 3-phase motor (on a lathe or > such) is to connect a 3-phase motor of comparable rating or higher to the > single-phase mains and also connect all three phases to the motor to be > powered. The motor connected to mains is powered up - it may require a > twist to get it spinning - and when up to a steady speed, the lathe (or > whatever) motor may be powered up. I'm sure that there are some > inefficiencies, but I have seen it work. Yes, it works, but is quite inefficient. I would venture to say that using a real motor-generator would be better, if properly maintained. Motor-generators are not as bad as most people think - a good one is fairly efficient, provides isolation and regulation, and can take a lot of electrical abuse. They are just bears to move (done it - not fun). William Donzelli william@ans.net From engine at chac.org Mon Jan 19 02:31:27 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980118221155.006b5350@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980119003127.010459f0@pop.batnet.com> At 22:12 1/18/98 -0500, John wrote: >Okay, I know NeXT was the baby of Steve Jobs, but what exactly is it based >on? Is it an entirely new animal? If anyone can point me to some info, I'd >appreciate it. 68030- or 68040-based, running a variant of MACH UNIX called NeXTSTEP. At first caused a furor by being equipped only with MO drives, not hard disks -- they backtracked on that pretty fast. Ethernet. Most of them were grayscale but a few really flossy ones had 24-bit color. Your choice of 300x300 Canon flatbed color ink-jet printer or 400x400 b&w PostScript laser. Everything in achingly beautiful matching black magnalium cases by frogdesign. In their time (like the Lisa) computers that too few people understood; today, secure in recognition as some of the most elegant desktop boxes ever built, and machines that you can still have a TON of fun with. If the world were a just place, the NeXT (and the Lisa too) would be a computer NEVER in danger of being scrapped.... __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 19 03:03:24 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980119002825.3f9f35f2@ricochet.net> At 10:26 PM 1/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Haddock says (now that I'm home) the Compass was early 1982, $6000-8000. > >Forgive me, my ignorance, O Wise One, but what is this Haddock? I think that's the first time anyone's ever called me wise (except, of course, myself, who knew it all along.) 8^) Haddock, Dr. Thomas F., author of "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators", ISBN # 0-89689-098-8. It's an excellent first go at a refernce book on collectible microcomputers; incomplete, and inconistant, but a good start. (I can't speak for the calculator part.) Prices are not realistic (some too high, others too low) and missing a lot of machines, but good for what it's got. I think I got my copy from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/) but other bookstores (like powell's (http://www.powells.com/) might have it as well.) His PhD, btw, is in physics, and he's also the author of a book on Jag E-type restoration. Go figure. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 19 03:03:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980119003759.291f9f44@ricochet.net> Spotted a few things that someone might be interested in, and that I wasn't sure what they were... First, and oddest, was a pizza box labelled Nissho Electronics. Looked like a workstation, one 3.5". Almost got it, but for $26... Anyone know what it might have been? Commodore 64 for $5, 64c in the box for $15 -- Anyone interested? I know what a 1541 disk drive is, but what about a Vic-1541? Is it worth $10? I did pick up a C modem/300 (model 1660) for $.99 and an Osborne 1 keyboard (only!) for (I know, too much, but it's an Osborne!) $5. Oh, they also had a few IBM PS/2 style monitors with a single RCA jack input on the back; they were mounted on little stands, kinda like (I think) the Apple IIc monitors. Possibly Composite? Possibly from some POS terminal/cash register? A little steep at $26 though. (Looked new though!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From cgregory at lrbcg.com Mon Jan 19 07:24:15 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:21 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) Message-ID: <003d01bd24dd$8d5b86c0$cb27a2ce@cliffgre> The Vic-1541 was the disk drive with the colors of the Vic-20. These were marketed at about the time of the introduction of the C64 and could be used with either the Vic-20 or the C64. Internally the Vic-1541 and the original beige Commodore 1541 (the one with the pull down door latch) are essentially the same. The later versions of the C-1541 (flip down latch) were changed internally with different drive moters, etc. Functionally they are all the same. Is it worth $10.00 ? The Vic-1541's are somewhat more uncommon that the C-1541's, and are in a little more demand among Commodore collectors for that reason. I would put their value at between $10 and $20. In other words, if I were in San Francisco I probably would have picked it up, but it's not worth shipping across country. Now then, should you happen across one labled "Vic-1540", you had better grab it as they are ultra-rare. I've only heard that they exist, I've never actually seen one. Supposedly they were introduced for a short time before the Vic-1541 and the drive speed is set for the Vic-20, and therefore will not work with the later Commodore machines. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 5:01 AM Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) >I know what a 1541 disk drive is, but what about a Vic-1541? Is it worth $10? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From william at ans.net Mon Jan 19 09:52:13 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980119003127.010459f0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: > Most of them were > grayscale but a few really flossy ones had 24-bit color. Many critics complained about NeXT only offering greyscale initially. > In their time (like the Lisa) computers that too few people > understood; I think the general public never did understand the NeXT boxes. They offered a bunch of stuff that PeeCees and Macs did not offer, or were not common at the time, so much of what they saw was a big price tag. Engineers and college types saw machines with a few too many flaws and disadvantages. Sun-3xs (3/80 and 3/480, specifically) offered much the same features, plus color and an established applications base. The SPARCstations put the final nails in the NeXT coffin. The SGI 4D/s also helped keep the NeXT down, as the Irises simply blew the Next away in the graphics and speed departments. It really was a nice try, but too late in the workstation world. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 06:14:54 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: One question was: Re: Cleaning out my storage room... In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980119005610.3fe799ea@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801191710.MAA10309@mail.cgocable.net> Oh, About lunchbox, I nearly forgot, To anyone who knows the Canadian-USA border well, could anyone tell me what is proper proccedures to let border guys know that I'm ridding of this lunchbox? It has the small yellow serial label that border person stuck on my lunchbox when I was travelling to visit my friend. The empty lunchbox was originally privately brought used by mail from a person in USA during last summer. Thanks! Jason D. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 19 11:28:28 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: System/34 Message-ID: <9800198852.AA885259820@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Someone asked about power requirements for IBM S/34. All I can say is it's less than 7 kVA (ours was plugged into 30A, 240V single phase circuit. The other one at IBM Bristol was plugged into a 3-phase 415V socket but I don't know whether it used all 3 phases) If there's one going begging, I want it as long as (a) it's within 200mi of Coalville, England and (b) it can wait a week or three while I get my truck back on the road. Philip From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 19 12:30:15 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Transformer theory for computer hackers. Message-ID: <9800198852.AA885263593@compsci.powertech.co.uk> This would be easier with some diagrams, but I'll do my best. This is not strictly on topic but I think I'd better clear up some of the confusion since I caused it! The equivalent circuit of a transformer is an "ideal transformer" in series with an impedance and in parallel with a magnetising impedance: O---------------+----------UUUUUU----/\/\/\/----)||(-------------O | )||( / Xs Rs )||( O I \ Rm )||( U N / )||( T P | )||( P U ) )||( U T ) Xm )||( T ) )||( | )||( O---------------+-------------------------------)||(-------------O The ideal transformer merely changes voltage. Xs = series reactance (inductive) Rs = series resistance (copper loss - due to resistance of windings) Xm = magnetising reactance Rm = magnetising resistance (iron loss - due to hysteresis of core) There are two things limiting the power you can shove through a transformer. First (and quite easy) is the thermal limit - the current flowing in Rs. In reality, the thermal limit is the current flowing in _any_ winding, which might burn out that winding. Next is the flux in the core. The two windings of the ideal transformer carry equal and opposite ampere-turns, and their flux cancels out. The flux in the core is determined by the current in Xm, which depends on voltage and frequency (remember it's an inductor - more current at lower frequencies) Usually the transformer has a primary winding with a rated voltage (so you don't over-flux it. It also has a VA rating which determines the current (so you don't burn out the windings) If you are trying to kludge things, there are some special cases to worry about. 1. 50Hz MAINS. If your transformer is designed for 60Hz mains and you want to use it at 50Hz, the lower frequency will meaan that Xm is lower. (X=2*PI*f*L). The magnetising impedance will draw more current, and the flux in the core will be higher. From a practical point of view, this means that the rated VOLTAGE must be lower. For example if it is designed for 240V, 60Hz, at 50Hz the rating is 200V. This is called DERATING. Since the rated voltage is lower, and the rated current is the same (excessive current will melt copper whatever the voltage), the VA rating is also less. Most small commercial transformers are designed for 50Hz anyway, so this shouldn't be a problem. However (following the discussion of mainframes and things) most [North American] medium to large power transformers are not! (Medium > 5kVA I suppose. Large probably > 50 kVA. Hard to say - in my job I regularly deal (at least on paper) with 500000kVA transformers) 2. HOME MADE AUTOTRANSFORMERS. An autotransformer has the low voltage end of one winding connected to the high voltage end of another. This saves copper, reduces core size, etc. It is often used for converting between mains voltages and is at its best around the 2:1 voltage ratio. Many small transformers are made with two primary windings, each rated at 120V or thereabouts. The idea is to connect them in series for 240V operation and in parallel for 120V. A trick I mentioned a few days ago is to wire them together as an autotransformer (Windings are W1 and W2 in the diagram: +---------------O | )|| W1 )|| )|| O-----------------+|| )|| IN- W2 )|| PUT )|| | O-----------------+---------------O Call the VA rating of the transformer V*I, where V is the voltage rating of the windings in series (usually 240V) and I is the current that flows in each winding. On the HV (higher voltage) side, we want V and I. On the LV side we must therefore provide V/2 and 2I. (Assuming an ideal transformer for the moment) Now each winding is rated at V/2, so energising one at this voltage is not a problem. But each winding is only rated at I, so what do you do with the 2I you have to supply? 2I must flow in at the junction of the two windings, and I must flow out at the HV terminal. It is easy to see that I will flow through W1; the rest of the current entering at the junction must flow through W2. Simple arithmetic tells you that each winding carries a current of I; the ampere turns are equal and opposite, so the transformer will work. However, once you add the imperfections, you do start to get a few problems. I'd have to do some serious calcs to find out exactly how Zs (= Rs + i*Xs) and Zm affect it, but you may have to take a VA rating 10% or so lower than nameplate. Which is not much of a loss. You also have a regulation problem. Most small transformers have extra turns on the secondary to compensate for the voltage drop across Zs. Here you are only using the primary, so you don't get this. Expect a voltage drop (proportional to load current, of course) of about 10% to 20% (less for larger transformers) at full load. So, in response to Tony's comment, the transformer won't mind if you use it almost up to nameplate rating - but you may not get as many volts out as you expected. Using a transformer at 30% of nameplate rating is as good a way as any to avoid this! In response to (I forget your name - sorry!) I hope this has explained what I was getting at. Finally, SCOTT CONNECTION etc. Someone yesterday(?) tried to perpetuate one of the myths about the Scott transformer, which is used in converting balanced 2-phase to 3-phase power. If you have two phases at 90 deg to each other, you have a balanced 2-phase supply. This is very rare! There will usually be 3 wires - two phases and neutral - and the phase to phase voltage will be about 1.41 times the phase to neutral voltage. The scott transformer (actually two single phase transformers) converts this to and from 3 phase. Most US domestic supplies (and a few UK rural supplies to farms and things) have two phases at 180 deg to each other - phase to phase voltage is twice phase to neutral voltage. THERE IS NO TRANSFORMER THAT WILL GIVE YOU THREE PHASE FROM SUCH A SUPPLY. You need preferably a motor-generator or dynamotor (motor-generator sharing a common rotor winding). As mentioned previously, an induction motor with suitable capacitors and things will do this quite well up to a point. Electronic converters exist and are getting cheaper all the time... Finally, you may have two of the phases of a three-phase system. If you have three wires - two phases and neutral - there is a transformer that will derive balanced 3-phase from this. If not, you're in the same position as with a single phase or unbalanced 2-phase (which is actually single phase centre tapped to earth) supply. If anyone STILL doesn't understand what's going on, ask privately. Who knows? If I get very many questions, I may be posting "3 phase ac theory for computer hackers" before long... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 19 13:57:19 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <34c17e6f.1043629@mail.swbell.net> Message-ID: <13325521774.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> YEAH! And not all of us have Windows to read email with - I got to ^Q thru all that... ------- From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 19 13:29:00 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > One scheme that I have seen used to power a 3-phase motor (on a lathe or > > such) is to connect a 3-phase motor of comparable rating or higher to the > > single-phase mains and also connect all three phases to the motor to be > > powered. The motor connected to mains is powered up - it may require a > > twist to get it spinning - and when up to a steady speed, the lathe (or > > whatever) motor may be powered up. I'm sure that there are some > > inefficiencies, but I have seen it work. > > Yes, it works, but is quite inefficient. I would venture to say that using > a real motor-generator would be better, if properly maintained. Can't quarrel with that, but the price difference between an old 3-phase induction motor and an MG set can be rather impressive! - don > Motor-generators are not as bad as most people think - a good one is > fairly efficient, provides isolation and regulation, and can take a lot of > electrical abuse. They are just bears to move (done it - not fun). > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From william at ans.net Mon Jan 19 14:24:28 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Can't quarrel with that, but the price difference between an old 3-phase > induction motor and an MG set can be rather impressive! I have found with motors and generators the scroungers rule of "be there at the right place at the right time with a big vehicle" to be quite effective. William Donzelli william@ans.net From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 19 14:38:25 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980119153816.006a78d0@netpath.net> At 11:57 AM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote: >YEAH! And not all of us have Windows to read email with - >I got to ^Q thru all that... Don't have windows??? How'd that neanderthal get in here?!? :) (Ow! I'm kidding! Ow! I said I was kidding! OwOwOwOw!!!!) Seriously, some people just assume that everyone else can support their standards. I've been partially guilty of it too. I send all my attachments as MIME, mainly because that's the standard in my main working environment (win95/NT). I'm a graphic artist and web page designer. I could only do 30% of my job in a text based environment if it came down to that (sometimes it does). Then again, everyone I know that I send attachments to have mail clients than can handle MIME. (I check the message headers for X-Sender before I do) Still, that doesn't make it right to send attachments to a list. It could have been worse. It could have come out of a "rich text" or HTML compatible mail client. (Then all heck would break loose, Dogar, the Many-Handed One would hand out the proper punishments, and all zeroes would flow across the lines, as the backbones crumble from their fury! So it was written, so it shall be!) (Uhh, was there ever a point in this message where it was on topic? Uh oh. Better fix that.) So, uh, speaking of Commodores... Anyone know where I can pick up an Amiga 500 or 1000 real cheap? :) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 13:32:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) In-Reply-To: <003d01bd24dd$8d5b86c0$cb27a2ce@cliffgre> from "Cliff Gregory" at Jan 19, 98 08:24:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980119/22f2db0c/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 10:33:21 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980119153816.006a78d0@netpath.net> Message-ID: <199801192129.QAA01834@mail.cgocable.net> > At 11:57 AM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote: > >YEAH! And not all of us have Windows to read email with - > >I got to ^Q thru all that... > > Don't have windows??? How'd that neanderthal get in here?!? :) > (Ow! I'm kidding! Ow! I said I was kidding! OwOwOwOw!!!!) Yes, I can add hurting to yours...I do not use Mime or anything fancy to waste bandwidth and overshadow the real meaning. So, shut that thing and use old, creaky email that speak ascii. :) I talk same way to keep everybody happy and be KISS. Jason D. (Screaming follows...) From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Jan 19 15:54:10 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) Message-ID: <199801192154.WAA06886@mbox.queen.it> At 08:24 19/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >The Vic-1541's are somewhat more uncommon that the >C-1541's, and are in a little more demand among Commodore collectors for >that reason. ..omissis.. >Now then, should you happen across one labled "Vic-1540", you had better >grab it as they are ultra-rare. I've only heard that they exist, I've never >actually seen one. Who saw a C=1570? How much would worth? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 19 15:51:30 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980119153816.006a78d0@netpath.net> Message-ID: <13325542559.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> HEY! I [LART] DON'T [LART] THINK [LART] THAT [LART] WAS [LART] FUNNY! [LART LART LART] Yes, that's been done. But it was funny enough I had to copycat it. ------- From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jan 19 11:04:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980119003759.291f9f44@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801192213.RAA12517@smtp.interlog.com> On 19 Jan 98 at 3:03, Uncle Roger wrote: > Spotted a few things that someone might be interested in, and that I wasn't > sure what they were... > > First, and oddest, was a pizza box labelled Nissho Electronics. Looked > like a workstation, one 3.5". Almost got it, but for $26... Anyone know > what it might have been? > > Commodore 64 for $5, 64c in the box for $15 -- Anyone interested? > > I know what a 1541 disk drive is, but what about a Vic-1541? Is it worth $10? > Except for the color their the same. 1541s go for about $5 (can) in local thrift stores. The Vic-1541s' value would be to Vic collectors as they're becoming a little harder to come by. > I did pick up a C modem/300 (model 1660) for $.99 and an Osborne 1 keyboard > (only!) for (I know, too much, but it's an Osborne!) $5. > > Oh, they also had a few IBM PS/2 style monitors with a single RCA jack > input on the back; they were mounted on little stands, kinda like (I think) > the Apple IIc monitors. Possibly Composite? Possibly from some POS > terminal/cash register? A little steep at $26 though. (Looked new though!) > What denotes a PS/2 "style" monitor ? I haven't heard this term before and have several P/S2 s. The RCA jack would suggest a composite monitor. ciao larry > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jan 19 11:04:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: One question was: Re: Cleaning out my storage room... In-Reply-To: <199801191710.MAA10309@mail.cgocable.net> References: <3.0.16.19980119005610.3fe799ea@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801192214.RAA12571@smtp.interlog.com> On 19 Jan 98 at 12:14, jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Oh, > > About lunchbox, > > I nearly forgot, To anyone who knows the Canadian-USA border well, > could anyone tell me what is proper proccedures to let border guys > know that I'm ridding of this lunchbox? It has the small yellow > serial label that border person stuck on my lunchbox when I was > travelling to visit my friend. The empty lunchbox was originally > privately brought used by mail from a person in USA during last > summer. > A friend of mine who deals extensively cross-border suggesrs describing it on custom papers as "used computer equipment-for evaluation purposes only" ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jan 19 11:04:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199801192214.RAA12592@smtp.interlog.com> On 19 Jan 98 at 11:29, Don Maslin wrote: > On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > One scheme that I have seen used to power a 3-phase motor (on a lathe or > > > such) is to connect a 3-phase motor of comparable rating or higher to the > > > single-phase mains and also connect all three phases to the motor to be > > > powered. The motor connected to mains is powered up - it may require a > > > twist to get it spinning - and when up to a steady speed, the lathe (or > > > whatever) motor may be powered up. I'm sure that there are some > > > inefficiencies, but I have seen it work. > > > > Yes, it works, but is quite inefficient. I would venture to say that using > > a real motor-generator would be better, if properly maintained. > > Can't quarrel with that, but the price difference between an old 3-phase > induction motor and an MG set can be rather impressive! > > - don > > > Motor-generators are not as bad as most people think - a good one is > > fairly efficient, provides isolation and regulation, and can take a lot of > > electrical abuse. They are just bears to move (done it - not fun). > > > > William Donzelli > > william@ans.net > > > > I used to treasure old electric dryer motors for lathes and such. They have the starting power to initiate and then kick out to single phase when up to speed. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jan 19 11:04:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Toronto-area comp museums ? In-Reply-To: <199801182150.QAA24347@golden.net> Message-ID: <199801192214.RAA12617@smtp.interlog.com> On 18 Jan 98 at 16:50, Unusual systems wrote: > Did any one ever reply? I believe I'm the chap in the K-W area. We once had > Canada's first computer museum, but it has since closed. Have you seen our > web site? www.sentex.net/~ccmuseum. > > Please let me know what I can do to help you. > Not a peep !! It's amazing that the 5th largest city in N.A. has nary a one. Only you and Charlie Fox in Windsor TMK. Thanks for the URL I had a reference to it at one time but misplaced it. Any other TO area folks on the list ? ciao larry > > lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 12:03:32 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) In-Reply-To: <199801192213.RAA12517@smtp.interlog.com> References: <3.0.16.19980119003759.291f9f44@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801192259.RAA21288@mail.cgocable.net> Hi anyone! > On 19 Jan 98 at 3:03, Uncle Roger wrote: > > Oh, they also had a few IBM PS/2 style monitors with a single RCA jack > > input on the back; they were mounted on little stands, kinda like (I think) > > the Apple IIc monitors. Possibly Composite? Possibly from some POS > > terminal/cash register? A little steep at $26 though. (Looked new though!) > > > What denotes a PS/2 "style" monitor ? I haven't heard this term > before and have several P/S2 s. The RCA jack would suggest a > composite monitor. I also call this into question because IBM if I hear hint of PS/2 or PS/2 style always are compatiable with IBM PS/2 standard not pre-PS/2 where it used TTL levels or (for IBM's didn't had a ibm monitor with RCA (composite) connection, clones and other non-ibm brands did.) Only once, IBM made CGA cards with that connection so users can use TV (40 columns GAG!) or hi quality composite monitors required to resolve 80 and graphics better but quality is still average because of visible lines. EGA still have this "lines but not so bad" The TTL is wonderful but even better attached by HGC card. The pre-VGA was PGA that bombed because IBM asked too much and too much resource requirements. Takes 3 slots, cost over 4K for complete set and talks thru slow 8 bit slot. The final killer it has weirdo hardware acceleration that is fully 5-10 years ahead of software's time. Oh, I do have a labeled "IBM" VGA mono 9" in PS/2 style and paid 150 in early 90's as a bench monitor. The original video signal black cable gave up (common! I suspected that IBM used specific cable maker who brundled the wires TOO TIGHTLY. But if you have comments on this cable failures, please do so.) so I used $5 VGA extender cable and snipped one end off then put it in. This repair lasted longer than that orignal cable and still going good! Light and tiny. What was that monitor used for? POS? What else? Larry, How did you gotten your PS/2 machines? I have bad time finding one anywhere else in Canada. I do appreciate your help to locate a older PS/2 machine box if you know of one very cheaply, if you have need to know more, ask me by email if you wish. Take care. Jason D. From cgregory at lrbcg.com Mon Jan 19 17:11:24 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale Message-ID: <007a01bd252f$912d5600$9327a2ce@cliffgre> Seems to me these kits are still available from some distributor on the net for around $30. I'll see if I can dig up the exact URL. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 7:46 PM Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale > >A friend of mine has an original unbuilt Sinclair kit for sale at what >looks like an interesting price. If you're interested, contact him >directly at squest@cris.com and tell him Anthony Clifton - Wirehead sent you. > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > From billm at teleport.com Mon Jan 19 17:35:31 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (Bill Marx) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: to PG Manney In-Reply-To: <199801182210.OAA03609@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 18, 98 05:07:02 pm Message-ID: <199801192335.PAA02029@user2.teleport.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 171 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980119/8caf45ce/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 19 18:08:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980119003759.291f9f44@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > I know what a 1541 disk drive is, but what about a Vic-1541? Is it worth $10? The VIC-1541 was a drive for the VIC-20 only. Apparently, Commodore designed the 1541 to only work on the C64 and the VIC-1541 to only work on the VIC-20. How cute. Is this actually the case? I think there was probably some way to modify either to work on either. Not worth $10 though. Maybe $2-$5. They're very common (I have about 4 of them). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jan 19 18:08:27 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980119153816.006a78d0@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jan 19, 98 03:38:25 pm Message-ID: <199801200008.TAA00506@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great John Higginbotham once stated: > > At 11:57 AM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote: > >YEAH! And not all of us have Windows to read email with - > >I got to ^Q thru all that... > > Don't have windows??? How'd that neanderthal get in here?!? :) > (Ow! I'm kidding! Ow! I said I was kidding! OwOwOwOw!!!!) Not only do I not use Windows, but I don't use the Mac to read me email either. Nor do I use a POP-aware email client. Large emails I can handle, but MIME on the other hand ... > Seriously, some people just assume that everyone else can support their > standards. I've been partially guilty of it too. I send all my attachments > as MIME, mainly because that's the standard in my main working environment > (win95/NT). I'm a graphic artist and web page designer. I could only do 30% > of my job in a text based environment if it came down to that (sometimes it > does). Then again, everyone I know that I send attachments to have mail > clients than can handle MIME. "The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!" (WARNING: The following is very seriously "In My Not-So-Humble Opinion." You have been warned 8-) MIME is probably one of the worst things to have been created, especially since there already exists a medium to transfer files through the Internet: FTP (okay, I realize that for Windows/Mac users, sending a file to someone using FTP may not be the easiest thing to do, or even possible). The email standard (at least on the Internet) has always been defined for 7bit ASCII only. Hence UUENCODE or base64 that most files get munged into when being transmitted via email. And that is what I really dislike about MIME - in stead of creating a new 8-bit clean multimedia email/file transport protocol (it's not like there isn't formats already available to do this) people decided to still use the old 7-bit ASCII transmission medium. Sheesh! (Oops, I'm starting to rant. Then again, I tend to do that after reading half-backed standandards documents). But, getting somewhat back to the list charter - the software I use to read email is approximately 10 years old (and in fact, I started using it on machines that are over 10 years old this year) and while it has been patched to recognize MIME, the support is such that it isn't seamless enough to be painless, but enough of it is there to be exceedingly annoying (like driving on the freeway and hitting a brick wall to mix metaphors). Most MIME encoded email I get is simply ignored as it's faster for me that way (unless I get around to ripping MIME support out of my email program). That, and the crap that Microsoft mailers send out (since I'm not using a Microsoft product). > So, uh, speaking of Commodores... Anyone know where I can pick up an Amiga > 500 or 1000 real cheap? :) Uh, not really. I'm holding onto my Amiga real tight. -spc (Maybe I'll starting sending email out in TeX format ... 8-) From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 19 18:18:22 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801200008.TAA00506@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <13325569297.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> SO what? I read my messages from TOPS-20. Beat that. ------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jan 19 18:17:46 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980119002825.3f9f35f2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119181746.006be918@pop3.concentric.net> I have copy of this book also and have used it alot. I got mind from the publisher could not find here in the twincities. He was writing a second updated book but I have not hear anymore about it's do day. At 03:03 AM 1/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 10:26 PM 1/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Haddock says (now that I'm home) the Compass was early 1982, $6000-8000. >> >>Forgive me, my ignorance, O Wise One, but what is this Haddock? > >I think that's the first time anyone's ever called me wise (except, of >course, myself, who knew it all along.) 8^) > >Haddock, Dr. Thomas F., author of "A Collector's Guide to Personal >Computers and Pocket Calculators", ISBN # 0-89689-098-8. > >It's an excellent first go at a refernce book on collectible >microcomputers; incomplete, and inconistant, but a good start. (I can't >speak for the calculator part.) Prices are not realistic (some too high, >others too low) and missing a lot of machines, but good for what it's got. >I think I got my copy from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/) but other >bookstores (like powell's (http://www.powells.com/) might have it as well.) > >His PhD, btw, is in physics, and he's also the author of a book on Jag >E-type restoration. Go figure. > > > From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 19 18:24:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > The VIC-1541 was a drive for the VIC-20 only. Apparently, Commodore > designed the 1541 to only work on the C64 and the VIC-1541 to only work on > the VIC-20. How cute. Is this actually the case? I think there was > probably some way to modify either to work on either. Not worth $10 > though. Maybe $2-$5. They're very common (I have about 4 of them). Duh. Sorry. Listen to the other (more knowledgeable) people on the VIC-1541 drive. I guess I didn't know as much about them as I thought. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jan 19 18:35:45 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) In-Reply-To: <199801192154.WAA06886@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119183545.006c49cc@pop3.concentric.net> I have three of them and hope to put pictures on my web site soon. At 10:54 PM 1/19/98 +0100, you wrote: >At 08:24 19/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >>The Vic-1541's are somewhat more uncommon that the >>C-1541's, and are in a little more demand among Commodore collectors for >>that reason. >..omissis.. >>Now then, should you happen across one labled "Vic-1540", you had better >>grab it as they are ultra-rare. I've only heard that they exist, I've never >>actually seen one. > >Who saw a C=1570? >How much would worth? > > >???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? >? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? >? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? >? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? >? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? >? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? >???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > > > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 19 21:30:44 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale In-Reply-To: <007a01bd252f$912d5600$9327a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: Yeah ok. I just report what I'm told. I'm not a salesman. I'm not an apologist. If you want to negotiate price with the guy contact him directly at squest@cris.com. I'm not making any money off them. I don't care if sells any. I don't care if anyone buys any. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > Seems to me these kits are still available from some distributor on the net > for around $30. I'll see if I can dig up the exact URL. > > -----Original Message----- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Cgregory > Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 7:46 PM > Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale > > > > > > >A friend of mine has an original unbuilt Sinclair kit for sale at what > >looks like an interesting price. If you're interested, contact him > >directly at squest@cris.com and tell him Anthony Clifton - Wirehead sent > you. > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > > > > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 19 20:38:44 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Portability (was: Firsts) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980119114600.526ffaf2@ricochet.net> At 05:17 AM 1/17/98 +0000, you wrote: > I've got a Kaypro "portable" that I lift occasionally to keep fit I can do better than that -- I've got a Zenith that makes the Kaypro look pocket sized. *But* both fold up conveniently, and can be carried with one hand. The IBM 5100 (and RS mIII, Commodore Pet, HP 85, etc.) is *not* convenient to tote around on a regular basis. I still maintain that any reference to portability IBM might have made (aside from outright lie-- I mean marketing) simply refers to not needing a moving company, air conditioning installer, electrician, etc. when moving the office. I cannot accept that anyone at the time would have expected someone to lug it around it with them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 19 20:38:54 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Kaypro's Available Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980119123946.5a2f895c@ricochet.net> At 08:31 PM 1/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >Would any collectors be interested in Kaypros. > >I have four -- some complete with original advertisement, software, >manuals, etc. Definitely! Where and how much? Which models? Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 19 20:39:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980119153202.5f87bb6c@ricochet.net> At 05:04 PM 1/19/98 +0000, you wrote: >> Oh, they also had a few IBM PS/2 style monitors with a single RCA jack >> > What denotes a PS/2 "style" monitor ? I haven't heard this term >before and have several P/S2 s. The RCA jack would suggest a >composite monitor. It's the kind of case; the PS/2 style is rather different from the old 5150 style. Dunno if it was actually part of the PS/2 line-up or not. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jan 19 20:37:09 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale In-Reply-To: References: <007a01bd252f$912d5600$9327a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980119213709.009f3560@mail.northernway.net> At 09:30 PM 1/19/98 -0600, Anthony Clifton wrote: > >Yeah ok. I just report what I'm told. I'm not a salesman. I'm not an >apologist. If you want to negotiate price with the guy contact him >directly at squest@cris.com. I'm not making any money off them. I don't >care if sells any. I don't care if anyone buys any. >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > Cliff Gregory Wrote: >> Seems to me these kits are still available from some distributor on the net >> for around $30. I'll see if I can dig up the exact URL. [snip] Sir Anthony, I don't believe that Sir Cliff was undermining your post -- for you posted no actual prices. All you stated was: "at what looks like an interesting price." An interesting price to me is $5.00. An interesting price to another could be $500.00. Frankly, I wouldn't pay either price right now due to lack of spare time to actually build the kit (which is what I would do -- I *like* trying to burn my fingers with a soldering iron (thank goodness I'm horrible at it - the burning, that is ;-)). I believe Cliff was just mentioning the URL just in case the Sinclair kit that you mentioned was already gone -- there may be a source for more so that others could enjoy them to. [Of course, I'm an optimist...] Anyway, that's my take on this situation -- now back to the rest of my (short) 12-hour shift. See ya, and chin up, eh? Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jan 19 20:45:04 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 19, 98 09:30:44 pm Message-ID: <9801200245.AA08278@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980119/5bd71f26/attachment.ksh From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Mon Jan 19 20:24:01 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Cleaning out my storage room... Message-ID: <199801200247.SAA14631@mxu2.u.washington.edu> I dibs the 486 and/or the VLB card, if it has drivers. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Mon Jan 19 20:13:35 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Kaypro's Available Message-ID: <199801200247.SAA21177@mx4.u.washington.edu> Sure -- I'm interested. btw, might I (humbly) suggest that anyone offering something for sale include his (her) e-mail address in the message? Then the subsequent hail of offers will stay off the LISTSERV. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Mon Jan 19 20:43:55 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <199801200247.SAA07602@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > SO what? I read my messages from TOPS-20. > Beat that. I print 'em out on stone using an HP 7140 plotter with a knife attached and use the pony express to get them to my cave. manney From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 18 08:57:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980118095729.006abef4@netpath.net> At 09:43 PM 1/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >I print 'em out on stone using an HP 7140 plotter with a knife attached and >use the pony express to get them to my cave. And I thought dialing into my ISP at 2400 baud with my Atari Portfolio was roughing it. Or before that, on a TRS-80 Model 100 at 300baud. Had to find a 40 column termcap for that one. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From bmahoney at sprint.ca Mon Jan 19 20:55:12 1998 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: computer collectors index Message-ID: <34C41210.6FB7@sprint.ca> Isaac, Did this list get anywhere? I just found this discussion today, although I have been collecting and have had a collecting page on the web for two years. If it has amounted to something, please add my name and email. Brian Mahoney in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. bmahoney@sprint.ca Thanks From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 19:21:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 19, 98 04:08:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980120/a570d427/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jan 19 21:24:17 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980118095729.006abef4@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jan 18, 98 09:57:35 am Message-ID: <199801200324.WAA01270@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great John Higginbotham once stated: > > At 09:43 PM 1/19/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >I print 'em out on stone using an HP 7140 plotter with a knife attached and > >use the pony express to get them to my cave. > > And I thought dialing into my ISP at 2400 baud with my Atari Portfolio was > roughing it. Or before that, on a TRS-80 Model 100 at 300baud. Had to find > a 40 column termcap for that one. I've been known to use a Data General-1 (using the built in terminal emulator - an ADM-3A) and a Okidata 1200 baud modem to check my email (mostly when traveling). -spc (Before that, an IBM PCjr at 300, then 1200 ... ) From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jan 19 21:31:14 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119213114.006baa34@pop3.concentric.net> Well over the last few days I've found a Multi-Tech Systems FM30 Data Coupler with cord for .80; a Heathkit Digital Design Experimenter model ET-3200-B for .80 no doc's where with it, will play around this weekend with it; 2 SUN spreakerboxs' for $5 each this place has about 50 of them for sale; Apple PC 5.25 ext drive for free not tested yet; a EPSON P.I.C. parallel interface cartridge #8620A no way to test it for now; IBM pc convertible printer and adapter unit for free got get convertible going to test unit; a Apple plotter model A9M0302 for $15 need s some clean and maybe parts before I can test it; Lisa with keyboard for .80 not tested yet card slot in back were open as if someone too them out at the thrift store; another Toshiba T1000 that works has carrying case power supply and manuals; HP IIIsi for $15 needs work; Laserwriter II $15 needs work; Kodak Diconix 150Plus free and not tested yet; LattisNet Synoptics model 102 $15 and not tested yet; a stripped Mac IIsi for free; and several other units and parts that do not meet the ten year rule. I hope to have better luck when all this snow goes away until them Keep Computing !! John From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 17:13:37 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Cleaning out my storage room... In-Reply-To: <199801200247.SAA14631@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199801200409.XAA02396@mail.cgocable.net> > I dibs the 486 and/or the VLB card, if it has drivers. > > manney@nwohio.com > FWIW, I do NOT like to deal with oddball stuff becuase I have linux and lot of stuff used on the boards so tends to stick with known parts that works well with anything you can find on s/w's world. :) Manney, Firstly, the VLB video card is generic and uses Tseng ET4000ax BUT the s/w support is widely supported and Tseng web site have the s/w for that older dos and win 3.x, win95 already have it but I prefer to d/l the tseng's drivers for anything. Two reasons I always try to find more Tseng cards was s/w support and frame buffer performance is murderously FAST. The ET4000/w32i and p is same but have acceleration built in. ET6x00 is out and in current production. The biggie problem I could not find even one store or supplier does not carry anything that uses Tseng chip in Kingston or Toronto area. When I know of one that I can order a generic card with that one with help from your guys in USA that is preferably inexpensive later in time? Even CL and Trident are dead slow compared to any Tseng chips. So, that's could settle your doubts. What's up with your cataloging your pile of motherboards going so far? Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 17:38:04 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Oops! Sorry! Re: Cleaning out my storage room... In-Reply-To: <199801200409.XAA02396@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199801200247.SAA14631@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199801200433.XAA07297@mail.cgocable.net> I was not looking when I hit the button thinkign the Manney responded privately. sorry. Jason D. From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Mon Jan 19 22:32:25 1998 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Toronto-area comp museums ? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980120043225.006604d4@vader.kootenay.net> Not in toronto, but I live in Castlegar British Columbia, Canada Nice Computer website. Chris :) >On 18 Jan 98 at 16:50, Unusual systems wrote: > >> Did any one ever reply? I believe I'm the chap in the K-W area. We once had >> Canada's first computer museum, but it has since closed. Have you seen our >> web site? www.sentex.net/~ccmuseum. >> >> Please let me know what I can do to help you. >> >Not a peep !! It's amazing that the 5th largest city in N.A. has nary >a one. Only you and Charlie Fox in Windsor TMK. Thanks for the URL >I had a reference to it at one time but misplaced it. > Any other TO area folks on the list ? > >ciao larry >> >> >lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com > > From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 19 23:10:05 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Can't quarrel with that, but the price difference between an old 3-phase > > induction motor and an MG set can be rather impressive! > > I have found with motors and generators the scroungers rule of "be there > at the right place at the right time with a big vehicle" to be quite > effective. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net You are right, of course. When skill, cunning, and daring come face to face with luck and superstition, it is luck and superstition that win every time! (And being there at the right time suitably equipped is largely luck.) - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 18:30:23 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: testing my sig In-Reply-To: <199801200247.SAA21177@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199801200525.AAA02208@mail.cgocable.net> testing... see if that works... Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 19 22:29:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <3.0.32.19980118095729.006abef4@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34C42823.7C5790C3@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 09:43 PM 1/19/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >I print 'em out on stone using an HP 7140 plotter with a knife attached and > >use the pony express to get them to my cave. > > And I thought dialing into my ISP at 2400 baud with my Atari Portfolio was > roughing it. Or before that, on a TRS-80 Model 100 at 300baud. Had to find > a 40 column termcap for that one. 'tweren't hard to find. Was stock in the TRS-Xenix 1.3.2 at latest, but was easily creatable by copying the vt52 termcap and reseting rows and columns. As I did for a much earlier version of TRS-Xenix. (I had to -- customers needed it and I was the Radio Shack customer support guy on the scene, and besides I needed it for myself). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 19 22:36:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements References: Message-ID: <34C429E9.AA27CAB1@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, it works, but is quite inefficient. I would venture to say that using > a real motor-generator would be better, if properly maintained. > Motor-generators are not as bad as most people think - a good one is > fairly efficient, provides isolation and regulation, and can take a lot of > electrical abuse. They are just bears to move (done it - not fun). Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt (it was filthy). One nice thing about the 400 hz 3-phase APUs we had in the USAF is that they were on wheels. (Of course, powering up a C-5A Galaxy takes a bigger unit than most mainframes. Even old ones.) -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 19 22:43:33 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube References: <3.0.5.32.19980119003127.010459f0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <34C42B75.21135D7F@cnct.com> Kip Crosby wrote: > > At 22:12 1/18/98 -0500, John wrote: > >Okay, I know NeXT was the baby of Steve Jobs, but what exactly is it based > >on? Is it an entirely new animal? If anyone can point me to some info, I'd > >appreciate it. > > 68030- or 68040-based, running a variant of MACH UNIX called NeXTSTEP. At Nonono. Mach bears a similar relationship to Unix to the one that Linux has -- no AT&T or Berkley source code in the kernel. It was an independent effort at what is now Posix by Carnegie-Mellon. It's Mach, not "Mach Unix". A damned good effort at the time, actually. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 19 23:07:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <3.0.32.19980119153816.006a78d0@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34C430FC.B15C2E9E@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 11:57 AM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote: > >YEAH! And not all of us have Windows to read email with - > >I got to ^Q thru all that... > > Don't have windows??? How'd that neanderthal get in here?!? :) > (Ow! I'm kidding! Ow! I said I was kidding! OwOwOwOw!!!!) > > Seriously, some people just assume that everyone else can support their > standards. I've been partially guilty of it too. I send all my attachments > as MIME, mainly because that's the standard in my main working environment If I was subscribing from work through Louse-us Notes, there's be no problem, and besides it's through a T-1. At home, I use a slow modem. And some of us use _Plain old vanilla Unix email_, what don't handle that 8th bit very well. Og, bring me that antelope thighbone. An ugly job, but it has to be done. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 19 23:15:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <13325569297.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <34C432E1.98FCF587@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > SO what? I read my messages from TOPS-20. > Beat that. > ------- How? I can't hook a Digicomp-I to a modem, the plastic melts when the phone rings. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 18:46:45 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements In-Reply-To: <34C429E9.AA27CAB1@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199801200542.AAA04840@mail.cgocable.net> > William Donzelli wrote: > Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt (it was filthy). One nice > thing about the 400 hz 3-phase APUs we had in the USAF is that they > were on wheels. (Of course, powering up a C-5A Galaxy takes a bigger > unit than most mainframes. Even old ones.) Holy! That much required to make the C-5A go?! That is enough to light and heat everything in a average house or maybe two. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 19 18:48:53 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:22 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <34C432E1.98FCF587@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199801200544.AAA05144@mail.cgocable.net> > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > SO what? I read my messages from TOPS-20. > > Beat that. > > ------- > How? I can't hook a Digicomp-I to a modem, the plastic melts > when the phone rings. Hm...what's TOPS-20? Jason D. Ever curious... > -- > Ward Griffiths > Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? > WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jan 19 23:52:07 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980119213114.006baa34@pop3.concentric.net> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Jan 19, 98 09:31:14 pm Message-ID: <9801200552.AA08035@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 333 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980119/5965b235/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 19 23:55:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Mini & Mainframe Power Requirements References: <199801200542.AAA04840@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <34C43C69.E6BD562A@cnct.com> jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt (it was filthy). One nice > > thing about the 400 hz 3-phase APUs we had in the USAF is that they > > were on wheels. (Of course, powering up a C-5A Galaxy takes a bigger > > unit than most mainframes. Even old ones.) > > Holy! That much required to make the C-5A go?! That is enough to > light and heat everything in a average house or maybe two. The C-5A Galaxy cargo aircraft was 288 feet long with slightly more wingspread. The auxilliary power units were capable of powering the whole damned thing's normal lighting, hydraulics, etc., plus provide starting power for the four engines (officially the same GE model used on a 747, but beefed up a bit for the USAF). The main problem with bringing one home is that they burn a shitload of JP-4 kerosine jetfuel, and they're louder than fight between a punk and its parents. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 20 00:08:31 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <199801200544.AAA05144@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <34C43F5F.66F1264B@cnct.com> jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > > > SO what? I read my messages from TOPS-20. > > > Beat that. > > > ------- > > How? I can't hook a Digicomp-I to a modem, the plastic melts > > when the phone rings. > Hm...what's TOPS-20? > > Jason D. Ever curious... Grab a copy of the Jargon file from the net (maintained by my co-conspirator (nothing to do with computers -- it's political) Eric S. Raymond (crap, gimme a minute, . ESR started out in the MIT TOPS community, he's younger than I am, but he went to a fairly decent school. [Oh, the Jargon File is also available as an actual book made out of dead trees. _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, now I think in its third edition. Either the on-line or print editions are probably must-reads for members of this list as a gagload of historical information is in there, though mostly concerning DEC minis and the culture that grew up around them at MIT and Stanford. (Allison, I assume you know ESR). - Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 20 00:20:21 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube In-Reply-To: <34C42B75.21135D7F@cnct.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980119003127.010459f0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: >> >Okay, I know NeXT was the baby of Steve Jobs, but what exactly is it based >> >on? Is it an entirely new animal? If anyone can point me to some info, I'd >> >appreciate it. >> >> 68030- or 68040-based, running a variant of MACH UNIX called NeXTSTEP. At > >Nonono. Mach bears a similar relationship to Unix to the one that >Linux has -- no AT&T or Berkley source code in the kernel. It was >an independent effort at what is now Posix by Carnegie-Mellon. It's >Mach, not "Mach Unix". A damned good effort at the time, actually. Mach is a Micro Kernal. The version of Unix running on top of it is based on BSD (version 4.3 IIRC). Instead of having X-Windows running on top of UNIX, NeXTStep/OPENSTEP has it's own GUI that uses Display Postscript. The original NeXT machines will run OPENSTEP 4.2, since the next version of the OS after OPENSTEP 4.2 is Rhapsody, it's unlikely they'll be supported by any further OS releases. You can also run the OS on Intel hardware and at least some of the OPENSTEP environment will run on Sun's, HP's and WinNT. Beware, if you're used to UNIX networking, you're likely to be lost trying to set up a NeXT box. I know I was pretty much lost. Of course the great documentation that I got with OPENSTEP 4.2 didn't help much with anything except building a compatible system and installing. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 20 00:40:08 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: RD-53 ?54 RETRY Message-ID: OK, I got a MicroVAX II with a working RD-54 yesterday! I'm finally up and running with VMS. It's one of the Big ones on casters, I think it's what's called a BA-123 enclosure. I'm happy :^) There is something incredibly cool about a system that has the ability to bill users based on CPU usage! Along with this I got a LOT of other stuff. Amongst it all were several RD-53's, which when I connect them up and try to boot the system from them it gives me a ?54 RETRY. Does this mean that they are bad, or that they are simply not bootable disks? Yes, I realize that the RD-53's are some of the worst disks ever made, but I've got a lot around here right now. I'm hoping to use one of the 53's in my VAXstation II/RC (I also got a full fleged backplane yesterday to swap out with the resin filled one). While I'm asking questions, I also got three non-DEC Hard Drives, I gather they can be used with the MicroVAX's. One is a Imprimis Hard Drive Model Number 94166-182, I've determined it's a ESDI 182Mb HD, I've got at least one or two Plessey ESDI controllers that I picked up a couple weeks ago. How do I go about formating these drives? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Jan 20 01:24:26 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: SoCal/TRW Swap Items Message-ID: Hello all on The List; I have been a Lurker here for several months but this is the first opportunity I have taken to actually POST something. For PDP11 folk in the Southern California area, I will have several items of related gear at the TRW Ham Radio Swapmeet in El Segundo, on Saturday Jan the 31st, 7:30am to 11:30am. (The meet is always held the last Saturday of the month) I have several Plessey pieces, including a MicroII which boots into ODT - but I have no disk OS for it.. and a Plessey dual 8" drive module... a Kennedy 5360 Hard Disk with a lucite see-thru cover.. it spins up and comes into ready, but the drive-to-I/F card was mechanically smashed. I have an RA60 that looks good but is untested and an RL02 junk for parts. Also many other bits and pieces and boards.. I am trying to thin out and concentrate my PDP collection. I WOULD LIKE: a formatter/interface card(s) to hook a Kennedy 9300 9-trk to an 11/34a... also A/D and D/A cards for the MINC11, and/or 70's vintage stand-alone or DEC-specific D/A converters. All items I have are for sale/trade/free to good home, and transportation in the SoCal area is included... longer distances according to value of bribe offered. :) AT TRW I am in spaces J21-J23, near the east side of the lot and across from a blue tent with CDroms all over. White Toyota P/U Truck full of Old Stuff, you probably can't miss it. I know this is CA-specific, but one never knows who might be traveling and would be interested. A URL with pix of my stuff is available, but waiting for renovation of the Old Computer section. Please feel free to write to my e-mail address if you would like more info or just to chat... I don't wish to take up ListSpace with personal communications. ;} Thank you for all the great info... many posts have helped me get my own jun^H^H^H systems working thru others giving good advice. Cheers, John From scottk5 at ibm.net Tue Jan 20 07:40:11 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Boot disk images possible? Message-ID: <199801201243.MAA17226@out4.ibm.net> Let me ask some of you wiser heads here on the list a question if I may: Is there a way to archive boot-disk images on my DOS file server? I'm trying to archive some of the DOS versions that are on my older machines. I'm thinking of that .exe format that IBM uses to produce bootable reference disks for the PS/2's.....is there anything comparable to that I can use to make a storable boot-disk image? I do make disk copies of the operating systems I want to save, but would also like to back them up on the server. Can anyone recommend anything that would be simple enough for a newbie like me to use to do this? Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 20 08:11:23 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Portability (was: Firsts) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980119114600.526ffaf2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980120081123.3acf80a8@intellistar.net> At 08:38 PM 1/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 05:17 AM 1/17/98 +0000, you wrote: >the office. I cannot accept that anyone at the time would have expected >someone to lug it around it with them. > Several peole on this list have already stated that they knew people that hauled one around so there's no question that they were portable. There's a big difference between being "expected" to lug one around and being able to lug one around. Moving a 5100 is nothing compared to moving a water cooled computer that occupies 3 or 4 racks and requires 3 phase 416V power. That's why it was called a portable. Joe > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jan 20 08:12:20 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Someone told me.... Message-ID: <199801201405.IAA09568@sunflower.com> That the PCjr had some demo tutorial type programs in rom. Is this true? anyone know how to get to them, or have I been misinformed? Bill From cgregory at lrbcg.com Tue Jan 20 07:14:48 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale Message-ID: <00f001bd25ae$0f9fa5a0$c527a2ce@cliffgre> I wasn't try to ruffle any feathers here, or undercut anyone's price. Your post simply jogged my memory as to the availability of these kits. FWIW the URL is: http://www.users.interport.net/~zebra/ts/ I was just there; it's still a live link. Kind of interesting browsing what they have to offer. BTW, I'm not affiliated with the sellers in any way, nor have I ever purchased from them. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Sinclair Kit for Sale > >Yeah ok. I just report what I'm told. I'm not a salesman. I'm not an >apologist. If you want to negotiate price with the guy contact him >directly at squest@cris.com. I'm not making any money off them. I don't >care if sells any. I don't care if anyone buys any. > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > >> Seems to me these kits are still available from some distributor on the net >> for around $30. I'll see if I can dig up the exact URL. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> To: Cgregory >> Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 7:46 PM >> Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale >> >> >> >> > >> >A friend of mine has an original unbuilt Sinclair kit for sale at what >> >looks like an interesting price. If you're interested, contact him >> >directly at squest@cris.com and tell him Anthony Clifton - Wirehead sent >> you. >> > >> >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> > >> > >> > From cgregory at lrbcg.com Tue Jan 20 07:46:45 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Cordata parts, software Message-ID: <00f301bd25ae$12c3c900$c527a2ce@cliffgre> I recently purchased a computer from a gentleman in Indiana. During our correspondence he mentioned that he had a bunch of parts for the Cordata. To quote him: >I also have enough Cordata pieces/parts to start my own repair shop: >Powersupplies, MB's, cards of all sorts, keyboards, little springs, etc. >etc. Know anyone wanting to suppliment their parts supplies? Somewhere >out there is someone who would give their eye teeth for this stuff! > >If you would like any other old software - I got it! I'm not interested, but maybe someone out there is. His name is Keith Hoffman; his email address is kehoffman@juno.com Contact him directly if interested. Like I said, I bought a computer from him, and he was extremely reasonable and easy to deal with during that transaction. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 20 08:27:12 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: RD-53 ?54 RETRY In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 19, 98 10:40:08 pm Message-ID: <9801201427.AA07269@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980120/c3e72315/attachment.ksh From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jan 20 08:29:45 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Boot disk images possible? In-Reply-To: <199801201243.MAA17226@out4.ibm.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 scottk5@ibm.net wrote: > Let me ask some of you wiser heads here on the list a question if I may: > > Is there a way to archive boot-disk images on my DOS file server? I'm trying > to archive some of the DOS versions that are on my older machines. I'm I was recently pointed to a program called teledisk. It's dos-based and is capable of imaging basically anything a pc drive can physically read. I was able to use teledisk to make boot disks for my DECmate II from images stored at sunsite. If you're a windows user, and are imaging only dos disks, you might want to try a program called winimage. I've used this one quite extensively. It will image, format and copy some of the 'newer' formats such as MSes DMF disks. > thinking of that .exe format that IBM uses to produce bootable reference disks I think that winimage will do self-extracting... i've never used it though. > Kirk Scott > scottk5@ibm.net ttfn srw From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 20 08:30:25 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Boot disk images possible? In-Reply-To: <199801201243.MAA17226@out4.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980120093025.007d49a0@netpath.net> At 07:40 AM 1/20/98 -0600, you wrote: >I want to save, but would also like to back them up on the server. Can >anyone recommend anything that would be simple enough for a newbie like >me to use to do this? Search for a program called teledisk. This'll let you do what you want. E-mail me pvt if you want me to send it to you. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Tue Jan 20 11:05:08 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale In-Reply-To: <00f001bd25ae$0f9fa5a0$c527a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: That's all right. My apologies for over-reacting. I had a bad day and evening yesterday and should have just stayed away from my computers. Somebody posted an RTFM message to me the other day and I've been on a hair trigger since. Again, my apologies. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Cliff Gregory wrote: > I wasn't try to ruffle any feathers here, or undercut anyone's price. Your > post simply jogged my memory as to the availability of these kits. FWIW the > URL is: > > http://www.users.interport.net/~zebra/ts/ > > I was just there; it's still a live link. Kind of interesting browsing what > they have to offer. BTW, I'm not affiliated with the sellers in any way, > nor have I ever purchased from them. > > Cliff Gregory > cgregory@lrbcg.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Cgregory > Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 10:17 PM > Subject: Re: Sinclair Kit for Sale > > > > > >Yeah ok. I just report what I'm told. I'm not a salesman. I'm not an > >apologist. If you want to negotiate price with the guy contact him > >directly at squest@cris.com. I'm not making any money off them. I don't > >care if sells any. I don't care if anyone buys any. > > > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > > >> Seems to me these kits are still available from some distributor on the > net > >> for around $30. I'll see if I can dig up the exact URL. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >> To: Cgregory > >> Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 7:46 PM > >> Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> >A friend of mine has an original unbuilt Sinclair kit for sale at what > >> >looks like an interesting price. If you're interested, contact him > >> >directly at squest@cris.com and tell him Anthony Clifton - Wirehead sent > >> you. > >> > > >> >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > >> > > >> > > >> > > > From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jan 20 09:32:18 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ In-Reply-To: References: <1C1D123507E5@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199801201609.KAA25139@onyx.southwind.net> Guys: I have an Apple ][+ that needs a good home. I've never seen anything quite like this; every slot filled! I don't know it it works though; no boot floppies. Here's what's inside: Applied Engineering 16k Pocket Rocket (?) Asynchronous Serial Interface MountainComputer A/D+D/A PTM-1 Programmable timer module (with kludge of unknown function) Parallel Interface board ThunderClock Plus Disk ][ Interface Card (FDC) APL Board (with centronics cable attached) Included are a pair of Disk ][ drives, an Apple Joystick, and some misc cables dangling from the back. E-Mail me at: Jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com _or_ banzai@worldnet.att.net if interested. Will sell for a very reasonable price, plus shipping from Wichita, Kansas. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a lead on a PC-jr color CRT and a Chicklet-style keyboard (both real cheap). E-Mail if interested. Jeff "Banzai" kaneko From TOwad at aol.com Tue Jan 20 12:00:31 1998 From: TOwad at aol.com (T Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ Message-ID: <40e8a5c3.34c4e641@aol.com> Hi Jim, I'll give you $30 shipped. I'm in PA 17347. Sincerely, Tom >I have an Apple ][+ that needs a good home. I've never seen anything >quite like this; every slot filled! I don't know it it works though; >no boot floppies. Here's what's inside: > >Applied Engineering 16k Pocket Rocket (?) >Asynchronous Serial Interface >MountainComputer A/D+D/A >PTM-1 Programmable timer module (with kludge of unknown function) >Parallel Interface board >ThunderClock Plus >Disk ][ Interface Card (FDC) >APL Board (with centronics cable attached) > >Included are a pair of Disk ][ drives, an Apple Joystick, and some >misc cables dangling from the back. E-Mail me at: > > Jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com > > _or_ > > banzai@worldnet.att.net > >if interested. Will sell for a very reasonable price, plus shipping >from Wichita, Kansas. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 20 12:25:39 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale In-Reply-To: <9801200245.AA08278@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 19, 98 06:45:04 pm Message-ID: <9801201825.AA10319@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 916 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980120/c3da2748/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jan 20 12:29:02 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Portability (was: Firsts) In-Reply-To: Uncle Roger's message of Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:38:44 -0600 (CST) References: <3.0.16.19980119114600.526ffaf2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801201829.KAA07494@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > I can do better than that -- I've got a Zenith that makes the Kaypro look > pocket sized. *But* both fold up conveniently, and can be carried with one > hand. The IBM 5100 (and RS mIII, Commodore Pet, HP 85, etc.) is *not* > convenient to tote around on a regular basis. OK, you've mentioned the HP 85, so I'll write about it a bit. Was the 85 portable? That's a good question. HP apparently thought it could be pressed into service that way -- I remember the CEs bringing out a largish travel case containing an 85 with (at least) an HP-IB interface and some tapes that made it a diagnostic tool and exerciser for CS/80 disc drives. Of course, they also brought some other similarly sized travel cases full of 7933 kit and a hand truck to help move the lot from station wagon to computer room. But I didn't see that case come up to the computer room unless the CEs thought they were going to use it to deal with the problem at hand. Make of that what you will. I read it as: it's easily movable, but it's not convenient enough to be carried everywhere. I'm thinking that the 85 was designed at HP's Corvallis site. Were those responsible thinking of themselves as "Portable Computer Division" back then? -Frank McConnell From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 20 12:47:17 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: ID help (Commie, IBM, Nissho?) Message-ID: <650778c3.34c4f137@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-19 23:14:51 EST, you write: << >> Oh, they also had a few IBM PS/2 style monitors with a single RCA jack >> > What denotes a PS/2 "style" monitor ? I haven't heard this term >before and have several P/S2 s. The RCA jack would suggest a >composite monitor. It's the kind of case; the PS/2 style is rather different from the old 5150 style. what was the model number? first generation ps/2 machines were 85xx. second generation ps2 models were 95xx, known as the premium line. david From spc at armigeron.com Tue Jan 20 14:01:49 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Someone told me.... In-Reply-To: <199801201405.IAA09568@sunflower.com> from "Bill Girnius" at Jan 20, 98 08:12:20 am Message-ID: <199801202001.PAA04333@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Girnius once stated: > > That the PCjr had some demo tutorial type programs in rom. Is this true? > anyone know how to get to them, or have I been misinformed? > I wouldn't call it a demo or a tutorial, more like a diagnostic program, but with cute graphics. Available by pressing Ctrl-Alt-Ins. -spc (Especially the keyboard diagnostic ... ) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 20 15:07:16 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: USMO rip-off Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980120150716.473f57fa@intellistar.net> Who was the joker that posted the message a week or so ago stating that usmo.com had good prices? I checked thir website and found a couple of printers for the HP 41 calculator, so I E-mailed and asked their price. They didn't knopw what they were, I had to send them the URL. Then they wrote back wanting $650 for them!!!!! That's more than double HP's original price and at least 15 times the maximum price now. usmo is a rip off and a waste of time! Joe >Return-Path: >From: "c" >To: "Joe" >Subject: Re: more prices >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:36:17 -0000 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 > >Those printers we currenlty are asking $650 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: c >Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 1:31 PM >Subject: Re: more prices > > >>They're at "http://www.usmo.com/~kseeker/webdoc3.htm". They're listed as >>Thermal Printers. >> >> Joe >> >> >>At 09:36 PM 1/18/98 -0000, you wrote: >>>Where did you see these, at what link, I do not recall these part numbers. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Joe >>>To: kseeker@usmo.com >>>Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 1:46 AM >>>Subject: more prices >>> >>> >>>>I'm interested in the HP 82161 and 82162 printers advertised on your >>>>website. Tell me what you want for them and their condition. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 20 15:43:17 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801200247.SAA07602@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <13325803209.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Wise guy.. Now watch IE and Netscrape choke on the fake tag... :) ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 20 15:44:21 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980118095729.006abef4@netpath.net> Message-ID: <13325803402.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Linux has a termcap for the TRS-80 Mod. 100. I think it trs80 or trs-80 ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 20 15:54:15 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801200544.AAA05144@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <13325805205.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> What's TOPS-20? (Time to demonstrate my ignorance...) TOPS-20 came after TOPS-20. It means Total OPerating System. It runs on DEC-10s, and on XKL's TD-1. It has all sortsa nice things, batch queues and ARPAnet stuff... It has compilers/interpreters for more languages that you can count, and it's as close to an ITS box as I can get. XKLeTen runs it, and so does Toad. I'm not sure if the TD-1 can run other operating systems... It's a neat trick. If even lets you do stuff *BEFORE* you log on, like if you telnet to toad and say SYSTAT, it'll sho you who's on, and what they're doing, without caring who/what you are... It's fun. It's 36-bits, older than I am, and I don't know **** about it, so I still have stuff to learn. And no, I haven't crashed it yet screwing around. If you mail whomeveritwas(xkleten-admin?)@paulallen.com, you can get a TOPS-20 account on his TD-1. Than you cn see it for yourself. ------- From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jan 20 16:20:48 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <13325803402.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Linux has a termcap for the TRS-80 Mod. 100. > I think it trs80 or trs-80 Not anymore. Although an altavista search of '+UFO +termcap -aminet' turned up a link to the UFO file (Unidentified Feeping Objects) which has two entries for the m100. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 20 12:02:57 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <34C43F5F.66F1264B@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199801202258.RAA12036@mail.cgocable.net> > jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > > > > > SO what? I read my messages from TOPS-20. > > > > Beat that. First, what's your modem speed when you did that? > Grab a copy of the Jargon file from the net (maintained by my > co-conspirator (nothing to do with computers -- it's political) > Eric S. Raymond (crap, gimme a minute, > . ESR started out in the Snap! > Ward Griffiths > Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? > WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. > Ward, thanks for the pointer, I'm enjoying reading that website and found many words that i've heard and used myself. Interesting. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 20 17:23:16 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts In-Reply-To: <199801202258.RAA12036@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <13325821408.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, I have hit toad from home with my LA-120 attached to a Hayes 1200 modem, but usually, I telnet to it from the, well, ahem, T-1 at work. ------- From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 20 18:28:52 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Portability (was: Firsts) In-Reply-To: <199801201829.KAA07494@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 20 Jan 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > I'm thinking that the 85 was designed at HP's Corvallis site. Were > those responsible thinking of themselves as "Portable Computer > Division" back then? I can probably find out. My friend's dad works there (and worked there at the time) and my friend tells me they had an HP-85 at home that they used to play Munch Man on. So perhaps he knows something about it although I know he didn't work in the computer division but in the calculator division. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 20 19:49:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Portability (was: Firsts) In-Reply-To: <199801201829.KAA07494@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.16.19980119114600.526ffaf2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980120194901.2eb70b1c@intellistar.net> At 10:29 AM 1/20/98 -0800, you wrote: >Uncle Roger wrote: >> I can do better than that -- I've got a Zenith that makes the Kaypro look >> pocket sized. *But* both fold up conveniently, and can be carried with one >> hand. The IBM 5100 (and RS mIII, Commodore Pet, HP 85, etc.) is *not* >> convenient to tote around on a regular basis. > >OK, you've mentioned the HP 85, so I'll write about it a bit. > >Was the 85 portable? That's a good question. HP apparently thought >it could be pressed into service that way -- I remember the CEs >bringing out a largish travel case containing an 85 with (at least) an >HP-IB interface and some tapes that made it a diagnostic tool and >exerciser for CS/80 disc drives. Of course, they also brought some >other similarly sized travel cases full of 7933 kit and a hand truck >to help move the lot from station wagon to computer room. > >But I didn't see that case come up to the computer room unless the CEs >thought they were going to use it to deal with the problem at hand. >Make of that what you will. I read it as: it's easily movable, but >it's not convenient enough to be carried everywhere. > >I'm thinking that the 85 was designed at HP's Corvallis site. Were >those responsible thinking of themselves as "Portable Computer >Division" back then? Frank, I think the HP 85s were all built in Ft. Collins, Co. A lot of the hand held calculators were built at Corvallis but I don't think they ever built 8x machines. Joe > >-Frank McConnell > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jan 20 19:11:23 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <9801200552.AA08035@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.3.32.19980119213114.006baa34@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980120191123.006ba4e0@pop3.concentric.net> I already packed them alway in storage but I believe they did not have any LED's. - John At 09:52 PM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote: >> 2 SUN spreakerboxs' for $5 each this place has about 50 of them >> for sale > >Are these the ones before or after they added the little LED's that >let the user know when someone is listening to /dev/microphone? > >The pre-LED units were fun. With some well-known security holes in >Solaris, it was like having spies everywhere! > >Tim. > > From william at ans.net Tue Jan 20 20:34:36 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available Message-ID: Many of you may remember a small haul of Digital PDP-8/e minicomputers that Jim Willing had sniffed out. Well, things have changed a bit... It turns out there are _five_ systems in six racks (one processor may have missing parts), with all sorts of extra stuff (EAE, RX02s, expansion boxes, boatloads of core, etc.). Jim is getting one system, and I am getting another, still another is probably spoken for, but rest are up for grabs. The price? $200 gets you as much of a system as you want - CPU only, or an entire rack. In addition, Jim and I will need some help moving the stuff (located in Charleston, West Virginia), mostly in the money department. I may need to drive down to get the stuff in a rental truck (we take it all, or we take none, thus we will need a truck) next week, or, as a back up plan, Jim will look into shipping the stuff with a freight company. To be fair, I must warn anyone that their share of initial shipping (getting them to one of my storage locations) may be over $50. I can store the stuff, either in Easton, PA (#2 storage locker), Providence, RI (RCS/RI), or perhaps the new house just above New York City. I will be packing and shipping Jim's stuff (he does not need a rack, he says), and could probably do the same for any other parties. PDP-8/e CPUs weigh about 90 pounds. I have lots of experience packing 90 pound boxes for cross country trips (90 pound HFDF receivers, not one even scratched). I would need shipping money and perhaps something for my efforts, but not much. In other words, I can make deracked PDP-8/es available to just about anyone in the U.S.. Anyway, do we have any interested parties? Remember, PDP-8s are not that common anymore, especially ones with EAE (extended arithmetic element)! Also, would anyone want to put in some time actually helping me unload (they will help load)? A full system might weigh 500 pounds, and I really do not look forward to unloading them by myself! Please let me know as soon as possible, as the clock is ticking. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 20 20:49:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Sinclair Kit for Sale References: <9801201825.AA10319@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <34C56237.389CC481@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Interestingly enough, it describes the ZX80 as quite rare compared > to the ZX81. It seemed to me that there were lots of ZX80's kicking around > in the early 80's... Problem is, that little wedge chassis made the ZX-80 a _perfect_ doorstop, unlike these other things that scratch the linoleum. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 20 19:18:55 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: MFM drives Message-ID: <7662be5d.34c54d01@aol.com> as I was going through my parts today, i decided to test some 5 old mfm controller cards I was given by someone at work. it turns out that 5 mfm hard drives i have have gone "bad" again (they worked previously), and all 5 controller cards have failed. it seems the only drive combination i have that works is a kalok drive, and a full size adaptec controller card that came in the 286 im testing all these in. over the past year, i betcha i've bought and thrown away almost 40 bad controller cards! the drives i know worked before, so i can just call debug and low level them again. ive already tried cabling combinations, jumper and bios settings, swapping known good parts out, and so forth. has anyone else had a fantastic failure rate with mfm controller cards? seems like i have better luck with reviving hard drives. incidentally, would anyone know what the proper jumper settings would be for an 8bit mfm controller card? one is a WD1002-27X and the other is a WD1002A-WX1. they are similar in appearance, but minor changes in chip layout and jumper settings. both these cards won't init a good hard drive. david From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 20 21:01:05 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts References: <13325803402.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <34C564F1.13E4980E@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Linux has a termcap for the TRS-80 Mod. 100. > I think it trs80 or trs-80 > ------- Not on my Caldera distribution. Terminfo either. Not hard to edit the vt52 entry though, that's what I did when the 100 first came out before Xenix directly supported it -- and I emailed the entry I'd made to Fort Worth but never compared it to the official release. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Tue Jan 20 22:40:52 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Firsts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980121154051.00817270@isd.canberra.edu.au> At 22:01 20/01/98 -0500, Ward Griffiths wrote: >Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >> >> Linux has a termcap for the TRS-80 Mod. 100. >> I think it trs80 or trs-80 >> ------- > >Not on my Caldera distribution. Terminfo either. Not hard to edit >the vt52 entry though, that's what I did when the 100 first came out >before Xenix directly supported it -- and I emailed the entry I'd >made to Fort Worth but never compared it to the official release. Here's the Model 100 entry from my termcap (on a SunOS 4.1.3 machine): zn|trs100|Radio Shack Model 100:\ :am:bs:le=^H:li#8:co#40:ku=^^:kd=^_:kl=^]:kr=^\:up=\EA:\ :nd=\EC:ho=\EH:ce=\EK:cd=\EJ:cl=\EE:xt:cm=\EY%+ %+ :\ :so=\Ep:se=\Eq:al=\EL:dl=\EM: Hope that helps. Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads| |Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | | University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| | scott@isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 20 17:54:30 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: MFM drives In-Reply-To: <7662be5d.34c54d01@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801210449.XAA28995@mail.cgocable.net> BIG SNIP! > > david > David, Kolak hd is not that great but if that is only that works with those controllers you had, I'm surprised. BUT, you do NEED to low level format not as assumed as you have with any hds to marry each pair together because different controller cards aren't equal. This is especially a must with either MFM, RLL and sometimes needed with ESDI drives. Different scsi controllers resolves differently by c/h/s presented to OSes which requires fdisk and high-level format, low level format is not required. Ditto to IDE drives if the c/h/s is not same as original specs when formatted or less than max capacity of that IDE. For XT controllers: Start the controller's built in bios with a debug and a g=yyyy:x where yyyy is bios memory address and x is offset, usually 5, 6, or 8. If you're using it in 16bit ISA slot, leave the BIOS hd entry disabled or type 0. Some are so dumb that requires manual to set the jumpers for different hd's, some are user-defineable in either hex (!!) or decimal. Very few early xt controllers fail to boot up in some computers. Once or twice have happened. Not fun to resolve that, had to do weird wizardy chants and bend backwards to make it work! :) For AT controllers, it's 16bit and has no bios at all, set by the BIOS hd specs either the type # or the user-defineable spec then use either software to low level format it or if BIOS supports one, use it. Watch that any MFM or RLL controllers supported max interlave is set to it's specs maybe one or two higher because most slow computer still can't keep up with processing all those transfers but funny thing, it did sped things up sometimes like that. Then finish it with fdisk then format. That SHOULD work with any hd's you can find. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Jan 20 23:22:30 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34d28592.341829414@hoser> Do these have front panels with lights and switches? We've been interested in getting one to play with, but a collector's web page I saw seemed to indicate there were versions of the PDP-8/e without operators panels as well. What all would be required to make a "complete" system? (And what are the power requirements? So far, my biggest machine is the IMSAI 8080 I built years ago...) On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:34:36 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Many of you may remember a small haul of Digital PDP-8/e minicomputers >that Jim Willing had sniffed out. Well, things have changed a bit... > >It turns out there are _five_ systems in six racks (one processor may have >missing parts), with all sorts of extra stuff (EAE, RX02s, expansion >boxes, boatloads of core, etc.). Jim is getting one system, and I am >getting another, still another is probably spoken for, but rest are up for >grabs. > >The price? > >$200 gets you as much of a system as you want - CPU only, or an entire >rack. In addition, Jim and I will need some help moving the stuff (located >in Charleston, West Virginia), mostly in the money department. I may need >to drive down to get the stuff in a rental truck (we take it all, or we >take none, thus we will need a truck) next week, or, as a back up plan, >Jim will look into shipping the stuff with a freight company. To be fair, >I must warn anyone that their share of initial shipping (getting them to >one of my storage locations) may be over $50. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 20 23:27:42 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: MFM drives In-Reply-To: <7662be5d.34c54d01@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > as I was going through my parts today, i decided to test some 5 old mfm > controller cards I was given by someone at work. it turns out that 5 mfm hard > drives i have have gone "bad" again (they worked previously), and all 5 > controller cards have failed. it seems the only drive combination i have that > works is a kalok drive, and a full size adaptec controller card that came in > the 286 im testing all these in. over the past year, i betcha i've bought and > thrown away almost 40 bad controller cards! the drives i know worked before, > so i can just call debug and low level them again. ive already tried cabling > combinations, jumper and bios settings, swapping known good parts out, and so > forth. has anyone else had a fantastic failure rate with mfm controller cards? > seems like i have better luck with reviving hard drives. incidentally, would > anyone know what the proper jumper settings would be for an 8bit mfm > controller card? one is a WD1002-27X and the other is a WD1002A-WX1. they are > similar in appearance, but minor changes in chip layout and jumper settings. > both these cards won't init a good hard drive. > Coming to you by private e-mail, David. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From engine at chac.org Wed Jan 21 00:26:33 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: MFM drives Message-ID: <01bd2635$849f5a80$2417a2cd@croskan.vip.best.com> >From: SUPRDAVE >Subject: MFM drives >has anyone else had a fantastic failure rate with mfm controller cards? >seems like i have better luck with reviving hard drives.... For "fantastic" substitute "legendary." During my years as a support tech (roughly 1986 to 1994) it was an article of faith in my firm that a "bad disk" was a failed controller about two times out of three. This could be difficult to explain to end-users, who generally knew what a hard disk was, but rarely what a controller was, or even that they owned one. It was also entertaining telling an end-user that, once they had a new controller, they'd have to low-level the -- kc From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 21 00:24:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Cleaning TK-50 Drives Message-ID: I've got some TK-50 drives that I want to use a couple of in my MicroVAX II, they are all filthy, with big dustbunnies crawling out of them. I've picked up some of the proper foam swabs for cleaning tape drives, and a bottle of "Radio Shack Professional Tape Head Cleaner Fluid". I took the worst one tonite and striped it down, gave it a good cleaning, blew it out good, got it nice and spick and span. I've got it put back together now, and it _looks_ great. My question is, was this a good idea? I started thinking about this when I went and put the thing that looks like it has two magnets back in from of the tape drive head. By taking this apart like that have I messed up the drive alignment or anything? Are there any particular gottcha's that I need to be aware of. I'm already aware of how the tape leader needs to be attached and what to do if it gets sucked into a drive (had a tech show me on a DLT4000 drive a few months ago). Of course my plan is to install it tomorrow night, and give it a try. It's called I really want to get a good backup of this machine prior to starting to play with it (I know nothing about VMS, but have the System Manager, and User's manuals). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From bmpete at swbell.net Wed Jan 21 02:06:01 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: MFM drives In-Reply-To: <7662be5d.34c54d01@aol.com> References: <7662be5d.34c54d01@aol.com> Message-ID: <34c7aabb.2090500@mail.swbell.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:18:55 EST, you said: >Ive already tried cabling >combinations, jumper and bios settings, swapping known good parts out, and so >forth. has anyone else had a fantastic failure rate with mfm controller cards? >seems like i have better luck with reviving hard drives. incidentally, would >anyone know what the proper jumper settings would be for an 8bit mfm >controller card? one is a WD1002-27X and the other is a WD1002A-WX1. they are >similar in appearance, but minor changes in chip layout and jumper settings. >both these cards won't init a good hard drive. My two favorite tools for HD work are the "On-Track Disk Manager program V 5", and "Hard Drive Test Specs" program. DM lets you test, LL format, create, and prep partitions. HDTS shows jumpers and specs for controllers and drives, if you don't have the info you need, email me and I'll get it. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 21 07:54:26 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13325980000.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Ahh, that sucks! My parents have control of my money again, so I'd never get away with spending $50 on old computers... (They're trying to discourage me from playing with computers, and being about as subtle as a jackhammer...) I may be able to get someone to spring for one, and let me pay them back later... Can you let me know what the final cost to get one shipped to Illinois would be? I'm interested, if it's not too high... (Personally, I'd blow maybe $75 on it, but once my parents figured it out it'd be meeting the trashcan in a hurry. But if I tell them I got it free, they may not care. My parents (Esp. my stepdad) have a thing for tossing whatever I have that they don't like [Like my copy of Sailor Moon manga #13]) I'm too far away to help with unloading and such, sorry... ------- From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Wed Jan 21 10:45:58 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: <13325980000.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: > Ahh, that sucks! My parents have control of my money again, so I'd never get away with spending > $50 on old computers... (They're trying to discourage me from playing with > computers, and being about as subtle as a jackhammer...) I'll leave this public since it might be useful to someone...I'm 29 now but when I was 16 or 17 my parents expended GREAT energy trying to get me to stop playing with computers because my dad thought they were a FAD (hahahahahahahahahahaa) and my mom thought it was unhealthy for me to hide in the basement all the time like some brain-damaged monster. Tell your parents that today I have a college degree, have been out on my own working productively since I was 20 (with VERY little external support), earn twice the median income in my state, started a successful business, own my own home, am married and honoring my parents by living an upstanding and productive life. Playing with computers all those years created that for me. And playing with OLD computers made me self-reliant enough that in the last 9 years I've been unemployed a total of about a week. My parents realize their mistake now...my father tearfully gave me his gold retirement watch, which I accepted reluctantly, to show how proud he is of me. My parents are happy with me and I'm happy with myself all thanks to my tinkering all those years in the basement. > it'd be meeting the trashcan in a hurry. But if I tell them I got it free, > they may not care. My parents (Esp. my stepdad) have a thing for tossing > whatever I have that they don't like [Like my copy of Sailor Moon manga #13]) My brother tossed out a perfectly good 11/34a, some RL02s, a DecWriter and a Franklin Ace 1200 from my parents' basement because he wanted a weight room and my stuff was in the way. Pretty self-righteous of him considering *I'M* not the one who's 42 and still living WITH mom and dad! BUT I'M NOT BITTER!!! =-D (Isn't it odd that if you get it free, they'll let you keep but if you spent money on it they want to throw it away?) When I was 18 I waited until my folks were gone to move an 11/23 and two RL02s downstairs to my bedroom. I made sure it was all racked up before they got home...so it'd look too big and heavy for them to carry outside. =-) I LOVED that machine! I put it behind the door sort of...so that you could only open the door about 18"...kept my mom out of my room. =) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jan 21 10:25:43 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available-another story. Message-ID: <199801211619.KAA01497@sunflower.com> I'm 30 now, started playing with a Bell+howell apple][ in junior high school. Bought my first computer, a Timex Sinclair 1500 in 82, my freshman year in H.S. Everyone thought I was a big weenie and I was never socially accepted. in 85 I finally got an XT, I wanted an Apple][ but they were going by the wayside so I decided to get the XT scrictly based on software availability. I was a manager at Pizza Hut, things were looking grim for my future, I couldn't afford to go to college and was married. Then I got sick of all this and joined the Coast Guard, went to MST School in Virginia for the Coast Guard, 30% of MST's are system managers of some sort. I thought I might get lucky, I did, I scored a 99% on the computer section of the course and was made System Administrator of the 4th floor of Coast Guard Headquarters in Washington DC. I then got out of after my tour, I now collect older systems as a hobby, im way past 40 systems now, I have no idea how many I have, my new wife , hehe, another long story, tolerates it, and Im a network engineer for the Dept of Labor. I owe all this to Sir Clive Sinclair and my mom for encouraging my interest. I make about 43k a year, own my own home, not too bad for 30 and not a day in college. Good luck, and don't give up. Bill Girnius ---------- > From: Wirehead Prime > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PDP-8/Es available > Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 10:45 AM > > > > > Ahh, that sucks! My parents have control of my money again, so I'd never get away with spending > > $50 on old computers... (They're trying to discourage me from playing with > > computers, and being about as subtle as a jackhammer...) > > I'll leave this public since it might be useful to someone...I'm 29 now > but when I was 16 or 17 my parents expended GREAT energy trying to get me > to stop playing with computers because my dad thought they were a FAD > (hahahahahahahahahahaa) and my mom thought it was unhealthy for me to > hide in the basement all the time like some brain-damaged monster. > > Tell your parents that today I have a college degree, have been out on my > own working productively since I was 20 (with VERY little external > support), earn twice the median income in my state, started a successful > business, own my own home, am married and honoring my parents by living > an upstanding and productive life. Playing with computers all those > years created that for me. And playing with OLD computers made me > self-reliant enough that in the last 9 years I've been unemployed a total > of about a week. > > My parents realize their mistake now...my father tearfully gave me his > gold retirement watch, which I accepted reluctantly, to show how proud > he is of me. My parents are happy with me and I'm happy with myself all > thanks to my tinkering all those years in the basement. > > > it'd be meeting the trashcan in a hurry. But if I tell them I got it free, > > they may not care. My parents (Esp. my stepdad) have a thing for tossing > > whatever I have that they don't like [Like my copy of Sailor Moon manga #13]) > > My brother tossed out a perfectly good 11/34a, some RL02s, a DecWriter > and a Franklin Ace 1200 from my parents' basement because he wanted a > weight room and my stuff was in the way. Pretty self-righteous of him > considering *I'M* not the one who's 42 and still living WITH mom and dad! > > BUT I'M NOT BITTER!!! =-D > > (Isn't it odd that if you get it free, they'll let you keep but if you > spent money on it they want to throw it away?) > > When I was 18 I waited until my folks were gone to move an 11/23 and two > RL02s downstairs to my bedroom. I made sure it was all racked up before > they got home...so it'd look too big and heavy for them to carry outside. > =-) I LOVED that machine! I put it behind the door sort of...so that > you could only open the door about 18"...kept my mom out of my room. =) > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From ZGE at aol.com Wed Jan 21 09:50:10 1998 From: ZGE at aol.com (ZGE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: info Message-ID: <1cd5196c.34c61934@aol.com> Does anyone remember seeing adds in popular electronics back during the 1970's about the NRI computer . A few examples were on page 37 of the 3\77 issue , .page 15 , 11\76 page 11 , 2\76 . thanks, zge@aol.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 21 12:42:48 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13326032494.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Umm, that wasn't supposed to go to the list... You all can ignore it... (Ahh, haven't I pulled this one before?) ------- From william at ans.net Wed Jan 21 13:15:19 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: <13325980000.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: In order to straighten some confusion out... Jim and I will need help (mostly in the money and muscle department) just to get the things out of Charleston, WV. It very well could come to $50 (or more) a head, just to pay for the truck/gas/etc.! Once the things are in my storage area, there will be another shipping bill to get the goods to their final destination (like California). I do not think I will have the time or resources to ship stuff directly from Charleston to buyers. William Donzelli william@ans.net From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 21 15:38:40 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: I now have a PDP-11/40 printset. Message-ID: <13326064511.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> This should make for some interesting reading... I just says "PDP-11/40 system engineering drawings". The dates on the schematics inside say 09/22/72. Oh! This also includes the terminal? I guess this IS the "system" schematic... I was told that when you bought a PDP-10 that DEC included the operator's chair... and that the schematics for it came in the printset. I wonder what the part number would be for a PDP-10 console chair... Is this bull? Did they REALLY include the chair? ------- From glm at afweb.com Wed Jan 21 19:45:54 1998 From: glm at afweb.com (Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: LNW Research computer Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980121184554.00695a84@afweb.com> A friend gave me your e-mail address. If you are the person that had the LNW computer parts and manuals for sale, please send e-mail to glm@afweb.com. I have one and the expansion board is defective. I need schematics to fix it. Thanks a bunch if you can help. Gary From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 21 20:53:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: DEC tapes Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980121205350.21f71de4@intellistar.net> Hi, I found some more DEC stuff. A bunch of tapes this time. Can anyone tell me what these are for and if they're usefull as they are or should I just use them as scratch tapes for another system. These are original DEC tapes with DEC software. HSC SOFTWARE V3.9 SYS TU58 HSC SOFTWARE V3.9A UTL TU58 HSC SOFTWARE V4.0 UTL TU58 HSC SOFTWARE V4.0 SYS TU58 HSC SOFTWARE V4.1 UTL TU58 HSC SOFTWARE V4.1 SYS TU58 MATNET TIU May 9,1983 MATNET SIMP VER 6.2:6 APRIL 8, 1983 BLANK TU58 (Is this just a blank tape?) Here's a strange one. It appears to be a diagnostics tape but I don't know what system it's for. Can anyone identify it? one tape marked: “C/30 imp+diag 64K” PN 4604263G01 10 64IMP 100 CCT4 300 MEMTEST 400 NIMPTS 500 NIMP4H 600 MTI-UTEST 610 MTI-MTEST 620 MTI-HTEST Thanks, Joe From SjsPeak at aol.com Wed Jan 21 21:20:58 1998 From: SjsPeak at aol.com (SjsPeak) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:23 2005 Subject: Kaypro's Available Message-ID: <4b346c9d.34c6bb22@aol.com> I'm looking for a Kaypro II. Can you help? From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jan 21 23:10:43 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: How does microcode work?? In-Reply-To: References: <0e1b44654130818UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980122161043.00abdaf0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:52 AM 1/9/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >There have been many books written on microcoding and related subjects, >and to try to sumarise them here would be rather difficult. The books >that I seem to like on this include 'Microprogrammed System Design' >(Florentin), 'Bit-Slice Mircoprocessor Design'(Mick & Brick), and the >technical manuals for some of the PDP11's (the PDP11/45 one is what >taught me microcoding) and the PERQs. There are plenty of others. The AMD >2900 series databook is worth reading if you can find it. I used to teach a course that used Microprogramming Primer by Harry Katzan, Jr published by McGraw-Hill. My copy is now somewhat dog-eared and the pages are yellow.... It's a nice mid-70s view of computer architecture :-) >It's not necessarily ROM. Some machines had so-called writeable control >stores (WCS) which allow the user to rewrite the system microcode. It was a nice (but expensive) option on the VAX-11/780 series. The manuals for that are sitting in my office somewhere - yep, up there near the Bliss-32 manuals! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jan 21 23:12:37 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61] In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980108180834.3c574a92@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980122161237.009a7e30@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 08:12 PM 1/8/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >A IIcx for C$25 isn't that bad, assuming it has a decent size hard drive >(80mb+) and some ram (4mb+). Sigh. I paid about $10K for my IIcx with 200Mb disk, 8Mb memory, A3 monitor and A/UX all those years ago. It's still at home and I turn it on from time to time to remind myself that the 300MHz Alpha next to it is fast :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Thu Jan 22 01:07:12 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: References: <13325980000.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >I'll leave this public since it might be useful to someone...I'm 29 now >but when I was 16 or 17 my parents expended GREAT energy trying to get me >to stop playing with computers because my dad thought they were a FAD >(hahahahahahahahahahaa) and my mom thought it was unhealthy for me to >hide in the basement all the time like some brain-damaged monster. Well, I AM 17, and I'm up to 30 computers or so... Let me see if I can remember them all, my web site is a partial listing. Apple IIe(free) Apple IIgs(free) Epson PX-8(free) Mac 512K($15) Mac 512K(made from parts I got for free) Mac 128K(under repair, free from same person as PX-8) Mac PowerBook Duo 270c($1000, actually my moms computer but I use it) Mac IIvx(fun machine, 12/80/CD config, Radius Pivot monitor, got it on clearance when Apple stopped making the IIvx) PowerMac 6500/250(got it in July 97, MacOS 8 and 15AV monitor bundled for $8 for MacOS 8 debut, 48/3.7GB config) Mac SE($1, 4/80 config, originally 4/20 but 20meg MiniScribe died loudly) IBM 5150(free640k/20MB) IBM 5160(free, 640k/30MB) Leading Edge DC-2010E(free, 8088 clone, 640k/30MB) Zenith SupersPort 286 laptop($20, 640k/20MB) IBM Series/1 minicomputer(free, HUGE, I'm guessing a half ton, some people say it was probably more) 4956-K00 CPU 4959 I/O expansion 4964 8" floppy drive 4967 200MB HD 4968 70MB tape drive 4978 Display Station(got two of them) BIG pile of manuals TI-99/4A(It's been around here forever, before I even knew what a computer was) Apollo DN3500(free, traded in my Cambridge Computing Z88 for 3500 & spare for parts) IBM PS/2 Model 30-286(free, ISA, 1/20) IBM PS/2 Model 50Z(free, 80286, MCA, 2/60, I think. I also have two spare CPU's with no RAM/HD/FD) IBM PS/2 Model 55sx(free, 80386, MCA also 2/60) IBM PS/2 Model 80($50, 80386/FPU, MCA, 2/70 Apple DuoDock(goes with Duo 270c) Intel Microcomputer 386(free, has problems, Y2K bug in BIOS, Intel should stick to chips and let others make the computers) Compaq Deskpro 386s(free, 5/40) And printers, too! HP DeskWriter 680c(clearance at Computer City, I'd rather have a 560c) Apple StyleWriter II(got it new with Mac IIvx) Apple LaserWriter Plus(free, upgraded from original LW) IBM 4019 LaserPrinter(free, broken power supply) Panasonic KX-P1000(I think it was free, I don't remember) Some wierd Seikosha printer with interface for TI-99/4A(I don't remember anything about it) I know there is something missing... I just can't remember what. Well, that fills up the basement... And my parents aren't too happy about it. Especially with the Series/1, that drives them crazy. It drives me crazy too :-) It's going to take a while to get it running. Basically, I try to grab any computer that is free(or cheap). That's what led me to the above list... As for getting a job, I'm hoping for something in the electronics/computer industry... I might even try to start my own computer repair shop(mainly dealing with old computers, of course). Right now I'm busy volunteering in the computer lab at OMSI, and I'm going to start volunteering on the USS Blueback, which is parked on the Willamette River right outside OMSI... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From cgregory at lrbcg.com Thu Jan 22 06:31:42 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Kaypro Question Message-ID: <007001bd2739$d4b82920$c627a2ce@cliffgre> Could someone (briefly) describe the differences between a Kaypro II and a Kayro 2 (2X ?) Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jan 22 07:59:39 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: I don't think these are RX02s... Message-ID: <13326243094.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> These are some 8" disks which I was told are RX02 disks, but they aren't. I can't read them. And some of the labels sound funny... Z80 ASSEMBLER MANUAL Z80 INTERPRETER MANUAL PART 1 OF CDC PASCAL MANUAL PART 2 OF CDC PASCAL MANUAL WPS/78 V3.4 (No communications) WPS/78 V3.1F One labled "SA100 DISKETTE" WPS-v3 WPS SYSTEM< Anyone know what these are? ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 22 10:44:31 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: I don't think these are RX02s... In-Reply-To: <13326243094.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jan 22, 98 05:59:39 am Message-ID: <9801221644.AA14389@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1490 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980122/906a7bae/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 22 10:49:13 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: DEC tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980121205350.21f71de4@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 21, 98 08:53:50 pm Message-ID: <9801221649.AA14289@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1416 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980122/a536b32f/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jan 22 11:29:57 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: I don't think these are RX02s... In-Reply-To: <9801221644.AA14389@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13326281377.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Or, I could just image them, and kermit them to my PC. I'm right next to the 23+, in fact, about 12-13" away. It's attached to this PC. I've been trying to get Fuzzball built right. I'll go image the system disk, and see what the pdp-8 emulator does with it... ------- From weese at mind.net Thu Jan 22 11:53:15 1998 From: weese at mind.net (Lynn & Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: LNW Research computer Message-ID: <199801221755.JAA09882@one.mind.net> Gary: You have posted to a discussion group. Your friend meant to give you my personal e-mail address (weese@mind.net), I think. (I believe you are writing to me, as I haven't seen LNW stuff mentioned in the last month by anybody else on this group.) I'll write this both to the group, to clarify, & to you personally. ---mikey ---------- > From: Gary > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: LNW Research computer > Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 5:45 PM > > A friend gave me your e-mail address. If you are the person that had the > LNW computer parts and manuals for sale, please send e-mail to > glm@afweb.com. I have one and the expansion board is defective. I need > schematics to fix it. Thanks a bunch if you can help. > > Gary > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Jan 22 07:59:31 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: MFM drives In-Reply-To: <34c7aabb.2090500@mail.swbell.net> References: <7662be5d.34c54d01@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801221854.NAA08898@mail.cgocable.net> > On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:18:55 EST, you said: > > >Ive already tried cabling > >combinations, jumper and bios settings, swapping known good parts out, and so > >forth. has anyone else had a fantastic failure rate with mfm controller cards? > >seems like i have better luck with reviving hard drives. incidentally, would > >anyone know what the proper jumper settings would be for an 8bit mfm > >controller card? one is a WD1002-27X and the other is a WD1002A-WX1. they are > >similar in appearance, but minor changes in chip layout and jumper settings. > >both these cards won't init a good hard drive. > > My two favorite tools for HD work are the "On-Track Disk Manager > program V 5", and "Hard Drive Test Specs" program. DM lets you test, > LL format, create, and prep partitions. > HDTS shows jumpers and specs for controllers and drives, if you don't > have the info you need, email me and I'll get it. Hey, did you steal those "dm/m" program from me?! :) heh, just kidding. That's what I use for this work. But HD test program to sniff out hd? I'm frowning on it...use the deadwood or website for correct specs, sometimes hd's lied to me. Well, where do you get this HDTS only especially those jumper/specs? I'm trying to find enough info as is... Jason D. _______________ > > Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net > Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, > Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jan 22 13:20:07 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Does anyone else here have a Fuzzball running? Message-ID: <13326301433.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I can't make Fuzzball start. It dies. You just load it like a normal RT-11 executable, right? I made a bos1.sav for my configuration, and when I start it, it halts at 2434. Is that a special address or something? I'm trying to load it on the 23+ at school. I have an 11/23+, MSCP, RX02s, 2Megabytes of RAM, and a DLV-11J. ------- From TOwad at aol.com Thu Jan 22 13:46:54 1998 From: TOwad at aol.com (T Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Macs Pluses Message-ID: <4738ed75.34c7a231@aol.com> Hi Joe, Haven't heard from you. Did you ever find any Macs other than Pluses? Were you able to get system software? LMK. Sincerely, Tom From donm at cts.com Thu Jan 22 14:13:51 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: I don't think these are RX02s... In-Reply-To: <13326243094.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > These are some 8" disks which I was told are RX02 disks, but they aren't. > I can't read them. And some of the labels sound funny... > > Z80 ASSEMBLER MANUAL > Z80 INTERPRETER MANUAL The Z80 disks could be from all sorts of machines, depending upon format. > PART 1 OF CDC PASCAL MANUAL > PART 2 OF CDC PASCAL MANUAL These above, MIGHT be for the CDC Viking which was used as a stand alone and a smart terminal for the PLATO system. > WPS/78 V3.4 (No communications) > WPS/78 V3.1F > One labled "SA100 DISKETTE" This is a Shugart analog alignment disk. Requires a scope to use. > WPS-v3 WPS SYSTEM< > > Anyone know what these are? > ------- > - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 22 15:28:08 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: DEC tapes & 24,000 lbs of old computers In-Reply-To: <9801221649.AA14289@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.1.16.19980121205350.21f71de4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980122152808.48c7677e@intellistar.net> At 08:49 AM 1/22/98 -0800, you wrote: > >> MATNET TIU May 9,1983 >> MATNET SIMP VER 6.2:6 APRIL 8, 1983 > >I don't recognize "MATNET". Do these have DEC licensing information >on them or do they indicate they're by some other company? > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > Thanks, The MATNET stuff is on original DEC tapes but the labels are typed stick on labels not DEC labels. BTW I found a HUGE pile of computer stuff today at a NASA auction. >>>>> 24,000 pounds <<<<<< of old computers including HP 2250, somebodies system 32/2750, Vax 631, DEC RA 60(s), PDP 11/84, VAX 6310, Honeywell Level 6 and lots more! No PCs in this lot, it's all mainframe computer stuff. Most of it is in dumpsters and some of it looks fine, other parts looks like they were opened with an axe! If anyone knows what any of this stuff is or if it's worth anything let me know. If you're interested in it send me an E-mail. I have a couple of days to send in a bid. *****IF**** enough people are interested in it and are willing to actually spent some money for it (and not expect me to buy it and give it to them) then I will put in a bid for it. The stuff is located near Kennedy space center in Florida and you'll have to make arrangements to get the stuff before Feb. 12. I **DO NOT** have the man power, time, vehicles or storage to move or keep it. This stuff is listed as scrap so it will be CHEAP!! probably around 12 cents per pound. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 22 15:57:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Macs Pluses In-Reply-To: <4738ed75.34c7a231@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980122155718.39a775be@intellistar.net> Tom, No, the Pluses were all there was. I didn't get the external hard drive that I was supposed to ether. No, I haven't gotten any software ether. I've been busy and haven't had time to look for anything for the Apples. Are you interested in all four of them? Make me an offer. 4 MacPluses with 1 Mb (says so on back, but there may be more memory added), four keyboards (one is missing one keytop), 3 0r 4 mice, two link connectors (I think it was Apple link but I don't remember) and one external 3 1/2" drive. Joe At 02:46 PM 1/22/98 EST, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > Haven't heard from you. Did you ever find any Macs other than Pluses? Were >you able to get system software? LMK. > >Sincerely, >Tom > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 22 16:18:52 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: DEC tapes & 24,000 lbs of old computers In-Reply-To: <199801222050.OAA07649@mailbox.neosoft.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980122152808.48c7677e@intellistar.net> <9801221649.AA14289@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980122161852.39a72a20@intellistar.net> David, The condition covers the whole range. Some of it is on pallets and covered with plastic and card board and look fine. Other items look like they stuck a forklift fork into them. I recall the Honeywell is on top of some HP 7925 disk drives and looks fine, I had to climb to get to it. I only saw one Honeywell but there's 2-3-4 of most of the others. Of course everything is piled up so there's no telling what's underneath. Some of the cabinets or the other stuff are dented but they look like there was no damage done. It's sitting outside now but it doesn't look like it's been there long. (No rust). I expect that half of it is still functional and the other half could be used for parts. This stuff is INCREDIBLE! It's a stack about 7 to 8 foot wide and at least forty feet long! Some of it is piled 7 foot high! I didn't have anything to write with when I looked at it, so these are only the items that I remember, there's LOTS more. I'd only interested in the smaller HP stuff. There are a bunch of HP 7888 system expanders, 98985 and 9885 disks drive and various interfaces. BTW what is the HP 2250? I don't think I've ever heard of it. Joe At 02:50 PM 1/22/98 +0000, you wrote: >Joe, > >Hmm, this might be worth renting a truck and driving down there. Any >more info on the condition of any of this? I'd be interested in VAX, >DEC or HP equipment but don't have time/money/space for it if the >equipment has been "chopped up" beyond repair. It would be neat to >have a Honeywell Level 6 (if it is what I remember) but REALLY don't >have the space for one. Let me know if you have any more details on >any of this stuff as it would sway me one way or the other. > >Thanks. > >David > > On 22 Jan 98 at 15:28, Joe wrote: >> BTW I found a HUGE pile of computer stuff today at a NASA >> auction. >> >>>>> 24,000 pounds <<<<<< of old computers including HP 2250, >> somebodies system 32/2750, Vax 631, DEC RA 60(s), PDP 11/84, VAX >> 6310, Honeywell Level 6 and lots more! No PCs in this lot, it's all >> mainframe computer stuff. Most of it is in dumpsters and some of it >> looks fine, other parts looks like they were opened with an axe! >> If anyone knows what any of this stuff is or if it's worth anything >> let me know. If you're interested in it send me an E-mail. I have >> a couple of days to send in a bid. *****IF**** enough people are >> interested in it and are willing to actually spent some money for it >> (and not expect me to buy it and give it to them) then I will put in >> a bid for it. The stuff is located near Kennedy space center in >> Florida and you'll have to make arrangements to get the stuff before >> Feb. 12. I **DO NOT** have the man power, time, vehicles or storage >> to move or keep it. This stuff is listed as scrap so it will be >> CHEAP!! probably around 12 cents per pound. >> >> Joe >> >> >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@neosoft.com >http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Thu Jan 22 16:23:07 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: toner cleaning Message-ID: <199801222223.OAA25846@ptld1.oss.uswest.net> What's the best way to clean out toner fluid from laser printers(or in my case a photcopier)? There's toner all over the inside, and it needs a lot of cleaning, but I don't want to destroy it trying to clean everything. TIA -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From william at ans.net Thu Jan 22 16:25:30 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: DEC tapes & 24,000 lbs of old computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980122152808.48c7677e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > No PCs in this lot, it's all mainframe > computer stuff. Well, minis...anyway, the only things really special here are the S/32 (if it is an IBM) and the Honeywell. The other things really are very common (OK, maybe not the HP, because I do not know what a 2250 is - it might be really special). William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 22 18:25:24 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: DEC tapes & 24,000 lbs of old computers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980122152808.48c7677e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980122182524.4fd7968e@intellistar.net> At 05:25 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >> No PCs in this lot, it's all mainframe >> computer stuff. > >Well, minis...anyway, the only things really special here are the S/32 (if >it is an IBM) I didn't see a name only the model number that I gave you "system 32 /2750". I don't think there could have been too many companies that used that model number. and the Honeywell. The other things really are very common >(OK, maybe not the HP, because I do not know what a 2250 is - it might >be really special). It just might be. Even Frank doesn't know what it is! > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > Joe > From engine at chac.org Thu Jan 22 17:57:25 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: toner cleaning Message-ID: <01bd2791$7d0d3280$2d17a2cd@croskan.vip.best.com> >What's the best way to clean out toner fluid from laser printers(or in my >case a photcopier)? There's toner all over the inside, and it needs a lot >of cleaning, but I don't want to destroy it trying to clean everything. You must be very careful! The easiest way to do this is with a soft brush and a vacuum cleaner, but because some varieties of toner are explosive, you have to use a vacuum cleaner with a sparkless motor. Special ones are made and sold for this purpose but they ain't cheap -- I don't know if you could rent one. Years ago at my last office job, a reload toner cart came apart and left toner all over the inside of a Laserjet IID. We wanted to call HP service but the skinflint boss insisted we clean it up ourselves. The receptionist went at it with a garden-variety hand vac which shot a six-inch flame out the exhaust, ruined the vac motor and scorched the wall. I didn't see the flame but I sure saw the burn on the wall. /kc From engine at chac.org Thu Jan 22 18:03:07 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: DEC tapes & 24,000 lbs of old computers Message-ID: <01bd2792$48f27680$2d17a2cd@croskan.vip.best.com> >>(OK, maybe not the HP, because I do not know what a 2250 is - it might >>be really special). > > It just might be. Even Frank doesn't know what it is! It's a piece of test gear that hooks to an HP 1000. Early eighties. /kc From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 22 19:23:53 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: DEC tapes & 24,000 lbs of old computers In-Reply-To: <01bd2792$48f27680$2d17a2cd@croskan.vip.best.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980122192353.4f6f4d06@intellistar.net> At 04:03 PM 1/22/98 -0800, you wrote: >>>(OK, maybe not the HP, because I do not know what a 2250 is - it might >>>be really special). >> >> It just might be. Even Frank doesn't know what it is! > > >It's a piece of test gear that hooks to an HP 1000. Early eighties. >/kc > Tell me more. Most of HP's test equipment is standard stand alone equimpment that has a computer interface added (usually HP-IB). Is the 2250 just a big interface or does it actually have a test capability itself. Wonder if there's a 1000 in that pile somewhere :-) or is it inside the 2250. (Even better, it would be protected.) Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 22 19:40:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: HP 2250 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980122194056.4f6f49a6@intellistar.net> Got this from a friend of mine: I've never heard of an HP2250 either, but according to the 1983 HP catalog, the HP2250A is a "Measurement and Control Processor." It's designed to work with the HP1000 and HP9800 computers via an HP-IB interface, and accommodates a series of plug-in cards for measurement functions (like multiplexers, A/D converters, counters, relay cards, etc.). It has "a built-in LSI microprocessor and MCL/50 firmware, a software command set comprised of over 100 applications oriented mnemonic commands that can be used in many combinations to optimize measurement and control operations." Apparently, you program it using the host computer, then set it loose on its own to gather data and control devices. Interesting... Joe From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Jan 22 13:47:49 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <01bd2791$7d0d3280$2d17a2cd@croskan.vip.best.com> Message-ID: <199801230042.TAA02834@mail.cgocable.net> > >What's the best way to clean out toner fluid from laser printers(or in my > >case a photcopier)? There's toner all over the inside, and it needs a lot > >of cleaning, but I don't want to destroy it trying to clean everything. > Fluid? (are you sure?), oh man, is that clear thing or black inky thing? That requires major work than you would think, you need to draw up where things fits and it's pulley systems, etc... otherwise hire the proper authorized service for that brand on this one. > You must be very careful! The easiest way to do this is with a soft brush > and a vacuum cleaner, but because some varieties of toner are explosive, you > have to use a vacuum cleaner with a sparkless motor. Special ones are made > and sold for this purpose but they ain't cheap -- I don't know if you could > rent one. > > Years ago at my last office job, a reload toner cart came apart and left > toner all over the inside of a Laserjet IID. We wanted to call HP service > but the skinflint boss insisted we clean it up ourselves. The receptionist > went at it with a garden-variety hand vac which shot a six-inch flame out > the exhaust, ruined the vac motor and scorched the wall. I didn't see the > flame but I sure saw the burn on the wall. > /kc John, /kc is right. he is saying basically (me) assume all dry powder toner is flammable and explosive. Yes, it's explosive. A spark, Boom! I have heard several times some got hurt or got scared when vacuum cleaners blew apart or chewed the motor by those gritty powder. So, if it's dry powder type, please part any major out much as you can and clean each individually with cool or lukewarm soapy water with old brush followed by plain water rinse, dry them with some paper towel partly dampened w/ alcohol scrubbed on. Not FUN. :) A stupid owner who left the cartidge left in my printer that was moved, spilling it all over inside. Any electronic boards has to be out and brushed really good, wash every nook and crannies of the case, any parts, some moving parts. If the some parts is lubed was washed off, relube them with lithium lube easily gotten from proper electronics store. This is compareable to smoke damage repair work. I ditto on that on other impact printer. The stinky toner powder is very fine than dry plain dust and coat everything all over as one works on this project, will give few advices: You're advised to buy a box/bag worth of disposable dust masks (a must!) and box of surgical vinyl gloves if you want easier clean up of your hands. These 2 things are cheap than you're would think. Old clothes or dispoable overall clothes. Remember, the excessive heat will set the toner. Please, no hurry as you will spend more than a day or few days on that distasteful task. I did and learned this lesson well, and sneezed black mucous cleared up in short order. :P Now, I will know next time toner spill happens again. Oh yes, I did part out a junked too old (dial-type and used relays) tossed-about, banged up copier which used fluidic black toner that dried up for how long I dunno! Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 22 20:09:15 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Need Keyboard for DEC VT-220 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Got a couple interesting items tonight...a DecMate II in a tower box...it's just the desktop case stuffed inside a retrofit tower enclosure...still kinda nice. Also got a VT220 without a keyboard. Does anyone have a working keyboard they're willing to get rid of for the cost of shipping? In addition, I got a big box 24 inches wide or so, a couple feet deep and like 18 inches tall...called a DEC Communications Server. Not very heavy and has some DB25 (presumably RS232) connectors on the front. What precisely IS it? Terminal server? Mux? Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: Also got a bunch of dial and leased line modems...Paradynes, etc...lots and LOTS of pretty lights...as Homer would say, "aaaaggggghghhlllggghhhh". =-) From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Thu Jan 22 20:37:01 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Heads Up! TWO VAXen need rescue! Message-ID: <34c90217.158529353@mail.wizards.net> Found on Usenet. Please direct responses to the original author. -=-=- -=-=- Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Path: Supernews70!Supernews60!supernews.com!news.he.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!128.122.253.92!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd!notes From: Stuart Cohnen Subject: VAX 4000-200 for Sale, Cheap! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: shalom.rockefeller.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <34C779A4.BB5D2884@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> Sender: notes@rockyd.rockefeller.edu (News Administrator) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Rockefeller University Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:53:56 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; U) Lines: 22 Xref: Supernews70 comp.os.vms:183086 We have retired a VAX 4000-200 with 64 Megs and the following DSSI disks RF74 (3.5G), RF31 (350M), RF73 (2G) and 2- RF72 (2G). In addition, we have a SCSI controller and a Exabyte 8000 with 10 tape stacker. Yes and more, a 1600bpi 2 Kennedy Tape Drive (one is a spare, not on-line). Included is DECNET and VMS licenses. This machine has been under DEC maintanence. Make me an offer -- you pay shipping or pick it up here in New York City. Also, anyone want to take away an 11/750? I even have the Field Service schematics! Contact me: Stuart Cohnen The Rockefeller University cohnen@mail.rockefeller.edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin2 {at} wiz d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 22 20:24:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <199801230042.TAA02834@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Jan 22, 98 07:47:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2025 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980123/e53fd333/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 22 20:44:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Need Keyboard for DEC VT-220 In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 22, 98 08:09:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2510 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980123/7344bd51/attachment.ksh From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Jan 22 22:14:11 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Need Keyboard for DEC VT-220 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Also got a VT220 without a keyboard. Does anyone have a working keyboard > > they're willing to get rid of for the cost of shipping? > > I don't know if this helps, but the DECmate keyboard should work on the > VT220. It's a standard LK201 keyboard. Hmmm...no keyboard/monitor with the DecMate II. I'll have to look into THAT. > > In addition, I got a big box 24 inches wide or so, a couple feet deep and > > like 18 inches tall...called a DEC Communications Server. Not very heavy > > Sounds like a DECSA (Digital Ethernet Communications Server Aparatus, I > think). Have you opened it up yet? > I think you're right after looking at it! > PDP11/24 CPU card (Yes, it's a PDP11....) > Memory (256kW seems to be somewhat standard) Haven't looked inside yet but looking through the cooling slots it's obvious there's a backplane and boards in there. > DEUNA (Unibus Ethernet card) - 2 board set Oh REALLY?????? So, it'd drop into my 11/84 would it? Hmmmmmmm..... > Round the back is the bulkhead for the DEUNA (the DA-15S connector is an > ethernet AUI port) and 1 or 2 PSUs (again, you add the second one when > you have more than 8 line cards installed). > Yep it's got that. Noticed it when I pulled it out of the car and realized that it IS a terminal server. > I believe it needs to download some software (using DEC's MOP protocol) > before it will do anything much, alas. Still, it is a PDP11, and it is > quite interesting. > Frankly, if you guys tell me I can pull the DEUNA board and drop it into the 11/84, that would be the most valuable aspect of the box for me! =) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From bmpete at swbell.net Thu Jan 22 21:42:23 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Kaypro Question In-Reply-To: <007001bd2739$d4b82920$c627a2ce@cliffgre> References: <007001bd2739$d4b82920$c627a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: <34c81124.1132169@mail.swbell.net> On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:31:42 -0500, you said: >Could someone (briefly) describe the differences between a Kaypro II and a >Kayro 2 (2X ?) Smart alec mode=ON The 2X is what I have, the 2 is what I don't have... Serious mode=ON (I asked the same question a while back with no answer) _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 22 22:57:18 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <199801230042.TAA02834@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980122225718.0093b990@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Tony Duell typed: >Oh, I've done worse. The Versatec V80 (aka PERQ electrostatic printer, >aka ICL 6203) uses a black liquid toner that gets everywhere. And it >tastes plain horrible as I found out when I unblocked the pump valves by >the old suck-it-and-see method ;-). Blech! My tongue is quivering just thinking about that! >The only reason (AFAIK) that toner is explosive is that it's a very fine >powder. Sawdust or flour is explosive for much the same reason. A pile of >toner will not explode, not will it burn easily. A cloud most certainly will. Yes -- think about it. Even on the older printers/copiers, the toner was fuzed to the paper at around 105 degrees Centigrade. My HP LaserJet 5 (Yea, I use it on my Atari 1040STf to keep this in scope) fuzes the toner at 200 degrees Centigrade. (No, I can't remember how to spell the other word, dammit! ;^> Would you rather I convert the temps into Kelvin???? ;^) If the stuff was explosive like gunpowder, laser printers would never work! However, when you do your cleanup, make sure you do an extremely good job... many types of toner available are magnetic, and conduct electricity very well! If you even suspect a toner leak in a laser printer, don't plug it in! Toner fuzed to the logic boards is "A Bad Thing (TM)". >If you're taking the whole machine apart, relubricate it anyway. >Oil/grease is a lot cheaper than new parts, and a lot easier to obtain. Uh, yea. The sucker's already all apart -- there's virtually no added work to put it back together right! (I'm an expert on this -- I reassemble stuff all the time -- usually forgetting to follow this advice...) Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From bmpete at swbell.net Thu Jan 22 21:59:54 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: MFM drives In-Reply-To: <199801221854.NAA08898@mail.cgocable.net> References: <7662be5d.34c54d01@aol.com> <199801221854.NAA08898@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <34c813f3.261113@mail.swbell.net> On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:59:31 +0000, you said: >Hey, did you steal those "dm/m" program from me?! :) heh, just >kidding. That's what I use for this work. But HD test program to >sniff out hd? I'm frowning on it...use the deadwood or website for >correct specs, sometimes hd's lied to me. Well, where do you get this >HDTS only especially those jumper/specs? I'm trying to find enough >info as is... I use DM version 5.0; a general-purpose version that doesn't require the /m. HDTS is, AFAIK, not shareware. By Octagon Micro Devices, Inc. USA. It was on a computer I bought at auction and has CHS, un/formatted capacities, form factor, power consumption, interface, and other info about drives. It also has some controller info, but not a lot, including a line-graphic picture showing where jumpers and connectors are. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From Squest at cris.com Thu Jan 22 23:00:19 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Need Keyboard for DEC VT-220 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > Got a couple interesting items tonight...a DecMate II in a tower > box...it's just the desktop case stuffed inside a retrofit tower > enclosure...still kinda nice. Just curious, is this item of any value? Does anyone know? Rare? > Also got a VT220 without a keyboard. Does anyone have a working keyboard > they're willing to get rid of for the cost of shipping? The keyboard for it is up at the Science Center, see if they aren't still using it, if not, go get it back. :) > In addition, I got a big box 24 inches wide or so, a couple feet deep and > like 18 inches tall...called a DEC Communications Server. Not very heavy > and has some DB25 (presumably RS232) connectors on the front. What > precisely IS it? Terminal server? Mux? It's a multiplexor, takes many ports and multiplexes them into one output which goes to the dedicated modem. Look on the _back_ of the communications server, that's where it comes out, it goes in on the front, up to 8 or so cards can be mounted for input channels. :) > Thanks... No, thank YOU. :) Hope it all found a happy home. :) > PS: Also got a bunch of dial and leased line modems...Paradynes, > etc...lots and LOTS of pretty lights...as Homer would say, > "aaaaggggghghhlllggghhhh". =-) Does anyone know if a Paradyne VHS-19.2 will talk to a Motorola Codex? I know the Codex and one of the Paradynes works, but I'm not sure about the other paradyne, the disassembled one. I think it's broken. sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jan 22 23:12:51 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: HP 2250 In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:40:56 References: <3.0.1.16.19980122194056.4f6f49a6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801230512.VAA28113@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > Got this from a friend of mine: > > I've never heard of an HP2250 either, but according to the 1983 HP > catalog, the HP2250A is a "Measurement and Control Processor." It's > designed to work with the HP1000 and HP9800 computers via an HP-IB [snip] 1983 is probably about right -- it's not in the 1980 or 1981 Measurement/Computation catalogs. Instead there is something called a 2240A that seems to be about the same idea. Hmm. I guess I don't quite understand how this is substantially different from a 6940B or 6942A Multiprogrammer, but then I haven't worked with any of them. Well, the 694xs get a few more pages in the catalogs, look like they might have a wider range of I/O cards, and I gather the 6940B may be what you needed to resort to for faster-than-HP-IB communications with the controlling host processor (it can use a 16-bit parallel interface). Joe, did you tell me (in private mail) that this thing was mounted in a rack? There's a picture in the 1981 catalog of something called a System 9030 that looks like a desk-height rack with woodgrain top and wheels, and the accompanying paragraph of text: "The HP 2240 can be installed in a roll-around cabinet with plug connectors for portable use. Adding a controller (HP 9825, 9835, or 9845) and available exercising software, the preconfigured combination is called the HP System 9030. Contact your local HP office for information about specific ordering constraints." The picture has what I'd guess to be a 9835A sitting on the woodgrain top, presumably looking like the expected controller. If the 2250A is anything like the 2240A, it's a smallish 19" rack-mountable box, maybe 12" tall. Meaning that about half the System 9030 rack is taken up with something else, maybe the "plug connectors" mentioned above? -Frank McConnell From Squest at cris.com Thu Jan 22 23:17:16 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Need Keyboard for DEC VT-220 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Steve J. Quest wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > In addition, I got a big box 24 inches wide or so, a couple feet deep and > > like 18 inches tall...called a DEC Communications Server. Not very heavy > > and has some DB25 (presumably RS232) connectors on the front. What > > precisely IS it? Terminal server? Mux? > > It's a multiplexor, takes many ports and multiplexes them into one > output which goes to the dedicated modem. Look on the _back_ of the > communications server, that's where it comes out, it goes in on the front, > up to 8 or so cards can be mounted for input channels. :) After reading what the other person said, maybe I don't know what the thing is, but then again, that's why I gave it away. ;) Looks like Tony alread found uses for it, so I'm happy. Better than the dumpster. sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From rector at christcom.net Thu Jan 22 23:22:16 1998 From: rector at christcom.net (Daniel E. Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: I don't think these are RX02s... Message-ID: <01BD278E.2FEDE100@slip166-72-88-150.mn.us.ibm.net> > WPS/78 V3.4 (No communications) > WPS/78 V3.1F > WPS-v3 WPS SYSTEM< > > Anyone know what these are? > ------- > - don ------------- Back in college, they used to teach word processing on our VAX 11/750. The word processor they used was called WPS - could this be a variant of that? From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 23 00:16:14 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Kaypro Question In-Reply-To: <34c81124.1132169@mail.swbell.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Barry Peterson wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:31:42 -0500, you said: > > >Could someone (briefly) describe the differences between a Kaypro II and a > >Kayro 2 (2X ?) > > Smart alec mode=ON > > The 2X is what I have, the 2 is what I don't have... > > Serious mode=ON > > (I asked the same question a while back with no answer) > _______________ > > Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net > Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, > Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. > There are probably enough exceptions to make a liar out of anyone. However, in general the machines are related like this: Kaypro II - first of the volume produced Kaypros. Came in a couple of versions as defined by the Boot EPROM. The 81-149-C was the early version, followed by the 81-232. These units had SSDD full height drives stacked vertically. Early models had a fixed power cord, later versions had the plugin variety. These machines were the predecessor of the Kaypro 4. They are considered as '83 machines. Kaypro 2 - this was a later ('84) version of the Kaypro, which usually featured half height drives stacked vertically. Front panel sheet metal appeared between the drives. Again, the drives were normally SSDD. The boot EPROM was the 81-292. They shared a common motherboard with the Kaypro 4. Kaypro 2X - this was really a 4 in sheep's clothing. They usually carried EPROM 81-292 and shared a motherboard with the late Kaypro 4s. Drives were half height DSDD stacked vertically like the Kaypro 2. Some Kaypro 2X's had the built in real time clock and modem. Others had one or none! Some carried the dreaded 81-478 U-ROM which was Kaypro's approach to one that would cover any and all of their 8-bit requirements. I have probably missed a couple of details, but that is the general thrust of things. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 23 07:29:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: HP 2250 In-Reply-To: <199801230512.VAA28113@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.1.16.19980122194056.4f6f49a6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980123072955.4807978c@intellistar.net> At 09:12 PM 1/22/98 -0800, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> Got this from a friend of mine: >> >> I've never heard of an HP2250 either, but according to the 1983 HP >> catalog, the HP2250A is a "Measurement and Control Processor." It's >> designed to work with the HP1000 and HP9800 computers via an HP-IB >[snip] > >1983 is probably about right -- it's not in the 1980 or 1981 >Measurement/Computation catalogs. Instead there is something called >a 2240A that seems to be about the same idea. > >Hmm. I guess I don't quite understand how this is substantially >different from a 6940B or 6942A Multiprogrammer, but then I haven't >worked with any of them. Well, the 694xs get a few more pages in the >catalogs, look like they might have a wider range of I/O cards, and I >gather the 6940B may be what you needed to resort to for >faster-than-HP-IB communications with the controlling host processor >(it can use a 16-bit parallel interface). This was much bigger than a mulltiprogrammer. I've seen a bunch of those and they're only about 6 or 8" tall. This appeared to be much taller. The multiprommers are operated by an exteranl computer. Apparently these contain a computer similar to a HP 1000. > >Joe, did you tell me (in private mail) that this thing was mounted in >a rack? There's a picture in the 1981 catalog of something called a I couldn't see the front or back so I don't know if it's rack mounted or not, it appears to be able the same width as a rack. >System 9030 that looks like a desk-height rack with woodgrain top and >wheels, and the accompanying paragraph of text: > >"The HP 2240 can be installed in a roll-around cabinet with plug >connectors for portable use. Adding a controller (HP 9825, 9835, or >9845) and available exercising software, the preconfigured combination >is called the HP System 9030. Contact your local HP office for >information about specific ordering constraints." There was a bunch of interfaces and disk drives around for the 98xx machines so that may be what this is. It looke like it may have a keyboard sticking out and a CRT mounted above so it may have a 9845 installed. I'm going to have to go back there when I'm not rushed and take a better look. > >The picture has what I'd guess to be a 9835A sitting on the woodgrain >top, presumably looking like the expected controller. > >If the 2250A is anything like the 2240A, it's a smallish 19" >rack-mountable box, maybe 12" tall. Meaning that about half the >System 9030 rack is taken up with something else, maybe the "plug >connectors" mentioned above? > A 9845 or 9835B with a CRT is pretty good size just by itself. Joe >-Frank McConnell > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 23 08:22:40 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: RL02s in dumpster Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980123082240.00b59e90@pc> The other day I saw two RL02s in a dumpster outside the UW-Madison surplus center. I didn't have anything to connect them to, and they were a bit dinged. What sort of platter is inside them? Should I go disassemble them to get the big platters to hang on the wall? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 23 08:32:06 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980123083206.00b91500@pc> Subject: DEC PDP 11 Computer From: Tim Armstrong Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:08:37 +1300 Message-ID: <34C809B5.11DF40B@vuw.ac.nz> Organization: Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand Newsgroups: nz.comp We are closing down a system which used a DEC PDP11. As parts for these rather old machines are getting a bit hard to get would anyone out there be interested in this piece of hardware. -- Tim Armstrong, Maintenance Manager Victoria University of Wellington PO Box 600, Wellington, New Zealand phone (04) 495 5073, Fax (04) 495 5242 From Ad at elan.nl Fri Jan 23 09:05:44 1998 From: Ad at elan.nl (Ad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02 Message-ID: <34C8B1C7.C37267A1@elan.nl> I'm looking for a disk called "Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02". To setup my old 286 with a Seagate type 42 HD From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Jan 23 11:12:46 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: RL02s in dumpster In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123082240.00b59e90@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 23, 98 08:22:40 am Message-ID: <199801231712.JAA09730@fraser.sfu.ca> These drives take removable platters! You should be able to use them on PDP 11s or Vaxen. You'll just need some cables and a controller. I have an extra controller (Q bus) if you need it! Kevin > > The other day I saw two RL02s in a dumpster outside the UW-Madison > surplus center. I didn't have anything to connect them to, and > they were a bit dinged. What sort of platter is inside them? > Should I go disassemble them to get the big platters to hang on > the wall? > > - John > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jan 23 11:34:35 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: RL02s in dumpster In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123082240.00b59e90@pc> Message-ID: <13326544366.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> They have removable packs. Go snag those! And the drives themselves may be good... ------- From archive at navix.net Fri Jan 23 15:01:22 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Some classic finds! Message-ID: <34C90521.A7001812@navix.net> Today a lady in SE Oklahoma called me, and says she just picked up quite a few things at a local vo-tech auction. I will pass this information onto you folks, as I'm waiting to find out some shipping charges from you. Her name is ShirleyShliger and her home phone # is 405-286- 2965. Her e-mail address is shirley@redriver.com. Included in the list of things she picked up are: 1) 9 TRS-80s - 3 or 4 each of Model 3 and Model 4 units. 2) 1 TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard only. 3) Some type of Commodore suitcase portable???? 4) IBM DisplayWriter's with 8 inch drives. 5) IBM PC, Jr (2) with monitor and keyboard 9) Radio Shack DMP 100-110 printers 10) Several IBM .... printers. 11) Bell & Howell Apple. Black case...! 12) Sounds like much more. Let's go rescue this stuff. Good luck, CORD COSLOR Archive Software -- _________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | |-----------------------------------------| | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | | (402) 872- 3272 | |_________________________________________| From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 23 13:44:30 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: GRiDSPeCs Page updated In-Reply-To: <34C90521.A7001812@navix.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980123144430.007f5330@netpath.net> GRiDDiTes: I have updated the GRiDSPeCs page once again. I added two new pages spotlighting the Compass 1100 and the GRiDCASE 3. You can find them here: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD/compass.html http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD/gridcase3.html And of course the main page is still right where I left it: http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD/ I hope to OCR some more of the GRiDCASE 3 manual sometime soon. It is a slow process at the moment, since I haven't much time to work on it. (If anyone runs across any old GRiD equipment, let me know. I'll give it a good home. I am especially looking for an ext. floppy for the 1535exp, addon pods for the 1535exp, and any external devices for the GRiDCASE 3. I'll also take manuals and ROMs, as well as GRiD-OS disk sets, pricing sheets, dealer manuals, magazines featuring articles on GRiDs, etc. etc.) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From archive at navix.net Fri Jan 23 16:12:05 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Some classic finds! References: <34C90521.A7001812@navix.net> Message-ID: <34C915B4.68900862@navix.net> I just tried her e-mail address, and it doesn't seem to be correct. That is what she told me, though. Anyway, the phone # is correct. I will try to post the correct e-mail address for her soon!. CORD Cord Coslor wrote: > Today a lady in SE Oklahoma called me, and says she just picked up quite > a few things at a local vo-tech auction. I will pass this information > onto you folks, as I'm waiting to find out some shipping charges from > you. > > Her name is ShirleyShliger and her home phone # is 405-286- 2965. Her > e-mail address is shirley@redriver.com. > > Included in the list of things she picked up are: > > 1) 9 TRS-80s - 3 or 4 each of Model 3 and Model 4 units. > 2) 1 TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard only. > 3) Some type of Commodore suitcase portable???? > 4) IBM DisplayWriter's with 8 inch drives. > 5) IBM PC, Jr (2) with monitor and keyboard > 9) Radio Shack DMP 100-110 printers > 10) Several IBM .... printers. > 11) Bell & Howell Apple. Black case...! > 12) Sounds like much more. > > Let's go rescue this stuff. > > Good luck, > > CORD COSLOR > Archive Software > > -- > _________________________________________ > | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | > | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | > |-----------------------------------------| > | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | > | (402) 872- 3272 | > |_________________________________________| -- _________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | |-----------------------------------------| | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | | (402) 872- 3272 | |_________________________________________| From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 23 15:28:41 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02 In-Reply-To: <34C8B1C7.C37267A1@elan.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Ad wrote: > I'm looking for a disk called "Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02". > To setup my old 286 with a Seagate type 42 HD Come up on ftp.pc.ibm.com and rustle around in /pub/pccbbs/ref-disks (or something close to that) and you should find what you need. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jan 23 18:43:47 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Mac development Message-ID: <19980124004348.26067.qmail@hotmail.com> I know that programming on the Macintosh is hell, but I would still like to try it, on an old one. Does anyone know where I could get Inside Macintosh for the Mac SE era? Also, what should I use to develop? I don't believe they used CodeWarrior all along! Didn't Apple sell an IDE? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Fri Jan 23 19:03:29 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Mac development Message-ID: <199801240103.RAA19802@ptld1.ptld.uswest.net> >I know that programming on the Macintosh is hell, but I would still >like to try it, on an old one. Does anyone know where I could get >Inside Macintosh for the Mac SE era? Also, what should I use to develop? >I don't believe they used CodeWarrior all along! Didn't Apple sell an >IDE? As far as I know, Inside Macintosh just keeps expanding, adding new books as new stuff comes along. For a Mac SE, just don't get the later books. Check around at used book stores. IM is also available on CD-ROM. As for what to use, try to dig up old software, there's Lightspeed Pascal(aka THINK Pascal), Microsoft Basic, I think Microsoft also had something for C on the older Macs. If you just want to go D/L something of the net, there are a lot of shareware/freeware programs out there that run on older Macs. You just have to look a little harder... As for Apple, I know they had something, I just don't remember what it was. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From marvin at rain.org Fri Jan 23 20:17:55 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:24 2005 Subject: Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02 References: <34C8B1C7.C37267A1@elan.nl> Message-ID: <34C94F53.37A78F60@rain.org> Ad wrote: > I'm looking for a disk called "Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02". > To setup my old 286 with a Seagate type 42 HD While I don't think the setup disk is difficult to obtain for the IBM, there is a shareware program called GSETUP31.EXE that will do the same thing, only easier. It should be available at a number of places on the net. I have used this program occassionally and it seems to work very nicely. FWIW, it will not support the user defined disk drives. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 23 20:28:52 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development In-Reply-To: <19980124004348.26067.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I know that programming on the Macintosh is hell, but I would still >like to try it, on an old one. Does anyone know where I could get >Inside Macintosh for the Mac SE era? Also, what should I use to develop? >I don't believe they used CodeWarrior all along! Didn't Apple sell an >IDE? Programming the Macintosh is not hell! It's not as easy or sloppy as Visual Basic, but it can still be a dream machine to program. If you are seriously interested I recommend using CodeWarrior, and Tools Plus (a programming library that vastly simplifies things). You can get older copies of the Inside Macintosh from Powells books. http://www.powells.com there are two different series, the older is I believe 4 or 6 volumes. The newest is about 30+ volumes now, I'd recommend getting the newest on CD-ROM. Better yet, get a copy of the Magazine "Mac Tech", and order a copy of the CD that contains all thier back issues, it contains the current version of the THINK Reference. I'd recommend avoiding Apples IDE, I've tried it out, and didn't like it. Very primitive feeling. Still it's the only way to really add a CLI to a Macintosh. IIRC it's currently either discontued or in maintence mode. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 17:02:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980122225718.0093b990@mail.northernway.net> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 22, 98 10:57:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1027 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980123/d78cc0d5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 17:09:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Need Keyboard for DEC VT-220 In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Jan 22, 98 10:14:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1718 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980123/b4dbbafc/attachment.ksh From TOwad at aol.com Fri Jan 23 21:51:24 1998 From: TOwad at aol.com (T Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development Message-ID: <7911bf26.34c9653f@aol.com> >I know that programming on the Macintosh is hell, but I would still >like to try it, on an old one. Does anyone know where I could get >Inside Macintosh for the Mac SE era? Also, what should I use to develop? >I don't believe they used CodeWarrior all along! Didn't Apple sell an >IDE? My favorite is the now discontinued Think Pascal. You should be able to find it used for under $100. Apple used to sell a compilation of tools called 'Macintosh Programmer's Workshop', but from what i understand it was never that impressive. If you're just want to play around Chipmunk BASIC can be had as freeware. I saw the complete set of Inside Macintosh on CD-ROM at Border's Bookstore for $99. I recall hearing you can download individual chapters from the books via Apple's web site, but I can't confirm that. Sincerely, Tom Owad From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 23 23:22:52 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: MFM drives Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980123172812.37e70ed8@ricochet.net> >My two favorite tools for HD work are the "On-Track Disk Manager >program V 5", and "Hard Drive Test Specs" program. DM lets you test, >LL format, create, and prep partitions. I will give a hearty second to the recommendation for Disk Manager. Can't be beat. If you've ever swapped a hard drive, or you ever plan to, get this program! If you even know what a hard drive is, you should probably have it. Also good is LapLink Pro, which allows you to transfer itself to another computer without having to use diskettes -- handy for those older (PC) machines (like >10 years) whose floppy drives have gone south, but you want access to the hard drive. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 23 23:22:54 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980123174958.37e71b7a@ricochet.net> At 10:45 AM 1/21/98 -0600, you wrote: >> Ahh, that sucks! My parents have control of my money again, so I'd never get away with spending >> $50 on old computers... (They're trying to discourage me from playing with >> computers, and being about as subtle as a jackhammer...) > >I'll leave this public since it might be useful to someone...I'm 29 now >but when I was 16 or 17 my parents expended GREAT energy trying to get me >to stop playing with computers because my dad thought they were a FAD >(hahahahahahahahahahaa) and my mom thought it was unhealthy for me to >hide in the basement all the time like some brain-damaged monster. My mom once told me that computers were a tool of the devil. >Tell your parents that today I have a college degree, have been out on my >own working productively since I was 20 (with VERY little external >support), earn twice the median income in my state, started a successful I dropped out of college -- I was too busy working to finish. (Actually, I'm only 1 beginning Cobol class away from a 2-year degree.) I've been an independant consultant for not quite 8 years; I went indy when I was 24. About 5 years ago, I bought my parents house (long story; they'd been "renting" for 20-odd years) so they wouldn't lose it. My mom passed away 2 years ago (last Saturday 8^( ) and I moved back home shortly thereafter to care for my dad. I spent about 3 years driving them to work and home when my dad was no longer able to take pubtrans; I was able to do that because my clients didn't mind when I worked, so long as I worked for them. Now I'm working from home 3 days a week so I can be with my dad more. Meanwhile, my older brother (who my folks put through UC Berkeley (BS - Economic Geography) and Golden Gate University (MBA)) once shouted in the middle of a crowded plaza that he wanted nothing to do with my father (and didn't want him attending his concert) because he *smelled bad*. With my dad standing right there. My younger brother (who my folks put through SF State (BA - Speech Communications)) can't be bothered to visit or call his dad -- he's too busy hanging out with friends and going to church. Last time he visited, he stole my CB. The elder of my two sisters, (UC Berkeley, Math, flunked out) is happy being a secretary and, again, isn't interested enough to call or visit. (My younger sister, (Johnson & Wales, Equine Business), lives at home too, and helps out an amazing amount. She's single, btw.) So, the moral is, your parents should either encourage you to be a computer nerd, or a horse nut. >My parents realize their mistake now...my father tearfully gave me his >gold retirement watch, which I accepted reluctantly, to show how proud >he is of me. My parents are happy with me and I'm happy with myself all >thanks to my tinkering all those years in the basement. My mom, too, came to realize that me and my computers were a good thing (in spite of the fact that not all those "computer club meetings" involved more than one person of each sex...). Let me just add that I don't hire "micro-weenies". That is, if a person doesn't understand that Pentium II *isn't* called that because the Pentium was the first computer, I'm not interested in working with them. There are tons of jobs out there right now for CoBOL programmers (btw, if you want a job as a CoBOL programmer, you better darn well know who Grace Hopper was!). And solid programming, database, and operations skills will *never* go out of style, and they're a lot easier to pick up in the older/bigger computer world. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 23 23:23:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980123181422.37e71016@ricochet.net> At 11:07 PM 1/21/98 -0800, you wrote: >>I'll leave this public since it might be useful to someone...I'm 29 now >>but when I was 16 or 17 my parents expended GREAT energy trying to get me >Well, I AM 17, and I'm up to 30 computers or so... Let me see if I can >remember them all, my web site is a partial listing. One other item that was pointed out to me in the collectibles forum of Compuserve -- teenagers who collect things rarely get into trouble. You don't see them spending money on drugs or liquor or whathaveyou, and they don't often end up in jail. (Yes, I'm an exception, but I wasn't actively collecting anything in high school.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From mallison at konnections.com Sat Jan 24 00:10:55 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development References: <7911bf26.34c9653f@aol.com> Message-ID: <34C985EF.4FFD@konnections.com> Newbie, been lurking... I thought the first C on the MAC was Think C. The PWS was in Pascal to take advantage of the native Pascal code. 'Could be wrong, of course... .,. ~ -Mike Allison T Owad wrote: > > >I know that programming on the Macintosh is hell, but I would still > >like to try it, on an old one. Does anyone know where I could get > >Inside Macintosh for the Mac SE era? Also, what should I use to develop? > >I don't believe they used CodeWarrior all along! Didn't Apple sell an > >IDE? > > My favorite is the now discontinued Think Pascal. You should be able to find > it used for under $100. Apple used to sell a compilation of tools called > 'Macintosh Programmer's Workshop', but from what i understand it was never > that impressive. If you're just want to play around Chipmunk BASIC can be had > as freeware. > I saw the complete set of Inside Macintosh on CD-ROM at Border's Bookstore > for $99. I recall hearing you can download individual chapters from the books > via Apple's web site, but I can't confirm that. > > Sincerely, > Tom Owad From mallison at konnections.com Sat Jan 24 00:14:17 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: MFM drives & Interlink References: <3.0.16.19980123172812.37e70ed8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <34C986B9.55BC@konnections.com> I saw LapLink Pro and it looked great, but was a bit complex as the manual seemed ambig. On a lark, I picked up some laplink - type yellow cables at the thrift store and ran them through Interlnk & Intersvr on DOS 6. Worked really neat. If you have dos on both machines, try that first, if you an borrow or otherwise get the cables. Haven't got the direct connect on '95 to work yet, but that's progress for ya... -Mike Uncle Roger wrote: > > >My two favorite tools for HD work are the "On-Track Disk Manager > >program V 5", and "Hard Drive Test Specs" program. DM lets you test, > >LL format, create, and prep partitions. > > I will give a hearty second to the recommendation for Disk Manager. Can't > be beat. If you've ever swapped a hard drive, or you ever plan to, get > this program! If you even know what a hard drive is, you should probably > have it. > > Also good is LapLink Pro, which allows you to transfer itself to another > computer without having to use diskettes -- handy for those older (PC) > machines (like >10 years) whose floppy drives have gone south, but you want > access to the hard drive. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From kroma at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 23 19:16:00 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development Message-ID: <001201bd2865$a2d1ac60$64f8430a@kroma-i> Try this address at Apple to look up info: http://til.info.apple.com/ -- Kirk From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 24 01:49:33 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available References: <3.0.16.19980123181422.37e71016@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <34C99D0D.E0B76342@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 11:07 PM 1/21/98 -0800, you wrote: > >>I'll leave this public since it might be useful to someone...I'm 29 now > >>but when I was 16 or 17 my parents expended GREAT energy trying to get me > > >Well, I AM 17, and I'm up to 30 computers or so... Let me see if I can > >remember them all, my web site is a partial listing. > > One other item that was pointed out to me in the collectibles forum of > Compuserve -- teenagers who collect things rarely get into trouble. You > don't see them spending money on drugs or liquor or whathaveyou, and they > don't often end up in jail. (Yes, I'm an exception, but I wasn't actively > collecting anything in high school.) What exception? In high school I actively collected science fiction books since computers weren't affordable yet to a high school kid -- I wore a slide rule on my belt because (1) I used it (2) that honestly was the easiest way to carry a Pickett and (3) the HP-35 came out in my junior year of high school priced about $395.00 more than I had on hand. But I've done my share of drugs, not much -- at my wasted peak back when I was in the USAF [74-78], I sometimes did cannabis twice in a month -- I'm not fond of it since it has the effect of reducing my paranoia and as an Angeleno presently exiled to New Jersey -- I'll move home when salt has been sown in the ruins of Sacramento I _like_ being aware of what's behind me; and I still do my share of liquor, mostly in the form of beer, although I did have a keyboard ruined once when a cat jumped onto it upsetting a can of Midnight Dragon Ale on the way, but it was just a nameless cheap PC compatible keyboard (if crap like that becomes collectible except by _weird_ specialists, I'm going back to slide rules, though I still have the inert hardware) and yes, I've ended up in jail a time or two, though never for crimes against persons or property -- an activist takes his risks and knows what the risks are. I've been addressing you as _Uncle_ Roger and you're _ten years_ younger than I am? I better go take a nap. People my age shouldn't be processing their email at almost three in the morning, especially if they got up for work at the previous six AM. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From bwit at pobox.com Sat Jan 24 08:41:22 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development Message-ID: <01BD28A4.4DA2BBA0@ppp-151-164-41-13.rcsntx.swbell.net> Max, I live near a consignment hardware/software store that usually has all of the things you're looking for at very reasonable prices. I've seen the Inside Mac series there for $15-$25. On occasion they have the Apple C development environment but they always have older copies of Think C (V4.0 thru V6.0) for about $15. They are willing to accept credit card phone orders and will ship to you. You can view their web site at: http://www.intex.net/software-etc/ If you are looking for something you don't see listed on the web site I'd suggest you give them a call as the web site only seems to list a small portion of what they have. Regards, Bob ---------- From: Max Eskin[SMTP:maxeskin@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 6:43 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Mac development I know that programming on the Macintosh is hell, but I would still like to try it, on an old one. Does anyone know where I could get Inside Macintosh for the Mac SE era? Also, what should I use to develop? I don't believe they used CodeWarrior all along! Didn't Apple sell an IDE? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jan 24 09:24:42 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980123174958.37e71b7a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <13326782864.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Me and jeff have come up with a solution: We're going to buy one of the 8e's, going half/half on it. Do they need wierd power or current-loop consoles or anything wierd like that? Oh, and chances are good it'll just stay here at work. My boss used to work on an 11/4x (He can't remember) running Ultrix (?? I thought that was for VAXen...) writing FORTRAN for it, and he's quite interested in me getting something running here... ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 24 11:27:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02 In-Reply-To: <34C94F53.37A78F60@rain.org> References: <34C8B1C7.C37267A1@elan.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980124112729.092fb1aa@intellistar.net> At 06:17 PM 1/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Ad wrote: > >> I'm looking for a disk called "Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02". >> To setup my old 286 with a Seagate type 42 HD > >While I don't think the setup disk is difficult to obtain for the IBM, there >is a shareware program called GSETUP31.EXE that will do the same thing, only >easier. It should be available at a number of places on the net. I have >used this program occassionally and it seems to work very nicely. FWIW, it >will not support the user defined disk drives. > > FWIW I'm pretty certain that the PC AT and AT setup did not support user defineable types ether. Joe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 24 10:39:38 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development In-Reply-To: <001201bd2865$a2d1ac60$64f8430a@kroma-i> from "kroma" at Jan 23, 98 08:16:00 pm Message-ID: <9801241639.AA18466@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980124/77608351/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jan 24 10:48:17 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available Message-ID: <19980124164817.19096.qmail@hotmail.com> From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jan 24 11:03:06 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available Message-ID: <01bd28e9$f0f63440$LocalHost@hotze> If you ask me, drugs are a BAD idea. I mean, if it's not you, then it's not you. I would rather be ME and be sitting in a basement, rather than some powder, effectively turning my body into a slave. Also, drugs are getting to be the past. Ask a group of junior-high schoolers about drugs. 9 out of 10 will say that they're a mistake. As for tobacco and alcohol, that's border-lined, but many are anti-tobacco, but alcohol.... that's kind of next-generation. We're getting there. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 7:49 PM Subject: Re: PDP-8/Es available >>From classiccmp-owner@u.washington.edu Sat Jan 24 00:03:17 1998 >>Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) >> by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with >SMTP >> id XAA16594; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:48:10 -0800 >>Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu >[140.142.33.5]) >> by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with >ESMTP >> id XAA20360 for ; Fri, 23 Jan >1998 23:48:04 -0800 >>Received: from news2.cnct.com (root@news2.cnct.com [165.254.118.91]) >> by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with >ESMTP >> id XAA21553 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 >23:48:02 -0800 >>Received: from cnct.com (gram@terra.cnct.com [165.254.118.73]) >> by news2.cnct.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02059 >> for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:50:28 -0500 >>Message-Id: <34C99D0D.E0B76342@cnct.com> >>Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:49:33 -0500 >>Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >>Precedence: bulk >>From: Ward Donald Griffiths III >>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >>Subject: Re: PDP-8/Es available >>References: <3.0.16.19980123181422.37e71016@ricochet.net> >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Sender: ward@news2.cnct.com >>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN >> >>Uncle Roger wrote: >>> >>> At 11:07 PM 1/21/98 -0800, you wrote: >>> >>I'll leave this public since it might be useful to someone...I'm 29 >now >>> >>but when I was 16 or 17 my parents expended GREAT energy trying to >get me >>> >>> >Well, I AM 17, and I'm up to 30 computers or so... Let me see if I >can >>> >remember them all, my web site is a partial listing. >>> >>> One other item that was pointed out to me in the collectibles forum >of >>> Compuserve -- teenagers who collect things rarely get into trouble. >You >>> don't see them spending money on drugs or liquor or whathaveyou, and >they >>> don't often end up in jail. (Yes, I'm an exception, but I wasn't >actively >>> collecting anything in high school.) >> >>What exception? In high school I actively collected science fiction >>books since computers weren't affordable yet to a high school kid -- I >>wore a slide rule on my belt because (1) I used it (2) that honestly >was >>the easiest way to carry a Pickett and (3) the HP-35 came out in my >>junior year of high school priced about $395.00 more than I had on >hand. >> >(SNIP) >If you ask me, it is better to have a social life and do drugs (though >I am firmly against drugs, tobacco, alcohol, and firearms) than not >do drugs and sit for years in the basement without seeing the light >of day. It seems to me that since we all die anyway, might as well >enjoy. I am not brave enough to take that approach, so I sit at my >computer all day (when I am not at school-I am in 9th grade). > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jan 24 11:17:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP8/E Message-ID: <19980124171731.12311.qmail@hotmail.com> My point was that people are not around to work at computers, which is a pretty useless activity in the scheme of things. What is really disturbing to me is that there are people, some my age, who would turn down a chance to interact with a person, versus a computer. AND they use Windows 95 or MacOS! The internet may become a problem psychologically soon. But this is all way off subject, so I have two questions: a)What is a DECstation 312? Is it just a clone? b)I heard that there was an 8088-based machine called an apricot, that had a GUI, voice recognition,etc.(according to the Machine Room). Is it what I think it is, or was it a piece of junk? Either way, how much would the portable go for? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Sat Jan 24 11:46:00 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available - status In-Reply-To: <13326782864.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: A status report... I have no further information about when the great haul is going to happen. Perhaps Monday a few more details will be sorted out. Also, quite a few people have asked for one of the machines. In fact, it seems to be more that when Jim initially posted the news! Anyway, three of the machines are spoken for, leaving two. One of the remainders _may_ be missing boards. I am not entirely certain how to handle all of the incoming requests and picking out two winners. I am leaning towards giving priority to those that originally responded to Jim's post, when we thought it would be only three machines. I wish there was one for every one of you, but there is not. Also, some have asked what will be available with this haul. In short, we are not sure! I can only say that I will do a good inventory once the stuff is in my possession. Leftovers will be posted to the list, and I can ship them out to interested parties. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 11:47:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!] In-Reply-To: <01bd28e9$f0f63440$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: Could we skip all this let's-get-to-know-each-other, touchie-feelie, anti-drug/booze/guns/rock'n'roll/astroturf, this-is-my-life stuff? I'm sure it's all very interesting, our nerd lives, but I'm sure there's an IRC chat room where you can openly discuss your life and views without going severely off-topic. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 24 13:31:18 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: <19980124164817.19096.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > If you ask me, it is better to have a social life and do drugs (though > I am firmly against drugs, tobacco, alcohol, and firearms) than not > do drugs and sit for years in the basement without seeing the light > of day. It seems to me that since we all die anyway, might as well When I was in the 9th grade...hmmm...that was like 14 years ago...eek... I think my goal in life wasn't so much to do drugs and have a social life. It was simply to have sex. Considering that a fair percentage of my friends ended up having unwanted pregnancies and now live miserable lives doing miserable little menial jobs (mind you, I respect someone who does a menial job well and works hard more than someone who glides through life without ever earning anything for themselves), I think I was probably better off in the basement. I'd rather have it the way things are...having a choice when to have children, get married etc etc etc. And the "cool" people at my high school ended up being losers while the "uncool" people ended up having productive jobs and quality lives. What makes you cool in high school makes you someone nobody wants to be around when you become an adult. Getting back to computers...computers aren't mind-numbing. They're creative. You can create art, mathematics, music, literature, new ideas in general, financial success and change the world with computers. What can you do with drugs? You can pretty much be someone nobody REALLY likes. Sure you'll be "popular" but only because others want to leech free drugs off you. They're total fair-weather friends and will screw you over the first chance they get. I was never into drugs but all the friends I had who did drugs drifted off into their little meaningless lives somewhere while the friends I made because of computers are still around...they help me move big computers and furniture, we go to hamfests together and we buy each other pizzas and beers all the time. As for my wife, she's beautiful and would never have married me if I'd been into drugs. She married me because I'm sweet, stable and loving...which is something you don't become by using drugs. Granted, there are alot of "computer divorces" but I've cultivated a sense of priorities that prevents that. As for computer collecting...man...it's a cheap, harmless hobby that gives you an appreciation for history, a wider world-view of how markets and business function and a sense of thriftiness that will serve you always. Drugs make you act like an idiot. They make you narrow-minded, rude, obnoxious, smelly and unintelligent. Anyway, I'm going to get back on topic now...I said my peace about computers and drugs. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 24 13:36:31 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Could we skip all this let's-get-to-know-each-other, touchie-feelie, > anti-drug/booze/guns/rock'n'roll/astroturf, this-is-my-life stuff? I'm > sure it's all very interesting, our nerd lives, but I'm sure there's an > IRC chat room where you can openly discuss your life and views without > going severely off-topic. Come on, Sam, give us a hug...we only want to nurture your inner child. Yeah, it's off-topic...but it's kind of not...we're talking about the kinds of attitudes that lead people to collect computers. Who knows? Maybe somebody's lurking and reading our postings and thinking, "Gee these are real folks into collecting computers. I guess it's not such a nerd hobby after all. Maybe I'll start collecting computers." You never know. At any rate, I think the thread is winding down. I'm dropping out of it cuz I've said my peace. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 24 12:50:41 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available Message-ID: <2a50ac07.34ca3803@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-24 13:41:02 EST, somebody rambled on and on about: << > If you ask me, it is better to have a social life and do drugs... >> ::major snippage!:: hmm, i thought we discussed collecting old computers.... can we get back on the PROPER topic? From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sat Jan 24 13:42:55 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34f041ae.652130133@hoser> Personally, I _enjoy_ hearing a little bit about the lives of people who share some of my interests. The world (including the government, your employer, your friends, etc.) tends to pigeon-hole us enough without our voluntarily doing it to ourselves. Yes, I'm on this list because I enjoy classic computers, but I also enjoy the _people_ who are into them, and what they do when they're not "hiding in the basement". Granted, I jumped into a discussion when I first joined this list a few months ago and made some comments in ignorance that probably got me on a few "dumbass" lists, but I hope I've redeemed myself in some small way since then. I'm sorry if this terribly "off-topic" post annoys anyone, but since we're all "just folks" here, I hope it will be forgiven. I'm tired of compartmentalizing myself to meet other people's expectations. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Sat Jan 24 14:00:13 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available Message-ID: <199801242000.MAA16490@ptld1.ptld.uswest.net> >If you ask me, it is better to have a social life and do drugs (though >I am firmly against drugs, tobacco, alcohol, and firearms) than not >do drugs and sit for years in the basement without seeing the light >of day. It seems to me that since we all die anyway, might as well >enjoy. I am not brave enough to take that approach, so I sit at my >computer all day (when I am not at school-I am in 9th grade). Drugs suck... They are screaming their heads off trying to legalize marijuana when they should be getting rid of tobacco... My dad ended up in the hospital getting a quadruple bypass surgery, the only reason it wasn't worse than that is that he had stopped smoking about a year before that when he had a heart attack. Although eating fast food most of the time probably didn't help... I LIKE sitting in a basement all day... I wake up around noon, go check my email, grab something to eat, go try to figure out where I put that repair manual for whichever computer is broken today, eat a snack, try to find parts to repair the broken computer, eat lunch, try to fix the computer and break it again, surf the web for a couple of hours trying to find someting about my broken computer, eat dinner, go to sleep at 3am... OK, so I'm not quite THAT far gone, but you get the idea. I also volunteer at the local science museum once a week in the computer lab(30-odd computers and a sleeping System/34 in the corner), and I might even start working on the submarine parked outside... So I'm not in the basement all day. In the summer I ride around the neighborhood on my bike for a while, although it gets pretty boring. I think it's better to spend the summer in a nice cool basement and only go outside in the morning when it's cooler, or maybe just in the spring and fall. And then spend half the winter inside sitting in front of a nice big fire. And the only reason I get away with this isthat I'm home schooled... Been doing that for a while, but the first year was the worst. The entire year my mom sat there torturing me with multiplication tables... I hated it, but it worked. Right now I'm refusing to go near anything that hasto do with algebra(keep getting stuck on a few things), but all the stuff that interests me(quantum whatchamacallits, trig, and all that other fancy stuff) you need to get past algebra first... And that's where I've been stuck for the past two or three years. I HATE ALGEBRA!!! And learning morse code so I can get a ham radio license is the perfect excuse to stay away from it... :-) Well, I can't stay in the basement much longer, I need to go get supplies to keep my computers running! Well, I guess I'd better go get a job so I can buy the stuff before my computers completely fall apart. Anyone sick of reading my email yet? I am... I don't think we could get much more off topic than this. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From kroma at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 24 14:26:00 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development Message-ID: <008d01bd2906$529ff840$64f8430a@kroma-i> >This, I'm stumped by. Is it supposed to be BinHex? Sorry about that. For some reason this was MIME'd. Try this address at Apple to look up info: http://til.info.apple.com/ -- Kirk From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Jan 24 12:29:37 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 304 References: <199801240802.AAA17003@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34CA3311.7144@goldrush.com> From: Cord Coslor To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Some classic finds! Message-ID: <34C915B4.68900862@navix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just tried her e-mail address, and it doesn't seem to be correct. That is what she told me, though. Anyway, the phone # is correct. I will try to post the correct e-mail address for her soon!. CORD Cord Coslor wrote: > Today a lady in SE Oklahoma called me, and says she just picked up quite > a few things at a local vo-tech auction. [snip] > 3) Some type of Commodore suitcase portable???? That is a Commodore SX 64, a portable (read 'luggable') 64 with built-in 5" color monitor and 1541 disk drive. Quite a handy unit.... :) 001010010010001010100101010100100100100101010101011100101001 From: "Max Eskin" Subject: Mac development > I know that programming on the Macintosh is hell, but I would still > like to try it, on an old one. Does anyone know where I could get > Inside Macintosh for the Mac SE era? Also, what should I use to develop? > I don't believe they used CodeWarrior all along! Didn't Apple sell an > IDE? Well there ia also a great BASIC for the Mac, Future BASIC, by Staz Software, It can run under system 6 with 1 meg of RAM and has the runtime modules to make such things as applications, cdevs, inits, etc. Supports probably all the system functions in Inside Macintosh... (lists most of em too). Good documentation (large manuals), help on the internet, and can make good commercial quality stuff... It is still hell though, alot of memory management, but it is for a good reason. New, it is about $200.00, but worth it if you want to do some serious programming. Back then (SE times) it was probably Think C, which I belive is now owned by Symantec.. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jan 24 16:10:09 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Mac development In-Reply-To: <9801241639.AA18466@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 24, 98 08:39:38 am Message-ID: <199801242210.RAA27781@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tim Shoppa once stated: > > Kroma wrote: > > > VHJ5IHRoaXMgYWRkcmVzcyBhdCBBcHBsZSB0byBsb29rIHVwIGluZm86IA0KDQpodHRwOi8vdGls > > LmluZm8uYXBwbGUuY29tLw0KDQogICAgICAgIC0tIEtpcmsNCg== > > This, I'm stumped by. Is it supposed to be BinHex? > It looks like a mangled ASCII map of Austraila. Oh wait, wrong group. -spc (Checking the headers, it's encoded using base64. My guess, it's a URL that's been encoded to protect it ... ) From sup8pdct at mail.cth.com.au Sat Jan 24 16:50:46 1998 From: sup8pdct at mail.cth.com.au (James Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: diskdrive Message-ID: <34CA7046.34BF@mail.cth.com.au> Hi. Was just woundering if you still have the indusgt for sale. It was a little while ago. From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 17:13:35 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > Yeah, it's off-topic...but it's kind of not...we're talking about the > kinds of attitudes that lead people to collect computers. Who knows? No you're not. For the past 5 postings you've been talking about yourself, your wife, your job, and your attitudes on drugs and pre-marital sex. Now what the hell does that have to do with how you got into collecting computers? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 17:16:10 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: <34f041ae.652130133@hoser> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > Personally, I _enjoy_ hearing a little bit about the lives of people > who share some of my interests. The world (including the government, I don't, especially not in a discussion group that I read to discuss collecting and doing stuff with old computers. > your employer, your friends, etc.) tends to pigeon-hole us enough > without our voluntarily doing it to ourselves. Yes, I'm on this list > because I enjoy classic computers, but I also enjoy the _people_ who > are into them, and what they do when they're not "hiding in the > basement". Granted, I jumped into a discussion when I first joined Then go start a chat room on AOL to discuss this. > I hope it will be forgiven. I'm tired of compartmentalizing myself to > meet other people's expectations. Well, you came onto classiccmp to compartmentalize yourself into discussing classic computers, hence the name of the list. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jan 24 17:16:26 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Now, back to topic... Message-ID: <13326868740.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Yes, I know I started that mess :) Sorry. I just picked up a MicroVAX 2000. Little bitty box. It's portable, it even has a handle. Runx VAX/VMS 5.4. I'll drop NetBSD on here and have it up in no time at all. Or, I may keep VMS... ------- From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 17:21:25 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: diskdrive In-Reply-To: <34CA7046.34BF@mail.cth.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, James Bradford wrote: > Hi. Was just woundering if you still have the indusgt for sale. It was a > little while ago. Where do these damn posts keep coming from? And why do people think they are sending e-mail to some dood when they post to classiccmp? It would be nice to send the FAQ to anyone posting to the list for the first time and bounce their post back to them automatically so they can re-write it if necessary and then submit it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 17:27:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: I just picked-up an IBM Portable Personal Computer (Model 5155, I believe its basically a portable XT with dual 5.25" drives and a bulit-in monitor, 512K). [Hey Roger, it's got a handle!] I was also able to find the Operations Guide for it at another place. Very cool. QUESTION: Does anyone know how many of these were produced? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From zmerch at northernway.net Sat Jan 24 18:42:24 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Improve your socialization skills! In-Reply-To: References: <19980124164817.19096.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124184224.00943d60@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Wirehead Prime typed: > Max Eskin wrote: >> If you ask me, it is better to have a social life and do drugs (though >> I am firmly against drugs, tobacco, alcohol, and firearms) [snip] Uh... right. :-( How can you be so firmly against drugs, etc... and condone their use? That's highly illogical. [snip] > re: cool - vs. - uncool I agree totally. >As for my wife, she's beautiful and would never have married me if I'd >been into drugs. She married me because I'm sweet, stable and >loving...which is something you don't become by using drugs. Granted, >there are alot of "computer divorces" but I've cultivated a sense of >priorities that prevents that. Same with my wife, except: I *won* her heart in part due to my computers (which _really_ helps my argument for the full basement... ;-) and because I could provide a stable home life, etc. Let's take a vote: My dad is a trucker. He works very hard, was a good provider. Never home tho. Damn near got divorced. My dad's middle brother - trucker. Never home. Divorced. (Remarried the same woman, but...) My dad's youngest brother - an engineer on the Great Lakes ships. 1000 foot freighters don't dock on your driveway. Thankfully, no plans for splitsville yet, but he never sees his 1-1/2 year old girl, either. My brother - a weldor. (uh, yea - that spelling *is* correct. ;-) The "welder" is just the juicebox.) He works for a company that paints watertowers - very dangerous work. Also, how many watertowers do you have in your town that *need* repair? Marital Status: Divorced. All of these people said I was foolish for "playing with those stupid toys" instead of learning to "work like a man." Yes, I may spend more time in my basement than all of the above combined, but my family is just upstairs where I can see them -- or they can come down to see me. I come home every evening (except for overtime or poker night) and of all mentioned, I have the happiest home existance. Now how's the geek? >Anyway, I'm going to get back on topic now... As shall I - and the whole reason for this e-mail: A reminder that 18/19 April 1998 there will be a CoCoFest in Elgin Illinois (NW of Chicago). (I believe it's the 8th annual "Last" CoCoFest ;-) Everyone with (or who likes) a CoCo come on out of the basement, bring your CoCos with you, and head on over for a weekend of fresh air (unless it's a southeast wind... ) and socialization with both carbon and silicon-based life forms! Want more info? Email me at the address below. Yea, yea, yea... I'll shut up now! Keep workin' on those Facial Tans! (Who needs MPR-2, anyway? ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 24 14:28:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980124112729.092fb1aa@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 24, 98 11:27:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 438 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980124/7ff5f2e6/attachment.ksh From cgregory at lrbcg.com Sat Jan 24 17:52:39 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: <027001bd2923$28c909e0$b727a2ce@cliffgre> I don't know, Sam, but as one who does a bit of IBM collecting, there seems to be many more 5140s floating around out there than the 5155s. I have a perfect 5140 in my collection, but the 5155 has eluded me (so far). Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 7:32 PM Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer > >I just picked-up an IBM Portable Personal Computer (Model 5155, I believe >its basically a portable XT with dual 5.25" drives and a bulit-in monitor, >512K). [Hey Roger, it's got a handle!] I was also able to find the >Operations Guide for it at another place. Very cool. > >QUESTION: Does anyone know how many of these were produced? > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > From bmpete at swbell.net Sat Jan 24 18:05:19 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Some classic finds! In-Reply-To: <34C90521.A7001812@navix.net> References: <34C90521.A7001812@navix.net> Message-ID: <34ca8176.15278816@mail.swbell.net> On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:01:22 -0800, you said: >Today a lady in SE Oklahoma called me, and says she just picked up quite >a few things at a local vo-tech auction. I will pass this information >onto you folks, as I'm waiting to find out some shipping charges from >you. Where in SE OK? I live in Oklahoma City... _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 24 18:48:10 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Now, back to topic... In-Reply-To: <13326868740.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >Yes, I know I started that mess :) Sorry. > >I just picked up a MicroVAX 2000. Little bitty box. It's portable, it even >has a handle. Runx VAX/VMS 5.4. I'll drop NetBSD on here and have it up >in no time at all. Or, I may keep VMS... >------- I'm of the distinct impression that the 2000 isn't an easy machine to get NetBSD up and running on. I spent three long nights trying to get everything set up so I could netboot NetBSD on mine, with no luck. Not quite sure why I wasted so much time on this, since I want to run VMS. I get the impression the easy way to do it would be to load the Hard Drive on a full blown system, then put the HD in the 2000. Admitadly I'm not sure if my problem was the machines I tried to used to netboot off of, my Linux server, and a Pentium running OPENSTEP. Or if there was something wrong with the 2000, or if it was something else. Personally I got my 2000 to format disks for my larger systems anyway. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From mallison at konnections.com Sat Jan 24 19:05:19 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: Message-ID: <34CA8FCF.582E@konnections.com> Sam: At least 2 were made, since I found one. Mine was in excellent shape, as if it hadn't got around much. I've had it apart about 10 times. What you really need is the driver to pull the screws out of the front. Mine works well, though. I think I'll try dumping a hard drive in it. Lemme know if you find any manuals... -Mike Allison Sam Ismail wrote: > > I just picked-up an IBM Portable Personal Computer (Model 5155, I believe > its basically a portable XT with dual 5.25" drives and a bulit-in monitor, > 512K). [Hey Roger, it's got a handle!] I was also able to find the > Operations Guide for it at another place. Very cool. > > QUESTION: Does anyone know how many of these were produced? > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sat Jan 24 17:34:05 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: toner cleaning Message-ID: <199801250103.RAA24176@mxu2.u.washington.edu> When I usta repair Xerox machines, I used trichloroethane to get rid of it. Do NOT put trichlor on hot metal (such as a fuser), or else you'll end up with phosgene gas, which is -- shall we say -- slightlu harmful. (It was one of the war gasses used during WWI). I've heard that trichlor was outlawed, but I still see it around. My favorite all-around solvent is MEK, but I haven't tried it on toner. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sat Jan 24 17:51:44 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Need Keyboard for DEC VT-220 Message-ID: <199801250103.RAA05604@mx4.u.washington.edu> I think I have a couple if you still need 'em. manney@nwohio.com > Also got a VT220 without a keyboard. Does anyone have a working keyboard > they're willing to get rid of for the cost of shipping? From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sat Jan 24 19:06:37 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: Cleaning out my storage room... Message-ID: <199801250114.RAA29902@mx3.u.washington.edu> > So, that's could settle your doubts. I didn't have any doubts -- I just wanted it. How much ya want for it? (if you'll send me yer e-mail addr, we can negotiate in private.) > What's up with your cataloging your pile of motherboards going so > far? Ick. No time manney@nwohio.com From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 24 19:23:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: CoCofest conflict (was Re: Improve your socialization skills!) References: <19980124164817.19096.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.3.32.19980124184224.00943d60@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <34CA940C.2CB12644@cnct.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Uh... right. :-( > How can you be so firmly against drugs, etc... and condone their use? > That's highly illogical. The keyword is freedom of choice, but that's off-topic here - that's for the libertarian mailing lists that constitute the other 70% of my inbox. > A reminder that 18/19 April 1998 there will be a CoCoFest in Elgin Illinois > (NW of Chicago). (I believe it's the 8th annual "Last" CoCoFest ;-) > Everyone with (or who likes) a CoCo come on out of the basement, bring your > CoCos with you, and head on over for a weekend of fresh air (unless it's a > southeast wind... ) and socialization with both carbon and silicon-based > life forms! Want more info? Email me at the address below. Why does the good stuff have to happen at the same time? That's the same weekend as the Trenton Computer Festival about an hour drive from here -- my fiancee's choice is obvious. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 24 19:47:13 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: <2624b9bb.34ca99a4@aol.com> i havent had any problems finding either a 5140 or 5155. i have two portable pcs and one convertible which i traded a nic for. i have seen 5155s at several hamfests, and even saw two at a hock shop for $150 each I have a book that says the 5155 was "rare" but i disagree. i'd much rather love to find a complete 3270pc or a xt370 or even an at370. david In a message dated 98-01-24 20:06:45 EST, somebody got back to topic and wrote: << I don't know, Sam, but as one who does a bit of IBM collecting, there seems to be many more 5140s floating around out there than the 5155s. I have a perfect 5140 in my collection, but the 5155 has eluded me (so far). Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com >> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 24 20:05:14 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: new additions: macs! Message-ID: <6647fb43.34ca9ddc@aol.com> a friend and i lurk a local forsale newsgroup, and we picked up a bunch of b+w mac goodies. we got: 3 page monitors, not tested. two use a db9 connector and the other uses a db15. two are radius, one is an off brand. i've no way of testing these. platinum plus with 4 meg works good. i noticed the system board on this mac has 4 sockets with metal locking tabs, instead of the plastic ones which break way too easy. this must be a later model board that my original platinum plus i have. mac 512k model. boots ok, but when accessing a disk with the noisy floppy drive, the screen narrows and gets a sad mac with f0064 or similar. sounds like a dodgy power supply for which i have a spare. mac se shell in excellent shape. i might swap my beat up se into this better shell. two mac 512k machines with something interesting called a hyperdrive. it's a daughterboard that runs a mfm drive crammed in behind the tube. one 512k is missing the drives, the other is complete. the drive is partitioned into 3 partitions. clever idea. also got some 400k floppy drives and an apple personal modem which plugs into the wall and is the platinum colour. model a9m0334. 300, 1200 or 2400 bps? david From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sat Jan 24 20:18:50 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: <01bd2937$93072120$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >I don't know, Sam, but as one who does a bit of IBM collecting, there seems >to be many more 5140s floating around out there than the 5155s. I have a >perfect 5140 in my collection, but the 5155 has eluded me (so far). > I know what a 5155 is, I have two of those, but what is a 5140? From mallison at konnections.com Sat Jan 24 20:26:32 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: <2624b9bb.34ca99a4@aol.com> Message-ID: <34CAA2D8.2A42@konnections.com> I paid the same for my Portable as my 3270pc (complete w/monitor) -- 15.00 Don't feel bad. I recently pulled down a good little Compaq Portable III lunchbox w/286 & 287 for 6 bucks... Utah sucks, except for its thrift store computer shopping.... I watched 2 rainbow 100s and a decmate II sit for months. I would have bought the decmate, but there seemed a small short in the power from the cpu to the monitor. As it is one of those integrated power cords, I figured I'd probably electrocute myself dickin with it. -Mike SUPRDAVE wrote: > > i havent had any problems finding either a 5140 or 5155. i have two portable > pcs and one convertible which i traded a nic for. i have seen 5155s at several > hamfests, and even saw two at a hock shop for $150 each I have a book that > says the 5155 was "rare" but i disagree. i'd much rather love to find a > complete 3270pc or a xt370 or even an at370. > > david > > In a message dated 98-01-24 20:06:45 EST, somebody got back to topic and > wrote: > > << I don't know, Sam, but as one who does a bit of IBM collecting, there seems > to be many more 5140s floating around out there than the 5155s. I have a > perfect 5140 in my collection, but the 5155 has eluded me (so far). > > Cliff Gregory > cgregory@lrbcg.com >> From mallison at konnections.com Sat Jan 24 20:30:12 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:25 2005 Subject: new additions: macs! References: <6647fb43.34ca9ddc@aol.com> Message-ID: <34CAA3B4.7669@konnections.com> Dave: Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah still has MacWrite and MacPaint for the 512 and I think they have an agreement allowing them to produce copies of MAC OS 3.2 on 400k floppies. They did for me, anyway. Just copied it. Good on them. They have a page, I just dunno what it is. -Mike SUPRDAVE wrote: > > a friend and i lurk a local forsale newsgroup, and we picked up a bunch of b+w > mac goodies. we got: > > 3 page monitors, not tested. two use a db9 connector and the other uses a > db15. two are radius, one is an off brand. i've no way of testing these. > > platinum plus with 4 meg works good. i noticed the system board on this mac > has 4 sockets with metal locking tabs, instead of the plastic ones which break > way too easy. this must be a later model board that my original platinum plus > i have. > mac 512k model. boots ok, but when accessing a disk with the noisy floppy > drive, the screen narrows and gets a sad mac with f0064 or similar. sounds > like a dodgy power supply for which i have a spare. > mac se shell in excellent shape. i might swap my beat up se into this better > shell. > two mac 512k machines with something interesting called a hyperdrive. it's a > daughterboard that runs a mfm drive crammed in behind the tube. one 512k is > missing the drives, the other is complete. the drive is partitioned into 3 > partitions. clever idea. > also got some 400k floppy drives and an apple personal modem which plugs into > the wall and is the platinum colour. model a9m0334. 300, 1200 or 2400 bps? > > david From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sat Jan 24 15:35:55 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02 In-Reply-To: <34C94F53.37A78F60@rain.org> Message-ID: <199801250230.VAA23837@mail.cgocable.net> > Ad wrote: > > > I'm looking for a disk called "Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02". > > To setup my old 286 with a Seagate type 42 HD > > While I don't think the setup disk is difficult to obtain for the IBM, there > is a shareware program called GSETUP31.EXE that will do the same thing, only > easier. It should be available at a number of places on the net. I have > used this program occassionally and it seems to work very nicely. FWIW, it > will not support the user defined disk drives. > Yeah to everything, simtel sites should have several little programs that allows configuring MOST machines that did not have access to CMOS settings. Oh, The late type 2 AT and XT 286 motherboards have late bios that supports 1.44 floppy drive. The offical ibm diagnostic disk do not have this option within the s/w. Again, the whole line of early (pre ps/2) 286 machines had 3 types of bios as well, first one was 17 (I think) hd specs enteries so on until total of 46 types. Compaq pre to late 386/486 models requires special disk to access cmos. After this point, on those machines, on screen shows upper left, blinking underlined cursor moves over to a blinking block cursor at upper right for a moment then back to original. Between that at that point hit F10 key to get into cmos setup and some is user-defineable as well. Late PS/2 equipped with IML feature and later ones to enter setup screen, hit alt+ctrl+ins. Early PS/1's Must have those setup files at least 2 files for 2 different functions on a bootable disk and manually start it. (weirdo, kluge thing.) Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From mallison at konnections.com Sat Jan 24 20:46:27 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: <199801250239.VAA29435@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <34CAA783.210E@konnections.com> I didn't even know you could run a monitor on 12v. Learn somethin new... Is that the same on NeXT Monitors with a similar setup? Do you know? -Mike jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > I paid the same for my Portable as my 3270pc (complete w/monitor) -- > > 15.00 > > > > Don't feel bad. I recently pulled down a good little Compaq Portable > > III lunchbox w/286 & 287 for 6 bucks... > > > > Utah sucks, except for its thrift store computer shopping.... > > > > I watched 2 rainbow 100s and a decmate II sit for months. I would have > > bought the decmate, but there seemed a small short in the power from the > > cpu to the monitor. As it is one of those integrated power cords, I > > figured I'd probably electrocute myself dickin with it. > > Via 15pin D-shell connectors? > The monitor gets the 12v juice from the pc as you suspected. That > will not bite you! :) > > Jason D. > > > > -Mike > > > > SUPRDAVE wrote: > > > > > > i havent had any problems finding either a 5140 or 5155. i have two portable > > > pcs and one convertible which i traded a nic for. i have seen 5155s at several > > > hamfests, and even saw two at a hock shop for $150 each I have a book that > > > says the 5155 was "rare" but i disagree. i'd much rather love to find a > > > complete 3270pc or a xt370 or even an at370. > > > > > > david > > > > > > In a message dated 98-01-24 20:06:45 EST, somebody got back to topic and > > > wrote: > > > > > > << I don't know, Sam, but as one who does a bit of IBM collecting, there seems > > > to be many more 5140s floating around out there than the 5155s. I have a > > > perfect 5140 in my collection, but the 5155 has eluded me (so far). > > > > > > Cliff Gregory > > > cgregory@lrbcg.com >> > > > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca > Pero, Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 24 20:46:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <34CA8FCF.582E@konnections.com> from "Mike Allison" at Jan 24, 98 06:05:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1009 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980125/23a39516/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 24 20:51:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <34CAA783.210E@konnections.com> from "Mike Allison" at Jan 24, 98 07:46:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1025 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980125/05041dc3/attachment.ksh From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 24 22:45:37 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Yeah, it's off-topic...but it's kind of not...we're talking about the > > kinds of attitudes that lead people to collect computers. Who knows? > > No you're not. For the past 5 postings you've been talking about > yourself, your wife, your job, and your attitudes on drugs and pre-marital > sex. Now what the hell does that have to do with how you got into > collecting computers? I've been talking about how my hobby of collecting computers has made my life better so Mr. Seagrave would have positive things to tell his parents so they might hopefully take a more positive stance toward his collecting computers. Why don't you get off my back??? :( Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From aaron at orr.wfi-inc.com Sat Jan 24 21:59:06 1998 From: aaron at orr.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Subscribing to the list.... Message-ID: <199801250359.TAA22863@orr.wfi-inc.com> Hi, I saw the archives of the list and was wondering if it's open or not, and how to subscribe if so. Thanks, Aaron Finney From whunt at panacom.com Sat Jan 24 22:27:56 1998 From: whunt at panacom.com (Wayne Hunt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Okimate 10 Message-ID: I would like to inquire about the printer's cable connection. Will it accept a standard centronics cable? I would appreciate any information that you can give me regarding this matter or any information that you may have about the availability of an Okimate 10 module that would allow connection with a centronics cable. --Thank You-- whunt From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 23:02:16 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <027001bd2923$28c909e0$b727a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Cliff Gregory wrote: > I don't know, Sam, but as one who does a bit of IBM collecting, there seems > to be many more 5140s floating around out there than the 5155s. I have a > perfect 5140 in my collection, but the 5155 has eluded me (so far). Hmmm...what's a 5140? The one I happened upon is in great condition. A little dirty, but nothing a simple cleaning won't undo. One of the flip-down keyboard stems is broken off, but other than that it is cosmetically perfect. I believe I may be missing the back cover, if this system did in fact have one that slips over the connectors on the back (it looks like it did). It boots just fine and shows 512K of RAM, seeks on the drive for a moment and then jumps right into MS BASIC. Opening it up I (which is nice and easy) I find: Mostly pretty standard equipment: floppy controller, serial card, parallel card Color Graphics Controller 256K RAM card (with some very interesting looking RAM chips...1" x 1" squares with what looks like an aluminum cover on top) LOTS of sheilding (in fact, everything is sheilded, the power supply, the display and even the cards are enclosed in a sheilding panel) IBM didn't really try that hard with this. It's basically a desktop PC machine with the disk drives squeezed over to make room for the screen. But it has a handle! BTW, I paid $10 for it at a thrift store. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 23:06:13 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <34CA8FCF.582E@konnections.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > At least 2 were made, since I found one. I've run into two others before but declined on them. One was really just a shell (had the display but no innards). The other was non-functional and the price was too high (probably > $25). > Mine was in excellent shape, as if it hadn't got around much. I've had > it apart about 10 times. What you really need is the driver to pull the > screws out of the front. The screws in mine accomodate both hex and flathead drivers. No big deal to get it open. > Lemme know if you find any manuals... I found the Guide to Operations for it. Has the basic info about it...system configuration, specs, basic operating procedures, etc. I've only skimmed through the manual. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sat Jan 24 23:09:11 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <2624b9bb.34ca99a4@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > i havent had any problems finding either a 5140 or 5155. i have two portable > pcs and one convertible which i traded a nic for. i have seen 5155s at several > hamfests, and even saw two at a hock shop for $150 each I have a book that > says the 5155 was "rare" but i disagree. i'd much rather love to find a > complete 3270pc or a xt370 or even an at370. Hmmm...now where did I pass up on that 3270PC? Or did I get it after all? I can't remember. Why are those so rare? And I guess the XT370 and AT370 were machines with 370 emulator boards in them to act as terminals to a 370 mainframe? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From mallison at konnections.com Sat Jan 24 23:43:41 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: Message-ID: <34CAD10D.1C30@konnections.com> I'm not that impressed with the 3270pc. I bought it because I wanted stuff out of it, but it was all pretty much proprietary (and covered in dust and old) lots of wire wrapping and jumpers, so I just left it alone. Now I use it to test Linux-16. The REAL question is, if IBM used these as terminals which could run software, what did they have in them allowing them to use the network ports? I mean that was 1984, DOS might have had some hooks, but they would have sold it. Were these running XENIX/86, CPM86, or what? Anyone know? Anyone have the software... *|* --- ....real cool, man " -Mike Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > > > i'd much rather love to find a > > complete 3270pc or a xt370 or even an at370. > > Hmmm...now where did I pass up on that 3270PC? Or did I get it after all? > I can't remember. Why are those so rare? > > And I guess the XT370 and AT370 were machines with 370 emulator boards in > them to act as terminals to a 370 mainframe? > > Sam From william at ans.net Sat Jan 24 23:57:30 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <34CAD10D.1C30@konnections.com> Message-ID: > The REAL question is, if IBM used these as terminals which could run > software, what did they have in them allowing them to use the network > ports? I mean that was 1984, DOS might have had some hooks, but they > would have sold it. Somewhere, back at the homestead, I still have a bunch of xt3270 stuff (software, manuals, etc.). I suppose I ought to go fetch it. These really did not have to support "real" networking. In fact, they fit somewhere between a network and a dumb terminal. Most mainframes talk to terminals on a block basis, unlike minis that talk character by character. The mainframe's terminals (in this case, a 3270 like device) acted as a smart terminal, taking over a lot of the text inputting/formatting tasks. The XT3270 does this - it just uses the XT as a brain. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mallison at konnections.com Sun Jan 25 00:26:50 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: Message-ID: <34CADB2A.4F3@konnections.com> So, basically, they just used a terminal program, and rather than run it through a serial port, they just routd it through a little faster coax connection. Probably the board is just as (un)sophisticated as a serial board compared to a network board. Still, I wouldn't really want the 3270 on a network, but rather use it as a terminal on UNIX or a DOS machine.... A 8088 is still pretty damn smart... -Mike William Donzelli wrote: > > > The REAL question is, if IBM used these as terminals which could run > > software, what did they have in them allowing them to use the network > > ports? I mean that was 1984, DOS might have had some hooks, but they > > would have sold it. > > Somewhere, back at the homestead, I still have a bunch of xt3270 stuff > (software, manuals, etc.). I suppose I ought to go fetch it. > > These really did not have to support "real" networking. In fact, they fit > somewhere between a network and a dumb terminal. Most mainframes talk to > terminals on a block basis, unlike minis that talk character by character. > The mainframe's terminals (in this case, a 3270 like device) acted as a > smart terminal, taking over a lot of the text inputting/formatting tasks. > The XT3270 does this - it just uses the XT as a brain. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 25 01:24:23 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: diskdrive Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980125012559.006e4390@netpath.net> At 03:21 PM 1/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, James Bradford wrote: >Where do these damn posts keep coming from? And why do people think they >are sending e-mail to some dood when they post to classiccmp? I think that's how I got subscribed to this list. I came across an obscure reference to it on a web page and posted a message to it, pre-apologizing for posting, and asking how to subscribe. Someone immediately helped me out, and I'm now on the list. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 25 01:24:22 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Off topic Topicalities from the Deep! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980125011944.006cae80@netpath.net> Isn't complaining that something is off-topic be off-topic in itself? Wouldn't that complaining be better directed to the list admin or to the off-topician themselves? That's my insight on the matter, on-topic, off-topic, under-topic, et al. At 09:47 AM 1/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >sure it's all very interesting, our nerd lives, but I'm sure there's an >IRC chat room where you can openly discuss your life and views without >going severely off-topic. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 25 01:24:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: new additions: macs! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980125013426.006c90d8@netpath.net> At 07:30 PM 1/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >Dave: > >Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah still has MacWrite and MacPaint for >the 512 and I think they have an agreement allowing them to produce >copies of MAC OS 3.2 on 400k floppies. They did for me, anyway. Just >copied it. Good on them. They have a page, I just dunno what it is. You can also find System .97 and some other older systems and software to run on them available on some page out there. Do a search on classic+mac+software and it should pop up towards the top. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From Squest at cris.com Sun Jan 25 01:49:45 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Nerd social life (was) Re: PDP-8/Es available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > When I was in the 9th grade...hmmm...that was like 14 years ago...eek... > I think my goal in life wasn't so much to do drugs and have a social > life. It was simply to have sex. That was the goal of the druggies as well. :) Also the goal of those like myself, druggie computer geeks. ;) When I was 14, I was a junior in high school. Too young physically to befriend many of my classmates who were one or two years older than myself, and too old mentally to tolerate the kids my own age in junior high. :-/ Needless to say I didn't have much luck in the sex department. > Considering that a fair percentage of my friends ended up having unwanted > pregnancies and now live miserable lives doing miserable little menial > jobs (mind you, I respect someone who does a menial job well and works > hard more than someone who glides through life without ever earning > anything for themselves), I think I was probably better off in the basement. What I did was hang in the basement until I got a car, then I spent all my time working and hanging with my friends. I got the best of both worlds, and wouldn't do it any differently if I could go around once more and do it all again. However, even tho I know now that I could have had the best girls if I were x-ian and preppie, I would be the same old pot smoking longhair nerd that I was, reading 15# textbooks on physics. In order to have the "good life" I would have had to sell out on all of my beliefs, and I'm proud of _myself_ for sticking to who and what I am. > I'd rather have it the way things are...having a choice when to have > children, get married etc etc etc. And the "cool" people at my high > school ended up being losers while the "uncool" people ended up having > productive jobs and quality lives. What makes you cool in high school > makes you someone nobody wants to be around when you become an adult. What about the cool people who were also computer geeks? I wasn't alone, there were lots of shy, quiet, chess playing pot smokers back then! > Getting back to computers...computers aren't mind-numbing. They're > creative. You can create art, mathematics, music, literature, new ideas > in general, financial success and change the world with computers. What > can you do with drugs? You can pretty much be someone nobody REALLY > likes. Sure you'll be "popular" but only because others want to leech > free drugs off you. They're total fair-weather friends and will screw > you over the first chance they get. This is true, drug friends are not TRUE friends. However, I always knew the difference. So do most druggies, really. > I was never into drugs but all the friends I had who did drugs drifted off > into their little meaningless lives somewhere while the friends I made > because of computers are still around...they help me move big computers > and furniture, we go to hamfests together and we buy each other pizzas > and beers all the time. I'm a druggie (still, kinda got back into it again somewhat) so what does that make me? True I have a meaningless life, but don't all atheists? I mean, to realize you are a fluke, and have no right to be alive, that you parasitically suck off the rest of the life of the planet, and that you produce air and water pollution, these things make one feel kinda low, you know? X-ians don't have that worry, "god made 'em", thus they have meaning, purpose (albeit illusionary), and a reason to get up in the morning. I can see the advantage for religion, psychologically that is. > As for my wife, she's beautiful and would never have married me if I'd > been into drugs. She married me because I'm sweet, stable and > loving...which is something you don't become by using drugs. Granted, > there are alot of "computer divorces" but I've cultivated a sense of > priorities that prevents that. Yes, she is beautiful, and sweet, and no I'm not going to try to steal her, because if I could, I wouldn't want her, you know? I doubt I could, so don't fear. You are a very lucky man Tony, KNOW THAT! You're also right about druggie girls, they are sluts, but that's all I have the choice of it seems anymore. :( Cathy said the other day that she wants to marry me after she sleeps with all the rest of the guys she wants to have a fling with. Once that's out of her system, she wants to settle down with me. She thinks it's a "done deal". :-/ I haven't had the heart to tell her she's wrong, that I'd never marry a girl like her. > As for computer collecting...man...it's a cheap, harmless hobby that > gives you an appreciation for history, a wider world-view of how markets > and business function and a sense of thriftiness that will serve you > always. Drugs make you act like an idiot. They make you narrow-minded, > rude, obnoxious, smelly and unintelligent. Can I quote you on that? BTW, is that how you feel about me, narrow minded, rude, obnoxious, smelly, unintelligent? I use drugs for enlightenment and to give consciousness a bit of variety. You know what I see, someone who's never tried drugs so they don't know what "mind expanding" means. :) If you really are the creative, intelligent and curious person that I have known you to be, then the first time you drop acid, you'd see what I mean, and you'd want to explore this new REALITY. The first time I took drugs, it was heroin, given to me by my best friend's brother, just back from Vietnam with the addiction. I was 10 years old. I asked him "what does it feel like" because I noticed (observation) that he went from looking angry and pissy to very happy, and peaceful, thus I asked him what it felt like. He showed me. I am still grateful, even tho the PRICE OF DRUGS and the POLICE OPINION ON DRUGS did ruin my life. Not the use, the price, and with the loss of my high pay job, ability to afford them, and when caught, the punishment of the cops. > Anyway, I'm going to get back on topic now...I said my peace about > computers and drugs. I myself am a tweak freak and a tripper. I bet you'd be too, were you to sample every drug out there, you'd probably settle on stimulants and hallucinogens like I have. Stimulants so you can keep going, without need of sleep for those non-stop projects and hallucinogens to become that little kid again, and to explore everything anew. Once on alt.drugs I posted that hallucinogens (LSD, psilocybin, etc.) make me feel like a little kid, the whole world is new, fresh, exciting, and needing to be explored. I'd stop and pick up leaves and explore them, play with ants, even dust bunnies are interesting. :) I can play with toys again when I'm tripping, and in short, to me, when I trip, I become that little kid again, that I always want to be. Hallucinogens seem to make us into little kids again, full of hope, dreams, and without prejudice, full of the ability to see things in a new perspective, a KIDS perspective, but with an adult mind. :) And when I said this on the group, I opened the eyes of every tripper, as they all said "yes, you're right, that's exactly it". :) sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From Squest at cris.com Sun Jan 25 02:03:28 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > > > Personally, I _enjoy_ hearing a little bit about the lives of people > > who share some of my interests. The world (including the government, > > I don't, especially not in a discussion group that I read to discuss > collecting and doing stuff with old computers. Call me a geek, but I get to gether with people to socialize (as this listserv does) as WELL as talk about common interests. However, at every party, there is always a few anti-socials in front of the TV. sq (does anyone else here remember the old computer club meetings, back in those days of the S-100 bus computers, where we'd all pack our cars with all our homebrew computer hardware, take it to the meeting site, and for the first couple of hours, brag about our stuff, show it off to everyone else, then for the rest of the night, we'd all stand in groups and talk?) -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From Squest at cris.com Sun Jan 25 02:29:22 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <199801250103.RAA24176@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > Do NOT put trichlor on hot metal (such as a fuser), or else you'll end up > with phosgene gas, which is -- shall we say -- slightlu harmful. (It was > one of the war gasses used during WWI). Phosgene is NOT produced from trichlor (1,1,1,trichloroethane). Phosgene is carbonic dichloride, a compound with the deadly properties of both chlorine AND carbon monoxide! TCE (trichloroethane, methylchloroform, chlorothene) was produced as a safer substitute for carbon tetrachloride back in the 60's and carbon tet was removed from the market. IT IS CARBON TETRACHLORIDE that produces phosgene when it is reduced on a hot surface. Carbon tet (tetrachloromethane) hasn't been available for 30 years! Funny how legends continue to spread. :) > I've heard that trichlor was outlawed, but I still see it around. My > favorite all-around solvent is MEK, but I haven't tried it on toner. They sell it in every hardware store and lumber yard. Chloro-clean is how I buy it. It is the #3 known carcinogen on the list, down from the #1 chemical carcinogen, PCB (poly chlorinated biphenyls). sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 25 06:21:09 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: there's an interesting story concerning my portable pc. i bought my first at a thrift store for $5 with no keyboard so i just ran a cable extender out of the back. quite a while later, i bought a box of keyboards at a radio rally for $5 and whaddya know, but there's a portable pc keyboard in there, complete! i snapped it into my ppc, and now it's complete. now, if only the same thing would happen with an atari power supply... david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 25 06:23:53 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Diagnostics for IBM PC AT ver 2.02 Message-ID: <2e6103c3.34cb2edb@aol.com> I had bought an AT at an auction sale once. it was the old type 1 board, with 512k and double stacked ram chips. much to my surprise, it was upgraded to the familiar AMI bios, which of course gave it type 47 for user defined drives! should of kept it for that reason. i sold it before i started my collection in 1991 david In a message dated 98-01-24 21:57:20 EST, you write: << Correct. The PC/AT bios only stores a drive code (a number that points to a table in the ROM) in the CMOS RAM/RTC chip. There's no support for storing drive parameters there. That's why there's a kludge ROM in this machine with a patched drive table so I could add a larger IDE drive to it. >> From cgregory at lrbcg.com Sun Jan 25 08:25:49 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: <007f01bd299d$231dc600$a227a2ce@cliffgre> The 5140 is the IBM convertible computer released in 1986, two years after the 5155. A real nice machine, BTW. Closer to a true portable (weighs in at about 12 lgs.) than the previous luggables by IBM, Compaq, Kaypro, et. al. Also one of the first (not sure of what I speak here) with a LCD screen. For a picture and complete specs go to: http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/5140.html Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 10:20 PM Subject: Re: IBM Portable Personal Computer > > > >>I don't know, Sam, but as one who does a bit of IBM collecting, there seems >>to be many more 5140s floating around out there than the 5155s. I have a >>perfect 5140 in my collection, but the 5155 has eluded me (so far). >> > > >I know what a 5155 is, I have two of those, but what is a 5140? > > From cgregory at lrbcg.com Sun Jan 25 08:56:42 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Okimate 10 Message-ID: <009201bd29a1$73cc8a60$a227a2ce@cliffgre> The Okimate 10 uses a serial connection designed for computers without a parallel port, such as the Commodore. There are interface cables made to allow such a computer to communicate to a printer with a standard centronics connector. However, I have never seen a way to do it the other way around (but such a beast may exist, FAIK). A more likely scenario is to find an adaptor to allow the Okimate to interface with a PC's serial port. HTH, Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 12:33 AM Subject: Okimate 10 > >I would like to inquire about the printer's cable connection. Will it >accept a standard centronics cable? I would appreciate any information >that you can give me regarding this matter or any information that you may >have about the availability of an Okimate 10 module that would allow >connection with a centronics cable. > >--Thank You-- > >whunt > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jan 25 09:08:19 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: DEC and Apricots Message-ID: <19980125150820.19344.qmail@hotmail.com> Two questions: 1) What is a DECstation 312? Is it just a PC clone? What processor? 2) I heard of a machine called the Apricot, which came in a portable model w/voice recognition, and several desktop ones. It seems they were all Intel-based. Could someone tell me if they were really good as far as the GUI and voice recognition and everything else, or just commercial junk? How much would these machines go for? Ok, a third question: What is an IBM Eduquest? They are PC-like machines, but how different? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From archive at navix.net Sun Jan 25 11:09:07 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: Message-ID: <34CB71B2.400D7147@navix.net> SuperDave: What type of Atari power supply do you need? CORD SUPRDAVE wrote: > there's an interesting story concerning my portable pc. i bought my first at a > thrift store for $5 with no keyboard so i just ran a cable extender out of the > back. quite a while later, i bought a box of keyboards at a radio rally for $5 > and whaddya know, but there's a portable pc keyboard in there, complete! i > snapped it into my ppc, and now it's complete. now, if only the same thing > would happen with an atari power supply... > > david -- _________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | |-----------------------------------------| | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | | (402) 872- 3272 | |_________________________________________| From rkneusel at post.its.mcw.edu Sun Jan 25 10:38:42 1998 From: rkneusel at post.its.mcw.edu (Ronald Kneusel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Mac Development In-Reply-To: <199801240802.AAA17003@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: There are several freeware Mac development systems out there you can try if you are interested. Personally, I often use MacMETH Modula-2. It runs under System 6 or System 7, haven't tried it with System 8. I should post my version of it on the web as it has a library of Mac Toolbox routines that for some reason were not included in the usual release. Nice documentation, too. I'd also look at Pocket Forth (http://keaggy.intmed.mcw.edu/pf.html) which is probably my current favorite programming language. It is very small but fast and can be used to build nice little standalone apps. If you are curious as to how I have a recent article in Forth Dimensions that can be used as a starting point, just let me know. Others to try would be Yerk and Mops, both similar, both object-oriented Forths. Yerk is more likely to work on old Macs. I use them when the project is too large for Pocket Forth's dictionary (a 16-bit Forth, the others are 32-bit and very powerful, and very well documented) Aren't most of the IM books, at least the old ones, available from an Apple web site somewhere? I thought they were. Also, you'd be surprised (I am) at the amount of software that still runs on a 12 year old Mac SE under System 6.0.8! Finally, someone mentioned Apple's MPW as the way to get a CLI on a Mac. Another possibility is the Alpha text editor which has a command line shell and uses Tcl as its programming language. I don't think it runs under System 6, though. If you want one, write your own! Give the app the type/creator of the Finder, rename it Finder and put it in the System Folder. When the Mac starts up it will be used in place of the Finder. - Ron Kneusel rkneusel@mcw.edu From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 25 10:53:04 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125085304.0324b8e4@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:03 AM 1/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >(does anyone else here remember the old computer club meetings, back in >those days of the S-100 bus computers, where we'd all pack our cars with >all our homebrew computer hardware, take it to the meeting site, and for >the first couple of hours, brag about our stuff, show it off to everyone >else, then for the rest of the night, we'd all stand in groups and talk?) Remember it? Heck, for mant of us that was the major regular social event in our lives! Between the monthly meetings, and the occasional regional gathering, this was nerdvana! Still remember the time we got ran out of our regular meeting place just before everyone started firing up machines because a tank at the gas station next door started leaking... (fumes everywhere!) Along that line... I was going thru some old slides yesterday, and found the stuff that I shot at the first half-dozen or so 'West Coast Computer Faires'. Jim Warren *really* knew how to throw a party! I'm just trying to decide how best to scan these things so I can start adding them to my web pages. They just don't do Computer Fairs like that anymore... (sigh) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From s-ware at nwu.edu Sun Jan 25 12:00:21 1998 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Interact Model One Message-ID: I recently acquired an Interact Model One computer. It's a relatively small unit with calculator-style keys and a built in cassette deck for data storage. Inside, there is an 8080 CPU and 16 Kbytes of RAM. The latest date codes on the components place its manufacture in early 1978. Video output is color NTSC, and there is a built-in RF modulator for driving a television. The rather large pixels yield a 16 x 12 text display. The ROM seems to contain only enough code to start the process of loading programs from tape. Fortunately, I picked up two different BASIC variants (EDU-BASIC, which is a usable "tiny" BASIC, and Level II Microsoft BASIC.), as well as about a dozen games on tape. The 20-year old cassette tapes I obtained with this machine are starting to deteriorate. Unfortunately, copies made using relatively high-quality audio cassette decks do not load. The head on the internal cassette deck is a standard 1/2 track mono head, so copying the tapes should not be difficult. Does anyone know if Interact produced their cassettes slightly off "standard" alignment as a form of copy protection? I'm currently planning to use one of the prerecorded Interact cassettes to set the azimuth adjustment on an old cassette deck, and then use this deck for both playback and recording to make working copies of the Interact tapes if this is the case. If not, I'll record copies on a properly aligned deck and then adjust the Interact to read the copies. -- Scott Ware NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource 303 East Chicago Avenue, Ward 8-264, Chicago, IL 60611 (312)503-0813 Finger ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu for PGP public key From Squest at cris.com Sun Jan 25 12:16:46 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > there's an interesting story concerning my portable pc. i bought my first at a > thrift store for $5 with no keyboard so i just ran a cable extender out of the > back. quite a while later, i bought a box of keyboards at a radio rally for $5 > and whaddya know, but there's a portable pc keyboard in there, complete! i > snapped it into my ppc, and now it's complete. now, if only the same thing > would happen with an atari power supply... I am a former engineer for the now dead Atari/Warner, and I have a ton of Atari power supplies, so many in fact, I cut the connectors off them and use them as project power supplies! What type did you need? :) sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From aaron at prinsol.com Sun Jan 25 13:53:30 1998 From: aaron at prinsol.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Archives Message-ID: In the spirit of the last few posts: Hi, I'm new to the list. My collection so far includes several Sun 3 models, Atari 8-bit and ST stuff, a couple of old AT's and XT's, Apple II's and Macs, and a few CP/M machines. I am a former refugee from the mid-80's Atari user's groups, when the same people would meet *socially* twice a week - once for the Atari group and once for the skeptics/athiests group. Pleased to meet you all.... BTW, is there a publicly available archive for this list? Regards, Aaron Finney From mallison at konnections.com Sun Jan 25 14:02:12 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: Message-ID: <34CB9A44.41DD@konnections.com> SUPER: What kind of adapter is it? I can keep an eye out here. I have one place the walls of which are lined with adapters. Usually 2 or 3 bucks.... -Mike SUPRDAVE wrote: > > there's an interesting story concerning my portable pc. i bought my first at a > thrift store for $5 with no keyboard so i just ran a cable extender out of the > back. quite a while later, i bought a box of keyboards at a radio rally for $5 > and whaddya know, but there's a portable pc keyboard in there, complete! i > snapped it into my ppc, and now it's complete. now, if only the same thing > would happen with an atari power supply... > > david From mallison at konnections.com Sun Jan 25 14:35:49 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Compute Faires (was - Re: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2]) References: <3.0.3.32.19980125085304.0324b8e4@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <34CBA225.3413@konnections.com> Jim: Isn't this a better thing....? We cna all get together any time we want and not get into trouble. We can have all the computes set up and work as long as we like. No worry about fumes. We can even have a few beers. Now about my drinking problem.... -Mike Allison James Willing wrote: > They just don't do Computer Fairs like that > anymore... (sigh) > > -jim > From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 25 14:34:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Steve J. Quest wrote: > Call me a geek, but I get to gether with people to socialize (as > this listserv does) as WELL as talk about common interests. However, at > every party, there is always a few anti-socials in front of the TV. That would be all fine and dandy if this were a discussion catering to such interests, BUT THE FACT IS, IT ISN'T! I don't care to hear about your drug addictions and your non-existent sex life! It is of no interest to me whatsoever! Now, if you've got something regarding old computers to talk about, let's hear it. Otherwise, go join a support group. BIG HINT: This was posted publicly in the hopes that others who might consider writing about similar blather will get a clue. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From mallison at konnections.com Sun Jan 25 14:42:54 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Archives References: Message-ID: <34CBA3CE.3CA8@konnections.com> Aaron: "Several" Sun 3's? How bout swapping a Sun 3 for a NeXT Turbo Slab? -Mike Allison (Since you have so many, any I have none???) Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > In the spirit of the last few posts: > > Hi, I'm new to the list. My collection so far includes several Sun 3 > models, Atari 8-bit and ST stuff, a couple of old AT's and XT's, Apple > II's and Macs, and a few CP/M machines. I am a former refugee from the > mid-80's Atari user's groups, when the same people would meet > *socially* twice a week - once for the Atari group and once for the > skeptics/athiests group. Pleased to meet you all.... > > BTW, is there a publicly available archive for this list? > > Regards, > > Aaron Finney From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 25 14:44:19 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Interact Model One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Scott Ware wrote: > I recently acquired an Interact Model One computer. It's a relatively > small unit with calculator-style keys and a built in cassette deck for > data storage. Inside, there is an 8080 CPU and 16 Kbytes of RAM. The > latest date codes on the components place its manufacture in early 1978. Scott, I've got one of these systems, and I've only seen two others: one owned by Doug Coward and another that (I THINK) Marvin Johnson bought at VCF 1.0. I got mine with some cassettes, but Marvin got a full set of cassettes for his, and in great condition. You may want to hook up with him to see if his tapes are working (marvin@rain.org). These are not very common machines. I think they were used as training computers for those "Become a Computer Technician" ads you see in computer magazines for those cheezy tech schools. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From weese at mind.net Sun Jan 25 15:04:16 1998 From: weese at mind.net (Lynn & Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) Message-ID: <199801252106.NAA17037@one.mind.net> C'mon, Sam, don't hold it back -- tell us how you really feel! ---mikey > I don't care to hear about your drug addictions and your non-existent sex > life! It is of no interest to me whatsoever! Now, if you've got > something regarding old computers to talk about, let's hear it. > Otherwise, go join a support group. > > > BIG HINT: This was posted publicly in the hopes that others who might > consider writing about similar blather will get a clue. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 25 15:59:14 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > (does anyone else here remember the old computer club meetings, back in > those days of the S-100 bus computers, where we'd all pack our cars with > all our homebrew computer hardware, take it to the meeting site, and for > the first couple of hours, brag about our stuff, show it off to everyone > else, then for the rest of the night, we'd all stand in groups and talk?) I remember going to FOG meetings in the 80s where there'd be some presentation of this or that and then everyone would break up into groups and talk about computers and how computers would make the world a better place. We'd get stuff from the library disks that we needed and, sometimes, some of us would go out for pizza. I remember driving from Ames to Des Moines, from a FOG meeting, in the worst blizzard conditions I'd ever seen. I couldn't tell where the road was, where the shoulder was and so on. By the time I realized how bad it was, it was too nasty to turn back or pull over (a truck might have hit me if I pulled over) and drove 30 miles in about 3 hours. I was truly terrifying and maybe a little stupid. But I met some folks from the FOG meeting back in Des Moines, we ate some of the best pizza I'd ever had and we talked about all kinds of things including computers. I really miss those days, which I why I collect the computers from those days that I wanted but couldn't afford to own. It takes me back. At that time I had a Commodore 128, 1541 drive and a color monitor I'd hacked out of some surplus stuff...it also had an Avatex 1200hc, IIRC, that I wrote a LOVELY wardialer for...but we won't go into THAT even though the statute of limitations is long since up. ;-D Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jan 25 15:14:32 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam, some people have expressed an interest in this general discussion... so far, you are the only one who has opposed it. I don't think it's really that hard to hit the delete button (but now I sound like a spammer). So... I would like to propose the following: I have set up a listserv for computer collectors. Before you get uptight, I don't want this new mailing list to compete with the classiccmp. In fact, my rules will be this: 1. Members should have an interest in collecting computers. 2. Members should have some semblance of a life outside of computers. 3. Discussion shall include, but not be limited to Linux, premarital sex, drug/alcohol use, The Simpsons(tm), religion, business, pleasure, and whatever your heart desires EXCEPT NO DISCUSSION OF COMPUTERS >10 YEARS OLD. (That's what classiccmp is for.) to subscribe send a message 'subscribe' to collector-request@slg.ml.org There, if you want to discuss life outside of computers, there's a place for you (me). And Sam can be happy knowing that classiccmp can stay on topic. ttyl srw p.s. This will (hopefully) be my last ever off-topic post on classiccmp. On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Steve J. Quest wrote: > > Call me a geek, but I get to gether with people to socialize (as > > this listserv does) as WELL as talk about common interests. However, at > > every party, there is always a few anti-socials in front of the TV. > > That would be all fine and dandy if this were a discussion catering to > such interests, BUT THE FACT IS, IT ISN'T! From bufforec at studiobuffo.com.pl Sun Jan 25 15:55:04 1998 From: bufforec at studiobuffo.com.pl (Jarek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive Message-ID: <34CBB4B8.3B5A@studiobuffo.com.pl> I am looking for 20M removable bernoulli drives. I use them in my music console rack. Since two weeks I have problem with it and I can't read old data. I make few radical steps included filter exchange but without succes. This units are dedicated to my system and I can replace it only for the same 20M drives. Maybe somebody, somewhere has useless items in a basement store... Thanks for colaboration. Jarek Warsaw 25.01.98 From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 25 16:21:40 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980125172132.006d89b4@netpath.net> At 10:55 PM 1/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >I am looking for 20M removable bernoulli drives. I use them in my music >console rack. Since two weeks I have problem with it and I can't read >old data. I make few radical steps included filter exchange but without >succes. This units are dedicated to my system and I can replace it only >for the same 20M drives. Maybe somebody, somewhere has useless items in I've got a dual 10mb unit sitting in the garage, but that won't help you. Does anyone else want it? It's pretty hefty. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 25 16:44:53 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive Message-ID: <4b3cf74d.34cbc067@aol.com> I have two of these drives, the kind that uses the BIG disks, but i have not the controller for it. anyone have one for purchasing? I also have ~70 disks and even an unused cleaning kit for it. david From dastar at wco.com Sun Jan 25 16:56:51 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Scott Walde wrote: > Sam, some people have expressed an interest in this general discussion... > so far, you are the only one who has opposed it. I don't think it's > really that hard to hit the delete button (but now I sound like a > spammer). So... I would like to propose the following: I have one last thing to say about this and then I'll start individually spamming the offending parties instead of perpetuating this flood of idiocy in the discussion. Read the FAQ. The FAQ explains what this discussion group is for. It is very plainly worded and is easy to understand. Everyone who joined this discussion joined it on the basis of the what the FAQ proscribes. For someone to post outside the bounds of the scope of this discussion group is selfish and rude to those who joined the discussion and remain within its discussion parameters. > I have set up a listserv for computer collectors. Before you get uptight, <...> > There, if you want to discuss life outside of computers, there's a place > for you (me). And Sam can be happy knowing that classiccmp can stay on > topic. Wonderful. Thank you. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sun Jan 25 17:26:25 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: DEC and Apricots Message-ID: <01bd29e8$a767ef80$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Two questions: . >2) I heard of a machine called the Apricot, which came in a portable >model w/voice recognition, and several desktop ones. It seems they >were all Intel-based. Could someone tell me if they were really good >as far as the GUI and voice recognition and everything else, or just >commercial junk? How much would these machines go for? The GUI was quite primitive compared to say a Mac of the same era. Mine are all monochrome, don't know if there was a color version. Hadn't heard of the voice recognition before. There is an Apricot wep page at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/4462/apricot.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 25 12:01:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 24, 98 09:02:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980125/9d1ee999/attachment.ksh From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Jan 25 18:38:59 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam, My mail server must have been down the day you were put in charge. I, for one, would like to hear Mr Whitson's comments on this matter. Clearly there is a question of interpretation here and, seeing as how I've received no warnings or chastisements directly from Bill or from anyone else for that matter, I'll assume that your opinion is either that of the minority or differs from his to such a degree that it isn't worth the bits wasted in its transmission. I suspect that you would do well to discard your copy of _Roberts Rules of Order_ and procure a copy of _When Anger Hurts_. A (wo)man's maturity is defined not so much by his principles and unwavering rigidity in the face of that which offends him as it is by the depth of his patience and his tolerance for others in spite of his dissatisfaction with their behavior. As I've said, I am not only confident but resolute that the aforementioned discussion WAS, indeed, within the parameters set forth for the group...IE the discussion of computer collecting, which is driven by various motivations which are worthy of discussion in and of themselves inasmuch as they reveal why one may wish to collect one sort of computer over another or collect computers at all and recognizing that we all need some reassurance, from time to time, that computer collecting is not merely a deviance or eccentricity. You reveal yourself in your words and the manner in which you convey them. Should chastisement rain down upon me by the TRUE powers that be, then I will accept such knowing that I did so as a mature adult and not as a sniveling whiner. I will know that however just or unjust such judgement may be, many will recognize my sincerity and respect me for my forthright and honest nature and my respect for others. But I will NOT accept condescension or judgement from YOU so descend from your horse and stand amongst men (and women) as an equal rather than a self-appointed proclaimer of what is worthy and what is unworthy of discussion. As for your threat of spamming, it carries little weight here as it will result in the implementation of various hacks which function to deny incoming mail from specific mail servers or from specific addresses. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > I have one last thing to say about this and then I'll start individually > spamming the offending parties instead of perpetuating this flood of > idiocy in the discussion. > For someone to post outside the bounds of the scope of this discussion > group is selfish and rude to those who joined the discussion and remain > within its discussion parameters. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sun Jan 25 15:21:31 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: toner cleaning Message-ID: <199801252353.PAA29089@mx3.u.washington.edu> IT IS CARBON TETRACHLORIDE that produces phosgene when it is > reduced on a hot surface. Carbon tet (tetrachloromethane) hasn't been > available for 30 years! Funny how legends continue to spread. :) H'm. Sorry for shooting off my mouth. Computers (peecees, anyway...) I know, but chem is not my cuppa tea. manney From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jan 25 18:05:18 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Luggables Message-ID: <19980126000518.21652.qmail@hotmail.com> The luggables look cool on the outside, but they're pretty boring. The Compaq Portable seems to have a non-standard video card; it wouldn't run Works 2.0 correctly. I liked the one IBM Convertible I've seen, though they could have made it lighter. Unfortunately, it was trashed w/o my consultation [ 8^( ] and I never got a chance to try the software package that used to come with those things. If you ask me, the Mac Plus -like machines were/are better. At least they have a normal screen. I LOVE my Mac Portable, though it has a bit of an appetite for power. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From archive at navix.net Sun Jan 25 21:38:43 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Atari 800/ 800XL DOS commands? Message-ID: <34CC0542.15687AF6@navix.net> Hello: Here's my question. I am trying to figure out how to load certain commands on an Atari 800xl. I guess I should say 'files'. I can load BASIC files just fine with DOS loaded, I just exit to BASIC and RUN"D1:game.bas" -- is there a way to do it directly from DOS 2.5, etc., without going back to BASIC? And, my primary question.... if I see a machine language file in the DOS directory such as ataridemo.obj or game237.com, how can I load these. I have interpreted from some other sources that I need to reboot without the basic cartridge in to run a machine language program, but how 'actually' do I do it? I don't see any of the menu options under DOS that say "load machine language file: " or anything like that. Please respond back if you have any information, as I am trying to catalog all those Atari 800 (and everything) disks. Thank you very much, CORD COSLOR -- _________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | |-----------------------------------------| | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | | (402) 872- 3272 | |_________________________________________| From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Jan 25 15:42:39 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: Kaypro II by owner: In-Reply-To: <34CC0542.15687AF6@navix.net> Message-ID: <199801260237.VAA16307@mail.cgocable.net> Caught my eye on usenet: From: antispam@starnetinc.notthis.com (Howard Rice) Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables Subject: Original Kapro II portable Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:51:26 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <34c8d001.3887347@news.uss.net> Reply-To: antispam@starnetinc.notthis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: port89-87.uss.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: news.cgocable.net!news.uunet.ca!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cp k-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet. com!futuresouth.com!not-for-mail Original Kapro II portable A V O I D S P A M M E R S, D O H I T R E P L Y. Email to address below. This is the suitcase style portable with built-in monitor and two floppy drives which are exposed when the keyboard is opened. CPM operating system and manuals included. Well cared for unit looks factory fresh. Make an offer! R E M O V E nospam from return address to reply! Email address:= compumedia@uss.net email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 25 17:42:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:26 2005 Subject: DEC and Apricots In-Reply-To: <01bd29e8$a767ef80$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> from "Olminkhof" at Jan 26, 98 10:26:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2399 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980125/4fd8a5e0/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 25 20:58:03 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Atari 800/ 800XL DOS commands? Message-ID: i thought the command was something like LIST D1:filespec but its been so long. my 1050 drive manual doesnt have much info on it. to get dos help, the manual says to press H at the dos menu. this will bring up a help menu. press h and return to bring up screens of info. In a message dated 98-01-25 21:07:05 EST, you write: << And, my primary question.... if I see a machine language file in the DOS directory such as ataridemo.obj or game237.com, how can I load these. I have interpreted from some other sources that I need to reboot without the basic cartridge in to run a machine language program, but how 'actually' do I do it? I don't see any of the menu options under DOS that say "load machine language file: " or anything like that. >> From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jan 25 21:16:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980125220002.006a7500@netpath.net> At 05:44 PM 1/25/98 EST, you wrote: >I have two of these drives, the kind that uses the BIG disks, but i have not >the controller for it. anyone have one for purchasing? I also have ~70 disks >and even an unused cleaning kit for it. I don't have a controller either, probably why it's sitting up in the rafters of the garage. Think I should dig a big hole and bury it for future generations? -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From mallison at konnections.com Sun Jan 25 21:35:18 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Luggables References: <19980126000518.21652.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <34CC0476.6262@konnections.com> The original "suitcase" portable, I have to agree, but the lunch box portables are quite nice. Though I expected some access to an ISA bus in the Compaq III, there weren't any. That's the one nice advantage to the luggable -- they're expandable, to a degree... -Mike Allison Max Eskin wrote: > > The luggables look cool on the outside, but they're pretty boring. > The Compaq Portable seems to have a non-standard video card; it wouldn't > run Works 2.0 correctly. I liked the one IBM Convertible I've seen, > though they could have made it lighter. Unfortunately, it was trashed > w/o my consultation [ 8^( ] and I never got a chance to try the software > package that used to come with those things. If you ask me, the > Mac Plus -like machines were/are better. At least they have a normal > screen. I LOVE my Mac Portable, though it has a bit of an appetite for > power. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmpete at swbell.net Sun Jan 25 21:48:48 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980125220002.006a7500@netpath.net> References: <3.0.32.19980125220002.006a7500@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34cc0682.5281972@mail.swbell.net> On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:16:31 -0500, you said: >At 05:44 PM 1/25/98 EST, you wrote: >>I have two of these drives, the kind that uses the BIG disks, but i have not >>the controller for it. anyone have one for purchasing? I also have ~70 disks >>and even an unused cleaning kit for it. > >I don't have a controller either, probably why it's sitting up in the >rafters of the garage. Think I should dig a big hole and bury it for future >generations? I have three 8-bit IOMEGA controllers; one PC-3 and two PC-250. If there's any interest, I'll look for the software... _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From s-ware at nwu.edu Sun Jan 25 22:25:54 1998 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Interact Model One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: (regarding the Interact Model One) > Scott, I've got one of these systems, and I've only seen two others: one > owned by Doug Coward and another that (I THINK) Marvin Johnson bought at > VCF 1.0. I got mine with some cassettes, but Marvin got a full set of > cassettes for his, and in great condition. You may want to hook up with > him to see if his tapes are working (marvin@rain.org). Great! It's good to know that there are other sets of tapes out there, since this machine requires a boot cassette to do anything. Most of my cassettes load properly, at least after I replaced the pressure pads. I'm still planning to try duplicating these using a cassette deck with tweaked alignment for archival purposes. The Interact seems to use a strange dual-stage load, in which a graphic image is loaded, displayed, and (presumably) discarded before the program is loaded. This makes "re-saving" loaded programs onto newer media somewhat more difficult. > These are not very common machines. I think they were used as training > computers for those "Become a Computer Technician" ads you see in computer > magazines for those cheezy tech schools. Interesting. I was somewhat surprised to find an Intel 8080 inside a consumer-oriented machine that was produced after the market started the shift to Zilog. I wonder if a correspondence course designed around the 8080 could have influenced the design of this computer, or, possibly, the choice of the Interact for such courses. -- Scott Ware NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource 303 East Chicago Avenue, Ward 8-264, Chicago, IL 60611 (312)503-0813 Finger ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu for PGP public key From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 26 00:07:50 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) (fwd) Message-ID: I think the following says all that need be said about this debate. I received it from Mr. Ismail this evening. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:12:53 -0800 (PST) From: Sam Ismail To: Wirehead Prime Subject: Re: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > My mail server must have been down the day you were put in charge. I, > for one, would like to hear Mr Whitson's comments on this matter. Mr. Whitson doesn't have to comment on the matter as he already has, IN THE MANNER OF A FAQ WHICH CLEARLY EXPLAINS WHAT IS AND IS NOT ACCEPTABLE DISCUSSION FOR THIS GROUP. Any drug addled moron can determine from the FAQ that the last five days of you blowing your wad over yourself is not what is considered on-topic for a discussion group on CLASSIC COMPUTERS. > Clearly there is a question of interpretation here and, seeing as how I've > received no warnings or chastisements directly from Bill or from anyone > else for that matter, I'll assume > that your opinion is either that of the minority or differs from his to > such a degree that it isn't worth the bits wasted in its transmission. No, its really just that Bill is too busy to police the discussion. Otherwise, I'm sure he'd be objecting. Your "interpretation" of what belongs in this discussion must be based on the "This-is-my-life" FAQ, because nowhere in the FAQ does it say that what you've been discussing in acceptable. It is my interpretation that anyone who would violate the rules of the FAQ so blatantly as you have is a total ass. > I suspect that you would do well to discard your copy of _Roberts Rules of > Order_ and procure a copy of _When Anger Hurts_. A (wo)man's > maturity is > defined not so much by his principles and unwavering rigidity in the face > of that which offends him as it is by the depth of his patience and his > tolerance for others in spite of his dissatisfaction with their behavior. My god, what is your problem? Don't quote any passages from some fucken self-help book to me. Please. I'd suspect that you'd do much better to read the ClassicCmp FAQ over and over until it registers with you. > As I've said, I am not only confident but resolute that the > aforementioned discussion WAS, indeed, within the parameters set forth > for the group...IE the discussion of computer collecting, which is driven > by various motivations which are worthy of discussion in and of > themselves inasmuch as they reveal why one may wish to collect one sort > of computer over another or collect computers at all and recognizing that > we all need some reassurance, from time to time, that computer collecting > is not merely a deviance or eccentricity. Yeah, that would be all fine and dandy if that is what you were discussing, but the fact is, you were telling us all about how you never went to college, you started an ISP, you became relatively successful with it, you make twice the median income of your state, you married a beautiful woman, you think drugs are bad, blah blah blah. So what!? What does THAT have to do with collecting computers? You claim to be making some point about the motivation for collecting computers, but where was it? I think your point was more to brag about your accomplishment, which I really couldn't care less about, considering: a) I don't know you, and thus don't care and b) this is not a discussion group for talking about how good we feel about ourselves. > You reveal yourself in your words and the manner in which you convey > them. Should chastisement rain down upon me by the TRUE powers that be, > then I will accept such knowing that I did so as a mature adult and not as a > sniveling whiner. I will know that however just or unjust such If you were a "mature adult" you'd realize you are out of order and would police yourself. Think about it...only a child need be chastised for breaking rules. Why not act your physical, rather than mental, age. > judgement may be, many will recognize my sincerity and respect me for > my forthright and honest nature and my respect for others. But I will NOT Blah blah blah. There you go blowing yourself again. Thus proving my point that all you are interested in is promoting yourself. Go put up a web page about yourself if you think you're such a fantastic guy. I think the only thing people will realize in this case is that you are obscenely off-topic. > accept condescension or judgement from YOU so descend from your horse and > stand amongst men (and women) as an equal rather than a self-appointed > proclaimer of what is worthy and what is unworthy of discussion. How dramatic. Are you for real? > As for your threat of spamming, it carries little weight here as it will > result in the implementation of various hacks which function to deny > incoming mail from specific mail servers or from specific addresses. How impressive. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sun Jan 25 23:49:41 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive Message-ID: <01IST6XQT58M9S3ZGG@cc.usu.edu> > I have two of these drives, the kind that uses the BIG disks, but i have not > the controller for it. anyone have one for purchasing? I also have ~70 disks > and even an unused cleaning kit for it. They're SCSI. Old enough that I don't know whether they'll work with anything; I've hooked up a 44MB Bernoulli to a Linux box and it works (I just have to have it powered off when I turn the machine on because the SCSI ROM BIOS doesn't like it), but I've not fiddled with my 10MB units yet. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jan 25 22:57:16 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: 99 cent store find... References: <199801250802.AAA07172@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34CC1811.671D@goldrush.com> While on a recent excursion to Stockton (a realtively close big city for us) we stopped by one of those 99 cent clearnace centers and I was surprised to find boxes of disks available. I picked up 90 DS/DD diskettes for just $8.91, 9.9 cents for a 'new' brand name disk is pretty good. They also had 5.25" DS/HD (don't have any need for those...) and also a few boxes of 8" disks, (W/WP, is that the format? It was the only thing that looked like a format/sectoring I.D. to me...) Other than that I picked up a VIC-20 RF modulator for 75 cents... Wasn't really thrift-storing that day... :) I did pick up a Maganavox composite/RGB monitor for only $4.50 a couple weeks back though. Question on this, it has TTL RGB and Lin. RGB ports, is the Lin. RGB Analog RGB? (Magnavox did produce a few Commodore/Amiga monitors, I am hoping this one may be Amiga compatible...) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jan 26 00:02:05 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: SoCal PDP Items at TRW Message-ID: A reminder to any PDP/Plessey collectors among us that I will have several pieces of Plessey 'PDP-clone' items at the monthly TRW Amateur Radio Swap Meet this coming Sat the 31st. I have a Plessey MicroII complete except for software... it boots into ODT '*', also a twin 8" drive for it.. a Kennedy 5xxx drive with see-thru cover.. needs an interface, and various other items of interest to the classic mini collector. I am trying to thin my collection and keep to 'true-blue' DEC stuff. Bad pun. Sorry.... ANYWAY... e-mail for info/directions/chat/whatever: delivery is available for the right bribe. I am looking for: An interface/formatter to connect a Kennedy 9300 9trk to an 11/34a A/D and/or D/A cards for the MINC-11 70's vintage D/A boxes for the PDP-11 If you are local or visiting, TRW is a great place to score micros and the occasional mini. Last time, an IBM Sys/34 complete went for $20.. software and terminals and docs. The guy 'inherited' it and just wanted it off the back of his little truck. Had not another indivdual (who had been an IBM field tech) bought it... it would be here. In what's left of the garage space. This is just an example of what turns up there. TRW plant in El Segundo, 7:30am to 11:30am e-mail me for space numbers and more. Cheers to all John From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 00:14:22 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <199801252353.PAA29089@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > IT IS CARBON TETRACHLORIDE that produces phosgene when it is > > reduced on a hot surface. Carbon tet (tetrachloromethane) hasn't been > > available for 30 years! Funny how legends continue to spread. :) > > H'm. Sorry for shooting off my mouth. Computers (peecees, anyway...) I > know, but chem is not my cuppa tea. That's ok, old warnings from the past are hard to get rid of. One that I heard just tonight was "if you aren't careful when you make your own booze you can go blind". This came from the era when alcohol was prohibited, and some unsavory people would repackage denatured alcohol (ethanol with a percentage of methanol in it to render it poisonous so if you drink it you will either go blind, or die, thus prevent you from getting pleasure from UNTAXED alcohol). After a while, they switched to formula 19 (methyl isobutyl ketone I think) as the denaturant so you don't go blind or die, but you _wish_ you were dead. To this day people think you can go blind from homemade booze. :-/ Some stories never die.....sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 00:18:50 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Atari 800/ 800XL DOS commands? In-Reply-To: <34CC0542.15687AF6@navix.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Cord Coslor wrote: > Hello: > > Here's my question. I am trying to figure out how to load certain > commands on an Atari 800xl. I guess I should say 'files'. I can load > BASIC files just fine with DOS loaded, I just exit to BASIC and > RUN"D1:game.bas" -- is there a way to do it directly from DOS 2.5, etc., > without going back to BASIC? At the basic prompt, you type run"d:basic.gam to load and execute, or load"d:filename.bas to just load it, then type run. > And, my primary question.... if I see a machine language file in the DOS > directory such as ataridemo.obj or game237.com, how can I load these. I > have interpreted from some other sources that I need to reboot without > the basic cartridge in to run a machine language program, but how > 'actually' do I do it? I don't see any of the menu options under DOS > that say "load machine language file: " or anything like that. At the dos menu, type "L" and then type the filename, it will load and execute. Pretty simple, really. > Please respond back if you have any information, as I am trying to > catalog all those Atari 800 (and everything) disks. I have over 480 cartridge images that will run from ram. :) Cracked carts they're called. I don't know if the copyright is off them tho, as the owner (Atari/Warner) is out of business all together now...sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 00:32:43 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Atari 800/ 800XL DOS commands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > i thought the command was something like LIST D1:filespec but its been so > long. my 1050 drive manual doesnt have much info on it. to get dos help, the > manual says to press H at the dos menu. this will bring up a help menu. press > h and return to bring up screens of info. save"d:filename saves a basic file in tokenized format, while list"d:filename stores the file in untokenized format. Tokenized is smaller. :) The opposite of list is enter"d:filename. sq (golly, amazing what I'm remembering about these beasts now 12 years later) -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Mon Jan 26 06:08:32 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Luggables Message-ID: <01bd2a53$1edd1760$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >The original "suitcase" portable, I have to agree, but the lunch box >portables are quite nice. Though I expected some access to an ISA bus >in the Compaq III, there weren't any. That's the one nice advantage to >the luggable -- they're expandable, to a degree... The Portable III often comes with an expansion box that fits on the back. Makes the package a "big" lunchbox and has room for 2 or 3 ISA cards. Most I have seen have VGA and network cards in there. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 26 07:18:26 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <199801252353.PAA29089@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980126071826.47574720@intellistar.net> At 01:14 AM 1/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > >> IT IS CARBON TETRACHLORIDE that produces phosgene when it is >> > reduced on a hot surface. Carbon tet (tetrachloromethane) hasn't been >> > available for 30 years! Funny how legends continue to spread. :) >> >> H'm. Sorry for shooting off my mouth. Computers (peecees, anyway...) I >> know, but chem is not my cuppa tea. > > That's ok, old warnings from the past are hard to get rid of. One >that I heard just tonight was "if you aren't careful when you make your >own booze you can go blind". This came from the era when alcohol was >prohibited, and some unsavory people would repackage denatured alcohol >(ethanol with a percentage of methanol in it to render it poisonous so if >you drink it you will either go blind, or die, thus prevent you from >getting pleasure from UNTAXED alcohol). After a while, they switched to >formula 19 (methyl isobutyl ketone I think) as the denaturant so you don't >go blind or die, but you _wish_ you were dead. To this day people think >you can go blind from homemade booze. :-/ Some stories never die.....sq FWIW It wasn't just denatured alcohol that made you go blind. It was the lead solder that some people used to solder the copper together to make stills from. The old time moon shiners put copper stills together without solder but during prohibition a lot of quickie stills were put together with gobs of solder and the lead would leach out. Anyone here ever study moon shining? Fasinating subject (except to Sam of course). Joe > >-- >----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make >============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom >MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. > > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jan 26 01:12:27 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Atari 800/ 800XL DOS commands? In-Reply-To: <34CC0542.15687AF6@navix.net> Message-ID: <199801261221.HAA06329@smtp.interlog.com> On 25 Jan 98 at 19:38, Cord Coslor wrote: > Hello: > > Here's my question. I am trying to figure out how to load certain > commands on an Atari 800xl. I guess I should say 'files'. I can load > BASIC files just fine with DOS loaded, I just exit to BASIC and > RUN"D1:game.bas" -- is there a way to do it directly from DOS 2.5, etc., > without going back to BASIC? > > And, my primary question.... if I see a machine language file in the DOS > directory such as ataridemo.obj or game237.com, how can I load these. I > have interpreted from some other sources that I need to reboot without > the basic cartridge in to run a machine language program, but how > 'actually' do I do it? I don't see any of the menu options under DOS > that say "load machine language file: " or anything like that. > > Please respond back if you have any information, as I am trying to > catalog all those Atari 800 (and everything) disks. > > Thank you very much, > > CORD COSLOR > It's been a long time since I fired up my Atari 8-bits,(Ihave a 2600, 800, 65gs, and 130xe, as well as some STs) and I've never used an XL so I have to try and dredge up from "Mapping the Atari" which is mainly programming-related and "Your Atari Computer " which is very basic. I also have 810 and 1050 drives. Some applications written for the 800 (not XL) don't support the XL but most do ( There's a program called "Translator"). There are also differences in DOS 2.0 and 2.5 -- 18 vs 26 sector tracks. The 1050 will sense density, the 810 won't. According to the book, the XL had a built-in BASIC although it was compatible with earlier cartridges and a self-test feature like the 65GS and 130. This is accessed by a reset without the BASIC cartridge, SELECTing the test and then pressing START. Entering DOS should bring up the 2.5 MENU which has Directory, Format, etc as well as Load binary. pressing L will default to a query for specs. Some programs included an autorun file or loader program. IIRC simply entering RUN the program name would work. You can also use OPEN #1,6,0,"D:*.*." to get a dir. read. Likely your best source for info is the comp.sys.atari.8bit FAQ. Hope this helps, it's been a while and since I've been fooling with numerous OS , it sometimes gets jumbled in my head. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jan 26 07:05:31 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > I think the following says all that need be said about this debate. > I received it from Mr. Ismail this evening. > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead Let's get one thing clear here ... Sam is - well - Sam 8-) It's not the first time he has - er - bossed people around 8-) [MONSTER SNIPPAGE] (Been there - done that 8-) I have always thought Sam's sig. was enough to tell you everything you needed to know about him - but let's break it down 8-) > Sam > > Computer Historian, Well - He certainly has quite a few - and seems to know his stuff - but a historian does it for the money. A collector does it for love. > Programmer, Maybe > Musician, Never heard of him > Philosopher, Obviously NOT. Philosophers tend to discuss things even when they are not in agreement - it is the discussion that leads to enlightenment. > Athlete, Never heard of him > Writer, Not very inspired but certainly wordy - from what we've seen > Jackass Any questions? Now - I have to state that I am in some agreement with Sam but I also disagree. The drug culture predates computers (as discussed here) by serveral centuries (certainly meets the 10 yr rule 8-) And the drug culture (as discussed here) is an integral part of the early computer culture (at least in the U.S.) Anyone who attempts to ignore that is well - Stupid! For some, computers were the anti-drug program of the day. For others, the other way around. I personally enjoyed reading the posts. I usually pick and choose anyway - something Sam could do as well. BC From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jan 26 07:30:33 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: IIgs manuals wanted Message-ID: <0b5603331131a18UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Hello, all: Does anyone have a spare set of Apple //gs manuals that they'd be willing to part with? I just got two floppy drives for my new gs, so I'm just beginning to work my way around it. I'm running ProDOS until I can get OS/GS transferred to it. I've got a 5-1/4" and a 3-1/2" floppy, but can't seem to get ProDOS to INIT a new disk. No immediate solution is apparent from Nathan Mates' on-line info. Thanks! Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 26 07:40:07 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Now, back to topic... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13327288113.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, I *have* to drop NetBSD on here. The VMS installed on here is pretty damaged, apparently someone's shut it down the wrong way. It stackfaulted when I logged in the first time, dumped lots of crap, dumped memory to disk, and rebooted. Then it came up, and seemed to work OK, but almost nothing's here. Or Cat may have done it on purpose, they're supposed to WIPE the harddisks before allowing them to leave. ------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 26 07:57:14 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: II+ Os/Software Message-ID: <01bd2a62$4e79ab00$6260bcc1@hotze> Hi. I'm getting a II+ from Jeff Kaneko, but, as usual from thrift stores, no OS/Software. Is the II+ like the II GS, downloadalbe from the 'Net? Also, is there any software out there? If I can download it from the net, where, and how do I copy it (using either 1.44MB 3.5" or a 360K 5.25" drive, PC, SERIAL connection???) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980126/94d63a10/attachment.html From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 26 08:10:50 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13327293706.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Oh, stop acting like children! I screwed up by misdirecting that message in the first place. Nobody needs to get violent! Just tag the posts [OFF-TOPIC] like is done in a.f.s-m. That way you can kill the message if you don't want to read it. ------- From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jan 26 07:52:34 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: MFM drives & Interlink In-Reply-To: <34C986B9.55BC@konnections.com> Message-ID: <199801261425.IAA28435@onyx.southwind.net> > I saw LapLink Pro and it looked great, but was a bit complex as the > manual seemed ambig. > > On a lark, I picked up some laplink - type yellow cables at the thrift > store and ran them through Interlnk & Intersvr on DOS 6. Worked really > neat. If you have dos on both machines, try that first, if you an > borrow or otherwise get the cables. > > Haven't got the direct connect on '95 to work yet, but that's progress > for ya... > > -Mike > > Uncle Roger wrote: > > > > >My two favorite tools for HD work are the "On-Track Disk Manager > > >program V 5", and "Hard Drive Test Specs" program. DM lets you test, > > >LL format, create, and prep partitions. > > > > I will give a hearty second to the recommendation for Disk Manager. Can't > > be beat. If you've ever swapped a hard drive, or you ever plan to, get > > this program! If you even know what a hard drive is, you should probably > > have it. > > > > Also good is LapLink Pro, which allows you to transfer itself to another > > computer without having to use diskettes -- handy for those older (PC) > > machines (like >10 years) whose floppy drives have gone south, but you want > > access to the hard drive. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > I must be way, way, out there guys. I'm a SpeedStor & FastLynx person, myself. Jeff From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 26 08:52:29 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Offtopic: Can't we all just get along??? In-Reply-To: <13327293706.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980126095229.007f5900@netpath.net> Offtopic observation, last you'll hear from me about it: It seems that there was at least ten times more mail complaining about the "offtopic" thread than the number of messages that made up that thread. Now if it were up to me, I'd rather see a few "offtopic" posts than see all the cat fighting going on because a few people want to complain publicly about a thread, one in particular doing most of the complaining. Different people can interpret a FAQ different ways, no two ways are exactly right. Wouldn't it be best to use that little ole delete key instead of generating even more "offtopic" messages to the list? Maybe I'm alone in my thinking, I can't assume that what I think is precisely what other people think, and I should therefore be the self-appointed leader of said people. This is just my opinion, and I guess it's worth almost as much as the electrons it is printed on. And on that note: I am not writing this message for public reply. If you feel you do have to reply publicly, fine, I can't stop you. If you'd like to tell me where to stick my opinion, I can be flamed at: higginbo@netpath.net (if you do flame, please, at least make it interesting reading, because I have seen just about everything where flames are concerned.) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 26 09:06:17 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) Message-ID: <01bd2a6b$f3faa940$8960bcc1@hotze> Sorry to but in, but some of us ARE CHILDREN. ;-) And, honestly, I hate to point out, but you're acting less mature than we do. Honestly, the guy made a mistake. Why blame him? If there's anyone who can seriously tell me their perfect, then disregard this, but we all make 'em. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) >Oh, stop acting like children! I screwed up by misdirecting that message in >the first place. Nobody needs to get violent! Just tag the posts [OFF-TOPIC] >like is done in a.f.s-m. That way you can kill the message if you don't want to read it. >------- From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jan 26 08:47:53 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <199801252353.PAA29089@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199801261456.IAA09906@onyx.southwind.net> > That's ok, old warnings from the past are hard to get rid of. One > that I heard just tonight was "if you aren't careful when you make your > own booze you can go blind". This came from the era when alcohol was > prohibited, and some unsavory people would repackage denatured alcohol > (ethanol with a percentage of methanol in it to render it poisonous so if > you drink it you will either go blind, or die, thus prevent you from > getting pleasure from UNTAXED alcohol). After a while, they switched to > formula 19 (methyl isobutyl ketone I think) as the denaturant so you don't ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ok, so *thats* why modern denatured alcohol smells like that! I recently bought some from a hardware store to clean circuit boards, and it smelled very strange to me-- it had an MEK 'edge' to it. The last time I used denatured alcohol was almost twenty years ago-- I was un-aware that they had changed the 'formula'. Anyway, I'm seriously considering shelling out some real $$$ for ethanol-- this new denatured stuff leaves a residue which the old formula did not. (Anybody remember 'Zeracol' ?) Jeff From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 26 10:34:18 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > I think the following says all that need be said about this debate. > I received it from Mr. Ismail this evening. No, actually, I think the fact that you took a message intended to be private (to avoid flooding the discussion with off-topic drivel and to avoid you the embarassment) and posted it (without my approval) publicly only tells me that you have a callous disregard for privacy and a callous disregard for the rules of this discussion, and thus have little integrity. Anthony, you have problems. Please seek counseling. For maturity's sake, please direct any follow-ups to private e-mail. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 26 10:39:27 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: 99 cent store find... In-Reply-To: <34CC1811.671D@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > While on a recent excursion to Stockton (a realtively close big city > for us) we stopped by one of those 99 cent clearnace centers and I was > surprised to find boxes of disks available. I picked up 90 DS/DD > diskettes for just $8.91, 9.9 cents for a 'new' brand name disk is > pretty good. Every once in a while you actually find something cool at those places. There is a 99 cent clearance store (same chain as the one you went to Larry) near me where I found a bunch of mid 80s computer programming books (all in a series). The titles were like '6502 Assembly Language Programming' and 'Z-80 Assembly Language Programming', 'FORTH', some others. I bought all of them at $.99 each (about 35 in all) kept a set for myself and sold the rest on Usenet. I still have a few copies left if anyone's interested. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jan 26 10:46:31 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: //gs manuals Message-ID: <0a3942947161a18UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Well, after closer investigation, I found the DOS info that I needed. Sorry for the post. I'd still like the manuals, though. Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 26 11:10:36 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: <13327293706.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Oh, stop acting like children! I screwed up by misdirecting that message in > the first place. Nobody needs to get violent! Just tag the posts [OFF-TOPIC] > like is done in a.f.s-m. That way you can kill the message if you don't want to read it. No, actually, just DON'T POST THE MESSAGE. Re-direct it to the proper Usenet newsgroup and the continue the discussion there if you're so inclined. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jan 26 11:44:57 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer (and other things) Message-ID: <9800268858.AA885865873@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > I'm not that impressed with the 3270pc. I bought it because I wanted > stuff out of it, but it was all pretty much proprietary (and covered > in dust and old) lots of wire wrapping and jumpers, so I just left it > alone. Now I use it to test Linux-16. > > The REAL question is, if IBM used these as terminals which could run > software, what did they have in them allowing them to use the network > ports? I mean that was 1984, DOS might have had some hooks, but they > would have sold it. > > Were these running XENIX/86, CPM86, or what? Anyone know? Anyone have > the software... Um. As I recall, when you booted a 3270PC, it booted MS-DOS from the hard disk as usual. Early on in the boot procedure, it loaded some sort of 3270-terminal-operating-system which grabbed some memory somewhere, locked DOS out of it somehow and REBOOTED. DOS then loaded normally UNDERNEATH the terminal program. The 3270 PC had some extra keys on the keyboard - the function keys (24 of them) were where they are on a modern PC keyboard, but there was a block of keys where they were on the original PC keyboard. These keys did things like switch between your terminal session and your PC session. The keyboard plugged into the terminal card as well as the keyboard port, BTW - I think the terminal card filtered out stuff that wasn't meant for the DOS session. The point was, DOS never knew about the terminal unless you specifically piped data through the terminal program. IBM sold an API (Application Program Interface) which was a piece of software allowing programs running on the PC to type on the terminal, look at the terminal screen memory, etc. Very crude. File transfer software - not very good - was available too. The reason they were rare was that the IBM 3270 terminal protocol (SNA, Systems Network Architecture) was only used on IBM mainframes - not even on the System/3X minis. I don't know how it worked but it was EBCDIC for a start... Returning to the 5155, when I was working at IBM this was the cheapest complete system in the IBM range - it was much the same price as an XT (if not less) and it had a monitor built in. Many IBM employees bought them as an entry level system (IBM required us to sign a contract saying we wouldn't develop software for other than IBM machines - I don't know whether this would have survived a court case!) But there must be some around if only for that reason. Hope this helps! Philip. PS *** Off Topic *** Will Sam and Anthony please go and have their argument somewhere else? The first couple of posts about Anthony's personal testimony were interesting and related to computers. The subsequent argument about drugs and off-topic posts, not to mention mature adults of 17 and silly kids of 30 (I'm one of the latter FWIW) was not. Sam, you say Anthony has problems - but so do you. Will you stop jumping down everybody's throat as soon as the topic starts to drift, please? Finally, alcohol. Interesting points about Prohibition (which we didn't have over here). Thank you whoever posted them (even though off topic). Denatured alcohol here is still "Methylated Spirit" - i.e. it has had methanol added. It has also had pyridine (I think) added to make it look purple and taste foul, and it is therefore even more poisonous, but it doesn't leave a residue. On the subject of home-made booze, if you use the wrong sort of yeast, you may well get methanol in the ferment. During prohibition I'd guess that proper brewer's yeast was not easily available! Apparently potatoes are particularly susceptible, and this has given the traditional Irish spirit made therefrom, Poteen, a bad name for making you literally "blind drunk." Since I am a non-drinker I'd better say no more on that subject... Philip. From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Jan 26 12:45:28 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All I've done Sam is stand up to a bully. If that makes you feel bad, tough. I think you've revealed your own true, hateful nature enough that any further conversation has little purpose. I will be automatically deleting your messages from this point on without reading them. Furthermore, I will CONTINUE to reminisce about the past and collecting computers until such time as Bill Whitson removes me from the list because *I* was never off topic. If you don't like it, send email to Bill or learn to deal with it. You can call me all the names you want to but it doesn't make you right and it doesn't make me wrong. Insult me all you want but I won't take it. If I annoy you personally (nobody else seems annoyed with me), then TOO BAD. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > > I think the following says all that need be said about this debate. > > I received it from Mr. Ismail this evening. > > No, actually, I think the fact that you took a message intended to be > private (to avoid flooding the discussion with off-topic drivel and to > avoid you the embarassment) and posted it (without my approval) publicly > only tells me that you have a callous disregard for privacy and a callous > disregard for the rules of this discussion, and thus have little > integrity. > > Anthony, you have problems. Please seek counseling. > > For maturity's sake, please direct any follow-ups to private e-mail. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jan 26 13:01:43 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: "Black Apple" Floppy Drive Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2079F89EB@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Somebody's selling a Bell & Howell "black Apple" floppy drive on Ebay: http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4986738 From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 13:45:26 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) (fwd) Message-ID: <199801261945.MAA14145@konnections.com> Yeah, so, he mailed a personal note, off line off the list, like he's supposed to, so that there isn't a bunch of drivvel on the list. That's the whole point to this seemingly pointless discussion. -Mike Allison ---------- > > I think the following says all that need be said about this debate. > I received it from Mr. Ismail this evening. > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Jan 26 13:53:47 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Looking for a Fujitsu M2382 User Message-ID: <199801261953.LAA10852@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi All: The title says it all. I have a sick M2382 SMD drive, and am looking for someone who is running one successfully, so that we can compare switch settings, QD32 or QD33 parameters, or documentation. The drive's on a known-good QD32 on a Microvax II. It's in tandem with an M2372, on the same QD32. The M2372 drive is working well. Thanks, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 14:02:18 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980126071826.47574720@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > > That's ok, old warnings from the past are hard to get rid of. One > >that I heard just tonight was "if you aren't careful when you make your > >own booze you can go blind". This came from the era when alcohol was > >prohibited, and some unsavory people would repackage denatured alcohol > >(ethanol with a percentage of methanol in it to render it poisonous so if > >you drink it you will either go blind, or die, thus prevent you from > >getting pleasure from UNTAXED alcohol). After a while, they switched to > > FWIW It wasn't just denatured alcohol that made you go blind. It was > the lead solder that some people used to solder the copper together to make > stills from. The old time moon shiners put copper stills together without > solder but during prohibition a lot of quickie stills were put together > with gobs of solder and the lead would leach out. Anyone here ever study > moon shining? Fasinating subject (except to Sam of course). Actually, this isn't correct either. It wasn't the "joints" soldered with lead based solder that was the problem. You see, there can be lead anywhere the mash boils, or anywhere the steam exists, but WHERE THE LIQUID CONDENSES, it needs to be pure copper, pure nickel, whatever. What the moonshiners were doing was using OLD TRUCK RADIATORS as condensers, and if you look inside a radiator, especially an old one, you see that all the copper pieces are sweat-soldered together. About 25% of the condensation surface in a radiator is solder. THAT was the problem. FYI, lead doesn't cause you to go blind, but causes neurological damage, insanity, the like. :) Keep your condensation surface pure copper and you'll be ok. :) If you buy moonshine and want to make sure it is pure, you can pass it through an aluminum salt (can't remember which one tho) that will precipitate the lead out. However, best advice, make your own, that way you know your product is pure, because you made your own condenser. A side note, an all GLASS condensation device is best! Just buy a laboratory grade liebig condenser and you're all set...........sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From aaron at prinsol.com Mon Jan 26 14:17:25 1998 From: aaron at prinsol.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: 99 cent store find... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd be interested in the 6502 and Z-80 assembly books. How much are you looking for for each? Aaron On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > > While on a recent excursion to Stockton (a realtively close big city > > for us) we stopped by one of those 99 cent clearnace centers and I was > > surprised to find boxes of disks available. I picked up 90 DS/DD > > diskettes for just $8.91, 9.9 cents for a 'new' brand name disk is > > pretty good. > > Every once in a while you actually find something cool at those places. > There is a 99 cent clearance store (same chain as the one you went to > Larry) near me where I found a bunch of mid 80s computer programming books > (all in a series). The titles were like '6502 Assembly Language > Programming' and 'Z-80 Assembly Language Programming', 'FORTH', some > others. I bought all of them at $.99 each (about 35 in all) kept a set > for myself and sold the rest on Usenet. I still have a few copies left if > anyone's interested. > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 26 14:21:50 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: MFM drives & Interlink In-Reply-To: <199801261425.IAA28435@onyx.southwind.net> References: <199801261425.IAA28435@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <34ccef98.1219060@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:52:34 -0600, you said: >I must be way, way, out there guys. I'm a SpeedStor & FastLynx >person, myself. OK, now I'll show my ignorance publicly; isn't Speedstor a disk compression program? (I think it came\comes with DR-DOS) is it functionally related to DM/Interlnk/Laplink? Also; what is FastLynx? _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jan 26 13:36:18 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Better Computing Through Alcohol In-Reply-To: <9800268858.AA885865873@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199801262006.OAA13111@onyx.southwind.net> > Finally, alcohol. Interesting points about Prohibition (which we didn't > have over here). Thank you whoever posted them (even though off topic). > Denatured alcohol here is still "Methylated Spirit" - i.e. it has had > methanol added. It has also had pyridine (I think) added to make it > look purple and taste foul, and it is therefore even more poisonous, but > it doesn't leave a residue. Actually, I considered the topic of alcohol to be on topic. One of the things I have had to deal with is old circuit boards that were hand-assembled. Typically, the solder side of these boards are covered with flux resudue. Now I realize that this residue is inert, and has reasonably good dielectic properties, but it makes the assembly look like h***. I'm into the habit of cleaning this stuff off, and to me, nothing works better than pure 'hooch' (chloro-clean is a tad expensive, and I consider MEK to be a bit too harsh). Jeff From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 14:14:17 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Luggables Message-ID: <199801262031.NAA15386@konnections.com> Yeah, I've been looking for an expansion module. Hope I see one....if anyone sees any let me know what the going prices are... (It probably just went up in value.....) -Mike ---------- > From: Olminkhof > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Luggables > Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 5:08 AM > > > > >The original "suitcase" portable, I have to agree, but the lunch box > >portables are quite nice. Though I expected some access to an ISA bus > >in the Compaq III, there weren't any. That's the one nice advantage to > >the luggable -- they're expandable, to a degree... > > > The Portable III often comes with an expansion box that fits on the back. > Makes the package a "big" lunchbox and has room for 2 or 3 ISA cards. Most I > have seen have VGA and network cards in there. > From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 14:17:40 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) Message-ID: <199801262031.NAA15390@konnections.com> The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the majority are pertinent and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent. All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line... -Mike ---------- > From: Brett > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) > Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 6:05 AM > > > > I personally enjoyed reading the posts. I usually pick and choose > anyway - something Sam could do as well. > > BC > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 26 09:43:27 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Better Computing Through Alcohol In-Reply-To: <199801262006.OAA13111@onyx.southwind.net> References: <9800268858.AA885865873@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199801262038.PAA29609@mail.cgocable.net> > Actually, I considered the topic of alcohol to be on topic. One of > the things I have had to deal with is old circuit boards that were > hand-assembled. Typically, the solder side of these boards are > covered with flux resudue. > > Now I realize that this residue is inert, and has reasonably good > dielectic properties, but it makes the assembly look like h***. I'm > into the habit of cleaning this stuff off, and to me, nothing works > better than pure 'hooch' (chloro-clean is a tad expensive, and I > consider MEK to be a bit too harsh). > > > Jeff Does that flux suck moisture in over time and gives funny problems with electronics? Because, I cleaned out old flux of some cheapo stuff and sometime that helped. Take care anyone! Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 14:38:45 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Brett wrote: > Now - I have to state that I am in some agreement with Sam but I also > disagree. The drug culture predates computers (as discussed here) by > serveral centuries (certainly meets the 10 yr rule 8-) And the drug > culture (as discussed here) is an integral part of the early computer > culture (at least in the U.S.) Anyone who attempts to ignore that is > well - Stupid! For some, computers were the anti-drug program of the > day. For others, the other way around. It the early days of computers, when I used to hang out at the college computer lab (where my mom worked) to get a chance at the computer when someone who signed up for it, forgot to show up for their turn, I'd sit down and hack away. Back in those days (pre-micro days) all the computer enthusiasts had long hair in a pony tail and smoked pot regularly. Typically, we'd smoke pot BEFORE we'd start hacking. ;) It wasn't until I got my KIM-1 and started hanging around micro enthusiasts that I noticed a trend toward short hair, NON-drug use, and (for want of a better word) geeks. The long haired pot smoking hacker was more of a nerd while the micro hacker was more towards the geek. However, in those days, a geek was very bright, they had to be, you had to build most of your own stuff, while today it's all GUI and plug&play (tm) technology...........sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From martin at paladio.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 26 14:15:03 1998 From: martin at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive In-Reply-To: <34CBB4B8.3B5A@studiobuffo.com.pl> Message-ID: Jarek The drives have rubber parts that cushion the heads when they're disengaged with the discs. Over time these become very sticky and will hold the head off the surface of the disc and can give faulty read/writes .... the remedy is to just remove them, the drives work perfectly without. Ours did this after about 8 years and after taking the parts off ahve worked for another 3 year with no problems. (I presume you're using them with an SSL mixing console 'cos they recommend this.) In article <34CBB4B8.3B5A@studiobuffo.com.pl>, Jarek writes >I am looking for 20M removable bernoulli drives. I use them in my music >console rack. Since two weeks I have problem with it and I can't read >old data. I make few radical steps included filter exchange but without >succes. This units are dedicated to my system and I can replace it only >for the same 20M drives. Maybe somebody, somewhere has useless items in >a basement store... >Thanks for colaboration. >Jarek >Warsaw 25.01.98 Martin Evans of Strawberry Hill & Central London - Mail me on London's history & topography, architecture, second-hand bookshops, food, pro-audio engineering, museums, collecting and wood-engraving. From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 14:51:33 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <199801261456.IAA09906@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > formula 19 (methyl isobutyl ketone I think) as the denaturant so you don't > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Ok, so *thats* why modern denatured alcohol smells like that! I > recently bought some from a hardware store to clean circuit boards, > and it smelled very strange to me-- it had an MEK 'edge' to it. The > last time I used denatured alcohol was almost twenty years ago-- I > was un-aware that they had changed the 'formula'. They changed it because ethanol/methanol mix is pleasant smelling, people might WANT to take a drink. Drinking results in blindness or death. By using 4% methyl isobutyl ketone (that's it, I checked) people take a whiff, it stinks, they take a sip, it tastes horrible, they drink anyway, they become violently ill (projectile vomiting) but they don't die, and they don't go blind. This is formula 19, formula 1 is 5% methanol, formula 2 was .5% benzene, so you can see the trend now is less to kill the non-tax-paying drinkers, and more to just make them sick. > Anyway, I'm seriously considering shelling out some real $$$ for > ethanol-- this new denatured stuff leaves a residue which the old > formula did not. (Anybody remember 'Zeracol' ?) Just use straight methanol, it's poisonous, but not too stinky, and should NOT leave a residue. Either that or pure acetone. You don't have to use ethanol for just cleaning purposes, besides, cleaning boards I find 99% isopropyl alcohol works best, you can't drink it, it's cheap, and it's pure. :) Buy it at the drugstore, it's used for cleaning the injection site for diabetics, just ask for it at the back counter.......sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 14:46:10 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer (and other things) Message-ID: <199801262051.NAA16015@konnections.com> I wouldn't know if my 3270pc is original or not, but there's no extended keyboard. -Mike ---------- > From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re[2]: IBM Portable Personal Computer (and other things) > Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 10:44 AM > > > I'm not that impressed with the 3270pc. I bought it because I wanted > > stuff out of it, but it was all pretty much proprietary (and covered > > in dust and old) lots of wire wrapping and jumpers, so I just left it > > alone. Now I use it to test Linux-16. > > > > The REAL question is, if IBM used these as terminals which could run > > software, what did they have in them allowing them to use the network > > ports? I mean that was 1984, DOS might have had some hooks, but they > > would have sold it. > > > > Were these running XENIX/86, CPM86, or what? Anyone know? Anyone have > > the software... > > Um. As I recall, when you booted a 3270PC, it booted MS-DOS from the > hard disk as usual. Early on in the boot procedure, it loaded some sort > of 3270-terminal-operating-system which grabbed some memory somewhere, > locked DOS out of it somehow and REBOOTED. DOS then loaded normally > UNDERNEATH the terminal program. > > The 3270 PC had some extra keys on the keyboard - the function keys (24 > of them) were where they are on a modern PC keyboard, but there was a > block of keys where they were on the original PC keyboard. These keys > did things like switch between your terminal session and your PC > session. The keyboard plugged into the terminal card as well as the > keyboard port, BTW - I think the terminal card filtered out stuff that > wasn't meant for the DOS session. The point was, DOS never knew about > the terminal unless you specifically piped data through the terminal > program. > > From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 15:03:33 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Great, but what does homemade booze have to do with collecting old > computers? Well, one guy wondered what it was that caused denatured alcohol to leave residue on his computer printed circuit boards he was cleaning. My off-topic message answered that question he never even asked. :) Now if you'd like to eat your words, start munching. :) My off-topic post was of benefit to ONE PERSON, and that's enough to justify it's creation. sq (just put the unique word "Squest" in your killfile if you don't like it.) -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 26 15:26:29 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: This is the end... (Compaq buys DEC) Message-ID: <13327373014.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, look here... http://www.digital.com/flash/f192 It's the end of Aplha, I know that... Compaq likes Intel, and so they'll do Intel a favor and kill Alpha off. Then all DEC will make is PC clones... And that's the end of decent architectures from Maynard! ------- From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jan 26 15:01:39 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: MFM drives & Interlink In-Reply-To: <34ccef98.1219060@mail.swbell.net> References: <199801261425.IAA28435@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <199801262110.PAA07540@onyx.southwind.net> > > >I must be way, way, out there guys. I'm a SpeedStor & FastLynx > >person, myself. > > OK, now I'll show my ignorance publicly; isn't Speedstor a disk > compression program? (I think it came\comes with DR-DOS) is it > functionally related to DM/Interlnk/Laplink? > > Also; what is FastLynx? > _______________ > > Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net > Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, > Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. > SpeedStor is (er, was) a general purpose disk tool for low-level formatting, partitioning, and high-level formatting just about ANY mfm disk drive ever built. It could be used on some ESDI drives, but my experiences with this were not good. I wrecked a few of the early IDE drives with it =:-0. It was produced by Storage Dimensions, and was a direct competitor with DiskMangler ;-). Unlike DiskManager though, it never did support IDE drives very well, hence it faded away. It was good while it was around, though. It was the first program I can remember that offered an (almost) fool-proof method of making partitions >30Mb (remember this was before dos 4.0). FastLynx: A program from RUPP corporation, alot like LapLink, except with a much simpler (and easier to use) user interface (IMHO). The program died off though, as Lap Link became more popular (I still don't understand why). If you used the serial link, it could upload itself to the target machine. I still use it. Jeff From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Jan 26 16:00:40 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Mid-Atlantic Antique Computer Club Message-ID: <1998Jan26.170013.1767.78281@smtp.itgonline.com> To whom it may concern: I would like to get in touch with anybody interested in 'antique' computers, especially in the Washington, DC metropolitan area to exchange info and perhaps start an east coast collector organization. Please email me: marty@itgonline.com Thanks- Marty Mintzell 5635 Heming avenue Springfield, Virginia 22151 703-569-2380 email:marty@itgonline.com From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jan 26 15:17:15 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: Better Computing Through Alcohol In-Reply-To: <199801262038.PAA29609@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199801262006.OAA13111@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <199801262141.PAA19878@onyx.southwind.net> > Does that flux suck moisture in over time and gives funny problems > with electronics? Because, I cleaned out old flux of some cheapo > stuff and sometime that helped. > > Take care anyone! > > Jason D. > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca > Pero, Jason D. > You know, I have long argued that this stuff decomposed over time, but I never got any hard evidence on this. All I know is, that when I worked for FLUKE in the early 80's, it was SOP to remove all traces of flux from assemblies after they were repaired. The metrology guys figured it helped long-term repeatability and drift. Old habits are hard to break. Jeff From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 26 17:14:43 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:27 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <199801261456.IAA09906@onyx.southwind.net> References: <199801252353.PAA29089@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980126171443.47affe86@intellistar.net> At 08:47 AM 1/26/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >> That's ok, old warnings from the past are hard to get rid of. One >> that I heard just tonight was "if you aren't careful when you make your >> own booze you can go blind". This came from the era when alcohol was >> prohibited, and some unsavory people would repackage denatured alcohol >> (ethanol with a percentage of methanol in it to render it poisonous so if >> you drink it you will either go blind, or die, thus prevent you from >> getting pleasure from UNTAXED alcohol). After a while, they switched to >> formula 19 (methyl isobutyl ketone I think) as the denaturant so you don't > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Ok, so *thats* why modern denatured alcohol smells like that! I >recently bought some from a hardware store to clean circuit boards, >and it smelled very strange to me-- it had an MEK 'edge' to it. The >last time I used denatured alcohol was almost twenty years ago-- I >was un-aware that they had changed the 'formula'. > >Anyway, I'm seriously considering shelling out some real $$$ for >ethanol-- this new denatured stuff leaves a residue which the old >formula did not. (Anybody remember 'Zeracol' ?) > >Jeff > Jeff, I don't know if it's true but I've been told that different companys use different things to "denature" alcohol. I was told that they can use any additive that makes the alcohol undrinkable and that one common addative is kerosene. FWIW I usw A LOT of denatured alcohol for cleanning electronics and the brand that I use does not seem to leave a resisdue. I've had no problems using it. I can find the original can and get the brand name if you like. Joe From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 26 11:39:10 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Better Computing Through Alcohol In-Reply-To: <199801262141.PAA19878@onyx.southwind.net> References: <199801262038.PAA29609@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199801262233.RAA24525@mail.cgocable.net> Major snipe! > You know, I have long argued that this stuff decomposed over time, > but I never got any hard evidence on this. All I know is, that when > I worked for FLUKE in the early 80's, it was SOP to remove all traces > of flux from assemblies after they were repaired. The metrology guys > figured it helped long-term repeatability and drift. > > Old habits are hard to break. > > Jeff > Well, this was not certainly old habits, I have very inate (unatural) strong intinitive (6th sense) of noticing something is amiss and fix by anormal manner. When I come across any equipment that is years or 1 year old, scraped the flux, it came off like 3 days old icing in clumps and bit sticky. When scraping the freshly, seconds old, soldered joint with too much flux, chips and shatters like a glass. So, still wants to know. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From Squest at cris.com Mon Jan 26 16:58:10 1998 From: Squest at cris.com (Steve J. Quest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980126171443.47affe86@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > I don't know if it's true but I've been told that different companys use > different things to "denature" alcohol. I was told that they can use any > additive that makes the alcohol undrinkable and that one common addative is > kerosene. FWIW I usw A LOT of denatured alcohol for cleanning electronics > and the brand that I use does not seem to leave a resisdue. I've had no > problems using it. I can find the original can and get the brand name if > you like. Kerosene can be used in "fuel alcohol", so can methanol. There is a BATF document somewhere on their website that details what denaturants can be used for each application. There is also SP alcohol which is denatured using thymol to make it taste bad but not to be toxic (Listerine mouthwash). Don't know the BATF formula number tho.......sq -- ----------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom MicroPower FM Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 26 17:59:58 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer (and other things) In-Reply-To: <9800268858.AA885865873@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980126175958.47b7fcbe@intellistar.net> At 05:44 PM 1/26/98 GMT, Phillip wrote: > >PS *** Off Topic *** > >Will Sam and Anthony please go and have their argument somewhere else? Here! Here! > >The first couple of posts about Anthony's personal testimony were >interesting and related to computers. The subsequent argument about >drugs and off-topic posts, not to mention mature adults of 17 and silly >kids of 30 (I'm one of the latter FWIW) was not. > >Sam, you say Anthony has problems - but so do you. Will you stop >jumping down everybody's throat as soon as the topic starts to drift, >please? > >Finally, alcohol. Interesting points about Prohibition (which we didn't >have over here). Thank you whoever posted them (even though off topic). >Denatured alcohol here is still "Methylated Spirit" - i.e. it has had >methanol added. It has also had pyridine (I think) added to make it >look purple and taste foul, and it is therefore even more poisonous, but >it doesn't leave a residue. They don't add that here in the US. But the US Navy uses alcohol for servicing torpedos (it literally is torpedo fluid!) and it is purplish so it may have pyridine added. The denatured alcohol here seems to be as usuable as ethyl alcohol for everything except drinking. I've had no problems using it to service electronics equipment. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 26 18:24:34 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: MFM drives & Interlink In-Reply-To: <34ccef98.1219060@mail.swbell.net> References: <199801261425.IAA28435@onyx.southwind.net> <199801261425.IAA28435@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980126182434.47b7a3f8@intellistar.net> At 08:21 PM 1/26/98 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:52:34 -0600, you said: > > > >>I must be way, way, out there guys. I'm a SpeedStor & FastLynx >>person, myself. > >OK, now I'll show my ignorance publicly; isn't Speedstor a disk >compression program? (I think it came\comes with DR-DOS) is it >functionally related to DM/Interlnk/Laplink? > >Also; what is FastLynx? >Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Fastlynx is another file transfer program similar to LapLink. I've used both, I like FastLynx MUCH better. I even use it when exploring unknown disks in a local (non-connected mode). If you have to transfer files between two systems these programs are the greatest think since sliced bread! FWIW the cables are the same and will work with either program. Joe From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 26 17:27:43 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Better Computing Through Alcohol In-Reply-To: <199801262141.PAA19878@onyx.southwind.net> References: <199801262006.OAA13111@onyx.southwind.net> <199801262141.PAA19878@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <34cd1a6f.10489027@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:17:15 -0600, you said: >All I know is, that when >I worked for FLUKE in the early 80's, it was SOP to remove all traces >of flux from assemblies after they were repaired. During my working-for-the government days, we (they, actually) were required to remove ALL traces of flux from circuit boards. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 26 17:41:10 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: MFM drives & Interlink In-Reply-To: <199801262110.PAA07540@onyx.southwind.net> References: <199801261425.IAA28435@onyx.southwind.net> <199801262110.PAA07540@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <34ce1e2c.11445710@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:01:39 -0600, you said: >> OK, now I'll show my ignorance publicly; isn't Speedstor a disk >> compression program? (I think it came\comes with DR-DOS) is it >> functionally related to DM/Interlnk/Laplink? >SpeedStor is (er, was) a general purpose disk tool for low-level >formatting, partitioning, and high-level formatting just about ANY >mfm disk drive ever built. It could be used on some ESDI drives, but >my experiences with this were not good. I've discovered the source of (one of) my confusions; the SSTOR I'm thinking of is SuperStor. It's similar to Stacker and dbl/drvspace. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jan 26 17:33:51 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! Message-ID: <004701bd2ab9$5ab26900$54987c0a@office1> Well, you could see it coming. Poor financial performance (and hence, weak stock price) over the last few years. Weak products. Then, DEC sells-out the Crown Jewels (its Alpha procesor) to Intel. After listening to an interview with Eckhard Pfeiffer of Compaq, they paid $9.6 billion for DEC's customer list, not its products. He mentions nothing about DEC's products. It's a shame...but it seems to me that DEC should have seen it coming. Death comes to the last of the old-line computer companies. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From dastar at wco.com Mon Jan 26 18:26:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) In-Reply-To: <199801262031.NAA15390@konnections.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the majority are pertinent > and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent. > > All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions > as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line... Very good point. And I'd like to make one more point and then I'll move on. I've been subscribed to this list longer than any of the bone-heads who are posting off-topic, since its inception in fact (I guess I could be considered a charter member). I know what the group was originally intended for because I in part helped create that intent. With the exception of the blatantly off-topic crap we've seen in the last week, and aside from the OCCASIONAL straying (the kind that is the exception rather than the norm) the quality of discussion has remained fairly high. I would hate for this discussion group to plunge into the anarchy that one would find on any common Usenet newsgroup just because some selfish assholes want to talk about their own interests. I'm sorry, but that is wholly unacceptable, and I'm not just going to allow it to happen. This discussion was created for the purposes that are clearly outlined in the FAQ. I'm not a jerk. I'm mostly reasonable and don't get offended easily, nor do I make it a point to step on anyone's toes for bending the rules a little. But what we've seen lately is a total disregard for the basic guidelines. In fact, we already went over this and it was commonly agreed that we're all here to talk about old computers and closely related topics. How discussions of acid trips, stilling alcohol and our own personal acheivements fits in I do not know. ANYHOW.... I've been picking up a lot of great books lately in thrift stores. I found a couple different volumes on the UCSD Pascal P-code system. I got the IBM Options and Adaptors Technical Reference Volume 3 (I believe I have Vols. 1&2 at home), I got a dBase II manual for the Osborne(!) but unfortunately no software. I think my best find was Zork I on 8" floppy in the original packaging with all the original inserts. Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80 Applications Software Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book is pretty big. I also found some armed forces computer coursework manuals which are pretty interesting. I found one called _Introduction to Programming in BASIC_ from a Navy traing course. I also found a manual on programming in (I forget which language) on a CDC Cyber mainframe. Both of these are from the late 70s. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 26 18:51:33 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980126114148.3b872194@ricochet.net> >512K). [Hey Roger, it's got a handle!] I was also able to find the Yep, it was (kinda) a clone of the Compaq (which was, of course, and IBM PC clone...) >QUESTION: Does anyone know how many of these were produced? According to Haddock: "Was in production by 1984, and was withdrawn on April 2, 1986. Not many of these machines were made." Also: "This portable had eight expansion slots and used an XT motherboard." --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jan 26 18:51:44 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Luggables Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980126134119.3b87094e@ricochet.net> At 01:14 PM 1/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >Yeah, I've been looking for an expansion module. Hope I see one....if >anyone sees any let me know what the going prices are... There was one for sale recently on ebay; I forget what it eventually sold for, but it was: Compaq Portable III ISA Expansion Unit. (item #3694518) You can do a search to look up the final price. Also, I know where there may be one for $100, but you have to take the Compaq it's attached to as well. 8^) (Condition unknown, etc.; it's outta my price range.) P.S., Just to let folks know, this list doesn't get anywhere near as off-topic as a couple of Land Rover lists I'm on, and it is nowhere near as well policed as the Dressage list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Jan 26 19:33:39 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Luggables In-Reply-To: <01bd2a53$1edd1760$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980126203339.007c4e70@hiway1.exit109.com> At 11:08 pm 1/26/98 +1100, you wrote: > > >>The original "suitcase" portable, I have to agree, but the lunch box >>portables are quite nice. Though I expected some access to an ISA bus >>in the Compaq III, there weren't any. That's the one nice advantage to >>the luggable -- they're expandable, to a degree... > > >The Portable III often comes with an expansion box that fits on the back. >Makes the package a "big" lunchbox and has room for 2 or 3 ISA cards. Most I >have seen have VGA and network cards in there. Check out Timco Computers (www.timco-computers.com, lance@lance.seanet.net). IIRC, he has the box on his price list for something like $10. <<>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 26 19:08:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980126114148.3b872194@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 26, 98 06:51:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 999 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/1db46226/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 26 19:44:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: This is the end... (Compaq buys DEC) In-Reply-To: <13327373014.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >Well, look here... > >http://www.digital.com/flash/f192 > >It's the end of Aplha, I know that... Compaq likes Intel, and so they'll do >Intel a favor and kill Alpha off. Then all DEC will make is PC clones... >And that's the end of decent architectures from Maynard! >------- Here is a thought for you. Gateway 2000 owns Amiga Inc/International, and now Compaq owns DEC. What's up with all these PeeCee companies buying non-PC companies? The common denominator I see is that they've got OS's that compete with MessySoft. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jan 26 19:48:47 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Steve J. Quest wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Brett wrote: > > > Now - I have to state that I am in some agreement with Sam but I also > > disagree. The drug culture predates computers (as discussed here) by > > serveral centuries (certainly meets the 10 yr rule 8-) And the drug > > culture (as discussed here) is an integral part of the early computer > > culture (at least in the U.S.) Anyone who attempts to ignore that is > > well - Stupid! For some, computers were the anti-drug program of the > > day. For others, the other way around. > > It the early days of computers, when I used to hang out at the > college computer lab (where my mom worked) to get a chance at the computer > when someone who signed up for it, forgot to show up for their turn, I'd > sit down and hack away. Back in those days (pre-micro days) all the > computer enthusiasts had long hair in a pony tail and smoked pot > regularly. Typically, we'd smoke pot BEFORE we'd start hacking. ;) It > wasn't until I got my KIM-1 and started hanging around micro enthusiasts I still have my KIM-1 8-) > that I noticed a trend toward short hair, NON-drug use, and (for want of a > better word) geeks. The long haired pot smoking hacker was more of a nerd > while the micro hacker was more towards the geek. However, in those days, > a geek was very bright, they had to be, you had to build most of your own > stuff, while today it's all GUI and plug&play (tm) technology...........sq And Steve that is the point - in a way. The 'High' I get from bringing some poor beastie up from the grave or getting that bit-twiddle interface to finally work right far exceeds any drugs I have ever done 8-) And when I look at my PDP-11's - it brings an immediate flash back! One thing that scares me though is how the 'users' of today are M O R E braindead than the druggies of yesteryear! It must have been all that T.V. they watched 8-) They problem is loosing the 'Solving Process' mentality. It allows anyone to hype something as a solution to your problem and make you pay for it. And - Gee - just like drugs - it won't solve anything! Because you are not Solving the Problem. Well I have some Problems to Solve now so will let you all get back to your regularly scheduled discussion 8-) BC From pvhp at forte.com Mon Jan 26 19:57:30 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! Message-ID: <9801270157.AA04358@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: DEC Sold to Compaq! Richard A. Cini wrote: >Well, you could see it coming. Poor financial performance (and hence, weak >stock price) over the last few years. Weak products. Then, DEC sells-out the >Crown Jewels (its Alpha procesor) to Intel. > > After listening to an interview with Eckhard Pfeiffer of Compaq, they >paid $9.6 billion for DEC's customer list, not its products. He mentions >nothing about DEC's products. According to the scoop on DEC web pages and in comp.os.vms and various VMS mailing list he said: We are committed to...investing in Digital's strategic assets, particularly its worldwide service organization, as well as its 64-bit leadership with Alpha microprocessors, OpenVMS, Digital UNIX and Windows NT enterprise systems, open storage, and software products," Eckhard Pfeiffer, president and chief executive officer of Compaq, said in a statement. And all the VMS geeks are tickled pink that he mentioned VMS first on the list of OSes and point out that DEC CEO Bob Palmer hasn't been known to do that. > It's a shame...but it seems to me that DEC should have seen it coming. >Death comes to the last of the old-line computer companies. Well IBM is still alive and kicking (rumour is that the whole OS/2 shop has been fired/re-assigned/real-estate liqidated but AS/400 minis and mainframes are making a strong comeback). I Don't know much about Unisys though... Peter Prymmer From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jan 26 20:06:47 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > > > The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the majority are pertinent > > and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent. > > > > All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions > > as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line... First - for Mike - And how do we find out if any one wishes to discuss this on-line or off-line??? > Very good point. And I'd like to make one more point and then I'll move > on. I've been subscribed to this list longer than any of the bone-heads > who are posting off-topic, since its inception in fact (I guess I could be > considered a charter member). I know what the group was originally > intended for because I in part helped create that intent. Sam - in your own words 8-) > and our own personal acheivements fits in I do not know. So What! I think I was here before you so it means nothing! > With the > exception of the blatantly off-topic crap we've seen in the last week, and > aside from the OCCASIONAL straying (the kind that is the exception rather > than the norm) the quality of discussion has remained fairly high. I > would hate for this discussion group to plunge into the anarchy that one > would find on any common Usenet newsgroup just because some selfish > assholes want to talk about their own interests. Very true 8-) I think we had this discussion before. We always have few that run off-topic AND THEY ALWAYS clean up by themselves - until you show up 8-( They would run out of steam on thier own - if you would only learn patience! > I'm sorry, but that is > wholly unacceptable, and I'm not just going to allow it to happen. Ohhhhhh! I see - This is YOUR list - we been there and did that before Sam - don't try to start it up again! > This > discussion was created for the purposes that are clearly outlined in the > FAQ. I'm not a jerk. I'm mostly reasonable and don't get offended > easily, nor do I make it a point to step on anyone's toes for bending the > rules a little. But what we've seen lately is a total disregard for the > basic guidelines. In fact, we already went over this and it was commonly > agreed that we're all here to talk about old computers and closely related > topics. Good - all your brain cells aren't gone! > How discussions of acid trips, stilling alcohol and our own > personal acheivements fits in I do not know. > > ANYHOW.... And now for a list of - gee - personal acheivements! > I've been picking up a lot of great books lately in thrift stores. I > found a couple different volumes on the UCSD Pascal P-code system. I got > the IBM Options and Adaptors Technical Reference Volume 3 (I believe I > have Vols. 1&2 at home), I got a dBase II manual for the Osborne(!) but > unfortunately no software. I think my best find was Zork I on 8" floppy > in the original packaging with all the original inserts. Nice find actually! > Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80 Applications Software > Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't > realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book > is pretty big. > > I also found some armed forces computer coursework manuals which are > pretty interesting. I found one called _Introduction to Programming in > BASIC_ from a Navy traing course. I also found a manual on programming in > (I forget which language) on a CDC Cyber mainframe. Both of these are > from the late 70s. Awww gee - And I got a great personal achievemant story about the early Navy training that I can't tell - Darn! BC From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 20:29:39 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> I just picked up a book on Macintosh Think C (MS Press, 50c, I didn't bother getting Macsbug and others, also 50c each). For one thing, does anyone have an extra/unvalued license copy of THINK C, version 2.1-5.0? Also, what was the first programming language (I mean not binary or assembly)? Another thing: CP/M was run on just about everything, usually with about 64K ram. How is it that MS-DOS blew up to about 384K? What did they put in there? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Jan 26 20:39:25 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Offtopic: Can't we all just get along??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980126095229.007f5900@netpath.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980126095229.007f5900@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34d44742.100929589@hoser> I agree 100%. I suppose I was one of the "off-topic" posters, because I enjoy seeing a little bit of the people behind the text that scrolls up my screen every night. I don't know what happened during Sam's childhood to make him so anal, and I'm pretty sure I don't _want_ to know! I read the list because it's fun to read about people's experiences with computers, both in rescuing them from oblivion now, and in learning about them in the first place. If I wanted static, dead, impersonal knowledge, I'd buy a book; I'm here for the people who care about the old machines as much as I am the machines themselves. I was keeping my peace (even through Sam's implication that I'm an AOL user...) until I saw the vitriolic heap of dung our pal Sam dumped on poor Anthony (Wirehead); after that, I lobbed my own little textual grenade into Sam's mailbox. It probably won't make me more popular, but I don't think he should get away with trashing people's feelings and experiences because he's too lazy to hit the "next message" key a couple times. On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:52:29 -0500, you wrote: >Offtopic observation, last you'll hear from me about it: > >It seems that there was at least ten times more mail complaining about the >"offtopic" thread than the number of messages that made up that thread. Now >if it were up to me, I'd rather see a few "offtopic" posts than see all the >cat fighting going on because a few people want to complain publicly about >a thread, one in particular doing most of the complaining. Different people -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 26 20:51:08 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <34cd4b0f.22936680@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:29:39 PST, you said: >Another thing: CP/M was run on just about everything, usually with >about 64K ram. How is it that MS-DOS blew up to about 384K? What >did they put in there? IIRC, the original IBM PC came with 64K, monochrome, a cassette interface, and Basic in ROM. Of course, many buyers upgraded. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From adam at merlin.net.au Sun Jan 25 21:52:48 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: DEC and Apricots Message-ID: <199801270252.NAA05555@arthur.merlin.net.au> >>2) I heard of a machine called the Apricot, which came in a portable >>model w/voice recognition, and several desktop ones. It seems they >>were all Intel-based. Could someone tell me if they were really good >>as far as the GUI and voice recognition and everything else, or just >>commercial junk? How much would these machines go for? >The GUI was quite primitive compared to say a Mac of the same era. Mine are >all monochrome, don't know if there was a color version. Hadn't heard of the >voice recognition before. I've never used one myself, so I can't comment on the GUI. However the portable Apricot did indeed have voice recognition. It was a nice box - a very attractive V-shaped design (to put the monitor at a good angle), light keyboard, and voice recognition. It was also black, which is a fine thing. However, it was a membrane keyboard similar to the Sinclair QL, the voice recog was not very good, suffered from an awful microphone (apparantly you had to almost literally swallow it before it could pick up anything), and the neat V-shape meant that you could not adjust the monitor angle - which was not good at all, as it was one of those early LCD sorts where than angle had to be perfect. It did run MS-DOS, but wasn't 100% compat. My faviourite touch, though, was that if you included an external monitor, the LCD one could be used independently - much like on the Mac Powerbooks. If anyone knows where I can get one please let me know - it's near the top of my wish list. Adam. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 26 22:01:05 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <34cd4b0f.22936680@mail.swbell.net> References: <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980126220105.6e5fdc48@intellistar.net> At 02:51 AM 1/27/98 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:29:39 PST, you said: > >>Another thing: CP/M was run on just about everything, usually with >>about 64K ram. How is it that MS-DOS blew up to about 384K? What >>did they put in there? > >IIRC, the original IBM PC came with 64K, monochrome, a cassette >interface, and Basic in ROM. Of course, many buyers upgraded. BTW has anyone ever seen someone use the cassette port? I supported several hundred early PC user's and never even heard of anyone using the cassette port. Joe >_______________ > >Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net >Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, >Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. > From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 21:21:34 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: This is the end... (Compaq buys DEC) References: <13327373014.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <34CD52BD.5EAE@konnections.com> I think you have it backwards. Compaq is already about the #1 PC maker. I think they want a piece of the major business networking & high end market. This deal makes them #1 period across the board from pc to supermicro/networks, behind IBM, of course.... -Mike Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Well, look here... > > http://www.digital.com/flash/f192 > > It's the end of Aplha, I know that... Compaq likes Intel, and so they'll do > Intel a favor and kill Alpha off. Then all DEC will make is PC clones... > And that's the end of decent architectures from Maynard! > ------- From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 26 21:30:46 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) References: Message-ID: <34CD54E6.B943D1E5@cnct.com> Brett wrote: > Now - I have to state that I am in some agreement with Sam but I also > disagree. The drug culture predates computers (as discussed here) by > serveral centuries (certainly meets the 10 yr rule 8-) And the drug > culture (as discussed here) is an integral part of the early computer > culture (at least in the U.S.) Anyone who attempts to ignore that is > well - Stupid! For some, computers were the anti-drug program of the > day. For others, the other way around. I have long been of the opinion that the guys who wrote BSD (then SunOS, now Solaris) did _way_ too many drugs at Berkeley. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From wpe at interserv.com Mon Jan 26 21:30:39 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! | Possibly off topic | References: <9801270157.AA04358@forte.com> Message-ID: <34CD54DE.DE36E796@interserv.com> $ SET DISCLAIMER/MAX While in the shower, this AM, I heard the newscaster on WBZ breech the story, which ( as a "downsized" ex DECcie, we always heard the rumor that AT&T was gonna' buy it.... damn near knocked me over), and the remark (IIRR) was something to the effect of (not a direct quote follows, so any lawyer types, back off..): "Compaq has some of the best marketing, but not the best technology, Digital has the worlds best technology, but has always had problems selling it". Apologies if this is "off topic"... IMHO, I hope this "merger" helps, rather than hurts, the DEC product line. Will From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 21:51:36 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) References: Message-ID: <34CD59C8.5224@konnections.com> I have almost all the IBM UCSD-P system disks. I thought it was junque as none would run on any system I had. Until I got a real pc and viola, it booted nicely. I just don't know what to do with it.... -Mike Sam Ismail wrote: > ANYHOW.... > > I've been picking up a lot of great books lately in thrift stores. I > found a couple different volumes on the UCSD Pascal P-code system. I got > the IBM Options and Adaptors Technical Reference Volume 3 (I believe I > have Vols. 1&2 at home), ------------------------------------------------ > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 21:54:25 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer References: <3.0.16.19980126114148.3b872194@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <34CD5A71.4D27@konnections.com> But COMPAQ's was first.... Anyone remember the one on display in the Seattle ferry terminal? Just there in that display, man I had to have one. Finally got one about 10 years later for 50 bucks.... the power supply was shot and a replacement, then, was about 250. Finally junqued it... -Mike Uncle Roger wrote: > > >512K). [Hey Roger, it's got a handle!] I was also able to find the > > Yep, it was (kinda) a clone of the Compaq (which was, of course, and IBM > PC clone...) > > >QUESTION: Does anyone know how many of these were produced? > > According to Haddock: "Was in production by 1984, and was withdrawn on > April 2, 1986. Not many of these machines were made." > > Also: "This portable had eight expansion slots and used an XT motherboard." > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 22:03:48 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) References: Message-ID: <34CD5CA4.371D@konnections.com> Brett wrote: > > > On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > > > > > The whole point is lists and newsgroups is that the majority are >>>>pertinent > > > and one shouldn't have to sort through the impertinent. > > > > > > All of our email addresses are posted, if you want to have long discussions > > > as a group there's no reason you can't do it off line... Oh, I think there's a period where the discussions are built up. Where one, two or three people are doing all the posting. Usually one of the group takes it offline and that's where it goes, but sometimes, the initiated or, to be nice, the indifferent, keep posting to the group. This is the same as if you were working a deal or getting some info just for yourself. It's just ettiquette (I really don't know how it's spelled). You don't have to follow it, and most people let it go, but after one or two complaints you should let it go. Usually one or two complaints means there's 10 or 12 in the wings. And, you have to admit, those were getting out of hand.... -Mike > First - for Mike - And how do we find out if any one wishes to discuss > this on-line or off-line??? > > BC From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jan 26 21:46:37 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: <7c5c4834.34cd58a0@aol.com> part of my new additions last week was a bunch of old mac stuff. i finally got one of the 400k drives, but its having eject problems. the mechanism was stuck so now im able to get a disk in, but when i call it to eject, the motor turns, the disk lifts up to the slot, but wont pop out, then the mechanism goes back down in position to read the disk. it does the same thing when i use a paper clip; it will go up, the disk will stay in, then it goes back down into read position. amazingly, the drive works fine otherwise. i dont quite understand the mechanicals of it, anyone have ideas? david From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 22:17:26 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Tim Co. Message-ID: <34CD5FD6.6E6@konnections.com> www.timco-computers.com Wow, Great prices. Looks like they have an awful lot of worthless junque for people who regularly crave such things. Been looking for a MAC board for my 2page display, Guess I know where to get one... Thanks for the ref.. -Mike From red at bears.org Mon Jan 26 22:15:37 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <7c5c4834.34cd58a0@aol.com> Message-ID: The grease on the eject rails hardens and causes this behaviour. You -can- get it out with the paper clip if it moves at all, but you have to push hard. Anyway, dismantle the mac, pull the drive, and use a light petroleum distillate (I used trumpet valve oil on a q-tip) to dissolve the grease and get the mechanism working smoothly again. I had to really pull the two drives I did this to apart to get at all the parts, but it all worked out well in the end. Mind those stupid e-clips that like to spring off into the aether, though. ok r. -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 22:25:31 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. References: <7c5c4834.34cd58a0@aol.com> Message-ID: <34CD61BB.6736@konnections.com> Super: I had the EXACT same problem on one I picked up. The external 400 was sticky. I was going to pull it and replace it with another, but when I took off the case and played with it, I found out that the lubricant had begun to age and fall apart. I cleaned it up and it began to work okay. The disc still reads, correct. I think you can get it going. I also found that in different positions it worked better than when it was upright.... -Mike SUPRDAVE wrote: > > part of my new additions last week was a bunch of old mac stuff. i finally got > one of the 400k drives, but its having eject problems. the mechanism was stuck > so now im able to get a disk in, but when i call it to eject, the motor turns, > the disk lifts up to the slot, but wont pop out, then the mechanism goes back > down in position to read the disk. it does the same thing when i use a paper > clip; it will go up, the disk will stay in, then it goes back down into read > position. amazingly, the drive works fine otherwise. i dont quite understand > the mechanicals of it, anyone have ideas? > > david From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 26 22:04:14 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook References: Message-ID: <34CD5CBE.99674CB7@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80 Applications Software > Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't > realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book > is pretty big. The first couple of editions were a bit slender (vendors were in a state of shock from Tandy finally allowing mention of third-party products at all -- that's why Tandy didn't advertise in 80-Micro for at least the first 2-3 years it was published), but from about the third edition on that sucker got huge. It was discontinued after Tandy got into the 100% compatible business -- just too much PC software out there to list and keep the book portable. That's when they started the Express Order program allowing Tandy customers to order selected third-party software through the stores. A remnant of that still exists incorporated into the special order system now in the stores that offers third-party products in many categories, as well as some old software for the Color Computer, the Model 16, the Model 4 etc. that are originally Tandy products. (Now that I think about it, the Express Order program [900-series catalog numbers] started at least a year or two before the Tandy 1200 etc., mostly for specialized applications that Tandy was not prepared to acquire the expertise to support -- things like auto parts inventory systems, medical billing systems, etc. Much of that was for Xenix.) -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 26 22:36:26 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980126220105.6e5fdc48@intellistar.net> References: <34cd4b0f.22936680@mail.swbell.net> <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > BTW has anyone ever seen someone use the cassette port? I supported >several hundred early PC user's and never even heard of anyone using the >cassette port. Well, just off the top of my head, the original IBM PC came with two 5 1/4" floppy drives. That tells me you'd have to be crazy to even attempt using the cassette interface. Either that or have some special purpose application (don't even want to imagine what). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 26 22:42:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Also, what was the first programming language (I mean not binary or >assembly)? Off the top of my head COBOL (COmmon Business Oriented Language), followed shortly thereafter by FORTRAN (FORmula TRANslation). One was for Business the other for Science, I'll leave it up to you to decide which was which :^) This of course assumes you don't consider a box of short lenghts of wire a language. >Another thing: CP/M was run on just about everything, usually with >about 64K ram. How is it that MS-DOS blew up to about 384K? What >did they put in there? Face it Billy boy is an incompetent thief, and a strong believer in code bloat. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 26 17:46:22 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <7c5c4834.34cd58a0@aol.com> Message-ID: <199801270440.XAA18903@mail.cgocable.net> > part of my new additions last week was a bunch of old mac stuff. i finally got > one of the 400k drives, but its having eject problems. the mechanism was stuck > so now im able to get a disk in, but when i call it to eject, the motor turns, > the disk lifts up to the slot, but wont pop out, then the mechanism goes back > down in position to read the disk. it does the same thing when i use a paper > clip; it will go up, the disk will stay in, then it goes back down into read > position. amazingly, the drive works fine otherwise. i dont quite understand > the mechanicals of it, anyone have ideas? > > david This is common problem with any machines that factory-grease or oil gave up it's ghost. With cleaning fluids first, please, to wash out those old lube and dirt collected during lifetime then relube it with proper types that will not go bad. Strangely, these old grease looked the same and low quality as in lamp turn-switches assemblies, many vcrs, old tape players that I repaired. Brownish-amber colored kind. Lubes types: WD40 and any 2 in 1 oils are N.G. Lithium grease (used same way in vcr's) is great lube. The mac floppy drives ejector/rail mechanicals and the die-cast base of heads, spindle /w circuit board unit seperates after undoing few E-clips and (screws?) also maybe needs to replace the worn eject motor. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jan 26 22:39:49 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-26 23:36:11 EST, you write: << The grease on the eject rails hardens and causes this behaviour. You -can- get it out with the paper clip if it moves at all, but you have to push hard. >> turns out that's exactly what it was! thankfully the drive mechanism separates from the rest of the drive with screws. i had some head and disk cleaner (alcohol) in a spray can, so i just sprayed it on the parts and worked them back and forth until they were loose. i've no grease, but at least its working just fine now. david. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 26 17:52:38 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980126220105.6e5fdc48@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801270447.XAA20098@mail.cgocable.net> Snip! > Well, just off the top of my head, the original IBM PC came > with two 5 1/4" > floppy drives. That tells me you'd have to be crazy to even attempt using > the cassette interface. Either that or have some special purpose > application (don't even want to imagine what). > > Zane > AGain, off my head. :) To develop on this topic, actually, IBM offered both or three options: on original first PC: one is has no floppy relying on basic ROM for anything and tape port, two is has one drive and number three has both. The orignals were lower density like 320k each at first but quickly gone after XT came out with standard 360k drive or two, or floppy and 10mb HD. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 22:54:23 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook References: <34CD5CBE.99674CB7@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34CD687F.282E@konnections.com> This reminds me, there was supposed to be a Turbo Pascal 3 for Xenix from Borland, I saw the add in TP3 for Dos. Anyone know where I can get a copy of this and Turbo Prolog for anything? Need the prolog book as well, if you can. Boy did I make a mistake when I decided on Pascal over Prolog... Mike Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Let's see...I also got the Radio Shack TRS-80 Applications Software > > Sourcebook. Now, I know that Ward probably knows this, but I didn't > > realize just how many programs were available for the TRS-80. This book > > is pretty big. > > The first couple of editions were a bit slender (vendors were in a > state of shock from Tandy finally allowing mention of third-party > products at all -- that's why Tandy didn't advertise in 80-Micro for > at least the first 2-3 years it was published), but from about the > third edition on that sucker got huge. It was discontinued after > Tandy got into the 100% compatible business -- just too much PC > software out there to list and keep the book portable. That's when > they started the Express Order program allowing Tandy customers to > order selected third-party software through the stores. A remnant > of that still exists incorporated into the special order system now > in the stores that offers third-party products in many categories, > as well as some old software for the Color Computer, the Model 16, > the Model 4 etc. that are originally Tandy products. > > (Now that I think about it, the Express Order program [900-series > catalog numbers] started at least a year or two before the Tandy > 1200 etc., mostly for specialized applications that Tandy was not > prepared to acquire the expertise to support -- things like auto > parts inventory systems, medical billing systems, etc. Much of > that was for Xenix.) > -- > Ward Griffiths > Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? > WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 22:57:00 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: Message-ID: <34CD691C.AEE@konnections.com> First ever? I believe was ForTran. Which was just that formula translation from math formulae, i.e. trajectories, over to ML. But I guess there were probably many local tranlators and interpreters for developed locally. It was just that ForTran was a Navy thing.. -Mike Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >Also, what was the first programming language (I mean not binary or > >assembly)? > > Off the top of my head COBOL (COmmon Business Oriented Language), followed > shortly thereafter by FORTRAN (FORmula TRANslation). One was for Business > the other for Science, I'll leave it up to you to decide which was which :^) > > This of course assumes you don't consider a box of short lenghts of wire a > language. > > >Another thing: CP/M was run on just about everything, usually with > >about 64K ram. How is it that MS-DOS blew up to about 384K? What > >did they put in there? > > Face it Billy boy is an incompetent thief, and a strong believer in code bloat. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From mallison at konnections.com Mon Jan 26 22:58:18 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. References: Message-ID: <34CD696A.7574@konnections.com> Yeah! SUPRDAVE wrote: > turns out that's exactly what it was! > just fine now. > > david. From agammuto at konics.com Mon Jan 26 23:00:27 1998 From: agammuto at konics.com (Andrew Gammuto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: <00b201bd2ae0$7c50e880$62008fa8@osmoid> There's a lever/spring mechanism that shoves the floppy out when the disk "carriage" is up and aligned with the slot in the case. When you put in a disk, it extends the spring, the lever latches, and a microswitch activates the motor that draws the carriage down. I expect that either the spring is broke or the lever connected to it is bent. The previous owner probably shoved in a floppy upside down or backwards and had to wrench it out using brute force. Dont laugh. I know someone who repairs machines for a living with GE (they do repair for Circuit City and others), and he once found a slice of american cheese in a floppy drive (guess it was a 5-1/4 inch unit). Coins inside the drives and case are also common sources of PC/Mac repairs. Kids- you gotta love 'em. Anyway- the mechanism would go back down after failing to eject. The switch contacts are still closed, and that's what it's designed to do - keep running the motor. You might be able to fix it with a pair of small needlenose pliers if the spring is not broke. You will have to remove the drive to do this. Be careful with that paper clip! You could hose up the head, or send a minute electrical charge through your body that could affect your ability to reproduce in the future. Unless you are really good with working on tiny mechanical parts, save yourself the headache and replace the drive. -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 11:16 PM Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. >part of my new additions last week was a bunch of old mac stuff. i finally got >one of the 400k drives, but its having eject problems. the mechanism was stuck >so now im able to get a disk in, but when i call it to eject, the motor turns, >the disk lifts up to the slot, but wont pop out, then the mechanism goes back >down in position to read the disk. it does the same thing when i use a paper >clip; it will go up, the disk will stay in, then it goes back down into read >position. amazingly, the drive works fine otherwise. i dont quite understand >the mechanicals of it, anyone have ideas? > >david > From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 26 23:01:13 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Timco. In-Reply-To: <34CD5FD6.6E6@konnections.com> References: <34CD5FD6.6E6@konnections.com> Message-ID: <34ce69b5.30782606@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:17:26 -0700, you said: >www.timco-computers.com > >Wow, > >Great prices. Looks like they have an awful lot of worthless junque for >people who regularly crave such things. Been looking for a MAC board >for my 2page display, Guess I know where to get one... I have purchased from Timco a couple of times; he's slow to ship but okay to deal with. I guess that's an endorsement. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Jan 26 23:03:53 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: References: <34cd4b0f.22936680@mail.swbell.net> <19980127022939.24928.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <34cf6a28.30897399@mail.swbell.net> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:36:26 -0800, you said: >> BTW has anyone ever seen someone use the cassette port? I supported >>several hundred early PC user's and never even heard of anyone using the >>cassette port. > >Well, just off the top of my head, the original IBM PC came with two 5 1/4" >floppy drives. That tells me you'd have to be crazy to even attempt using >the cassette interface. Either that or have some special purpose >application (don't even want to imagine what). No, the drives were optional. DOS was sold separately. I've had PC's with the cassette connector but never seen anything connect to it. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From agammuto at konics.com Mon Jan 26 23:06:02 1998 From: agammuto at konics.com (Andrew Gammuto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: <00bd01bd2ae1$443bf470$62008fa8@osmoid> I stand corrected. A dab of white grease will do ya. Vaseline works in a pinch. No off topic or lewd comments on this please.... -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 11:54 PM Subject: Re: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. >In a message dated 98-01-26 23:36:11 EST, you write: > ><< The grease on the eject rails hardens and causes this behaviour. You -can- > get it out with the paper clip if it moves at all, but you have to push > hard. >> > > >turns out that's exactly what it was! thankfully the drive mechanism separates >from the rest of the drive with screws. i had some head and disk cleaner >(alcohol) in a spray can, so i just sprayed it on the parts and worked them >back and forth until they were loose. i've no grease, but at least its working >just fine now. > >david. > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 26 23:08:52 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <34CD691C.AEE@konnections.com> References: Message-ID: >First ever? I believe was ForTran. Which was just that formula >translation from math formulae, i.e. trajectories, over to ML. > >But I guess there were probably many local tranlators and interpreters >for developed locally. It was just that ForTran was a Navy thing.. Hmmm, I was thinking it was COBOL that Admiral Hopper had helped to develop. What can I say, it's been a few years since I've looked at the Navy manuals that would tell. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From agammuto at konics.com Mon Jan 26 23:14:04 1998 From: agammuto at konics.com (Andrew Gammuto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <00ca01bd2ae2$634e1900$62008fa8@osmoid> I never saw anybody use the cassette port for practical purposes. In fact, I never saw a cassette drive from IBM. Good trivia question. Has anybody ever seen one? I do remember reading something years ago about hobbyists using the cassette port for plugging in wierd hardware hacks. The original PC came with Cassette Basic. As I recall, defaulted to that if you had no DOS boot disk. GWBasic and BasicA had to be loaded off the DOS disk. -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 11:45 PM Subject: Re: Development, round II >> BTW has anyone ever seen someone use the cassette port? I supported >>several hundred early PC user's and never even heard of anyone using the >>cassette port. > >Well, just off the top of my head, the original IBM PC came with two 5 1/4" >floppy drives. That tells me you'd have to be crazy to even attempt using >the cassette interface. Either that or have some special purpose >application (don't even want to imagine what). > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Mon Jan 26 22:39:35 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <7c5c4834.34cd58a0@aol.com> Message-ID: >part of my new additions last week was a bunch of old mac stuff. i finally got >one of the 400k drives, but its having eject problems. the mechanism was stuck >so now im able to get a disk in, but when i call it to eject, the motor turns, >the disk lifts up to the slot, but wont pop out, then the mechanism goes back >down in position to read the disk. it does the same thing when i use a paper >clip; it will go up, the disk will stay in, then it goes back down into read >position. amazingly, the drive works fine otherwise. i dont quite understand >the mechanicals of it, anyone have ideas? I've run into several drives with that problem. Clean out the eject mechanism(the moving metal parts on the left side, maybe the right side too I don't remember) with something(what are they called? q-tips? the little cardboard sticks with cotton on the end), and then spray a LITTLE bit of WD-40 or household oil along the eject mechanism. I use WD-40 because I usually have it sitting around. Make sure you don't get it on the head or soak it too much... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jan 26 23:19:56 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Timco. Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980127001859.006d3b64@netpath.net> At 05:01 AM 1/27/98 GMT, you wrote: >I have purchased from Timco a couple of times; he's slow to ship >but okay to deal with. I guess that's an endorsement. Me and my friend have had a hard time with Timco. He says he will hold a product until payment gets there, but then he ends up selling a laptop to someone else that he was supposedly holding for me for one week. I eventually got a refund, but my friend had the same luck with him, only he just got a refund for the cost of the item, not shipping. Buyer beware. Maybe we just had a run of badluck with the guy. I'm not condemning him for two mediocre deals, just telling it how it is. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Jan 26 18:25:53 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <00b201bd2ae0$7c50e880$62008fa8@osmoid> Message-ID: <199801270520.AAA12029@mail.cgocable.net> Big CHOMP! >... You could hose up the head, or send a minute > electrical charge through your body that could affect your ability to > reproduce in the future. Unless you are really good with working on tiny > mechanical parts, save yourself the headache and replace the drive. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ To vent abit... This reponses is typical of tech-support droid who do not wants anyone to mess with internal computer parts without giving any tips or solution besides telling them off to "authorized sites". Compaq is pretty bad especially when I own years out of date equipment and needs trival info on two resistors to fix a SLT power brick, I'm still have not gotten this information yet from anything else. :( Without fixing that, I can't sell the SLT 286 to others without losing that only different type working brick cuz I have SLT 386s/20 also. @&#! No fun to listen this especially when if that drive is no longer in production and *is* nonstandard. All we only do want some info and real techies are far fewer and far between common guys with stuff that can use support help so there should not have a fear of losing $ to those few techies. I really appreciate if some did released this design to private makers to keep making older non standad floppy drives for older machines. That goes double to: any laptop drives (oh how godawful different they're are!), Mac drives (Apple destroys their return broken parts when traded in for credits from their authorized service support places, thus drives up the cost becomes harder to get by the minute), and many other different drives. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jan 26 23:13:40 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: well, you could get your 5150 in several different flavours: one, two or no floppy drives. i actually saw a pc with no floppies, just had plastic cover plates so your only choice of saving data would be like an early apple, just cassette. i never knew of anyone actually doing it though. i might ask some of the old ibmers when i go back to work. david In a message dated 98-01-27 00:05:46 EST, you write: << > BTW has anyone ever seen someone use the cassette port? I supported >several hundred early PC user's and never even heard of anyone using the >cassette port. Well, just off the top of my head, the original IBM PC came with two 5 1/4" floppy drives. That tells me you'd have to be crazy to even attempt using the cassette interface. Either that or have some special purpose application (don't even want to imagine what). >> From agammuto at konics.com Tue Jan 27 00:01:10 1998 From: agammuto at konics.com (Andrew Gammuto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:28 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: <014f01bd2ae8$f7bb7a00$62008fa8@osmoid> Jason- You missed my point and (obviously) poor attempt at a little humor. I'm not connected with any authorized repair institution. I'm not sure that's what you were implying, but it kind of sounded like that. All I was saying was that if the mechanical parts were bent up or broke, it would be sensible to replace it. A working 400k spare drive for a Mac would be cheap and relatvely easy to find. Turns out it was only petrified grease. Great. Now everybody has learned somethng. I into classic machines as a hobby and don't try to make a living out of it. I guess that if I did, I'd be more inclined to avoid buying parts and repairing everything. I fix everything I can, and replace what I can't. That's the reason that I subscribe to this list - to save a few bucks, learn from other people, and swap, buy, or sell hardware to and from other collectors. I assume that's why most of us are here. Big CHOMP! >... You could hose up the head, or send a minute > electrical charge through your body that could affect your ability to > reproduce in the future. Unless you are really good with working on tiny > mechanical parts, save yourself the headache and replace the drive. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ To vent abit... This reponses is typical of tech-support droid who do not wants anyone to mess with internal computer parts without giving any tips or solution besides telling them off to "authorized sites". Compaq is pretty bad especially when I own years out of date equipment and needs trival info on two resistors to fix a SLT power brick, I'm still have not gotten this information yet from anything else. Without fixing that, I can't sell the SLT 286 to others without losing that only different type working brick cuz I have SLT 386s/20 also. @&#! No fun to listen this especially when if that drive is no longer in production and *is* nonstandard. All we only do want some info and real techies are far fewer and far between common guys with stuff that can use support help so there should not have a fear of losing $ to those few techies. I really appreciate if some did released this design to private makers to keep making older non standad floppy drives for older machines. That goes double to: any laptop drives (oh how godawful different they're are!), Mac drives (Apple destroys their return broken parts when traded in for credits from their authorized service support places, thus drives up the cost becomes harder to get by the minute), and many other different drives. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 27 00:21:12 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Timco. In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980127001859.006d3b64@netpath.net> Message-ID: >At 05:01 AM 1/27/98 GMT, you wrote: > >>I have purchased from Timco a couple of times; he's slow to ship >>but okay to deal with. I guess that's an endorsement. > >Me and my friend have had a hard time with Timco. He says he will hold a >product until payment gets there, but then he ends up selling a laptop to >someone else that he was supposedly holding for me for one week. I >eventually got a refund, but my friend had the same luck with him, only he >just got a refund for the cost of the item, not shipping. > >Buyer beware. Maybe we just had a run of badluck with the guy. I'm not >condemning him for two mediocre deals, just telling it how it is. > > >-John Higginbotham- >-limbo.netpath.net- Sounds like my luck. I bought three items from him, a 10Base2 Nubus card, what I understood to be a SE/30 Network Card, and a "Compatible Systems Etherwrite" (a box for connecting a Appletalk printer to a Ethernet network). The Nubus card was 10BaseT, the SE/30 device turned out to be an external SCSI-to-Ethernet box (actually brand new in shrink wrap and very nice), and the "Compatible Systems Etherwrite" didn't include the driver disk as it had been ripped out of some installation. Anyone know where I can get the drivers (the website has driver updates that expect you to have the original disk). I'd also say buyer beware. I might do business with him again, but I doubt it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From pvhp at forte.com Tue Jan 27 00:24:14 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801270624.AA17889@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Development, round II Max Eskin wrote: >I just picked up a book on Macintosh Think C (MS Press, 50c, I didn't >bother getting Macsbug and others, also 50c each). For one thing, does >anyone have an extra/unvalued license copy of THINK C, version 2.1-5.0? >Also, what was the first programming language (I mean not binary or >assembly)? According to Goldstine in "The Computer: from Pascal to von Neumann" the first working modern stored program was a sorting routine that John von Neumann wrote in roughly 1943 - and had working on the ENIAC/EDVAC by 1946/47, but it was in machine code (binary). An Assembler was available on the Princeton U/Institute for Advanced Study EDSAC by the Fall of 1949. Herman Goldstine and John von Neumann wrote a programming manual for it by 1951. Short-code (which would by today's standards be classified as a type of assembler) was available for UNIVAC machines by October 1952 thanks to Logan, Schmit, and Tonik. Heinz Rutishauser of the ETH in Zurich described the world's first compiler in a preprint issued by ETH in 1952 (based in part on work that Konrad Zuse had published in 1948/49). Grace Hopper (who had started out working with H. Aiken at Harvard) developed A0 then A1 and published results in the ACM Proceedings by 1952. By 1955 she released A2 - which was popular on UNIVAC computers. She went on the become instrumental in the development of COBOL. FLOW-MATIC and MATH-MATIC were also available on Sperry computers in the early(?) fifties. Remington Rand then developed a language called UNICODE by 1957/58 for use on UNIVAC 1103A and 1105 machines. John Backus (et al.) at IBM developed: 1] Speedcoding in 1953 for the 701 2] FORTRAN starting in 1954 (which took 18 person years to develop, and was released as Fortran I in 1956/57) 3] served on the international committee that developed Algol (starting in 1959 but continuing through the 60s). >Another thing: CP/M was run on just about everything, usually with >about 64K ram. How is it that MS-DOS blew up to about 384K? What >did they put in there? A DOS kernel is distinct from a DOS installation. The DOS kernel is tiny even for fairly recent versions. On a Dell boot disk for MS-DOS (I think 6.22 and thus not classic) I see the following file sizes: IO.SYS 40,774 MSDOS.SYS 38,138 COMMAND.COM 54,645 and on a bootable PC-DOS 7.0 (again not classic) partition I have: IBMIO.COM 40,614 IBMDOS.COM 37,066 COMMAND.COM 52,956 and in either case the configuartion files AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS are each less than 1 kB. The big user interface difference between these and CP/M is the full hierarchical file system. Of course they also come with loads of bloatware - but some of that is quite fun. e.g. PC-DOS can be optionally installed with Rexx and I chose that option. I also have a couple of different DPMI's available including the one for DJGPP. Peter Prymmer From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 27 00:54:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook References: <34CD5CBE.99674CB7@cnct.com> <34CD687F.282E@konnections.com> Message-ID: <34CD84A4.DD1E7963@cnct.com> Mike Allison wrote: > > This reminds me, there was supposed to be a Turbo Pascal 3 for Xenix > from Borland, I saw the add in TP3 for Dos. Anyone know where I can get > a copy of this and Turbo Prolog for anything? Need the prolog book as > well, if you can. I recall the announcement for the Borland product, never saw an actual copy. It was for SCO Xenix (x86), not Tandy Xenix (68k). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jan 27 00:53:34 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Okimate Interfaces, Interact One References: <199801260802.AAA10371@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34CD846E.5E92@goldrush.com> From: "Cliff Gregory" Subject: Re: Okimate 10 > The Okimate 10 uses a serial connection designed for computers without a > parallel port, such as the Commodore. There are interface cables made to > allow such a computer to communicate to a printer with a standard centronics > connector.... [snip] The Okimate Printers employed a modular interface called a "plug-n-play module, usually you would find them being Centronics parallel or Commodore Serial (I am sure there was an Atari SIO too, but I can't be certain...) As far as hooking printers to the IBM, it takes a parallel port adapter and special printer driver software.... Given the general speed of the Commodore serial port I would not bother. Besides, color dot matrix printers can be had for under $50 at many thrift shops. P.S. The Okimate is a real hog when it comes to color, expect about only 8 full color pages from a color ribbon, period. The ribbons are thermal transfer and are one-shot. 00101011110100100100011110100111010101010011100100110101000101001110011010011 From: Sam Ismail Subject: Re: Interact Model One >On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Scott Ware wrote: >> I recently acquired an Interact Model One computer. It's a relatively >> small unit with calculator-style keys and a built in cassette deck for >> data storage. Inside, there is an 8080 CPU and 16 Kbytes of RAM. The >> latest date codes on the components place its manufacture in early 1978. > > Scott, I've got one of these systems, and I've only seen two others: one > owned by Doug Coward and another that (I THINK) Marvin Johnson bought at > VCF 1.0.[snip!] At a very reasonable price too I might add, I was tempted to get it myself... > These are not very common machines. I think they were used as training > computers for those "Become a Computer Technician" ads you see in computer > magazines for those cheezy tech schools. I remember seeing Protecto Enterprizes (and possibly COMB too) selling them they referred to them as "16K color computers." This was before Protecto started selling VIC-20s and B-128s... -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jan 26 21:36:41 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! Message-ID: <01bd2ad4$c859bec0$LocalHost@hotze> Well, I found out that Atari is kicking. Has anyone heard about the game "Primal Rage" It's copywrighted to Atari Games. Tim D. Hotze PS-It's my opinion that OS/2 (there making a new version) and DEC will be around, in one form or another, for quite awhile. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Prymmer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 4:59 AM Subject: Re: DEC Sold to Compaq! >classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Subj: Re: DEC Sold to Compaq! > >Richard A. Cini wrote: > >>Well, you could see it coming. Poor financial performance (and hence, weak >>stock price) over the last few years. Weak products. Then, DEC sells-out the >>Crown Jewels (its Alpha procesor) to Intel. >> >> After listening to an interview with Eckhard Pfeiffer of Compaq, they >>paid $9.6 billion for DEC's customer list, not its products. He mentions >>nothing about DEC's products. > >According to the scoop on DEC web pages and in comp.os.vms and various VMS >mailing list he said: > > We are committed to...investing in Digital's strategic assets, particularly > its worldwide service organization, as well as its 64-bit leadership with Alpha > microprocessors, OpenVMS, Digital UNIX and Windows NT enterprise systems, > open storage, and software products," Eckhard Pfeiffer, president and chief > executive officer of Compaq, said in a statement. > >And all the VMS geeks are tickled pink that he mentioned VMS first on the list >of OSes and point out that DEC CEO Bob Palmer hasn't been known to do that. > >> It's a shame...but it seems to me that DEC should have seen it coming. >>Death comes to the last of the old-line computer companies. > >Well IBM is still alive and kicking (rumour is that the whole OS/2 shop has >been fired/re-assigned/real-estate liqidated but AS/400 minis and mainframes >are making a strong comeback). I Don't know much about Unisys though... > >Peter Prymmer > > > From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sun Jan 25 18:02:04 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Wanted Bernoulli drive Message-ID: <199801271334.FAA03481@mx3.u.washington.edu> I have the drivers for bernoullis (don't know what kind, but they came off an XT). manney@nwohio.com ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: Re: Wanted Bernoulli drive > Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 5:05 PM > > I have two of these drives, the kind that uses the BIG disks, but i have not > the controller for it. anyone have one for purchasing? I also have ~70 disks > and even an unused cleaning kit for it. > > david From cgregory at lrbcg.com Tue Jan 27 07:36:04 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <00aa01bd2b30$e13df300$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> I've never seen an IBM cassette drive; fact is I've never seen a 5150 without at least one disk drive. The 5150 does boot to cassette BASIC if no boot disk is present. Now my curiousity is piqued. I'm going to have to find a cassette player and interface cable somewhere. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 1:14 AM Subject: Re: Development, round II > >I never saw anybody use the cassette port for practical purposes. In fact, I >never saw a cassette drive from IBM. Good trivia question. Has anybody ever >seen one? I do remember reading something years ago about hobbyists using >the cassette port for plugging in wierd hardware hacks. > >The original PC came with Cassette Basic. As I recall, defaulted to that if >you had no DOS boot disk. GWBasic and BasicA had to be loaded off the DOS >disk. > From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Tue Jan 27 09:32:23 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Found on Usenet... Message-ID: <34d0fdce.550769344@mail.wizards.net> Another fellow with more DEC'ish stuff available. Please reply directly to the original author if interested. -=-=- -=-=- Path: Supernews70!Supernews60!supernews.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!207.12.55.133.MISMATCH!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.176.80.103!news.smart.net!smarty.smart.net!not-for-mail From: yven@smart.net (James J. Yven) Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro Subject: FS:VR201 monitor $25 Date: 27 Jan 1998 13:19:18 GMT Organization: Smartnet Internet Services, LLC of Laurel, Maryland Lines: 3 Message-ID: <6akmsm$5ch$2@news.smart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: smarty.smart.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960817] Xref: Supernews70 comp.sys.dec.micro:8215 DEC VR201 monitor, in great shape, $25 also various Rainbow software and hardware available. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin2 {at} wiz d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov Tue Jan 27 09:55:11 1998 From: ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <00ca01bd2ae2$634e1900$62008fa8@osmoid> Message-ID: <34CE035F.458@washington.cospo.osis.gov> I have a Tandy, or some kind of data cassette recorder. Never use it for data, but it's an excellent voice recorder and player. -Mike Andrew Gammuto wrote: > > I never saw anybody use the cassette port for practical purposes. In fact, I > never saw a cassette drive from IBM. Good trivia question. Has anybody ever > seen one? I do remember reading something years ago about hobbyists using > the cassette port for plugging in wierd hardware hacks. > > The original PC came with Cassette Basic. As I recall, defaulted to that if > you had no DOS boot disk. GWBasic and BasicA had to be loaded off the DOS > disk. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: Development, round II > > >> BTW has anyone ever seen someone use the cassette port? I supported > >>several hundred early PC user's and never even heard of anyone using the > >>cassette port. > > > >Well, just off the top of my head, the original IBM PC came with two 5 1/4" > >floppy drives. That tells me you'd have to be crazy to even attempt using > >the cassette interface. Either that or have some special purpose > >application (don't even want to imagine what). > > > > Zane > > > > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > > > > From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jan 27 08:23:29 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <00bd01bd2ae1$443bf470$62008fa8@osmoid> Message-ID: <199801271540.JAA22373@onyx.southwind.net> > I stand corrected. A dab of white grease will do ya. Vaseline works in a > pinch. > > No off topic or lewd comments on this please.... > I've freed sticky FD Mechanisms with a teflon spray. It gets everywhere, but it's inert, dosent decompose, and works really good on sliding surfaces. Jeff From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jan 27 10:04:04 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9800278859.AA885946153@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Peter Prymmer wrote: > bloatware - but some of that is quite fun. e.g. PC-DOS can be optionally > installed with Rexx and I chose that option. I also have a couple of > different DPMI's available including the one for DJGPP. REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a Compaq 386? An IBM AT? Philip. From ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov Tue Jan 27 10:04:17 1998 From: ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook References: <34CD5CBE.99674CB7@cnct.com> <34CD687F.282E@konnections.com> <34CD84A4.DD1E7963@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34CE0581.1389@washington.cospo.osis.gov> Yeah, Xenix TP3 for Xenix/86 and Xenix/AT. That's what I was looking for. I called SCO back then and I think even Borland. No one knew if the product ever even shipped. -Mike Allison Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > I recall the announcement for the Borland product, never saw an actual > copy. It was for SCO Xenix (x86), not Tandy Xenix (68k). > -- > Ward Griffiths > Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? > WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 27 11:00:07 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <909349e7.34ce1299@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-27 11:09:28 EST, you write: << REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a Compaq 386? An IBM AT? >> any machine that can run pcdos can have rexx installed as part of the dos upgrade. according to my dos 7 manual, any machine xt and above with 512k or greater can accomodate it. david (pcdos7 user) From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 11:08:31 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <34CD5A71.4D27@konnections.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > But COMPAQ's was first.... > > Anyone remember the one on display in the Seattle ferry terminal? Just > there in that display, man I had to have one. > > Finally got one about 10 years later for 50 bucks.... the power supply > was shot and a replacement, then, was about 250. Finally junqued it... I picked mine up for around $10 in perfect condition. I also got a nifty nylon travel case with it. They can be usually be found at flea markets (at least where I'm from). Later on, I was with Hans Pufal in a local surplus shop and we happened upon a leather carrying case complete with the Compaq logo. Hans saw it first :( But he needed it to carry all his goodies on the plane back to France. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 11:15:41 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <34CD61BB.6736@konnections.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > I had the EXACT same problem on one I picked up. The external 400 was > sticky. I was going to pull it and replace it with another, but when I > took off the case and played with it, I found out that the lubricant had > begun to age and fall apart. I cleaned it up and it began to work okay. Yeah, I had the same problem. The lubricant around the eject armature (holding the drive with the opening slot facing you and in its normal, horizontal orientation) on the right side gets gummy. I used some Blue Shower and a brush to scrub it all off and it began to eject great, but in the process I did something else to the drive and screwed it up even more (it would constantly try to recalibrate when you turned up the system). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 11:23:33 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Application Software Sourcebook In-Reply-To: <34CD5CBE.99674CB7@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > The first couple of editions were a bit slender (vendors were in a > state of shock from Tandy finally allowing mention of third-party > products at all -- that's why Tandy didn't advertise in 80-Micro for > at least the first 2-3 years it was published), but from about the > third edition on that sucker got huge. It was discontinued after Yeah, I forgot to mention that I have volume III. Remember during the 80s the big claim by Apple was over 10,000 software applications available? And the other manufacturers had similar claims, but Apple marketed this more effectively than the others because I can't remember what other computer makers of the time claimed. So in reality, of the mainstay computer makers at the time, who did have the biggest applications base? Apple, Commodore, Atari, Radio Shack, TI, or IBM? Or is this still a rather subjective topic (I expect this will mostly be the case in the ensuing replies). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 27 11:30:32 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <00aa01bd2b30$e13df300$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: <13327592204.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have a pinout of the casette cable somewhere, in fact I have the book with the schematics and the dump of the ROMs for the IBM PC... I'll have to go dig it out. ------- From pvhp at forte.com Tue Jan 27 11:34:05 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801271734.AA21388@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re[3]: Development, round II Philip Belben wrote: >REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was >something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I >haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a >Compaq 386? An IBM AT? Yes - it is an optional part of an IBM PC-DOS 7 installation. I believe that someone mentioned that that OS will run on any Xt or better PC w/ 512k memory or higher. Of course the other PC OS with great built in support for Rexx is OS/2. I do not know about any ports to Microsoft OSes nor any of the variety of UNIXes available for Intel machines. Nor do I know what relation this (Rexx w/ PC-DOS 7) may bear to the REXX-88 product that you mention - does that run on MS DOS e.g.? Peter Prymmer From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 11:36:44 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC with no floppies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > well, you could get your 5150 in several different flavours: one, two or no > floppy drives. i actually saw a pc with no floppies, just had plastic cover > plates so your only choice of saving data would be like an early apple, just > cassette. i never knew of anyone actually doing it though. i might ask some of > the old ibmers when i go back to work. Wacky. I eat the words of my previous posting. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 11:34:09 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <34cf6a28.30897399@mail.swbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Barry Peterson wrote: > >Well, just off the top of my head, the original IBM PC came with two 5 1/4" > >floppy drives. That tells me you'd have to be crazy to even attempt using > >the cassette interface. Either that or have some special purpose > >application (don't even want to imagine what). > > No, the drives were optional. DOS was sold separately. I've had PC's > with the cassette connector but never seen anything connect to it. Only the original 64K motherboards had the cassette connector. IBM quickly dropped this from the next revision as by this time (1981) most everyone was using floppies anyway, at least in business environments. I doubt I or anyone else will ever see an IBM PC without mass storage of any kind (floppy, hard drive). I've never seen one with anything less than two full height 5.25" floppies. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Tue Jan 27 13:13:15 1998 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! Message-ID: <01ISVFFEOPVM8Y72Z8@AC.GRIN.EDU> > Well, I found out that Atari is kicking. Has anyone heard about the game > "Primal Rage" It's copywrighted to Atari Games. Atari Games is the arcade division of Atari, which is doing just fine (though I think they're part of some MegaArcadeConglomerate these days). The home computer and console divisions of Atari are pretty much gone. -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH Wow, this is global. -Mtn Goats From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Tue Jan 27 13:43:15 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <9800278859.AA885946153@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: >REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was >something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I >haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a >Compaq 386? An IBM AT? You can probably find REXX in a lot of places... There's even a shareware version on Macintosh. And if there's an old IBM programming language on a Mac, it's almost definitley on a lot of other platforms. Did REXX start on the IBM mini/mainframes or is it from somewhere else? Has anyone seen a copy of Cobol for Mac? MicroFocus used to make it, but it seems the Cobol crowd has abondoned Macintosh... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 27 13:56:37 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: References: <9800278859.AA885946153@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980127145637.007df6b0@netpath.net> At 11:43 AM 1/27/98 -0800, you wrote: >Mac, it's almost definitley on a lot of other platforms. Did REXX start on >the IBM mini/mainframes or is it from somewhere else? Has anyone seen a >copy of Cobol for Mac? MicroFocus used to make it, but it seems the Cobol >crowd has abondoned Macintosh... FWIW, A friend of mine had REXX running on his Amiga in '91. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Tue Jan 27 14:17:46 1998 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: FOR JEFF KANEKO In-Reply-To: <2B81A7D77AD@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Oct 20, 97 09:11:53 am Message-ID: <199801272017.PAA02262@maddog.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I am interested, if you still have this. John > > Guys: > > I picked up a Tandy 15Mb disk drive unit at a thrift some months ago, > with the idea that I was going to graft it to some old 8-bit hardware > here. I was going to swap the controller with a different one, > reformat the drive, and so on. > > Anyway, rather than do this, I felt it only just that I offer it here > in case anyone is looking for one of these. It is in a White metal > cabinet, and uses a WD-1000-TB1 controller. It has plugs on the back > so you can chain on more drives. > > I suspect that this is used with upgraded model 3's and probly model > 4's. The on/off switch uses a keylock (I 'aint got the key, though). > I'll let it go to someone who can use it for $5 and shipping. I've > never powered this thing up, so I dunno. . . . > > Jeff > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From cdenham at tgis.co.uk Tue Jan 27 15:34:30 1998 From: cdenham at tgis.co.uk (Christopher Denham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <004701bd2ab9$5ab26900$54987c0a@office1> References: <004701bd2ab9$5ab26900$54987c0a@office1> Message-ID: <34ce4db0.102966@mail.tgis.co.uk> While moving some off my old computers around I wandered which was the heavy est luggable ever made so just for fun I got the bathroom scales out and weighted some off them . Commodore sx64 23 pounds Osbourne One 28 pounds Andromeda Zita D 44 pounds So lets have a fun competition , get those bathroom scales out and find out who made the heavey est luggable . Happy weighing Chris ps Any body got a boot disk for the Andromeda Zita D , I think its CPM based on a Raid its got 5 1/4 disks on it . From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 27 15:37:18 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <34ce4db0.102966@mail.tgis.co.uk> Message-ID: <13327637127.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> My MNicroVAX 2000 counts, it's got a handle! 35 Pounds! (We have a crappy digital scale here, so that's the average of 3 weighs.) ------- From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Jan 27 16:00:16 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <34ce4db0.102966@mail.tgis.co.uk> Message-ID: Can't wait to get home and weigh my old Intel PDS. By the way... I've got an old Commodore SX-64 that seems to have a raster but no working CPU. Was there a common failure mode for these? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Christopher Denham wrote: > While moving some off my old computers around I wandered which was the > heavy est luggable ever made so just for fun I got the bathroom > scales out and weighted some off them . > Commodore sx64 23 pounds > Osbourne One 28 pounds > Andromeda Zita D 44 pounds > > So lets have a fun competition , get those bathroom scales out and > find out who made the heavey est luggable . > > Happy weighing > Chris > > ps > Any body got a boot disk for the Andromeda Zita D , I think its > CPM based on a Raid its got 5 1/4 disks on it . > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jan 27 16:18:57 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB207AE0437@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> That's easy... the IBM 5100 is well over 50 lbs. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: cdenham@tgis.co.uk [SMTP:cdenham@tgis.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 1:35 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Mines heavy er than yours > > While moving some off my old computers around I wandered which was the > heavy est luggable ever made so just for fun I got the bathroom > scales out and weighted some off them . > Commodore sx64 23 pounds > Osbourne One 28 pounds > Andromeda Zita D 44 pounds > > So lets have a fun competition , get those bathroom scales out and > find out who made the heavey est luggable . > > Happy weighing > Chris > > ps > Any body got a boot disk for the Andromeda Zita D , I think its > CPM based on a Raid its got 5 1/4 disks on it . From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 27 16:29:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours References: <004701bd2ab9$5ab26900$54987c0a@office1> <34ce4db0.102966@mail.tgis.co.uk> Message-ID: <34CE5FDF.12629115@cnct.com> Christopher Denham wrote: > > While moving some off my old computers around I wandered which was the > heavy est luggable ever made so just for fun I got the bathroom > scales out and weighted some off them . > Commodore sx64 23 pounds > Osbourne One 28 pounds > Andromeda Zita D 44 pounds I'm not in the running, my TRS-80 4p was born at 26 lbs, my Kaypro 16 isn't much heavier. > So lets have a fun competition , get those bathroom scales out and > find out who made the heavey est luggable . I never heard that Werner Erhard ever carried a luggable. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jan 27 16:49:13 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Monitor woes Message-ID: <19980127224929.20580.qmail@hotmail.com> I just acquired a PS/2 Model 25, the one with an integrated monitor and 8086. The reason it was being thrown away was that while it starts up fine, the MCGA monitor eventually becomes tinted red and blurry. If I turn it off and let it sit for a few minutes, then turn it on, it will work fine again. What is the problem? Can I solve it without the risk of shorting capacitors and blowing myself halfway across the room? My understading is that this machine needs no reference disks, but can I use a hard drive > 20MB? It never mentions it on IBM's site. Lastly, does anyone have any of the original stuff for it, ie software, manuals, etc. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 14:23:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <199801270520.AAA12029@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Jan 27, 98 00:25:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2418 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/13562675/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 16:40:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB207AE0437@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Jan 27, 98 02:18:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 250 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/55332f81/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 27 16:57:42 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: RD53 problem Message-ID: <13327651762.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I'm trying to get NetBSD ona uVAX 2000. I was using the wrong numbers in the disklabel. Now that I've figured that out, the computer has antoher trick for me - I power it on, the RD53 spins up, reaches top speed, and spins down before the CPU checkout finishes. Did I kill a timing track or soemthing? ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 27 16:58:29 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13327651904.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> (Not carrying HP2100A upstrairs) Just carry tha SCALE downstairs! ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 14:10:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980126220105.6e5fdc48@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 26, 98 10:01:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 606 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/fad0e9ab/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Tue Jan 27 17:01:13 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, my HP2100A CPU has a handle on the side... And it's a stagger-job > to move it - I guess it weighs around 100 lbs. I am _NOT_ carrying it > upstairs to weigh it, though. Why not take the scale downstairs, then? ok r. -- r e d @ b e a r s . o r g ============================= [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 14:45:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <00aa01bd2b30$e13df300$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> from "Cliff Gregory" at Jan 27, 98 08:36:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/d78be0dd/attachment.ksh From cgregory at lrbcg.com Tue Jan 27 17:17:53 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Interesting Find Message-ID: <021301bd2b79$de45de80$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> Found an interesting (at least to me) luggable/portable at the local thrift the other day. It's a Sharp PC-7100. Very compact and sharp (no pun) design. About half the size and weight of an old Compaq, with a detatchable keyboard, tiltable LCD screen, 5.25 floppy, 20 meg hard drive. It booted fine from the hard drive (MSDOS 3.2). I haven't taken the time to open it up and look inside, but I ran MSD from a floppy, and it reported the computer to be a Sharp/ERSO, 8088 or 8086 processor, 704k RAM. When I browsed the ROM memory, the result was: aVADEM-SHARP Personal Computer System Firmware Version 3.0B copyright 1985 Vadem Inc. I did a cursory search on the net for more information but came up empty, so if anyone can help with more info or docs for this one, I would appreciate it. BTW, the screen has a blue/purple sort of tint to it. Kind of attractive in a psychodelic sort of way ( oh please, no more drug-related threads ). Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com From cgregory at lrbcg.com Tue Jan 27 17:23:15 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Monitor woes Message-ID: <022501bd2b7a$90020d60$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> I have the manuals somewhere, i.e., not handy. Do you need something looked up? Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 6:53 PM Subject: Monitor woes >Lastly, does anyone have any of the original stuff for it, ie software, >manuals, etc. > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 14:52:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 27, 98 09:34:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 391 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/fe586d74/attachment.ksh From cgregory at lrbcg.com Tue Jan 27 17:29:43 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <023701bd2b7b$73710380$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> That's good to know, Tony. I think I have one or two TRS-80 cables around here somewhere. It would be nice if a Tandy cassette player would also work; I think I have one of those here as well. I've put a couple of feelers out there looking for an IBM variety. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Development, round II >> I've never seen an IBM cassette drive; fact is I've never seen a 5150 >> without at least one disk drive. The 5150 does boot to cassette BASIC if no >> boot disk is present. Now my curiousity is piqued. I'm going to have to >> find a cassette player and interface cable somewhere. > >AFAIK the IBM 5150 PC cassette cable is the same as the cable used to >link a cassette recorder to a TRS-80. That should make it quite easy to >find - I have a couple here (which I need to hang on to). > >It wouldn't be hard to solder one up, well, apart from soldering those >infernal DIN plugs. > >-tony > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jan 27 17:32:52 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > That's easy... the IBM 5100 is well over 50 lbs. > > Well, my HP2100A CPU has a handle on the side... And it's a stagger-job > to move it - I guess it weighs around 100 lbs. Well... the PDP-8/e in the desktop configuration (handle on either side) with a decent set of boards and core hits right beweeen 95-100 lbs. (*big* transformer in that linear power supply) BTW: If I bolt a couple of handles on the top of my 11/780 can it play too? (so it won't feel left out... CPU at about 1150 lbs.) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Tue Jan 27 17:34:12 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB207AE0437@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: >Well, my HP2100A CPU has a handle on the side... And it's a stagger-job >to move it - I guess it weighs around 100 lbs. I am _NOT_ carrying it >upstairs to weigh it, though. Well, if what your looking for is handles, my PS/2 Model 80 weighs about 50lbs or so. Or if you want to go into the wheeled category, my IBM Series/1 weighs several hundred pounds... Not luggable, but it's pushable(barely). -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 27 17:35:12 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13327658590.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> (Handles on an 11/780) Nope, to pe bortable you have to be able to PORT it. (I.E lift it). ------- From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 17:39:44 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, George Rachor wrote: > By the way... I've got an old Commodore SX-64 that seems to have a raster > but no working CPU. Was there a common failure mode for these? Do you get a blue screen? This is usually caused by a bad chip. Fixing a C64 is fairly easy. Without going into a specific troubleshooting discussion, the easiest thing to do is to get a known good C-64 (a dime a dozen at thrift stores around here) that you don't care about sacrificing and begin replacing the socketed chips from the C64 into the SX64 (SX-64 = C-64 in a portable case...internals are the same). Nine times out of ten you'll end up fixing it within the first few swaps. I can't remember which chips to start with and not having a C64 in front of me, I can't tell you, but just start on one end and work your way to the other. I'm sure someone else here can provide more specific information. If this doesn't work then you might suspect a bad RAM chip which you'll usually have to resort to soldering in order to replace. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 14:13:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <199801270440.XAA18903@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Jan 26, 98 11:46:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 946 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/566902b9/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 27 18:23:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. References: Message-ID: <34CE7A7D.CC04C036@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Another mini-flame for service manuals that claim that some part is 'not > field repairable'. Sorry, but _I'll_ decide what _I_ can repair. At the > moment, the only thing I can't rebuild is hard disk HDAs. But I'd much > rather have a service manual that starts 'Take the HDA into a clean room > and undo the cover screws (#1 in fig 4.2), lift off cover' etc than one > which entirely misses out the HDA. Well, those service manuals were originally meant for their _own_ service technicians, and they knew damned well that no way in Hell can an entry-level service droid fix those things in the field. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov Tue Jan 27 18:20:33 1998 From: ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. References: Message-ID: <34CE79D1.29F@washington.cospo.osis.gov> Obviously from the number of (correct) responses you got. We've all pulled this $hit apart enough to overqualify ourselves as field reps. Why would anyone who responds that way be on the list? Do people think these things come in mint condition with software in the shrinks? I wanna meet the man who bought a computer and programs and nothing has ever happened that wasn't a normal feature cited in the manual. What happens when things go wrong? They just take it back for new, I guess... -Mike Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Big CHOMP! > > > > >... You could hose up the head, or send a minute > > > electrical charge through your body that could affect your ability to > > > reproduce in the future. Unless you are really good with working on tiny > > > mechanical parts, save yourself the headache and replace the drive. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > To vent abit... > > > > This reponses is typical of tech-support droid who do not wants > > anyone to mess with internal computer parts without giving any tips > > Well said. I agree 100% > Not only do I _enjoy_ doing repairs, but I am getting fed up with the > number of times I've received replies like : > 'Monochrome monitors are old-fashioned. You can buy a new SVGA colour > monitor for less than the cost of repair' From ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov Tue Jan 27 18:21:40 1998 From: ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours References: Message-ID: <34CE7A14.EDB@washington.cospo.osis.gov> The handle on the HP2100A is in case it falls on someone, a team of people can get it off... -Mike Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > That's easy... the IBM 5100 is well over 50 lbs. > > Well, my HP2100A CPU has a handle on the side... And it's a stagger-job > to move it - I guess it weighs around 100 lbs. I am _NOT_ carrying it > upstairs to weigh it, though. > > > > > Kai > > -tony From ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov Tue Jan 27 18:23:13 1998 From: ma at washington.cospo.osis.gov (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: Message-ID: <34CE7A71.59C9@washington.cospo.osis.gov> Tony Duell wrote: > > Although I might use it a little more seriously sometime. I have a > training board called a Microprofesssor 1/88 that has a machine code > monitor in ROM that can load IBM PC tapes. So that would be one way of > transfering data onto that machine. > > > > > Joe > > -tony I hope the first tape program you write is the floppy loader... -Mike From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 27 18:33:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:29 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: Message-ID: <34CE7CE3.876CF002@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I've never seen an IBM cassette drive; fact is I've never seen a 5150 > > without at least one disk drive. The 5150 does boot to cassette BASIC if no > > boot disk is present. Now my curiousity is piqued. I'm going to have to > > find a cassette player and interface cable somewhere. > > AFAIK the IBM 5150 PC cassette cable is the same as the cable used to > link a cassette recorder to a TRS-80. That should make it quite easy to > find - I have a couple here (which I need to hang on to). > > It wouldn't be hard to solder one up, well, apart from soldering those > infernal DIN plugs. Hey, you Europeans _started_ the DIN plug fashion. I vaguely recall that we sold a few cassette cables to early PC users, and I don't recall them being refunded, so they just might work. I'll never know, the only IBM/Intel cpu I have is an old AT that my fiancee got for free at the Trenton Computer Festival and wants me to use to build a word processor for a friend of hers. (I'll probably keep the thing and use my old workhorse nameless 386 for the job despite my memories of my first Linux installation on the beast from an 18" pile of 5.25" floppies -- or perhaps because of those memories). There is _other_ IBM hardware I _am_ interested in -- I'd sort of like an old RT/PC and I _really_ want an RS/6000 with decent expansion, though the ones I want are definitely too new for this mailing list. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Jan 27 18:33:23 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Sam, Thanks for the suggestions about the portable Commodore. I'll snarf up the next C64 I can find. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com From archive at navix.net Tue Jan 27 20:07:37 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours References: Message-ID: <34CE92E8.88C8C7FF@navix.net> Does anyone have a luggable Commodore SX-64 for sale by chance? I am _really_ looking for one. Thanks, CORD COSLOR Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, George Rachor wrote: > > > By the way... I've got an old Commodore SX-64 that seems to have a raster > > but no working CPU. Was there a common failure mode for these? > > Do you get a blue screen? This is usually caused by a bad chip. > > Fixing a C64 is fairly easy. Without going into a specific > troubleshooting discussion, the easiest thing to do is to get a known good > C-64 (a dime a dozen at thrift stores around here) that you don't care > about sacrificing and begin replacing the socketed chips from the C64 into > the SX64 (SX-64 = C-64 in a portable case...internals are the same). Nine > times out of ten you'll end up fixing it within the first few swaps. I > can't remember which chips to start with and not having a C64 in front of > me, I can't tell you, but just start on one end and work your way to the > other. I'm sure someone else here can provide more specific information. > If this doesn't work then you might suspect a bad RAM chip which you'll > usually have to resort to soldering in order to replace. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! -- _________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | |-----------------------------------------| | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | | (402) 872- 3272 | |_________________________________________| From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 27 18:44:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours References: Message-ID: <34CE7F67.A5DEFAB2@cnct.com> James Willing wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > That's easy... the IBM 5100 is well over 50 lbs. > > > > Well, my HP2100A CPU has a handle on the side... And it's a stagger-job > > to move it - I guess it weighs around 100 lbs. > > Well... the PDP-8/e in the desktop configuration (handle on either side) > with a decent set of boards and core hits right beweeen 95-100 lbs. > (*big* transformer in that linear power supply) > > BTW: If I bolt a couple of handles on the top of my 11/780 can it play > too? (so it won't feel left out... CPU at about 1150 lbs.) Go ahead. Make sure the handles are sized and spaced right for tines of the forklift. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 27 19:18:57 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <13327592204.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > I have a pinout of the casette cable somewhere, in fact I have the book with > the schematics and the dump of the ROMs for the IBM PC... I'll have to go > dig it out. > ------- Well, this will give you a good start. - don The interface to the cassette adapter is through a 5-pin DIN connector at the rear of the system unit: key 3 1 5 4 2 1. relay common 2. ground 3. relay (normally open) 4. data in 5. data out The data output level can be selected to be 0.68v or 75mv by moving a jumper on the system board. Writing a zero to bit 3 of the I/O port at hex 61 will close the contacts of the relay. donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 27 14:25:41 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: References: <199801270440.XAA18903@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Jan 26, 98 11:46:22 pm Message-ID: <199801280120.UAA11109@mail.cgocable.net> > > proper types that will not go bad. Strangely, these old grease > > looked the same and low quality as in lamp turn-switches assemblies, > > many vcrs, old tape players that I repaired. Brownish-amber colored > > kind. > > I've just bought a tube of brown-ish grease that was a very expensive > (and speciallised) plastic grease. That may be what was used here. What about slimy white lithium grease found in squeezeable tube? Some machines uses that same thing. So I'm still alive? :) I just got that one from CTC store in canada. Jason D. PS also NO sprays of any type, very uncontrolled and lands everywhere that you DO not want it to be on. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 27 19:26:39 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol Message-ID: Don't laugh. I'm getting complaints around here about one of my computers the SMS-1000 (PDP-11/73) smelling of mold and mildew, and have been asked to either remove it, or spray it down with Lysol. How safe is it to spray a computer down with Lysol? Obviously I'd not run it for a while if I do. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 27 20:36:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980127203656.474f93ea@intellistar.net> I don't think using lysol in one is a good idea! I would run it for a while and see if that dries it out. I've found that Amway's Pursue spray is great for getting rid of odors, just spray it in the area not in the machine. Perhaps you should get a portable dehumidifier and run it in there to keep down the moisture. It can't be good for the computer either. Joe At 05:26 PM 1/27/98 -0800, you wrote: >Don't laugh. I'm getting complaints around here about one of my computers >the SMS-1000 (PDP-11/73) smelling of mold and mildew, and have been asked >to either remove it, or spray it down with Lysol. How safe is it to spray >a computer down with Lysol? Obviously I'd not run it for a while if I do. > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > From william at ans.net Tue Jan 27 19:44:28 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, if what your looking for is handles, my PS/2 Model 80 weighs about > 50lbs or so. Or if you want to go into the wheeled category, my IBM > Series/1 weighs several hundred pounds... Not luggable, but it's > pushable(barely). The S/1s have the WORST casters I have ever dealt with on a wheeled rack! Anyway, the heaviest luggables that _were_ intended to be lugged are some of the computers the military purchased (just the detachable control panel of a PDP-11/M weighs five pounds!). Most of them are, ummm, built to last. William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 27 19:42:06 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <13327658590.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: Message-ID: >(Handles on an 11/780) >Nope, to pe bortable you have to be able to PORT it. (I.E lift it). Well, given the handles to attach to, and a chainhoist, I'm pretty sure I could lift it. Sounds like to much effort though :^) One question, for it to be considered portable do you have to move it all at once? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 27 19:47:58 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <9800278859.AA885946153@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: >REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was >something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I >haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a >Compaq 386? An IBM AT? I know OS/2 has had it since at least version 2, can't remember if it was in 1.3 The Amiga also has ARexx, not sure how long, but I've an Amiga OS 3.1 manual on it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jan 27 20:01:53 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 27, 98 05:26:39 pm Message-ID: <9801280201.AA30511@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 532 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980127/900c2323/attachment.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Tue Jan 27 20:13:49 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: Kaypro computers, books, software (fwd) Message-ID: Ok Kaypro freaks Look what I found! Please (as mentioned) email Eric direct 8-) BC -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: epement@ripco.com (Eric Pement) Newsgroups: chi.forsale Subject: FS: Kaypro computers, books, software Date: 27 Jan 1998 22:10:51 GMT Massive sale of CP/M, Kaypro, and ZCPR books and software: Kaypro computers: ------------------------------ About 12-16 Kaypro computers: Kaypro 1, II, 2, 2x, 4, and 10s in varying stages of repair. A few are missing FDDs, a few are missing power supplies, a few are missing power cords, a few have video trouble. Probably 4-5 of them work as is, and the others can be used for spare parts. 2 have Advent TurboROMs included. Original master disks included. External CP/M or ZCPR software, with disks and manuals: ------------------------------ NZ-COM v1.0 (replacement for the CP/M command processor) ZSDOS v1.0 (replacement for BDOS, Plu*Perfect Systems) MULTICOPY, DOSDISK (foreign disk formats, Plu*Perfect Systems) HYPERTYPER (typing tutor, Summit Software) KAMAS v1.2 (outline editor, Kamasoft, Inc.) DOCU-POWER v1.1 (document outliner, Computing!) POWER! (front-end shell for CP/M, Computing!) SCS DRAW (Kaypro drawing program, Second City Software) SMARTKEY II, SMARTPRINT (keyboard redefinition, Heritage Software) FREE FILER v5.0 (freeform database, Telion Software) PUNCTUATION + STYLE v1.21 (2 copies, Oasis Software) CATALOG (disk catalog system, SRX Systems) FOOTNOTE, PAIR (supports footnotes in WordStar, Pro/Tem Software) NOTEBOOK v1.3 (text-oriented database system, Pro/Tem Software) Books: ------------------------------ CHILTON'S GUIDE TO KAYPRO REPAIR AND MAINTENANCE, Gene Williams (Chilton, 1985) CP/M AND THE PERSONAL COMPUTER, Thos. Dwyer & Margot Critchfield (Addison-Wesley, 1983) CP/M REVEALED, Jack Dennon (Hayden Book Co., 1982) MASTERING CP/M, Alan Miller (Sybex, 1983) SOUL OF CP/M, Mitchell Waite & Robert Lafore (Howard W. Sams, 1983) THE PROGRAMMER'S CP/M HANDBOOK, Andy Johnson-Laird (Osborne/McGraw-Hill, 1983) A PROGRAMMER'S NOTEBOOK: UTILITIES FOR CP/M-80, David Cortesi (Reston, 1983) DIGITAL RESEARCH CP/M VERSION 1.4 & 2.0 DOCUMENTATION, Digital Research, Inc. (Digital Research, 1978) HOW TO PROGRAM THE Z80, 3d ed., Rodnay Zaks (Sybex, 1980) Z80 USERS MANUAL, Joseph Carr (Reston, 1980) Z80 ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE PROGRAMMING, Lance Leventhal (Osborne/McGraw-Hill, 1979) Z80 ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE PROGRAMMING MANUAL, Rel. 2.1 (Zilog, 1978) Z80-CPU, Z80A-CPU TECHNICAL MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) Z80-CTC, Z80A-CTC TECHNICAL MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) Z80-PI0, Z80A-PIO TECHNICAL MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) Z80-MCB HARDWARE USER'S MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) Z80-AIO/AIB HARDWARE USER'S MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) Z80-PPB HARDWARE USER'S MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) RMB (RMB/E) HARDWARE USER'S MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) MCZ-1/20,25 HARDWARE USER'S MANUAL (Zilog, 1977) TURBOROM USER'S MANUAL, 0816D1 Rev.B (Advent Products, Inc., 1986) CROMEMCO Z80 MACRO ASSEMBLER (looseleaf notebook). Contains "Cromemco Macro Assembler Instruction Manual," plus addendum (1980), "Cromemco Text Editor Instruction Manual" (1978), and "Cromemco Screen Editor Instruction Manual" (1979). AN INTRODUCTION TO MICROCOMPUTERS: VOLUME 0, THE BEGINNER'S BOOK, 2d ed., Adam Osborne (Osborne & Associates, 1979) AN INTRODUCTION TO MICROCOMPUTERS: VOLUME 1, BASIC CONCEPTS, 2d ed., Adam Osborne (Osborne/McGraw-Hill, 1980) WORDSTAR AND FRIENDS FOR THE KAYPRO II & 4, T. Gregory Platt and Roz Van Meter (PeopleTalk Associates, 1983) THE COMPLETE HANDBOOK OF PERSONAL COMPUTER COMMUNICATIONS, Alfred Glossbrenner (St. Martin's Press, 1983) THE COMPLETE HANDBOOK OF PERSONAL COMPUTER COMMUNICATIONS, rev. ed., Alfred Glossbrenner (St. Martin's Press, 1985) HOW TO GET FREE SOFTWARE, Alfred Glossbrenner (St. Martin's Press, 1984) HOW TO TELECOMMUNICATE, Corey Sandler (Henry Holt, 1986) PERFSTAR: MAKING PERFECT WRITER ACT LIKE WORDSTAR, Jon Trott (self-published, 1986) GREY KAYPRO MANUALS (for CP/M; standard size, 7"x9"): ------------------------------ CALCSTAR USER'S MANUAL - 4 copies CBASIC - 2 copies CP/M MANUAL - 5 copies DATASTAR REFERENCE MANUAL - 2 copies DATASTAR TRAINING GUIDE - 3 copies dBASE II - 1 copy INTRODUCTION TO SOFTWARE - 4 copies KAYPRO 1 USER'S GUIDE AND PERFECT WRITER - 3 copies KAYPRO II USER'S GUIDE - 2 copies KAYPRO USER'S GUIDE - 1 copy MAILMERGE REFERENCE MANUAL - 3 copies MICROPLAN - 2 copies MICROSOFT BASIC - 7 copies MICROSOFT BASIC QUICK REFERENCE GUIDE - 5 copies PERFECT CALC - 4 copies PERFECT FILER - 3 copies PROFITPLAN - 2 copies REPORTSTAR GENERAL INFORMATION MANUAL - 2 copies REPORTSTAR TRAINING GUIDE - 3 copies REPORTSTAR USER REFERENCE MANUAL - 4 copies S-BASIC - 2 copies SUPERSORT - 1 copy SUPRTERM - 1 copy THE WORD PLUS - 5 copies USER'S GUIDE FOR WORDSTAR/MAILMERGE - 1 copy GREY KAYPRO MANUALS (for CP/M; large size, 8 1/4"x10 3/4"): ------------------------------ CP/M: AN INTRODUCTION TO CP/M FEATURES AND FACILITIES - 1 copy KAYPRO II USER'S GUIDE - 1 copy MICROSOFT BASIC - 2 copies (1 spiral-bound, 1 perfect-bound) PROFITPLAN - 2 copies S-BASIC - 3 copies WORDSTAR v3.0 - 1 copy LOOSELEAF NOTEBOOKS: ------------------------------ KAYPRO 10 USER'S GUIDE - 2 copies PERFECT WRITER - 1 copy WORDSTAR MANUAL v3.0 - 1 copy (MicroPro) WHITE QUICK-REFERENCE COMMAND CARDS: ------------------------------ WORDSTAR - 1 copy DATASTAR - 2 copies CALCSTAR - 2 copies REPORTSTAR - 1 copy PERFECT WRITER - 1 copy PERFECT CALC - 1 copy I really don't have any good idea what to ask for this stuff in terms of prices, so make me an offer. All the books are in very good to excellent condition (no damage, no highlighting or underscoring, etc.). I'll be accepting bids or offers until March 1, 1998. First, I'd prefer to sell it all together, all at once, to save myself multiple boxes for shipping. However, I'll *consider* selling sections to people who really want it. Ideally, the person who gets the Kaypro computers should also get the manuals to go with them. Second, I'd prefer to sell the set to someone who can pick them up here in Chicago, or who will pay for shipping. If you're involved with a church or nonprofit helps organization (or a bona-fide CP/M museum), leave me your phone number or e-mail address even if you can't afford to buy them. If nobody is interested, I'll contact you. Feel free to copy or repost this message in other "for-sale" areas that would be relevant to CP/M, Z80, ZCPR, or Kaypro hardware. Kind regards, Eric Pement senior editor, Cornerstone magazine 939 W. Wilson Ave. Chicago, IL 60640 phone: 773/561-2450, ext. 2084 fax: 773/989-2076 ----------------------------------------------------------- "Perfect Writer on the other hand, because it is written in 'C', will not become obsolete, but will easily accompany advances in computer hardware through the year 2000, at least. This means that if you upgrade your computer hardware in the coming years, you can be safely assured that: * Your text files will still be usable. * You will not need to purchase a new word processor. * You will not need to learn a new word processor." -- Perfect Writer User's Guide [for CP/M], 1982 ------------------------------------------------------------ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 27 20:05:58 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980127203656.474f93ea@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: >I don't think using lysol in one is a good idea! I would run it for a >while and see if that dries it out. I've found that Amway's Pursue spray is >great for getting rid of odors, just spray it in the area not in the >machine. Perhaps you should get a portable dehumidifier and run it in >there to keep down the moisture. It can't be good for the computer either. I think the problem was where it was stored prior to my getting it. I'm not a hundred percent sure what piece, or pieces of equipment are the problem. It's looking as if it _Might_ be the VT220, and I hope this is the case, as that particulare one doesn't work that great. Actually it's gotten bad enough in the last day that I'm noticing it, and in the hour I've been home I now agree it's a problem. I think it's either the VT220 or the SMS-1000, I pray it's not the MicroVAX II :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue Jan 27 20:30:23 1998 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Collectors of Mainframes. Message-ID: <199801280230.VAA04761@golden.net> Who among you collects mainframes? I couldn't resist asking in light of the "what's the heaviest portable" thread, because the CPU of IBM System/3 Model 15 I have weighs 1800 lbs. This list community has already dealt with the question of why collect mainframes, so let's try to avoid a repeat performance and stick to answering the lead question. Many mainframe collectors aren't on the Internet (and frankly, they tell me, they don't miss it). These people are retired and grew up with big iron so its natural for them to be drawn to mainframes. I have the Sys/3 and an IBM 360/22 (complete systems including keypunches and boxes of unused 80-column cards). Yours in good faith Kevin From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Tue Jan 27 20:37:12 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The S/1s have the WORST casters I have ever dealt with on a wheeled rack! Why is that? They seem to work pretty good for me... I suppose it would be nice if they rolled a bit easier though. Small steel wheels never work well, I know that first hand from some VERY old completely metal roller skates my mom got at a garage sale a few years back. They did not work at all! They quickly dissappeared into the backyard after they were left out in the rain and rusted away to nothing... No big loss, except perhaps to look back at a small piece of history... I'm sure they must've been at least 30 years old. And I killed them... Well, now I get to play with computers, and the metal wheels on my Series/1(IBM 4997 rack) work much better than those old roller skates. And as a bonus, they skid across the surface of the basement floor(bare concrete), which is much easier than trying to swivel them around in a complete circle to move them... Especially since the racks don't clear the huge (at least 1 foot diameter) ducts coming from a hug octopus furnace, which I am told was converted to oil and used to be a coal burning furnace. I'll have to put up a QuickCam photo of that furnace on my web page eventually... Right now it's hidden behind a bunch of old furnature and spare 4997 racks. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From aaron at prinsol.com Tue Jan 27 20:40:48 1998 From: aaron at prinsol.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol In-Reply-To: <9801280201.AA30511@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: I had a similar problem with a thrift-store machine that made my office smell like a basement for a week (the previous owner must have lived in a swamp - mildew was growing on everything inside). I took it apart to nuts and bolts (maybe not feasible in your case) and scrubbed the crap off of everything with alcohol. Just spraying air freshener "near" the unit is a bad approach to fixing the immediate problem; any time a computer smells like it's rotting from the inside it probably needs some TLC... On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Don't laugh. I'm getting complaints around here about one of my computers > > the SMS-1000 (PDP-11/73) smelling of mold and mildew, and have been asked > > to either remove it, or spray it down with Lysol. How safe is it to spray > > a computer down with Lysol? Obviously I'd not run it for a while if I do. > > Far better than just spraying it down would be to actually open it up and > remove whatever's molding/decaying in there. If there are foam fan filters, > they're probably the cause, and should be replaced in any event. > > Tim. > From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 27 20:45:19 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980127214323.006c187c@netpath.net> At 05:26 PM 1/27/98 -0800, you wrote: >Don't laugh. I'm getting complaints around here about one of my computers >the SMS-1000 (PDP-11/73) smelling of mold and mildew, and have been asked >to either remove it, or spray it down with Lysol. How safe is it to spray >a computer down with Lysol? Obviously I'd not run it for a while if I do. Well, I know it kills germs and bacteria, but I'm not sure about computer virii. ( Thank you! Ya'll have been a wonderful crowd! G'night everybody!) Seriously, I don't see a problem, just try to keep it away from the boards, let it dry thoroughly if you get alot of buildup, and you should be good to go. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Tue Jan 27 20:46:30 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Collectors of Mainframes. In-Reply-To: <199801280230.VAA04761@golden.net> Message-ID: >Who among you collects mainframes? I couldn't resist asking in light of the >"what's the heaviest portable" thread, because the CPU of IBM System/3 Model >15 I have weighs 1800 lbs. Well, I don't have any mainframes, but if I had enough room(like a small warehouse), I would definitley be looking for one... For now I'm content to try to fix my IBM Series/1 minicomputer, which was hard enough to get home. I would hate to see what would happen if I tried to get a mainframe into my basement. >I have the Sys/3 and an IBM 360/22 (complete systems including keypunches >and boxes of unused 80-column cards). That brings up two questions: 1) Where do I find old punch cards(used or "new") 2) Would it be possible to hook up a punch card reader to a PC? Read old punch cards with your PC using a mainframe emulator! Yes, I have seen mainframe emulators. I think it's mostly for development(it's a System/370 assembly language emulator IIRC), and it's in one of the big archives... I'll try to find it and post the URL. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here pissed of at the President, because the TV station here put him on instead of The Simpsons... >:-( -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jan 27 20:47:44 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: dBASE II manual Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980127214734.006a5efc@netpath.net> Anyone have an extra dBASE II manual they'd be willing to part with? I've got dBASE II in ROM on one of my GRiDCASE 3 laptops, and would like to learn more about it. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jan 27 21:58:42 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Interesting Find In-Reply-To: <021301bd2b79$de45de80$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980127215842.0093e100@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Cliff Gregory typed: [snip] >BTW, the screen has a blue/purple sort of tint to it. Kind of >attractive in a psychodelic sort of way ( oh please, no more drug-related >threads ). I may be wrong on this, but that color could be due to the display being a "supertwist LCD" -- I remember seeing a couple Tandy MSDOS laptops with a funky tint as you described -- and this was a big marketing point for those machines. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From william at ans.net Tue Jan 27 21:34:29 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Collectors of Mainframes. In-Reply-To: <199801280230.VAA04761@golden.net> Message-ID: > Who among you collects mainframes? Well, I want to, and missed out on an IBM 7094 just a few months ago. I am pursuing some Burroughs stuff at this moment, as well. Most everything else in the 200 pound plus category is a mini (IBM S/1, SGI 2500T, PDP-8/S, Interdata 14, IBM RS/6000/T3B). > I couldn't resist asking in light of the > "what's the heaviest portable" thread, because the CPU of IBM System/3 Model > 15 I have weighs 1800 lbs. Any chance you could post some information on the beast (or maybe some pointers to some pictures)? I know just about nothing about the S/3s, other than they are just about IBMs first minis. > Many mainframe collectors aren't on the Internet (and frankly, they tell me, > they don't miss it). These people are retired and grew up with big iron so > its natural for them to be drawn to mainframes. Who else is there (other than Paul Pierce, who occasionally posts stuff here)? I would love to know what machines are out there! > I have the Sys/3 and an IBM 360/22 (complete systems including keypunches > and boxes of unused 80-column cards). Hmmmm...a S/360 you say...hmmm. Does the thing work? I have been looking for a S/360 or S/370 for a while now with no luck. The only ones I have found were carcasses in an mid-east Illinois junkyard. Even the really cool control panels (just about the best ever put on computers) were completely stripped. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Jan 27 21:33:45 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: <01bd2b9d$8a09cd80$LocalHost@hotze> Actually, I've had lots of bad luck with Compaq. They're semi-PCs (like the Tandy 1000's) I mean, if you go to download Internet Explorer 4 from Microsoft, they have a seperate download for Compaqs. If you call tech support, they'll charge you for ANYTHING they can. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 1:56 AM Subject: Re: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. >> >> Big CHOMP! >> >> >... You could hose up the head, or send a minute >> > electrical charge through your body that could affect your ability to >> > reproduce in the future. Unless you are really good with working on tiny >> > mechanical parts, save yourself the headache and replace the drive. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> To vent abit... >> >> This reponses is typical of tech-support droid who do not wants >> anyone to mess with internal computer parts without giving any tips > >Well said. I agree 100% >Not only do I _enjoy_ doing repairs, but I am getting fed up with the >number of times I've received replies like : >'Monochrome monitors are old-fashioned. You can buy a new SVGA colour >monitor for less than the cost of repair' > >The problem is, the monitor in question was off a Whitechapel >workstation. Not the sort of machine you can just plug a PC monitor into. > >Ditto disk drives. You can't plug just any hard disk into a PERQ or a >PDP8, or an Apple ][, or a whatever. Sometimes you have to repair the old >unit. > >That's apart from the fact that you should try to keep as many original >parts in a classic as you can. > >Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, some people on this list are >quite good at handling small parts (a lot smaller than you find in disk >drives), are quite happy to replace surface mount components at home, >will rebuild thick-film hybrids, will rewind motors, will realign disk >drives, and have an array of tools and test equipment that exceeds just >about any service centre. > >Another mini-flame for service manuals that claim that some part is 'not >field repairable'. Sorry, but _I'll_ decide what _I_ can repair. At the >moment, the only thing I can't rebuild is hard disk HDAs. But I'd much >rather have a service manual that starts 'Take the HDA into a clean room >and undo the cover screws (#1 in fig 4.2), lift off cover' etc than one >which entirely misses out the HDA. > >> or solution besides telling them off to "authorized sites". Compaq >> is pretty bad especially when I own years out of date equipment and >> needs trival info on two resistors to fix a SLT power brick, I'm > >Do you have any idea as to the circuit topology in this unit? I don't >have any Compaq stuff, but I may be able to guess what's going on if you >indicate what the main chopper control chip is, and where the resistors >are located (electrically) in relation to it. > >> Jason D. > >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 20:14:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <34CE7A7D.CC04C036@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 27, 98 07:23:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/c5652120/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 20:22:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: RD53 problem In-Reply-To: <13327651762.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jan 27, 98 02:57:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/9236a7bf/attachment.ksh From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 19:48:04 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Apple II GS Message-ID: <199801280339.TAA12359@mxu3.u.washington.edu> I've been offered and Apple II GS. Anyone interested? I doubt it'll ever be rare... manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 21:02:27 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: <199801280339.TAA11407@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > Slot 8 on an XT > is strange, and the card put in it needs to assert one of the pins (I > think it's B8) during a read cycle. Just about the only card that does > this is the IBM Async card Um. My references tell me that the PC (thus, slot 5, nearest the P/S) is peculiar, but nothing is strange with XT slot 8 -- at least, according to my references. FWIW, I've run a variety of cards in XT slot 8 and PC slot 5 with no problems. manney@nwohio.com "Would a skinny ballerina wear a one-one?" From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 21:21:10 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <199801280339.TAA23736@mxu2.u.washington.edu> > well, you could get your 5150 in several different flavours: one, two or no > floppy drives. You could actually get four, supported by the motherboard switches. ($529 each, IIRC) There was some sort of expansion box, or you could get external drives. I presume that's what the connector on the back of the FDD controller was for. manney From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 21:11:01 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <199801280339.TAA05695@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > BTW has anyone ever seen someone use the cassette port? I supported > several hundred early PC user's and never even heard of anyone using the > cassette port. Nope. Except, of course, to plug in the keyboard by mistake. A while ago, someone pointed out that IBM didn't even sell a cassette player. You were supposed to go out to your local Radio Schlock... From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 21:30:43 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Humor, partly offtopic Message-ID: <199801280339.TAA12388@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Check out http://www.elsop.com/wrc/humor/toasters.htm If xxx company made toasters...mostly computer humor. (and, of course, apologies to anyone not interested.) manney From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 20:16:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <34CE7A71.59C9@washington.cospo.osis.gov> from "Mike Allison" at Jan 27, 98 04:23:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 689 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/d2ab9662/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 21:49:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980127203656.474f93ea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > I don't think using lysol in one is a good idea! I would run it for a > while and see if that dries it out. I've found that Amway's Pursue spray is > great for getting rid of odors, just spray it in the area not in the > machine. Perhaps you should get a portable dehumidifier and run it in > there to keep down the moisture. It can't be good for the computer either. Actually, a humid environment is good for keeping static at bay. As long as water is not dripping off the PCBs you're ok. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 20:00:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <023701bd2b7b$73710380$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> from "Cliff Gregory" at Jan 27, 98 06:29:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/75000de5/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 22:02:36 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Apple II GS In-Reply-To: <199801280339.TAA12359@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > I've been offered and Apple II GS. Anyone interested? I doubt it'll ever be > rare... Doesn't matter. Its a fun computer to play with and hack on. Someone should take PG up on this. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Tue Jan 27 22:04:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <199801280339.TAA23736@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > > well, you could get your 5150 in several different flavours: one, two or > no > > floppy drives. > > You could actually get four, supported by the motherboard switches. ($529 > each, IIRC) There was some sort of expansion box, or you could get external > drives. I presume that's what the connector on the back of the FDD > controller was for. You could get the expansion chassis which was basically another PC box with a passive back-plane and a receiver card (basically a bus extender) and add more floppies in that. I found one at a thrift shop last year. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 21:56:36 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours Message-ID: <199801280405.UAA07738@mxu1.u.washington.edu> I 've got a mint one. Reply privately. manney@nwohio.com > Does anyone have a luggable Commodore SX-64 for sale by chance? I am _really_ > looking for one. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 21:52:02 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <199801280405.UAA13556@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Yes. I have a 64-256K motherboard with cassette port, too. manney > Not quite. Only the 5-slot motherboards have the cassette connector. My > IBM PC Technical reference gives a schematic for a 64K-256K system board > with a cassette interface. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jan 27 21:59:11 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol Message-ID: <199801280407.UAA25971@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Why not put in baking soda, as with a refrigerator? Just don't spill it... > > Don't laugh. I'm getting complaints around here about one of my computers > > the SMS-1000 (PDP-11/73) smelling of mold and mildew, From engine at chac.org Tue Jan 27 22:14:03 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Collectors of Mainframes. In-Reply-To: <199801280230.VAA04761@golden.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980127201403.0103d860@pop.batnet.com> At 21:30 1/27/98 -0500, Kevin wrote: >Who among you collects mainframes? I couldn't resist asking.... Well, the CHAC has the last known SDS 930, so I guess I do! __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jan 27 22:33:35 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: <34f041ae.652130133@hoser> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128153335.00b2e170@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:42 PM 1/24/98 GMT, Bill Richman wrote: >Personally, I _enjoy_ hearing a little bit about the lives of people >who share some of my interests. I think the thing I find most interesting about the lives of people on the list is the relatively large number of "young" list members. I'd really thought that it'd only be the older group with a nostalgic feeling for old iron that would be interested in collecting old iron. To add some "on-topic" content to this e-mail: One of the seminal articles I remember reading in Byte (in the good old days :-) was one by Carl Helmers talking about setting up an Apple II to run UCSD Pascal. I'm slowly assembling all the necessary bits but I seem to remember that to run UCSD Pascal you needed the "Euro+" Apple II. Can anyone confirm this? Preferably someone running UCSD Pascal on an Apple II... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 27 18:29:34 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <01bd2b9d$8a09cd80$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <199801280523.AAA05660@mail.cgocable.net> > Actually, I've had lots of bad luck with Compaq. They're semi-PCs (like the > Tandy 1000's) I mean, if you go to download Internet Explorer 4 from > Microsoft, they have a seperate download for Compaqs. If you call tech > support, they'll charge you for ANYTHING they can. > Tim D. Hotze Hotze, don't really jump on Compaq with zeal; they're very pretty GOOD if you KNOW what you're doing them for. I found that one you have talked about is one very rare case where M$ is real problem there. In my opinion, M$ should have coded their stuff properly instead of trying to break other machines. And, this is NOT only compaq, IBM is bit guilty on few of their late PS/1 486 with (soft power switch). Discovered Win95 would wedge in strange manner unless we got the proper cd from IBM for specific machines. Those machines were intended for LOW END users so they're usually bit oddball. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Jan 27 18:36:34 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980127203656.474f93ea@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: <199801280530.AAA06868@mail.cgocable.net> > I don't think using lysol in one is a good idea! I would run it for a > while and see if that dries it out. I've found that Amway's Pursue spray is > great for getting rid of odors, just spray it in the area not in the > machine. Perhaps you should get a portable dehumidifier and run it in > there to keep down the moisture. It can't be good for the computer either. > > Joe Any "odor killer" sprays only hid the real smell or overload your sense of smell. Ozone will burn out those smells and that is used to recover smoke-damaged stuff but hard on anything if used too much and not very good healthy unless that object is bagged up tightly and pump ozone in. Also very mild ozone dissapates static too. But you still need to strip down and remove any foam, anything that can soak up moisture and all those gunge, and clean those DUST out. Dust does smells if it got wet or too much humid. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jan 27 23:43:21 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: Collectors of Mainframes. In-Reply-To: References: <199801280230.VAA04761@golden.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980127214321.0377820c@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:46 PM 1/27/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Who among you collects mainframes? Paul Pierce (and yes, he is lurking out here somewhere...) Pix at http://www.teleport.com/~prp >That brings up two questions: >1) Where do I find old punch cards(used or "new") Boy, can I relate to *that* one! As part of the preparations for an exhibit (that I am *still* working on) I needed to find a quantity of punch cards (unpunched) to feed to my unit-record equipment and mini-computers. I chased that one for a *long* time, getting a partial box here and there from people usually using them as notepads. I finally stumbled into a decent quantity from a local recycler who had heard of my search. Turned out that he had just cleaned out an old data center that had been relocated and found a couple of pallets of them! (salvation!) I grabbed about a dozen boxes. Don't know if there are still any left... >2) Would it be possible to hook up a punch card reader to a PC? Read old >punch cards with your PC using a mainframe emulator! To a PC? Probably, but seems somewhat sacreligious. (and excessively complicated) I've actually hooked up a DEC card reader to one of my Altairs for a recent job while I was still restoring the PDP-8 that it actually should have been hooked to. Took about 4 hours to wire the cable and interface, and another 1.5 hours to hand assemble the code to run it... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jan 27 22:40:14 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: 99cent store find/missed finds... References: <199801270802.AAA10138@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34CEB6AE.6BD@goldrush.com> From: Sam Ismail Subject: Re: 99 cent store find... > Every once in a while you actually find something cool at those places. > There is a 99 cent clearance store (same chain as the one you went to > Larry) near me where I found a bunch of mid 80s computer programming books > (all in a series). The titles were like '6502 Assembly Language > Programming' and 'Z-80 Assembly Language Programming', 'FORTH', some > others. Were those those thinnish hardback editions... I have come across PILOT, FORTH, and TRS-80 Graphics... No 6502 Assembly though, better check there again... A couple years back I bought a couple 64 games books from another discount store, I could easily tell why they were so cheap, some had doubled or missing pages, or pages upside-down... oops. > I bought all of them at $.99 each (about 35 in all) kept a set > for myself and sold the rest on Usenet. I still have a few copies left if > anyone's interested. There are some things where you can never have too many. I find Commodore datasette drives at a real low price is my particular weakness... 00101001111010100001010111010100001101101110100100010000101101001001000111 I just got some e-mail from a user who was thanking me for the PET FAQ and directed me to a page where some Commodore stuff is (was) being sold, of course he snagged the 8010 (PET) modem before he e-mailed but I may had added a few precious books to me library. You may want to check out the site at: http://www.puppetgallery.com/compucat/sale/c64.html Besides some nice pics of what he offered for sale (I think the drives, cables, and 64 software are still available), the main page has an interesting history of the couple's computer experiences over the years (from buying one of the first PETs to having Lenoard Nimoy call his BBS...) Larry Anderson P.S. the user who e-mailed me also has a notable page, especially if you have any interest at all in the history of Commodore 64/128 BBS programs... Check it out at: http://www.prismnet.com/~bo -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 27 23:41:40 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:30 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-28 00:28:34 EST, you write: << And, this is NOT only compaq, IBM is bit guilty on few of their late PS/1 486 with (soft power switch). Discovered Win95 would wedge in strange manner unless we got the proper cd from IBM for specific machines. Those machines were intended for LOW END users so they're usually bit oddball. >> later model ps1 machines had rapid resume, which was basically a suspended animation function essentially which i think bill gates wants to include in some PC9x specification to known as instant on or something like that. win95 should still be able to to work with that function. I know the ibm machine i'm using has the soft power switch and apm, and windont95 works fine with it. david From dcoward at pressstart.com Wed Jan 28 00:46:30 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: : Re: Development, round II Message-ID: <19980127224630.0788ed2b.in@mail.pressstart.com> Andrew Gammuto said: >I never saw anybody use the cassette port for practical purposes. In fact, I >never saw a cassette drive from IBM. Good trivia question. Has anybody >ever >seen one? I do remember reading something years ago about hobbyists >using >the cassette port for plugging in wierd hardware hacks. I don't think IBM would have made cassette recorders. IBM made a cassette adapter cable for the IBMPCjr, but I don't think one was ever made for the PC. Pero, Jason D. said: >The orignals were lower density like 320k each at first but quickly >gone after XT came out with standard 360k drive or two, or floppy and >10mb HD. It was DOS 2.0 that increased the formatted capacity from 320K to 360K. --------------------------------------------- Fun Fact: ( system requirement chart for DOS from the IBM Personal Computer Software Library booklet,1985) DOS version Computers 1.00 PC 1.10 PC 2.00 PC, XT 2.10 PC, XT, PCjr, Portable PC 3.00 PC, XT, PCjr, Portable PC, AT 3.10 PC, XT, PCjr, Portable PC, AT Notes: DOS 3.00 does not support the 30MB IBM Personal Computer AT. DOS 2.00 or higher is required for fixed disk storage. DOS 3.10 or higher is required for operation on the IBM PC Network. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Wed Jan 28 01:44:45 1998 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Interesting Find Message-ID: <01bd2bc0$99d48980$6c3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I think I have 2 of these somewhere, but called PC7000's. One with a HDD and the other with 2 FDD's. No Docs unfortunately. I think they have some unusual distinction, the first backlit LCD screen maybe (from memory). -----Original Message----- From: Cliff Gregory To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 28 January 1998 10:24 Subject: Interesting Find >Found an interesting (at least to me) luggable/portable at the local thrift >the other day. It's a Sharp PC-7100. Very compact and sharp (no pun) >design. About half the size and weight of an old Compaq, with a detatchable >keyboard, tiltable LCD screen, 5.25 floppy, 20 meg hard drive. It booted >fine from the hard drive (MSDOS 3.2). > >I haven't taken the time to open it up and look inside, but I ran MSD from a >floppy, and it reported the computer to be a Sharp/ERSO, 8088 or 8086 >processor, 704k RAM. When I browsed the ROM memory, the result was: >aVADEM-SHARP Personal Computer System Firmware Version 3.0B copyright 1985 >Vadem Inc. > >I did a cursory search on the net for more information but came up empty, so >if anyone can help with more info or docs for this one, I would appreciate >it. BTW, the screen has a blue/purple sort of tint to it. Kind of >attractive in a psychodelic sort of way ( oh please, no more drug-related >threads ). > >Cliff Gregory >cgregory@lrbcg.com > > > From engine at chac.org Wed Jan 28 01:42:00 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: UCSD Pascal on Europlus (was: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!])) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980128153335.00b2e170@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.a u> References: <34f041ae.652130133@hoser> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980127234200.010869d0@pop.batnet.com> At 15:33 1/28/98 +1100, Huw Davies wrote: >....I seem to remember >that to run UCSD Pascal you needed the "Euro+" Apple II. Can anyone confirm >this? Well, that's not a combo I've run, but if a Europlus will do it, any ][+ should do it, the implication being that you need 48K RAM. (32K mainboard and the Language Card?? Help me out here....) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 28 02:03:11 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: MFM drives & Interlink Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980127095730.4e37703c@ricochet.net> At 03:01 PM 1/26/98 -0600, you wrote: >FastLynx: A program from RUPP corporation, alot like LapLink, except >with a much simpler (and easier to use) user interface (IMHO). The >program died off though, as Lap Link became more popular (I still >don't understand why). If you used the serial link, it could upload >itself to the target machine. I still use it. I think it died out because of the gawdawful color of their cables. 8^) (Some horrid shade of Red, iirc?) Actually, I had both, and preferred LapLink. Haven't used FastLynx in about 10 years. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 28 02:03:21 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980127103837.4e37b2ac@ricochet.net> At 06:33 PM 1/26/98 -0500, you wrote: > It's a shame...but it seems to me that DEC should have seen it coming. Can't disagree there... >Death comes to the last of the old-line computer companies. Huh? What about HP? Still going strong with the HP3000 (ca. 1972?). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 28 02:03:31 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980127113609.29f70966@ricochet.net> At 06:29 PM 1/26/98 PST, you wrote: >Another thing: CP/M was run on just about everything, usually with >about 64K ram. How is it that MS-DOS blew up to about 384K? What >did they put in there? The MicroSloth License Agreement. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Wed Jan 28 02:10:21 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions Message-ID: Wonderful things, but.... I was looking around on eBay, and found several things that cought my eye. Hey, there's a Mac IIx 2/40 for $2! But pay another $20-50 more for shipping? I could probably find it for the same price or cheaper locally. Well, it will take some time... The most recent IIx I've seen for sale(although much more RAM/HD) is $175. But I HAVE seen them around(before I got interested in collecting computers) for anywhere from $10-500. It's a crazy world... Everyone always asks me why I don't have a C64 or TRS-80 or any of those type of computers. Well, I was offered a TRS-80 Model 4, I offered $5 for it, he responded that he didn't even sell it when he was offered $75 a few months earlier. I either run into people trashing or giving away their computers(Series/1, Apple IIe, PS/2 Model 50Z) or they want to sell them as antiques(and at prices much worse than any antique store I'VE ever seen...). Would someone hurry up and invent a time machine? Zip back about 5-10 years ago when people didn't really care either way and pick up some collectors pieces for $5 and come back to the future where people sell them for $500... -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jan 28 02:47:46 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Apple II GS Message-ID: <01bd2bc9$67cf4660$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I'll take it! -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Apple II GS >On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, PG Manney wrote: > >> I've been offered and Apple II GS. Anyone interested? I doubt it'll ever be >> rare... > >Doesn't matter. Its a fun computer to play with and hack on. Someone >should take PG up on this. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > From aaron at prinsol.com Wed Jan 28 03:41:19 1998 From: aaron at prinsol.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Plastic yellowing Message-ID: Does anyone have a remedy for bad case yellowing? I have the suspicion that it's a permanent chemical change, but I thought it might be worth a shot. For most of the systems, I don't really mind and for some, it adds to the character. The only one that's bugging me is my Atari 800xl, which was my first real "programming" computer. Thanks, Aaron From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 07:21:37 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: References: <34CE7A7D.CC04C036@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128072137.487f5adc@intellistar.net> At 02:14 AM 1/28/98 +0000, you wrote: >[Incomplete service manuals] > >> Well, those service manuals were originally meant for their _own_ >> service technicians, and they knew damned well that no way in Hell >> can an entry-level service droid fix those things in the field. > >I've met a number of failed servoids who could have fixed any problem >more complex than the machine being unpluged (I've also met some >excellent ones who _really_ knew the machine, but alas they're rare). > >Perhaps I should have reworded my comments. What I would like is a >complete _technical_ manual. IBM made the very sensible (IMHO) decision >of splitting the PC (etc) manuals into the hardware maintenance and >service (which are board-level repair manuals) and the Techrefs (which >include schematics, ROM source, and no introductory stuff at all). I have >only one of the HMS manuals (the AT one - it was thrown in with some Tony, I have one HM&S for the IBM PC (original PC) and one for the 5100. I can probably get others for IBMs, let me know what you're looking for. Joe > From william at ans.net Wed Jan 28 06:39:26 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980127103837.4e37b2ac@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > >Death comes to the last of the old-line computer companies. Yes, I could never figure out this statement. IBM is still going strong in the mini markets. Unisys and Amdahl are also still making machines, although Amdahl is merging with Fujitsu (no suprise there, they were always in bed together), and Unisys really is Univac and Burroughs combined. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 08:06:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Computers & Lysol In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980127203656.474f93ea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128080639.487f5c06@intellistar.net> At 07:49 PM 1/27/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> I don't think using lysol in one is a good idea! I would run it for a >> while and see if that dries it out. I've found that Amway's Pursue spray is >> great for getting rid of odors, just spray it in the area not in the >> machine. Perhaps you should get a portable dehumidifier and run it in >> there to keep down the moisture. It can't be good for the computer either. > >Actually, a humid environment is good for keeping static at bay. As long >as water is not dripping off the PCBs you're ok. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- That's true. The recommended humidity level is 40 to 60%. But if he has mold and mildew growing then the humidity is well above those levels. The temperature is also probably too high as well. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 08:30:53 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!]) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980128153335.00b2e170@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.a u> References: <34f041ae.652130133@hoser> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128083053.487f8056@intellistar.net> At 03:33 PM 1/28/98 +1100, you wrote: >To add some "on-topic" content to this e-mail: > >One of the seminal articles I remember reading in Byte (in the good old >days :-) >was one by Carl Helmers talking about setting up an Apple II to run UCSD >Pascal. I'm slowly assembling all the necessary bits but I seem to remember >that to run UCSD Pascal you needed the "Euro+" Apple II. Can anyone confirm >this? Preferably someone running UCSD Pascal on an Apple II... > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au If you know which issue it was, I may be able to look it up. Joe > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 28 07:38:41 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13327812142.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Not really. But the entire moving operation should take less than a day. Besides, doesn't an 11/750 need 3-phase? I thought all the bug VAXen did. ------- From rcini at email.msn.com Wed Jan 28 07:45:04 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Compaq buys DEC Message-ID: <0267d2450131c18UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:03:21 -0600 (CST), Uncle Roger wrote: > It's a shame...but it seems to me that DEC should have seen it coming. >>Can't disagree there... Well, I should clarify. I'm sure that they did see it coming. A buyout of some form was headed for DEC like a Conrail freight train traveling at 100 mph. I'm not too well-versed with DEC's current product line, but I get the impression that, while good quality and adequate performers, there is nothing very distinguishing. >Death comes to the last of the old-line computer companies. >>Huh? What about HP? Still going strong with the HP3000 (ca. 1972?). I probably shouldn't have said "last" either. Wasn't DEC part of the original "seven dwarfs" of early computing? I think that IBM was "Snow White" and there were seven other mini/main companies right behind it. When I said "old line," I was thinking along the lines of Sperry and Burroughs and not HP or IBM. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 28 08:32:49 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: dBASE II manual References: <3.0.32.19980127214734.006a5efc@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34CF4191.73FE4F67@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > Anyone have an extra dBASE II manual they'd be willing to part with? I've > got dBASE II in ROM on one of my GRiDCASE 3 laptops, and would like to > learn more about it. If you want to learn dBASE II, the last thing you want is a manual. The manuals are so bad that that's what started the whole industry of third-party software guides, many of which you can still find in stores selling second-hand books. (And I'm not saying this because of the feud I had with Ashton-Tate back in the early 80s over whose fault it was when dBase II wouldn't work on a TRS-80 Model II with Lifeboat Associates CP/M -- it was eventially traced to a poorly implement system call by Lifeboat, but Ashton-Tate was no help). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Jan 28 08:45:24 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Monitor woes In-Reply-To: <19980127224929.20580.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980128094524.0077afdc@mail.wincom.net> At 02:49 PM 1/27/98 PST, you wrote: >I just acquired a PS/2 Model 25, the one with an integrated monitor and >8086. The reason it was being thrown away was that while it starts up >fine, the MCGA monitor eventually becomes tinted red and blurry. If I >turn it off and let it sit for a few minutes, then turn it on, it will >work fine again. What is the problem? Can I solve it without the risk of >shorting >capacitors and blowing myself halfway across the room? > >My understading is that this machine needs no reference disks, but >can I use a hard drive > 20MB? It never mentions it on IBM's site. >Lastly, does anyone have any of the original stuff for it, ie software, >manuals, etc. > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Sounds as if the CRT has become gassy. Sometimes can be improved by increasing the heater voltage. Try your friendly local tv repairman to see if his CRT rejuvinator will jazz it up. Regards Charlie Fox From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 28 08:53:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: dBASE II manual In-Reply-To: <34CF4191.73FE4F67@cnct.com> References: <3.0.32.19980127214734.006a5efc@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128095331.007d99d0@netpath.net> At 09:32 AM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >If you want to learn dBASE II, the last thing you want is a manual. >The manuals are so bad that that's what started the whole industry >of third-party software guides, many of which you can still find in I'm basically looking for a command reference. I haven't used dBASE II before, but this appears to be command line only, so I'd like something to go by when I'm "playing" with it to see what it'll do. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 28 09:08:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: 99cent store find/missed finds... References: <199801270802.AAA10138@lists3.u.washington.edu> <34CEB6AE.6BD@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <34CF49EB.C98ABD89@cnct.com> Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: 99 cent store find... > > > Every once in a while you actually find something cool at those places. > > There is a 99 cent clearance store (same chain as the one you went to > > Larry) near me where I found a bunch of mid 80s computer programming books > > (all in a series). The titles were like '6502 Assembly Language > > Programming' and 'Z-80 Assembly Language Programming', 'FORTH', some > > others. > > Were those those thinnish hardback editions... I have come across > PILOT, FORTH, and TRS-80 Graphics... No 6502 Assembly though, better > check there again... > > A couple years back I bought a couple 64 games books from another > discount store, I could easily tell why they were so cheap, some had > doubled or missing pages, or pages upside-down... oops. TAB Books. Without doubt the worst publisher in history. The poor construction was the least of it. Their typesetter often screwed up things like the punctuation in program listings. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 28 09:35:56 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: UCSD Pascal on Europlus (was: Are We Not Men? (& Women?) [OT^2] (Was Re: PDP-8/Es available [NOT!])) In-Reply-To: Kip Crosby's message of Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:42:00 -0800 References: <34f041ae.652130133@hoser> <3.0.5.32.19980127234200.010869d0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <199801281535.HAA08001@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Kip Crosby wrote: > At 15:33 1/28/98 +1100, Huw Davies wrote: > >....I seem to remember > >that to run UCSD Pascal you needed the "Euro+" Apple II. Can anyone confirm > >this? > > Well, that's not a combo I've run, but if a Europlus will do it, any ][+ > should do it, the implication being that you need 48K RAM. (32K mainboard > and the Language Card?? Help me out here....) 48KB on the motherboard, and the Language Card or equivalent 16KB RAM card. The canonical configuration is a Language Card in slot 0 with a 16-pin DIP jumper installed between a socket on the card and a the upper-left motherboard RAM socket (the RAM chip gets relocated to the card), but of course there were many compatible memory cards. I don't recall any reason why you couldn't do this on an Apple ][, but I know I did it on a Rev 7 ][+, and a friend had done it on an earlier rev (4?) ][+ that still had the 4K/16K jumper blocks on the motherboard. Obviously they were all set for 16K (as you must have 48KB on the motherboard). -Frank McConnell From dlw at neosoft.com Wed Jan 28 03:56:39 1998 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: UCSD Pascal on Europlus In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980127234200.010869d0@pop.batnet.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980128153335.00b2e170@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.a u> Message-ID: <199801281557.JAA14227@mailbox.neosoft.com> On 27 Jan 98 at 23:42, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 15:33 1/28/98 +1100, Huw Davies wrote: > >....I seem to remember > >that to run UCSD Pascal you needed the "Euro+" Apple II. Can anyone confirm > >this? > > Well, that's not a combo I've run, but if a Europlus will do it, any > ][+ should do it, the implication being that you need 48K RAM. (32K > mainboard and the Language Card?? Help me out here....) > > > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html > Computer History Association of California > > > ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jan 28 10:00:13 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <13327812142.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Not really. But the entire moving operation should take less than a day. > Besides, doesn't an 11/750 need 3-phase? I thought all the bug VAXen did. > ------- Recurrant rumour... 'Want', yes. 'need', no. All of the individual power supplies in the 11/780 are single phase 110vac units as in all of the DEC gear I've even come across. The 'power controller' that was standard in the '780 took the 3 phase input line and split the phases into seperate outlet banks. Bypass or replace the power controller, and party on! Of course, you still end up needing three 50 amp 110vac circuits... B^{ -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dlw at neosoft.com Wed Jan 28 04:03:03 1998 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: UCSD Pascal on Apple IIs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980127234200.010869d0@pop.batnet.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980128153335.00b2e170@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.a u> Message-ID: <199801281603.KAA16717@mailbox.neosoft.com> Sorry about that first one. On 27 Jan 98 at 23:42, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 15:33 1/28/98 +1100, Huw Davies wrote: > >....I seem to remember > >that to run UCSD Pascal you needed the "Euro+" Apple II. Can anyone confirm > >this? > > Well, that's not a combo I've run, but if a Europlus will do it, any > ][+ should do it, the implication being that you need 48K RAM. (32K > mainboard and the Language Card?? Help me out here....) Any Apple II with 64k (II and II+ with 48k motherboard and 16k ram card or IIe with 64k motherboard) can run UCSD Pascal. Apple sold UCSD Pascal and Fortran themselves. It's only takes, booting the disks to get it to run. I picked up mine not too long after I bought my II+ in 1980. Next to 6502 assembly, it was my prefered language at the time. My Fortran disks went bad long time ago, if anyone has these they'd like to get rid of let me know. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From william at ans.net Wed Jan 28 10:15:30 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bypass or replace the power controller, and party on! Of course, you > still end up needing three 50 amp 110vac circuits... B^{ How much line current does a VAX-11/780 suck anyway? I imagine 50 amps is worst case, with the startup surge, etc.. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mopar+ at pitt.edu Wed Jan 28 10:41:01 1998 From: mopar+ at pitt.edu (Jerome Marella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <13327812142.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13327812142.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: Excerpts from moparbb.classiccmp: 28-Jan-98 Re: Mines heavy er than yours Daniel Seagraves@toad.xk (157) > Not really. But the entire moving operation should take less than a day. > Besides, doesn't an 11/750 need 3-phase? I thought all the bug VAXen did. > ------- I have a couple of these and all I needed to do was change the plug to a "normal" house connector to run it at 110v single phase. After powerup my system draws about 10A. An RA81 draws about 6A after spinup. I haven't measured the surge at startup :) Jerome -- Jerome A. Marella University of Pittsburgh - CIS Systems & Networks 600 Epsilon Drive, Pittsburgh, PA 15238 mopar+@pitt.edu (412) 624-9139 Fax (412) 624-6436 http://www.pitt.edu/~mopar From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jan 28 11:30:41 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9800288860.AA886037775@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > >REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was > >something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I > >haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a > >Compaq 386? An IBM AT? > You can probably find REXX in a lot of places... There's even a shareware > version on Macintosh. And if there's an old IBM programming language on a > Mac, it's almost definitley on a lot of other platforms. Did REXX start on > the IBM mini/mainframes or is it from somewhere else? Has anyone seen a > copy of Cobol for Mac? MicroFocus used to make it, but it seems the Cobol > crowd has abondoned Macintosh... Thanks everyone for their help. I shall sometime consider PC-DOS with REXX as an environment for my AT or possibly one of my Compaqs... Am I right in thinking that OS/2 _won't_ run on an AT? ORIGINS OF REXX I met REXX in what I believe to be its native habitat - as the macro language for VM/CMS running on an IBM 370 descendant mainframe. It replaced a language called EXEC2, whose main distinguishing feature was % signs everywhere (although I can't remember what they meant). This in turn replaced a language called (you guessed it) EXEC. REXX is/was quite a nice language to use, but some features rendered it unsuitable for serious programming - numbers, for example, are stored as strings of digits in the character code of the machine you are using... Philip. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 28 11:33:22 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13327854864.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> (buncha 1-phase plugs inside an 11/750) Does that work for a VAX 780 as well? ? ------- From prp at hf.intel.com Wed Jan 28 11:38:14 1998 From: prp at hf.intel.com (Paul Pierce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 308 References: <199801280802.AAA25617@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34CF6D06.E29FB02F@hf.intel.com> > Who among you collects mainframes? I couldn't resist asking in light of the > "what's the heaviest portable" thread, because the CPU of IBM System/3 Model > 15 I have weighs 1800 lbs. I expect the heaviest unit I have on wheels is the IBM 709 CPU, in addition to its size and steel frame the whole back end is covered with filament transformers to light the tubes. I can roll it around on a level concrete floor OK, but its a good idea to avoid the cracks or at least roll it crooked (so only one wheel sees a crack at a time, and not straight on) and keep the speed up. But there are other contenders - the 709 power supply units, the motor-generator set for the 7094, the 407 accounting machine, etc. I don't know what any of these weigh off hand and don't have the installation manuals handy. There exist larger units (e.g. old CDC mainframes even apart are in large, very tall pieces; the assembled 709 memory is a T about 4 times the floor space of the CPU) but they tend not to have casters. I wonder what a more recent water-cooled machine (e.g. 3090) weighs, the TCU's (thermal conduction units) can't be very light. On other subjects - a common source of serious mildew smell is the absolute filter in a disk drive. I would check that first. - I'm reasonably certain you can still get blank punch cards. The last bunch I bought maybe 10 years ago cost $75 for 10,000. I've been meaning to get some more now that the collection has a dry home and will try to remember to post info. Paul http://www.teleport.com/~prp/collect/ From engine at chac.org Wed Jan 28 10:57:16 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Plastic yellowing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980128085716.0107cba0@pop.batnet.com> At 01:41 1/28/98 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone have a remedy for bad case yellowing? I have the suspicion >that it's a permanent chemical change.... And you're right. We asked two experts about this -- one at the Smithsonian and one at the Sci. Mus. in London -- and the consensus is that it's irreversible with any current technology. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 13:26:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: dBASE II manual In-Reply-To: <34CF4191.73FE4F67@cnct.com> References: <3.0.32.19980127214734.006a5efc@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128132611.47074a6a@intellistar.net> John, Ward is right. The dBase manual is huge and not very helpful. Get a third party book on dBase. I have Using dBase III Plus by Jones printed by Osborne-McGraw-Hill. It's an excellent book. As old as dBase is you can probably find a used book in a trift store or a new one at a closeout at a regular book store. Joe At 09:32 AM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >John Higginbotham wrote: >> >> Anyone have an extra dBASE II manual they'd be willing to part with? I've >> got dBASE II in ROM on one of my GRiDCASE 3 laptops, and would like to >> learn more about it. > >If you want to learn dBASE II, the last thing you want is a manual. >The manuals are so bad that that's what started the whole industry >of third-party software guides, many of which you can still find in >stores selling second-hand books. (And I'm not saying this because >of the feud I had with Ashton-Tate back in the early 80s over whose >fault it was when dBase II wouldn't work on a TRS-80 Model II with >Lifeboat Associates CP/M -- it was eventially traced to a poorly >implement system call by Lifeboat, but Ashton-Tate was no help). >-- >Ward Griffiths >Dylan: How many years must some people exist, > before they're allowed to be free? >WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", > they'll never be free. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 13:36:41 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 308 In-Reply-To: <34CF6D06.E29FB02F@hf.intel.com> References: <199801280802.AAA25617@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128133641.47074ab0@intellistar.net> At 09:38 AM 1/28/98 -0800, you wrote: >- I'm reasonably certain you can still get blank punch cards. The last >bunch I bought maybe 10 years ago cost $75 for 10,000. I've been meaning >to get some more now that the collection has a dry home and will try to >remember to post info. > >Paul >http://www.teleport.com/~prp/collect/ > If you need blank cards, call a local IBM office and ask for them. They'll probably give you all you can carry. A friend of mine that works for IBM says he's got about 100,000 sitting in his office. Lots of other businesses also used to use them and have tons laying around. Banks, phone company offices, utility companies, computer services, etc. I've been given piles of them over the years. I use them for notes, fire starters, etc. Joe From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jan 28 12:42:20 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: <13327854864.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > (buncha 1-phase plugs inside an 11/750) > > Does that work for a VAX 780 as well? > ? > ------- Mayhaps I brain-farted on part of the original message... I was referring to a 11/780 in my comments about 3 phase and the power controller. I've seen some followups that seem to suggest that the initial query referred to a 11/750. A '750 (or at least all of mine) have been single phase. My '780 however was initially 3 phase as in my prior comments. Summary: to date I have never run into a DEC mini that could not run on single phase power with an absolute minimum of fiddling. (usually just unplugging all of the single phase power supply pigtails from the back of the power controller) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jan 28 12:45:43 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 308 In-Reply-To: <34CF6D06.E29FB02F@hf.intel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Paul Pierce wrote: > On other subjects > > - I'm reasonably certain you can still get blank punch cards. The last > bunch I bought maybe 10 years ago cost $75 for 10,000. I've been meaning > to get some more now that the collection has a dry home and will try to > remember to post info. I'll still be interested in how this one pans out. When I was hunting I even called Globe Ticket (who used to be one of the major card vendors), and they acted like I was totally loopy for even asking! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jan 28 12:45:14 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Mines heavy er than yours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13327867947.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> That's what I wanted to hear! That means I can continue collecting 780 parts. Maybe someday I'll have a runnable configuration... ------- From bmpete at swbell.net Wed Jan 28 13:35:02 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34cf8715.604339@mail.swbell.net> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:10:21 -0800, you said: >Would someone hurry up and invent a time machine? >Zip back about 5-10 years ago when people didn't really care either way and >pick up some collectors pieces for $5 and come back to the future where >people sell them for $500... A friend is heavily into classic cars; he says a car depreciates typically until it hits a low at about 13 years, after which its' value rises. Computers probably do the same pattern although the time probably varies. The trick is to know when the machine hits bottom and which will go up from there. (If it climbs slowly, there's no hurry) _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 28 13:35:26 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Running UCSD Pascal on an Apple II In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980128153335.00b2e170@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Huw Davies wrote: > One of the seminal articles I remember reading in Byte (in the good old > days :-) > was one by Carl Helmers talking about setting up an Apple II to run UCSD > Pascal. I'm slowly assembling all the necessary bits but I seem to remember > that to run UCSD Pascal you needed the "Euro+" Apple II. Can anyone confirm > this? Preferably someone running UCSD Pascal on an Apple II... I believe the issue is that UCSD Pascal requires the Applesoft ROMs, which the older II's did not have. I believe the Euro+ was simply the European version of the Apple II+ which came with Applesoft ROMs. UCSD Pascal also requires 64K and thus requires a 16K "Language" card. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 28 13:55:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: 99cent store find/missed finds... In-Reply-To: <34CEB6AE.6BD@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > Every once in a while you actually find something cool at those places. > > There is a 99 cent clearance store (same chain as the one you went to > > Larry) near me where I found a bunch of mid 80s computer programming books > > (all in a series). The titles were like '6502 Assembly Language > > Programming' and 'Z-80 Assembly Language Programming', 'FORTH', some > > others. > > Were those those thinnish hardback editions... I have come across > PILOT, FORTH, and TRS-80 Graphics... No 6502 Assembly though, better > check there again... Yes they are. They are in the "Beginning Computer" series (something like that). Most (all?) of them were written by P(hil) Lampton. There is also Graphics Programming on the Atari and C64. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dlw at neosoft.com Wed Jan 28 07:57:55 1998 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Running UCSD Pascal on an Apple II In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980128153335.00b2e170@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199801281958.NAA00647@mailbox.neosoft.com> Any idea what UCSD uses in Applesoft that it would require the roms? I know it doesn't require the "autostart" monitor rom which came with the II+ because I replaced mine with the older II rom and UCSD still ran fine. Of course I still had the Applesoft BASIC code roms in the machine, but that was just the language interpreter. I'd be curious to know for what or why UCSD would make use of the BASIC roms. On 28 Jan 98 at 11:35, Sam Ismail wrote: > I believe the issue is that UCSD Pascal requires the Applesoft ROMs, > which the older II's did not have. I believe the Euro+ was simply > the European version of the Apple II+ which came with Applesoft > ROMs. UCSD Pascal also requires 64K and thus requires a 16K > "Language" card. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 28 15:17:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Running UCSD Pascal on an Apple II In-Reply-To: <199801281958.NAA00647@mailbox.neosoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, David Williams wrote: > Any idea what UCSD uses in Applesoft that it would require the > roms? I know it doesn't require the "autostart" monitor rom which > came with the II+ because I replaced mine with the older II rom and > UCSD still ran fine. Of course I still had the Applesoft BASIC code > roms in the machine, but that was just the language interpreter. I'd > be curious to know for what or why UCSD would make use of the BASIC > roms. I can only speculate but perhaps it used some of the floating point math routines. I'm sure, just like the X-files, the truth is out there. If I was home I could dig into my references. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 16:50:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:31 2005 Subject: Corvus PC cards Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128165001.329fa79c@intellistar.net> I have several old 8 bit PC cards that are marked "Corvus systems" and "PC Bus Transporter". Does anyone know what they're for? Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 28 14:07:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980128072137.487f5adc@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 28, 98 07:21:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1197 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/1aff26a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 28 13:54:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <199801280339.TAA23736@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 27, 98 10:21:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/61d19a80/attachment.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 28 17:54:14 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <9800288860.AA886037775@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128175414.00a11760@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk typed: [nip about REXX] >REXX is/was >quite a nice language to use, but some features rendered it unsuitable >for serious programming - numbers, for example, are stored as strings of >digits in the character code of the machine you are using... Uh, Sir Philip? Maybe there are other reasons that your statement of unsuitability stands, but I can think of one programming language that's very handy (& powerful & serious) which stores it's digits as charcter codes: Perl. From experience I can tell you that one heckuva lot more stuff gets done with Perl on the WWW than Java -- and it's a lot easier to pgm. in. Guess what! This is still ontopic for this list... there's a version of Java for almost every 16-bit or higher machine available -- including a native version that runs on an Atari ST... (version 4.035 and I think you need a meg to run it -- I've done it!) Anyway, have fun! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 28 13:51:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <199801280339.TAA11407@mxu4.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 27, 98 10:02:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/74d4a729/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 18:13:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980128072137.487f5adc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128181338.095f4b82@intellistar.net> Tony, OK. no problem. BTW what do have for the S 100 systems? I'm looking for software, boards and a Shugart SA 400 disk drive for my Altair. And anything else that might be interesting. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 18:21:25 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: References: <199801280339.TAA23736@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128182125.467734e8@intellistar.net> At 07:54 PM 1/28/98 +0000, you wrote: >> You could actually get four, supported by the motherboard switches. ($529 >> each, IIRC) There was some sort of expansion box, or you could get external >> drives. I presume that's what the connector on the back of the FDD >> controller was for. > >Even if you mounted the external drives in the 5161 expansion box, you >used the DC37 connector on the floppy controller. You didn't use a second >controller card for the extra drives. > >You link this connector using a 34 wire cable with a 'PC twist'. Pins >1,2,20 on the connector are not used, then pin 3 becomes wire 1 of the >cable, etc. An IDC connector works fine, > >My XT has 2 360K drives (IBM-badged) internally, and 2 720K drives hung >off this connector. > >-tony > There were aftermarket controllers made that had the external connector and supported 720K, 1.44 or even 1.2 Mb drives. FWIW I bought an early NEC laptop. It had a connector on that could be connected to the external floppy port and a ROM resident that turned off the CPU and memory and let you use the two internal 720K drives as external drives from a PC. Joe Joe From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 28 17:26:20 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980128182251.006e4834@netpath.net> At 07:35 PM 1/28/98 GMT, you wrote: >A friend is heavily into classic cars; he says a car depreciates >typically until it hits a low at about 13 years, after which its' >value rises. Computers probably do the same pattern although the time >probably varies. The trick is to know when the machine hits bottom and >which will go up from there. (If it climbs slowly, there's no hurry) Not anymore. There's no way all these Pentium systems out today will ever be worth anything, at least not in 13 years, IMHO. Maybe in about 30 years, when most have been destroyed will they be truly worth something as an classic. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 28 17:26:21 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: CoCo 2 & 3 max speed Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980128182607.006a8828@netpath.net> Anyone know right off hand what the highest supported baud rate is for the RS-232 on a CoCo 2 or CoCo 3? Asking for a friend who thinks she can use a 9600 baud external modem on it. (!) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 28 17:31:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: External Floppy Question Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980128183123.006d90e4@netpath.net> On average, were most external floppies that used a db25 connector, pretty much standard, as in interchangable? I'm basically talking along the lines of mid-80's laptops. I've got a GRiD 1535exp that has a db25 connector on the back for an external floppy, the left bottom most pin on the connector is plugged up. Any ideas? Anyone? -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From pvhp at forte.com Wed Jan 28 17:32:56 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801282332.AA03581@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Re[3]: Development, round II Roger Merchberger wrote: !>REXX is/was !>quite a nice language to use, but some features rendered it unsuitable !>for serious programming - numbers, for example, are stored as strings of !>digits in the character code of the machine you are using... ! !Uh, Sir Philip? ! !Maybe there are other reasons that your statement of unsuitability stands, !but I can think of one programming language that's very handy (& powerful & !serious) which stores it's digits as charcter codes: Perl. From experience !I can tell you that one heckuva lot more stuff gets done with Perl on the !WWW than Java -- and it's a lot easier to pgm. in. ! !Guess what! This is still ontopic for this list... there's a version of !Java for almost every 16-bit or higher machine available -- including a !native version that runs on an Atari ST... (version 4.035 and I think you !need a meg to run it -- I've done it!) But Perl is 10 years old and Java is not. It is still quite easy to distinguish a perl scalar that contains a numeric value from one that does not. From the old FAQ you add 0 to see if the thing remains unchanged: $ perl -e '$s = "a"; if ($s + 0 eq $s) {print "num"} else {print "string"}' string $ perl -e '$s = "1"; if ($s + 0 eq $s) {print "num"} else {print "string"}' num See also "perlfaq4: Data:Misc: How do I determine whether a scalar is a number/whole/integer/float?" at http://www.perl.com/CPAN-local/doc/FAQs/FAQ/PerlFAQ.html for a whole slew of regular expressions for numbers. BTW Tcl runs on a bunch of platforms and treats many things like strings as well (hence it requires the expr() call for numeric evaluation and has trouble with data containing embedded nulls (whereas perl does not)). Apologies to folks (such as myself :) who tire of language wars though. If the original poster wanted to run Rexx I say let them. Peter Prymmer (Someone who just spent a great deal of time porting perl to MVS recently) From jonathan at iastate.edu Wed Jan 28 17:47:29 1998 From: jonathan at iastate.edu (Jon Kavanaugh) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Corvus PC cards In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:50:01." <3.0.1.16.19980128165001.329fa79c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <9801282347.AA10872@eng3.iastate.edu> Joe, I believe the Corvus PC Cards you have are for either an external hard drive (either stand alone or networked). I have a Corvus Hard Drive hooked up to an Apple IIe. I have a Corvus Hard Drive for a PC (at least I think its for a PC), but I don't have a controller card. I'd offer to ship the drive to you for shipping cost only, but I don't know the condition of the drive and it weighs 30-40 lbs. Jonathan Kavanaugh jonathan@iastate.edu From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 28 18:29:14 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Apple II GS Message-ID: <199801290048.QAA26690@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > I'll take it! Who said dat? manney@nwohio.com "Why are manhole covers round?" From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 28 18:40:15 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Monitor woes Message-ID: <199801290048.QAA29547@mxu3.u.washington.edu> >My understading is that this machine needs no reference disks, but > >can I use a hard drive > 20MB? It never mentions it on IBM's site. I successfully installed a 3 1/2" ST-506/412 drive (a Seagate, IIRC), which worked OK. Has to be 3 1/2" because it fits in the floppy bay. You have to find a controller card which has the power output because the floppies take power off the drive cable. I think you could bodge it to take a hardcard in one of the expansion slots. manney The Model 25 takes the cake for the world's most stupidly designed PC -- and the hardest to work on. From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 28 20:15:44 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: CoCo 2 & 3 max speed In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980128182607.006a8828@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128201544.00a1eb30@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw John Higginbotham typed: >Anyone know right off hand what the highest supported baud rate is for the >RS-232 on a CoCo 2 or CoCo 3? Asking for a friend who thinks she can use a >9600 baud external modem on it. (!) Supported or possible??? There's a big difference, you know! ;-) Supported IIRC is only 300 (maybe 600) bps for the CoCo2, and 1200 for the CoCo3. I do remember many ads (adverts for our British friends, IIRC) claiming flawless 1200 (coco1/2) and 2400 (coco3) bps speed for a CoCo. Again, IIRC I heard rumors of someone actually getting 9600 bps thru the bitbanger, but I'm sure that's will all interrupts fully disabled in RSDOS with a memory-to-port (or vise-versa) transfer only -- no other functions like video, disk or anything else so you were xferring totally blind. This may also have been with a (Hitachi) 63C09* instead of a 6809, but I'm not sure. The place to ask would be the newsgroup news://bit.listserv.coco -- if you don't have access to that group, just let me know. I'm subscribed to an e-mail gateway to the list, so I can forward anything you need. HTH, "Merch" * Readers Digest version for those who don't know: Moto was looking for a 2nd source for their star 8-bit CPU at one point and hired Hitachi to build them as well -- but Hitachi did too good of a job. They doubled the accumulators, and like (A & B) = the D register, the other two 8-bit regs could be used in tandem for a 16-bit... and all four could be used in a limited fashion as a 32-bit register. Also, even on straight Moto 6809 code, once the CPU is put in 6309 mode, most people see a 15-20% overall increase in execution speed... there's even a modified version of OS-9 just for the Hitachi -- called NitrOS-9. Alas, I don't have anything like that, but from what I hear a NitrOS box is *fast*! All plug-for-plug compatible with our beloved Moto6809. -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 28 20:35:25 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Corvus PC cards In-Reply-To: <9801282347.AA10872@eng3.iastate.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980128203525.39bfb9c6@intellistar.net> At 05:47 PM 1/28/98 CST, you wrote: >Joe, > >I believe the Corvus PC Cards you have are for either an external hard >drive (either stand alone or networked). I have a Corvus Hard Drive >hooked up to an Apple IIe. I have a Corvus Hard Drive for a PC (at >least I think its for a PC), but I don't have a controller card. I'd >offer to ship the drive to you for shipping cost only, but I don't know >the condition of the drive and it weighs 30-40 lbs. > >Jonathan Kavanaugh >jonathan@iastate.edu > >the condition of the drive and it weighs 30-40 lbs. Yeah and probably only 5 Mb! I've heard of those drives but I don't think this is for a drive. The only connector on it is a three pin plug that is accessable through a hole in the metal bracket. There is one 20 pin DIP socket that might be used for a connector but it looks like it's for an IC. Thanks anyway, Joe From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Jan 28 14:48:10 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: CoCo 2 & 3 max speed In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980128201544.00a1eb30@mail.northernway.net> References: <3.0.32.19980128182607.006a8828@netpath.net> Message-ID: <199801290142.UAA18561@mail.cgocable.net> > ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw John Higginbotham typed: > Snip! > > Supported or possible??? There's a big difference, you know! ;-) > > Supported IIRC is only 300 (maybe 600) bps for the CoCo2, and 1200 for the > CoCo3. I do remember many ads (adverts for our British friends, IIRC) > claiming flawless 1200 (coco1/2) and 2400 (coco3) bps speed for a CoCo. > Again, IIRC I heard rumors of someone actually getting 9600 bps thru the > bitbanger, but I'm sure that's will all interrupts fully disabled in RSDOS > with a memory-to-port (or vise-versa) transfer only -- no other functions > like video, disk or anything else so you were xferring totally blind. True, the major problem was in how much data 8bit CPU can move without falling back. Big snip! > All plug-for-plug compatible with our beloved Moto6809. > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From william at ans.net Wed Jan 28 19:56:23 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 308 In-Reply-To: <34CF6D06.E29FB02F@hf.intel.com> Message-ID: > I wonder what a more recent > water-cooled machine (e.g. 3090) weighs, the TCU's (thermal conduction > units) can't be very light. The actual TCMs are pretty light - only maybe a pound or two a piece (they are just aluminum, ceramic, and helium (!). The backplanes are heavy, especially with the cold plates in the equation. In total, however, the older processors (3081, for example), are mostly air inside. A fully decked out 3081 CPU only has twenty or so of the modules. Most of the weight is the frame and sheet metal. The DASDs (disks), on the other hand, are very heavy. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Wed Jan 28 20:37:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Corvus PC cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980128165001.329fa79c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > I have several old 8 bit PC cards that are marked "Corvus systems" and "PC > Bus Transporter". Does anyone know what they're for? The Corvus card is most likely a hard drive controller. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From mallison at konnections.com Wed Jan 28 20:58:45 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: Message-ID: <34CFF064.5B0B@konnections.com> Zane, I _THINK_ that there was a version of REXX for every version of OS/2, though not included in the basic package. REXX mirated, I believe from mainframes and the porting over to OS/2 and DOS was an outgrowth of that popularity. I'm sure there was at least REXX interpreters for 8086s and up... -Mike Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was > >something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I > >haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a > >Compaq 386? An IBM AT? > > I know OS/2 has had it since at least version 2, can't remember if it was > in 1.3 > > The Amiga also has ARexx, not sure how long, but I've an Amiga OS 3.1 > manual on it. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 28 21:12:54 1998 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Apple II GS Message-ID: <01bd2c63$ca8043f0$1c69420c@magnum> I'll take it too -----Original Message----- From: PG Manney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Apple II GS > >> I'll take it! > >Who said dat? > >manney@nwohio.com >"Why are manhole covers round?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Auradon. Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From mallison at konnections.com Wed Jan 28 21:06:44 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Z280 systems References: <199801280230.VAA04761@golden.net> Message-ID: <34CFF244.5F3C@konnections.com> Some of you may remember one of the last issues of SuperMicro magazine had a Z280 S-100 boards on the cover and a nice article about the board and a system using the board, as I recall. Does anyone have an idea where I could find or look for a Z280 based system, either ZCPM, or???. And either single or multiple processors. My goal would be to have a fairly complete system, however I think that would be possible from most any S-100 components, if one had the CPU. Does anyone still manufature S-100 stuff or its replacement Bus, which I don't recall??? Or Z280 Z380 VME systems. I guess I better stop there or I'll leave the realm of "classics" thans, Mike From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 28 21:06:08 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: GRiD Server Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980128220430.006a8160@netpath.net> Anyone ever hear of a GRiD Server? Want info/specs/etc. Also, if anyone out there has a GRiD Compass 11xx, I will trade a GRiDCASE 3 for it. Oh, either that, or will trade for an external floppy for the GRiD 1535exp. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jan 28 20:15:41 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Apple II GS Message-ID: <01bd2c5b$cc0d1f20$LocalHost@hotze> Two things: One, the person that said that appeared as the "from" on the e-mail. ClassicCmp appears as the "to." >"Why are manhole covers round?" So that you can put them in any direction, without worrying about turning to fit it in. Tim D. Hotze From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Wed Jan 28 21:25:58 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Apple II GS Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980128192558.00946880@mail.wfi-inc.com> At 05:15 AM 1/29/98 +0300, you wrote: >Two things: One, the person that said that appeared as the "from" on the >e-mail. ClassicCmp appears as the "to." >>"Why are manhole covers round?" >So that you can put them in any direction, without worrying about turning to >fit it in. > Tim D. Hotze > > Actually, it's the only shape that won't let them fall through the hole, no matter which way you turn it.... From mallison at konnections.com Wed Jan 28 21:31:32 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Hardware Ref Page Message-ID: <34CFF814.2181@konnections.com> This looks like a good place for drive and controller info... David Given wrote: > > When dealing with old drives, I find the following site invaluable: > http://theref.c3d.rl.af.mil/ > > It has controller and drive info for just about every drive under the sun > (except the *really* wierd thing in my T3100). Very handy. > > David Given > dg@freeyellow.com From jonathan at iastate.edu Wed Jan 28 21:37:00 1998 From: jonathan at iastate.edu (Jon Kavanaugh) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Corvus PC cards In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:35:25." <3.0.1.16.19980128203525.39bfb9c6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <9801290337.AA29324@eng3.iastate.edu> Joe, If the Corvus PC Card has a 3 pin connector, I believe it is a corvus network card which allows several computers to share the same corvus hard drive or something like that. I have a non-functional Corvus Network box which I scraped for chips. I'm afraid that's all the info I have. Jonathan jonathan@iastate.edu From mallison at konnections.com Wed Jan 28 21:46:08 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <9800288860.AA886037775@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <34CFFB80.78FC@konnections.com> OS/2 Warp was 386, as I recall. 2.1, I can't remember, 1.2 was 286. You might need a 386 for the Program Manager, But I don't recall. I still have copies of 2.1 and 1.2, if you need to know.... -Mike Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > >REXX on a PC? I think I have heard (very dimly) of this (there was > > >something called REXX-88 or some such name when I was at IBM) but I > > >haven't used REXX for years! What does it run on? Will it run on a > > >Compaq 386? An IBM AT? > > You can probably find REXX in a lot of places... There's even a shareware > > version on Macintosh. And if there's an old IBM programming language on a > > Mac, it's almost definitley on a lot of other platforms. Did REXX start on > > the IBM mini/mainframes or is it from somewhere else? Has anyone seen a > > copy of Cobol for Mac? MicroFocus used to make it, but it seems the Cobol > > crowd has abondoned Macintosh... > > Thanks everyone for their help. I shall sometime consider PC-DOS with > REXX as an environment for my AT or possibly one of my Compaqs... Am I > right in thinking that OS/2 _won't_ run on an AT? > > ORIGINS OF REXX > > I met REXX in what I believe to be its native habitat - as the macro > language for VM/CMS running on an IBM 370 descendant mainframe. It > replaced a language called EXEC2, whose main distinguishing feature was > % signs everywhere (although I can't remember what they meant). This in > turn replaced a language called (you guessed it) EXEC. REXX is/was > quite a nice language to use, but some features rendered it unsuitable > for serious programming - numbers, for example, are stored as strings of > digits in the character code of the machine you are using... > > Philip. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 28 21:40:22 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: GRiD Server Message-ID: <9699f6ab.34cffa29@aol.com> I've got an 1129, but im keeping it. anyone know of a way of clearing the passwoid? when i choose various apps from the menus, it prompts for one and after i key in the wrong one, it brings me back tothe initial menu. i cannot get into anything. david In a message dated 98-01-28 22:16:08 EST, you write: << Anyone ever hear of a GRiD Server? Want info/specs/etc. Also, if anyone out there has a GRiD Compass 11xx, I will trade a GRiDCASE 3 for it. Oh, either that, or will trade for an external floppy for the GRiD 1535exp. >> From mallison at konnections.com Wed Jan 28 22:06:06 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Computone Port Card Message-ID: <34D0002E.B40@konnections.com> I have a Computone 4(?) port card. long 16 bit ISA bus with 4 RJ11 ports and 2 RJ45 ports. its a 1989 Computone with some proms marked "AT6S" Looks like it was manu'd in 7/92 Anyone have any ideas or specs? THeres 2 Z0853006PSCs and an AM8530H, and a NEC D70216L-8 V50 Need info on real purpose and uses, jumpers and switches, thanks Mike From edhaack at ionet.net Wed Jan 28 22:05:49 1998 From: edhaack at ionet.net (Ed Haack) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Unsubscribing from this listserver... Message-ID: <000e01bd2c6b$31d83e20$67c9ce9d@numbersix.thevillage.com> I understand that these messages are a major bother, but I have a problem. What is the address to send the "unsubscribe" email to? I tried using one of the search engines, and came up with this URL: http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp/join.html However, this link appears to not be working... and for some time (I would not have simply gone to this site for one or two days, and reported it down... but it's been two weeks.) Can anyone help me? You're direct email response is VERY welcome... and appreciated. - Ed (edhaack@ionet.net) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980128/cc824f9e/attachment.html From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jan 28 22:14:30 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: GRiD Server Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980128231407.006e6aac@netpath.net> At 10:40 PM 1/28/98 EST, you wrote: >I've got an 1129, but im keeping it. anyone know of a way of clearing the >passwoid? when i choose various apps from the menus, it prompts for one and >after i key in the wrong one, it brings me back tothe initial menu. i cannot >get into anything. Aw, c'mon! Wouldn't you rather have a password free GRiDCase 3? :) I'd say disconnect the CMOS battery, but I don't think they have a CMOS setup. :) The 1100 I had was running Dos 2.11, but the GRiDCASE 3 runs GRiD-OS or MS-DOS 2.11, and no passwords on the GRiD-OS apps. This is one problem that I see all the time, either passwords set on the GRiD-OS apps, password set on setup, or just a password on startup. (You can tell these were gov't contract machines.) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 28 23:49:45 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: References: <199801262031.NAA15390@konnections.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128234945.009b3320@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Sam Ismail typed: >ANYHOW.... [nip] >I also found some armed forces computer coursework manuals which are >pretty interesting. I found one called _Introduction to Programming in >BASIC_ from a Navy traing course. I also found a manual on programming in >(I forget which language) on a CDC Cyber mainframe. Both of these are >from the late 70s. Time for a quick history lesson... (and yes, it's on-topic.) My Uncle is a lifer in the Navy (just now retiring - 28 years) and he was one of the highest ranking NCO's in the entire Navy (spent 14 years at E-9) and the first time I'd ever been to his house was when I was 8 years old (in '75)... He'd hand-built a little "computer" that (while unimpressive to "normal" people) converted binary to digital and back, and displayed everything on a little 8# 7-segment calculator display... it was all done with SSI chips. He was just finishing up building it when we arrived, and had gotten it working. I recall (and this is amazing for a kid of 8) that the rest of my family was "That's cool, Ed... How do you get to Disneyworld?" but I was "Wow... how does that work?" and my uncle showed me. 20 minutes later, I learned everything about it, including how to convert binary to decimal and back. I was hooked. He was amazed. He showed me the schematic he drew, and I thought they were awesome, and I wanted nothing more than to build something like that... and I've not changed since. When we left Florida, my uncle gave me a gift: some graph paper and colored markers like he'd used to draw his plans. I "drew plans" all the way back to Upper Michigan, and never looked back. Well, a few years after, he visited us in Michigan and asked me if I was still serious about computers. I emphatically said "Yes" so he gave me 4 of his old Navy course books from the early 70's -- Mathmatics Volumes 1, 2, and 3; and "Digital Computer Basics"... When I did all the tests in Math Vol. 1 and most of the tests in Vol. 2 without needing to read the books, he was amazed. He worked with me the entire week he was in Michigan to finish Vol. 2, and I finished Vol. 3 & DCB on my own. That man did more to nuture my interest in computers than the rest of my family combined, and those books (which I still have -- they're in my library) are worth more to me than any other book I own. Just this past year, my wife's uncle was throwing out some "old books" when he decided I might just like them, so he dropped them off at our house. Wouldn't you know it, but there was a Navy coursebook in "Introduction to Programming in BASIC" in perfect shape, revised in 1983. Even tho I never even owned a computer until 1985, the seeds of interest had been planted a decade before. Sam, thank you for reminding me of that wonderful piece of my past. Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jan 28 23:52:24 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Apple II GS In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980128192558.00946880@mail.wfi-inc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128235224.009b35d0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Aaron Christopher Finney typed: >At 05:15 AM 1/29/98 +0300, you wrote: >>Two things: One, the person that said that appeared as the "from" on the >>e-mail. ClassicCmp appears as the "to." >>>"Why are manhole covers round?" >>So that you can put them in any direction, without worrying about turning to >>fit it in. >> Tim D. Hotze > >Actually, it's the only shape that won't let them fall through the hole, no >matter which way you turn it.... Funny, I thought it was because the *manholes* were round, too!!! ;-) "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 28 23:06:16 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Corvus PC cards In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:35:25 References: <3.0.1.16.19980128203525.39bfb9c6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199801290506.VAA03279@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > I've heard of those drives but I don't think this is for a drive. The > only connector on it is a three pin plug that is accessable through a hole > in the metal bracket. There is one 20 pin DIP socket that might be used > for a connector but it looks like it's for an IC. This is an Omninet interface. 1Mbit/s RS-422 twisted-pair bus networking. The interfaces for the Apple ][ (a card) and Corvus Concept (built-in) have 6801s to actually do the work of moving packets between the computer and the Omninet. I'm not sure if that's what is missing from your 20 pin DIP socket or if it was intended to hold a BIOS extension ROM to let the PC boot over Omninet. -Frank McConnell From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 28 23:51:56 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <7ed7b02c.34d018fe@aol.com> I looked in my never used copy of os2 version 1.3 standard edition and found no mention of rexx so maybe it arrived in version 2.x but i'm not opening my shrinkwrapped version to find out! minimum requirements for 1.3 are a 286, 2meg, and 12 meg of hdd space. david In a message dated 98-01-28 23:22:35 EST, you write: << OS/2 Warp was 386, as I recall. 2.1, I can't remember, 1.2 was 286. You might need a 386 for the Program Manager, But I don't recall. I still have copies of 2.1 and 1.2, if you need to know.... -Mike Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > >REXX on a PC? >> From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Thu Jan 29 00:13:59 1998 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: New Zealander needs ASR-33 info Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128221359.00e48730@mail.wizards.net> I got an E-mail from a fellow in New Zealand (don@daedalus.co.nz) who needs info on the 20ma current loop hookup used in the old ASR-33 Teletype machines. If anyone on here can help, please respond to him directly. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 29 00:27:26 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980128234945.009b3320@mail.northernway.net> References: <199801262031.NAA15390@konnections.com> Message-ID: >Just this past year, my wife's uncle was throwing out some "old books" when >he decided I might just like them, so he dropped them off at our house. >Wouldn't you know it, but there was a Navy coursebook in "Introduction to >Programming in BASIC" in perfect shape, revised in 1983. Well, that is one of three, there is also one on COBOL, and another on FORTRAN. I know I did all three while I was an Electrician in the Navy in '88. It's when I found out the Navy had a Rate that did nothing but computers. In '90 I switched Rates to Data Processing Technician, in late '96 I got out as a DP1(SW). Amazingly I taught myself enough while in the Navy to get a good job, their computer courses for the most part are totally pathetic, only one was even slightly challenging. The 3&2 is pretty cool, especially if you can get an older copy than I've got. The older copies have a bunch of IBM/360 stuff in it. The Modern DP3 manual was pretty good. Don't really remember the modern DP2 manuals (they had two in the matter of a couple years), the DP1&C book is basically all military related, not computer related, though it does have a little old Mainframe stuff. Other manuals that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware) manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying core memory for a test he had to take. I wish I had a set of these. The NEETS modules are also good, there is something like 23 of them. They are on Electricity and Electronics, including how to use test equipment. Then of course there are all the course materials I collected over the years, but except for the stuff for the Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframes that's all garbage. As of sometime last year there are no longer Rates known as "Data Processing Technician", or "Data Systems Technician". At least that was the plan when I got out, one of the reasons I got out. All the Data Processing Tech's were being converted to Radiomen, go figure. Oh, well, I make about 3x what I did in the Military, and I even get to come home at night :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 29 00:24:27 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:32 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <01bd2c7e$8cbc6420$LocalHost@hotze> >OS/2 Warp was 386, as I recall. 2.1, I can't remember, 1.2 was 286. >You might need a 386 for the Program Manager, But I don't recall. I >still have copies of 2.1 and 1.2, if you need to know.... Well, the phrase is OS/2 Warp IS, they're still selling it, *and* making a new version, hopefully this one will be MS compatible, which gave IBM the advantage over Windows 3.1 OS/2 Warp is a strange 32-bit OS, it RECOMMENDS a 386 or better, but doesn't REQUIRE a 386 or better. BTW, if no one else wants it, can I have the OS/2 2.1? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 01:32:34 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions References: <3.0.32.19980128182251.006e4834@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34D03092.2FDA@konnections.com> When you think of "Classic" computers, what comes to mind? In our young days, when many of us DREAMED of owning computers, or at least something more than Sinclairs, those things were unattainable, like the Compaq Portable in the ferry terminal. These were things we dreamed about. Or, they were the stuff we cut our teeth on, or drooled over because they were $20,000 or $250,000 machines. Now we can own one. I couldn't afford a NeXT when they were 10,000 or 3,000 dollars, but they work just as good now that they're $350. And the luster is still there... Sure, Pentiums will never be collectors, but maybe the Sparcs will, or the Silicon Graphics. Or the day the Cray is turned upside down in the dumpster at the local Vincent De Pauls... I mean, no one wants a "Tennessee Tom" 8086, but an IBM XT, I mean really, that was the first,, sorta. The Apple. It's not a Mac or A NeXT, but it was the first. And the truely amazing thing isn't that they are old, or quaint toys, but that they're just as useful now. Dbase II is still a good program. I can still run WP4.2 on a PC, Aztech C still creates worthwhile programs. The cool thing and the weird thing is that Most kids/families can almost obtain the Pentium and it's a family goal much like a washing machine. Who's going to crave one (besides us, cause we are right now... ; -> . Anyway... Mike John Higginbotham wrote: > > > Not anymore. There's no way all these Pentium systems out today will ever > be worth anything, at least not in 13 years, IMHO. Maybe in about 30 years, > when most have been destroyed will they be truly worth something as an > classic. > > -John Higginbotham- > -limbo.netpath.net- From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 29 01:35:05 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: New Acquisitions References: <01bd2c7e$8cbc6420$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <34D03129.164C61AE@rain.org> I have been a bit slack for the past 6 weeks or so due to an unexpected quintuple bypass in early December. But things are now getting back to normal and I am again picking up machines. On the day I was released from the hospital, the graveyard shift nurse offered me the opportunity to use the Internet connection at the nurses station, and of course I gratefully accepted. In the process of introducing her to ebay, I noticed a coin operated Heart Rate Monitor for sale. I showed her how to bid using that as the example, and I ended up buying it for $31 plus shipping. Turns out that it was manufactured by Golden Circle Marketing Co. in Milan, Tn. and was made somewhere around 1981 judging by the code dates on the chips. If anyone just happens to have the schematics for the unit, I would be most interested. It doesn't have a processor on it, and appears to be a collection of mostly SSI chips. Shouldn't be too hard to draw out the schematic, but I would prefer to pass on that particular opportunity :). The newest acquisitions include an Atari Portfolio with several RAM cartridges and manual, an HP75D along with its docking station, and a Toshiba T-1000 laptop. I also received from a friend of mine a Zeneth SuperSport and an Epson Equity LT, both with carrying cases. In early December before the surgery, a friend acquired and gave me a Memotech MTX512 almost new n the box. Last night, another friend provided me with a Timex 1000 but I haven't had the time to take a look at it yet. The above computers were all provided at no charge. One of the really neat acquisitions I bought from a local thrift store was a Max Steele Robot, including manuals, that seems to work just fine! In checking out the web, it appears to have a 65C?? processor and was built around 1983 or so. Apparently, there were only about 5000 built. Had to pay $10 for that unit. Last week, I finally made a connection with someone (after about two months) to buy an HP 86 and HP 87 with a number of modules, an external floppy disk, and assorted documentation at $75. Haven't fired it up yet, but they are neat looking machines! From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 01:55:41 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <7ed7b02c.34d018fe@aol.com> Message-ID: <34D035FD.30B@konnections.com> I'm almost POS you could get REXX for 1.2 on, but it was an addition, or just a package. Whoever sold the PC version had ads with Playing card royalty, you know Jack & King cartoon figures... -Mike SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > I looked in my never used copy of os2 version 1.3 standard edition and found > no mention of rexx so maybe it arrived in version 2.x but i'm not opening my > shrinkwrapped version to find out! minimum requirements for 1.3 are a 286, > 2meg, and 12 meg of hdd space. > > david > > In a message dated 98-01-28 23:22:35 EST, you write: > > << OS/2 Warp was 386, as I recall. 2.1, I can't remember, 1.2 was 286. > You might need a 386 for the Program Manager, But I don't recall. I > still have copies of 2.1 and 1.2, if you need to know.... > > -Mike > > Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > > > >REXX on a PC? >> From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 02:13:06 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <01bd2c7e$8cbc6420$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <34D03A12.6CF4@konnections.com> Gee, I was hoping for a Turbo Prolog trade.....Whatcha got??? .,. v -Mike Hotze wrote: > BTW, if no one else wants it, can I have the OS/2 2.1? > Thanks, > > Tim D. Hotze From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 02:17:54 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: x286emu Message-ID: <34D03B32.72E@konnections.com> What is "x286emu" on Linux? I've seen it in directories, but I'll be damned if it does anything yet. No references I've seen and no hits on Web search engines. Does it exist by itself, or is it part of a library for another program?? Or...???? Thanks, -Mike Allison From alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jan 29 04:28:30 1998 From: alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: x286emu In-Reply-To: <34D03B32.72E@konnections.com> from "Mike Allison" at Jan 29, 98 01:17:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 88 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980129/18b65306/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 29 03:40:12 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <01bd2c99$e56ebc60$9a60bcc1@hotze> I don't even know what Turbo Prolog is. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Mike Allison To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 11:11 AM Subject: Re: Development, round II >Gee, I was hoping for a Turbo Prolog trade.....Whatcha got??? > >.,. > v > >-Mike > > > >Hotze wrote: > >> BTW, if no one else wants it, can I have the OS/2 2.1? >> Thanks, >> >> Tim D. Hotze From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jan 29 05:35:59 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Apple II GS Message-ID: <01bd2caa$1204aa40$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I originally said it, but your email dosnt work manny. -----Original Message----- From: PG Manney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 6:49 PM Subject: Re: Apple II GS > >> I'll take it! > >Who said dat? > >manney@nwohio.com >"Why are manhole covers round?" > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Jan 29 07:06:44 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9800298861.AA886108334@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk > typed: > > [nip about REXX] > > >REXX is/was > >quite a nice language to use, but some features rendered it unsuitable > >for serious programming - numbers, for example, are stored as strings of > >digits in the character code of the machine you are using... > > Uh, Sir Philip? > > Maybe there are other reasons that your statement of unsuitability stands, > but I can think of one programming language that's very handy (& powerful & > serious) which stores it's digits as charcter codes: Perl. From experience > I can tell you that one heckuva lot more stuff gets done with Perl on the > WWW than Java -- and it's a lot easier to pgm. in. Sorry, Roger, I didn't mean to start a language war. I've never used Perl, but I'm told it's good. REXX, like (I think) Perl, is a macro language. It is designed for doing little tasks that don't need lots of computing power. I like REXX - I really enjoyed using it at IBM. But it is an interpreted language - if I was writing a major application I'd use a compiler - and numbers stored as strings are fundamentally slow - I'd use one which stored numbers in a way that is fast to use. But I was being careless. I was actually thinking "number crunching" when I said "serious programming". (NB I _have_ done number crunching in REXX - the potentially infinite precision is very useful!) Philip. PS *** OFF TOPIC - Sam Ismail need read no further :-) *** Manhole covers (and the apertures at the entrances of manholes :-) ) are indeed round because they then won't fall down the hole if you drop them. But other shapes share this property - triangular manholes are quite common over here. Any "Curve of constant diameter" also has this property. Examples of such curves may be found in the 7-sided coins in use in the UK for 50p and 20p P. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Jan 29 07:09:51 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9800298861.AA886108513@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > I looked in my never used copy of os2 version 1.3 standard edition and found > no mention of rexx so maybe it arrived in version 2.x but i'm not opening my > shrinkwrapped version to find out! minimum requirements for 1.3 are a 286, > 2meg, and 12 meg of hdd space. Worth a try then. But am I right in thinking that the AT doesn't implement all the 286 modes properly? I'm sure the XT286 doesn't. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jan 29 09:54:05 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <9800298861.AA886108334@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129095405.00a2d910@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk typed: >I wrote this: >> Uh, Sir Philip? >> >> Maybe there are other reasons that your statement of unsuitability stands, >> but I can think of one programming language that's very handy (& powerful & >> serious) which stores it's digits as charcter codes: Perl. From experience >> I can tell you that one heckuva lot more stuff gets done with Perl on the >> WWW than Java -- and it's a lot easier to pgm. in. > >Sorry, Roger, I didn't mean to start a language war. I've never used >Perl, but I'm told it's good. Uh, I didn't either. Methinks I've worded my statement a little incorrectly. The point I was trying to make was this: Just because a language stores its numbers as strings, doesn't mean it's not a useful programming language. So if your "unusability" index was only because of this fact, then I'd say there's no reason REXX couldn't be used for erstwhile programming. I've had to hack in REXX a ittle bit -- it was some code written to parse / translate two different data formats... and I'm sure the company did it for fear of others tampering with their code - REXX isn't exactly well known in the [blech] WinWorld. (They were running a copy of WinREXX). I tampered with it... they weren't too happy with me. ;-) ISTR the language is fairly easy to understand. :) >REXX, like (I think) Perl, is a macro language. It is designed for >doing little tasks that don't need lots of computing power. I like REXX >- I really enjoyed using it at IBM. But it is an interpreted language - >if I was writing a major application I'd use a compiler - and numbers >stored as strings are fundamentally slow - I'd use one which stored >numbers in a way that is fast to use. A fair amount of programming done in Perl are for small, fast scripts. However, the mailing list software "Majordomo" is written in Perl, as is many, many other large, standalone type programs... Perl is a "JustInTime" compiled program -- it's stored as source code, but when loaded and executed, it's compiled in memory - then run. As such, it's execution time (usually) is slower than C, but is faster than BASIC and I would assume REXX because it's not a fully interpreted language, either. If the program did a lot of report writing and data manipulation, I would most definately use Perl -- some programs are faster than the equivilent C programs because of it's special abilities in this area. However, a number-cruncher program is best done in C or something else which handles numbers more quickly. >But I was being careless. I was actually thinking "number crunching" >when I said "serious programming". (NB I _have_ done number crunching >in REXX - the potentially infinite precision is very useful!) Same with Perl for that -- slow but easy to program; and if the program runs in 10 hours instead of 3 but took 20 minutes to code instead of 10 hours, which is faster??? ;-) (Same reason I still use basic -- familiarity.) See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jan 29 08:42:22 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Corvus PC cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980128203525.39bfb9c6@intellistar.net> References: <9801282347.AA10872@eng3.iastate.edu> Message-ID: <199801291502.JAA20475@onyx.southwind.net> > I've heard of those drives but I don't think this is for a drive. The > only connector on it is a three pin plug that is accessable through a hole > in the metal bracket. There is one 20 pin DIP socket that might be used > for a connector but it looks like it's for an IC. > > Thanks anyway, > > Joe > > Okay, then it's for OmniNet, one of the first networking schemes for micros. The specs say its RS-422 @ 1Megabit/s. Jeff From adam at merlin.net.au Wed Jan 28 10:46:31 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-700 Message-ID: <199801291546.CAA25424@arthur.merlin.net.au> Hi! I just picked up an MZ-721, which is rather neat. Oddly, it loads Basic from tape, which seems fairly unusual for a cassette-based system. Anyway, when I switched it on I got nothing but garbage on the screen, and ning I do seems to change it at all. Shoud I consider this a dead computer, take photos and treasure the manuals? Or is this the sort of think which *may* be repaired, so I shoudl track down someone who fixes these things and get them to look at it. Indeed, is it even worth the effort? I tried to find information on it, but almost everything seems to be in Japanese. :) Thanks heaps, Adam. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 29 09:50:01 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-29 08:44:40 EST, you write: << > I looked in my never used copy of os2 version 1.3 standard edition and found > no mention of rexx so maybe it arrived in version 2.x but i'm not opening my > shrinkwrapped version to find out! minimum requirements for 1.3 are a 286, > 2meg, and 12 meg of hdd space. : Worth a try then. But am I right in thinking that the AT doesn't : implement all the 286 modes properly? I'm sure the XT286 doesn't. >> ...an AT doesnt implement 286 models properly? i dont get it. AT=80286. now, all 286 machines had a limitation about being able to switch from protected mode to real mode and back to protected mode without major work and/or a reboot. the 386 does this all smoothly under software control. it's also my understanding the XT286 is just a regular old 5170 board in a 5160 case. david From cgregory at lrbcg.com Thu Jan 29 10:22:58 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Z280 systems Message-ID: <063f01bd2cd2$761fed00$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> Have you tried Herb Johnson (Dr. S-100) ? He hangs out at comp.os.cpm , but you can reach him via email at hjohnson@pluto.njcc.com If he can't help you, I don't know anyone who can. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 11:06 PM Subject: Z280 systems >Some of you may remember one of the last issues of SuperMicro magazine >had a Z280 S-100 boards on the cover and a nice article about the board >and a system using the board, as I recall. > >Does anyone have an idea where I could find or look for a Z280 based >system, either ZCPM, or???. And either single or multiple processors. > >My goal would be to have a fairly complete system, however I think that >would be possible from most any S-100 components, if one had the CPU. > >Does anyone still manufature S-100 stuff or its replacement Bus, which I >don't recall??? > >Or Z280 Z380 VME systems. > >I guess I better stop there or I'll leave the realm of "classics" > >thans, > >Mike > From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 10:42:38 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: x286emu References: Message-ID: <34D0B17E.6117@konnections.com> I hadn't thought of that. I had emulation on the brain and I hadn't loaded iBCS so it never occured..... Thanks Mike Alan Cox wrote: > > > What is "x286emu" on Linux? > > Its xenix 286 binary emulation and part of iBCS > > Alan From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 29 10:37:41 1998 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Big lot of computers for sale at SwRI In-Reply-To: <199801290802.AAA21731@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Hello all, Southwest Research Institute appears to be divesting itself of a large lot of computer gear by closed bid. Here is the announcement: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MBowen@swri.edu Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 17:07:23 CST Reply-To: Subject: fwd: surplus equipment for sale Southwest Research Institute Mark Bowen Senior Buyer Phone: 210-522-5005 Fax: 210-522-3964 Internet: mbowen@SwRI.edu ------------- Original Text From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jan 29 10:53:13 1998 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: man hole covers In-Reply-To: <01bd2c5b$cc0d1f20$LocalHost@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jan 29, 98 05:15:41 am Message-ID: <199801291653.LAA05254@maddog.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Actually, I think it's so you can't drop them down the hole. John > > >"Why are manhole covers round?" > So that you can put them in any direction, without worrying about turning to > fit it in. > Tim D. Hotze > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 11:04:30 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <9800298861.AA886108513@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <34D0B69E.31CB@konnections.com> Phillip: I'm not sure if I'm getting this right... AT modes are rather software/OS driven. The motherboard integration may have or lack some of the ICs to fully exploit its capabilities, but again, I _THINK_ that's a problem for the sys. 286 Unixs and 286 OS/2 don't have a problem and I think they were written around the original AT. I might be missing your point. Like I said earlier, there are some features to OS/2 that are 386 dependent, but much of the code was written around that. Those, for the most part have to do with windowing and task management/slices. I was unaware the you could run Warp over the 286 but that seems masochistic. If it works, (well), I think IBM missed some good opportunity by not advertising those features. but then again, IBM wanted to sell OS and '386s.... -Mike Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > I looked in my never used copy of os2 version 1.3 standard edition and found > > no mention of rexx so maybe it arrived in version 2.x but i'm not opening my > > shrinkwrapped version to find out! minimum requirements for 1.3 are a 286, > > 2meg, and 12 meg of hdd space. > > Worth a try then. But am I right in thinking that the AT doesn't > implement all the 286 modes properly? I'm sure the XT286 doesn't. From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 29 11:03:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-700 In-Reply-To: <199801291546.CAA25424@arthur.merlin.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 adam@merlin.net.au wrote: > I just picked up an MZ-721, which is rather neat. Oddly, it loads Basic > from tape, which seems fairly unusual for a cassette-based system. > Anyway, when I switched it on I got nothing but garbage on the screen, > and ning I do seems to change it at all. Shoud I consider this a dead > computer, take photos and treasure the manuals? Or is this the sort of > think which *may* be repaired, so I shoudl track down someone who fixes > these things and get them to look at it. Indeed, is it even worth the > effort? No old computer is ever "dead". One shouldn't hold onto them only if they work. The point is to keep them around so that one can at least see and touch them, open them up and look at their circuitry. You can't do that with a picture obviously. All computers will eventually "die", but I'm not about to start burying them all. After all, they don't start decomposing and smelling bad. If you don't want to keep it, e-mail me privately and I'll pay to have it shipped to me and I'll hold onto it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 11:19:39 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: Message-ID: <34D0BA2B.2531@konnections.com> SUPER's right, I do believe. The 286 could switch INTO protected mode, but not out, as I recall. And, there were no virtual '86 modes, as the 386 has in protected mode. Along with a 16MB address space limit against 4GB for 386. But these are just the limitations as to why the 286 can't do 386 code. I don't think theres any reason why the AT couldn't run 286 protected mode programs as it was the standard around which those codes were written. The XT286 seems to bring to mind wome compatibility issues, but I can't remember what they were. Unless the XT286 was build around 86 support chips and bios (just to tap 10 or 12mhz speed for XT programs) in which case you might have some problems. I guess.... -Mike SUPRDAVE wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-29 08:44:40 EST, you write: > > << > I looked in my never used copy of os2 version 1.3 standard edition and > found > > no mention of rexx so maybe it arrived in version 2.x but i'm not opening > my > > shrinkwrapped version to find out! minimum requirements for 1.3 are a 286, > > 2meg, and 12 meg of hdd space. > > : Worth a try then. But am I right in thinking that the AT doesn't > : implement all the 286 modes properly? I'm sure the XT286 doesn't. >> > > ...an AT doesnt implement 286 models properly? i dont get it. AT=80286. now, > all 286 machines had a limitation about being able to switch from protected > mode to real mode and back to protected mode without major work and/or a > reboot. the 386 does this all smoothly under software control. it's also my > understanding the XT286 is just a regular old 5170 board in a 5160 case. > > david From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 11:20:36 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Z280 systems References: <063f01bd2cd2$761fed00$cf27a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: <34D0BA64.382D@konnections.com> Thanks Cliff, I'll give him a shot.... -Mike Cliff Gregory wrote: > > Have you tried Herb Johnson (Dr. S-100) ? He hangs out at comp.os.cpm , but > you can reach him via email at hjohnson@pluto.njcc.com If he can't help > you, I don't know anyone who can. From adam at merlin.net.au Wed Jan 28 12:23:13 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-700 Message-ID: <199801291722.DAA22453@arthur.merlin.net.au> >No old computer is ever "dead". One shouldn't hold onto them only if they >work. The point is to keep them around so that one can at least see and >touch them, open them up and look at their circuitry. You can't do that >with a picture obviously. All computers will eventually "die", but I'm >not about to start burying them all. After all, they don't start >decomposing and smelling bad. If you don't want to keep it, e-mail me >privately and I'll pay to have it shipped to me and I'll hold onto it. Sorry. :) I don't mean to say that I would dump it - simply that as I cannot repair it myself, is it worth paying for someone to do that or would I be better off just keeping it as a record, and looking at the manuals as the main part of the deal (for now). Mostly I like to display my computers as working systems (although I ran out of floorspace months ago), and so prefer working models to broken ones. :) I figure that it is better to have a computer working than broken, so long as I can afford to get it fixed - but I refuse to trash any of my systems, no matter what the problem. And this goes triple for anything that I only have one of anyway! I got very angry at a local dealer recently, for he trashed some 30 microbees 2 weeks before I got there. I had been searching for a Microbee for about 6 months, and he was supposed to sell second-hand 8-bit systems as his business. He said he never liked Microbees anyway. :( I finally got one, but if I could have saved those others I would have been able to offer them (for shipping) to the list. Microbees, for those who haven't heard of them, are neat little cp/m systems that were designed and built in Australia - not many computers were made here, although there were a few, but the Microbee would be one of the two most significant locally made computers. Adam. From william at ans.net Thu Jan 29 11:34:08 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Other manuals that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware) > manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at > sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying > core memory for a test he had to take. What is so odd about this? There is still LOTS of core still in use by the military. Why? Because you can beat the hell out of it. William Donzelli william@ans.net From Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de Thu Jan 29 17:31:24 1998 From: Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Hardware Ref Page References: <34CFF814.2181@konnections.com> Message-ID: <34D1114C.169B@nt-gmbh.de> Mike Allison wrote: > > This looks like a good place for drive and controller info... > > David Given wrote: > > > > > When dealing with old drives, I find the following site invaluable: > > > http://theref.c3d.rl.af.mil/ > > > > It has controller and drive info for just about every drive under the sun > > (except the *really* wierd thing in my T3100). Very handy. > > > > David Given > > dg@freeyellow.com I must laugh... They tell you that a harddiskcontroller say.. SMC OMTI5510 is a harddiskcontroller made by SMC.. I found n usefull information butif serarching the net a lot links to this side. Is it a fake ? I believe so. Greetings... F.Chwolka From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jan 29 11:44:48 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: man hole covers In-Reply-To: <199801291653.LAA05254@maddog.ee.nd.edu> from "John Ott" at Jan 29, 98 11:53:13 am Message-ID: <199801291744.JAA00133@fraser.sfu.ca> > Actually, I think it's so you can't drop them down the hole. This is the reason. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jan 29 12:00:59 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: man hole covers In-Reply-To: <199801291744.JAA00133@fraser.sfu.ca> References: <199801291653.LAA05254@maddog.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129130059.008009a0@netpath.net> Yah. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with this: You see, I'm trying to interface my IBM System/36 with a City of Chicago Manhole Cover. Has anyone ever installed a manhole cover internally in the System/36, or would I be better off going with a parallel or serial interface? I've had no problems before when I connected the System/36 to a series of sewer grates connected in parallel, but the manhole cover does pose quite a problem. Oh, and one more thing: What's the highest storage capacity of most available manhole covers? I know this has been a heated topic of debate on the list before, and I really don't want to start another manhole cover war, so if anyone knows, just send me a private note. Thanks for the help! - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 29 13:59:30 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: man hole covers In-Reply-To: <199801291744.JAA00133@fraser.sfu.ca> References: <199801291653.LAA05254@maddog.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980129135930.47d7c93a@intellistar.net> I hope you're talking about man hole covers that are at least ten years old! Just to keep it appropriate for this list. :-) Joe At 09:44 AM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >> Actually, I think it's so you can't drop them down the hole. > >This is the reason. > >Kevin > > >-- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 29 14:21:32 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980128234945.009b3320@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980129142132.46379eea@intellistar.net> RE: Military course books, I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military, have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they still are. Joe At 10:27 PM 1/28/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Just this past year, my wife's uncle was throwing out some "old books" when >>he decided I might just like them, so he dropped them off at our house. >>Wouldn't you know it, but there was a Navy coursebook in "Introduction to >>Programming in BASIC" in perfect shape, revised in 1983. > >Well, that is one of three, there is also one on COBOL, and another on >FORTRAN. I know I did all three while I was an Electrician in the Navy in >'88. It's when I found out the Navy had a Rate that did nothing but >computers. In '90 I switched Rates to Data Processing Technician, in late >'96 I got out as a DP1(SW). Amazingly I taught myself enough while in the >Navy to get a good job, their computer courses for the most part are >totally pathetic, only one was even slightly challenging. > >The 3&2 is pretty cool, especially if you can get an older copy than I've >got. The older copies have a bunch of IBM/360 stuff in it. The Modern DP3 >manual was pretty good. Don't really remember the modern DP2 manuals (they >had two in the matter of a couple years), the DP1&C book is basically all >military related, not computer related, though it does have a little old >Mainframe stuff. > >Other manuals that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware) >manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at >sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying >core memory for a test he had to take. I wish I had a set of these. > >The NEETS modules are also good, there is something like 23 of them. They >are on Electricity and Electronics, including how to use test equipment. > >Then of course there are all the course materials I collected over the >years, but except for the stuff for the Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframes that's >all garbage. > >As of sometime last year there are no longer Rates known as "Data >Processing Technician", or "Data Systems Technician". At least that was >the plan when I got out, one of the reasons I got out. All the Data >Processing Tech's were being converted to Radiomen, go figure. Oh, well, I >make about 3x what I did in the Military, and I even get to come home at >night :^) > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jan 29 13:30:05 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Big lot of computers for sale at SwRI In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Jan 29, 98 10:37:41 am Message-ID: <199801291930.LAA06233@fraser.sfu.ca> Where is SWRI located? Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From go at ao.com Thu Jan 29 13:34:33 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: Core memory trade? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980129135930.47d7c93a@intellistar.net> References: <199801291744.JAA00133@fraser.sfu.ca> <199801291653.LAA05254@maddog.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <199801291937.LAA02036@office.ao.com> I'm looking to acquire a core stack (operable - not just to look at) for a construction project (don't ask - if it works I'll report to the list later!) By way of trade, I have a genuine S-100 8K core memory (I forget the manufacturer - the only one made for the S-100 as I recall, though.) If there are interested parties, I'll look it up and tell you the maker and serial number. I'd like to trade it for at least a 16K word by 16 bit stack or plane assembly - just the core - I do not need the electronics. The core needs to be around a 1 uS (20 to 30 mil?) variety and also needs to be 3d (X-Y + sense + inhibit) or four-wire design. I prefer a "stack" or "cube" design, but a planar layout is ok, too. For information, the S-100 core is planar and some of the smallest and fastest core I've seen. It is mounted on a single (fairly thick) S-100 card, with electronics and I believe it to be in working order. (I actually *used* one of these types of cards many years ago on a building HVAC management system that needed "nonvolatility" but the ability to read/write while operating.) It ran without hitch on a 4 mhz Z80 Cromemco system. The unit I'm offering to trade came from a surplus electronics place and I have not (yet) tried it to see if it works. It was lovingly packed in bubble wrap, so I assume the original seller thought better than to just toss into the "heap." Please reply by private email. Thanks. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jan 29 14:17:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:33 2005 Subject: NEC Powermate SX/20 Message-ID: <19980129201716.17639.qmail@hotmail.com> I need the CMOS setup program for the Powermate SX/20; does anyone have it? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 29 15:21:08 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-700 In-Reply-To: <199801291546.CAA25424@arthur.merlin.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980129152108.4fcf6980@intellistar.net> Sounds like it's not reading the bootstrap ROM properly. Open it up and reseat the ICs in it. Joe At 02:16 AM 1/29/98 +0930, you wrote: >Hi! > >I just picked up an MZ-721, which is rather neat. Oddly, it loads Basic >from tape, which seems fairly unusual for a cassette-based system. >Anyway, when I switched it on I got nothing but garbage on the screen, >and ning I do seems to change it at all. Shoud I consider this a dead >computer, take photos and treasure the manuals? Or is this the sort of >think which *may* be repaired, so I shoudl track down someone who fixes >these things and get them to look at it. Indeed, is it even worth the >effort? > >I tried to find information on it, but almost everything seems to be in >Japanese. :) > >Thanks heaps, > >Adam. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 29 15:36:47 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Core memory trade? In-Reply-To: <199801291937.LAA02036@office.ao.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980129135930.47d7c93a@intellistar.net> <199801291744.JAA00133@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980129153647.50af767a@intellistar.net> Gary, A S-100 core memory! I've never heard of one before. Wish I had a 16K unit to swap. I'd love to have your's for my Altair. Joe At 11:34 AM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >I'm looking to acquire a core stack (operable - not just to look at) >for a construction project (don't ask - if it works I'll report to >the list later!) By way of trade, I have a genuine S-100 8K core >memory (I forget the manufacturer - the only one made for the S-100 >as I recall, though.) If there are interested parties, I'll look it >up and tell you the maker and serial number. > >I'd like to trade it for at least a 16K word by 16 bit stack or >plane assembly - just the core - I do not need the electronics. >The core needs to be around a 1 uS (20 to 30 mil?) variety and >also needs to be 3d (X-Y + sense + inhibit) or four-wire >design. I prefer a "stack" or "cube" design, but a planar >layout is ok, too. > >For information, the S-100 core is planar and some of the smallest >and fastest core I've seen. It is mounted on a single (fairly >thick) S-100 card, with electronics and I believe it to be in working >order. (I actually *used* one of these types of cards many years >ago on a building HVAC management system that needed "nonvolatility" >but the ability to read/write while operating.) It ran without hitch >on a 4 mhz Z80 Cromemco system. The unit I'm offering to trade came >from a surplus electronics place and I have not (yet) tried it to see >if it works. It was lovingly packed in bubble wrap, so I assume the >original seller thought better than to just toss into the "heap." > >Please reply by private email. > >Thanks. > > > From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Thu Jan 29 15:14:56 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4 help needed Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980129131456.00957eb0@mail.wfi-inc.com> Kaypro 4 question.... I just picked up one of these bad boys from a thrift for $2.95 (my first Kaypro) but I'm not sure that it's feeling so good. I don't have a boot disk for it, and when I power it on (it does power, that's a good sign) it says ," Please place your diskette into drive A." The floppy never spins down, and putting a CP/M booter in from another machine doesn't seem to generate any kind of activity whatsoever. Is this normal behaviour, and I just need a boot disk? BTW, does anyone know where I can get a boot disk for it? Thanks, Aaron From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jan 29 15:13:10 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: RD53 problem In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 28, 98 02:22:50 am Message-ID: <199801292113.NAA19100@fraser.sfu.ca> > Isn't that the standard failure mode of the RD53 (aka the Micropolis > 1300-series)? The head actuator sticks, and the drive can't find the > right servo tracks when it spins up... Or it could be a weak brake solenoid. This is easily fixed as well. I had a sick RD53 and this was the reason - it'd been working for over a year after moving the brake solenoid back a bit. The brake was not retracting far enough to completely clear the motor spindle assembly. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From haleyk at okstate.edu Thu Jan 29 14:25:32 1998 From: haleyk at okstate.edu (haleyk@okstate.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Big lot of computers for sale at SwRI In-Reply-To: <199801291930.LAA06233@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Would that be the Southwestern Research Institute in San Antonio, Tx? ***** haleyk@okstate.edu ***** ***** ***** ends. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 29 17:03:43 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: NEC Powermate SX/20 In-Reply-To: <19980129201716.17639.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980129170343.4b87a60c@intellistar.net> I have the setup disks for a Prolinea 3/25s. I don't know if they're the same or not. Joe At 12:17 PM 1/29/98 PST, you wrote: >I need the CMOS setup program for the Powermate SX/20; does anyone have >it? > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 29 17:24:44 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Big lot of computers for sale at SwRI In-Reply-To: References: <199801291930.LAA06233@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980129172444.1ce70134@intellistar.net> At 03:25 PM 1/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >Would that be the Southwestern Research Institute in >San Antonio, Tx? Yes. Joe > >***** haleyk@okstate.edu ***** ***** ***** ends. > > > From adam at merlin.net.au Wed Jan 28 17:50:28 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Pile of computers in Australia Message-ID: <199801292249.JAA13872@arthur.merlin.net.au> Hi! Recently I tried advertising for obsolete computers in a national computer trading magazine, and it has paid off well. But I just got a phone call today regarding an old Smelter near Mt Gambier in South Australia. Apparantly they had a huge pile of old computer equipment, and they went through and sold off the relativly new stuff. What they have left is a whole lot of old stuff (around 15 years+) includig a huge number of PCs and XTs, XT laptops, terminals, a mainframe, "a hard-drive as big as a computer", terminals, and, presumably, a volume of non-dos stuff. The guy I talked to has no idea what it all is, just that they want to get rid of it really cheap. It's too much for me to handle on my own, and it certainly is nowhere near where I live - would anyone else be at all interested too? Adam From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 28 19:41:18 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Shareware Frogger Available Message-ID: <199801292250.OAA00495@mxu1.u.washington.edu> We were discussing Frogger a month or so ago. I've found a shareware (DOS) version available. If anyone misses it as much as I, it's at http://users.deltanet.com/users/phixus/kgames/rof.html along with other classic arcade games. Registration is $10 manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jan 28 20:55:04 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer Message-ID: <199801292250.OAA04297@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > I've got the Techrefs in front of me (PC, and PC/XT) > > The PC motherboard schematics show that all 5 expansion slots are wired > in parallel. There's nothing odd about any of them. H'm. I use third-party books. Suppose if I wrote the author they'd put out an updated edition? > > The schematics for both versions of the XT motherboard (64K-256K and > > FWIW, I've run a variety of cards in XT slot 8 and PC slot 5 with no > > problems. > > On clones, sure. But I have a genuine IBM PC/XT on my desk and the > built-from-a-kit 8255 card wouldn't work in slot 8 without a little extra > logic (which I made from unused gates on the card). Nope. Real true-blues. Maybe it gets more tolerant with time? manney From archive at navix.net Thu Jan 29 19:52:50 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Sound Master PC card, etc. References: <9801282347.AA10872@eng3.iastate.edu> <199801291502.JAA20475@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <34D13271.8EB4BF0E@navix.net> 1) Here's an item that I am curious to learn about. I will transpose a written description of this item... I hope it actually falls into the classic computing category. Anyway, it is called the Sound Master PC and it says it is "a total music and sound card.... sound and speech run through a direct memory access (DMA) driven 8-bit digitizer. Sound Master PC incorporates an extra microchip witha three-voice capability, the latestd esign for multi-part music and special effects. Combined sounds go to the built-in stereo amplifier...." Here's what I'm really interested in... "Sound Master PC also has digital joystick ports which accept the 'fun' types of Atari, Commodore, or other game-machine joysticks. ...." "The board fits into any available slot on your PC. Mini stereo-speaker jack and dual joystick ports are accessibe through the rear mounting bracket. The package includes external speakers, plug-in board, instructioons, and a one-year warranty." Does anyone know who might have made this unit? What year? Are the joystick ports really any good? I run a digital joytsick (Atari) through my Printer port.... but this sounds completely different. Feel free to add some input. Oh, how much would 'you' pay for something like this. I have the opportunity to get up to ten of these things and am curious what they're worth. ANyone else want to get in on the deal with me? I also have access to these: 2) Voice Master Digitizer for the IBM, Apple, and Commodore Computers. 3) The Speech Thing-- allows recording sounds through the printer port. 4) C-20 cassettes (10 minutes per side) -- 20 for $6.60. Unused cassettes in unused plastic case-NEW! 5) 1000 tractor-feed mailing labels for $3.95. 6) New 5 1/4" disks 100 for $5.40 (Single-sided, single or double density) 7) 100 Double Sided, Double Density 5.25" for $5.50 -- 8) also new 8" disketes for $1.00 a piece! Let me know on some of this stuff and we can work out a deal. Love to get more info on it all, CORD -- _________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | |-----------------------------------------| | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | | (402) 872- 3272 | |_________________________________________| From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Jan 29 13:00:39 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: NEC Powermate SX/20 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980129170343.4b87a60c@intellistar.net> References: <19980129201716.17639.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199801292354.SAA27934@mail.cgocable.net> Which desktop or notebook? I can access to nec's ftp site for these stuff and send them over by email to yours or you could access www.nec.com directly and d/l yourself? Jason D. PS: I have PowerMate/33i which is cached 386dx 33 and only the setup disk will enable the hi speed/cache setting. Oh, IF you have *DESKTOP* powermate type, I'm most interested in how all in one motherboard connects to all status lights, keyboard/mouse via one ribbon connection to small board looks like? I have this bare board that works 100%. Don't ask me how I did got this way, I picked it up at trift junkyard store. :) Thanks! > I have the setup disks for a Prolinea 3/25s. I don't know if they're the > same or not. > > Joe > > At 12:17 PM 1/29/98 PST, you wrote: > >I need the CMOS setup program for the Powermate SX/20; does anyone have > >it? > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From chemif at mbox.queen.it Thu Jan 29 18:27:24 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Plastic yellowing Message-ID: <199801300027.BAA24850@mbox.queen.it> At 01:41 28/01/98 -0800, Aaron wrote: >Does anyone have a remedy for bad case yellowing? I have the suspicion >that it's a permanent chemical change, but I thought it might be worth a >shot. As I' ve previously said, I found FULCRON from AREXONS (if you can find it there) to be the best in dissolving yellowish from computer plastics (unbeatable against nicotine) All you have to take care is to spray the pure product in a uniform way (=the whole surface omogeneously) and brush it gently, alllowing the whole surface to be in contact with the product.Then rinse: FANTASTIC! Careful! Avoid to spray and let drops come down + rinse without brushing!: where the product drop down, it leaves the surface CLEAN, but the rest still dirty. If you rinse and try to apply the product again (even brushing it accurately) the "clean-shadows-on dirt" will remain! Ciao ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From chemif at mbox.queen.it Thu Jan 29 18:27:33 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Computone Port Card Message-ID: <199801300027.BAA24859@mbox.queen.it> At 21:06 28/01/98 -0700, you wrote: >I have a Computone 4(?) port card. long 16 bit ISA bus with 4 RJ11 >ports and 2 RJ45 ports. >Need info on real purpose and uses, jumpers and switches, thanks I have several Computone still in use. What I can say: They are Multiport card used mainly to hook several tty-devices to a xenix/unix box. Usually these cards have an external multiport (DB25) small box connected. In latest version I thnk they used space-saving RJ's Are you shure they are true RJ11? (or they are DEC RJ with side ?) ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 15:10:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <9800298861.AA886108513@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 29, 98 01:09:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1103 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980129/42a01749/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 13:40:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-700 In-Reply-To: <199801291546.CAA25424@arthur.merlin.net.au> from "adam@merlin.net.au" at Jan 29, 98 02:16:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980129/b5cb00f5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 15:35:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <34D0BA2B.2531@konnections.com> from "Mike Allison" at Jan 29, 98 10:19:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980129/c73aac96/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 29 18:44:55 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: is the list up? Message-ID: <199801300044.AA06140@world.std.com> I have seen a posting from here in a while. Is it just quiet? Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 14:58:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: <34D03092.2FDA@konnections.com> from "Mike Allison" at Jan 29, 98 00:32:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980129/a98f846c/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jan 29 18:55:38 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Ricoh-based laser printers In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 29, 98 09:10:37 pm Message-ID: <9801300055.AA05262@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1198 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980129/2f392b2e/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Thu Jan 29 19:18:47 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: is the list up? In-Reply-To: <199801300044.AA06140@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > I have seen a posting from here in a while. Is it just quiet? There has been a lot of traffic, Allison. Perhaps you should resubscribe. - don From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 29 20:29:18 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Update on finds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129202918.006c5df0@pop3.concentric.net> It's been awhile with the snow and cold I do not get to make all the rounds. But here goes in the last few weeks I a PCjr and keyboard without cable for free; Panasonic model RL-H7000W luggable for free some damage to housing; another HP Thinkjet without power supply; Apple numeric keypad II; 3 Apple extended II keyboards for free; Mac SE/30 M5119 works great for $15; Mac Classic M0420 works great $15; VisionScan scanner model n205 no power supply for it-free; Information Storage Optical Disk drive for free; 3 IBM 3363 units for free; IBM 5144 monitor on a stand uses phono jack hookup only free; several Mac plus kb's and mice for free; Alphacom 42 thermal printer very strange plug on this unit, anyone know how you power this printer; Sun SPAREprinter model QA-6, anyone know how to do a self print test on this unit I can not find any buttons or anything; AMSTRAD 640K PC keyboard in great shape free; Apple modem A9M0300 with power supply free; Apple modem A9M0301 (2400b) missing power supply free; IBM Colorjet printer 3852 model 2 free; GTCO Corp Digi-Pad5 controller blackbox free; houston instrument pad model DT-11;Gulton Industries Recorder TR-711 TAC-59 free;2 Apple PC 5.25 drives A9M0110 can read PC 360k disk free; ColorMonitor IIe free; IBM VGA 8513001 free works great; Apple Imagewriter II A9M0310 free; IBM PS/2 50 with keys not tested yet free; Control Data model 831 needs work free;Wang PC382 not tested yet $15; UNISYS Scanner flatbed $10 not tested yet;Sun kb and mouse; NEC PC-8300 free not tested yet someone built a power supply into the battery compartment; a Scanjet controller card free and not tested;Commodore executive SX-64 portable works great at Goodwill for $15;Commodore 64C in box with manuals for free; Apple IIe 80col card for free (new in bag); AE timemaster card for apple free; and a large number items not yet 10 years old but the prices were too good to pass on and this way I will the units when they are 10 years old. There are more items but I will stop for now. Keep Computing John From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 29 20:37:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: is the list up? Message-ID: <199801300237.AA23042@world.std.com> I just saw an interesting system It's a white steel box, about 5 x 8 in and 12 inches deep. Top flips up. Its called an IBC or ICB, I forget, and it's a Z80 based system with a floppy and Micropolis hard drive. I also weighs about 20 pounds due mostly to its antiquated power supply. Any info? It has a CPU card and separate controller card bussed together laying stacked sideways over the drives and power suppy. All the ports (many) are hardwired out the back. I almost picked this up, and I should have. It's going for about 5 bucks. I imagine the PS is shot, I didn't have a chance to check. Is it possible to hook up a standard switching power supply (well that's probably a dumb question). Any clues, I might pick it up, if I don't go to Vegas 1st thing tommorrow.... -Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 18:39:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <199801292250.OAA04297@mxu4.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jan 28, 98 09:55:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/0ca7b2fb/attachment.ksh From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 20:54:02 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Computone Port Card References: <199801300027.BAA24859@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <34D140CA.529F@konnections.com> Am I sure they're RJ11, no. They're physically the same jack with six live wires. But beyond that, how would I know??? Does Xenix see these when it loads or do I have to tell it? (Xenix/at 2.2.1) Do you if they are compatible/similar to anything that might recognise the board and work it in today's UNIX world??? -Mike Riccardo wrote: > > At 21:06 28/01/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I have a Computone 4(?) port card. long 16 bit ISA bus with 4 RJ11 > >ports and 2 RJ45 ports. > >Need info on real purpose and uses, jumpers and switches, thanks > > I have several Computone still in use. > > What I can say: > They are Multiport card used mainly to hook several tty-devices to a > xenix/unix box. > Usually these cards have an external multiport (DB25) small box connected. > In latest version I thnk they used space-saving RJ's > Are you shure they are true RJ11? (or they are DEC RJ with side ?) > > > > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? > ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? > ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? > ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? > ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 20:57:42 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: Message-ID: <34D141A6.6A90@konnections.com> Tony: I just seem to remember _something_ about the XT286 that made me avoid it for true 286 stuff. Maybe it was the memory. Most after market AT boards had room for a meg or two. Maybe it was the 640... -Mike Tony Duell wrote: > I've not got the XT-286 techref to hand, so I can't look at the > schematics. But I seem to remember that it's _very_ similar to the PC/AT > - it's a lot closer to that machine than to the XT. There are 2 DMA > controllers, 2 interrupt controllers, the 8042 keyboard controller (so it > takes an AT keyboard), etc. My thoughts when I looked at the schematics > were that it was a repackaged AT. Of course they could have missed out > the extra reset logic, but I doubt it. > > It does use a non-standard motherboard, though. The memory is a little > odd - 128K in DIPs (4 off 64K*4, 2 off 64K*1 for the parrity) and 2 256K > SIMMs for a total of 640K. > > > > > I guess.... > > > > -Mike > > -tony From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 21:00:31 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions References: Message-ID: <34D1424F.74C3@konnections.com> Speaking of which, where are all the Transputer cards for EISA sitting. Are they still commanding $hundreds? A couple of T400s would be nice. -Mike Tony Duell wrote: > > I suspect the real collectables will be the really obscure machines - > development systems, parallel machines, experimental machines, etc. No > idea if any will ever turn up second-hand, alas. > > > Mike > > -tony From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 29 22:09:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: More stuff Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980129220931.3dafee16@intellistar.net> Hi, Picked up a few more items today. A book named The AmigaDOS Manual by The Bantam Amiga Library and a copy of the Operating Manual for Jet also for the Amiga. Also two manuals for Commodore disk drives, one says 1541C and the other says 1541. And a GEOS User's Mamual for the Commodore 64 or 128. Any need any of this stuff? E-mail me privately. Also got a strange Commodore cable. It has what looks like a double ended HP-IB connector one end and a card edge connector on the other. All the connectors have 24 contacts. Both ends have a heavy braided ground strap. It looks like it's about 2 foot long. Any one know what this is for? Joe From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 21:19:22 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Stuff, while we're at it... Message-ID: <34D146BA.4E2@konnections.com> I have the following items that have to go: MAC Plus, good basic system w/key & mouse 1 - 4 meg of mem $10 MAC 512k, monitor fuzzy, but works free with Plus. External 400k drive for Mac $5 Bernoulli 5mb Removeable drive for Mac $10 (+ Software) Apple IIe Enhancement kit. (A2M2052) Don't ask me. New in shrinkwrapped box $5 Northgate DOS 4.0 with Manuals (3 ring) and Covers + Install disks $10 I've got other but that's it for now. Please keep shipping in mind. If you really need something on this list or off, please email me off line and I'll see if I can find it. Thanks, Mike From william at ans.net Thu Jan 29 21:20:21 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Update on finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980129202918.006c5df0@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: > Sun SPAREprinter model QA-6, anyone know how to do a self > print test on this unit I can not find any buttons or anything; It will not do much unless you have it connected to a SPARCstation running NeWSprint. The SPARCstation also requires a special S-bus card to interface to the printer. In other words, you have either a worthless printer, or a good excuse to go get yourself a SPARCstation. William Donzelli william@ans.net From agammuto at konics.com Thu Jan 29 21:25:22 1998 From: agammuto at konics.com (Andrew Gammuto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <00ba01bd2d2e$b32f50d0$62008fa8@osmoid> If I remember correctly, IBM released the XT 286 when the second generation PC/AT (with a faster clock - wasn't it 8 MHz?) came out. It was my impression then that the XT286 was an XT case with the older original AT motherboard inside. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Allison To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 10:04 PM Subject: Re: Development, round II >Tony: > >I just seem to remember _something_ about the XT286 that made me avoid >it for true 286 stuff. Maybe it was the memory. Most after market AT >boards had room for a meg or two. Maybe it was the 640... > >-Mike > >Tony Duell wrote: > >> I've not got the XT-286 techref to hand, so I can't look at the >> schematics. But I seem to remember that it's _very_ similar to the PC/AT >> - it's a lot closer to that machine than to the XT. There are 2 DMA >> controllers, 2 interrupt controllers, the 8042 keyboard controller (so it >> takes an AT keyboard), etc. My thoughts when I looked at the schematics >> were that it was a repackaged AT. Of course they could have missed out >> the extra reset logic, but I doubt it. >> >> It does use a non-standard motherboard, though. The memory is a little >> odd - 128K in DIPs (4 off 64K*4, 2 off 64K*1 for the parrity) and 2 256K >> SIMMs for a total of 640K. >> >> > >> > I guess.... >> > >> > -Mike >> >> -tony > From william at ans.net Thu Jan 29 21:33:27 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: <34D1424F.74C3@konnections.com> Message-ID: >I don't think PC clones (apart from a very few) will ever be collectable. >Certainly not the no-name machines. They will be, eventually. An interesting parallel can be made to now very collectable radios from the 1920s and 30s. Both they and PeeCees were built like crap, worked like crap, often built by shakey companies violating all sorts of things, and have almost zero engineering value. I think laptops will be hot collectables, as they are small and often clever. >Suns and SGIs, probably. Acorn RISC-PC's, probably. Alphas, again >probably I say yes to all of these. High quality things of any nature tend to become collectable as soon as they fall out of popular use. Look at the Sun-2 and 3 lines - they are now way obsolete, yet are still very popular machines amongst the Sunheads. >I suspect the real collectables will be the really obscure machines - >development systems, parallel machines, experimental machines, etc. No >idea if any will ever turn up second-hand, alas. I know someone that could have purchased a CM-2 for $800. There was also that Stardent machine that was mentioned on the list a few months ago. Never say never. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jan 29 21:45:11 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Sound Master PC card, etc. Message-ID: <01bd2d31$780e6a60$LocalHost@hotze> Sorry that I don't have all the information, but here goes: I've got a freidn with an early Pentium 75, purchased July 1995. Needless to say, it doesn't have Windows 95. When trying to insall some "classic" Sierra games, like the VGA Quest For Glory; the install progam has a list of sound cards that it supports. It puts a check by sound cards supported by your system (IE Sound Blaster 16 would be a Sound Blaster, Sound Blaster Pro, and Adlib compatible), and his would show up as "Sound Master." Now, it's my guess that Sound Master was a "clone" of Sound Blaster, but early versions must have added more features. Also, it wasn't "Sound Blaster Compatible" enough so that it used SB drivers. Sorry for the sketchy information, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Cord Coslor To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:54 AM Subject: Sound Master PC card, etc. >1) Here's an item that I am curious to learn about. I will transpose a written >description of this item... I hope it actually falls into the classic computing >category. Anyway, it is called the Sound Master PC and it says it is "a total >music and sound card.... sound and speech run through a direct memory access >(DMA) driven 8-bit digitizer. Sound Master PC incorporates an extra microchip >witha three-voice capability, the latestd esign for multi-part music and >special effects. Combined sounds go to the built-in stereo amplifier...." > Here's what I'm really interested in... "Sound Master PC also has digital >joystick ports which accept the 'fun' types of Atari, Commodore, or other >game-machine joysticks. ...." > "The board fits into any available slot on your PC. Mini stereo-speaker jack >and dual joystick ports are accessibe through the rear mounting bracket. The >package includes external speakers, plug-in board, instructioons, and a one-year >warranty." > >Does anyone know who might have made this unit? What year? Are the joystick >ports really any good? I run a digital joytsick (Atari) through my Printer >port.... but this sounds completely different. > >Feel free to add some input. Oh, how much would 'you' pay for something like >this. I have the opportunity to get up to ten of these things and am curious >what they're worth. ANyone else want to get in on the deal with me? > >I also have access to these: > >2) Voice Master Digitizer for the IBM, Apple, and Commodore Computers. >3) The Speech Thing-- allows recording sounds through the printer port. >4) C-20 cassettes (10 minutes per side) -- 20 for $6.60. Unused cassettes in >unused plastic case-NEW! >5) 1000 tractor-feed mailing labels for $3.95. >6) New 5 1/4" disks 100 for $5.40 (Single-sided, single or double density) >7) 100 Double Sided, Double Density 5.25" for $5.50 -- >8) also new 8" disketes for $1.00 a piece! > >Let me know on some of this stuff and we can work out a deal. > >Love to get more info on it all, > >CORD > > >-- > _________________________________________ >| Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net | >| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | >|-----------------------------------------| >| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421-0308 | >| (402) 872- 3272 | >|_________________________________________| > > From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jan 29 21:51:18 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980129142132.46379eea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > RE: Military course books, > > I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order > the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on > active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military, > have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You > may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech > manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they > still are. > > Joe Joe I think you are right - any item that is/has been declassified should be available from the GPO. However - we better watch our step as this is a clip from email I received from the Sam Ismail about information like this ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Once again, you've perpetuated off-topic non-sense thus proving you are as much an ass as you have ever been. > Awww gee - And I got a great personal achievemant story about the early > Navy training that I can't tell - Darn! I really would not want to hear your sordid shower stall tales. Now post something relevant or just fall into the background and stay quiet like the good little nerd you've been in the last few months. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- So apparently Sam has a few problems to resolve and the list ,as a whole, and others as individuals, have to suffer through the time it takes for Sam to get his act together. Other than the above, I have had no problems with anyone on the list. And I am saddened that I still can not tell my story. Until such time as some more old Navy equipment gets to be declassified, something that has never happened in the *specific area* of my training, I must remain silent about it 8-( However, as I was held over at T.I. (Treasure Island Navy Training Center) to participate in and critique the very first Digital Techniques Class given at T.I. (late 1970) I have to agree that *most* training manuals are pretty bad! The majority are extremely good at presenting the facts but leave it up to the trainer to figure out how to get them into the students. Some of my most used books are on microwave transmission lines and waveguides. After the class, the three of us that were to critique the course, saw the new manuals and reviewed then in two weeks. Record turn around for the Government 8-) The base attempted to hold on to all three of us for instructors - however - we were all slotted to go to Vallejo after finishing Radar training. Somehow, at the time, you had to understand radar before they let you do Data or Crypto 8-/ Something about pulses 8-) I will say that the Air Force did seem to have better manuals than the Navy and Army. I think they still do. As a side note - there used to be some GREAT surplus stores in San Francisco - saw my only wire recorder there as well as some interesting radar equipment, that at the time, I thought was still classifed. Years later (88) I couldn't find them. Anybody know what happened to them? I think they were on Market street or maybe on the the one south of it I don't remember anymore 8-( BC From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 29 21:03:51 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980129142132.46379eea@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980128234945.009b3320@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: >RE: Military course books, > > I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order >the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on >active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military, >have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You Don't know about retirees, but that's a good point about active duty. >may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech >manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they >still are. I'd forgotten about this, I think in the front of the manuals is a blurb about how non-military can obtain them. The caveat being that they are non-classified manuals. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Data Systems Technician manuals were, but the rest I was talking about weren't. I assume you also have to be a US citizen. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 29 21:01:08 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Other manuals that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware) >> manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at >> sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying >> core memory for a test he had to take. > >What is so odd about this? There is still LOTS of core still in use by the >military. Why? Because you can beat the hell out of it. At the time I wasn't into old computers, only the latest and greatest. As such, core memory seemed incredibly ancient. We were on an Aircraft Carrier, and to the best of our knowledge nothing was still using core. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 29 22:01:15 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980129130938.4a97b43a@ricochet.net> At 08:23 PM 1/27/98 +0000, you wrote: >rather have a service manual that starts 'Take the HDA into a clean room >and undo the cover screws (#1 in fig 4.2), lift off cover' etc than one The problem, of course, from the mfr's point of view, is that some bozo is going to think "hmmm... Larry across the hall has a maid come twice a month, I'll take it over there and..." and then they have to deal with 1) repairing/replacing the drive, 2) losing a customer who thinks they should fix it under warranty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 29 22:01:18 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Interesting Find Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980129141530.4a97070a@ricochet.net> How is it I always manage to get so far behind? Sorry for the late response... At 06:17 PM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >Found an interesting (at least to me) luggable/portable at the local thrift >the other day. It's a Sharp PC-7100. Very compact and sharp (no pun) >design. About half the size and weight of an old Compaq, with a detatchable Best I can figure it, (based on my 3,) is the PC-7000 had two floppy drives, the PC-7100 gave up a floppy for the hard drive. These are actually more interesting than you might think at first glance. Notice how the handle can slide towards the back so it's off-center? Notice the little metal inserts along the top edge of the back? There's a printer (I've only got one) that attaches to the back for portability. The handle can either be centered on just the main unit or on the main unit and the printer. >it. BTW, the screen has a blue/purple sort of tint to it. Kind of >attractive in a psychodelic sort of way ( oh please, no more drug-related I'm afraid I've got no docs, and it's been a while since I've booted any of mine so I can't even say if any have the same tint. I would be interested in hearing anything you find out about it, though! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 29 22:01:42 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980129173313.4a97b48c@ricochet.net> Speaking of polygonical manholes, does anyone know where to get a copy of turtle logo for older macs? Or, perhaps even better, a cartridge version for one of the 6502 machines (Atari, c64, etc.)? (This is for my niece who is probably about ready to at least watch logo pgms.) At 01:06 PM 1/29/98 GMT, you wrote: >indeed round because they then won't fall down the hole if you drop >them. But other shapes share this property - triangular manholes are You may have triangular manholes (and, I assume, covers), but I disagree with the statement that they won't fall in. (Mind you, they may not be *likely* to, but that doesn't mean they won't.) Consider any regular (is that the right term?) polygon (i.e., all sides, angles are equal). For an odd number of sides: imagine a line from an angle to the midpoint of the opposite side. Imagine a second line, from that same angle to either end of the opposite side. You've just created a right triangle (imaginary lines, half the opposite side) wherein the first imaginary line *must* be shorter than your second line. Put your first line parallel to the ground, line up the manhole vertically above the corresponding second line on the manhole, and drop. For an even number of sides: Do the same thing, only the reverse (opposite angle and connected side, etc.) Oh, make sure there's no one down below before dropping *please* --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 29 22:02:12 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980129192831.532720b2@ricochet.net> I'm behind in my e-mail again... At 10:09 PM 1/11/98, you wrote: > I have a bunch of HP 75Ds. I also have the manuals for them. Let me know >if you need any info about them. What is a HP LS/12 ? I've never heard of The LS/12 is actually made by Zenith; I think it's a Supersport? Basic '286 (iirc) PC laptop. I'm working on scanning the photos I've taken; someday I'll get a web page set up. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Jan 29 19:50:31 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: REXX and Amigas (AREXX) References: <199801290802.AAA21731@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34D131E7.3FB3@goldrush.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >REXX on a PC? [snip] > > The Amiga also has ARexx, not sure how long, but I've an Amiga OS 3.1 > manual on it. > AREXX was introduced as a third-party enhancement sometime during Workbench 1.3 and quickly became a popular cross application protocol. By Workbench 2.0 it was integrated into the operating system and became a standard component. Most of the apps for the Amiga now have support for AREXX control (one of the reasons it was such a dream for the video/graphics whizzes as they could have several programs automatically process images and digitized video without much effort) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 22:09:36 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) References: <3.0.3.32.19980128234945.009b3320@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <34D15280.2038@konnections.com> The GPO catalog listed some computer training stuff, I believe part of it military. Anyone can order it. For the most part, the military has moved away from "For Official Use Only" on manuals and such, if it doesn't say that, distribution is pretty much unlimited to all... Most of this stuff is pretty innocuous, community college stuff (or high school, I guess). -Mike Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >RE: Military course books, > > > > I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order > >the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on > >active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military, > >have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You > > Don't know about retirees, but that's a good point about active duty. > > >may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech > >manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they > >still are. > > I'd forgotten about this, I think in the front of the manuals is a blurb > about how non-military can obtain them. The caveat being that they are > non-classified manuals. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Data > Systems Technician manuals were, but the rest I was talking about weren't. > I assume you also have to be a US citizen. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rws at ais.net Thu Jan 29 22:10:29 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Point Four, Anadex, C-64 questions Message-ID: I have several questions on some computers I have that I'm stuck in the mud on. Point Four Data Systems Mark 3 minicomputer: This thing dates from 1985-ish. It's rack-mountable, and I have a CDC Lark 25+25MB removable hard drive for it. The manuals I got with it are for a different model of computer. I can get into the MANIP monitor but few of the commands do anything (particularly the one to IPL off the drive- it either hangs or goes back to the MANIP prompt immediately.) I don't know if the drive or any of the cartridges contain anything at all. Does anyone know *anything* about this thing? Any info would be helpful, as I'm out of ideas. Anadex DP-6500 RapidScribe printer: I'm told it works. All of the DIP switches are set off (and there's 30+ of them). It doesn't do much at all. Does anyone have the DIP switch settings for it? I've searched the WWW and found ribbons for sale but that's it. Commodore 64: I bought a boxful of C=64 stuff today at a nifty junk market I've never noticed before. The 64 boots to one of the following screens (at random): black, blue and black stripes, blue and red stripes, red screen, red-white-blue-black stripes, white and black stripes, or multi-colored graphical garbage. Does this sound like a common failure mode, and if so, which chip? Also, what's a fair price for a Coleco Adam system: 2 keyboards, memory box with datacassette drives, external numeric keypad with knob (paddle?), and printer. One more: fair price for Apple //c+ system: CPU, monitor, two disk drives (one Apple, one other). Enough questions. Thanks for your help, Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From william at ans.net Thu Jan 29 22:14:20 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > At the time I wasn't into old computers, only the latest and greatest. As > such, core memory seemed incredibly ancient. At the time, it was! > We were on an Aircraft > Carrier, and to the best of our knowledge nothing was still using core. I would think that any core based stuff would be upgraded for aircraft duty, as the stuff tends to be heavy (wire, lots of it). There was a place in Milwaukee still making core for the military in the late 1980s. William Donzelli william@ans.net From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Jan 29 22:23:45 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980129192831.532720b2@ricochet.net> References: <3.0.16.19980129192831.532720b2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <34f45509.366600483@hoser> Have you ever seen a Zenith "MiniSport"? Uses 2" floppies? I found one at a junk sale one time and probably paid way too much for it just because of the cute little floppy drive. It's also got DOS in built-in memory, so it boots instantly. I've never seen one anywhere else. On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:02:12 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >The LS/12 is actually made by Zenith; I think it's a Supersport? Basic >'286 (iirc) PC laptop. I'm working on scanning the photos I've taken; >someday I'll get a web page set up. 8^) > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 29 22:26:45 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:34 2005 Subject: Stuff, while we're at it... In-Reply-To: <34D146BA.4E2@konnections.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > Apple IIe Enhancement kit. (A2M2052) Don't ask me. New in > shrinkwrapped box $5 This is a kit which converted your unenhanced Apple //e (the original //e) to an enhanced //e. The difference between the two? Unenhanced Enhanced 6502 Processor 65C02 Processor (a wee bit faster, increased instruction set and some new addressing modes) No mousetext Mousetext (basically a new character ROM with some additional characters you could use to create applications with a windowed look) I think I'm forgetting maybe one more thing. Something having to do with interrupts. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Thu Jan 29 22:36:15 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Point Four, Anadex, C-64 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > Also, what's a fair price for a Coleco Adam system: 2 keyboards, memory > box with datacassette drives, external numeric keypad with knob (paddle?), > and printer. $25 - $30 as long as it works. > One more: fair price for Apple //c+ system: CPU, monitor, two disk drives > (one Apple, one other). $55 - $75 as long as it all works. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jan 29 22:49:17 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Stuff, while we're at it... References: Message-ID: <34D15BCD.6E78@konnections.com> Okay, I have a picture on the box. It has the 65c02 and some memory 7 slots, 1 similar aux slot I/O ports... It says "logic board not included" If this picture is correct, what the hell does that mean? Does it mean it's basically an Apple IIe motherboard? I can see all thr proms in the picture and arrays for the keyboard and numeric pad... Now I'm dying to open it.... -Mike Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > > > Apple IIe Enhancement kit. (A2M2052) Don't ask me. New in > > shrinkwrapped box $5 > > This is a kit which converted your unenhanced Apple //e (the original //e) > to an enhanced //e. The difference between the two? > > Unenhanced Enhanced > 6502 Processor 65C02 Processor (a wee bit faster, > increased instruction set and some > new addressing modes) > No mousetext Mousetext (basically a new character > ROM with some additional characters > you could use to create applications > with a windowed look) > > I think I'm forgetting maybe one more thing. Something having to do with > interrupts. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Jan 29 23:49:08 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Photos of VCF I Message-ID: <34D169D4.3B2F@digiweb.com> Haven't seen this mentioned on the list. The VCF was, of course, organized by our very own Sam... -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 01 photo web site! Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:04:16 GMT From: kenm@nospam.csus.edu (Ken Montgomery) Organization: CSU Sacramento Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers, comp.society.folklore I wanted to let everyone who watches this group for information about the history of computing and old computers that I have put up a new page with lots of photographs taken at the Vintage Computer Festival that was held on October 25th and 26th 1997, at the Alameda County Fairgrounds in Pleasanton, California. The Festival was an event held to celebrate computers and their history. The site is: The site contains photographs that I took of the exhibit area and the sellers area, both were inside the same hall. So check out the page and drop me line! From lfb107 at psu.edu Thu Jan 29 23:10:39 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 Message-ID: <199801300513.AAA70512@f01n05.cac.psu.edu> I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back says it requires a 286. So whats the deal? Les From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 29 23:20:27 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Update on finds In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980129202918.006c5df0@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129232027.006b6404@pop3.concentric.net> Thanks for the update that's what I was figured would be the answer. The S-bus card was a surprise, now I have to go on the hunt. Thanks again John At 10:20 PM 1/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Sun SPAREprinter model QA-6, anyone know how to do a self >> print test on this unit I can not find any buttons or anything; > >It will not do much unless you have it connected to a SPARCstation running >NeWSprint. The SPARCstation also requires a special S-bus card to >interface to the printer. > >In other words, you have either a worthless printer, or a good excuse to >go get yourself a SPARCstation. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 29 23:39:04 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 References: <199801300513.AAA70512@f01n05.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <34D16778.7A05082E@rain.org> Les Berry wrote: > I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that > it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? > > A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back > says it requires a 286. It has been a long time since I worked with wIN 3.0 but as I recall, Win 3.0 was capable of running in real, standard, and enhanced mode. There was quite a bit of discussion when it first appeared about the compatibility with XT computers, hence the real mode operation. You can still find out some interesting information about starting Windows buy typing "win /?" at the command prompt. Real mode compatibility was removed for version 3.1. Interesting sidelight, if you were running a machine capable of using Windows in enhanced mode, the speed of the machine sometimes picked up if it was started in Standard mode. As I recall, it was because some of the enhanced features such as "multitasking" were disabled in standard mode. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Jan 29 18:58:04 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: website 'bout the i4004! In-Reply-To: <34D169D4.3B2F@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199801300552.AAA22760@mail.cgocable.net> Here's oldie stuff on CPU, 4004. If you are an Intel 4004 enthusiast, please check out my site at http://home1.gte.net/ccourson/4004.htm -- Chris Courson, Tampa, FL ccourson@gte.net email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From engine at chac.org Thu Jan 29 23:52:53 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: References: <34D1424F.74C3@konnections.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980129215253.00f1a840@pop.batnet.com> At 22:33 1/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >I think laptops will be hot collectables, as they are small and often >clever. Especially the early color laptops (e. g. NEC Multispeed 386) which very few people bought. Laptops made out of funny materials -- the magnesium GRIDs or the Toshibas with carbon-fiber cases. The nicer palmtops (they can pry my Pofo from my cold dead fingers....) And, of course, several of the hardened military micros. And the rarer Ataris. And Lisas!! >>Suns and SGIs, probably. Acorn RISC-PC's, probably. Alphas, again >>probably. MIPS. HP Kayaks -- buy now while they're cheap! ;-) >I say yes to all of these. Me^2, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Thu Jan 29 23:58:58 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend In-Reply-To: <34f45509.366600483@hoser> References: <3.0.16.19980129192831.532720b2@ricochet.net> <3.0.16.19980129192831.532720b2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >Have you ever seen a Zenith "MiniSport"? Uses 2" floppies? I found >one at a junk sale one time and probably paid way too much for it just >because of the cute little floppy drive. It's also got DOS in >built-in memory, so it boots instantly. I've never seen one anywhere >else. Those are cute machines... There was actually a series of text files, something of a e-mag floating around on the amateur radio packet network, and is available on the internet somewhere. I'll try and dig up a URL. I saw one at a swap meet last year, but I thought $20 was a bit much, especially since there was no battery. Old Zenith laptops are interesting. I saw a 8088 SupersPort, two 800k floppies(or an optional HD replaced the floppy on the left side), hit ctr-alt-ins(or is it ctrl-alt-esc?) to get into the ROM monitor(my 286 has a MFM-200, the 8088 I saw was MFM-184 or something). In the 286, there are setup and test programs, but the 8088 was interesting. The test software was still there, but the hardware config was handled by a bank of jumpers next to the FPU socket. What was really interesting, though, was the complete debugger in there with the test program. While I'm talking about the SupersPorts(most people type SuperSport, but on the case and in the manual it's SupersPort. I wonder why...), does anyone have a pinout of the internal modem slot on the SupersPort 286? -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ From engine at chac.org Fri Jan 30 00:04:26 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 In-Reply-To: <199801300513.AAA70512@f01n05.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980129220426.0106ebb0@pop.batnet.com> At 00:10 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that >it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? >A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back >says it requires a 286. >So whats the deal? Deal is, you can't run Windows 3.x on any processor that doesn't have protected mode. I think the last Windows you could run on an XT was 2.1. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 30 00:15:38 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Apple //e enhancement kit In-Reply-To: <34D15BCD.6E78@konnections.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Mike Allison wrote: > I have a picture on the box. It has the 65c02 and some memory 7 slots, > 1 similar aux slot I/O ports... > > It says "logic board not included" If this picture is correct, what the > hell does that mean? Does it mean it's basically an Apple IIe > motherboard? I can see all thr proms in the picture and arrays for the > keyboard and numeric pad... Its basically a set of chips: a 65C02 and some ROMS. You swap them with the existing chips on the motherboard. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 30 00:39:31 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Ricoh-based laser printers In-Reply-To: <9801300055.AA05262@alph02.triumf.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129223931.03694278@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:55 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >I've recently run across several old DEC LN03's and variants, all >based on the same Ricoh laserprinter mechanics. While several are >still in mostly-working condition, there are a few problems: > >2. Large black areas that I try to print come out mostly grey, with >only the top 1/16" or so coming out solid black. There's plenty of >toner in the printer. Is it possible that the toner is "stale"? >(Most of these printers haven't been used in a couple of years.) I >have several sealed toner kits. Or is this more likely a fuser >problem? Or is it something in the electronics? Most likely the OPC belt is bad. They have a (partially) organic coating and have a limited life once unsealed. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 30 00:54:15 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Photos of VCF I In-Reply-To: <34D169D4.3B2F@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129225415.02fe6118@agora.rdrop.com> >Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 01 photo web site! >Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:04:16 GMT >From: kenm@nospam.csus.edu (Ken Montgomery) >Organization: CSU Sacramento >Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers, comp.society.folklore > >I wanted to let everyone who watches this group for information about >the history of computing and old computers that I have put up a new page >with lots of photographs taken at the Vintage Computer Festival that was >held on October 25th and 26th 1997, at the Alameda County Fairgrounds in >Pleasanton, California. The Festival was an event held to celebrate >computers and their history. The site is: > > > BTW: yet more VCF v1.0 pictures are available on the 'Computer Garage' web site at: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcf.html Enjoy! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 30 01:21:54 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980129214756.31773d2c@ricochet.net> At 09:51 PM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote: >be some GREAT surplus stores in San Francisco - saw my only wire recorder >there as well as some interesting radar equipment, that at the time, I >thought was still classifed. Years later (88) I couldn't find them. >Anybody know what happened to them? I think they were on Market street Hmmm.. There's Kaplan's on Market about 6th; They do mostly army-surplus-esque camping gear and some uniforms and tenner shoes. There's another one about between 7th & 8th that (last time I was in) seems to cater only to the bigger-is-better-in-knives-and-forget-about-quality crowd. (They're actually probably just about right above me as I type this!) There used to be a really good one on Mission (one block south) between 7th & 8th, but they went out of business in the early 80's. I don't know of any *real* military surplus stores around SF anymore; though you'd think there would be some, what with Mare Island Naval ShipYard, Treasure Island, Alameda (Nuclear Wessels!), The Presidio, etc. There are a few electronics surplus stores around, especially down in the (silicon) valley. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 01:39:19 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: What I did this weekend References: <3.0.16.19980129192831.532720b2@ricochet.net> <34f45509.366600483@hoser> Message-ID: <34D183A7.830269CA@cnct.com> Bill Richman wrote: > > Have you ever seen a Zenith "MiniSport"? Uses 2" floppies? I found > one at a junk sale one time and probably paid way too much for it just > because of the cute little floppy drive. It's also got DOS in > built-in memory, so it boots instantly. I've never seen one anywhere I was doing tech support (Xenix/Unix) for a retail operation when they first showed up. Cute little things. Good luck finding media. (They _do_ work with Laplink & such. So if you can get Laplink to do its upload and you've got at least one disk, you can probably (don't count on it, but probably) attach a parallel Zip drive). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 30 01:46:31 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Point Four, Anadex, C-64 questions Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980129233723.3fcf88c2@ricochet.net> At 08:36 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >> Also, what's a fair price for a Coleco Adam system: 2 keyboards, memory >> box with datacassette drives, external numeric keypad with knob (paddle?), >> and printer. > >$25 - $30 as long as it works. I have to disagree here... I'd say $50-75, possibly as high as $100 with the extra parts, depending on how badly one wants one. (Again, assuming it's working.) Mind you, that's what I'd feel comfortable selling it, wihtout feeling like I'd ripped someone off. I don't know if I'd pay that much right now, but catch me in a good month... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 01:49:03 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 References: <199801300513.AAA70512@f01n05.cac.psu.edu> <34D16778.7A05082E@rain.org> Message-ID: <34D185EF.49F8F502@cnct.com> Marvin wrote: > > Les Berry wrote: > > > I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that > > it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? > > > > A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back > > says it requires a 286. > > It has been a long time since I worked with wIN 3.0 but as I recall, Win 3.0 > was capable of running in real, standard, and enhanced mode. There was > quite a bit of discussion when it first appeared about the compatibility > with XT computers, hence the real mode operation. You can still find out > some interesting information about starting Windows buy typing "win /?" at > the command prompt. Real mode compatibility was removed for version 3.1. > Interesting sidelight, if you were running a machine capable of using > Windows in enhanced mode, the speed of the machine sometimes picked up if it > was started in Standard mode. As I recall, it was because some of the > enhanced features such as "multitasking" were disabled in standard mode. Yeah, something like that. You can run Word or you can print. Don't try to print from Word. It will get ugly. Windows 3.0 will _not_ work on anything less than a 286. Or in my experience on a 286 with an 8-bit bus (Tandy TL/2). Unless there's a trick I missed. (Yes, I had the CGA drivers at hand). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 02:11:07 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Computone Port Card References: <199801300027.BAA24859@mbox.queen.it> <34D140CA.529F@konnections.com> Message-ID: <34D18B1B.CA79EA4A@cnct.com> Mike Allison wrote: > > Am I sure they're RJ11, no. They're physically the same jack with six > live wires. But beyond that, how would I know??? RJ-11 is four wires. Standard phone jack. > Does Xenix see these when it loads or do I have to tell it? > > (Xenix/at 2.2.1) > > Do you if they are compatible/similar to anything that might recognise > the board and work it in today's UNIX world??? Xenix definitely needs device drivers installed. Probably so does SCO Unix. And the device drivers came with the board, not the OS. Some Linux distributions will recognize it immediately, but even then you're best off recompiling the kernel -- since there are a lot of other things taking up kernel space that don't need to be recognized. I like to start with a sparse kernel and add things. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 30 02:04:32 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <01bd2d55$b2bddfa0$LocalHost@hotze> Hello. I'm going to get one of these from Jeff Kaneko. One thing: What OS's are avaible? I tried looking on Apple's site, but didn't really find anything too interesting. What's the one that the most sofware was written for? Most "standard", and what kind of stuff's avaible for a II+ (I'm sure that that's not a simple question.) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze PS-Does anyone have Apple ][+ disks? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/97204d69/attachment.html From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Fri Jan 30 02:27:31 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS In-Reply-To: <01bd2d55$b2bddfa0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: > Hello. I'm going to get one of these >from Jeff Kaneko. One thing: >What OS's are avaible? I tried looking on Apple's site, but didn't >really find >anything too interesting. What's the one that the most sofware was written >for? Most "standard", and what kind of stuff's avaible for a II+ (I'm >sure that >that's not a simple question.) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze PS-Does anyone >have Apple ][+ disks? The IIgs will run any Apple II+/IIe OS(ProDOS, DOS 3.3, etc...), or GS/OS which is a modified version of MacOS. GS/OS is available on Apple's FTP site. The IIgs will also run most Apple II+/IIe software, can use most of the Apple II+/IIe expansion cards and floppy drives. Definitley the most capable machine in the Apple II line. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek From go at ao.com Fri Jan 30 02:33:07 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Found some printer cards for Apple ][ computers Message-ID: <199801300835.AAA12447@office.ao.com> At least it's what they appear to be... Found at a local electronic "computer" store: several printer cards for what appears to be Apple ][ computers. (I'm not an Apple person, so I don't know the bus layout.) The connector is a 50 pin edge-card (25 per side) and there is a 20 pin header on the board, to which attaches a companion flat cable with a conventional Centronics-style 36 pin connector at the end. The cable is 3 feet long, and it looks like it was meant to exit the enclosure and plug directly into a printer. There is an on-board 2716 eprom (I might dump the contents at work to see if there is any manufacturer info inside.) There is absolutely no manufacturer name or info on the board other than what appear to be part numbers (I think): "APL B" and "SP-201-EP-0" in the silkscreen and "H-002" in the copper foil. Parts are all SSI (74LS00 series) with date codes around 1984. They were free, so if anyone wants one or more, let me know. All I ask is shipping or "you pick up." I'm in Corvallis, Oregon. Oh, and I should say for emphasis: I HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY WORK and NO WARRANTIES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. Contact me by email if you want them. I don't have any Apples, so don't have a reason to save them. Just didn't want to see them dumpstered. Gary. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 30 02:38:17 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <01bd2d5a$6a7b1640$LocalHost@hotze> Yes, I know about the IIGS, it's a pretty nice GUI machine. When I was in second grade, that's all that they had in my old school. But, I'm not getting a IIGS, I'm getting a II+, the one that came before the IIe. (I think) Anyway, is ProDOS the best? Also, does the Apple ][ juse SS/SD disks? If so, where can I get osme? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: John Rollins To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Apple ][+ OS >> Hello. I'm going to get one of these >from Jeff Kaneko. One thing: >>What OS's are avaible? I tried looking on Apple's site, but didn't >>really find >>anything too interesting. What's the one that the most sofware was written >>for? Most "standard", and what kind of stuff's avaible for a II+ (I'm >>sure that >>that's not a simple question.) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze PS-Does anyone >>have Apple ][+ disks? > >The IIgs will run any Apple II+/IIe OS(ProDOS, DOS 3.3, etc...), or GS/OS >which is a modified version of MacOS. GS/OS is available on Apple's FTP >site. The IIgs will also run most Apple II+/IIe software, can use most of >the Apple II+/IIe expansion cards and floppy drives. Definitley the most >capable machine in the Apple II line. > >-JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek > > From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Fri Jan 30 02:51:16 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS In-Reply-To: <01bd2d5a$6a7b1640$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: >Yes, I know about the IIGS, it's a pretty nice GUI machine. When I was in >second grade, that's all that they had in my old school. But, I'm not >getting a IIGS, I'm getting a II+, the one that came before the IIe. (I >think) Anyway, is ProDOS the best? > Also, does the Apple ][ juse SS/SD disks? If so, where can I get osme? > Thanks, DOH! Did I start off on the IIgs again? I didn't even notice you were talking about the II+... THIS is why I shouldn't be allowed to send email at 12:30 in the morning!. OK, for the II+, ProDOS is probably what you want. DOS 3.3(I've never seen this one) or CP/M(only one I have is my Hayes SmartModem 300 disk) are supposed to be around. Do you know how much RAM yours has? I have an extra copy of ProDOS(still shrinkwrapped!! I'm not sure which version), and it needs more RAM than a stock II+ has. I guess whatever a II+ with a memory expansion card would have... I seem to remember 64k being on the box. As for the disks, I'm not sure. Try digging around at http://www.apple2.org, it should have plenty of info(I know it has a link to the csa2 newsgroup FAQ). -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 30 03:33:12 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <01bd2d62$1576e400$LocalHost@hotze> >DOH! Did I start off on the IIgs again? I didn't even notice you were >talking about the II+... THIS is why I shouldn't be allowed to send email >at 12:30 in the morning! Don't worry, the feeling is not unfamiliar to me. (Someone mentions IBM, I start with the RS/6000's, Deep Blue, etc.) >OK, for the II+, ProDOS is probably what you want. DOS 3.3(I've never seen this one) >or CP/M(only one I have is my Hayes >SmartModem 300 disk) are supposed to be around. Do you know how much RAM >yours has? I have an extra copy of ProDOS(still shrinkwrapped!! I'm not >sure which version), and it needs more RAM than a stock II+ has. I guess >whatever a II+ with a memory expansion card would have... I seem to >remember 64k being on the box. As for the disks, I'm not sure. Try digging >around at http://www.apple2.org, it should have plenty of info(I know it >has a link to the csa2 newsgroup FAQ). OK... well, if I can't find anything else, I'll take the old copy, as I think that you might want to hang on to the shrinkwrapped copy. I wouldn't know what it was like, as I wasn't around when it was made. But, anyway, I'll take the old copy, you can use the new one, as a "liscense", make a backup copy of the disks, and then everyone's happy. ;-) Thanks for the help, Tim D. Hotze >-JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jan 30 06:01:57 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: look inside your ][+ and see if you have a language card. if so, you have the 64k needed to run prodos. the latest and greatest version of prodos 8 won't run on a ][+ i think, only an enjanced //e. if you dont, you can only run dos 3.3 i myself prefer both. i remember when prodos first came out and everyone had an issue with the restrictive 15 character limit for filenames. that was back before i worked with mess-dos and that 8.3 filename limit... david In a message dated 98-01-30 05:18:32 EST, you write: << OK... well, if I can't find anything else, I'll take the old copy, as I think that you might want to hang on to the shrinkwrapped copy. I wouldn't know what it was like, as I wasn't around when it was made. But, anyway, I'll take the old copy, you can use the new one, as a "liscense", make a backup copy of the disks, and then everyone's happy. ;-) Thanks for the help, >> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 07:15:59 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980129142132.46379eea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130071559.2ff747c0@intellistar.net> At 09:51 PM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote: > >On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Joe wrote: > >> RE: Military course books, >> >> I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order >> the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on >> active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military, >> have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You >> may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech >> manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they >> still are. >> >> Joe > >Joe I think you are right - any item that is/has been declassified should >be available from the GPO. However - we better watch our step as this is >a clip from email I received from the ********* (name removed to protect the guilty) about information like >this > >And I am saddened that I still can not tell my story. Until such time >as some more old Navy equipment gets to be declassified, something that >has never happened in the *specific area* of my training, I must remain >silent about it 8-( If it involves Crypto, you probably won't live long enough to see it declassified. > >However, as I was held over at T.I. (Treasure Island Navy Training Center) >to participate in and critique the very first Digital Techniques Class >given at T.I. (late 1970) I have to agree that *most* training manuals are >pretty bad! The majority are extremely good at presenting the facts but >leave it up to the trainer to figure out how to get them into the >students. The USAF takes the opposite approach, everything spelled out and the instructors basicly repeat what's in the manuals. I suspect the Army is the same now. I just spent 8 years writing manuals for one of their new programs. I never saw them teaching the courses but the manuals were very good. Most of the USAF trainers are professional instructors and have never worked on the equipement that they're talking about. At least they usually have a decent electronics background. >Some of my most used books are on microwave transmission lines >and waveguides. After the class, the three of us that were to critique the >course, saw the new manuals and reviewed then in two weeks. Record turn >around for the Government 8-) The base attempted to hold on to all three >of us for instructors - however - we were all slotted to go to Vallejo >after finishing Radar training. Somehow, at the time, you had to >understand radar before they let you do Data or Crypto 8-/ Something about >pulses 8-) Yes, we had some crypto types in school when I trained on RADAR too. (early 70s.) Most of them were completely lost in electronics. > >I will say that the Air Force did seem to have better manuals than the >Navy and Army. I think they still do. As a side note - there used to >be some GREAT surplus stores in San Francisco - saw my only wire recorder >there as well as some interesting radar equipment, that at the time, I >thought was still classifed. Years later (88) I couldn't find them. >Anybody know what happened to them? I think they were on Market street >or maybe on the the one south of it I don't remember anymore 8-( > After the VietNam war ended and the military wound down a lot of the old surplus stores died off. Too bad. Joe >BC > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 07:19:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130071911.2ff71f5c@intellistar.net> At 07:01 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >>> Other manuals that would be good would be the (they did the Hardware) >>> manuals. I remember 2-3 years ago sitting in the computer room while at >>> sea, looking over and being dumbfounded that one of the guys was studying >>> core memory for a test he had to take. >> >>What is so odd about this? There is still LOTS of core still in use by the >>military. Why? Because you can beat the hell out of it. > >At the time I wasn't into old computers, only the latest and greatest. As >such, core memory seemed incredibly ancient. We were on an Aircraft >Carrier, and to the best of our knowledge nothing was still using core. Until recently (or maybe still, I'm not sure) all spacecraft had to use core to prevent data changes caused by cosmic particles. A lot of space rated core still shows up in the surplus around here (30 miles from KSC.) Joe > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jan 30 06:20:28 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 In-Reply-To: <199801300513.AAA70512@f01n05.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980130062028.006d5120@swbell.net> At 12:10 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that >it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? > >A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back >says it requires a 286. > >So whats the deal? > Les, IIRC Windows 2.x was the last to support real mode. Windows 3.0 only had two modes, standard (286) and enhanced (386). Bob From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 07:21:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980129142132.46379eea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130072155.2ff71956@intellistar.net> At 07:03 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >>RE: Military course books, >> >> I don't know about the Navy but when I was in the USAF you could order >>the manuals for any course that they tought. This was free to anyone on >>active duty and I *think* to retirees. If you know anyone in the military, >>have them contact the base education office and see what's avilable. You > >Don't know about retirees, but that's a good point about active duty. > >>may even be able to get them from the US Government printing office. Tech >>manuals were available from them for many years, but I don't know if they >>still are. > >I'd forgotten about this, I think in the front of the manuals is a blurb >about how non-military can obtain them. The caveat being that they are >non-classified manuals. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Data >Systems Technician manuals were, but the rest I was talking about weren't. >I assume you also have to be a US citizen. > > Zane I suspect even some of those old manuals may still be available. The trick would be to get the proper part number to order. Considering how much computer equipment the government buys, this could be a treasure house of old manuals. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 07:24:04 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: back ontopic: mac 400k drive. In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980129130938.4a97b43a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130072404.48278ebc@intellistar.net> At 10:01 PM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 08:23 PM 1/27/98 +0000, you wrote: >>rather have a service manual that starts 'Take the HDA into a clean room >>and undo the cover screws (#1 in fig 4.2), lift off cover' etc than one > >The problem, of course, from the mfr's point of view, is that some bozo is >going to think "hmmm... Larry across the hall has a maid come twice a >month, I'll take it over there and..." and then they have to deal with 1) >repairing/replacing the drive, 2) losing a customer who thinks they should >fix it under warranty. That's why they void warranties of stuff that's been tampered with. Face it, for everyone of us that knows something about computers there's a thousand bozos with a screwdriver. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 07:30:14 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <34D15280.2038@konnections.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980128234945.009b3320@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130073014.482795a4@intellistar.net> At 09:09 PM 1/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >The GPO catalog listed some computer training stuff, I believe part of >it military. Anyone can order it. > >For the most part, the military has moved away from "For Official Use >Only" on manuals and such, if it doesn't say that, distribution is >pretty much unlimited to all... > >Most of this stuff is pretty innocuous, community college stuff (or high >school, I guess). > FWIW when I wrote tech manuals for US Army, they had to written to a 10 th grade level! Navy were written to about a 12 th grade level and Canadian Army to a good technician level (high school plus some experience). Joe From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jan 30 06:37:02 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions Message-ID: <9800308861.AA886192936@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect the real collectables will be the really obscure machines - > development systems, parallel machines, experimental machines, etc. No > idea if any will ever turn up second-hand, alas. Whyever not? You got a DAP didn't you? Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jan 30 06:34:43 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9800308861.AA886192933@compsci.powertech.co.uk> I started a lot of debate when I wrote: > Worth a try then. But am I right in thinking that the AT doesn't > implement all the 286 modes properly? I'm sure the XT286 doesn't. The two rumours I had heard are thus: 1. The AT had been deliberately set up so that it couldn't make one of the transitions between modes - IBM were being paranoid and thinking of crackers having a back door - but this "feature" was removed in the PS/2. This is obviously a garbled version of the things you've all been telling me about 286s and the AT having to reset itself from time to time. Thank you for clearing this up. 2. Intel had a fault on a large batch of 286s that couldn't do some of the things you'd expect. IBM bought a job lot on the cheap and stuck them in XT286s. Can anyone tell me the origin of this latter rumour? Has it now been discredited? BTW What is Warp? Is it the OS/2 windowing system? If so, why would I want to use it at all, let alone on a 286? ;-) Philip. PS *** Off Topic *** I stand corrected. Uncle Roger is quite right about triangular manhole covers. However I don't know whether this still holds up (pun intended) if you have rounded corners and a thickness that is not negligible as well as the lip to support the cover in its normal position. I don't intend to try it to find out. Whoever posted that rather silly message about System/36 was right - this discussion has probably gone on too long. I will leave you with a thought: Make the cover a triangle, but with the sides arcs of circles centred on the opposite corner. (This works for any odd number of sides, like the 50p coin I mentioned earlier) P. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jan 30 06:42:30 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: More stuff Message-ID: <9800308861.AA886193293@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Also got a strange Commodore cable. It has what looks like a double > ended HP-IB connector one end and a card edge connector on the other. All > the connectors have 24 contacts. Both ends have a heavy braided ground > strap. It looks like it's about 2 foot long. Any one know what this is for? It is a Commodore PET GPIB (HPIB) cable. Most PETs didn't have the standard GPIB connector (the 8032SK being the only exception I can call to mind) but had a 24 pin edge connector instead. The pinout is the same; pin spacing is 0.156 inch. The "Parallel User Port" (some useful lines from the 6522 VIA plus some diagnostic type stuff and video out) was a similar connector with keyways in different places. The 8032SK used a GPIB type connector for this as well, which I found very annoying when trying to connect one to a friend's BBC micro... but I digress. (BTW can anyone confirm: is 0.156 inch _really_ 0.156 inch or is it 5/32 inch?) Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jan 30 06:45:02 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Update on finds Message-ID: <9800308861.AA886193473@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > Sun SPAREprinter model QA-6, anyone know how to do a self > > print test on this unit I can not find any buttons or anything; > > It will not do much unless you have it connected to a SPARCstation > running NeWSprint. The SPARCstation also requires a special S-bus card to > interface to the printer. > > In other words, you have either a worthless printer, or a good excuse to > go get yourself a SPARCstation. Oh, come off it! Surely there must be some way of finding out the protocol and building an interface and/or writing drivers for another machine! Which reminds me - I have a couple of Diablo 630 printers with ECS daisywheels which have strange edge connectors on the back. I am told this is a Qume Sprint 3 interface - has anyone got a technical spec.? Philip. From cgregory at lrbcg.com Fri Jan 30 07:20:08 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Point Four, Anadex, C-64 questions Message-ID: <00e401bd2d81$dc52ffe0$b927a2ce@cliffgre> At the thrifts they are always priced at $50. or greater. The Adam is three pieces, and two of the pieces are on the large size. Those doing the pricing at the thrifts seem to equate size (and number of pieces) with price, so these systems tend to be priced higher than average. If you want one and can find one locally for $50 or less, then you should probably grab it. You can find them advertised on the net for less, but the shipping costs will kill any savings. BTW, don't make the mistake of leaving the printer behind if the pieces happen to be priced separately. The power supply for the computer is in the printer so you need it to power the system. Also the data tapes are non-standard and are becoming harder to come by. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 3:43 AM Subject: Re: Point Four, Anadex, C-64 questions >At 08:36 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >>> Also, what's a fair price for a Coleco Adam system: 2 keyboards, memory >>> box with datacassette drives, external numeric keypad with knob (paddle?), >>> and printer. >> >>$25 - $30 as long as it works. > >I have to disagree here... I'd say $50-75, possibly as high as $100 with >the extra parts, depending on how badly one wants one. (Again, assuming >it's working.) Mind you, that's what I'd feel comfortable selling it, >wihtout feeling like I'd ripped someone off. I don't know if I'd pay that >much right now, but catch me in a good month... > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 08:33:27 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980129220426.0106ebb0@pop.batnet.com> References: <199801300513.AAA70512@f01n05.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130083327.466f16e4@intellistar.net> At 10:04 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 00:10 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that >>it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? >>A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back >>says it requires a 286. >>So whats the deal? > >Deal is, you can't run Windows 3.x on any processor that doesn't have >protected mode. I think the last Windows you could run on an XT was 2.1. > I saw a package of Win 2.0 in a surplus store here if anyone really wants it I'll pick it up. No docs just the set of disks. Joe >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html >Computer History Association of California > > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 30 07:40:26 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <01bd2d84$9f7acc80$LocalHost@hotze> >BTW What is Warp? Is it the OS/2 windowing system? If so, why would I >want to use it at all, let alone on a 286? ;-) Yes, it is. Actually, if I remember, it came out in 1994, but it could have been early 1995, but definately PRE WINDOWS '95! You might want to use it for several reasons: If you've got software for it. There's WordPerfect for Warp, Netscape Navigator for Warp, amongst others. Actually, if you ask me, Warp's more of a competitor to NT than '95, as it's definately not consumer-oriented. It features a *nice* plug and play system. Actually, the interface on the older Warp's looks AMAZINGLY like Windows '95, which makes me wonder if it was copied, and who copied who. Theoretically, IBM's designing a completely new version of OS/2 Warp, called 'Bluebird' or something. This is a guess, but it's probably going to be NT as well as '95 compatible, plus rock-solid stability, much better than NT. The reason that we're using Windows as opposed to OS/2 is (in my opinion) because IBM did two things: With Windows 3.0 and 3.1, they waited until AFTER the MS release, and made it Windows compatible. They had relatively high success, but they weren't happy with it. So, with the 32 bit version, they released BEFORE Windows, but ruined all their success. The advantage is that if you want to run Windows 3.x apps with the current version of OS/2, you get 32 bit performance, compatiblity, and many of the features of a "next-generation" operating system. It's a good alternitive for people who want a Windows look and feel, but without the "Microsoft" beofore the name. I could be wrong on most/all of this, so please feel free to correct me. Hope that his helps, Tim D. Hotze From kroma at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 30 07:55:05 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 Message-ID: <009f01bd2d86$ac327f20$64f8430a@kroma-i> >I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that >it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? > It's not documented and MS never mentioned it, but yes it will work on an XT. -- Kirk From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 30 03:11:49 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 In-Reply-To: <009f01bd2d86$ac327f20$64f8430a@kroma-i> Message-ID: <199801301405.JAA05470@mail.cgocable.net> > >I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that > >it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? > > > It's not documented and MS never mentioned it, but yes it will work on an > XT. > > -- Kirk Oh yeah, that is right. Did that on Zenith Eazy PC w/ miniscribe noisy 20mb hd. Slow and chunky. :-P I guess it was because of wrong combination, CGA, and cpu that made win 3.0 unsuitable for this regeard. What's good if the graphics is not that great as Sparkys and it's illks w/ hi-res displays? Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 09:16:48 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: More stuff In-Reply-To: <9800308861.AA886193293@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130091648.48275b1e@intellistar.net> At 12:42 PM 1/30/98 GMT, you wrote: >> Also got a strange Commodore cable. It has what looks like a double >> ended HP-IB connector one end and a card edge connector on the other. All >> the connectors have 24 contacts. Both ends have a heavy braided ground >> strap. It looks like it's about 2 foot long. Any one know what this is for? > >It is a Commodore PET GPIB (HPIB) cable. Most PETs didn't have the >standard GPIB connector (the 8032SK being the only exception I can call >to mind) but had a 24 pin edge connector instead. The pinout is the >same; pin spacing is 0.156 inch. > >The "Parallel User Port" (some useful lines from the 6522 VIA plus some >diagnostic type stuff and video out) was a similar connector with >keyways in different places. The 8032SK used a GPIB type connector for >this as well, which I found very annoying when trying to connect one to >a friend's BBC micro... but I digress. > >(BTW can anyone confirm: is 0.156 inch _really_ 0.156 inch or is it 5/32 >inch?) > >Philip. > Thanks for the info. I thought maybe that's what it was. FWIW this one has keys between pins 3/4 and 10/11. RE 0.156 vs 5/32. There's not a lot of difference 5/32 = 0.15625 so there's only .00025 difference. I expect the manufacturing tolerences are greater than that. Joe From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 08:32:20 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 In-Reply-To: <199801301405.JAA05470@mail.cgocable.net> References: <009f01bd2d86$ac327f20$64f8430a@kroma-i> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980130093220.007e7c00@netpath.net> At 09:11 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote: >Oh yeah, that is right. Did that on Zenith Eazy PC w/ >miniscribe noisy 20mb hd. Slow and chunky. :-P I guess it was I've got Windows 1.0 running off one 720k floppy, with 150k free for data storage. I run it on my GRiDCASE 3 laptop (8086/512k/gas plasma CGA/DOS 2.11 in ROM) I basically did it to see if it come be done. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 30 08:46:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 Message-ID: <199801301446.AA19005@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Windows 3.0 will _not_ work on anything less than a 286. Or in my > experience on a 286 with an 8-bit bus (Tandy TL/2). Unless there's > a trick I missed. (Yes, I had the CGA drivers at hand). Funny you mention that... I was following this thread trying to remember if it was an SL/2 or TL/2 that I ran Windows 3.0 on. I'm pretty sure it was a TL/2, but it was one of the two for sure. So... I don't remember if there was a 'trick', but Windows 3.0 definitely will run on an 8-bit bus machine. ttyl srw From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 30 09:15:48 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <199801301515.AA17815@world.std.com> <1. The AT had been deliberately set up so that it couldn't make one of At 09:46 AM 1/30/98 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: > >< > >As best we could figure it may be a later version kit that does not have a >MDA/herc driver or some such. My copy of 3.000A does run on XTs and is >installed on a DTC turboXT so it runs in my lifetime. I didn't say it >would be fast. FYI a fast disk really helps. > Well, the sticker on the top says that it is version 3.00(3.5) but it does say that it will support CGA or Hercules so I might be in luck. Had an AT&T 6300 sitting around and thought it might be neat to run it on this. It's got an old Micropolis 40 megger on it thats pretty much empty. (Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really cool??) On a different note, the monitor I have is an AT&T model as well that "shows up" as a CGA but looks a hell of a lot like EGA. Is it some kind of "Super CGA" that wasn't really supported by anyone? Les From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 30 10:59:47 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 Message-ID: <01bd2da0$7888f220$LocalHost@hotze> >(Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really >cool??) Yep. I think that some sound like "lasers" or optical devices of some sort. Still make me feel like I'm living in the future. Tim D. Hotze From engine at chac.org Fri Jan 30 10:40:44 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <9800308861.AA886192933@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980130084044.010647c0@pop.batnet.com> At 12:34 1/30/98 GMT, you wrote: >BTW What is Warp? Is it the OS/2 windowing system? If so, why would I >want to use it at all, let alone on a 286? ;-) Warp is OS/2v3. You couldn't use it on a 286, but if you had, say, a 486/33 -- do pardon me for mentioning a nine-year-old part -- it would begin to be worth playing with. My copy of Warp is still very much to hand, and I think anyone who can scrounge up an appropriate computer should run it (for a while) if they have the opportunity, because it's a real education. ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis! From engine at chac.org Fri Jan 30 11:04:53 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: Warp versus Win (was: Development, round II) warning; off-topic In-Reply-To: <01bd2d84$9f7acc80$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980130090453.010d2240@pop.batnet.com> At 16:40 1/30/98 +0300, Hotze wrote: > >The advantage is that if you want to run Windows 3.x apps with the current >version of OS/2, you get 32 bit performance, compatiblity, and many of the >features of a "next-generation" operating system. Yes, but -- you need an AWFUL lot of horsepower to run Win 3.x apps under Warp. Win 3.x apps are slower under OS/2v3 than they are under NT 3.51. And you can't run Win95 apps at all, which would stick one with (e. g.) MS-Word v6. The last native OS/2 version of Microsoft Word is at the revision level of DOS version 5.0. >It's a good alternative for people who want a Windows look and feel, but >without the "Microsoft" before the name. And have a fair amount of cash. When I was running Warp, the cheapest fax applet I could find (that worked) was US$129. With Win95, fax is free in the box, and with WinNT it's a free download. At that time a functional TCP/IP for OS/2 was also pretty pricey, although I know that's not true any more. But the good thing about OS/2 (that too few people realize) is that _you're really looking at the operating system._ WinNT's DOS is a separate executable; WinNT's "Windows" is an emulation. There is NO NT32 command prompt, and that drives some people nuts. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 11:14:57 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:35 2005 Subject: CGA Modes (Wuz: Win 3.0) In-Reply-To: <199801301653.LAA59630@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980130121457.007fb380@netpath.net> At 11:50 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >Is it some kind of "Super CGA" that wasn't really supported by anyone? I know some game companies "tweaked" certain memory registers or something so that standard CGA could do 320x200x16 colors, but as far as I'm aware, there was only 320x200x4 and 640x400x2 for CGA, 640x400x16 for EGA, and of course 320x200x256 for MCGA. (The latter was what my Compact IBM PS/2 Mac wannabe had) - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 11:23:45 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 References: Message-ID: <34D20CA1.A42EEE4F@cnct.com> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Windows 3.0 will _not_ work on anything less than a 286. Or in my > > experience on a 286 with an 8-bit bus (Tandy TL/2). Unless there's > > a trick I missed. (Yes, I had the CGA drivers at hand). > > Funny you mention that... I was following this thread trying to remember > if it was an SL/2 or TL/2 that I ran Windows 3.0 on. I'm pretty sure it > was a TL/2, but it was one of the two for sure. So... I don't remember if > there was a 'trick', but Windows 3.0 definitely will run on an 8-bit bus > machine. Guess I'll have to dig the beast out of the closet and try again. As I recall, when I was trying it I was distracted by doing my first Linux install on my 386/25 (12+" stack of floppies), and wasn't giving the TL/2 my full attention. It's been awhile, so of course I don't remember the error messages I got. It's on the "to do" list, but not exactly the top priority. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 11:31:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <3.0.5.32.19980130084044.010647c0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <34D20E66.14E27837@cnct.com> Kip Crosby wrote: > > At 12:34 1/30/98 GMT, you wrote: > >BTW What is Warp? Is it the OS/2 windowing system? If so, why would I > >want to use it at all, let alone on a 286? ;-) > > Warp is OS/2v3. You couldn't use it on a 286, but if you had, say, a > 486/33 -- do pardon me for mentioning a nine-year-old part -- it would > begin to be worth playing with. My copy of Warp is still very much to > hand, and I think anyone who can scrounge up an appropriate computer should > run it (for a while) if they have the opportunity, because it's a real > education. Runs just peachy on my old 386/25. Faster than Windows 3.1 did, not that that's a compliment. I will admit that I prefer it, though of course all of my high-end machines run Linux. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jan 30 11:40:40 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Win 3.0, the answer Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB207AE0F0A@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Well, here are the genuine system requirements for Windows 3.0 -- I'm pretty sure these are correct, since I wrote this KnowledgeBase article back in 1990 :) If you know how to get the secret credit screen, you can see my name on there... Let me know if you have any other ancient Windows questions. Kai Windows 3.0 Modes and Memory Requirements [win3x] ID: Q58317 CREATED: 31-JAN-1990 MODIFIED: 21-NOV-1994 3.00 3.00a WINDOWS PUBLIC | kbdisplay SUMMARY ======= This article contains information on the processor and memory requirements for the three different operating modes of Microsoft Windows version 3.0. These modes are real mode (similar to Windows/286 versions 2.x), 286 standard mode (also known as 286 protected mode), and 386 enhanced mode (also known as 386 protected mode). MORE INFORMATION ================ WIN.COM automatically starts up Windows 3.0 in the proper mode for the configuration. However, Windows may be forced into one of the three modes through the following command-line switches: Switch Mode ------ ---- WIN /R Real mode WIN /S or WIN /2 Standard mode WIN /3 Enhanced mode Notes ----- 1. All numbers below are approximate and may vary widely depending on the configuration -- for example, Windows device drivers chosen, DOS version, display adapter, etc. 2. 128K of extended memory is recovered from shadow RAM usage on COMPAQ 386 machines. 3. Memory requirements take into account memory that can be recovered from SMARTDrive (down to the minimum cache size specified). Real Mode Requirements ---------------------- 1. The requirements for WIN.COM to automatically start up in real mode are as follows: a. 8088 processor or above b. 384K of free conventional memory (393,216 bytes reported by CHKDSK) 2. The actual real mode requirements are the same as above. Standard Mode Requirements -------------------------- 1. The requirements for WIN.COM to automatically start up in standard mode are as follows: a. 80286 processor or above b. 192K of free extended memory c. HIMEM.SYS loaded in the CONFIG.SYS file 2. The actual standard mode requirements are as follows: Standard mode conventional/extended memory requirements are mutually dependent and are not fixed. A typical installation requires a minimum of 128K free at the DOS prompt to run standard mode, assuming sufficient extended memory is free. Standard mode requires between 384K and 512K combined conventional and extended memory to run (approximately). For example, if only the minimum 192K of extended memory is free, approximately 322K of conventional is required to run standard mode. However, if available extended is increased to approximately 208K or greater, only 128K of conventional is required. This example is intended to illustrate that the memory requirements are an interrelated, variable issue. Enhanced Mode Requirements -------------------------- 1. The requirements for WIN.COM to automatically start up in enhanced mode are as follows: a. 80386 processor or above b. 1024K of free extended memory c. HIMEM.SYS loaded in the CONFIG.SYS file 2. The actual enhanced mode requirements are as follows: See notes for standard mode, above, relating to the interrelationship of conventional/extended requirements. A typical installation requires a minimum of 182K free at the DOS prompt to run enhanced mode, assuming sufficient extended memory is free. Enhanced mode requires between 580K and 624K combined conventional and extended memory to run (approximately). Note that enhanced mode is able to start up in low-memory situations only because it provides virtual memory support; although enhanced mode may run in such situations, it may be extremely slow due to the large amount of disk swapping it must perform. ============================================================================ ==== Created_by: KAIKAL Edit_review: DANAS Edited: 01-FEB-1990 Modified_by: DAVIDE Tech_review: RANDOW Reviewed: 23-FEB-1990 > -----Original Message----- > From: lfb107@psu.edu [SMTP:lfb107@psu.edu] > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 9:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Win 3.0 > > > I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that > it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT??? > > A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back > says it requires a 286. > > So whats the deal? > > Les From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 12:32:58 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Ricoh-based laser printers In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980129223931.03694278@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Jan 29, 98 10:39:31 pm Message-ID: <9801301832.AA02149@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/ad5a69e4/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 13:09:06 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980130084044.010647c0@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at Jan 30, 98 08:40:44 am Message-ID: <9801301909.AA07907@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/60a0f98b/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 13:14:31 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980130071911.2ff71f5c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 30, 98 07:19:11 am Message-ID: <9801301914.AA03309@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/3529c933/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 30 14:05:34 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: DEC Sold to Compaq! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980130140534.00c30750@pc> With this news, one of my first thoughts was that if Compaq intends to make money by selling its servers to DEC customers, software emulators of old DEC systems suddenly become very, very important! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 30 14:05:17 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: toner cleaning Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980130140517.00c2dce0@pc> >Anyone here ever study >moon shining? Fasinating subject (except to Sam of course). Shore! And I can even tie these threads together in a relevant fashion. At a regular auction I'd once visit, I could pick up computer and video equipment for a song, and once I got a handmade, Prohibition-era copper still for $50, and met the guy whose grandfather made it. :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 30 13:36:42 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980130133642.00c2d720@pc> On my web site, I express my hopes to develop software to help rescue old cassette data by digitizing the tapes. I'm still hunting for specifications of the old formats. I just got a box full of Altair-era cassettes on loan. I plan to digitize them now and rescue the data later. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 14:18:58 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980130133642.00c2d720@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 30, 98 01:36:42 pm Message-ID: <9801302018.AA08599@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/cfa400a9/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 30 14:23:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) Message-ID: <199801302023.AA19242@world.std.com> References: <01bd2da0$7888f220$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <34d23d02.1273710@mail.swbell.net> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:59:47 +0300, you said: >>(Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really >>cool??) >Yep. I think that some sound like "lasers" or optical devices of some sort. >Still make me feel like I'm living in the future. I sold a drive (IIRC, a micropolis 85MB) that would spool up and then do a couple of "ching-chings" and worked fine. I tested the livin' daylights out of it; no problems, but many folks told me and the fellow I sold it to that it would die immediately. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri Jan 30 14:34:34 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: RCA 1802 In-Reply-To: <199801302023.AA19242@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199801302104.PAA18445@onyx.southwind.net> I have a very old e-prom programmer that uses this CPU. I'm hanging on to it as it's the only programmer I have that can handle 2708's! Jeff > > COSMAC VIP was a packaged game machine that could also run simple > programs using a very tiny interpreter (512 bytes) called CHIP-8. > I have the manuals for one along with other 1802 docs and a few 1802s. > Strange chip but made a fair stack machine. > > Allison > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 30 10:18:26 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 In-Reply-To: <34d23d02.1273710@mail.swbell.net> References: <01bd2da0$7888f220$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <199801302112.QAA10922@mail.cgocable.net> > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:59:47 +0300, you said: > > >>(Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really > >>cool??) > >Yep. I think that some sound like "lasers" or optical devices of some sort. > >Still make me feel like I'm living in the future. > > I sold a drive (IIRC, a micropolis 85MB) that would spool up and then > do a couple of "ching-chings" and worked fine. I tested the livin' > daylights out of it; no problems, but many folks told me and the > fellow I sold it to that it would die immediately. What about couple of hdd's that I have that made 'strange' noises? Priam 65mb makes pinging noise of a ping-pong dropping right after main motor finishes winding up to rpm. And onther one, miniscribe 3180E that screams that terrible loud whine if heads commanded to move from track to track rapidly. There another not so good noises of some hard drives that did warbled series of bird-like squeals then fades out as platters is spun up or down have too shiney platter landing/take off area. That is real killer sign of a failing hd. Oh, I had one die literally SCREAMING LOUD that could be heard next room over which I happen to be in while talking to boss! Hard to believe how much noise possible from little ST3144A hd. Jaosn D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 30 10:07:08 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980129173313.4a97b48c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199801302115.QAA22763@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Jan 98 at 22:01, Uncle Roger wrote: > Speaking of polygonical manholes, does anyone know where to get a copy of > turtle logo for older macs? Or, perhaps even better, a cartridge version > for one of the 6502 machines (Atari, c64, etc.)? (This is for my niece who > is probably about ready to at least watch logo pgms.) > The standard Atari ST came with Atari basic and Logo plus manuals. There should be oodles of them around. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 30 15:25:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Coleco Adam pricing In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980129233723.3fcf88c2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > >> Also, what's a fair price for a Coleco Adam system: 2 keyboards, memory > >> box with datacassette drives, external numeric keypad with knob (paddle?), > >> and printer. > > > >$25 - $30 as long as it works. > > I have to disagree here... I'd say $50-75, possibly as high as $100 with > the extra parts, depending on how badly one wants one. (Again, assuming > it's working.) Mind you, that's what I'd feel comfortable selling it, > wihtout feeling like I'd ripped someone off. I don't know if I'd pay that > much right now, but catch me in a good month... No way! Maybe $50 at the top end, but $75 is way too much. These are not common, but then they're not so rare either. And we're still talking about a hobby that is still in a relative infancy in that nobody (save for Haddock) has come along trying to enforce some pricing structure and rarity statistics on it, and therefore I price it based on a usability factor. I look at it as far as this: what would be a reasonable price if someone was trying to sell one at a swap meet? What would you expect to pay for an old-assed, obsolete computer with no current support that some guy had lying on the ground in a parking lot? For a Coleco Adam, I'd say that number is between $25 - $30. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 30 15:27:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Computone Port Card In-Reply-To: <34D18B1B.CA79EA4A@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Mike Allison wrote: > > > > Am I sure they're RJ11, no. They're physically the same jack with six > > live wires. But beyond that, how would I know??? > > RJ-11 is four wires. Standard phone jack. Incorrect. RJ-11 is a single pair jack. RJ-14 is two-pair. However, both are in the same form factor. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From go at ao.com Fri Jan 30 15:25:47 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: re disk drive noises (was Re: Win 3.0) In-Reply-To: <199801302112.QAA10922@mail.cgocable.net> References: <34d23d02.1273710@mail.swbell.net> <01bd2da0$7888f220$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <199801302128.NAA22720@office.ao.com> It's slightly off thread, but I had (actually still have but haven't used in a while) an old SA4000 14 inch 27 megabyte drive that makes "the devils own noise" when it's powered up. I remember the first time I applied power (had built my own interface/controller and was just about to try it for the first time.) There came such a racket! Like a dozen cats being skinned simultaneously! Seems the beast is belt driven and the torque required to spin is so great the belt slips for several seconds at startup (Shugart told me it was designed that way!) My first power up was for about 3 seconds before I sailed across the desk and hit the OFF switch. I've heard MAJOR head crashes that sounded more gentile. Anyway, about two thousand on/off cycles later, it still made the noise and still worked perfectly every time it was powered up. Gary. At 04:18 PM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote: >> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:59:47 +0300, you said: >> >> >>(Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really >> >>cool??) >> >Yep. I think that some sound like "lasers" or optical devices of some sort. >> >Still make me feel like I'm living in the future. >> >> I sold a drive (IIRC, a micropolis 85MB) that would spool up and then >> do a couple of "ching-chings" and worked fine. I tested the livin' >> daylights out of it; no problems, but many folks told me and the >> fellow I sold it to that it would die immediately. > >What about couple of hdd's that I have that made 'strange' noises? >Priam 65mb makes pinging noise of a ping-pong dropping right after >main motor finishes winding up to rpm. And onther one, miniscribe >3180E that screams that terrible loud whine if heads commanded to >move from track to track rapidly. There another not so good >noises of some hard drives that did warbled series of bird-like >squeals then fades out as platters is spun up or down have too shiney >platter landing/take off area. That is real killer sign of a >failing hd. > >Oh, I had one die literally SCREAMING LOUD that could be >heard next room over which I happen to be in while talking to boss! >Hard to believe how much noise possible from little ST3144A hd. > >Jaosn D. >email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca >Pero, Jason D. > From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 30 15:39:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > look inside your ][+ and see if you have a language card. if so, you have the > 64k needed to run prodos. the latest and greatest version of prodos 8 won't > run on a ][+ i think, only an enjanced //e. if you dont, you can only run dos > 3.3 i myself prefer both. i remember when prodos first came out and everyone > had an issue with the restrictive 15 character limit for filenames. that was > back before i worked with mess-dos and that 8.3 filename limit... The silliest thing they did was restrict spaces in filenames. You had to use a period instead. Blech. Its funny when you think about it. Intuitively and I'm sure without really think about it, Apple developed a very human interface with DOS by allowing one to save files with very readable names. Ie: "BIORHYTHM PROGRAM" or "PROGRAM TO BALANCE CHECKBOOK" (30 character limit). Then with ProDOS, they regressed into the function-forces-form syndrome by limiting filenames to 15 characters and requiring periods in place of spaces. Never let programmers design your human interfaces. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 15:59:51 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980130165855.006c41dc@netpath.net> At 02:34 PM 1/30/98 -0600, you wrote: > >I have a very old e-prom programmer that uses this CPU. I'm hanging >on to it as it's the only programmer I have that can handle 2708's! I may be in the market for an e-prom programmer soon. I've never operated one before, so I don't know everything that is involved, but I'm looking for something that I can use to first read the ROMs and then copy them. Something with a PC interface and software would be nice too. What's the price range on these units? I've never even priced them. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 16:03:20 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 30, 98 01:39:07 pm Message-ID: <9801302203.AA06817@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/85e20f0e/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jan 30 16:04:18 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: RD54 drive numbers. Message-ID: <13328428472.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Does anyonehave the numbers to enter for an RD54 to put in a MicroVAX 2000? II think I need the actual h/c/s numbers rathert than the MSCP ones in disktab... The RD53 is full of errors, and this '54 seems to be woorking fune, so I'll LLF it and see about installing. ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 16:08:54 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980130165855.006c41dc@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jan 30, 98 04:59:51 pm Message-ID: <9801302208.AA08300@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1269 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/6e9b4a27/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 17:21:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <9801301914.AA03309@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.1.16.19980130071911.2ff71f5c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130172118.476708f2@intellistar.net> At 11:14 AM 1/30/98 -0800, you wrote: > with core-on-a-rope programming. Pardon my ignorance, but what is core on a rope? From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 15:48:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 References: <01bd2da0$7888f220$LocalHost@hotze> <199801302112.QAA10922@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <34D24A92.598A803E@cnct.com> jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:59:47 +0300, you said: > > > > >>(Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really > > >>cool??) > > >Yep. I think that some sound like "lasers" or optical devices of some sort. > > >Still make me feel like I'm living in the future. > > > > I sold a drive (IIRC, a micropolis 85MB) that would spool up and then > > do a couple of "ching-chings" and worked fine. I tested the livin' > > daylights out of it; no problems, but many folks told me and the > > fellow I sold it to that it would die immediately. > > What about couple of hdd's that I have that made 'strange' noises? > Priam 65mb makes pinging noise of a ping-pong dropping right after > main motor finishes winding up to rpm. And onther one, miniscribe > 3180E that screams that terrible loud whine if heads commanded to > move from track to track rapidly. There another not so good > noises of some hard drives that did warbled series of bird-like > squeals then fades out as platters is spun up or down have too shiney > platter landing/take off area. That is real killer sign of a > failing hd. > > Oh, I had one die literally SCREAMING LOUD that could be > heard next room over which I happen to be in while talking to boss! > Hard to believe how much noise possible from little ST3144A hd. The old Radio Shack 8.4 MB drives had a nice friendly chirpy sound during accesses. I rather miss it. Of course, that same model drive also made the worst sound I ever heard. Due to the bad parts contract that Tandy made with Shugart, policy was for the Radio Shack techs to literally replace every other possible component twice before getting permission to get a replacement bubble (the drive assy itself). A repair center manager whom I will not name got so frustrated one time when he _knew_ the drive was bad that he took a video tape eraser (the heavy duty model that you don't allow in the same room as any software packages) and applied that sucker to the drive assy when it was at full speed. You have never heard such a squeal of agony from helpless hardware. (This was an 8" drive unit, BTW). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 16:10:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <9801301909.AA07907@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <34D24FDE.1A071A19@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > At 12:34 1/30/98 GMT, you wrote: > > >BTW What is Warp? Is it the OS/2 windowing system? If so, why would I > > >want to use it at all, let alone on a 286? ;-) > > > > Warp is OS/2v3. You couldn't use it on a 286, but if you had, say, a > > 486/33 -- do pardon me for mentioning a nine-year-old part -- it would > > begin to be worth playing with. > > And you'll have to pardon my ignorance of the Intel parts after the 8085, > but why wouldn't a 386 work if the 486 works? (Other than the speed > difference.) It has always been my impression that few OS's/applications > need whatever extra software features that differentiate the 486 from the 386. > (Of course, I also have no idea what these features might be. Ask > me about the difference between the 8080 and 8085 and I could go on > for pages...) If it will run on a 486, it will work (hard and slow) on a 386, except for some things like sound playback and such that absotively require a fast clock and cpu. This is assuming that the 386 has lots of RAM. I thought the main difference between the 8080 and 8085 was a matter of only a few added instructions, far less than the Z-80 added. The only 8085 machines I've directly dealt with were TRS-80 Mod 100s, so I've not examined the instruction set closely. (Well, this was the 80C85, and I don't think there was ever an 80C80, though that would be fun to work with). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 16:14:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <9801302018.AA08599@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <34D250A9.7503C305@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > On my web site, I express my hopes to develop software to help rescue > > old cassette data by digitizing the tapes. I'm still hunting for > > specifications of the old formats. > > OK, I'll build a web site this weekend that describes the Kansas-city > and Tarbell standards. Will this be useful? > > > I just got a box full of Altair-era cassettes on loan. I plan to > > digitize them now and rescue the data later. > > If you wanted to make some digitized fragments available, I'd gladly > make some guesses as to the format. > > I think your approach (digitize now, analyze later) is 100% the right > decision for old media. The more oversampling you do, the better! An excellent idea. Disk is now cheap, tape is now fading. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 30 16:17:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 References: <01bd2da0$7888f220$LocalHost@hotze> <34d23d02.1273710@mail.swbell.net> Message-ID: <34D2518F.F43AA2B0@cnct.com> Barry Peterson wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:59:47 +0300, you said: > > >>(Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really > >>cool??) > >Yep. I think that some sound like "lasers" or optical devices of some sort. > >Still make me feel like I'm living in the future. > > I sold a drive (IIRC, a micropolis 85MB) that would spool up and then > do a couple of "ching-chings" and worked fine. I tested the livin' > daylights out of it; no problems, but many folks told me and the > fellow I sold it to that it would die immediately. So how long has the guy you sold it to been using it? (I've had bad luck with the Micropolis 40MB drives in some AT&T 3B1s). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 16:38:26 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Military Computer Books (Waz: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980130172118.476708f2@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 30, 98 05:21:18 pm Message-ID: <9801302238.AA05806@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/e6916f43/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 17:38:09 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: toner cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980130140517.00c2dce0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130173809.44d75458@intellistar.net> At 02:05 PM 1/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Anyone here ever study >>moon shining? Fasinating subject (except to Sam of course). > >Shore! And I can even tie these threads together in a relevant fashion. >At a regular auction I'd once visit, I could pick up computer and >video equipment for a song, and once I got a handmade, Prohibition-era >copper still for $50, and met the guy whose grandfather made it. :-) > >- John Are you still using it? :-) Wanna sell it? or trade it for an old computer? (just to keep it relevent to this list.) Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 17:40:52 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980130133642.00c2d720@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130174052.44d77c52@intellistar.net> At 01:36 PM 1/30/98 -0600, you wrote: > >On my web site, I express my hopes to develop software to help rescue >old cassette data by digitizing the tapes. I'm still hunting for >specifications of the old formats. > >I just got a box full of Altair-era cassettes on loan. I plan to >digitize them now and rescue the data later. > If you succeed, I would be interested in getting copies of some of those old tapes for the Altair. I hope to get the stuff to connect a tape drive to my Altair soon. I have some of the specs for HP stuff. But that's probably newer than what you're looking for. Joe >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum > > From bmpete at swbell.net Fri Jan 30 17:43:37 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 In-Reply-To: <34D2518F.F43AA2B0@cnct.com> References: <01bd2da0$7888f220$LocalHost@hotze> <34d23d02.1273710@mail.swbell.net> <34D2518F.F43AA2B0@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34d36521.11544740@mail.swbell.net> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:17:51 -0500, you said: >Barry Peterson wrote: >> >> I sold a drive (IIRC, a micropolis 85MB) that would spool up and then >> do a couple of "ching-chings" and worked fine. I tested the livin' >> daylights out of it; no problems, but many folks told me and the >> fellow I sold it to that it would die immediately. > >So how long has the guy you sold it to been using it? (I've had bad >luck with the Micropolis 40MB drives in some AT&T 3B1s). I had it for >3 years, he had it for two more, now his grandson has it... So far, so good. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From KFergason at aol.com Fri Jan 30 16:58:29 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Update on finds Message-ID: <57093c91.34d25b17@aol.com> In a message dated 1/30/98 6:49:52 AM Central Standard Time, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk writes: > > In other words, you have either a worthless printer, or a good excuse to > > go get yourself a SPARCstation. > > Oh, come off it! Surely there must be some way of finding out the > protocol and building an interface and/or writing drivers for another > machine! > umm, the Sparcprinters are pretty useless without the card and the software. They really are dumb printers. I might have an old CD of NeWSprint, but then you might have licensing issues to deal with. Kelly KFergason@aol.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 13:37:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <00ba01bd2d2e$b32f50d0$62008fa8@osmoid> from "Andrew Gammuto" at Jan 29, 98 10:25:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 897 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/8a502cd2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 13:33:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: <34D1424F.74C3@konnections.com> from "Mike Allison" at Jan 29, 98 08:00:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1196 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/9e52ebc0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 16:17:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:36 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 29, 98 10:33:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/71fdf8f5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 17:02:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Ricoh-based laser printers In-Reply-To: <9801301832.AA02149@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 30, 98 10:32:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4096 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/af01f35e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 16:36:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: <9800308861.AA886192936@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 30, 98 12:37:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 550 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/53fcddfd/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 20:27:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980130165855.006c41dc@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130202754.2467b58c@intellistar.net> At 04:59 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:34 PM 1/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >> >>I have a very old e-prom programmer that uses this CPU. I'm hanging >>on to it as it's the only programmer I have that can handle 2708's! > >I may be in the market for an e-prom programmer soon. I've never operated >one before, so I don't know everything that is involved, but I'm looking >for something that I can use to first read the ROMs and then copy them. >Something with a PC interface and software would be nice too. What's the >price range on these units? I've never even priced them. > I bought one (that uses an interface card) attached to a Columbia portable and an EPROM eraser for $100. I bought another new that interfaces to a printer port for $25 at a hamfest. I had completely forgotten about having that Columbia until you asked about the programmer. Anyone know much about this computer? I've never used it for anything but EPROM programming, it boots and loads the programming program automatically. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 16:40:39 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Update on finds In-Reply-To: <9800308861.AA886193473@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 30, 98 12:45:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/2ea6a006/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 30 20:32:45 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <9801302208.AA08300@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.32.19980130165855.006c41dc@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980130203245.2467e0b6@intellistar.net> At 02:08 PM 1/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >If you want to build your own, find the 4-volume set of _Ciarcia's Circuit >Cellar_ (or find the corresponding late-70's issue of _BYTE_) and look >at some of his designs. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > Where can you get the 4 volume set? I'd like to have a set, I've always admired his work. Joe From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Fri Jan 30 18:47:24 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Stuff, while we're at it... Message-ID: <199801310145.RAA15143@mxu2.u.washington.edu> I'd be interested in the Mac stuff manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Fri Jan 30 19:09:56 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Off-topic again (Waz: Military Computer Books...) Message-ID: <199801310145.RAA09733@mxu1.u.washington.edu> However - we better watch our step as this is > a clip from email I received from the Sam Ismail about information like > this > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Once again, you've perpetuated off-topic non-sense thus 'Scuse me, but... No matter what the private differences...no matter the language used...perhaps private e-mail should stay private. I am uncomfortable at your sharing Sam's private opinions with everyone. Perhaps I'm defending Sam's feeling needlessly (Not meaning to do that, as Sam can do it himself without my unsolicited help), but defending my interests as well -- I, too send private e-mail to list members. If the discussion on this listserv continues to degenerate to that level -- and with the constant name-calling -- I, for one, will not feel that my interests are well-served by subscribing. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Fri Jan 30 19:12:22 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <199801310145.RAA09734@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > Speaking of polygonical manholes, does anyone know where to get a copy of > turtle logo for older macs? Or, perhaps even better, a cartridge version > for one of the 6502 machines (Atari, c64, etc.)? (This is for my niece who > is probably about ready to at least watch logo pgms.) > > At 01:06 PM 1/29/98 GMT, you wrote: > >indeed round because they then won't fall down the hole if you drop > >them. But other shapes share this property - triangular manholes are > > You may have triangular manholes (and, I assume, covers), but I disagree > with the statement that they won't fall in. (Mind you, they may not be > *likely* to, but that doesn't mean they won't.) > > Consider any regular (is that the right term?) polygon (i.e., all sides, > angles are equal). > > For an odd number of sides: imagine a line from an angle to the midpoint of > the opposite side. Imagine a second line, from that same angle to either > end of the opposite side. You've just created a right triangle (imaginary > lines, half the opposite side) wherein the first imaginary line *must* be > shorter than your second line. Put your first line parallel to the ground, > line up the manhole vertically above the corresponding second line on the > manhole, and drop. > > For an even number of sides: Do the same thing, only the reverse (opposite > angle and connected side, etc.) > > Oh, make sure there's no one down below before dropping *please* > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Fri Jan 30 19:30:36 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 Message-ID: <199801310147.RAA14866@mxu3.u.washington.edu> > I saw a package of Win 2.0 in a surplus store here if anyone really wants > it I'll pick it up. No docs just the set of disks. I'd love it, if it's super cheap. Thanks. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Fri Jan 30 19:14:28 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Interesting Find Message-ID: <199801310147.RAA10170@mxu4.u.washington.edu> (Sharp PC-7100) > Notice how the handle can slide towards the back so it's off-center? > Notice the little metal inserts along the top edge of the back? There's a > printer (I've only got one) that attaches to the back for portability. Didn't the IBM Portable (or convertible...whatever) do that? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 30 19:48:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions Message-ID: <199801310148.AA09052@world.std.com> < Actually, though, building a Transputer system is pretty easy. I did so IIRC they started officially calling it Warp with V2.0, the first release following the Microsoft/IBM breakup. Bob ---------- From: Kip Crosby[SMTP:engine@chac.org] Sent: Friday, January 30, 1998 10:40 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Re[4]: Development, round II At 12:34 1/30/98 GMT, you wrote: >BTW What is Warp? Is it the OS/2 windowing system? If so, why would I >want to use it at all, let alone on a 286? ;-) Warp is OS/2v3. You couldn't use it on a 286, but if you had, say, a 486/33 -- do pardon me for mentioning a nine-year-old part -- it would begin to be worth playing with. My copy of Warp is still very much to hand, and I think anyone who can scrounge up an appropriate computer should run it (for a while) if they have the opportunity, because it's a real education. ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 30 19:53:14 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980130203245.2467e0b6@intellistar.net> References: <9801302208.AA08300@alph02.triumf.ca> <3.0.32.19980130165855.006c41dc@netpath.net> Message-ID: >At 02:08 PM 1/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >>If you want to build your own, find the 4-volume set of _Ciarcia's Circuit >>Cellar_ (or find the corresponding late-70's issue of _BYTE_) and look >>at some of his designs. >> >>Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) >> > Where can you get the 4 volume set? I'd like to have a set, I've always >admired his work. > > Joe My guess would be luck. For example a couple months ago I picked up his "Build Your own Z80 Computer" at the local GoodWill for a couple bucks. Unless it's misfiled somewhere, the best bookstore that I'm aware of for this kind of stuff doesn't have any of these. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Fri Jan 30 19:36:13 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <199801310152.RAA10303@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > Nope, xt286 was a way to put a cheap system of slightly higher performance > out there using slower parts. ...as with the 8088 vs 8086 and 386SX vs DX From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jan 30 19:56:42 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Portables with printers attached (was Re: Interesting Find) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB207AE1190@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Ya, that was the IBM PC Convertible. There's a picture of one with the printer attached at http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/IBMPCConvertible.htm. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: PG Manney [SMTP:manney@nwohio.nwohio.com] > Sent: Friday, January 30, 1998 5:14 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Interesting Find > > > (Sharp PC-7100) > > > Notice how the handle can slide towards the back so it's off-center? > > Notice the little metal inserts along the top edge of the back? There's > a > > printer (I've only got one) that attaches to the back for portability. > > Didn't the IBM Portable (or convertible...whatever) do that? From kroma at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 30 19:58:49 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: 486 vs 386 (was Development, round II) Message-ID: <011801bd2deb$c6f8cac0$64f8430a@kroma-i> >And you'll have to pardon my ignorance of the Intel parts after the 8085, >but why wouldn't a 386 work if the 486 works? (Other than the speed >difference.) It has always been my impression that few OS's/applications >need whatever extra software features that differentiate the 486 from the 386. I believe the 486 was supposed to be just a 386 with a built-in math co-processor. Then Intel came out with the 486SX. Which was really just a broken DX, a 486 in which the built-in math co-processor didn't work. -- Kirk From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Jan 30 19:46:29 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Commodore Cable References: <199801300802.AAA18355@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <34D2829B.D2@goldrush.com> From: Joe Subject: More stuff [snip!] > Also got a strange Commodore cable. It has what looks like a double > ended HP-IB connector one end and a card edge connector on the other. All > the connectors have 24 contacts. Both ends have a heavy braided ground > strap. It looks like it's about 2 foot long. Any one know what this is >for? That is a PET to IEEE-488 cable, used to interface Commodore IEEE-488 Printers, Modems and Disk Drives to the PET/CBM, B-128 or P-500 series computers. They are getting hard to come by so if you think you may get a Commodore PET/CBM/B/P computer one day I would advise you hang onto it. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 20:03:08 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980130203245.2467e0b6@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 30, 98 08:32:45 pm Message-ID: <9801310203.AA02193@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 950 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/726b4b56/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jan 30 20:00:17 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Point Four, Anadex, C-64 questions In-Reply-To: <00e401bd2d81$dc52ffe0$b927a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980130200017.006b9740@pop3.concentric.net> There are a couple of great web pages for the Adam and one does repairs and has tons of parts. You can get the data tapes there. John At 08:20 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >At the thrifts they are always priced at $50. or greater. The Adam is three >pieces, and two of the pieces are on the large size. Those doing the >pricing at the thrifts seem to equate size (and number of pieces) with >price, so these systems tend to be priced higher than average. If you want >one and can find one locally for $50 or less, then you should probably grab >it. You can find them advertised on the net for less, but the shipping >costs will kill any savings. > >BTW, don't make the mistake of leaving the printer behind if the pieces >happen to be priced separately. The power supply for the computer is in the >printer so you need it to power the system. Also the data tapes are >non-standard and are becoming harder to come by. > >Cliff Gregory >cgregory@lrbcg.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >To: Cgregory >Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 3:43 AM >Subject: Re: Point Four, Anadex, C-64 questions > > >>At 08:36 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >>>> Also, what's a fair price for a Coleco Adam system: 2 keyboards, memory >>>> box with datacassette drives, external numeric keypad with knob >(paddle?), >>>> and printer. >>> >>>$25 - $30 as long as it works. >> >>I have to disagree here... I'd say $50-75, possibly as high as $100 with >>the extra parts, depending on how badly one wants one. (Again, assuming >>it's working.) Mind you, that's what I'd feel comfortable selling it, >>wihtout feeling like I'd ripped someone off. I don't know if I'd pay that >>much right now, but catch me in a good month... >> > > > > From bmpete at swbell.net Fri Jan 30 20:20:05 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: <01BD2DB7.F4702FE0@ppp-151-164-52-70.rcsntx.swbell.net> References: <01BD2DB7.F4702FE0@ppp-151-164-52-70.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <34db8a07.20990852@mail.swbell.net> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:41:15 -0600, you said: > >IIRC they started officially calling it Warp with V2.0, the first release following the Microsoft/IBM breakup. I have a copy of 2.0; it is not called Warp. That started with version 3. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 30 15:38:36 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: 486 vs 386 (was Development, round II) In-Reply-To: <011801bd2deb$c6f8cac0$64f8430a@kroma-i> Message-ID: <199801310232.VAA21112@mail.cgocable.net> > > >And you'll have to pardon my ignorance of the Intel parts after the 8085, > >but why wouldn't a 386 work if the 486 works? (Other than the speed > >difference.) It has always been my impression that few OS's/applications > >need whatever extra software features that differentiate the 486 from the > 386. > > > I believe the 486 was supposed to be just a 386 with a built-in math > co-processor. Then Intel came out with the 486SX. Which was really just a > broken DX, a 486 in which the built-in math co-processor didn't work. > > -- Kirk Not very much difference but 486 is really ahead in getting more of performance usually runs at least 1 cycle per instruction. The 386dx excutes instuctions all over the map between 5 and 15 (guessing). Example: 386dx/387 33mhz bit slower than 486dx 25. Remembering from years gone by in clone/brands world... First, before I'm done, for clock to clock cycles, 286 and 386 is no better at excuting instructions most of time usually but buyer opted for XT's and 286's because Intel was asking Too Much for 386, the 387 chip actually cost 2k at that time. This is why 386 is sooo late becoming popular when win 3.1 came out. At that time, in late 91s loads of users were still on XTs and we upgraded them to either 286 boards (286/20mhz PcMate yuk!) and once in awhile series of 386sx or rare 386dx for other upgrades. Within short time later about half a year boatloads of 386dx 33/40 and few 386sx thrown in now and then were sold for either pc and upgrades when the price is Right Thing. After 93-94ish, things lost their luste n' fun then became very common thing. (yawn) while we sold long series of 486 machines then P5 ever since. I have NOT remembered how CHEAP, useful real and good pc anywhere or when til now. 1~2k CDN gets you *VERY* decent complete P5 or PII machine with 14" color monitor now. I'm kicking PS/1 original 2011 because it has no hd and too little ram and it did sport 1k price tag but! That old days is very interesting time indeed! Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From william at ans.net Fri Jan 30 20:41:17 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hmmm.... I am not convinced. For one thing, what defines a particular > 'no-name' PC? The motherboard isn't even standard in some of the ones > that I've seen... Yes, but so were many of the parts to the old radios. Many are complete nonames - many are even homebrews. > Well, some people collect radios for their appearance - look at the > high-priced Catalin sets. Personally, I collect the radios with > interesting circuitry or unusual electronic features. Who knows, maybe the trend towards curvy cases (one look I really hate, and have to thank Sun repeated for resisting) and pastels will be hot stuff in the future. Yes, I think the technically interesting computers (and radios) will always be at least somewhat popular to those that appreciate the innards. That is why I tend to like IBM mainframes - the look like _nothing_ from the outside, but inside they are pure magic. > I like all my computers to be working, and PC's, especially laptops are > next-to-impossible to repair. It's much easier to repair an old radio - > just about the only custom parts will be coils and transformers, and those > can be rewound quite easily. There's no way you can replace an ASIC in a > laptop, even if you can figure out what the specifications should be. It may prove to be an interesting problem. Perhaps old chips will have definite market values just like tubes and valves. Vintage CRTs fall into the same boat - once dead, you either rebuild them (only a few people can do this, and it will cost you dearly), or you find a replacement thru the collectors network. > Argh!!!. I wish I'd been offered a thing like that.... Somehow I'd have > afforded it. As it is, I have to make do with a not-quite-classic AMT DAP > 500 with a faulty PSU... I probably would have coughed up that $800 really fast. There are probably more Apple 1s left than CM-1s, 2s, etc. (all but the CM-5s, but how many people can store a 20 ft. long computer anyway?). William Donzelli william@ans.net From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Fri Jan 30 20:49:36 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <9801310203.AA02193@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.1.16.19980130203245.2467e0b6@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 30, 98 08:32:45 pm Message-ID: >Also, don't forget that _Circuit Cellar INK_ is still being published. >Check out (where else?) http://www.circuitcellar.com/ I've picked up a couple of issues in the past few months, it's an interesting magazine, but mostly aimed towards embedded computer systems(who doesn't wany a 386dx with 8MB RAM, built in interfaces for just about anything and DOS 6.22 in ROM?). Lots of info on those funny embedded systems and fun stuff like the PICs and BASIC stamps. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 20:56:49 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980130214255.00707bac@netpath.net> At 02:08 PM 1/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >If you want to build your own, find the 4-volume set of _Ciarcia's Circuit >Cellar_ (or find the corresponding late-70's issue of _BYTE_) and look >at some of his designs. Heck, if I could do all that, I wouldn't be asking about them. :) I never got into electronics too much, just one class in high school, and I have big clumsy hands when it comes to soldering irons. But thanks to everyone for providing information on this subject. Who knows? Maybe once I get a programmer, I'll start burning my hands again. :) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 20:56:51 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980130214614.006c545c@netpath.net> At 08:27 PM 1/30/98, you wrote: >portable and an EPROM eraser for $100. I bought another new that >interfaces to a printer port for $25 at a hamfest. Hey, I'm going to the Charlotte, NC Hamfest in March. Maybe I'll pick one up then. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 20:56:52 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Dumpster Safari! (Stil: Off-topic...) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980130215619.006c7f04@netpath.net> At 01:21 AM 1/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >I don't know of any *real* military surplus stores around SF anymore; >though you'd think there would be some, what with Mare Island Naval >ShipYard, Treasure Island, Alameda (Nuclear Wessels!), The Presidio, etc. > >There are a few electronics surplus stores around, especially down in the >(silicon) valley. I wasn't into computers at the time (I was 6 or 7) But my father used to take me on Dumpster Safaris at Charleston Naval Base, where he worked (civilian). Man, they used to throw out all sorts of stuff, some of it just had a few scratches on it. I remember seeing oscilloscopes, radio gear, terminals, tools, office furniture, you could live in one of those dumpsters (Hey, I was 6. I didn't have great expectations.) My big thing back then was swapping wires on connections, juicing it up, and see what explodes. Now I'm all grown up! :) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 21:07:19 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Dumpster Safari! (Stil: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980130215619.006c7f04@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jan 30, 98 09:56:52 pm Message-ID: <9801310307.AA07841@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 530 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/d293d999/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 20:08:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: <199801310148.AA09052@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 30, 98 08:48:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 483 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/f9d5b936/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jan 30 21:08:24 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Jan 30, 98 06:49:36 pm Message-ID: <9801310308.AA07582@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/a6237fa6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 20:06:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Ricoh-based laser printers In-Reply-To: <199801310147.AA09011@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 30, 98 08:47:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 900 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/509f4ddc/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 30 21:20:22 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Parallel ports Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980130184150.75c7c60a@ricochet.net> At 02:39 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Have you ever seen a Zenith "MiniSport"? Uses 2" floppies? I found [...] >do its upload and you've got at least one disk, you can probably >(don't count on it, but probably) attach a parallel Zip drive). Question: when did parallel ports become bi-directional (i.e., useable for zip drives and such)? Or, to put it another way, how likely would I be able to (ignoring software issues for the moment) hook up my new SyJet drive to say, my m100? What about my DG-1? (P.S., off-topic tip: The Parallel port SyJet is really a SCSI-2 SyJet with a fancy cable; if you've already got SCSI, and can maybe use the Parallel port feature...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From rexstout at ptld.uswest.net Fri Jan 30 21:20:31 1998 From: rexstout at ptld.uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980130165855.006c41dc@netpath.net> Message-ID: As long as we're talking about EPROM's, does anyone have info(connector pinouts, software, manuals) for the CST Triple Crown 700? I picked one up for $2 at a swap meet earlier this month but he didn't have the interface card or software. -JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 21:16:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 30, 98 09:41:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2498 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/c4331e90/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 21:23:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <9801310308.AA07582@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jan 30, 98 07:08:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/6776ea4c/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 30 21:45:59 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: re disk drive noises (was Re: Win 3.0) In-Reply-To: <199801302128.NAA22720@office.ao.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Gary Oliver wrote: > My first power up was for about 3 seconds before I sailed across the > desk and hit the OFF switch. I've heard MAJOR head crashes that > sounded more gentile. Anyway, about two thousand on/off cycles later, I wonder what a Jewish head crash sounds like? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 30 17:01:02 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Dumpster Safari! (Stil: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980130215619.006c7f04@netpath.net> Message-ID: <199801310355.WAA07227@mail.cgocable.net> > > I wasn't into computers at the time (I was 6 or 7) But my father used to > take me on Dumpster Safaris at Charleston Naval Base, where he worked > (civilian). Man, they used to throw out all sorts of stuff, some of it just > had a few scratches on it. I remember seeing oscilloscopes, radio gear, > terminals, tools, office furniture, you could live in one of those > dumpsters (Hey, I was 6. I didn't have great expectations.) My big thing > back then was swapping wires on connections, juicing it up, and see what > explodes. Now I'm all grown up! :) > > > -John Higginbotham- > -limbo.netpath.net- My former step-father took me to that dump often; Hoo boy! Done that and been there! :)) The dump belonged to a small miltary base nothing to write about, all you find is usual household stuff and rare office stuff. No hard goodie stuff seen. :( boo hiss! Only once, partially parted out dial-type wet-type toner copier. Threw few bad lightbulbs, some bounced about like basketball, some shattered on first impact or second. :) Sometimes we needed some parts to take and sometimes we used a spade to literally chop off thick bundle of wires to seperate the 2 parts. And endless supply of working top quality vacuum cleaners!?! Decent tear down, cleaned and taken care of ended up many perfect working condition stuff from there. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From dastar at wco.com Fri Jan 30 22:06:42 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I like all my computers to be working, and PC's, especially laptops are > next-to-impossible to repair. It's much easier to repair an old radio - > just about the only custom parts will be coils and transformers, and those > can be rewound quite easily. There's no way you can replace an ASIC in a > laptop, even if you can figure out what the specifications should be. Maybe not in this day and age. Who knows what wacky contraption some whiz will invent in the future which will allow just such a thing? (Perhaps it will be somebody among us here for just the purposes of restoring classic computers in the year 2050). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 30 17:14:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Update on finds In-Reply-To: References: <9800308861.AA886193473@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jan 30, 98 12:45:02 pm Message-ID: <199801310408.XAA09715@mail.cgocable.net> Big snip! > > > Which reminds me - I have a couple of Diablo 630 printers with ECS > > daisywheels which have strange edge connectors on the back. I am told > > this is a Qume Sprint 3 interface - has anyone got a technical spec.? > > I believe it's _similar_ to the Qume interface, but may be slightly > different. I have an older Diablo Hi-type with such an interface. The > machine it plugs into (A Diamond V word processor) has one of the cards > with pads for 2 different 50 pin connectors labeled 'Qume' and 'Diablo'. Oh man, I used to work on those Qume daisy wheel printers, oh, I hate that when I have to find a good usable cogged belts for those that shredded belts into brunch of strings from junked Qume printers They're very heavy and refuses to die aside from rare circuit failures also repairable easily. :) Yep, they have those adapters cartidges with interface cable attach with tons of switches on them. Has cooling fan on right side whirring away. They made funny rubbery stuttering noises when printing and shaking the table with it. Jason D. > > Of course Diablo may have also built printers with a Qume interface on them. > > >From memory, it's something like 22 bits, parallel. You specify the > character on the print wheel (7 bits?), the print hammer operation > (possibly several bits for different forces), the ammount to move the > carriage by, the ammount to move the paper by, etc. And there's a lot of > status lines for things like ribbon out, paper out, busy, etc. > > It's a pretty low-level interface. I will see if I can find at least a > pin-out for you... > > > > > > Philip. > > > > > > -tony Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Jan 30 17:21:32 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Development, round II In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01bd2d2e$b32f50d0$62008fa8@osmoid> from "Andrew Gammuto" at Jan 29, 98 10:25:22 pm Message-ID: <199801310415.XAA11236@mail.cgocable.net> > > > > If I remember correctly, IBM released the XT 286 when the second generation > > PC/AT (with a faster clock - wasn't it 8 MHz?) came out. It was my > > The second version of the AT motherboard came in 6MHz and 8MHz versions > (according to the schematics), although I've only ever seen the latter. > The main difference over the earlier version was the use of 256K DRAMs > (16 of them) rather than those strange piggybacked 128K DRAMs used on the > earlier board. > > There were changes to the BIOS as well, to handle more types of hard > disk, and so that it wouldn't moan about the faster CPU. > > > impression then that the XT286 was an XT case with the older original AT > > motherboard inside. > > > > AFAIK the old AT motherboard won't fit in an XT case. The XT-286 > motherboard is physically very different to any IBM PC/AT motherboard > that I've ever seen, although it's electrically very similar. > > -tony Actually, performance wise, XT-286 at 6mhz is exactly same as AT but mucho improved in designs and performs well compared to type 2 8mhz board due to 0 wait state. That makes it looks well-tuned machine using most of the parts using 6mhz cpu, 150ns ram. I approve of this for full 640K using standard 64k x 4, x 1 and simms. Also nice touch that XT 286 has 1.44mb support directly in bios instead of half-baked 512k or 256k ram. IMHO Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 30 21:30:03 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: 486 vs 386 (was Development, round II) Message-ID: <01bd2df8$84faa500$LocalHost@hotze> Actually, the 486 had different things that made it different from the 386. There's the math-co-processor (DX only), the .8 micron design, (on DX/2 50 and above only), as well as a built in floating point. There's also the ZIF socket on MOST (but not all) 486 motheboards, as companies were using their own designs, some with integrated chip, others with this and that, etc. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 5:34 AM Subject: Re: 486 vs 386 (was Development, round II) > > >And you'll have to pardon my ignorance of the Intel parts after the 8085, > >but why wouldn't a 386 work if the 486 works? (Other than the speed > >difference.) It has always been my impression that few OS's/applications > >need whatever extra software features that differentiate the 486 from the > 386. > > > I believe the 486 was supposed to be just a 386 with a built-in math > co-processor. Then Intel came out with the 486SX. Which was really just a > broken DX, a 486 in which the built-in math co-processor didn't work. > > -- Kirk Not very much difference but 486 is really ahead in getting more of performance usually runs at least 1 cycle per instruction. The 386dx excutes instuctions all over the map between 5 and 15 (guessing). Example: 386dx/387 33mhz bit slower than 486dx 25. Remembering from years gone by in clone/brands world... First, before I'm done, for clock to clock cycles, 286 and 386 is no better at excuting instructions most of time usually but buyer opted for XT's and 286's because Intel was asking Too Much for 386, the 387 chip actually cost 2k at that time. This is why 386 is sooo late becoming popular when win 3.1 came out. At that time, in late 91s loads of users were still on XTs and we upgraded them to either 286 boards (286/20mhz PcMate yuk!) and once in awhile series of 386sx or rare 386dx for other upgrades. Within short time later about half a year boatloads of 386dx 33/40 and few 386sx thrown in now and then were sold for either pc and upgrades when the price is Right Thing. After 93-94ish, things lost their luste n' fun then became very common thing. (yawn) while we sold long series of 486 machines then P5 ever since. I have NOT remembered how CHEAP, useful real and good pc anywhere or when til now. 1~2k CDN gets you *VERY* decent complete P5 or PII machine with 14" color monitor now. I'm kicking PS/1 original 2011 because it has no hd and too little ram and it did sport 1k price tag but! That old days is very interesting time indeed! Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jan 30 22:26:45 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <01bd2e00$714ea8a0$LocalHost@hotze> Well, a 15 character limit's not bad to me at all. Actually, I've gotten used to 8 with MS-DOS, which I still use when I want something DONE. Actually, I was wondering what the heck Microsloth was thinking when they made it 8 characters. And, the fact that in the next 5 FULL RELEASES (Counting only the .0's, 2.0 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 and 6.0) nothing was done about it. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Tim Shoppa To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 1:05 AM Subject: Re: Apple ][+ OS >> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >> >> > look inside your ][+ and see if you have a language card. if so, you have the >> > 64k needed to run prodos. the latest and greatest version of prodos 8 won't >> > run on a ][+ i think, only an enjanced //e. if you dont, you can only run dos >> > 3.3 i myself prefer both. i remember when prodos first came out and everyone >> > had an issue with the restrictive 15 character limit for filenames. that was >> > back before i worked with mess-dos and that 8.3 filename limit... >> >> The silliest thing they did was restrict spaces in filenames. You had to >> use a period instead. Blech. Its funny when you think about it. >> Intuitively and I'm sure without really think about it, Apple developed a >> very human interface with DOS by allowing one to save files with very >> readable names. Ie: "BIORHYTHM PROGRAM" or "PROGRAM TO BALANCE CHECKBOOK" >> (30 character limit). Then with ProDOS, they regressed into the >> function-forces-form syndrome by limiting filenames to 15 characters and >> requiring periods in place of spaces. > >Under Apple DOS 3.3, you can have anything in a filename you want. >Control characters, inverse/flashing, the works. Makes for some >pretty neat CATALOG listings, and is actually semi-workable as >a "security through obscurity" step (though every Junior High kid >knew how to bypass it...) > >DOS 3.3 made it easy and convenient to access filenames with embedded >spaces. Too bad Unix shell command lines are traditionally brain-damaged >such that spaces in filenames must be quoted. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 30 22:37:28 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: 486 vs 386 (was Development, round II) Message-ID: <199801310437.AA20072@world.std.com> <>And you'll have to pardon my ignorance of the Intel parts after the 8085 <>but why wouldn't a 386 work if the 486 works? (Other than the speed <>difference.) It has always been my impression that few OS's/application <>need whatever extra software features that differentiate the 486 from th <386. The 486 was a series in incremental improvents over the 386, caching on chip, more piplining and other changes to execute the same 386 instructions in fewer clocks plus the math processor as part of the same silicon. With the scaling of transistors and other logic changes it was effectively lower power and faster for the same clock as the 386 while functionally identical. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 30 22:37:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Ricoh-based laser printers Message-ID: <199801310437.AA20405@world.std.com> I'm trying to make a new, blank "master" RT-11 RK05 disk pack from a bunch of "user" disk packs. What files are considered to be part of the "base" operating system. Thanks again! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From lfb107 at psu.edu Fri Jan 30 23:22:22 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Win 3.0 Message-ID: <199801310524.AAA25692@f01n05.cac.psu.edu> At 11:43 PM 1/30/98 GMT, Barry Peterson wrote: >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:17:51 -0500, you said: > >>Barry Peterson wrote: >>> >>> I sold a drive (IIRC, a micropolis 85MB) that would spool up and then >>> do a couple of "ching-chings" and worked fine. I tested the livin' >>> daylights out of it; no problems, but many folks told me and the >>> fellow I sold it to that it would die immediately. >> >>So how long has the guy you sold it to been using it? (I've had bad >>luck with the Micropolis 40MB drives in some AT&T 3B1s). > >I had it for >3 years, he had it for two more, now his grandson has >it... So far, so good. >_______________ The Micropolis I stuck in my AT&T has been dropped twice and actually caught on fire once! Still works too... Believe it or not, chkdsk and scandisk both give it the 100% ok. Les From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 23:36:51 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: Parallel ports Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980131001653.0070f84c@netpath.net> At 09:20 PM 1/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >Question: when did parallel ports become bi-directional (i.e., useable for >zip drives and such)? I've seen bi-directional capability in the BIOS of a GRiD 286 desktop before. Before that, I can't really say. >Or, to put it another way, how likely would I be able to (ignoring software >issues for the moment) hook up my new SyJet drive to say, my m100? What >about my DG-1? That would be really cool, but sort of overkill, don'tcha think? I'd be happy with a 1.44mb or 1.2mb floppy on an M100. >(P.S., off-topic tip: The Parallel port SyJet is really a SCSI-2 SyJet >with a fancy cable; if you've already got SCSI, and can maybe use the >Parallel port feature...) "What about the parallel version of the EZFlyer 230?" He said, still quite untopically. -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jan 30 23:38:02 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:37 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980131002257.006ab594@netpath.net> At 08:06 PM 1/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >Maybe not in this day and age. Who knows what wacky contraption some whiz >will invent in the future which will allow just such a thing? (Perhaps it >will be somebody among us here for just the purposes of restoring classic >computers in the year 2050). I can see someone developing good enough VR that you'd be able to scan in about 20 different pics of a dead pc inside and out, throw some emulator code in the fray, and you'd be able to go under the goggles and actually use the system in VR. (It never would be the same as actually being there (at least not for a few years) but wouldn't it save a whole lot of physical storage space!) -John Higginbotham- -limbo.netpath.net- From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sat Jan 31 00:56:11 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: 486 vs 386 - the Intel definition (long) References: <199801310437.AA20072@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34D2CB0B.1270@digiweb.com> The following is taken form the Intel i486 processor databook dated April 1989 (oops, sorry, it's off topic!) Intel order number 240440-001, page 164. [Interstingly it seems thet the 486 was the first whose name was prefixed with 'i' from the heading below] 11.0 Differences between the i486(tm) Microprocessor and the 386(tm) microprocessor plus 387(tm) numerics coprocessor The differences between the 4866 microprocessor and the 386 microprocessor are due to performance enhancemnets. The differences between the microprocessors are listed below. 1. Instruction clock counts have been reduced to achieve higher performance. See Secton 10. 2. The 486 microprocessor bus is significantly faster that the 386 microprocessor bus. Differences include the 1X clock, parity support, burst cycles, cacheable cycles, cache invalidate cycles and 8-bit bus support. The Hardware References and Bus Operation Sections (Sections 6 and 7) of the data sheet should be carefully read to understand the 486 microprocessor bus functionality. 3. To support the on-chip cache new bits have been added to control register 0 (CE and WT) (Section 2.1.2.1), new pins have been added to the bus (Section 6) and new bus cycle types have been aded (Section 7). The on-chip cache needs to be enabled after reset by setting the CE and WT bit in CR0. 4. The complete 387 math coprocessor instruction set and register set have been added. No I/O cycles are performed during Floating Point instructions. The instruction and data pointers are set to 0 after FINIT/FSAVE. Interrupt 9 can no longer occur, interrupt 13 occurs instead. 5. The 486 mucroprocessor supports new floating point error reporting modes to guarantee DOS compatibility. These new modes require a new bit in control register 0 (NE) (Section 2.1.2.1) and new pins (FERR# and IGNNE#) (Section 6.2.13 and 7.2.14). 6. Six new instruction have been added: Byte Swap (BSWAP) Exchange-and-Add (XADD) Compare and Exchange (CMPXCHG) Invalidate Data Cache (INVD) Write-back and Invalidate Data Cache (WBINVD) Invalidate TLB Entry (INVLPG) 7. There are two new bits defined in control register 3, the page table entries and page directory entries (PCD and PWT) (Section 4.5.2.5) 8. A new page protection feature has been added. This feature required a new bit in control register 0 (WP) (Section 2.1.2.1 and 4.5.3). 9. A new Alignment Check feature has been added. This feature required a new bit in the flags register (AC) (Section 2.1.1.3) and a new bit in control register 0 (AM) (section 2.1.2.1) 10. The replacement algorithm for the translation lookaside buffer has been changed to a pseudo least recently used algorithm like that used by the on-chip cache. See section 5.5 for a description of the algorithm. 11. Three new testability registers, TR5, TR6 and TR7, have been added for testing the on-chip cache. TLB testability has been enhanced. See section 8. 12. The prefetch queue has been increased from 16 bytes to 32 bytes. A jump always needs to execute after modifying code to guarantee correct execution of the new instruction. 13. After reset, the ID in the upper byte of the DX register is 04. The contents of the base registers including the floating point registers may be different after reset. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sat Jan 31 01:10:20 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <9801270624.AA17889@forte.com> Message-ID: <34D2CE5C.4E5D@digiweb.com> Peter Prymmer wrote: > According to Goldstine in "The Computer: from Pascal to von Neumann" the > first working modern stored program was a sorting routine that John von Neumann > wrote in roughly 1943 - and had working on the ENIAC/EDVAC by 1946/47, but > it was in machine code (binary). Hmmm, the ENIAC had no program store (at that time) and EDVAC was not built till much later, 1952 according to my CCC. > An Assembler was available on the Princeton U/Institute for Advanced Study > EDSAC by the Fall of 1949. Herman Goldstine and John von Neumann wrote > programming manual for it by 1951. EDSAC was built in Cambridge (England) and was operational in May 1949. The IAS machine built in Princeton became operational in early 1952. The EDSAC team developed a coding practice that strongly resembled assembler code with relocation and linking. The "assembler" was built into the machine as a kind of ROM, it was less than 100 instructions long. Just to keep the record straight. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sat Jan 31 00:59:20 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: HP-85 found - non functional :-( Message-ID: <34D2CBC8.772D@digiweb.com> I recently received an HP-85 which was lying unused just next door! It is in good cosmetic and mechanical shape but unfortunately it is not operational. On power on, the indicator below the tape drive lights, but the main power LED does not and nothing appears on the screen.. I assume this indicates a PS problem. Can anyone send me a copy of the service (and user) docs for this machine? As always I would pay duplication and shipping costs. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From pvhp at forte.com Sat Jan 31 00:11:02 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801310611.AA15226@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: RE: Re[4]: Development, round II Bob Withers wrote in response to Kip Crosby who wrote in response to someone else: >IIRC they started officially calling it Warp with V2.0, the >first release following the Microsoft/IBM breakup. That sounds about right to me. I had read somewhere that there was a general Star Trek theme to code names for OS/2 and the first was "Borg" - but I may be wrong about that. I have floppy and CD-ROM boxes from IBM on the shelf above me that have the name "OS/2 Warp Version 3" on them*. OS/2 Version 4 was called "Warp Connect" to emphasize the ease of internet connectivity. The next version was to have a different Star Trek name altogether but I do not recall what it was supposed to have been. Peter Prymmer *for the curious: system requirements on the box for Warp 3.0 were listed as "Intel 386 SX-compatible of higher; 4 MB minimum of RAM" (<- widely regarded as a joke among OS/2 users who knew that 8 MB RAM was a minimally configured system). From pvhp at forte.com Sat Jan 31 00:16:26 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801310616.AA15422@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Re[4]: Development, round II Barry Peterson wrote: >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:41:15 -0600, you said: > >> >>IIRC they started officially calling it Warp with V2.0, the first = >release following the Microsoft/IBM breakup. > >I have a copy of 2.0; it is not called Warp. That started with version >3. The story that I read somewhere was that "Warp" was used internally at IBM. With version 3.0 they were explicit about it and put that name on the box. Peter Prymmer , From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 31 00:45:12 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: What files are RT-11 master distribution? In-Reply-To: <000301bd2e01$e8aae200$54987c0a@office1> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 30, 98 11:36:09 pm Message-ID: <9801310645.AA07623@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980130/77edd606/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jan 31 01:51:58 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <01bd2e1d$1bca1640$LocalHost@hotze> I'm actually interested in getting a copy of Warp. Is it true taht there's still another version coming out (I've heard rumors...) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Peter Prymmer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 9:17 AM Subject: Re: Re[4]: Development, round II >classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Subj: Re: Re[4]: Development, round II > > >Barry Peterson wrote: > >>On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:41:15 -0600, you said: >> >>> >>>IIRC they started officially calling it Warp with V2.0, the first = >>release following the Microsoft/IBM breakup. >> >>I have a copy of 2.0; it is not called Warp. That started with version >>3. > >The story that I read somewhere was that "Warp" was used internally at IBM. >With version 3.0 they were explicit about it and put that name on the box. > >Peter Prymmer > >, From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 31 02:06:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS References: <9801302203.AA06817@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <34D2DB75.6FB8CE39@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > > > look inside your ][+ and see if you have a language card. if so, you have the > > > 64k needed to run prodos. the latest and greatest version of prodos 8 won't > > > run on a ][+ i think, only an enjanced //e. if you dont, you can only run dos > > > 3.3 i myself prefer both. i remember when prodos first came out and everyone > > > had an issue with the restrictive 15 character limit for filenames. that was > > > back before i worked with mess-dos and that 8.3 filename limit... > > > > The silliest thing they did was restrict spaces in filenames. You had to > > use a period instead. Blech. Its funny when you think about it. > > Intuitively and I'm sure without really think about it, Apple developed a > > very human interface with DOS by allowing one to save files with very > > readable names. Ie: "BIORHYTHM PROGRAM" or "PROGRAM TO BALANCE CHECKBOOK" > > (30 character limit). Then with ProDOS, they regressed into the > > function-forces-form syndrome by limiting filenames to 15 characters and > > requiring periods in place of spaces. > > Under Apple DOS 3.3, you can have anything in a filename you want. > Control characters, inverse/flashing, the works. Makes for some > pretty neat CATALOG listings, and is actually semi-workable as > a "security through obscurity" step (though every Junior High kid > knew how to bypass it...) > > DOS 3.3 made it easy and convenient to access filenames with embedded > spaces. Too bad Unix shell command lines are traditionally brain-damaged > such that spaces in filenames must be quoted. Sorry, but what _else_ were we supposed to do to allow multiple filenames as command arguments? Use something else to separate words on the command line? No, I was not one of the original implementors of the Unix shell. However I don't know what the problem is. Say you've got three files in the current directory, "red", "green" and "red green". What is 'rm red green' supposed to do? I may not like the 14 character limit on filenames of the old *nixen (and spaces _could_ be imbedded in filenames if you knew how and wanted to piss off the sysadmin), but the space in the filename gave its life for a decent command interpreter. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 31 02:50:43 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster Safari! (Stil: Off-topic...) References: <3.0.32.19980130215619.006c7f04@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34D2E5E3.5C7F82B2@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > dumpsters (Hey, I was 6. I didn't have great expectations.) My big thing > back then was swapping wires on connections, juicing it up, and see what > explodes. Now I'm all grown up! :) It's more fun now. You can swap wires, juice it up and _know_ what explodes. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 31 03:06:21 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: re disk drive noises (was Re: Win 3.0) References: Message-ID: <34D2E98D.D8258051@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Gary Oliver wrote: > > > My first power up was for about 3 seconds before I sailed across the > > desk and hit the OFF switch. I've heard MAJOR head crashes that > > sounded more gentile. Anyway, about two thousand on/off cycles later, > > I wonder what a Jewish head crash sounds like? > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com And you bitch at the _rest_ of us for getting off topic? I thought the same thing but didn't want to get yelled at again. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 31 03:21:22 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS References: <01bd2e00$714ea8a0$LocalHost@hotze> Message-ID: <34D2ED12.B6B0C220@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > Well, a 15 character limit's not bad to me at all. Actually, I've gotten > used to 8 with MS-DOS, which I still use when I want something DONE. > Actually, I was wondering what the heck Microsloth was thinking when they > made it 8 characters. And, the fact that in the next 5 FULL RELEASES > (Counting only the .0's, 2.0 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 and 6.0) nothing was done about > it. They didn't have to think -- the filename was taken along with most of the command set from CP/M. And it screws up Unix databases that have to maintain compatibility with our brain-damaged users, even though Unix is no longer limited by our old 14-character limit on filenames (and even then, you had a choice where the dot went and could use more than one). -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 31 03:40:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Parallel ports References: <3.0.32.19980131001653.0070f84c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <34D2F189.FD8FE6E6@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 09:20 PM 1/30/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Question: when did parallel ports become bi-directional (i.e., useable for > >zip drives and such)? > > I've seen bi-directional capability in the BIOS of a GRiD 286 desktop > before. Before that, I can't really say. > > >Or, to put it another way, how likely would I be able to (ignoring software > >issues for the moment) hook up my new SyJet drive to say, my m100? What > >about my DG-1? I'd _love_ to be able to use one of my Zip drives with my Mod 100s, but of course I'd have to program a DOS -- not one of my skills. Wouldn't mind attaching one to my TRS-80 4p or 6000HD either, but I'm a mere Unix sysadmin these days who programs mostly in the shell and (I'm still learning it) PERL. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 31 04:03:44 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II References: <9801310611.AA15226@forte.com> Message-ID: <34D2F700.BB2AA06D@cnct.com> Peter Prymmer wrote: > > classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subj: RE: Re[4]: Development, round II > > Bob Withers wrote in response to Kip Crosby who wrote in response > to someone else: > > >IIRC they started officially calling it Warp with V2.0, the > >first release following the Microsoft/IBM breakup. > > That sounds about right to me. I had read somewhere that there was a general > Star Trek theme to code names for OS/2 and the first was "Borg" - but I may > be wrong about that. I have floppy and CD-ROM boxes from IBM on the shelf > above me that have the name "OS/2 Warp Version 3" on them*. OS/2 Version 4 > was called "Warp Connect" to emphasize the ease of internet connectivity. > The next version was to have a different Star Trek name altogether but I do > not recall what it was supposed to have been. Warp Connect was _not_ OS/2 4.0, it was still 3.x as was Merlin (I haven't bought it yet, the local stores no longer bother with IBM at all and I don't mail order software). OS/2 2.x was _just_ OS/2, the name Warp arrived with 3.0. I don't know what rumour mill came up with the "Borg" name, but it's total bullshit -- OS/2 predates that Trek concept by several years. > *for the curious: system requirements on the box for Warp 3.0 were listed as > "Intel 386 SX-compatible of higher; 4 MB minimum of RAM" (<- widely regarded > as a joke among OS/2 users who knew that 8 MB RAM was a minimally configured > system). Runs better than Windows 3.1 on a 386/25 with 4 Meg RAM. I assume the above quote was pasted from from somewhere, because you've never used it (OS/2) yourself. Remember, Windows 95 supposedly can run on a 4MB system, says my package. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From d_w_edwards at hotmail.com Sat Jan 31 05:26:27 1998 From: d_w_edwards at hotmail.com (David Edwards) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Sage IV microcomputer Message-ID: <19980131112627.21313.qmail@hotmail.com> Please, someone help me! I have acquired, free of charge, a Sage Iv microcomputer circa 1983. Specification is : 512K RAM, 12MB hard drive, 1 x 5 1/4 inch floppy drive. I need help with : Group A/B microswitch settings, cable to connect to the serial port of an Amiga A600, serial comms settings, and what I am likely to find on the Sage IV once it's up and running. So far, it appears sane (Processor light blinks meaningfully) but without a terminal connection, I'm completely in the dark. I really would like to get this machine up and running because it was my dream machine circa 1982/1983, and I lusted after one of these for years. Unfortunately I couldn't afford the £7,000 price tag (U.K./British prices - always worse than American prices!) so it remained a dream - until now! Anyone with the relevant technical expertise please e-mail me at: d_w_edwards@hotmail.com. HELP!!!! Thank you for your time and consideration. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Sat Jan 31 08:03:47 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster Safari! (Stil: Off-topic...) In-Reply-To: <9801310307.AA07841@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > As far as military surplus electronics goes, the end-all and be-all will > always be Fair Radio Sales of Lima, OH. They're even on the web now: > http://alpha.wcoil.com/~fairadio/ I have been there a couple of times, and while it is Mecca for the vintage (especially military) radio collectors, they have very little computer stuff. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sat Jan 31 08:14:39 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I can't see some ASIC off a PC card, which was only available as part of > that card _ever_ being available as a spare part, though. The only way to > get it will be as part of the machine. Very true. > I've not heard of _anybody_ who can make ASICs at home, and I personally > doubt that such people will ever exist. FPGAs! They are obviously here to stay now, and their densities keep getting larger and larger (and the packages smaller and smaller). And what about twenty years from now when Ronco starts selling the Tabletop ASICmaster for four easy payments of $29.95? William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Jan 31 08:43:24 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: What files are RT-11 master distribution? Message-ID: <001c01bd2e57$180a42c0$54987c0a@office1> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:45:12 -0800 (PST), Tim Shoppa wrote: >>At a very minimum, you need: >>SWAP.SYS >>RT11xx.SYS (where "xx" is SL, BL, XM, FB, or something else) >>TT.SYS (the console handler - not in RT-11 5.6 and later) >>RK.SYS (the RK05 handler) >>DIR.SAV >>PIP.SAV >>DUP.SAV >>FORMAT.SAV >>plus the handlers for any other devices you'll be using >>The full list of "distribution" files came printed in the RT-11 >>documentation for the version you're using, and varied from version >>to version. Which version are you using? When booting the disk pack, I get the following version info: RT11-SJ V04.00 What do the distribution docs look like? I have boxes of info that I haven't gone through yet. The guy I got the system from kept everything, so maybe he has it. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From pvhp at forte.com Sat Jan 31 09:34:14 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801311534.AA07334@forte.com> From pvhp at forte.com Sat Jan 31 09:35:34 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801311535.AA07393@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Re[4]: Development, round II Tim Hotze wrote: >I'm actually interested in getting a copy of Warp. Is it true taht there's >still another version coming out (I've heard rumors...) > Thanks, I have seen those rumours posted to this list. But OS/2 Version 4 is great - why wait? Peter Prymmer From pvhp at forte.com Sat Jan 31 09:36:06 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801311536.AA07413@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Development, round II Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Warp Connect was _not_ OS/2 4.0, it was still 3.x as was Merlin (I >haven't bought it yet, the local stores no longer bother with IBM at >all and I don't mail order software). OS/2 2.x was _just_ OS/2, the OK - I stand corrected. BTW Fry's in the SF bay area has been selling OS/2 4.0 for quite a while. >name Warp arrived with 3.0. I don't know what rumour mill came up >with the "Borg" name, but it's total bullshit -- OS/2 predates that >Trek concept by several years. That too is what I thought (I don't follow Trek things at all). !> *for the curious: system requirements on the box for Warp 3.0 were listed as !> "Intel 386 SX-compatible of higher; 4 MB minimum of RAM" (<- widely regarded !> as a joke among OS/2 users who knew that 8 MB RAM was a minimally configured !> system). ! !Runs better than Windows 3.1 on a 386/25 with 4 Meg RAM. I assume !the above quote was pasted from from somewhere, because you've never !used it (OS/2) yourself. Remember, Windows 95 supposedly can run on a !4MB system, says my package. I ran OS/2 v. 2 on a friends system (and helped him with the memory upgrade from 16 to 32 meg). I also ran the Rexx gopher server on version 3 (Warp) on a system with 16 Megs of RAM. I never ran Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 on either machine so I cannot make a direct comparison (Win NT 3.51 was running on the latter machine long enough to allow setting up the OS/2 installation). We also played around with the Voice control on a beta release of Merlin (thanks for reminding me of the code name) but that machine was eventually pressed into service running NT (I never saw it after that). The advice of "you should have more than 4 MB RAM" was taken from my friend (who is still quite the OS/2 zealot) and I thought that I had read it in the paperback version of the OS/2 FAQ as well - but I could easily be mistaken about that latter source. I am quite glad to hear that your performance was so good with only 4 MB - great OS isn't it? Peter Prymmer From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jan 31 10:32:45 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: What files are RT-11 master distribution? In-Reply-To: <001c01bd2e57$180a42c0$54987c0a@office1> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 31, 98 09:43:24 am Message-ID: <9801311632.AA07205@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/6c11e7f9/attachment.ksh From bmpete at swbell.net Sat Jan 31 11:13:32 1998 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Parallel ports In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980130184150.75c7c60a@ricochet.net> References: <3.0.16.19980130184150.75c7c60a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <34d35b35.4839716@mail.swbell.net> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:20:22 -0600 (CST), you said: >At 02:39 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >>> Have you ever seen a Zenith "MiniSport"? Uses 2" floppies? I found >[...] >>do its upload and you've got at least one disk, you can probably >>(don't count on it, but probably) attach a parallel Zip drive). > >Question: when did parallel ports become bi-directional (i.e., useable for >zip drives and such)? I thought they always were bi-directional on IBM-compats. I've run Laplink on almost every PC I've ever owned. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 31 12:17:59 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <199801311817.AA25997@world.std.com> >>Warp Connect was _not_ OS/2 4.0, it was still 3.x as was Merlin (I >>haven't bought it yet, the local stores no longer bother with IBM at >>all and I don't mail order software). OS/2 2.x was _just_ OS/2, the >OK - I stand corrected. BTW Fry's in the SF bay area has been selling >OS/2 4.0 for quite a while. Yes, but there is OS/2 Warp 4.0 Connect (or Connect 4.0), which has even more internet functions. >>name Warp arrived with 3.0. I don't know what rumour mill came up >>with the "Borg" name, but it's total bullshit -- OS/2 predates that >>Trek concept by several years. >That too is what I thought (I don't follow Trek things at all). The Borg were introduced in a single episode in 1988 or 1989. >!> *for the curious: system requirements on the box for Warp 3.0 were listed as >!> "Intel 386 SX-compatible of higher; 4 MB minimum of RAM" (<- widely regarded >!> as a joke among OS/2 users who knew that 8 MB RAM was a minimally configured >!> system). >!Runs better than Windows 3.1 on a 386/25 with 4 Meg RAM. I assume >!the above quote was pasted from from somewhere, because you've never >!used it (OS/2) yourself. Remember, Windows 95 supposedly can run on a >!4MB system, says my package. >I ran OS/2 v. 2 on a friends system (and helped him with the memory upgrade >from 16 to 32 meg). I also ran the Rexx gopher server on version 3 (Warp) >on a system with 16 Megs of RAM. I never ran Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 >on either machine so I cannot make a direct comparison (Win NT 3.51 was >running on the latter machine long enough to allow setting up the OS/2 >installation). We also played around with the Voice control on a beta >release of Merlin (thanks for reminding me of the code name) but that machine >was eventually pressed into service running NT (I never saw it after that). >The advice of "you should have more than 4 MB RAM" was taken from my friend >(who is still quite the OS/2 zealot) and I thought that I had read it in the >paperback version of the OS/2 FAQ as well - but I could easily be mistaken >about that latter source. I am quite glad to hear that your performance >was so good with only 4 MB - great OS isn't it? Actually, OS/2 is pretty good. The only problem is the price: $200 for a standard package. I think that the 4MB thing comes from a VERY BASIC INSTALL. Now, if I could see the OS/2 Warp Server with Windows NT 4.0 (or 5.0!) support, and the OS/2 Warp with Windows 95 (or 98) support, and have a 10% or better performance increase, that would probably get some heads turned, to say the least. Another great thing is 4.0's *standard* voice support. That (should) make(s) it popular in the disabled market. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jan 31 13:32:23 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <01bd2e7e$f4b98d80$a460bcc1@hotze> Well, it's not so much SPOILING as it is a privelige. Actually, I still name my documents using a relatively short filename (compared to those supported), like School 1.doc or English Report 1/31/98.doc, etc. not a short paragraph describing the file. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 9:21 PM Subject: Re: Apple ][+ OS > > >I'm spoiled with VMS that has had EIGHTEEN.EIGHTEEN, yes, 36 character >file and directory names. The problem is; > >VMS_C_COMPILER_NEW.VERSION_TWENTY_ONE can be a pain to type in. ;) > >Allison > From szewczykm at hcgi.com Fri Jan 30 14:35:21 1998 From: szewczykm at hcgi.com (Mike Szewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple //e Message-ID: > Some things that I would like to find are an Apple //e system, a copy of Networks II BBS, and a copy of Nexus BBS. I'm pretty sure that along my travels I will eventually find the Apple //e but I don't know if I have a chance of finding either piece of software. I've done a lot of searching on the web, but I haven't found anything. Does anyone have what I'm looking for, or are there any resources I may be missing? Thanks, Mike From pvhp at forte.com Sat Jan 31 16:33:27 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <9801312233.AA21909@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Apple ][+ OS Allison J Parent wrote: ! from "David Edwards" at Jan 31, 98 03:26:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/f18ed243/attachment.ksh From pvhp at forte.com Sat Jan 31 16:54:08 1998 From: pvhp at forte.com (Peter Prymmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Development, round II Message-ID: <9801312254.AA22746@forte.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subj: Re: Development, round II Tim Hotze wrote: !>>name Warp arrived with 3.0. I don't know what rumour mill came up !>>with the "Borg" name, but it's total bullshit -- OS/2 predates that !>>Trek concept by several years. !>That too is what I thought (I don't follow Trek things at all). !The Borg were introduced in a single episode in 1988 or 1989. OK clearly the rumour I reported was worthless as OS/2 dates from 87 (or do I have that wrong as well?:-) ! Another great thing is 4.0's *standard* voice support. That (should) !make(s) it popular in the disabled market. I knew a grad student who - in his twenties - had arthritis so severe that excessive typing for him was out of the question. The voice navigable desktop was of great benefit to him. Before that he used a collection of standalone apps including a wordprocessor (from IBM) that really did not impede his data input speed one bit. I asked him to "type" some latex as demo and was quite favorably impressed. I've heard some folks point to the current round of voice recognition software as being the final success of one of those long outstanding AI research problems. It is interesting to see IBM take such a "quiet" lead with it. Peter Prymmer From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 31 13:51:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Parallel ports In-Reply-To: <34d35b35.4839716@mail.swbell.net> from "Barry Peterson" at Jan 31, 98 05:13:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/8dab7d9b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 31 13:47:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 31, 98 09:14:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980131/639279ee/attachment.ksh From wpe at interserv.com Sat Jan 31 18:30:06 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS References: <9801312233.AA21909@forte.com> Message-ID: <34D3C20C.BC283E3E@interserv.com> Aaaah! What I always liked about VMS... Error messages that ACTUALLY TELL YOU SOMETHING! 8^) Will Peter Prymmer wrote: > classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subj: Re: Apple ][+ OS > > Allison J Parent wrote: > > ! ! ! > !I'm spoiled with VMS that has had EIGHTEEN.EIGHTEEN, yes, 36 character > !file and directory names. The problem is; > ! > !VMS_C_COMPILER_NEW.VERSION_TWENTY_ONE can be a pain to type in. ;) > ! > !Allison > > I seem to recall a .3 limit in an early version of VMS that someone I spoke > to who used to work for DEC recalls as well: was it as late as vms 2.0 perhaps > 3.0 even? > > At any rate under VMS 7.1 at least the limit has been further increased to > 39.39 as this little log demonstrates (apologies to folks if this gets MIMEd > beyond recognition): > > $ create 123456789012345678901234567890123456789.123456789012345678901234567890123456789 > Hello from 39.39! > ^Z Exit > $ type 123456789012345678901234567890123456789.123456789012345678901234567890123456789 > Hello from 39.39! > $ create 1234567890123456789012345678901234567890.1234567890123456789012345678901234567890 > %CREATE-E-OPENOUT, error opening 1234567890123456789012345678901234567890.1234567890123456789012345678901234567890 > as output-RMS-F-FNM, error in file name > > Hmm - I just tried that same thing on a VAX running 5.5-2 and was able to > create the 39.39 but not the 40.40 just as on the Alpha running 7.1. I am > not at home now so I can't test that on the uVAX running 5.4. > > As for directories - the following was done on the VAX running 5.5-2: > > $ create/dir [.123456789012345678901234567890123456789] > $ create/dir [.1234567890123456789012345678901234567890] > %CREATE-E-DIRNOTCRE, [.1234567890123456789012345678901234567890] directory file not created > -RMS-F-DIR, error in directory name > > Peter Prymmer From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sat Jan 31 15:30:28 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: re disk drive noises (was Re: Win 3.0) Message-ID: <199802010040.QAA01102@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > > sounded more gentile. Anyway, about two thousand on/off cycles later, > > I wonder what a Jewish head crash sounds like? > > Sam Parts are cut off. manney From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sat Jan 31 15:46:24 1998 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: WTB laptop Message-ID: <199802010041.QAA02247@mxu1.u.washington.edu> WTB cheapo laptop...anyone have 286 or 8088? Don't want anything collectible, just functional. I'd love a Grid -- do they run regular DOS? manney@nwohio.com From wpe at interserv.com Sat Jan 31 19:02:06 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Core etc. (Was:Military Computer Books) References: <9801302238.AA05806@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <34D3C98D.F256D75C@interserv.com> Speaking of "core on a rope", etc, I've read no mention of "memory drums", used on some airborne systems. I remember reading some "horror stories" about what happened when these things suffered various forms of mechanical failure... Will From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 31 19:28:42 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: TRW Acquisitions References: <19980131112627.21313.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <34D3CFCA.B2119328@rain.org> Since rain was forecast for today, the seller turnout was less than normal and pickings were a bit slim. However I did pick up a couple of interesting things. For $1 each, I picked up an Ampex core memory board (and gave it to a friend of mine, another collector), a Beckman S-100 microprocessor board, an Intel Multibus Single Board Computer 80/10A, and an Intel Multibus 80/10B card of some sort. The only reason I picked up the Intel Multibus boards was because they are were dated 1976 and 1985 respectively (and they were only $1 each!) I've picked up Multibus memory cards in the past for the same reason. I haven't checked out my Intel Development System and they may fit is a system like that. Anyone collect/save from scrap these things ... besides me:). I did get a lead on a guy who sells S-100 cards down there, but didn't have any this time. So, I'll make him a regular stop when I see him next time. The last time I saw his S-100 cards, they were priced at $5 each which is probably fine for the IMSAI I/O cards I saw, but perhaps high for the other "no name", i.e. I didn't recognize the name, cards that looked like disk controllers. I did see a DigiLogic unit that appeared to be some type of logic analysis unit, an Atari 400, and the usual collection of early Mac and IBM stuff, but I wasn't interested so I didn't check prices. From william at ans.net Sat Jan 31 19:57:35 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: eBay and online auctions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 1) They're hardly original, which may bother some people The reason for using FPGAs (or whatever) is good if you can not find a donor machine. > 2) You'll probably have to make up a kludge-board to get the power pins > and clock inputs in the right places. Doing that for a chip with pins on > a 0.5mm spacing will be interesting to say the least. I did not say it would be _easy_. Anyway, many FPGAs are available in the same styles of packages. > 3) Remember you probably don't have complete timing specs of the chip > you're trying to replace. You may not even have a functional spec. Trying > to design a replacement will be interesting... Incredibly hard today, perhaps easy in the future. Envision a logic analysis program that one could clip on a working chip (from another machine, obviously) that would think a while then spit out several hundred pages of HDL describing what it saw. > There's a chip in my HP Omnigo made by Vadem. It's a complete PC/XT apart > from the memory (but including the CPU, DMA, interrupt controller, serial > port, keyboard interface, parallel port, etc) together with an LCD > controller. Trying to emulate _that_ in an FPGA would be an interesting > task, even with the data sheet (which I have, all 230 pages of it). In ten years, what will FPGA densities be like? Probably way beyond what they are now. How about core sets that could be dropped into (or added to) FPGAs? The Z80 still lives in this fashion, with gate arrays, and probably will continue to for ten more years. William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 31 20:30:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:38 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ OS Message-ID: <199802010230.AA08991@world.std.com> I just thought I'd give yous guys a sneak peek of some of the things I am working on... The Vintage Computer Festival v2.0 - the continuation of the legacy! ;) This year's show will be bigger and better than the first. More vendors, a bigger exhibition, more great speakers and workshops, more more more! Tentatively scheduled for late summer. Keep your eyes open for further announcements. The First Vintage Computer Festival Auction - you won't want to miss this. There will be a bunch of incredible stuff auctioned off this spring to help fund VCF 2.0. Check the VCF web page (www.siconic.com/vcf) this May for details. A new & improved VCF web-site. Thanks to TCI's cable modem service, I'll be hosting my own internet services. Among other things, I will launch a vintage computer software archive. Online history, trivia, interviews with industry legends, a comprehensive vintage computer gallery, and a comprehensive list of links to other vintage computer sites on the web. This will become the one-stop shop for vintage computing. The Vintage Computer Collector & Trader Web BBS. This will be a BBS as was discussed a couple weeks ago in the discussion. It will provide two services. First, it will offer free advertising for those wanting to buy/sell/trade vintage computer hardware, software, literature, etc. Second, it will provide a registry for those wanting to network with other collectors around the country. Post a message describing what you want and how much you're willing to pay. Other collectors around the country scour their local flea markets, thrift stores and salvage yards looking for your requests. You work out the final details with each other. Automatic database management insures that requests stay current. Stale requests get removed automatically. The Vintage Computer Software Archives - the plan is for an FTP site with all manner of software archives for all platforms: CP/M, DOS, Unix, microcomputers (Apple, Atari, Commodore, TI, Radio Shack, etc.), mini-computers (DEC, Data General, Sun, IBM, etc.), mainframes...whatever is legal to archive and make publicly available will be there. The archived equivalents of disks, magnetic tapes, paper tapes, punch cards, whatever, will be made available for download. ALL THIS AND SO MUCH MORE! A VERITABLE NERD EXTRAVAGANZA TO SATISFY YOUR VINTAGE COMPUTER HUNGER! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From cad at gamewood.net Fri Jan 30 18:20:24 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:40 2005 Subject: WANG WLTC up for trade References: <199809302150.RAA24063@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <34D26E48.7006@gamewood.net> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > Hello everybody. > > I have a WANG WLTC laptop computer (circa 1980's). I do not want to sell > it for cash, but I'd be willing to trade it for another unusual > portable/laptop. > > Here's some specs on it: > > -NEC V30 (8086) processor > -10MB Winchester Disk > -External Centronics-type SCSI port (HD is also SCSI) > -Built-in thermal printer, with roll/cut sheet capabilities > -512K RAM > -RS232-C Serial port > > If you're interested in it, email me, and I can send you more info and/or a > picture of it. > > There is, however, a problem with the internal (regulating/switching) power > supply. It runs the computer, but keeps blowing a capacitor. It also > needs an external P/S and battery. The battery is 10 sub-cells (with a > resistor - I have a schematic). A Tyco 20VDC racing transformer (the kind > for the little car/track sets) will run it. > > I had an offer to trade it for an IBM PC-Radio, but I never got a reply. > If anyone has one of these, or any other odd or unusual laptops/portables, > and would be willing to trade, let me know. > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 Hi Jason: This is just a guess, but I think that the 'blown capacitor' problem is directly related to the 'TYCO' power supply. It's output IS going to be _very_ noisy, when compared to computer grade supplies. The peak voltage is probably what's killing things. I would look for an 18v supply. Chuck From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sat Jan 31 22:33:45 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:41 2005 Subject: Parallel ports References: <3.0.16.19980130184150.75c7c60a@ricochet.net> <34d35b35.4839716@mail.swbell.net> Message-ID: <34D3FB29.1CCC@digiweb.com> Barry Peterson wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:20:22 -0600 (CST), you said: > > >At 02:39 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>> Have you ever seen a Zenith "MiniSport"? Uses 2" floppies? I found > >[...] > >>do its upload and you've got at least one disk, you can probably > >>(don't count on it, but probably) attach a parallel Zip drive). > > > >Question: when did parallel ports become bi-directional (i.e., useable for > >zip drives and such)? > > I thought they always were bi-directional on IBM-compats. I've run > Laplink on almost every PC I've ever owned. Not quite. There are two ways of getting bidirectional data transfers out of a parallel port. The first which will work on any compatible is to use the normal data lines for output and the status lines for input. This limits the speeed since only 4 bits at a time can be read. Later implementations of the parallel port allowed full 8 bit bidirectional transfers on the data lines, providing a higher possible data rate. It is my understanding that most (older) software can work in either of the two modes. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From adam at merlin.net.au Sat Jan 31 10:46:17 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (adam@merlin.net.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:31:42 2005 Subject: C-64c probs Message-ID: <199802011545.CAA24515@arthur.merlin.net.au> >At 10:02 AM 2/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>Assuming the drive's device number has not been changed from eight, then the >>correct command is LOAD "*", 8, 1 > >What's the differenct between "$" and "*"? I've seen both used in this >context. How does one change a device number? I'm not Commodore expert. The >only other Commodore product I've had is a C-16, and that seems like ages >ago. "$" loads the file directory from the disk, and you use "list" to see what files are on it. "*" loads the first program on the disk, and I assume the ,1 is to either load an assembly program, or to automatically run the file once loaded. The ,8 is the device number - thus try, say, ,9. :) At least this is as far as my memory goes. Adam. From pdp-11 at swbell.net Thu Jan 1 05:36:16 1998 From: pdp-11 at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:56:39 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34 & RK05 Questions Message-ID: <000701bd16a9$79747000$99713ed8@compaq> I am getting my PDP-11/34 and my RK05 disk drives and packs tommorrow, and I have a few questions.They have have been in storage for years, and, although they have been kept dry, they are probably dusty. Can anyone tell me how to clean the drives and the disk packs before I use them? Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980101/ae3b16ac/attachment.html From pdp-11 at swbell.net Tue Jan 13 00:21:50 1998 From: pdp-11 at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:20 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Message-ID: <005501bd1feb$897ba7c0$83703ed8@compaq> >Also, if anyone wants one of these things, $10 plus shipping. The >condition >is unknown since I haven't fired them up ... and they don't include >keyboards :). Do you know how much shipping will be?